Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 39870

 1                           Thursday, 13 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Harvey, yes.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

 9     introduce Nina Mileva, who is just behind the pillar here, who has been

10     with my team for the last six months, is from Skopje, Macedonia, and is

11     studying at the University of Amsterdam and is a very impressive linguist

12     assisting us on our B/C/S translations and work.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Ms. McKenna, please continue.

15             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           WITNESS:  JOVAN IVANOVIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna: [Continued]

19        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   Now, in paragraph 25 of your statement you said that:

22             "I can say with a high degree of certainty that during that

23     period of chaos, the local Serbian leadership had almost no contact with

24     the leadership at Pale."

25             However, in your Grujic testimony, you said that you weren't sure

Page 39871

 1     what sort of road communications existed between Zvornik and Pale between

 2     April and July of that year.  Do you stand by that testimony today, that

 3     you weren't sure what type of road communications there were during that

 4     period?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, yes, Mr. Karadzic?  Objection?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is a linguistic matter.

 8     What was said in Belgrade is the same as what this witness said.  He

 9     didn't say, "I'm not sure whether there were any," but he said, "I'm not

10     sure that there were any."  Now, in the question the meaning was shifted.

11     It may be best to show him the text from Belgrade.

12             MS. McKENNA:  Certainly.  Could we have 65 ter number 25093.

13        Q.   And this, Mr. Ivanovic, is the text from your testimony in

14     Belgrade.

15             MS. McKENNA:  And I'd like to see page 37 of the English and

16     page 26 of the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Mr. Ivanovic, the discussion - and this is at the bottom of the

18     page in the English version - is you're asked by the Presiding Judge:

19             "Was it possible -- were there roads that could go to Pale prior

20     to Karisik arriving?"

21             And you say:

22             "I don't know -- in the first days, everyone was focusing on

23     themselves."

24             And you're asked:

25             "Not in the first days, later on, in May and June," I think we

Page 39872

 1     need to turn to the next page, and you said, "they're all early days.

 2     Well, I don't know what road communications were like.  I'm not sure.

 3     I'm not quite sure."

 4             And then further on you say:

 5             "Again, I don't know.  I don't know what sort of road

 6     communications there were."

 7             THE ACCUSED:  Could we see the Serbian?  Could we see the Serbian

 8     page, please.

 9             MS. McKENNA:  I believe it's page 26 of the Serbian.

10        Q.   Mr. Ivanovic, have you had a chance to review your previous

11     testimony?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask for the relevant page

14     to be displayed, the page in Serbian.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ivanovic, did you read the part, relevant part,

16     from the transcript?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not now.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Oh.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did sometime before, but I don't

20     really know what the question is.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let's show the part.  I cannot help you,

22     Mr. Karadzic, here, but --

23             MS. McKENNA:  Perhaps Mr. Karadzic could direct us to the correct

24     part.  I believe it's on page 26.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that answer is not on this

Page 39873

 1     page.  I either need a hard copy or we must display the different pages.

 2     Perhaps we can print out a couple of pages.  I think it may be page 25.

 3     Could we get the previous page back.  Oh, yes, it's at the top of the

 4     page.  The answer to the previous question must be the first one on this

 5     page.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             Then could you put your question again, Ms. McKenna.

 8             MS. McKENNA:  Certainly.

 9        Q.   If you've had a chance to review your testimony, I'll ask you

10     whether you stand by your testimony in the Grujic case that you don't

11     know what type of road communications there were in the period between --

12     sorry, road communications there were between Zvornik and Pale in the

13     period between April and July 1992?

14        A.   Well, yes, and now I can confirm that I don't know exactly what

15     kind of road communications there were, but during the first months, I

16     never, ever went to Pale because I wasn't sure I'd be safe.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the previous

18     page, page 24?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you can take up this issue in your

20     re-examination.

21             Let's carry on.

22             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   And yesterday, as you explained, after you were beaten up, you

24     didn't participate in -- in fact, you shied away from the municipality,

25     the army, and the paramilitaries, and that was at T 39868.  So,

Page 39874

 1     Mr. Ivanovic, you're not really in a position to testify about the

 2     communications or the contact that the local Serbian leadership had with

 3     the Pale leadership following the breakout of the war, are you?

 4        A.   I didn't hear the interpretation of this last bit well, but you

 5     know --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Then I will ask Ms. McKenna to

 7     repeat her question, in particular the last part.

 8             MS. McKENNA:

 9        Q.   Mr. Ivanovic, do you agree that you are not in a position to

10     testify about the contact that the local Serbian leadership had with the

11     Pale leadership following the breakout of the war?

12        A.   Yes, I can speak about that.  I was not in the ranks of the

13     authorities.  I was a man of the economy.  I had some contacts with

14     people, but not on the basis of political power.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I note that I'm coming to the end of

17     my time.  I will ask for perhaps 15 minutes.  I understand that it's in

18     excess of what I was given, but I would like to cover some additional

19     topics that are relevant.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. McKenna.

22             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23        Q.   In paragraph 28 you -- of your statement, you say that it was

24     only after the paramilitaries had been arrested at the end of July that

25     many of the crimes committed by these paramilitaries were discovered.

Page 39875

 1     Now, I'd like to talk about the awareness of crime being committed that

 2     you spoke about in your previous statements and in your testimony in the

 3     Grujic case.  And again I'd like you to focus on the questions I'm

 4     asking, keep your answers short, and answer yes or no where possible.

 5     These are all matters that you've previously testified about or given a

 6     statement about.

 7             Firstly I'd like to talk about the Karakaj technical school.

 8     Mr. Ivanovic, you knew at the time that there were detentions at the

 9     Karakaj technical school, didn't you?

10        A.   At what time?  You said "at the time," but I'm not sure which

11     time you mean.

12        Q.   You knew during the period between April and July 1992, so prior

13     to the paramilitaries being discovered or being arrested, you knew that

14     there were detentions at Karakaj technical school?

15        A.   I heard something about that, but nothing specific, nothing

16     certain.  But people talked, the people I worked with at the factory.

17        Q.   Well, you heard or you knew that the detainees included men from

18     Djulici, some former employees of your factory, didn't you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you heard of the killings that took place at Karakaj

21     technical school two or three days after they occurred, didn't you?

22        A.   I'm not sure.  I heard of them but with what delay, I don't know.

23        Q.   Well, do you accept that it was in -- a matter of a number of

24     days that you heard about them?

25        A.   I do not know.

Page 39876

 1             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please see again Mr. Ivanovic's testimony

 2     in the Grujic case, and this time I'd like to look at page 23 of the

 3     English and page 16 to 17 of the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Ivanovic, with reference to the villagers from Djulici

 5     you said:

 6             "It is known that men were taken to the school, to the high

 7     school in Karakaj, while women and children went to Tuzla, I guess."

 8             And you were asked:

 9             "When did you hear this, after how many days did you hear this?"

10             And you said:

11             "Well, I do not know exactly, but it was during this period.  Was

12     it two or three days after those events, I do not know."

13             And your -- and you're asked when they were killed and then you

14     heard about it, and you said:

15             "Correct."

16             And you said:

17             "This was simply the word on the street.  People spoke only about

18     that."

19             So do you accept, as you testified previously, that shortly after

20     the killings took place you heard of them?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  The questions are much like the ones you're asking me

22     now.  I said I didn't know a couple of days, two, three days,

23     thereabouts, and my answers now are the same as they were then.  Yeah,

24     I'm not sure how many days elapsed, two, three, five, but it was those

25     days immediately after the events.

Page 39877

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And people were saying that 700 to 800 men were held

 2     there and killed there.  Isn't that what they were saying at the time?

 3        A.   No, nobody mentioned exact numbers then.  Nobody mentioned 700 to

 4     800 people.  Only later on I learned from the media about the number of

 5     people and that's how I came up with that number.  Nobody knew how many

 6     people had been killed in that period of time.  It's all hearsay.  I

 7     don't really have real information about it.  I never went near that

 8     school.  I steered clear of all these crimes.  I was afraid of that.

 9     That's nothing for normal people.  These are abnormal things.  I don't

10     know how to explain that to you.  I said already God forbid that you find

11     yourself in such circumstances because only then would you really

12     understand.  There was a war and things were far from normal.  They were

13     out of control, especially in such a religious and ethnic war as went on

14     there.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.  Again, I'm going to ask you to focus

16     quite specifically on the questions and -- but -- and I'd like to focus

17     on just what your knowledge was or what you heard at the time.

18             Let's talk about Celopek Dom Kulture.  Again, you heard at the

19     time about the detentions in Celopek Dom Kulture, didn't you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you heard that the detainees were from Divici, from Djulici,

22     and from Zvornik; correct?

23        A.   I'm not really sure that I knew they were from Djulici because I

24     think the word was that those from Djulici were being detained at

25     Karakaj, whereas at Celopek there were people from Divici.  That's my

Page 39878

 1     memory now anyway.  I don't quite remember what exactly I said before.

 2     There may have been people from Djulici, though.  I can't remember

 3     exactly.  I don't know that --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that some people were there.

 6     I was passing by that place.  Some guys were keeping guard.  I never saw

 7     the detainees themselves, though, they were inside.  But it was on the

 8     way -- on my way to work and back and that's all.

 9        Q.   But you heard at the time about the mistreatment and killings

10     that were taking place there?

11        A.   Yes.  I heard some stories.  There was talk about some bad guys

12     going in there, beating people up, mistreating them.  I don't know,

13     possibly even killing people, but nothing specific.  Yeah, people talked.

14        Q.   And people also talked about the fact that there were killings in

15     Gero's slaughter-house, didn't they?

16        A.   I heard of that later, but not while that was going on.  You can

17     believe me that even today I don't know where that slaughter-house is.

18     It isn't a place I know.  But later, at a later time, I heard of that

19     slaughter-house too.  It's a slaughter-house where during the

20     Second World War many Serbs were killed and this was some sort of

21     vengeance.  I don't know much about that slaughter-house, though, but as

22     I said, later on I heard that there was some killings there although

23     nothing specific.

24        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'd like to move now to your knowledge of the events

25     in July 1995.  At paragraph 31 of your statement you talked about the

Page 39879

 1     fighting that was occurring in the Zvornik municipality and you say you

 2     heard that a large number of Muslim soldiers had died in the fighting.

 3     Now, in your previous interview with the OTP on the 13th of October,

 4     2000, which was recorded on tape, you gave more details about what you

 5     heard at the time in relation to Muslims being killed in your area.  So

 6     I'm going to ask you to confirm some of these details.

 7             So is it correct that you heard stories about buses of people

 8     being brought through villages in your area with their hands behind their

 9     neck and directed to schools in Rocevic and Pilica?

10        A.   Yes, I heard stories.  Sometimes I even saw some buses that were

11     going to Batkovici.  Some people said that some were in Bijeljina

12     municipality, a place I never saw, and that they were taking these

13     detainees there.  I don't know where they had come from.  And as for

14     schools and detainees, yeah, people talked, where I lived in my village,

15     that Muslims were being taken there and that there had been some

16     killings.  Yes, there were stories about that and I heard those stories.

17        Q.   And you heard that the people taken to those schools were taken

18     and killed, as you've said, for instance, in gravel pits, in Kozluk, and

19     in Pilica school itself; is that correct?

20        A.   I'm not sure at the school at Pilica itself.  From what I heard,

21     the people weren't killed there but taken to some Dom Kulture as it was

22     called, but it wasn't really that.  It was more of a co-op facility, as

23     the communists had built earlier for agricultural co-operatives and that

24     place up there was a school, I don't remember exactly which place you

25     mentioned.

Page 39880

 1        Q.   I'm just going to read a passage from your previous testimony to

 2     refresh your memory.

 3             MS. McKENNA:  And for the parties' reference this is

 4     65 ter 25214, page 13.

 5        Q.   And you said:

 6             "I lived through -- I lived through those two hard months.  I

 7     heard terrible stories about killings.  These stories were circulating at

 8     the time.  That there were some killings committed in school in Pilica,

 9     some people killed on those pit holes, pits by the Drina River, that's

10     what I heard.  It was a secret when those bodies were buried, because it

11     became the subject of interest for all various kinds of international

12     organisations."

13             Does that refresh your memory as to what you heard about the

14     killings at the school in Pilica?

15        A.   Yes, yes, at the time I thought it was at the school, but it

16     wasn't really.  It was at the co-operative building and that's what I

17     learned later.  But it's not a big difference, the distance between the

18     two was a kilometre or two.  They weren't really at the school there, or

19     rather, they were but for a short period of time and then they were moved

20     to that co-operative building because the school is probably too small, I

21     guess.

22        Q.   Well, do you agree that the killings that happened in your area,

23     in and around your village, in Kozluk and in Pilica, were public

24     knowledge at the time?

25        A.   The killings didn't take place in my village but in another, but

Page 39881

 1     doesn't matter.  I understand.  Public knowledge, I don't know [as

 2     interpreted], but the people who lived near to these places simply saw

 3     what was going on and that how stories spread.  You can't hide anything

 4     from the Serbian people.  The Serbs speak about all sorts of things, what

 5     they're supposed to talk about and what not.  And after a couple of years

 6     you can certainly learn the truth from the Serbian people.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It wasn't correctly recorded in

10     line 23.  [In English] "I understand.  Public knowledge, I don't know."

11     [Interpretation] He didn't say he didn't know but he said it was not

12     public knowledge.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, even now I said it was not

14     public knowledge.

15             MS. McKENNA:  Could we --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  At the end of your answer,

17     Mr. Ivanovic, you said this, I quote:

18             "You can't hide anything from the Serbian people.  The Serbs

19     speak about all sorts of things, what they are supposed to talk about and

20     what not.  And after a couple of years, you can certainly learn the truth

21     from the Serbian people."

22             I don't follow what they are supposed to talk about and what not.

23     Could you expand?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if two Serbs quarrel, then

25     rest assured that they will try to lie.  One will try to lie about the

Page 39882

 1     other one.  Yesterday there was a question put by the Prosecutor as to

 2     what I stated about Brano Grujic, when it was mentioned in the

 3     newspapers, Sky News, et cetera.  At that moment we were not on good

 4     terms so there was sort of a bit of teasing involved, so I tried to take

 5     "revenge," and that's why I said yesterday, okay, I apologise to

 6     Brano Grujic, I haven't read that, I haven't heard that.  I don't know

 7     whether you understand that now.

 8             You know what you asked me now about Srebrenica, you know what,

 9     what was crystallised there was this story about Srebrenica, that one --

10     I don't know.  There was a number of people who had surrendered and who

11     were locked up in these facilities and a very large number who had not

12     surrendered and who went on towards Muslim-held territory and who were

13     fighting along the way.  And in that fighting, if that's what you're

14     asking me, a lot of people got killed, a lot of Muslims got killed, a lot

15     of Serbs got killed too, especially young men from my village.  There

16     were many casualties and one day there were three funerals.  So that's

17     the assumption.

18             That's what I heard, that had everybody surrendered, nobody would

19     have been killed.  But in this fighting, a lot of Serbs got killed and

20     then some bad guys from the Serb side took their revenge against these

21     people.  The Serb people never did that in history.  The Serb people are

22     a freedom-loving people and that is something that the Serbs there want

23     the most, that this Tribunal or world justice establish -- oh, I am

24     sorry.  We, the local Serb population there and the Serb people in

25     Republika Srpska in general, we would want it to be established who it

Page 39883

 1     was that committed these killings.

