Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 36922

 1                           Wednesday, 10 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning,

 7     Mr. Skiljevic.

 8                           WITNESS:  SONIBOJE SKILJEVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, where were we?  Yes.  We were in the middle of

11     cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson.  Good morning to you, Ms. Gustafson.

12     Please continue.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson: [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Skiljevic.  I understand from your evidence so

16     far, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it is your position that there

17     were no non-Serb civilians detained in Kula prison except for the Muslim

18     civilians from the Rogatica area who were there in 1994 and into early

19     1995; is that right?

20        A.   There were some civilians, a small number of civilians.  They

21     were the ones who had fled into our territory, that was how the military

22     authorities had formulated that.  In practice they had crossed over into

23     our territory.  Some of them had just strayed and then they were kept

24     before triage so that intelligence would be gathered from them until they

25     were sent to their territory, and then the majority of cases it was the

Page 36923

 1     exchange commissions that sent them there.  They released them not to

 2     exchange them for others but just to set them free, to release them for

 3     security reasons only.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we have 65 ter 24211, please.

 6        Q.   The document that's going to come up on your screen,

 7     Mr. Skiljevic, is one of the two documents - I see you have it in front

 8     of you - that I asked you to look at while we were breaking, and I'd now

 9     like to ask you a few questions about it.  This is another of the

10     documents that the Prosecution copied at Kula prison in 2003.  And this,

11     I take it, is a notebook that records daily events at Kula prison between

12     the 3rd of January, 1993, and the 3rd of November, 1993; is that right?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   And these records would have been kept by your prison staff; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   That's right.  It was the security service that kept them.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 2 of the English and

18     page 18 in the B/C/S.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told, Ms. Gustafson, that English translation

20     has not been uploaded.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'll look into that.  It was when I had looked at

22     it before.  I'll just check.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  It's showing "denied" on my screen.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I will just try to re-release it and see if that

25     works.  It should be working now.  Well, Your Honours, it should be

Page 36924

 1     working as far as our system is concerned.  We are going to print it and

 2     try to use it on the ELMO instead.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we proceed with B/C/S.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Certainly.

 5        Q.   Mr. Skiljevic, page -- we are at page 18 of the B/C/S.  At the

 6     bottom of that page it says received at the detention facility as per

 7     military command, Mirjana Ugljesic and Fatima Bajramovic.  Now, these

 8     were two non-Serb female detainees brought in by the military

 9     authorities; right?

10             It might be easier if you just look at the screen rather than

11     trying to find the page in the hard copy.

12             As these records state, Mirjana Ugljesic and Fatima Bajramovic,

13     those were two non-Serb female detainees brought in by the military;

14     right?

15        A.   No.  Mirjana Ugljesic is of Serbian ethnicity.  She was in the

16     detention unit and proceedings were conducted with regard to her, and she

17     remained in the KP Dom later on because she was convicted.

18        Q.   Fatima Bajramovic, she was a Muslim; right?

19        A.   Yes.  In our prison, Kula, there were four convicted women of

20     Muslim ethnicity and three convicted women of Croatian ethnicity who were

21     transferred to our institution when the women's department of the KP Dom

22     in Foca was closed down.  They had all been convicted to long sentences,

23     ranging between ten and 14 years.

24        Q.   Okay.  If we could go to page -- sorry, 81 of the B/C/S.  If you

25     look at the top of the page, the top third of the page, this entry

Page 36925

 1     indicates that military police from Foca brought five Muslims for

 2     exchange:  Two older men, born in 1930 and 1937, and three teenage girls,

 3     born in 1977 and 1978.  And they were brought by the military policeman

 4     Zoran Samardzic.  Now in your statement at paragraph 43, you referred to

 5     the report -- sorry, this is an entry for 21st of March, 1993.  You

 6     referred to the duty officer report for the 21st and 22nd of March, 1993,

 7     in your statement at paragraph 43; that document is D3357.  And that

 8     document also states that five Muslims were brought from Foca for the

 9     purpose of an exchange, scheduled for the 23rd of March, 1993.  Now, the

10     two documents are referring to the same group of people, right, because

11     they both state that there are five Muslim prisoners, they both state

12     that they are from Foca, and they both state that they are being brought

13     in for exchange on this date; right?

14        A.   Persons who had been taken prisoner and were held at the Foca

15     prison were brought to our institution on several occasions.  Whether it

16     was this group that arrived then or if it was another one but I remember

17     quite well that on the 21st of March, these persons were brought, had

18     spent the night in our institution, and then the following day they were

19     taken for exchange to the airport by the exchange commission.  Sometimes

20     they were brought in larger groups, but only to be exchanged.  Some of

21     them stayed for a day, some for a longer period such as one month or

22     more.  They would stay at the KP Dom until the exchange was completely

23     arranged.

24        Q.   Okay.  Could we go into private session for a moment?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 36926

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Ms. Gustafson, the English is now available, so if

 2     you give us the page number we can follow.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, we are now at page 15 of the English.

 4                           [Private session]

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Page 36927

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22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are in open session.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Mr. Skiljevic, in your statement at paragraph 43, referencing the

Page 36928

 1     duty officer report for this same day that noted the detention of these

 2     five prisoners, you said that this shows that POWs in the Butmir KPD were

 3     exchanged for Serb captives held in Muslim camps.

 4             Now you must have known that these three teenage girls and two

 5     older men were not POWs, they were Muslim civilians who were being

 6     detained and then exchanged; right?  You must have known that.

 7        A.   No.  As the prison warden, it's not true that I must have known

 8     that.  It was not a description of my duties.  They were the ones who did

 9     it, the military security, the security organ, that is to say, and the

10     exchange commission.  They were in charge of that and they took them to

11     be exchanged.  I did not hold talks with the commission president.

12     Amor Masovic, for example, I never even met him, nor did I make lists or

13     go to meetings with SFOR and other international organisations, such as

14     the ICRC and so on, to compile lists and decide who would be exchanged

15     and who wouldn't and who was a civilian and who was a POW.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go back into private session again

18     momentarily.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

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Page 36929











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Page 36930

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22                           [Open session]

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:

24        Q.   Mr. Skiljevic, one more question on this topic before we move on,

25     you've given me very formalistic answers about jurisdiction and

Page 36931

 1     authority, but you were the prison warden at the time.  You saw these

 2     people coming and going, people like the teenage girls we just saw.

 3     I would think that any thinking human being would question this entire

 4     process of detention and exchange and whether it was about prisoners of

 5     war, as you're asserting, or whether this was just about getting Muslims

 6     and Croats out.  Didn't those questions ever cross your mind when you saw

 7     the kinds of people being detained and exchanged at your prison?

 8        A.   Yes.  I did think along those lines.  And perhaps over time

 9     I might publish a book about Kula and Kula as a prison, but as someone

10     who was head of the institution appointed on 16th of December, 1993, when

11     I took over the duties and the POW unit which had been formed earlier, it

12     wasn't formed by the Ministry of Justice, that is to say the civilian

13     authorities, but rather the Ministry of Defence.  The rules and the

14     instructions have been signed by Bogdan Subotic, general and minister of

15     defence rather the minister of justice, Momcilo Mandic or Jovo Rosic, who

16     was my superior as the minister.  So if I mentioned the example that the

17     minister personally came to visit the prison - that was Mr. Rosic - and

18     he did not want to visit, just the detainees, the civilians, and the

19     detainees, only those who were under the jurisdiction of the district

20     court, and that I as the warden needed to inform him that there were

21     others there as well, but they didn't want to discuss that at all.

22             And at our meetings of the collegium of the ministry, we would

23     inform them about the problems that we as the wardens had with various

24     categories that were brought to the KP Dom.  We had had enough even of

25     the Serbs who were being brought.  Those were the reasons why we didn't

Page 36932

 1     get involved into any analyses and we didn't look into those persons'

 2     files, we didn't use psychologists or other professional staff to work

 3     with such people because according to our plans, our authority, our

 4     jurisdiction we were not allowed to do that.  Privately I could talk with

 5     anyone if I wanted to collect some information, but not nor official

 6     purposes.

 7        Q.   Just to clarify something in your answer, you mentioned visits by

 8     the minister of justice, Mr. Rosic, and you said:

 9             "... I as the warden needed to inform him that there were others

10     there as well, but they didn't want to discuss that at all."

11             Are you stating there that you were -- you informed the minister

12     of justice of your concerns about civilians being held in the prison but

13     he didn't want to discuss that; is that correct?

14        A.   That's correct.  At meetings we also pointed out that we had

15     major problems, the problem was not that they were accommodated there but

16     how to food them and providing heating, provide health care, all sorts of

17     problems, and we had this burden.  We had to see how to do it via other

18     organs, and everybody else was saying that they were not under our

19     jurisdiction and that we wouldn't be involved.  We shouldn't release

20     them, we shouldn't make any impact on the exchange or anything along

21     those lines, but just that we should work in a decent and professional

22     manner, as in 1992, the president, Mr. Karadzic, also told us at the very

23     beginning of all these developments when he came to visit us.

24        Q.   I'd like to go back to the civilians from Rogatica for a moment.

25     In your interview with the Prosecution in 2003, you said from 1993 and on

Page 36933

 1     to 1994 civilians would come - the area around Sokolac or Rogatica, for

 2     example - as so to say humanitarian cases where it was said that they

 3     would stay for a short period of time, that only the deal about the

 4     exchange is being awaited and they would stay for a month or two waiting

 5     for the transfer.

 6             Now, that's right, isn't it?  The civilians from Rogatica were

 7     being held at Kula while the deal about their exchange was being

 8     arranged?

 9        A.   Yes.  But I must say that we didn't want to receive those

10     civilians.  We were actually tricked, the management of the KPD, because

11     the buses arrived without notice.  We did have separate facilities so

12     that these people are not mixed, do not mix with the others, but we

13     received them anyway because we felt pity for them.  And they would stay

14     for five, ten, 15 days, as long as it took for the UNHCR or the ICRC to

15     arrange everything for those people to go to Sarajevo.

16        Q.   You said five, 10 or 15 days but the document you reference in

17     your -- sir, the document you reference at paragraphs 19 and 38, which is

18     D3335, states -- is dated the 5th of September, 1994.  And it says the

19     problem, lack of funding for food, et cetera, has been particularly

20     prominent in the last three months when a number of refugees from the

21     Rogatica municipality were accommodated in the prison, mainly women and

22     underage persons.

23             So by the time you wrote the letter on the 5th of September,

24     1994, at least some of these prisoners had been there for three months;

25     right?

Page 36934

 1        A.   Well, it depends from where they had come because there were

 2     people who came from one village and most of them leave and then people

 3     from another village arrive.  It's true that I wrote a letter to ask for

 4     assistance from the government and the high commissioner's office, and

 5     I always asked for assistance in advance, to avoid a situation in which

 6     I would be unable to feed the people, and that indeed never happened.

 7     There was also a problem with electricity.  We needed candles and all

 8     sorts of stuff.

 9        Q.   I'm going to interrupt you because we are moving now away from

10     the question which was just about the time period.  And if I could ask

11     you again to try to focus your answers as much as possible on the

12     specific question.  Now, I am going to mover on to another topic.  I will

13     come back to this document on the screen later so I won't tender it at

14     the moment.

15             At paragraph 6 of your statement you said that prisoners

16     occasionally went out to work on the orders of the military.  At

17     paragraph 7 you said you did not know what kind of labour these people

18     were taken to do.  And then at paragraph 51 you said as far as I know

19     such work was generally carried out in the depth of the territories.

20     Now, your own documents, the ones that are attached to your statement

21     show that you in fact had detailed information about the kind of labour

22     these prisoners did and that it was often carried out at front line

23     positions.  So, for example, D3352 that you reference at paragraph 51 is

24     a military request to Kula prison asking for 15 prisoners who will be

25     tasked with building trenches and communication trenches in

Page 36935

 1     Donji Kotorac; that's page 6 of D3352.  Similarly, page 9, another

 2     military request, asks for 15 prisoners who will work on building

 3     trenches and communication trenches near Kuca Novakovica, and

 4     Donji Kotorac.  These requests indicate that you were basically informed

 5     exactly what kind of work these prisoners were going to do and where;

 6     right?

 7        A.   The two examples you have read out, the locality is the site of

 8     the KPD, Donji Kotorac and Kuca Novakovica.  It was the -- the works were

 9     about the roads.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his previous

11     sentence.

12             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, sir --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Skiljevic, could you repeat your answer.

15     Interpreters couldn't hear you.  If you could kindly repeat it.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two letters, Donji Kotorac

17     and Novakovici, they border on our land, the Privrednik unit.  Behind

18     that, there is the Sarajevo airport.  Of course, I'm always well

19     acquainted with this locality.  But other places, for example, when they

20     were being taken to the barracks for labour, we didn't know what kind of

21     work they had to perform there, whether they would chop wood or work in a

22     kitchen or repair roads.  We were only able to get feedback after

23     inquiring.  Sometimes they would remain at the barracks for a month

24     without returning to the KPD.  It would also happen that an exchange

25     commission arrived but the people were physically absent, they were in

Page 36936

 1     the barracks.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 3        Q.   We will have Exhibit P5987 referenced at paragraph 52 of your

 4     statement.  That document informs the Kula prison authorities that a

 5     group of Muslim prisoners were building bunkers at Ozrenka Street

 6     positions which were constantly under infantry and rifle grenade fire.

 7     That's another example of detailed information you received about the

 8     nature of the work at a front line position; right?

 9        A.   We had information, whether or not the people were at the front

10     line, because our facility was also very near the front line.  We were

11     shelled occasionally.  So although I'm not a military expert, I know that

12     the barracks -- that barracks were near and the KPD, and the farm, they

13     were all near the front line, and everything needed protection, as well

14     as the roads that went through Lukavica to the barracks.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 24236, please.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Skiljevic, this is the other document that I gave to you

18     the other day to look at.  It's the one with the number 24236 on the

19     cover.  Now, this is the -- again this is a document that the Prosecution

20     received from Kula prison in 2003 and this document records when

21     prisoners went out to work and came back.  It's the -- basically the work

22     site list for the period 24 September 1992 to the 2nd of January, 1993;

23     right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you've had a chance to review this.  The records in this

Page 36937

 1     notebook indicate that groups of Muslim prisoners from Kula were sent out

 2     virtually every day during this time period to work at military locations

 3     such as Grbavica, the Slavisa Vajner Cica Barracks, Trebevic, Zlatiste,

 4     Dobrinja, and the Jewish Cemetery; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you had said at paragraph 50 of your statement that, in

 7     general, prisoners of war performed the same work as Serb convicts.  Just

 8     to clarify, that's only true for the work that was carried out within the

 9     prison compound.  It was only the non-Serb prisoners who were sent out to

10     work for the military at these military locations; right?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Well, you've had a chance to look at that notebook.  As I read

13     it, the names are listed under all of these military work sites and the

14     names refer exclusively to non-Serb prisoners being sent out to military

15     locations.  That's right, isn't it?

16        A.   It's 70 per cent right.

17        Q.   Well, I'll ask you during the next break to have a closer look at

18     that notebook.  And if you can identify any names of Serbs who were sent

19     out to look at -- sorry, to work at military locations, you can inform

20     the Court of that.

21             MS GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to now go to 65 ter 24211, which is the

22     same document we were looking at a few moments ago.  If we could go to

23     page 4 of the English and page 23 of the B/C/S.  And I would tender the

24     document we just looked at now.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

Page 36938

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Does the Defence accept that there is no Serbs that

 2     had been sent out to work in military places?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, that's why I think it's good to

 4     admit the entire document so if there are such names it can be seen.

