Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42526

 1                           Wednesday, 30 October 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Yes, Mr. Harvey?

 7             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  May I introduce

 8     Ms. Samie Blasingame, who is from Long Beach University, California,

 9     California State University Long Beach, I should say, where she has a

10     bachelor's in international relations.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

12             Yes, Ms. Edgerton, please continue.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  And just one brief note to follow up

14     on something from yesterday, Your Honours, that Dr. Karadzic raised

15     regarding P4484, which is the recorded conversation between he and

16     General Zivanovic.  He asked at transcript page 42518 about the date, and

17     I undertook to update everyone as to the evidence of the conversation or

18     regarding the conversation in that regard.  And I'd like to refer

19     Dr. Karadzic to transcript pages 27485 to 27488, and in fact, at

20     transcript -- at transcript page 27727, Dr. Karadzic himself accepted the

21     date of the conversation as being the 8th of July and he must have forgot

22     about that.  So this is just to answer his query of yesterday.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Whose evidence was it about?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Mr. Butler.

25                           WITNESS:  JOHN ZAMETICA [Resumed]

Page 42527

 1                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

 2        Q.   Mr. Zivanovic, one quick thing from yesterday -- Zivanovic,

 3     pardon me, Zametica.  One quick thing from yesterday, the document we

 4     left off discussing, you had never seen that before I showed it to you

 5     yesterday; correct?

 6        A.   You will have to remind which document we are talking about.

 7        Q.   Well, if you don't remember the very last document we discussed

 8     yesterday, I'll simply move on because it was just a brief query, and

 9     deal with another topic.

10             You knew, Mr. Zametica, on 13 July 1995, that Bosnian Serb forces

11     in Srebrenica had prisoners; right?

12        A.   I'm not sure about the date, but yes, because the military action

13     was successful.  The Serb forces had entered the town.  It would be

14     reasonable to assume that there were some prisoners, yes.

15        Q.   All right.  You knew they had prisoners actually in Potocari;

16     right?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   You knew the prisoners were men?

19        A.   I didn't know whether they were in Potocari.  I mean Potocari

20     meant nothing to me at the time.  I didn't know the geography of the

21     area, I've never been there in my life.  Whether I knew that they were

22     men, I assumed they were men, yes.

23        Q.   You assumed that?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25        Q.   Because actually, what you said in a BBC radio interview on

Page 42528

 1     July 13, 1995, was exactly that.  You were told that the Bosnian Serbs

 2     were arresting all Muslim men in Srebrenica in a search for war criminals

 3     and you said -- and you didn't deny that.  You said, "We are separating

 4     the men from women, children and the elderly."

 5        A.   What did I not deny?  I'm sorry, I don't understand.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Could we have the reference for that, please?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, sure, we can have a look at it.

 8     65 ter number 25328, please.  And it's a transcript of a BBC 4 radio

 9     programme at 6.29 p.m. on the 13th of July, 1995.  And it was on the

10     subject of events at Srebrenica.  If we he can go over to page 3, please.

11        Q.   Mr. Zametica, the interviewer pointed out to you it's not the UN

12     who are separating men from their families, putting them on buses and

13     driving them from their homes.  And you said:  We are separating the men

14     from women and children -- Mr. Zametica, let me finish my question.  You

15     said:  We are separating the men from women, children and elderly, for a

16     very good reason, and it was to question some of those men.  And then if

17     you go further down the page, the interviewer said --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let him read it.  Let him read it and why don't you

19     ask a question after he finished his reading.

20             THE WITNESS:  I would like you to --

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Only because I'm conscious of my time,

22     Your Honour, but, yes, of course.

23             THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, I would like to read the whole page.  At

24     the moment I only see two paragraphs.  And if we can enlarge the whole

25     thing, please, so I can have a close look at the document.  Thank you.

Page 42529

 1     I've read the page.  Thank you.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Now, since you've read the page, I'll direct you to the last

 4     question from the interviewer, the last statement from the interviewer.

 5     The interviewer put to you that's why all the males aged 16 and upwards,

 6     including old men, are being taken from their families.  And if you go

 7     over to the top of the next page, you'll see you didn't deny it.

 8        A.   No, I'm sorry, where does -- where does the interviewer say age

 9     16?  Can we have that again?  That's what he says.