 2             If I spoke fast, the Serb people in Republika Srpska and the Serb

 3     people in general are a freedom-loving people and in history they never

 4     committed any crimes, and that is why we care about it being established

 5     what actually happened during those days after the fall of Srebrenica.

 6             Just another thing, if I may say something as a member of the

 7     Serb people.  I would like to ask this Tribunal to shed light on the

 8     killing of Serb civilians in Sarajevo.  They were killed there and

 9     tortured and the number of fatalities the same like Muslims in

10     Srebrenica, and Serbs are bitter because nobody was prosecuted for that,

11     for what happened in Sarajevo.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ivanovic, I'm not sure if I followed you in full

13     when you said, "If two Serbs quarrel, they will try to lie."

14             So with respect to Srebrenica, what is lie and what is truth?

15     Could you clarify, Mr. Ivanovic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, perhaps you did not

17     understand me very well then.  I wasn't talking about any kind of lies.

18     I mean, what I found out, that is to say, I was not there directly, I

19     heard about all of this, but over all these years, if it is important

20     what these people there are saying -- I mean I cannot talk about things

21     that people are talking about that I hadn't heard of.  I can only talk

22     about what I heard of.  It's what I said.  A certain number surrendered

23     and part of these people lost their lives, how many I don't know.  But a

24     considerable number did not surrender.  They were fighting.  They

25     continued fighting, lots of them lost their lives, lots of Serbs lost

Page 39884

 1     their lives, and then when these others got killed and then their nearest

 2     and dearest also got killed, then they took revenge against those who had

 3     been detained.

 4             Let me not repeat this, this is inappropriate, but it did happen.

 5     Who did this and why?  Again, I can just convey what I've already said.

 6     The man that you are trying here, our president, Mr. Karadzic, did not do

 7     that.  That is 101 per cent certain.  I have a technical education.  You

 8     cannot say that.  You can always say 100 per cent sure.  So we are

 9     100 per cent sure.  He did not order that.  We know all the efforts that

10     he made, everything that he did, et cetera.  So this happened.  It would

11     be a good thing, not only for Mr. Karadzic, but for all of us in

12     Republika Srpska to establish exactly who it was that ordered this and so

13     on.  Even these international conspiracies are mentioned and so on.  I

14     don't know what the truth is.  I saw these documentaries coming from

15     here, from the West, and they refer to these international interferences.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Ms. McKenna.

17             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.

19             MS. McKENNA:  I have one very brief topic for which I would like

20     to move into closed session.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could the Chamber move into private session.

22               [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of  Chamber]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are in private session, Ms. McKenna.

24             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Ivanovic, as we've seen, the account of events that you gave

Page 39885

 1     in your statement to the Defence differs in some significant aspects from

 2     the statements that you've given previously to the Office of the

 3     Prosecutor.  Now, after you spoke to the Prosecution previously, rumours

 4     spread in Zvornik that you had spoken to them and you had given away --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  But what's the reason for the

 6     private session?

 7             MS. McKENNA:  It will become apparent, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  All right.

 9             MS. McKENNA:  I believe.

10        Q.   After you'd spoken to the Prosecution previously, rumours spread

11     in Zvornik that you had spoken to them and given away some information

12     about some people that you were not supposed to.  Isn't that correct?

13        A.   No, that is absolutely not correct.

14             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please see 65 ter 25117.

15        Q.   Mr. Ivanovic, this is your statement of March 2002.

16             MS. McKENNA:  And I'm interested in page 11 of the English and

17     page 16 of the B/C/S.

18        Q.   And in the final paragraph of your statement you say:

19             "For the time being I'm not willing to testify because of my

20     family and my security concerns, but ICTY can use my statement as

21     evidence.  After I spoke to ICTY investigators last year, the rumours

22     spread in town that I talked to the investigators and gave away some

23     information about some people that I was not supposed to."

24             So can you confirm that that is what you stated to the

25     investigators?  You will see your initials on that page.

Page 39886

 1        A.   Yes, I did say that but I have to explain why I said that.  I had

 2     some conflicts with some policemen there on the Drina, they were Mafia,

 3     not police.  I know that now; I didn't know it then.  I was afraid of

 4     those people.  It was in that context.  So it's not in the context of

 5     what you were asking about roughly or what you were intimating.

 6        Q.   In Ivanovic, I put it to you that it's in your interest to

 7     testify publicly now, giving an account of events that is favourable to

 8     Mr. Karadzic.

 9        A.   Yes, I understand, but I don't know what you're asking me.

10        Q.   I'm asking you whether it will assist your position to be seen to

11     be testifying publicly, giving an account of events that is favourable to

12     the Defence in this case?

13        A.   No, absolutely.  I never asked for protection.  Whenever I

14     testified, I always speak publicly.  I was never afraid, ever, in my life

15     of what I state.  I said last time too.  For five or six hours these

16     investigators who were putting questions to me, they're so boring, they

17     keep asking you things and then I say five times that I don't know

18     something and then the sixth time I probably say something I'm not

19     supposed to say.  I'm a technologist, I'm not a lawyer.  And then you --

20     well, for the most part I simply couldn't read this anymore and I just

21     sign it because then you have to spend another three hours reading all of

22     it.  You know, I never could take that kind of thing.  I couldn't take

23     lawyers.  I don't like this system of work and so on.  I like being

24     efficient, practical.  That's it.  I have no reason to hide anything or I

25     don't need any kind of protection.  As far as I'm concerned, you don't

Page 39887

 1     have to draw any kind of blinds or curtains or whatever.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I still don't follow why we had to be in private

 4     session.  The statement is in public?

 5             MS. McKENNA:  That's true.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It was out

 6     of an abundance of caution for the security of the witness, in fact.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  So shall we go -- and so Mr. --

 8             MS. McKENNA:  We would have no --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Ivanovic, you have no difficulty with

10     lifting the confidentiality of the conversation that you just had with

11     the Prosecutor?  Put otherwise, do you have any problem with making

12     public your previous conversation with the -- with Ms. McKenna?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it should be accessible to the

14     public.  Everything I said should be made accessible to the public,

15     everything I said yesterday and today.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             We go back to open session.

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MS. McKENNA:

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.

22             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

23     witness.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. McKenna.

25             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

Page 39888

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Good

 2     morning, Your Excellencies.  Good morning to all.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Please, let us remember to pause between questions and answers,

 7     and I'll start with the things that you said just now.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could we please call up P6403.

 9     Could we please have that in e-court, P, Prosecution number, 6403.  And

10     then could I have page 16, or rather, 17.  17.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You were asked, Mr. Ivanovic --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 16 in the text or 17 -- no,

14     this is the 16.  Well, now the next one -- just a moment, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   About 100 persons, et cetera, that's what is here.  You were

17     asked whether people knew or did not know, whether this was accessible to

18     the public --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Please wait until we have the

20     relevant English page as well.

21             Do you have the page number?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, unfortunately, but it was

23     called up by Ms. McKenna.  Page 16 in Serbian and right after that

24     page 17.  I think it's 24 in English.  Yes, that's it.  Now could we have

25     the next page in both languages, please.

Page 39889

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Ivanovic, this is what I'm interested in.  Could you read

 3     your second answer from the top, "Let me tell you ..." et cetera?

 4        A.   I can.

 5             "Well, let me tell you, these things were not done EPP or

 6     publicly.  I assume all of that was done in some secret way, that is to

 7     say, really, when this happened, nobody knew about it."

 8             That is probably concerning those killings for something.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before time passes by.  For record I

11     hereby confirm again that the audio/video part and the transcript of the

12     private session should be lifted, to be public.

13             Yes, please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what EPP means?

17        A.   Well, literally it stands for economic propaganda programme.  Let

18     me just read this once again.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Commercials on television.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not done publicly.  You

21     know, it's not that somebody was bragging about that.  Well, you know,

22     EPP, when you really want everybody to know about something, you know,

23     marketing and things, then I said I assumed that all of this was done in

24     some secret way and that no one knew about that, how it happened, where

25     it happened, and so on, except for these people who actually did it, of

Page 39890

 1     course.  Like any secret operation, if you will.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is that your position today as well?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now let us look at page 24.  You were asked about

 6     whether you knew that there were no communications and whether you knew

 7     or did not know about the existence of communications.  This is a bit

 8     complicated, so let us take a look at page 24 in Serbian.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 24 in Serbian, the next page

10     in Serbian.  The bottom of the page.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The Presiding Judge is asking you about these policemen, who

13     commanded them in Zvornik, these policemen.  Do you see that towards the

14     bottom?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Page 37 in English.  And he's asking you who commanded these

17     policemen and you say possibly this Pantelic and so on.  Then the

18     Presiding Judge says:

19             "Is there anyone above him there?"

20             And you say:

21             "Believe me, I don't know.  There was no one, I think.  I might

22     be wrong, but at the time there was no -- further on towards, I don't

23     know, Pale or" --

24             And the President of the Chamber says:

25             "There wasn't?"

Page 39891

 1             And you say:

 2             "I think there wasn't.  I don't know when Karisik's police came

 3     to Zvornik, but when that police came to Zvornik, then some sort of order

 4     was actually installed ..."

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point.

 6     I'm not clear how the issue of who was in command of the policemen in

 7     Zvornik arose from the cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Ivanovic is answering

10     here that he did not know whether there was any communication towards

11     Pale, he doesn't know of its existence, and that is a question of

12     linguistic nuance.  And that was raised in the cross-examination.  As a

13     matter of fact, this page was called up, 23, 24.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

15             JUDGE KWON:  No, but this is not related to you as such.  But how

16     the current question is related to the communication thing?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in the cross-examination the

18     question was raised, and this page was even called up, as if Mr. Ivanovic

19     had said that he had not known whether there had been communication or

20     not.  And I'm saying this is a question of linguistic nuance.  He said,

21     "I didn't know that it existed.  I don't think there was any but I may be

22     mistaken," it's page 5, line 1.

23             JUDGE KWON:  But what -- but your question related to who, as to

24     who commanded these policemen.  How is that question related to the

25     cross-examination?

Page 39892

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, please take a look

 2     at what the President of the Chamber is asking him, whether there was

 3     someone above them, above these local commanders.  And then it gets to

 4     this question of whether there was any communication with the centre.  I

 5     see here, Presiding Judge:

 6             "And is there anyone above him there?"

 7             And then Mr. Ivanovic says that:

 8             "Maybe I'm" --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Let's find the passage first.  Where is it?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Last third, or rather, from the

11     middle of the page.  [In English] "Presiding Judge:  And who commanded

12     him?  Is there anyone there above him?"

13             Witness Jovan Ivanovic:

14             "Believe me there was no one.  I believe I might be wrong but at

15     that time there was none" -- oh, my God.  This is -- [Interpretation]

16     This is a mistranslation, a total mistranslation in English.

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, but how is that question arising from the

18     issue of communication?  Where does that -- the communication issue

19     appear, Ms. McKenna, what page?

20             MS. McKENNA:  The communication issue --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Is this on this page?

22             MS. McKENNA:  It's on this page but the question was --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Where is it?

24             MS. McKENNA:  It's at the very bottom.  Mr. Ivanovic was asked:

25             "Was it possible -- were there roads that could go to this Pale

Page 39893

 1     place prior to Karisik arriving?"

 2             And it continues, the discussion continues about the roads.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MS. McKENNA:  I would also, while I'm on my feet, object to

 5     Mr. Karadzic reading tracts of the witness's previous evidence to him, as

 6     that is clearly leading.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please move on to another topic.  The

 9     Chamber agrees with Ms. McKenna's observation.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I might be missing

11     something but -- or maybe the Chamber's missing something, and it's

12     difficult when we don't know the language what Dr. Karadzic is trying to

13     convey to us --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'm fine with him dealing with the language

15     issue.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  That's what he's been dealing with.

17             JUDGE KWON:  To come back to that issue, not this part.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  It's unfortunate this part was mixed with the part

19     communication towards Pale.  This business about commanding was -- the

20     context was presented in connection with communication towards Pale --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You can explain to us in the absence

22     of the witness.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  I think it's better if Dr. Karadzic just goes on

24     and asks him another question, but if you give him the latitude to

25     explore this, I think he would be able to do that.

Page 39894

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ivanovic, if you could excuse yourself for some

 2     moments.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the meantime --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just talking about the

 7     translation.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Now, Mr. Karadzic, you can explain how these issues

 9     are interrelated and ...

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, Ms. McKenna called

11     up this page to prove that, at some point in time, Mr. Ivanovic made a

12     different statement in terms of communication between Zvornik and Pale.

13     The translation into English is completely wrong.  He did not say "there

14     was no one."  He said "there was none."  [In English] Concerning the

15     communication.

16             [Interpretation] And it's linked to this.  The Presiding Judge

17     there is asking who was above them?  The one above them is in Pale and

18     that is how --

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, let's go on.  Where did he say "there is none"?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is where it is.  The

21     Presiding Judge says:

22             "And is there anyone above him there?"

23             And then his answer that follows that and then he says there

24     was -- [In English] "There was no one."  "There didn't exist" should be

25     translated, that "there didn't exist."  "I think I may be wrong, but in

Page 39895

 1     that time there was no existing any further" --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No, just a second --

 3             THE ACCUSED: -- towards Pale.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I found that location.  But it reads like this:

 5             "And who commands him?  Is there anyone there above him?

 6             "I don't know.  Believe me.  There was no one.  I believe I might

 7     be wrong but at the time there was none."

 8             But how is this passage related to the communication issue which

 9     Ms. McKenna raised?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because whoever would be above this

11     local police would be in Pale, and he didn't say "there was no one."  He

12     used the feminine "it did not exist," meaning there was no communication.

13     Because this one who would be above would have to be in Pale.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow.  You're saying that he didn't say

15     "there was no one," what do you mean?  He said "there was no one," but

16     you say he didn't say "there was no one."

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, "nije postojala,"

18     that means that something that is in the feminine had not existed.  And

19     the translation there says "there was no one," "there was nobody."  And

20     that's not true.  And then he says:

21             "I don't think it existed."

22             JUDGE KWON:  What was the question for that answer?  "Who

23     commands him?  Is there anyone there above him?"

24             That was the question.  And according to you then, the answer

25     was:

Page 39896

 1             "It didn't exist."

 2             So it means that there was no one who commanded him.  I don't

 3     know what --

 4             THE ACCUSED:  No, no, towards Pale.  There was no towards Pale,

 5     towards Pale.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I beg your pardon.  So could you read out the

 7     Serbian passage slowly.  Where is it in the B/C/S part?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last third.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, if you could read it out aloud.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Presiding Judge says:

11             "All right.  Who commands them?

12             "Ivanovic:  Who, the police?

13             "The Presiding Judge:  These policemen, that senior cadre in

14     Zvornik.

15             "Ivanovic:  It is possible that that Pantelic person was it

16     then."

17             "Presiding Judge:  And who commands him, is there anyone there

18     above him?"

19             "Ivanovic:  Believe me, I don't know.  It did not exist, I think.

20     I might be wrong, but there at that time there was no -- further on,

21     towards, I don't know, Pale or ..."

22             "Presiding Judge:  There wasn't?"

23             "Ivanovic:  I think it didn't exist ..." and so on.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I see a translation issue here.  The Chamber

Page 39897

 1     finds it may be related to the method of communication at the time.

 2     We'll allow the question to be continued.

 3             Shall we bring in the witness.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, where should we begin again.  What is your

 6     question for the witness, Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask the witness to read

 8     the second-last answer and to tell us what it was that did not exist

 9     towards Pale.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   What is the gist of the answer?

