130405IT

Page 36619

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did understand you.

2 In the hotel room, I found the original, the one can be seen with

3 different signatures, different pens, ink. I haven't brought it along,

4 but I had intended to bring it along.

5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

6 Yes, Ms. McKenna.

7 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour. Just to note before I

8 start, I will do my very best to complete within the one hour and

9 15 minutes that you have allocated for me but I may have to ask your

10 indulgence for a little extra time. But perhaps we can see how we go.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let us see. Please proceed.

12 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.

13 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mladjenovic.

15 A. Good morning to you, too.

16 Q. We're quite limited in time today, so I'm going to be asking you

17 a series of questions about your statement. I'd appreciate if you could

18 listen carefully and answer as precisely and concisely as possible.

19 I'd like to start with a preliminary point regarding the

20 Foca Territorial Defence. In paragraph 12 of your statement, you state

21 that at the level of the Foca TO staff reservists were issued with

22 weapons, both Muslims and Serbs, as well as the reserve police force.

23 And you also mention Focatrans a number of times in your statement.

24 Now, the Focatrans company had its own Territorial Defence unit,

25 didn't it?

Page 36620

1 A. I'm not aware of that. As a matter of fact, I doubt that, but I

2 cannot say for sure because the staff of the Territorial Defence was at

3 the level of the municipality, and there was a Chief of Staff,

4 Mr. Sulejman Pilav. His term of office had expired two years before

5 that, the 6th of May. I remember that because that's my patron saint's

6 day. So that was in 1998 before the elections and this -- sorry, let me

7 just finish this sentence. And this went on up until the war conflict

8 itself. So it was him, although Serbs, according to the inter-party

9 agreement, were allocated that post, but it wasn't possible. You have

10 that in the documentation. There was urging of this kind and that,

11 and --

12 Q. Thank you. Once again I'd just like to remind you to focus very

13 specifically on the question that I'd asked which relates to the

14 Focatrans company.

15 MS. McKENNA: If we could please have 65 ter number 24821.

16 Q. And, Mr. Mladjenovic, I'd just like to clarify this point

17 because it's relevant to both your testimony and the testimony of

18 previous Defence witnesses.

19 This is a document dated the 14th of March, 2013, from the

20 Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior Criminal Investigation

21 Department to the ICTY, and it states in the first paragraph:

22 "We established that Lazar Kunarac, who was in charge of the

23 documentation of the then TO of Foca including the TO unit Focatrans, was

24 killed in the beginning of the war."

25 And the next paragraph states, if we can have -- oh, excuse me,

Page 36621

1 me it's page 1 in the English as well. An interview was conducted with

2 Momcilo Markovic, who was the commander of the then Territorial Defence

3 unit in Focatrans.

4 It is clear from this document, isn't it, that there was a

5 Territorial Defence unit in the Focatrans company; isn't that correct?

6 A. I'm not aware of that. Absolutely not. And it almost seems

7 illogical to me.

8 This entire Territorial Defence was at the level of the

9 municipality, and the staff was at the level of the municipality. So I

10 absolutely cannot assert, there's no way I can do that, that this

11 structure --

12 Q. Do you accept that this document states --

13 A. I'm not aware of that. I'm not aware of that. That is what is

14 written here, but I claim that I was not aware of that situation, nor am

15 I aware of that situation now. And this is a document from 2013. So I

16 did not know about this. I even didn't know that the late gentleman,

17 Mr. Kunarac worked in Focatrans. I didn't even know that.

18 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document.

19 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Your Honours. First of all --

20 JUDGE KWON: Let's hear from Ms. McKenna about the basis upon

21 which we can admit this.

22 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 The witness testified in a number -- mentioned a number of times

24 in his statement the Focatrans company and the suggestion that the

25 Muslims were armed through Focatrans. If you'd bear with me, I can find

Page 36622

1 the reference. And this is a previous -- this is something that we've

2 heard from previous Defence witnesses. I -- we submit that this document

3 impeaches the witness on this point as it proves that there was a

4 Focatrans Territorial Defence unit.

5 JUDGE KWON: By Defence witness, who do you refer to?

6 MS. McKENNA: Excuse me, Your Honour. It was

7 Witness Pljevaljcic.

8 JUDGE KWON: Whose words is this, that -- that is saying that

9 Foca TO included Focatrans TO unit and Markovic was the commander of that

10 unit.

11 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, this is a letter from the

12 Republika Srpska Ministry of Interior Criminal Investigation Department

13 which was sent to the Office of the Prosecutor in response to a request

14 on this specific point. Further to the

15 testimony [Overlapping speakers] ...

16 JUDGE KWON: So we do not know whose words they are.

17 MS. McKENNA: They're the words of the representative from the

18 criminal investigation department of the present

19 Republika Srpska [Overlapping speakers] ...

20 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] Yes, Mr. -- thank you.

21 Yes, Mr. Robinson.

22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. This has no probative value

23 in contradicting the testimony of this witness because it -- as it -- you

24 picked up from the text it doesn't even say that Mr. Markovic claimed to

25 have been the commander of the Territorial Defence unit. So, for all we

Page 36623

1 know, this inspector of the MUP in 2013 just either made an assumption or

2 we don't know where he got that information.

3 So this isn't the type of contradictory information that would be

4 admissible.

5 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to add anything, Ms. McKenna?

6 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, in our submissions, the -- an official

7 document from the -- the Criminal Investigation Department of the

8 Ministry of Interior, in response to a request from the Office

9 of the Prosecutor, stating that an interview was conducted should --

10 has -- has significant probative value and should be taken on its face.

11 JUDGE BAIRD: But, Ms. McKenna, didn't the witness say, I doubt

12 that, but I cannot say for sure. I cannot say for sure.

13 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I don't -- it -- the

14 witness said that he couldn't say for sure whether a -- a Focatrans

15 Territorial Defence unit existed. This document, in our submission,

16 proves that such a unit existed, which is relevant to both this witness's

17 evidence and the previous Defence witness's evidence.

18 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view it's not appropriate to

21 admit this document through this witness. We'll not admit this at this

22 time.

23 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Turning to a completely different topic, Mr. Mladjenovic, at

25 paragraph 16 of your statement, you talk about the SDS rallies in the

Page 36624

1 town stadium in 1990 and 1991. And you state that the messages from our

2 rallies were worded in the spirit of respect for neighbourly relations to

3 preserve peace and to preserve our common country.

4 Now, this Chamber has heard evidence from a Witness KDZ239 that

5 Vojislav Maksimovic, who as you state in your statement was the president

6 of the SDS Deputies Club and was present at the rally in Foca,

7 Mr. Maksimovic at a SDS rally in Gorazde at the end of 1990 stated that

8 in the previous war, blood flowed in the river Drina and now this time

9 blood will flow down both the rivers Drina and Cehotina.

10 And also Witness 33 testified in the Kunarac case that at the SDS

11 founding rally in Foca, it was declared that the river Drina would flow

12 bloody again.

13 Now do you agree that this was not a message that was worded in

14 the spirit of respect for neighbourly relations to preserve peace?

15 A. Let me say straight away that the Serb Democratic Party at the

16 stadium, that is to say, when it was established on the 1st of September,

17 it's true Mr. Maksimovic was there, Mr. Cengic was there, among others,

18 of course, President Karadzic, Plavsic, Koljevic, not to mention

19 everybody now. I do not remember exactly, but I don't believe that

20 Mr. Maksimovic would say that at that gathering, although later it was

21 later, after the elections, that he became president of the SDS club and

22 the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 The gathering that you mentioned obviously was held in 1990. It

24 was an electionary [as interpreted] and then in 1991, the Assembly of the

25 trinity was held and all the leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party were

Page 36625

1 there and there was an academician, the late Mr. Raskovic who was present

2 as a guest. So these are two gatherings. One held in 1990 and the other

3 one held in 1991. Not in 1992.

4 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

5 A. Obviously you made a mistake there.

6 As for what was discussed in Gorazde, please, I cannot confirm

7 that, because I did not take part except at those two gatherings that you

8 referred to. And that is correct, two gatherings.

9 Q. Let's talk about later statements that were made. Witness KDZ239

10 gave evidence that in early April 1992 there was propaganda on Radio Foca

11 where Miroslav Stanic stated that it was not possible to live with Muslim

12 neighbours anymore, that Serbs couldn't permit themselves to be woken up

13 by the Hodza every morning from the mosque minaret, and that there was a

14 danger of the Serb population or units being circumcised.

15 Now, did you hear these messages from Mr. Stanic?

16 A. I did not hear that. So I did not hear that. I confirm that I

17 did not hear that. But, at any rate, there must be a note or something

18 if that is correct, but I did not hear that.

19 Q. Well, let's look at Mr. Stanic's own words when speaking in an

20 interview on --

21 A. Stanic?

22 Q. Yes, thank you. When speaking in an interview on the third

23 anniversary of the take-over the Foca, he stated -- and for the parties'

24 reference this is P3476. Mr. Stanic stated:

25 "If certain individuals had been in the command at the beginning

Page 36626

1 of the conflict we would certainly not be sitting here in free Foca and

2 we would probably have a constant headache from the muezzin singing from

3 the tops of the minarets."

4 So, again, I'll ask you, this doesn't suggest a desire to

5 preserve neighbourly relations and peace, does it?

6 A. Correct. It would not contribute to good relations and peace in

7 Foca, but -- but, roughly, that is three years into the war, if I

8 understood you correctly. That statement can only be confirmed by him.

9 I did not hear it, but, I mean, quite surely, in that context, I could

10 not -- I mean, I didn't understand that that is what was being said at

11 the time.

12 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

13 A. I can understand the beginning of the war but now, no, because he

14 had no one to say this to.

15 Q. Let's move back to discuss the time prior to the war starting.

16 In paragraph 14 of your statement, you explain that the Serbian

17 municipality of Foca was formed on the 21st of December, 1991. And then

18 in paragraph 20, you state that the Muslims obstructed the work of the

19 Foca Municipal Assembly in many ways, and energy was wasted and that was

20 why the Serbian Municipal Assembly of Foca was formed in December 1991.

21 Now, in fact, Mr. Mladjenovic, the Serb municipality of Foca and

22 its bodies were formed pursuant to instructions given by Mr. Karadzic,

23 weren't they?

24 A. It is absolutely not that Mr. Karadzic provided those.

25 Let me explain briefly. When the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina

Page 36627

1 was left by the Serb deputies because they had been outvoted, then

2 definitely alongside the assertions that I perhaps need not remind you of

3 but they were to the effect that Alija Izetbegovic was prepared to

4 sacrifice peace for sovereignty, and so on and so forth. It was then

5 that out of caution we established on the 24th and not on the 21st, or

6 perhaps it may have been the 25th of December, 1991, the Assembly of Foca

7 Municipality. I think it was called the Assembly of Foca Municipality in

8 BiH or something of the sort. In -- so that we be prepared. It all

9 pointed to deteriorating relations and a bad situation. As a matter of

10 fact, I have a flyer that was distributed at a promotional rally in Foca

11 attended by over 100.000 people which is probably the largest SDA rally

12 in Foca --

13 Q. MR. Mladjenovic, again I'd like to --

14 A. -- and they were distributed by Mr. Murat, if I'm not mistaken.

15 Q. Again, I'm going to have to ask you to focus very clearly on the

16 question I'm asking.

17 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have P3337.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that ... go ahead.

19 MS. McKENNA:

20 Q. Now, Mr. Mladjenovic, this is an intercepted conversation

21 between Mr. Stanic and Mr. Karadzic on 6th of January, 1992.

22 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have pages 2 in the B/C/S and

23 English versions, please.

24 Q. And halfway down the page in the English version, Mr. Stanic

25 says:

Page 36628

1 "We have formed a Serb municipality, and you have that

2 information."

3 Mr. Karadzic responds:

4 "All right."

5 Stanic states:

6 "If this thing should go differently on the 15th we'll have a

7 public promotion."

8 Mr. Karadzic responds:

9 "Yes, yes, and take complete control of your own affairs?

10 And Mr. Stanic responds:

11 "Yes, yes, everything as it is in the instructions."

12 So, Mr. Mladjenovic, according to Mr. Stanic, the formation of

13 the Serb municipality bodies was pursuant to Karadzic's instructions;

14 isn't that correct?

15 A. I think that the Serb leadership having learned from their

16 previous experience with the municipal -- with the Assembly of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina suggested as a fallback position to establish the

18 assembly in Foca. It couldn't function in legal terms because the last

19 assembly session with the Muslims, Serbs and Montenegrins and Croats,

20 because there was a Croat among the deputies, was held on the

21 15th of March, 1992, together.

22 Let me tell you something else.

23 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic --

24 A. We --

25 Q. -- I'm going to -- I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt you because

Page 36629

1 I would really like to focus on this issue of the formation and the

2 reasons for the formation of the assembly.

3 Now you, yourself, attended the extended session of the

4 Serbian Democratic Party Main Board and Executive Committee which was

5 held on the 14th of February in Sarajevo --

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, I'm sorry to interrupt you. But did

7 we hear the witness's answer to your previous question?

8 Mr. Stanisic [sic] said in this intercept that everything is as

9 it is in the instruction.

10 Do you have anything to say about that, Mr. Mladjenovic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The instructions or recommendations

12 had to do with the establishment of the assembly, which never -- was

13 never operational in 1992 up until the 8th of April. Until then, there

14 was the full municipal assembly of both Muslims and Serbs. Also, the

15 Executive Board as a collective body functioned until the 8th of April as

16 can be seen in various documents, communiques, and statements.

17 MS. McKENNA:

18 Q. So just to clarify this point the instructions to which

19 Mr. Stanic was referring are the instructions received from Mr. Karadzic

20 to set up the Serb Municipal Assembly and the Serb bodies; is that

21 correct?

22 A. I think that it is a matter of recommendation rather than

23 instruction. An instruction is something different, as a term, as well

24 as its meaning. I think it was a recommendation. And if one follows up

25 on that recommendation, concludes that the assembly was established on

Page 36630

1 the 25th of December, 1991. I don't think it was the case with the

2 Executive Board though. The conversation you referred to, actually

3 probably refers to an event where I was present at the Main Board of the

4 SDS, and it was done so as to fill in positions by Muslims, which was,

5 later on, actually done.