 5     And, perhaps, I don't know if the witness will actually have a chance to

 6     look at that but at least it can be in the record.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   Now, on this page, Mr. Skiljevic --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 24236 will be

14     Exhibit P6280.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:

16        Q.   Mr. Skiljevic, we're back.  The document on the screen now is the

17     notebook of daily events at Kula in 1993, the one we were looking at

18     earlier.  And on this page, we can see examples of military work sites

19     including the Slavisa Vajner Cica Barracks, number 7; Zlatiste, number

20     11; and Dobrinja, number 17.  And under the remarks column, there are six

21     names of Muslim prisoners and that reference -- that indicates that those

22     six Muslim prisoners were taken to the Dobrinja work site; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And again, the work site lists in this notebook indicate that

25     during this periods of time, which is 3rd of January, 1993, to the

Page 36939

 1     3rd of November, 1993, Kula prisoners continued to be taken out to

 2     military locations to work, more or less on a daily basis; that's right,

 3     isn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If we could go to page 13 of the English and page 59 of the

 6     B/C/S.  This is the entry for the 27th of February, 1993, and we can see

 7     that one of the work sites at number 13, towards the bottom of the page,

 8     is Sucuri.  And if we go to the next page of the English and zoom in on

 9     the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, there is a remark here indicating

10     that the persons who worked at the workplace near Sucuri complained that

11     they dare not go to the above mentioned workplace because they have been

12     maltreated and physically beaten.

13             And if we could just go to the next page in the B/C/S, page 61,

14     this is the entry for the 2nd of March, and again it shows Sucuri being

15     one of the work sites at number 13.  And the next page in the B/C/S,

16     again Sucuri is one of the work sites listed.  It's there at number 14.

17     And I can tell you it is listed again for the following two days.

18             Now, in your statement you said that you knew that none of the

19     prisoners complained about being mistreated while working or while

20     staying at the KP Dom itself.  Here your records indicate that prisoners

21     were complaining about being physically mistreated while working at

22     Sucuri.  This was recorded in your prison records, and they were

23     nevertheless continued -- they nevertheless continued to be sent there to

24     work; right?

25        A.   I remember this case very well.  This is a settlement near the

Page 36940

 1     barracks, the Cica barracks.  There were problems there because large

 2     quantities of alcohol were consumed.  The people who worked there had

 3     been given alcohol.  This was not the first time that people returning

 4     from work were intoxicated.  At our facility, near the poultry farm,

 5     there was also a Serbian cemetery, and people would go there to drink.

 6     We warned of -- we issued warnings about that but we were not in the

 7     position to punish anybody because of that.  The only means that we had

 8     at our disposal to keep the people to work at our KPD and not sends them

 9     out.  And among these people there are also psychopaths and alcoholics.

10     We informed the military authorities of this.

11        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Skiljevic, these prisoners were complaining not about

12     being given alcohol, they were complaining about being maltreated and

13     physically beaten.  That was recorded in your prison records, and despite

14     that complaint they continued to be sent to this work site; right?

15        A.   We didn't send the same people, we sent other people to that work

16     site.  I said that there had been a clash with the soldiers guarding

17     them, and both were -- both sides were drunk, and that's how the problems

18     arose.

19        Q.   So I take it from your answers that Sucuri was a military work

20     site and the prisoners that were sent there to work, those were the

21     non-Serb prisoners; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS GUSTAFSON:  I would like to tender the parts of this document

24     that have been translated so all the B/C/S pages that correspond to the

25     English, and I'll be happy to liaise with the Registrar on that issue.

Page 36941

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will receive them.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6281, Your Honours.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Skiljevic, I'd like to read you another passage from

 6     your Prosecution interview in 2003.  And this is at page 153.  You said:

 7             "Upon the control by the ICRC who were always announced on time,

 8     and they come to visit the persons, the prisoners of war, they want to

 9     talk to them without the presence of the employees.  After they talk to

10     them and distribution of some help, some things that they bring, some

11     clothes, toothpaste, soap, they would come to talk to me.  Since I as the

12     head of the institution was interested in what remarks they would have,

13     the remarks would exclusively be for the fact that those persons were

14     being used for military needs, that is for digging of trenches.  And my

15     answer was always -- because they never had any other remarks as to our

16     attitude or the attitude of the guard or for the food, so my answer would

17     be, Please, it is not under our jurisdiction, and I would ask you to

18     discuss those issues with military command staff because this institution

19     does not need trenches.  We only assign people for farming tasks.  And I

20     know for sure that those delegations would leave my office going to the

21     command staff and would talk to them over there."

22             Now, it's right, isn't it?  This passage is correct.  The ICRC

23     complained directly to you about the fact that Kula prisoners were being

24     used for military work like trench digging and you referred them to the

25     military authorities.

Page 36942

 1        A.   Yes.  They spoke to me, and most times when somebody was injured

 2     or got killed, they would say that they were very concerned about the

 3     safety.  It is true that I gave this answer to them but I also told them

 4     that we had our orders and that they had to go to the military command at

 5     the barracks and speak to the people in charge.  Whether they went there

 6     or not, I don't know.  I never got any feedback.

 7        Q.   Well, in your interview you said:

 8             "And I know for sure that those delegations would leave my office

 9     going to the command staff and would talk to them over there."

10             Now, which command staff were you referring to?  Was that the SRK

11     command, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And in 2003 you were sure, or you said you were sure that they

14     would speak to the command staff.  That's right, isn't it?

15        A.   Well, they told me that they would go to the command to talk.

16     But I didn't go with to see whether they really had gone there.  I said

17     where they had to go but they knew anyway.

18             MS GUSTAFSON:  Okay, could we have 65 ter 24190, please.

19        Q.   The document that's about to come up is another document that the

20     Prosecution copied at Kula prison in 2003.  And it's an RS central

21     exchange commission document titled "information on wanted persons."  And

22     it appears from the contents to be persons wanted by the Muslim side,

23     prisoners wanted by the Muslim side.  If we could go to page 6 of the

24     English and page 4 of the B/C/S.  There are a number of entries in this

25     document.  I'd like to look at entry 8 which is right in the middle of

Page 36943

 1     the B/C/S and near the bottom of the English.  This is the entry for

 2     Samir Hidic.  And it has different pieces of information from different

 3     dates, and there is one right around the middle of the paragraph and this

 4     is right at the bottom of the page in the English.  It says, "25 November

 5     1993."  The information for that date says, "According to report received

 6     from KPD Butmir."  Sorry, if we go to the next page of the English:

 7             "According to report received KPD Butmir they were killed by a

 8     shell on Zlatiste.  Even ICRC decried Serbian side for forcing prisoners

 9     to work on the first line."  I think that should be front line.

10             And then the next entry says:

11             "23rd of March, 1994, according to reports received from

12     Soniboje Skiljevic, there is no new information."

13             And there is a similar entry if we go to page 5 of the B/C/S and

14     page 9 of the English.  This is the entry for Mustafa Hrtic, number 11,

15     so it's in the -- it's the second entry in the B/C/S.  And again, for the

16     25th of November, 1993, it says:

17             "According to KPD Butmir he was killed by a shell on Zlatiste.

18     ICRC decried Serbian side for forcing prisoners to work on the front

19     line."

20             And then again, it says for the 23rd of March, 1994, according to

21     reports received from you, there is no new information.

22             Now, the -- this document shows that the Kula prison authorities

23     informed the central RS exchange commission of the fact that Muslim

24     prisoners were working at front line positions and that the ICRC was

25     protesting this practice; right?

Page 36944

 1        A.   The exchange commission and the commission president knew of

 2     that.  Because we see that the exchange commission was notified at the

 3     airport.  The representative of the exchange commission for the people

 4     who were from Grapska is from the 1st Krajina Corps.  I only gave him

 5     accurate information in case a list came in, a list of people about which

 6     he would brief the others at meetings.  There was no intention of

 7     concealing an individual or saying that he was there in order to hide the

 8     fact that the individual had been killed.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  What is the title of the document?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I realise as we went that I had an earlier

13     translation.  The translation I have says "information on wanted

14     persons," but I'd have to look at the screen again to see if that has

15     been revised.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6282, Your Honours.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:

19        Q.   Mr. Skiljevic, I'd like to read another passage from your

20     interview in 2003 on this topic.  You were asked -- this is at page 158.

21             You were asked:

22             "I have to go back.  Again in 1992, you mentioned that you would

23     report to Avlijas.  Would that be in writing or verbally?"

24             And you said:

25             "More verbally and some in writing.  As I've said he would come

Page 36945

 1     here very often and that he was familiar with the problems of all

 2     KP Doms, once he assumed the position of assistant for implementation.

 3     And issues most often discussed were the issues on prison regulations,

 4     passing the house rules, law on implementation of criminal and

 5     misdemeanour sanctions, systematisation of work positions, resources

 6     needed for the institutions, equipment level of the police service."

 7             And then you were asked:

 8             "Thank you.  Would you also inform him about the fact that the

 9     work done by the prisoners?"

10             And you said:

11             "Yes, he was familiar with that."

12             And you were asked:

13             "And what was his reaction to the fact that prisoners would be

14     taken and would be used for military purposes?"

15             And you said:

16             "I think he had contact with them and talked to them.  I think

17     I said that in the beginning -- I think I said that in the beginning what

18     was the answer, that we had none, nor we could -- nor could we have had

19     any influence, that is that anybody could have prevented it, any of us

20     could have forbidden it."

21             Now, that's right, isn't it?  You -- as you told the OTP you were

22     in constant contact with Slobodan Avlijas, the assistant minister of

23     justice who came to Kula very often, and he was aware that Kula prisoners

24     were taken out to do military work and his response was that he was

25     unable to prevent it.

Page 36946

 1        A.   On several occasions, Mr. Avlijas, the assistant deputy minister,

 2     every time I was there would come.  He would tour the institution.  We

 3     went to meetings in Bijeljina with him because the implementation was in

 4     Bijeljina.  The only person for the implementation of sentencing.  He

 5     would call several times, he would come -- he would frequently say, Are

 6     you alive, take care of yourself, because everybody knew where we were

 7     and in which area of the war we were.  It's true that the minister was

 8     informed as well as the assistant about all of the problems because this

 9     is our job, anything that had to do with convicted persons, something

10     that was in the jurisdiction of the district courts.  But anything that

11     had to do with the military jurisdiction, there were several categories

12     of detainees that we had.  And there was also a women's section, plus

13     civilians and prisoners of war, and three warring parties.  All of that

14     was something that Mr. Avlijas was aware of.  So the answer that I gave

15     then --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

17     sentence.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:

19        Q.   Mr. Skiljevic, the interpreter did not hear what you said after

20     you said, "So the answer that I gave then."  Could you finish that

21     sentence again, please?

22        A.   I think this was in 2003 that I gave, that you read, to the

23     Prosecutor.

24        Q.   And the answer that you gave in 2003 about Mr. Avlijas's

25     knowledge of specifically of prisoners performing -- being taken out to

Page 36947

 1     do military work, that's accurate and correct; right?

 2        A.   Correct, yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MS GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 24237, please.

 5        Q.   And again, the document that will come up on your screen in a

 6     moment is a document that the Prosecution copied at the Kula prison in

 7     2003.  And it is a report of an inspection of Kula prison that took place

 8     in April 1994.  And at the bottom it says, "Pale, April 1994."  Would

 9     this inspection have been carried out by Ministry of Justice officials,

10     Mr. Skiljevic?

11        A.   I can only see the first part here.  Who signed it?

12        Q.   It doesn't have a signature.  That's why I'm asking you.  Perhaps

13     we can go through it and then it may refresh your memory about the

14     inspection.  If we could go to page 2 of the English and page 2 of the

15     B/C/S.  And in the middle of the page, it says, "Conditionally put, three

16     categories of persons are located in the facility."  A is 89 persons

17     under investigation.  And under B it says 14 convicted persons.  And then

18     at the end of the part under B it says 75 Muslim including four women and

19     46 Croatian prisoners.

20             And if we could go to page 4 of the English and page 4 of the

21     B/C/S.  And this is at the top of the B/C/S, in the middle of the

22     English, it says:

23             "The food is being prepared in the facility's kitchen as follows:

24     For facility employees, employees of the Kula police station and

25     convicted and detained persons of Serbian ethnicity, according to a set

Page 36948

 1     menu issued once a month, while different food is prepared for prisoners.

 2     Everyone eats in the facility dining room except Muslim prisoners whose

 3     food is brought to the rooms they inhabit."

 4             Now in your statement you said that the same food was served to

 5     the prisoners, guards, and KP Dom officials, but this report indicates

 6     that while the Serb convicts and the Serb detainees ate the same food as

 7     the prison staff, the non-Serb prisoners were given different food;

 8     right?

 9        A.   The report written by the inspector, it's not said here but if

10     the cooking was in the military army cauldrons and then taken to the

11     Muslims, then there was a request; for example, when beans were being

12     cooked, not to put pork into that meal.  And then they asked for food to

13     be cooked on oil, not on lard.  That would be the main difference.  There

14     was a problem with the pates, for example, that we received from the

15     Red Cross produced by Ikar.  In that food, perhaps if there was any fat

16     or anything else, a number of them would avoid eating it, not all of them

17     but a number did avoid eating it.  And we had to fulfil their requests of

18     the people who were working there, as this inspector here has written in

19     his observations.

20        Q.   And although in your statement you said that food was provided to

21     interned persons in the dining room, this document clearly states that

22     Muslim prisoners did not eat in the dining room, they eat in the rooms in

23     which they were imprisoned; right?

24        A.   No.  According to this, it would seem that they ate in their

25     rooms, but they actually had their own dining room between the two

Page 36949

 1     facilities.  It was difficult to prepare 1200 meals every day and to

 2     issue them at the same time.  The people who were going to work had to

 3     have breakfast first, then they would have a snack, then they would come

 4     for lunch, then it would be officials, we had professors, district

 5     courts, police, people from the Ministry of the -- of internal affairs,

 6     employees.  There was a separate room for that or actually a canteen or a

 7     dining room.  Food was not taken to the rooms, in any event.  Only if

 8     somebody was ill perhaps, then it would be taken to them because they

 9     couldn't come to the dining hall.

10        Q.   Now, having had a chance to see some of this report, do you

11     recall now whether this inspection was carried out by Ministry of Justice

12     officials in April 1994?

13        A.   As far as I can remember, there was one inspector at the

14     Ministry of Justice at the time, and I think that he wrote this report.

15     The document should have been signed.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document and I'd like to now go to

17     65 ter 24232.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6283, Your Honours.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:

22        Q.   The next document we are going to look at Mr. Skiljevic is

23     actually the appeals judgement by the Bosnian state court, the document

24     that you reference in your statement but is not tendered.  And it's

25     referenced at paragraph 17 of your statement.  And you noted that you

Page 36950

 1     were acquitted on appeal.  If we could go to page 74 of the English and

 2     page 56 of the B/C/S, and if I could direct your attention to

 3     paragraph 194 of the judgement, and this is in the section of the

 4     judgement dealing with conditions in the prison between the

 5     16th of December, 1992, and mid-December 1995.  And it refers to eight

 6     witnesses -- starting in the second sentence who all -- eight witnesses

 7     and others, it says, discussed overcrowding in the KPD Butmir.  They

 8     slept on mattresses and blankets, had insufficient foods which mostly

 9     consisted of two meals and endured poor hygienic conditions.  And it says

10     some witnesses testified that they had the possibility of bathing with

11     cold water and about the lack of heating during the winter months.  And

12     the Court states, these conditions are undoubtedly unsatisfactory,

13     although it notes some witnesses said that the conditions were better

14     than other camps in which they had been detained.

15             And if we could go to paragraph 177 which is on page 70 of the

16     English and page 53 of the B/C/S, at paragraph 177 it states that the

17     Defence teams for both accused agreed that the detention conditions with

18     respect to the provision of food and hygienic accommodation were not

19     satisfactory but argued that the army was responsible for meeting the

20     dietary and hygiene needs of detained non-Serbs.  Now, in your statement

21     in this trial, at paragraph 8, you asserted that the food at KPD was

22     sufficient and none of the prisoners went hungry, whereas at your own

23     trial you agreed that the food and other living conditions for non-Serb

24     prisoners at Kula were inadequate and blamed the army for this; right?

25        A.   No.  I wouldn't wish to comment on the judgement of a

Page 36951

 1     trial chamber or any court decisions.  Simply I would not want to comment

 2     on that.  This is an official judgement.

