Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 40167

 1                           Friday, 21 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 11.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  For the record, I just note

 7     that we start late today in order to give the accused some time for his

 8     preparation of his examination, because he couldn't have access to the

 9     internet or the e-court from the Detention Unit.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  We appreciate

11     the Chamber accommodating us for that.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies.  Good

14     morning, to everybody.

15                           WITNESS:  BOGDAN SUBOTIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General Subotic.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   Yesterday I asked you about the number of those who were released

21     from Keraterm and Omarska.  On page 45 yesterday, Mr. Tieger suggested

22     that there were thousands of Muslim civilians who were detained in our

23     prisons.  Can you tell us about our policy towards civilians of other

24     ethnicities?

25        A.   When we're talking about the policy of the state leadership,

Page 40168

 1     there were no plans about any prisons at all.  The policies were such

 2     that what happened during conflict and during combat was considered to

 3     be -- how should I call it?  That's how things happen in wars.  There are

 4     prisoners, there are wounded, there are killed, and so on.  In other

 5     words, those who are imprisoned are stationed or kept in some buildings,

 6     in company buildings, in schools and barracks on both sides.  And now

 7     this is what I could say about the state policy because that's what I

 8     know, and now how that functioned in practice is an entirely different

 9     matter.

10        Q.   Thank you.  What were the instructions and orders that arrived

11     from the office concerning civilians and their rights?

12        A.   The instructions and orders were those that were prescribed in

13     the Law on National Defence, and that was done very precisely and very

14     clearly.  The law prescribes everything correctly and precisely.  In

15     every sense, I and the government, the ministries and so on insisted on

16     the compliance with the law.  Nobody can deny that things were done in

17     that way.  However, a war is a war.  People can do all sorts of things.

18     Some observed the regulations, some didn't.  I'm sure that there were

19     some problem there, that there were mistakes made, but when it comes to

20     rules and regulations, and when it comes to the state leadership,

21     everything was clear.  Because of those mistakes and because of those

22     regulations, there were some discords, we have already discussed that,

23     and I already mentioned a lot of those in my statement.

24        Q.   On page 46, Mr. Tieger quoted from a letter from the

25     Ministry of the Interior and referred to the Crisis Staffs and some units

Page 40169

 1     of the army who were requested to collect as many civilians to be

 2     exchanged.  What was the position of the minister about those requests?

 3     Did the police met those requests?  Did the police meet those requests?

 4     On the page 46 of the transcript, you cannot find it in your statement.

 5        A.   Is that the transcript from 2006?

 6        Q.   No, that's yesterday's transcript.  Mr. Tieger quoted from a

 7     letter written by the Ministry of the Interior, and in that letter he

 8     says that that's what was requested by the MUP.  Did the minister support

 9     that or did he raise his voice against it?  Did the MUP comply with those

10     requests?

11             JUDGE KWON:  How could the witness answer the question without

12     seeing the letter?

13             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  It's also a mischaracterisation of the quote from

15     the report of the July 17th, 1992.  Dr. Karadzic said -- anyway.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let's upload it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Mr. Tieger

18     did not display the letter.  He only read one part from it.

19             JUDGE KWON:  But then if you'd like to put a question, you should

20     read correctly.  Let us see the letter then in any event.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour, just for purposes of

22     responding to that, I mean, Dr. Karadzic can either quote back accurately

23     what was put to the witness previously or show the document itself.  He

24     did neither.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must say that Mr. Tieger did not

Page 40170

 1     mention the document number.  He quoted from it.  Page 46:

 2             [In English] [As read]The army Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies

 3     have requested that the army round up or capture as many Muslims as --

 4     Muslim units as possible and delete [phoen] them."

 5             [Interpretation] And so on.  This should be P1096.  However,

 6     Mr. Tieger never mentioned the number.  Maybe he would like to call it up

 7     now.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  It is mentioned explicitly on page 40123 of the

 9     transcript at line 11.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My page numbers are different.

11             Your Excellencies, I would like to have the same page numbers,

12     and I would like to be able to upload from my room.  I'm really totally

13     incapacitated.  I'm in a very unfavourable position.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is in the same position as well.  The

15     page numbers are being updated the next day.  That's my understanding.

16     There is no problem if you refer to by your page number, 46.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And, Mr. President, more to the point, it was

18     mentioned in exactly the same spot where that quote is mentioned.  It's

19     not just going to occur on some later page that can't be found so that

20     the -- I made the page reference here so everyone would know where it is,

21     but it's right at the spot where the quote was -- was -- was made so

22     it's -- it's -- there's no difficulty in knowing that it was P1096 and in

23     not asserting the day afterward that no citation was provided.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So if you read that line, Mr. Tieger said at the

25     17th Assembly session and that by way was P1096.  You should have it on

Page 40171

 1     your page as well.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 46 I don't have it.  There

 3     is no citation.  There is no exhibit number.  Could I now call up page 4

 4     in the Serbian version, page 4 in e-court.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   General, sir, look at the first paragraph from the top of the

 7     page.  This was quoted to you?

 8        A.   I don't see page 4.

 9        Q.   This is page 3, but it is page 4 in e-court.

10        A.   Where it says the army and the Crisis Staffs?

11        Q.   Yes.  How do you understand the position of the

12     Ministry of the Interior about these requests?

13        A.   Please bear with me for a moment while I read this.  I understand

14     it in this way:  The minister of the interior - I was in the government

15     at the time so I remember - he opposed that.  He criticises the army,

16     Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies, and he says that they have requested

17     to round up or capture as many civilians.  The minister of the interior

18     says that the conditions in some of these camps are poor.  There's no

19     food.  Individuals sometimes do not observe international norms and so

20     on.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see the following page.  Look at the second

22     paragraph where it says it was pointed out --

23        A.   It was pointed out that the priority of the national and crime

24     prevention services is detect [as interpreted] war crimes, provide

25     documentation, on-site investigation, photos, expert testimonies, medical

Page 40172

 1     findings, and file criminal reports.  Documents are also provided for war

 2     crimes committed by Serbs.

 3        Q.   How does this tally with what you know about the position of the

 4     government and the ministry about these issues?

 5        A.   This is correct.  Both things are correct and were correctly put

 6     by the Ministry of the Interior.

 7        Q.   Can we now look at page 8 in e-court.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  This document was put to the witness originally

11     because of his assertion that he had no way of knowing how many people

12     were in camps, so he's directed that particular part of the report.  Now

13     Dr. Karadzic appears to be using the report generally for various

14     purposes in a leading fashion.  So before we turn to this part of the

15     report and the witness is directed to some portions of it which the

16     accused will presumably ask him to affirm or not, we should know exactly

17     how this arises from cross, what the witness's information is about the

18     subject that may be at issue, and only then turn to portions of the

19     report as it may be necessary as is -- as has been repeatedly emphasised

20     to the accused.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Let us collapse the document.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can give up on the further

23     examination about the document, but it was pointed out that the witness

24     affirmed such treatment of civilians.  The general was a minister in the

25     government, and I would like him to be able to see the entire document.

Page 40173

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If you move to another topic, please move on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll change topic.  I'm giving up

 3     on this document.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   General, sir, there was a lot of talk about Koricanske Stijene.

 6     May I be allowed to ask you whether during the summer of 1992 the

 7     conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina continued under the chair of Cutileiro

 8     and Carrington and did I attend those conferences?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you know where I was from the 21st to 29th August 1992?

11        A.   I believe you were in London.  I don't know whether I'm right,

12     but I know that you were somewhere abroad.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did the two of us talk to each other during that

14     time?  Were you in Krajina before the 30, before I returned, and then on

15     the 30th we went there again together?  When did you visit Krajina for

16     the first time to discuss Koricanske Stijene?

17        A.   That was when you arrived at Pale.  I can't remember the exact

18     date when that was.

19        Q.   Thank you.  When did you establish that the military had nothing

20     to do with that?  Under whose authority was that incident after that?

21        A.   I established that at the meeting in Banja Luka.  As far as I

22     remember, it was Sunday.  A meeting was organised involving all the

23     protagonists - let me not enumerate them:  The police, the prosecutor's

24     office, the judiciary - that meeting took most of the morning.  They

25     reported to me about those things very correctly, and then the entire

Page 40174

 1     team went to the site to look at what we could see.  However, there was

 2     nothing special for me to see there.  In any case, I transferred or I

 3     passed on the duties and tasks.  At that meeting I learned that the army

 4     was not involved at all.  Nobody even mentioned the army.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  From then on under whose authority was that matter?

 6        A.   I know that the case was taken over by the judiciary, the

 7     investigating judiciary teams and so on.  I returned on that same day to

 8     Banja Luka and then on to Pale, and I submitted a report as to what I had

 9     done.  I had made notes at the meeting, and I also submitted those notes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you notice that there were actions or efforts to

11     cover up some parts of that crime?

12        A.   No, I didn't notice that.  In the part that I participated in,

13     there were a lot of people involved from various institutions, so nobody

14     could sweep anything under the carpet.  It could not be covered up.  They

15     put in place measures.  They organised actions, and all those actions

16     were done after my departure.  I no longer participated in that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if an investigating judge was involved,

18     whether investigators were involved, whether forensic experts were

19     involved?  At that meeting was it ever mentioned who was supposed to be

20     involved?

21        A.   As far as I can remember, it was mentioned.  I don't remember the

22     names of the judges in question, although I knew some of them.  In any

23     case, it was said very precisely at that place who was supposed to do

24     what.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Were there indicia, was there evidence, were there

Page 40175

 1     indications that Simo Drljaca had either ordered them or allowed them to

 2     do what they did?