6 Q. [Overlapping speakers]... let's --

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we ask Ms. McKenna to show us

8 where does it say that this instruction came from me.

9 MS. McKENNA: That -- that.

10 JUDGE KWON: She asked the question, and he -- so he confirmed

11 that -- that instruction or recommendation was coming from -- was -- came

12 from the Main Board or Mr. Karadzic.

13 Do you confirm that, Mr. Mladjenovic?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Karadzic by the Main Board.

15 The Main Board was a collective body. It can make -- reach conclusions

16 and any of the members of the Presidency of that body can sign it.

17 I also managed a collective body when there were sessions.

18 Everyone voted, and then I was the one who signed it. That was the rule.

19 MS. McKENNA:

20 Q. Well, let's explore this issue of what exactly was formed

21 pursuant to these instructions in a little more detail. We were about to

22 discuss the 14th of February meeting in Sarajevo at the Holiday Inn.

23 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter 11021A.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Mladjenovic, as you've just confirmed, you attended

25 this meeting.

Page 36631

1 A. I think I was there.

2 Q. And the transcript for this --

3 Mr. Mladjenovic, this is a transcript of your statement at this

4 meeting. The transcript should be attached. Yes, thank you.

5 MS. McKENNA: If we could please play the audio.

6 [Audio-clip played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I'm speaking on behalf of the

8 Serbian executive committee of Foca and that other one, that is slowly

9 dying. I do not wish to participate in the debate here but I would like

10 to ask some questions that I would like to find answers to. That is, I,

11 as a representative of the people in Foca municipality. Serbian people

12 in Foca municipality. Considering the fact that we did everything that

13 the centre had requested us to do and considering the instructions we

14 received in this field when setting up the Serbian Assembly and

15 Executive Committee, we got far ahead with the work of the

16 Executive Committee for a simple reason at least with some operational

17 issues by which we wish to finally round up the Serbian territory of Foca

18 municipality within the Serbian autonomous region of Herzegovina. Of

19 course, we wouldn't think of resolving the Serbian territory in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina partially. For these reasons, I find it necessary to,

21 first of all, establish Serbian municipalities regardless of the borders

22 of existing municipalities. This is the case with us, and we will not

23 have any regard for that."

24 MS. McKENNA:

25 Q. Now, Mr. Mladjenovic, can you confirm that this was you

Page 36632

1 speaking?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So in this statement, you explicitly emphasise to your colleagues

4 at the SDS that when setting up both the Serbian Assembly and the

5 Executive Committee, you did everything that the centre requested you to

6 do, considering the instructions that you received; isn't that correct?

7 A. I don't think the Executive Board was complete, but the assembly

8 was. Complete in terms of composition.

9 Q. I'm sorry, but just to clarify my question, you -- you formed

10 the -- regardless of whether they were complete in their composition at

11 that point, the assembly and the Executive Committee were formed pursuant

12 to the instructions that you received from Dr. Karadzic and the SDS

13 Main Board; isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, from the Main Board. I don't recall -- well, perhaps it was

15 signed by Karadzic, but I don't think he did because there was no order

16 with any signatures. It was simply an instruction to react out of

17 caution, and it was not applied until the 8th of April, 1992. So a

18 meeting with the Muslims was set up in the same composition of the

19 Executive Board as it functioned before the war. You can see that from

20 the conclusions. There are documents to support that.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

24 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.

Page 36633

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6264, Your Honours.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, can I ask the

3 following: Is the entire transcript of the 14th of February meeting

4 admitted? It was a Plenary not the Main Board.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not all of it was read out.

6 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, you may tender it later on. But we'll

7 admit this part at the moment.

8 But I don't follow the -- page 3 of this transcript.

9 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, that's an additional excerpt which we

10 won't be using, so my colleague, Mr. Reid, will simply upload the excerpt

11 of the transcript.

12 JUDGE KWON: The two pages.

13 MS. McKENNA: Exactly. Thank you for pointing that out.

14 Q. Now I'm going to move on to a different topic, Mr. Mladjenovic.

15 In paragraph 20 of your statement, you discuss the formation of

16 the Crisis Staff on the 3rd of April, 1992, and you state that the local

17 para state and para military factions had stronger influence than the

18 republican commissioner and the local authorities headed by you.

19 And, again, in paragraph 25, you discuss the -- how difficult it

20 was in the circumstances to control the situation which was bordering on

21 anarchy. I would like to explore the issue of who was in control or

22 authority in Foca at the time.

23 Now, the Crisis Staff led the Serb take-over of the Foca

24 municipality, didn't they?

25 A. The Crisis Staff -- please, if I may say just a few things that

Page 36634

1 seem to have been bundled up together without any order.

2 You understand that I'd like to have that in sequence in terms of

3 dates and order. It is true that the Crisis Staff on the Serbian side

4 was established on the 3rd of April, 1992. It is true that, as per

5 function of the Executive Board, as a collective organ, I was the third

6 person on the list. There was the president of the party and president

7 of the municipality, Mr. Milicic, and then it was me, and so on and so

8 forth.

9 As regards that body I have to point out, yet again, joint work

10 until the 8th of April in the afternoon took place with members of the

11 Executive Board of both structures, Muslim and Serb, as you can see in

12 the documents.

13 Q. May I just interrupt you. Your evidence on this is on the record

14 in your statement. Now I'm asking about specific aspects of the

15 take-over. I'd like you to focus on the aspects that I'm asking you.

16 My question is: In respect of the Serb take-over of Foca, the

17 armed take-over, that was led by the Crisis Staff, wasn't it?

18 A. The take-over the power took place, because you mention

19 paramilitary structures and unrest and so on and so forth, and, indeed, I

20 mention it in the statement. But the Crisis Staff reacted after I was

21 actually at the municipal building with four of my associates. That was

22 myself, Mr. Lakovic Jedhen [phoen], who was the head of the Ministry of

23 Defence, and Dzemal Aganovic [phoen]. We returned to invest another

24 effort on the afternoon -- in the afternoon of the 8th of April to try

25 and save the situation so that, in addition to the communique that I

Page 36635

1 signed alongside Mr. Taib that people should not leave their apartments

2 and move about in the streets, and so on and so forth. However, on the

3 8th, it was not possible, and it is not true that we took over, or the

4 Crisis Staff, Serbian Crisis Staff, took over Foca, because only as of

5 the 9th on, there was combat in Alaca [phoen] which is deep inside the

6 territory, upstream the Cehotina river. So Foca was not taken over in

7 five minutes.

8 Q. But again -- it wasn't. I'm not contending that it was,

9 Mr. Mladjenovic. But, again, I'm going to read the statement of

10 Mr. Stanic, who was the president of the Crisis Staff, to you. And again

11 this is from the interview that I mentioned previously.

12 Mr. Stanic states, and this, again, is P3476 for the parties'

13 reference:

14 "I was the commander on behalf of the SDS which enabled me to

15 become the first war commander."

16 He states:

17 "We liberated the town in six days. By the 25th of April, we

18 managed to liberate the whole of Foca municipality, the largest

19 municipality in Republika Srpska. I submitted my war report to the

20 ministerial counsel, as it was then called at the time, at the beginning

21 of June. We were active in the Crisis Staff and later in the army

22 command."

23 So now, according to Crisis Staff president Stanic, the

24 Crisis Staff, under his authority, led the take-over. So does

25 Mr. Stanic's statement refresh your recollection on this point?

Page 36636

1 A. I didn't have to, and logically speaking, it didn't happen that

2 we went to Radio Stara Herzegovina or Radio Foca to issue announcements.

3 Again, it was done by a collective organ. I need to say, though, that I

4 definitely worked not in order to justify - I have to say that - but as

5 of the 3rd, as of the date of establishment, I was active in the

6 Executive Board until the 8th. On the 19th of April, I basically

7 returned to the municipality and began setting up civilian authorities.

8 I had inherited three members, and we needed to find another three who

9 were Serbs. That it true.

10 Q. Thank you. I'm -- again, we're focussing on the specific -- the

11 role of -- the issue of the take-over of the municipality. We'll come

12 onto the civilian authorities in a moment.

13 But just to go back to your statement, in paragraph 30, you state

14 that - and this, again, is during the negotiations - on the 8th of April,

15 you went to the Serb Crisis Staff headquarters in Cerezluk to receive the

16 demands that you were to give to the Muslim side?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And you state a minister in the BH government and president of

19 the Crisis Staff dictated these requests.

20 Now this reference to the minister is a reference to

21 Velibor Ostojic, who was the minister of information in the

22 Republika Srpska government; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you stated that communications for the first two or three

25 days when Mr. Ostojic was in Foca were possible.

Page 36637

1 Just to clarify, Mr. Ostojic was present during the take-over of

2 Foca, wasn't he?

3 A. Not until the end. Not all the way up to the end. I can't guess

4 or estimate because he received information that a government was being

5 set up in Pale and he was supposed to go there. As dictated by logic, he

6 had to resume his work as the then-minister of information in the joint

7 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So he withdrew and left us to the

8 commissioners and to us to do the best we could because we had not had

9 any previous war time experience. We had to go on our intuition and

10 knowledge that we had obtained in the previous organs or structures.

11 Q. I want to focus right now on the -- the issue of whether

12 Mr. Ostojic was present in Foca during the take-over. You've said that

13 he was not there until the end, but he was there at the beginning of the

14 take-over; is that correct?

15 A. Just a second. Yesterday I stated here that through activities

16 of joint forces of Gradska and Foca definitely in late September and up

17 until the 10th of October, the territory of Foca was finally determined,

18 administratively speaking. We stopped at those borders and nothing moved

19 until the Dayton accords. Our units did not go out to Foca or out of the

20 municipality of Foca to the neighbouring municipalities.

21 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, my -- my question relates to when

22 Velibor Ostojic was present in Foca. Now, there is a report from

23 Mr. Foca [sic] in evidence before the trial that's P -- excuse me, from

24 Ostojic. That's P3338. And it's a report from Foca on Belgrade Radio

25 dated 14th of April, 1992, where he states:

Page 36638

1 "The Serbian Territorial Defence is controlling a huge part of

2 the town. The entire Serb Territorial Defence in the Foca commune is on

3 its feet."

4 So, again, I'll ask you to confirm that Mr. Ostojic was present

5 during the Serb take-over of Foca; isn't that correct?

6 A. He was definitely not there. If you believe that the take-over

7 took place on the 19th, when civilian authorities basically started

8 functioning. When I returned to the municipality with my associates, I

9 think he left Foca before that. I think he was there on the 7th or 8th.

10 He was definitely there then.

11 As for what you mentioned, the 16th Company, I didn't have time

12 to tell Varac Ekmen [phoen], a member of the Municipal Board, to tell

13 anything because shooting had started. I simply gave that paper to him

14 and, indeed, he replied, saying we had to have known. And I didn't even

15 really go to the gist of it, to tell you the truth, because minutes under

16 such circumstances are like years.

17 Q. Thank you. Again, I'm focussing right now on the issue of who

18 was in control during the take-over.

19 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter number 40609A, please.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Mladjenovic, this is a video with Mr. Ostojic and it's

21 an interview with a BBC journalist 18 months after the conflict broke out

22 in Foca. I'd just like you to listen to what he says about the Foca

23 take-over.

24 MS. McKENNA: If we could play the video, please.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 36639

1 "... people who were running in the town in the spring and summer

2 of last year?

3 "People we have talked to say that you were clearly one of the

4 people who were running the town in the spring and summer of last year.

5 "No. Foca was run by the Crisis Staff. I was in Foca for a

6 certain period of time only as I was in other parts of the republic. My

7 task was to preserve property and establish civilian authority in all

8 parts of Republika Srpska."

9 MS. McKENNA:

10 Q. So, Mr. Mladjenovic, according to Mr. Ostojic, he was in Foca to

11 help establish civilian authority. Is that consistent with your

12 recollection?

13 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I don't read what

14 Mr. Ostojic said that way. He said he was in Foca for a certain period

15 of time as he was in other parts of the republic. And then he said that

16 his task was to preserve property and establish civilian authority in all

17 parts of Republika Srpska.

18 So I don't think that's a very fair question given the text.

19 JUDGE KWON: In any event, the transcript doesn't seem to be

20 correct.

21 Very well.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the transcript,

23 Excellency? Let's see how this was translated.

24 MS. McKENNA: [Previous translation continues] ...

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have a number for the entire

Page 36640

1 transcript. There are a lot of redacted places.

2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Why don't we play it again.

3 MS. McKENNA: If we play it again, I think that should clarify

4 matters.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 "... that you were clearly one of the people who were running

7 the town in the spring and summer of last year

8 "People we have talked to, the refugees, say that you were

9 clearly one of the people who were running the town in the --

10 "No, Foca was run by the Crisis Staff. I was in Foca for a

11 certain period of time only as I was in other parts of republic for a

12 certain period of time. My task was to preserve property and to

13 establish civilian authority in all parts of Republika Srpska."

14 JUDGE KWON: And what is your question, Ms. McKenna?

15 MS. McKENNA:

16 Q. My question was that -- well, as according to Mr. Ostojic, he was

17 in Foca to help establish civilian authority, and -- is that consistent

18 with your recollection? As ...

19 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, my objection was that this

20 mischaracterises what was said by Mr. Ostojic.

21 MS. McKENNA: I don't read it as a mischaracterisation, but I can

22 rephrase the question.

23 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

24 MS. McKENNA:

25 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, Mr. Ostojic says that his task was to establish

Page 36641

1 civilian authority in all parts of the Republika Srpska. Do you accept

2 that he was in Foca to establish -- to help establish civilian authority?

3 A. I'm more prone to believing that closer to the truth is the fact

4 that he was in that area because his mother lived there. He just

5 happened to be there. And then he could not return either to Pale or to

6 Sarajevo, in particular. I believe that his intentions were good. But

7 when I returned a couple of days later, perhaps on the 22nd or 23rd, or

8 thereabouts, he told me that we, members of the Executive Board, were

9 dragging our feet and then he -- and then he concluded that he was in our

10 way. We admitted that that was the fact, and then he left to Pale. And

11 then, from time to time, he would return. He returned to Pale and -- he

12 basically got out of our hair and let us do what we could.