 3        Q.   You've already commented on this judgement in your witness

 4     statement, Mr. Skiljevic.  You put it forward in asserting that you were

 5     charged with crimes at Kula camp and acquitted.  And this states clearly

 6     that the position you took in your own trial was that the food provided

 7     to the non-Serb prisoners at Kula was inadequate.  That's right, isn't

 8     it?

 9        A.   No, that's not correct.  It depends on the period that you're

10     talking about.  I am talking about the period from 1993.  I'm not talking

11     about the initial period.  We don't want to mix things up.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, I note that I'm at the end of my

13     time.  I could conclude in five minutes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:

16        Q.   Now just remaining on the topic of this judgement that you point

17     to in your witness statement, I'd like to summarise the reasons for which

18     you and Mr. Lalovic were acquitted and you can tell me if you agree with

19     that.  The appellate chamber concluded that Kula prison constituted an

20     organised criminal system in which large numbers of non-Serb civilians

21     were unlawfully detained and provided with inadequate food, hygienic

22     facilities and medical care, and subjected to forced labour resulting in

23     injuries and death.  The appellate chamber also concluded that you were

24     undoubtedly aware of this criminal system.  But the chamber acquitted you

25     of unlawful detention, inhumane conditions of detention and forced labour

Page 36952

 1     because it found there was a reasonable doubt that you, as opposed to the

 2     Republika Srpska military authorities, were responsible for those crimes.

 3             Do you agree with that summary?

 4        A.   I'm sorry, I did not hear the last sentence.

 5        Q.   The last sentence was that you were acquitted of unlawful

 6     detention, inhumane conditions of detention and forced labour because the

 7     appeals chamber found that there was a reasonable doubt that it was you

 8     rather than the military authorities of the Republika Srpska that were

 9     responsible for those crimes.

10        A.   That we were responsible?

11        Q.   Sorry, the appeals chamber concluded that the military

12     authorities may have been responsible for the crimes rather than you, and

13     that's why you were acquitted; right?

14        A.   That's better now, because before you said that we were

15     responsible.  I can just give a brief comment.  During the war, the

16     Kula KP Dom, and I'm telling this Trial Chamber and all those present,

17     that there was no institution in Republika Srpska or Bosnia-Herzegovina

18     that had better accommodation, food and everything than the KP Dom, and

19     this has been proven in trial proceedings so far.  Mr. Mandic, the

20     warden, and the seven wardens and guards who were tried before the court

21     in eastern Sarajevo showed that everything that the Prosecution charged

22     and sought to prove could not be proved against us responsible ones.  So

23     far, there have been 11 of us.

24        Q.   Well, again, do you agree that the appeals chamber found that all

25     these crimes were committed at Kula, unlawful detention, forced labour,

Page 36953

 1     cruel treatment, the reason you were acquitted is because the Court

 2     concluded that the military authorities may have been responsible for

 3     those crimes carried out at Kula prison.  That's right, isn't it?

 4        A.   No single crime was committed in Kula, specifically.  If there

 5     was any crime, it was from a shell that killed Serbian people and a shell

 6     that dropped in the military farm and another shell when a policeman on

 7     duty was killed.  No person was killed in the facility of the KP Dom.

 8     Secondly, it's correct that at work sites and during work duty at the

 9     farm and outside of the KP Dom, there were some people who were killed

10     and who were wounded.  I'm not disputing this and I did not dispute this

11     before the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina either.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this judgement.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.  I think it should be admitted in

15     its entirety since the reasoning was referred to.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, Mr. Robinson, has the Chamber ever

18     admitted a judgement of a different chamber or court?  If you could

19     remind me of our practice.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, you've been admitting portions of judgements

21     in the past.  We have usually taken just the portion that showed the

22     result without the reasoning, but there have been other occasions when

23     you've admitted portions of a judgement either showing someone was

24     convicted or acquitted.  In this case we think the whole judgement should

25     be admitted because the questioning dealt with not only the outcome but

Page 36954

 1     the reasoning.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And, Your Honours, if I might add in the

 3     Prosecution's case the Chamber admitted -- I'm aware of at least two full

 4     judgements that were admitted by the accused in cross-examination

 5     relating to crimes in Rogatica.  I don't have the numbers at my

 6     fingertips but I could certainly find them.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will take this under advisement and come

 8     back to this issue later on.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, I have no further questions.  Thank

10     you, Mr. Skiljevic.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies, but I see

13     the time, so I'm wondering if we should begin now or would it be better

14     to do it after the break?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We will have a break for half an hour and resume at

16     3 minutes to 11.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If I could just take

21     the opportunity to inform the Court of the exhibit numbers of the

22     judgements you had previously add admitted.  They are D1665, and D1666.

23     And if I could just add that apart from that I think these are somewhat

24     unique circumstances given that the judgement I tendered was raised,

25     discussed and referenced at paragraph 17 of the witness statement.  And

Page 36955

 1     as it's raised in the sense of the witness's acquittal it could leave an

 2     impression that the Bosnian state court concluded that crimes weren't

 3     committed at Kula, whereas the judgement as a whole makes it quite clear

 4     that the Court concluded crimes why systematically committed at Kula

 5     prison.  So I think to put the assertions at paragraph 17 in their proper

 6     context, that these are circumstances where fairness would militate in

 7     favour of admitting this exhibit.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the Chamber will consider the issue.

 9             Thank you.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not quite certain that it can

12     be taken that the Court determined responsibility for events in Kula.  It

13     determined that this witness and his associates were not guilty.  But the

14     Defence will consider this further.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Skiljevic, good morning.

17             THE ACCUSED:  Good morning, Your Excellencies.  Good morning,

18     everyone.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let us start with what is the freshest.  Did the Muslim prisoners

22     provided less food than the Serbian ones?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you give less than you had and less than you

25     could to Muslim prisoners and anyone else?

Page 36956

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   So did you purposefully withhold food and items needed for

 3     personal hygiene, and so on?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   You said that for POWs, you requested assistance in food from the

 6     army.  As for those who were criminally prosecuted, the

 7     minister of justice was in charge of them.  And how did you treat the

 8     Muslim civilians, those who arrived to be exchanged and for your

 9     reunification with their families, were they treated as prisoners at all?

10        A.   They were separated from the detainees in another building, so

11     they were not covered by the same treatment in any way.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have sufficient food for them, and how did

13     you arrange this?

14        A.   From the contingent of food that was available for us, and which

15     we produced at our farm, we also requested from the government and the

16     high commissioner to send us certain produce because a group of civilians

17     from the vicinity of Rogatica was accommodated in the Dom so we wouldn't

18     be in the situation if we received more people from other locations, that

19     we would not have sufficient food and we would have hungry people and

20     wouldn't be able to feed them all.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 24191, please.  If we could

23     have that document in e-court.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Is this your document with your signature and do you remember --

Page 36957

 1     no, no, first page, please.  But I think it's not -- what we have now is

 2     not -- the previous page, rather.  The previous document.  Yes, thank

 3     you.

 4             Can you please answer, is this your document with your signature

 5     and who did you address this request to?

 6        A.   I addressed this request on the 5th of September, 1994, to the

 7     commission for refugees and humanitarian aid of Republika Srpska in Pale,

 8     that is to say the commissariat for refugees and humanitarian aid of

 9     Republika Srpska in Pale.  All the requests before this one and this one

10     too were fully granted, thanks to the commission which was then in charge

11     of the refugees, and the entire department, the head of the commission

12     was Mr. Ljubisa Vladusic [phoen], Ljubisa Vladusic.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Why did you write to them, the commission for

14     refugees?  What did you request and for what category of inmates?

15        A.   We wrote to them for prisoners of war and civilians because we

16     received resources from the budget, that is to say from the

17     Ministry of Finance.  We were allocated funds from the budget for

18     providing food to the convicted persons and those who were still under

19     investigation.

20        Q.   It says here that in addition to the main function during the war

21     refugees of Muslim ethnicity were also accommodated in the Dom during the

22     war.  Is that the reason why you requested it from the commission for

23     refugees because these people were refugees?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 36958

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this please be admitted into

 2     evidence.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  This is already an associated exhibit, D3335.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I'm not familiar

 5     enough with my own case.  I apologise.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But it was in different 65 ter number.  Yes.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Were there any other reasons apart from religious reasons for

10     different cauldrons in which food was cooked for prisoners who were of

11     different religious affiliations?

12        A.   No, not at all.  We had established the practice for the Bajram

13     and for the Serbian and Croatian Christmas, that on those days we would

14     prepare special food.  We called them reinforced meals with a cake and a

15     glass of wine, and that was the practice in penal and correctional

16     facilities then.

17        Q.   Thank you.  On page 24 today, you were asked whether Avlijas was

18     informed that the prisoners went to perform labour.  Could you tell us

19     whether Mr. Avlijas belonged to the civilian or military structures in

20     Republika Srpska?

21        A.   He was the assistant minister for the serving of sentences in the

22     Ministry of Justice of Republika Srpska.

23        Q.   You were also asked whether he knew that prisoners went to

24     perform labour.  Did he have any authority or jurisdiction over the

25     prisoners because prisoner and detainee, it's more or less one and the

Page 36959

 1     same word in English.  Prisoner.  But we should say prisoner of war or

 2     captive for the prisoners.  Did he have any jurisdictions over POWs?

 3        A.   He had jurisdiction over us.  In fact, we called him boss or

 4     chief.  He was the chief of the prison.  He was our immediate superior

 5     from the civilian authorities.  He was in charge of persons who had been

 6     convicted and who were under the jurisdiction of civilian courts.  So

 7     that was the sole jurisdiction.  The assistants had it, or rather, the

 8     Ministry of Justice, and of course we did as well, we who were the heads

 9     of the relevant institutions.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'm interested in the following:  You said today that

11     nothing was concealed.  You were working for the state.  In the name of

12     the state, did you record every misdemeanour or violation or anything

13     that the state had to know and had to prevent, or did you conceal

14     anything, and how did Mr. Avlijas behave with regard to this?

15        A.   From the beginning of 1992, we still have all the documents, all

16     the records, every day, everything was recorded.  A number of big

17     notebooks and files, complete files with medical documents, consumption

18     of food, everything was recorded as if there was no war at all.  We

19     recorded everything and registered everything as we used to do before the

20     war.  As I worked about this for 35 years, I worked only with convicted

21     persons, and this aspect of the work is something I am completely

22     familiar with, and we used this as our guidelines.  And we applied this

23     to all the other categories of persons who were at the KP Dom, who were

24     accommodated there.  POWs, civilians, whoever came to the KP Dom, we

25     never concealed anything, whichever information the international

Page 36960

 1     instances or courts and this Tribunal requested, we always submitted

 2     everything.  Nothing was secret.  Everything has been recorded on paper.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skiljevic.  On page 10 and page 11, it was

 4     suggested to you that Rosic did not want to know about civilians, the

 5     late minister Rosic, the justice minister.  Did you say that that was

 6     correct or that it was correct -- I'm sorry, perhaps I could quote to you

 7     what exactly was said on that particular page.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And then after that, a non-leading question

 9     should be asked.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This was the question at the end of page 10:

12             [In English] "Are you stating there that you were, you informed

13     the minister of justice of your concerns about civilians being held in

14     the prison but he didn't want to discuss that; is that correct?"

15             [Interpretation] And you answered:

16             [In English] "That is correct.  At meetings we also pointed

17     out ...," [Interpretation] and so on and so forth.

18             Was the reason that the justice minister did not inquire about

19     these people was that they were civilians or because of who they were or

20     because of who detained them and under whose jurisdiction they were?

21        A.   He only --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, yes, Ms. Gustafson.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That question shouldn't have been asked that way.

24     The witness is given only two options.  It should be asked in an open

25     way.

Page 36961

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.  Though

 3     this -- Ms. Gustafson's question was also misleading.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   But tell us why wasn't he interested in that category of the

 6     Dom's inmates?

 7        A.   The Ministry of Justice was not in charge of them.  It didn't

 8     have the jurisdiction, and if as an organ the Ministry of Justice did not

 9     have the jurisdiction then the minister didn't either and that's why he

10     acted in that way.  What was the jurisdiction of the army, namely the

11     POWs, and where the persons under investigation were under the

12     jurisdiction of the military, that is to say the military courts, they

13     were a category that was separate from those who were under the

14     jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice, and therefore he talked with us

15     about those specific issues and not about the others which were not under

16     our jurisdiction.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So what effect did it have, that they were civilians

18     and he did not inquire about them?

19        A.   Not any effect.  He talked with us, and we requested that these

20     people should be transferred from the penal and correctional facilities

21     because they only made trouble and difficulties for us, if I can put it

22     that way.  Because we had to take care about people who were staying with

23     us and who were not under our jurisdiction, we had to provide them with a

24     lot of care with respect to providing them with food and health service

25     and satisfying all their other needs.  That had to be seen to.

Page 36962

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On page 21, it is stated that at Zlatiste, some

 2     prisoners or POWs or captured persons were killed due to shelling.  Can

 3     you tell us is there anything else in Zlatiste except the front line?

 4     Does this mean that they were at the front line?

 5        A.   There is nothing.

 6        Q.   Is there some kind of tower there?  Is there any logistics, any

 7     depth?

 8        A.   Well, the labour that was performed was always performed in the

 9     depth of territory, when they were doing something in the barracks

10     after -- below Mojmilo Brdo.  You cannot see the positions of the

11     opposing sides there.  You cannot see that from the tower at Zlatiste.

12     You cannot even see the KP Dom or houses in Donji Kotorac or Novakovici.

13     All that is above the combat lines.  But in that area, in these

14     locations, people were killed by shells and also by sniper fire.  And as

15     they were leaving, as they were going from the KP Dom to where they had

16     to perform their labour between Kula and Lukavica in the location in

17     Bijelo Polje on the road, as they were going and coming back, the same

18     also happened.

19        Q.   You are talking about indirect mortar fire.  What are the

20     sections of Sarajevo, the city proper, and the general area of the city

21     were those that could not be hit by mortar fire?  That is to say where

22     could you be and be sure that nothing would fall?

23        A.   Well, I don't know.  Perhaps Trtunici [phoen] up there, because

24     in Kasindol where we were and where the hospital was, even there mortar

25     shells sometimes landed.  In Cilava [phoen] as well and in Pale, I mean,

Page 36963

 1     there was no great safety anywhere.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You have served the army, haven't you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   We just have to make pauses between question and answer, please.

 5     Can you tell me except for trenches was there anything else in the -- at

 6     the front line?  You mentioned some communicating trenches.  I'm not sure

 7     if it was properly understood what was meant by that.  Are there any

 8     reserve positions or something else that is dug out and that is not

 9     necessarily at the front of the first front line, that is to say that is

10     located in depth?

11        A.   Well, there were some communications or roads constructed to

12     transport goods, and so on, because this area was not densely populated.

13     Many refugees had arrived.  Many facilities had been constructed but

14     there were no access roads, access roads to the barracks, access roads to

15     houses, access roads leading to hospital; that is to say whatever was

16     needed so that these places could be reached as fast as possible and so

17     that people could be removed from the confrontation line.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On page 18 you mentioned that people would drink when

19     they went to perform labour.  You mentioned the Serbian cemetery that was

20     nearby and you said that not a single bottle of brandy had remained full.

21     Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what is the connection between a

22     graveyard or a cemetery and brandy or rakia in B/C/S.

23        A.   Well, it's close to the poultry farm where eggs were produced and

24     the Serbian graveyard is there.  According to Serbian customs, you leave

25     some brandy at the cemetery after the burial is performed.  So during the

Page 36964

 1     night, if it was there, after the work was performed, people would take

 2     the brandy and drink it because it was close to the buildings.  And you

 3     had soldiers in the barracks who also consumed a lot of alcohol.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Was it also a custom to leave something else in

 5     graveyards, such as food and so on, and did homeless people and who

 6     else -- or how did this all end up, the items which were left in the

 7     cemetery according to age-old customs?

 8        A.   Well, mostly it was rakia or brandy that people were after.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You were told that some of the prisoners went to

10     Grbavica.  Was Grbavica a military location by its nature?  Or what was

11     it, in -- by its character, was it a military location or a civilian

12     settlement?