10        Q.   If I can finish my question.  If we go over to the top of the

11     next page, you didn't deny it.  Can we go back to the top the next page?

12     Your answer was:  We wish to carry out a thorough investigation.

13             So, Mr. Zametica, it's more than just a reasonable assumption

14     that you had prisoners, and it's more than just an assumption that you

15     had men.  You knew, on the 13th of July, 1995, that Bosnian Serb forces

16     had prisoners in Srebrenica; right?

17        A.   Absolutely not.  This is extraordinary.  If we go back to the

18     previous page, please, where the interviewer says, so that is why all the

19     males aged from 16 upwards, and he has another few sentences, and I then

20     reply or follow that up with whatever I say on the next page, it does not

21     follow at all, there is no logic in this.  Perhaps I just failed to

22     comment on -- maybe I didn't hear him properly.  This is not -- this

23     is -- he probably called me on the telephone, he called me from London.

24     Maybe I didn't hear the number 16.  But, I mean, to extrapolate from this

25     that, you know, I knew there were men aged from 16 upwards is, I think,

Page 42530

 1     you know, something that I would absolutely reject.  It just doesn't

 2     follow.

 3        Q.   You knew there were prisoners?

 4        A.   I knew there were prisoners but --

 5        Q.   You knew that the men --

 6        A.   I did not know the age of the prisoners.

 7        Q.   You knew that the men were being separated from the women and

 8     children --

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   -- right?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have this transcript as a Prosecution

14     exhibit, please, Your Honours?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will admit it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6475, Your Honours.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Now, knowing that there were prisoners who were being separated,

19     you knew that they should be registered; right?

20        A.   By "registered," you mean what, if I may ask?

21        Q.   Registered at their place of detention, registered by the ICRC.

22     You knew that; right?

23        A.   No, I didn't know the procedure of how you treat prisoners of

24     war.  I mean, I had never taken a prisoner of war myself.  I had no

25     direct experience of that.  I was a civilian.  So if you ask me:  Did you

Page 42531

 1     know, Mr. Zametica, about the exact procedure of the bureaucratic side of

 2     it, how you treat a war prisoner, my answer is no, I have no idea.

 3     I presume the army knew.

 4        Q.   You knew that there should be a massive exchange at some point;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Did I know there should be a massive exchange at some point?  You

 7     say "massive"?

 8        Q.   Mr. Zametica, do I need to repeat every question to you?  Was

 9     I unclear?

10        A.   Yes, you were unclear because you used the term "massive" which

11     implies that I knew the number of prisoners.  I had no idea about the

12     number of prisoners.  So to imply that you knew there should be a massive

13     exchange of prisoners, is simply unfair because I had no idea about the

14     number of prisoners.  I didn't know whether there was one, two or 2.000.

15     I had no idea.

16        Q.   All right.

17        A.   No one told me.

18        Q.   Mr. Zametica, it's clear from this interview that we just looked

19     at that you anticipated a release of prisoners eventually.  Now,

20     Mr. Zametica, you knew that there should be an exchange; right?

21        A.   Prisoner exchanges were common practice during the war, yes.

22        Q.   So where are the personal records of these prisoners,

23     Mr. Zametica?

24        A.   I have no idea.

25        Q.   Where, Mr. Zametica, are their records of detention?

Page 42532

 1        A.   I have absolutely no idea.  That was not my job to deal with

 2     records or follow-up this sort of thing.

 3        Q.   Where, then -- do you know where their records of interrogation

 4     are?

 5        A.   This is absolutely beyond my sphere of responsibility or

 6     activity.  Absolutely no idea.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could please have this interview that we

 8     just looked at, 65 ter number 25328, back up on the screen, please?  If

 9     we could go back over now to page 5.

10        Q.   Mr. Zametica, here in this further transcript, you talked about

11     the investigations that these prisoners were going to be undergoing.  You

12     talked about those investigations being a rapid exercise.  You told the

13     world that these people were going to be processed and released in a

14     matter of weeks.  And you now say you have no idea how that was supposed

15     to come about; right?

16        A.   No, no, no.  I mean, just because one doesn't know the

17     bureaucratic side of it doesn't mean to say that you have no idea, at

18     least the implication you just made.  And what is it that should have

19     made me think there wouldn't be an exchange of prisoners?  This was

20     common practice.  It was in our interests, as well as the interests of

21     the Muslim side, to exchange prisoners.  We were doing it all the time.