13 Q. Well, according to Mr. Ostojic, Foca was run by the Crisis Staff.

14 Is that consistent with your recollection?

15 A. During the early days, there was a Crisis Staff, and there was

16 the staff of the Territorial Defence of the Serbian army. That's what it

17 was called. These were the roots of the creation of more organised

18 units. Only after the election of President Karadzic on 12th of May was

19 the military established at that same assembly session which was probably

20 in Banja Luka, but I'm not sure. Then the situation improved. The

21 situation in the military improved. The military was a very serious

22 structure. It lacked inorganisation [as interpreted] in terms of

23 formations and it lacked in personnel, of course. And then the officers

24 who had served in the JNA returned because they hailed from the

25 municipality of Foca, and then the military started being more organised,

Page 36642

1 and it started being organised into military units.

2 Q. But you agree that in the early days, the Crisis Staff was the

3 authority in the town.

4 A. Well, perhaps some of the component affiliated with the army and

5 the TO staff. And this certainly didn't interfere. Maybe they

6 overlapped with the civilian issues that were topical at the time. In

7 other words, that situation imposed the tasks of the Crisis Staff which

8 you can see in the published documents. You can see that the

9 Crisis Staff stopped working at the moment when conditions were in place

10 for the municipal assembly to start functioning. Then the conclusions

11 and decisions would be taken over and approved by the assembly itself.

12 Q. Thank you. We'll come onto that stage.

13 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender this video.

14 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we ask for the number of the

16 integral transcript because we may want to use parts thereof once we see

17 what has been redacted.

18 MS. McKENNA: Certainly we'll forward it to you.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, could you expand on the reason why

20 you're objecting to the admission.

21 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, I said we had no objection.

22 JUDGE KWON: Oh, I'm sorry. My fault. We'll admit it.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6265, Your Honours.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MS. McKENNA:

Page 36643

1 Q. Just finally on this topic of law and order at that time,

2 Mr. Ostojic said in -- actually, could we have P4986, please.

3 So, Mr. Mladjenovic, this is a report dated the

4 30th of April, 1992, from Velibor Ostojic to the Republika Srpska

5 government providing information on the achievements of the

6 Serb Territorial Defence in the Foca area.

7 And it's stated that the Foca Serb TO has been cleaning up the

8 Foca area and has liberated the Ustikolina area.

9 And in the final paragraph it states:

10 "Situation in the liberated areas is stabilising because of the

11 rule of law and because the institutions of civilian authority have

12 control over the overall situation."

13 So, in fact, the local authorities had a significant degree of

14 control over what was going on in Foca, didn't they?

15 A. I don't want to brag, but let it be the way you put it.

16 We tried to have the civilian authorities functioning and dealing

17 with all the issues. At that time, a significant number - and I repeat,

18 a significant number - of the Muslims were in the city.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said -- didn't say, "I

22 don't want to brag." He said that he bragged, that Mr. Ostojic bragged,

23 that he was trying to take a more credit and that was due to him. That's

24 on line 25, page 27.

25 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Mladjenovic?

Page 36644

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, I would be much

2 happier if the situation was as described in here. But I am afraid that

3 Mr. Ostojic, who was minister at the time, bragged a little. It was not

4 all a bad -- a bed of roses, you know.

5 MS. McKENNA:

6 Q. Okay. Well, let's come on to the issue of the Serb forces that

7 were present in Foca.

8 Now, at paragraphs 42 to 44 of your statement, you discuss at

9 some length the Serb forces who were in Foca at the start of the

10 conflict. You speak about one group of men commanded by a Lainovic, one

11 group of men known colloquially as the Belgrade Battalion who came

12 around --

13 A. Lainovic.

14 Q. So there was Lainovic's men. There was a group of men you

15 referred to as the Belgrade Battalion who came around 15th of May and

16 withdrew at the same time as the JNA and there were other officers

17 operating as part of the Serbian TO forces until their withdrawal with

18 the JNA in May 1992.

19 Now, in your discussion of Serb forces during the take-over, it's

20 strange that there's no mention of the officers operating as part of the

21 Serb forces who remained in Foca after the JNA left --

22 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna, I apologise. Chamber needs to rise at

23 this moment. We'll have a break for half an hour.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

Page 36645

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna. I apologise again for the

2 interruption. Please continue.

3 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, we were just coming onto discuss the Serb

5 forces that remained in the Foca area after the JNA withdrawal.

6 Now, the civilian authorities in Foca closely liaised with the

7 military authorities in pursuit of their shared goals, didn't they?

8 A. I have to correct you straight away. Military formations and

9 paramilitaries that appeared at the very beginning of the war in Foca --

10 on the 15th of May, the Army of Republika Srpska was officially set up,

11 and they withdrew. It was not a battalion. There were some 60 men or

12 so. That's we called them, because the locals who hailed from Belgrade

13 and Foca -- and, for that reason, that's what we called them.

14 Q. Thank you. And we're going to come on to discuss those soldiers

15 who remained in Foca. But I would just like to ask you to confirm that

16 the civilian authorities and the military authorities liaised closely.

17 A. Only to the extent necessary.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter number 24897.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Mladjenovic, you'll see that this is a document dated

21 17th of September, 1992, and it's an appointment by Mr. Karadzic of

22 members of the War Commission. And it lists Mr. Stanic, Marko Kovac,

23 yourself, and Nedo Radovic.

24 Now, just to confirm, Marko Kovac was the commander of the

25 Tactical Group Foca; isn't that correct?

Page 36646

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So this is Mr. Stanic, yourself, and yourself on a commission

3 with Commander Kovac suggests a close liaison between you, doesn't it?

4 A. Let me tell you straight away. I've not seen this paper before.

5 Ever. I suppose that I was in that group because of supplies and

6 logistic support. I liaised with companies to make sure that they

7 received salaries. That was my role. I have not seen this paper before.

8 And that commission or whatever body that was, that was the only manner

9 in which I could be engaged in it.

10 And let me tell you also that on the 17th of September, 1992, the

11 Crisis Staff had long stopped working when the regular Army of

12 Republika Srpska was set up, and that was on the 12th of July, 1992.

13 Q. Thank you. We're discussing the co-operation between the

14 civilian authorities, that's you, and the military authorities.

15 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document,

16 please.

17 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6266, Your Honours.

20 MS. McKENNA:

21 Q. Now, on the same date as you were appointed to this commission,

22 you attended the meeting with Mladic that you just spoke about earlier in

23 your testimony today.

24 If we could have P1480, please.

25 While the document is coming up, Mr. Mladjenovic, other

Page 36647

1 attendees of this meeting, included the Tactical Group Foca commander

2 Kovac, Mr. Stanic, Mr. Maksimovic, and the Foca Municipal Assembly

3 president, Milicic.

4 I'm interested in page 66 of the document, when we have it.

5 So you'll see here a statement by Mr. Stanic, who is head of the

6 War Presidency, and he states that until the 2nd of June, 1992, he was

7 troops commander. And he goes on:

8 "The population of Foca, before the war, was 42.000, of which

9 number around 51 per cent were Muslims, and 49 per cent Serbs and

10 Montenegrins. Now the percentage of Serbs in Foca is 99 per cent."

11 States they can receive 5.000 refugees and the civilian

12 government is functioning.

13 So this update by Mr. Stanic to Mr. Mladic, in the presence of

14 these other military and civilian authorities, suggests a close liaison

15 between those authorities, doesn't it?

16 A. It existed to the extend needed. As far as the civilian

17 authorities are concerned, they were concerned with logistics, the supply

18 of food, clothes, footwear, and the salaries. And I suppose that both

19 Milicic and I appeared in that sense.

20 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about who the military forces were.

21 At paragraph 52 of your statement, you say that - with reference

22 to adjudicated fact number 797 - that the house at the address

23 Osmana Djikica 16 was never the headquarters or housed any units of the

24 regular army at that time.

25 Now, it's on the record before this Chamber that, among those who

Page 36648

1 lived at that address, were members of the group led by

2 Dragoljub Kunarac. That for the parties' reference is adjudicated fact

3 797 and 799. Kunarac was known as Zaga; isn't that correct?

4 A. It is correct that he was known by his nickname, but I claim

5 categorically that he -- there was never a military staff there. He

6 didn't have a military staff. He acted together with a few people in the

7 early days of the war, and those units were outside of regular units.

8 And when it comes to the staff, the staff of the tactical group or the

9 military command was 3 kilometres away from Foca, east of Foca, in the

10 former women's prison.

11 Q. So --

12 A. I don't know whether it was used for any other purposes, but it

13 is possible.

14 Q. Is it your position that the unit led by Zaga was not part of the

15 Tactical Group Foca?

16 A. Not at first. I believe that they were subjected to destructive

17 activities and inflicted a lot of harm to the Serbian citizens of Foca

18 and all the other honest people of Foca. So their activities were

19 detrimental to them.

20 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have P3354.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Mladjenovic, this is an order from the commander of the

22 Foca Tactical Group. And it's dated the 7th of July, 1992.

23 MS. McKENNA: Could we -- and if we go to the last page --

24 Q. You'll see that it's signed by Commander Marko Kovac.

25 MS. McKENNA: Now could we please have page 4 of the B/C/S and

Page 36649

1 page 3 of the English version.

2 Q. And I'd like to focus your attention under the heading command

3 post Ustikolina. And the second bullet point it states:

4 "The independent Zaga detachment shall take part in mopping up

5 settled areas in the direction of the 5th Battalion's attack."

6 A. Yes, that's bullet point 3, right? Bullet point 3.

7 Q. So this document, according to this document, the unit led by

8 Zaga was part of the Tactical Group Foca; isn't that correct?

9 A. I can't agree with that. At the beginning of the war, I believe

10 that he had worked in Montenegro, and then he arrived. And after the

11 12th most certainly because this date followed the setting up of the

12 tactical group and the consolidation of the army, so after the 12th of

13 May, you can check that. After the 12th of May. Then it was possibly

14 involved or his unit became a part or acted in concert with the regular

15 units of the Army of Republika Srpska but not at the very beginning, no.

16 Q. And so Kunarac and his men who committed systematic rapes and

17 abuse at Osmana Djikica 16 and other locations in and around Foca were

18 part of tactical group Foca which was a part of the regular armed forces

19 at the time.

20 A. All of that happened in the month of April. I just associated

21 that that facility was not used for the unit command but for other

22 purposes. Maybe you will recall that that's exactly what I stated for

23 something that was detrimental and stirred the humanity, i.e.,

24 contributed to a phase of uninterrupted hatred and against the Serbian

25 population with regard to what they did. And I stated what I thought

Page 36650

1 about that, and I honestly and deeply apologise to the victims who were

2 treated in that way, and I sincerely sympathise with them. And I also

3 have to say that I have a need at one moment not to justify anything but

4 to present a fact, if you allow me, in a closed session, of course.

5 Perhaps it may benefit somebody and particularly the Prosecutor and the

6 Trial Chamber.

7 Q. I suggest that if Mr. Karadzic wants to pursue this issue he will

8 do it in his re-examination, but right now I'd like to focus on the -- my

9 questions.

10 A. [In English] Okay.

11 Q. And you have stated that these abused happened in the month of

12 April. The Trial Chamber has heard evidence that at the partisan sports

13 hall at Foca high school in the Buk Bijela huts in Karaman's house in

14 Miljevina and in other detentions in and around Foca throughout 1991 --

15 sorry, excuse me, 1992, many Muslim women were subjected to repeated

16 rapes by multiple perpetrators. And one witness, KDZ216 stated that it

17 was generally known that soldiers were -- stated in regard to the women

18 at the partisan sports hall:

19 "It was generally known that soldiers were coming and taking them

20 away and forces them to have sexual relations with them."

21 Now, in your statement, you, at paragraph 49, you state the

22 perpetrators were processed and punished.

23 Firstly let's talk about the protection that was afforded to the

24 women by the Foca authorities in these detention centres. It is on the

25 record before this Chamber that the chief of police and the member -- and

Page 36651

1 a member of the Foca Crisis Staff, Dragan Gagovic, to whom you refer in

2 your statement, was one of the men who came to Kalinovik school, Foca

3 high school, and partisan sports hall and take women out and rape them.

4 And that's adjudicated fact 814.

5 Were you aware of Mr. Gagovic's participation in the rapes?

6 A. [Interpretation] Absolutely not. I would be disappointed,

7 although we're talking about a deceased man, I would be very disappointed

8 if he took part in that.

9 Let tell you straight away that I cannot believe that in view of

10 the personality involved. This person was involved in protection and

11 other forms of co-operation. Old women, children, old men who were in

12 the territory of the municipality of Foca for a while. As for partisan,

13 I mean, there were certain police structures. I mean, there was guard

14 duty. However, pathological persons and persons who got hold of weapons,

15 they were all armed, it was hard to stand up to these bullies and --

16 Q. Well, let's -- let's talk about the identity of some of these

17 pathological persons who were involved.

18 Pero Elez was identified by KDZ216 as the commander of the

19 soldiers in Karremans house. He decided which soldiers would be given to

20 which girls. And the reference for what is P69, page 43, and P90,

21 page 10.

22 Secondly, Gojko Jankovic was in charge of the detention centre at

23 Buk Bijela where women from the village of Trosanj were taken and

24 multiple rapes were perpetrated. And that reference is P90 and pages 7

25 and 14 and adjudicated fact 2407.

Page 36652

1 Now Gojko Jankovic was convicted by the Court of BiH in 2007 for

2 his role in the attacks on Foca's non-Serb civilian population.

3 Brane Cosovic commanded the military unit to which Radomir Kovac and

4 Zoran Vukovic belonged. And again that's KDZ216, P69, page 73, and both

5 Kovac and Vukovic were convicted of rape by this Tribunal, not by any

6 court in Foca.

7 Now, these three individuals, Elez, Jankovic and Cosovic, were

8 all praised by Stanic for their achievements in the liberation of Foca,

9 in his interview that we have referred to previously. That's at P6081

10 for the parties' reference.

11 So, in fact, the perpetrators were not punished by the civilian

12 and military authority, were they?

13 A. They could not have been punished.

14 As for praise to these individuals by Mr. Stanic, that is his

15 private view. I would absolutely disagree. Perhaps they were

16 combatants, good combatants, but as for the crimes they were charged with

17 before this Tribunal and for which they were punished there is absolutely

18 no justification and I sincerely regret the fact that this happened. And

19 I believe that all persons of integrity in Foca also regret because of

20 this stain on the reputation of Foca.

