Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 40541

 1                           Thursday, 27 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, please continue, Ms. Pack.

 8             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           WITNESS:  MIRKO TRIVIC [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Cross-examination by Ms. Pack: [Continued]

12        Q.   I just want to remind you where we were yesterday, we were

13     talking about directive 7 and the words expressed within that directive,

14     and your last -- our last question and answer, just to remind you, I

15     asked:

16             "My question is that you had stated there, hadn't you, that these

17     words were very grave, yes?  Very grave?"

18             You said -- you answered:

19             "If you allow me, those were not words, that was a written

20     document.  None of my superiors ever informed me verbally to act in that

21     way, after all an order that I have to act upon as well as other

22     subordinate corps commands did not receive such a task."

23             MS. PACK:  I would like to have up on the screen, please, P03040.

24        Q.   Now, you can see there -- you've seen this document before, it's

25     dated the 20th of March, 1995, from the Drina Corps command and it is

Page 40542

 1     directed to your unit, amongst others, the

 2     2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, amongst others, headed, you can see the

 3     heading there:  "Order for defence and active combat operations, operate

 4     number 7."

 5             MS. PACK:  Can we turn in e-court, please, to page 6 in the

 6     English and page 3 in the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   You can see there under the heading number 2:  Tasks -- the tasks

 8     of the Drina Corps --

 9             MS. PACK:  In English it's the preceding page, the heading.

10        Q.   And then if you read that first paragraph as you go through it,

11     I'm going to take it up about four lines -- three or four lines down in

12     the B/C/S and English and it says this "tasks for the Drina Corps" this

13     is headed.  "While in the direction" -- taking it up halfway through the

14     sentence:

15             "While in the direction of the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves,

16     complete physical separation of Srebrenica from Zepa should be carried

17     out as soon as possible, preventing any communication between individuals

18     in the two enclaves."

19             And then this sentence:

20             "By planned and well thought-out combat operations create an

21     unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival

22     or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa."

23             So you received this order; is that correct?  You can confirm

24     that?

25        A.   During my last testimony in the case of General Mladic, I was

Page 40543

 1     shown this same document and I would kindly appreciate if you can show me

 2     what I said on that occasion because I didn't listen to the tape.  I'm

 3     not sure, but most probably that's what I said.  That was in March --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the year.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- could you repeat the year.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document was drafted in

 7     March 1995.

 8             MS. PACK:

 9        Q.   I'm confused why you want to look at your Mladic testimony.  I'm

10     just asking you about this document.  It's addressed to your unit; right?

11        A.   Yes, in the heading you can see that it is also addressed to my

12     unit.

13        Q.   So you would have received it, you were the commander of the

14     unit, yes?

15        A.   Yes, precisely so.

16        Q.   You remember these words?

17        A.   No, I don't remember.  Until I have seen them in the document, I

18     didn't remember those words.

19        Q.   Now, on the 2nd of July you had your preparatory order that we

20     saw yesterday from the Drina Corps, and the order for Krivaja 95, the

21     order for active combat activities.  You remember receiving that order?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You've looked at it on many occasions previously in these

24     proceedings.  I'm not going to show it to you now.

25             MS. PACK:  It's P04481.

Page 40544

 1        Q.   And that order, it's right, isn't it, that order was also issued

 2     pursuant to operations directive number 7 and 7/1, yes?

 3        A.   No, that is not correct.  I explained yesterday --

 4        Q.   Let me just get the document up.

 5             MS. PACK:  P04481, please.

 6        Q.   You can see there the heading in your brigade as an addressee to

 7     the command of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, 2nd July, Krivaja 95,

 8     the order for Krivaja 95; right?

 9        A.   Yes, this is a task for active operations, but it is a very

10     specific task.  The previous order that you showed me a minute ago which

11     was drafted in March was handed over to me for information only because

12     my brigade was not holding positions or holding the lines facing the

13     enclaves, hence, according to the March order, I was not obliged to

14     become involved in any active operations towards the enclave.  As for

15     this order --

16        Q.   Okay, just a moment.  So you're saying you didn't read the March

17     order?

18        A.   I didn't say that I hadn't read it.  I believe that it reached my

19     unit, but since the brigade was not in combat contact with the units of

20     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning the enclaves, I had no

21     obligation to pursue active operations towards the enclaves, and

22     therefore I did not pay attention to this specific task.

23        Q.   And is your evidence then that had you paid attention to this

24     task you would have been shocked and horrified to have read the order:

25             "By planned and well-thought-out combat operations create an

Page 40545

 1     unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival

 2     or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa"?

 3        A.   I am sure that I never ever said anything in that respect, and I

 4     would like you to show me the transcript of any statement of mine and

 5     that I never said that I would be shocked.  I don't use such words and I

 6     think it's necessary for you to show me the exact content of my

 7     statement.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask you to look at the second paragraph, please, of

 9     this 2nd July document.

10             MS. PACK:  If we can look at page 3 of the English and in the

11     B/C/S, please, at page -- similarly at page 3.  Sorry, my apologies, in

12     B/C/S it's page 2.

13        Q.   You can see the second point:

14             "The command of the Drina Corps, pursuant to operations directive

15     number 7 and 7/1 of the Main Staff and on the basis of the situation in

16     the corps area of responsibility, has the task of carrying out offensive

17     activities with free forces deep in the Drina Corps zone as soon as

18     possible, in order to split apart the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica,

19     and to reduce them to their urban areas."

20             You can see that.  And if I just take it up to paragraph 4 --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   -- paragraph 4 identifies the objective:

23             "By surprise attack, to separate and reduce in size the

24     Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves, to improve the tactical position of the

25     forces in the depth of the area and to create conditions for the

Page 40546

 1     elimination of the enclaves."

 2             I don't want to stay too long with this document.  I want to ask

 3     you the question:  You would accept, would you, that this order is issued

 4     pursuant to operations directive number 7 and 7/1 as is stated there,

 5     yes?

 6        A.   No.  If you'll allow me.  Yesterday I said that you are taking

 7     out of the context of the entire directive one single sentence, and it's

 8     being used in the indictments as a description of how the enclaves were

 9     treated.  The entirety of directive 7 is a document drafted based on the

10     analysis of the situation in Republika Srpska or the Serbian Republic of

11     BH in the previous year and it reflects an attempt to find a solution in

12     order to change the situation in compliance with the objectives set by

13     the leadership of Republika Srpska.  This directive does not have its

14     objectives and it doesn't have any dead-lines.  It was written for the

15     year of 1995 and it was forwarded to the commands so that on the basis of

16     these optional solutions that can produce a resolution, they would plan

17     their activities in 1995.  Hence, the first order of the Drina Corps

18     command was written in March.  As for this order and the reason

19     underlying it is what is written under item 1, and that is this resulted

20     from the activities to -- done by the BH army in the enclaves.

21             As for the solutions, the corps commander is using the contents

22     of directive 7 in order to resolve the situation in his zone, and there

23     is under this item no reference to hopelessness of the situation,

24     et cetera.

25        Q.   Right.  I'm not asking you about this sentence for this -- this

Page 40547

 1     document.  I'm just asking you about the plain wording of paragraph 2,

 2     but if you're not going to answer my question, perhaps we'll move on.  I

 3     asked you, paragraph 2, the task there that the Drina Corps identifies is

 4     identified as pursuant to operations directive number 7 and 7/1, and

 5     you'd agree that that is what is stated there at the second point to --

 6     there of that document, yes?

 7        A.   Yes.  These directives provide the rights and the authorities for

 8     operational activities to be conducted.

 9        Q.   Let's move on to July, 11th July.  You entered Srebrenica.  You

10     met and greeted Mladic.

11             MS. PACK:  And we can see that, Your Honours, on the Srebrenica

12     trial video transcript, that's P04202 at page 21 and pages 201 and 202.

13        Q.   That's right, you entered Srebrenica when you left -- July;

14     right?  We're not going to look at the stills.  You can just answer my

15     question.

16        A.   Can you make your question shorter.  I was expecting to see the

17     footage.

18        Q.   Did you meet and greet Mladic on the 11th of July in Srebrenica?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   I'm not going to go into any detail.  I'm going to go to the

21     12th of July, to the meeting, the meeting you had at night and that you

22     have noted in your diary, 65 ter 25028.  You testified previously that

23     General Krstic was there, Drina Corps brigade commanders.  You arrived

24     around 9.00, is that right, before 9.00?

25        A.   Everything that I noted in my diary is correct and I stand by it

Page 40548

 1     concerning the timing but also with respect to other noted situations.

 2        Q.   And it's page 28 of the English and in the B/C/S also at page 28.

 3     General Mladic came at 2200 hours; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. PACK:  It's 65 ter 25028.  Thank you.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D3748, Ms. Pack.

 7             MS. PACK:  Oh, thank you very much.

 8        Q.   There is a meeting followed by a dinner; right?

 9        A.   I don't know where you see that.  I myself don't see any note to

10     the effect that dinner followed a meeting.  The meeting started at 10.00,

11     that is to say 2200 hours, but it doesn't say that it was after dinner.

12        Q.   You aren't now denying that there was a dinner; right?

13        A.   No, I'm not denying it.

14        Q.   Did Zvonko Bajagic at any point -- did you see him in the

15     evening?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17        Q.   Do you remember what you ate?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   In your statement you say that there was no mention of killing

20     people in Potocari, no information of any plan to execute persons from

21     Srebrenica.  Now, there's been numerous occasions on which you've

22     testified about this meeting.  I want to ask you, on this occasion do you

23     now accept that you discussed at least the evacuation of the civilian

24     population from Potocari?

25        A.   No.

Page 40549

 1        Q.   You didn't?

 2        A.   No, we did not discuss that.  Instead, General Mladic talked to

 3     someone on the phone, an individual, concerning the logistical issues

 4     pertaining to the evacuation.

 5             MS. PACK:  Could I ask, please, for 65 ter 25276 to be shown on

 6     the screen.

 7        Q.   That's your testimony in the Mladic case.

 8             MS. PACK:  And could we have e-court page 66.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting, can we please

10     be told to -- which date this entry refers?

11             MS. PACK:  Well, it's been agreed --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Did the parties not agree that it was on

13     12th of July?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President, we did.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I clarified that with the parties yesterday.

16             Yes, just a second.

17             MS. PACK:  Can I -- if there -- if this is --

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MS. PACK:  Mr. President, for fear that there's any issue over

20     the date, I'd like to just go back to the diary, please.  It's not the

21     D3748 portion of it so it's back to the 65 ter 25028.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MS. PACK:  And if we can just go to page 25 both of the English

24     and the B/C/S.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Was there an issue with regard to the order of these

Page 40550

 1     entries in terms of paginating.

 2             MS. PACK:  Well, Colonel Trivic will be able to confirm that the

 3     Srebrenica component of this diary is in the right order, going from 1 to

 4     25 to 30 and so on.  And then the diary is turned over and the Zepa

 5     component of the diary then begins flipped over and is numbered therefore

 6     out of order from page 75, I think it is, back -- back through, page 60,

 7     50, and so on.

 8        Q.   Is that correct, you can confirm that, Mr. Trivic?

 9        A.   Mr. President, I would like us to keep to certain sequence.

10     First there was mention of the meeting on the 12th at 10.00 in the staff

11     headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade.  Now I see that this is the 12th,

12     9.00 in the morning.  Now, I would like to know to which specific part of

13     my diary you would like to put a question to me.

14        Q.   Just don't -- don't worry about the entry for the 12th for the

15     time being.  His Honour asked a question and I was trying to elicit

16     clarification from you about how this diary is structured --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Not because of me but because Mr. Karadzic asked the

18     date, to confirm the date of the meeting at 10.00, although he agreed

19     that it was on the 12th.  We wanted to make sure with you.

20             MS. PACK:

21        Q.   So we're not going to look at these meetings here, these morning

22     meetings, but just to confirm with you that at page 25 what you see there

23     is your diary starting for the 12th at 0900 hours, is that right, you can

24     see circled?

25        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

Page 40551

 1        Q.   And then on that page --

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   -- you record entries which we're not going to look at for 0900

 4     hours.  And then if we go over to page 26 in both languages, there's

 5     actually another meeting there, isn't there, with General Krstic,

 6     recorded as no time at Vijogor village.  We're not going to go into that

 7     but that's the sequence.  It's later in the day, isn't it?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And then we go through that meeting to the following page, 27, we

10     don't need to look at that page.  We go through it to page 28 of both

11     B/C/S and English and that's sequentially, isn't it, still on the

12     12th of July.  We then have the meeting at Bratunac Brigade headquarters

13     and you have there the entry of General Mladic coming at 2200 hours;

14     right?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, in light of the testimony right now, we'll

18     admit from page 25 to 28.

19             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Together with the cover page.

21             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  I would just point out for clarification that if

24     you just look at the very next page of this diary it starts on a meeting

25     of the 10.00 hours on the 13th, so I think that this confirms that this

Page 40552

 1     all took place on the 12th.

 2             MS. PACK:  Yes, well perhaps if we could also have admitted the

 3     following page, 29.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MS. PACK:

 6        Q.   Now, we were looking at your Mladic testimony, 65 ter 25276,

 7     please, and it's page 66, just to remind you what I'd asked you a few

 8     moments ago in relation to that.  I'd asked you whether you now accepted

 9     that you discussed at least the evacuation of the civilian population

10     from Potocari.  And let me just remind you of your earlier testimony in

11     the Mladic case.  I'll just read from Judge Orie's question to give you

12     context at line 6:

13             "Judge Orie:  We have now spent two or three questions on whether

14     prisoners or personal prisoners or disarmed enemy soldiers were

15     mentioned.  Were they not mentioned at all during the meeting, in between

16     the meetings, dinner, after dinner, before dinner?  Was any -- but was it

17     ever mentioned that there were prisoners or possibly prisoners or

18     disarmed enemy soldiers?  Clear question, please, a short answer."

19             And your answer:

20             "Thank you.  During that day at the meeting and during the dinner

21     there was no talk of prisoners of war or disarmed enemy forces.  All that

22     was discussed was the evacuation of the population, evacuation of the

23     Muslim population from Potocari."

24             Do you remember that testimony?

25        A.   I do remember in relation to this testimony there was a problem

Page 40553

 1     and then I asked that the tape be heard to check what I said.  There was

 2     a certain slip of the tongue by attorney Lukic who had put a question

 3     regarding a meeting that day at the Fontana Hotel, and that's where some

 4     confusion occurred about the question.  And then the Presiding Judge, in

 5     order to clarify everything at my request for the tape to be listened

 6     again, he granted a break and then after the break we did not go back,

 7     they did not take me back again to that question or to the substance of

 8     my testimony regarding that particular question.  I said earlier that the

 9     only thing in my view, according to my recollection that had to do with

10     the evacuation, was a telephone conversation by General Mladic about the

11     evacuation of the population.