13        A.   During the war, in Grbavica, there were -- I don't know the exact

14     information, but I think it had about 10.000 residents who were living in

15     Grbavica.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And perhaps if you know, do you know that in 1994,

17     the international, or rather, the high commission established that out of

18     the 10.000, 4.000 were Muslims?  Did you know this?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You were also asked about the following:  You met

21     Stanisic.  You met Mandic.  Did Mandic, when he arrived, to his premises,

22     the premises of the ministry, did he come to his premises or offices or

23     did he come to the prison?

24        A.   Mandic occasionally came to his own offices, and in these offices

25     he held meetings because at the time this had been established.  It was

Page 36965

 1     your duty.  You had established the KP Doms and the courts, the lower

 2     court, the district court, were then set up in eastern Sarajevo and it

 3     was precisely on the premises of the KP Dom -- well, the premises.  We

 4     are actually talking about the administration building, which belonged to

 5     the KP Dom throughout the war up until 1996, also housed the district

 6     court and the district public prosecutor's office.  So it was a normal

 7     thing that the minister would hold meetings there with representatives of

 8     the Ministry of Justice.  The assistants Vrljasovic [phoen], Avlijas, and

 9     others, they drafted certain regulations, being sure that they would

10     maintain law and order and so on, and with his deputy at the time, that

11     was Nenad Obradovic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I would like you to explain to the Chamber that if

13     someone visits his offices or premises, is that within the complex and is

14     administration building also located within the complex, or can you enter

15     this building without entering the complex?

16        A.   Well, it's next to the gate.  It's at the gate itself and those

17     who were staying there were at distance of about 70 metres, those who

18     were convicted and those who were inmates and there were other facilities

19     around those buildings.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You were also told that Minister Mico Stanisic, who

21     was the minister of the interior, sometimes visited as well.  Was the

22     public security station in Kula also an integral part of the prison?

23        A.   The Kula public security station was --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Skiljevic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the KPD was closed down, when

Page 36966

 1     the convicts were released on the 6th of April, 1992, a certain time

 2     later a police station was placed there, the Kula police station.  The

 3     former warden, Kreho, and the remaining staff of the KPD were also there,

 4     and some people from the farm, the Ekonomija.  That was the situation

 5     until August 1992, when the police station moved to another building,

 6     also owned by the KPD at the same locality as the farm.  And the station

 7     stayed there until 2010.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   In organisational terms was it part of the prison or did it

10     belong to the MUP?

11        A.   No.  They belonged to the MUP.  We were parts of two different

12     ministries:  One was the Ministry of Justice, the other the

13     Ministry of the Interior.  The KPD was under the Ministry of Justice,

14     whereas the police were under the Ministry of the Interior.

15        Q.   Thank you.  If Minister Stanisic was seen coming to the public

16     security station, did he come to visit the prison or the police station?

17        A.   No.  He would visit his co-workers.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Let's have a look at P6277.  You were asked how much

19     earlier you learned that I was coming and Mr. Ashdown, and you said that

20     you only learned of our arrival two hours in advance which was contested.

21     Let's take a look at this document, P6277, page 26 through 28.  Actually,

22     the correct page number is 175, and I'm interested in lines 26

23     through 28.  175.  Here is what you said then.  I'll read it out in

24     English:

25             [In English] "Just that everything should be as normal and

Page 36967

 1     I practically found out about their arrival two hours before they would

 2     come because it was postponed and postponed all the time.  First it was

 3     said that they would come at 1.00, then they didn't come at 1.00, so it

 4     was prolonged.  I didn't even know if they would come at all."

 5             [Interpretation] In that interview, you said that you had learned

 6     of our arrival two hours in advance?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Let us have page 180, lines 22 through 28.  Here, we

 9     went through that fast:

10             [In English] "And I think that minister was grateful."

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry.  This passages never put to the witness in

13     cross-examination, and now this is just a totally leading exercise for

14     Dr. Karadzic to go to other parts and reads them out to the witness.  If

15     he wants to ask about things that are in this statement he should just

16     ask the questions rather than reading out the witness's prior statement.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, there is nothing wrong with putting

18     something to a witness and asking him whether it's accurate or not.  The

19     witness can say:  No, this is wrong, or, yes, this is correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, the witness started

22     reading this paragraph but he was interrupted.  I would like him to

23     complete his answer.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell us in what context he was stopped

25     reading?

Page 36968

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor interrupted him.

 2     The Prosecutor was not interested in that paragraph, Ms. Gustafson, that

 3     is.  But I am interested.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Instead of showing the passage, why could you not

 5     put the question first, some foundational question?  Is it related to

 6     whether or not he was informed two hours before the -- their arrival?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellency, I wanted to enable

 8     him to finish his answer.  He started saying the minister said this and

 9     that.  I can put the question differently.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see the question and answer first.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you like me to ask my

12     question now?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear the interpretation.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But in Serbian version which the

15     witness had started reading.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   But can you tell us, during this visit of the minister, what

18     information did he get and how did he assess the work of you and your

19     co-workers?

20        A.   He said it was excellent.  No remarks whatsoever.

21        Q.   Then I seek to tender this page unless it is admitted already,

22     but I believe part of it is admitted because Ms. Gustafson introduced

23     something from this page.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And now it's for you to put this part to the

25     witness.  The witness didn't comment on this.

Page 36969

 1             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I think the witness has given an answer that's

 3     basically the same as what's in his prior statement, so I don't see any

 4     reason for the statement to then be put to the witness.  Normally that

 5     would only be to refresh recollection or impeachment.  And I also don't

 6     see a basis for its admission.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I tend to agree with Ms. Gustafson.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's all the same to me.  I got an

 9     answer that the minister thought they were doing excellent work.  With

10     this page it would have been more complete, that he had commended them

11     and that he enabled them to be in constant contact with him.  I think

12     this would have been a more useful to the Bench, but if you prefer

13     otherwise --

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Skiljevic, I don't remember if I asked you in my

16     examination-in-chief whether you were commended during your work or given

17     any decoration or award.

18        A.   Before the war, I was commended a number of times; those were

19     penological commendations for my work.  I also got oral commendations.

20     I wasn't decorated, though, although I stood up before a tank and

21     prevented them from shooting at the detention unit, because an order had

22     been given to fire shells at everybody in the building.  But I said, Only

23     over my dead body.

24        Q.   There have been suggestions today that the KPD was overcrowded,

25     so can we get document P24237.  Can we see page 3 in e-court, which is

Page 36970

 1     the second page of the document.  Please focus on what it says about the

 2     other building -- persons of Croatian ethnicity while two Muslim women

 3     are in a separate room.  All the dormitories have a sufficient number of

 4     beds, blankets, but there is a significant shortage of pillows, and so

 5     on, a TV set.  And then they say further down, sanitary areas are

 6     operational, there is water, and the inmates were interviewed in the

 7     absence of the personnel.  And the conclusion was that there were no

 8     objections.  Although this report is not signed, is it in line with what

 9     you knew?

10        A.   Everything stated here is correct.  I made some remarks to this

11     report and it was signed by Professor Vukasin Gutovic.  At the time he

12     was the only inspector at the -- in the sentence implementation

13     department.  There was a shortage of electricity and water, but we made

14     some furnaces in our workshops and we also received some from the ICRC,

15     and all the dormitories had solid fuel furnaces.  The 4th of July -- on

16     the 4th of July, 1992, a shell completely destroyed the boiler room.

17     That's why the only option for heating was fuel or solid fuel furnaces.

18     This is how we provided for their needs.  And since some of the areas are

19     rather dirty, such as the pig farm or the poultry farm, and a generator

20     had to work constantly, and therefore there were bathrooms where

21     everybody could come and have a bath, though sometimes we would be

22     without water, but then we went to a well and brought water in

23     containers, to avoid epidemiological problems.

24        Q.   Has there been an epidemic?

25        A.   No.

Page 36971

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let us see page 10, please.  That's page 10 in the

 2     Serbian.  Probably in the English too.  It says here, the Kula catering

 3     facility -- it says 80 per cent of the window panes are destroyed.

 4     Further down it says damage by shrapnel, a part of the furniture stolen,

 5     so tell us how come these window panes were broken by shrapnel?  Was the

 6     cafeteria targeted?

 7        A.   The cafeteria is some 250 or 300 metres away from the KPD.  It is

 8     near the farm and it was badly damaged by mortar shells.  Only in 1994,

 9     when there was the blue road running through the farm, which the

10     civilians from Lukavica took to get to the airport, accompanied by

11     international forces, UNPROFOR and SFOR, then there was no shelling after

12     1600 hours.  After that, when the road was closed, the shelling would

13     continue.  Shells were fired from mortars.  The facility was not in

14     function, and only in mid-1994 was it used again.

15        Q.   Thank you.  There are some more things in that other interview

16     but I won't deal with that because the interview has been admitted.

17     Thank you for your evidence, Mr. Skiljevic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

19     Your Excellencies.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Skiljevic.  That

21     concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber I would like to thank

22     you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for being fair and

24     all the best.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 36972

 1             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for the next witness, I'd like

 2     to put this on the record.  During the testimony of Dragomir Obradovic,

 3     the Chamber admitted 65 ter 1D7300 as Exhibit D3189.  During his

 4     testimony a discussion ensued as to the correctness of the English

 5     translation of the first sentence in that document.  The Chamber has

 6     asked for a revised translation of the document, and that the Chamber

 7     instructs the Registry to upload the revised translation onto e-court in

 8     replacement of the previous English one.  The newly or the revised

 9     document reads -- I mean, the first sentence:  At certain times 61

10     Muslims civilians were moved out of the village of Vrbanja instead of

11     being removed.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             Very well.  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

14     please?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  DUSAN KOZIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kozic, please be seated and make

20     yourself comfortable.

21             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Kozic, I must draw your

22     attention to a certain rule of procedure and evidence that we have here

23     at the International Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you

24     may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution

25     or even from the Judges, if you believe that your answer might

Page 36973

 1     incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate"

 2     means saying something that might amount to admission of guilt for a

 3     criminal offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you

 4     might have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that

 5     an answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

 6     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

 7     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

 8     would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would

 9     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

10     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

11             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Kozic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] thank you.

16                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation ] Good day, Mr. Kozic.

18        A.   Good day, Mr. President.

19        Q.   May I ask that you pause between my questions and your answers,

20     and for us to speak our sentences out slowly without hurry so that

21     everything could be recorded in the transcript.

22        A.   Of course.  I also read the instructions.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 36974

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7720 in e-court,

 2     please.  1D7720.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 4        Q.   Do you see the first page of this statement on the screen in

 5     front of you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read the statement and did you sign it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the last page to the

11     witness now, please, so that he can identify his signature.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is this your signature?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully convey what you told

16     the Defence team?  Do you wish to change anything, clarify anything or

17     amend anything?

18        A.   Yes, in essence.  Yes, if we go one item by item, perhaps there

19     would be some things that I would change that are of a technical nature.

20        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you today in this courtroom the same

21     questions, would your answers in essence be the same as the ones in this

22     statement?

23        A.   Yes, entirely so.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

Page 36975

 1     tender this bundle pursuant to 92 ter.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, there are 15 associated exhibits

 3     and we would ask permission of six of them to be added to the Rule 65 ter

 4     list which they were not included as a result of inadvertence.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just, I'm checking, the number I have is 14.  Could

 7     you check the numbers again -- number again, whether it's 14 or 15?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  I've been at it a few times and I came up with 15.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Fifteen.  Let me hear from you first, Ms. McKenna.

10     Good morning to you.

11             MS. McKENNA:  Good morning.  I think I have 15 numbers as well,

12     although I note that there are partial translations only of five of the

13     documents.  I presume that the Defence is only tendering those documents

14     in part.  And in relation to 65 ter 17311, there is no translation.

15     I also --

16             JUDGE KWON:  17 -- I don't have that number.  17311 is being

17     tendered?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No, it's listed as an additional exhibit that's

19     not being tendered.

20             MS. McKENNA:  My mistake, Your Honour.  I'd also just like to

21     query.  The witness has said that he would make changes of a technical

22     nature.  I think this leaves some confusion on the record so perhaps

23     Mr. Karadzic could clarify it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I take it, Mr. Karadzic, you will take that up.

25     Shall we go through one by one.  The first one I have is 65 ter 5987.

Page 36976

 1     I take it that the Defence is tendering only the item that's dealt with,

 2     i.e. item 27.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  How about adding the cover page --

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  We can do that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  -- which hasn't been translated.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay, we could submit that to translation.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  With that understanding we will admit it.  And next

 9     one, 5989, shall we do the same exercise?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  And same goes to the next item, 5994.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  And, Mr. President, these are actually

13     Prosecution 65 ter numbers, so we will go ahead and submit them for

14     translation and then give them to the Prosecution for upload unless they

15     have the cover page translated.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there would be no problem with it.

17             MS. McKENNA:  That's fine, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The same goes for 5995.  And next item the Chamber

19     has is 17324.  The Chamber does not see this as indispensable and

20     inseparable part of the statement in that the witness did not participate

21     in the delegation, he does not recall the report, and in any event I

22     don't think he made any substantial comment on the report.  So that will

23     not be admitted.

24             And the Chamber has no difficulty with the following numbers:

25     17457, 30231, 1D7897, 1D25775, 1D25776, 1D25778.

Page 36977

 1             And the Chamber has similar concern about 1D25779 to those in

 2     relation to 17324.  So we will not admit this one for the similar reason.

 3             And the remaining two, 1D25783 and 1D25784 will be admitted.  Is

 4     there any item I omitted?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  I think 1D25752 may have been omitted.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  What paragraph is dealing with that document?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Fourteen.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  If Mr. Karadzic could kindly deal with it live in

 9     order to save time.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, if I may, I believe this document is

11     already admitted as D3156.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Ah-hah.  That -- then it resolves everything.

13             So shall we give the number for the statement?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, 65 ter 1D07220 will be D3364.

15             JUDGE KWON:  The remaining associated exhibits will be admitted

16     and be given a number in due course by the Registry.

17             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.

19     I would now like read the summary in English of Mr. Dusan Kozic's

20     statement.

21             [In English] Dusan Kozic was born in Ljubina on

22     8th of January [sic], 1958.  He was an MP in the BH parliament from 1990

23     until 1992, and later a member of the Assembly of the Serbian People, and

24     National Assembly of Republika Srpska.  As national tensions grew and

25     transferred to the assembly, the HDZ and SDA parties constantly disrupted

Page 36978

 1     the partnership agreed after the elections.  The reconciliatory tones in

 2     the National Assembly were most often of Dr. Karadzic.

 3             Dusan Kozic became the prime minister of Republika Srpska from

 4     18th of August, 1994, to 16th of October, 1995.  The government was

 5     responsible to the National Assembly.  Dusan Kozic found that the work of

 6     the government was independent from the Presidency.

 7             Dr. Radovan Karadzic neither carried out, ordered, supported, nor

 8     in any other way influenced the commission of war crimes against the

 9     non-Serb population in BH.  Dr. Karadzic fully supported a decision of

10     the government giving powers to the MUP and the Ministry of Justice and

11     administration to collect information on crimes against humanity and

12     international law relating to victims of all nationalities.

13             Dusan Kozic and his colleagues worked hard to establish law and

14     order in BH.  He underwent efforts to make it impossible for any army or

15     the police to abuse their positions, and to remove MUP employees that

16     were overstepping their powers.  The government made exceptional efforts

17     to enable to -- independence of the judiciary.

18             The formation of the SAOs were based on the laws of that time and

19     were public.  Alija Izetbegovic was informed and included in the

20     negotiations.

21             The role of the War Presidencies was to replace the

22     Municipal Assemblies in order to make the work more efficient in the

23     situations when we -- the assembly couldn't gather.  They were informed

24     that they must adhere to the decisions and guidelines regarding their

25     work and any decision that impinged on the jurisdiction of the republican

Page 36979

 1     organs would be invalid.  The government endeavoured to curb the

 2     self-will of the War Presidencies.  A number of orders from various

 3     War Presidencies were suspended but the republican organs still had

 4     problems with establishing effective power in certain municipalities.