21 Q. Well, let's see how the authorities dealt with another one of the

22 rapist. Radovan Stankovic was convicted by the court of BiH in 2006 for

23 rapes and abuse committed at Karaman's house. Were you aware of this

24 conviction?

25 A. Yes. And he served his sentence at the KPZ Foca and by way of a

Page 36653

1 manoeuvre, obviously there was some lack of attention, and he managed to

2 escape.

3 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

4 A. And again, again -- sorry.

5 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter number 23625.

6 Q. Now this is an order dated 7th of April, 1995, from

7 President Karadzic to the VRS Main Staff to transfer a group of

8 conscripts from the VRS to the Ministry of Interior in order to form a

9 detachment of special police forces in Srbinje?

10 And if we could go to page 2 of this document in both versions.

11 You'll see that entry number one is Radovan Stankovic, detachment

12 commander. So, again, this shows that, rather than being processed and

13 punished as you contend in your statement, Stankovic remained within the

14 VRS; isn't that correct?

15 A. I have to tell you that Mr. Karadzic acted probably - most

16 probably - on someone's proposal because he absolutely did not know

17 Radovan Stankovic, I think, and he had no reason to know him. Then

18 someone from the military structure either knew of what he did during the

19 first years of the war - well, that I don't know - but it is quite

20 certain that, had Mr. Karadzic known, he would have eliminated him,

21 100 percent. And many other proposals that had come from Foca. Believe

22 me, I don't know who proposed him unless there's a signature after that

23 proposal. I assume there is a signature?

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mladjenovic.

25 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender this document, please.

Page 36654

1 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6267, Your Honours.

4 MS. McKENNA:

5 Q. I'd like to return briefly to the issue of the village of

6 Trosanj. You described your role in negotiating the agreement of

7 24th April 1992 between the people of Trosanj and the government of Foca

8 representatives and the contents of that agreement.

9 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have D3316.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document is a familiar one.

11 MS. McKENNA:

12 Q. It's your signature on this agreement; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, yes, yes.

14 Q. And at paragraph 5 of the agreement, it states that:

15 "All inhabitants of the village of Trosanj of Muslim ethnicity

16 who surrender their weapons shall be guaranteed all the rights and

17 freedoms stipulated by the constitution of the Serb republic of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina which includes the security of their lives, their

19 families' lives, and of their property."

20 Now statements were made to the OTP by villagers from Trosanj

21 that the weapons were, indeed, handed in, and receipts were given for

22 this hand-over. And Witnesses 75 and 96 in the Kunarac case testified to

23 that effect. And yet were you aware of this happening?

24 A. Could you explain this to me? What is it that was happening? I

25 know that I was in my office. Three men came. And the head of a company

Page 36655

1 or a battalion - I'm not quite sure - came, escorted by them, and we

2 talked about what could be done in order not to wage war and to spare

3 property. Please --

4 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. Were you aware that weapons were, in

5 fact, handed in by Muslims and receipts given to them by the Serb

6 authorities for those weapons pursuant to this agreement?

7 A. No. Let me say that straight away, but may I just draw your

8 attention to paragraph 2, the hand-over of weapons of all Serbs who are

9 not involved in military units. And also that weapons will be taken over

10 along with receipts, and so on. I already said in my statement that

11 perhaps I did not get return information. Do read that. That was

12 truthful, but what was said was that they had started bearing weapons,

13 and so on, and then this agreement was not observed.

14 So I did talk to people with the best of intentions. I even

15 talked to Jelec, the representative. Although an influential person from

16 Miljevac talked to Jelec, too, a person I knew myself, and somebody who

17 was involved in trade.

18 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, as I stated, the previous Trial Chambers have

19 heard evidence that weapons were, in fact, handed in. And yet despite

20 this fact, on the 3rd of July, the village was surrounded and attacked by

21 Serb soldiers. And, again, Gojko Jankovic, a man praised by Stanic, was

22 involved in this attack. That's adjudicated fact 2398.

23 Now, during this attack, villagers were -- civilian villagers

24 were brutally beaten and some were killed. And today you say -- and

25 excuse me, and women were taken from -- civilian villagers -- civilian

Page 36656

1 women were taken from the village of Trosanj into detentions at the

2 workers's huts in Buk Bijela where many were raped repeatedly.

3 Now, in your statement you say that you may not have been

4 properly informed by your side of the events of Trosanj. But were you

5 aware that civilians were brutally beaten and killed in the Serb attack

6 on the village?

7 A. I have to tell you quite sincerely that after this talk and this

8 written trail, I did not contact people so that was this obligation on

9 the part of the military component to check this, to take weapons from

10 Serbs and Muslims and to return weapons when the conditions were right.

11 That is what is written there, and that's why I signed this paper. I was

12 counting on seriousness.

13 I left open the possibility that perhaps my side, the military,

14 had not come back to me on this, whether this was being buried or not.

15 Unfortunately, I did not have an opportunity for seeing -- of seeing this

16 myself. And that was the case with Jelec, too. A bit modified --

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I am aware I'm over time. I would

19 like to move on to the final topic which is the KP Dom, with your

20 indulgence.

21 JUDGE KWON: How long would that take?

22 MS. McKENNA: 15 minutes, Your Honour.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes, please proceed.

25 MS. McKENNA: I'm very grateful, Your Honours.

Page 36657

1 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, in paragraph 48 of your statement, you state

2 that the KP Dom became a military prison in war time. And you state that

3 the civilian authorities' relationship with the KP Dom was minor.

4 The Trial Chamber has heard evidence that the detainees at KP Dom

5 were civilians. And these detainees included civilians brought from

6 Livade, which you mention in your statement, at paragraph 36. And for

7 the parties' reference, I'm referring to KDZ239's testimony at T 18915.

8 And this witness stated:

9 "They took us prisoner at our places of work in the streets, in

10 our homes. Some people were hiding in the woods. And they found them

11 there and brought them to the KP Dom. At any rate, no was one there who

12 had been at the front line."

13 So it's not correct, is it, that as you contend in your

14 statements only perpetrators of violations of military rules and crime

15 were held in the KP Dom?

16 A. Let me tell you straight away that I did not even have time to

17 say yes or no to you; but I want to tell you, as far as the KP Dom is

18 concerned, it became a military prison, having been an civilian prison

19 beforehand, but chronologically I would like to go back to that.

20 Indeed, some persons, some Muslims, were brought from Livade,

21 three physicians included. I think that they were in the area of the

22 separation line on that day by the health centre. Dr. Avdo Sadinlija is

23 somebody I knew personally. We were friends from the tennis club, and so

24 on. He was brought in. As far as I found out, Dr. Asima Pilav and

25 Ibrahim Karovic, who headed the SDA list for Foca for the BH National

Page 36658

1 Assembly. I'm not saying there weren't any Serbs; I'm just not sure.

2 They stayed for a few days and they were released. They were allowed to

3 go home. Whereas Dr. Avdo Sadinlija was exchanged because he had an

4 influential brother and probably other relatives, so he was exchanged for

5 a professor of the medical faculty of Sarajevo, Milutin Najdanovic. I

6 think that originally he had come from Nis but he was monstrously killed

7 in Sarajevo after the exchange. I think he was even a member of

8 parliament, but I'm not sure. So that's the package of -- or, rather,

9 it's the fate of these persons. I do apologise. That's how it was.

10 As far as the KP Dom is concerned, it is correct that on the

11 15th of April, at an ad hoc meeting, but -- well, so when the command was

12 at the school, on the 15th of April, 1992, we appointed Mr. Krnojelac as

13 acting warden of the KP Dom when nobody --

14 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. We will come on to the appointment

15 of Mr. Krnojelac. I just want to focus --

16 A. This is the chronology of events. And you go ahead and ask.

17 Q. Thank you. I'd like to focus on the fact that civilians were

18 detained at the KP Dom. Now, at paragraph 31 of your statement, you

19 mention a large number of refugees who had fled to Montenegro. The

20 Trial Chamber has heard evidence from a Muslim refugee who, together with

21 other Muslim refugees, was arrested in Montenegro on the

22 21st of May, 1992, by a senior police officer from Foca and transferred

23 back to the KP Dom where he was detained for 29 months and 16 days. And

24 that's KDZ017; P3567, pages 7 to 16.

25 Mr. Mladjenovic, were you aware that civilians who had left Foca

Page 36659

1 were being brought back by Foca police and detained in the KP Dom?

2 A. I think that the Office of the Prosecutor of Montenegro dealt

3 with some of the people who took part in that. That means that they were

4 prosecuted and convicted.

5 As for the day of appointment of Mr. Krnojelac, not a single

6 detainee was at the KP Dom. That happened later. Let me tell you

7 straight away. Indeed, there was withdrawal involved, but it was the

8 Muslim units that were first to arrive at the KP Dom because they had

9 inhabited Donje Polje, that's what it's called. This is the local

10 terrain there. After that, it was used as a military prison and the

11 military command, or rather, the army, absolutely totally had its

12 disposal, the security and everything, except that civilian structures

13 provided food for humanitarian reasons and also --

14 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

15 A. -- soap and detergents and things likes that. Well, not to

16 discuss it at great length.

17 Q. Let's discuss then in greater detail the involvement of the

18 civilian authorities in the KP Dom. There is a request dated

19 8th of May, 1992, from Mr. Stanic as the commander of the TG Foca to the

20 KP Dom for the allocation of rooms within the compound for the

21 accommodation of prisoners of war. That's P3341. And then on a decision

22 from Mr. Krnojelac pursuant to this request, allocating the premises of

23 the KP Dom for the accommodation of prisoners of war and detainees, and

24 that's P3342.

25 So in fact the KP Dom was set up as a detention centre on the

Page 36660

1 instructions of Crisis Staff President Stanic; is that correct?

2 A. I think, or, rather, I claim that this was a military prison.

3 And as for the further treatment, in terms of judicial processes and how

4 it was treated, believe me, I don't know. But certainly the army was in

5 charge. They brought people in. They took them for exchanges. It was

6 only the military factor.

7 As for this correspondence between Mr. Stanic and Mr. Krnojelac

8 believe me, I don't know. I didn't have to know about this. But do

9 believe me that I don't know what kind of rooms he asked for. Probably

10 for putting up these person who were being brought in.

11 Q. You acknowledge that civilian authorities appointed Mr. Krnojelac

12 as warden of the KP Dom, but you were also actively involved in the

13 appointment and engagement of KP Dom employees, weren't you?

14 A. No, I mean, for Mr. Krnojelac, yes, and I'm not challenging that

15 at all. He was appointed. This area was not inhabited. Not a single

16 person had been brought in when he was appointed. This was done in order

17 to protect this property that was vast.

18 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

19 A. He was a exemplary person, a mathematics teacher, and reserve

20 captain, and that was it. Well, we didn't know --

21 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, we're very limited in time. I'm going to move

22 on.

23 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see P3340.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

25 MS. McKENNA:

Page 36661

1 Q. So this is a decision of 26th of April, 1992, signed by you, in

2 your capacity as president of the Executive Board, allowing the Foca

3 penal and correction facility - that's the KP Dom - to introduce the work

4 obligation for people who are able to work and not engaged in the VJ.

5 So you, on behalf of the Crisis Staff, approved the engagement of

6 certain workers in the KP Dom under obligation; isn't that correct?

7 A. No. This has to do with the guard service or, rather, the

8 security service. Because I assume that Krnojelac had asked. And then

9 we agreed to provide persons for work obligation, people who were capable

10 of work. Muslims, perhaps, did not appear in the army in 1991 and 1992,

11 so it had to do with Serbs who were supposed to guard the premises.

12 Because, of course, Krnojelac himself could not have guarded the entire

13 property. Very often, these were retirees, employees of the KP Dom or

14 other persons like policemen who were outside or, rather, who had worked

15 before within the security service there. Either on the premises or

16 outside.

17 Q. Thank you. Could we please have 65 ter number 8479.

18 Now we've seen how you were involved in the appointment of the

19 guards for the KP Dom. This --

20 A. This is all the personnel that was there before or after people

21 were being brought in or before things were moved under military control.

22 That's why.

23 Q. This is a request, Mr. Mladjenovic, from KP Dom warden Krnojelac

24 to the Crisis Staff, dated 20th of May, 1992. And he says:

25 "We hereby request the appointment of authorised persons for

Page 36662

1 questioning and examination of captured persons who have been brought to

2 the penal and correctional facility Foca."

3 So the Crisis Staff approval was also required for the

4 appointment of interrogators at the KP Dom; is that correct?

5 A. I suppose so. I suppose so. But these were military security

6 officers, as well as some MUP inspectors.

7 MS. McKENNA: May I tender this document, please.

8 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6268, Your Honours.

11 MS. McKENNA:

12 Q. And in addition to decisions on who was employed at the KP Dom,

13 the Crisis Staff was also involved in decisions on detention and release

14 from the KP Dom; isn't that correct?

15 A. There was no room for that or need. Actually, there was no time

16 for it because the expire date of the Crisis Staff had passed. I think

17 you mentioned the 2nd of June. Ultimately, this tallies with the

18 establishment of regular units and making the military structure more

19 responsive or serious, so to say, to do away with all those who came to

20 loot.

21 Q. Mr. --

22 A. As I said previously, all of the citizens thought that it would

23 have been better if they had not come.

24 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, there are release letters issued by the Foca

25 Crisis Staff to KP Dom detainees, dated 7th of May, 1992,

Page 36663

1 21st of May, 1992, and 7th of July, 1992, in evidence before the Chamber.

2 And that's P5540, P5539, and P5526.

3 There is also a list dated the 9th of May, 1992, of people --

4 MS. McKENNA: Actually, if we could just briefly look at this

5 document. It's P3346.

6 Q. It says a list of people to be released without interrogation,

7 signed by the Foca Crisis Staff.

8 Mr. Mladjenovic, Witness KDZ239 testified before this Chamber

9 that all those listed in this document were dead, and that's at T 18921

10 and 18979.

11 In your statement, at paragraph 38, he state that with regard to

12 the killings in the town, attempts were made to prevent them as much as

13 possible and they were isolated individual cases.

14 There's a wealth of evidence before this Trial Chamber of

15 systematic killing of groups of KP Dom detainees.