 3        A.   At that place at that time at that meeting, I did not learn

 4     anything concretely.  I did not note any such thing.  What Mr. Tieger

 5     said yesterday is true and that is that it was said at the time that

 6     there were three people who were the main protagonists of the whole

 7     situation, that they had left what Mr. Tieger said yesterday.  Let me not

 8     try and find the exact quote.  I adhere by that, because that's what I

 9     noted at the meeting.  How -- how accurate that was, whether it was true

10     or not, I can't be a judge of that because I didn't have any information

11     to that effect.  That was all the information that I had at the time.

12        Q.   Thank you.  On page 15, but then I have this new page numbering.

13     After 78 again I have 1 in terms of yesterday.  That was some mention --

14     or, rather, you asked about pressure, and you said that Republika Srpska

15     was exposed to pressures exerted by international factors every day.  Can

16     you tell us whether this pressure proved to be justified or, rather,

17     founded on some truth?

18        A.   Absolutely not.  Throughout the war this propaganda was really

19     something that could not be proven, but we in Republika Srpska could not

20     do anything about that or against that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  What were the responses of our services?  Actually,

22     did we check what the international community would send by way of some

23     kind of objection or information?

24        A.   Well, yes, we did check for the most part, and always -- I mean,

25     I know and I have quite a few things written down.  Your talks with

Page 40176

 1     Akashi, in particular, and so on and others too, in terms of

 2     Professor Koljevic, that convoy, et cetera.  Always there were

 3     inaccuracies there.  It was all sort of muddled.  It was always the army

 4     that was blamed and Republika Srpska, as if -- well, although the army on

 5     several occasions found ammunition and other things.  There were all

 6     sorts of things.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  A letter was shown asking for access to detained

 8     persons in Srebrenica.  Did we have a prison in Srebrenica before or

 9     after the fall of Srebrenica?  Did we have a prison for anyone in that

10     area?

11        A.   As far as I know we did not have a prison, but -- I mean, I did

12     not hear of us having a prison there, so I cannot guarantee 100 per cent

13     that there wasn't some - how do I put this?  - some situation when these

14     people were brought together in certain areas so they would not be

15     directly involved in conflict.

16        Q.   Thank you, General, but let me go back to the previous question.

17     Your answer was that we asked for checks.  What did our services tell us

18     in terms of the accuracy?

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic.  Where did the witness say

20     the Serbs asked for checks?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 20.  Page 9, line 20.

22             JUDGE KWON:  But, Mr. Subotic, yesterday when asked by

23     Mr. Tieger, that you said there's -- you said you are not aware of such

24     pressure, and you could not discuss it.  Do you remember having said so?

25     Shall I read out what you said?

Page 40177

 1             "Mr. Tieger, the international community was pressuring

 2     Republika Srpska every minute, every moment, and you are asking me now to

 3     split hairs.  I was always under pressure, not just myself but everybody

 4     in Republika Srpska.  How could I have known about every instance of

 5     pressure by the international community?  These pressures were there

 6     every day.  So I will tell you what I know sincerely.  I'm not afraid of

 7     anything.  But don't impose any mention of any pressure on me that I'm

 8     not aware of it.  There's no reason for that.  I'm not aware of this.

 9     Therefore, I cannot discuss it."

10             Having said so, how could you now talk about a check that was

11     done on your part?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not that I carried out checks.

13     It was organs of the army, organs of the MUP, then those teams of

14     Professor Koljevic's and so on.  It's not that I took part in these

15     things.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Then why did you not answer so yesterday to the

17     question of Mr. Tieger?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's the way I've said now.

19     There's a wish to explain this more precisely.  As for this question that

20     Karadzic put to me, this was done by different people so I do not have

21     that specific information that I could present.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   General, sir, perhaps it's my fault for this confusion.  I'm not

25     asking you about any specific case today.  I'm asking you about this

Page 40178

 1     phenomenon of international observers raising certain objections.  And

 2     then what did we do about that and these checks?  Did they confirm such

 3     instructions?

 4        A.   Well, they did not.  Our people always said what it was that was

 5     not right there and what it was that was right.  I know that.  That's the

 6     way it was at all these discussions.  So there was no reason -- well,

 7     however, this was because differences were pretty big between the claims

 8     made by these international factors in relation to what we were

 9     experiencing on the ground, the army, the humanitarian agencies, and

10     others who were working on this.

11        Q.   Thank you.  When I asked you whether there was some prison in

12     Srebrenica for those who were missing, I did not mean during combat and

13     in the immediate aftermath.  What I meant was during those letters, did

14     we have any other prison in that area except for Batkovic?

15        A.   No.  No, not that I know of.  Not that I know of.  I don't know

16     whether there were some.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Was Batkovic available to the International Red Cross

18     whenever they wanted access?

19        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, whenever --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, but please put a pause between the

21     questions and the answers.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We apologise to the

23     interpreters and to the participants.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So, please, could we pause.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber

Page 40179

 1     roughly how many POWs did we have?  How many people were taken prisoner

 2     in combat from the beginning of the war until the 10th of July, 1995?

 3        A.   Well, I remember -- I mean, some conversation.  I actually have

 4     that written down in my statement too.  About 20, or a bit over 20.000.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  What happened to them?

 6        A.   To tell you the truth, quite frankly, I don't know exactly.  For

 7     the most part they were tried, investigated.  How all of that ended up, I

 8     don't know.  To be quite frank, I am not aware of that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether there were any pardons that came

10     from me in order to carry out exchanges even for those who had committed

11     crimes?

12        A.   Yes.  I remember that kind of thing.  I don't remember to what

13     degree, but this did happen.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Were there unilateral releases from our sides

15     allowing people to go to third countries?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.  All of this was made possible for them.  They could

17     go to third countries.  They had very favourable conditions.  As far as I

18     know, quite a few did go there.

19        Q.   Thank you.  As for these exchanges, in addition to these pardons

20     and unilateral releases, did the president's office deal with these

21     simple exchanges?  Whose authority was that?

22        A.   We had organs for exchanges of prisoners of war, and the

23     president's office did not deal with that from that point of view.  It

24     was these organs that had been tasked with doing that.  From time to time

25     we did receive such information.  At any rate, this was an organised

Page 40180

 1     effort.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Out of these 20.000 POWs approximately before

 3     July 1995, did you receive any information or documents or evidence that

 4     there were executions that would make it incumbent upon you to be careful

 5     with regard to each and every other situation when prisoners were taken?

 6        A.   No.  I never heard of any such document, and I never saw any such

 7     document.

 8        Q.   Were there things that happened?

 9        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't remember.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you about directives.  Can you

11     tell the Trial Chamber what type of document a directive of the president

12     of the republic is -- or, rather, of the Supreme Commander?

13        A.   That is a strategic type of document.  That is to say the

14     uppermost type of document.

15        Q.   What happens to it once it returns to the Main Staff?

16        A.   I don't really understand this question.  Could you be a bit more

17     specific?

18        Q.   What does the Main Staff use it for?  Is it directly implemented

19     or what does the Main Staff do on the basis of that directive?

20        A.   Well, a directive is prepared in the Main Staff, and it is

21     adopted in the Main Staff and it remains in the Main Staff.  And on the

22     basis of that directive, they have to organise operations.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And these operations are ordered by which documents?

24        A.   Operations are ordered through orders issued by commanders of

25     corps, brigades, and so on.  That is to say on the basis of what the

Page 40181

 1     Main Staff had sent to these commands.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, your answer was that you did not know why

 3     the directive was sent to the 1st Krajina Corps.  In the light of what

 4     you told us just now, can you tell us what was supposed to be sent to the

 5     1st Corps?

 6        A.   An order.  A directive is not sent to corps.  Only orders are

 7     sent to corps, different types of orders, orders for higher-level units

 8     and orders for lower-level units.  Commanders of these units write these

 9     orders, that is to say commanders of these formations.

10        Q.   Thank you.  A moment ago you said that directives are created in

11     the Main Staff.  Were there are directives that were not created at the

12     Main Staff, but, rather, at the office, those that have to do with

13     humanitarian matters rather than combat?

14        A.   Yes, these were shorter directives, and I think that there are

15     such documents.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That's a very leading question, Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. TIEGER:  As always, and he should be reminded of this, it

18     continues to reduce whatever probative value the accused hopes to gain

19     from this tactic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   General, sir, who drafted the directives that were created in the

22     Presidency and that were not combat related?

23        A.   I created some of them.  Some we worked on together, and people

24     from other ministries took part in them, those that had to do with these

25     events and these problems.

Page 40182

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please call up on our

 3     screens -- half of the screen, actually, P838, and the other half of the

 4     screen D104, in Serbian at that.  And could the participants please refer

 5     to the translations.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

 7     translations.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Interpreters do not have that possibility, so when

 9     you read the document, please read very slowly.

10             I know P838 is a directive 7, but what is D104?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D104 is a directive.  These are two

12     directives that were created.  Now we're going to ask the general where

13     each one of them was created and in the drafting of which one he took

14     part.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, this directive on the

16     right-hand side, the office of the president to the Main Staff --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  For the record, the witness is

18     indicating D104, which is a directive of 11th of March, 1993.

19             Yes, please continue.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  So to the Main Staff of

21     the Army of Republika Srpska.  I'm not going to read the letterhead, just

22     the directive:

23             "Directive, Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska shall in

24     the future as well enable unhindered passage and protection for

25     shipments, equipment and, staff extending assistance that is being

Page 40183

 1     provided to the civilian population of the other side.

 2              "2.  Ban abuse for military purposes of food supplies --"

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Subotic, Mr. Subotic, please concentrate on --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  -- answering the question.  Mr. Karadzic asked you:

 6     Where was each one of these created, and in the drafting of which you

 7     took part.

 8             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   General, sir, can you say where the directive on the right-hand

11     side, D104 drafted -- was drafted?  Who signed it?  What's the protocol

12     number?  Who's stamp it is?

