130403IT

Page 36415

1 members of the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is

2 the article in question. They also published a book about the

3 establishment of the Patriotic League where they described things in

4 detail.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber whose newspaper is the

6 "Oslobodjenje"?

7 A. It was published in Sarajevo, in the Federation of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war. One could not get it in the territory

9 of RS.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this document be

11 accepted.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3224, Your Honours.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

15 questions of Mr. Bjelica at this point.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bjelica.

20 A. Good morning, Ms. Gustafson.

21 Q. At paragraph 8 of your statement, you discuss the SAO Romanija.

22 You said that you were a member of the SAO Romanija Assembly, and you

23 stated that only one Assembly session was held at which Assembly bodies

24 and executive organs were elected, that they did not function later on so

25 that the existence of the SAO Romanija was declarative in character.

Page 36416

1 Now, you said there was only one SAO Romanija Assembly session.

2 When was that session?

3 A. I don't recall the precise date. It is true that there was only

4 one Assembly session of the SAO Romanija. The Assembly was established,

5 and the prime minister of the SAO government was elected. It never met

6 after that, however, because the seat of the SAO Romanija was in

7 Sarajevo, and members of the Assembly came from different municipalities,

8 not only from Sokolac. So as the situation developed and tensions rose,

9 there were no conditions in place to hold such Assembly session. So on

10 that session the SAO Romanija was proclaimed, but it never -- it was

11 never followed up by any other session.

12 Q. Could we have 65 ter 01473, please. Mr. Bjelica, these are

13 minutes of a session of the Assembly of the SAO Romanija held in Pale on

14 the 11th of December, 1991, and the first agenda item is adoption of the

15 decision on appointment of members of the SAO Romanija government. Is

16 this the session that you were referring to?

17 A. I know that a decision was made at that session to appoint

18 Mr. Blagojevic to be the prime minister as is stated here. So this is

19 most likely the session in question, although I'm not positive.

20 Q. Okay. If we go down to the -- towards the bottom of the page, it

21 says -- there's a statement by the representative from Sokolac, and it

22 says:

23 "At the last meeting we agreed that all candidates for ministers

24 should attend this session."

25 Now, that reference to at the last meeting indicates that there

Page 36417

1 was a previous session of the Assembly of the SAO Romanija; right? So

2 this would have been at least the second session?

3 A. No, it was not an Assembly session, the other meeting. It

4 says -- it is correct the Assembly of the SAO Romanija, but it is the

5 minutes of a meeting rather than of an Assembly session. It was probably

6 a smaller body which met representing the 22 municipalities. So it was

7 not an Assembly session. There was only one Assembly session, that is

8 certain, but there may have been other meetings held by the various

9 government candidates, but there was only one SAO Romanija Assembly

10 session. Perhaps this was a consultative meeting and that is what is

11 referred to as the previous one. Usually people are agreed upon, those

12 who will be in charge of activities in the municipalities, and they have

13 to agree on the assigning of position and which municipality will have

14 what position.

15 Q. Thank you. My time is very limited, which is why I interrupted

16 you. If you could try to keep your answers focused and concisely

17 directed to the question.

18 The -- now, you said that the SAO Romanija was declarative in

19 character. However, the SAO Romanija government, which was established

20 at this session, held government sessions and carried out government

21 activities, didn't it?

22 A. The government only issued certain communiques if they met and

23 there was a crisis and as needed. For example, Mr. Zugic, the minister

24 of information would issue such communiques or the

25 Prime Minister Drago Blagojevic. They may have issued a few communiques

Page 36418

1 for the public, and it always came from either the Ministry of

2 Information or the prime minister himself. There were no other

3 activities.

4 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 24874, please, and I

5 would tender the minutes of the Assembly, please.

6 JUDGE KWON: We will receive it.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6250, Your Honours.

8 MS. GUSTAFSON:

9 Q. Now, if we could go -- sorry. Mr. Bjelica, you can see this is

10 the government of the SAO Romanija work programme for 1992, and if we

11 could go to the next page in the B/C/S. It refers to the agreement

12 reached at the second session of the government of the SAO Romanija held

13 in Pale on the 15th of January, 1992. So that indicates that by the 15th

14 of January, the government of the SAO Romanija had held at least two

15 sessions?

16 A. I can't see.

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could slide the text over so that

18 Mr. Bjelica can see this.

19 Q. Can you read it now, Mr. Bjelica? And it says that all the

20 ministers of the government were obliged to produce 1992 working plans,

21 and then it gives details about what those plans were to cover.

22 A. [No interpretation]

23 Q. And if we could scroll through the document, you can see that

24 there are detailed plans for government -- SAO Romanija government

25 activities in the areas of economy, agriculture, forestry, industry and

Page 36419

1 energy.

2 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could scroll through the document so

3 Mr. Bjelica can at least see the headings.

4 Q. Traffic, spatial planning, finances, trade, tourism and catering,

5 health, information system, justice, science, education, culture, and

6 sport.

7 This document makes clear, Mr. Bjelica, that this was not just a

8 government that issued communiques. They were involved in governmental

9 activities; right?

10 A. No. I see this for the first time. As regards the SAO Romanija,

11 there was the association of municipalities of Han Pijesak, Sokolac,

12 Pale, and Rogatica which was then expanded, but it never came to life.

13 It had existed back in the times of Communism and the SFRY. There were

14 such districts encompassing associations of municipalities.

15 Now, this programme never saw the light of day, and I see it now

16 for the first time. This is completely new to me. But also there's

17 nothing special about it. It's a programme. Maybe drafted by the prime

18 minister. I don't know. I've never seen it, and I'm not familiar with

19 it.

20 Q. Well, let's look at something you have seen before. It's

21 65 ter 05360, the minutes of the Sokolac Crisis Staff session held on the

22 7th of May, 1992, and a document that is referenced in your statement at

23 paragraph 35.

24 You can see that the third item on the agenda for this meeting is

25 the status of ethnic Muslim workers. And if we go to page 2 of the

Page 36420

1 English and page 3 of the B/C/S. And this is the second paragraph from

2 the bottom in the English and the second paragraph from the top in the

3 B/C/S. There's an intervention by you. It says:

4 "Milovan Bjelica participated in the discussion and stressed that

5 it is necessary to deal with any kind of provocations immediately. He

6 proposed that the Muslim citizens who are military conscripts be called

7 up as well as to introduce a compulsory work service for them."

8 And then at page 3 of the English and page 4 of the B/C/S, so the

9 next page -- sorry, it's page 4 of the English as well. Directly the

10 last paragraph above item 4. It says:

11 "Concerning the suggestion of Milovan Bjelica that the ethnic

12 Muslim citizens be mobilised, it was concluded that the proposal needs

13 more consideration and that this question together with the question

14 about the loyalty of the Muslim citizens should be resolved uniformly at

15 the level of the SAO Romanija."

16 Now, Mr. Bjelica, you were at this meeting. This is a reflection

17 of the fact that the SAO Romanija was a decision-making body; right?

18 A. No. It's not correct. This is for the territory of the SAO

19 Romanija, including Ilijas, Olovo, Han Pijesak, et cetera. So it's the

20 same territory. I did propose that members of Muslim ethnicity be called

21 up who refused to respond to mobilisation to be assigned to work in the

22 companies of Romanija and Sumarstvo, the forestry company. This simply

23 encompasses the territory of the SAO Romanija, but it is not its document

24 or the body itself, the organisation itself.

25 Q. Mr. Bjelica, this document refers explicitly to the SAO Romanija

Page 36421

1 and says that a decision should be made at that level. Who else is going

2 to make a decision at the level of the SAO Romanija other than a body of

3 the SAO Romanija?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Can it be read out

5 precisely what needs to be done, because there is no word "decision" in

6 the text.

7 MS. GUSTAFSON: I read out the text. It's in front of the

8 witness.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may. As regards the proposal

10 of Milovan Bjelica, this is not my conclusion, but I did suggest that

11 Muslim conscripts be called up for work obligation. Based on this

12 proposal after thorough discussion at the meeting, it was concluded that

13 my proposal deserved a second thought and that at the level of the SAO

14 Romanija a uniform decision -- conclusion needs to be made in order to

15 take up position in terms of loyalty of Muslim citizens. This is not a

16 conclusion. There was war in the territory and the SAO Romanija could

17 not function because its seat was in Sarajevo in the federation. At that

18 time, it was controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the

19 Patriotic League, the Green Berets, and the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

20 and others. So it's got nothing to do with anything.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON:

22 Q. Mr. Bjelica, the government document we just referred to stated

23 that it was issued in Pale. So presumably just like the republic level

24 government, the SAO Romanija level government moved from Sarajevo to

25 Pale; no?

Page 36422

1 A. The president or the prime minister of the SAO Romanija

2 government lived in Sarajevo. That's perhaps why he invited several

3 colleagues and held a meeting. The seat was in Sarajevo. The Pale seat

4 was never made official.

5 As for the other institutions, for security reasons they had to

6 be moved to Pale. For the government of the SAO Romanija, it was not

7 necessary for it to function. It could not function because the

8 territory could not be reached like in Ilijas, Olovo, Stari Grad,

9 Novi Grad, Trnovo, all those municipalities that were members of the SAO

10 Romanija. So that's why the SAO Romanija could not function.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript don't reflect that

12 the territory was intersected. But your Excellencies, I'm looking at the

13 translation, and I can say that the translation does not reflect the

14 original. The translation is a bit creative. It's more of a summary

15 than the word-for-word translation of the original.

16 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could now go to 65 ter 19834, and I would

17 tender the government document we saw previously, which was 65 ter 05355.

18 JUDGE KWON: What's the 65 ter number of the previous document?

19 MS. GUSTAFSON: The one we just looked at is a Defence associated

20 exhibit so I don't tender that, but the one before that was 05355 -- oh,

21 sorry, 24874. My mistake.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

23 Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we object to the admission of this document

25 because the witness didn't say anything about it and hadn't seen it

Page 36423

1 before.

2 MS. GUSTAFSON: It's an impeachment document, Your Honour. The

3 witness stated that the SAO Romanija was -- organs were declarative in

4 character and the document indicate contrary.

5 MR. ROBINSON: We don't know anything about the provenance of the

6 document.

7 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow your statement, Mr. Robinson, about

8 the provenance.

9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.

10 JUDGE KWON: Are you challenging the authenticity of the

11 document?

12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. We don't know anything about the

13 authenticity. Perhaps the Prosecution can provide us with some

14 information about it, but since the witness had nothing to say about the

15 document, we don't have any information about its authenticity.

16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload that document again?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've not seen this document before.

18 JUDGE KWON: Although you didn't see this document before, do you

19 agree that this is a document produced by the SAO Romanija government

20 programme for 1992?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not at the Assembly. The

22 SAO Romanija Assembly met only once. I cannot accept this document. I

23 don't know anything about it. I've not seen this document before, so I

24 can't agree with it.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 36424

1 JUDGE KWON: At the moment we'll mark it for identification until

2 we hear more about the provenance of this document.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P6251, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE KWON: And you are not tendering 5360? That's admitted

5 already, yes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3227, Your Honours.

7 MS. GUSTAFSON:

8 Q. Now, I'll just change course slightly.

9 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 05355.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Bjelica, this is a document issued by the SAO Romanija

11 Ministry of Defence, dated the 10th of February, 1992, about obtaining

12 medical and sanitary equipment for the need of the wartime hospital. You

13 can see that it is signed and stamped by the vice-president of the

14 government, Milan Tupajic, the minister of defence, Dragomir Krstovic,

15 and the commander of the SAO Romanija Territorial Defence

16 Slobodan Batinic, and the document indicates that the SAO Romanija

17 ministry of defence had created a list of medical equipment needs for

18 wartime hospitals, was requesting assistance from the addressees in

19 procuring this assistance, and had assigned coordinators to procure the

20 requested equipment. Again, this is evidence that the SAO Romanija

21 government was a functioning governmental body, not just a body as you

22 stated that issued communiques; right?

23 A. I don't know. I've not seen this document before. I can't

24 comment upon it. I've not seen it before. There's nothing out of the

25 ordinary in it, but I've not seen it before. I was not a government

Page 36425

1 member. As far as I know, and as I've already told you, a communique

2 here and there was issued on behalf of the government, and as for the

3 Assembly, I've already told you what I know. I've not seen this document

4 before ever.

5 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this document.

6 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6252, Your Honours.

9 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go now to 65 ter 19834. And this

10 on the B/C/S is towards the bottom right-hand side of the document.

11 Q. Mr. Bjelica, this is an announcement by the SAO Romanija Crisis

12 Staff, stating that the Serbian people in this area have definitely lost

13 their confidence in the possibility of a political agreement with the

14 Muslim people.

15 Now, it is correct, is it not, that by the 5th of March, 1992,

16 when this announcement was issued that the SAO Romanija leadership had

17 lost confidence in any political agreement with the Muslims, isn't it?

18 A. Can the document please be zoomed in a little. I'm talking about

19 the article.

20 Q. Now, my question is, Mr. Bjelica, do you agree that by the 5th of

21 March, 1992, the SAO Romanija leadership had lost confidence in any

22 political agreement with the Muslims?

23 A. First of all, this was issued by the Crisis Staff of the

24 SAO Romanija. That did not exist. I don't know who issued this. As far

25 as I'm personally concerned, this article speaks about a body that did

Page 36426

1 not exist at all, this SAO Romanija Crisis Staff did not exist, but after

2 the member of Nikola Gardovic who was a wedding party member, the Serbs

3 started believing that they would see the same fate as in 1990 -- 40 and

4 1995 -- 1 and that they would all be killed. I agree with that.

5 And as for this article, I don't know who may have sent it to the

6 media, but I agree that the whole situation was reminiscent of the

7 slaughters that happened in 1914 and then in 1941, and that was an

8 additional reason for the Serbs to become more homogeneous, to try and

9 defend themselves, because after the killing of Nikola Gardovic who was a

10 wedding party guest, the authorities in Sarajevo did not react. They,

11 rather, let the murderer escape. On the 4th and on the 5th of March, I

12 believe that the president, President Karadzic --

13 Q. Mr. Bjelica?

14 A. I apologise. Yes.

15 Q. I'm interrupting you because your answer is straying far away

16 from my question, which was very simple. Let me put it this way: You

17 were shown this document in the Krajisnik case and you were asked whether

18 the SAO Romanija leadership had lost confidence in the possibility of any

19 political agreement with the Muslims, and you answered yes. That's what

20 you say in the Krajisnik case, and that's true; right? That's at 65 ter

21 2487 --

22 A. [Overlapping speakers] I said that, yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure the witness has answered correctly

25 because of the overlapping.