12        A.   I understand the question.  The gist of this answer is that there

13     was no -- in the days of chaos and when the paramilitaries were engaging

14     in atrocities, realistically speaking there could be no co-ordination

15     with the leadership in Pale.  First and foremost, I have in mind

16     Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and their closest associates.  There was no

17     electronic communication, the lines were down.  We did have some

18     connection with Serbia locally, but Bosnia as a whole did not, and the

19     roads were as they were.  So I understand the question and I responsibly

20     claim that in Zvornik we were a state within state.  Whatever we did was

21     done by the local people, and unfortunately these paramilitaries and

22     volunteers, whatever you call them, they came for different reasons, for

23     looting, hatred, and other reasons.  So the leadership in Pale ...

24             I mentioned Krajisnik here.  On the 5th and the 6th, before all

25     of it, he dropped by, and I asked him -- because we were confused with

Page 39898

 1     Arkan's men's arrival, he was very surprised, he didn't know about it,

 2     and he simply disappeared from Karakaj.  I don't even know where he went.

 3     That's the answer more or less.  No co-ordination could have existed and

 4     it did not.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  The last question by the Presiding Judge, can you

 7     read it out loud.

 8        A.   "Could there be or was there communication?  Could one go to this

 9     Pale before Krajisnik arrived?"

10        Q.   Can you look at the name?

11        A.   It's Karisik, it's Karisik, I apologise.

12        Q.   Thank you.  The next page, please.  And when you say "Krajisnik,"

13     you meant Karisik?

14        A.   Yes, Karisik from the Serbian police.

15        Q.   How would you interpret it, an idiom in our language?  Well, I

16     really don't know, in the first few days everyone was minding their own

17     business?

18        A.   I think I answered already.  Everyone was busy with themselves

19     alone.  All municipalities -- or perhaps let's not go into other

20     municipalities, but in Zvornik, it was the local people who made

21     decisions about everything of importance, for life, the conflict, the

22     economy, everything, as if the state did not exist because it was only

23     being established and even the basic state functions were not in place --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Can we see the previous page for the

25     English.

Page 39899

 1             Yes, please continue.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Karisik -- Mr. Ivanovic, when did Karisik arrive?  When you

 4     referred to the period of chaos and ordering things after Karisik

 5     arrived, when were the Yellow Wasps arrested and when did Karisik impose

 6     order?

 7        A.   As far as I recall, it was in late July 1992.  I don't know if

 8     I'm correct, but to the best of my recollection, late July or early

 9     August 1992.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have pages 17, 24,

12     and 25 admitted, if that has not been tendered by Ms. McKenna already.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll add those pages to the exhibit.

14             Do we need to ask the CLSS to check the translation?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  I would think we should and have the exhibit be

16     corrected if necessary.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, what I was told is that what we have is the --

19     is an unrevised version of the OTP, so we hereby request the CLSS to take

20     a look into this translation.

21             Shall we continue.

22             Yes, Ms. McKenna.

23             MS. McKENNA:  Just to clarify, Your Honour, which -- because I

24     believe the pages that Mr. Karadzic referred to are the B/C/S pages.

25     Would that be pages 37 and 38 of the English?  I just want to make sure

Page 39900

 1     that that whole discussion on communications is admitted.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I cannot be of

 3     assistance.  I will rely on my associate, Mr. Sladojevic, he will inform

 4     the Prosecution of the page numbers in English.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.  And just to clarify, page 17 didn't

 6     relate to the discussion that we were just having.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What we discussed is page 37 and 38 in e-court and

 8     hard copy as well, in English?

 9             MS. McKENNA:  In English, yes, Your Honour.  But my understanding

10     was that Mr. Karadzic asked for pages 17, 24, and 25 of the B/C/S.  So

11     I'm just making sure that we're all clear as to what exactly is being

12     admitted.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 38 in English was not

14     something we touched upon.  On page 17 we have something about what he

15     was asked about in terms of how come it wasn't "no."  And we clarified

16     that Mr. Ivanovic stood by his answer that such things were done covertly

17     without any PR.  On 24 and 25, it has to do with the clarification of

18     whether there was communication or not which is described by page -- on

19     page 37 in the English.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  But page 38 includes the conversation

21     which Ms. McKenna discussed with the witness, so those pages will be --

22     we'll make sure that those pages are included in the exhibit.

23             Shall we continue?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that what's on page 38

25     was not shown to the witness, but very well, we'll see.

Page 39901

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. McKenna showed it to the witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only the first two lines of the

 3     page.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Yesterday, Mr. Ivanovic, you were asking about payments and the

 8     TO.  Given the fact that you were the president of the peace time

 9     government in the joint municipality of Zvornik, can you tell us who was

10     supposed to pay the municipal TO?

11        A.   I don't know exactly how people were being paid out by the

12     municipality of Zvornik.  I do know that -- that contributions were made

13     by different companies in Zvornik, specifically in the company of Birac

14     where I worked.  There was money exempt for the procurement of food,

15     clothes, footwear, and as well as some kind of payment or salary,

16     although I believe they only received minimum amounts since we did not

17     have enough money to pay out proper salaries to the armed forces.  We

18     were defending lives and freedom, and people were simply happy enough to

19     have footwear, clothes, and a warm place to sleep.

20        Q.   Thank you.  As for the paramilitary groups, did they arrive as

21     paramilitaries and did they register themselves as volunteers with the

22     TO?

23        A.   As far as I have been informed, I think they arrived as

24     volunteers because there was no other way for them to arrive.  They

25     probably didn't like engaging in war and they didn't really come to be

Page 39902

 1     the true defenders of Serbian freedom, and then they cut themselves

 2     loose.  They did what they wanted.  No one could control them at the

 3     time.  That's what I know about it, although I have no specific evidence.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And the Zvornik government, was there someone who

 5     could deny payment to them?

 6        A.   No.  I don't think so.  I think it all boiled down to force and

 7     threats.  I don't know exactly how it worked.  I don't want to tire you.

 8     I really don't know how much they pay these volunteers and if they pay

 9     them.  I really know very little about it.

10        Q.   What you said before, that there was no force, no person in power

11     who could dare deny salaries to them, do you stand by that answer?

12        A.   Yes, I stand by it.  They would get into factories with arms and

13     rifles, and even if they walked into the municipal building with weapons,

14     the last German mark, the last dinar would be paid out to them.  It

15     wasn't the payment of salaries; it was more taking the resources.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What we don't have in the

17     transcript was that it wasn't the payment of salaries but it was simply

18     seizing things, taking away.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think we have it here, taking the resources.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On page 95 of yesterday's transcript there was mention of a

23     Muslim village where Serb forces entered.  Can you say what you meant by

24     that and whether it involved a lawful, legal formation; and if so, what

25     unit was it?

Page 39903

 1        A.   I can't recall off-the-cuff what it had to do with.  I can't say

 2     anything specifically in terms of what Serb forces they were.

 3        Q.   Perhaps it has to do with Djulici or another village that was

 4     abandoned by Muslim civilians.  I was interested in what you meant to say

 5     when you said "Serb forces," was it on the basis of ethnicity or was it a

 6     legal formation commanded by the state?

 7        A.   No, there was no formation commanded by the state, they didn't

 8     exist at the time.  The people involved were Serbs from the environs of

 9     Kladanj and Olovo.  A large number of Serbs who with much effort and

10     sacrifice managed to break through the encirclement of Muslim forces,

11     since in Djulici, those people there felt it would be better for them to

12     leave and stay alive than the others enter their homes.  That's where

13     they were accommodated.  Those are the Serb forces.  They included armed

14     people from those areas, and thanks to the weapons they managed to break

15     through and stay alive, otherwise they would all have been killed.

16     That's where they found accommodation and the village population was

17     supposed to go to Tuzla, and yesterday we discussed the issue of men

18     being separated from the women and children.  But I'd rather not go back

19     to that issue again, but that's what I meant when I said "Serb forces."

20        Q.   Thank you.  On page 95 you mentioned that every village had its

21     military leaders.  Can you tell us under the Law on All People's Defence

22     and Social Self-Protection, was it unlawful for every settlement,

23     factory, let alone municipality to have their own TO --

24             MS. McKENNA:  Objection, objection, that's a leading question.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 39904

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you tell us how -- who had the authority over the TO under

 4     the law?

 5        A.   A relative of mine was one of the leaders of people's defence and

 6     he explained to me how things worked.  In Tito's Yugoslavia, which was

 7     falling apart at that time, it was the people who organised themselves in

 8     the case of natural disasters or whatever.  This was a civil war, of

 9     course, it was not an external attack.  But in such situations, any

10     village organised its own defence.  It was easy to understand it.  No one

11     had problems understanding it then.  I don't know how clear I was now.

12        Q.   Well, you would be clearer if you spoke more slowly.  Thank you.

13             On page 97 yesterday, it was either read out to you or you said

14     it.  You mentioned some events, Brod, Sijekovac, Kupres, and so on, that

15     affected the state of mind of the people in your area.  Can you tell us

16     what was happening there?

17        A.   Yes, I can.  Toward the end of 1991, much before or actually not

18     much before, immediately before the events at Zvornik, because it was the

19     end of the 20th century after all and there were communications in place

20     and there hadn't yet been any extreme tensions, at that time atrocities

21     were committed at Sijekovac.  It's in the Brod municipality.  The

22     Croatian forces entered and committed crimes.  At Kupres, too, I don't

23     know what exactly the ethnic make-up of that area was.  It was again the

24     Croatian forces that committed terrible crimes, people were decapitated

25     and what have you.  And at another place, the Muslim forces committed

Page 39905

 1     crimes.  And we weren't even aware that at Sapna a hundred men were armed

 2     and getting ready, whereas at the same time the Muslim authorities were

 3     telling us that everything was all right, that there were no problems,

 4     and so on.  There was obviously distrust and somebody was giving orders

 5     to these people.  Whether it was an order from the central authorities

 6     that came from Izetbegovic or not, I don't know.  I suppose it was.

 7        Q.   Please repeat who the first victims were at the localities you

 8     mentioned because it wasn't recorded.

 9        A.   Yes.  All the victims were Serbs.  At all these places I've

10     mentioned, either Serbian civilians or JNA members.  They were children,

11     actually, not really soldiers.  You couldn't really call them that,

12     although they were wearing JNA soldiers -- JNA uniforms, which means they

13     were the legal army of the time.

14        Q.   On page 94 you were asked about the connections between the TO

15     and the Crisis Staff.  In the context of the arming implemented by the

16     Crisis Staff.  Did the JNA and the Crisis Staff arm individuals and what

17     was the connection between the TO and the Crisis Staff?  Did they

18     distribute weapons to individuals and how was that regulated?

19        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know for sure how weapons were

20     brought in, but I know that weapons did come in.  I think that the Serbs

21     got weapons -- well, where exactly did they come from?  It may have been

22     left behind by the JNA that was in Bosnia.  The JNA went through to

23     Serbia, but it seems that they left many weapons behind.  I don't know

24     how people obtained these weapons.  They were distributed in villages,

25     but I wasn't involved, so I'm not sure how it went.  I never really

Page 39906

 1     asked.  And the Muslims controlled the TO in Sarajevo and the police and

 2     then they were taking weapons from those storage facilities, but you know

 3     it was no problem getting weapons.  Whenever people want weapons, they

 4     will get them, unfortunately.

 5        Q.   Why did you activate the Serbian municipality of Zvornik so late?

 6     When was it proclaimed and when was it activated?

 7        A.   It was proclaimed much earlier as a reaction to the impossibility

 8     of doing anything together.  And when I say "together," I'm referring to

 9     the SDA party, that is, the Muslims of Zvornik.  And it was activated,

10     well, basically when the conflict began.  We didn't want to activate it

11     because it was ludicrous.  We thought that we would be able to reach

12     agreement.  We believed that it would all end peacefully.  We never even

13     imagined there would be a conflict.  It was a political response, a

14     political platform, based on ignorance of what should be done.  I believe

15     that they too didn't know what to do, I'm talking about the executive

16     authorities in Zvornik.  But the first half here they probably didn't

17     care much.  They were preoccupied by the proclaiming of a sovereign

18     Muslim Bosnia and probably by preparations, armed preparations.  And I

19     suppose that they wanted to get ready to exert control over us, but

20     that's my assumption.

21        Q.   In document P6404, on page 14 there is mention of this connection

22     between the TO and the Crisis Staff in the context of the distribution of

23     weapons.  Now let us clarify what you meant --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it's page 15.  It's

25     page 15 in Serbian.

Page 39907

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Would you kindly repeat the page number,

 2     Mr. Karadzic.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you have?  If it's

 4     more than five or ten minutes, the Chamber wishes to have a break now.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Less than five minutes, Excellency.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to display the

 8     document.  It was shown yesterday.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Is it because we have admitted only those limited

10     number of pages?  I'm told that it does not have 15 pages.  Let us check.

11     It's part of his October 2002 statement.  Do we have a 65 ter number,

12     then?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 25117.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, 25117 -- 118.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That exists too, but it's another

16     document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  If it is 25117, the Exhibit number is P6402.  What

18     statement was -- is it?  Is it March or October, Mr. Karadzic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 15th of March and the

20     27th of March, 2002.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, 25117.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Ivanovic, we read here that the variant involving the

24     creation of two municipalities was successful.  Was it possible for

25     either ethnic community to be expelled from its municipality?

Page 39908

 1        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

 2             MS. McKENNA:  Could I also request a specific reference from

 3     Mr. Karadzic.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's coming, but what passage is it?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not from the document.

 6     On page 87 of yesterday's transcript, Mr. Ivanovic was asked about the

 7     municipality and he replied that everything was set for it to start

 8     working.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And my question is:  Would it have begun operating if everything

11     had ended peacefully and would each side have gotten its own

12     municipality?

13        A.   No.  We would have continued to live peacefully with each other,

14     which is the situation we have today, too.

15        Q.   Is there a Muslim municipality of Zvornik today, whatever it's

16     called?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   No more questions, Mr. Ivanovic.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Well, Mr. Ivanovic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of

21     the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to

22     give it.  Now you are free to go.

23             We'll rise all together.  We'll have a break for half an hour and

24     resume at five past 11.00.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 39909

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  MARINKO VASILIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Vasilic.  Please be seated and make

10     yourself comfortable.

11             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Vasilic, I must draw your

12     attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the

13     International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may

14     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic or the Prosecution or

15     even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

16     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

17     something that may amount to admission of guilt in a criminal offence or

18     saying something that might provide evidence that you might have

19     committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an answer

20     might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer the

21     question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel

22     you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal would

23     ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would not be

24     used in any case that might be laid against you in any case save and

25     except the offence of giving false testimony.

Page 39910

 1             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Vasilic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vasilic.

 7        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Please point it out to me when I don't make a pause between your

 9     answer and my question because we want everything to be recorded and

10     that's why we should both speak slowly.

11             Did you give the Defence team a statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D9610 from

14     e-court.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you see your statement on the screen in front of you?

17        A.   Yes, I do, but I would kindly ask for it to be enlarged.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read and sign the statement?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the last page to the

21     witness so that he may identify his signature.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Is this your signature?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement faithfully reflect what you said

Page 39911

 1     to the Defence team?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions again today, would your

 4     answers be essentially the same?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  There's one associated

10     exhibit being offered.  It has not been on our 65 ter list because we

11     hadn't finished the interview of this witness at the time we filed that

12     list, so we would ask that it be added.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  No, no objection.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll admit the statement as well as the

16     associated exhibit.

