Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35931

 1                           Monday, 25 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             General, you may be seated.  For the record, I note that

 8     Mr. Krstic, who has been subpoenaed by the Chamber to testify in this

 9     case and his counsel, Mr. Visnjic, are present in this courtroom.

10             General Krstic, during the hearing of 21st of March, 2013, the

11     Chamber denied your request for reconsideration of its oral ruling of

12     13th of March, in which you were ultimately ordered to testify in this

13     case today.  I instructed the Registry to communicate this ruling to you

14     and your counsel and I take it you have been duly notified, Mr. Krstic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have been notified.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Krstic, the Chamber is going to ask you one last

17     time whether you are willing to testify today, but before it does so I

18     wish to make sure once more that you fully understand the potential

19     consequences resulting from your refusal to comply with the Chamber's

20     order.  Mr. Krstic, are you aware of such consequences and has your

21     counsel fully explained to you about them?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm aware of all the

23     consequences and also my counsel has explained fully what the

24     consequences may be.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Krstic, I will now ask you one last time if

Page 35932

 1     you maintain your refusal to testify?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For reasons that you are aware of,

 3     I have not changed my position and I will not testify in these

 4     proceedings.  I simply cannot do anything that would go against my

 5     health.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Krstic, the Chamber will --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, before your

 8     decision may I be heard?

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just for the record and for the

12     benefit of the witness and his counsel, I would like to say that I

13     understand his position but I have three questions that I can put only to

14     this witness and nobody else:  Did the two of us plan to kill the

15     prisoners?  Was I informed?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, there's no point you repeat your

17     position.  It does not mean you are withdrawing your motion to subpoena

18     the witness?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE KWON:  So we will not entertain your submission at this

21     moment, Mr. Karadzic.

22             Mr. Krstic, the Chamber will proceed to issue an order in lieu of

23     indictment in due course and will schedule a hearing date for an initial

24     appearance at which you will be asked to enter into a plea of guilty or

25     not guilty.  You may be excused, General.

Page 35933

 1             Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So next witness is Mr. Vucurevic?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I believe that's correct, Mr. President.  We'll need

 5     a little time to regroup and I think Mr. Robinson has to come in so this

 6     is a --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we break for five minutes?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Maybe ten would be a little better I think.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll break for ten minutes.

10                           --- Break taken at 9.10 a.m.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12                           --- On resuming at 9.23 a.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

14     please.

15             Mr. Vucurevic, do you hear me in the language you understand?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Would you make the solemn declaration, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  BOZIDAR VUCUREVIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Vucurevic.  Please be seated and make

23     yourself comfortable.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Vucurevic, I

Page 35934

 1     must draw your attention to a certain rule of procedure and evidence that

 2     we have here at the international Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under

 3     this rule you may object to answering any questions from Mr. Karadzic,

 4     the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer

 5     might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this context

 6     "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an admission of

 7     guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might provide

 8     evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.  However,

 9     should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

10     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

11     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

12     that situation the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

13     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

14     against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false

15     testimony.  Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Vucurevic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much everything.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Vucurevic.

18             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

20     Good morning to everybody.

21                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vucurevic.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   I must ask you, like all the other witnesses who speak Serbian,

25     that you and I should make pauses between questions and answers, and I

Page 35935

 1     would also like to ask you to articulate in order to make it possible for

 2     the interpreters to interpret everything and for the record to be clear.

 3        A.   I'll do my best.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.  I provided a statement to your Defence team,

 6     primarily to Mr. Sladojevic, who represents you, and I had further

 7     contacts with your Defence team.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   Not at all.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I believe that

11     we cannot call up the witness's statement.  Although we handed it over on

12     Friday, it has not been uploaded yet because I cannot upload documents

13     from my room, whereas the Prosecutor can do that at any moment and now we

14     are facing a problem.  However, I would kindly ask the Registry to

15     provide Mr. Vucurevic with his hard copy statement, and for the rest of

16     the participants I would like to bear with us while we're waiting for

17     this statement to be uploaded in the system.  If it is in e-court, which

18     yes it is, it is in e-court now, it is 1D7948.  Can the English version

19     also be uploaded and can the Serbian version please be zoomed in.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not entirely sure I understand what the accused

23     is referring to.  As far as I'm aware, the intended statement is in

24     e-court and has been for some time, so I don't know if we're referring to

25     another statement or if this is a complaint about something different.

Page 35936

 1     But the -- I printed out that -- the statement that I understand is to be

 2     tendered.  So if there's another statement that hasn't been uploaded, I'd

 3     like to know about it.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, the statement that

 5     Dr. Karadzic is referring to is the final witness statement that was

 6     prepared on Friday and sent by e-mail to Mr. Tieger as well as the

 7     Chamber.  So there was an earlier version of that statement that was also

 8     in e-court, but the one that we're referring to is the one that

 9     accompanies the revised Rule 92 ter package.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And that is not uploaded on e-court unfortunately

11     yet?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm told that it's now been uploaded.

13     Mr. President, we addressed this a few times before and recently sent

14     another letter to the Registrar.  The problem is that when we upload

15     something into e-court, it requires Registry personnel to also release it

16     before it can be shared with the participants, unlike the Prosecution who

17     is able to upload directly without the intervention of Registry

18     personnel.  So we've tried to call this inequity to the relevant

19     authorities, but we haven't been able to solve that problem yet.  The

20     Registry personnel don't come in on the weekends and that's why we have

21     this problem on Monday mornings.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  But, Mr. Tieger, you're confident

24     that --

25             MR. TIEGER:  That explanation --

Page 35937

 1             JUDGE KWON:  -- what you have with you is now what is being

 2     tendered?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, that explanation suffices.  Thanks to all.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, can you see your statement in front of you on the

 8     screen?

 9        A.   Yes.  Of course it's not in my language, therefore I don't

10     understand it.

11        Q.   But do you have a hard copy in front of you?

12        A.   Yes, I do, and I think that will be sufficient.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Vucurevic, do you not see your

14     document -- your statement in your language on the left part of your

15     monitor?  Do you not see it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in my mother tongue -- oh, I'm

17     sorry, sorry, sorry.  Can you please turn the volume on a bit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you hear me well now, Mr. Vucurevic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can hear you well.

20             Yes, this is in my mother tongue and I'm reading it and

21     understanding it.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read this statement and have you signed it?

24        A.   Yes, I have, and I confirm what I said.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 35938

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

 2     last page so that he can identify his signature.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Is this your signature?

 5        A.   Yes, this is my signature and the date.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said

 7     to the Defence team?

 8        A.   Yes, Mr. President, completely it reflects what I said.  I'm

 9     talking about what you can see on the screen.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put today live the same questions that

11     were asked of you at that time, would your answers essentially be the

12     same?

13        A.   Mr. President, there is only one truth and all I can do is to

14     repeat the truth.

15        Q.   Does that mean that you would provide basically exactly the same

16     answers?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   You're welcome.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

21     92 ter together with the package.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, there are 26 associated exhibits

23     being offered with this witness, nine of which were not on our

24     Rule 65 ter list and I would ask permission to have those added to the

25     list as we didn't have them at the time that the original interview was

Page 35939

 1     conducted and the list was filed.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Should I hear from you, Mr. Tieger?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Well, a couple of matters arise.  First of all, I

 4     noted the -- that there was reference to two intercepted telephone

 5     conversations that did not involve this witness that I think run afoul of

 6     the Court's previous guidance, so those needed to be noted and I think

 7     those are found at pages 15 and 16 of the statement, 1D5685 and 1D5684.

 8     In addition, I believe this may have been noted in Mr. Robinson's e-mail

 9     or at least alluded to, but 1D -- oppose 1D07093 contains in part a

10     previously admitted exhibit, which is found at D00471, so one way or

11     another that logistical issue needs to be addressed.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, 1D --

13             MR. TIEGER:  07093.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Is it being tendered at all?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

17             JUDGE KWON:  You do not have any objection with respect to the

18     statement itself?

19             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  There are certain documents about which there is no

22     English translations.  For example, do we have English translation for

23     1D7096?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm going to check my e-court, but I believe that

25     all of these have been translated but I'll check.

Page 35940

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I wasn't of sufficient assistance to the Court.  I

 2     had previously noted the existence of two -- at least two documents for

 3     which there was no English translation.  I was going to note those, but

 4     first I wanted to check and see if they had been belatedly uploaded.  I

 5     didn't find them, but I don't have my list with me and that's why I

 6     didn't allude to them when the Court asked and I apologise for that, but

 7     it appears the Court is well-informed on the issue.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  We do have the English translation in our e-court,

 9     but apparently it hasn't made its way to the rest of you.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Among the associated exhibits tendered, we'll not

12     admit two intercepted conversations referred to by Mr. Tieger.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I play them for the purpose of

14     authenticating the voices of the participants?

15             JUDGE KWON:  I would like you to consult with Mr. Robinson how to

16     proceed on your part with respect to those intercepts.  There are certain

17     documents the Chamber may raise some concerns, but for the sake of time

18     the -- all the other associated exhibits will be admitted and be given

19     numbers in due course.

20             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I'm going to read

22     brief summary of Mr. Bozidar Vucurevic's statement in English.

23             [In English] Bozidar Vucurevic was born on 14th of October, 1936,

24     in Zubci near Trebinje.  In 1990 he was elected as a member of the

25     Main Board of the SDS, established in response to the formation of the

Page 35941

 1     HDZ and SDA.  In this capacity, Bozidar Vucurevic did his utmost to

 2     ensure that the minority people in the region were not mistreated.  His

 3     action in protecting the non-Serbian population and preventing ethnic

 4     clashes were praised by both Momcilo Krajisnik and Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

 5             In 1992 Mr. Bozidar Vucurevic became president of the

 6     Crisis Staff of the Trebinje municipality, where he previously was

 7     president of the municipality, and a Crisis Staff was formed that at

 8     least some kind of government would be operational once clashes broke out

 9     with the exclusive purpose of protecting the civilian population.  Each

10     municipality functioned as a separate unit.  There were no instructions

11     from the party leaderships whatsoever.  Dr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik

12     could not have influenced the work of the Crisis Staff even if they had

13     wished to.  The military leadership frequently ignored Dr. Karadzic's

14     directives.  Herzegovina in particular, given the separation in both

15     territory and communications, operated quite independently.  Dr. Karadzic

16     did ensure a clear directive that the civilian population must not be

17     maltreated and that it was necessary to abide by provisions of

18     international humanitarian law.

19             In 1991 the mobilisation of the JNA was carried out by the newly

20     formed Trebinje military department, an organ comprised of two Muslims

21     and a Croat and none of the Serbs.  Following this, when Muslims asked to

22     leave the JNA or the municipality of Trebinje all together, this request

23     was granted provided they provided a certificate showing that they had

24     returned their weapons and equipment.  No conditions were required for

25     civilians.  There was no forcible transfer of Muslims from Trebinje.

Page 35942

 1     Only SDA party forced individuals to leave with the aim of provoking a

 2     conflict between Muslims and Serbs.  Bozidar Vucurevic nonetheless gave

 3     the order to secure the civilian convoy moving out of Trebinje in order

 4     to help those people.

 5             Dr. Karadzic and Bozidar Vucurevic were concerned that all people

 6     in the area were treated equally regardless of their ethnicity.

 7     Bozidar Vucurevic often had meetings with Muslim authorities in an

 8     attempt to develop an atmosphere of tolerance and reconciliation.

 9     Dr. Karadzic often said in private conversations between the two that

10     clashes needed to be prevented especially where Serbs were in the

11     majority so that minority population would not feel threatened.  He also

12     urged that the leadership in the municipalities be composed of people who

13     were honest and levelheaded who did not contribute to the rise of

14     tensions between the people.

15             In late 1992 an armed paramilitary group took some areas of

16     Trebinje by force.  Bozidar Vucurevic wrote an order to remove the group

17     by force if necessary, after which he was personally threatened.  The

18     group eventually left the area in response to Bozidar Vucurevic's

19     actions.  The authorities in the municipality generally used all the

20     available means to prevent crime, regardless of the perpetrators or the

21     injured parties.

22             [Interpretation] Now, this was a brief summary.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now I would like to ask Mr. Vucurevic to listen to an intercept

25     and then to identify the collocutors.

Page 35943

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please play 1D05685 from

 2     0:20 to 2 minutes 50.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that we do not have the

 4     transcript of the intercept.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it seems that it would be impossible

 6     for the Chamber to hear the transcript unless it was provided to the

 7     interpreters.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a translation, so could we

 9     please have it on the screens even though we are going to listen only to

10     the audio recording.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it's possible, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have it translated.  Is there a

13     way to see it or to have it sent to the booth?