22     I was fully expecting a prisoner exchange, yes.

23        Q.   All right, then.  So where are they?  Where are the prisoners?

24     Where was the exchange?

25        A.   We talked about this yesterday.  I said there was a massacre.

Page 42533

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Zametica, just to stay with the events at

 2     Potocari for a moment, and the separations you talked about in this

 3     interview.  You know, Svetozar Kosoric, who was the chief intelligence

 4     officer at the Drina Corps came to testify as a Defence witness for

 5     Dr. Karadzic and --

 6        A.   Sorry, what was his surname, please, again.

 7        Q.   Kosoric.

 8        A.   Kosoric.

 9        Q.   And he was in Potocari on the 12th of July and he stayed in

10     Bratunac that night, and when he came to testify he said he knew nothing

11     about the separations.  And that's at transcript page 38698 and further

12     38705 to 38707.  And Zvonko Bajagic, who was in the Drina Corps's

13     logistics unit - whose witness statement, Your Honours, is at 1D09611 -

14     also came to give evidence for Dr. Karadzic's Defence and he went through

15     Potocari on the 13th of July, en route to Srebrenica, and he saw buses at

16     Potocari being loaded with Muslims.  And he says, in this statement that

17     I just cited to, that he didn't see any men getting separated from the

18     women and children.  So as regards the separations, it looks like you, at

19     Pale, are better informed than the military on the ground; right?

20        A.   No.  When we are talking about the separation, and when Bajagic

21     says he didn't see anything, we don't know which day he's talking about,

22     what hour, which location.  This other person you mentioned earlier on,

23     Kosoric, again, I think same applies.  Are you saying that children and

24     women were not separated from the men?

25        Q.   Mr. Zametica, you keep asking me questions, but this isn't a

Page 42534

 1     conversation.  So if you could stop that, you'll be done here much sooner

 2     this morning.

 3             Now, moving on in time, on the 15th of July, 1995, you knew,

 4     Mr. Zametica, that you had even more prisoners in Srebrenica; right?

 5        A.   I'm waiting for your follow-up question.

 6        Q.   Mr. Zametica, this is a "yes" or "no" question.  By 15 July 1995,

 7     you knew you had even more prisoners; right?

 8        A.   No, this is --

 9        Q.   Yes or no?

10        A.   This is not a "yes" or "no" question.  This is a question of

11     20 years ago or almost 20 years ago.  That is why I said I'm waiting for

12     your follow-up question because I don't know what you're saying.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand your answer, Mr. Zametica.  Until

14     just now, we talked about 13th of July.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And she said -- Ms. Edgerton moved to -- moved on to

17     15th and then asked whether you knew that there were more prisoners.  The

18     answer can be either "yes" or "no," or you didn't know, you don't

19     remember.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour, for this clarification.  In

21     that case, my answer is:  I don't remember.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   So you didn't know that the VRS Main Staff had reported to the

24     president on the 15th of July, 1995, that the main body of the

25     Drina Corps was engaged in defence, whereas the Milici and

Page 42535

 1     Bratunac Brigades as well as the Skelani Independent Battalion are

 2     securing the terrain and receiving a large number of fighters who were

 3     surrendering to them?  You didn't know that, did you?

 4        A.   I cannot remember.  I really cannot remember.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  The reference to that, by the way, is P4457.

 6        Q.   Now, yesterday, Mr. Zametica, Dr. Karadzic showed you D3931,

 7     which was your press statement dated 17 July 1995.  And it was -- or one

 8     of your press statements.  It was carried by AFP, and in that, you said:

 9             "Allegations of torture, murder, rape and deportation of Muslim

10     civilians are made repeatedly without independent verification.  The

11     truth is that none of these things have happened."

12             And you told the Court you thought everything was being done in

13     accordance with all the conventions.  And that was at temporary

14     transcript page 57.  And that was because you said Koljevic told you

15     Mladic had said he let the Red Cross into Srebrenica and because of the

16     agreement.  This all formed a picture in your mind.  Do you remember

17     that?