17             Shall we assign the numbers.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  1D9610, the statement, will be

19     Exhibit D3693, and 1D7329 will be Exhibit D3694.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             I will now read out a summary of Mr. Marinko Vasilic's statement

23     in English.

24             [In English] Marinko Vasilic started working for the BH MUP in

25     1975.  He performed all duties from a police officer to commander.  In

Page 39912

 1     the political campaigns before the first multi-party elections in

 2     Zvornik, there was an escalation of nationalism and chauvinism in the

 3     rallies of the SDA party.  Shortly after the elections of the new

 4     authorities, there were new appointments in the Zvornik public security

 5     station.  Osman Mustafic was appointed chief of the SJB and

 6     Dragan Spasojevic as commander of the Zvornik SJB.  After the Zvornik

 7     authorities were formed in 1991, there was a split between the SDA and

 8     SDS.  The SDA had a clear policy of action with the goal of separating BH

 9     from the SFRY at any cost, while SDS policy operated towards the

10     preservation of the existing state and reaching a peaceful solution to

11     the problems.

12             SDA leaders from Sarajevo put big pressure on Zvornik Muslim

13     leadership and -- to create a unitary BH, regardless of the will of the

14     Serbs in BH.  In 1991, Assistant Commander Mehmed Sahbegovic told

15     Marinko Vasilic that it was time for the Muslims to create their state of

16     Bosnia and the Serbs would be a minority in it.  The SDA in Zvornik

17     worsened ethnic relations by out-voting and ignoring the needs of the

18     Serbs in Zvornik.  This reflected on the deterioration in the relations

19     in the Zvornik Public Security Station between Muslim police officers and

20     the Serbian police officers.  Muslims grouped themselves in some offices

21     and Serbs in others.  When Serbs went out into the field during operative

22     work, they were not welcome in villages and local communes where the

23     Muslims lived.

24             Political disagreement in the local authorities of Zvornik

25     impacted ordinary people.  Ethnically motivated arguments and incidents

Page 39913

 1     were all encouraged by Islamic extremists in the local authorities

 2     causing frequent physical attacks and maltreatment of Serbs and members

 3     of the JNA in the town by organised groups of Muslims.  There were

 4     attacks on soldiers and officers, causing great fear among the Serbs.

 5             In early 1991, Muslim commanding officers in Zvornik SJB started

 6     forming reserve police stations.  The stations were exclusively formed in

 7     the villages inhabited by only Muslims.  They were issued with

 8     long-barrelled weapons.  The weapons came through illegal channels from

 9     Sarajevo and Tuzla.  The Serbs did not know of these activities and

10     insisted on talks and issued various statements calling on good

11     neighbourly relations with mutual respect.  They wanted to resolve

12     problems peacefully.  The Serbs saw the JNA as a force and institution

13     which could prevent a civil war in BH.

14             In summer 1991, the SDS organised a rally in support of peace in

15     Zvornik.  Radovan Karadzic and other SDS leaders spoke at the rally.  All

16     speakers asked everyone to make an effort and showing a maximum tolerance

17     and condemning nationalism and separatism reach a peaceful solution

18     through talks.

19             The Muslims took the police station in Zvornik twice.  Leaders of

20     the Zvornik SDA were responsible for taking the station and setting up

21     barricades in the town and in Muslim villages.  As the security situation

22     deteriorated every day, the JNA carried out mobilisation preventing a

23     potential ethnic conflict in Zvornik.  The Serbs responded to

24     mobilisation while the Muslims, under pressure from their leaders,

25     boycotted this mobilisation and portrayed the JNA as the occupying army.

Page 39914

 1     At the time, the Muslims already had armed units.

 2             By 3rd of April, 1992, Muslim paramilitary units set up many

 3     check-points and barricades throughout Zvornik.  On 5th of April, Muslim

 4     extremists killed a JNA officer, causing panic and fear among the Serbs.

 5     In populated areas or villages where Serbs lived, people formed village

 6     guards on their own initiative to protect themselves.  On 6th of April,

 7     1992, Zvornik was sealed off and under full control of Muslims.  Serbs

 8     who did not pull out during the night started fleeing to Karakaj

 9     individually.  Armed Muslims were controlling the town.  They searched

10     Serbian houses and apartments, maltreating and beating the Serbs who were

11     there.

12             The Serbian leadership in Zvornik continued talks that had

13     already been started and initiated a meeting with the Muslim leadership

14     for security reasons.  Jovo Mijatovic and Jovo Ivanovic joined the team

15     for talks on behalf of the Serbs.  Arkan burst uninvited into the meeting

16     in Mali Zvornik with his men.  He called the Serbian negotiators

17     traitors, saying they had no right to sell Serbian land.  A soldier beat

18     both Serbian negotiators.  Arkan and his unit then took over command and

19     influenced everything that happened in Zvornik.

20             In late April 1992, Marinko Vasilic tried to organise police work

21     with the goal to -- of ensuring security for the people of Zvornik.  They

22     set up check-points and tried to secure the vital buildings in the town.

23     There was no electricity or telephone lines, so communication was

24     organised through couriers.  The local Serbian authorities in Zvornik

25     were powerless to oppose the anarchy and lawlessness of the paramilitary

Page 39915

 1     units in Zvornik.  Police officers were often physically maltreated and

 2     abused by the paramilitaries.  They tried to get out of their way

 3     whenever possible.  Both local and police leadership were left to the

 4     mercy of the paramilitary forces.  The local leadership tried and took

 5     some actions to alleviate the extreme and arrogant activity of the

 6     paramilitaries as much as it could.

 7             Marinko Vasilic repeatedly asked his colleagues in Mali Zvornik

 8     for help with paramilitary groups and individuals.  None of his requests

 9     came to fruition.  In July 1992 Branko Grujic informed Radovan Karadzic

10     about Zvornik's problems.  Karadzic was surprised by the situation in

11     Zvornik.  He ordered police forces be sent to Zvornik and arrest the

12     gang.  Shortly after, Branko Grujic and Marinko Vasilic submitted

13     irrevocable resignation for fear of their lives and lives of their

14     families.  On 29th and 30th of July of 1992, special forces of the MUP

15     came to Zvornik, in co-ordinated military action with military police

16     units and, using weapons, arrested paramilitary units.  All the persons

17     arrested were prosecuted and tried before the relevant courts in RS and

18     Serbia.

19             And that is short summary, and at that moment I do not have

20     questions for Mr. Vasilic.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I was waiting for the French translation

22     to be completed.

23             Yes, Mr. Vasilic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in

24     this case has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that is, through

25     your written witness statement.  And now you'll be cross-examined by the

Page 39916

 1     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do you understand that?

 2             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.  Good morning to you.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vasilic.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   At paragraph 2 of your statement you refer to statements you've

 8     given to the Office of the Prosecution in the past, but I think your

 9     dates are a little off.  One of the statements you gave to the Office of

10     the Prosecutor was a tape-recorded statement that you gave in October of

11     2002 in Zvornik.  That's right, isn't it?  You spoke to the OTP on tape

12     in 2002?

13        A.   It is correct that I talked to the representatives of this

14     Tribunal, investigators, but I don't remember the year.  I think it was

15     soon after this Tribunal was established, that it's actually the 1990s, I

16     think.  It was in Zvornik at that, at the courthouse.  After a while in

17     Zvornik at the Vidikovac motel.  I think my headphones are going to fall

18     off.

19        Q.   Well, that -- the interview that you gave to the OTP, the second

20     one, was tape recorded and the transcript clearly indicates that the date

21     was October of 2002.  Do you agree at least that in 2002, 11 years ago,

22     your memory of events in 1992 was better than it is today?

23        A.   I'm not going to challenge the year because it's been a lot of

24     time since then, and I know that I talked to the investigators.  But the

25     content of that conversation was that then.  Perhaps somebody could

Page 39917

 1     remind me what the content was then and what it is now.  Maybe I could

 2     give an explanation for that.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 4     be asked to come closer to the microphone.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vasilic, could you come closer to the microphone

 6     so that the interpreters could hear you better?  Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 9        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, don't worry about the contents of that interview

10     now.  Rest assured, we will be going through some of the contents of that

11     interview in the examination.  Right now I just wanted to get some basic

12     facts about it.  And do you agree that your memory of events in 1992 --

13     sorry, your memory of events from 1992 was better 11 years ago than it is

14     today?

15        A.   Well, I assume that some details were fresher in my mind then,

16     but I don't know what this is about.  It is certain that my memory was

17     fresher then than it is now.

18        Q.   Okay.  In your statement you explain that in late April 1992,

19     after Dragan Spasojevic left the police, you became commander of the

20     Zvornik Public Security Station.  Before that and before the war broke

21     out in Zvornik, you were an assistant commander in the Zvornik SJB;

22     right?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   And then, as you said in your statement, you became commander in

25     April 1992.  And then in early June 1992 you became the Zvornik SJB

Page 39918

 1     chief, replacing Milos Pantelic; right?

 2        A.   That's right too, but I don't know whether the date is accurate.

 3     It doesn't really matter.  But in principle, it is correct.

 4        Q.   And you resigned from the position of chief of the SJB and left

 5     the police in late July 1992; right?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   You speak at length in your statement about the arming and other

 8     preparations for war carried out by the Muslim side in Zvornik, and you

 9     contrast that with the Serb side.  You said that the Serbs "fully

10     believed that there would be no war and insisted on talks and agreement

11     with a view to resolving the problems peacefully."

12             So is it your position that the Serbs in Zvornik were not arming

13     or preparing for war?  Or do you accept that, in fact, both sides were

14     arming and preparing for war in Zvornik?

15        A.   Whether both sides were arming and preparing for war?  That's a

16     very delicate question.  It is one thing to prepare for war and to wage

17     it, and it's another thing to arm yourself and defend yourself.  The

18     Serbs -- well, I'm not saying that they were not arming themselves, but

19     the very fact that Serbs trusted the JNA, believing that they would be

20     the guarantor of safety and security and of averting a war, that makes it

21     more likely for them not to be arming themselves to such a high degree at

22     all.

23             On the other hand, you have this striking statement, astonishing

24     statement, by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, who says that he is -- that he is

25     prepared to sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That

Page 39919

 1     fact in itself says who is in favour of which variant.  The Serbs were in

 2     favour of the survival of Yugoslavia, including Bosnia-Herzegovina, both

 3     the Serbs and Muslims, whereas the leaders of the SDA were --

 4        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

 5        A.   -- in favour of the secession of this republic.  That would be my

 6     answer.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to ask you to try to focus your answers as

 8     much as possible on the specific question I ask because my time is

 9     limited.

10             Now, in your answer you're saying:  "I'm not saying that they

11     weren't arming themselves," referring to the Serb side.  In 2002, you

12     told the Office of the Prosecutor that both the Serb side and the Muslim

13     side were arming and preparing for war, and I refer to 65 ter 25215,

14     pages 46, 47, and 71.  That's right, isn't it?

15        A.   I'm not denying it now either.  Serbs -- certain Serbs got ahold

16     of weapons in a certain way and that's what I said before too, but I'm

17     talking about the people as a whole, the people as a whole.  There are

18     extreme individuals, extremists, in the -- within the Serb people too,

19     and they showed their true face during the course of this war too.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could I have Exhibit P2591 on the screen, please.

22        Q.   And while that's coming up, Mr. Vasilic, you are aware that in

23     the months before the conflict broke out the Serbian municipality of

24     Zvornik passed a decision forming a Serbian municipality which listed

25     territories that formed part of that Serbian municipality?  You're aware

Page 39920

 1     of that decision, aren't you?

 2        A.   No, I was not aware of that decision.  I heard that there was

 3     talk about the division of Zvornik between the Serbs and Muslims, where

 4     Serbs were a majority, that should belong to the Serbs, and where Muslims

 5     were a majority, that should belong to them.  But as for an official

 6     decision, I do not remember having stated anything like that.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let me remind you of what you said in 2002 when you were

 8     shown this document that's on the screen before you now.  You were asked:

 9             "Do you recall this decision?"

10             And this is at page 44.  And you said:

11             "Just a second.  I heard of it but I didn't see it before."

12             That's what you told the OTP in 2002 and that's accurate; right?

13     You'd heard of this decision?

14        A.   Well, it's possible that I heard of it.  I'm not going to say it

15     never existed, but I'm just telling you that the intention was -- I mean

16     that I heard that political representatives were discussing a peaceful

17     settlement, ultimately a division of the municipality of Zvornik.  I'm

18     not denying I said that either, but allow for the possibility that I've

19     forgotten.  I don't know who compiled this decision.  I did not take part

20     in this, so it is possible that I heard of it and that I forgot about it

21     in the meantime.

22        Q.   Now I'd like you to look at the territories listed under item 2,

23     which is in the middle of the page in the B/C/S, and it's at the bottom

24     of page 1 and the top of page 2 in the English.  And I'm going to remind

25     you of what you said in 2002 about this.  You were asked:

Page 39921

 1             "In part 2 of this, the areas that were comprised Serbian

 2     municipality of Zvornik, that is around 63 areas, can you tell me what

 3     proportion of the municipality that would have made up?  Do you

 4     understand?  Can you tell me, looking at these areas that are listed,

 5     what percentage or proportion of the municipality would be covered by

 6     those areas listed?"

 7             And you say:

 8             "In a territorial sense?"

 9             And the investigator says:

10             "Yes."

11             And you say:

12             "I would say 80 per cent."

13             Now, that's what you told the OTP in 2002 with respect to the

14     territories listed under item 2 of the document on the screen in front of

15     you, that those areas comprise roughly 80 per cent of the territory of

16     Zvornik.  That's right, isn't it?

17        A.   I don't want to deal with percentages because I'm not an expert

18     in that field, but I know for sure that in the territory of the

19     municipality of Zvornik, land, as such, was owned by Serbs for the most

20     part.  In relation to land ownership by Muslims.  Although the ratio of

21     Serb and Muslim population is 60 to 40 per cent in favour of the Muslims.

22     So now if we were to look at the map of the municipality of Zvornik from

23     Bijeljina towards this side, if we're going to look at the area, you know

24     you can paint the map and then you'd see that most of this territory

25     would belong to the Serbs if that kind of agreement were reached on that

Page 39922

 1     kind of division, 70, 60, whatever.  Don't take my word for it.  I'm not

 2     a land surveyor or something.  I mean, it's one thing to talk under these

 3     circumstances and it was a different situation to talk in that situation.

 4     You know, I guess you understand what I'm trying to say.

 5        Q.   Not exactly.  Are you saying you didn't tell the truth in 2002

 6     when you talked to the Office of the Prosecutor?

 7        A.   No, I did not say that I was not telling the truth, but I did not

 8     know whether it was 80 or 60 per cent.  Maybe that just came out, you

 9     know, uncontrolled.  To this day I don't know what the ratio would be, if

10     there were to be this kind of division, what would belong to the Serb

11     side and what would belong to the Muslim side.  Then it would have to be

12     dealt with by experts from that field.  So the then-politicians or

13     leaders would agree in order to find a compromise.

14        Q.   Well, let me ask you then about some of the specific territories

15     listed in item 2 here.  Sopotnik, which was listed in item 2, that was a

16     majority Muslim village.  According to the 1991 census there were

17     189 Muslims and 68 Serbs; right?  That was a Muslim village

18     predominantly?