Page 36427

1 MS. GUSTAFSON:

2 Q. Mr. Bjelica, that's what you answered in the Krajisnik case, and

3 that's correct; right?

4 A. Please, this is what I said: When it comes to the SAO Romanija

5 Crisis Staff, I'm not familiar with that body, but I agree with the text

6 that I can see before me. After the murder of Nikola Gardovic, the

7 Serbian --

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bjelica, stop.

9 A. -- the wedding party member, the Serbs started fearing --

10 Q. Stop, Mr. Bjelica.

11 A. I want to answer.

12 Q. No, I'm asking the questions here.

13 A. Please do not -- do not raise your voice. I'm a witness here.

14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a witness here and I want to be

16 protected. I want to be protected here.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bjelica, you are fully protected. Don't worry

18 about it. Shall we upload the Krajisnik transcript.

19 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's 65 ter 24876, page 123.

20 Q. And at the top of the page you were asked:

21 "That is the case in SAO Romanija, isn't it, Mr. Bjelica, that by

22 the 5th of March, 1992, the leadership of SAO Romanija had lost

23 confidence in the possibility of any political agreement with Muslims?"

24 And then you start discussing the article. You say:

25 "I don't know who declared this or who [sic] signed this --"

Page 36428

1 JUDGE KWON: Given that the witness does not read English, read

2 it in full, please.

3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. I was just going to move to where he said

4 yes, and the question was:

5 "Now take your eyes away from the article and listen to the

6 question and answer the question. They had lost confidence in the

7 possibility of a political agreement with the Muslims, hadn't they?

8 "A. Yes.

9 JUDGE KWON: I think it's fair to read out the previous passage.

10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Certainly.

11 JUDGE KWON: He said:

12 "I don't remember this. I don't know who declared this or signed

13 this, whether this was Mr. Blagojevic or Djukic. I don't know. But at

14 any rate, this was not discussed at any forum. This was an announcement

15 of a personal kind."

16 That's what the witness said.

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Certainly, Your Honour, if you feel that he

18 should see that, that's fine.

19 And then the question was:

20 "Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Bjelica. You have to listen to my questions

21 and my question was specific. It was that the people, the Serb people of

22 SAO Romanija had lost confidence in the possibility of a political

23 agreement.

24 "Now take your eyes away from the article and listen to the

25 question and answer the question: They had lost confidence in the

Page 36429

1 possibility of a political agreement with the Muslims hadn't they?

2 "A. Yes."

3 That's what you said this Krajisnik; right?

4 A. And I'm repeating it today. I said it at the Krajisnik case. I

5 don't know who signed the document. I said that at the Krajisnik case,

6 and I am saying this today in the President Karadzic case. My statement

7 is still the same. You did not allow me to finish.

8 After the murder of Nikola Gardovic on the 5th of March, that's

9 the day you mentioned, and you asked me whether we lost confidence on the

10 4th and on the 5th of March. The apartments of well-known Serbs would be

11 marked, and that would be the dark night for the Serbs. Then

12 General Kukanjac and Alija Izetbegovic invited people to calm down, for

13 tensions to be lowered, because there was a state of general chaos among

14 the Serbian people in Sarajevo, and of course needless to say that the

15 confidence was lost because if a person was killed at a wedding and

16 nobody reacted, what could one expect? It happened before the eyes of

17 thousands of spectators. Still that person was not arrested. That

18 person, the murderer, he was allowed to walk free.

19 Q. If you could try to keep your answers concise and directly focus

20 on the question, please. I'd like 65 ter -- or sorry, P5802, please.

21 MR. ROBINSON: Is the Prosecution offering that article?

22 MS. GUSTAFSON: No.

23 Q. Mr. Bjelica, this is a transcript of a conversation between you

24 and Mr. Karadzic on the 13th of December, 1991, and before you read it,

25 you said at paragraph 24 of your statement that the Bosnian Serbs

Page 36430

1 supported the JNA and that several companies from Sokolac went to the

2 Croatian front at the orders of the command. In fact, you and

3 Dr. Karadzic in 1991 were directly involved in sending forces to the

4 Croatian front, weren't you?

5 A. Not correct. Mr. Karadzic did not participate in that at all.

6 Why would the party president be involved in sending troops to the front

7 line in Croatia in 1991? It's not correct.

8 Q. If I could ask you to just read this conversation before I ask

9 you the next question. It's quite short. You can just read it to

10 yourself. It's three pages.

11 JUDGE KWON: Five pages.

12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, three in the English, five in the B/C/S.

13 Q. If we can just scroll through so that you can read it.

14 A. As for this document, this document is an intercept of a

15 conversation between myself and Mr. Karadzic, and then the president of

16 the municipality got involved in the conversation. This is about

17 mobilisation, the mobilisation of the 216 Motorised Mountain Brigade. It

18 is correct that President Karadzic advocated the policy of preserving

19 Yugoslavia and of supporting the Yugoslav People's Army, because the

20 Yugoslav People's Army was the guarantor of peace and the survival of the

21 people in the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. The

22 216th Motorised Brigade had its zone of responsibility in Romanija. It

23 was mostly replenished from -- by people from Sokolac, Han Pijesak, and

24 Vlasenica. In Vlasenica there was a large number of Muslims who --

25 Q. I'm going to interrupt you because I didn't ask you about the

Page 36431

1 zone of responsibility of the 216th Brigade.

2 When Dr. Karadzic says to you: "Do you have any spare troops?

3 Could you send one company to Uzelac?," and you respond: "Right now,

4 Doctor, I can't until I've checked. We have two more units in

5 Minici [phoen] and Vukovar," it's clear that whether or not this is

6 talking about the JNA or not, you and Dr. Karadzic, two SDS officials,

7 are involved in sending forces to fight in Croatia, aren't you?

8 A. The JNA, the 216th Motorised Mountain Brigade under the command

9 of General Milosevic and -- no, no. That's not correct. You are

10 misinterpreting things. We encouraged them. I personally invited

11 military conscripts to report to the legal unit of the JNA to defend the

12 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia in Croatia. The JNA was

13 still active in the territory of Yugoslavia. I don't know about

14 Slovenia. In any case, they were there to defend the state that we took

15 our oath to. I asked them to join the legal army and to replace those

16 who deserted and who were Muslims and who deserted from the ranks. I

17 wanted to replenish the formation, the battalion who had to Vukovar on

18 the orders of the Supreme Command of the Socialist Federative Republic of

19 Yugoslavia, i.e., the General Staff in Belgrade. They had a chain of

20 command, and when a superior command sent people to a certain locality,

21 they had to go.

22 Q. Thank you. Your position is clear. At paragraph 28 of your

23 statement, you said the Sokolac Crisis Staff was formed according to the

24 instructions of the RS government to form Crisis Staffs, and you refer to

25 Exhibit D2676, those government instructions.

Page 36432

1 Now, under the terms of your own sworn statement, that

2 proposition is impossible because the government instructions you refer

3 to are dated the 26th of April, 1992, and you discuss in your statement

4 numerous Crisis Staff documents dated well before this time, for example,

5 D3176, a Crisis Staff order from the 10th of April.

6 Now, you agree with me that it's impossible that the Sokolac

7 Crisis Staff which was clearly functioning as of the 10th of April could

8 have been formed pursuant to government instructions dated the 26th of

9 April?

10 A. I have my reservations. I can't remember the date. That's what

11 I always repeat. I can't remember that it was set up on the 26th of

12 April. The Crisis Staff acted in lieu of local authorities up until the

13 summer of 1992, and then the executive power duties were assumed by the

14 executive council. In any -- in any case, members of the Crisis Staff

15 elected -- were elected by virtue --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

17 It's impossible to interpret.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bjelica, you're speaking too fast for the

19 interpreters to follow. Could you repeat your answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor is speeding. When

21 it comes to the Crisis Staff, the Crisis Staff in Sokolac was set up in

22 the spring of 1992, and it consisted of the president of the Municipal

23 Assembly, the president of the Executive Board, the chief of the public

24 security station -- yes.

25 Q. I didn't ask you about the composition of the Crisis Staff. It

Page 36433

1 was a very simple question. Do you agree with me that it is impossible

2 that the Sokolac Crisis Staff, which was clearly functioning as of the

3 10th of April, 1992, was established pursuant to government instructions

4 dated the 26th of April, 1992?

5 A. I said the spring of that year, the spring of 1992. I don't know

6 if what -- if it was on the 26th of April, the 1st of April, the 1st of

7 May, the 25th of May, I'm not sure. And I already told you that I am not

8 sure about the date. I can't remember the date.

9 Q. Your own statement references numerous Crisis Staff documents

10 dated well before the 26th of April. Do you now deny the authenticity of

11 those documents that you commented on and were tendered through you?

12 A. No, I'm not denying. I'm not denying any document that I

13 commented upon, but you would have to jog my memory about the date.

14 That's the only thing in dispute. I may be wrong about the dates, but

15 I'm not denying knowledge about any of the documents.

16 Q. I am jogging your memory, Mr. Bjelica. I'm telling you that the

17 documents in your statement indicate that the Sokolac Crisis Staff was

18 functioning as of the 10th of April, 1992. Now, do you agree that it's

19 impossible that that Crisis Staff was established pursuant to government

20 instructions dated the 26th of April, 1992?

21 A. I don't understand the question. Please clarify.

22 Q. In light of the time, Mr. Bjelica, I'm going to move on.

23 Now, at paragraph 18 of your statement you said that as far as

24 you know, the Variant A and B document was never delivered to the

25 authorities in the entire Romanija region. The Chamber has received

Page 36434

1 evidence indicating that at the end of December 1991, a Serb Municipal

2 Assembly was created in Rogatica pursuant to the Variant A and B

3 instructions, and that's P3407. In other words, Variant A and B was

4 received and implemented in Rogatica according to the documents.

5 Now, did you know about that?

6 A. I talked about Sokolac. I did not talk about Rogatica and I

7 don't know what happened in Rogatica. I know that this document was not

8 in Sokolac, and that's what I said at President Krajisnik's trial too,

9 and I also sent an official letter to you from the directorate of the

10 Serb Democratic Party stating that this document was never before any one

11 of the organs of the party. It was never discussed at any one of the

12 organs of the party.

13 Now, for a number of pensioned officers to write this document

14 and to send that to their compatriots in certain areas, well, the

15 document as far as I found out later, it was actually copied from a

16 document that was created by Croatian and Muslim officers for their

17 municipalities where they were in the position that the Serbs were in

18 where this document was found, but this is not a document of the Serb

19 Democratic Party.

20 Q. Well, that's --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please. In line 13, it

22 was not recorded correctly. The witness said "I sent you an official

23 document from the Serb Democratic Party." It wasn't to the Serb

24 Democratic Party.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I sent it to the Office of the

Page 36435

1 Prosecutor when I was director of the Serb Democratic Party, and it's

2 been over ten years.

3 MS. GUSTAFSON:

4 Q. Let's look at that letter. That's 65 ter 24873. On page 1

5 there's a letter from the ICTY Prosecution asking for a distribution list

6 for the 19 December 1991 Main Board instructions, otherwise known as

7 Variant A and B. And then your letter is attached.

8 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 3 of this document.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask whether Variant A

10 and B is mentioned at all in Prosecutor Blewitt's letter? I haven't

11 found it anywhere.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot follow what the

13 witness is saying because he spoke at the same time Mr. Karadzic spoke.

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bjelica, when Mr. Karadzic's words are being

15 translated, please refrain from making any statements.

16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honours, I think it's common ground that the

17 19 December 1991 SDS Main Board instructions for the organisation and

18 activity organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina is the

19 Variant A and B document.

20 JUDGE KWON: Very well, let's continue.

21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Excuse me, Mr. President. With respect to

22 this particular document, we are going to object to its use at this trial

23 because it was not disclosed to us until yesterday, and we had made a

24 motion pursuant to Rule 66(B) which you had granted ordering the

25 Prosecution to have disclosed all documents authored by witnesses,

Page 36436

1 enumerated witnesses, including this one, and there was a dead-line for

2 that that was I think about a year ago and this document was not

3 disclosed, and so given that we didn't see it until yesterday we would

4 ask that it not be used and not be admitted.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mm-hmm. Can I hear from you, Ms. Gustafson.

6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. Your Honour, I'm somewhat surprised. This

7 objection is true. This document was disclosed yesterday. This document

8 was a public exhibit in the Krajisnik case, and it was in fact shown to

9 this witness in the Krajisnik case and discussed in his testimony. I

10 would assume that the Defence would have read this witness's prior

11 testimony in the Krajisnik case. If they were interested in this

12 document, it was readily available to them. When I -- that -- and in

13 fact that is exactly how it came to my attention, from my reading of the

14 Krajisnik testimony. Then when I saw the document, I realised it had no

15 ERN number and that led me to think it may not have been picked up in our

16 earlier searches and I asked that it be disclosed immediately, which it

17 was, and the Defence had at least some time to incorporate this document

18 into their preparations. And, again, in any event this is entirely --

19 the position that the witness has stated in this document is exactly the

20 position he stated in his prior testimony which the Defence has, so

21 there's no prejudice here and this objection has no real merit.

22 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, we can see how easy it is for

23 people to miss --

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

25 Yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 36437

1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We can see how easily it is

2 for people to miss things since the Prosecution missed this during its

3 disclosure searches for this witness and we also missed it, so we

4 don't -- we apologise for the fact that we didn't pick it up. But

5 nevertheless, it was required to have been disclosed to us a long time

6 ago, so I would ask that you first make a finding that the Prosecution

7 has violated Rule -- it's disclosure obligations under Rule 66(B) by

8 failing to provide this document within the prescribed time.