14             JUDGE KWON:  If you have a print-out there's no difficulty on the

15     part of the Registry to provide it [overlapping speakers] --

16             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President.  I understand that either

17     Mr. Doraiswamy or Mr. Reid can print it out immediately if that's the

18     preference.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Probably the Defence is going to play two intercepts

20     I take it.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Can we also have 1D05684.  We

22     also wanted the witness to identify the collocutors.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  But I will leave it to the parties, in particular to

25     the Defence, to play it and to tender the document.

Page 35944

 1             Mr. Robinson, has the Chamber ever admitted intercept when

 2     witness confirms the voice of one of the interlocutors?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  I believe in those cases you've always admitted --

 4     marked them for identification subject to the testimony of the intercept

 5     operator.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Or the interlocutor?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  So --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think we have -- we admitted them in full?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  So these two we would ask you to

10     mark them for identification and we will try to bring the intercept

11     operators to include them when we have them testify.

12             JUDGE KWON:  If that is the case, I take it that the Prosecution

13     would have no objection to marking them for identification, as part of

14     associated exhibit?

15             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.  I think that was done previously

16     and in any event I think it would make sense.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Then that would resolve everything.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  I think Dr. Karadzic actually wanted to play these

19     two intercepts.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  The Chamber also would like to hear.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we start then,

22     please.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24                           [Intercept played]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We need to find the

Page 35945

 1     reference in the transcript.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We stop there.  We play again.  The

 3     interpreters want to know the reference, what part of the transcript you

 4     are referring to?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Towards the end of page 1, the

 6     fourth intervention from the bottom in the Serbian.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have it in English.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  What was offered to the interpreters is the English

 9     version.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The fourth from the bottom in the

11     English version too on page 1.  The first conversation of the 24th of May

12     between Radovan Karadzic and an unidentified male person.

13                           [Intercept played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

15             "Unknown male person:  I didn't know that it was such a meeting.

16     I was just looking ... and Saso here ...

17             "Radovan Karadzic:  Who ... well ... these Muslims, they were

18     panicking so we ... them ...

19             "Unknown male person:  Where were they from?

20             "Radovan Karadzic:  Ah ... they were ... I don't know whether

21     they were from Ljubinje and Stolac but there were some from ... Gacko,

22     Bileca, and Trebinje.

23             "Unknown male person:  Mm-hmm.

24             "Radovan Karadzic:  Go on, please.  Everyone needs to tell them

25     over there that the Serbs have nothing against them, that the Serbs ...

Page 35946

 1     only attitude towards Ustashas ...  go on ...

 2             "Unknown male person: ... they said on the radio at four and I

 3     spoke for two and a half minutes exactly about that.  He asked me about

 4     the political situation.  I told Vatric that I was terribly sorry that

 5     they once again managed to direct ... to throw a bone of contention

 6     between the Serbs and the Muslims even though there is no ... even though

 7     everyone can see that these are, in fact, conflict between the Serbs and

 8     the Croats.

 9             "Radovan Karadzic:  Yes, yes.

10             "Unknown male person:  They have no reason ... it's the Muslim

11     Bosniak Organisation that's pushing ...

12             "Radovan Karadzic:  The MBO is pushing, huh?

13             "Unknown male person:  Yes, only the MBO.  There was a headline

14     in the "Oslobodjenje" today that said, 'Three more trucks' ... and such

15     ugly, stupid things.  Were it not ...

16             "Radovan Karadzic:  Yes.

17             "Unknown male person:  They won't broadcast that.  We had a

18     meeting here with their hosts and talked about trust and that is the

19     worst-case scenario.  We'll rely on each other ... there's no such news

20     on the ...

21             "Radovan Karadzic:  All right, all right.  Please call Bozo and

22     tell him the same so that ... he can call them immediately tonight or

23     tomorrow.  Nikola is going to Bileca tomorrow afternoon too ...

24             "Unknown male person:  Mm-hmm.

25             "Radovan Karadzic:  He should call them, sit down with them, and

Page 35947

 1     tell them not to worry because they don't have ... just tell us who's

 2     threatening you and we'll fucking sort them out ...

 3             "Unknown male person:  Yes, yes.

 4             "Radovan Karadzic:  Nobody may threaten them.  They must pay a

 5     fine and they must know that neighbours or neighbourly arguments will not

 6     resolve the Yugoslav crisis ...

 7             "Unknown male person:  Mm-hmm.

 8             "Radovan Karadzic:  It will be resolved by political means.  We

 9     had discussions with Izetbegovic and Kljuic today as well.  The first

10     thing we agreed on is that we don't want a civil war.

11             "Unknown male person:  Mm-hmm.

12             "Radovan Karadzic:  And we ... we don't want a civil war, we

13     don't want a civil war in Bosnia.

14             "Unknown male person:  Yes, yes.

15             "Radovan Karadzic:  And all the other options can be considered

16     and we ... we'll agree about every option, but we don't want a civil war.

17             "Unknown male person:  Yes, yes ...

18             "Radovan Karadzic:  And the neighbours need to know that their

19     blood will not resolve anything but just makes -- make matters worse,

20     more complicated.

21             "Unknown male person:  Yes, yes, yes.

22             "Radovan Karadzic:  Therefore, err ...Danilo, Danilo/talking to

23     someone in the room/I keep forgetting something.  Err, therefore, please

24     make sure they feel fine...

25             "Unknown male person:  Excellent ...

Page 35948

 1             "Radovan Karadzic:  It's very important, that they ...

 2             "Unknown male person:  ... initiate a meeting, if not tomorrow

 3     then the day after with this ... again with this man here ...

 4             "Radovan Karadzic:  Yes, yes ...

 5             "Unknown male person:  I'll see that I personally ... if I can,

 6     this ...

 7             "Radovan Karadzic:  Very well.

 8             "Unknown male person:  To help them and to change their mind

 9     about ...

10             "Radovan Karadzic:  Go on, please and ... and ...

11             "Unknown male person: ... and this on the news ... looking at

12     that guard in Zagreb.

13             "Radovan Karadzic:  What happened with the guard in Zagreb?

14             "Unknown male person:  It was a troop review.  Tudjman was

15     reviewing the troops and TV Belgrade broadcast the whole thing, how there

16     was the 1st Brigade, 2nd, 3rd, they, they ... the war flags ..."

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, did you recognise the interlocutor, the person who

20     talked to me in this conversation?

21        A.   Mr. President, I carefully listened to it, I recognised both

22     participants in the conversation.  You are on one end of the line,

23     Mr. President, and on the other there is Dusan Kozic who was from

24     Ljubinje.  He was a deputy in the People's Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina

25     and later on in the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska.

Page 35949

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2        A.   You're welcome.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us something about the contents of this intercept.

 4     Is the topic familiar to you and how?  Tell us something about the topic.

 5        A.   May I?  Yes, I am familiar with it.  That conversation was

 6     reflected, such policies, such positions that could be heard from you as

 7     of the moment the SDS was established and until the end of the war.

 8     There was always discussion about avoiding clashes, initiating talks, and

 9     if we must go our separate ways, then that it should be done in a

10     peaceful way.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can we next listen to 1D05684 now from the third

12     minute to 4 minutes and 20, and I'll tell you what page that is in the

13     English transcript.  Actually, we'll start with 1 minute, 40 seconds.

14                           [Intercept played]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have time

16     reference on the transcript.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is page 3 in the English towards

18     the bottom, Mulic -- Delalic.

19                           [Intercept played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

21             "Radovan Karadzic:  Tell me ...

22             "Vlado Kovacevic:  Well, it's about the rally and Delalic.

23             "Radovan Karadzic:  Who is Delalic?

24             "Kovacevic:  Delalic is the proposed candidate for the SUP

25     commander.

Page 35950

 1             "Karadzic:  Oh, I see.

 2             "Kovacevic:  For the militia commander.

 3             "Karadzic:  The militia commander.

 4             "Kovacevic:  Yes, you know the story very well recently we

 5     have ... regarding this candidate ...

 6             "Karadzic:  Yes.

 7             "Kovacevic: ... but the tensions are higher up.  It looks they

 8     could rise even more and we are not sure how it would end up.

 9             "Karadzic:  Because of Delalic?

10             "Kovacevic:  Yes.

11             "Karadzic:  I've just been at the meeting with the Muslims from

12     eastern Herzegovina and Nikola Koljevic and Alija Izetbegovic.  They

13     spent two hours together.

14             "Kovacevic:  Yes.

15             "Karadzic:  I got in for 15 to 20 minutes and talked to them.

16     They are afraid and say that you haven't given them anything in the

17     municipality there.

18             "Kovacevic:  We haven't?  Well, the negotiations between our

19     parties are ongoing and I don't think they have a right to say so.

20             "Karadzic:  Yes, yes.

21             "Kovacevic: ... it means they got what they were supposed to get,

22     but they should also know it can't be as it used to be.

23             Karadzic:  Yes, please.  See it with them and call Zepinic

24     regarding that ... tell them not to be worried because Serbs will not do

25     anything.  Serbs are careful only with the Ustasha.  Tell them that.

Page 35951

 1             "Kovacevic:  Of course, we are doing that ...

 2             " Karadzic:  Please organise a meeting with the SDA tonight.

 3     Tell them not to be worried and we guarantee that nothing will happen to

 4     the Muslims in eastern Herzegovina.  Our only concern is the Ustashas.

 5     But you can tell them that we guarantee nothing will happen to them.  Do

 6     that tonight.

 7             "Kovacevic:  Okay.  We planned to do that tomorrow morning.

 8             "Karadzic:  Okay.  Anyone -- announce it tonight and meet

 9     tomorrow morning and issue some kind of joint statement, that eastern

10     Herzegovina - you can mention Gacko specifically - will be peaceful, that

11     all the issues be solved democratically, and that there is no danger of a

12     conflict.  This is very important to convince Muslims that we have

13     nothing against them.

14             "Kovacevic:  Okay.  Thanks.  Would you mind talking to the mayor

15     for a second?

16             "Karadzic:  No.

17             "Kovacevic:  Have a nice day!

18             "Karadzic:  You too."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Starting from 4 minutes, 20 seconds

20     and onwards.

21                            [Intercept played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

23             "Karadzic:  Fine, thanks God.  A lot of work but I can manage ...

24             "Mandic:  Your health?

25             Karadzic:  It's good.  Thanks God ...

Page 35952

 1             "Mandic:  So it's okay.  What's up?

 2             "Karadzic:  Well, I've just talked to the Muslims from eastern

 3     Herzegovina.  They are panicking and talking about Chetniks.  I told them

 4     that those Nemanjic badges are not Chetnik cockades.  You should explain

 5     to them that those are not Chetnik cockades and please meet them and

 6     convince them that the Muslims are not endangered.

 7             "Mandic:  Well, we've had meetings between the parties over

 8     there.

 9             "Karadzic:  Okay.  But they have been there, some people from

10     Gacko too.  Tonight they complained of not getting any position in the

11     government.  I told them that the Muslims in Gacko should get the same as

12     Serbs in Gorazde.

13             "Mandic:  They got more than the Serbs in Gorazde.

14             "Karadzic:  So tell them that.  Make it clear so they wouldn't be

15     able to say that they got less.

16             "Mandic:  Well, it's their policy.

17             "Karadzic:  I know.  But still make this clear for them somehow

18     and publicise it together.  Say there is no danger for them whatsoever.

19             "Mandic:  Okay, but I know ... the parties had talks with them.

20             "Karadzic:  Okay, okay.

21             "Mandic:  It will be on radio news now.

22             "Karadzic:  Pardon?

23             "Mandic:  The announcement will be on the radio too.

24             "Karadzic:  Yes, yes.  Meet them tonight or tomorrow and explain

25     that the Serbs in eastern Herzegovina could only be concerned for an

Page 35953

 1     attack of the Ustasha and that regarding Muslims there will be no

 2     problems.

 3             "Mandic:  I told them that already.

 4             "Karadzic:  Okay.  But issue an announcement too."

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I just wanted to note that during the playing of

 7     that intercept the witness was quite actively perusing a binder that's in

 8     front of him.  I'm guessing that that contains certain exhibits and maybe

 9     he was looking for this particular document, but I think we needed to

10     know at the outset what that binder is and the witness should be

11     cautioned about referring to it without alerting the parties to the need

12     to do so.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vucurevic, you heard what Mr. Tieger has just

14     said.  Could you kindly explain what you are looking at at the moment.

15     What that binder you have with you is about.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have brought

17     some papers, i.e., some documents from Trebinje.  Those are the documents

18     that I have kept from those retched war times.  I've just been perusing

19     the binder to see if I've got everything and to get my bearings among all

20     those documents that I have.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall I leave it at that or, Mr. Tieger, would you

22     like to take a look at those documents?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Well, yeah, at some point I want to take a look at

24     it.  I think for the moment the best thing to do would simply -- since

25     they, in fact, are not either his statement or the exhibits associated

Page 35954

 1     with that which would have been a potentially appropriate reference tool.