 5             In July 1995, a government delegation visited Srebrenica.

 6     Dusan Kozic recalls that the VRS demanded that the municipal secretariats

 7     for National Defence mobilise all available means of transport to

 8     evacuate Muslim citizens to Tuzla at their own request.  The government

 9     did not have a prepared evacuation plan for the civilians from

10     Srebrenica.

11             In August 1995, Mr. Dusan Kozic attended a meeting between the

12     political and military leaders of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and

13     the Republika Srpska.  It was discussed that NATO and UNPROFOR were

14     co-operating militarily with the B and H army by providing intelligence.

15     At this meeting, Dr. Karadzic noted that future peace plans to be signed

16     by negotiators must be shown to the Republika Srpska Assembly showing

17     commitment to constitutionality and legality.  The incident at Markale

18     was also discussed.  Generals Tolimir and Mladic were convinced that the

19     shells did not arrive from the Serbian positions.  Mr. Dusan Kozic was

20     aware that there was a lack of co-operation between the civilian and

21     military sector.  On August the 22nd of 1995, Dr. Karadzic informed

22     Dusan Kozic and his colleagues about conflicts between the military and

23     state organs of the republic, which continued until the end of the war.

24             [Interpretation] I have no questions for Mr. Kozic.

25             I think that we can do without any additional documents, so at

Page 36980

 1     this point in time I'm not going to tender any.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Mr. Kozic, as you have noted, your

 3     evidence in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing, that is

 4     through your written statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you

 5     will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the

 6     Prosecutor.  Do you understand that, sir?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. McKenna.

 9             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

11        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kozic.  Now --

12        A.   Good day.

13        Q.   -- just before we start I'd like to remind you that we are very

14     limited in time, so I would appreciate if you could listen to my

15     questions carefully and answer them as precisely and concisely as

16     possible.  Is that clear?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You were a founder member of the SDS; isn't that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you were also a member of the SDS Main Board?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You were present at the constituting session of the assembly of

25     the Serb people in BiH in -- on the 24th of October, 1991; correct?

Page 36981

 1        A.   Could you please say that again?  Would you repeat that question,

 2     the date of the event, please?

 3        Q.   The 24th of October, 1991.

 4        A.   The forming of the Assembly of the Serbian People?  Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And you were awarded the order of Nemanjic by

 6     Karadzic's decree on the 9th of January, 1994, due to your role as a

 7     founder of the Serb Assembly and as a continuing member of the assembly.

 8     That's correct, isn't it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, together with Nikola Koljevic, you accompanied Mr. Karadzic

11     on his first visit to Slobodan Milosevic in September 1990, didn't you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And an UNPROFOR cable reporting on your appointment as

14     prime minister stated, Kozic is known to be personally close and loyal to

15     Karadzic - for the parties' reference that is D1164 - would you agree

16     with this assessment?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And Mr. Karadzic also showed loyalty to you throughout his --

19     throughout your career, didn't he?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Indeed, after your resignation as prime minister - and for the

22     parties reference this is P1417, English page 81, B/C/S page 101 -

23     Mr. Karadzic stated:

24             "I take this opportunity to once again single out Mr. Kozic as

25     such example, model of hard working party member who subordinates all his

Page 36982

 1     intentions and plans to needs of state and people and party that

 2     appointed him.  I want to thank him for our co-operation, although I

 3     believe that we will continue co-operating in future because Mr. Kozic

 4     remains our cadre and he will remain in one of important positions in the

 5     future."

 6             This statement reflects Mr. Karadzic's loyalty to you, doesn't

 7     it?

 8        A.   I thank the president again.  Yes, that is correct.

 9        Q.   Now, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you mention the

10     reconciliatory tones used by Mr. Karadzic and Krajisnik in the

11     National Assembly.  Now, you, yourself, used language in the Bosnian Serb

12     Assembly which could not be described as reconciliatory, didn't you?

13        A.   Well, you would need to refer me to it or quote.  I don't think

14     that I did, no.

15        Q.   Let's look at one such example.

16             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please have P596.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Before going further, I forgot that you raised the

18     issue of some potential changes of a technical nature.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Kozic left the

20     possibility open, if we spotted something, but at that point he had not

21     spotted any errors yet.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let me ask you, what did you mean when you said that

23     you would make changes of a technical nature with respect to your

24     statement, Mr. Kozic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In paragraph 2 of my statement, two

Page 36983

 1     letters were dropped in line 4 from the bottom.  The sentence makes no

 2     sense.  The word "kao," "as" was left out.  Then in paragraph 4, this

 3     initiative was supported by all the deputies.  I would add the word

 4     "nearly everyone" because three of our colleagues remained in the Muslim

 5     assembly.  So this does not essentially have an effect on the whole, so

 6     we can just continue.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And in paragraph 1 says that your

 8     birthday is 8th of December, but Mr. Karadzic read -- said in his summary

 9     that your birthday was 8th of January.  Which is correct?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 8th of December is correct.

11     I did hear that but I did not react.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Back to you, Ms. McKenna.

13             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I believe I may have

14     misspoke, I'm looking for P956.

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Kozic, these are the minutes of the 16th Assembly of the

16     assembly of -- sorry, excuse me, 16th session of the Assembly of the

17     Serbian People in BH held on 12 May 1992.  You'll see that on page 1,

18     item 1 is the report on political conditions and the war in the

19     Serbian Republic of BH to be presented by Radovan Karadzic.  Now, during

20     Mr. Karadzic's presentation, he set out the strategic goals of the

21     Bosnian Serb people but I'd like to focus on what you said in this

22     regard.  And that's at English page 28 and B/C/S page 23.  And you

23     state -- regarding item 1, you said:

24             "The situation in the Herzegovina theatre of operations is now

25     good and the only objection we have is that too many weapons are being

Page 36984

 1     taken away."

 2             Then you continue:

 3             "And I have asked for the floor because of the following

 4     suggestion:  The enemy, Ustashas and Mujahedin must be defeated by

 5     whatever means are necessary and only after that can we negotiate."

 6             Now, you'll agree, Mr. Kozic, that references to Ustashas and

 7     Mujahedin do not suggest a tolerance on your own part for the Croats and

 8     Muslims, do they?

 9        A.   I don't see what else war would represent except suffering and

10     tragedy for everyone, and the Ustashas and the Mujahedin are our enemies

11     to this very day, so in the Balkans this is just general rhetoric.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes the -- we could not hear

13     the middle part of what the witness said.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] International law is still at war

15     today with the Mujahedin.

16             MS. McKENNA:

17        Q.   Mr. Kozic, the interpreter did not catch the entirety of your

18     response.  You stated:

19             "I don't see what else war would represent except suffering and

20     tragedy for everyone, and the Ustashas and the Mujahedin are our enemies

21     to this very day, so in the Balkans this is just general rhetoric."

22             Would you like to add anything to that response?

23        A.   My address at the assembly had to do with defeating the enemy.

24     This is the goal of every war.  Our enemies are referred to then as

25     Ustashas and Mujahedin because both of them were present in the

Page 36985

 1     Herzegovina front.  I still stand by what I said then because I believe

 2     that we needed to win the war in order to be able to negotiate.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And if we could look briefly at your acceptance

 4     speech on becoming prime minister, that's P1398, and that was -- while

 5     the document was coming up, I'll remind you this was the 44th session of

 6     the Republika Srpska Assembly on the 18th of August, 1994.  And could we

 7     please have page 11 of the English and page 7 of the B/C/S.  And you will

 8     see that you state that:

 9             "For more than two years, the Serbian people is engaged in a

10     superhuman struggle for its survival and freedom.  The liberation

11     struggle of the Serbian people and its heroic army have created and

12     developed their state and showed to the enemy and the entire world that

13     we shall not succumb to the Muslim Croatian plans to subjugate us and

14     destroy our are national being.  Great military victories have been

15     achieved, Republika Srpska covers almost all its ethnic areas in the

16     former Bosnia and Herzegovina."

17             So again, your own language, upon taking position as

18     prime minister, doesn't suggest a tolerance for Muslims or Croatians,

19     does it?

20        A.   You are wrong, Madam Prosecutor.  Muslims and Croats who were our

21     neighbours are not mentioned here.  The Balkans were our common living

22     space.  We lived before and during the war, ones next to the others.  I'm

23     talking about military formations here.  And there is no intolerance

24     towards the people, but rather towards extremist military units.

25        Q.   Let's turn to a different topic.  Could we please have article --

Page 36986

 1     or 65 ter number 17457.  Now, this, Mr. Kozic, is the document that you

 2     discuss in paragraph 12 of your statement, and it's the article from

 3     "Javnost" paper, which you state that the -- the document will be coming

 4     on your screen in a moment but I'm just reminding you that this is the

 5     article -- or informing you that we are about to discuss the article

 6     which you say discusses alleged weapons smuggling that was uncovered

 7     thanks to you.  And at paragraph 12 you state:

 8             "This is a journalistic explanation of the case and does not

 9     contradict the views of the SDS."

10             Now I'd like you to just look at the top of that article where it

11     states, "Information of the assembly of the eastern and old Herzegovina

12     municipalities."  Mr. Kozic, in fact, this is a reproduction of a

13     statement made by SDS Main Board member Bozidar Vucurevic isn't it?

14        A.   I don't remember the articles.  I do remember the events, but not

15     this.  But, of course, if you mean about what I said here, namely that

16     the official authority representatives should not be involved in dirty

17     games, this is still my opinion, or I share it.

18        Q.   We will come on to discuss the substance of the article, but

19     I just want to clarify its source.  Could we please have 65 ter

20     number 24920.  I'm afraid we don't have an English translation of this

21     article yet.  If we could go to page 2 of this document -- well,

22     actually, first, you'll note the cover page which states that this is a

23     statement by Mr. Vucurevic; isn't that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS McKENNA:  Could we have page 2 of -- ah, I see we in fact do

Page 36987

 1     have an English translation.  Could we please see page 2 of the document.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could we just read what

 3     this is?  The subject, is it a statement or is it an announcement, a

 4     statement issued for the press?  Because it's not a statement like a

 5     witness statement.  It's a statement given for the press, and it's nicely

 6     translated here as announcement, because if we don't clarify that now

 7     it's going to create a lot of confusion.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it created much confusion.  I think

 9     it's clear to the witness.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Now if you could just review this statement by Mr. Vucurevic, can

12     you confirm that this is the statement that was reproduced in the

13     "Javnost" paper?

14        A.   I cannot.  The documents and the dates have to be compared.  It

15     is impossible to conclude just by looking at the screen to make a direct

16     link.  So I cannot from this point in time confirm this with any

17     certainty.

18             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6284, Your Honours.

22             MS. McKENNA:  Now, turning to the substance of the statement,

23     could we please see 65 ter number 11543.

24        Q.   Now, this you'll see, Mr. Kozic, is a report of the

25     Ministry of the Interior, Sarajevo, on the uncovering of smuggling of

Page 36988

 1     weapons into Bosnia-Herzegovina, and -- but as it states in the first

 2     line it relates to events which occurred during the night of

 3     24th May 1991 in the Bileca municipality.  I'd like to focus on the

 4     second paragraph, please, where it states:

 5             "At around 440 hours, a police patrol signalled a Javasta [phoen]

 6     freight vehicle which was coming from the direction of Niksic to stop.

 7     Since the vehicle did not stop at the patrol's signal, a police patrol

 8     was notified and it stopped and inspected the vehicle."

 9             If we could perhaps move to the second page in the English and if

10     you review the next paragraph, it states that:

11             "On checking the identity of the passengers, it was established

12     that the vehicle was driven by its owner, Milutin Popovic, and that

13     Dusan Kozic and Momcilo Tohojl were in the vehicle with him."

14             If we can focus on the fourth paragraph of the document, it

15     states:

16             "While the driving documents were being checked, Dusan Kozic came

17     out of the vehicle and presented himself as a member of the parliament of

18     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He showed an MP's

19     identity card and requested that immunity measures be applied towards

20     him."

21             Now, Mr. Kozic, you were released by the Bileca police

22     immediately while the other people in the vehicle were taken into

23     custody; isn't that correct?

24        A.   Neither were they taken into custody, nor was I released.  We

25     just came in front of the police station and when I noted that the police

Page 36989

 1     was multi-party or rather multi-ethnic, that there were both Serbs and

 2     Muslims among the policemen, I then left it to the police to do their

 3     job.  I was afraid of abuse, namely that the policemen might be

 4     uni-ethnic and that the weapons would be sent on to Stolac and Mostar

 5     because the party position was that the arms were to be sent to the

 6     barracks.  We had no need to do anything special.  The arms were to be

 7     sent to the barracks.  The police did their job.  They conducted the

 8     on-site investigation.  The weapons were handed over at the barracks in

 9     Bileca and the proceedings were completed before a court and it is now an

10     adjudicated fact; namely, the judgement was passed.  As I told you, both

11     the people and the weapons ended up in the barracks of the

12     Yugoslav People's Army in Bileca.

13        Q.   Well, let's see what this contemporaneous document states about

14     what happened on that evening.  If we could focus on the next paragraph,

15     which is the fifth paragraph, it states:

16             "After establishing the identity of the persons, the patrol

17     inspected the cargo platform and established that there were crates under

18     the tarpaulin in which Kozic claimed wood was being transported.  Since

19     on Dusan Kozic's orders the driver refused to show the documentation and

20     allow an inspection of the vehicle and cargo, the vehicle and persons in

21     it were taken to Bileca public security station.  And it notes that they

22     found eight crates in the cargo section, each containing ten Russian-made

23     automatic rifles and 16.800 bullets for these weapons."

24             Mr. Kozic, rather than uncovering the smuggling, you were taking

25     an active part in it, weren't you?

Page 36990

 1        A.   I did not take an active part in it and I did not uncover it, but

 2     the police uncovered it which I said loud and clear.  And the first part

 3     of what you said was meant to be a joke.  I said wood because I didn't

 4     know the ethnicity, the ethnic composition of the patrol which stopped

 5     us.  I requested we should go in front of the public security station,

 6     when I saw there were both Serbs and Muslims there, then I left it to

 7     them to do their work.  I didn't even want to attend and stand there next

 8     to them.

 9             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6285, Your Honours.

13             MS. McKENNA:  I would just like to show the witness one more

14     document on this topic, if I may have your indulgence, before the break.

15     Could we please have 65 ter number 11544.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Kozic, this is an article reporting a speech by

17     Mr. Karadzic at an SDS press conference at which he commented on the

18     transport of weapons from Bileca.  And in the second paragraph, he's

19     reported as saying that SDS claims that the weapons that were transported

20     through Bileca were trophy weapons and it was only coincidence that the

21     SDS deputy in the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly, Dusan Kozic, found himself

22     there.

23             Now, Mr. Kozic, you'll agree that 80 automatic rifles and over --

24     almost 17.000 bullets couldn't be considered trophy weapons.

25        A.   I have to tell you that neither then nor now did I know what was

Page 36991

 1     under the tarpaulin.  And Dr. Karadzic was quite correct, I was there

 2     accidentally because the Serbian personnel from the MUP had the same

 3     information as the Muslim personnel and they reported that something was

 4     being smuggled.  And you are now taking the whole event out of the

 5     context in which it took place.  This took place at the moment when

 6     50 trucks carrying weapons had entered Croatia from Hungary which was

 7     reported around the clock in the immediate in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the

 8     time, and there was a stampede among the people.  The wounds from the

 9     Second World War were opened again because there is not a single family

10     there from which someone did not perish in Jasenovac or in one of the

11     pits.  We could not convince them that it was not necessary to go and try

12     to find weapons but that they should rather respond to mobilisation

13     call-ups in an orderly manner, or if they were not called up that they

14     would report themselves to the staffs of Territorial Defence.  And you

15     have to hear this to the end because this moment is decisive for what I

16     have to say.