13        A.   Well, the directive is from the office of the president of the

14     republic.  You signed it.  The stamp is yours.  Therefore, we created it

15     in the office.

16        Q.   Thank you.  What about the protocol?  Whose is that?

17        A.   The protocol is also from Pale.  It's ours, dated the

18     11th of March, 1993, the cabinet of the president.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And what does the 01 indicate?

20        A.   01, yes.  01.87/93.  I think that's the first directive as far as

21     I can recall.

22        Q.   All right.  Well could you please look at the same elements on

23     the page to the left.  Where was it created?  Who --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Subotic, at one point of time

25     you said in case of documents you drafted, the protocol number should be

Page 40184

 1     02.  Do you remember having said so?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  That was just in reference to

 3     the stamp, 02.  When I personally drafted a document, then the stamp used

 4     a 02.  This stamp here is 01, meaning that it's the president's.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Does it mean that you were not involved in drafting

 6     of the document?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did take part.  I did.

 8     But the president directly signed it.  When the president did not

 9     directly sign it, then the 02 stamp would be used, but the president

10     would issue an order or would approve that I do that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   General, sir, this number 2 that you are talking about, where is

16     it?  When you sign it and send it, it would still be the president's

17     office, but where do you see this 2?

18        A.   On the stamp.  On the stamp.  This is the Republika Srpska, the

19     president of the republic, but then it would also say 2.  That would be

20     the number on the stamp.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please read the letterhead on the left-hand

22     side document to see where it was drafted, and what is the protocol

23     number?

24        A.   This is the number of the Supreme Command of Republika Srpska,

25     dated the 8th of March, 1995, or it could be the 9th.  I'm not sure.

Page 40185

 1     It's a little bit blurred here.  It was sent to the command of the

 2     1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the IBK, the

 3     Herzegovina, the Drina, and so on and so forth.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  Could we please look at the

 5     last page so that we could see the signature and the stamp on this

 6     document on the left-hand side.

 7        A.   Could the document please be scrolled up.

 8        Q.   Well, can we look at one page but last.  This is an attached or

 9     an accompanying document.  And could we please zoom in on bottom part of

10     the page?

11        A.   The stamp says "Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska," and

12     the signature is Supreme Commander Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  This is what I

13     said, that this was done in Han Pijesak, that it was drafted without my

14     presence, and you can see that this seal, this stamp, proves it, and that

15     I did not know about the directive or its implementation.  This is

16     100 per cent proof of that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So who was it then who drafted this?  Was it the

18     Supreme Command or --

19        A.   It was done by Main Staff, and they gave it to you to sign.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at P4818, please -- 4481.  The

21     interpretation gave it to you is not quite precise.

22        A.   It means to trick.  Perhaps there's another expression, "to

23     plant," "to trick."  Perhaps the gentlemen can understand.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is written now in the

25     transcript is not an issue.  It's the answer -- it's not a question.

Page 40186

 1     It's an answer by the witness.  The first and second sentences are by me,

 2     and then the rest of that is the answer of the witness.  [In English]

 3     "It means trick and perhaps there is another expression ..."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Thank you.  A little bit earlier you were talking about what was

 6     happening with the directives.  Are you able to tell us what this

 7     document is about?

 8        A.   As far as I'm concerned -- as far as I'm concerned as the chef de

 9     cabinet of the president of the republic, this document, as far as I'm

10     concerned, is a document by the Main Staff.  It's not a document of the

11     Supreme Command or by the Supreme Commander.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please now look at this document issued by

13     the Drina Corps based on the directive.  Are you able to look at it?  You

14     were talking about orders and commands.  What is this document?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The witness just now said this is

16     the document of the Main Staff?  Did you say so?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's a document of the

18     Main Staff, because it has the stamp of the Main Staff.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is talking about the

20     previous document.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the previous one, the

22     directive.  Because no military document --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Now, Mr. -- no, you said so already.  We are now

24     talking about this document which is in front of you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, you mean the Drina Corps

Page 40187

 1     command.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Are you able to tell us what it means order for active combat?

 5        A.   "Zapovest" is an order which can encompass the brigade as the top

 6     possible level.

 7        Q.   Could we look at the next page, please, item 2.  In English it's

 8     page 3, and could you please read item 2 so that you can tell us what the

 9     gist is.

10        A.   The command of the Drina Corps, pursuant to directive number 7 of

11     the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and on the basis of the

12     situation in the corps area of responsibility has the task of carrying

13     out offensive activities with free forces deep in the Drina Corps zone

14     as soon as possible in order to split apart the enclaves of Zepa and

15     Srebrenica and to reduce them to their urban areas.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell us -- I think that you didn't

17     read all the numbers.  You said directive 7 and 7/1.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes, just one moment, please.

19        Q.   First line.

20        A.   Ah, first line.  The first line of defence.

21        Q.   The first line of item 2.

22        A.   Item 2, the command of the Drina Corps pursuant to operation,

23     directive number 7 and 7/1 of the Main Staff.

24        Q.   Ah, all right.  Thank you.  So whose are these -- whose

25     directives are these, number 7 and 7/1?

Page 40188

 1        A.   Well, the directives 7 should be the directive that was drafted

 2     at the staff.  7/1 is now kind of amended directive, one that as soon as

 3     it's 7/1 means there's been some amendment.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now get the one page but last in the Serbian

 5     and page 7 in the English.  Are you able to tell us -- it's a little bit

 6     blurry, but it says "Security organs."  This is the fourth line from the

 7     top.

 8        A.   Security organs.

 9        Q.   Perhaps page 5 is clean, but that is also --

10        A.   Yes, yes, I can read it.  Security organs and military police

11     will indicate the areas for the Assembly and security -- and security --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show page 5 to the witness,

13     please.  It's -- it's much clearer.  There should be another page 5.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Does this part arise from the cross-examination?

15     What part of cross-examination are you dealing with now?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To the part that refers to the

17     directives and their consequences so that we can see how these directives

18     are worked through.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see.  Yes, please continue.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The security organs and military

21     police will indicate the areas for the assembly and security of prisoners

22     of war and war booty.

23              "In dealing with prisoners of war and the civilian population,

24     adhere in every way to the Geneva Conventions.

25             "The security organs --"

Page 40189

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, General, sir.  In yesterday's transcript,

 3     page 4, lines 2 to 5, it was suggested to you that the text in the

 4     directive, direct 7, is illegal, and you agreed that that should not be

 5     in the directive.  So how is it worked through further?  How is this

 6     sentence developed further here?  How does this paragraph fit into that?

 7        A.   It does not fit in.  This sentence does not fit in that other

 8     text, because this is proper and correct what is stated here.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned a little bit earlier that directive 7/1

10     must have had some kind of change.  Can we look at paragraph P4226 --

11     actually, no.  Exhibit P2246.

12             Could we look at the English version, and can we zoom in a little

13     bit.

14        A.   Yes, can we zoom in a little bit?  All right.  Very well.  Can we

15     zoom in a little bit more to make the letters bigger?  All right.  That's

16     good enough.

17        Q.   Could you please tell us first when it was drafted and who

18     drafted it.

19        A.   It was drafted by the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska

20     on the 31st of March, 1995.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at the next page, please.  Can we

22     zoom a little bit, please.  I think it's page 3 in the English.  Could

23     you please read the task for paragraph 2, just the first sentence.

24        A.    "Based on directive number 7, the Army of Republika Srpska has

25     the task, first --"

Page 40190

 1        Q.   All right, General, just that.  So could you say whether this

 2     directive stems from directive 7?

 3        A.   According this, yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at page 5 in English and in Serbian.

 5     Can we look item 5.3, Drina Corps.

 6        A.   Yes, it's very small.  Can we zoom in on that?

 7        Q.   General, sir, could you read 5.3, that paragraph, and read what

 8     is stated as the task for the Drina Corps.  Can you please read it to

 9     yourself and then say whether that sentence that you said was illegal is

10     there, whether it's being repeated here in brackets.  Read it to

11     yourself.  Just read up to the end of that paragraph, up to 5.4.

12        A.   There is absolutely not a single word from that other text, and

13     it has nothing in common with that other text.

14        Q.   And so would that be that change, then, that you talked about?

15        A.   Probably that is that change.  This is written properly, and that

16     sentence is not there.  There isn't even a part of it there.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And this directive 7.1, does it task the Drina Corps

18     to capture Srebrenica?

19        A.   No, just to separate, and there are specific tasks mentioned

20     here.

21        Q.   Thank you.  General, sir, now we will move on to the topic of the

22     sessions of the Supreme Command.  You were asked about that.  In

23     paragraph ...

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up P2242, but I'm

Page 40191

 1     not sure.  Please bear with me for a moment.  P22042, it is a diary that

 2     was kept by my secretary.  Can we look at the entry made on the

 3     16th of March, 1995.  It is a meeting that you attended and that you

 4     already mentioned in your evidence.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's page 33 in both versions.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, sir, could you please look at line 2 under the

 8     16th of May, 1995 -- or, rather, the 16 of March, 1995.  In line 2 it

 9     says:  "Between 11.0 5 and 15.0 5, Tolimir, Milovanovic, and Subotic were

10     in the office."  That's the second bigger part where Drago Simic is the

11     first entry.

12        A.   Yes.  Drago Simic at 16.05.  It says at 1100 hours, Tolimir,

13     Subotic, from 11.05 to 15.05.

14        Q.   Who is the first person?

15        A.   The first --

16        Q.   Is it Milovanovic?

17        A.   Just a moment, let me find it.

18        Q.   Is this General Milovanovic?

19        A.   I can't find that.  I found Tolimir and myself.

20        Q.   Before Tolimir.  Before Tolimir?

21             JUDGE KWON:  We collapse English for the moment and zoom in.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is excellent now.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you need to explain what this is about.