9 With respect to prejudice, again, it's something that we should

10 have seen, but we have over 2 million pages of disclosure already, and

11 we -- it's easy for us to miss things, and we don't think that the issue

12 of prejudice ought to be determinative. If the Prosecution had disclosed

13 this earlier to us we wouldn't have missed, so it's our position that it

14 should be excluded and there should be an explicit finding of disclosure

15 violation. Thank you.

16 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber would like to read it, but the Chamber

19 will rise for 15 minutes and resume at 25 past. We will have another 15

20 minutes' break before the lunch break.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.34 a.m.

23 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, Your Honour. I just wanted to inform the

24 Court: As I mentioned earlier, I ensured that this document when I came

25 across it was disclosed out of an abundance of caution because it had no

Page 36438

1 ERN number, so I wasn't sure it had been disclosed previously. While the

2 Court was recessing we've checked our records and the document was

3 disclosed on the 25th of January, 2013, it had an ERN number and was

4 disclosed then to the Defence.

5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. So obviously we don't know

6 what we have and what we don't have and I apologise for that. We accept

7 the fact that it was disclosed.

8 JUDGE KWON: But further, Mr. Robinson, you referred to

9 Rule 66(B) disclosure. Yes, I'm looking at this, because we do not have

10 access to the e-court while we are logged on in the courtroom. Yes,

11 indeed, you referred to Rule 66(B) disclosure, but in your previous

12 motion this witness was never listed as Defence witness.

13 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, this witness was included

14 in a letter of the 10th of August, 2012, specifically as number six of

15 witnesses whom the Prosecution had undertaken to provide in addition to

16 those that were listed in the Chamber's order. So he was covered by the

17 Rule 66(B )request but not specifically mentioned in your order.

18 JUDGE KWON: Very well. In any event, it resolves everything.

19 Shall we continue.

20 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Bjelica, if we could go -- well, you can see it if we go to

23 the next page in the English just to look at the last two sentences of

24 this letter that you wrote in November 2001 where it says that the

25 Main Board, as well as any other SDS body, never considered or instructed

Page 36439

1 the organisation and activation of Serb people in BiH at its sessions.

2 We were informed that such instructions with given by a certain number of

3 retired officials -- officers, sorry, of the former Yugoslav People's

4 Army. Now, is that still your position regarding the Variant A and B

5 document today?

6 A. Yes, I signed this document too.

7 Q. The Chamber has received a great deal of evidence to the

8 contrary, and I would refer to P2589, the references at paragraphs 20 to

9 30 of that report, and that evidence includes SDS members speaking openly

10 about the Variant A and B instructions at Assembly sessions.

11 Now, at this point you had been -- when you wrote this letter in

12 2001 you were the director of the SDS as you said, and you have been an

13 SDS member more or less since its inception. Now, you must have known,

14 Mr. Bjelica, that what you were saying here is false and you were just

15 putting forward what was then the party line about this document; right?

16 A. That is not correct, what you said just now, because not in any

17 archives, nowhere in the archives of the Serb Democratic Party was this

18 document found as received, registered, or that it was discussed by the

19 party organs. So it is not reflected in any one of the records.

20 Now, whether somebody distributed it personally, privately, that

21 I don't know, but it's not in the organs of the party and that is clearly

22 stated in this letter, in this reply that was sent. Nowhere. I stand by

23 what I said.

24 Q. Now, when you said it was never discussed by the party organs, I

25 guess you're not aware of the speech of the Jajce municipal president at

Page 36440

1 the 33rd Assembly session where he said:

2 "If we go back a little and recall the material which came from

3 the Main Board for work in the field, there was Variant A, Variant B."

4 And then he says:

5 "When according to instructions we were to form the Serbian

6 municipality of Jajce on the orders of Dr. Karadzic and yourself," and

7 he's speaking to Mr. Krajisnik, "I conducted talks with all the Assembly

8 men in the joint Assembly who were Serbs," and then he refers to speaking

9 to Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik in Sarajevo about what he was to do to

10 implement the instructions.

11 That's P1377, page 148.

12 You're not aware of that discussion at a party organ about the

13 Variant A and B document, are you?

14 A. No, I'm not aware of that, because nowhere is there any record of

15 this kind of discussion at an Assembly meeting. I'm talking about what

16 is official. It is not contained in any document. And now somebody

17 taking part in a discussion, not all discussions are reflected in the

18 record. Perhaps this was an informal conversation, but I claim to you

19 with full responsibility that in the archives of the Serb Democratic

20 Party this document does not exist.

21 Q. In we could go to 65 ter 05382, please.

22 JUDGE KWON: If I could intervene, Ms. Gustafson.

23 Do you see the last paragraph here, Mr. Bjelica? The last

24 sentence. You said, I quote:

25 "We were informed that such instructions were given by a certain

Page 36441

1 number of retired officers of the former Yugoslav People's Army."

2 I find it very unclear. Could you expand what you meant by this?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a responsible individual and as

4 director of the directorate of the Serb Democratic Party, the ruling

5 party in that period of time when this document was requested, respecting

6 this institution of the court and of the Office of the Prosecutor, I

7 asked a number of friends from the party whether they knew anything about

8 this document because it wasn't contained in the archives. I asked the

9 then minister of defence, Mr. Subotic, Bogdan Subotic, General Subotic, I

10 asked him whether he knew anything about this document. General Subotic,

11 Bogdan, said to me that this document was never adopted, never

12 considered, but he knew that a number of retired officers of the former

13 JNA wrote this document on their own and that they allegedly sent it to a

14 number of people in certain municipalities that they had originally

15 hailed from and that in such way as persons with experience, military

16 experience, they sent this document to the places where they had come

17 from.

18 JUDGE KWON: So first question for you, Mr. Bjelica, is that when

19 you said "we were informed," the informant was Mr. Subotic? Is that what

20 you're saying?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Because I investigated

22 the matter in order to give the most complete answer possible to this

23 institution.

24 JUDGE KWON: And what did you mean by a certain number of retired

25 officers? How many of them, and then who are they?

Page 36442

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know. That's

2 what General Subotic said to me, Bogdan. I did not investigate it

3 further. I was asked whether there was any such thing in the archives of

4 the Serb Democratic Party, whether such a document had been registered,

5 and I claim with full responsibility that it hadn't.

6 JUDGE KWON: As a responsible person, as you said, I would have

7 expected you to ask Mr. Subotic who were they, who they were. Why did

8 you not ask Mr. Subotic further?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the question that was put to

10 me was whether this was contained in the archives of the Serb Democratic

11 Party and whether there were minutes from the session of the Assembly

12 where this matter had been considered. No. But in order to help in

13 terms of this answer where this document came from, then I did ask a

14 number of people from the party. Most of them were not aware of this

15 document. And then I asked the most adequate person as far as this issue

16 was concerned in my view, General Bogdan Subotic, who was minister of

17 defence during the war, and this is the answer that he gave to me.

18 JUDGE KWON: And still now at this moment, you do not know who

19 they were and how it was circulated?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you. Back to you, Ms. Gustafson.

22 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 05382, and I would tender

23 this letter.

24 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

Page 36443

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6253, Your Honours.

2 MS. GUSTAFSON:

3 Q. Mr. Bjelica, this is a document that reproduces the text of an

4 article from Tanjug on the 17th of May, 1992, and under number 1 and it

5 indicates that Tanjug reported that a meeting was held in Sokolac on the

6 17th of May, 1992, with representatives of the government of the RS, the

7 Serb autonomous region of Romanija, municipalities of Olovo and Rogatica,

8 and representatives of the Belgrade-based association of the citizens of

9 Romanija region, and it indicates that Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and

10 General Mladic were in attendance.

11 Now, such a meeting did take place on the 17th of May, 1992, in

12 Sokolac; right?

13 A. It is correct that this meeting was held in Sokolac on the 17th

14 of May, 1992.

15 Q. And it's correct that at this meeting Dr. Karadzic,

16 Mr. Krajisnik, and General Mladic all addressed the attendees, although

17 it was primarily Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic who spoke; is that

18 right?

19 A. This meeting was held at the initiative of a number of our fellow

20 citizens who live in Serbia, Montenegro. When the crisis started, they

21 came. They were in certain positions in Serbia, and some of them were in

22 the business community, others worked in some institutions of the Federal

23 Republic of Yugoslavia at the time, and they came to get some information

24 to see how they could help their own people a bit. Primarily in terms of

25 organising activities that were aimed at providing food and so on, and

Page 36444

1 they asked for a meeting with the leadership of Republika Srpska and --

2 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. My question was: At this meeting

3 Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and General Mladic all addressed the

4 attendees, but it was primarily Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic who

5 spoke; right?

6 A. Perhaps in terms of the questions that were being put. Most of

7 them who had come were saying what was -- what could be done, whether

8 Yugoslavia could be preserved, what could be done to help, and it was

9 probably in response to some of these questions, and certainly they were

10 not in charge of this meeting. This meeting was organised in the

11 municipality of Sokolac and it was attended by members of the

12 neighbouring municipalities, heads of the municipalities, MPs,

13 businessmen. Perhaps there were over 50 of us at that meeting. And

14 representatives of the church and so on.

15 Q. I'm going to remind you about what you said in the Krajisnik case

16 about this meeting on this point, and that's at 65 ter 24876, page 22638.

17 You were asked by Judge Orie:

18 "You mentioned the president of the republic. Did he address the

19 meeting?

20 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 "JUDGE ORIE: You mentioned the president of the Assembly. Did

22 he address the meeting?

23 "THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they all said something. It

24 was primarily the president of the republic and the commander of the

25 Main Staff, General Mladic, who were primarily asked to address the

Page 36445

1 audience. Then Mr. Krajisnik took the floor, he made a contribution, and

2 some other people also asked to take the floor. However,

3 President Karadzic and General Mladic had the main say at the meeting.

4 They were the keynote speakers."

5 That's what you said in Krajisnik about this meeting and that's

6 correct; right?

7 A. That's right, because most of the questions were addressed to

8 them and then they answered those questions. So I don't see anything in

9 dispute as far as this meeting is concerned. This is a regular meeting.

10 This is a meeting where information was being provided to a number of

11 important people about the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Yugoslavia,

12 and so on and so forth, nothing special. And nothing spectacular

13 happened there and no decisions were being made. I think it was a useful

14 meeting.

15 Q. Okay. This article under point 3 quotes from Dr. Karadzic

16 stating:

17 "We know exactly what we want. We want our state in

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And if they want to take Bosnia-Herzegovina out of

19 Yugoslavia, we want to take our state out of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

20 And under number 4:

21 "We must continue the transformation of the JNA triggered off by

22 Alija Izetbegovic when he suggested to Muslims and Croats that they

23 should not join the ranks of the JNA."

24 Do you recall Dr. Karadzic saying words along these lines at the

25 meeting?

Page 36446

1 A. This is a newspaper article. Nobody kept any minutes over there.

2 It is possible that President Karadzic said that we were striving for

3 preserving Yugoslavia and that we supported the Yugoslav People's Army.

4 It was quite certain already then that the JNA had no place in the area

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Serb people -- rather, the Assembly of the

6 Serb republic passed a decision to the effect that on the 12th of May,

7 five or six days before this meeting, that the army of the Serb republic

8 be established. Now, was it the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina or

9 was it just the Serb republic? I'm not sure. Then this meeting followed

10 at the request of a number of business people and people who cared about

11 the area where they came from. After this a decision was made to

12 establish the Army of Republika Srpska and to have the JNA withdrawn.

13 They were concerned about what would happen to the Serb people in this

14 area, and that is what President Karadzic and General Mladic were asked

15 about.

16 And now if the Muslims wanted to get Bosnia-Herzegovina out of

17 Yugoslavia by force, then certainly the Serb Republic of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina would ask for the rest in Yugoslavia, and that is what

19 we stated by way of a plebiscite, that we would remain in Yugoslavia.

20 This is a position, and if it was presented, it is based on the

21 referendum question that was responded to by the people in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that they wished to remain in Yugoslavia --

23 Q. Thank you. I think your answer's quite clear now. Now, just one

24 last question. There were journalists present at this meeting; right?

25 A. Later, after the meeting somebody made a statement. It was

Page 36447

1 Mr. Krajisnik, but journalists did not attend the meeting itself.

2 Q. Okay. So just if I could remind you of what you said in the

3 Krajisnik case and we can get this clear. This is at page 22637 of the

4 transcript. You were talking about Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic, and

5 you said:

6 "When they started to leave, they may have been stopped by a

7 journalist."

8 And then you were asked:

9 "That's what I wanted to ask you about, the contact with a

10 journalist, one or more journalists. Did you listen to Mr. Krajisnik or

11 Dr. Karadzic's conversations with those journalists?"

12 And you said:

13 "No."

14 That's -- is that a correct understanding of the role of

15 journalists at this meeting?

16 A. Well, yes, when they came out of the meeting. That's what I said

17 a moment ago. They were not in the meeting hall. They were in front of

18 the meeting hall. Once the meeting was over, it was logical that

19 someone, and in particular Krajisnik, Mladic, and Karadzic, provided a

20 statement to the journalists because that's what they were waiting for.

21 That's what I said. They provided statements after the meeting was over.

22 I can't say exactly who spoke to the journalists because it's only now

23 that you've reminded me. I seem to have forgotten it. But you did jog

24 my memory somewhat. Thank you for that.

25 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this document.

Page 36448

1 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6254, Your Honours.

4 MS. GUSTAFSON:

5 Q. Now, Mr. Bjelica, at paragraph 54 of your statement you spoke

6 about detention facilities in Sokolac and you said that Muslims suspected

7 of taking part in sabotage and terrorist operations were detained in the

8 elementary school in Sokolac, Cavarine and Knezina, and also at paragraph

9 54 you said in relation to these facilities:

10 "I assume that the detained persons did not have the required

11 hygiene and other facilities in such premises since they were not

12 envisaged for such purpose."

13 Now, at paragraph 65 of your statement, this is information that

14 you provided over the weekend, you were asked about adjudicated facts

15 relating to the Cavarine detention facility, and you said:

16 "As far as I know, hygiene was satisfactory."