 2     So I think the witness should be cautioned not to refer to that unless

 3     there is some very specific need that he identifies in advance and then

 4     we can deal with it in the circumstances that arise at that point.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vucurevic, I take it you have understood

 6     Mr. Tieger's point so that I don't need to repeat it.  But if you need to

 7     take a look at those documents if you could let us know in advance.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Actually, there is a

 9     key document that I have brought with me.  I would like to show it to you

10     later, so for a moment I was concerned about the whereabouts of that

11     document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, did you recognise the two interlocutors from Gacko

16     as you were listening to the second intercept?

17        A.   Yes.  I recognised one very convincingly.  On the one hand we

18     have Mr. President and on the other end of the line there was

19     Vlado Kovacevic, an MP in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

20     later on he was an MP in the Assembly of Republika Srpska.  I don't know

21     Mandic that well.  I don't know what his position was at the time, but I

22     know him by sight and I think that I recognised his voice.  He's from

23     Gacko.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us something about the topic that we

25     discussed and to what extent are you familiar with the topic in view of

Page 35955

 1     the fact that you were a prominent leader not only in east Herzegovina

 2     but elsewhere as well but particularly in eastern Herzegovina?

 3        A.   I'm absolutely familiar with the topic because I was present and

 4     I was the president of the municipality of Trebinje, and that was

 5     actually the principal municipality in eastern Herzegovina settled by a

 6     majority Serbian population.  Our meetings were numerous.  Our

 7     discussions were lengthy and extensive, and so on and so forth.  I can

 8     confirm and I can vouch for that.  I can also prove based on the evidence

 9     that I have that everything was done for the minority population to leave

10     Herzegovina in peace in order to avoid interethnic conflicts, and there

11     were no such conflicts in Trebinje.

12             When the Muslims received instructions from the top echelons of

13     the SDA - and I have documents on my hands that they would be moving out

14     from Trebinje - I believe that the problem arose and the problem was the

15     fact that in the Trebinje war brigade there were 412 Muslims who are now

16     referred to as Bosniaks.  When the Yugoslav People's Army left and they

17     had started the war with Croatian paramilitaries on the border between

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, then the Muslim and Croat forces

19     joined forces.  We were concerned.

20             And then the Muslims who were present in the Serbian army were

21     ordered to leave the units because Alija Izetbegovic and the top echelons

22     of the SDA were not happy to see that Muslims were waging a war against

23     Muslims.  At that time I decided that everybody who wanted a passport

24     should apply for it and that they would be issued with a passport so that

25     they could travel freely and leave the territory.  Those who applied for

Page 35956

 1     passes - and I have hundreds of such requests - were issued with passes

 2     in the following way:  Those who were civilians, they would apply for a

 3     pass and they would get a letter of confirmation that they could travel.

 4     I apologise.  Those who were soldiers had to provide a confirmation that

 5     they had returned the equipment and the uniforms that they had been

 6     issued with.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vucurevic.  I would wish to tender these two

 8     intercepts into evidence and mark them for identification.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll do that.  Do we have the number for them?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Those are the numbers that --

11             JUDGE KWON:  No, I'm asking the Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI is D3171 and MFI D3172 respectively.

13     Your Honours, the 92 ter statement 1D07948 will be Exhibit D3146.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

16     questions for Mr. Vucurevic at this point in time.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

18             Mr. Robinson, para 24 -- no, wait, 25 refers to the intercept,

19     the number of which is 30233 on page 12.  Is this intercept referred to

20     in the statement elsewhere?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't believe so, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I think somewhere the statement refers to 65 ter

23     31953 or 30323, but at the moment I can't find -- locate them.  I meant

24     to ask whether they were typos or not.  If you found -- find them, please

25     come back to me.

Page 35957

 1             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I think it was at former paragraph 24.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But now they are gone?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, microphone.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  Except that the structure of the statement

 7     didn't vary much because a couple of the paragraphs were omitted and then

 8     others included.  So you would find it in that general area.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, probably I saw the previous document.  Very

10     well.

11             Mr. Vucurevic, as you have noted, your evidence in this case,

12     your evidence in chief, has been admitted in most part in writing in lieu

13     of your oral testimony, and now you will be cross-examined by the

14     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

19        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, we'll have about ten minutes before the first

20     recess, so we will be -- won't be getting too deep into the questions

21     that I have.  But before I begin, let me indicate to you that the Court

22     asks us particularly during the cross-examination exchange to be as

23     efficient as possible and asked me to focus on particular issues that I

24     wish to discuss and asks the witness to respond to those questions in the

25     most concise possible way.  So by way of example, if I ask you if you

Page 35958

 1     have read a particular book, at that point I'm only asking for a yes or

 2     no answer, not a description of the contents of that book or a

 3     description of the author and so on.  Fair enough?

 4        A.   Thank you.

 5        Q.   Your statement says on the front that you are now a pensioner and

 6     were previously -- your previous occupation was official, but as you note

 7     in paragraph 1 of your statement you became an official or came to the

 8     role of official late in life.  What was your occupation before that?

 9        A.   I spent most of my career in private business.  I got involved in

10     politics only in 1990.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thanks.

12        A.   You're welcome.

13        Q.   And you stayed in politics and in an official role until your

14     removal from the position as vice-president of the SDS by the Office of

15     the High Representative in 2004; correct?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   And even prior to that time you had been indicted for, among

18     other things, events in the Ravno municipality where 17 or more civilians

19     were killed, many houses destroyed, and civilians of Croatian nationality

20     removed to the Bileca concentration camp; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.  To a certain extent, yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Vucurevic, I want to address what you said

23     in your statement about the Muslims leaving Trebinje in paragraph 19 and

24     paragraph 24 where you assert that their departure was caused by the SDA

25     headquarters and the local Trebinje SDA and then add in paragraph 24 that

Page 35959

 1     was in order to make the negotiating position in Geneva more difficult

 2     for the Serbs.  So before we recess, I wanted to look a little more

 3     closely at what people were saying about that departure at the time.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection I'd like to call up a certain

 5     document.  I need the 65 ter for it.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MR. TIEGER:  And that's 65 ter 24834.

 8        Q.   And as that's being called up, let me point out that's an article

 9     from the independent Montenegrin newspaper, "The Monitor," dated

10     5 February, 1993.

11             JUDGE KWON:  If Mr. Reid could release it, please.

12             MR. TIEGER:  It is released, Mr. President.  There appears to be

13     further glitches.  I mean, it was released before.  Mr. Reid just looked

14     at it again, so it may be another e-court problem.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  We also don't have access to it.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Well, given the time maybe we need to --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a break?

18             MR. TIEGER:  It sounds like something we need to do and check the

19     e-court system again.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at

21     three to 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 35960

 1        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, before we recessed we were attempting to look at

 2     an article from "The Monitor," that is, the independent Montenegrin

 3     newspaper at 24834 and I think we're able to call that up now.  Now, this

 4     is an article as I mentioned before that's dated the 5th of February.

 5     And if you'll take a quick glance at the first two pages of the article,

 6     both the cover page and the first page, I think you'll be able to see

 7     quickly what the subject is about.

 8        A.   I don't have it in Serbian.

 9        Q.   You should now, sir, on the split screen.  And if we could turn

10     to the -- there you see the date and if we could turn to the second page

11     of the B/C/S.  Now -- and I'll ask you quickly to look at the pass that

12     is shown on that front page.  That is a copy depicted in this article of

13     the kinds of passes that you referred to in your statement which you or

14     the Trebinje authorities issued to departing Muslims toward the end of

15     January or beginning of February 1993; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And I think we can agree that given the date of the article, the

18     location that's described about the people who are the subject of the

19     article, and this pass, that this is an article about the -- or

20     concerning the exodus of the Trebinje Muslims to parts of Montenegro;

21     correct?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   You think this is about something entirely different?  I'm

24     suggesting to you it's about the same events you describe at, for

25     example, in paragraph 19 of your statement, that is, the departure of the

Page 35961

 1     Muslim community from Trebinje in late January and early December 1993.

 2     That's the subject matter of this article; right?

 3        A.   The subject is quite a different thing from what actually

 4     happened on the ground.  That was the era of the JNA's dominance.  Before

 5     that I wasn't able to respond to what was happening in Ravno and

 6     everything was in the hands in the GNA, and the civilian authorities were

 7     not consulted about anything.  The army had come from Montenegro just

 8     like this paper comes from Montenegro as well.

 9        Q.   Well, Mr. Vucurevic, maybe you'll understand my question a bit

10     better if I describe for you what is being discussed in the article, and

11     in it we find excerpts from precisely what people who had left Trebinje

12     were explaining to "The Monitor."  So, for example, and you should be --

13     if we scrolled down on the first page for your benefit -- and the pages

14     shown for your benefit, or actually turn to the second page, please, to

15     the next page after that.  We see various accounts by people.  For

16     example, Mr. Mujo Malohodzic describes the disarming of Muslims, the

17     burning of the mosque, threats by telephone, forcible entry of houses.

18     Another departing Muslim talks about being abused physically by the

19     police.  One person -- same person describes speaking with you and who

20     advised him that you don't need to go but I don't guarantee for anybody's

21     life.  Other people talk about the police coming and waiting to take

22     possession of their homes and so on.  And one person,

23     Mr. Adjalic [phoen], addresses the issue that is raised in your statement

24     at paragraph 19, that is, the allegation that people were leaving their

25     homes because the SDA told them to?

Page 35962

 1             And he said as you can see toward the bottom of the first column

 2     on the page that is shown:

 3             "All men not older than 60 years old were on the front for 18

 4     months at the most.  We had to shoot at Muslims and Croats."

 5             That's something you -- and I stop the quote for a second.

 6     That's something you alluded to earlier in terms of the participation of

 7     Muslims in the Herzegovina Corps.  Now I continue the quote:

 8             "Now we don't have any place in Bosnia or Croatia.  Maybe the

 9     best would be if you kill us here.  We wouldn't leave our homes and

10     riches just to come here and to sleep on floors just because of

11     Izetbegovic's politics as Bozidar Vucurevic has accused us of.  The only

12     property we have now is travel bags or garbage bags."

13             Now, these contemporaneous accounts by people who had left

14     Trebinje and shown up in Montenegro describe the pressures and force to

15     which they were subjected and also deal with the allegation that people

16     would leave their homes, their riches, their entrenched lives because of

17     a political interest.  That's the reality of the situation, isn't it,

18     Mr. Vucurevic, that the Muslims of Trebinje, many of whom as you said

19     served in the Herzegovina Corps, were not Islamic fanatics who would

20     abandon their lives simply because of the interest of some politician,

21     but instead were forced out by the pressures to which they were

22     subjected?

23        A.   No.  Everybody can make accusations but they need to provide

24     proof.  By taking over Trebinje and subjecting it to the command of the

25     1st Military District, here we have an order issued by the National

Page 35963

 1     Defence Secretariat from Belgrade, instructing us to become subordinated

 2     to the 1st Military District.  General-Lieutenant

 3     Aleksandar Mitkovski [phoen] was the one who installed a mobilisation

 4     organ in Trebinje and --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down and repeat

 6     part of the answer that we couldn't catch.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic --

 9        A.   How can I say it otherwise?  I can say either yes or no and I say

10     no, this is not correct.

11        Q.   Fine, but --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vucurevic, you were speaking too fast for the

13     interpreters to catch up, so --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It's all right.

15             The mobilisation organ --

16             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, just --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, please --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vucurevic, if you could start from

19     General Lieutenant Aleksandar Mitkovski.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, if I may, I understand the problem

21     with speed, but it also seems -- the witness also seems to be addressing

22     an entirely unrelated subject now.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So if you take up again, then.  Please put your

24     question again, then, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 35964

 1        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, I am focusing on what happened at the end of

 2     January and beginning of February 1993 when virtually the entire or at

 3     least the bulk of the Trebinje Muslim population was - as they

 4     say - forced out but certainly departed for Montenegro.  I am not asking

 5     you about the mobilisation order at a time when the JNA was still in

 6     Bosnia.  So please focus on the question.

 7             I read to you excerpts from "The Monitor" article.  People who

 8     arrived in Montenegro with garbage bags or travel bags and had left their

 9     homes completely behind and what they said about why that had happened.

10     And I put it to you that that was a more accurate account of what had

11     happened than what is contained in your statement.

12        A.   When the Municipal Board of the Party of Democratic Action

13     received an instruction from the top leadership of their party and the

14     instruction related to the people moving out of Trebinje, I received

15     about 500 Muslims in a municipal hall and there we discussed and agreed

16     the issue of safety and security.  I told them that nobody was forcing

17     them out, but that also on the other hand nobody could guarantee them

18     safety.  Why?  Because 15.400 refugees arrived in Trebinje from other

19     parts and that the Serbs became a minority.  There was an uncontrolled

20     arming of the people.  My cousin was killed by Serbs.  So I couldn't

21     guarantee his life, let alone the lives of the entire population.  They

22     were told either to remain with us or to comply with the instruction

23     issued by Alija Izetbegovic, or rather, the

24     Secretary-General Hasan Cengic.  They opted for the latter option.  They

25     sought passes to be issued to them and they asked the army to demobilise

Page 35965

 1     their men.  Whoever asked to leave was given permission with escort and

 2     complete safety.  Those who remained behind did not come into harm's way

 3     in any way whatsoever.