17             The SDS was building its -- the safety and security of the

18     Yugoslav People's Army as the only legitimate military force.  I learned

19     about this event, and I went as the general manager of Soko, the socially

20     owned enterprise, in front of these men.  My official car with my driver

21     drove in front of the truck.  I didn't want them to be manipulated.  And

22     I'm telling you people were left to their own devices and trying to

23     obtain any weapons they could find, those left from the Second World War

24     or hunting rifles or they would buy it.  It was a sort of psychosis that

25     was widespread just before the outbreak of the war.  And that was the

Page 36992

 1     context in which this event took place, and this, what I have just told,

 2     you is the correct interpretation.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  I'd like to tender this document, please.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6286, Your Honours.

 7             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I note the time.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will have a break for 45 minutes and resume

 9     at 1.20.

10                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. McKenna.

13             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Kozic, I'd like to look at the letters that you refer to in

15     paragraph 21 of your statement and which you describe in that paragraph

16     as:

17             "Documents which talk about my efforts as prime minister to

18     maintain legality in the work and make it impossible for the army or the

19     police to abuse its position of being an armed force."

20             MS McKENNA:  Could we please see 1D25783.  I'm afraid I don't

21     have the exhibit number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3368, Your Honours.

23             MS. McKENNA:

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Kozic, this is a letter from you to the

25     Ministry of the Interior dated 15 February 1995.  Stating that according

Page 36993

 1     to the VRS, on 13 February 1995, members of the Bijeljina public security

 2     centre confiscated 14 tonnes of fuel intended for the

 3     35th Logistics Battalion of the VRS, and you in this document are

 4     ordering that this fuel be returned.  And the second document that -- to

 5     which you refer in paragraph 21 is a fax of the same date, following up

 6     on this issue.

 7             Now, as prime minister, you were involved in the procurement of

 8     logistical support for the VRS, weren't you?

 9        A.   Not only to the VRS but the VRS and the people in the republic as

10     a whole.  The main duty of the government was to supply the materiel for

11     successful waging of war and also for the survival of the people under

12     wartime conditions.

13        Q.   And this included during the period in which, according to your

14     statement, there was a lack of co-operation between the military and the

15     civilian sectors, didn't it?

16        A.   Do you have in mind this letter or -- I haven't really understood

17     you well.

18             [No interpretation]

19        Q.   Sorry, I didn't receive interpretation of the witness's last --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

21     statement.

22             MS. McKENNA:

23        Q.   Could you please repeat your last statement, Mr. Kozic?

24        A.   I asked you to repeat the question to me, and whether you had in

25     mind the document which I have on the screen in front of me, or are you

Page 36994

 1     asking me a completely new question.

 2        Q.   My question is simply whether you were involved in the

 3     procurement of logistical support for the VRS in the period during which

 4     you state that there was a lack of co-operation between the civilian and

 5     military authorities, that is summer and autumn of 1995.

 6        A.   I have clearly answered that question, that the main task of the

 7     government was to create all material and technical conditions for the

 8     people to survive in its territory and also for the waging of the war.

 9     So it wasn't only my task but the task of the government as a whole.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to look at some meetings that you held in

11     connection with procurement for the VRS and other forces.

12             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please have P1473.  And I'd like to see

13     page 143 in the English and 145 in the B/C/S.  Sorry, I appear to have

14     the incorrect reference.  If we could have -- move to page 306 of the

15     English and page 310 of the B/C/S; and that's P1473.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Kozic, this is a meeting with General Mladic and other

17     VRS officers on the 17th of August, 1995, to discuss procurement.  And

18     again, according to your statement, this is a period in which there was a

19     lack of co-operation or no co-operation between the military and the

20     civilian sectors.  And you'll see, if we move to -- at the bottom of that

21     page in the English and continuing over you state that 100 rifles and 500

22     shells have been procured in Bulgaria.  You discuss who paid for them and

23     you discuss providing ammunition, money for ammunition, setting up a team

24     to procure ammunition, and the procurement of ammunition from the -- or

25     for the Herzegovina Corps from the Trebinje hydroelectric power station.

Page 36995

 1     So this evidence, doesn't it, very practical co-operation between the

 2     military and the civilian authorities in August 1995?

 3        A.   Well, no, Madam Prosecutor.  I stand by my statement that it was

 4     forced, unwilling, and depended on the situation on the ground.  Of

 5     course, it did not imply a complete lack of communication.  Everyone was

 6     doing his own job.  It was difficult for us.  We tried the best we could

 7     and the whole arrangement was made at the time when I had taken up my

 8     appointment in August 1995 [as interpreted] and Serbia had already

 9     imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska and we had already been under

10     sanctions imposed by the European union, that is to say the rest of the

11     world, and such an atmosphere necessitated that all factors in Republika

12     Srpska make the maximum effort if we were to survive.  So I don't really

13     see what you want to achieve with this question.  Of course, we were

14     doing this.  The ministry was doing its job.  It had to supply the army

15     and the people with what was needed.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Just to clarify the transcript or the recorded that

17     you took up your appointment in August 1995.  It's correct that you took

18     up your appointment in August of --

19        A.   1994.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   On the same topic, if we look at a similar meeting two days

23     later, at page 308 of the English and 312 of the B/C/S, here, this is on

24     the 19th of August, 1995, and here you're informing General Mladic that a

25     group from Bulgaria will come and quote a price for the ammunition.  And

Page 36996

 1     the group is coming with Branislav Lainovic, via whom the FRY is

 2     procuring ammunition.  Now, Mr. Lainovic, to whom you referred at this

 3     meeting, was a leader of the Serbian Guard paramilitary unit and was also

 4     known for his activities as a participant in the illegal arms trade, the

 5     drugs trade and other criminal activities; isn't that correct?

 6        A.   I don't know, and I think not.  Please show me the translation so

 7     I can see the whole text and then I try -- I can try to remember the

 8     whole event because I don't see the version in Serbian.

 9        Q.   The question -- the version in Serbian should be before you.  My

10     question is whether Mr. Lainovic to whom you refer --

11        A.   I don't have the Serbian version.  Oh, here it is.  Could we

12     scroll down on the Serbian version so I can see the end of the sentence.

13        Q.   Mr. Kozic, perhaps my question was unclear.  My question is

14     simply, in this document, you refer to Mr. Branislav Lainovic.  My

15     question for you is:  This man was a known paramilitary and participant

16     in the illegal arms trade, drugs trade and other criminal activities;

17     isn't that correct?

18        A.   I'm not familiar with his CV.  And secondly, he didn't even come

19     there.  I don't even remember this meeting.  We never had any dealings

20     with Mr. Lainovic, but we did with Bulgaria.  Mr. Lainovic never came to

21     Pale, nor did we meet to discuss this topic.  And we did have some

22     arrangements with Bulgaria.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at a document that relates to some more

24     direct meetings that you had, and that's P6210.

25             So, Mr. Kozic, this is an Eastern Bosnia Corps security

Page 36997

 1     department document dated the 20th of September, 1995.  It's addressed to

 2     General Tolimir.  And it states:

 3             "In the evening hours of 19 September 1995, at a working meeting

 4     of the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly which was attended, among others, by

 5     Mr. Frenki and Bozovic, from the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic

 6     of Serbia, and Zeljko Raznatovic, aka Arkan, on one side, and Mr. Kozic,

 7     the prime minister of the Republika Srpska, Mr. Boro Bozic, and organs of

 8     the authorities of the Bijeljina region on the other.  It was allegedly

 9     agreed that Arkan and his units should take and liberate Teocak.  This

10     operation to liberate Teocak would be financed and paid for by the

11     republican government, Kozic and Bozic, and it would cost 3 million

12     Deutschmarks."

13             Now, do you recall attending this meeting in September 1995?

14        A.   The meeting never took place.  I only know about Frenki from the

15     media, and the same goes for Mr. Bozovic.  I only met Zeljko Raznatovic

16     once in passing in Banja Luka.  I don't remember the date.  The meeting

17     didn't take place.  I don't know these people, nor was this matter

18     discussed.  There wasn't even any intention to discuss it.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kozic.  I'd like to move on to a completely

20     different topic.  In paragraph 17 of your statement, you discuss P3115,

21     which are the minutes of a government session held on the

22     24th of August, 1994.  And in connection with that session, you state, in

23     its work the government was indeed independent.  President Karadzic

24     attended the government session without participating in its work, only a

25     few times, and out of respect.

Page 36998

 1             I'd like to read to you a statement that Mr. Karadzic made in

 2     connection with your predecessor, Mr. Lukic, and he made this statement

 3     at the 34th Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly in August and

 4     September 1993 - and for the parties' reference, this is P1379, English

 5     page 255, B/C/S page 289 - and Mr. Karadzic stated:

 6             "Believe me, the government is mine.  I am responsible for its

 7     functioning.  I appoint and propose the government mandator.  I have a

 8     brilliant relationship with Vlado Lukic.  We are often together.  He

 9     often comes to my cabinet.  But I do not see the government.  I attended

10     government sessions twice.  I am even entitled to be in the lead of the

11     government to schedule sessions."

12             So Mr. Karadzic is saying that while he doesn't attend many

13     government sessions, he keeps a tight control of the government through

14     Mr. Lukic.  Was that your experience?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Well, let's look at another statement by Mr. Karadzic, and this

17     is 65 ter number 45416.

18             And this, Mr. Kozic, is a short video from a talk show called

19     "Open Programme" which is on Banja Luka TV and Mr. Karadzic is a guest on

20     the show.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Do we know the date of this?

22             MS. McKENNA:  We don't have a specific date for this, but it is

23     clear from the context of the document that it is during the war.

24             If I may have the Court's indulgence for a moment, we are just

25     having some technical issues.

Page 36999

 1             I'll come back to the video, my apologies.

 2        Q.   Moving to an entirely different --

 3        A.   I have the text.

 4        Q.   Perhaps we can simply look at the text of the video.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MS. McKENNA:

 7        Q.   So in this, Mr. Karadzic states:

 8             "At this moment we have a combination of a parliamentary and a

 9     presidential system.  I have plenty of authority, even more than

10     I exploit, and the parliament also has a lot of authority and that is

11     where some unity has been achieved.  Now I must tend to the government

12     more because that is what the constitution allows me to do and requires

13     me to do so that the unity of executive power is realised because we must

14     control the executive power on a daily basis.  We have to keep an eye on

15     it daily."

16             So in this interview, Mr. Karadzic speaks of controlling the

17     executive power on a daily basis.  This, again, suggests a tight control

18     of the government by Mr. Karadzic, doesn't it?

19        A.   No.  You are relying too much on media statements or articles

20     from the papers, and taking that from the context in which these

21     statements were made and with which intention, and that will lead you to

22     wrong conclusions because some statements had a completely different

23     purpose, to mobilise the people.  I remember the debates during Lukic's

24     government - Lukic was a great man by the way - that the government was

25     rather static, and it wasn't up to the demands of the time.  They were

Page 37000

 1     being too lenient.  That's what I suppose the president meant.  And when

 2     he says that he demanded fast, expeditious work, that was at a time of

 3     twofold sanctions.  And now I can say - and now first apologise to

 4     Mr. Karadzic - something that few people in the RS know.  On the 60th day

 5     of my term in office, I totally cut off the cash flow toward the

 6     president of the republic and replaced each and every dime under

 7     government control --

 8        Q.   I'm afraid I'm going to interrupt you.  Again I'm going to remind

 9     you of what I asked you at the start of your testimony which is to focus

10     very specifically on the questions that I asked you and give answers that

11     are as concise as possible.

12             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender --

13        A.   All right.  So the answer to this question would be this

14     statement was given for different motives.  There was close co-operation,

15     but certainly not under absolute control as the statement reads, at least

16     not during my term in office.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we think it can be admitted for context, no

19     objection.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will receive it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6287, Your Honours.

22             MS. McKENNA:

23        Q.   Now, again moving to a different topic, Mr. Kozic.  At

24     paragraph 24 of your statement, you state that you generally knew that

25     operations were taking place to neutralise the Muslim army in the

Page 37001

 1     enclaves and that the government in Pale only had general information

 2     about fighting in Srebrenica.  And you also state that the VRS demanded

 3     that the municipal secretariats for National Defence mobilise all their

 4     available means of transport in order to evacuate the Muslim civilians

 5     from Srebrenica.  I'd just like to clarify on -- your evidence on this

 6     point.  It's correct, isn't it, that the civilian authorities worked

 7     together with the military authorities in connection with the Srebrenica

 8     operation?

 9        A.   This is a -- there is an innuendo in your question, and it's

10     wrong.  We received information that many civilians had been gathered at

11     Potocari and we used the resources of the surrounding municipalities and

12     the economic operators to provide a means of transport to take the

13     civilians elsewhere, but at the time we didn't even know where they would

14     go or where they had come from.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, we are going to look at some documents which the

16     civilian authorities received in connection with the operation.

17             MS. McKENNA:  Now, if we could have P4528, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  By "operation" what did you mean, Ms. McKenna?

19             MS. McKENNA:  It is the witness -- by operation I mean the

20     take-over operation and the evacuation of civilians.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, please proceed.

22             MS. McKENNA:

23        Q.   So, Mr. Kozic, this is a Ministry of Defence order dated the

24     12th of July, 1995, and it states, pursuant to a request by the

25     Main Staff of the VRS dated 12th of July regarding the mobilisation of

Page 37002

 1     buses, and it's immediately mobilise all available buses from the

 2     municipalities of Zvornik, Visegrad, Vlasenica, Milici and Bratunac.

 3             Now, this document shows that the Ministry of Defence is

 4     mobilising buses at the request rather than the demand of the VRS, as you

 5     characterised it in your statement; isn't that correct?

 6        A.   But I believe that my statement reads just the same, that the

 7     secretariat of the defence --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat and speak

 9     slowly.

10             MS. McKENNA:

11        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Kozic.  Could you please repeat

12     your response and speak a little slower for the interpreters?

13        A.   I don't see a difference between the document on the screen and

14     my statement which reads that the VRS requested from the municipal

15     secretariat of national defence the mobilisation of all available means

16     to evacuate the Muslim civilians who had expressed a wish to go to Tuzla,

17     and that's what my report says.

18        Q.   Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Kozic.  It appears to be a

19     translation issue with the English version of your statement.

20             But staying with the issue of information that was available to

21     the civilian authorities, could we please see P4935.

22             Now, Mr. Kozic, this is a dispatch from the Zvornik public

23     security centre to the Republika Srpska office of the minister of the

24     interior, and it's dated 12th of July, 1995, and it provides detailed

25     information in relation to the Hotel Fontana meeting and the action being

Page 37003

 1     taken following it.  I'd just like focus on paragraph 5 or conclusion

 2     number 5, which is, I believe, on the next page in the B/C/S.  And it

 3     states:

 4             "Acting upon the President Karadzic's order which was conveyed to

 5     us today over the phone, the 2nd Company of the Zvornik special separate

 6     police units shall be dispatched to Srebrenica with a task to secure all

 7     facilities of vital importance in the town at all costs and protect them

 8     from looting and misappropriation."

 9             And it states:

10             "A platoon of this company will lie in ambush at Ravni Buljim

11     since the Muslim groups were spotted fleeing along this axis."

12             And just together with this document, I'd like us to look at

13     P4942.  Again, this is a document dated the next day, it's

14     13th July 1995, and it's from the Zvornik public security centre to --

15     reporting to the minister of the interior, and it states:

16             "At the meeting with General Mladic this morning, we were

17     informed that the VRS was continuing operations towards Zepa and leaving

18     all other work to the MUP as follows."

19             And there are a number of bullet points:  The first is evacuation

20     of the remaining civilian population from Srebrenica to Kladanj, about

21     15.000 by bus.  Second, killing of about 8.000 Muslim soldiers whom we

22     blocked in the woods near Konjevic Polje.  Fighting is going on.  This

23     job is being done solely by MUP units, and the document continues.  Now

24     my question for you, Mr. Kozic, is:  You agree that these documents are

25     providing the minister of the interior, a member of your government, with

Page 37004

 1     very specific information in relation to what was going on in Srebrenica?

 2        A.   No.  I don't agree.  Please take into consideration that on the

 3     11th I got my third child and I was often absent from the 11th of July

 4     until the end of my term in office.  You are saying that this is

 5     co-ordinated but that's wrong.  Information came in from various sides

 6     and the letter that we saw a short while ago, the one sent to the

 7     president, the government urgently replied and sent out a commission to

 8     make a snapshot of the situation so that we be informed of the state of

 9     affairs.