19        A.   Sopotnik, there are two Sopotniks, a Muslim Sopotnik and a Serb

20     Sopotnik.  And when these people asked me about that, I assume that I

21     said probably the Serb part of Sopotnik would belong to the Serbs.  Not

22     at any moment did it cross my mind that the Muslim part should belong to

23     Serb Sopotnik.  And finally, after all, allow me to say that I'm not a

24     politician.  I did not take part in the creation of these talks.  I did

25     not take part in these talks.  I was a policeman --

Page 39923

 1        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

 2        A.   -- who possibly answered these questions.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 4     be asked to come closer to the microphone.  Thank you.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 6        Q.   You've been asked again to move closer to the microphone so the

 7     interpreters can hear you.

 8        A.   [In English] Okay.

 9        Q.   Right now I'm just asking you about the ethnic make-up of some of

10     these villages.  Donji Grbavci, that was also a majority Muslim village?

11     846 Muslims and 206 Serbs; right?

12        A.   [Interpretation] Which Donji Grbavci?  What is meant by

13     Donji Grbavci?  There are villages and there are hamlets, Hajdarevici,

14     Lupici, but also there are Serb villages that are linked there,

15     Kitovnice, part of Jardan.  I have already given you an answer.  Please

16     don't.  I know what the ratio is of the population in the municipality of

17     Zvornik.  It was about 60 per cent in favour of the Muslims and 40

18     per cent in favour of the Serbs.  Perhaps there was 1 or 2 percentage

19     points accounting for some other ethnic communities.  But for you to ask

20     me about the percentage of the population in different villages, I mean I

21     really cannot answer those questions for you.  Although I might have said

22     something over there, but I'm not the one who was doing that arithmetic

23     and came up with a solution.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, I tender the pages that contain the

25     passages I read out to the witness regarding his comments on this

Page 39924

 1     document.  It's pages 43 and 44 of 65 ter 251 -- 25215, sorry.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6405, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  If you're -- if you are tendering this exhibit in

 6     the future, I'd like to see the passage as well.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Certainly.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Vasilic, you are also aware, although you don't mention

 9     this in your statement, that the Zvornik Crisis Staff declared a state of

10     war in Zvornik on the 6th of April, 1992.  That's something else you said

11     in 2002 to the OTP; right?

12        A.   Possibly, I don't remember.  But as far as I can remember,

13     Republika Srpska -- rather, at the time what was the name of

14     Republika Srpska?  The Republic of the Serb people, was it, in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Possibly I said that for Zvornik in view of the

16     Crisis Staff, that it existed.  So I found that logical.  If there is a

17     Crisis Staff and if there is shooting, then nothing different can be said

18     except that there was a state of war.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25215, specifically

20     page 60.

21        Q.   AND, Mr. Vasilic, you were shown the document in which the

22     Crisis Staff declared a state of war in Zvornik, which is P3154 in this

23     case.  And you were asked:

24             "Do you recall the declaration of the state of war in Zvornik?"

25             And you said:

Page 39925

 1             "I didn't see it.  I heard of it because you know of my position

 2     at the time."

 3             What you told the OTP in 2002 was that you hadn't seen the

 4     decision but you'd heard of it because of your position in the police at

 5     the time; right?

 6        A.   I'm not denying that.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In lines 9 onwards where the

10     witness spoke about the state of war, it was not recorded that

11     Republika Srpska did not declare a state of war.  [In English] Before

12     the --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             THE ACCUSED:  -- "possibly I said for Zvornik ..."

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, not denying something is different than accepting

18     it.  Do you accept that you heard about the declaration of the state of

19     war in Zvornik at the time?

20        A.   If I stated that then, I'm telling you now after all these

21     years -- well, probably, probably that is the case.  I'm not denying

22     that.  I mean, I cannot remember each and every word that I uttered.  I'm

23     not denying that.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this page as well in light of the

25     witness's somewhat ambivalent answer.

Page 39926

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add this page.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Vasilic, you said in your statement in paragraph 21 that

 5     in the period leading up to the outbreak of war in Zvornik, the Serbs

 6     formed village guards on their own initiative, but you also knew that on

 7     the 8th of April, 1992, the Crisis Staff ordered a general mobilisation

 8     in Zvornik.  You were aware of that order too, weren't you?

 9        A.   I don't recall that.  It's possible.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 63 of this document.

11        Q.   And again, Mr. Vasilic, you were shown the general mobilisation

12     order, which is P3381 in this case, and you said -- you were informed:

13             "This is an order on general mobilisation."

14             And you were asked:

15             "Mr. Vasilic, do you recall this order?"

16             And you said:

17             "The same as the previous one, heard of it, and I didn't see it."

18             Do you accept now that you heard about the general mobilisation

19     order at the time?

20        A.   If I said so back then, I accept it, although I don't recall

21     that.  I accept it.  There you go.

22        Q.   Okay.  You refer to Arkan's activities and his presence in

23     Zvornik at the outbreak of the conflict.  And one thing that you don't

24     say in your statement that you've said before was that when Arkan's men

25     were in Zvornik, for the first four or five days they were based in the

Page 39927

 1     Alhos building in Karakaj, in the same building where the police and

 2     Crisis Staff were also based.  That's correct, isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.  But would you kindly allow me to clarify something?

 4     President Karadzic read my statement.  He read out the summary.  I would

 5     kindly ask for specific details so that I can explain.  As for Arkan's

 6     unit being at Alhos with us, it doesn't mean, it cannot mean, that we

 7     thought they were precious and could hardly await their arrival.  But

 8     might makes right and they did not bother to ask for our opinion.  It is

 9     a fact that they were in the nearby offices and we were across the hall.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that they

13     represented the force that did not ask for our opinion --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Might makes right.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please kindly slow down

16     and approach the microphone.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, you're again being asked to speak -- to move closer

19     to the microphone.

20             Now, at paragraph 29 of your statement you said that on the

21     9th of April, 1992, Arkan and his forces relieved the blockade of

22     Zvornik, and you referred to Arkan and his unit taking over command.

23     When you testified in the Grujic case, however, you said that the town of

24     Zvornik was liberated by the Zvornik TO "with the help of Arkan's men."

25     That's 65 ter 25217 at page 108.

Page 39928

 1             That's right, isn't it, Mr. Vasilic?  This was a joint operation

 2     involving not just Arkan's men but the Zvornik TO as well?

 3        A.   I'll respond to the question but do allow me to finish.  Arkan

 4     with his unit -- well, Pejo, his man, asked of us to have some of our men

 5     at their disposal since a day or two previously we could not ensure that,

 6     he cursed us and left.  And then that day or that date, on the 2nd, Arkan

 7     came with his men and then he carried out this additional manning of the

 8     unit he planned to establish comprising the people of Karakaj and

 9     Celopek.  And so he did the job in Zvornik with them.  They were Serbs,

10     locals who were in some kind of -- well, they were the people who stood

11     guard on the Serb side.  Later on, when the TO was organised and when the

12     VRS was organised, certainly those people were made part of the VRS, and

13     I have in mind the inhabitants of Zvornik.

14        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, it was a very simple question.  I'm going to ask it

15     again because you didn't answer it.  In the Grujic case you said that the

16     town of Zvornik was liberated by the Territorial Defence of the town of

17     Zvornik with the help of Arkan's men.

18             Were you telling the truth when you gave that testimony?

19        A.   I always tell the truth.  If only I were always allowed to

20     explain.  I told the gentlemen in Belgrade, especially attorney Todorovic

21     when he tried to explain that there had been an aggression carried out,

22     but it's not possible for a hundred or 200 volunteers from Serbia could

23     present such a force that would be able to carry out an act of

24     aggression, whereas the Serbs in Zvornik municipality had several

25     thousand of our men who were later on placed in military formations.

Page 39929

 1     Well, that is why I'm trying to explain it to you now.  It is a fact that

 2     they were members of the TO, but it was not organised then.  But I simply

 3     use the expression "members of the TO."

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could I have 65 ter 25217, page 108 of the

 5     English and page 73 of the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   Okay, Mr. Vasilic, this is right at the bottom of the page in

 7     both languages.  You're being asked about the operation in the town of

 8     Zvornik and you were asked:

 9             "What was it liberated from and who liberated it?"

10             And you answer:

11             "It was liberated by the Territorial Defence of the town of

12     Zvornik."

13             And the Judge says:

14             "Face the Panel."

15             And then you add:

16             "With the help, with the help of Arkan's men."

17             I'm going to ask you one more time.  That's what you said in the

18     Grujic case and that's the truth; right?

19        A.   It is true that Arkan, with his men, led the operation and that

20     the people from Karakaj assisted him.  That would be the real truth.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this page.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6406, Your Honours.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:

Page 39930

 1        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, this isn't discussed anywhere in your statement, but

 2     you are aware, are you not, that during the time when you were police

 3     station commander and police station chief, there were some terrible,

 4     terrible crimes committed against Muslims in Zvornik; right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to go through some of the things you've said

 7     about these crimes in your prior statements and ask you to confirm them.

 8     So in 2002 -- first I'm going to ask you about the massacre in Drinjaca

 9     at the end of May 1992.  And you told the OTP in 2002 that you received

10     information from the reserve police officers in Drinjaca that a TO unit

11     under the command of Lieutenant Martic executed a group of Muslim

12     prisoners in the school playground in Drinjaca.  And that's pages 114,

13     115, and 119.

14             That's right, isn't it?

15        A.   It is true that the event took place.  It is true that a certain

16     Lieutenant, not Martic but Matic, that person had a group of men who came

17     from outside Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They went to the area of Drinjaca

18     where they carried out independent operations.  In their operations, of

19     course, some inhabitants of Drinjaca participated, but I don't know who

20     they were.  It all went through this kid, Lieutenant Matic.  Later on I

21     inquired who he was and where he had come from.  I was told he was a

22     lieutenant and that he was somewhere in the area of Vitinice -- or,

23     actually, that he was killed there.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter -- sorry -- yeah,

25     65 ter 25215, page 114.

Page 39931

 1        Q.   You were asked about the killing in Drinjaca and you said -- you

 2     were asked:

 3             "What can you tell us?"

 4             And you say, this is at the bottom of the page:

 5             "I don't remember precisely who informed me.  Was it Ljubisav,

 6     Ljubisa, or someone else, but we did receive information that the men

 7     were taken to the stadium and they were lined, so to speak, lined up just

 8     like in the army, and then in the end Territorial Defence member

 9     Lieutenant Martic and his group of people shot them.  I'm not sure if

10     that's the appropriate expression, but the women were present when that

11     happened.  They were watching."

12             And then at page 119 you were asked:

13             "You said that Martic and his men were responsible, so how do

14     you ..." and then there's something incomprehensible.

15             And then you say:

16             "I learned -- I heard that from the police officers who worked

17     there and that was also the rumour in the town."

18             Now, Mr. Vasilic, Lieutenant Martic, it may have been a mistake

19     and it's actually Lieutenant Matic, but you say clearly that he was a

20     Territorial Defence unit commander.  And that's true, right, that was the

21     information you had?

22        A.   First and foremost, he was the commander of his unit, of his

23     group of men.  They were joined by some people from the area.  I think

24     that the TO commander was a different person.  I don't know his name, but

25     the person in question was from the area.  I could even speculate that he

Page 39932

 1     was a certain Petrovic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have a Serbian version of

 3     this so that the witness could see his own words in the Serbian language

 4     and what they were?

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  We only have English.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, you also told the OTP that Lieutenant Matic -- that

 7     you'd heard that he was an active officer of the JNA and that he came to

 8     the area after withdrawing from Slovenia and Croatia; right?

 9        A.   I don't remember.  It's possible.  I think after so much time I

10     really -- I know that he was not from Zvornik municipality and I never

11     saw him.  I heard his name was Lieutenant Matic and that he was not even

12     from BiH.

13        Q.   Okay --

14        A.   I can't even deny that he was a military person.  I really can't

15     say.

16        Q.   Well, let me remind --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript.  The witness did

18     not say "I can't deny."  He said "I cannot assert that he was not a

19     military person of the VJ."

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:

21        Q.   Okay.  So let me remind you of what you said in 2002, and that's

22     on the previous page, page 118, near the bottom you were asked about

23     Lieutenant Martic or Matic, as we now know, and his unit.  And you said:

24             "I don't know for sure but I heard that he was an active officer

25     of JNA and that he came to this area after withdrawing from Slovenia and

Page 39933

 1     Croatia."

 2             And then you were asked:

 3             "At the time, where did his unit fit in?  What was it ..."

 4             And you said on the next page:

 5             "I think that at that time brigade was still not formed.  I

 6     believe that time that Territorial Defence units were organising

 7     different settlements or locations, their companies, platoons, and so on,

 8     but they were all subordinated to the Territorial Defence commander."

 9             So --

10        A.   Yes, that's right, and I say so now as well.

11        Q.   Okay.  And you also told the OTP that:

12             "At the time there was a reserve police station located in the

13     Drinjaca Dom Kulture commanded by Ljubisav Petrovic."

14             That's right, isn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  And also in 2002, the investigators told you that their

17     information about this massacre was that the males who were executed were

18     held in the Drinjaca Dom Kulture with the women and children and then the

19     men were taken out and executed on the nearby playground.  And you

20     responded that:

21             "If that was the case, the police who were stationed in the

22     Dom Kulture in Drinjaca must have known all the details of this

23     massacre."

24             And that's right, isn't it, if the massacre took place right

25     outside the Dom Kulture, the police officers stationed in Dom Kulture

Page 39934

 1     would have known all about it?

 2        A.   If you allow me, I was asked, first of all, and they asserted

 3     that it actually happened in the cultural hall and that the reserve

 4     police station was located in the building, which is incorrect.  The

 5     reserve police or milicija station, as it was called then, as far as I

 6     know was placed in the cultural hall in Drinjaca.  The cultural hall is

 7     physically separate from the school.  And if the policemen were there, if

 8     not -- if they were not able to see it, they could have heard it.  But

 9     you will allow that I said earlier in an investigation and that it was

10     conveyed by Ljubisav or Ljubisa Petrovic that it took place under such

11     circumstances so not in the cultural hall and not immediately next to the

12     cultural hall.  Now, whether they saw it, whether they observe it from

13     somewhere, I really can't say.  When it comes to the reserve police

14     station, since we are on that topic, any bigger local commune or several

15     local communes across Zvornik municipality had reserve police stations --

16        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

17        A.   -- and joint reserve police stations.

18        Q.   I'm not asking you about the structure of reserve police stations

19     in Zvornik.  I'd like to ask you to please focus on the specific

20     questions I ask.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 120 of this document.

22        Q.   And here you were asked -- you were told by the investigator:

23             "The information we have is that the execution was -- those

24     people were held in 'Dom Kulture,' and that it would have included men

25     and women, and that men were taken outside and executed on a basketball

Page 39935

 1     court outside 'Dom Kulture' in groups of about 10.  Can you tell us

 2     something about that?"

 3             And you say:

 4             "I don't know about those details."

 5             And you were asked:

 6             "If that was the case, it was just outside 'Dom Kulture,' it

 7     would have been just outside your reserve police office; is that

 8     correct?"

 9             And you said:

10             "It was surely not far."

11             And the question was asked:

12             "It was on a basketball court.  You know the basketball court I'm

13     talking about?"

14             And you answer:

15             "I don't think there are two.  There is a playground or field or

16     football field in front of the school.  I think that's the only one.  Is

17     it a basketball court or something else, I don't know."