12        Q.   Well, it's right, isn't it, you did -- these words did slip out

13     during your answer to Judge Orie's question, they slipped out, and -- and

14     you subsequently denied having said them and the transcript was then

15     checked.  And here is the transcript, still retaining the words that you

16     said during your testimony; right?

17        A.   I was not permitted to put any questions then and to respond to a

18     specific question in order to clarify the situation.  They said that that

19     matter was done.  I don't want you to use something that I was not

20     permitted to express my view once more about that particular meeting at

21     the brigade HQ.

22        Q.   Well, you were given an opportunity, Colonel Trivic, and the

23     point is that those words inadvertently slipped out in your answer to a

24     question from the Judge and they, in fact, expressed the truth of the

25     matter, don't they, that that was a topic that was discussed at that

Page 40554

 1     meeting; right?

 2        A.   That was not the topic that was discussed at that meeting, and I

 3     repeat, I said then also - I even told the Presiding Judge or his

 4     associate - that I did not permit anyone to impute to me something that I

 5     never said.  I did not say that the topic of the meeting was the

 6     evacuation of the population, but the report and tasks for the continuing

 7     activities by the army.  Perhaps this was discussed at some other

 8     meeting, but I did not attend any such meetings.

 9        Q.   I want to move on to the 13th of July.  You testified previously

10     about leaving then towards Zepa and passing Nova Kasaba.  You remember

11     that testimony?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. PACK:  Can we turn, please, to 65 ter 25032.

14        Q.   This is your testimony in the Popovic case, and I'd like to turn,

15     please, to e-court page 65.  And it's taking it up from the bottom of the

16     page and then we are going to go over to pages 66 and 67 and I will read

17     it slowly.  And I'm going to read this testimony to you and I'm going to

18     ask you if you confirm it, please.  Just to put it in the context, you

19     were talking about your journey passed -- your route passed Nova Kasaba

20     at around 1700 hours --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please speak into the

22     microphone.

23             MS. PACK:

24        Q.   You're talking about your journey at around 1700 hours when you

25     passed Nova Kasaba, is that right?  You remember the timing being around

Page 40555

 1     1700 hours?

 2        A.   If this was recorded, I don't know and it says here 11, but I

 3     think it was in the afternoon.  But I accept this as the --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1700 hours.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I do accept the testimony as it

 6     stands.

 7             MS. PACK:

 8        Q.   Okay.  So just taking it up then.  The question:

 9             "And en route to Krivaca, did you see any groups of Muslim

10     prisoners anywhere?"

11             Your answer:

12             "Yes, of course.  I saw a large group of people sitting down on

13     the football-pitch in a settlement called Nova Kasaba, on the right-hand

14     side of the road as I was moving."

15             MS. PACK:  If we could go to page 66, please:

16             "And do you recall how those prisoners were arranged, if at all,

17     on that football field, in what manner, if at all?

18             "A.  They sat in rows.

19             "Q.  And can you estimate at all, approximately, how many

20     prisoners you saw on that football field as you drove by?

21             "A.  Earlier in my testimony -- it's difficult to give an

22     evaluation knowing the size of the football-pitch and the markings on the

23     pitch.  It's difficult to evaluate how many people can be seated on

24     100 square metre.  Well, if you manage to estimate that number, you can

25     multiply it by 100.  I never tried before to arrive at a number.  If you

Page 40556

 1     can seat two people on one square metre, then you can possibly calculate

 2     how many there were.

 3             "Q.  Well, let me ask you this, then, sir:  Do you recall

 4     approximately how full this football field was with prisoners?

 5             "A.  That entire area was covered with people sitting.

 6             "Q.  And who was guarding them?

 7             "A.  I was able to see military policemen, and I believe there

 8     were soldiers, conscripts doing their regular military service and who

 9     were in training in Nova Kasaba, which had a military police battalion

10     that trained these soldiers; that is, younger soldiers who were in

11     training to become military policemen.  I don't know.  Maybe there were

12     some senior troops as well, but I remember the younger ones.

13             "Q.  And to which unit was this military police battalion

14     attached, sir?

15             "A.  It belonged to the Protection Regiment of the Main Staff."

16             Over on to the following page, please:

17             "Q.  Is that also known as the 65th Protection Regiment, sir?

18             "A.  Yes.

19             "Q.  And are you aware of whether or not there is a facility for

20     that military police battalion in that area?

21             "A.  That military police battalion was normally stationed in

22     that area, in that settlement, in the school building, and this site was

23     just outside the settlement.  The football-pitch was just outside the

24     settlement where those seated people were."

25             And just taking it up from lower down the page:

Page 40557

 1             "Q.  And during this period of time, in July of 1995, did you

 2     know any of the officers within the 65th Protection Regiment or the

 3     military police battalion of that regiment personally; and if you did,

 4     can you tell the Trial Chamber their names and position?

 5             "A.  I certainly knew the regiment commander, Colonel Savcic, and

 6     I also knew Major Malinic, who was the commander of that battalion in

 7     Nova Kasaba, the battalion that had those young soldiers in training."

 8        Q.   So you testified to that effect in the Mladic -- sorry, in the

 9     Popovic case, and you would confirm the truth of your testimony in --

10     would you?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. PACK:  And if we can just go to 65 ter 25276 at page 80.

14        Q.   We're going back to the Mladic testimony now, talking further

15     about the football-pitch at the top of page 80 and you're asked -- you

16     answer:

17             "They said at the football-pitch, at the football stadium, on the

18     right side of the road as I was moving along the road, I cannot tell you

19     how many there were.  I didn't count.  But almost the entire

20     football-pitch was taken up by them.  They sat on that pitch."

21             And the Judge asked you:

22             "How were they dressed?"

23             You answer:

24             "They were in the clothes that they wore at the time.  I didn't

25     pay attention to what they were wearing.  This was in Nova Kasaba.  Along

Page 40558

 1     the road I saw several smaller groups of disarmed --"

 2             And the Judge asks you:

 3             "I am asking about Nova Kasaba.  You explained that you saw them

 4     sitting on the football-pitch, and were they in uniforms or in civilian

 5     clothes?

 6             "A.  I didn't pay attention to the clothes that they wore.  I

 7     don't think it's important.  They could have changed their clothes to

 8     fair better."

 9             You stand by that testimony?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And let me please ask you about a further passage of testimony in

12     the Mladic, and this is just moving back, I'm afraid, to page 77.  This

13     was in answer to questions from Judge Orie.  Now, you have clarified in

14     your prior testimony - this was in Popovic prior to this - you clarified

15     that you regarded these men, these men you saw in Nova Kasaba sitting in

16     rows on the football-pitch as "disarmed enemy forces," not detainees.

17     Would you stand by that prior testimony, that was how you characterised

18     these men?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And so you're asked -- I just remind you of your testimony in

21     Mladic regarding this at page 77.  And you were asked by Judge Orie:

22             "Sill, my question is:  How could you know that they were -- and

23     for example, not non-combatants?

24             "A.  All of them who had set out to break through towards Tuzla,

25     towards the canton where they wanted to go, in order not to become

Page 40559

 1     prisoners of war, all of them put themselves in the position of being

 2     disarmed enemy forces.

 3             "Q.  So therefore your explanation is that if someone decided to

 4     try to leave the area through the woods instead of surrendering, that

 5     they for that reason were part of enemy forces.  Is that your testimony?

 6             "A.  All of those who decided to set out with the soldiers of the

 7     28th Division - I don't know whether all of them were members of the

 8     28th Division or not, nobody knows that - but all of those who had set

 9     out to break through expecting to go towards their own free territory

10     across the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska brought themselves

11     in a position where they became disarmed enemy forces because the

12     Army of Republika Srpska was concluding its offensive and was in the

13     pursuit stage.  Had they decided earlier on to surrender via their

14     representatives, via their commanders, once they saw that they were in an

15     impossible situation, then they would have become prisoners of war.  This

16     was my interpretation and the interpretation of the international laws of

17     war."

18             You go on:

19             "They put themselves in this situation where they became disarmed

20     enemy forces."

21             You remember that testimony?

22        A.   I remember the testimony, but there is something in the

23     translation that in another situation or during deliberations of charges

24     in the indictment, I did not say that the Army of Republika Srpska was

25     concluding the offensive or was in the pursuit stage.

Page 40560

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he's --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Trivic, the interpreters missed

 3     part of your answer.  Could you repeat it, kindly.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with the gist, and of

 5     course I would repeat the same thing, perhaps not word for word the way

 6     it was said then.  But there is one problem in the interpretation, at

 7     least that's how I heard it.  In the part which says that the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska was in the pursuit stage, you cannot translate

 9     it like that, "u fazi progona."  I don't know English, so perhaps you can

10     look at that and correct it.

11             MS. PACK:

12        Q.   I'm asking you about your qualification of -- of these men whom

13     you saw sitting in Nova Kasaba at the football field.  Can I pursue it --

14        A.   All right.

15        Q.   -- you accept, don't you, that the group you saw at Nova Kasaba

16     included civilians, but your point is that they brought themselves into

17     the position where they became disarmed enemy soldiers; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

20             MS. PACK:

21        Q.   Now, you're aware now that many hundreds of Bosnian --

22             MS. PACK:  Sorry.

23             JUDGE KWON:  If I can intervene.  I'm interested in hearing from

24     the witness about his explanation about pursuit stage.

25             Could you explain it to me so that I can understand you well?

Page 40561

 1             THE ACCUSED:  It was said but it didn't -- hadn't been recorded.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So I'm asking the witness to explain to us in simple

 3     terms so that we can understand him well.

 4             It was recorded that "the Army of Republika Srpska was concluding

 5     its offensive and was in the pursuit stage."

 6             Could you tell us what it meant or how it should have been

 7     reflected in the transcript?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This part that was read out to me

 9     right now, Mr. President, is correct.  During an offensive, an assault,

10     which the Army of Republika Srpska or the Drina Corps was in the process

11     of executing at -- during those days consists of three phases.  There is

12     contact with enemy forces, contact and decisive battle, that's the second

13     phase.  And the last phase is pursuit of those who can no longer put up

14     resistance but do not wish to surrender.  That is the third phase of an

15     offensive according to the rules on offensive action of the then-JNA of

16     the former state which would end with the phase that is referred to as

17     pursuit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Let's continue.

20             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   You're aware now, aren't you, that many hundreds of the men held

22     at Nova Kasaba were subsequently executed?

23        A.   I don't know if those men were executed, the men that I saw as I

24     was passing by, the men that were standing at that football-pitch.

25        Q.   No, you said they were sitting in rows?

Page 40562

 1        A.   Yes, as far as I could see they were sitting.

 2        Q.   They were, weren't they, under armed guard with soldiers with

 3     guns pointed at them, weren't they?

 4        A.   Yes, they were guarded by soldiers, soldiers at the time when the

 5     state of war or imminent danger of war was declared.  They had weapons

 6     and those who were executing their guard duties also around the

 7     football-pitch.

 8        Q.   And you avoid qualifying them as detainees; rather, you describe

 9     them as disarmed enemy soldiers.  Why?  Why don't you call them

10     detainees?

11        A.   When the enemy side, the opposing side, in an offensive is

12     defeated and does not accept that defeat correctly but tries to break

13     through to part of its own free territory, and then it gets to the stage

14     where it is disarmed by the strength of the force that defeated it, then

15     that group of people brings itself in the situation of being a disarmed

16     enemy force.  And the -- and instead of acknowledging that they were

17     defeated, they would become --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Trivic, could you repeat from where you said

20     that group of people brings itself in the situation of being a disarmed

21     enemy force.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The commanders, komandirs and

23     commandants who evaluate that they can no longer put up any resistance or

24     for any other reason, they did not accept to acknowledge their defeat and

25     to surrender and to be listed by the enemy, but instead decided to go and

Page 40563

 1     attempt a break through to their free territory.  That phase of pursuit

 2     led to them being intercepted, prevented from reaching the free

 3     territory, and they were then disarmed.  But still, at that point in time

 4     they have not become prisoners of war.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So put simply then, is it okay to kill them all,

 6     those who were sitting at the football-pitch, because they were not

 7     prisoners of war?  Is that your evidence, Mr. Trivic?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never said that, and in any

 9     case I do not approve of something like that.  But that is not my

10     testimony, that then it is all right to treat them however anyone wants

11     to.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13             Please continue, Ms. Pack.

14             MS. PACK:  Thank you.  I'm aware of the time.  I'll just be

15     another five minutes or so, just another entry of the diary.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

18        Q.   I'm going to move on from this topic.  I'd like to take you,

19     please, to your diary again back --

20             MS. PACK:  65 ter 25028.

21        Q.   And it's the entry on the 16th of July.  This is then going from

22     the back of the diary non-sequentially.  I would like to take you to

23     page 73 which is the first day entry for the 16th of July, just to

24     confirm we've got the right date.  I'm not going to ask you about what

25     you detailed there, but this is just to have you confirm that we are

Page 40564

 1     looking at your entry dated 16 July, 2000 hours; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   This was at a time when you were engaged in the Zepa operation;

 4     is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Let us go, please, to page 72, which would be the next recorded

 7     entry in your diary for the 16th of July.  This is in B/C/S and English.

 8     And you record there a meeting with General Krstic on the 16th of July,

 9     yes?  Let me just read that out and just refresh your memory of the

10     content.  The first point, this is General Krstic presumably speaking to

11     you, addressing you:

12             "The VRS Supreme Command has decided that eastern parts of

13     Republika Srpska must be liberated from the Turks."

14             Do you remember him telling you that, "the Supreme Command has

15     decided the eastern parts of RS must be liberated from the Turks "?

16        A.   I remember that he said that.  I wrote that down and I explained

17     that to Mr. McCloskey, this expression, "Turks," as we soldiers called

18     each other.  They called Serbs Chetniks and we called them Turks.

19        Q.   The second point:

20             "The brilliant victory in Srebrenica is the biggest boost in

21     morale ."

22             Then there's point 3:

23             "The situation in the Srebrenica - Birac enclave," two points:

24             "Small groups of civilians.

25             "Small armed groups."

Page 40565

 1             So there you separate civilians from the armed groups?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You understand that distinction; right?

 4        A.   Well, certainly I understand that.

 5        Q.   And then you go on to further state:

 6             "The 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade and the

 7     1st Bratunac Brigade - to search the terrain.

 8             "4.  The situation in the zone of responsibility of the ...