18        A.   I do.

19        Q.   Right.  So that was enough, then, the evidence that Koljevic told

20     Mladic he'd let the Red Cross into Srebrenica, and the agreement, that

21     was enough for you to credibly -- pardon me, enough for you to credibly

22     deny the allegations of torture, murder, rape, and deportation?

23        A.   No.  I'm not saying that was enough.  But almost 20 years after

24     the event, those are the two factors that I do remember or had access to

25     in documents to see.  There may have been, and there probably were, other

Page 42536

 1     factors, other information, which would have strengthened me in my belief

 2     that everything had gone in accordance with the conventions.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's talk about one of those two factors.  Let's

 4     talk about the agreement.  That agreement, Mr. Zametica, was pure

 5     propaganda.  Isn't that the case?

 6        A.   The definition of propaganda is lie or spreading of lies.  So are

 7     you saying that the agreement that was signed by the -- among other

 8     people, the Muslim civilian representative in Srebrenica, as well as the

 9     UN representative, that they were party to spreading lies?  Is that what

10     you're saying?  I'm not sure what you're saying.

11        Q.   Oh.  Mr. Zametica, I'm saying that that agreement was a fake that

12     was created by you and Dr. Karadzic and other people to avert blame for

13     the forcible transfer of civilians from Srebrenica.

14        A.   Not at all.

15        Q.   In fact, Mr. Zametica, what was true about the situation for

16     civilians in Potocari was that there were thousands there, they were

17     homeless, they had no accommodation, they were unable to move, and they

18     had no real choice about whether they were going to stay or go.  Isn't

19     that the case?

20        A.   One of the factors that I remember now which contributed to this

21     conviction on my part that everything had been going in accordance with

22     rules, regulations, conventions, I now remember that I also saw on our TV

23     footage from Srebrenica showing General Mladic in town and showing him in

24     front of a crowd of Muslim civilians, mostly elderly men and women and

25     children, and he was, if I remember correctly, speaking to some of them,

Page 42537

 1     and I think the footage also showed some of those civilians being --

 2     embarking on the buses, and going somewhere.  So I presumed everything

 3     was -- that the civilian population was being evacuated, and

 4     I subsequently found out -- I think it was they were being evacuated

 5     through, I believe, Tuzla.  So that is the memory I have of those days.

 6        Q.   My question to you, Mr. Zametica, was specifically related to the

 7     situation for civilians in Potocari on the 12th and 13th and

 8     14th of July, 1994, and the days that immediately followed.  There were

 9     thousands of people there, they were homeless, they had no accommodation,

10     they were unable to come and go, they had no food, they had no

11     infrastructure, and no means of survival.  Yes or no?  Isn't that the

12     case?

13        A.   That is precisely why they were being evacuated to the place --

14     I think they were -- I can't remember, but I seem to vaguely remember

15     that they were asked whether they wanted to stay or not, at least some of

16     those civilians were.  But my understanding is that those -- that a lot

17     of the Muslims, especially Muslim men, feared local revenge if they

18     stayed on in Srebrenica after Srebrenica was captured by the Bosnian Serb

19     forces, and the majority decided to leave because -- precisely because

20     they feared Serb revenge.  And they feared local Serb revenge because of

21     the events taking place in the period before the capture of Srebrenica by

22     the Bosnian Serb forces.

23        Q.   Well, Mr. Zametica --

24        A.   No, wait a minute.  I -- this is very important.  Srebrenica

25     was -- and the area around Srebrenica --

Page 42538

 1        Q.   Mr. Zametica, I'm not asking you about the period before the

 2     capture.  I'm asking you about the situation for civilians at the time.

 3     And your answer was quite lengthy, but I take it you agreed with my

 4     accounting of the conditions of life for those civilians.

 5        A.   Well, life for those civilians could not have been a bed of

 6     roses.  I certainly agree with that.  I'm not pretending that civilian

 7     population caught in the middle of a war, of a conflict, has it easy.

 8     That is precisely why the evacuation was being organised and, as far as I

 9     knew, was being carried -- had been carried out.