18             And then the investigator says:

19             "So the information we have is that they were executed there.  If

20     that was the case, your police would have to be well aware of what took

21     place."

22             And you answered:

23             "Most probably they were there and they were watching the whole

24     thing from the building.  They must know the details."

25             That's what you said in 2002 and that's the truth; right?

Page 39936

 1        A.   If I said so, although I cannot recall the details, whether it

 2     was precisely conveyed word for word, then I do not dispute it if the

 3     policemen were there.  If they were there, if they could not see every

 4     detail, then at least they could have heard what was going on.  I do not

 5     deny that.  But I can't say that it was so word for word.  I don't know

 6     what the distance is, and I reply that any school had some kind of pitch

 7     and it would be one rather than two.

 8             Now, whether the policemen were there, how many were there, how

 9     many were in the field, I don't know.  If they were there, they could

10     have observed -- seen it.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vasilic --

12        A.   As far as I recall --

13        Q.   -- your answer is clear.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this page.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll add this page.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:

17        Q.   And at page 115 of this transcript, you were asked about what

18     happened after this, and I'd like to read the question and answer to you.

19     You were asked:

20             "So what happened to these people being killed?  Did you make any

21     inquiry afterwards?"

22             And you said:

23             "Nothing was done there."

24             And another question started to be asked and then you continued,

25     you said:

Page 39937

 1             "Except ... nothing but again, typical conversations with leading

 2     men in the staff and leading politicians.  It was said that things could

 3     no longer go that way, could be run that way, and that that was no longer

 4     war.  But it was much more horrific than a regular war.  There was no

 5     response.  There were no questions asked.  All normal people were very

 6     surprised and very depressed by this."

 7             And that's the truth, isn't it, Mr. Vasilic?  You raised this

 8     massacre with leading politicians and leading men in the staff.  There

 9     was no response and nothing was done; right?

10        A.   I broached this topic with the gentleman in the TO staff so that

11     we would see what happened, why it happened, and how it developed, and

12     who was responsible.  However, the Chief of Staff promised to investigate

13     it.  As for other facilities where people were being taken to, I insisted

14     that people could not be taken to unless it is known who was being

15     brought in, by whom, and why --

16        Q.   I'm not asking you about other facilities now.  I'm asking you

17     about this massacre in Drinjaca.  And in 2002 you said you spoke to

18     leading politicians and leading men in the staff and there was no

19     response and nothing was done.  Was that the truth that you said in 2002

20     or were you lying?

21        A.   Madam, I never lied.  Please don't use that term.  I'm telling

22     you, and I repeat, that I discussed the topic with the TO staff chief,

23     Mr. Marko Pavlovic.  It was Marko Pavlovic at the time and I didn't know

24     what other names he went by.  I didn't know who he was or where he had

25     come from.  He promised to investigate the case.  Under the Law on the

Page 39938

 1     Armed Forces of the former Yugoslavia, all acts committed by members of

 2     the army or Territorial Defence are to be investigated by the competent

 3     organs of the unit or district.  That is why I no longer dealt with the

 4     issue.

 5        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, you say you never lied, but you just said twice now

 6     that Marko Pavlovic promised to investigate this incident, and in 2002

 7     you said there was no response and nothing was done.  One of those

 8     statements is a lie, which one?

 9        A.   I ask you again, it's not a lie, do not use that term.  I told

10     you he promised me.  Now, as for him not doing anything, you should ask

11     him about it.  I was in no position to force Mr. Marko Pavlovic or arrest

12     him for not having done it.  If you will allow me, I can tell you about

13     my past and my relationship with such forces that were killing in the

14     field.

15        Q.   I'm not asking you about that --

16        A.   Because no one would listen to me on that score.

17        Q.   Is it your position now that Marko Pavlovic promised to

18     investigate this incident, but in fact did nothing?  Is that what you're

19     saying?

20        A.   That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you and to explain to you.

21     The man promised it would be investigated to see what happened, how it

22     happened, and why.  It was up to the security organs to investigate the

23     case.  Whether anything was done, I don't know.  I have no feedback.

24     That's why I said the result is zero, nothing was done.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

Page 39939

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 12, the witness said that

 3     it was up to the security organ and he had a security organ, that is the

 4     TO or Mr. Pavlovic, that is his security organ, which was not recorded.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I don't know what part is the -- what witness

 6     actually said.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 12 of page 68 --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, because I think you seem to have added your

 9     explanation.  So, Mr. Vasilic --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  We can have the

11     recording reviewed.  It was up to the security organ, and what's missing

12     is that he had a security organ.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If you stopped there it was clear, but you

14     added some explanation as if those explanation were also his words.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're right, but I wanted to

16     explain the meaning which was lost.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm that, Mr. Vasilic?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Let's continue, Ms. Gustafson.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

22             I tender this page of the transcript.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add this page as well.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, you also told the OTP in 2002 what you knew about

Page 39940

 1     the execution of men from the Djulici area, in the Karakaj technical

 2     school, and Gero's slaughter-house.  And you said that you heard about

 3     the killings of these men immediately after these events because this was

 4     the talk of the town at the time.  That's right, isn't it?

 5        A.   After the events themselves, I did not hear that and I can't have

 6     stated anything of the kind.  I know how those persons came to the

 7     technical school, if we're talking about the people from Djulici, or

 8     rather, Bijeli Potok.

 9        Q.   That's not what I'm asking you about right now.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 96 of this document.

11        Q.   And at the bottom you were asked:

12             "Now, this information that you've received about the killing of

13     people at Karakaj technical school or Gero's, who did you receive that

14     from?"

15             And you said:

16             "It was the rumour of the town."

17             And on the next page you were asked:

18             "But whom did you receive it from?"

19             You said:

20             "I don't remember!  It was too long ago."

21             And you were asked:

22             "When, when did you hear of that?"

23             And you said:

24             "That was talked about for about half a year, and I guess I heard

25     about it immediately after the events had taken place, and the more free

Page 39941

 1     the town became, the more people talked about this."

 2             Now, that's true, isn't it, Mr. Vasilic, this was the talk of the

 3     town immediately after the events and you heard about it immediately

 4     after the events; right?

 5        A.   That's a mistake.  It's a mistake made in the explanation.  I

 6     said that I had heard of these misdeeds after leaving the police, that

 7     is, a few months later.  In other words, I didn't hear it immediately,

 8     after a day or two or five, but a few months later.  That's when I heard

 9     of Celopek, the technical school centre, after the arrest of the

10     paramilitaries who were taken to prison.  That's how it was.  For a

11     couple of months, it was the whisper of the town rather than the talk

12     because no one dared speak out loud about it.  Even after those persons

13     had been arrested, no one dared speak openly.

14        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, the Chamber just heard this morning from another

15     Defence witness who confirmed that this is what everybody was talking

16     about immediately after the events, the killing of hundreds of men from

17     the Karakaj technical school, and he said that he heard about it within

18     days.  You were either the police station commander or the police chief

19     at the time these killings took place.  Are you saying that you didn't

20     know what everyone was talking about in Zvornik at the time, about this

21     horrible crime?

22        A.   That is correct --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get a reference for this?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where is a reference to what the

Page 39942

 1     previous witness said and how he said it?

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't have it at my finger-tips.  It was my

 3     recollection from sitting in court this morning, but I will find it.

 4        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, I'm not sure we got your entire answer.  Are you --

 5     do you agree that you as police station commander or police station chief

 6     did not know about this massacre even though this was what everyone was

 7     talking about in Zvornik at the time?

 8        A.   Let me explain.  The events or the massacre at the secondary

 9     school centre at Karakaj or the Celopek case, I faced Mr. Sredo Vukovic

10     in Belgrade at the special court and I faced Mr. Petko Panic and they

11     changed their statement given to that same court because they stated that

12     they had thought that I knew, or that Sredo Vukovic said that I had told

13     that certain people were to be transferred to Celopek from Zvornik --

14        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

15        A.   -- in no case --

16        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you.  This is not responsive to my

17     question.  You're being asked about what you knew and when you knew it.

18     I'm not asking you about what other people said in other trials.  It's

19     about what you knew and when you knew it.

20        A.   I'm telling you now so you can find the documents and see that

21     I'm not lying, that I'm telling the truth.  I did not know about these

22     events.  I found out several months later, and even then people whispered

23     about it.  The people who knew immediately either were involved or

24     something else.  There were about -- you almost -- ten groups of

25     paramilitaries.  You didn't dare breathe let alone comment.  I don't know

Page 39943

 1     who had that much courage; I didn't.  If I had known of such things, you

 2     can trust me that I wouldn't have remained silent.  When I exhausted all

 3     possibilities of removing the paramilitaries, I asked President Grujic

 4     that --

 5        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

 6        A.   -- that we should go to meet President Karadzic --

 7        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

 8        A.   -- and apply for help.  That's your reply:  I didn't know.

 9        Q.   I'm going to ask you once again to just answer the question I ask

10     you.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I would like to tender pages 100 -- 96 and 97 and

12     have that added to the existing exhibit number.  And I note the time.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll do that.  Yes, we'll have a break for

14     45 minutes --

15             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED:  The witness said:  "And we went to meet President

18     Karadzic and ask for assistance," not "we should go," line 19.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm that, Mr. Vasilic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And, Your Honours, just -- Dr. Karadzic has asked

23     for the transcript reference for the question I put.  It was page 7,

24     lines 12 to 22 of this morning.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 39944

 1             Mr. Tieger, do you have anything?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I just understood the precise line reference was 17

 3     to 23.  That was the only thing I had in mind.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             We'll break for 45 minutes and resume at 20 past 1.00 -- I'm

 6     sorry, 20 past 12.00 -- oh, 20 past 1.00.  I'm carried away.

 7                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, before the break I was asking you about your

12     knowledge of the massacre of men from Djulici at the Karakaj technical

13     school and Gero's slaughter-house.  I have one more question about this

14     event, these events, which was -- which is to have you confirm what you

15     said to the OTP in 2002, which was that nothing was done to investigate

16     these killings.  That's right, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   At paragraph 46 of your statement you refer to events in Celopek.

19     Somewhat elliptically you state that the reserve police members who

20     provided security there never informed you about events that took place

21     there.  You're talking here about the Celopek Dom Kulture, where reserve

22     police officers guarded some Muslim civilians who were kept there; right?

23        A.   Right.

24        Q.   And you testified in the Grujic case that those Muslims were

25     taken to the Celopek Dom Kulture on Drinatrans buses on the orders of

Page 39945

 1     either the TO staff or the interim government and they were escorted

 2     there by police official Miko Miljanovic.  That's what you said and

 3     that's correct; right?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you about the paramilitary groups in Zvornik.

 6     You described them as being too powerful for the police to oppose.  And I

 7     want to ask you about one of those units which was known as Gogic's men.

 8     Now, you told the OTP in 2002 that they were brought in when

 9     Milos Pantelic was the police chief, they wore police uniforms, and they

10     were paid by the municipality within the police organisation.  That's

11     accurate, isn't it?

12        A.   It's accurate, but I would like to explain that if I may.

13        Q.   If you could briefly -- if there's something you feel you need to

14     explain to make sense of your answer, please do so briefly.

15        A.   Very briefly.  Just that this Trial Chamber knows where those

16     people came from.  When Milos Pantelic became the station chief, he

17     brought these people with him.  And I asked him, "Who are these people?

18     Where are they from?"  And he answered, "These are my men, they are under

19     my control."  And then I said, "There can't be two police forces in one

20     police station."  When they came they were wearing camouflage uniforms

21     and on their shoulders there was a police patch.  I insisted that these

22     people be removed, and he answered that I had nothing to do with them,

23     that they were under his authority, and that he was in charge.  I was

24     trying to get rid of these paramilitaries and I included the Gogic's men

25     in that group.  I asked the people from Mali Zvornik and Serbia for

Page 39946

 1     assistance because they were -- most of them were from Serbia or almost

 2     all of them.  And once we nearly succeeded or --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once we succeeded but they

 5     returned.  As for the fact that they were paid by the municipality, we

 6     were all because it didn't function otherwise.  And Chief Pantelic

 7     insisted that a list be made of all police personnel and that these

 8     people be put on the list, and that's how they got paid.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:

10        Q.   Okay.  In your answer you referred several times to

11     Milos Pantelic telling you that Gogic's men were his men, they were under

12     his control, under his authority, and that, the fact that Gogic's men

13     were operating under the direct authority and control of the police chief

14     at the time, was one of the reasons that it was difficult for the police

15     to oppose this unit.  How could they oppose this unit if they were

16     operating under the direct authority of the police chief?  That's right,

17     isn't it?

18        A.   I don't understand the question.

19        Q.   You talk in your statement about how difficult it was for the

20     police to oppose these paramilitary units.  With respect to Gogic's men,

21     one of the reasons it was difficult to oppose them is because they were

22     operating under the authority and control of the police chief; right?

23        A.   I opposed them.  The others didn't because they expected me to

24     do, and naturally I did but Chief Pantelic insisted that they were under

25     his authority and that they reported exclusively to him.  And I said that

Page 39947

 1     there couldn't be two police forces.  Some people were to report both to

 2     me and him and others only to him.

 3        Q.   And one of the things that concerned you about this group and

 4     caused you to complain to Chief Pantelic was that Gogic's men were

 5     behaving in an obviously improper way.  That's what you told the OTP in

 6     2002 and that's true; right?

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   And you had fears about how Gogic's men would treat civilians,

 9     given your observations of them.  That's another thing you told the OTP

10     and that's true; right?

11        A.   It's true that people were -- the people were getting drunk, that

12     they were behaving arrogantly.  Simply, there was no -- they were out of

13     control.  They were present but they were not controlled.  And the same

14     could be expected from them as from the other paramilitaries who were

15     present, and I can tell this Trial Chamber that at the moment while

16     groups were coming in, the people thought that they were coming to help,

17     but then the population soon realised that they hadn't arrived for the

18     interest of the Serbian people but for their own interest and

19     frivolously.

20        Q.   Okay.  In your statement at paragraph 36 you said that you were

21     left to the mercy of these paramilitaries thanks to the poor or

22     non-existent communication with the relevant republican organs.  So my

23     question for you is this:  When was the first time that you communicated

24     to the republican MUP authorities the problems you were having with

25     paramilitaries?

Page 39948

 1        A.   I cannot give you a precise date.  First and foremost, we didn't

 2     have means of communication such as phone lines, telexes, and what have

 3     you.  It took quite some time to set up radio communications and other

 4     channels of communication.  People from the ministry did call at us, but

 5     it seems to me that the real reason was for them to take their families

 6     to Serbia where they were safe and that they just dropped by in passing.

 7     I explained to them that it was impossible to work here, even live here.

 8     And there were some promises made that they would forward this

 9     information up the ladder so that these paramilitaries be eliminated.

10     And I went to Mali Zvornik to ask for help with Brano Grujic, as I've

11     already said, but unsuccessfully --

12        Q.   I'm just going to stop you because we're moving away from the

13     question.  Let me remind you what you said in your Grujic case testimony.

14     You told the Trial Chamber that:

15             "MUP inspectors from the Sarajevo MUP came to Zvornik several

16     times in May and June 1992" and that you told them about the problems

17     that you were having.  That's true, isn't it?

18        A.   Well, that's what I said now too, that people from the ministry

19     came, but it was my impression that they called only in passing, to see

20     what was happening, and I explained my problem to them.  Later on when

21     communications became operational again, when it was possible to send out

22     documents, and I remember a report of mine where I described the problem

23     with paramilitaries in the Zvornik area, we were almost kept prisoner in

24     the headquarters, we were hiding from the paramilitaries headed by Zuco.