 9     Zvornik Infantry Brigade is very complex."

10             And then I'd ask that we go to page 71, the next part of the

11     entry:

12             "Part of the Muslim's 28th Division has crossed the /canyon?/

13     Karakaj - Crni Vrh and reached the Bajkovica sector (around 2.000

14     soldiers)."

15             So those are the entries, what you were told by Krstic at that

16     meeting on the 16th of July; is that right?  You go on further but I'm

17     not going to go through that.

18        A.   With a correction, it's not a canyon, I want to correct that.

19     The interpretation was part of the 28th Division has crossed the canyon,

20     not the canyon but the road Karakaj-Crni Vrh, it is "komunikacija" not

21     "kanjon."  I would like that to be corrected.  Karakaj-Crni Vrh and

22     reached Bajkovica sector.

23        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  If we go to page 70 and this

24     is the following part of your entry for 16th July.  You talk about:

25             "Must enter Zepa by 1400 hours tomorrow."

Page 40566

 1             Then you have an entry:

 2             "PAD for launching aerial bombs to come tomorrow ..."

 3             I just want to ask you about that.

 4             THE ACCUSED:  May I have one clarification, whether those words

 5     are of the witness or he wrote -- recorded somebody else's words?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I think you can take up that issue in your

 7     re-examination.

 8             Yes, shall we continue?

 9             MS. PACK:  Yes.

10        Q.   We're dealing with the PAD for launching aerial bombs, and you

11     talked about this -- you'd been asked to describe what this entry

12     pertains to in your earlier testimony.  I'll ask to look at the Tolimir

13     testimony at 65 ter 25033 at page 72.

14             My apologies, I didn't ask, but with the diary I'd ask to have

15     admitted those pages related to the 16th July.  What -- we'll be looking

16     at them again after --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add them.

18             MS. PACK:  Just for now.  I'm grateful.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll add them to the Exhibit P3748.

20             MS. PACK:

21        Q.   And let me just read that out for your benefit.  You just

22     describe what this entry pertains to:

23             "A.  This entry pertains to the task to launch from an improvised

24     launch pad on a vehicle, launching of an aerial bomb which could not be

25     launched in the standard way but was, rather, used to produce

Page 40567

 1     psychological effects in a larger area, to affect the attitude of the

 2     people, not because it had chemical effects or anything of the sort but,

 3     rather, because it was supposed to produce a large explosion.  It was

 4     supposed to be launched from a trailer.  Its popular name was sow,

 5     'krmaca' in Serbian.  That's what this aerial bomb was called but it

 6     wasn't really very accurate."

 7             You stand by that prior testimony, would you?

 8        A.   Yes, but in the original part there's something wrong with the

 9     interpretation.  It's not improvised, it's the launching pad that's

10     improvised on a truck.

11        Q.   Well, perhaps the translation didn't get to you properly.  What I

12     read was this entry pertains to the task to launch from an improvised

13     launch pad on a vehicle?

14        A.   This answer of mine has to do with a question and an explanation

15     as to what this pad is, but there was no reference to whether there had

16     been any firing.  I was explaining what the effects were of that bomb,

17     what effects are achieved when it is launched, and it is not directly

18     related to what I noted down on the 16th.  Over there, it just says that

19     that launching pad is supposed to get somewhere.

20        Q.   That's fine.

21             MS. PACK:  Mr. President, there was just one matter because the

22     witness had asked a question about whether or not he had heard back from

23     the Chamber regarding his query over the transcript in Mladic.  This was

24     a topic I discussed earlier.  And I have the entry and I just wanted to

25     at least for the witness's benefit just go back and show him --

Page 40568

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MS. PACK:  -- the matter had been readdressed.  So we can just go

 3     back, please, to the Mladic transcript which is 25276.

 4        Q.   Just to -- page 86 of that transcript.  So just -- just to read

 5     what you were informed of then by Judge Orie.  This was on the second day

 6     of your testimony you were told:

 7             "Before Mr. Lukic continues his cross-examination, I would

 8     briefly like to deal with a matter which arose yesterday.  On the record

 9     we saw that you had referred to the evacuation of the Muslim population

10     from Potocari and a few minutes later you denied to have said any of such

11     thing, and I even suggested to you that you might consider that you may

12     have said it but that -- that you do not exclude for that possibility.

13     You insisted on it being verified.  It has been verified.  That means the

14     audio has been listened to and the translation has been verified.  This

15     is what you said:

16             "'Thank you.  During that day at the meeting and during the

17     dinner, there was no talk of prisoners of war or disarmed enemy forces.

18     All that was discussed was the evacuation of the population, evacuation

19     of the Muslim population from Potocari.'"

20             The Judge continues:

21             "This is what you said and that was how it was translated to us."

22             Okay?

23        A.   Okay, but then just this connection with that telephone

24     conversation that General Mladic had, not with us, the persons attending

25     the meeting.

Page 40569

 1        Q.   That's not what you say, is it?  And I would suggest to you that

 2     those words slipped out because you did discuss this topic and you

 3     unfortunately hurried then to retract; right?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But the witness said it was out of confusion.  Shall

 5     we leave it at that?

 6             MS. PACK:  I'll leave it at that.  Thank you.

 7             I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, you have re-examination?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A little bit, I hope, not very

10     much.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, good day.

13        A.   Good day.

14        Q.   In your diary the last entry for the month of July is the

15     29th of July.  Can you tell us whether at any one of these meetings

16     anyone mentioned killing of prisoners?

17        A.   No, not at a single one of these meetings, those that have been

18     recorded and also those possible contacts that I had with certain persons

19     at that time.  There was no talk of any killing.

20        Q.   Thank you.  On page 25, line 16, it says the Prosecutor says then

21     you say whose words did you write down in your diary, your own or

22     somebody else's?

23        A.   Attending meetings at one's superior means that one should record

24     what the superior officer is conveying.  That is how it is in military

25     hierarchy.

Page 40570

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On pages 16 and 17 you said that prisoners of war sat

 2     in an area of about 100 square metres, and if two persons were sitting in

 3     one square metre that that would have to be multiplied.  What are the

 4     dimensions of the sides of this rectangle or square of 100 square metres?

 5        A.   I'm not an expert.  I was surprised by that question then as to

 6     how many persons that would entail in such an area, a pitch.  I did not

 7     really think about how many people could sit in a football-pitch.

 8     Dimensions vary, I assume, they vary.  An Olympic stadium is not the same

 9     size as a village stadium and so on.  So I wouldn't want to speculate

10     with numbers.  Obviously this 100 square metres is 10 by 10.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

13     65 ter 2841.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   While we're waiting, if you wrote down in your diary who was

16     present, would you write down when people would leave early?

17        A.   No, I don't think I did that.  I'm almost sure I didn't do that.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now zoom in --

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Actually, take a look at this.  Are you familiar with this image,

22     the 13th of July at 2.00 p.m., is that the stadium?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now enlarge the stadium

Page 40571

 1     itself, please.  A little bit more if possible, please.  Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is that the image that you saw as you passed by the stadium?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  This is an image -- actually, this is the first time I

 5     see this, so it jogs my memory, the first time since I passed there.  And

 6     this commotion along the road, that involved those who were security

 7     people and then there were journalists and cameramen and some other

 8     soldiers.  So now this reminds me.  So it's not only trees.  I assume

 9     that this is satellite imagery and it involves persons who were also

10     standing by the road.

11        Q.   In this rectangle, Colonel, do you see these shadows, these

12     figures, the four in front of them, are those the guards?  And did they

13     hold these people at gunpoint, these people who were sitting there, as

14     had been suggested to you?

15        A.   No, not at any point in time, not here and also not the other

16     groups that I saw along the road.  There were soldiers who were guarding

17     these persons, that was the order of the command of the Drina Corps, to

18     guard these possible POWs.  So they were not holding them at gunpoint.

19     They were guarding them like any soldier would do.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that this has already been admitted and

21     that it does have an exhibit number, a P number; if not, I would be happy

22     to have it signed and admitted.  But I believe it's already been

23     admitted.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I cannot help you in this regard.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I believe it has been

Page 40572

 1     admitted.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, I was just going to say I'm sure it's

 3     admitted.  I don't know the number offhand.  Sorry to interrupt.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, just so there's no doubt about the

 5     reference, I think we should just admit this as a separate exhibit so

 6     that we know which photo this witness was referring to.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And if it turned out that it has already been

 8     admitted, we can strike it out.

 9             MS. PACK:  Yes, it's at page 27 of the Jean-Rene Ruez book of

10     photographs, but I don't have -- I unfortunately I don't have the exhibit

11     number on me right now -- perhaps not page 27, sorry.  The one that's

12     been referred to is page 26.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's admit it temporarily.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3749, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Colonel, sir, on page 6 something was discussed.  You said that

18     directive 7 and directive 7/1 was used as a basis which gave the

19     commander the right to act further.  Could you tell us whether everything

20     from the directive has to be carried out?  Actually, to what extent can a

21     commander be creative, or rather, assess the situation as it is?  In

22     addition to exercising that right, does he have to check everything?

23        A.   In the answer I've already provided today to one of the

24     questions, I said that a directive is a document, is written on the basis

25     of an analysis of the situation in the previous period.  In this

Page 40573

 1     situation, I think that it was written after the analysis of the

 2     situation in 1994 and that is why it was passed sometime in May for 1995.

 3     So it had to do with analysing the situation, seeing how objectives

 4     should be attained as the struggle for exercising the rights of the Serbs

 5     as a constituent peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina started.  So all of these

 6     problems were looked at and then it was put on paper according to regions

 7     in Republika Srpska that were covered by different corps of the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska, which activities, which tasks, how they will

 9     act in order to improve or at least maintain the situation as it was.

10             The Drina Corps was rather specific and it had this problem too,

11     protection from enclaves.  So they had a territory that had temporarily

12     been taken up of its own area of defence.  So that corps commander or the

13     commander of the Drina Corps did not -- actually, just used those rights

14     in terms of being able to act to improve his position, and he also asked

15     for what he could do on the basis of his own assessment.  In this

16     situation it was that action with the part of the free forces of the

17     Drina Corps to make the enclaves narrower, to separate them, and to

18     prevent further terror from the enclaves, by engaging also part of the

19     2nd Romanija Brigade which did not have positions facing the enclaves,

20     but had the task as a subordinate unit to send part of its forces to join

21     those forces that were supposed to carry out that offensive in terms of

22     improving the position of that unit in its own area of defence.

23        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  On page 5 what was read out to you was an

24     order and it said:

25             "Create conditions for resolving or eliminating or liquidating

Page 40574

 1     enclaves."

 2             What does this term mean, "create conditions"?  Can that be done

 3     without a new order or does any creation of conditions have to be taken

 4     into account as something that will actually be carried through?  What

 5     does it mean actually?

 6        A.   Mr. President, I think that that's from the order for action,

 7     where the objective of the forces involved in Krivaja 95 is to narrow

 8     down the enclaves and to create conditions.  So the objective ends with

 9     the separation and creating conditions for some further orders,

10     assessments, and so on, whether it is possible, whether it's not

11     possible, but to bring them into the situation so that they can take a

12     further activity.

13        Q.   Thank you.  This new activity, can it be carried out without a

14     new order?

15        A.   As a rule, no, but except in situations when conditions are

16     altered in the course of carrying out an activity in order to achieve a

17     certain objective.  In this particular instance it meant amending the

18     initial order that had to be amended because you have to create

19     conditions to have the axis of operations moved closer to Srebrenica

20     because we had daily assessments of the results achieved and then the

21     following day we adjusted the axis of operation towards the protected

22     areas of Zepa and Srebrenica.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On page 4 it was suggested to you that you had stated

24     that you were shocked and then you corrected that.  Can you tell us,

25     would you have carried out the element in the directive that did not

Page 40575

 1     feature in the order?  Did you -- would you have carried it out had it

 2     been included in the order and would any commander be obliged to carry

 3     out something that would constitute a crime?

 4        A.   There was no contents of that nature that was conveyed to me as a

 5     commander, either verbally or orally; and if it had been the case, I

 6     wouldn't have carried it out and I'm quite sure that none of my

 7     colleagues, other commanders, would carry out something like that.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  Thank you for coming here and answering my

 9     questions.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I noted down on my book and I forgot that

11     Jean-Rene Ruez's book was admitted in its entirety as Exhibit P4308.

12             MS. PACK:  Yes, and -- and, Mr. President, this -- this document

13     that is referred to is at page 36 of that exhibit.

14             JUDGE KWON:  In e-court?

15             MS. PACK:  Yes, thank you, in e-court.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             Unless my colleagues have a question for you, that concludes your

18     evidence, Mr. Trivic.  On behalf of the Chamber I'd like to thank you for

19     you coming to The Hague to give it yet again.  Now you are free to go,

20     but let us rise all together.  The Chamber will have a break for

21     20 minutes and we'll have another break during the course of next

22     witness's evidence.

23             We'll resume at 11.00 -- oh, I'm sorry, we'll resume at 10 to

24     11.00.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 40576

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  MILENKO KARISIK

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karisik.  Please be seated and make

10     yourself comfortable.

11             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Karisik, I must draw your

12     attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the

13     International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule you may

14     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or

15     even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

16     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

17     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

18     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

19     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

20     answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

21     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

22     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

23     would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would

24     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence,

25     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

Page 40577

 1             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Karisik?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General Karisik.

 8        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   I must ask you - and I will do as well - to pause between

10     questions and answers and to speak slowly so that everything that we say

11     can be interpreted and recorded in the transcript.

12             General, have you given a statement to my Defence team?

13        A.   Yes, I have.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D9210 in

15     e-court.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Please look at the screen.  Do you see the statement?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed the statement?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

23     last page so he can identify his signature.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Is this your signature?

Page 40578

 1        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you told

 3     the Defence team?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

 6     answers basically be the same as the ones contained in the statement?

 7        A.   Basically, yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to tender this statement and

 9     92 ter package into evidence.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from you, Mr. Robinson, about the

11     associated exhibits.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we're offering ten associated

13     exhibits at this stage, none of which are on our Rule 65 ter list because

14     the witness hadn't been interviewed at the time we filed that list.  I

15     can give you the numbers or we've actually communicated by e-mail so that

16     the Prosecution indicated the ones which it objected to.  I said we were

17     going to insist on one of those and the Prosecution agrees that that can

18     be an associated exhibit.  So if it's easier for the Chamber, we could go

19     one by one.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  The first one that we're offering is 1D09201.  Do

22     you want me to go the whole list?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Shall I hear the list of exhibits that the Defence

24     is tendering?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  So --

Page 40579

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall I deal with one by one?

 2             Mr. Nicholls, do you have objection to the admission of the

 3     statement?