17 Now, you're saying two contradictory things about Cavarine in

18 your statement, first that hygienic facilities were inadequate and second

19 that hygiene was satisfactory. Those are contradictory statements about

20 this facility; right?

21 A. As far as I know from my contacts with the members of the VRS,

22 units of the VRS did have temporary prisons where they temporarily held

23 POWs or other people who were believed to have engaged in sabotage and

24 terrorist activities and espionage. In such detention units, there were

25 also people of Serb ethnicity who had committed a breach of discipline or

Page 36449

1 an offence, things such as not responding to call-up, theft, or something

2 of the sort. In such detention units Serbs and Muslims were held

3 together.

4 Q. I didn't ask you to give me --

5 A. And Croats --

6 Q. -- all the information you have about these facilities. It was a

7 very specific question. You are saying contradictory things about the

8 Cavarine detention facility. On the one hand you said, "I assume --" you

9 said, "I assume that the detained persons did not have the required

10 hygienic and other facilities," and on the other hand, you're saying, "As

11 far as I know hygiene was satisfactory." Those two statements are

12 contradictory, aren't they?

13 A. No, please. It is true that hygiene measures were not

14 satisfactory and later on toilets were introduced. It was up to

15 ABiH [as interpreted] units to install showers and bathrooms. There were

16 many Serbs who were detained as well. This goes for the school as well,

17 because it was not supposed to have been used as a detention unit. It

18 was an abandoned facility that was used by the security organs of the

19 2nd Romanija Brigade. Well, no one had fell ill there or had jaundice or

20 anything. They all shared the same food as the army. The soldiers

21 received the same food the detainees did. There was a kitchen in Knezina

22 and the food was there -- taken from there to the front lines and to the

23 detention units. Everyone received the same food. It is true that such

24 things did not exist at the beginning, but as the number of detainees

25 increased then showers were installed in order to improve hygiene. So no

Page 36450

1 one complained of everything, nor did people have skin conditions there,

2 skin diseases. Later on they were all exchanged and were safe and sound.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An intervention for the transcript.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 25, page 37, these are not

6 units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They're not to be confused with

7 the ABHO unit which is a service. They offer protection of -- in terms

8 of nuclear and biological and chemical threats. In any case, it's not

9 the ABiH.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nuclear, biological, chemical

11 protection. That's the name of such units. They were present there, and

12 they --

13 MS. GUSTAFSON:

14 Q. Mr. Bjelica, you didn't visit any of these detention facilities

15 and see the conditions first-hand, did you?

16 A. That is correct. I did not. I said that I had contacts with the

17 VRS members and that's where my information came from. That's what I

18 said. I never entered any such premises. It was under the control of

19 security organs and no one had any business being there.

20 Q. If we could go to 65 ter 19836, please. Now, this is a statement

21 given by a woman named Sema Mujanovic, born on the 5th of May, 1930, in

22 Knezina, a housewife, so in 1992, when the events that she talks about

23 occurred, she was a 62-year-old housewife then living in Sahbegovici.

24 And at page one on both languages in the second paragraph, she explains

25 how on the 28th of July, 1992, Chetniks entered her village of

Page 36451

1 Sahbegovici and captured six men and six women including herself, and

2 they were taken to the Sokolac primary school.

3 And if we go to the next page in the English and near the bottom

4 of the page in B/C/S --

5 A. As far as I can see, they only took her. I see this statement

6 for the first time.

7 Q. Well, in any event, in this paragraph on the next page in the

8 English and at the bottom of the B/C/S, she identified 18 other prisoners

9 detained with her in the Sokolac primary school. And on the next page in

10 the English and also the next page in the B/C/S, around the middle of the

11 page in both texts, she says:

12 "After exactly 65 days in prison, the Chetniks moved all the

13 prisoners in the school to the village of Cavarine."

14 And this would have been in early October based on the dates in

15 her statement.

16 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to 65 ter 06947.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness receive a question

18 about this document so as not to amass documents that the purported

19 question refers to?

20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, the next document is related.

21 Q. This is a letter from the Sokolac exchange commission to the

22 president of the VRS exchange commission Dragan Bulajic, and it states

23 that the following POWs detained in the Sokolac prison are put at your

24 disposal. And you can see that number 8 on the list is Sema Mujanovic,

25 and there are 17 other prisoners including a number whom she had

Page 36452

1 identified as being detained with her.

2 Now, at paragraph 54 of your statement, you said that as far as

3 you know, Muslims who were suspected of taking part in sabotage and

4 terrorist operations were detained in these facilities, and you made a

5 similar claim at paragraph 65.

6 Did you know that a 62-year-old housewife from Sahbegovici was

7 imprisoned first in Sokolac elementary school and then in Cavarine?

8 A. No, I didn't. I see this for the first time. I don't know what

9 the reason for her detention was since there were women who participated

10 in the war, taking part in operations, carrying weapons, and setting up

11 explosives. I do not exclude the possibility that she was one of them.

12 No one says here why she was detained, and she doesn't mention that in

13 her statement.

14 Q. In fact, Mr. Bjelica, you don't have a clue as to why any of the

15 people on this list here were detained. Isn't that right?

16 A. No, I wasn't interested. It was up to the security organ, and I

17 had no right to meddle in her activities and why they were detained.

18 They must have taken part in certain activities. There were other

19 inhabitants who were certainly not detained. There must have been a

20 reason why they were brought in, a justified reason.

21 Q. Mr. Bjelica, you have said that you saw in relation to both these

22 documents I showed you, you said that this is the first time you've seen

23 these documents. That's not actually true. You were shown both of these

24 documents in the Krajisnik case, and in relation to this document in

25 front of you now --

Page 36453

1 A. It is possible. I'm saying here in this courtroom that I see it

2 for the first time, but back then it didn't mean anything. Why would I

3 have remembered it? It was the work of security organs. People were

4 interviewed and then put on the list of the exchange commission.

5 Mr. Bulajic was in Lukavica, and he was -- he put them on the list for

6 exchange.

7 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness kindly repeat the end of

8 his answer.

9 MS. GUSTAFSON:

10 Q. Mr. Bjelica, I hadn't actually asked you a question yet. The

11 question I wanted to ask you was that, as I said, you were shown these

12 two documents in the Krajisnik case, and when you had this document on

13 the screen in front of you, you were asked and this is at page 22721 of

14 the transcript:

15 "But the reason I present that to you is to ask you this question

16 and put it to you that in fact the Muslims detained in these facilities

17 we've described, they were not POWs, but they were civilians, and

18 Ms. Sema Mujanovic is an example of that; correct?"

19 And your answer was:

20 "Believe me, I don't know. I can't confirm this. I never heard

21 of any of these people or most of them. I don't know whether they had

22 been armed. I don't know what is at stake. I really can't be a judge of

23 that. I haven't a clue."

24 That's what you said in the Krajisnik case and that's the truth;

25 right?

Page 36454

1 A. Please, what did I say a moment ago other than that? I don't

2 know why they were brought in. There must have been a reason for their

3 bringing in. For example, number 8, Sema Mujanovic. Perhaps someone

4 knew she had done something. It was the assessment of the security organ

5 that she was of interest because she had taken part in certain

6 activities. That is why she was interviewed, and then she was offered

7 for an exchange after a while. That's all I said. I said in my

8 introduction that I knew from my contacts with VRS members that those

9 were the premises used for detention used by the security organ of the

10 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. That's all I can say.

11 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this document, and I'd also like to

12 tender the transcript page I just referred to.

13 MR. ROBINSON: No objection, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE KWON: You are not tendering the statement itself?

15 MS. GUSTAFSON: No.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will receive them both.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 06947 will be

18 Exhibit P6255 and the transcript will be Exhibit P6256.

19 MS. GUSTAFSON:

20 Q. Mr. Bjelica, at paragraph 57 of your statement, you talked about

21 the massacre of Muslim civilians in Novoseoci in September of 1992, and

22 you spoke about an incident several years later where you met an

23 acquaintance whose son had committed suicide, and he said to you, "I

24 cannot get over my son's death. This was a great tragedy. See what

25 Krstic did to us? He took our children to Novoseoci."

Page 36455

1 Now, you understood from this conversation that it was

2 Radislav Krstic who had issued the order to kill these civilians; right?

3 A. Yes. Based on that conversation. That was my understanding at

4 the time, that he took the guys there. I was so told by the father of

5 one of them who had killed himself. I didn't even know his son was

6 there. As I said in the statement, that was all I knew. The father of

7 that young boy told me that.

8 Q. And at paragraph 57 of your statement, you said that you are

9 certain that no one from the Sokolac Municipal Assembly knew about the

10 incident because it had been kept secret from the public. Now, that's

11 totally false, Mr. Bjelica. A Defence witness who just testified,

12 Mr. Obradovic, said that he heard about the Novoseoci killings the same

13 day they happened, and the reason he heard about them was because this

14 was something that people were generally talking about by the evening of

15 the day of this incident, and that's transcript page 36095 and 36096.

16 Mr. Tupajic similarly testified that he first learned about the

17 Novoseoci killings on the evening of the day they took place from a

18 soldier who had passed by the crime scene and seen the bodies, and he

19 then learned through the grapevine, as he put it, that the night before

20 members of the 2nd Romanija Brigade had killed all the men at Novoseoci

21 at a landfill approximately 5 kilometres from the village. And that's

22 P5238, transcript pages 15428 to 15430.

23 Mr. Bjelica, these killings were the talk of the town by the

24 evening of the day they took place, weren't they?

25 A. I don't know. I was not in Sokolac at the time. What I mention

Page 36456

1 in this statement is something I learned from Mr. Tupajic who expressed

2 his doubt before me that the people in Novoseoci suffered an inglorious

3 fate. We never had precise data as to what had happened, because no one

4 ever forwarded it. I stand by what I said in 2006 in the Krajisnik case,

5 and I still stand by it.

6 There was a terrible crime in Novoseoci, but there was another

7 crime in Novoseoci in 1942 when a unit called the Black Hand from the

8 adjoining municipalities of Rogatica and Pale, aided by the Ustasha from

9 Novoseoci, surrounded the church in the village, killing 57 civilians, 23

10 of whom were between 10 and 20 years of age, and 16 people who were

11 younger than 10. The same day they committed a massacre in the

12 neighbouring village of Kula where also beastly they killed 45 civilians

13 of whom 23 were younger than 20 years of age. In total on that day in

14 two villages 103 people were butchered and torched in the two villages of

15 whom 60 per cent were younger than 20.

16 This crime, as many others, where the Ustasha during the

17 Second World War in the territory of Sokolac municipality killed --

18 JUDGE KWON: That's not responsive to the question. We'll have a

19 break for 15 minutes, Ms. Gustafson.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.16 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

22 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

23 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Bjelica, at paragraph 37 of your statement, and I noticed

25 in -- or we noticed when in the last answer you gave you appeared to be

Page 36457

1 reading from a text that was not your statement. If you need to refer to

2 something other than your statement, if you could please just indicate

3 what the text is and your need to refer to it.

4 At paragraph 37 you said that some Muslims in Sokolac remained in

5 their homes nearly until the end of the war, and you cite Vrbarije as an

6 example. Just to put that in context, sorry, it's true that by late 1992

7 there were very few Muslims left in the entire municipality, no more than

8 30 to 40 households total; right?

9 A. I don't know how many. In any case, a majority of the Muslims

10 left before the end of 1992. I don't know how many household exactly

11 stayed behind. A majority left. I said that yesterday. They left in

12 the direction of Olovo and Kladanj.

13 Q. Okay. In -- I'd like to go to 65 ter 19814, please. I'm sorry,

14 that's clearly the wrong 65 ter number, so I will come back to that.

15 You were asked about the number of Muslims left at the end of

16 1992 in the Krajisnik case, and that's at page 22639 of the transcript,

17 and you had brought a bundle of documents that were given the exhibit

18 number D166, and which indicated prosecutions and investigations in late

19 1992, and you were -- when you were asked about this, you said -- about

20 these documents, you said the police did their job within the boundaries

21 of their capabilities under such circumstances. This is just to support

22 the thesis that there was no anarchy, unlike some people said that

23 everybody did what they wanted to do. Those who were involved in crimes

24 were brought in regardless of their ethnic background.

25 And then on the next page of the transcript the Judge asked you a

Page 36458

1 question. He said:

2 "Mr. Bjelica, one question to clarify. You said irrespective of

3 their ethnicity, those who were involved in crimes were brought in. At

4 that time, how many Muslims were left in the municipality?"

5 And you said:

6 "I don't know. In the town of Sokolac there were not many

7 Muslims even before the war. The municipality had some 15.000

8 inhabitants, and 4.000 of them were Muslims. In the town itself there

9 may have been a few dozens of households, Muslim households, and some of

10 them exchanged property with the Serbs from other areas, so there were

11 not that many Muslims in the town itself."

12 And the Judge said:

13 "Yes, you said 4.000 in the municipality. How many of them were

14 left or how many families approximately?"

15 And you said:

16 "In 1992, towards the end of 1992, or in the second half of 1992,

17 I can't remember exactly, very few of them left in 1990 through the

18 villages Vrbarije or maybe some other villages that were there, and they

19 stayed there until 1993 or 1994. The others had left after the agreement

20 in Knezevo [sic] now with the president of the municipality of Olovo,

21 Mr. Dzevad Abazovic, and the negotiations were led by Milan Tupajic."

22 And then the Judge asked and this is at page 22641:

23 "Yes. So I do understand that there were a few dozens of

24 households in the town, whereas you have no information on the remainder

25 of the municipality and how many still were there."

Page 36459

1 And you said:

2 "Very few, very few, maybe 30 or 40 families altogether at the

3 most. Very few."

4 Now, it's correct, isn't it, Mr. Bjelica, in the Krajisnik case

5 you testified that by late 1992 there were no more than 30 or 40 Muslim

6 households in the municipality?

7 A. First of all, there is a mistake. Not Knezevo but Knezina. I

8 see it in the English translation. In 1992 after the agreement with

9 Mr. Dzevad Abazovic, municipal president in Olovo, and the representative

10 of the Serbs from Olovo, Mr. Milovan Zugic, as regards the 30 or 40

11 families in Sokolac, perhaps there were some 12 family homes there and

12 some 30 or 40 apartments where Muslims resided and they did not own them

13 but had tenants -- tenancy rights.