 4        Q.   Well, there was an investigation undertaken at the time of the

 5     events that were taking place, and I want to look at that.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  But in order to do so, Mr. President, we'll have to

 7     go into private session.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35966











11  Pages 35966-35971 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35972

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   Well, as -- this is -- this seems to implicate the book report

14     versus whether or not you read the book, guidance I provided at the

15     outset.  So I'd like to know when you claim you first found out about

16     this alleged order from the SDA Sarajevo and SDA Trebinje?

17        A.   In the afternoon when I was at home, I was called by a Muslim who

18     asked to see me somewhere but not in my home.

19        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, before -- I'm sorry, before you get to the entire

20     description, I want to -- I'm looking for a chronology so that's what I'm

21     trying to focus on.  So we could -- have seen from the previous

22     discussion that you claim to be aware of an SDA effort to urge Muslims to

23     lead -- to leave by at least early February or late January when you

24     spoke to the persons in the document we looked at in private session.

25     I'd like to know when you claim you first came into possession of the

Page 35973

 1     document from the SDA Sarajevo and the SDA Trebinje?  When was that?

 2     Early January?  Late January?  Early February?  Late February?  1993?

 3     1994?  When did you get ahold of the document?

 4        A.   Somewhat previously I believe, although I do not recall the exact

 5     date, but it's in the document and it was preserved.  I received a call

 6     from a Muslim -- actually, there were two.  One of them told me that he

 7     was a member of the Municipal Board of the SDA.  He also confessed to me

 8     that they had received instructions from Hasan Cengic, the general

 9     secretary, and that later the local Municipal Board drafted some sort of

10     order to leave Trebinje.  He had a few sheets of paper folded in his

11     jacket and he asked me to assist him to get out safely with his family as

12     well as to take his car with him.  In return, he wanted to give me the

13     papers they had received and they are part of the documentation here,

14     where it is irrefutably proven that it was done under instruction of the

15     SDA with its seat in Sarajevo and it was implemented through the

16     Municipal Board in Trebinje.

17        Q.   All right.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Let's go into private session then, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MR. TIEGER:  And I'd like to call up 65 ter 24818.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35974











11  Pages 35974-35976 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35977

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             MR. TIEGER:  And tender the previous document, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  In the future, probably after showing the document

22     in private session the questions could be put in open session.  Think

23     about the --

24             MR. TIEGER:  Will do, Mr. President, and I understand, thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it under seal.

Page 35978

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6224 under seal, Your Honours.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, it would help us to

 3     assess the relevance of these questions, and while that we don't object

 4     to the documents, to know whether the Prosecution has any dispute about

 5     the authenticity of Exhibit D471, which is the instruction from the SDA

 6     20th of January, 1993, for the Muslims to leave Trebinje, or whether it's

 7     their position that that is authentic but the Muslims ignored that order.

 8     I wonder if Mr. Tieger could tell us what the Prosecution's position is

 9     on that.

10             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not in a position to affirm its authenticity,

11     and frankly some of the circumstances that have been related during the

12     course of this morning would suggest otherwise, but insofar as Trebinje

13     is not an indictment municipality this is not a matter we've been in a

14     position to address in the detail we're going into it now.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you.

16             Mr. President, I think that's very helpful to us to note because

17     we have, as you know, filed a motion to subpoena Hasan Cengic, the author

18     of this document.  So I think that the Prosecution's position helps us

19     make that issue more clear and I appreciate Mr. Tieger addressing it

20     directly.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I think I've also addressed in private -- as long as

22     we're talking about it, if we're in private [sic] session, some of the

23     factors that make that not the most relevant matter, but anyway we can

24     deal with that later.

25        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic --

Page 35979

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 2             Yes, please proceed.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   -- I had asked you a moment ago about your characterisation of

 5     the Muslims of Trebinje not as a group of professionals, family people,

 6     normal, good people, but instead as religious fanatics leaving in

 7     lock-step with the orders of their political leadership and happily doing

 8     so, and you essentially denied that that had been the case.  I wanted to

 9     call up 65 ter 24820A at time code 7.44 through 9.17.

10             And this is a transcript in English of what you said in a lengthy

11     interview that was conducted about 20 months after the war began when you

12     were on a -- I think a epic poetry or book tour in Belgrade.  And there

13     you said the following -- speaking about the departure of the Muslims and

14     the -- your allegation that people had left because they were invited to

15     do so by Izetbegovic.  First of all, you spoke about the fact that

16     Muslims had a great deal of wealth.  How, you say?  Because these were

17     sons of beys, rich beys from the Ottoman era who had large properties,

18     who had properties by the river of the -- of Trebisnjica, large houses,

19     et cetera, et cetera.  And then you say it is -- this -- this is on

20     e-court page 3 --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page?

22             MR. TIEGER:  3, e-court page 3.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is the page?

24             MR. TIEGER:  It's on the screen at the moment.

25        Q.   "It is hard to believe," you say or you said then, "but when they

Page 35980

 1     received the message to leave, they left singing in the buses, they had

 2     left everything they had behind them carrying with them only bundles or

 3     backpacks and they were singing in buses.  That could not happen to my

 4     people.  That is an example of religious fanaticism."

 5             And you continue to say a message from Allah was mentioned there,

 6     that Allah had sent word, and you contrast that again with Serbs, that is

 7     a kind of fanaticism, et cetera.

 8             So, Mr. Vucurevic, contrary to your assertion a moment ago, you

 9     did try to depict the departure of Muslims from Trebinje as being the

10     joyous implementation of an order executed by religious fanatics; right?

11     That's how you subsequently described the event?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Do you want to hear your own words, Mr. Vucurevic?  Do you deny

14     that you said this?  Because you're on tape.

15        A.   Sir, esteemed sirs, all of those who wanted to prevent bloodshed

16     in Trebinje and who wanted to secure that Muslims left individually at

17     first and then in small groups and then in the large groups, they were

18     provided buses and escort and transportation.  That was very joyous, as

19     contrasted against the plight of Serbs in Sarajevo and elsewhere.  It was

20     all song and dance compared to other situations when people lost their

21     family, et cetera.  But we also had to appease our own people.  Fire was

22     opened on my own house and there is a record of on-site investigation.

23     It was probably done by my own Serbs because they thought I was

24     protecting Muslims.  One was not supposed to speak positively and you had

25     to count on your own people as well.  It was a skill and one needed to go

Page 35981

 1     back and forth all in order to avoid bloodshed.  That is what I actually

 2     intended to say and I'm proud of it.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that excerpt, Mr. President.  There will be

 4     some more as well.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  You are tendering only this part of the transcript

 6     or are you also tendering the clip -- is it video or the audio?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, I think both would be fine.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But whether you can identify them.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah.  I mean, this transcript and I'm happy to

10     tender the -- I think it's useful to tender the excerpt as well.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

12             Any objection?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6225, Your Honours.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   All right.  I want to move on to another subject in the interests

18     of time, sir.  Now, you've spoken about the police of Trebinje

19     particularly in 1993 a number of times, and of course it is the police

20     who were supposed to be protecting the Muslims of Trebinje; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I want to turn to 1D25798.  That probably has an exhibit number

23     by now and I don't have the corresponding reference, but it was the

24     previous 65 ter number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D3162, Your Honours.

Page 35982

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   And I'd like to turn to page 10 of the English and that would be

 3     page -- it should be the same in the B/C/S.  And this is another

 4     conversation you had with Mr. Karadzic.  The two of you were talking and

 5     he says to you:

 6             "Bozo I am," this is at the bottom of page 10 in the English and

 7     toward the middle of the page 10 in the B/C/S.

 8             "Bozo, I am, I am.  I do not know how this Borkovic works for

 9     you.  I don't think he is not working well?"

10             And you say:

11             "No, no, he is serious."

12             Mr. Karadzic says:

13             "Can you tell him -- I mean, things have moved on too far.  We

14     will have complete control over things.  Will he be loyal or will he not

15     be?"

16             And then you go on to describe how he lost face the other day at

17     the council, that is, which -- the National Defence Council which has

18     taken on the role of the Crisis Staff.  And then the conversation

19     regarding Mr. Borkovic continues and, as we see at page 12 of the English

20     and B/C/S, Mr. Karadzic says:

21             "Does he know what time it is?  Does he know this is a historical

22     moment?"

23             And you say:

24             "Well, I believe he will have to -- he will have to get serious."

25             And Mr. Karadzic says:

Page 35983

 1             "Let that happen soon, let that be very soon because I have

 2     obtained approval for a security centre to open there.  We will receive

 3     support from some forces ..."

 4             Now, Mr. Borkovic was chief of police at the time; is that right?

 5        A.   For a very brief period of time.  Borkovic was with the police

 6     for a very brief period of time.

 7        Q.   And this conversation where Mr. Karadzic says "things have moved

 8     on too far.  We will have complete control over things" took place on the

 9     9th of January, 1992, just a few days before the extended sitting of the

10     Main and Executive Boards on 14 February 1992, which you attended and

11     which is also referenced in your statement; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  And that's -- if you recall that excerpt, that's the

14     meeting at which you spoke for some time about events in the late 1300s

15     and early 1400s in Dubrovnik where a number of dukets were exchanged or

16     not exchanged and that gave rise to your argument that Dubrovnik should

17     be disputed internationally.  Do you remember that?

18        A.   Well, there were many events.  It's hard to remember all of them,

19     so I cannot confirm that I do.

20        Q.   Well, that's contained in the -- did you not read that recently,

21     because that's contained as part of the your statement and was one of the

22     associated exhibits that were supposedly provided as part of the

23     statement that you reviewed?

24        A.   Are you saying that that was in the press?  In the press?

25        Q.   No, Mr. Vucurevic, I'm saying that you provided a statement to

Page 35984

 1     this Court.  It references that meeting and provides as an associated

 2     exhibit to that statement the remarks I just mentioned to you from the

 3     session of 14 February.  Could you -- [overlapping speakers].

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Could you let us know the para number of witness's

 5     statement?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  It was previously -- I think it's still currently in

 7     32.  It was previously in paragraph 31, I believe, but I think it's --

 8     yeah, it is 32, correct.

 9        Q.   So I take it you haven't seen that lately, Mr. Vucurevic; is that

10     right?

11        A.   [In English] No.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, let me ask you more broadly about that

13     session --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

15     The interpreter could not hear him nor could she interpret.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, they didn't hear you.  I asked you if you'd -- I

18     said you hadn't seen that lately, correct, and your answer was ... ?

19        A.   [Interpretation] I said "no."

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   You're welcome.

22        Q.   All right.  Well, at -- you did indicate in your statement,

23     Mr. Vucurevic, that you attended that session and we have evidence of

24     what happened at that session, including the fact - and this is found at

25     P00012 - that it was at that session that Dr. Karadzic activated the

Page 35985

 1     second level of Variant A and B, referring to it at least four separate

 2     times.  Do you recall that, Mr. Vucurevic, because you didn't mention

 3     that in your statement?

 4        A.   I don't recall that.  I don't recall that.

 5        Q.   Well, let me just give you a couple of references that

 6     Dr. Karadzic made at that time.  At the bottom of page 5 of P0012, that

 7     is, if you remember, who keeps that in mind, or maybe not on his person,

 8     a stage number two, there is -- you remember what I'm talking about, from

 9     the audience we know, yes.  That is, therefore, the stage number two, the

10     second stage in smaller or bigger variations, but you have to implement

11     that slowly now to have absolute control who is travelling along your

12     roads, et cetera.

13             And just one more reference at page 24, and as regards the

14     essence of which Mr. Radic spoke now:

15             "Please, that is why we called you today, to intensify, to

16     introduce the second level and to intensify the functioning of the

17     government at any cost and in every single millimetre of our territory."

18             Does that recall your recollection of Mr. Karadzic's references

19     to Variant A and B and the introduction of the second level within a very

20     short time after you had talked with him about the fact that this was a

21     historical moment and that we will have complete control over things?

22        A.   If we are talking about Variants, I'm aware of only two Variants

23     which existed from the beginning of the conflict until the end of the

24     war.  Mr. Karadzic was aware of them and they were implemented by the

25     Main Board down.  If we cannot live together, we should split in peace.

Page 35986

 1     And if everything else fails, we have to defend ourselves.  I don't know

 2     of any other variant but these two that prevailed all the time.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Tieger.  Having

 5     difficulty following the witness statement again.  You referred to

 6     paragraph 32 where the witness said about his statement in a session.