10        Q.   Right.  Now, just in regard to this agreement that I've put to

11     you was propaganda, I'd like to draw your attention to -- or bring you

12     back to somebody who Dr. Karadzic prompted you about yesterday, and

13     that's Mr. Deronjic.  Now -- and you recalled that you were aware of

14     Mr. Deronjic in response to Dr. Karadzic's prompt.

15             Now, Mr. Zametica, Mr. Deronjic gave a signed statement to the

16     Office of the Prosecutor saying that this agreement that we are talking

17     about was his idea because the killings at Srebrenica had already been

18     reported and Dr. Karadzic approved having the document made.  And you,

19     yesterday, said you hadn't personally met him.  And even though you may

20     not have personally met him, he also said that you even joined into the

21     discussion about that document because you could use it to show the world

22     that you did the evacuation properly.  That's actually how the document

23     was created, how that agreement was made.  Isn't that the case?

24        A.   I certainly do not remember anything of the kind.  Can I please

25     see the document in question that Mr. Deronjic signed?

Page 42539

 1        Q.   Sure.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 22299.  And we can go over to

 3     paragraph 224 which is at page 67, I think, in English, and 66 in B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And you see Mr. Deronjic's signature in front of you on the cover

 5     page of the B/C/S version of that statement.  And by the way, the

 6     reference to the evidence I've just referred to is also found at

 7     paragraphs 221, which we do not see displayed in front of us at this

 8     moment.

 9        A.   Can I just --

10        Q.   If we can go to paragraph 224, which is the third full paragraph

11     on the right-hand side of the screen, you see that Mr. Deronjic faxed the

12     document to Dr. Karadzic, and you spent a long time discussing it, and

13     you, Mr. Zametica, also joined the conversation.

14        A.   Just a technical point, Madam Prosecutor.  If you keep talking, I

15     cannot concentrate on reading.  So either you talk and I listen to you or

16     you let me concentrate on reading because I would like to read this

17     document.  But before I start reading it I would like to know the date of

18     this meeting with Mr. Deronjic.  Do we have that?  The date?

19        Q.   Mr. Zametica, as I told you, this is not a conversation.  Read

20     the paragraphs I've referred you to, please, and then I'll have a

21     question for you.

22        A.   I'm not in the least interested in conversing with you.  I'm

23     merely concerned to establish the date of this meeting.

24        Q.   Why is that, Mr. Zametica?  Because you've just said you didn't

25     remember it.

Page 42540

 1        A.   No, no.  Apparently there was a meeting.  I don't -- I certainly

 2     don't remember it.  But if there was a meeting, I would like to know its

 3     date.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think we are spending more time -- why don't we

 5     show him the previous paragraphs where he started talking about this

 6     topic?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.  It begins at paragraph 221.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we collapse the B/C/S for the moment?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I've read the page.  Can we please have

10     the following one?  I have read this.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   If you've read it, then, Mr. Zametica, you would also see at

13     paragraph 226 that Mr. Deronjic also says:

14             "I would like to say that Karadzic and Zametica and myself and

15     other people knew that there were killings and liquidations which is, of

16     course, not discussed in the document."

17             So, Mr. Zametica, not only is the agreement that we are talking

18     about a piece of international propaganda designed to manipulate

19     international reaction and avert blame for the forced transfer of

20     civilians from Srebrenica, you knew about the killings and liquidations;

21     correct?

22        A.   Absolutely incorrect.  This is what I have to say on this

23     particular subject.  I'm 99 per cent sure that I have not ever met

24     someone called Mr. Deronjic in my life.  Certainly not during the war,

25     maybe in passing sometime after the -- but I certainly do not remember a

Page 42541

 1     face, and I have a very good memory.  So, I'm almost certain that I've

 2     never in my life encountered or seen or even -- let alone talked to this

 3     man.

 4             Now, let's go to his statement.  You know, my first impression

 5     when I was reading this was -- the first impression was one of total

 6     incredulity and when I started thinking about the contents of this

 7     statement, in particular paragraph 226, where he says:  "I would like to

 8     say that Karadzic and Zametica and myself and other people knew," repeat

 9     knew, "that there were killings and liquidations which, of course, is not

10     discussed by this document," I can only say this man had some kind of

11     problem with The Hague Tribunal.  He was -- he had some kind of deal or

12     agreement with this Tribunal or the investigators, and he had agreed to

13     sign a fabrication, a lie.  So this I categorically say is a total

14     fabrication.