10             All reports depending on their source had different connotations

11     so we didn't have insight into the real situation.  That is why we

12     decided first to take care of the civilians, and to make possible regular

13     life in Srebrenica by sending police there and we also sent a government

14     delegation there to -- on a fact-finding mission.  And we wanted to take

15     care of the civilians.  Certainly there wasn't -- there were no Serbs

16     there.  So we -- I wanted to take care of the Muslim civilians to see

17     where they were from, Srebrenica, Bratunac, where they wanted to go.  So

18     what you see on the screen is the product of the personal knowledge of

19     the author, because we all more or less got information from the media.

20     What made our life difficult for three years and killed thousands of

21     people now was resolved, liberated, and that is the content of this

22     dispatch, and please don't take it out of its temporal context.

23        Q.   Just to --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an intervention in the

25     transcript, line 9, page 79, this witness said "sending a commissioner

Page 37005

 1     and the police," the "commissioner" was omitted.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Do you confirm that, Mr. Kozic?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  I first said a

 4     commissioner and police, and a government delegation to write a report to

 5     create normal conditions for the protection of civilians and property.

 6             MS. McKENNA:

 7        Q.   And just to clarify, Mr. Kozic, in your statement it states that

 8     your third child was born on the 18th of July and then in the

 9     transcript -- then today you said that your child was born --

10        A.   No, it was on the 11th.

11        Q.   On the 11th, thank you.  There is a number of documents in

12     evidence which we don't have time to go through but which show that

13     Mr. Karadzic was also receiving much information during or as the

14     Srebrenica operations progressed - and for the parties' reference they

15     are P2276, P4450, P5 -- excuse me, 3054 and P4463 - now, Mr. Karadzic,

16     the minister of the interior and the minister of the defence were all

17     members of the Supreme Command.  You were also a member of the

18     Supreme Command, weren't you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And yet your position is that, as prime minister, you had only

21     very general information about what was going on in Srebrenica?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You also state in paragraph 24 of your statement that the Muslim

24     civilians asked on their own to be transported to Tuzla, and you talk

25     about the fact that there was no prepared evacuation plan.  You didn't

Page 37006

 1     know whether the civilians would wish to go or where they would go.

 2     Could we please see P2996.  This is a dispatch of 12th of July, 1995,

 3     from the chief of the Zvornik public security centre, again to the office

 4     of the minister of the interior.  And it states, at number 5:

 5             "A meeting will begin at 1000 hours with representatives of

 6     UNPROFOR and the International Red Cross and a Muslim representative from

 7     Srebrenica at which an agreement will be reached on the evacuation of the

 8     civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj, a hundred trucks have been

 9     provided for transport."

10             Now, Mr. Kozic, the meeting being referred to in this document

11     was the third Hotel Fontana meeting between Mladic and representatives

12     from Srebrenica's Muslim population following which the Muslim population

13     was evacuated.  So before that meeting took place, 100 trucks had already

14     been provided to transport the civilian population out, in anticipation

15     of the evacuation of the civilian population.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, could we zoom up para 5 and ask the

17     witness to read out the sentence?

18             MS. McKENNA:  Certainly.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You may collapse the English for the moment.  Could

20     you read the point 5.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "At 10.00, a meeting with UNPROFOR

22     and ICRC representatives begins and with the Muslim representative from

23     Srebrenica, where agreement will be reached about the evacuation of all

24     civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj, so that they may have more

25     problems there.  One hundred trucks for transportation have already been

Page 37007

 1     made available."

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I remember we had a discussion about -- as to the

 3     translation of this sentence, whether the meeting has begun or will

 4     begin.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I'm afraid I wasn't aware of that

 6     discussion, but thank you for bringing that to my attention.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I'll leave it at that.  Please continue.

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   Well, it appears on the basis of that translation that the

10     meeting took place but -- excuse me, prior to the meeting taking place,

11     100 trucks had already been provided to evacuate civilians from

12     Srebrenica.  So my question for you is:  This doesn't suggest that the

13     civilians had any option to remain, does it?

14        A.   It does not suggest what you're saying.  You're persistently

15     trying to get an affirmative answer to your assertion, whereas all the

16     facts indicate that it is just the way he says, that there is confusion

17     in the field, that some decisions must be made within half an hour by

18     people who are there, officials there, and everything that I have said is

19     proved by the documents that you are showing, the documentation, the

20     sending of a team, the sending of the police to prevent robberies

21     quickly, and so the responsible people had to reach decisions quickly in

22     order to guard the civilians.  And this is what I'm saying, that in these

23     conversations we then found out what their wishes were.  We did not make

24     these up.  It's a two-day whirl wind where all these decisions were

25     brought, communication was conducted via telephones, Motorolas, and all

Page 37008

 1     of that, so I don't know why you would wish your conclusion to be the way

 2     it is, whereas everything in the documents indicates that it's quite the

 3     opposite.  There was chaos and the civilian authorities are trying to

 4     introduce order as soon as possible because the care that I was talking

 5     about was not directed at the Serbs because all the Serbs were already

 6     dead by then and we could have lit candles for them, but it was directed

 7     at the Muslim civilians.

 8        Q.   Well, let's look at 65 ter 13758 on that topic.  And I'm afraid

 9     we don't have a translation of this in your language but if I can explain

10     that it is an UNPROFOR code cable from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan dated

11     14th of July 1995.  If we look at the second page, point 6, it states,

12     UNMO's report that they have been unable to sight any Bosnian civilians

13     in Srebrenica.  BSA troops have been sighted cleaning out the town by

14     removing livestock, vehicles, household goods and other valuables.

15     Karadzic has installed a civilian administrator in Srebrenica and the

16     first Serb families have begun to move into the town.

17             So, Mr. Kozic, it's clear from this document that contrary to

18     your evidence, by the 14th of July, 1995, there were no Muslims left in

19     Srebrenica but, rather, it was starting to be repopulated by Serbs.

20     I should say no Muslims left in Srebrenica town.

21        A.   I don't believe in the authenticity of this letter.  Perhaps this

22     was written, but as I say, it does not reflect the truth in the field, on

23     the ground.  In three days, while the army was moving, only Serbs who

24     survived and wanted to return could come in to see if their house was

25     still intact.  But as I say, I don't know.  Until the 14th I was in

Page 37009

 1     Herzegovina and in the hospital in Podgorica, so I think that this

 2     passage does not reflect the actual state of affairs.  There was nobody

 3     who could have returned there anyway.  The government ordered that the

 4     town be cleansed in order to prevent disease from livestock and anything

 5     else that could harm the daily life of civilians, and in the documents,

 6     I looked at it, you have the report of a working group that confirms

 7     this, that the authorities were clearing the terrain, and preparing the

 8     town for civilian life to resume.

 9             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, may I tender this document?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6288, Your Honours.

14             MS. McKENNA:

15        Q.   Mr. Kozic on the same date, or on the 13th of July, 1995, the UN

16     commissioners for refugees, Sadako Ogata, was reported as saying that the

17     wholesale removal of Srebrenica's residents was one of the most blatant

18     examples of ethnically motivated forced displacement we have seen yet in

19     war.  Is it your position that the entirety of Srebrenica's Muslim

20     position -- or population freely chose to leave the enclave?

21        A.   Of course.  They were probably frightened, tired, because of the

22     three-year war, exhausted.  And it was probably their wish to leave, and

23     nobody asked them or made them leave.  We expected them all to stay and

24     we even expected people from Bratunac and the nearby municipalities to

25     return, who had fled to Srebrenica before the war.  But it's probably a

Page 37010

 1     result of fear and the wartime psychosis that they wanted to go to a safe

 2     place.  So that report by Mrs. Sadako Ogata is not quite sincere.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Your Honours --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. McKenna as regards the date when the witness's

 5     third child was born, I checked, compared the two statements, and in the

 6     B/C/S it's noted as 11th of July.

 7             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you for that clarification.  Yet again it's a

 8     translation issue obviously.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. McKenna.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I'm aware that I've reached the end of

11     my allocated time.  I just have one brief topic to deal with, if I may

12     have your indulgence.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please go ahead.

14             MS. McKENNA:

15        Q.   Mr. Kozic, again in your statement you spoke of the civilian

16     authorities conflict with the military authorities and the tension

17     between those authorities but the tensions that were heightened after the

18     fall of the RSK and the loss of territories in western Republika Srpska.

19     Now, this loss of territory was what led you to you tendering your

20     resignation in October 1995; isn't that correct?

21        A.   No.  The main reason was the health problems of my child, that

22     was number 1.  Number 2, my colleagues from the Krajina asked that one of

23     the three leading figures of Republika Srpska comes from the Krajina

24     because the bulk of the population in the western part of

25     Republika Srpska was that, and I believe that the request was legitimate,

Page 37011

 1     and I was already burdened by my family problems, and those two factors

 2     resulted in my resignation.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kozic, at the 54th Session of the Assembly, on the 15th and

 4     16th of October 1995, there was extensive discussion of the loss of

 5     territory in western Republika Srpska, and who was to blame for it, and

 6     there were calls for the dismissal of certain VRS generals and also calls

 7     for your resignation.

 8             And Mr. Karadzic read out your statement, your letter of

 9     resignation which stated that due to a very complex situation in the

10     western part of Republika Srpska, for matters of principle and political

11     reasons, I hereby resign from the office of prime minister, and then you

12     go on to make the point that you hope that they will nominate a man from

13     the endangered areas of the western part of Republika Srpska and thereby

14     strengthen their political position.

15             So we agree that there was significant disagreement between the

16     civilian and military authorities in relation to the events in the RSK

17     and western Republika Srpska, but I would just like to focus finally on

18     Mr. Karadzic's attitude to the Srebrenica operation as stated before the

19     assembly, and in that same session where you resigned, which is P1415 for

20     the parties' reference -- well, firstly, you'll be aware as a member of

21     the Supreme Command that the take-over of Srebrenica was carried out

22     pursuant to Directive 7 which was issued by Mr. Karadzic as

23     Supreme Commander on the 8th of March, 1995.  That's correct, isn't it?

24        A.   I would need to look at the directive and read it first in order

25     to be able to answer you.

Page 37012

 1        Q.   Well, let's see what Mr. Karadzic said at that session.  He

 2     stated, at -- could we please see P1415.  And could we have page 86 of

 3     the English and page 111 of the B/C/S.  Just while the document is coming

 4     up, Mr. Kozic, at that session, at page 84 of the English and page 108 of

 5     the B/C/S, Mr. Karadzic says, "I have examined, approved and signed seven

 6     directives," and then we'll come on to what he says specifically about

 7     Srebrenica.  This is page 86 of the English, yes.  So halfway down that

 8     page, Mr. Karadzic states:

 9             "As the Supreme Commander I stood behind the plan for Zepa and

10     Srebrenica, mainly for Srebrenica.  Zepa was implied."

11             And he continues:

12             "I personally supervised the plan, without the knowledge of the

13     General Staff, not even hiding anything, but I happened to run into

14     General Krstic and advised him to go straight into town and pronounce the

15     fall of Srebrenica and later we will chase the Turks around the woods.

16     I approved an immediate task and a radical task, and I don't regret it."

17             So, Mr. Kozic, at a time when the army's operations were coming

18     up against fierce criticism, when the entire subject of that assembly was

19     criticism of the army and what -- and its responsibility for its various

20     operations, Mr. Karadzic took full responsibility for and staunchly

21     defended the Srebrenica operation; isn't that correct?

22        A.   Could you please tell me the date of that assembly session,

23     please?

24        Q.   That assembly session was the 15th and 16th of October, 1995, and

25     you may recall it as the session where there was a heated debate about

Page 37013

 1     the fall of the Krajina --

 2        A.   And where was the session, in Banja Luka or in Sanski Most?

 3        Q.   I'm afraid I don't have that information readily to hand.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It says held in Banski Dvori in Banja Luka.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall those words and

 7     that quote taken out of context.  There were two shocks that we

 8     experienced.  One was the fall of Srebrenica and the other the fall of

 9     the Krajina.  So that the assembly dealt with those two major events in

10     our history, and I really cannot state any particulars because I

11     cannot -- I cannot remember anything.

12             MS. McKENNA:

13        Q.   Well --

14        A.   I cannot recall all the addresses and discussions by my

15     colleagues.

16        Q.   Perhaps it will assist your recollection if I tell you that at

17     the 52nd Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly, on the

18     6th of August, 1995, so after Operation Storm, Mr. Karadzic said, again

19     on the topic of Srebrenica - and this is at page 111 and page -- of the

20     English and page 94 of the B/C/S:

21             "The time had come, and I signed Directive 7, to capture Teocak,

22     Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde.  The directive was signed and we embarked

23     upon it."

24             He states:

25             "I was in favour of all the decisions we made and I support them

Page 37014

 1     all.  All the decisions are recorded in the Supreme Command.  I ordered

 2     in verbal and written form to attack Zepa and Srebrenica.  There will be

 3     the right time to take Gorazde just as there was the right time to

 4     conquer Srebrenica."

 5             So once again, Mr. Kozic, I put it to you that Mr. Karadzic's

 6     position was to accept full responsibility for the military operation in

 7     Srebrenica.

 8        A.   That is your assertion, but it is not mine.  Simply speaking,

 9     I do not recall those words, nor can I give any comment on that, because

10     I say again it was a confusing time where we had to reach decisions

11     within a second that would be acceptable for the republic, for the

12     people, for the prevailing situation around us.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kozic.  And thank you for answering my questions.

14             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. McKenna.

17             Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies, and I would

19     like to start immediately, if I may.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kozic, are you able to tell us where the

23     president -- the prime minister was from who replaced you?

24        A.   From Banja Luka.

25        Q.   And is that what you wanted to achieve with your resignation?

Page 37015

 1        A.   For a colleague of ours from the Krajina to succeed me, yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You were shown a telegram by Ambassador Akashi of the

 3     14th of July, about how there were no Muslim civilians in Srebrenica.  On

 4     the 11th of July, did we know that the civilians from Srebrenica would

 5     leave, Muslim civilians from Srebrenica?  Did we know that on the

 6     11th of July?  Did any of us know that?

 7        A.   Well, this 11th of July is problematic for my personal reasons

 8     because I was in Podgorica for the surgery of my child then.  So I can

 9     convey just comments which I learned of a few days later.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And did any of your associates in the government seek

11     on the 8th, 9th, 10th or 11th of July -- ask for buses and trucks for the

12     evacuation of civilians?

13        A.   Until the 11th, till 10.00 when this news arrived, and while

14     I was still at Pale, this was not a request that came.

15        Q.   And then on the 12th, did the police from Zvornik inform that

16     there would be a meeting at 10.00 at which a decision would be taken on

17     where the civilians would decide to go?  Were you --

18             MS. McKENNA:  If I -- I object to the leading nature of this

19     question.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the document was shown, and it

21     was read that a meeting would be held at 10.00.  And my question is not

22     about that document, but it's about whether it was the first meeting and

23     whether there were any other meetings before that with the Muslim side.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time, it's quite

25     certain that I wasn't in Pale, so I cannot convey the comments that I got

Page 37016

 1     later from my colleagues with any certainty.  Once I returned from

 2     Podgorica, these contacts were, and I don't know the exact date, were

 3     with representatives.  I saw that broadcast on television.  There were

 4     two or three prominent householders, hosts, from Srebrenica, but before

 5     that there was nothing.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Well, this Trial Chamber saw that there were two

 8     meetings prior to that on the 11th, at 8.00 in the -- at 11.00 and then

 9     at 8.00 in the evening.  And for the transcript, Ms. McKenna describes

10     those activities as an operation, even though the original order refers

11     to that as combat actions and not as an operation, and this is important

12     because the operation has to -- an operation has to be carried out by

13     more than one corps.  Well, you were asked today whether you as a member

14     of the Supreme Command were saying that you didn't know something.  Can

15     you tell us whether, in July 1995, there were any meetings held of the

16     Supreme Command?

17        A.   I cannot remember that without any reminders on paper.  This is

18     for the mentioned family reasons.