 7     Could we upload his statement para 32?  What I have with me is what I

 8     have -- I'm seeing at the e-court, but I'm not sure if that's the one you

 9     are referring to.

10             MR. TIEGER:  [Microphone not activated]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload the document.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President, if it helps, I definitely have

13     that in the previous version by the witness that is -- [overlapping

14     speakers] --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vucurevic confirmed it was para 32, yes, because

16     you --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, and it is.  It should be --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Is this it, Mr. Tieger?

19             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, and I think the exhibit is an excerpt

20     reflecting the witness's comments at that session.  That's what it

21     purports to be and that's what it appears to be.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             MR. TIEGER:  And -- which is why I described some of the details

24     the witness went into at that time involving the --

25             JUDGE KWON:  But 1D25791 is an intercept.

Page 35987

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I read 1D25802, Mr. President.  Okay, it is -- I've

 2     got, in fact --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  1D25 --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry about this.  I've got three different

 5     versions.  The first draft, then something that was submitted as the

 6     final version, and then the -- then now this third version which does

 7     have the same -- the precise words of what I had been previously saying

 8     was at paragraph 32 in paragraph 36:

 9             "I have been shown document 1D25802."

10             And I apologise for the confusion.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But I have difficulty in locating that document.

12     Where is it referred to in the statement?

13             MR. TIEGER:  I -- as far as I'm aware, it's referred to at

14     page -- I mean, looking at it right here, I've got -- here's the version

15     I printed out most recently.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but --

17             MR. TIEGER:  It refers to paragraph 32, 1D25802.  Here's what --

18     [Overlapping speakers].

19             JUDGE KWON:  But this is the -- this -- what we are seeing on the

20     monitor is to be the most recent version.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And here is what I understand is the most recent

22     version --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, but --

24             MR. TIEGER:  -- which has the same paragraph at paragraph 36, and

25     then if we want turn to paragraph 36 here, if it's not there, then I

Page 35988

 1     don't know what happened in the meantime.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I was a bit confused all the time.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I apologise for that, Mr. President.  I should not

 4     have [overlapping speakers] --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Ah, 36.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Right.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  So this is the old version?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  No, this is now the latest version.  It conforms to

 9     the previous latest version and the original proposed final was -- had

10     this at paragraph 32 which is where the confusion arise -- arose.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I'm actually a little confused

12     also, because we only know of two versions, the original witness

13     statement that was disclosed early on, part of our 65 ter obligations,

14     and then the statement which was e-mailed to everyone on Friday which is

15     the same one that we're all using today.  So I'm not understanding why

16     there's more than two versions that Mr. Tieger has.  But anyway, you have

17     the latest version that we have on the screen.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Well, and the confusion may be that one is a track

19     changes version.  That may be the problem.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry about that, Mr. President.

22        Q.   All right.  You did confirm that Mr. Borkovic was for some period

23     of time the chief of police in Trebinje and we took a look at what -- at

24     the discussion that you and Mr. Karadzic had about him in February in

25     1992.  I'd like to look at -- by the way, you said that Mr. Borkovic was

Page 35989

 1     there only for a short time.  Why did he leave?

 2        A.   I don't know.  He arrived on the eve of the war.  He had fled

 3     from Zenica.  He was praised as a good worker.  He was chief for a few

 4     months.  When things took off the ground, when things escalated, he fled

 5     to Belgrade.  He was there for a very short period of time.  I don't know

 6     exactly for how long.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm confused.  I don't know whether

10     Mr. Tieger gives up on the thesis that in paragraph 36 there is a

11     reference to the meeting which took place on the 14th of February, 1992.

12     A lot was recorded and I fail to see any link.

13             MR. TIEGER:  I'd be happy to explain if the Court has any --

14     confusion by the Court, but I don't think there is.  This witness was

15     present at the meeting on February 14th, and I confronted him with what

16     else was said at that same meeting.

17        Q.   Mr. ...

18             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  If I can move on, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The witness statement itself does not make much

20     reference to this meeting.  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic -- oh, I'm sorry,

21     Mr. Tieger.  My apology.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  Except that both documents reflect the

23     witness's presence at that meeting.

24        Q.   In any event, let's see if I can refresh your memory about why

25     Mr. Borkovic left.

Page 35990

 1             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could call up 65 ter 24836.

 2        Q.   This is a statement given to the ICTY by Mr. Borkovic.  He also

 3     identifies himself as the -- at one time the chief of police in Trebinje,

 4     and he describes at the top of page 4 how his departure from that

 5     position took place.  He notes that in early January he was ordered by

 6     the authorities to ethnically cleanse the police from Muslims.  They

 7     wanted only Serbs as police officers and he refused to do so.  And when

 8     he says "authorities," he means Krsto Savic, the chief of police in

 9     Nevesinje, but who had also been appointed as the chief of police of the

10     SAO Herzegovina in September/October 1991.  And your statement identifies

11     you as the president of the SAO Trebinje Hercegovina, Mr. Vucurevic.

12             Mr. Borkovic indicates that he -- thereafter he attended a

13     meeting with other chiefs of police that took place in your office.  The

14     other chiefs were talking about how they cleansed their forces.  These

15     were chiefs from Ljubinje, Gacko, Ilica, and Nevesinje, and at that

16     meeting he was dismissed as the chief of police in Trebinje, and it was

17     decided that Krsto Savic should temporarily take over his post.  On the

18     next day, Krsto Savic entered his office with several armed men and he

19     was thrown out.  All the Muslim police officers were dismissed from their

20     jobs by Krsto Savic on the same day, and he goes on to describe Mr. Savic

21     as a nationalist, chauvinist, and very rough in his attitude against

22     Muslims and Croats.

23             Mr. Vucurevic, that's a more fulsome and more accurate account of

24     how Mr. Borkovic left his position as chief of police in Trebinje;

25     correct?

Page 35991

 1        A.   No.  Gentlemen, when -- people needed to be promoted once there

 2     had already been a split in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  When the Serbian MUP

 3     had to be promulgated, Mr. Karadzic expressly ordered the then-minister

 4     of the interior - the name escapes me but now I remember

 5     Mr. Stanisic - that everybody who received a new uniform could stay with

 6     the police and could keep --

 7        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic -- Mr. Vucurevic, you're talking --

 8        A.   -- his position that he had previously had --

 9        Q.   You're talking about a later time.  I'm asking you about the

10     specific circumstances.  If you deny that Mr. -- the allegations made

11     here, and particularly that Mr. Borkovic was forced out because he

12     refused to ethnically cleanse the police or that Mr. Savic was someone

13     rough in his attitude against Muslims and Croats, that's your position.

14        A.   If I have the right not to agree, but I absolutely do not agree.

15     Mr. Borkovic had fled from Zenica.  His only son and his wife remained in

16     Zenica.  They subsequently fled to Belgrade.  He abandoned his position.

17     He did not have a successor.  Nobody had chased him away.  Nobody had

18     given him any inappropriate tasks.  He simply joined his wife and son

19     without ever reporting to anybody, so there could not be any talk about

20     an order given to Borkovic to implement something that was inhumane.  He

21     never reported to anybody before he left and people went on looking for

22     him for several days after he did.

23        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, the fact is that although you've been depicting

24     yourself as someone with a great deal of benevolence toward the Muslims,

25     the reality is that you were someone who was determined to see

Page 35992

 1     separation, that you were concerned about the ethnic structure in

 2     Republika Srpska being to the disadvantage of the Serbs, and in general

 3     you thought that there was a -- and were concerned about the birth-rate

 4     of Muslims as a result and referred to this miserable Islam and described

 5     a civilisational war.  All of those things are actually true about your

 6     attitude rather than how you've been depicting yourself as the benevolent

 7     leader of Trebinje?

 8        A.   If I were allowed to do so I would ask you, if Trebinje was the

 9     only city in Bosnia-Herzegovina when -- where there were no inter-ethnic

10     conflicts, where not even the smallest house was burned, where no

11     property was destroyed, where the Muslims returned from Denmark

12     predominantly to spend holidays there and who thanked me, and they did it

13     in the presence of the International Red Cross - I have a document to

14     that effect where they thanked me - and if I achieved that in Trebinje as

15     it was, and now you are trying to blame me, either you or somebody else,

16     for behaving in a humane and civilisational way, then all of this is

17     nothing short of a sheer wonder to me.

18        Q.   Well, Mr. Vucurevic, we've already addressed the pillar you seem

19     to be relying upon, that everything in Trebinje went so swimmingly, but

20     I'm actually focusing on the expression of your attitudes toward such

21     issues as ethnic separation, ethnic structure, birth-rates, and the

22     Muslim or Islamic civilisation generally.  So let's look at a few of

23     those items.

24             MR. TIEGER:  First of all 65 ter 24813.  This should be an

25     article from ""Srpsko Oslobodjenje"" in October 1994.

Page 35993

 1        Q.   It begins with as you can see toward the bottom your excellent

 2     relations with -- or your former excellent relations with Serbian

 3     President Slobodan Milosevic and whether or not you're still in touch

 4     with him.  You recall providing that information to

 5     ""Srpsko Oslobodjenje"" back in 1994, sir?

 6        A.   I apologise, I am 80 years of age and the letters are too small

 7     for me to read, but I can confirm that I have read dozens of my

 8     interviews that I never gave to anybody.  At that time the war was waged

 9     in all sorts of ways.  There was a war --

10        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, let's be --

11        A.   -- waged with rifles and there was a media war.  So I've read a

12     number of my interviews --

13        Q.   Was ""Srpsko Oslobodjenje"" conducting a media war against you?

14     That's a Serbian organ; right?

15        A.   I apologise, I did not understand your question, sir.

16        Q.   [Microphone not activated].

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Tieger, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   You can see your picture on the screen in front of you.  This is

21     an October 1994 edition of ""Srpsko Oslobodjenje"."

22             MR. TIEGER:  If we can scroll down a little bit the witness can

23     see the heading and -- further down, please.

24        Q.   All right.  ""Srpsko Oslobodjenje"" was a Bosnian Serb organ;

25     right?  And they weren't conducting a media war against you, sir, were

Page 35994

 1     they?

 2        A.   Well, it all depended.  From time to time they did.

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, I -- we looked at the -- it's a big picture of

 4     you.  Are you accustomed to having your picture on the cover or the pages

 5     of ""Srpsko Oslobodjenje"" on a daily basis or do you remember that you

 6     gave such an interview to them?

 7        A.   I've just told you that I cannot read these small letters so I

 8     cannot see what is contained in the --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why can't we remove the English

10     page from the screen because it is actually not a translation of the

11     original.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This has obviously been doctored in

13     some way.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, given the time I'm wondering if we

15     could print this out for the witness and during the lunch break he could

16     have a chance to read it over and then maybe he could answer more

17     authoritatively.

18             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer do you need, Mr. Tieger?

19             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, what I have left is the items I

20     indicated I'd have.  I want to cover quickly three intercepts that were

21     taken out of the earlier draft so that the Court -- which were basically

22     authenticated by this witness were taken out.  So I want to get those

23     introduced.  And then I have one more matter related to Dubrovnik.  So I

24     would say about -- assuming we get through this quickly, I would say

25     about 25 minutes.  I realise that I'm at the time allotted, but it's -- I

Page 35995

 1     think sometimes difficult to tell when the allocations are made what the

 2     witness will be like or what kinds of evidence -- what kind of

 3     information will be relevant to his cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Separate from the issue, would it cause much problem

 5     if the Chamber is to take a lunch break for an hour and adjourn at 3.00

 6     today, only for today?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No problem.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  No problem here, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Then when we adjourn, I would like you to try to

10     conclude in 15 minutes, give it a try.

11             The Chamber will break for an hour and resume at 1.35.

12                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.38 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, please continue.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Two quick things.  It

16     turns out that I was not responsible for the confusion of the paragraphs,

17     as Mr. Robinson graciously advised me.  And as a result we had a

18     conversation about moving through the remaining portion of the

19     examination much more efficiently and I'm grateful to the Defence for

20     that discussion and the approach that we'll take -- that we'll follow.

21        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, I see you have the article in front of you now,

22     that is the "Srpsko Oslobodjenje" article.  As you have been able to see,

23     that article discusses -- in the course of that interview with

24     "Srpsko Oslobodjenje" you discuss a number of things, including contacts

25     with Milosevic, the rejection of the Vance-Owen Plan, access to the sea,

Page 35996

 1     and so on.  So before I go on, I take it that having the opportunity to

 2     review that refreshed your recollection about having given such an

 3     interview; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, but this conversation never happened.  Please.  The war

 5     started and then it was left up to one municipality, Trebinje, to finish

 6     it off.  We were very angry with the state of Yugoslavia for initiating

 7     all this.  Since I am a poet and a writer, it contains some pejorative

 8     comments, and then you have a title "We are not Going to Attack Serbia

 9     With Stones," especially that someone took great care to put this

10     frightening picture of me which obviously makes it something that has

11     been apparently doctored.