15        Q.   And, Mr. Zametica, in that same paragraph that you've just

16     referred to, Mr. Deronjic says, referring to the agreement, that the

17     agreement we have been discussing doesn't correspond with the truth or

18     reality of events in July 1995.  The conditions of the evacuation from

19     Potocari, the situation in Potocari, and the broader area were such that

20     they were not favourable for the population to remain there.  That's

21     correct, isn't it?

22        A.   No.  Why would then the UN representative sign the agreement?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have these two pages, Your Honours, as a

24     Prosecution exhibit, please?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  This is a way to --

Page 42542

 1     well, first of all, what Mr. Deronjic said is not evidence.

 2     Mr. Zametica's comments are the evidence.  And you've already rejected

 3     the admission of Mr. Deronjic's statements when they were -- Prosecution

 4     attempted to admit them under Rule 92 quater.  So I don't believe that

 5     they could do through the back door what you've already denied them doing

 6     through the front door.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  You would still object to the admitting of this

 8     document if the Chamber is minded to admit it only for the purpose of the

 9     context of this witness?  Because it was not read out to the witness.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I would.  I think what the -- the sections of

11     the document that the witness has commented on have been read out to him

12     and he's given his evidence.  I don't think there is any need for any

13     part of the statement to be admitted.  But if Ms. Edgerton thinks there

14     is something in the statement that she would like elicit his comment

15     from, she is free to do that.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Ms. Edgerton?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, I was simply tendering it and

18     limiting it to those pages that we discussed so that the Chamber and the

19     parties can fully understand Mr. Zametica's position on the evidence and

20     nothing more.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So not for the truth of the content of those

22     passages?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  For that purpose only, we will admit those two

Page 42543

 1     pages.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6476, Your Honours.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Just your indulgence for a moment while I find

 4     something in the transcript.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Zametica, you said, when I put to you what Mr. Deronjic said

 6     about the conditions of the evacuation in Potocari, your response was,

 7     then:  Why would the UN representative, then, sign the agreement?  Well,

 8     Mr. Deronjic, Lieutenant-Colonel Franken, the UN representative whose

 9     name is on that agreement, actually confirmed that the agreement was

10     executed under duress and that it's a fabrication.  He gave evidence, and

11     has given evidence repeatedly in front of Chambers of this Tribunal, that

12     this document and particularly the part of the agreement that says that

13     the population can remain in the enclave or evacuate is nonsense because

14     they didn't have a realistic opportunity to stay or to move in any

15     direction.  They didn't have a choice.  Staying in a small area with no

16     means to survive, controlled by the Serbs, being afraid and lethargic as

17     they were, that is not a choice.  It was ordered that they should go to

18     the Kladanj area.  That was a decision by the representatives but an

19     order -- pardon me, it was not a decision by the representatives but an

20     order of Mladic to go to the area of Kladanj.

21             And that's at P4175, paragraph 105.  He also said at

22     paragraph 106:

23             "I did not have any control about what happened."

24             So, Mr. Zametica, the UN individual who signed the agreement

25     actually corroborates what Mr. Deronjic has been saying, corroborates

Page 42544

 1     what I've been putting to you, that this agreement is a fake, and it was

 2     created to manipulate international reaction.  Isn't that the case?

 3        A.   No, it is not the case.  Having read Mr. -- parts of

 4     Mr. Deronjic's statement, I feel so revolted by it that I thought to

 5     myself I'm not going to make any further comments on it because the man

 6     is clearly not credible.  What he alleges here did not take place.  I did

 7     not say that I knew there were killings or liquidations.  This -- this is

 8     a -- this is a total and utter fabrication made under duress, I imagine.

 9     And so any of your questions associated with the statement by

10     Mr. Deronjic, I must treat with, well -- I wish -- I wish to say that

11     anything associated with Mr. Deronjic's statement, questions from you

12     connected with his statement, I will treat as very, very, very suspect

13     because the document itself is not suspect, I was going to say "suspect,"

14     it's a total lie.