24     General Subotic.  Mr. Subotic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, yes.

Page 40192

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Subotic.  Yes.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember Mira and Milijana who were the

 4     assistants to the secretary for Mr. Karadzic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And do you know they kept a notebook to maintain --

 7     to arrange his agenda?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you know they put first minus or a hyphen and

10     then when that was -- that appointment was implemented they put it into a

11     plus or a cross.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A plus.  Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So you know that.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is Milovanovic, Tolimir,

17     and Subotic.  There was no other Milovanovic.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  General, sir, this was one day after the directive 7

20     was sent to the 1st Corps.  Can you tell us whether during that period of

21     four hours what was discussed?  What did the four of discuss during those

22     four hours?  What did we discuss?  What were the problems at stake at

23     that moment?

24        A.   As far as I can remember, the problems were of the nature that

25     can be found in the order by the Drina Corps.  As far as I can remember,

Page 40193

 1     that's what we discussed the most, what needed to be done, and that's

 2     what we have just seen just a minute ago.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Subotic, I don't follow your answer.  You said:

 4             "... the problems were of the nature that can be found in the

 5     order by the Drina Corps."

 6             Could you expand?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean we talked about that

 8     operation, as far as I can remember.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  What operation?  Did you mean the -- but I think

10     that Operation Krivaja 95 was drafted some time in June or July, if my

11     memory's correct.  We are talking about March now, and we are talking

12     about March 16th, and Mr. Karadzic pointed and told you that the day

13     after -- on the day after, that is on the 17th of March, directive 7 was

14     sent out to the corps by the Main Staff by General Milovanovic.

15             Now, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

17             JUDGE KWON:  So now you remember what you discussed.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Very well, yes, yes.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  General, sir, at that meeting did we read the

21     directive?

22             JUDGE KWON:  No.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   At that meeting were there discussions to the effect --

25             JUDGE KWON:  No.  It's leading.  I asked what the witness

Page 40194

 1     discussed with these generals together with Mr. Karadzic.  Do you

 2     remember what you discussed?  Your first answer was you discussed the

 3     operation of the Drina Corps.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And my question was --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Let him answer the question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now that I see this ...

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   At that meeting did we mention the creation of bad conditions for

14     the population?

15        A.   What population do you have in mind?

16        Q.   Very well, I'm giving up on this.  General, sir, in

17     paragraph 2 --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, are you leaving this topic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  If the general does not

20     remember what was being discussed during the four hours of the meeting -

21     I suppose that there were a lot of topics that were discussed - in that

22     case I'll give up on this.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I have some questions with this.  I take it,

24     Mr. Subotic, that these generals are -- were meeting the president for

25     four hours at the president's office.  I take it it's a very uncommon

Page 40195

 1     happening.  Do you agree?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be honest, I can't remember.

 3     This is what I honestly believe.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But the meeting took four hours.  Do you agree?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I can say yes to that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Generals speaking, meeting with the president for

 7     four hours is not a usual happening?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The discussion was probably

 9     lengthy.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Can we upload Exhibit D2149, English

11     page 53, B/C/S page 35.  Shall we show the witness the first page first.

12             Mr. Subotic, this is what Mr. Milovanovic, General Milovanovic,

13     wrote about his meetings with president between 1992 and 1996.  And

14     Mr. Milovanovic confirmed his writing.  So shall we go to page 53 in

15     English and 35 in B/C/S.  So the bottom part of the B/C/S.  So I read out

16     for you:

17             "On 16th March I had a meeting with Karadzic in Pale because of

18     some documents that needed to be signed and which were made by the

19     Main Staff operations administration for the purpose of the

20     Supreme Command since they did not have people skilled for that."

21             Do you see that document [overlapping speakers]

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I can see that, yes.  I can see

23     that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] sentence.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 40196

 1             JUDGE KWON:  What is it, a document that needed to be signed

 2     which were made by the General Staff, the Main Staff operation

 3     administration for the purpose of the Supreme Command.  I take it this is

 4     the 16th of March where -- when you and Mr. -- General Tolimir and

 5     Milovanovic met with Mr. Karadzic for four hours, so I take it you

 6     discussed this document.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.  I can't remember.  I

 8     should be shown some other details of that conversation.  However, based

 9     on what I see before me, based on those few lines I can still not get to

10     the bottom of what was discussed.

11             If there is anything else, maybe it will jog my memory.  As

12     things stand now, I can't.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree that a president office or

14     Supreme Command did not have people skilled for drafting military

15     documents?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not agree with that.  Only

17     partly, only in some segments the answer would be yes.  However, in most

18     of the segments the answer would be no.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Thank you very much for

21     those questions, but since you're able to ask leading questions and I

22     think there is one topic that we just left out that ought to be asked,

23     and that is:  Was this language about making life unbearable for the

24     inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa discussed at all at this meeting.  I

25     think that's an important element that ought to be clarified with the

Page 40197

 1     witness.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Since the witness did not remember this

 4     conversation, I would rather leave it at that.

 5             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.  If you have any further questions

 6     you can do so, but not in a leading way.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I would kindly ask the general to read the last sentence on the

 9     page that's before him, and could he also be provided with the following

10     page in the Serbian version?

11        A.   Can the page be scrolled up, please.

12        Q.   The last on your side.

13        A.   Can the letters be enlarged?  Okay.

14        Q.   Where it says the Supreme Commander criticises

15     General Mladen Djukic?

16        A.   Yes, I can see that.

17        Q.   Go on reading from there.  Read the sentence aloud to the end.

18        A.   It says:

19             "And Colonel Luka Dragicevic and a few other VRS officers because

20     of our arbitrariness.  I informed General Mladic about the criticism, but

21     I don't know how they talked it over, if they did it at all.  Because of

22     my people, but also due to lamenting of the entire VRS,

23     President Karadzic decided then to hold a session of the RS

24     National Assembly and saw the supply problems and further engagement of

25     the army.  The Main Staff had to make an expose or report on the

Page 40198

 1     situation in the VRS and its needs and requirements and bring it up at

 2     the Assembly session sometime in mid-April."

 3             And now finally I remembered what we discussed.  We discussed

 4     general problems, and a request was made to discuss it at the Assembly

 5     session.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And when it comes to General Milovanovic, does he

 7     mention that we discussed directive 7?

 8        A.   No.  I did not notice that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When was it the first time that you heard the

10     sentence, and I quote, "Life has to be made unbearable for the population

11     of Srebrenica"?

12        A.   Much after Srebrenica.  I don't know when.  A few months after

13     the events in Srebrenica.  I didn't know what the directive contains.

14     Only when some discussions started about all of that, it was only then

15     that I -- and then I reacted as well.  And now, today, after what I have

16     just seen, I didn't have that.  Now I'm 100 per cent convinced that

17     that's -- that there was a deliberate alteration because the order issued

18     by the Drina Corps doesn't mention that, and no corps has the right to

19     change anything in the wording of the Main Staff.  However, the wording

20     of the Drina Corps document does not contain that sentence which makes me

21     even more convinced that that was subsequently added and perhaps it was

22     not even done at the Main Staff.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 25 -- or, rather, 234, that's in your

24     statement -- or, rather, that's your previous evidence where you mention

25     that Srebrenica was discussed.  You say the plan was to do this or that

Page 40199

 1     or the other.  Can you tell us whether at that session the

 2     Supreme Command made plan?  Was it discussed?  Did any decisions follow?

 3        A.   No plans were worked out.  It was only precisely outlined that

 4     those two enclaves should be separated from each other.  I know that.  I

 5     remember as much.  I registered that in the minutes of the

 6     Supreme Command.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to call up P3149.  It is something

 8     that you sent, the minutes of the session of the Supreme Command that you

 9     yourself did not attend.  And that was shown to you during the

10     cross-examination.

11        A.   Yes.  That was the fourth session that I did not attend.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see in e-court

13     page 13 in Serbian and page 14 in English.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I would be cautious before we go to documents and

15     place them in front of the witness.  I recognise this document was

16     discussed during the cross-examination, but it's a lengthy document.  So

17     I'd like to know -- and in particular in light of the fact that the

18     accused referred to the witness's evidence in chief rather than any

19     aspect of cross, I'd like to know how this arises from cross.

20             JUDGE KWON:  But you agree that this document was raised in your

21     cross-examination.

22             MR. TIEGER:  It was definitely raised in my cross-examination,

23     but for -- as I say, it's a lengthy document.  I don't know what point in

24     particular is being raised here.  And to give you an extreme example of

25     the abuse of such a process --

Page 40200

 1             JUDGE KWON:  He was about to answer the question.  Please leave a

 2     gap.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, it was put to the

 4     witness that after all, Mladic did respect him, that he expressed his

 5     esteem and General Subotic's statement was disputed from that aspect, his

 6     relationship with General Mladic, that is.  And this document contains

 7     explanations, so I wanted to ask General Subotic about that.  However, we

 8     can deal with it after the break if you wish.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Shall we take a break?  We will resume

10     at 1.20.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, sir, on page 17 on the 19th, on the 19th of June, you

17     were asked, and now I'm going to read this out in the English language so

18     that it would be properly interpreted to you:

19             [In English] "Q.  When did you first find out that there were

20     executions of any sort that took place in Srebrenica?"

21             [Interpretation] I'm not sure that on the 19th the word

22     "pogubljenje" was used.  I think the word "egzekucija" was used.

23              [In English] "A.  Sometime towards the end of July, the month of

24     July, I was in Pale, I was in Banja Luka.  I did not know a thing.  I did

25     not know a thing.  I'm telling you honestly.  Nobody ever informed me

Page 40201

 1     about anything.  I was in the office.  I didn't receive any report about

 2     that.