25     We were detained for five hours at gunpoint.  Well, that's quite enough

Page 39949

 1     for you to understand who you're dealing with.

 2        Q.   That's in your statement, and again you're moving away from the

 3     question I asked.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we have D1436, please.

 5        Q.   And while that's coming up, Mr. Vasilic, do you recall an

 6     inspection carried out at the Zvornik SJB by Dragomir Andan and

 7     Danilo Vukovic between -- sometime between the 29th of May and the

 8     12th of June, 1992?

 9             Mr. Vasilic, did you hear the question?  This document states

10     that an inspection was carried out by Dragomir Andan and Danilo Vukovic

11     from the two MUP inspectors of the Zvornik SJB between 29 May and

12     12 June 1992.  Do you recall this inspection?

13        A.   There was a number of -- there were a number of people.  There

14     was Mr. Andan and others, but I don't recall their names.  On two or

15     three occasions people came, but I don't remember the names.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  If we could go to page 5 of the English

17     and page 4 of the B/C/S, this is the part of the report discussing the

18     inspection in Zvornik and I'd like to direct you to the second paragraph

19     in the B/C/S, if it could be made as large as possible.  And this is the

20     first page in the B/C/S.

21        Q.   And the report states:

22             "Even on the territory of liberated area of Zvornik, the SJB

23     Zvornik comes across numerous problems regarding the visit and activities

24     by paramilitary formation in this area.  Besides the fact that the

25     government of Zvornik municipality has through its decision banned the

Page 39950

 1     establishment of a training camp run by Captain Dragan, military

 2     authorities have allowed that the same be formed in the area of Divici.

 3     According to the senior staff at the SJB Zvornik, the same have also

 4     usurped the premises of Vidikovac hotel and have gathered there a large

 5     number of persons criminally inclined, persons prone to robbery, terror,

 6     rapes, et cetera.  Due to such a decision and legalisation of the stay by

 7     criminally inclined persons in this area, the chief of SJB Zvornik,

 8     dissatisfied with the decision by military authorities, has submitted a

 9     request to be released from his duty."

10             And in the next paragraph it states:

11             "It is necessary to mention that these persons have on multiple

12     occasions confiscated tools, foreign currency and other valuables,

13     committed rapes, and even killed Muslim nationals who were ready for

14     exchange."

15             Mr. Vasilic, in your statement you attributed the problems with

16     paramilitaries to poor or non-existent communication with republican

17     organs.  But this report by a republican organ indicates that this is not

18     a communication problem.  The republican authorities are clearly aware of

19     the situation in Zvornik.  The problem, as stated in this report, is that

20     the military authorities in Zvornik are protecting and supporting the

21     paramilitaries.  That's the gist of the complaints of the Zvornik SJB as

22     recorded here; right?

23        A.   I don't know if the military authorities were supporting the

24     paramilitaries.  I can neither confirm nor deny that.  But they didn't

25     get approval from the military authorities to set up a training centre at

Page 39951

 1     Vidikovac, but Captain Dragan did that on his own.  He came to talk to me

 2     and Mr. Grujic.  And we told Captain Dragan, Frankly, if you came to

 3     fight for the Serbian people, go to headquarters [as interpreted] and see

 4     the commander rather than request computers and I don't know what kind of

 5     machines from us, that was out of the question.  And then he wanted to

 6     establish a training centre.  What has that got to do with us?  It's not

 7     for us to either support it or not support it.  The republican

 8     authorities were the ones who had the authority to give approval to that.

 9     I don't know who could have supported him.  General Mladic once expelled

10     him, he ordered him to leave Zvornik.

11        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

12             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.  [Interpretation] I apologise, but --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- it's about the transcript.  In

15     line 12, it was wrongly recorded that Mr. Vasilic told Captain Dragan to

16     go to headquarters, whereas the witness said "go to the brigade" rather

17     than "headquarters."

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:

20        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, you just stated that Captain Dragan did not have

21     authority from the military to set up his training camp.  This

22     contemporaneous document based on information from your SJB states

23     exactly the opposite in black and white, that Captain Dragan -- the

24     military authorities have allowed Captain Dragan to form his training

25     centre in Divic.  That's what you and other SJB officials told these

Page 39952

 1     republican MUP inspectors when they visited; right?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where does it say that Vasilic told

 4     that to Andan?

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That was my question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is no.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, this report also states that:

 9             "Due to this decision and the legalisation of the stay by

10     criminally inclined persons, the chief of the SJB has submitted a request

11     to be released from his duty."

12             Now this, late May/early June, the time of this inspection, that

13     was right around the time that Milos Pantelic resigned as SJB chief and

14     you took over; right?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   And at the beginning of the second paragraph I read out to you

17     that the report states that the paramilitaries had committed a number of

18     crimes, even killing Muslim nationals who were ready for exchange.

19             So it appears that you and other SJB officials were well aware

20     that these paramilitary groups were killing Muslims and you reported this

21     to the republican MUP authorities at the time of this inspection in late

22     May or early June; right?

23        A.   I don't know who Mr. Andan talked to and this gentleman who was

24     with him, but I explained this to you a moment ago about the killings in

25     Karakaj and Celopek.  As for individual murders in town, they did happen

Page 39953

 1     but I don't know who was involved.  Was it committed by Zuco's group,

 2     Captain Dragan's group, was it the White Eagles group?  These corpses

 3     that were found, there were Serbs who were killed too, it wasn't only

 4     Muslims.  I asked for an investigation team to go out on the scene along

 5     with an investigating judge.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, whether you knew precisely who the perpetrators

 7     were, it's clear from this report you were either the number one or the

 8     number two Zvornik police official at the time.  You must have known

 9     based on this report that paramilitaries were -- had been killing Muslim

10     nationals; right?

11        A.   In town, the town of Zvornik, there was no one else who could

12     have killed Muslims and Serbs - you have to add that too - apart from

13     paramilitaries.  I've said this to you very nicely.  While I was there, I

14     insisted that teams be set up and that on-site investigations be carried

15     out, and also that these cases should be resolved as such.

16        Q.   Okay.  In your statement at paragraphs 40 and 41 you state that

17     in mid-July 1992, you and Branko Grujic secretly went to Pale to inform

18     the leadership about the situation in Zvornik and seek help.  You state

19     that you did not personally speak with Dr. Karadzic but that Grujic told

20     you that President Karadzic was visibly surprised by the situation in

21     Zvornik and promised to send a police force to Zvornik.

22             Now, in the Grujic case you testified that this trip to Pale with

23     Mr. Grujic took place sometime in June 1992, not July.  And that's right,

24     isn't it, this trip took place in June?

25        A.   Oh, don't, I'm not sure whether it's June or July.  The important

Page 39954

 1     thing is that we went to see him, and, quite simply, I did not sleep, I

 2     hadn't slept for a long time, and I fell asleep when I was waiting to be

 3     seen by Karadzic and I slept through Brano Grujic's meeting and then he

 4     told me what he heard from Karadzic.  And please don't take my word for

 5     this, whether it's June or July, I might have said -- I don't know.  But

 6     I'm telling you all of this quite frankly, quite sincerely.  I mean, I'm

 7     not a person who keeps his mouth shut.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, I note that I'm nearing the end of

 9     my time.  I think I need about ten more minutes to conclude if that would

10     be all right.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I'm afraid you're past your time, but please carry

12     on.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

14        Q.   And, Mr. Vasilic, you said you weren't sure whether it was June

15     or July.  I'm going to put to you that it would have made no sense for

16     you and Mr. Grujic to go to Pale to see Dr. Karadzic in mid-July because,

17     in fact, Dr. Karadzic came to Zvornik with General Mladic and met with

18     the Zvornik authorities, including both you and Mr. Grujic, on the

19     30th of June.  That's right, isn't it?

20        A.   I know that he came, but the date, the month, I didn't give that

21     any thought.  I know that Mr. Karadzic came and that Mr. Mladic came.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have P1478, page 246 of the English

23     and 244 of the B/C/S.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  While we're waiting, wouldn't it be a good thing

25     to ask him whether the meeting in Pale was before or after Dr. Karadzic

Page 39955

 1     and General Mladic came?  That might help you find if it's in June or

 2     July since we know the date of that meeting with Mladic and Karadzic.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, that's why I put to him that it couldn't

 4     have been July because that wouldn't have made any sense given the

 5     presence of the accused in Zvornik on the 30th of June.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, this meeting took place on the 30th of June and you

 7     were present at it; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   This is an extract from General Mladic's military notebook

10     recording the conversation at that meeting.  And I'd like to go through

11     some of the comments in it with you.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 250 of the English and

13     248 of the B/C/S, this --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see whether the name of this

15     witness is mentioned at all or whether we have a completely different

16     Vasilic under number 16?

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  He's confirmed his presence at this meeting and I

18     will come to his name, and that's an inappropriate intervention.

19        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, this is Mr. Grujic speaking.  And you can see around

20     the middle of the page after he says that Marko Pavlovic accomplished

21     much until the formation of the brigade.  He says:

22             "In addition to major accomplishments, we also had many problems

23     from various formations, and Dencic called together these groups 'called

24     Zuca and similar,' Captain Dragan appeared out of nowhere requesting to

25     form a centre in Divic ..."

Page 39956

 1             That reference to Dencic, that's a reference to Nikola Dencic,

 2     the Eastern Bosnia Corps commander; right?

 3        A.   I'm not sure whether it's the same meeting, whether this Dencic

 4     is there or not.  I don't know.  There is a reference to Vasilic, there

 5     was a brigade commander, a certain Vasilic.  Just tell me where the

 6     meeting was held.  If it was held at the municipality, that's the one

 7     that I attended.  If it was at another location, then I was not there.

 8        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, right now I'm just asking you whether Mr. Grujic's

 9     reference to Dencic calling together groups such as Zuca is a reference

10     to Nikola Dencic, the Eastern Bosnian Corps commander.  Can you confirm

11     that?

12        A.   I don't know the gentleman, Mr. Dencic, I never met him

13     personally.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

15     the last part of his sentence in terms of that person's face.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:

17        Q.   You've been asked to repeat the last part of your sentence in

18     terms of that person's face.  Could you repeat that?

19        A.   I don't know Mr. Dencic and I could not recognise him by his face

20     anywhere because I don't know him.

21        Q.   Okay.  And Mr. Grujic says:

22             "Captain Dragan appeared out of nowhere requesting to form a

23     centre in Divic ..."

24             That's a reference to Captain Dragan's training centre in Divic;

25     right?

Page 39957

 1        A.   Let me tell you, then it's not the meeting that I attended.  At

 2     that meeting where I attended, General Mladic ordered that within

 3     24 hours he should not see Captain Dragan in that area.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's find out whether --

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 6        Q.   Mr. Vasilic --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Whether witness is present or not.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's exactly what I'm going to do.  Could we go

 9     to page 271 of the English, page 269 of the B/C/S, please.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I know whether this is the same

11     meeting because there is a considerable difference between pages 244

12     and --

13             JUDGE KWON:  We are coming to it.  I find it's page 246 in

14     English.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Page 271 of the English, page 269 of the B/C/S

16     states:

17             "Chief MUP Marinko Vasilic."

18        Q.   That's you, right, Mr. Vasilic?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's show him the place of meeting.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't believe the place is identified,

22     Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I think it --

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It just says:  "Meeting with representatives of

25     Zvornik municipality in Zvornik."  And -- but the notes are continuous,

Page 39958

 1     there are no new entries for these several pages --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But his name does not appear in the --

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It doesn't appear as a -- in the list of

 4     attendees, but the notes are continuous without a new heading until

 5     page 271 when this witness is recorded as speaking.  So from the notes it

 6     appears clear that the witness was, in fact, present and spoke although

 7     he wasn't listed as an attendee.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you put it to the witness?

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I did and he initially confirmed it.  I can put

10     it again.

11        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, do you recall now, can you confirm again that you

12     attended this meeting with Dr. Karadzic, General Mladic, and other

13     members of the Zvornik leadership?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could the date be

15     specified?  I do not believe that Mladic could have made 20 or 30 pages

16     of notes at a single meeting.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll go -- we can skim through the pages.  Let's

18     show him the first page first, that's 29th of September, 20 --

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  30th of June, 1992, page 246 of the English, 244

20     of the B/C/S.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:

23        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, this is 30th of June, 1992, in Zvornik --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, wait till we have B/C/S version.  Do

25     you have the page number, Ms. Gustafson?  Yes, it's coming.

Page 39959

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And there is a list of those present.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And then we continue from there.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Would Your Honour like me to ask a question now

 4     or I'm not sure --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 7        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, you can see a list of people present.  You are not

 8     listed here, although later in these notes you are listed as making

 9     comments.  Can you confirm that you were present at this meeting on the

10     30th of June, 1992, in Zvornik, with Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic?

11        A.   What can I say?  I can say that I don't know when this happened,

12     but there was this meeting on the premises of the Municipal Assembly of

13     Zvornik that was attended by Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic and some

14     other military personnel.  There was no mention of setting up a centre, a

15     training centre, that Captain Dragan had asked for.  Among other things,

16     General Mladic explicitly insisted that Captain Dragan -- because,

17     actually, I was the one who conveyed this to him at that meeting.  I

18     presented the problems that were involved, and I said --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

20     repeat the last part of his sentence because it was unclear.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat from "I presented the problems that

22     were involved ..."

23             And speak very slowly.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If necessary, I can repeat my

25     entire thought.  I was at this meeting at the Municipal Assembly of

Page 39960

 1     Zvornik that was attended by President Radovan Karadzic,

 2     General Ratko Mladic, and a number of other persons who I do not know.

 3     There were no requests of Captain Dragan's for setting up a training

 4     centre.  That did not happen there, but I know that General Ratko Mladic

 5     insisted that Captain Dragan leave the area of Zvornik within 24 hours,

 6     and that is what happened.  He took the Vidikovac hotel in Divic on his

 7     own and he got people together and started training them, painted some

 8     paint on their faces, and these uniforms that they wore, it would really

 9     frighten anyone.  How could anyone be happy to have them there?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Was Captain Dragan also present?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because he insisted.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Vasilic, there were a number of complaints by the Zvornik

15     municipal authorities, such as Mr. Grujic and Mr. Mijatovic, about

16     Captain Dragan and his training centre at this meeting; right?

17        A.   I don't know whether Mr. Jovo Mijatovic was present.

18     Branko Grujic was certainly present.  We all complained about the

19     presence and behaviour of these persons.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay, if we could go to page 270 of the English,

21     page 268 of the B/C/S.

22        Q.   This is Dr. Karadzic speaking and he says:

23             "It would be a shame to abolish the centre.  It would be easiest

24     for us to put the incident behind us.  The men at the centre are not like

25     Zuca and Crni."

Page 39961

 1             Now, first, the centre he's referring to is Captain Dragan's

 2     training centre; right?