16 MS. McKENNA: For the parties' reference, KDZ239, P3335, T 1235

17 to 1259, T 1265 to 1266; KDZ017's evidence, that's P56 -- sorry. P3566,

18 at page 2387; and adjudicated facts 878 to 900.

19 So contrary to your statement, the killings of non-Serbs in the

20 KP Dom in Foca were not isolated incidents but, rather, they were

21 frequent and they were systematic. Do you agree?

22 A. Let me tell you, I cannot agree with that for the simple reason

23 that it was taking place within the KP Dom with their personnel. As

24 regards Miljevina and the people mentioned on the list, I don't know who

25 signed it, but Miljevina is some 11 kilometres away. I didn't know about

Page 36664

1 it. I wasn't familiar with it. I had no intention to say anything wrong

2 to you or the public. Simply put, in the town where I spent the most of

3 my time, it was not my impression that there were any mass killings there

4 but, rather, that these were individual cases that could be investigated

5 by experts. So individual cases.

6 As regards Miljevina and the KP Dom when people were being

7 brought in and taken away, it was said that they were going to be

8 exchanged. Now whether they were or not, I can't say, because I was not

9 a witness to it. I couldn't be in every place as physics dictates. I

10 couldn't have been in two places at the same time.

11 In any case, if this was confirmed through witness testimony,

12 then it must have taken place. However, it is in the area of Miljevina

13 which I did not visit in the war much. The road could only be used in

14 1993 to travel between Foca, Trnovo and Sarajevo. That was in 1993, I

15 think.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mladjenovic. And thank you for answering my

17 questions.

18 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I have no further questions for the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

21 MS. McKENNA: Thank you for your indulgence in relation to the

22 time.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 36665

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mladjenovic, on page 48, you said if this

2 was confirmed by witness testimony, then it must have happened.

3 Does it mean that we accept that the witness in question told the

4 truth?

5 A. Well, that's a bit -- that's the big question. I'm trying to

6 testify here fairly and honestly. That was my intention. Indeed, it

7 could happen that the person in question was not honest. It happened

8 that Muslims who reported a victim, then appear at elections as was the

9 case in many locations throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 So this doesn't need to be true.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the document back,

13 P3346.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. It was suggested to you that the decision to release these people

16 was made by the Crisis Staff of Foca. Please read out aloud the first

17 sentence underneath the title which says "list."

18 A. "Pursuant to a request of the Miljevina Territorial Defence and

19 the approval of the 7th Battalion Command, the following persons shall be

20 released without interrogation."

21 You are correct, Mr. Karadzic. It doesn't say the Crisis Staff.

22 It says the 7th Battalion Command and Miljevina. I'm surprised to see

23 that they were released without any interrogation. I don't know what it

24 was about.

25 Q. Thank you. Tell us this, please, did they ask for it or request?

Page 36666

1 What is the third word? Did they demand it or ask for it?

2 A. "Pursuant to a request of the Miljevina Territorial Defence and

3 the approval of the 7th Battalion Command, the following persons shall be

4 released without interrogation."

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this is nothing to

6 do with the witness. It has to do with interpretation. It has to be

7 interpreted by "demand," rather than "request."

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is our professional

9 assessment as stated in the interpretation. Mr. Karadzic can request

10 clarification.

11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

12 I think a word -- is a word missing from the English translation?

13 Mr. Mladjenovic, could you kindly read out the sentence which

14 appears below "the list."

15 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

16 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, above "the list." So --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Above "the list":

18 "Pursuant to a request by the Miljevina Territorial Defence and

19 the approval of the 7th Battalion Command, the following persons shall be

20 released without an interrogation."

21 And then we have a list of 18 people, I think.

22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I note that the "request" is missing

23 from the English translation.

24 You confirm that, Ms. McKenna?

25 MS. McKENNA: I've also observed that, Your Honour.

Page 36667

1 JUDGE KWON: Shall we proceed?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. But the word "zahtjeva" is

3 still in question. The Territorial Defence cannot request. Can we have

4 that clarified.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. How would you translate "pursuant to their asking for"?

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, if you have problem -- issue with the

8 translation of this word "zahtjeva" you may request officially to the

9 CLSS in writing.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. But I'd like to ask the witness whether there's a difference

13 between "zahtjev" [phoen] and "tranzinje" [phoen].

14 A. Of course. But the sheer nature of things, the two words exist

15 due to their difference in meaning and not ...

16 Q. Thank you. You said that, at the outset, the KP Dom prison was

17 under the civilian authorities. What happened with the people after

18 interrogations? What was the outcome of such interrogations?

19 A. I have to say that, at the beginning of the war, it was never

20 under the civilian authorities. It was under the military component,

21 which, at the time, first, was the units of the TO, and then in May, on

22 the 12th, regular units were established. By virtue of that, the

23 civilian authorities lost any competence. It was converted to a military

24 prison. Indeed, during their -- during the withdrawal, the Muslims

25 entered there as the prison is situated in the settlement mostly

Page 36668

1 populated by Muslims. And then they moved onto Gorazde, of course.

2 Q. Thank you. But before the 12th of May, before a decision was

3 made to establish the army, you said it was the Crisis Staff had

4 authority before the army was established.

5 Can you tell us whether people were released after interrogation?

6 Were some released after interrogation? What happened with one group and

7 what with the other? What effect did it have?

8 A. I have to say this: Before my departure, I asked one of the

9 military officers whom I held in high regard -- in one go, there were 64

10 persons who obviously could not have been engaged by the military, Muslim

11 military. According to his words, the 64 persons were released. They

12 were Muslims. That was right after the take-over when the KP Dom was

13 taken up by the military.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 16752, please.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did you know Pilav, Hasan Pilav?

18 A. Hasan Pilav. I knew him. He was an agricultural engineer by

19 profession. I was his son's teacher in high school. He worked in the

20 public utility company for roads, and before that in the Zelen Gora

21 company. I knew also knew another physician from the Pilav family, and

22 one of their members was also a TO staff head and he was much discussed.

23 That's as far as my knowledge goes regarding that family.

24 Q. Thank you. Let's look at this. This is before the 12th of May.

25 That is to say, the 26th of April. This man was captured in combat

Page 36669

1 operations. And was released from the Foca penal and correctional

2 facility because after the informative processing he was supposed to

3 report to the police station. Was this standard treatment in terms of

4 those who were not prosecuted?

5 A. I suppose so. The 64 people, due to their age, and probably the

6 same goes for Mr. Hasan, because I see he was born in 1938 and he was not

7 a military conscript by that time, so they were treated the same way

8 probably. Interrogated first. But I don't know why criminal reports

9 were not submitted, if they could be proven. I don't know about that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3318, Your Honours.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 And now I would like to see 1D1688. This is a Defence exhibit.

16 I would like to see it briefly.

17 No, that's not that.

18 JUDGE KWON: Do you have number 1 before D?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. D1688. The document should

20 have been admitted. That's why I said that this was a Defence exhibit

21 which has been admitted.

22 Now we have it.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you comment upon this document? What is it about? Who was

25 in charge of releasing people on the 18th of July, 1992? Who was the one

Page 36670

1 who did the screening and decided on their release?

2 A. The signatory is the commander of the tactic group, Mr. --

3 Colonel Marko Kovac. It says here that Mirsad Alic is hereby being

4 released from prison.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. The check has been -- that Alic did not have any participation --

7 participation, did not take part in such dealings and is therefore

8 released into Foca:

9 "A check has been carried out by competent organs into the work

10 and impact of enemy activity in Foca."

11 Q. Thank you. How does this tally with what you know about the

12 screening procedures and decisions as to who would be prosecuted and who

13 would be released? How does this tally -- or, rather, how does this

14 conform with what you knew, not about this particular individual, but

15 about the whole phenomenon?

16 A. To be honest, I did not really keep abreast. I don't know

17 whether this happened frequently. This is a military story. This is

18 military conduct. I did not get involved in that. I don't know how

19 commonplace that was. Believe me, I can't confirm anything here.

20 Although, the Prosecutor also asked me about a case, or perhaps two, a

21 person was processed and let go. The person was released based on the

22 information that he had not taken part in any crimes; for example, the

23 arming activities, and so on and so forth.

24 Q. What is Mirsad Alic's ethnicity?

25 A. I suppose he is Muslim. You can tell, of course. You can tell

Page 36671

1 by his name.

2 Q. We know, we can tell, but the other participants do not hail from

3 the Balkans.

4 A. I apologise, but we know how to tell each other apart by our

5 first and last names. Unfortunately, the roots of that should be

6 studied. It's an entirely different story.

7 Q. On page 45, Ms. McKenna suggested that you wrote something in

8 P3340 -- or, rather, that you acted on behalf of the Crisis Staff with

9 regard to work obligation. However, in that paper, it says the

10 Executive Board and you signed your name as the president of the

11 Executive Board there.

12 Was that within the purview of the Executive Board? Did you

13 issue that order on behalf of the Crisis Staff?

14 A. Let's be clear on one thing immediately. I didn't notice that,

15 to be honest. I didn't notice whether I signed that or not. But never

16 or rarely did I sign on behalf of the Crisis Staff, but I did sign on

17 behalf of the Executive Board.

18 On the composition of the Executive Board, there was

19 Milica Miletic [phoen], who was a new member, and he was also the head of

20 the military department who was in charge of mobilisation and all the

21 other such activities. That department was in charge of those

22 activities. Therefore, although I signed the document that would have

23 been done on behalf of the collective body that was in charge of that but

24 that concerned the sentry service that was about pulling out people who

25 were not militarily able-bodied men or did not belong to the units or who

Page 36672

1 worked in the KP Dom or perhaps were not even guards there but worked on

2 other things, and they were of ill health, for example, so we wanted to

3 have them at least the sentry duty. They wanted them to be nominated on

4 the request of Mr. Karac [phoen].

5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber briefly what is war obligation;

6 who is subjected to that? And what is work obligation; who is subject to

7 that?

8 A. The so-called war obligation concerns the military component.

9 And this is established by the act of mobilisation. We are talking about

10 people who are under 65 years of ages, who are healthy, who had served in

11 the army previously and who are on the records of the military

12 department.

13 And now, the work obligation - and I subscribed to that from the

14 very beginning, from the 19th - that concerns work in those bodies in

15 companies, in the outpatients' clinic or hospital, and other such

16 institutions. All the perks that were enjoyed by the soldiers, by the

17 military component, did not pertain to people who were under work

18 obligation. For example, they had double years of seniority and things

19 like that.

20 Q. In terms of ethnic affiliation, who was subjected to work

21 obligation? Was a distinction made there at all?

22 A. When it comes to work obligation, we made sure that we also

23 called those people who were necessary. For example, a colleague of

24 mine, my school buddy Mustafa Smajovic [phoen] was supposed to be engaged

25 as well as a woman who was from a mixed marriage. And there was a woman

Page 36673

1 who was supposed to work in a company. She was Muslim -- the wife of an

2 officer. So, of course, since the requirements were reduced for

3 personnel in the municipality, I engaged perhaps only five or six clerks

4 in the municipality. And the rest, if they were able-bodied men, were

5 sent to the front line to be engaged in combat there.

6 Q. On page 36, lines 16, to -- the question about punishment, i.e.,

7 that -- those who Miroslav Stanic praised they were not punished. You

8 say that they couldn't be punished, why? Can you tell us why?

9 A. They could not be punished because they, at that time, acted in

10 concert with the regular units of the army and they represented a

11 component which meant a lot at that time.

12 The second reason is that some of them -- I didn't agree, I would

13 never agree with that assertion and that was a part of the package deal.

14 If some of them committed, and it was proven that they were involved in

15 some dodgy deals and then they were convicted. They were found guilty.

16 Q. Thank you. On page 37, within the same context, you were asked

17 why Radovan Stankovic asked to be transferred from the military into the

18 police. And bearing in mind both of these examples, can you tell us when

19 did you learn about that. What did you know about the time, about the

20 things for which they were subsequently charged?

21 A. I can -- I have to tell you honestly.

22 MS. McKENNA: Just before the --

23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. McKenna.

24 MS. McKENNA: Just before the witness answers.

25 Mr. Karadzic has stated that Mr. Mladjenovic was asked why

Page 36674

1 Radovan Stankovic asked to be transferred from the military into the

2 police. That's incorrect. That wasn't asked of Mr. Mladjenovic.

3 Perhaps it's a transcript issue.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a transcript issue.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You were asked about a list with Radovan Stankovic featuring in

7 the place. My question is this: What did you know at the time and what

8 could I know about the accusations subsequently raised against them.

9 A. I have it tell you that I paid attention only to number 1.

10 Mr. --

11 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna.

12 MS. McKENNA: I don't think it's a correct question to ask the

13 witness what Mr. Karadzic knew at the time.

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. It is I who he is

16 asking, if I understood things correctly. I'm supposed to answer; right?

17 I believe that Mr. Karadzic asked me what I knew about Stankovic.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna. Do you confirm that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the way I understood the

20 question.

21 JUDGE KWON: I think witness is correct in so understanding.

22 MS. McKENNA: If the question is simply what the witness knew

23 about Stankovic, of course, there is no problem.

24 JUDGE KWON: Oh. Just a second. But also -- I missed this part.

25 What could I know about the -- [Overlapping speakers]

Page 36675

1 MS. McKENNA: It's at line 18 of the transcript.

2 JUDGE KWON: That's not an appropriate answer -- question for the

3 witness.

4 Yes --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to answer?

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as Mr. Stankovic is

8 concerned, I was disappointed when I learnt, but I did not know anything

9 about that during the proposition phase, the suggestion phase. I didn't

10 participate in that. I knew him as my fellow citizen, as a lad. He was

11 rather robust and a nice fellow. I didn't know that he was engaged in

12 those activities that he was convicted for.

13 How did he end up on the list for the special police? Somebody

14 had to serve that for approval to the ministry or to some other

15 structure - I don't know which. I suppose it would be the ministry - for

16 his presence to be approved. Obviously with hindsight I would certainly

17 never have approved that. I'm sure that Karadzic would not either, or

18 the ministry, or the minister himself. Nobody would have approved such

19 appointment. But that's with hindsight, of course.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you. On line [as interpreted] 5 of today's transcript, you

22 said that the mandate of the Territorial Defence commander expired in

23 1998. I believe that this should be correct. When did his mandate

24 expire?