15        Q.   I was asking you --

16        A.   And I'm revolted by it.

17        Q.   I was asking you about the evidence of Lieutenant-Colonel

18     Franken, the UN representative who signed the agreement.

19        A.   Well, I know nothing about the evidence given by this

20     Lieutenant-Colonel or whatever his rank was.  I would like to see it, but

21     presumably we don't have the time.  I'm aware of the time factor.  I have

22     no idea what he stated subsequent to the event.  All I know in general

23     terms is that the Dutch Battalion there in Srebrenica did not exactly

24     acquit itself in a glorious way in performing its UN duties.  Now,

25     perhaps this officer, who signed that statement, felt ashamed or wanted

Page 42545

 1     to -- wanted to repaint history or his own role, I have no idea.  I do

 2     not wish to speculate.  But anything associated with this particular

 3     statement by Mr. Deronjic is, I think, scandalous.

 4        Q.   Mr. Zametica, in 1995, you used and abused the fact that

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Franken's name was on that agreement.  You issued

 6     statements to the effect that UNPROFOR would back you up about the

 7     propriety of that evacuation, and I'll read you one of them.  It's from

 8     P6410, and it's a statement you made on the 17th of July, 1995, to

 9     Banja Luka Srpska Televizija.  You said that:

10             "Over the past few days, the international media, aided by the

11     Muslim authorities, have engaged in violent propaganda, unrealistically

12     reporting on events relating to the situation in Srebrenica.  The

13     accusations concerning alleged torture, killing, rape, and deportation of

14     Muslim civilians are being repeated without any independent verification.

15     The truth is that none of these accusations has a firm basis.  UNPROFOR

16     has been on the ground in Srebrenica the entire time and can confirm the

17     fact that the Muslim civilian population was treated well by the Serbs."

18             Mr. Zametica, that's not true, is it?

19        A.   Well, it was true, as far as I knew at the time, and I think

20     we've been through this already.  Now, I wish to comment on your

21     assertion which you made at the beginning of this little speech you've

22     just made, that I "used and abused the statement made by" -- I forget the

23     Dutch man's name.  I did not use and abuse the statement he signed.  He

24     did sign that statement.  You will not disagree with that.  But you would

25     argue that, and you have argued, that he signed it, as you put it, under

Page 42546

 1     duress.  Can you please tell me under what duress he was when he signed

 2     this statement?  Was a gun held at him?  Was a gun being pointed at him?

 3        Q.   Mr. Zametica, it's not for you to ask me questions here, with

 4     respect.  My question to you was with regard to your assertion that

 5     UNPROFOR can confirm the fact that the Muslim civilian population was

 6     treated well by the Serbs.

 7        A.   Correct, and it did confirm that.

 8        Q.   That's not true.  They were not.

 9        A.   No, but they did.  You just agreed with me that he signed the

10     statement.  I was not to know -- I mean, it is -- theoretically it's

11     possible that he signed it under duress, yes.  I admit theoretically that

12     is possible.  But how was I to know that?  If, indeed it had been signed

13     under duress?  Are you saying to me that over there in Pale, I was

14     supposed to know what was happening in some, I don't know, tent or house

15     in Srebrenica, in a meeting between the Serb forces, Muslim civilians

16     from Srebrenica, and the UN representative?  I had no idea.

17        Q.   So when you said that UNPROFOR can confirm the fact that the

18     Muslim civilian population was treated well by the Serbs, you had

19     actually no idea.  That's a lie, isn't it?

20        A.   No, no, no.  I admire your persistence but, I mean, we are not

21     getting very far here.  I think I've explained my position very clearly

22     and I think you understand it, but you keep pushing this, so, you know,

23     carry on.

24        Q.   All right, I will, Mr. Zametica.  Your job for Dr. Karadzic --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask the Prosecution to inform

Page 42547

 1     us when was the first time that Franken said that this was under duress?

 2     Was that immediately on his return?  When?  When was that?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's an improper intervention at the

 4     moment.  You can raise it in your re-examination.  Shall we continue?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   You've explained your job for Dr. Karadzic in detail and how one

 7     of the aspects of your work was foreign affairs and your job was to stay

 8     on top of the international media.  Fair?

 9        A.   Fair enough, yes.

10        Q.   So it would be normal in the context of your work, and probably

11     as a former resident of the UK, that you would follow the British press.

12     Fair?

13        A.   Yes, fair.

14        Q.   So on the 17th of July, 1995, you would have seen or been aware

15     that "The Independent" published an article on its front page entitled:

16     "Bodies pile up in horror in Srebrenica"?  Because that's your job.