 3        A.   I suppose so, I think so, but I do not remember all the things

 4     that Mr. Karadzic said or Mr. Mladic said.  They were there at that

 5     meeting for half an hour, an hour, more than that.  But I know, quite

 6     simply, that Mladic insisted that this person leave.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And then he says that the men at the training centre are

 8     not like Zuca and Crni, so it's clear he is generally familiar with Zuca

 9     and Crni.  And in your statement you said that you and Mr. Grujic went to

10     Pale in July to report problems by paramilitaries and that Grujic told

11     you that President Karadzic was visibly surprised by the situation in

12     Zvornik.  Now, that evidence doesn't fit with this contemporaneous record

13     from the 30th of June, which indicates that Dr. Karadzic was in Zvornik

14     on the 30th of June and was familiar with the paramilitary issues in

15     Zvornik; right?

16        A.   I don't know whether Mr. Karadzic knew Captain Dragan.  Maybe he

17     did, maybe he didn't, I don't know.  And whether he knew of Zuca or

18     whether he heard from someone else about Zuca or some Crni, I don't know,

19     and I don't know about his comments like that.  But all members of

20     paramilitary units, no exception whatsoever, were an evil that came to

21     the territory of the municipality of Zvornik.  I don't know of

22     Captain Dragan being any better than they are.  Maybe he is, but I don't

23     know and I do not have that impression.  Well, maybe he as a

24     person but -- well, you know, you will allow me to say when they paint

25     themselves with all that paint, it's like in Vietnam, and then imagine

Page 39962

 1     them with rifles too.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 271 of the English,

 3     page 269 of the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And again, Mr. Vasilic, this is -- we saw this a few moments ago.

 5     This is where you speak and your comments are recorded by General Mladic.

 6     On this page you talk about your personnel levels.  And if we could go to

 7     the next page, you state that:

 8             "Security conditions are at a satisfactory level."

 9             And your last comment is:

10             "I am very concerned by nicknames.  We have no idea who they are

11     or what they are doing."

12             Mr. Vasilic, in your statement and in your evidence today, you --

13     I believe in your evidence today you said that the police were almost

14     held prisoner by paramilitaries, they -- in your statement you say that

15     the police ran away from the paramilitaries in fear of their lives and

16     the paramilitaries were the absolute power in the town.  Now, that

17     evidence does not square with your comments when the supreme commander

18     and the chief of the Main Staff come to your municipality and you tell

19     them that security conditions are at a satisfactory level, and the only

20     mention you make of paramilitaries is that you are concerned by nicknames

21     because you don't know who they are or what they're doing.  That's right,

22     you're greatly exaggerating in your evidence the power the paramilitaries

23     had in Zvornik at the time; right?

24        A.   No, no, no way.  That certainly could not have come out of my

25     mouth, that the state of security at the level of the town and

Page 39963

 1     municipality is satisfactory.  It's not only that it wasn't satisfactory.

 2     It was no good at all.  Nothing could have been done properly, nothing

 3     whatsoever.  You could not even carry out an on-site investigation for a

 4     traffic accident, let alone robberies and things like that.  There were

 5     20 armed men that would crop up immediately.  There would be one or two

 6     policemen on the road, whereas they would have 20 armed men.  They would

 7     stand on the road and then you'd have to wait.  Whenever they felt like

 8     moving, then they'd move.  And we were arrested, mistreated, beaten, and

 9     that Topola wanted to execute me and Brano Grujic.  When I could not

10     ensure my own safety, how could I ensure the safety of citizens?

11             So Madam Judge and Your Honours, that is why I left the force

12     after 20 years of professional work.  I left the police, absolutely.

13     It's not that I left a supervisory job in the police.  I left the force

14     all together because I didn't want to have any fingers pointed at me

15     someday.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vasilic.  I no more questions.

17        A.   You're welcome.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  I'll start

21     with the latest.

22             Could we please have page 268 displayed in this same document.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] While we're waiting, while we're waiting,

25     Mr. Vasilic, the attendees of this course that Captain Dragan organised,

Page 39964

 1     where did they come from?  Were they locals or had they come from

 2     elsewhere too?

 3        A.   Some people were recruited from elsewhere, but also there were

 4     some locals too.

 5        Q.   Please take a look at what was circled here, where Captain Jokic

 6     says:

 7             "They come for training with a recommendation from units and

 8     documentation."

 9             And then please read these four lines.  The distinguished

10     Madam Gustafson read this.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the rest of what I said

12     on the next page.  The next page in Serbian as well.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you continue these two lines, what I said, and then

15     Djokanovic.  Could you read that out loud?

16        A.   I don't understand.

17        Q.   Can you read this out from the screen, these first two lines, my

18     final remarks, and then could you read out what Djokanovic said.

19        A.   I don't have that here.  I have something in English.

20        Q.   Perhaps you're not looking at the right screen.  It's the one on

21     the left, that's Serbian.  You have two texts in front of you on the

22     screen.

23        A.   Yes, half Serbian, half English, but it's all mixed up.  And now

24     here there's this list.

25        Q.   Then I'm going to read it out.  After that I said:

Page 39965

 1             "We should have courses ..."

 2             Although that's not the way I speak, this is incorrect --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- this is something that was

 5     added.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No, you are not giving evidence.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I want someone to read this

 8     out so that the witness can see it.  Page 160 --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.  "Although that's not the way I speak, this

10     is incorrect," that is totally inappropriate comment on your part.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can't bear that improper

12     language is attributed to me.  This is illiterate as it is.  It is not

13     verbatim, it is not literal.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And the recruits are in Bijeljina, correct, you see that?

16        A.   I can't get my bearings here, it's all mixed up, I can't.  I

17     can't accept --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we do away with the English

19     version?

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   The top of the page, see?

22        A.   268?

23        Q.   Yes, read it out.

24        A.   "We should have courses.

25             "The recruits are in Bijeljina.

Page 39966

 1             "Commissioner Dragan Djokanovic."

 2        Q.   Keep on reading.  What did Dragan say?

 3        A.   "Marko, you are going beyond your authority.

 4             "Work is done in Divic, there is work and order there, nothing is

 5     stolen there."

 6        Q.   You can stop here.  Marko who?  Who is he addressing?

 7        A.   Who is talking to whom?

 8        Q.   When Dr. Dragan Djokanovic refers to Marko, who is it?

 9        A.   Marko Pavlovic, commander of the TO staff.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Was it possible to have a camp for recruits even

11     without Captain Dragan?

12        A.   We couldn't have it down there.  Someone from the military

13     leadership ought to have decided on that and to assign professional

14     personnel.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was I in favour of Captain Dragan staying or was I in

16     favour of a training course?

17        A.   The way I understood you --

18             MS. GUSTAFSON: [Previous translation continues]...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was that a course, training, was

20     needed.  Now, as for whether it would be Captain Dragan or someone else,

21     in my understanding was unimportant.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I missed you standing.  I see your point.  That

23     was -- the last part was very leading.

24             Carry on.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 39967

 1             Can we next have D1436.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Since it is not very legible, I'll read out paragraph number 2 so

 4     that you can tell us whether it corresponds to the situation.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry, this is about Brcko, the

 6     Serb public -- this is about Brcko -- no, no.  Page 5 then.  Page 5,

 7     paragraph 3.  Page 5, I don't think this is it.  Page 5 of this document.

 8     It was shown during cross-examination.  In the Serbian version a page

 9     before or after this one.  There.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   What was read out is the first sentence.  Can you continue?  I'll

12     read out and you can follow.

13             "Also, the aforementioned groups threatened with carrying out an

14     attack on the Zvornik Public Security Station because the police

15     employees stood up to their looting and robbing.  What is interesting to

16     be mentioned is that the same people held in encirclement the government

17     building and the building of the Crisis Staff of four to five hours with

18     military equipment.  One of the paramilitary formations belonging to

19     Captain Dragan's unit threatened the government president holding a gun

20     to his throat."

21             Is this correct?

22        A.   Yes, it is.  These members of paramilitary units came there with

23     their combat vehicles, with three-barrelled guns, and blocked the

24     facilities.  It is correct that they threatened with assaulting the

25     police station because the police and local authorities were against

Page 39968

 1     their presence there and their conduct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you said, but were not allowed to complete, what

 3     you had gone through.  Perhaps you can explain briefly.  You as the

 4     authorities, how did you fare?  What sort of things did you have to go

 5     through?

 6        A.   Mr. President, thank you very much for allowing me to address it.

 7     At the outset, I need to say that we were not the authorities, we had no

 8     power.  Power is something you hold in your hands and then you have it.

 9     We were simple detainees, prisoners.  We were trying to take shelter from

10     dangers elsewhere and yet we were threatened by our own compatriots.  We

11     were kept prisoner, I, Brano Grujic, Marko Pavlovic, Milos Pantelic, and

12     several others were held prisoner for five to six hours in the TO staff.

13     Zuca kicked the door and came in with five or six of his men and put guns

14     to the backs of our head and asked us who we were, what we were doing,

15     who authorised us, accused us of protecting the Muslims and so on and so

16     forth.  After that, there is -- there was worse.  There was a barricade,

17     a roadblock, in the centre of town.  Brano Grujic and I as well as the

18     Glinica director were kicked out at gunpoint.  Topola, who towers at over

19     2 metres, said that he was tasked with executing us.  He was leading us

20     somewhere to execute us and people gathered.  We begged to be released.

21     We told him, "Do whatever you like, just let us go."  And the next day I

22     and Branko Grujic, as the chief of station and the president of

23     municipality -- actually, I resigned.  As of that day, I no longer

24     entered the police station.  This is the kind of authorities we were.

25             There's more but ...

Page 39969

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On page 14 -- sorry, 74, line 14, I think, there is

 2     mention of Miljanovic whose buses were used to transport prisoners.

 3     Could Miljanovic say no?  Could he deny the buses?

 4        A.   Miko Miljanovic, who was a policeman, escorted the inhabitants of

 5     Divic on a bus to Celopek with the intention of allowing those people to

 6     go further afield because at Divic no one could guarantee their safety.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  It was my mistake.  The director of Drinatrans, could

 8     he refuse to provide the buses?

 9        A.   I see no way how he could have, no way.

10        Q.   Thank you.  On the topic of investigation, the investigation of

11     Drinjaca, can you tell us how many policemen did the reserve police

12     station in Drinjaca have and what were their occupations as well as where

13     they hailed from?

14        A.   The reserve police station in Drinjaca perhaps had up to ten

15     people we most.  There was one active-duty policeman and the rest were

16     locksmiths, carpenters, craftsmen from the nearby villages, honest,

17     decent people who never had an argument with anyone, let alone use

18     weapons.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could they stand up to this Matic and his men?

20        A.   I don't think so.  Even if they had a greater force.  If I was

21     unable to stand up to them, as I am and I'm not afraid of many things and

22     I had more men than I see -- I don't see how they could have done it up

23     there.

24        Q.   Thank you.  When was Lieutenant Matic killed?

25        A.   If my information is correct, then it was sometime in June in

Page 39970

 1     Vitinice.  I'm not stating anything decidedly, but that's the extent of

 2     my knowledge.

 3        Q.   What year?

 4        A.   1992.

 5        Q.   Do you know when the incident took place?

 6        A.   Which one?

 7        Q.   In Drinjaca.

 8        A.   In Drinjaca, in 1992.  I don't know what month, perhaps May,

 9     early April -- actually, end of April, around that time.

10        Q.   On page 59 you were asked about the TO plus Arkan, i.e., who

11     liberated Zvornik.  Tell us this please:  When the volunteers came before

12     the VRS was established, who did they report to in the municipality, to

13     the police or the TO?

14        A.   The TO.  In principle, they had nothing to do with the police.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16        A.   Perhaps I can explain.  As far as I know, while they came

17     individually or in groups of two or three, they were made part of the TO.

18     But when their numbers increased, then they split up and established

19     their own groups.  And I dare say that later on they didn't even obey the

20     brigade commander or anyone.  No one controlled them.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now that you saw the excerpt from Mladic's diary

22     where mention is made of Zuca and Crni and of me knowing, can you say

23     whether you and Brano came to see me in June or July?  This arrival of

24     ours in Zvornik, does it have anything to do with the situation there?

25        A.   I can't say anything decidedly, but I'm inclined to say that it

Page 39971

 1     was July, although I am not certain.  But I think it was July.

 2        Q.   Did you know why we came there and assembled you?  What was the

 3     reason of our arrival?

 4        A.   I had not been informed prior to it, but I supposed you were

 5     there to learn what was going on, what the situation was, and to gather

 6     information.  I was there briefly only.

 7        Q.   What do you know about the preparation of arrest operation?  When

 8     did it begin and when did it end?

 9        A.   Upon my departure and when Brano left, perhaps two or three days

10     around the 29th or the 30th of July, I learned, although I wasn't in the

11     police, that strong special forces arrived from the RS MUP and that in

12     co-ordination with the military police they arrested if not all then at

13     least most, around a hundred men, members of the paramilitary forces and

14     that they were taken to Bijeljina to prison.  Some were apparently

15     prosecuted in -- before RS courts, others before the courts of the

16     Republic of Serbia.

17             I also know that Mr. Zuco, two months ago, took part in a TV

18     broadcast called "Happy," where he admitted to his brother being mentally

19     ill and under influence and that in that state he committed the crimes in

20     Celopek.  Had there not been about -- the arrest, the question is how

21     long would these executions of theirs have lasted?

22        Q.   In line 15 you said he was doped and here we have that he was

23     under the influence.

24        A.   He was a drug addict.  Then he was asked, "Well, you knew what he

25     was like."  And it seems he tried to keep him under control that way.

Page 39972

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly have P6405 or

 2     65 ter 25215.  Page 97.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You were shown it today.  I'll read out from line 4.  Please

 5     listen to it.

 6             [In English] "That was talked about for about a half of year, and

 7     I guess I heard ..."

 8             [Interpretation] Does it say here that you know for sure or that

 9     you assume so?

10        A.   I didn't understand the question, but I understand what you read

11     out.

12        Q.   I'll read only that part.  [In English] "... and I guess I

13     heard ..."

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do not lead the witness.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I wanted to

16     ascertain on this page in several places whether he knew or he guessed or

17     he heard or believed so.  Well, on page 9 --

18             JUDGE KWON:  We can read it.  "I guess I heard about it," it

19     says.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That was the page, and

21     during cross-examination the question was put to him as if he were

22     certain.

23             And my last question has to do with P2591.  P2591.  Item III, can

24     we go to the beginning.  This is about the establishment of the Serbian

25     municipality.

Page 39973

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you read item III to us.  It isn't long.  Please read it out

 3     aloud.

 4        A.   "Decision on the establishment of the Serbian municipality of

 5     Zvornik."

 6        Q.   Item III.

 7        A.   "The local communes, inhabited places, and parts of the local

 8     communes of the cities, as by Article 2 of this decision, are being

 9     separated from the municipality of Zvornik."

10        Q.   Was there an option of this being implemented by force and

11     include a Muslim settlement in this Serbian municipality?

12        A.   I replied a number of times that I wasn't involved in politics,

13     but from what I heard and learned by talking to people, I can say that

14     the intention was to talk and try to agree and solve problems in a

15     peaceful manner.  If necessary, the municipality can be split into a

16     Serbian part and a Muslim part.  I have never heard the war -- war as an

17     option -- being mentioned as an option.

18        Q.   Why did the Serbs think that Snagovo should be part of their

19     municipality?  Why only one Snagovo?  Because there are three places

20     called Snagovo.

21        A.   Because that Snagovo has a Serbian population.

22        Q.   What about Snagovo Donje and Snagovo Gornje?

23        A.   These are inhabited by Muslims.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vasilic, for your evidence.

25        A.   You're welcome.

Page 39974

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Vasilic.  On

 2     behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to

 3     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a long weekend and resume on Wednesday at

 6     9.00.  The hearing is adjourned.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.38 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of

10                           June, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.