 3             "Q. Okay.  So you said sometimes toward the end of July you found

 4     out about executions that had taken place, and then you told us what you

 5     didn't know about or didn't or weren't informed about.  What were you

 6     informed about toward the end of July concerning execution of

 7     Bosnian Muslims?

 8             "A. Well, I was informed that Muslims, and I saw it on TV, that

 9     Muslims were provided with buses to go to Tuzla.  I was also informed

10     that Naser Oric, and I knew that already that Naser Oric had killed a

11     significant number of Muslims who did not agree with the things.  That's

12     what I knew, and I had that kind of information.  Not just me.  That was

13     generally known.  I didn't see anything.  I was not in the area.  I was

14     not duty-bound to go there."

15             [Interpretation] And then on pages 17 and 18 something was quoted

16     to you, Mr. Milinic's testimony, that is, and he said that he had not

17     heard until much later.

18             In this part of your answer where you said what you heard, again

19     I have to repeat Mr. Tieger's question to you, when was it that you heard

20     that Serbs executed prisoners in Srebrenica?

21        A.   I cannot remember the date, but I heard that in Banja Luka when I

22     was watching television and I saw them boarding buses and some other

23     vehicles.  That's what I saw on television in Banja Luka, and that was

24     commented upon.  So I was not in that area, so I didn't know anything

25     else.

Page 40202

 1        Q.   Which television was that, and what year was that?

 2        A.   Well, 1995.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And what did they say -- actually, first of all, in

 4     1995, in July, did you receive reports from the Main Staff that were sent

 5     to the Presidency?

 6        A.   No.  No.  I mean, at that time, no, I was in Banja Luka.  I was

 7     there, and Mr. Micic, your Secretary-General.  We had some assignments

 8     there.  So at that time we saw that in Banja Luka.  I mean, we heard this

 9     information in Banja Luka.

10        Q.   What's the television?

11        A.   I beg your pardon?

12        Q.   Which television was it when you heard that?

13        A.   It was on Serb television, I think, this relocation, the Muslims

14     moving.  I saw General Mladic there giving children something, whatever.

15     It was on television.

16        Q.   Thank you.  General, sir, that is beyond dispute, but this is

17     what I'd be interested in:  Did you receive any reports or did you find

18     out in some other way about some Muslims being executed or unlawfully

19     killed?  Not killed by Oric, but, rather, killed by the Serb army?  Did

20     you hear of that, and if so, when?

21        A.   No.  No.  When I returned to Pale, I did not receive that kind of

22     report, and I didn't find a report when I got back either.  Such a report

23     did not exist in our office.

24        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to see in these reports that were

25     sent by the security organs of the Main Staff to the Presidency was there

Page 40203

 1     any information to that effect, that the Serb army had executed someone?

 2        A.   I did not receive any such reports.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We'll go back to the session of the Supreme Command, and please,

 6     could we -- yes, we do have that document.  We've called it up.  It's

 7     your document P3149, and you are sending these minutes, and then

 8     Mr. Tieger said to you that at this meeting Mladic said that he respects

 9     you.  So could we please have page 12 in e-court in Serbian, and I think

10     it's 14 in English.

11        A.   Since I don't have the page number here, could that please --

12        Q.   This is what was put to you, this is what you were asked on the

13     19th, on page 77, lines from 5 to 19, I'll read it out in English:

14             [In English] "Q.  Do you agree in general that in this portion of

15     the Supreme Command session that was held on 31st of March, 1995,

16     General Mladic indicated his understanding of Mr. Karadzic as

17     Supreme Commander, his position as Dr. Karadzic's right hand, and also

18     offered a generous or fair assessment of you, at least not a hostile or

19     hateful assessment."

20             [Interpretation] And now please take a look at this page that we

21     see here.  Could we enlarge the bottom of the Serbian page, please.

22             Karadzic says:

23             "I cannot be the law, but I cannot operate outside the law.

24             "General Mladic:  None of us can be the law, and we cannot be the

25     law individually.  Don't say things to us.  We know what you want with

Page 40204

 1     that.

 2             "Karadzic:  Tell us what it is that I want.

 3             "Mladic:  I won't tell you what it is that you want.  I know what

 4     you are trying with that.  I know --"

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Are we on the correct page in English?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  It's at the top of the

 7     page:

 8             [In English] "So you are telling me what I want."

 9             [Interpretation] That is not the right translation.  "Well, tell

10     me what it is that I want," that would be the right translation.  And

11     then it says that this has to do with the suspension of the authority of

12     the Main Staff in connection with promotions.  They tolerated that for

13     you until now, but from now on we will see if we continue like this, we

14     will have to clear some things up, and then further on I say:

15             "Do Bogdan Subotic transfer that authority to you?"

16             And Mladic says:

17             "General, in relation to -- as far as I'm concerned,

18     Bogdan Subotic is not a person who should be mentioned in my presence."

19             And Mladic says:

20             "He was your choice for minister."

21             And I say:

22             "And it will always be my choice for as long as I am who I am."

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Are these expressions of respect for you?

25        A.   Yes, under quotation marks, because Mladic thinks that he is the

Page 40205

 1     smartest man in the world, that he's smarter than I am and that you are,

 2     and the prime minister, and that no one else knows anything, and that is

 3     how he treated me all the time.  I never responded to him.  You know that

 4     full well.  And there is no record of me standing up to him in any way.

 5     I simply tolerated it.  It's the kind of person he is.  As a matter of

 6     fact, I think that often he didn't really mean what he said.  Quite

 7     simply, he had this position -- I mean, he would be angry, whatever, and

 8     he had to blame someone for something.  I never accused him, to tell you

 9     the truth.  I never entered into any kind of polemic with him.  That's a

10     well-known thing.  You know that, but others know that too.

11        Q.   Thank you, but you did withdraw from the post of minister.

12        A.   Well, no, I was not minister any longer, but this conversation

13     took place three years later almost.  I mean, now three years later, why

14     would he mention all of that?  All of that was stated very clearly.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have page 18 in Serbian and 20 in English.

16        A.   Did you say 18 in the Serbian?  I can see page 19 here.

17        Q.   Well, that's all right.  It's in e-court.  You can see line 6

18     here.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please indicate where he's

20     reading from.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could you start over again and let us know where it

22     is in the English version.

23             THE ACCUSED:  Fifth line from the top, Excellency.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 40206

 1        Q.   [As read] "This is what we military men have been brought to,

 2     whether craftsmen or generals.  He can be arrested at Subotic's decision.

 3     We have no idea, only when we hear that he was arrested.  Did he commit a

 4     criminal offence?  It turned out that Vlatkovic had not been doing

 5     anything.  Karadzic:  But who did?  Someone comitted a criminal offense.

 6     Sorry, I do not know.  I do not know who should be arrested, and now when

 7     we are with Subotic, where did Subotic get such authority?  Who empowered

 8     him?  In whose name was he in power?  Does he have operational powers?

 9     He cannot appear as a general."

10             JUDGE KWON:  We can't follow with that speed.

11             THE ACCUSED:  Ah, sorry.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I do not know who should be arrested, and now when we are with

14     Subotic, where did Subotic get that authority?  Well, we can all read

15     that, and then Karadzic says:

16              "Everyone is empowered to make a criminal report, everyone.

17     Everyone who knows about a crime is duty-bound to make one."

18             And then a bit lower in my answer I say the military structure

19     cannot do civilian jobs nor can the civilian structure do military jobs.

20     That is very elemental.  And if we are not going to respect that, we will

21     introduce chaos to the country, and we will lose the country.

22             And then again Karadzic says:

23             "The Main Staff is the operational body, as the police are

24     located in the Interior Ministry but are not interior ministry."

25             And then I say:

Page 40207

 1             "The army must go to the ministry in the same way that the police

 2     goes to the ministry."

 3             Did you know about these positions of mine about the army and the

 4     police?

 5        A.   Well, it's just some story going around.  Mladic's problem was

 6     that there was somebody there who had the right to oversight, and even

 7     though I lost the right of oversight over the army, I remained until the

 8     end of the war with the right to the oversight of other state organs.

 9     This is something that was never abolished.  And as the inspector in

10     chief, this is what my main task was.

11             It says to determine and check measures established by law for

12     the defence of Republika Srpska.  That is the first assignment.  The

13     second assignment is to --

14             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I initially thought that the witness was reading

17     from or reciting something from memory or reading off the screen but he's

18     referring to some document, some small document he has in his hand, and

19     reading from that, so I think we need to know what that is.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Subotic --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my identification as chief

22     inspector, and it's there in the documents, but I did bring it, but this

23     is in the documents.  It's contained in the documents.  So I had four

24     assignments.  I read the first one, if you noted it down.  The second one

25     is to establish the system of command.  That is something that I was

Page 40208

 1     doing in that year, and since Mladic asked the president for me to stop

 2     monitoring the army, I didn't do that anymore.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Subotic, do you remember what the question was

 4     from Mr. Karadzic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember the question, but

 6     Mladic disputes all of that here in this conversation.  He places an

 7     anathema on that.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you -- could you concentrate on answering the

 9     question put by Mr. Karadzic, and if you would like to refer to

10     something, please let us know.  You are free to consult any document you

11     have with you now, but please let us know in advance.

12             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   General, sir, I believe that we already have that in the

16     statement.  I'm just asking you this:  This position of mine that the

17     police should be in the Ministry of the Interior and that the armies in

18     the Ministry of Defence was something that was proper and correct and

19     based on the law, and did I manage that implement that?