14 So 12 family homes in Sokolac and some of them as I said also

15 remained in Novoseoci. Until 1993 or 1994 there were some in Burati and

16 Vrbarije. Some even remained after the Dayton Accords, and even the

17 remaining few left following the Dayton Accords to the area that became

18 the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So for the most part I agree

19 with that statement. It is correct. There's nothing to add, only

20 perhaps to clarify a thing or two.

21 Q. Now, just to be clear in your answer you said some of them, as I

22 said, also remained in Novoseoci. But with respect to Novoseoci, nobody

23 stayed; right? On the 22nd of September when the 2nd Romanija Brigade

24 killed all the men, women and children were taken to Sarajevo. There

25 were no Muslims left in Novoseoci at that point; right?

Page 36460

1 A. That is correct. I said that it was in the second half of 1992

2 when they stayed, and what you say is true. After the incident in

3 Novoseoci, no Bosniaks were left there.

4 Q. Now, in relation to Vrbarije and the neighbouring village of

5 Burati in Rogatica, you said in your statement that these villages asked

6 for mutual departure in late 1994, and yesterday at page 36401 you said

7 that this was arranged with international organisations and you mentioned

8 the ICRC. In fact, it was the RS exchange commission which arranged this

9 departure, and on the 29th of October, 1994, the Vrbarije villagers were

10 taken to Kula prison under police escort by the Sokolac SJB; right?

11 A. I don't know about that. I don't know where they were taken to.

12 I only know -- well, I didn't hear that they suffered any ill fate. I

13 did hear, though, that sometime after the Dayton Accords, perhaps in 1997

14 or 1998, they returned to their homes and rebuilt them. I didn't hear

15 that they suffered any harm. Some left before the Dayton Accords, some

16 after, whereas some never even left. It is on the border between Sokolac

17 and Rogatica. Perhaps some 15 kilometres from the seat of Sokolac

18 municipality and some 15 kilometres away from the seat of Sokolac

19 municipality -- of Rogatica municipality. Those villages are next to

20 each other, and there are even houses where the building itself was is in

21 one municipality and the land owned by the family is in the other. But

22 in any case, they are closer to Sokolac than to Rogatica.

23 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have Exhibit D3189 please.

24 Q. Now Vrbarije, Mr. Bjelica, according to the 1991 census it had a

25 total of 53 inhabitants and they were all Muslims. Now is that

Page 36461

1 consistent with your information? This was a tiny village, 53 people,

2 all Muslim; right?

3 A. Let me tell you. Some of them left but some of their relatives

4 had arrived from Rogatica or perhaps Sokolac and some other villages, and

5 they were accommodated with their relatives. There were a lot more of

6 them then would have been correct pursuant to any census, because they

7 felt safe there. I'm not denying the facts of the census, but after the

8 Dayton, over 50 left, which means that there were a lot more of them

9 accommodated there during the war. They had arrived from various

10 villages in order to be together, just like Serbs arrived from Sarajevo

11 Sesekovac [phoen]. Some 10.000 of them arrived in Sokolac from Sarajevo

12 and Olovo, at least 10.000 refugees and displaced persons ended up in

13 Sokolac.

14 Q. You said at paragraph 37 that these villages, referring to

15 Vrbarije and Burati, asked to leave in order to reunite families. Now,

16 this implies that every family in these two villages or at least the

17 majority of them all happened to have family members living elsewhere and

18 all of them at the exact same time decided to leave their village and

19 their homes and their property and their livelihoods in order to move --

20 reunite with family members elsewhere. Mr. Bjelica, that explanation

21 doesn't make sense. Every family is different. Every family has

22 different circumstances. It's not possible that the collective departure

23 of two entire villages could be attributed to family reunification;

24 right?

25 A. Please. There were very few military conscripts in those

Page 36462

1 villages. Those who were fit for military service had left before. I

2 suppose that they were assigned to the units of BH Army or perhaps

3 outside of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In other words, very few

4 military conscripts lived in those villages. I don't know exactly. I'm

5 talking about two villages, Vrbarije and Burati. I don't know how many

6 there were, but I know that there were a lot more people living there at

7 the time than live there according to the 1991 census.

8 I am not denying what you've just said. I'm not contesting that.

9 But I believe that people had arrived from Sjenica and the other villages

10 around Kula, and they came to Sokolac and other villages, and there were

11 a lot more living in those villages during the war than before the war.

12 I'm not contesting your numbers or what you're saying. What matters to

13 me the most is the fact that none of those people came into any harm's

14 way and they returned. And nothing bad ever happened to them. That's

15 important. And another important thing is that they returned.

16 Q. Mr. Bjelica, you didn't answer my question. I'll try it one more

17 time. Your explanation as to why these two villages asked to leave,

18 family reunification, doesn't make sense because every family is

19 different and every family has different circumstances, and it's not

20 possible that every single family at exactly the same time made the

21 decision to reunite with family members elsewhere. That explanation

22 doesn't hold any water; right?

23 A. Well, they said we'll go with our own, with our families, with

24 our relatives. And the same was true of the Serbs. After the

25 Dayton Accords were signed they did not trust the authorities of

Page 36463

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They left Sarajevo and ended up in some

2 underdeveloped municipalities having left behind all of their property

3 that they had amassed for a long time. It was a natural thing to do. It

4 was only after the Dayton Accords were signed that the real transfer of

5 the population started.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was not recorded that everybody

7 went to those area was in a majority, and especially after the Dayton.

8 That's what the witness said. After the Dayton Accords, people went to

9 the areas where their own people were a majority.

10 MS. GUSTAFSON:

11 Q. Mr. Bjelica, the Chamber has received evidence that the security

12 situation in Vrbarije village was very bad. The men were being taken out

13 by the army for forced labour on the front lines, thieves were stealing

14 cattle and searching their houses, and they had started to spend the

15 night in the woods, and that was why they asked to leave. That's P6235.

16 Did you know about the security situation in Vrbarije?

17 A. That's what you are saying. I did not know that before. The

18 first time I've ever heard it is now from you.

19 Q. Okay. And Mr. Tomislav Batinic, the president of Rogatica

20 municipality testified for the Defence, and he discussed the village of

21 Burati in Rogatica which is a village you connect with Vrbarije, and he

22 acknowledged that at the time the people of Burati left they lived in

23 daily fear. Did you know about that? Sorry, that's transcript page

24 33691 to 33695.

25 A. I don't know that.

Page 36464

1 Q. Okay. In your testimony yesterday, you stated that the departure

2 of Muslims from Knezina and Kaljina was temporary and that they returned

3 to Sokolac "immediately after the Dayton Peace Accords." And that's

4 transcript page 36402. And the Chamber has received demographic

5 statistical evidence indicating that in 1997, virtually no Muslims had

6 returned to Sokolac, and that's P4994, Annex A1, table 1N. So when you

7 said immediately that's not true because in 1997 virtually -- or very,

8 very few Muslims had returned to Sokolac right?

9 A. I know that villages are now full. All the houses and religious

10 edifices have been rebuilt. There are a lot of Muslims. They voted in

11 the elections. They supported me in my candidacy for the president of

12 the municipality. They voted for me. I enjoyed their support. A

13 significant number returned. They're opening their companies. They have

14 their households. They have their cattle. Those who have cattle sell

15 their milk. It is true that as quite a high number of young people work

16 in Sarajevo and Olovo, but they visit every weekend. A lot of Bosniaks

17 have returned to Sokolac. When it comes to the very nucleus of Sokolac,

18 it is true that people did not return there. Those houses and apartments

19 were exchanged even before the war conflicts broke out. A majority of

20 the Bosniaks who lived in Sokolac had an alternative. If they had an

21 apartment in Sokolac, they had a house in Sarajevo at the same time.

22 Q. It's true, is it not, that after the war you had at least on one

23 occasion publicly advocated ethnic separation and stated that you do not

24 want to live with Muslims; right?

25 A. No, it's not right. It's not true that I said that we didn't

Page 36465

1 want to live with Muslims. It would be best for us to live next to each

2 other and that was at the moment the best solution. However, as some

3 time goes by, nobody advocated a division of any kind or anything else,

4 but just to live next to each other. And the Muslims themselves wanted

5 that and they say the same, that this is the best and this is the best

6 solution for the Serbs, the Muslims, and the Croats.

7 The Dayton Accords which have been accepted by the three sides,

8 not fully, however it put a stop to the war and today we are living

9 together. We have the central bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina which are

10 functioning, so I don't know whether I have been clear enough. If you

11 want to ask me anything else, if you need any clarifications, please go

12 ahead, ask me.

13 Q. Well let's look at 65 ter 24876 in this context.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is not a reference to the

15 previous assertion, can we get the reference for the question put on line

16 1, page 53?

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's where we're going now. Sorry, I must have

18 misspoken. I wanted 65 ter 19837. My apologies.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Also we need a reference for

20 Batinic. It's not the page that has just been quoted. This is not where

21 we find the words that have been referred to in the question.

22 MS. GUSTAFSON: I can double-check my reference.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Bjelica, this is a Washington Post article dated the

24 26th of July, 2004, and it involves an interview with you, and if we

25 could go to page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S. Now, the

Page 36466

1 third paragraph in the B/C/S and the English, in fact. There's a quote

2 from you, and it says:

3 "We want to have a complete break from the Muslims. We did not

4 want to live with them and we don't want to be buried near them."

5 And then it says:

6 "In his view," referring to you, "Bosnia has no future as a

7 single state and the three ethnic groups should go their own way."

8 Now, that's what you stated to this Washington Post journalist in

9 2004; right?

10 A. I don't know. It is possible that I said that, but I don't know.

11 I don't remember this text at all. What they say here, we wanted to

12 separate completely from the Muslims. Please, the position of the Serbs

13 is clear: Either Yugoslavia or a separate state unit for the Serbian

14 people, if they didn't want to live in Yugoslavia. Over the night they

15 actually took away from us the state that we had lived in before and all

16 of that had associated of the events that happened to the Serbs in 1914

17 and 1941. We were afraid that we would be exterminated, that another 1

18 million of us would be missing, and the best for us would be to live next

19 to each other and to co-operate pursuant to the Dayton Accords and its

20 provisions.

21 Q. Mr. Bjelica, you said you don't know and you don't remember this

22 text at all, but when this -- when this -- please wait for the question.

23 When this article was put to you in the Krajisnik case, and that's at

24 page 22737 of the Krajisnik testimony, the question was asked, the quote

25 was given:

Page 36467

1 "We wanted to have a complete break from the Muslims. We do not

2 want to live with them and we don't want to be buried near them."

3 Your response was:

4 "This is taken out of context. This is not an integral

5 conversation. This was recorded by a camera. I remember this clearly.

6 There was a woman whose husband and two sons had been killed, and it was

7 in that context that I said that everything that happened they did not

8 want to live next to each other, and that is why the dead were

9 transferred from Sarajevo."

10 And then on the next page you said:

11 "So this is an emotional -- this was an emotional conversation

12 that took place at the military cemetery. You have to bear in mind

13 context."

14 That's what you said in the Krajisnik case about this article;

15 right?

16 A. Probably -- or, no, certainly. Now you have jogged my memory and

17 thank you for that. That was Jela Djuricic. Two of her sons and her

18 husband were killed in Sarajevo in Hadzici. She lived near Hadzici. She

19 had her house there. She left all of her property, but she exhumed her

20 two sons and her husband. She brought the remains to Sokolac and buried

21 them there. That was the footage and in that conversation it was said

22 that she didn't want to leave the remains of her two sons and her

23 husbands there. She didn't want them to be trampled over. They did not

24 want to be buried next to them. That's Jela Djuricic. She buried two of

25 her sons and her husband after they were killed on the threshold of their

Page 36468

1 own family house in Sarajevo. And that's correct. She left everything

2 behind. However, she did transport the remains of her dead husband and

3 sons to Sokolac and buried them there, and she was not the only one to do

4 that. There were hundreds of people like that. And thank you for

5 jogging my memory. Thank you for reminding me of that.

6 Q. Okay. And if we look at the last paragraph of this article,

7 right at the bottom of the page in the B/C/S it says:

8 "But Bjelica makes no effort to hide his admiration for Karadzic:

9 "'I knew him during the war and I followed him. I would not like

10 anything bad to happen to Radovan.'"

11 You also said that to the journalist on this occasion; right?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes, and I stand by that even today.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bjelica. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE KWON: And you are not tendering that article?

15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Pardon me. Yes, I am. Thank you.

16 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

17 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6257, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellency. Can we

21 receive the precise reference for what Batinic said, the way it was

22 interpreted in the question. And I insist on that.

23 Re-examination by Karadzic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bjelica, while we have the document on the

25 screen, could you please tell us whether Bosnia-Herzegovina is a unitary

Page 36469

1 state today?

2 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina is not a unitary state today. The Bosniaks

3 are trying to unify Bosnia and Herzegovina because -- let me not

4 elaborate here, because Bosnia-Herzegovina consists of two different

5 entities and the Brcko district. It is true that they're trying to

6 centralise certain positions and posts which were not defined in the

7 Dayton Accords, but that was what the High Commissioner did by issuing

8 unauthorised decisions after the Dayton Accords, but that was nothing

9 short of violence that happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. Thank you. In this document it is stated that as Ashdown

11 dismissed you from your position. He accused you of having been the ring

12 leader of a network of legal and illegal businesses that helped to

13 protect Karadzic. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether Ashdown or

14 anybody else for that matter had any objections to what you did during

15 the war? If he did have objections, what kind of objections did he have

16 and how did you fare in all that?

17 A. He did not have any objections to what I did during the war or to

18 my war past, if we can call it that. The authorities had to be shaken up

19 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, i.e., in Republika Srpska, and that's why some of

20 the local opposition at the time tried to launch some rumours and

21 misinformation to the officials of the high commission, and they tried to

22 portray some people as being involved in illegal deals in order to remove

23 them to -- from the political scene in order to push their own political

24 agenda.