25 A. I may have misspoken. It was on the 6th of May, 1898.

Page 36676

1 Q. Could you please look at the transcript. Look at what is on the

2 screen. Look at the screen. It's the nineteenth century?

3 A. No, no, 1989 [Realtime transcript read in error "1998"].

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. I apologise. I didn't mean to -- therefore -- one gets tired and

6 attention wanders.

7 Q. Again this was misrecorded. You said "1989," right?

8 A. On the 6th of May, 1989. It is my religious holiday.

9 But he remained the TO commander until the very -- very end. It

10 was a body which comprised both Serbs and Muslims until the end of the

11 war. At the same time, did he -- he discharge you as the president of

12 the Crisis Staff, they told us that painstakingly, and some other persons

13 whom we only guessed about.

14 Q. Just as Ms. McKenna asked you, could you please provide the

15 shortest answers possible.

16 In -- in P6265, there is a reference to mopping up of Foca but

17 that was not completed. What does that term mean in military terms? Who

18 is Foca mopping up --

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, the term "mopping up"

20 was used so it may be construed differently.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Mopping up" is a military term.

22 It's sanitation of the area. For example, you can sanitise the area from

23 mines from and explosives, so this is the term that should be used,

24 "sanitisation."

25 I apologise, what else did you ask me?

Page 36677

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Does that include removing civilians from the area?

3 A. When it comes to the movement of civilians, I have to say that

4 this will require me to go to a somewhat greater length, but it will not

5 go amiss, I'm sure.

6 According to my statement and some other documents the media did

7 their bit, and in addition to sowing hatred among the two people, they

8 also saw -- sowed fear, and the ground was very fertile because in the

9 two world wars, the First World War and the Second World War, the Muslims

10 and the Serbs also suffered trauma and remained --

11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I think we heard enough. I don't

12 think we heard the word "mopping up" in Exhibit P6265.

13 I rarely do intervene, but how much more do you need for your

14 conclusion? Today we need to rise exactly at 2.45, and bear that in

15 mind.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If our lunch break is at customary

17 time, at half past 12.00, I will finish before the break --

18 JUDGE KWON: I'm referring to the next witness, whether we can

19 finish him by the end of today.

20 MR. ROBINSON: I think we if we start at the beginning of the

21 next session since you have an allotted one hour for cross-examination,

22 we can finish him, but it will be close.

23 JUDGE KWON: That's why I'm asking whether he can conclude as

24 soon as possible.

25 Yes, let's continue.

Page 36678

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Excellencies, in this document, P6265, in the English

3 translation, this word "ciscenje" was translated as "mopping up."

4 JUDGE KWON: Is P6265 not the interview of Ostojic? Where he

5 said Foca was run by the Crisis Staff. I think the saw the mopping up in

6 the P3544 where the Zaga detachments were referred to, but I may have

7 been mistaken. But --

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are right. You are probably

9 right. I apologise.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, in the questions she put to you, Ms. McKenna

12 repeated this suggestion of taking over power. Can you tell us who was

13 in power in Foca? Before the war, during these events, and during the

14 war.

15 A. Before the war, at the multi-party elections --

16 Q. Please just keep it short, if possible.

17 A. Muslims and Serbs. Possibly there might have been some

18 Montenegrins or perhaps Croats. Montenegrins were not a constituent

19 people but personnel solutions like that could be found.

20 Q. In line 15 - thank you - you said that you filled the positions

21 that had previously been held by the Muslims in the Executive Board. The

22 Muslim side, did they have, in accordance with the agreement reached, the

23 right to have their own municipality and their own Executive Board?

24 A. They could have, had agreement been reached, of course, as they

25 have now. Indeed, things have changed now because there are different

Page 36679

1 institutions and a president of the municipality. However, the executive

2 branch remained the same, the departments, et cetera.

3 Q. Thank you. Help us with this: On the 8th or 9th, or any time in

4 April, did you take over power in Foca and if so from whom?

5 A. No way. Civilian authorities, indeed, we met on the 15th, when

6 we appointed some other persons as acting officer holders who were

7 supposed to keep an eye on property of companies so that the police could

8 secure peace throughout the town itself and possibly in the villages too.

9 So, on the 19th of April, I came to the municipality with my

10 co-workers, this was a small number of people, and they were immediately

11 involved in work obligation.

12 Q. You mentioned in line 19 your co-workers, Edhim [phoen] and

13 others. Can you tell the Chamber what their ethnic background is?

14 A. Three of them were ethnic Muslims: Aganovic,

15 Edhim Varajic [phoen], and --

16 Q. Lojo?

17 A. No, no, Taib Lojo was present in the municipality. So Aganovic,

18 and Senad, I think I have forgotten the name, who was head of finance.

19 And on the other side there were three Lakovic, Bodiro [phoen],

20 Gavojislav [phoen] and I as the president. Taib Lojo was president of

21 the municipality.

22 Q. [Microphone not activated]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Mr. Karadzic's microphone

24 is off.

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, microphone.

Page 36680

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear now.

2 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. On page 13, and more frequently in that segment, on that topic,

5 it was persistently suggested that the municipality, the Serb

6 municipality of Foca, was established on the basis of some instruction

7 that had arrived from me. And on page 14, you said that this was a

8 recommendation. D1183 is the document that I'd like us to take a look at

9 now. I'd like to ask you whether that is what you meant. So it's a

10 Defence document, 1183.

11 MS. McKENNA: Just that -- excuse me, before --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.

13 MS. McKENNA: Before we show the witness the document,

14 Mr. Karadzic might want to lay a foundation. Otherwise, he will be

15 leading with the document.

16 JUDGE KWON: He was asking whether this is the document he

17 referred to.

18 Is it leading?

19 We'll allow the question.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, please, take a look at what is says here:

22 "Recommendation, 15th of January, 1992."

23 And that's the Official Gazette. And look at the date, please.

24 And who sent this recommendation on the establishment of assemblies of

25 municipalities of the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 36681

1 Could we please zoom in on this.

2 A. I can see that. It was signed. This recommendation was signed

3 by the president of the Assembly of the Serb people in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, master of sciences. Yes, you

5 can see it now.

6 Q. Thank you. When was this session of the assembly held?

7 A. 11th of December, 1991, in Sarajevo.

8 Q. Thank you. Was it suggested to you that this recommendation was

9 based on some meeting that was held on the 19th of December?

10 A. Well, I cannot say with any certainty before I look at the

11 document. But, quite certainly, on the basis of this recommendation, on

12 the 25th of December, 1991, we established -- well, to play it safe, not

13 to be unprepared, if there is this disaster of conflict. On the

14 15th of March, we held a joint session, in 1992, and I remember that we

15 stopped halfway, and we did not meet again, all of us together.

16 Q. Tell us precisely which recommendation you followed, the

17 recommendation I sent or the one that you see before you?

18 A. Momcilo Krajisnik's recommendation. He was president of the

19 assembly, so it is analogous that the president of the assembly can make

20 a recommendation to the president of the assembly --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the name.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who was elected, proposed,

23 25th of December 1991.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 A. The Executive Board went on working together with the Muslims

Page 36682

1 until the 8th of April, 1992.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

4 It's ... I will read out your answer as reflected in the

5 transcript, and please correct me or supplement what is missing:

6 "Momcilo Krajisnik's recommendation."

7 It is answer to the question from Mr. Karadzic:

8 "Tell us precisely which recommendation you followed ..."

9 "Momcilo Krajisnik's recommendation. He was the president of the

10 assembly so it is," somebody, "that the president of the assembly can

11 make a recommendation to the president of the assembly."

12 So that part is not clear. Could you repeat that

13 Mr. Mladjenovic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to tell you that in this

15 last part -- oh, yes, I see, this is zoomed in, this recommendation. I

16 really haven't read it but I know the essence, because action was taken

17 on the basis of his recommendation that at the level of municipality --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot see where the

19 witness is reading from. Very fast.

20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladjenovic, did you hear my question?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding was that this is a

22 recommendation that we received from the president of the assembly of the

23 Serb People in BH, Momcilo Krajisnik. The 11th of December, 1991.

24 Whether there were any other ones, I really don't know. It is quite

25 possible, but I don't know.

Page 36683

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

3 Q. I think that His Excellency Kwon asked you what the connections

4 were between the Assembly of the Republic and the Assembly of the

5 municipality. Can you tell us who was in charge of the Assembly from

6 central level and who was in charge of the Executive Board from central

7 level?

8 A. If we look at this from the point of view of substance, the

9 Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in charge of passing

10 laws, resolutions, and such enactments. And at lower level, that is to

11 say, at levels of municipalities, these laws are brought down to the

12 level, if I can put that way, of decisions, conclusions, and so on, and

13 these are the usual type of enactments at this lower level, lower than

14 the republican assembly.

15 Q. So the republican parliament to municipal parliament --

16 A. The Executive Board prepares these decisions or resolutions for

17 the assembly of the local parliament, the local assembly. Adjusts them,

18 prepares them.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P3333; could we have a look at that

21 now, please. Uh-huh, yes.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you tell us, can you take a look, the Official Gazette of the

24 Serb municipality of Foca, you passed this decision on the establishment

25 of the municipality. Or, actually, the Assembly of the Serb

Page 36684

1 municipality. Article 4 reads as follows:

2 "Members of the assembly of the Serb People of the Municipality

3 of Foca will continue working and all working bodies," et cetera

4 et cetera?

5 Could you tell me what the difference is between the

6 establishment of a municipality and the Assembly of the Serb People in a

7 territorial sense?

8 A. The assembly is an organ that is elected according to inertia,

9 when Serb MPs were outvoted in the People's Assembly of BH and then, just

10 in case so as not to be taken aback, the Assembly of the Serb People was

11 established, and it included assemblymen who were elected at the

12 elections, mostly from the SDS and Durakovic's Communists, two or three,

13 I think, then Ante Markovic's reformists. These were the structures that

14 comprised this assembly.

15 Q. Thank you. Could you just explain the substance of Article 5?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have the next page

17 in English now.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Assembly of the Serb People in

19 the municipality of Foca recognises the validity of documents issued by

20 the Assembly of the Municipality of Foca, unless they run counter to the

21 interests of the Serb people."

22 That is what Article 5 says.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you remember that that was written in the recommendation as

25 well, the one that we had in the previous document? The same wording was

Page 36685

1 there as well?

2 A. Possibly. I didn't really pay attention.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the text

4 that Mr. Karadzic is reading.

5 JUDGE KWON: Just -- what are you reading from?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The previous document, the

7 recommendation.

8 I would like to indicate that Article 5 reflects the first

9 paragraph of the recommendation and its essence.

10 Actually, I can deal with that in my final submissions too.

11 Is it break time now, Excellency?

12 JUDGE KWON: We can continue, if necessary. I'd like you to

13 conclude your re-examination. Then we'll have a break.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to show something from the

15 video so I'll need at least 15 minutes.

16 JUDGE KWON: Oh. Then we'll have a break.

17 We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at quarter past

18 1.00.

19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 1.19 p.m.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Can we look at 65 ter 11021.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You were shown the minutes or, actually, the transcript, and we

Page 36686

1 could hear you speak at the SDS meeting of the 14th of February. I

2 wanted to ask you - well, can we have page 9, please - so that can you

3 explain to us what you had in mind when you said that. Page 9. Can we

4 zoom in, please. I will read it out:

5 "Secondly, as regards the other questions that need to be defined

6 and ultimately make the Serbian municipality functional, I don't think it

7 was discussed here."

8 What did you mean when you said ultimately there may be a

9 necessity to make the Serbian municipality into operation?

10 A. I don't know what the context was.

11 Q. When was it established; and when did it become operational?

12 A. It was established on the 25th of December, 1991, and it became

13 operational, I think, officially, it started working after the

14 dissolution by the commissioner. I think it was in September that it

15 began working in full capacity.

16 Q. 1992?

17 A. Yes. Because there was a dissolvement, then for a while we did

18 not meet, and all of the work had to be done by the Executive Board.

19 Q. Further below, you complain that in terms of the TO and the

20 staffing, there seems to be something wrong. I wanted to read out the

21 MUP part. Is the identical situation with the MUP. The regional centre

22 of Gorazde, the place which belonged to the state security and the SDS

23 almost saw a Muslim being promoted and appointed. Please, people, who is

24 dealing with this and what is being done?

25 Can you tell us what this is about and what does it have to do

Page 36687

1 with the establishment of Serb institutions?

2 A. Those persistent avoidance to implement the agreements that were

3 signed, and it was avoided by relevant Muslim representatives to honour

4 their agreement with the Serbian side. The magical Territorial Defence

5 Staff, existed practically up until the war, and at its helm was someone

6 whose term of office was expired. It was done also in the centre for

7 state security and some other positions that had been agreed upon and

8 signed. Unfortunately, that is why I expressed my concern, asking what

9 was it that you people were doing there, and I had in mind certain

10 officials who were higher up the hierarchy.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this page,

13 although partially it has been admitted. In the English language, this

14 is not the correct one, and the Defence will shortly inform you of the

15 appropriate page. It is page 9 in the Serbian.

16 MS. McKENNA: I think it's page 13 in the English, if that

17 assists.

18 JUDGE KWON: Do you know what the previous exhibit number is?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6264, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE KWON: Shall we add this part to the exhibit? Shall we do

21 that?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll add this page.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Can we next have 65 ter 40609. That was the interview we partly

Page 36688

1 heard.

2 Can we also have the transcript? It is -- it is 40609, and the

3 other one is [In English] D00007261A, [Interpretation] the recording.

4 Can we have page 2 of the transcript on the display for the

5 participants? Can we play from 7 minutes and 50 seconds to 8 minutes and

6 42 seconds.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have that entire

8 transcript. It will be impossible to interpret.

9 JUDGE KWON: I note it. I take it you didn't circulate the

10 translate to the interpreters.

11 MR. ROBINSON: I'm told that we did, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE KWON: I heard they don't have it.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Can we please have an exact reference.

14 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell us where it is again?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2, the bottom. "VO, Foca is

16 one of the ..."