20        A.   It was correct and proper.  I really couldn't give you the

21     percentage to the extent to which it has successful, but in any case, it

22     was not quite successful.  It wasn't fully implemented.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Tieger mentioned your paragraph 169, I think,

24     where I think you -- and he mentioned that you said that there was a

25     letter in which President Milosevic bypassed Karadzic and promoted

Page 40209

 1     Mladic.  Do you stand by that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  He sent a letter also to Alija Izetbegovic and -

 3     wait, let me see to who else - and to Mladic.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 15459 and

 6     on the other side can we look at 15461, both are Serbian versions, and

 7     they can follow the English version on their monitors.  Can we zoom in on

 8     this, please.  Could we have 15461 on the right side, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you please tell us what this is, please?

11        A.   These are the two letters I mentioned.  On the left-hand side is

12     the letter to Alija Izetbegovic.  I don't know if I ought to read it.

13     And then on the right-hand side is the letter to General Ratko Mladic,

14     and there is no mention anywhere of the president of the republic,

15     Karadzic.

16        Q.   Could you please read the first sentence from the Mladic letter?

17        A.   I am addressing you and the Main Staff.  It says General, sir,

18     I'm addressing you and the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and

19     thereby the leadership of Republika Srpska at the moment in time when all

20     the absurdity of the civil war in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina

21     is becoming obvious and when, and so on and so forth.

22        Q.   Thank you, General, sir.  Can we look at the last pages of both

23     letters so that we can see when it was signed and who signed it.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

25     translation.

Page 40210

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letter sent to Izetbegovic was

 2     sent from Belgrade on the 1st of August, 1995, and there is the signature

 3     of Slobodan Milosevic and his signature, and then it says CC or

 4     attachment letter sent to General Ratko Mladic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And can we look at the last page of the document on the

 7     right-hand side, please.

 8        A.   Well, the sheet needs to be scrolled up a little bit.  A little

 9     more, please.  Otherwise, the signature is probably on the next page.

10     The one on the right-hand side, the one to the -- to

11     General Ratko Mladic.

12        Q.   Well, perhaps it's lost somewhere.  You can see the ERN number at

13     the top.

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   And, General, sir, how was this taken, this double letter in

16     Republika Srpska?

17        A.   Well, generally speaking it was a sorry affair.  First of all,

18     Serbia did not do much to help us, neither did Slobodan Milosevic, and

19     then with this letter they actually did us a disservice, especially --

20     well, this is a strange thing for everybody.  It was unnecessary and so

21     on.

22        Q.   General, sir, did you know, did you find out, did you establish

23     if there was any kind of and what sort of joint criminal enterprise there

24     was --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just before going into that question, I don't follow

Page 40211

 1     that this is a "double letter," because it's impossible to see the

 2     English translation at the same time.  What did you mean, Mr. Subotic, by

 3     "double letter"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say that in this address

 5     to Alija Izetbegovic, I wanted to say what does Slobodan Milosevic mean

 6     in addressing Alija Izetbegovic at the end of the war when we were losing

 7     territories en masse?  The whole world was against us.  What does that

 8     mean?  What is that then?  And he's not addressing the president of the

 9     republic, but he's addressing the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina who

10     started the war.  And then on the other side here, he is vilifying the

11     president of the republic and placing his weight behind Ratko Mladic, who

12     at the time was planning a coup d'etat against Karadzic.

13             JUDGE KWON:  But what does a "double letter" mean at all?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'm afraid that it

15     was I who said that in my question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, two letters were sent, one to

17     Alija Izetbegovic, one to Mladic.  In that sense, it's -- there are two

18     letters.  The one to Alija does not excite us, and it does not -- didn't

19     mean anything to us, but the one to Mladic, it really got us into a

20     state, and it did mean something to us.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The contents are different, Mr. Subotic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course they're different,

23     because the situation is different, but --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please carry on, because I was confused because you

25     compared -- tried to compare these two letters.

Page 40212

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  General, can you just please tell us what would the

 3     normal procedure be?  How should it have been in Republika Srpska?  Who

 4     would be the counterpart, the partner to Izetbegovic in Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Well, it should have been addressed either to the government or

 6     to the president or to the Assembly, one of those three segments.  If it

 7     had been written to any one of those, then it would have been all right.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I put a question, but then there was this

 9     clarification afterwards.

10             General, sir, throughout the whole time that you were dealing

11     with state and administrative affairs, did you come across any evidence

12     or knowledge that there was any kind of joint criminal enterprise on the

13     Serbian side?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  I think the Court has already expressed its position

16     in -- with similar attempts by the accused to ask such broad

17     conclusionary, legalistic and inappropriate questions.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can rephrase.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let us hear the question then.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   General, sir, throughout the whole cross-examination regarding

22     the elements, it is understood and implied in my charges that he entered

23     into a joint criminal enterprise with many people including Mladic,

24     including President Milosevic, including the opposition, for example,

25     Seselj and so on, that I joined that enterprise in order to commit

Page 40213

 1     crimes.  Did you know of the existence of any kind of joint criminal

 2     enterprise of that type?

 3        A.   Absolutely --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No.  That's a kind of legal assessment.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   All right.  Very well.  Then we'll do it like this:  Was there

 7     any agreement?  Did you find out about any agreement between myself and

 8     anyone else about the commission of any kind of crime?

 9        A.   There was nothing like that.  It did not exist.  I absolutely

10     state that no one in our republic ever thought about anything like that,

11     never mind found out or established it.  I personally think that this is

12     some kind of made-up thing, criminal enterprise, because that is the

13     first time in the history of human warfare and human living, life, that I

14     ever heard of anything like that, and I tried with some very intelligent,

15     wise people to get them to explain it to me, and nobody could do that.

16     It's a very unclear thing.

17        Q.   So any kind of agreement like that, any kind of commission of

18     crimes?

19        A.   No, no.  No kind of commission of crimes.  I'm not aware of

20     anything like that.  If anybody else knew anything like that, then they

21     would need to prove it.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat his question.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say anything after the answer of the

24     witness?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.  I just thanked the

Page 40214

 1     witness.  My question was:  Was there any kind of agreement in order to

 2     commit crimes, agreement between myself and anyone else, and I think that

 3     the witness answered that question.  And then I also said that I would

 4     like to tender these two documents.  Perhaps that's what it was, and that

 5     was not recorded.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive them.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive them separately.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3718 and D3719 respectively,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Subotic, do you know when this letter to Mladic

12     was sent by President Milosevic?  Roughly.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the date is here on the

14     letter, Belgrade, August 1st, 1995, and that was sent to Mladic then

15     also.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That was a letter to President Izetbegovic.  I'm

17     asking --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the same time, in 1995 when the

19     initiative was started for the replacement of Mladic, that's when it was

20     sent.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, sir.  I have no

23     further questions for you, and I would like to thank you on behalf of the

24     Defence for coming to testify.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.


Page 40215

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Unless my colleagues have a question for

 2     you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Subotic.  On behalf of the

 3     Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you're

 4     free to go.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you for the

 6     professionalism of this Trial Chamber.  I'm absolutely satisfied for

 7     coming to testify.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Is the next witness ready?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  As far as I know, yes.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Ms. Edgerton will be coming in, probably is coming

12     in now.  While she's doing so, can I raise one housekeeping matter

13     dealing with MFIs?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             MR. TIEGER:  They -- this relates to two MFI documents that

16     needed a translation and now have one that I understand has been

17     uploaded.  It's P6394 MFI, and 6395.  So both the English and B/C/S have

18     been added in e-court, so I would ask now that they be fully admitted.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  The Chamber will take a look and issue

20     an oral ruling.

21             Does the Defence take any position with respect to these two

22     documents?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't oppose it, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness entered court]


Page 40216

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  PETAR SALAPURA

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Salapura.  Please be seated and make

 7     yourself comfortable.

 8             Probably you heard this advice from the Mladic Chamber, but I

 9     have to repeat it for record.  Mr. Salapura, before you commence your

10     evidence, I must draw your attention to a Rule that we have at this

11     Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E).  Under this Rule, you may object to

12     answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from

13     the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you.  In

14     this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to

15     an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

16     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

17     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as

18     a -- as a consequence you refuse to answer question, I must let you know

19     that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question, but

20     in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony

21     compelled in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might

22     be laid against you -- in any case that might be laid against you for any

23     offence save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

24             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Salapura?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.


Page 40217

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Salapura.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   I would kindly ask you, and I would like to remind myself because

 8     I'm the main culprit here, that you make a break after my question and

 9     that both of us speak slowly so that our words may be recorded properly.

10             Colonel, sir, could you please tell us where and when you were

11     born.

12        A.   I was born on the 20th of August, 1948, in Bjelaj village in the

13     municipality of Bosanski Petrovac in the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us your father's name?

15        A.   Milan.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Although that is already in your statement, could you

17     please tell us something about your career path.  In addition to what is

18     already in your statement, can you tell us whether you were ever

19     decorated or awarded?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could you please mention some of your decorations, when you were

22     decorated, and by whom?  Was that while you were still in the JNA or

23     later?

24        A.   My decorations mostly date back to the period of the JNA.  While

25     I served in the VRS, I only got one decoration.

Page 40218

 1        Q.   Well, we did not outdo ourselves it seems.  Thank you, Colonel,

 2     sir.  Did you provide my Defence team a statement?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to call up 1D9615 in e-court.  Could you

 5     please look at the screen and tell us whether this is the statement that

 6     you gave to my Defence team.  It should be on the left-hand side.

 7        A.   Yes, this is it.

 8        Q.   Did you read the statement, and did you sign it?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

11     the last page to allow him to identify the signature on it.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect what you said

15     to the Defence team?

16        A.   Yes, it does.

17        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today in

18     the courtroom, would your answers be the same in essence?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Would I like to tender

21     this statement pursuant to Rule 90 ter -- 92 ter.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering any associated exhibits?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  There are two associated

Page 40219

 1     exhibits being tendered.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Ms. Edgerton?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'd admit them all.  Shall we assign the numbers

 5     for them.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The 92 ter statement will be

 7     Exhibit D3720; 1D6273 will be Exhibit D3724 [sic]; and 1D6274 will be

 8     Exhibit D3722.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we have the exhibit number again?  For the

10     exhibit number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1D6273 will be Exhibit D3721.