12        Q.   Well, difficult to tell precisely what you're referring to, sir,

13     but let me take you to a particular -- let me ask you, and before I do

14     that, let me ask you if you were aware of the fact that

15     "Srpsko Oslobodjenje" was an -- a publication enterprise that was created

16     by a decision of the Republika Srpska government in April of 1994?

17        A.   Yes, I am aware of that, yes.

18        Q.   And it was praised by people such as Momcilo Krajisnik --

19        A.   But this cannot be a guarantee that they would do something

20     well-intentionally at every point and in every place.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, let me just go to the portion of the article

22     toward -- on the last page of that article, where you are quoted as

23     saying the following, after discussing negotiations with Croatia and,

24     more specifically, with Mate Boban and you say:

25             "They will part ways very soon and this is a good thing too,"

Page 35997

 1     meaning the Croats and the Muslims.

 2             That was your position at the time, wasn't it?

 3        A.   I met with Mate Boban, a Croatian leader, because we were two

 4     neighbouring peoples in eastern Herzegovina.  Now, what was the purpose

 5     of that meeting?  It was --

 6        Q.   No, no, no, Mr. Vucurevic, let's focus on one thing at a time.

 7     It was your position at the time that this "Srpsko Oslobodjenje" article

 8     that the Muslims and the Croats would part ways very soon and you

 9     considered that a good thing, right?  Just yes or no.

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   So you thought it would be a good thing if the Muslims and the

12     stayed together, you thought that would be a good thing?

13        A.   Everything was in the function of stopping war escalation between

14     the Serbs and Croats that were quite fierce.

15        Q.   And here is what you're quoted as saying in the article with

16     reference to parting -- those parting of the ways.

17             "That should suit us so that we can also sort out the Muslims

18     once and for all.  You see, to have anything to do with the Muslims is

19     like dealing with the devil himself.  Let me tell you, this war with

20     them, it is no longer only a religious, ethnic, and civil war or whatever

21     they call it.  This is a civilisational war.  This miserable Islam, this

22     civilisation of theirs is about to explode.  The way they breed, you

23     cannot even count them.  Their birth-rate, God help us all, and they have

24     no land or country of their own.  That is why the Croats are afraid of

25     being with them."

Page 35998

 1             Now, Mr. Vucurevic, that was the expression of your views in

 2     1994; isn't that right?

 3        A.   No --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpretation is completely

 5     worthless.  First of all, the English translation read by Mr. Tieger.

 6     Therefore, I would kindly ask that this paragraph be put to the witness

 7     regardless of whether he said it in a pub or in an interview.  The fact

 8     remains that it was mistranslated.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I'm happy to get it retranslated, but I understood

10     the witness was -- okay, fair enough if the witness was hearing other

11     words, but let's make sure we're talking about the same portion of the

12     article.  Please call up -- I think we have that last page there and --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we collapse the English.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   I think you can see the portion we're talking about, sir, which

16     is the second column and the last -- the bottom paragraph that is not in

17     italics.  Now, that's the portion of the interview to which I was drawing

18     your attention.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was not translated to the

20     witness.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Well, the witness is reading it now.  He can tell us

22     whether this portion first of all --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Should we identify the portion?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Because it's in Cyrillic I'm not going to be able to

25     phonetically read it, but the cursor -- if you move the cursor slightly

Page 35999

 1     to the right, it's that portion and up.  It's that portion of the

 2     article, right.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vucurevic, could you read the portion which you

 4     see in front of you?  If you could read aloud.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can openly tell you that I

 6     was able to reach an agreement with Mato Boban about many things despite

 7     the war.  Listen, they do not like the Muslims.  What are you talking

 8     about?  It is the pressure that the Americans and the Germans are

 9     exerting on them and causing them enormous troubles, but they will part

10     their -- they will go their separate ways very soon.  Well, let them do

11     it.  This will be beneficial to us as well so that we separate from

12     Muslims for once and for all because -- I told you, all of this was an

13     insinuation.

14             MR. TIEGER:  If you're wondering, Mr. President, the witness

15     stopped before completing the rest of the paragraph which contains the --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could -- could you read out the paragraph,

17     Mr. Vucurevic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can read it.

19             Because, if you are in a league with the Muslims it is just like

20     being in a league with the devil, but I want to tell you this war with

21     them is no longer only a religious and a national or a civil war as

22     somebody would like to call it.  This is the war of civilisations.  This

23     retched Islam and this civilisation is on the brink of being exploded and

24     they are breeding.  You cannot count them.  They have an enormous

25     birth-rate and not all the countries have enough space and that is why

Page 36000

 1     the Croats are afraid of being in league with them.  I read this

 2     paragraph but I have nothing to do with it.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I would tender that

 4     and I'd move on to some taped comments by the witness.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We don't object to this being

 7     admitted, although the issue of weight is important since the witness

 8     hasn't confirmed that it was his -- that he said those things.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6226, Your Honours.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, I --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I still believe that we have a

14     translation issue of the attributes used with regard of Islam.  The word

15     was not "miserable" but rather "unfortunate" or something of that sort.

16             MR. TIEGER:  It was -- I think "miserable" was in the original

17     translation, "retched" was in the translation we heard a moment ago.  The

18     difference is not particularly significant in this context.

19        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, I wanted to ask you about a certain number of

20     things you said during that taped interview we discussed earlier.  The

21     first one, and that is 65 ter -- or it's now P6225, and so I'll be asking

22     to append these additional portions to that exhibit.  I'll run through

23     them as quickly as I can, Mr. Vucurevic, for your benefit and for the

24     benefit of the Court.

25             First at excerpt 00:15:35 through 17:42 you stated the following:

Page 36001

 1             "I mean, it is true when they say that Serbs are to blame for the

 2     war in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- actually, they are because they started it

 3     between themselves, both Croats and Muslims were Serbs in the past, you

 4     know.  They are Catholicised Serbs, Islamised Serbs and such.  So why did

 5     this happen?  I think there is nothing worse than estranging oneself from

 6     ones genus.  You see, the wolf and the dog are of the same species yet

 7     they bite at each other terribly."

 8             Then you also noted at 39:47 through 42:33 the following:

 9             "Mr. Izetbegovic, that tragic figure in the Muslim nation, has

10     been refusing to give up the sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina for a long

11     time, something we shall never agree to for as long as we live because in

12     it we see no happiness, no perspective for our people.  We have to put

13     our boots on.  We want to build a Serbian state and we will not take

14     those boots off until we have made it."

15             And then:

16             "We have no right to the price.  We have no right to count the

17     dead either.  With all due respect to our fallen soldiers and those who

18     are yet to fall, we shall not take the boots off.  We shall make the

19     Serbian state at any cost.  There is no doubt about that."

20             And then finally with respect to the Serbian state you say at

21     00:20 through 00:1:05:

22             "Yes, this time they will definitely not stop us.  We will

23     persevere at all costs and we will make the Serbian state.  We will make

24     Republika Srpska a state, and we will, of course, seek annexation to

25     other states.  Actually, I think it would be better to call it united

Page 36002

 1     Serbian lands and not states."

 2             Mr. Vucurevic, those are reflections of comments you made during

 3     the -- not reflections, those are the comments you made during the course

 4     of your taped interview that we referred to earlier at 6225, that is, the

 5     interview that took place in the latter -- the interview taken place in

 6     the 20 months after the war began and was part of your book promotion in

 7     Belgrade?  Can you confirm that?

 8        A.   For five centuries we were enslaved by the Turks and lots of

 9     Serbs converted to Islam.  So one can indeed say this was a war between

10     the Catholicised Serbs, the Islamised Serbs, and those who remained

11     Orthodox.  That was one nation and it was such a big misfortune that they

12     fought war against each other and that was our misfortune.

13             MR. TIEGER:  I tender those excerpts, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we add those parts to the previous exhibit?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

16        Q.   Very quickly, you referred to negotiations with Mate Boban, a

17     discussion about those negotiations are found at 65 ter 24818 -- 815,

18     excuse me.

19        A.   Mr. Mate Boban as the leader of the Croatian people in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the president of the HDZ invited me to come to

21     Grude in the war zone were populated by the Croats.  I took a risk and I

22     went to see him so that the two of us can do something and stop the war

23     and the bloodshed.  And we were almost on the brink of reaching an

24     agreement, but regrettably we failed.

25        Q.   And we see on the front page of this article a photograph of the

Page 36003

 1     two of you that reflects those discussions; is that right?

 2        A.   This is not Mate Boban.

 3        Q.   My apologies.  This was the journalist you were talking to at the

 4     time.  If you could look quickly at the bolded portion, for example, just

 5     to confirm that this was a discussion about those -- about that meeting

 6     with Mate Boban.

 7        A.   I don't know what secret negotiations are being discussed here.

 8     If you are making a statement to the press, then it's not secret at all.

 9        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, during the course of those discussions with

10     Mate Boban, the issue of borders, not surprisingly, came up.  And Boban

11     asked you your view of where the border should go, and you proposed what

12     you considered the most natural one, that is, the Neretva river; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you said to Boban, so it would be Croats to the west and

15     Serbs to the east of the Neretva, and then Boban asked -- or then, as did

16     the reporter, asked you:  Well, is there a place for the Muslims there?

17     And your response to Boban was that the place for the Muslims, that is,

18     this semi-nation, is in between, that is, in the Neretva.

19        A.   Ah, no, definitely not.  No way.  On the other side the majority

20     were Croats and the Serbs were on the opposite side, and I told him if we

21     cannot do it together let us stop the war.  Let us be good neighbours and

22     co-operate.  Now, as for this comment about the Muslims, this is a

23     fabrication.  Somebody made that up.  Anyway, there were only a few of

24     them living there.

25        Q.   So -- and the -- so you're saying the journalist made up the fact

Page 36004

 1     that you said in the Neretva both Boban and I laughed at my response,

 2     et cetera, and that's found in the last column, sir.  Can we blow that up

 3     and go to the last column, please.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Would Mr. Tieger kindly not -- yes, thank you.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  The top part of that column, please.  The second

 6     response, if we could blow that up.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that, but I do not accept

 8     that.  I wouldn't say that in a dream.  What journalists are making up,

 9     it's their problem, I mean this comment about the Muslims being in

10     between.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Fine.  Thank you.

13             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.  Again, with respect

15     to the issue of what he said, it would be a matter of weight.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6227, Your Honours.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, there were three intercepts that were

19     part of the original package of the amalgamated statement and that were

20     associated exhibits and that were obviously during the course of that

21     process authenticated by the witness since they involve him.  And I

22     would, with the agreement of the Defence as mentioned before, I would

23     tender those, that's 65 ter 30183, 1D25793, and 1D25794.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Have they been commented on in his statement?

25             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, they all arose out of paragraph 24,

Page 36005

 1     Mr. President, where he gave an explanation of general events in Trebinje

 2     and issues that arose and then those intercepts were to -- were examples

 3     of the information that he provided.  That's how they were originally

 4     packaged in the statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  If this witness has authenticated the intercept, it

 6     may be a subject of bar table motion.  If you are not leading those

 7     intercepts with the witness now.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  If the Court gives me some time to go ahead and do

 9     that, I'm happy to do so.  I just thought this was a more efficient way

10     in light of the fact that there had been general comments about him and

11     the circumstances in which they originally arose.  It seems -- I don't

12     mean to make this a particular practice, but in this case it seemed a

13     quite efficient and appropriate way to proceed.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But how do we analyse whether it is relevant in what

15     context to the case?  I'll consult my colleagues.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Well, these did -- let me -- I'm sorry,

17     Mr. President, if it helps, these are all conversations between the

18     witness and Mr. Karadzic in -- and the earlier comments were about

19     personnel matters, interaction between the witness and the accused in

20     connection with some of those matters.  So I think we know the context

21     now in which they arise from the statement.  I think paragraph 24

22     continued to remain in the statement, but these particular intercepts

23     were omitted.  I mean, if I had more time I would actually pursue the

24     issue of why they had been omitted and some of the specifics, but I don't

25     think that that undercuts their relevance in any way.

Page 36006

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Speaking from our side, we

 3     would also like to have these admitted.  They were dropped from the

 4     statement because I instructed our person who was working with this

 5     witness to reduce the amount of associated exhibits to make it more

 6     manageable for the Chamber and he did that by eliminating some of these

 7     intercepts, but we think they're relevant.  We think they're admissible

 8     because the witness is one of the participants so that they wouldn't need

 9     to be marked for identification or further authenticated.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive them.

12             THE ACCUSED:  As D, please.  It should be admitted as D exhibit.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, it doesn't matter.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it -- as far as I'm concerned it doesn't

15     really matter.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit them as P exhibits.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibits P6227 [sic] through to Exhibits P6230

18     respectively, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe that's a better solution.