17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's try.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 7 minutes 50 to 8 minutes 42. Can

19 we hear it, please.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Foca is one of the points in the

22 territory of former Bosnia-Herzegovina with terrible conflicts between

23 Serb Orthodox Christian and Muslim population broke out for the simple

24 reason that Muslims had envisaged Foca to be a European Islamic cultural

25 centre, and in town the Serb population were the majority and because, on

Page 36689

1 April the 8th, last year, a group of Mujahedin and local Muslims in Foca

2 wanted to kill respectful Serbs in this town. That is how the war

3 started on the religious basis in Foca."

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. The words of the late Mr. Ostojic, how true are they, in your

6 view?

7 A. As regards the month of April and the establishment of units, I

8 can confirm that, I can confirm that there -- as regards the presence of

9 the Mujahedin, in that context and in that period, I did not pay much

10 attention to it, although I did have certain knowledge. I was threatened

11 in 1991, and I was on a list. Now whether those were the Mujahedin or

12 some other radical currents in their policy, that's something I don't

13 know. But I did mention the flyers distributed by Mr. Sabanovic at the

14 rally in Foca in 1992 in terms of how Serbs were to be treated. It is

15 quite an ugly document, unfortunately, and I have it with me.

16 Q. I'll ask you about that. In other words there were lists of

17 prominent Serbs to be liquidated?

18 A. Yes. I was one of them. Perhaps the first one on the list.

19 There were others too. It probably is somewhere in the documents. I

20 didn't pay much attention to it, because, well, what could I do?

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we next hearing something from

23 page 3. It is the second paragraph from the top, which is 9 minutes

24 6 seconds to 9 minutes 45 seconds.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 36690

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I claim with full responsibility

2 that civilian population in Foca, both Serb and Muslim, remained intact.

3 And that in fact the first clashes were between the armed groups, the

4 Mujahedin and local Muslims, who wanted to conquer the town and turn it

5 into a prison, similar to Gorazde. But the Serb population resisted and

6 liquidated those armed groups and made it possible for the Muslim

7 civilians to withdraw in the direction of Gorazde and Sarajevo."

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Is it correct that Foca, as a town, had a majority Serb

11 population?

12 A. As per the 1991 census, well, I have to say that it was never

13 verified by the People's Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but it is an

14 application even nowadays. Since the town is on both sides of the

15 Cehotina and the Drina, in any case the population was predominantly

16 Serb.

17 Q. Is it true what Mr. Ostojic says that they attacked Foca trying

18 to seize control?

19 A. There was indeed an attack on Foca executed by the Muslim forces

20 from Sukovac and that other hill Siriste [phoen]. They used mortars, as

21 far as I know, and the launcher that produced terrifying sound that

22 probably scared both Muslims and Serbs. They were targeting our Crisis

23 Staff, which was in the direction of the church.

24 Q. I just wanted to confirm whether it was true what is stated.

25 Now as for what is said about the civilians, that both Serb and

Page 36691

1 Muslim civilians remained intact in the first clashes of the armed

2 groups.

3 A. Yes. In the course of those first few day, definitely so.

4 I have to say that around the 10th or so, perhaps later, a Muslim

5 soldier was killed, three Serb soldiers were killed, and a KP Dom inmate

6 who was standing by obviously.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Who was a bystander.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is why we established a

9 commission, comprising Dr. Zijo Ajanovic --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the names. We

11 didn't catch them.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladjenovic, could you repeat your answer

13 from -- after you said, "... three Serb soldiers were killed ..."

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two in Aladza. If there is any

15 need, I can comment on it further. I attended the funeral because they

16 could not be buried in the town. They were buried in a nearby village.

17 On behalf of the Crisis Staff, I was tasked with going there.

18 There was also a KP Dom inmate. The story was that he was

19 supposed to throw a hand-grenade on our soldiers, but it exploded in his

20 hand.

21 There was another soldier who was killed on a nearby hill where

22 the main clash between the Serb and Muslim side occurred. It was at the

23 very beginning, on the 8th and the 9th of April, 1992.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Let's be brief. When you say a joint commission, you mentioned

Page 36692

1 some names. Please always tell us what you mean when you say a joint

2 commission, in terms of ethnicity. And also when you say the names,

3 could you please specify their ethnicity.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note the witness needs to

5 re-start his answer.

6 JUDGE KWON: You started answering the question while we are

7 hearing the interpretation of Mr. Karadzic's question.

8 So could you put a pause. And please start over again.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apologies.

10 As regards the commission, when I say a joint or a mixed

11 commission, it comprised the following physicians: Dr. Zijo Ajanovic,

12 neuropsychiatrist; Cedo Skipina, judge; and Dr. Maric Junior, Radmilo,

13 that is. They worked for a few days, perhaps seven or eight days. They

14 carried out an on-site investigation at the foot of Celovina hill and in

15 Djedjevo village where the clashes were. I think there were 14

16 casualties, and their report confirmed that they were killed in a clash.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Zijo Ajanovic, what is his ethnicity?

19 A. Muslim. I believe I said so.

20 Q. It was not recorded because of the overlap.

21 In the excerpt, late Mr. Ostojic says that it was made possible

22 for the Muslim civilians to withdraw to Gorazde and Sarajevo.

23 Were these civilians driven away, driven out, or were they

24 enabled to leave?

25 A. First of all, no one drove them away. There was no opportunity

Page 36693

1 to do so. They were withdrawing when the separation line was near the

2 health centre. I kindly ask you for your patience.

3 What did the media do? Mr. Semsko Tusakovic [phoen],

4 Radio Sarajevo journalist, announced the arrival of Serbo Chetniks from

5 Serbia and Montenegro. He said there were 4- or 5.000 of them and it

6 scared everyone, Serbs and Muslims. He even used that figure when at

7 Ustikolina there were Muslim units present. That is why the population

8 was afraid, having the experience of the previous wars, and they withdrew

9 in the evening and during the night. Donje Polje and most of the centre

10 of town withdrew in that way, in their vehicles, and on foot.

11 The other part withdrew to Pluzine. It included Serbs and

12 Montenegrins and Muslims. So the figure was around 2300 not all at once,

13 but in different periods. They went to their friends because they

14 expected the conflict to last for a short time only and that a solution

15 would be found.

16 It is also interesting to note that when the Muslims turned to

17 the SUP, requesting -- and to the civilian authorities, requesting that

18 they be allowed to leave, they -- we had to consult the military

19 structures because pressure was brought to bear on me, in particular,

20 when it was said that we are waging war whether it is Radojica and his

21 civilian structures are bussing them here and there. They expressed

22 their wish to the MUP to leave collectively and it was probably for

23 safety reasons that they opted for that, saying that they wanted to go to

24 Serbia, Montenegro, and Macedonia. No one asked to go to Gorazde or

25 Sarajevo, and that can be checked.

Page 36694

1 Q. Thank you. Tell us briefly what is the faith and ethnicity of

2 their friends in Pluzine where some 2300 Muslims from Foca took shelter?

3 A. Well, it wasn't only the Muslims. The first wave of population

4 withdrawal included Muslims, Serbs, and Montenegrins. Well, for

5 Montenegrins, it may have seemed natural because they were, they were the

6 so-called Pivljani, were employed in Foca working in the town hospital

7 and elsewhere.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Karadzic kindly

9 repeat his answer [sic].

10 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I am grateful to you for being so extensive, but I'd just like

13 you to tell us what the religion was of their friends in Pluzine where

14 they sought shelter?

15 A. Orthodox.

16 Q. Thank you. I would like to remind the participants -- actually,

17 let me just ask this.

18 Did you have a situation in which you prevented people from

19 leaving and then did you lift that ban? Do you remember that?

20 A. I think that that happened too. I -- actually, in my building,

21 on the floor where I lived, in different apartments, of course, there

22 were some that were owned by Muslims. There were over 30 people staying

23 there. Serbs gave me trouble too. They were saying the president is

24 protecting them, and so on and so forth, when the situation became

25 unbearable. Actually, I also had a friend from school there and I

Page 36695

1 advised her that they should go somewhere more peaceful so they could

2 survive. And to tell you the truth, they grabbed the chance. They went

3 to the MUP. They announced their departure, and they were transported by

4 bus to destinations in Serbia, Macedonia and Montenegro, Skopje.

5 Q. Thank you. The lady who went to school with you, what was her

6 ethnic background?

7 A. She was a Muslim. She had two children. She lived one floor

8 above me. Otherwise she worked at the court there.

9 Q. P2642. That's what I'm going to read out to you, or, rather,

10 just one sentence, "The decision is from the 18th of June, 1992" --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is too fast to follow

12 what is being read out.

13 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your question.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I identified the document. It is a

15 document of the War Commissioner of the Serb municipality. It's sent to

16 the operative staff and the Executive Board of the Serb municipality of

17 Foca. The third paragraph says --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the

19 document.

20 JUDGE KWON: Please read slow. Very slow. Slowly when the

21 interpreters do not have the documents.

22 Shall we switch to the e-court.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P -- it's a Prosecution Exhibit.

24 P2642.

25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 36696

1 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, Mr. Karadzic, do you like to

2 tender or add the clip and transcript of Ostojic to the previous exhibit?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The previous one was a Prosecution

4 document. All right. But finally I do have a few more excerpts. We'll

5 go back to that?

6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Now I don't want to us read out all of this but please look at

9 the beginning of the third paragraph, the current civilian and military

10 authorities of the Serb municipality of Foca have so far prohibited both

11 Serbs and Muslims from leaving the territory of Foca.

12 And then the War Commission suggests the following:

13 "The civilian and military authorities shall allow all loyal

14 citizens who have no violated laws to leave," and so on. And paragraph 3

15 midway it says, "to compile lists with all necessary data of those loyal

16 citizen who have expressed a wish to leave, who are to be informed of

17 this decision and who are to give a short signed explanation of their

18 reasons for leaving the municipality."

19 And now can we have the next page in Serbian.

20 This is number 5:

21 "The Executive Board should compile a list of the property that

22 remained in Foca, meaning the property that could not be transported

23 under current conditions."

24 So can you tell us whether people were being chased away or

25 whether you had actually prohibited them from leaving at that point in

Page 36697

1 time?

2 A. It was prohibited both for Serbs and Muslims. Serbs, even

3 military conscripts, intended to leave, to take their families away, and

4 this pertained to Serbs, and this could have been considered military

5 desertion because they were military conscripts.

6 Of course, I have another statement too that was signed by the

7 president of the municipal assembly to return to the situation the

8 5th of April, 1992. And it says --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is being read out too

10 fast.

11 JUDGE KWON: Could you concentrate on answering the question. If

12 necessary, Mr. Karadzic will ask further questions.

13 And if you are reading a document, please read very slowly for

14 the benefit of interpreters.

15 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask whether there

17 was a ban and whether the Executive Board, as Article 5 says, registered

18 property and tried to protect the property that they could not transport

19 at that point in time.

20 A. The civilian authorities, that is to say the Executive Board,

21 tried, and I mean -- well, they did this paperwork, stating that entry

22 was prohibited into all apartments and houses and this was supposed to be

23 ensured by the civilian police and the military. I already said that at

24 first the results were good, but, later, on -- how do I put this? This,

25 in other words, well, it -- they had to rely on neighbours and other

Page 36698

1 people to take care of their houses. If they decided to leave, then a

2 Serb would take over -- no, not take over. To have the keys and, in that

3 way, a neighbour would take care of his neighbour's apartment or house.

4 This would have to be a longer story. But I hope that you see what the

5 essence is.

6 Q. Thank you. That will do.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the interview,

8 07261/2 and the transcript is 40609. Number 3 -- no, it's on the fourth

9 page. 13 minutes, 29 seconds, up to 14:01. In the transcript, it is

10 page 4. 40609 is the 65 ter number of the transcript. And the video ...

11 oh, we don't have to listen to it. All right. Let us look at the

12 transcript. It's the third paragraph. I'm going to read it out now in

13 the English language. Oh, we are going to play it after all, yes. 13:29

14 to 14:01 and the transcript can be followed on page 4.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I do not have that information. I

17 think that did not happen, and from the very beginning of the war and

18 conflict in Foca and the International Red Cross and UNPROFOR were there.

19 And, as far as I know, all detained Muslims in the Foca prison have been

20 exchanged in the meantime and these are extremists who had started the

21 armed struggle against the Serb people in the territory of Foca."

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. What can you say with regard to the accuracy of this statement of

24 Ostojic's, in the briefest possible terms?

25 A. Well, as far as this, that they were exchanged, they were every

Page 36699

1 now and then. Not all of them. I wouldn't agree with that. And what

2 would happen was that people would go for an exchange and then I remember

3 that they were even brought to Kula and then they waited for a few months

4 to be exchanged. I remember Dr. Selimovic, Dr. Karovic, and others and

5 their turn came only -- well, I don't know whether they had not reached

6 agreement with the Muslim side. Believe me, I don't know. But -- but I

7 do know that they went out for an exchange as did many others, but, on

8 the whole, I'm not sure that I would agree with the statement.

9 So, in part, yes. But in its entirety, no.

10 Q. Thank you. Did the Red Cross have access? Did UNPROFOR have

11 access to Foca?

12 A. The International Red Cross did. I think that UNPROFOR did too.

13 Believe me -- well, the International Red Cross, yes, for sure.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. A list had been compiled. As for the numbers, I didn't go into

16 that. I didn't have the opportunity of looking at these lists. It would

17 be a good thing to consult the International Red Cross, and, of course,

18 institutions that entered the KP Dom.

19 Q. Thank you. Can we now hear the next answer. That is also on

20 page 4 from 14:17 to 14:45.

21 [Video-clip played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "However, a certain practice was

23 discovered both with the Muslim and Croatian authorities which is this:

24 When they cannot explain a large number of casualties an armed clashes

25 with the Serbs, then they justify it by telling families and the

Page 36700

1 international community that they had perished in Serb prisons. By the

2 way, I myself have never been in the Foca prison."

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Were there manipulations in your experience that sometimes people

5 would be reported as civilians and sometimes as combatants and --

6 A. Yes, that was the practice, for sure. And not only at this

7 location, but also in other places. Many things were hyperbolised.

8 These are Muslims who were well known. Why they did that, I don't know,

9 maybe to justify their objectives. Quite possible.