12             JUDGE KWON:  21, yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  And 1D6274 will be Exhibit D3722.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm now going to read a

16     summary of Colonel Petar Salapura's statement in English.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Just before Dr. Karadzic begins the summary.  If

20     he could have a look at the very last sentence of paragraph 6.  I can't

21     find any evidence to that effect in the statement, so perhaps he could

22     just couple check that.  And on the printed-out copy I have paragraph 6

23     begins with the road from Belgrade to Han Pijesak so the last sentence I

24     don't think is something that comes from his written evidence, although I

25     stand to be corrected if I'm mistaken.

Page 40220

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If necessary, then maybe ask the

 2     witness.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Colonel, sir, do you have your statement before you in hard copy?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The summary.  I

 7     thought that this referred to the statement.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you have the statement before you, sir?

10        A.   I have nothing before me.

11        Q.   Trial Chamber will allow you to have it before you and to use it

12     during the cross-examination.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Colonel please be

14     provided with a copy of his statement.

15             And now I'm going to read the summary in English.

16             [In English] Colonel Petar Salapura worked in the JNA until 1992

17     and then joined the VRS until his retirement in 1996.  He was head of the

18     administration for intelligence in the VRS Main Staff.

19             In May 1992, the leadership of Yugoslavia withdrew the JNA from

20     BH and the VRS was formed.  The VRS inherited the organisation of the

21     JNA.  After the JNA withdrew from BH, Petar Salapura's intelligence organ

22     was organised within the VRS.  The intelligence organ was given the task

23     and the right to deal with the Patriotic League of the Army of BH and the

24     Croatian Defence Council.  The security service did not provide them with

25     any information which put them in a difficult position.  The situation

Page 40221

 1     was also influenced by changes in other departments.  They were exposed

 2     to the attacks of Muslim paramilitary formations against Skenderija.

 3     They also had great trouble with public opinion.  They were blamed for

 4     not doing anything in Croatia.  Petar Salapura proposed that a department

 5     of administration be formed at the administration for intelligence and

 6     security.

 7             The AIS was established, and the chief of the administration was

 8     Colonel Tolimir, Colonel Petar Salapura was chief of the intelligence

 9     department, and Colonel Beara was chief of the security department.  In

10     1994, the AIS split into two administrations, the security service and

11     intelligence administration.  There were personnel problems.  None of the

12     departments in the corps had more than three men.  Half the intelligence

13     work at the strategic level was done by Colonel Petar Salapura.

14     General Tolimir dealt with staff co-ordination and contacts with the

15     commander.  The intelligence department was not as significant as the

16     other powerful, strong, and often rival services, interior

17     counter-intelligence services.

18             The intelligence service gathered intelligence in the war about

19     the enemy, the terrain, the facilities, and everything pertaining to the

20     enemy, but also about the overall activities, plans, intentions of the

21     international community, relations, upcoming conferences, concluded

22     agreements, et cetera.  The intelligence service had no jurisdiction over

23     internal matters.  The service operated twofold.  One part was the

24     intelligence administration with organs for data collection and the

25     intelligence centre.  The other made the unit part, these were organs in

Page 40222

 1     the staff of the corps, brigades, et cetera.  Colonel Petar Salapura's

 2     jurisdiction in the intelligence administration was very limited.

 3             In July 1995, Colonel Petar Salapura was chief of administration.

 4     At the time, the intelligence service focused on co-ordination and

 5     collecting intelligence pertaining to operations and events, which would

 6     ensure in the Serbian Krajina and the western part of Republika Srpska.

 7     The focus of intelligence was -- work was transferred to the western

 8     part, to Croatia, the BH Army, HVO, and the Croatian forces in Dubrovnik.

 9     There were indications that Croatia was preparing offences against

10     Krajina and Republika Srpska.  They received initial information on the

11     joint attack on the Republika Srpska Krajina and Republika Srpska from

12     intelligence services in Belgrade.

13             The road from Belgrade to Han Pijesak was cut off due to the

14     fighting in the area on 12th and 13th of July, 1995.  It was impossible

15     to contact General Tolimir that day or the following.  Petar Salapura

16     went from Bijeljina to Han Pijesak via Zvornik, Nova Kasaba, Milici, and

17     Vlasenica.

18             In Nova Kasaba, Colonel Salapura spoke with Major Malinic.  There

19     were a large number of captured soldiers at the stadium.  The situation

20     was quite relaxed.  Prisoners were sitting and walking about the stadium.

21     One could not fathom that anything could happen to jeopardise the

22     prisoners.  On the road from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac, a group of those

23     who surrendered were left on the side of the road.  One of the prisoners

24     activated a grenade, causing delays.  There were several tens of soldiers

25     and prisoners.

Page 40223

 1             In Bratunac there were many vehicles moving in all directions.

 2     There was a great deal going on.  There were many civilians there.

 3     Petar Salapura explained the situation to General Mladic in Srebrenica.

 4     They discussed the -- the expected attack.  As soon as combat operations

 5     against Srebrenica started, the monitoring of intelligence transferred to

 6     the Drina Corps.

 7             The 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was not linked to the

 8     intelligence administration.  They secured the prisoners at the stadium

 9     in Nova Kasaba.  The 10th Sabotage Detachment was an independent unit, a

10     headquarters support unit of the Main Staff.  Professional control

11     training, specialist training, proposal of use for reconnaissance task,

12     activities in the territory of the enemy, were conducted by the

13     intelligence administration.  Anything outside professional control could

14     not be ordered or interfered with by intelligence officers.  The

15     intelligence administration had nothing to do with Operation Srebrenica

16     in July 1995.  Liquidation of prisoners was never considered at the

17     Main Staff.  No one ever conveyed such an order.

18             The administration considered the liberation of Srebrenica

19     unnecessary, because of the expected negative reactions of the

20     international community.  In June 1995, the administration planned and

21     the 10th Sabotage Detachment executed a pre-emptive action in Srebrenica.

22     They wanted to avoid civilian casualties, but through restrictive actions

23     they demonstrated that they could enter the town whenever, but it was not

24     in their interest.  This was a message to the Muslim forces leadership in

25     Srebrenica and UNPROFOR as support to exert pressure against the Muslim


Page 40224

 1     side to stop premeditated provocations against the VRS.  The aim was to

 2     make it impossible for Muslims to carry out constant assaults, attack

 3     Serbian settlements and the VRS carry out provocations and inflict

 4     losses.

 5             And that would be a summary.  At the moment I would not have any

 6     questions for Colonel Salapura.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Salapura, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this

 9     case has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that is, your written

10     statement.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

11     Office of the Prosecutor.  Do you understand that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  May I just correct one

13     thing, if you will allow me?  The 10th Sabotage Detachment was not a

14     logistics unit.  It was an independent unit of the Main Staff.  It was

15     directly subordinated to the commander of the Main Staff.  The

16     administration was an organ for professional control of the detachment,

17     its training, equipment, and it proposed its use to the commander.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

22        Q.   Good afternoon, Colonel.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   Colonel, we're not going to be sitting for much longer today, but

25     I know you have a bad back and you've been sitting all morning, so if it

Page 40225

 1     becomes too much to stay sitting, I do invite you to let us know; all

 2     right?

 3        A.   Thank you.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   So, Colonel, this is the fourth trial that you've testified in in

 5     front of this Tribunal; right?  You've testified as a Defence witness in

 6     the prosecution of Blagojevic, and as a Prosecution witness in the case

 7     against General Tolimir, and as a Prosecution witness in the trial of

 8     General Mladic, and that makes this the fourth proceeding you've come to

 9     give evidence in; right?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in 2011 you also testified at the state court of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the trial of members of the 10th Sabotage Unit for

13     the killings at Branjevo Farm on the 16th of July, 1995; right?

14        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

15        Q.   Now, you explained in your statement that General Tolimir, as

16     chief of administration -- of the administration for intelligence and

17     security in the VRS was your superior.  Now, you know also that after the

18     trial where you testified, he was convicted of genocide and extermination

19     for the murder of Bosnian Muslim men and boys from Srebrenica, among

20     other things, and sentenced to life imprisonment.  You know that; right?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   And Colonel Beara, who you explained was the chief of the

23     security administration and your counterpart, was convicted in 2010 of

24     genocide, murder, extermination, and persecution and also sentenced to

25     life imprisonment for his role in the killing of the men and boys of

Page 40226

 1     Srebrenica.  You know that; right?

 2        A.   Yes, I know that.

 3        Q.   All right.  I want you, to begin with, to go over with me, if

 4     that's okay, some of the evidence you gave before another Chamber of this

 5     Tribunal yesterday and today while it's still fresh in your mind.  And

 6     I'm going to read to you what you've said and ask if you can confirm that

 7     for us.

 8             The first thing I want to turn to is yesterday, at transcript

 9     page 13102, and this is in respect of the killings in Srebrenica, you

10     were asked by my colleague, Mr. Vanderpuye, he asked you, and I'll quote:

11             "Did you not report this crime because you knew that other

12     members of the Main Staff were fully aware of it, both how horrifying it

13     was and of its scale and who committed it?"

14             And then His Honour Judge Orie asked:

15             "Or was it that the other part of the question or was it that you

16     had no obligation to report?"

17             And your response was:

18             "Yes, it's correct.  I heard there, as well from my operatives

19     that I talked to.  Everyone knew.  I think even the whole town knew about

20     it, let alone the army.  So I thought that it was a process that was

21     underway."

22             And then Judge Orie further asked you:

23             "Let me try to see whether I correctly understood your answer.