21     Then we shall refer to Prosecution exhibits.

22             JUDGE KWON:  It's from Exhibit P6228.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  P6228 through P6230.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And one last topic.

Page 36007

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, you have further topics?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Just -- sorry, Mr. President, just very quickly, and

 3     it just involves -- this will be very short I hope.

 4        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, if you can confirm that in fact you are -- among

 5     the things you're known for in the region was being -- was saying with

 6     respect to the -- to Dubrovnik and the controversy surrounding the

 7     shelling of Dubrovnik that we will build a more beautiful and older

 8     Dubrovnik.  That's the topic you were asked about by the interviewer

 9     during the course of your -- the interview we've spoken of before?

10        A.   As far as the shelling of Dubrovnik is concerned, the civilian

11     authorities have nothing to do with it.  As for the statement itself

12     mentioned here, gentlemen, the Croats demolished the old bridge on the

13     Neretva river, a renowned historical monument.  When they asked them why

14     they did it, they said that they would build a new bridge on the Neretva

15     river.  When I was surprised to have heard them saying that, if they

16     claim that they would be able to build an older bridge, I repeated the

17     same with regard to Dubrovnik.  But I think that was not a serious

18     matter.  That was said jokingly and therefore I don't take it seriously.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When the bridge was mentioned first

20     it should say "a new and older bridge" because that was the paradox

21     involved.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   Well, what you also said about Dubrovnik is captured at 22:33

24     through 26:30, and in particular the latter portion of that of 6225 when

25     you said as follows in connection with the shelling of Dubrovnik.  First,

Page 36008

 1     as you described earlier in the day, you referred generically to the

 2     principle of tit for tat and you talked about Trebinje being shelled and

 3     so Dubrovnik being shelled as a result.  And then at the end of that you

 4     said, when asked where exactly did you shoot, you said:

 5             "Please, we shot whatever could be shot at and with as much

 6     frequency in Dubrovnik.  I mean, yes.  And we regret it.  We regret every

 7     time a missile hits off the target or is fired in vain, but this" --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it shown in the Serbian

 9     as well so that the witness could see it himself, otherwise we just have

10     a jumble of words.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, is it necessary or relevant to lead with

12     this about Dubrovnik?

13             MR. TIEGER:  Well, the -- I would say the relevance appears -- I

14     was going to move very quickly after introducing this to the accused's

15     awareness of that and his invocation of that as reflected in another

16     article of "Srpsko Oslobodjenje" in January of 1995, where he spoke about

17     the ability of the Bosnian Serbs to target Dubrovnik and used it as

18     leverage against the Croats in negotiations.  So for that reason I

19     thought it was relevant.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Does it have anything to do with the current

21     indictment?

22             MR. TIEGER:  Well, it's not a geographic focus of the indictment,

23     but I would say the practice reflected in the two examples I was focusing

24     on and attempting to introduce is certainly a matter that we see over and

25     over again during the course of this evidence.  But if the Court thinks

Page 36009

 1     it's geographic -- that the fact that it's not specifically

 2     geographically mentioned in the indictment is an issue, I will say no, of

 3     course Dubrovnik is not part of this current indictment.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If you could kindly move on or conclude.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But time-wise it's also not

 6     defined, then perhaps we should refer to 1941 rather than 1991.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Inappropriate, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  If I could conclude with just getting an

 9     affirmation by the witness about that portion of the taped transcript

10     that will be adequate.

11        Q.   So if I could just continue, you said:

12             "This time when they repeated the shelling after five and a half

13     months we returned twice as hard.  Next time it happens, we'll fire four

14     times more missiles on Dubrovnik than they fire on Trebinje."

15             Okay.  If you can --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we keep going and insisting on

17     this, despite your decision not to do so, can we have this page displayed

18     so that we can all see it.

19             MR. TIEGER:  E-court page 7.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, let's conclude without seeing that

23     portion.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Very well, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 36010

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   And thank you, Witness, for answering the questions.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  I have to

 5     shed light on a few things.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you tell the Chamber what is this newspaper,

 8     "Nacional"?  Where was it published and what was its position vis-a-vis

 9     the Serbs, especially in 1997 which is the date of the article?  Did you

10     hear me, Mr. Vucurevic?

11        A.   Excuse me?

12        Q.   Did you hear my question?

13        A.   I didn't know who the question was intended for.  What did you

14     ask me?

15        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber what is this "Nacional," where is it

16     published, and what was its position concerning the Serbs?

17        A.   To tell you the truth, I've read quite a lot of press, but I've

18     never read "Nacional."  I don't know whose publication it is.

19        Q.   Thank you.  This refers to both the "Nacional" and "Oslobodjenje"

20     articles.  Did you indeed give the interviews and were they sent back to

21     you to be authorised and checked?

22        A.   Never.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   You're welcome.

25        Q.   Can you remember when the first preliminary agreement was reached

Page 36011

 1     to have three Bosnia and Herzegovinas in one?

 2        A.   I don't know whether I'll be right on the date, but I know the

 3     sequence of events.  But I'm afraid I can't be precise in terms of the

 4     date.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But today some words were quoted to you from the

 6     plenary session of the SDS of the 14th of February, 1992.  Do you recall

 7     that -- or perhaps we should have the document displayed.  Do you

 8     remember me saying at the time something about what was achieved and that

 9     you should keep it so that there would be no exodus from our parts?

10        A.   I remember it.  I was present, Mr. President.  I know that it was

11     all aimed in the direction of achieving an agreement by peaceful means if

12     possible.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14        A.   You're welcome.

15        Q.   You've already answered this.  The permits to leave, you said

16     that they contained such words that they designated one's right to

17     return.  Can you explain that?

18        A.   Mr. President, as per oral agreement with 5- or 600 Muslims in

19     the hall of our Assembly, it was agreed that they would send a delegation

20     to my office where we discussed things as civilised men so that they

21     would choose what to do.  We had reached an agreement with the corps

22     command that there would be no soldiers forced to serve.  If there were

23     Muslims mobilised in the Serb army, either before or after that date, if

24     such a person did not wish to remain in the ranks, they would be left

25     having first returned their weapons and equipment.  Then they would need

Page 36012

 1     to submit an application on a form to issue them with a passport, and

 2     when we ran out of forms they were issued passes.  On the passes it was

 3     stated that they could leave Republika Srpska and return freely.  I have

 4     over 700 samples of such passes which I had issued.  They all state the

 5     phrase "they are free to return," and those who wished to leave

 6     temporarily, that's what we put down.  If somebody wanted to take their

 7     car with them, we would note the registration plate on the form and could

 8     leave; however, that is something that the Serb people in the rest of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina could not do, at least they were not treated the way

10     we treated the Muslims.

11        Q.   Thank you.  During examination-in-chief there were some

12     allegations of sorts about your position concerning Muslims.  Were there

13     significant examples of Serb and Muslim friendship in Trebinje?  Did we

14     have some kind of arrangements with certain Muslim parties?

15        A.   When the armed conflict or near armed conflict broke out, we

16     tried to calm down the situation in Herzegovina and not Herzegovina alone

17     so that the war would not escalate.  At the time the president of the

18     Muslim Bosniak organisation, Mr. Adil -- perhaps you can assist

19     me - Zulfikarpasic or something, we agreed on something.  We organised a

20     march of friendship which was a column of vehicles, toured the rest of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and returned to the soccer pitch in Trebinje.  15.000

22     people gathered there.  Mr. Zulfikarpasic spoke there as well as

23     Mr. Karadzic, Nikola Koljevic, and myself.  We all invited the people to

24     be unified so that we could be saved from being pushed into the war.  It

25     seemed we had achieved something, but Mr. Izetbegovic took care to bury

Page 36013

 1     it and the conflict broke out.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 3     be asked not to speak directly into the microphone.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is there some footage from the rally at the Leotar soccer pitch?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, just a second, Mr. Vucurevic, yes,

 7     Mr. Vucurevic, please put a pause before you start answering the

 8     question, and then you are speaking too closely to the microphone.  Thank

 9     you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So could you repeat your answer.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat from the start.  In

13     order to calm the situation down so that there would be no interethnic

14     conflict --

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You've answered that part.  How about the part whether there was

17     any footage of the rally with the 15.000 people?  And you can sit back

18     and speak slowly.

19        A.   I will.  I'm not sure if there's any footage.  I can try to check

20     with the voice of Trebinje or Radio Trebinje; however, every speech of

21     every person who spoke there, including Zulfikarpasic, Karadzic,

22     Koljevic, and myself, is there.  We all invited all the three peoples to

23     be tolerant and peaceful so that we wouldn't have another bloody war for

24     the third time in the 20th century.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Today you were asked about a document that was not

Page 36014

 1     admitted but it's in the transcript.  There is quite some mention of your

 2     position concerning Dubrovnik.  Did you support the shelling of Dubrovnik

 3     or not?

 4        A.   Mr. President -- yes, I need to wait.  Mr. President --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I mean, normally I would invite -- enjoy that

 8     question because it opens the door to precisely the portion of the

 9     interview that I wasn't able to get in, so out of fairness I'm alerting

10     the Chamber and the Defence to precisely that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, move on to another topic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to show P5749 where

13     it is clearly stated he was against any shelling, and it is an intercept

14     which is on the Prosecution list.  They could have offered it in their

15     cross-examination, but let's move on.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   On page 36, line 10, when you discussed the destruction of

18     mosques and churches, you said that the army destroyed it.  Did you have

19     in mind a specific unit and whether it was ordered -- well, I know what

20     you had in mind but do tell us what you had in mind when you said the

21     army destroyed it.

22        A.   A unit arrived in Trebinje gradually, not as a single group, but

23     they took up their headquarters in the Leotar hotel, causing much trouble

24     for us.  I sent to you my order to have them removed so that they

25     wouldn't intimidate the Croats and the Muslims, then they were moved out

Page 36015

 1     of the settlement.  Still they continued doing things that were wrong.

 2     Then another order of mine was issued that Defence have in their

 3     possession, it's an original, for them to be driven out of Herzegovina.

 4     I risked my own head because we had them removed.

 5             As for the destruction of the mosques, well things were being

 6     destroyed all over.  It was based on the principle of:  If you destroy

 7     mine, I'll destroy something of yours, but it was not organised.  No

 8     command had anything to do with it.  It was simply that one morning a

 9     religious building would show -- would be destroyed.  The Catholic

10     cathedral in the centre of Trebinje next to the market-place was left

11     untouched when the Dayton Accords were put in place.  Why?  Because the

12     Orthodox church in Dubrovnik had not been destroyed.  If it had been, no

13     God would have saved the cathedral in Trebinje.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Today you were shown part of your interview from

15     "Free Europe" or something which is P6625 [as interpreted], page 3.

16     There there is some reference to a message of Allah, and you said that

17     Allah told them to leave Trebinje, and you told Mr. Tieger that it was a

18     fabrication and that it cannot be found in the SDA documents.  Can we

19     actually find it in their documents?

20        A.   Yes, definitely, Mr. President.  I am no man of lies.  Whatever I

21     say is something I stand by.  I not only say things but I can prove

22     things with documents, persuasive documents.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   You're welcome.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D7093, the first two

Page 36016

 1     pages of this document were admitted as D something, but we have to offer

 2     this number.  It was shown by the Prosecution.  In the first version the

 3     third page was not admitted, so can we first go to the first page and

 4     then to the third page.  1D7093.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You were shown this document today, were you not.  Actually, this

 7     order or this instruction was quoted to you, instructions for moving out

 8     of Trebinje by Mr. Hasan Cengic; correct?  The 20th of January, 1993, is

 9     that it?

10        A.   [No interpretation]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The answer was inaudible.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the fourth page,

13     please.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Page 3.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And now would you please look at page 3, the Municipal Board of

17     the SDA in Trebinje where it says:

18             "Acting on the instructions of the headquarters ..." and so on

19     and so forth, "I'm inviting you to do the following."

20             It says here the universal principles of the Islamic faith, the

21     Serbo-Chetnik armada, that will be us I suppose, and then somewhere in

22     the middle of the page it says:

23             "We appeal to you to quietly and cautiously and bravely and in an

24     organised manner begin leaving temporarily our beloved Trebinje which

25     will always be a Muslim Bosnian Trebinje to which we will return in

Page 36017

 1     triumph with the help of Allah and the forces of our state of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina."

 3             How did you interpret this?  Who was it who put pressure on

 4     people by quoting Allah?  Who was it who was trying to persuade Muslims

 5     to leave?