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No, I do not.  And as

 5     I said in my e-mail which I think went all the parties, we objected to

 6     those I listed.  I withdraw the objection to 1D09204, and I think we have

 7     agreement that the rest will not be tendered and I do not object to the

 8     statement.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll assign the number for the Rule 92 ter

10     statement of the witness.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3749, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  And with respect to 1D9201, the Chamber is of the

13     view it does not form an indispensable and inseparable part of the

14     statement, in that the statement can be understood without it.  So we'll

15     not admit it.

16             What is the next item?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  1D09202.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3750, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Next is 1D09204.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3751.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  1D09205.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 40580

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3752.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  1D09206.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit D3753.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  1D09209.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  How is this intercept relevant, if you could have a

 6     word about it?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  It doesn't seem particularly critical, so I think

 8     we can leave it out if you --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, thank you.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  The next one is 65 ter number 17186.

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is not -- is of the view that this

12     document is not forming an indispensable and inseparable part.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I think my friend made a mistake.

14     10186 is something I objected to which he agreed would not be tendered.

15             JUDGE KWON:  1 -- I'm sorry.  10 --

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  65 ter 17186 --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, 17186.  Yes, I understood it was objected to

18     and Defence is not tendering it.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  That was my mistake.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Next.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  65 ter number 30720.

23             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the view that it has some doubt as

24     to the nature of indispensable and inseparable part of the statement as

25     well as the relevance.  So we'll not admit it at the moment.  So if it

Page 40581

 1     wishes -- the Defence wishes to tender that, it should deal with it live.

 2             Next one?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  65 ter number 30732.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3754, Your Honours.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  The last one is 65 ter number 30716.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3755.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Now I'm going to read a summary of General Milenko Karisik's

12     statement in English.

13             [In English] General Milenko Karisik was in a special unit of the

14     BH MUP from 1983 until the outbreak of the war.  He served as deputy

15     commander of the special anti-terrorist unit of the BH MUP.  This unit

16     was the strike force of the MUP of BH.  The strict regime for using this

17     unit required legal and professional justification for performance of the

18     most difficult tasks.  Special attention was paid to ensure that the

19     staffing structure corresponded to the population of BH.

20             After the multi-party elections in BH in 1990, the SDA personnel

21     were appointed to key supervisory positions in the Ministry of

22     Internal Affairs of BH.  This undermined the legality of the work and

23     professional principles of the organs of the ministry.  A new

24     organisation of the MUP was imposed.  The number of active policemen was

25     increased and, in particular, the reserve forces, mostly Muslims, were

Page 40582

 1     activated in all organs at all levels.  Huge resources were invested to

 2     arm the Muslims and Croats for conflict to create a unitary BH to the

 3     detriment of the Serbs.  Particular problems appeared in late 1991

 4     because of the negative tendencies in the MUP headquarters.  The unit

 5     started to perform tasks that were not within its remit.  Anti-terrorism

 6     training transitioned to military training.  There was clear deviation

 7     from the regular training plan in preparation for new purposes.  After

 8     the unit was compromised in this way, mixed motorised patrols were set up

 9     with members of the special unit and members of the JNA.  They did not

10     defuse tensions on the ground but provoked adverse reactions.  At one

11     meeting, Mr. Cengic said, quoting:

12             "The Muslims will sacrifice a million people for a sovereign

13     Bosnia."

14             The special reserve unit was filled only with Muslims.  The

15     formation of this armed unit undermined the ethnic mix to the benefit of

16     the Muslims.  Muslim officers who deserted the ranks of the JNA were

17     appointed to commanding positions already held by officers from the

18     professional special unit.  The personnel service of the MUP of BH was

19     completely gripped by lawless behaviour, upsetting the ethnic mix of the

20     unit.  Recruitment was carried out without any regard to selection

21     criteria.  After a series of the abuses in the use of the unit, Serbian

22     professional specials reacted by demanding a meeting with the MUP

23     leadership.  Although agreement was reached, it was not respected and the

24     unit was misused again on orders from the Muslim representatives.  This

25     impacted on the internal unity of the unit, and led to the breakdown of

Page 40583

 1     personal relationships and trust.

 2             After the failed attempts to keel life and work in the unit

 3     within the framework of valid legal regulations of the MUP, working

 4     together became impossible.  Momcilo Mandic signed a dispatch to split

 5     the MUP on 4th of April, 1992.  Based on the agreement reached at the top

 6     of MUP, the bases in Vraca, in the MUP school, went to the Serbian part,

 7     and Muslim-Croatian part of the specials remained in Krtelji.  It was

 8     agreed that the Serbian specials would leave with their personal weapons,

 9     equipment, and vehicles, but without armoured personnel carriers.

10     Milenko Karisik and his unit entered the school centre and encountered an

11     unexpected problem, coming under cross-fire from two directions from

12     Muslim paramilitary formations.  They were forced to defend themselves.

13     Two Serbs were killed and another seriously injured; however, none of the

14     Muslims or Croats were hurt because the Serbs' intention was only to save

15     their lives.  The Muslim MUP leadership had ordered the director of the

16     school centre not to allow Serbian specials to enter their base and to

17     use an armed operation to prevent it, the implementation of the agreement

18     on the splitting up of the special unit.  For the Muslim side, this

19     conflict was a test of the functioning of its paramilitary police

20     organisation which they had been preparing for a long time.  They wanted

21     to determine the readiness to use force and war to determine their

22     destiny and the Serbs.

23             The special units remained in Vraca until 10th of June, 1992.

24     From late July 1992 onwards, the detachment was located in Zvornik.

25     While in Vraca they came under daily attacks from Muslim forces.  They

Page 40584

 1     were attacked by infantry and anti-armour weapons and mortars as well as

 2     other artillery weapons.  General Milenko Karisik had no contacts with

 3     the Crisis Staff of Novo Sarajevo.  No non-Serbs were forcibly driven out

 4     of Vraca and Grbavica.  By mid-1992, the unit operated together with the

 5     Territorial Defence in Sarajevo in the defence and protection of the

 6     Serbs and Serbian settlements.  From mid-May 1992, the unit co-ordinated

 7     actions within the VRS.  After three months of engagement in Sarajevo,

 8     Milenko Karisik's unit was engaged in combat tasks throughout

 9     Republika Srpska.  The unit did not mount offensive operations, but

10     engaged in ad hoc combat operation zones if lines of combat were breached

11     and civilian population endangered.  The unit was used to disarm

12     paramilitary units appearing on the Serb side in Republika Srpska.  The

13     unit also took measures to establish law and order in Republika Srpska,

14     and to prevent serious crimes.  General Milenko Karisik's unit acted in

15     line with the rules of service and rules of war, as well as the

16     Geneva Conventions.  It never committed a single crime.

17             General Karisik was commander of the special police brigade until

18     February 1994, when he moved to the chief of the police administration.

19     In November 1994, he was appointed deputy minister of the interior and

20     chief of the RJB, public security department.  No one informed

21     Milenko Karisik that any crimes had been committed against the Muslims in

22     Srebrenica.  There were no plans to expel civilians forcibly from

23     Srebrenica or plans to capture and liquidate members of the

24     28th Muslim Division -- Division of Muslim army.

25             Milenko Karisik was not a member of the SDS or any other

Page 40585

 1     political party.  He never received instructions from them on any basis

 2     for the conduct of action of his unit.  The unit never committed a crime

 3     against Muslims or Croats.  No one ever asked him to commit a war crime.

 4     He never received any kind of order directly from Radovan Karadzic.

 5             General Milenko Karisik never informed President Karadzic orally

 6     or in writing that prisoners from Srebrenica had been executed.  He

 7     didn't have that information himself.  And that would be the summary.  At

 8     that moment I do not have questions for General Karisik.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  So I take it that Defence is not tendering any of

10     the associated exhibits admission of which was denied?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Correct.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just before we hear the cross.

13             Mr. Karadzic called you -- addressed you as "General."  Could you

14     tell us why it was so?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, in 1993 or 1994, I cannot

16     remember exactly, received the rank of general.  I got the rank because I

17     was the commander of that unit and the president himself perhaps can

18     explain better himself why I was given the rank of general.  As a

19     professional staff member of the MUP, I followed that line.  I

20     successfully formed the special police in detachment form.  Later it was

21     turned into the special brigade, and because the unit waged war

22     honourably to the extent that it was involved in combat operations and

23     because I saved many Serbian civilians because many times lines were

24     broken and it was a bad situation at the front and in essence we tried,

25     even though as a mobile unit, we tried to defensively protect our

Page 40586

 1     population.  And in any event, I'm sure that the decree by the president

 2     and the awarding of the rank of general is something that the president

 3     himself be better asked about.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I forgot that the police had adopted the rank system

 5     similar to the military.  That was the case.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Karisik, as you have noted, your evidence

 8     in chief in this case has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that

 9     is, through your written statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  And

10     now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the Office

11     of the Prosecutor.  Do you understand that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before he starts his cross-examination, in terms of

14     today's scheduling, we'll have a short break until 11.30, and we'll

15     resume again for an hour and we'll have another lunch break.  I was told

16     that Mr. Karisik wants the session not to last more than an hour.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  I apologise, Your Honour, we're breaking --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Now.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Now, thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And resuming at 11.30.

21                           --- Break taken at 11.17 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls, please proceed.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

Page 40587

 1        Q.   Now, you're a career professional policeman before your

 2     retirement; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   That's in your statement.  And you rose really to the very top

 5     ranks of the RS MUP by July 1995, correct, just under Tomo Kovac and the

 6     minister?

 7        A.   You could say that.  I was the commander of the special brigade,

 8     briefly I was chief of the police administration.  After that, from

 9     November 1994, I was the chief of the public security department or

10     assistant minister of the MUP, and towards the end of my police career I

11     was deputy minister of MUP.

12        Q.   Yeah.  And when was that, the end of your police career?  When

13     did you retire from the police?

14        A.   I retired in 1998.

15        Q.   Right.  And in your statement at paragraph 6 - you don't need to

16     read it - talking about the special unit before the war, you talk about

17     how it was comprised of outstanding professionals.  So you're an

18     outstanding professional too; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So what we have in front of us today is basically the finest of

21     the finest of law enforcement of the RS, one of the top; right?

22        A.   You could say that, yes.

23        Q.   Highly trained, promoted to general; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And Tomo Kovac, he's a professional too, isn't he, a good

Page 40588

 1     policeman?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And Dragomir Vasic, also a superb professional, a good cop?

 4        A.   I can confirm that, but he came to the MUP during the war.  He

 5     was not a policeman before the war --

 6        Q.   You answered the question --

 7        A.   -- as Kovac and I were.

 8        Q.   You actually answered the question in the first four words, so

 9     you can confirm that, so that you don't always need to go beyond my

10     questions.

11             And what about Mane Djuric, as far as you know him, good

12     policeman?  I'm talking about the Mane Djuric who was Vasic's deputy in

13     the Zvornik CJB in July 1995.

14        A.   Mane was the deputy and the best evaluation of him could be given

15     by Vasic, who was his immediate superior.

16        Q.   Perhaps, but I'm asking for your evaluation.  If you know, do you

17     consider him a good policeman?

18        A.   In principle, yes.

19        Q.   Right.  And we just heard from Mr. Karadzic in his summary that

20     your job and the job of the MUP was to establish law and order and

21     prevent serious crime.  That is the job of law enforcement; right?

22        A.   The question is not clear to me.

23        Q.   Okay.  Is the job of the MUP, what Mr. Karadzic read out in his

24     summary, to prevent serious crime?  Is that a tricky question?

25        A.   The MUP is obliged to prevent crime and that is part of its remit

Page 40589

 1     in the territory outside of combat actions.  Our territory was limited or

 2     the boundaries were the lines of separation which were held by soldiers

 3     of the Army of Republika Srpska.  That was no longer under the

 4     responsibility of the MUP; that was the responsibility of the army.  The

 5     Ministry of the Interior outside of the separation zone and the combat

 6     operations zone was obliged to carry out its constitutional and legal

 7     duty of securing law and order, preventing all forms of crime, and so on

 8     and so forth.  That is part of the responsibility of the

 9     Ministry of the Interior according to the constitution and the law,

10     securing the territory within our area of responsibility.  It is not the

11     responsibility of MUP to do that within the combat zone; that was the

12     responsibility of the army.

13        Q.   Right.  And we'll get to that and I see where you're going, but

14     we'll get to that and flesh that out.  When it's not possible to prevent

15     serious crime or any crime and crimes have occurred, it's the job of the

16     MUP to investigate the crimes; correct?

17        A.   My answer is the same here as well.  The Ministry of Internal

18     Affairs --

19        Q.   Let me stop you --

20        A.   -- once it finds out --

21        Q.   Okay.  Let me just stop you.  We don't need to go into the army's

22     job now or where the limitations of your jurisdiction are.  Is the job of

23     the MUP to investigate crimes which have occurred?

24        A.   I was going to say that.  The MUP cannot investigate crimes that

25     occur during military operations and which are under the jurisdiction of

Page 40590

 1     military courts and military prosecution offices.  That is something that

 2     the MUP cannot do.  The MUP can investigate crimes that happened outside

 3     of the territories where the army's operating.  Once they found out --

 4     find out about it either through the police or a citizen, that when --

 5     once they find out about it, they can initiate the regular investigative

 6     procedures.

 7        Q.   Right.  And so that is the job of you highly professional RS

 8     policemen, to investigate serious crimes and bring, when you can in your

 9     jurisdiction, the perpetrators to justice; right?

10        A.   You must repeat your question, please.  I don't understand the

11     question.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, if you don't understand that question, I'll

13     just move on.  Let me ask you about one part of your statement, this is

14     paragraph 40.  You're speaking about the 16th of July, 1995, and you say:

15             "That day no one informed me in any way that any crime had been

16     committed against the Muslims in Srebrenica."

17             Then we switch to the present tense.  So this is now, this is

18     when you signed this statement:

19             "I also have absolutely no knowledge of any plan to expel

20     civilians forcibly from Srebrenica and," again present tense, "I am not

21     aware that there was a plan to capture and liquidate members of the

22     28th Muslim Division."

23             So is your honest, truthful testimony that you - one of the

24     highest-ranking and successful law enforcement officers in the MUP who is

25     head of the RJB in July 1995 - in 2013 are not aware that there was a

Page 40591

 1     plan to capture and liquidate Muslim soldiers in July 1995?

 2        A.   Yes, I really don't know.  To this day from the aspect of the

 3     clerk's duties that I was carrying out or civil servants, I was not

 4     informed by the centre of the public security station either verbally or

 5     in writing in any way that any crime had occurred --

 6        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the function.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:

 9        Q.   I don't want to cut you off but you already answered the

10     question, as you sit here today you don't know of any plan.  Now, let's

11     break that sentence down a bit.