10 Q. Thank you. On page 5 in the transcript, can we play 15:45 to

11 16:09. I skipped some. So from 15:46 to 16:09, so the transcript page

12 is 5 from the top of the page.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Let those facts be established as

15 well. If something like that happened, I have nothing against it. I'm

16 not defending individual crimes, and I am not defending anything that

17 could have happened out of control of both state authorities and the

18 regular army because the dirtiest of all wars is being waged in the

19 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is a religious war."

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Did the authorities contribute to

21 the commission of crimes? Did they encourage them or did they hide them

22 in Foca?

23 A. Absolutely not. From the level of the republican authorities or

24 the local level, absolutely the situation was not being exacerbated and,

25 of course, it was not being suggested to anyone that they should commit

Page 36701

1 crimes. I absolutely assert that. Except for exceptions. Of course,

2 there were exceptions. But at the level of the town, it's a lot if one

3 person falls victim. Let me tell you that straight away. I would agree

4 with that. But there wasn't any major victimisation.

5 Q. What did you say about the republican level? It wasn't recorded.

6 A. Such orders did not arrive from republican level either. I know

7 that in Foca 551 civilian --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the numbers

9 slowly and the references.

10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you -- could you repeat your

11 answer again. And very slowly.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So, as far as the Serb side is

13 concerned, in the conflict, throughout the war, 551 soldiers lost their

14 lives, 95 civilians -- so the total was 646. I would like the Muslim

15 side to present sincerely and reliably the losses. The loss of a single

16 life is a loss for all, for humankind, and that is how I view that.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Thank you.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 25:36 to 36 [as interpreted]

20 transcript page 7. So could we have that played, please.

21 [Video-clip played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot find the

23 reference on this page.

24 JUDGE KWON: Should we play this part again. Could you give the

25 reference to the interpreters.

Page 36702

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The third paragraph on page 7. And

2 then it's the middle of the third paragraph.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Accepting this story. In every

5 war, there are crimes that are really crimes, and neither state authority

6 nor its institutions are behind it, and they should be looked into and

7 sanctioned. But to build an attitude towards one people on an account of

8 individual cases is really immoral and impermissible."

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. This presented position of Mr. Ostojic's, how does that tally

11 with your own experience in terms of the position of state organs and

12 local organs in respect of crimes?

13 A. Quite certainly, I share the position of the late Mr. Ostojic.

14 Namely, that all of those who committed crimes, this is a personal act,

15 and they should be held responsible for the judiciary organs

16 unequivocally, regardless of nations or nationality involved.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to

19 tender all the transcripts of what we have played. You can add a D or a

20 P, whichever you wish.

21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna.

22 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, given the extensive Defence reliance

23 on this, I suggest tendering the transcript in its entirety. It will

24 make the record clearer.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it in its entirety. So that -- so

Page 36703

1 Exhibit P -- what is --

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6265, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yeah, will be.

4 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 40609.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You said earlier today that on the 8th, you reached an agreement

9 with the leadership of the Muslim community and that, at the same time,

10 or immediately thereafter, fire was opened, an attack was carried out; is

11 that correct?

12 A. It is correct. That's what I said. While I was in the

13 municipality with my associates, because we had agreed to meet there and

14 to make another effort towards co-ordinating our positions, we spoke on

15 the telephone, and very simply, fire was opened from the Muslim side.

16 There was a response from the Serb side. On our way back, or, rather,

17 when decided to say our good byes and I suppose that everybody went to

18 their own Crisis Staff. I suppose they did. I did. I went with

19 Mr. Markovic.

20 The town was empty. The main streets were absolutely empty. The

21 town was a ghost town. There was nobody.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] can we look at 65 ter 1501. On the

23 8th of April, 1992, Mr. Ostojic gave an interview on Radio Belgrade.

24 1501. In Serbian, we are looking at the second paragraph.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 36704

1 Q. And it says:

2 "Just as inter-party talks began between representatives of the

3 Serbian and Muslim peoples on delineating territory and separating organs

4 of authority, in the Serbian territorials in a peaceful and democratic

5 way a unit of the Muslim people attacked positions of the Serbian

6 territories not far from Foca."

7 Is this correct?

8 A. Yes. From the territory of Sukovac and that is a -- not far from

9 the municipality, perhaps some 100 metres as the crow flies.

10 Q. And now the first sentence:

11 "On behalf of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian people in the Foca

12 commune, we are calling on citizens of all nationalities in Foca to

13 remain calm because" -- and so on and so forth.

14 Was any such appeal sent out to people?

15 A. Yes. From me personally and from Mr. Lojo Taib, the president of

16 the municipality, it aired on the radio. It was a four-sentence long

17 communique. If you wish I can read it.

18 Q. Thank you. Taib Lojo is what by ethnicity?

19 A. He was a Muslim. He was at the Muslim representative of the

20 municipality.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted.

23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna.

24 MS. McKENNA: No objection, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.

Page 36705

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3319, Your Honours.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't want to call up the next

3 document, but similar things are repeated in P3338 issued on the 14th of

4 April. Also Mr. Ostojic sent a report to Radio Belgrade. We don't have

5 the time to call this up.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, a statement was read to you by a witness who

8 testified under pseudonym about rallies and what was said at those

9 rallies. First of all, tell us this: Were those rallies accessible to

10 the media and to journalists?

11 A. Yes, both. Journalists had access to both if you have in mind

12 the Serbian ones in 1990 and 1991. But the same is true of the Muslim

13 rallies. They were widely covered by the media. I have that videotape,

14 the promotion of the Serbian Democratic Party. Unfortunately, I could

15 not get hold of the Muslim audio recording because I had to check some of

16 the sentences. I did not want to mislead the Trial Chamber, the

17 Prosecution and the Defence -- and give them something that is not

18 correct.

19 In any case, everything was recorded by camera and by tape

20 recorder.

21 Q. Thank you. When it comes to the media, was the allegedly drastic

22 sentence academician Maksimovic highlighted in the media? Was any other

23 war mongering, chauvinist statement conveyed from those rallies?

24 A. Let me tell you this: As far as I can remember, if anything like

25 that was uttered, it could have been in the shape of a warning based on

Page 36706

1 various experiences, both of the Muslim and the Serbian peoples from the

2 previous wars. I believe that Mr. Kilibarda uttered some harsher words.

3 Mr. Muhamed Cengic, who was a Muslim, was very moderate in his

4 appearance. So I really did not see anything. Mr. Karadzic is

5 absolutely, in favour of living together in the former Yugoslavia. And

6 other speakers who were more or less of a minor importance at that first

7 rally. Before the elections after the SDS was set up in 1990.

8 And then the tripartite rally in 1991 also saw appearances by

9 speakers who presented very similar things. At the SDA rally, when the

10 SDA was set up in 1992 I did not attend that for personal reasons.

11 Q. That witness who said that academician Maksimovic uttered those

12 drastic words, was he telling the truth?

13 A. I don't know who you are talking about, but I can assume that he

14 was not telling the truth. Or at least not the whole truth. Everything

15 can be spined in different ways. But he is a bit short-tempered in real

16 life but he did not embark on that adventure. I'm sure.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if Mr. Muhamed Cengic, who was the

18 vice-president of the SDA, and I and our teams paid homage to the victims

19 of the Second World War? Did we do that in 1992 during the setting up of

20 the SDS in Foca?

21 A. Yes, that's correct you threw flowers from the bridge of the

22 Drina across the street from the KP Dom. And also from the bridge on the

23 Drina, the young people and children threw flowers into the river. I

24 don't know which of the politicians were there. There was a lot of

25 people --

Page 36707

1 JUDGE KWON: It is impossible to catch up the speed in which both

2 of you are speaking.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Give us a short summary of what you just said. You said about

5 throwing flowers, and in addition to the children who followed us, do you

6 remember anybody else but Muhamed Filipovic and myself? We went to the

7 bridge and threw flowers to pay homage to the victims of the Second World

8 War. Do you remember who else was there?

9 A. I believe that you misspoke, because Cengic was there.

10 Muhamed Cengic and you and the children who followed you. Not Filipovic.

11 Q. I apologise, it was Cengic, yes. So how would it tally with the

12 words that were ascribed to Professor Maksimovic?

13 A. The two don't together of course.

14 Q. And my last question. Could you please tell us something about

15 the leaflet that you mentioned in the cross-examination but you were not

16 allowed to show it to the Trial Chamber.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the usher please display it on

18 the ELMO.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that you have it at your

20 disposal. The Defence has it, I'm sure.

21 This is it. Only this part.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Whose the person who distributed the leaflets?

25 A. At the August rally in 1990, when the SDA was promoted as a

Page 36708

1 party, that leaflet was distributed among the people and you see who the

2 promotion was dedicated to. It was Sabanovic from Visegrad who

3 participated in the destruction of the bus. Murat Sabanovic was his

4 name. He was the one who distributed it, the leaflets. Look at the

5 contents and it will be self-explanatory indeed. How shall I put it? I

6 was the consumer. Somebody would ring my bell late at night and then I

7 couldn't go back to sleep, and so on and so forth. But you can read the

8 thing for yourself and then you can see how welcome as neighbours we were

9 to them.

10 Q. Bells would be rung late. Children should be prohibited to play

11 with the Serbian children. Garbage should be left in front of the doors.

12 People should urinate in front of doors. Newspapers should not be

13 delivered.

14 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 MS. McKENNA: If I may, it is unclear to me at this stage what

17 this leaflet is. But it seems to be linked to -- and purportedly the SDA

18 rally that's outside the scope of the cross-examination. The

19 cross-examination dealt solely with the SDS rally and statements that

20 were made during it.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Would you like to respond?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness was asked. And

23 he tried to show this leaflet in responding to that question. The

24 Prosecutor didn't want him to do that. I suppose that they were waiting

25 for me to do it in my re-direct; right?

Page 36709

1 JUDGE KWON: Could you point us the relevant part of the

2 transcript?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me see if I noted that during

4 the cross-examination. Just a moment.

5 JUDGE KWON: Is it true this leaflet is related [Overlapping

6 speakers] ...

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The leaflet, on page 12, page 12 of

8 the today's transcript. A question was put to the witness. He tried to

9 say something about the leaflet, but he could not. Line 8.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We will allow the question.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic, how does this leaflet which was distributed

14 among the 100.000 people reflect on the mindset of the Serbian community

15 in Foca?

16 A. Not only this leaflet. But before bullet point 1, could you

17 please read the content of the text in this leaflet?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters in the booth cannot do sight

19 translation especially if the witness is reading very fast.

20 JUDGE KWON: It is impossible for the interpreters to follow.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will read the first

22 sentence slowly:

23 "It is clear that we can no longer live calmly with the Serbs

24 and that the crisis that we are now experiencing will not be resolved for

25 long as a single Serb remains living in our republic. That's why we have

Page 36710

1 to do everything in our power to get rid of them in the most efficient

2 and fastest way. Before we use the last argument which is weapons, we

3 will try and use some more subtle weapons or methods to remove imposters

4 from our country."

5 Mr. Mladjenovic do you know who Senad Sahinpasic, Saja, is? Was

6 he the owner of a newspaper "Vox" and what is the link between this

7 leaflet and "Vox."

8 A. We are thinking along the same line. I am sorry you didn't read

9 the next sentence where it says that we were dirty and ugly.

10 Mr. Sahinpasic was an MP in the National Assembly. I now him as my

11 fellow citizen. He is a poet. He puts together verses and is the author

12 of that infamous verse that was uttered in the National Assembly of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina when he said there is a duck swimming, there is a

14 goose swimming, and this country will be Turkey eventually. And with or

15 without that the emotions were running very high because for 413 years,

16 not minutes but years, Turkey ruled the area of Bosnia, Serbia and other

17 countries in the Balkan peninsula.

18 Q. I have --

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The name on line 23 is

21 Senad Sahinpasic, Saja. On line 25 the witness didn't say that we were

22 thinking along the same lines. He said that this leaflet and newspaper

23 "Vox" were on the same line, and said Sahinpasic was its publisher.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a newspaper that was printed

25 in order to add fuel to the hatred and to orchestrate the Sharia laws and

Page 36711

1 regulations. I'm sure that you had the examples of those and you were

2 privy to them, and I'm sure that you will know that what I'm say

3 something very honest and very fair.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On line 8, it should read "Sharia

5 law," and that has not been recorded.

6 Excellencies, I'm tendering this leaflet for admission. I would

7 like it to be marked for identification, and when we have dealt with

8 that, I will have no further questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE KWON: Shall we leave the leaflet on the ELMO? Yes.

10 Who is -- who was it that got this leaflet or flyer? Is it the

11 Defence or the witness?

12 Mr. Mladjenovic, is it you that got this flyer?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a book, which holds the gist

14 of it and quotes the text distributed by Sabanovic. I think it was in

15 circulation because it was distributed at this rally of 100.000 people

16 and they couldn't tell Serbs from Muslims, and they were distributed by

17 Sabanovic and his group. Of course, it ended up in the hands of Serbs

18 and it was very much in circulation. That is how he stirred unrest among

19 Serbs, especially where he says we've lived long with the Serbs. We have

20 become familiar with them. We have strengthened our hatred towards them

21 because they are dirty and ugly, and so on and so forth.

22 JUDGE KWON: Please concentrate on the answer. So what we are

23 seeing now is part of a book, published by a Serb.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Can I hear from you, Ms. McKenna.

Page 36712

1 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, it's -- I don't think the provenance

2 of this document is clear at all. We don't know who published it. We

3 don't know when it was published. I think the standards for

4 admissibility are clearly not met.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask you?

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. How did you get by this flyer and the book? Who published it and

9 is there an original anywhere?

10 A. I think I can say with credibility that there is the original

11 leaflet. The book was written by Velimir Djurovic. It is called "Lies,

12 Hatred, the Crime."

13 THE ACCUSED: For you, Excellencies.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And you have it in that book with

15 some other words uttered by Ivo Andric, some journalists and others.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Before having seen this in the book, were you aware that it had

18 existed before, that there was the original somewhere?

19 A. Yes. I saw it dozens of times, and I didn't need the book for

20 that. You could easily find it, and I have one even. And I'm surprised

21 I did not offer it to counsel. That is to say, to those who were

22 proofing me.

23 JUDGE KWON: We'll marked for identification until this Chamber

24 is satisfied with its provenance. And when we -- until we have the

25 English translation.