25 Mr. Ashdown did not have a single argument for my dismissal from

Page 36470

1 my position, and it later turned out that that was the fact. There were

2 investigations by NATO and the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and local

3 courts, and I had never been held responsible even for a breach of

4 discipline. No criminal reports were ever filed against me. Finally,

5 the High Commissioner, Mr. Valentinisko [phoen] withdrew the previous

6 decisions on my removal from position.

7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry to interrupt. Since Dr. Karadzic was

8 mentioned the Batinic transcript reference several times, I believe the

9 reference I gave was correct: 33693 through to 33695.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. In that part Batinic said that the authorities did everything to

13 protect them and that they could only fear some idiot not the authorities

14 themselves.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness was never shown that

16 part but it's neither here nor there. Let's move on.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

18 Q. Can you please tell us what kind of procedure did you have to

19 undergo? How much time did you waste from the moment Ashdown suspended

20 us until the moment when Mr. Valentinisko, is not recorded, rehabilitated

21 you? How much time elapsed between the two?

22 A. A hundred months, eight years and four months.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bjelica, please remember to put a pause before

24 you start answering the question.

25 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 36471

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you tell us what kind of procedure did you have to undergo?

3 Were you remanded in custody? Were you interrogated? What was happening

4 to you? Can you tell the Trial Chamber?

5 A. Yes, I can. It's very difficult for me to look back. I was

6 removed on the 7th of March 2003. I was not allowed to work in any of

7 the state institutions. I didn't have the right to work. I did not have

8 the right to health care or social security. I couldn't travel. My

9 family and my friends after my removal were in a difficult position. In

10 2004 on the 14th of May of that year SFOR kidnapped me in Sokolac and

11 took me in an unknown direction or at least what was an unknown direction

12 to me. I found myself in an unknown location for 60 days from the 14th

13 of May 2004 until the 14th of June 2004, and then from the 30th of August

14 until the 29th September 2004.

15 I don't want to go into details of what was going on. There were

16 daily interrogations. I could not orientate myself either in time or in

17 space. I didn't know where I was. I did not have access to any press.

18 I had nothing to read. Nobody visited me. I did not have any right to

19 legal aid. I did not have any contacts with anybody. On two or three

20 occasions I was allowed to use a telephone and to call home just to tell

21 them that I'm alive and well.

22 After I was released from that detention unit, I was told that

23 their part of the job is over, that they had no arguments to remand me in

24 custody or to transfer me to the prosecution. They handed me over to the

25 security organs of the Republika Srpska, and they told me they had

Page 36472

1 anything to do with Mr. Bjelica. It's up to you to carry out

2 investigation, to prosecute him. As far as we're concerned we're done

3 with him.

4 On the 30th of November, 2005, I voluntarily surrendered to the

5 court of Bosnia-Herzegovina when two people were arrested. There was

6 some unfounded accusations against me. I spent 11 months in detention

7 and then the court rendered a not guilty verdict. The panel was presided

8 by Meddzida Kreso, the president of the appeals chamber. So in all of

9 these proceedings I was found not guilty and then a decision ensued on my

10 rehabilitation. And then I filed a case with the European Court for

11 human rights in Strasbourg. I did not receive an answer.

12 A number of people who were removed from their positions in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina also filed applications with the court in Strasbourg.

14 They were turned down by that court but my court -- my case was accepted

15 because I brought charges against the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina for

16 not protecting me according to the Geneva Conventions and other European

17 legal documents.

18 Q. Thank you. This is the price you had to pay for co-operating

19 with me; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you could sleep while you

22 were in SFOR custody? Were you able to sleep? How were you treated?

23 A. There was music blasting for 24 hours, 7/24 in the container

24 where I was. There was a neon light on 24/7. I could not communicate

25 with anybody. I was interrogated. The only thing that I had was a

Page 36473

1 church calendar and -- after the three meals that were brought to the

2 cell where I was, and I was tied in that cell most of the time. I would

3 scratch the dates with a nail, and I remember well that it was on the

4 21st of May, 2004, when I was taken out for interrogation, and what I was

5 told at the time was if you need an interpreter, you raise a thumb. If

6 you want to go to the toilet, you raise another finger. If you want to

7 do a number two you raise two fingers, and another signal if you needed a

8 doctor.

9 They took me away. They asked me about Karadzic. They asked me

10 if I knew anything about his whereabouts, the whereabouts of Mr. Karadzic

11 at the time. I also had to take a lie detector test. I had to undergo

12 all that. And one day I was taken out and then they told me you are

13 being taken to Guantanamo. I was put in a car or a helicopter, I don't

14 know. I was driven here and there. And then they returned me and they

15 told me you're not going to Guantanamo but to The Hague, and then not to

16 The Hague but to the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then they took me out

17 of the vehicle in which I was being transported. They moved me a bit

18 further. I always had headphones on my ears. I had to have dark glasses

19 and a hat on my head, a balaclava. I was handcuffs, they pushed me, and

20 I felt something hard behind my back like an obstacle, and then in front

21 of me I saw five or six armed soldiers with long barrelled rifles. And

22 then after that -- let me not go into any more details. Then they

23 returned me back to the room.

24 It was already summer, the days were warm, and there was a

25 ventilator by the door which brought in hot air. I also sensed some

Page 36474

1 unnatural smells. I realized that those were some irritants. I don't

2 know what they were. But in any case, what I had to go through I would

3 not wish upon the enemy.

4 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move on to a different topic now. The

5 authorities in Sokolac, did they expel Muslims? Did they leave because

6 they were expelled by the authorities?

7 A. No. That's what I have already said, no.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 19836, the

10 statement of Sema Mujanovic, just for the sake of seeing one sentence.

11 19836.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

13 Q. I'm going to read out the sentence. It's the second one.

14 "Out of fear because of the Chetniks, most of the inhabitants of

15 the village moved in the direction of Olovo."

16 How does this tally with what you know?

17 A. No. That's for sure. I've already said on the basis of the

18 agreement initiated by Mr. Abazovic and Mr. Milovan Zugic with the

19 leadership of the municipality of Sokolac, the population, the Bosniak

20 population was supposed to be moved temporarily to the municipality of

21 Olovo, and the Serb municipality temporarily to the municipality of

22 Sokolac until the situation calmed down. So this is certainly incorrect.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Obradovic, is he an assemblyman in the Municipal

24 Assembly? Actually, tell us that first.

25 A. No.

Page 36475

1 Q. I'm asking that because on page 43 in line 18 it was put to you

2 that you had said that no one in the Municipal Assembly and the municipal

3 parliament knew about this. However, you were confronted with the

4 following: that Mr. Obradovic heard about that before you. Tell us, what

5 was Obradovic?

6 A. Mr. Obradovic was then in the public security station. I don't

7 know whether he was chief or commandeer of the police, but he was not a

8 member of the SDS then and he could not have been an assemblyman in the

9 Municipal Assembly of Sokolac, and I know for sure that he was not a

10 member of the SDP or the reformist forces or the movement for Yugoslavia

11 or the SDA or the MBO. These were the parties that participated in the

12 government of the municipality of Sokolac. Mr. Obradovic was a person

13 who did not belong to any political party. He had a job with the police,

14 but then maybe he joined a political party after he retired. Maybe he

15 signed something like that.

16 Q. Thank you. When you answered the questions that had to do with

17 the perpetrators of the killing in Novoseoci, and also you deal with that

18 in Article 57 of your statement, in this -- the father of this man said

19 see what Krstic did to us. Did he say that Krstic was personally in

20 charge of this action, or did he mean that as commander he was

21 responsible for his son?

22 A. Well, I don't know exactly whether he was in charge, but it is

23 certain that nothing could be done in the brigade without the brigade

24 commander. That is to say that decisions were executive for

25 lower-ranking officers and soldiers.

Page 36476

1 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 57 you say:

2 "At the time I was not there."

3 You didn't know that this young man was there. And for yourself

4 you say:

5 "I did not know under whose command this incident occurred."

6 Can you tell us whether you found out who commanded this

7 lower-ranking unit?

8 A. No. I didn't know.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

10 MS. GUSTAFSON: I think that question was a little misleading

11 because the full sentence in the statement was:

12 "I had not known up to that moment," mean the conversation with

13 the acquaintance, "that this young man had been there, nor did I know

14 under whose command the incident had been committed."

15 So the way the sentence is phrased he then discovered that

16 occasion and the question was I think misleading in that respect.

17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I'm just quoting this but it's not for the purpose of citing it,

20 I'm just asking him whether he knew which lower ranking unit this was.

21 It certainly wasn't the whole brigade.

22 A. I believe it was not the whole brigade, but I don't know which

23 lower-ranking unit it was.

24 Q. Thank you. On page 19 it was suggested that you and I sent units

25 to Croatia. Could you tell the Trial Chamber who General Uzelac was and

Page 36477

1 where his headquarters was in 1991?

2 A. General Uzelac, I think, was the commander of the Krajina Corps,

3 as far as I can remember, with headquarters in Banja Luka. He was the

4 commander of the Banja Luka Corps or the Knin corps, some corps up there.

5 He wasn't in Sarajevo. And we could not send units to the front line.

6 Rather, we encouraged military conscripts to respond to the JNA call-up

7 in order to preserve Yugoslavia and the JNA.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you take a look at this. On page 14 you were

9 asked about the war hospital. Did any official ask for that -- or,

10 rather, was this within the system, or was this the SAO Romanija that was

11 doing this on its own apart from the system as such?

12 A. The military hospital, rather, the hospital of the Main Staff in

13 Sokolac was established by the JNA. It was in the days of the JNA that a

14 number of doctors were relocated or sent to a particular facility in

15 Sokolac that was built by the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was

16 called Zavod za Medicinu, 7.500 square metres. The command of the

17 Sarajevo district decided to establish a temporary hospital there. They

18 sent a number of doctors from the Sarajevo military hospital there. As

19 far as I know -- well, no, I know for sure that Mr. Nakas was there from

20 the military hospital. He was a Bosniak. He was the first doctor that

21 came to that hospital and worked there, and he worked there, and then

22 also a number of Croats and Slovenes worked in this military hospital

23 throughout the war, and even some Bosniaks. And this military hospital

24 catered to all who needed their assistance irrespective of ethnic

25 background.

Page 36478

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P6252. Could we have a look at

2 that, please. May I remind the other participants that the brother of

3 the late Abdulah Nakas who testified here confirmed that his brother went

4 out to Pale and Sokolac when the war started.

5 P6252. Could we have document, please.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

7 Q. Please read the first paragraph only. Could you read it out,

8 just the first paragraph?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 "In connection to the agreement of the Chief of General Staff of

11 the armed forces of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the

12 chief of the Medical Corps administration, the command of the

13 2nd Military Distinct, we hereby submit the list of necessary medical and

14 sanitary equipment for the wartime hospitals of Podromanija-Sokolac. The

15 newly erected building with about 7.000 square metres of useful space

16 will be used as a wartime hospital and should be provided with technical

17 and technological equipment ..."

18 Q. Thank you, thank you. We don't need to read any further. What's

19 the role of the SAO Romanija here?

20 A. The SAO Romanija did not play any role here because this was

21 passed by the command of the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo, and one

22 of the persons who was the most deserving in terms of setting up this

23 hospital was Mr. Nakas, Mr. Lazarevic, Tausan, and the others who came

24 and who established this hospital.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 36479

1 A. They were military personnel. They were lieutenant-colonels and

2 colonels of the JNA, and it was on orders from their Supreme Command that

3 they went up there and established that institution.

4 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the organs of the SAO. First of

5 all, can you tell us whether the SAO Romanija -- actually, I'm not asking

6 you whether it was proclaimed or whatever, but was it part of the

7 government as such? Did it have executive organs and did it pass

8 executive decisions?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. In 05360 in paragraph 4, it says they reached a

11 conclusion, or rather elements of the SAO should strike a balance in

12 terms of their policies. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what the

13 difference is between a conclusion and a decision?

14 A. A conclusion is recommended, whereas a decision is implemented.

15 To view the situation in the neighbouring municipalities and to behave in

16 a similar way. I mean, that would be it. As for decisions, a decision

17 has to be carried out, whereas a conclusion is not binding. However, a

18 decision is binding.

19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Treanor, an expert witness of the Prosecution, in

20 his report, P2536 in paragraph 137, he said:

21 "However, it seems that the SAO Romanija-Birac never existed and

22 that SAO Romanija and Birac continued to exist during the summer of

23 1992."

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We do not have the text.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 36480

1 Q. Further on in paragraph 38 he says:

2 Like in the previous stage, the community of municipalities under

3 Serb control information about the structure and functioning of the SAO

4 primarily stem from the ARK. As far as other SAOs are concerned, only a

5 small number of documents are accessible in terms of organs that belonged

6 to them.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Again, we do not have the

8 document so this is not a quote.

9 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters are not following.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: What was read out was

11 interpreted but we don't have the original document so it cannot be

12 considered as a quotation as such.

13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Also, Your Honours, this is an expert report

14 which cites in detail quotes. This witness is not an expert on the SAOs.

15 I don't know what exactly Dr. Karadzic wants to ask, but first of all it

16 appears to be leading and secondly it could be misleading because, of

17 course, the witness doesn't have all of the sources and material that

18 Dr. Treanor relied upon, so this isn't an appropriate exercise in my

19 submission.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In paragraph 138, the Prosecution expert witness complained that

23 the other SAOs except for the ARK Krajina did not have any documents.

24 Can you tell us how many documents remained after the SAO Romanija?

25 A. Well, I didn't know about this programme. Somebody must have

Page 36481

1 just written this and had it published, but except for a few releases

2 that were issued by either the prime minister or the minister of

3 information, but anyway there weren't any other documents because this

4 did not function. I've already said that the territory was not

5 contiguous and the seat was in Sarajevo and we never met. The Assembly

6 never met to decide on the further fate of the SAO Romanija.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, you mentioned on page 6 that this

8 plan, this programme, was not before the Assembly, the one that was

9 produced by the government. Why would it have to be before the Assembly?

10 Who approves government documents?

11 A. Well, government -- the government itself passes its own

12 documents.

13 Q. And which organ approves these documents so that the government

14 could go on working?

15 A. The peoples Assembly. And then the president of the republic by

16 his own decrees confirms certain laws.

17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bjelica.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, shall we take a

19 break now?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Exactly. I was just about to

21 finish right now, Excellency.