24     Do you intend to say that there was an obligation to report but that

25     there was no need to do that any further because everyone knew already?

Page 40227

 1     Is that how I have to understand your testimony?"

 2             And you said:

 3             "Yes.  I believed everyone knew, and when I received it, when I

 4     talked to my operatives, yes."

 5             Does that accurately reflect --

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  I didn't mean to interrupt you finishing your

 7     question, but, Mr. President, we don't have access to this.  This is a

 8     situation where because of the Rule 75 procedure we receive access to

 9     Mladic case on a very delayed basis, and so we don't have access to this

10     material, so I would ask that we be given access over the weekend and

11     that she ask any questions about the transcript or Mladic on Monday.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any difficulty postponing the remainder

13     of your question in relation to Mladic evidence to next week?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  None whatsoever.  My only interest in doing it now

15     was while it was fresh in the colonel's memory, but of course not.  And

16     we can e-mail the transcripts to Mr. Robinson immediately.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  And then deal with this and then let's

18     move on.  If you have -- Mr. Robinson, if you receive by e-mail, you have

19     no difficulty with proceeding with this part?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  With this question, yes, but we would like to --

21     if they have any other questions on the Mladic testimony then on Monday

22     after we've had a chance to review the transcript.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   I'll just deal with another --

Page 40228

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether witness has answered the

 2     question.  Whether you asked a question.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I didn't, but perhaps maybe it's best in all the

 4     circumstances just to go to another area in the time we have remaining to

 5     give Mr. Robinson a chance to look at the transcript.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   Did you follow that, Colonel?

 9        A.   Yes, but if you allow me, may I just say something?  Today we

10     discussed it again.  I asked for the recording to be listened to again to

11     make certain corrections in the interpretation or whatever it was.  So we

12     agreed this morning precisely on this and what all of this meant, or,

13     rather, all, because there were mistakes there.

14        Q.   Quite so, and I was watching that and I wanted to go over that

15     with you in totality, but what we'll do is we'll do it on Monday; all

16     right?

17        A.   [In English] Okay.

18        Q.   Just to go to another area, I just want you to confirm for me

19     Monday of this week you went out to meet with Dr. Karadzic at the gaol;

20     right?

21        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

22        Q.   Now, I noticed that one of the things you added to your

23     statement, and it was in paragraph 23, which is at page 26 of the English

24     and page 17 of your language, was that you had only met Dr. Karadzic

25     three times during the war and had no recollection of ever speaking with

Page 40229

 1     him on the phone, and you said the same thing during your testimony in

 2     the Tolimir case.

 3             Now, Colonel, when you talked about it in the Tolimir case,

 4     Mr. McCloskey showed you Dr. Karadzic's appointment calendar for 1995,

 5     and he explained to you that we'd received evidence that if there was a

 6     plus mark next to the entry in the appointment calendar, that means that

 7     it happened.  And I want to go to Dr. Karadzic's appointment calendar,

 8     which is P2242.

 9             Now, you saw during your testimony in the Tolimir case a

10     reference - and we could go to page 9 in both languages - a reference

11     that you had spoken to -- with Dr. Karadzic and the 18th of January, and

12     you were scheduled to meet him on the 24th of January.  And do you see,

13     Colonel, third up from the bottom on the 18th of January, reference to

14     you, your name for five minutes?  That's what the entry reads:  "Call

15     Professor Koljevic," with a plus sign, and then another plus sign with

16     what looks like a telephone exchange number, 42-243-074,

17     Colonel Salapura.  So you see that; right?

18        A.   I'm looking for it.  I'm looking for it.  Is it on the right-hand

19     side?

20        Q.   Perhaps if my colleague could enlarge the entry that's --

21        A.   Oh, I see the part written this hand, yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now -- thank you.  Now I'm going to show you a couple

23     of entries from that book.  In your Tolimir testimony you saw that you

24     were scheduled to meet with Dr. Karadzic on the 24th of January, and in

25     this book, if we can go over to page 15, the entry for 30 January, you

Page 40230

 1     see here that somebody by the name of Mico Pusic advises Dr. Karadzic

 2     that he should call you, and I'm going to take you to a few more entries

 3     and I'm going to ask you a question.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, if we could go over to page 16, I think, of

 5     this document, the entry for the 1st of February.  And I'll have to go

 6     over to my own e-court to tell everyone where it is in English because I

 7     don't see it in Cyrillic script at this moment.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I think page numbers are identical.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, correct.  Thank you.

10        Q.   This -- this says --

11             JUDGE KWON:  So shall we go to the English page.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Please.  So for the --

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, this is the previous page.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  1st of February on the English page.  Thank you.

15        Q.   So here, seven up from the bottom we see that you spoke with

16     Dr. Karadzic.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We may collapse the English.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Because the entry with your name has got a plus sign beside it.

20     And then if we go further over in this book.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Ms. Edgerton, did you say Mr. Salapura

22     met Mr. Karadzic?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  [Microphone not activated] I hope I said spoke

24     with --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

Page 40231

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I said spoke with.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.  Yes.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Now, if we go over to pages 25 of this book in both languages, it

 5     looks like if you go down to the entry of 28 February, you spoke with

 6     Dr. Karadzic's brother, Luka, who passes on a message to that effect,

 7     saying that you spoke with him.  And then if you go over to page 27 in

 8     both languages, the entry for 4 March 1995, you see your name.  And

 9     that's your extension, right, third up from the bottom?  226, that's your

10     extension number.  And that shows --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   That shows you spoke with Dr. Karadzic on the 4th of March.  And

13     I won't take you to the next page in the book, but I'll tell you that

14     there's also an entry that says you called his office - at page 117 in

15     both languages - on the 26th of September -- pardon me, the 28th of

16     September.  And it wasn't only for 1995 that we see that you spoke with

17     Dr. Karadzic.  If we have a look at P4368, which is Dr. Karadzic's

18     appointment book for 1994, and if we go to page 12 in English and page 19

19     in B/C/S, we should see an entry for 16 February 1994.  And that shows

20     that you called Dr. Karadzic's office with a message to contact somebody

21     named Zerar who has something important to say.

22             If we go over to --

23             JUDGE KWON:  The English page is not appearing as you go.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, page 19.  I spoke incorrectly.  I'm sorry,

25     Your Honour.

Page 40232

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Make sure that Chamber and other people are

 2     following.  Where is it?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  English page 12; B/C/S page 19.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  16th of February.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  Please continue.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   If we go over, please, to English page 15 and B/C/S page 23, and

 9     if we go to the entry for 22 February, we see your name again sort of

10     halfway down that entry, and your exchange, 226.  So Dr. Karadzic spoke

11     with you again on 22 February, 1994.

12             And if we can go over to English page 40 and B/C/S page 69.  It's

13     a bit difficult to decipher the date here, but that's an entry for

14     21 May 1994.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence, please, for a moment,

16     Your Honour.

17        Q.   And this shows that you met with him and 21 May.  And I'll just

18     tell you at English stage 98 and B/C/S page 180, you and he made contact

19     on 14 November 1994.  And I'd like to go over to a new document, please.

20     That's P1484, and it's the notebook of General Mladic, and I'd like to go

21     to English page 53, B/C/S page 57.  It should be an entry dated

22     13 December 1993.

23             I think I might have read you the wrong B/C/S page number again.

24     Your indulgence for a moment please.  The B/C/S page reference is 53.

25     And my apologies to you as well, Colonel.

Page 40233

 1             Colonel, this entry in General Mladic's notebook records a

 2     meeting in Belgrade with Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, General Mladic,

 3     General Milovanovic, General Djukic, General Miletic, General Maric, you,

 4     Mico Stanisic, Tomo Kovac, and for the Serbian authorities

 5     President Milosevic, General Perisic, Jovica Stanisic, and

 6     Frenki Simatovic.  And I haven't showed you all Dr. Karadzic's notebooks

 7     that record meetings with you, Colonel, but on the basis of that I've

 8     shown you alone, we see many more contacts with Dr. Karadzic than just

 9     three.

10             So you told two Trial Chambers about only three contacts with

11     Dr. Karadzic, and my question is:  Are you trying to hide the number of

12     contacts you've had with him, Colonel?

13        A.   No.  Direct contacts, that's what I meant, what I remembered from

14     that distance.  It's a different thing when we met up sort of all

15     together during the war.  Well, I mean even now.  Even now if I were to

16     enumerate all of that, I couldn't.  There were shorter encounters, longer

17     ones.

18        Q.   When you say --

19        A.   I mean, really, I have no reason to conceal any one of these

20     meetings.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have your statement?  You received your

22     statement?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do you ever the last page, paragraph 23?  Could you

25     read out aloud.

Page 40234

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the war I met with

 2     President Karadzic only three times.  I do not recall ever having talked

 3     to him on the telephone.  I never informed -- never informed

 4     President Karadzic about execution of prisoners in writing, nor did I

 5     discuss that with him.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Now you admit that you spoke to Mr. Karadzic over

 7     the telephone.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see here that there were

 9     telephone conversations -- or, rather, whether they were materialised or

10     not I don't know, but I'm talking about the three meetings I had with him

11     directly at my request now.  This was -- yes, yes.  All right.  Yes.

12     Okay.  I accept that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The second sentence in that paragraph.  Is -- now

14     you remember that and you admit it.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept that, and I see that.  I

16     cannot say.  I do not recall these meetings.  To this day I do not recall

17     them, but I accept that.  I see it's there on paper, so that would be it.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll adjourn for -- stop here and

19     adjourn for today.

20             Mr. Salapura, probably you are aware of this, but please do not

21     discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are giving

22     testimony, testifying.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say something about the

24     transcript?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we do it on Monday.  We'll continue on Monday


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 1     at 9.00.  The hearing is adjourned.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of June,

 4                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.