12             Forget the plan --

13        A.   Yes, I did not know.  Yes, I did not know.

14        Q.   Okay.  There was a corps of the VRS called the Drina Corps;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes, I have heard of the Drina Corps.

17        Q.   Yeah.  As you sit here today in 2013, when you signed this

18     statement, when you signed this statement, were you aware that after

19     14 July 1995 in Zvornik municipality the Drina Corps executed captured

20     Muslim prisoners?

21        A.   All of this that you are asking me is something that I heard from

22     the daily information media and TV news reports.  I have just found out

23     and I as a senior-ranking professional MUP officer to this very day am

24     not quite clear about things because there is a lot of manipulation

25     regarding the true extent, the numbers, and so on and so forth.  I did

Page 40592

 1     not take part in that military operation, as the operation in Srebrenica

 2     was called.  I was then a civil servant at the Ministry

 3     of Internal Affairs who had to carry out other assignments under the

 4     jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Interior --

 5        Q.   Okay, okay, I'm going to stop you now.  I understand you keep

 6     saying how you weren't involved in the army.  I understand and we'll keep

 7     going through that.  Now please answer the question.

 8             In 2013, when you signed this statement, were you aware that the

 9     Drina Corps in the Zvornik municipality executed Muslim prisoners?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that this was answered and

11     I have an intervention in the transcript.

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, that can be asked again.  Fair enough.

13             Can you answer the question, Mr. Karisik?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not find out.  To this

15     very day I don't know the actual truth of the true extent of the crime,

16     the true facts.  There is a lot of manipulation in the media about this,

17     so if anybody in the world were to ask me today about exactly what

18     happened, I would not be able to say so.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript.  The witness said,

20     "and about the true nature of that crime," and that was not recorded that

21     he said that he did not know about the extent, the number, and the nature

22     of the crime.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   Do we agree there was a crime, the Muslim prisoners were executed

25     by the Drina Corps in Zvornik after 14 July?  Forget the extent or

Page 40593

 1     numbers, precise numbers.  Do you agree that you as top MUP official know

 2     there was a crime?

 3        A.   I don't know who were the perpetrators of the crime, whether they

 4     were from the Drina Corps within the military operation.  Really, I

 5     cannot, because that's under the jurisdiction of the military justice

 6     system, the prosecutor's office in the military.  So to this very day, I

 7     did not have the opportunity to find out who the perpetrators of the

 8     crime were, whether they were from the Drina Corps or from which

 9     formations.  It's something that I cannot confirm.  After the war, from

10     the media, I found out that a crime took place.  I don't know who the

11     perpetrators were.  I did not conduct any investigation about it.  This

12     is something that was published later, after the war, after the combat

13     operations stopped.

14        Q.   Okay, Mr. Superb-law-enforcement-professional, lets just look at

15     that answer --

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, speaking of

17     "professional," that wasn't very professional and I think that

18     Mr. Nicholls should refrain from making those kind of characterisations.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, it's the witness's but I'll move on.  That's

20     the way Mr. Karadzic and the witness have described this man in the

21     statement, as a superb professional law enforcement officer, and that is

22     why I referred to him that way, and it is perhaps a bit sarcastic the way

23     I used it, but I'll move on, but I don't think it's a fair objection.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please move on.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:

Page 40594

 1        Q.   So you found out about the crime after the war from the media;

 2     that's your truthful testimony here today?  That's when you first found

 3     out about the crime, talking about, again, the execution of Muslim

 4     prisoners after the fall of Srebrenica?

 5        A.   I said that after the war ended I found out from the media that

 6     in the sector of Srebrenica a crime had occurred.  To this very day I

 7     don't know the reasons the perpetrators, the extent.  There are a lot of

 8     manipulations, and I stand by what I said.

 9        Q.   Yeah.  So during the war you did not know that this crime had

10     occurred?

11        A.   No.  I was not informed along the line of reporting from any of

12     my subordinates in my hierarchy that any crime had occurred during the

13     war.

14        Q.   Yeah, but regardless of who did or did not inform you, your

15     answer is:  No, you were not aware that this crime occurred during the

16     war?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   All right.  Then at paragraph 36 of your statement you talk about

21     being on the MUP staff in Pale.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P02981, please.

23        Q.   Sorry, before we get to that, your code in July 1995, your

24     call-sign, was Tango 3; right?

25        A.   I didn't understand the call-sign.

Page 40595

 1        Q.   Okay.  Were you referred to on radio communications as Tango 3?

 2     Tomo Kovac was Tango 2; the minister was Tango 1.

 3        A.   I cannot remember the code-name, my true call-sign during the war

 4     is Karlo.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we have P06188, please, e-court page 2.  We

 6     need to -- yeah.

 7        Q.   Okay.  In English we have head of RJB/public security department

 8     is Tango 3.  Does that help refresh your recollection?

 9        A.   A little bit, but I don't recall anybody ever referring to me as

10     "Tango 3" during any kind of communication.  It's possible that this is

11     some kind of call-sign directory of the ministry, but there is no

12     introduction or a conclusion so that you could tell what this is, what

13     kind of a paper this is --

14        Q.   Let me --

15        A.   -- because here I can see --

16        Q.   Let's go to page 1 just so you can see what the document is.

17     This is the Zvornik one, and just so you know Mane Djuric testified here

18     that it was accurate as to his call-sign and to Danilo Zoljic's and to

19     the Zvornik communication centre.  So I'm just trying to see if you

20     remember.  You said it helps you remember a little bit or something that

21     you were Tango 3.

22        A.   I really cannot remember my call-sign.  This is the first time

23     that I'm looking at the UKT, ultra-short wave, directory of the Zvornik

24     CJB.  I was never in any kind of action where somebody - how can I put

25     it? - would refer to me in communications as - how did you say

Page 40596

 1     it? - Tango 3.  It's possible that I as a MUP civil servant was included

 2     in it and that the signals administration did assign code-names, but I

 3     wasn't aware of that.  I'm surprised to see that I was Tango 3 because

 4     throughout for all the functions I was referred to as Karlo.  I'm not --

 5        Q.   Okay --

 6        A.   -- saying that this document is not valid.  But I'm just saying,

 7     I mean, I don't really have any particular comment on this.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  I won't tender this document now, Your Honour,

10     because Tango 2 is coming --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not already admitted?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm not sure about that page.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add this page to the exhibit.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Now, in paragraph 36 you talk about how you spent most of the

16     time in July 1995 at the RJB headquarters in Bijeljina, and you remember

17     the MUP staff in Pale.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P02981, please.

19        Q.   This document is dated -- it's unclear but June 1995 and it's

20     type-signed by Deputy Minister Tomo Kovac.  You see your name there as

21     number 2 on the staff?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  So this is the staff you're talking about, right, in your

24     statement?

25        A.   Yes, I was a member of the staff, I'm here under number 2.

Page 40597

 1        Q.   Okay.  I want to move on now, thank you, and talk about some of

 2     what the MUP knew at the beginning of the Srebrenica operation --

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I could have P04927, please.

 4        Q.   Now, your copy's not to clear, unfortunately, but this is dated

 5     6th July 1995, it's the RDB, so not your section, it's state security.

 6     And it's written in handwriting on the top right that it's for the VRS

 7     Army of Republika Srpska security department as well as going up to

 8     Bijeljina.  And we see here in the top paragraph that there is a

 9     discussion of information learned on 6th July that Srebrenica

10     representatives asked for a way to send Naser Oric in Tuzla back to

11     Srebrenica.  And at the bottom paragraph is what I'd like you to look at:

12             "We will continue to monitor further developments of situation in

13     Srebrenica battle-field through our sources and inform you about further

14     developments in due time.  We verbally informed the representatives of

15     the VRS OB about the said information."

16             Then it gives the source, Merkur, and personal observations of

17     the operative.  Information is classified as reliable, and this is from

18     Goran Radovic.

19             So again, not your subordinates, but you agree with me the RDB

20     was monitoring the situation in Srebrenica on July 6th, 1995, the day of

21     the attack?

22        A.   I can say that this is a dispatch from the RDB.  It's of a report

23     nature and it's sent -- I cannot see all the places it is addressed to.

24     I'm not sure, I couldn't see that.  I don't see it --

25        Q.   No, I --

Page 40598

 1        A.   -- on my copy, it's difficult.

 2        Q.   I understand completely.  I'll try to get a better version in the

 3     original.  It says in the English that it goes to RDB centre Bijeljina.

 4     So you agree with me RDB is monitoring events in Srebrenica on 6 July?

 5        A.   I can agree that they had information through this insider in

 6     terms of what was going on, but I cannot comment upon their dispatch in

 7     terms of what they were following and to what extent because this is the

 8     head of the RDB.  I see that he has this information that things are

 9     happening there, but I'm not sure that he knows what will happen in the

10     end.  This is --

11        Q.   Okay --

12        A.   -- one of those pieces of information whereby they provide

13     information to the RDB centre in Bijeljina.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection --

15             JUDGE KWON:  No, just a second.

16             It was sent by RDB Bijeljina, and according to the English

17     version it was addressed to RS MUP, RDB Pale, 2nd and 3rd Administration.

18             Can you tell us what it is about, 2nd and 3rd Administration of

19     what?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this is their

21     organisation, which I wouldn't want to comment upon.  It doesn't have to

22     do with the public security section and I don't want to allow myself to

23     comment upon things that I'm not familiar with and don't know.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

25             Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 40599

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  And I apologise for reading it out

 2     wrong.

 3             Could I have P04928.

 4        Q.   All right.  This is a much better copy.  It states 6th of June on

 5     the top, but that's a typo because we can see right on the first sentence

 6     of the first paragraph that it's talking about early morning of the

 7     6th July 1995.  And this is sent from state security to Republika Srpska

 8     deputy minister of the interior personally and RS MUP RJB public security

 9     department personally.  And the first couple lines state:

10             "Early in the morning of 6 July 1995 representatives of the

11     political and military leadership of Srebrenica established radio-contact

12     with the leadership in Sarajevo.  The Srebrenica representatives wanted

13     some way to be found for Naser Oric to return to their area urgently (he

14     is in Tuzla) ..."

15             So the information we saw in the RDB document from 6 July that we

16     just looked at from Goran Radovic up to Bijeljina --

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  And let's go to the next page, sorry -- or we

18     can -- sorry, we can continue.

19        Q.   -- is now being sent on to you personally; correct?  RS MUP RJB

20     public security department personally, that's you?

21        A.   Yes, that is I.

22        Q.   And the information -- okay.  Let's go to one more document

23     P02985.  Here we have 9 July a report from Vasic at the Zvornik CJB to

24     the MUP in Bijeljina, talking about the situation on 9 July and saying

25     where the units are advancing from towards Srebrenica, from Jadar towards

Page 40600

 1     Crni Guber, the villages of Salapovici and Ljubisavci have been occupied.

 2     And before I ask you the question I would like to now go to P05230.

 3     That's also a document.  This one is from 10 July, the next day.  This

 4     one is from deputy minister Tomo Kovac who's listed here as commander of

 5     the staff.  And if you look at the third paragraph it also talks about

 6     capturing the villages of Salapovici and Ljubisavci and this document is

 7     at the Pale forces command staff.  So again, just an example of how

 8     information in the field is conveyed to the Pale staff; correct?

 9        A.   According to dispatches -- actually, I'd like to read the

10     previous one.  It was a very poor copy, what I saw, so could it please be

11     enlarged.  Could I read one by one.  You have shown me three dispatches,

12     so let me read them at least.

13        Q.   These two are separate.  If you want to look at them again we can

14     look at P02985, the one from Vasic.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Maybe we can put both B/C/S versions on the screen

16     for the witness.

17        Q.   Take your time and read them, but my point very simply is this --

18        A.   I cannot read Vasic's.  Could Vasic's be enlarged.

19             I've read Vasic's.  Let me see the other one.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   I've read it, yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  Very simply:  Some of the information from Vasic's report,

23     his dispatch, is being conveyed up to the Pale command staff; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  One more document, 65 ter 24707.  This is dated

Page 40601

 1     6th July, headed RS Ministry of the Interior police headquarters Pale,

 2     type-signed Tomo Kovac.  And in the first paragraph not -- talking about

 3     the Herzegovina Corps it says between 50 and 100 enemy soldiers were

 4     killed and 23 captured on 5 July.  And on page 2 of the English, please,

 5     if we could look at the bottom part:

 6             "In the early morning hours of 6 July 1995, the offensive against

 7     Srebrenica began, and we shall provide you with timely information on all

 8     interesting developments in that theatre of operations.

 9             "Staff commander.

10             "Tomo Kovac."

11             Okay.  Are you ready for a question?

12        A.   I can provide a comment now.

13        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me ask you the question first.  Now, this

14     document talks about 50 to 100 enemy soldiers killed and 23 captured in a

15     different location and says that all interesting developments in the

16     theatre of the Srebrenica offensive will also be reported.  Now,

17     following the interesting developments in the theatre of operations of

18     the Srebrenica operation, would the Pale forces command staff have found

19     the execution of prisoners, even the taking of a large number of

20     prisoners, an interesting development to follow?

21        A.   I think, if I understood these dispatches correctly, police

22     forces of Pale, the headquarters of the police forces in Pale, is the

23     headquarters of the forces for the declared state of war in the zone of

24     Sarajevo, not Srebrenica.  That can be seen in the first dispatch that

25     was established in June, I don't know the exact date, 1995.  The

Page 40602

 1     headquarters were established because a strong Muslim offensive was

 2     launched against Serb positions around Sarajevo.  A particularly key

 3     point is here between the Herzegovina Corps, let's say Trnovo and

 4     Treskavica, and in that area, in Trnovo, there were some units of police

 5     units that were resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska.  And

 6     there was even a headquarters of the police forces in Trnovo there.  This

 7     is reporting on losses, enemy losses, and an inaccurate figure is

 8     referred to or estimate, between 50 and 100, and that shows us that this

 9     has nothing to do with Srebrenica.  And somewhere towards the bottom,

10     Vasic -- I mean, it says that Vasic is reporting that some military

11     operation is underway there and that certain positions had been reached.

12     There is no reference to any kind of prisoner taking and other things

13     that you're asking me about.  My role at the headquarters in Pale, I can

14     explain that --

15        Q.   Let me stop you right there.  I'm not saying that that first page

16     had anything to do with Srebrenica prisoners.  Okay.  The question is:

17     Staff commander Tomo Kovac says at the end:

18             "In the early morning hours of 6 July ... the offensive against

19     Srebrenica began, and we shall provide you with timely information on all

20     interesting developments in that theatre of operations."

21             And the question was, I'll make it simpler:  Would be the taking

22     of a large number of Muslim prisoners an interesting development?