19        Q.   But you don't know that there were any and you did not attend

20     any; is that correct?

21        A.   Well, I don't know.  That whole July and August period to me was

22     a very confused time.

23        Q.   The question was whether you attended any meeting in the month of

24     July around Srebrenica or --

25             JUDGE KWON:  The witness has answered the question.  Let's move

Page 37017

 1     on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And when we are asking about the Supreme Command, can you tell us

 5     how frequent the Supreme Command meetings were, and what was most

 6     frequently discussed there?  What was the most frequent concern --

 7             MS. McKENNA:  Objection.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- at these meetings?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. McKenna.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Objection.  This is beyond the scope of the

11     cross-examination.  The witness was simply asked whether he was a member

12     of the Supreme Command.  It doesn't open the door for Dr. Karadzic to

13     discuss the Supreme Command generally.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think the door was opened --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  The question of this witness's knowledge, and how

17     much he knew and where he got his information was called -- definitely

18     put into issue by the cross-examination.  I think this question is going

19     directly to that issue.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And, Ms. McKenna, you asked the witness about the

21     knowledge of Mr. Karadzic.

22             MS. McKENNA:  I asked the witness about his own knowledge in

23     connection with the Srebrenica take-over.  The question as to what the

24     most frequent concern of the Supreme Command meeting was is entirely

25     irrelevant to that topic.

Page 37018

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will allow the question.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Are you able to tell us how frequently the meetings of the

 6     Supreme Command were held and what was discussed in these meetings which

 7     would then involve your knowledge of matters that you were summoned here

 8     for?

 9        A.   The meetings were not frequent.  Most often the events on the

10     ground were discussed, the present needs and requirements of the army,

11     and the conditions that were prevalent during those particular days at

12     the front.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the role of the government in conducting

14     the war and what were its responsibilities in terms of the army?

15        A.   Just the provision of materiel and equipment.

16        Q.   On page 73, you were told what I said about the government, and

17     did I ever use these authorities stemming from the constitution to call a

18     meeting of the government and to impose a certain agenda while you were

19     prime minister?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you.  On page 70 you said that you took over the post of

22     prime minister in August 1994 and you said that Yugoslavia had already

23     imposed its sanctions but the date was not recorded.  Are you able to

24     tell the Trial Chamber when the sanctions of the Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia against Republika Srpska were imposed on the Drina?

Page 37019

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat your answer?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Kozic?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this was at the beginning

 4     of August, the 4th day of August.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Answering questions about weak co-operation or

 7     misunderstandings and tensions between the army and the civilian

 8     authorities, would you say that this related to supplies and provisions

 9     or to the degree of the control of the civilian government by the

10     Ministry of Defence and others?

11        A.   I was thinking about the degree of co-operation.

12        Q.   Did this mean that there were no contacts whatsoever?

13        A.   No, of course not, because of the situation that we were all in,

14     this could not have passed without any contacts.  I think the Prosecutor

15     found a very nice formulation for that [B/C/S spoken] tensions were

16     present, if this is the proper way to translate it into English.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned earlier that this delegation that was

18     going to Srebrenica submitted a report.  Were you thinking about the

19     government delegation, the working group that you sent to Srebrenica?

20        A.   Yes, of course.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 17324

22     in e-court.

23             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, if I may, this is the document I

24     believe that you did not admit.  It was open to Mr. Karadzic to elicit

25     further information on this document in direct and then we would have

Page 37020

 1     been able to cross-examine on it.  It's impermissible for him now to seek

 2     to tender it.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, Mr. President, we were not going to

 4     tender it until it came up in cross-examination since she started asking

 5     him about the information he had received, and he mentioned, in fact,

 6     during his cross-examination about the commission that had gone to

 7     Srebrenica.  So now we think that it's appropriate to use it.  If she has

 8     some recross-examination on it, you can permit that.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please proceed.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   May I ask to zoom in on the page in Serbian, if the English

12     version is available to other participants on their screens so that

13     Mr. Kozic, the then-prime minister, could tell us whether this was the

14     report and what it contains.  May I help you?  It says that the visit

15     took place on the 16th; correct?

16        A.   Yes, right.  I'm just reading it.

17        Q.   A state of war was declared?

18        A.   Correct.  And the War Presidency was set up, the duties and tasks

19     were formulated to clear up the town, remove the bodies.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Kozic.  All you asked to the

21     witness before putting this document was you referred -- it's just

22     whether he referred to a working group.  It does not open you to ask any

23     content about it.  So why don't you put some foundational question about

24     it to the witness.  The witness himself in the statement, he did not know

25     well about the contents.  So what is your question to the witness,

Page 37021

 1     Mr. Karadzic?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that he did not mean this

 3     one because today during cross-examination the witness said that the

 4     government working group submitted a report about the situation and about

 5     the removal.  He said something from the contents of this document, about

 6     the clearing up of the town, and so on.  He said -- he mentioned a part

 7     of the contents of the document during the cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we find out the passage?

 9             MS. McKENNA:  I believe that's page 84, line 2.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it is.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did you see this report of the working group, and did the working

13     group implement what you requested it to do in terms of the report and

14     the proposed measures?

15        A.   Of course.  And we acted in accordance with that, as I said

16     earlier.  When asked by the Prosecutor, I did mention some of these

17     details, what they did and I said that the report was submitted and

18     adopted and then it was implemented or we acted in accordance with it.

19        Q.   But this is more about Serbs who died, on page 84.  I think it's

20     later on.  I will find it.  Just -- I ask for your indulgence, please.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't find it now.  But the

22     witness has confirmed that he spontaneously mentioned the work, or

23     rather, the report of this commission.  Can you accept that and admit the

24     document?

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure if the witness made any further comment

Page 37022

 1     than those made in the statement.

 2             Mr. Robinson, could you assist us?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I think what Dr. Karadzic

 4     meant to ask the witness more explicitly is this the report of the

 5     working group that you received as prime minister and I think if the

 6     answer to that is not clear from the answer he gave at line 4, then

 7     perhaps we could ask that again.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Karadzic.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you tell us whether you were satisfied with the report and

12     whether the working group conveyed and noted everything that was a

13     problem in Srebrenica on the 16th of July, 1995?

14        A.   Yes, according to their report, we later on took our moves

15     because we also agreed that the last government session would be devoted

16     to Srebrenica so that we would see what materiel in terms of food, and so

17     on, was needed to appoint certain people to certain positions so that

18     civilian life in Srebrenica could be organised more easily.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you in any report, this one or some other report,

20     receive information that POWs were shot or that anyone else in Srebrenica

21     was shot?

22        A.   No.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. McKenna?

25             MS. McKENNA:  No objection, Your Honour.

Page 37023

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We will receive it.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3376, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   In a telegram dated the 12th of July, where it says that they are

 6     available and have been secured, trucks and buses, how did you understand

 7     this, that they were already driven there, or how do you interpret this,

 8     that they are available, the trucks, I mean?

 9        A.   I understand and interpret this that they quickly got in touch

10     over the phone, all the representatives of war staffs from neighbouring

11     municipalities and said what they could offer to the army in order to

12     have the necessary number.  That's the way we operated during the war and

13     this is how I interpreted the number.

14        Q.   Did it mean that they were already sent to Potocari?

15        A.   No.  It was just that how many there were that we would count on

16     from how many enterprises, and so on.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please have a look at P6210.  This is an

18     alleged meeting at which supposedly what was discussed was paying for the

19     capturing of Teocak which you denied, and I wish to ask you something,

20     just one sentence so that we could hear your comment.  And can we please

21     zoom in.

22             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for the witness --

23     Mr. Karadzic's question, Ms. McKenna, could you remind me of the witness

24     who you cross-examined in the previous time?  Who was it?

25             MS. McKENNA:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't follow.

Page 37024

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The witness you cross-examined.

 2             MS. McKENNA:  Last week?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Last week, the previous time.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  That was Radojica Mladjenjovic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could I read out to you, it says, I informed the commander of

 9     IBK, General Simic, with this information.  The information was received

10     from a reliable source and has not been verified, which I am going to do

11     during my further work and I will later inform you about any new

12     information I receive.  What does this tell you, what sort of a document

13     is this, and do you know whether it was determined by verification

14     whether the document was correct or not?

15        A.   I did not see the lower part on the screen.  I am not even

16     familiar with this Mr. Todorovic, and this confirms my words that he's

17     relying himself on some rumours from the town or whoever told him this.

18     It's completely unverified this information.  He says reliable but what

19     did they consider reliable from the pre-war UDBA?  That was the secret

20     service.  He says himself that it's unverified and that in his future

21     work he would verify it.  But I said earlier that I had never seen these

22     people as civilians before the war, during the war, or after the war.

23     I didn't know them personally at all.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please see, probably has a new number

25     now, 65 ter 11544.  Can you please read out loud the last paragraph,

Page 37025

 1     11544, and probably it is now under a different number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6286, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we zoom in,

 4     please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I will ask you to read out loud the last paragraph.

 7        A.   "Asked by the journalists if the SDS would distance itself from

 8     the Chetniks in eastern Herzegovina as requested by the president of the

 9     Presidency Alija Izetbegovic, the SDS stated the following:  We are not

10     an ideological party but a democratic one.  Those who declare themselves

11     as Chetniks can find their place in the Serbian Radical Party.  We do not

12     advocate any extreme requests."

13        Q.   Thank you.  How does that fit in with the knowledge you had and

14     your experience with our policy towards extremists, whatever they are

15     called?

16        A.   Precisely so, just as you said.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. McKenna [overlapping speakers]

18             MS. McKENNA:  That's outside the scope.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

20             THE ACCUSED:  What's the problem now?  I don't --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. McKenna's objection was that it went beyond the

22     scope of the cross-examination but witness has already answered the

23     question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I think that the document has

25     been admitted during the cross-examination.  So the Prosecution will be

Page 37026

 1     able to refer to it and this is an opportunity for me to offer another

 2     document for admission.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The point has been taken.  Please move on.  But how

 4     long do you need to conclude?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Three minutes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Kozic, that I cannot play some of our intercepted

 9     conversations, yours and mine, but without playing them I would like to

10     ask you if you know who is Mladen Vukovic of Bileca?

11        A.   No.

12             MS. McKENNA:  In any event this is, I believe -- well, perhaps

13     Mr. Karadzic can advise where this arises from the cross-examination.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to see from the

16     intercept what my position was after the press conference and when the

17     journalist asked me what I was saying about the Chetniks in eastern

18     Herzegovina.  In the interview, I said that they should stop being

19     Chetniks.  That's the link with this document which has been admitted,

20     and it's quite significant because throughout this time we made efforts,

21     it's rather very important for relations with the Muslims and their

22     feeling of security in eastern Herzegovina.

23             JUDGE KWON:  If it has been admitted, you can use it in your

24     later submission.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, this one hasn't been admitted.

Page 37027

 1     Can we have 1D05686, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. McKenna.

 3             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, Mr. Kozic answered the question before

 4     I had a chance to rise to my feet but this entire topic is outside the

 5     scope of the cross-examination.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, the topic that he's about to get to

 8     is the weapons seizure on the 24th of May, 1991, and what his attitude

 9     towards that was, which was first expressed in the news article that was

10     just discussed and is now going to -- was the topic of some conversation

11     during an intercepted conversation between Dr. Karadzic and individual in

12     the same town, Bileca.  So that's where we are going with that and

13     I think it's well within the cross.

14             JUDGE KWON:  In that sense, we allow the accused to proceed.

15     Yes, we have the intercept before us.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please see the

17     next page?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you please look at this?  Whether these rumours concerning

20     the transport or smuggling of weapons, how did they affect the good

21     neighbourly relations within Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   Are you asking me, Mr. President?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   Well, it was a minor incident, and I think that I said in the

25     first part that what confirms that is that in Trebinje and in Ljubinje we

Page 37028

 1     had fighters in our battalions who responded to the mobilisation call-up

 2     and we lived quite peacefully and in a tolerant way.  It was that their

 3     extremists wanted to have interparty fights and disputes and the people

 4     were frightened and during the first stage they responded in large

 5     numbers to mobilisation call-ups and when the Territorial Defence called

 6     them.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  When you said fighters, did you have in mind any

 8     specific ethnicity?  You said you had fighters but you didn't say which

 9     fighters.

10        A.   In our Ljubinje Battalion, half of the fighters were Muslims, our

11     neighbours.  They responded to the call-up and as long as up until 1994,

12     they responded to our call-up.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the speakers please slow down and make a

14     break between questions and answers for the purposes of interpretation?

15             MR. KARADZIC: [No interpretation]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] They will never be safer than in eastern

17     Herzegovina.  There would be no danger for them and our people should try

18     to calm down, we have reason that the passions, the cockades should calm

19     down a bit.  We ask the partisans not to be partisans and we ask the

20     Chetniks not to be the Chetniks, and then the next one, the parties have

21     accepted it but now we have a sort of extremists.  It should be a little

22     bit today will go to the Aktiva [phoen], and so on.  How does this

23     correspond with the information you had about our position towards our

24     own extremists?

25        A.   Precisely so, Mr. President.  That was one of the most attractive

Page 37029

 1     things that attracted me to you early on, the tolerance that you had.

 2     You kept saying to all extremists -- extremely oriented guys in our own

 3     ranks that we would not need 1942 when the Chetniks and the partisans

 4     divided among themselves into two armies, you said that we would again

 5     have 1942 and that now the children of the partisans would be in conflict

 6     with the children of the partisans --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down for the

 8     purposes of interpretation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kozic, could you repeat your answer?  You spoke

10     too fast for the interpreters.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I apologise.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   And from where you said that was the basis of our soft policy.

14        A.   The policy advocated by Mr. Karadzic could be summed up by his

15     speeches at our rallies, where he kept warning our guys who had

16     right-wing leanings or who were fans of Drazan Halovic's [phoen]

17     movement.  He used to say to them this, Don't behave in a violent manner,

18     don't be too rough, because we won't get anything by that.  Once again,

19     we will be reliving the year 1942, when the anti-fascist front of the

20     Serbs in the then Yugoslavia split into the partisans and the Chetniks.

21     It's only that the situation would be the opposite now, that is to say

22     the descendants of the Chetniks will now threaten the descendants of the

23     partisans, and this position was something that won over the hearts of

24     all the Serbs in Republika Srpska, and that was why in the first

25     elections we won more than 98 per cent of the votes.  And Mr. Karadzic,

Page 37030

 1     this is a quotation, these were his words:

 2             "My children, even the families of those Serbs who are on the

 3     communists and reformists lists voted for us."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Who were the Muslims in eastern Herzegovina more

 5     afraid of in terms of the Serbs, the partisans or the Chetniks?

 6        A.   Well, I --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we will not allow that question.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you just tell us whether this -- the weapons in your

11     case --

12             JUDGE KWON:  If you have more questions, let's do it tomorrow.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Was it the only trick or deception about the weapons, and what

16     was the outcome in court?

17        A.   Well, the trial was shifted to Niksic and Podgorica by the army

18     and the police because this was the place of the origin of the act, the

19     misdemeanour, and the trial was completed there.  I wasn't attended and

20     no one even invited me.

21        Q.   But were you convicted or were you accused or were you indicted?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for coming here to testify, Mr. Kozic.

24        A.   Thank you too, Mr. President.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see the transcript.  I move to

Page 37031

 1     tender this into evidence.  I meant the intercept.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We will mark it for identification.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D3377, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. McKenna, the reason I asked the previous witness

 5     was at the end of his evidence the Defence tendered a leaflet which was

 6     marked for identification as D3320 and you raised an issue whether it was

 7     identical to Exhibit D2768 and I asked the parties to check it and

 8     I haven't heard the result so that was why.  Yes?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  We did check and it's not identical.

10             JUDGE KWON:  It's not identical.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So I was correct, yes.  Thank you.  That concludes

13     your evidence, Mr. Kozic.  On behalf of the Chamber I thank you for your

14     coming to The Hague to give it.  You are free to go and have a safe

15     journey back home.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you as well,

17     Your Honours.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Hearing is adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.02 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of April

22                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.