 6        A.   Is this a question for me?

 7        Q.   Every question is for you, sir.

 8        A.   Mr. President, Your Excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, I spoke

 9     to a Muslim before their exodus started in groups.  There had been

10     smaller groups, Muslims, who were moving out, but at the same time 6.000

11     Serbs fled Trebinje trying to escape war, trying to save their lives.

12     That person invited me to come and talk to him not in his house but in

13     the wood.  He told me that he was a member of the Municipal Board of the

14     SDA and he said:  You told us in the municipality that it was the black

15     devil who was chasing us away from Cetin [phoen].  He took out some

16     papers and told me:  I'm going to give you these but I need you to give

17     me guarantees for a safe life in Trebinje.  I couldn't do that.  I myself

18     was shot at, my cousin was killed by the Serbian army, so I told him

19     there are no guarantees.  A lot of refugees came, a lot of bereaved

20     people, there's no control, people are armed, the state is in a state of

21     disrepair, who could control all that?  The second solution was for me to

22     get papers for me and my son to move abroad and for my family to move to

23     Serbia.  He received all the necessary papers and the Muslim who was a

24     member of the Municipal Board gave me these two papers, one from

25     Hasan Cengic and their president and there are no forgeries there at all.

Page 36018

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we scroll up a little and can we see page 2 in

 2     English where it says:

 3             "We assure you that this is not a road to uncertainty and a road

 4     to peril.  What is waiting for us there are reception centres," and so on

 5     and so forth.  "We will be distributed."

 6             What was the purpose of this order for people to leave Trebinje

 7     en masse?  What was the goal of the SDA?

 8        A.   I don't think that there was just one goal.  First of all, the

 9     Croatian flag and the Muslim flag were tied together.  The Yugoslav

10     People's Army had left and they were purported to be the guarantor of

11     peace, and all of a sudden there was a conflict between the Army of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO on the one side with us on the other side,

13     and in our unit we had 12 Muslims.  Obviously Alija Izetbegovic was

14     bothered by that.  The fact that their own men were fighting against

15     Muslims, and it was not just Alija who was bothered by that.  That's one

16     thing.

17             The second thing is that of course our international negotiations

18     were being undermined, the negotiations in Geneva, that is, and that was

19     one of the main objectives because as you know Mr. Izetbegovic said:  "I

20     will sacrifice peace in order to gain a sovereign Bosnia."  Why is that?

21     Muslims did not want to stay in Yugoslavia because they would have been a

22     minority there, and we could not accept to remain living in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina as a minority.  So that made a conflict inevitable.

24        Q.   Thank you.  How did you understand the investigation of the

25     international organisation which toured reception centres in Montenegro?

Page 36019

 1     What came out of that?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Just a caution -- well, let's monitor the response

 5     in light of how we approached this matter earlier.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder if Mr. Karadzic follows.  If Mr. Robinson

 7     could advise the accused.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer].

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Yeah, I didn't -- Excellency, I didn't mention the

10     organisation.

11             MR. TIEGER:  I was -- I wasn't --

12             THE ACCUSED:  [Overlapping speakers] --

13             MR. TIEGER:  Of course.  I wasn't and I wasn't suggesting that

14     Mr. Karadzic had breached any kind of confidentiality.  But simply now

15     that we're moving into this, there's very -- it's very ripe for the

16     possibility of the witness doing so inadvertently.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will leave that.  If

19     you do not know anything for a fact I'll leave it.

20             Can we go back to the previous page.  On line 10 on the previous

21     page you said that you had 12 Muslims in the Trebinje brigade.  How many

22     Muslims were there?

23        A.   412, Mr. President.  I suppose that they didn't hear me well.

24     412 Muslims in just one war brigade in Trebinje.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now go back to page 1 in this document, the

Page 36020

 1     first -- the very first page.  Let us look at this page, paragraph 2,

 2     where it says:

 3             "Sell some of the movable and immovable property or, if possible,

 4     leave it in the custody of reliable Serbs..."

 5             Did this really materialise?

 6        A.   To a large extent, yes.  Those Muslims who had close friends

 7     among the Serbs entrusted them with their houses and that's how Trebinje

 8     was preserved.  Not a single house was destroyed and there is a document

 9     issued by the international commissariat for refugees.  When they arrived

10     I got a letter of commendation for having been able to preserve all the

11     Muslim property.  Nothing was torched, nothing was destroyed.

12        Q.   And now we will ask you to send us that and we will bar table it.

13     Why did this Muslim ask you to meet in a wood, not in a house or in an

14     apartment?

15        A.   First of all, I thought that he was just provoking me.  He called

16     me during the night and we agreed that he -- that he would arrive at my

17     office the following day at 7.00 in the morning but he didn't.  And then

18     he again called me the following night and I told him you are a Muslim

19     and you're probably provoking me.  The answer was no.  He said I came

20     close to the municipality.  I was afraid if my people saw me entering

21     your office that wouldn't be good.  We met very close to the city.  There

22     was another person with him.  I did him a favour like I did to all the

23     others and that's when he handed me over the papers.

24        Q.   Can you now look at paragraph 3 where it says:

25             "Do not refrain from putting pressure or even force against those

Page 36021

 1     Muslims who do not act according to this order."

 2             Who would it have been to put pressure and what has this

 3     paragraph got to do with his request to meet in the wood?

 4        A.   First of all, he did -- would not -- didn't want to hand this

 5     over to me so that they could learn.  I'm -- still don't want to say his

 6     name.  I don't know what pressures would have taken place, what were the

 7     modalities that were designed.  I don't know.  In any case, they

 8     threatened their own people by force in order to make them leave

 9     Trebinje.  Where it says here that it was on the 12th of December and

10     then on the 30th of December, only six days later I spent the entire day

11     writing those passes.  Entire families came so we issued passes to the

12     families and then to the individuals if the individuals came, and then if

13     possible I would like to tell the following thing to this Trial Chamber:

14     When they asked for buses, I ordered that two Trebinje companies prepared

15     their buses, to have a police escorts, and before that the canyon of the

16     river Trebisnjica had to be secured in order to prevent any crimes from

17     happening, gentlemen.  And then they left en masse.  They did not need

18     any passes.  They were escorted by the police all the way to Montenegro,

19     to their destination there.  And there were no interviews of the kind

20     that we heard about the interviews that were purportedly published in

21     newspapers.  This is all fabrication, the things that we heard from the

22     Prosecutor.  There were no interviews given on the way.

23        Q.   I'm afraid that the dates are wrong.  Instead of 12th December it

24     should be 20 January.

25        A.   Yes, the 30th.

Page 36022

 1        Q.   So instead of December it has to be 20 December and -- 20 January

 2     and 30 January?

 3        A.   Yes.  I spent the entire day writing those passes --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Too fast, too fast.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have to make pauses.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber how far is Montenegro from you?

 8     Which is a majority population there, and who was the president of

 9     Montenegro at the time?

10        A.   The border of Montenegro is near Trebinje.  When it comes to the

11     border between Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina, it is between the

12     municipalities of Niksic and Trebinje.  From the centre of Trebinje to

13     Montenegro there is about 20 kilometres.  The president of Montenegro at

14     the time was Mr. Momir Bulatovic and the president of the government or

15     prime minister was Milo Djukanovic.  The majority population there are

16     Serbs, but they travelled in the direction of Osinja [phoen] where there

17     are municipalities with predominantly Muslim population.  They spent very

18     little time.  Everything had been organised.  Most of them went to

19     Denmark.  Some of them went to Turkey.  Very few of them went elsewhere.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   You're welcome.

22        Q.   And now tell me at that time was Montenegro independent?  What

23     state was that at the time?

24        A.   The abbreviation, or rather, it was a Rump Yugoslavia,

25     Mr. President.  It was a state of Montenegro and Serbia.

Page 36023

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Tieger mentioned that you had been charged with

 2     the events in Ravno.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber when did the

 3     fighting around Ravno take place?  Who was in charge?  Were you ever

 4     convicted for that?

 5        A.   Mr. President, just recently the second OG arrived.  A lot of

 6     troops and a lot of equipment arrived over night.  They were not billeted

 7     in the barracks which were in a good state of repairs and rather empty.

 8     They were billeted in a modern pensioners' home.  It was still not in use

 9     but it was very well equipped.  On the following morning when the

10     director of that retirement home which was still not in use came to me to

11     complain about the arrival of the troops, I drafted a request to them to

12     move to the barracks.  You received that request together with the rest

13     of the material.  Two high-ranked officers came to see me.  They enjoyed

14     all the privileges in the former state and they asked me who wrote this.

15     I said I did, and I told them read this and don't risk being arrested

16     during the day.  And I was reading, again the document is with your team.

17     It says here:

18             "Mr. Vucurevic, we are very sorry that you do not understand that

19     the Yugoslav People's Army has been de-politicised and that you do not

20     have to interfere with these matters.  You should read the order of the

21     federal secretary for national defence, the army General Veljko

22     Kadijevic, and then you will understand everything."

23             Under paragraph 3 it says that:

24             "There is a ban on any sort of politicisation, that civilians

25     must not come to the command post, that they must not mingle with the

Page 36024

 1     troops, and if any such thing would happen they should urgently be

 2     arrested and handed over to military courts."

 3             I'm sure that you have the original of that order because I gave

 4     it to you, so I really could not go there, let alone try and turn their

 5     barrels in the direction I wanted to.  For them we were a transitional

 6     measure from one day to the next.  They did not trust us.  They were

 7     communist.  Yugoslav People's Army conflicted with the Croatian

 8     paramilitaries on the 1st of October, 1991.  That was at Ivanica in the

 9     municipality of Trebinje which was my municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina

10     and Republika Srpska and when the Croatian paramilitaries killed 11

11     soldiers while they were having their breakfast, and then on the

12     following day they killed another seven, a total of 18.  That was not a

13     Serbo-Chetnik army.

14             Gentlemen, there was one Croat, one Muslim, four Albanians among

15     those who were killed among the troops.  What I'm saying here is that

16     they were members of the army from the then four republics and four

17     peoples of the former Yugoslavia, and then the army decided to retaliate.

18     The municipality of Ravno suffered a lot, but that was all far from us.

19     We did not interfere in any way.  Even if we had wanted to intervene we

20     couldn't.  We didn't dare do anything.  So any interference with the

21     matters of the command and the matters of the army when it came to the

22     civilian personnel, that was not allowed.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On page 27 it is stated that in 2004 you were removed

24     from the position as the vice-president of the Serbian Democratic Party

25     by the international commissioner.  Can you tell us whether you were the

Page 36025

 1     only one to whom that happened?  Were you removed because of something

 2     that had happened during the war or was there allegations against you

 3     about things that were happening at the time?

 4        A.   It was neither nor.  At that time the Serbian Democratic Party

 5     suffered blows from outside and from the inside, and then the high

 6     commissioner inappropriately removed from the Main Board a total of 58 of

 7     us all by issuing one document.  I apologise for counting myself among

 8     those most respectable members of the Serbian Democratic Party which

 9     suffered greatly as a result of that.  That was a huge blow against the

10     party, not against Bozidar Vucurevic or any other individual.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what were the main objections against those

12     members of the Serbian Democratic Party?  Did it have anything to do with

13     me?

14        A.   Well, it was written there that the implementation of the Dayton

15     Peace Accord, and there were lots of stories to that effect.

16        Q.   Mr. Vucurevic, did the two of us meet after 1996 when his

17     holiness Vasilije came?  Did we ever meet again?

18        A.   Yes, thank God, since the day before yesterday.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vucurevic, for everything, for your testimony, for

20     your co-operation, and for protecting your Muslim neighbours.  We are

21     proud of you.

22        A.   If you allow me to say this.  Ever since the JNA had left and

23     since we were unprepared and laid our hopes in this unfortunate army, on

24     the 18th of May, 1992, we had our border towards Croatia opened.

25     Overnight the regular Croatian army, because in the meantime Croatia was

Page 36026

 1     recognised, occupied 78 villages in my municipality and burned 788

 2     houses --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vucurevic, that's not necessary.

 4     Mr. Vucurevic --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please allow me -- all right.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's unnecessary, Mr. Vucurevic.  It's for

 7     the -- Mr. Karadzic to put questions if necessary.

 8             With respect to the last document, Mr. Karadzic, you referred to

 9     earlier to Exhibit D471.  In the meantime I compared that with this one,

10     1D7093, and found that the current one has three pages.  The previous one

11     does not have the third page which is titled -- entitled as "Appeal."  So

12     would you like to tender this document separately or would you like to

13     replace it?

14             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  If we could just tender the third page of 1D7093

16     as a separate document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But I need confirmation whether the two documents

18     are identical, first two pages, because English translation looked a bit

19     different each other.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, maybe we should admit the whole three pages

21     then.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we do that?

23             MR. TIEGER:  I think that keeps -- may even keep the record a

24     little bit straighter given the fact that they were -- these were

25     admitted on two separate occasions, so...

Page 36027

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit the last document as next D

 2     exhibit.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3173, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, Mr. Vucurevic.  That concludes your

 5     evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Given the time, the Chamber is minded to adjourn for

 8     the day and we'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.  Please have a safe journey

 9     back home.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I didn't understand

11     well.  Do you need me tomorrow?

12             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Please have a safe journey back home.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.53 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

17                           March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.