23        A.   We do not know here at all, on the basis of these dispatches,

24     that there would be any prisoner taking in that military operation --

25        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

Page 40603

 1        A.   -- that is conducted by General Mladic --

 2        Q.   Stop, stop, stop --

 3        A.   From the dispatches --

 4        Q.   That's not the question.  Okay, I'll try to make it very simple.

 5     This is 6 July, all right, so there are no prisoners taken yet.  We saw

 6     on the first page in a different area a report of enemy soldiers being

 7     captured.  The question is, it's very simple:  Since Tomo Kovac is saying

 8     he will provide information on all interesting developments in the

 9     Srebrenica theatre, would the taking in the future of large numbers of

10     prisoners be an interesting development to report?

11        A.   Yes, but we did not receive that report as far as I can

12     remember --

13        Q.   Okay --

14        A.   -- that is why -- I mean, these are questions for Mr. Kovac as

15     head of staff.

16        Q.   Yeah, and if a report was made of large numbers of prisoners

17     being taken was reported, would it also be an interesting development

18     that large numbers of prisoners were executed by the VRS or the MUP in

19     the Srebrenica theatre of operations?

20        A.   You're putting a hypothetical question to me which was not in the

21     report.  I as head of the department and a member of the staff in Pale, I

22     did not receive any information about prisoner taking in Srebrenica,

23     about the numbers, and I was not aware of any plan, believe me --

24        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

25        A.   -- so I cannot give any comments of prisoner taking in an

Page 40604

 1     operation that is conducted by the Army of Republika Srpska.  The MUP of

 2     Republika Srpska is there with a minimal number of participants and has

 3     no powers over that act.

 4        Q.   Are you testifying that you never received information that

 5     prisoner had been taken in the Srebrenica operation?

 6        A.   I'm not sure now whether there is some dispatch.  It really has

 7     been a long time that says that prisoners had been taken.  In particular,

 8     I do not have a report and no one ever reported to me about any

 9     executions in certain locations.  I do not have a single report like that

10     as head of the RJB.

11        Q.   Yeah, again, that wasn't the question.  The question was:  You

12     say you don't remember.  Are you telling us that you don't remember

13     whether you knew in July 1995, as head of the RJB, that the Serb forces

14     had taken -- VRS and MUP had taken -- and/or MUP had taken large numbers

15     of prisoners?  Any prisoners?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Don't [overlapping speakers] --

18        A.   Categorically, I had never been reported to about that.  I cannot

19     confirm that.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document,

21     please.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D6421, Your Honours.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Now, could I have P02992?

Page 40605

 1        Q.   I take it you've seen this document before, you know about this

 2     document?

 3        A.   Yes, but not a lot earlier.

 4        Q.   What does that mean?

 5        A.   That means that I do not remember this document, although I was

 6     at headquarters.  And as I gave a statement to the investigators of the

 7     MUP of Serbia when they first showed me this dispatch, my comment was

 8     that I cannot recall this order because I worked at Pale in relation to

 9     affairs that have to do with Sarajevo, not Srebrenica, because it was a

10     staff that was dealing with Sarajevo.

11        Q.   Okay.  When was the first time you saw this document?  Are you

12     saying the first time you saw it, if I understand you, maybe I don't, is

13     when the -- it was shown to you by the MUP of Serbia?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, this is a document to the commander of the

16     special police, you used to be a commander of, you weren't at the time,

17     showing the supreme commander, Mr. Karadzic, has ordered -- issued an

18     order for the engagement of the MUP.  And I don't want to go through it

19     all.  At paragraph 2 it talks about the 1st Company of the PJP of Zvornik

20     being engaged.  In paragraph 3 it talks about Ljubisa Borovcanin being

21     engaged to take part in combat in Srebrenica.  So you never discussed or

22     knew about this order on 10 July 1995; is that your testimony?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you about this:  It's type-signed by

25     Tomo Kovac, and in an interview with -- in an interview in 2010 he

Page 40606

 1     confirmed that he neither signed nor approved this order, that's

 2     65 ter 25299, e-court page 2 for my friends.  And in his testimony in

 3     Serbia in the Medic case, Tomo Kovac testified at page 52 about this

 4     order:

 5             "I left this area, but the president of the republic directly

 6     called Karisik, my deputy, and Borovcanin and dictated to them this

 7     order."

 8             Now, does that help refresh your recollection?  Tomo Kovac - and

 9     he's coming - basically says it was you who worked on this order with the

10     president.

11        A.   No, no.  I refute Tomo Kovac's statement.  I think he got things

12     confused there.  It's possible that the president orders someone on the

13     staff because actually my signature is not there either, I did not sign

14     this dispatch.  There were many dispatches, you know, that's why I do not

15     remember them, because this is one of the routine things as these things

16     are written in the staff.  A duty officer must have drafted a statement,

17     or it's not a statement, but unskillfully.  I was dealing with Sarajevo.

18     I was not there.  I was dealing with Sarajevo.  As for the problems

19     concerning Srebrenica, it's only Mr. Kovac who can speak about that so

20     you can ask him when he comes.  I deny this.

21        Q.   Okay.  Engaging the special police, not even now talking about

22     anybody from Serbia, but engaging the special police to combat in

23     Srebrenica theatre of operations, that's a routine matter?

24        A.   I'm sure that I can tell you the following.  The staff in Pale

25     did its work and it was established for Sarajevo.  I don't know how come

Page 40607

 1     now there is this story about this staff that is 200 kilometres away,

 2     that now it is also doing work in relation to Srebrenica --

 3        Q.   Okay, but --

 4        A.   -- but Mr. Kovac headed the staff and I can give comments with

 5     regard to my part.

 6        Q.   Stop.  You said this is a routine thing.  Is engaging the special

 7     police on order of the supreme commander to take part in combat in

 8     Srebrenica combat a routine, just kind of nothing development?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can Mr. Nicholls tell us what did

10     the General say was a routine thing?  He said that something else was

11     routine.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Page 66, line 1 -- lines 1 and 2.

13             Can you answer the question?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand, which question?

15     Could it kindly be repeated.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:

17        Q.   I'm just going to move on.  You say in your statement that on

18     10 July 1995 you met with President Karadzic, it's in his diary, I won't

19     bring it up, for 20 minutes with Dragan Kijac, head of the DB.  And you

20     didn't discuss anything to do about Srebrenica when you met with the

21     supreme commander on the day that the Supreme Command engaged the MUP in

22     the Srebrenica operation; is that right?

23        A.   Probably the protocol of the president is correct and I don't

24     want to challenge that, but I cannot remember exactly - it's been a long

25     time - what we talked about.  But I assume that it only could have been

Page 40608

 1     my story about the Sarajevo theatre of operations and my duties to

 2     prevent a deblockade of our forces in that area and the fall of our

 3     positions.  Because 150.000 civilians of Serb ethnicity --

 4        Q.   Okay --

 5        A.   -- would be in peril.

 6        Q.   So if I understand what you just answered now, you don't remember

 7     what you discussed, you can't say you didn't discuss Srebrenica, but

 8     you're assuming you talked about Sarajevo?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right, because there's nothing else.  I know what my

10     task was on the staff --

11        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

12        A.   -- and that is Sarajevo.

13        Q.   Okay, you answered --

14        A.   The problem --

15        Q.   Now, just before the break, three days after this order engaging

16     Borovcanin as commander of these forces in Srebrenica, they murdered over

17     a thousand Muslim prisoners in Kravica.  You're aware of that, aren't

18     you, that that attack happened three days after this order was issued?

19        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that either.

20        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

21        A.   Because I dealt with the question of Sarajevo on the staff in

22     Pale that's what it was formed for.  No one informed me about that

23     incident.

24        Q.   Last question.  Until now, you --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, we'll take a break, but before we take

Page 40609

 1     a break let me ask the witness this one.

 2             Since you were dealing with Sarajevo front, taking a high-profile

 3     policeman like Borovcanin and sending him to the -- another front, is

 4     something important to you such that you should have been informed of it?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot -- I mean, that is the

 6     remit of Mr. Kovac.  He decides on who this commander is going to be.

 7     For us he was deputy commander of the special brigade and that is the

 8     only comment I can make.  We were not planning anything important as far

 9     as Srebrenica is concerned, particularly not I who was dealing with the

10     problem of Sarajevo and preventing a civilian exodus and planning

11     evacuation -- a plan of evacuation and everything else that we were

12     preparing --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so I really cannot comment on

15     why Borovcanin -- I mean, Borovcanin did not have any kind of special

16     task.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Did you know at the time that Mr. Borovcanin was

18     sent to Srebrenica?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at the time.  I learned of it

20     only later, that he was at the head of a small unit which was under the

21     command of the Drina Corps and it was dispatched there.

22             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, shall we take a break for

23     45 minutes, and resume at quarter past 1.00.  One further thing.

24             I asked around with the interpreters and the reporters, but given

25     the timing we are minded -- the Chamber is minded to go till 3.30 today,

Page 40610

 1     if it is convenient with the parties as well, in order to conclude this

 2     witness's evidence today.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  We appreciate that very much, Mr. President.

 4                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Before we continue, shall we move into private

 7     session briefly.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 40611

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             We are now in open session.  In light of the discussion we had,

 5     we'll have -- we'll continue to hear the examination till 2.20 and we'll

 6     adjourn for today.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   We were just talking about the 10 July order which, amongst other

 9     things, pulled Mr. Borovcanin and his units off the Trnovo front and it

10     also engaged, according to the order, the 1st Company the PJP, special

11     police unit, from Zvornik centre.  And you said you didn't know anything

12     about that at the time at all.  Did you go to Zvornik the following day,

13     11 July?

14        A.   I think not.  I cannot remember where I was on the 11th of July.

15        Q.   Well, do you remember going down to Zvornik during the Srebrenica

16     operation at all other than your trip on 16 July which we'll talk about

17     later?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So when did you go besides the 16th of July?

20        A.   I cannot remember going any other day, but as for the 16th, with

21     the help of others I remember, because that was also a long time ago,

22     that I went to the IKM, the forward command post, for the Zvornik Brigade

23     for negotiations --

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P06190, please, e-court page 1.

Page 40612

 1        Q.   While this is coming up, I'll tell you what this is, sir.  This

 2     is the diary of Mane Djuric who testified here and confirmed that it was

 3     his diary or notebook from the MUP.  This is an entry that he confirmed

 4     was for 11 July 1995.  We see at the top Goran S., then PJP special unit

 5     and then an arrow that says "can't."  Predrag Blagojevic, Presidency,

 6     et cetera.  Fuelling up.  And then if you look towards the bottom:

 7             "Map for MUP.

 8             "MUP dispatch ...," some other things.  And then it says:

 9             "Karisik - came by and expressed an interest."

10             Again, this is a day after the 10 July order, putting the Zvornik

11     PJP into the Srebrenica operation.  Mane Djuric testified in this case,

12     this is at T35037, line 19, about this entry:

13             "All right.  And below that we can see Karisik came by and

14     expressed an interest.  And just quickly in our interview you told us

15     that must have been Milenko Karisik; correct?"

16             And his answer was:

17             "Most likely, yes."

18             Does that help you refresh your memory that you went down to

19     Zvornik the day the PJP from Zvornik were engaged?

20        A.   I really cannot remember.  It was a long time ago.  I cannot.  I

21     mean, you know, it's been 20 years since then.  I cannot remember.

22        Q.   Do you have any special memory problems other than -- I don't

23     want to get too personal, but you don't remember whether you went down to

24     Zvornik on the day Srebrenica fell.  I'm just asking if you have any

25     particular memory problems for any other reason?

Page 40613

 1        A.   I don't know how much -- well, I don't have any proof from the

 2     doctors, if I may put it that way.  But really, it was a long time ago

 3     and you're asking me about one day where I was 20 years ago.  I'm not

 4     able to say because so much time has passed since then.  I cannot do it.

 5     I'm sure this would be the case with many other people if you asked them

 6     to the day exactly on a particular day where they were.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, just for your reference, this is the day Srebrenica

 8     fell or was liberated.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P4581, please.  And I don't know if

10     it will come up properly that way.  It's also 65 ter 35025, tactical

11     intercepts.  Page 1 of the English, page 9, I believe, of the Serbian

12     version.  And I'll just say before this document wasn't on my list.  I

13     told Mr. Robinson that I planned to use it based on some earlier

14     testimony and he agreed, so I thank him.

15        Q.   All right, sir, these are tactical intercepts, some of which have

16     been authenticated by Mr. Mane Djuric.  We can see that this is the

17     11th of July.  The part I'm interested in is at the top, where it says:

18             "They were collecting people who were left behind and it is

19     possible have them -- and if it is possible have them wear green

20     uniforms.  Bor asked Omega 21 to check how many men he can collect.

21     Karlo will take them."

22             So again, just to help you remember, we've established that Omega

23     21 is Danilo Zoljic, who is the Zvornik centre commander of the PJP

24     units.  This is a day after Mr. Karadzic has ordered that the PJP units

25     be engaged in Srebrenica.  It's the same day that Mane Djuric wrote in

Page 40614

 1     his diary "Karisik came down and expressed an interest in it."  And Bor

 2     is one of the code-names for commander Ljubisa Borovcanin.

 3             So the question is:  Seeing that, does that help you remember

 4     whether you in fact went to Zvornik on the 11th of July and took an

 5     interest of the preparation of the PJP getting ready for the Srebrenica

 6     campaign?

 7        A.   No.  I must give a comment.  May I?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   I am the head of a department.  I do not get involved in the work

10     of the centre chief.  In his duties in terms of his jurisdiction, his

11     duties to assemble forces pursuant to a dispatch, how he would organise

12     that, and so on and so forth.  Only if there are any problems in relation

13     to the HQ, specific ones, then I could get involved and make suggestions.

14     But in principle this was never requested nor ever needed.  That's why I

15     cannot give you any comments on these internal communications of theirs,

16     nor do I remember them.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, again the reason I brought this up now is we learned

18     this morning from you that your code-name or nickname on the call-signs

19     was Karlo.  This is an intercept, including Karlo coming down.  And

20     Mane Djuric at the time wrote "Karisik came by."

21        A.   I really cannot remember that.  I am Karlo.  I don't know if I

22     stopped by or not.  It's possible.  But why would the commander of the

23     PJP in the Zvornik headquarters be preparing any unit?  This is something

24     that I never did.  It's not my practice.  I'm the head of a department.

25     This is not the sort of job that I'm doing.  What it means was

Page 40615

 1     interested, I really do not know what does that mean.  It is not my duty

 2     to prepare the Zvornik PJP units to act pursuant to a dispatch.  No, I

 3     cannot confirm this.  I simply cannot remember this.  I never prepared

 4     this in any centre.