22 Thank you, Mr. Bjelica, for your work, thank you for your

23 testimony, and thank you for your great work on behalf the Serb people,

24 and I owe you a great deal because of the suffering that you've been

25 through on account of me.

Page 36482

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I didn't want to raise this in open

3 court. I raised it with the Defence previously and expressed my concerns

4 about these continued and now growing expressions of directed at

5 witnesses at the conclusion of their testimony. Recently it prompted an

6 unfortunate diatribe by a witness.

7 In any event, I think they're clearly inappropriate, particularly

8 since they've been expanding in scope and length, and I would ask that

9 Mr. Karadzic be encouraged to desist from this practice. As I say, I

10 raised it with the Defence initially and said I didn't want to do it in

11 open court, but if it persisted I would raise it in open court.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, if you could advise Mr. Karadzic what

13 to do and what not to do.

14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I'm doing this, Excellencies,

16 because I'm not in a position to say good-bye to the witnesses. I do not

17 have the opportunity to say good-bye on a personal note to witnesses once

18 they've finished testifying.

19 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, saying good-bye is one thing.

20 Making extended commentary is quite another, and you must realise that is

21 it has absolutely no evidential value whatsoever.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is absolutely clear to me, but

23 this is a matter of courtesy. And it's true, too. However, if this is

24 not allowed, then somebody should express their gratitude to the

25 witnesses who appear here on behalf of the Defence.

Page 36483

1 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, every witness has the gratitude

2 expressed by this court for attending as you well know.

3 JUDGE KWON: It's quite inappropriate in the Chamber's view to

4 say what you said, and you had the opportunity during your proofing if

5 necessary.

6 In any event, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Bjelica. On

7 behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal, I thank you for your coming to

8 The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, and I would just

10 like to say that the persons belonging to the service that takes care of

11 us and escorts us while we're in The Hague have done a great job and I

12 would like to thank them once again.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll rise all together. We'll have a

14 break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.20.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 1.21 p.m.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE KWON: Before Mr. Cekic makes the solemn declaration yes,

20 Mr. Tieger.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 As I discussed with Mr. Robinson during the adjournment, there

23 was some confusion about the witness order list arising from conflicting

24 information that was sent. I only mention that because it -- Mr. Zec's

25 understanding was and other understandings were that this witness would

Page 36484

1 be testifying tomorrow. It's not a problem. Mr. Zec is prepared to

2 proceed so there won't be a delay. I only mention that because -- so

3 that the Court, if necessary, may provide Mr. Zec with a little latitude

4 in his examination as a result of the circumstances in which he finds

5 himself, but I don't think there will be any sort of problem.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

7 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

9 MR. ROBINSON: I just also want to express my appreciation to the

10 Prosecution, and we apologise for any confusion that we caused them.

11 JUDGE KWON: On my part as well. I thought it was Mr. Kralj.

12 MR. ROBINSON: At one point the Prosecution had asked us to

13 switch the witnesses and then we thought that they had -- there was no

14 need for that any longer so we switched them back, but we didn't

15 communicate it very well. Sorry about that.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for your patience, Mr. Cekic. Would you

17 make the solemn declaration, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Cekic. Please be seated and make

21 yourself comfortable.

22 WITNESS: GOJKO CEKIC

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE KWON: Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Cekic, I must

25 draw your attention to a certain Rule of procedure and evidence that we

Page 36489

1 superior command in -- in the autumn of 1995 when the truce came into

2 effect.

3 [Interpretation] At this point I have no questions for Mr. Cekic.

4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes, Mr. Cekic. As you have noted, your

5 evidence in chief in this case has been admitted in writing, that is

6 through your written witness statement in lieu of your oral testimony,

7 and you'll now be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of

8 the Prosecutor.

9 Yes, Mr. Zec.

10 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

12 Q. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Cekic.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Let me first clarify something that you said in your statement.

15 In paragraph 12 you referred to document 1D06076, which has been admitted

16 associate exhibit, and if we can have it please on the screen.

17 You told us, Mr. Cekic, that the Batkovic centre had 4.310

18 blankets and 315 sleeping mattresses. For this assertion, you refer to

19 paragraph 2 and paragraph 4 of the document from 1996 which you're going

20 to see on the screen in a minute. And I would like to look at these two

21 paragraphs of the document.

22 MR. ZEC: Mr. Registrar, I have number 1D06076. That's one of

23 the associated exhibits.

24 Q. So, Mr. Cekic, if you look at the screen, I would like to

25 paragraph 2 and 4. So -- and paragraph 4 says that in 1993, Bijeljina

Page 36490

1 military post 7109 was given 3.710 blankets and 110 mattresses.

2 First, Mr. Cekic, military post 7109 was a logistic base, was it?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. So the numbers that you provide in paragraph 12 represent the

5 totality of these items that apparently went through Batkovic throughout

6 its existence, and this was -- this was not something that you had at

7 your disposal; correct?

8 A. I don't quite understand the question, but as for the figure of

9 3.000 -- just one moment. Four thousand three hundred and ten blankets

10 and three hundred and fifteen mattresses, I returned that equipment in

11 1996 to the units they belonged to; that is to say, to the base, to the

12 barracks of the unit where they had come from, that and the rest of the

13 equipment.

14 Q. That's exactly what I want to ask you about, because in the

15 document it says that this material was given to logistic base in 1993,

16 which means it was not there in 1996. That's exactly the issue I want to

17 raise with you.

18 A. No. No. A moment, please. Did I sign this document at the

19 bottom?

20 Q. Yes. You did.

21 A. How could I have signed it in 1993 when I came there in 1994?

22 This is a mistake with the date. In any case, they were handed over in

23 1996, not in 1993. Only the vehicle -- no, not even the vehicle. It was

24 all handed over in January 1996. In 1993, I was not at the collection

25 centre, and I couldn't have signed this.

Page 36491

1 Q. I was not suggesting that you were in 1993 there, but what it

2 says document that the material was given to the logistic base in 1993.

3 In any event, let me ask you this: The main provider of these items was

4 the ICRC, was it?

5 A. Part of it did arrive from the International Red Cross. However,

6 the rest came from the barracks such as parts of tents, mattresses,

7 wooden frames for beds, weapons, et cetera. Please bear with me. As for

8 the ICRC, we for the most part received some of the blankets. That's why

9 there were so many. They were given us by the International Red Cross,

10 quite a few blankets.

11 Q. So while we're on this topic, let me show you another related

12 document, and this time I want to focus to what you said in paragraph 11

13 about the prisoners having been able to take hot showers every day at

14 Batkovic.

15 MR ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24877.

16 And, Mr. President, I believe we have not received translation of

17 this document yet, so we'll try to work with B/C/S.

18 Q. And this is another hand-over receipt issued in 1996 following

19 the disclosure of Batkovic. It refers to the hand-over of the premises

20 and items used at Batkovic. Item 1 refers to the offices. Item number 2

21 refers to the reception centre office, sorry. Item number 3, hangar and

22 other facilities.

23 Mr. Cekic, if you look at item number 3 and what is listed there,

24 can you see 1 field bath and one field toilet with two cabinets?

25 A. Yes, I can see it. I see what it is.

Page 36492

1 Q. Mr. Cekic, there is no on the list five or six showers that you

2 describe in your statement, is it?

3 A. It is correct. Can I provide an explanation for this?

4 Q. This is the document that lists all the items at Batkovic at the

5 time, including, and as we saw in the previous document, spoons, so the

6 toilets that you talk about should be listed here but they are not there.

7 A. Yes, it's not there. Do you know where the difference lies?

8 This is the materiel we had received, not myself but those who held my

9 position prior to 1993. They received it from the Ekonomija farm. The

10 same goes for the bath and toilet boxes. As for the part that was

11 additionally added, I see, for example, wire which is missing and the

12 five or six toilet boxes and baths. They're not to be found here. I

13 can't exactly explain why they aren't, but they were also not issued to

14 us, the equipment needed for such baths.

15 Q. If you look the signatures, among these there is your signature

16 and the signature of Milenko Lujic. Can you confirm that Milenko Lujic

17 is Surgeon First Class Lujic that you referred to in paragraph 15 of your

18 statement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you explain what these letters VIK that we see before his

21 name stand for?

22 A. He was the company clerk as we referred to them. As for the VIP,

23 I don't really know what it stands for.

24 Q. And he --

25 A. In any case, he was the recording clerk at the collection centre.

Page 36493

1 He was in charge of issuing and receiving equipment and I only verified

2 the lists he kept. He was in charge of the office.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: In line 17, it should be

4 VIK instead of VIP.

5 MR. ZEC:

6 Q. And before that Lujic was in charge of the guards at the camp,

7 was he?

8 A. He was also the guard commander or one of. There were a few of

9 them. Once every month for a week he commanded the guards.

10 Q. You are not aware -- aware of him being punished or disciplined

11 for any offence, are you?

12 A. No. As far as I know, he was not summoned, interviewed, or

13 sanctioned.

14 Q. This Chamber has received evidence that during 1992-1993,

15 Milenko Lujic was involved in beatings, torture, and hiding of the

16 prisoners from the ICRC. Do you know about this, Mr. Cekic?

17 A. I couldn't have been aware of it, because in 1992 and 1993 I was

18 never at the collection centre, nor did I know the people working there.

19 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I refer to P48, page 8 to 10.

20 Q. Mr. Cekic, this Chamber has received evidence that a prisoner by

21 the name of Ferid Zecevic or professor, how he was called, was beaten to

22 death by the guards in the presence of Veljko Stojanovic for whom you say

23 in paragraph 22 that he was a guard commander at Batkovic. Husein Curic

24 and 70-year-old Zulfo Hadziomerovic were also beaten to death. These and

25 other murders and beatings, Mr. Cekic, were not result of a drunk

Page 36494

1 prisoner attacking guards and then them defending themselves with the

2 rifle as you describe it in paragraph 18, but the result of the cruel

3 conditions imposed on the Batkovic prisoners. Were you aware of this,

4 Mr. Cekic?

5 A. No. I wasn't aware of the conditions or of the fact that people

6 were being beaten or that anything else that was not permitted was done.

7 At the time I was not at the collection centre in Batkovic. I couldn't

8 have been aware of it and I didn't hear it being discussed.

9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before that P48 you referred to. It

10 may be something different.

11 MR. ZEC: 84, P84.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And now?

13 MR. ZEC: Now I was referring to P59, page 873, and P3212,

14 page 44.

15 Q. Mr. Cekic, this Chamber has received evidence that there were up

16 to 3.000 prisoners at Batkovic. They slept on the concrete floors. The

17 toilet was a deep hole in the ground. There was no medical treatment. A

18 young man from Brezevo Polje died from diabetes. Some prisoners had

19 heart attacks. So were you aware, Mr. Cekic, of these conditions at the

20 Batkovic before you were appointed commander?

21 A. I wasn't aware of such conditions or incidents or cases or such

22 things occurring before I was appointed commander.

23 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I refer to P58, page 11; P111, page 491

24 to 43 -- 493, and P3212, page 43.

25 Q. Mr. Cekic, the prisoners were forced to labour on the fields at

Page 36495

1 the front lines and abandoned Muslim houses; that is, to remove these

2 goods from these houses. Those that were forced to labour at the front

3 lines, they were used to dig trenches, to carry ammunition, and chop

4 firewood. Some of the prisoners got killed and some wounded while

5 performing this labour. Were you aware of this?

6 A. No, I was not aware of that. At the time when I was there, that

7 did not happen. Prisoners went to work --

8 Q. I'm asking this because you were in security organ as you say of

9 the 3rd Mixed Artillery Regiment. So you haven't heard or so prisoner

10 carrying ammunition? Would you like me to repeat my question?

11 A. No, I understand your question, but now the volume has been

12 stepped up so I can hear it. No, I was in the 3rd Mixed Artillery

13 Regiment. I went out into the field, I visited units, but in those units

14 there were never any prisoners who carried ammunition. So that was not

15 the case for the 3rd MAP.

16 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I refer to P58, page 11; P59, page 875 to

17 876; P84, page 9; P111, page 495 to 496; and P3212, page 46, 47.

18 Can we have now on the screen 65 ter 24879, please.

19 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, is 24877 being tendered?

20 JUDGE KWON: Hand-over receipt.

21 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

22 Yes, Mr. President. We would like to tender, but we don't have

23 translation, so I presume --

24 JUDGE KWON: Shall we mark it for identification pending English

25 translation.

Page 36496

1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we have no objection.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P6258, Your Honours.

3 MR. ZEC:

4 Q. And this is a decision to release 16 prisoners from Batkovic and

5 send them to -- to the Yugoslav river shipping company, Belgrade, to

6 conduct compulsory work service. This decision refers in its

7 introductory part to the order of the president of the RS Presidency, the

8 IBK order, and the request of the Yugoslav River Shipping Company.

9 Mr. Cekic, was this company listed among the companies that you referred

10 to in paragraph 19 of your statement when you say that the companies

11 asked for prisoners to labour?

12 A. Could you please repeat what the name of that company was and

13 where its seat was?

14 Q. The seat was in Belgrade, and the company name is Yugoslav River

15 Shipping Company.

16 A. No, never heard of that, that prisoners went outside the

17 territory of Republika Srpska, especially not to Belgrade. This is the

18 first I hear of it. And I don't believe that. I mean, I'm not saying.

19 Anything is possible.

20 Q. One can presume that shipping company can have some premises at

21 Sava River, Sava River near Bijeljina, but in any event, you haven't

22 heard of this company?

23 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I would tender this document.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, we would object at this point

Page 36497

1 because the witness hasn't been able to confirm anything. It looks like

2 it has some elements of authenticity, but I was just checking myself

3 because it refers to an order from the Presidency of 8 September 1992,

4 and I was unable to find that order. So I have some questions about

5 whether this should be admitted. So perhaps absent a showing of

6 provenance it can be marked for identification.

7 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Mr. Zec?

8 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, if I'm given sufficient time, I can show

9 to you that these 16 names are listed in another exhibit that you have

10 before you, which is P03213, which verifies that these people were

11 detained at Batkovic and these dates when they were sent to this -- to

12 labour, so which suggests that this document is authentic document.

13 JUDGE KWON: Is it necessary for you to rise, Mr. Tieger?

14 MR. TIEGER: It's only for the purpose of trying to ensure

15 consistency, Mr. President, but I take it from your question that you

16 would not wish further comment.

17 JUDGE KWON: Having heard Mr. Zec's submission, would you like to

18 add anything, Mr. Robinson?

19 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE KWON: We will admit it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6259, Your Honours.

23 MR. ZEC:

24 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Cekic, about the ICRC visits to Batkovic

25 before the time that you were there. This Chamber has received evidence

Page 36498

1 that some of the Batkovic prisoners were removed from the camp prior to

2 the visits of the ICRC. These were mostly elderly, children, and some

3 others. The guards stood or posed for the missing and killed prisoners.

4 The prisoners were instructed what to say when the ICRC arrives. Were

5 you aware, Mr. Cekic, of this practice at Batkovic with respect to the

6 ICRC before your service there?

7 A. I don't know. I can just answer about what I -- about what I

8 know. I can only say about the period when I was there, and if you want

9 me to talk about that, fine.

10 Q. That's in your statement, so we'll move on.

11 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I refer to P59, page 877 to 878; then

12 P84, page 8; and P2929, page 12.

13 Q. Mr. Cekic, Major Djoko Pajic, who you referred to in paragraph 4

14 of your statement, who was in charge of Batkovic before you, is currently

15 on trial before the local court in Bijeljina for crimes committed at

16 Batkovic together with Petar Dmitrovic, Ljubisa Misic, and Djordje

17 Krstic. Can you confirm this, Mr. Cekic?

18 A. Yes, I heard that there was a trial like that in Bijeljina. I

19 don't know whether it's over and I don't know what the outcome is.

20 Q. Let's talk about Batkovic at the time when you were in charge.

21 Among these 120 prisoners that you say arrived to Batkovic after the fall

22 of Srebrenica, among them there were wounded, elderly, and children;

23 correct?

24 A. Among them there weren't any children. There weren't many

25 elderly people either. There were people there, say, up until the age of

Page 36499

1 55. I could not really tell then how old people were.

2 Q. Some of these wounded died at Batkovic as a result of the

3 conditions they were subjected to; correct?

4 A. No, that is not correct. What is correct is that three persons

5 died, those who were wounded in Srebrenica during the breakthrough. They

6 were given medical assistance when they came to the collection centre in

7 Batkovic. However, after that, after a few days, they died nevertheless.

8 That was established by a doctor. The International Red Cross was

9 informed, so everything was done in accordance with regulations.

10 Q. Let's talk about them.

11 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24880.

12 Q. And this is a list of seven wounded people brought by the

13 UNPROFOR from Potocari to the health centre Bratunac on 17 July 1995.

14 The Chamber has heard evidence about the MSF field hospital in Potocari,

15 but here on this document do you see item number 4, Hajrudin Alic?

16 Hajrudin Alic died at Batkovic. Do you remember him?

17 A. Well, I remember that there were several persons by the name of

18 Hajrudin. Whether that's the one, I don't know. Possibly.

19 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I mention this evacuation of wounded from

20 Potocari, and that's P04752, page 10 to 12; P04175, page 25 -- 24-25.

21 Can we have now 65 ter 23185.

22 MR. ROBINSON: Is this being tendered?

23 MR. ZEC: I will use one more document, so then I can ask to be

24 tendered together. And this is a list -- this is not correct document.

25 It should be 03185. And this is a list of 22 people that were

Page 36500

1 transferred under guards on 18 July 1995.

2 JUDGE KWON: Could you give the number again.

3 MR. ZEC: 65 ter 03185.

4 Q. The last seven names on this list are the seven that were brought

5 to Bratunac the day before that he saw on the previous list. Item number

6 19 is Hajrudin Alic who is the -- whose name we also saw a moment ago.

7 These 22 people, Mr. Cekic, these were among the first few Srebrenica

8 prisoners that you received at Batkovic after the fall of Srebrenica;

9 correct?

10 A. Right now I cannot remember exactly the names and surnames of

11 these people who came, but I do remember that a group of some 20 persons

12 came.

13 MR. ZEC: Perhaps I can now tender these two lists,

14 Mr. President.

15 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive them.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P6260 and 6261 respectively, Your

18 Honours.

19 MR. ZEC: Can we have now P03213. And this is a list of the

20 Batkovic prisoners. We would need e-court page 9 for the B/C/S.

21 Mr. President, this document, the translation does not contain

22 all the names that appear on the B/C/S version simply because it's a list

23 of names.

24 Q. And, Mr. Cekic, can you have a look at item number 121 on this

25 page. It is Hajrudin Alic, son of Alija, that we talk about for some

Page 36501

1 time now. He arrived at Batkovic on 18 July 1992. Next to it there's a

2 date, 24 July 1995, and in the last column it says that he died.

3 MR. ZEC: Can we now have B/C/S e-court page 133.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A question, your Excellencies, not

5 to have things piled up in these questions, and even I cannot see where

6 these questions are going.

7 JUDGE KWON: Let's see. Let's hear the question. Let's wait and

8 see.

9 Shall we proceed, Mr. Zec?

10 MR. ZEC: Yes, Mr. President. And my basic question was about

11 these wounded who died at Batkovic, and we are talking about them. So I

12 want to just point to two names that appear on this list.

13 Q. And now on this page, item 213 is Ramo Mujic, son of Mustafa. He

14 was brought to Batkovic on 25 July, 1995, and he died on 7 August 1995.

15 Now I can -- can we have 65 ter 24883.

16 JUDGE KWON: So you have no question for the witness?

17 MR. ZEC: Yes, I will have. After I show one more document I

18 will have a witness -- because what I'm going to show next is the local

19 witness statement of a person who saw these people at Batkovic, these two

20 that I just mentioned.

21 And this is a local statement or questionnaire of Bekir Ademovic.

22 Can we have last page of this document. And this person, Mr. President,

23 Bekir Ademovic is also listed in the list of 22 people taken from

24 Bratunac to health centre, from Bratunac to Batkovic on 18 July 1994 --

25 1995. And in B/C/S we would need -- go back to page before. And one

Page 36502

1 more page, Mr. Registrar.

2 Q. So here Bekir Ademovic said that Hajrudin Alic had a stomach

3 wound. Bekir did not see him receive any medical treatment until the

4 arrival of the Red Cross. Hajrudin died at Batkovic. Bekir also said in

5 the next paragraph that Ramo from Babuljica village, Srebrenica, could

6 not take any food as a result of the beating that he suffered when he was

7 captured. Ramo died at Batkovic. And these are --

8 JUDGE KWON: What page do we have it on the English version?

9 MR. ZEC: Should be last page in English version.

10 Q. And these two names I've been showing earlier in the log-book

11 that we saw.

12 So, Mr. Cekic, the realities that people were dying at Batkovic

13 as a result of the conditions they were subject to, were you aware of

14 this?

15 A. No. They were not dying because of the conditions in the

16 Batkovic centre. They died as a consequence of their wounding during the

17 breakthrough from Srebrenica. This can be confirmed by Dr. Blagojevic,

18 who established that they had died, and this can be confirmed. I believe

19 that for each and every person who died in the Batkovic centre there is a

20 report of the International Committee of the Red Cross, because they were

21 called in every time a person died. Also, they were present when this

22 first group of 22 persons came to Batkovic, and together with us in the

23 afternoon they took care of them. A doctor was called in straight away.

24 Since food had not been provided for that day we sent the driver to town.

25 Bread and tins were purchased for them. They were in a sorry state.

Page 36503

1 No one could have died as a consequence of the conditions in

2 Batkovic because the conditions were not that bad.

3 MR. ZEC: Can we have English page 8 and B/C/S page 2 of this

4 statement.

5 Q. What, Mr. Cekic, this person Bekir Ademovic said that during his

6 detention at Batkovic, he saw Vujic, he's a deputy camp commander, beat

7 Alija from Cerska, Zaim from Tokoljak village in Srebrenica, and

8 Alija Canic from Janja. So, Mr. Cekic, these prisoners were subjected to

9 beatings and torture at Batkovic; correct?

10 A. That is not correct. While I was commander of the collection

11 centre there, no one beat anybody up. No one abused anyone. Persons

12 from the ICRC came regularly. They would meet them, and none of us were

13 present during those meetings. After these meetings I always asked are

14 there any objections in terms of our work and what do you think about

15 this? Persons from the International Red Cross never said that there

16 were any complaints concerning beatings or anything else.

17 Q. Was there any Vujic deputy commander at Batkovic? Or this

18 perhaps could be Lujic, Milenko Lujic, that we talked about earlier.

19 A. Yes, it is Milenko Lujic.

20 MR. ZEC: Could we now have P03213.

21 Q. And this is again the list of Batkovic prisoners that we looked

22 at earlier.

23 Mr. Cekic, I asked you whether elderly and children who were

24 detained at Batkovic during your time there, so now we're going to have a

25 look at some of their names.

Page 36504

1 MR. ZEC: Can we have B/C/S e-court page 9. And I believe,

2 Mr. President, we can work from this point with B/C/S only.

3 Q. Item number 136 is Ramo Ahmetovic.

4 MR. ZEC: We need B/C/S e-court page 9, please.

5 Q. So item number 136 is Ramo Ahmetovic, son of Selve, born in 1924.

6 And, Mr. Cekic, you told us in paragraph 19 that you were the oldest at

7 Batkovic. Here we see that the prisoner by the name of Ramo Ahmetovic

8 was 12 years older than you, Mr. Cekic. Did you see him there?

9 A. Well, I personally do not remember him, but he was present there.

10 However, when I said that I was among the eldest persons there, that had

11 to do with those prisoners of war who were there up until then, July

12 1995. However, in 1995, at the end of July, these prisoners who were

13 brought in were persons -- I mean, who were brought from the breakthrough

14 or from combat. Now, whether he had joined these soldiers of the BH Army

15 and then together with them did he come --

16 Q. Thank you. You and answered my question.

17 MR. ZEC: Can we now have e-court page 50.

18 Q. Item number 29 is Haris Dzenanovic, born in 1978, 17 at the time.

19 Item number 31 is Mersad Dzanic, born in 1980, 15 at the time.

20 MR. ZEC: Can we have e-court page 78.

21 Q. Item number 223 is Nermin Hakic, born in 1980.

22 MR. ZEC: Perhaps I should show only one additional page. Can we

23 have e-court page 139. E-court page 131, I'm sorry.

24 Q. Item 191 is Hazim Mujanovic, born in 1980, and so on.

25 Mr. Cekic, there were a number of children detained at Batkovic

Page 36505

1 during your time there. Did you -- didn't you see them there?

2 A. Yes. All those persons, just like the previous one who was born

3 in 1924, they were all brought with those who were captured during the

4 breakthrough on the front line. That means that they either fought or

5 joined the combatants. The Army of Republika Srpska, when they captured

6 them, they couldn't be the judge of --

7 Q. Mr. Cekic, I only asked for whether you knew that children were

8 there, and we just saw there were children. So we can move on.

9 You told us in paragraph 19 about Vanekov Mlin. This prison was

10 located in an old building nearby the Bijeljina garrison, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Srebrenica prisoners were held there including Sado Ramic whose

13 statement you have commented, Mr. Cekic. Did you also know that

14 Avdo Palic from Zepa was held also at Mlin? Did you know that,

15 Mr. Cekic?

16 A. No. I had no information about the Vanekov Mlin because those

17 people were all under investigation.

18 Q. Thank you and that's statement. This Chamber has received

19 evidence that Avdo Palic was brought to Mlin from Rogatica around 10

20 August, 1995, in order to be hidden from the public.

21 MR. ZEC: This is at transcript page 3446465 and Exhibit P06156,

22 Your Honours.

23 Q. Sado Ramic, Mr. Cekic, whose statement you have commented, said

24 that Avdo Palic was brought to Mlin during his detection there.

25 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24779.

Page 36506

1 Q. And this is receipt on hand over of Avdo Palic to

2 Dragomir Pecanac on 5 September, 1995, for the needs of the VRS

3 Main Staff intelligence sector?

4 According to the heading of the document, the prison Mlin was

5 under the head of Bijeljina garrison, and Milan Savic was in charge of

6 the prison. Is this correct, Mr. Cekic?

7 A. Correct.

8 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I tender this document.

9 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President. All that has been noted

10 is that the head of the prison is Milan Savic. There's nothing about the

11 content of the document that has been confirmed by this witness.

12 MR. ZEC: This whole topic I'm talking about Avdo Palic and his

13 imprisonment at Mlin. So this is another confirmation that this person

14 was held there. The witness had said that he doesn't know.

15 JUDGE KWON: But at least you could have asked if this is signed

16 by Milan Savic to the witness.

17 MR. ZEC: I'll do so.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

19 MR. ZEC:

20 Q. Mr. Cekic, if you look the signatures and the one that's on the

21 middle, that's -- do you recognise as the signature of Milan Savic?

22 A. No. I can't recognise the signature because I was not his

23 superior. I've not seen his signature before. I'm in no position to say

24 whether he signed this or not.

25 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, the witness confirmed that the prison

Page 36507

1 was under the Bijeljina garrison and that Milan Savic was head of the

2 prison so on that basis this document can be admitted.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zec, until the time we are satisfied about the

5 provenance or the other foundation, we'll mark it for identification.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P6262, Your Honours.

7 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I see the time. The only I have is

8 three photographs of Batkovic to show to the witness with your leave.

9 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Zec.

10 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24881.

11 Q. And, Mr. Cekic, what I would like to show you now is photographs

12 of Batkovic.

13 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure, did you tender or did you not 24883?

14 MR. ZEC: I believe that was his statement, so --

15 JUDGE KWON: Ah, yes. That was the statement. Very well.

16 MR. ZEC:

17 Q. Mr. Cekic, if you look at the photo in front of you, in 1995 the

18 prisoners were held in the first hangar looking from the top, the one

19 near the small house with red roof; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. ZEC: Can we have next page, please.

22 Q. This is the entrance to Batkovic, is it?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. ZEC: Can we have next page, please.

25 Q. And here we see these open hangars of the Batkovic complex,