 5        Q.   Okay.  But again, you're not just a civil servant like you keep

 6     saying, are you?  You're head of public security; right?  And this is a

 7     public security centre.

 8        A.   I agree.  This is the centre activity in which I would never get

 9     involved.  As to how they would activate a unit, whom they would

10     assemble --

11        Q.   Okay --

12        A.   -- this is something that I never did.  This is something that

13     belongs to the lower command ranks.  It's part of the department, though.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now it's in your statement and I don't think there's any

15     dispute, the night of the 11th you met with Mr. Karadzic again late at

16     night, correct, 10.30 p.m.?

17        A.   Probably if it is written down, yes.

18        Q.   Right.  So it's -- in the diary that day, the day after the MUP

19     are engaged in the Srebrenica operation, the day Srebrenica falls, this

20     is around the time of the end of the second Hotel Fontana meeting, you

21     may or may not have been at Zvornik, you don't remember.  But your

22     testimony is you didn't discuss Srebrenica whatsoever with Mr. Karadzic

23     that night?  That's what it says in your statement.

24        A.   Yes.  I did not speak with the president about Srebrenica for

25     sure because I had no information.  I said that I was at the staff in

Page 40616

 1     Pale on the 11th, and I was conducting completely different activities

 2     related to the Sarajevo front.

 3        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Now let's look at a little bit of your

 4     testimony that you had no information about Srebrenica --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Nicholls.  The e-court says this

 6     intercept was not admitted.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I would tender it,

 8     although he has not said it's him --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We can mark it for identification, following our

10     practice.

11             But could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 40617

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark this entry for identification,

 2     following our practice.

 3             Shall we assign the number?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI P4581, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 7             Could I have P02996, please.

 8        Q.   This is a document dated 12 July, 1995.  It's from

 9     Dragomir Vasic.  It's to the MUP of RS, to the police force staff

10     Bijeljina, office of the Minister Pale and the public security

11     department, which is your department.  Now, I don't want to spend a lot

12     of time on this document, but it says that Mr. Vasic was at a meeting

13     that morning with General Mladic and General Krstic -- well, it doesn't

14     say that.  It says a meeting with General Mladic and Krstic was held at

15     the Bratunac Brigade.

16             Paragraph 2 says the -- paragraph 3 says the military operation

17     is continuing according to plan.

18             Paragraph 5 talks about a meeting will begin soon, at 10.00 at

19     which an agreement will be reached on the evacuation of the civilian

20     population from Potocari.

21             Paragraph 6 says the joint police forces are advancing on

22     Potocari with the aim of taking UNPROFOR personnel prisoner, surrounding

23     the entire civilian population, and clearing the terrain of enemy groups.

24             Paragraph 8 says you will be promptly informed of all further

25     facts and developments, and you head of the public security department

Page 40618

 1     are listed on this document.

 2             So do you stand by now your assertion that you didn't receive any

 3     information about Srebrenica so you couldn't discuss it with

 4     Mr. Karadzic?

 5        A.   Yes, I stand by my previous statement.  This is reporting to the

 6     public security sector, informing Mr. Vasic who is the head of the public

 7     security centre.  But you can see that the -- the minister of the

 8     interior would be the one authorised to take measures regarding the

 9     combat.  As the head of the department, I was more turned towards

10     civilian affairs and the regular tasks of the MUP and other activities

11     that fall under the remit of the ministry.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

13     sentence.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were engaged there as police,

15     small number of us --

16             MR. NICHOLLS:

17        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

18        A.   -- we were resubordinated to the army and this is where our

19     jurisdiction ended.

20        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you to keep your -- try to focus a little

21     bit more on my questions.  First of all, this is not information to

22     informing Mr. Vasic, as you said; this is information from Vasic, it's

23     going to the public security department.  You are head of the public

24     security department; correct?

25        A.   Yes, but not only to me.  This is a regular report to Vasic and

Page 40619

 1     the sector.

 2        Q.   Okay --

 3        A.   He is the head of the sector and he needs to report to the

 4     department and the minister.  I don't see anything of dispute there.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P02986, please.

 6        Q.   This is a document dated 12 July 1995, it's from head of RDB,

 7     Dragan Kijac.  It's to the deputy minister of the interior of the RS,

 8     that's Tomo Kovac, personally.  And it's to head of the RJB/RS MUP

 9     Bijeljina personally, which is you.  And it states in paragraph 1

10     referring to a report from UN military observers, that by 1700 hours

11     about 60.000 refugees left Srebrenica for the north and their overall

12     position will be hopeless in 48 hours.

13             All right.  This is going to you personally; correct?

14        A.   According to the dispatch, yes.  This is regular report.  The

15     department to the minister and to the department as the head of -- and

16     myself as the head of the department.

17        Q.   Right.  And contrary to what you said earlier, this is reporting

18     on Srebrenica; correct?  It's telling you that the situation for the

19     refugees is hopeless?

20        A.   I'm saying again my jurisdiction was not to take over military

21     operation conducted --

22        Q.   Stop, stop, stop, stop, please.

23        A.   -- by the VRS --

24        Q.   There was no part of my question that said whether you were or

25     not meant to take over an operation from the VRS.  My question was:  You

Page 40620

 1     received this information and you did receive this information and you

 2     knew this information; correct?

 3        A.   Probably, since there is this dispatch then it probably means

 4     that it did reach the department.

 5        Q.   Well, again - and I don't say this sarcastically - you're a

 6     highly ranked, highly decorated, highly promoted, in your own words,

 7     superb professional.  So presumably you read dispatches about a

 8     significant military operation that are directed to you personally;

 9     correct?

10        A.   As a professional, I'm saying that my public security department

11     in all procedures receives dispatches from those sent in the form of

12     regular reports which appear and infrequently from the state security

13     sector about things that they are reporting about.  So my comment is

14     nothing else other than that that dispatch was sent.  Probably it reached

15     the public security department, but my own personal jurisdiction was not

16     to act --

17        Q.   Okay, stop --

18        A.   -- and for me to make decisions --

19        Q.   Stop.  I'm only asking if you got it and read it, not what you

20     did afterwards or what your duty was.

21        A.   I'm sure that the dispatch arrived, but I'm not sure if I read it

22     or not since I had many other duties at that time as the head of the

23     department, not just to read that dispatch which, to be honest, I am now

24     here for the first time, and when you present it perhaps I can recollect

25     it a little bit because situations were infrequent, excuse me, when

Page 40621

 1     information and reports were received from the RDB, intelligence reports.

 2        Q.   Well, unfortunately I have very little time, or I could go

 3     through very many documents from the RDB to you which are in evidence in

 4     this case.  I'll go through a couple more, P04936.  This is the same day,

 5     12 July.  So if they're infrequent, it's interesting that you are getting

 6     lots of them during the Srebrenica operation.  And you can think about

 7     that and I'll ask you about it.

 8             Now, this document which again is to you personally as head of

 9     RJB from the head of the RDB, Dragan Kijac, states that the humanitarian

10     situation according to reports they know about are worse than ever in

11     Srebrenica.  There are 30.000 people in and around the DutchBat base.

12     There are about 8.000 people trying to reach UNPROFOR base and there is

13     not a single military -- a single armed soldier of the so-called BH army

14     among these people.  Now, I'm not asking about your duty, your

15     jurisdiction, or anything other than than, again, you are receiving

16     information about events in Srebrenica; correct?

17        A.   This information obviously, yes.

18        Q.   So it was not correct when you stated a little while ago that it

19     would have been impossible for you to discuss Srebrenica events with

20     Radovan Karadzic when you met with him because you were receiving

21     information about Srebrenica and you were the head of the RJB; correct?

22        A.   I did not speak about Srebrenica with President Karadzic, I'm

23     sure about that.  The only thing that we could have talked about was the

24     Sarajevo, since I was at the staff in Pale, it was the Sarajevo front

25     because I was personally entrusted with that --

Page 40622

 1        Q.   Okay, okay, okay --

 2        A.   This is something that arrived at the department in Bijeljina and

 3     at the time I was in Pale.

 4             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat what he said.

 6     He overlapped with the interpretation.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So if you permit me --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, you totally overlapped with the

10     interpretation.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said the witness is trying to say

12     where he was and where the telegrams were arriving, and Mr. Nicholls

13     keeps interrupting him.  He should be allowed to say what he's saying --

14             JUDGE KWON:  No --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot --

16             JUDGE KWON:  No --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- manage to do all of that in the

18     re-direct.

19             JUDGE KWON:  It's your problem, Mr. Karadzic.  The witness was

20     not answering the question posed -- put by the counsel of the

21     Prosecution.  I don't think -- I don't find any problematic conduct in

22     Mr. Nicholls' cross-examination.

23             Please continue.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             Now, P04389, please.

Page 40623

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, earlier today at page 64 I asked you:

 2             "Are you telling us that you don't remember whether you knew in

 3     July of 1995 as head of the RJB that the Serb forces had taken, VRS and

 4     MUP had taken -- and/or VRS or MUP had taken large numbers of prisoners,

 5     any prisoners?"

 6             "A.  No."

 7             Take a look at this document, please, this is the next day,

 8     13 July.  You said these are very rare, I want to know what you mean by

 9     "rare" that you got these types of informations from the DB.  13 July

10     1995 to RS deputy minister of the interior personally, that's Tomo Kovac;

11     and to you, head RS MUP Bijeljina, public security department,

12     personally:

13             "During the night of 12-13 July 1995, members of the VRS,

14     Army of Republika Srpska, and MUP managed to capture a large number of

15     Muslim soldiers (over 300) in ambushes set up in the general

16     Konjevic Polje area."

17             Below that in the same paragraph, sir:

18             "The operation to detect and neutralise Muslim groups is

19     continuing.  Earlier information regarding their intentions on the access

20     of movement towards Kladanj ..." I'll skip the locations "has been

21     confirmed many times in interviews with prisoners."

22             And then it talks about taking custody of one of the prisoners.

23     So you were incorrect when you said earlier this morning that you didn't

24     receive any information about the army and/or MUP taking prisoners during

25     the Srebrenica campaign; right?

Page 40624

 1        A.   First of all, I would like to say that at that time I was in Pale

 2     at the staff and turned to the Sarajevo problems.  These dispatches were

 3     arriving at the head of the -- at the seat of the department in

 4     Bijeljina, which is some 250 to 300 kilometres away.  And at that moment

 5     I could not read these dispatches because I was dealing with specific

 6     problems in the Sarajevo area as a member of the staff in Pale.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So your testimony is that the - I have to say it - superb

 8     professionals of the RS MUP in July 1995, this is not the beginning of

 9     the war, when the head of state security sends you personally a series of

10     documents about events in Srebrenica, you don't read them?  And the

11     reason you don't read them is because you're 200 kilometres away from

12     where they are sent to, that's your story?  These are sent by Telex.

13     These are sent through the air.  They can't be forwarded to you?  They

14     can't be couriered to you?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, how many questions is there that the witness

16     can answer?

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's basically one question.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Put it simply then.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Is is pretty simple.

20        Q.   There is no way these could have reached you, is that your

21     testimony?  That's why you didn't read them?

22        A.   One of the reasons why I didn't read them on time was the fact

23     that I was far away and technical possibilities -- I mean territorially I

24     was very far away at a different destination, Sarajevo, as I've already

25     mentioned, resolving the problems of the staff that was working on

Page 40625

 1     Sarajevo, as I've already explained.  And these reports, as far as I'm

 2     concerned, are of the nature of the documents that they sent to the

 3     minister and to me personally.  I'm not denying that these dispatches

 4     exist, but as you can see I cannot see in this dispatch anything about

 5     any kind of execution or a plan for that --

 6        Q.   Okay, now I'm going to stop you --

 7        A.   -- then or later I did not --

 8        Q.   Now I'm going to stop you.  The question was about taking

 9     prisoners.  You keep saying you didn't know about executions, when I'm

10     not asking you if you knew about executions.  So let me just go here now.

11     In the professional MUP chain, we can see this reporting, I've shown

12     Dragomir Vasic reporting on the same day it getting up the chain.  We see

13     state security carrying out interviews with prisoners, getting

14     information, and forwarding it to you.  Is -- was President Karadzic a

15     professional?  Was he conscientious?  Or was he just sort of somebody who

16     would say, "I'm in Pale, I don't know what the hell is going on, I don't

17     care"?

18        A.   As head of the department, I was not supposed to report to the

19     president about this.  This is the top of the ministry, I'm referring to

20     the then-minister.  If anybody was supposed to report to him about this

21     kind of knowledge, then it should have been that gentleman within his own

22     duties.

23        Q.   Tomo Kovac should have reported all this to the president when he

24     met with him on 13, 14, and 15 July?

25        A.   I don't know when he met with him and I cannot comment upon what

Page 40626

 1     the minister did, but you are asking me whether I had to report to

 2     President Karadzic.  No, it's the top of the MUP, the minister himself,

 3     who is a member of the Supreme Command.  He is supposed to report if he

 4     has some questions for President Karadzic, not I as head of the RJB.

 5        Q.   And the MUP wasn't a junta that had some huge conflict with

 6     President Karadzic and wouldn't meet with him.  I'll tell you and my

 7     friends won't contest it that it's in Mr. Karadzic's notebook that he

 8     met with Tomo Kovac on 13, 14, and 15 July.  So what you know as a career

 9     military police officer in the MUP directly subordinated to Tomo Kovac,

10     Tomo Kovac would have reported all the information he received to

11     President Karadzic; correct?

12        A.   The minister's purview and actually the procedure is that the

13     minister provides information collectively to the commander of the armed

14     forces since there was a state of war that had been declared and also

15     members of the government too.  This is regular procedure according to

16     the law, how information is supposed to be provided by the Ministry

17     of the Interior to the president.

18        Q.   All right.  Could I have P04943, please.  This is a 13 July

19     document, the same day of the document we were talking about showing that

20     prisoners were being taken by the MUP.  This is to the police forces

21     command staff Pale.  It talks at the top about information on 10.000

22     able-bodied Muslims from the Srebrenica area gathered in Susnjari.  And

23     at the bottom of the page it talks about Zulfo Tursunovic and his

24     movements and he's in the general sector of Snagovo, and it talks about

25     Ibrahim Mandzic and where he's moving.  So you at the police force's

Page 40627

 1     command staff in Pale would have gotten this information as well from

 2     this chief of administration, Todor Cikavic [phoen], correct, and try to

 3     keep your answer short, please, whether you got this or not.

 4        A.   At the staff in Pale I don't remember this dispatch at all and I

 5     cannot confirm, really.  On the one hand it was a long time ago and on

 6     the other hand I had my own duties in the staff that had to do with

 7     Sarajevo not in Srebrenica.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  P05099, please.

 9        Q.   And again, you said you barely ever got them.  Think about that

10     answer.  This is another RDB report that goes up somewhere to where you

11     were part of the staff.  Take a look at this one carefully, please,

12     13 July 1995, very urgent.  Bijeljina RJB at the top, that's you.  It's

13     type-signed by you.  It say:

14             "According to information available to the RDB, a Muslim group

15     led by Zulfo Tursunovic ...," et cetera, and it says "is currently in the

16     Snagovo sector."

17             This document is being sent by you to the Zvornik CJB chief,

18     Dragomir Vasic.  So you're not just not -- you're not just getting

19     information; you're acting on it and you're passing it on about

20     Srebrenica; correct?

21        A.   I remember this dispatch because at that moment I appeared in

22     that area because of negotiations.  And when the column got out to

23     exchange prisoner -- a policeman who had been taken prisoner and he was

24     from the PJP Doboj.  There was also the possibility that these forces

25     would enter the town of Zvornik.

Page 40628

 1        Q.   This is the 13th of July, sir.  You were in Zvornik on the

 2     13th of July?

 3        A.   No, no, no, no, no.  Mistake.  I was in Zvornik on the 16th.

 4     Well, you know what?  It's really been a long time, I really cannot link

 5     up all the dates, but this dispatch was sent to the chief, very urgent,

 6     because these are force that are coming and you can see that these are

 7     big forces coming in to big groups.  And I wanted to say that when I

 8     arrived I saw them leaving, they were on the move and there was this

 9     possibility of them jeopardising the town of Zvornik.  So that's why this

10     very urgent dispatch was sent to the chief of the centre, so that he

11     would be informed.

12        Q.   Okay.  So you have available to you and you act on information

13     about the movements of the Muslim column.  That's important information.

14     You also had information that the MUP was taking large numbers of

15     prisoners.  If you need me to go through all the evidence with you, I

16     will.  But there's evidence in this case that the MUP escorted thousands

17     of prisoners and provided security to thousands of prisoners being

18     transported from Bratunac to Zvornik on the 14th.  So you knew about that

19     as well, didn't you, the transport of prisoners to Zvornik?

20        A.   No, no, absolutely not.  I don't know when the MUP took prisoners

21     and how.  Again, I'm saying I'm not aware of these details that you are

22     putting to me now.

23        Q.   All right.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  P02987, please.

25        Q.   Do you know Ljubisa Borovcanin personally I suppose in some

Page 40629

 1     capacity?

 2        A.   Yes, I know him.

 3        Q.   All right.  This is his report from 13 July 1995, the same day as

 4     the other reports we've been looking at.  This goes to the Pale police

 5     staff.  It talks about the operation in Potocari which I won't go into.

 6     Page 2 of the English, please:

 7             "In the night between 12 and 13 July 1995, this armed Muslim

 8     group launched an attack in the direction of Konjevic Polje.  In the

 9     combat that lasted several hours and which continued through today, the

10     enemy had more than 200 dead, and we captured or had surrendered to us

11     around 1500 Muslim soldiers.  The number increases by the hour."

12             This goes to the Pale police staff where we saw the other

13     documents had gone to, some of which reached you.  So you did know that

14     on the 13th the MUP had taken 1500 prisoners approximately and was taking

15     more; right?

16        A.   That's not right.  This is a special police brigade, that's what

17     it says in the heading of the dispatch, and they are informing the police

18     staff in Pale.  You see that there, Vogosca, and special brigade Janja

19     and Ljubisa Borovcanin, the deputy commander, is under the direct

20     control, as far as combat activities are concerned, under the minister of

21     the interior and he is not reporting to Milenko Karisik as head of the

22     RJB.  He is informing the staff headed by Tomo Kovac, who is deciding on

23     behalf of the staff in Pale, that is to say that special brigade of the

24     police is directly linked to the minister of the interior, not to the

25     department, the RJB.

Page 40630

 1        Q.   I'm not talking about who he is linked to.  I'm saying you got

 2     this information.  We saw at the beginning you were number two of the

 3     persons listed on this staff.

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes, but I do not read all dispatches.  I'm out on the

 5     ground by Trnovo, the municipality of Sarajevo, and so on, so I did not

 6     see this dispatch.  It was probably sent to the staff, as noted here, but

 7     I did not see this dispatch and in this chaos in relation to Sarajevo I

 8     didn't have time to react.  This was the duty of the Chief of Staff,

 9     especially the special brigade.

10        Q.   Okay.  You keep saying what your duty is not.  I'm not asking you

11     what your duty is.  I'm asking you what you were informed of.  And again,

12     you're a top career professional law enforcement officer.  The Srebrenica

13     campaign is a hugely significant campaign, and your testimony is that you

14     didn't read urgent dispatches to you and other dispatches to you during

15     that operation?

16        A.   Yes, that is my testimony because at that time at that staff I

17     was working on the Sarajevo front, not Srebrenica, and the staff was

18     established for the Sarajevo front.  As for decisions, to use the police

19     forces, it is the minister who is supposed to decide.

20        Q.   Okay, okay.  So the special police commander knows they're taking

21     thousands of prisoners.  Dragomir Vasic knows that they're taking

22     prisoners.  Tomo Kovac knows that they're taking prisoners.  People above

23     you, below you know about these prisoners being taken.  Dragan Kijac in

24     state security at your level knows.  So you're the only senior law

25     enforcement officer in the MUP who doesn't know about prisoners being

Page 40631

 1     taken as far as you know; is that right?

 2        A.   That's right --

 3        Q.   Okay --

 4        A.   -- that's right, because I had a specific task at the staff in

 5     Pale and the minister's powers came to the fore as regards

 6     decision-making about using the police in combat.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let me tell you -- let me see some other -- tell you about

 8     the Muslims going to Zvornik.  Very briefly as you sit here today, before

 9     today did you know that Muslims were transported from Bratunac to Zvornik

10     on 14 July?  Or is that news to you today?

11        A.   I did not deal with Srebrenica.  Activities of the --

12        Q.   Stop, stop --

13        A.   -- ministry of the interior will --

14        Q.   Stop.  Answer my question.  Listen carefully to the question.

15     The question was:  Before today, before you sat here today, did you know

16     that Muslims were transported in large numbers from Bratunac to Zvornik

17     on 14 July?  The question is:  Did you know it?

18        A.   No, I cannot remember that.  To this day I don't know what

19     happened in Srebrenica, believe me.

20        Q.   I won't spend a lot of time on it, but witnesses in this trial,

21     Milorad Brcakovic [phoen], who was Drago Nikolic's driver in Zvornik, met

22     the convoy of buses on the 14th in Zvornik and he said there were

23     policemen on the buses, civilian policemen, wearing blue uniforms.

24     Another witness KDZ407 was present when prisoners were brought on the

25     14th to the Orahovac school in Zvornik.  He guarded them there and he

Page 40632

 1     said - this is at P00379 at 6446 and onwards - that there were policemen

 2     wearing blue uniform and that they assisted in bringing the prisoners

 3     into the school.  And he said that the policemen, the civilian policemen,

 4     who he recognised some of them from Zvornik, went back and forth with the

 5     buses.

 6             So these are civilian policemen, public security policemen,

 7     they're in your department.  They are going with the prisoners from

 8     Bratunac to Zvornik to the detention sites.  So you knew less than a

 9     uniformed policeman in Zvornik as head of the RJB; right?

10        A.   That is quite natural because I was not there and I wasn't

11     commanding that unit, that is to say these are questions for the head of

12     the centre whose unit of the PJP was engaged there.  As for details

13     regarding that operation in Srebrenica, if it can be called that, I am

14     hardly familiar with that because, I repeat once again, as head of the

15     RJB I also dealt with this peace time work, if you will, within

16     Republika Srpska and especially I was linked to the Sarajevo staff.  So

17     that part Mr. Kovac, I mean, and so on, they can explain that as

18     witnesses.

19        Q.   Okay.  Last question on this topic.  Dragomir Vasic, the Zvornik

20     centre chief, is in Bratunac on the 14th when the convoy leaves.

21     Mane Djuric on the 14th is in Zvornik when the convoy arrives.  So number

22     1 and number 2 of the Zvornik centre are at the beginning and the end of

23     the convoy.  None of that reaches you as head of the RJB from these

24     public security subordinates of yours?

25        A.   That's right --

Page 40633

 1        Q.   Okay --

 2        A.   -- no.  Report-wise, possible.

 3        Q.   When you're -- okay, well did you get reports?  I thought you

 4     just said you didn't know until now that Muslims were brought from

 5     Bratunac to Zvornik on the 14th.

 6        A.   No, I did not know that and I repeat once again that since I did

 7     not take part in that area in the capacity of chief of the RJB, I've

 8     already referred to the obligations that I had in that period of time as

 9     far as I can remember, and that was outside that area, except for when

10     the column was leaving when I appeared in the area, because I was there

11     for the exchange of the policemen and that is 100 kilometres away from

12     there.  As for the rest, the police, the reporting, and so on --

13        Q.   Okay --

14        A.   -- the minister, the person who was minister then could say more

15     about that.

16        Q.   Okay.  On the 16th of July, what time did you set out to Zvornik

17     on order of Mr. Kovac and your mission was to try to help, one, get --

18     get some MUP members who had been captured released?  What time did you

19     go to Zvornik on the 16th?

20        A.   I cannot remember the time because I could barely remember when

21     it was mentioned that it was that date, the 16th.  But I came, say, in

22     the morning, it could have been the morning but I really cannot remember

23     the time, and I stayed at the IKM for a long time --

24        Q.   Stop --

25        A.   -- because the procedure of negotiating was long and

Page 40634

 1     unsuccessful, if I can put it that way --

 2        Q.   Stop.  The question was when you went, okay, not how long you

 3     stayed or what you did.  So you don't remember.  Sometime in the morning,

 4     you think?

 5        A.   I did not understand your question.  Could you please repeat it

 6     for me --

 7        Q.   When --

 8        A.   -- when I came or when I left?

 9        Q.   When did you drive to Zvornik from Bijeljina on the

10     16th of July, 1995?

11        A.   I cannot remember the time exactly, really.

12        Q.   Okay.  When did you drive back?

13        A.   I think it was in the afternoon, but I cannot remember the exact

14     time either.

15        Q.   And even though you've got nothing to do with Srebrenica, you're

16     dealing with these humanitarian affairs in Sarajevo or something,

17     Tomo Kovac gives you this one specific assignment, right, to go down

18     there and try to get the MUP who've been captured by the Muslims

19     released?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   Okay.  Just before --

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, we have to 20 after, right, Your Honour?

23     P04981, please.

24        Q.   This is a document from the 15 July from RDB head Dragan Kijac.

25     Oh, it's the day before you went down.  I think my friends will stipulate

Page 40635

 1     it was the 16th that you were there.  And on the top it talks how on the

 2     14th of July the commander of the platoon from the Doboj SJB and another

 3     six members of the MUP and VRS were captured.  So that's what this is

 4     about, right, trying to get those men released?

 5        A.   I was told that one policeman had been taken prisoner --

 6        Q.   Okay --

 7        A.   -- a policeman from PJP Doboj and I went for him.  I cannot

 8     remember any others now.  I just remember this one policeman --

 9        Q.   Okay --

10        A.   -- that I waited for three or four hours, I think, but he did not

11     get out.

12        Q.   Okay.  This is to you personally; correct?

13        A.   Well, I didn't even manage to read this, believe me --

14        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

15        A.   -- give me time to read it.

16        Q.   Look at the top.  RJB public security department head personally,

17     that's you; right?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, that is I personally.  That's what's written

19     here.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, you can read it if you want.  Let's scroll down to

21     the bottom:

22             "On the morning of 15th of July, a group of about a hundred

23     captured Muslims from Srebrenica managed to escape from Gornja Pilica,

24     Zvornik municipality."

25             So you did receive information that there were prisoners in

Page 40636

 1     Zvornik, correct, the day before you went there?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P04941, please, e-court page 9.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  This will be the last question for today.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:

 6        Q.   Well, while it's coming up, you drove down there -- just to see

 7     the route you would take to the IKM.  Bijeljina, it's above Pilica, so

 8     you would have come down through Pilica, through Rocevic, through Kozluk,

 9     to Karakaj, turned right, and then head towards the IKM; right?

10        A.   Probably.  To this day I wouldn't find my way on that road, I

11     mean had somebody showed me the way to the IKM where Commander Pandurevic

12     was.  Even on the map I cannot show the exact route that I had taken, but

13     I was in that area in some hills up there.  I don't even know the exact

14     location.  I don't know what the name is.  So after all this time I'm not

15     sure which road it was, but I did arrive from Bijeljina.  I think they

16     told me -- actually, I even think there was somebody with me, I cannot

17     remember, and showed me which way I was supposed to go to the IKM.

18     Possibly it might have been Vasic, but I cannot remember exactly.  But I

19     was there at that time.  I've remembered the date now as well, although

20     it's been a very long time.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll get to that on Tuesday, because Vasic does

22     confirm that he was with you.  So we'll talk about that, but this route

23     you took, you drove through Pilica where there were mass executions.  You

24     drove -- it's not right on the road, past Branjevo, you drove past

25     Rocevic.  You drove past Kozluk where there were mass executions on the

Page 40637

 1     15th.  You would have gone by Orahovac where there were mass executions

 2     on the 14th and you did it all again in reverse.  So you basically went

 3     down this murder alley almost there and back on the 16th; correct?

 4        A.   That is not correct.  I don't know exactly where these places or

 5     execution sites were, and I did not see anyone there.  I didn't see any

 6     corpses because I was in a vehicle.  I didn't see any corpses.  As far as

 7     I can remember today, I went along a clear road.  I did not see anything

 8     on either side and I did not know of any of this that you are imputing to

 9     me right now, whatever you called it, murder alley.  What you are saying

10     to me now is not proper, that I went to all these execution sites and

11     then went for the exchange?  Absolutely not.  I did not see any corpses

12     along that road up to these hills, and you are referring to a route that

13     I cannot confirm.  To this day I would not be able to find my way if I

14     didn't have a guide.  Nobody took me to any execution sites.  I went

15     straight to the IKM of the Zvornik Brigade so that we could try to

16     negotiate with the other side to get the imprisoned policemen from PJP

17     Doboj released.  That's the only thing I can say and I do not accept as a

18     fact any of the rest.  I do not accept it as the truth.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll adjourn for today and continue Tuesday, next

20     week, at 9.00.

21             Mr. Karisik, I'd like to advise you not to discuss with anybody

22     else about your testimony while you are giving evidence.  Do you

23     understand that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

Page 40638

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

 3                           July, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.