17        A.   Not necessarily.  The -- in those days, we did not have the

18     internet.  Therefore, information, press, was not instantly available the

19     way it is today.  So I can't particularly remember that -- that article

20     you've just mentioned.

21        Q.   Well, that article was based on, Mr. Zametica, five or six hours

22     of footage that the author and a colleague watched at Studio B's offices

23     in Belgrade, and parts of this film were used in a documentary broadcast

24     by Studio B on the 15th of July, and, in fact, you've already referred to

25     having seen some of that film in your testimony just a few minutes ago.

Page 42548

 1     And the tape was from the area of Srebrenica on 13 and 14 July 1995,

 2     recorded by a Serbian journalist called Zoran Petrovic-Pirocanac.  And

 3     among other things, it showed piles of bodies against a wall riddled with

 4     bullet holes at what looked like a place of summary execution.  That's on

 5     the 17th of July.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  And the references for that are P4397 and P4392.

 7     Actually, we can have a look at the article.  P4397, please.  If you

 8     could make it a little bigger?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   Have a look at the article briefly and I'll have a question for

12     you, Mr. Zametica.

13        A.   Very good.  I have read it, yes.

14        Q.   So, Mr. Zametica, are these reports from Serb sources part of

15     what you described in another press release on the 17th of July, part of

16     what you described as an orgy of uncritical reporting aided by Muslim

17     authorities?

18        A.   Yes, this article actually confirms that.  And I shall explain.

19     First of all, to answer your initial question as to whether I had seen on

20     the 17th of July this article in "The Independent," no, I did not see it.

21     I have read it for the first time in my life right now, okay?  So that's

22     out of the way.

23        Q.   All right.  Mr. Zametica --

24        A.   Now --

25        Q.   Mr. Zametica, if this is the first time that now you say you've

Page 42549

 1     read this article, we are going to move on.  I don't want to spend any

 2     more time on it?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, he should be allowed to complete

 4     his answer.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just let me read Ms. Edgerton's question.  Yes,

 6     Mr. Zametica, please proceed to answer the question.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Now, the article, which I

 8     have just seen for the first time in my life, in fact, confirms what

 9     I said in that statement on July the 17th about unverified and

10     tendentious, I would say now, reporting by the Western media on the

11     events in Srebrenica.  You see, you -- you make a big deal out of the

12     fact that this is from Serb sources.  This is indeed a Serb source, which

13     is -- is it B92?  Which was a Studio B -- Studio B which was generally an

14     anti-Bosnian Serb station.  Its journalists -- its -- its policy was

15     anti-Bosnian -- but it doesn't matter.  Even Studio B despite its

16     political bias against the Bosnian Serbs suggested that these Muslims --

17     these Muslim soldiers were killed in combat, "killed in combat."

18             Now, this journalist called Robert Block, never heard of him

19     before, although I followed these journalists, he then says, the scene --

20     I quote:

21             "The scene, however, looked," repeat looked, "more like a place

22     of summary execution than a combat."

23             Now, he is giving his own personal impression about this

24     particular horrible scene, but he himself is not sure whether these were

25     indeed executions or these Muslim soldiers had been killed in the heat of

Page 42550

 1     battle.  So he himself says "looked."  What does it mean, "looked"?  What

 2     evidence is there in this article to suggest that, you know, these people

 3     had been executed?  He's simply saying, you know, putting forward his own

 4     subjective, probably bias, point of view and saying the place looked.

 5     Well, he can't use a stronger term because he's actually not sure and

 6     cannot prove it, but, you know, it's a good example of how you can twist

 7     words and how you can -- you can distort -- you can distort history.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But, Mr. Zametica, you can confirm now, can't you,

 9     that his speculation at the time --

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes --

11             JUDGE KWON:  -- was correct.

12             THE WITNESS:  Well, in -- in this particular case, Your Honour,

13     I'm not sure that it was or not.  You know, I cannot say either yes or

14     not because it looks as if this was -- it looks -- if they were prisoners

15     executed -- I don't know.  So, yes, I allow for the possibility that they

16     were executed, but, I mean, from this particular article, one cannot be

17     sure.  That's all I'm saying.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Thank you.  As Dr. Karadzic's advisor, his spokesperson, his

21     letter writer, a member of his immediate office, you would have been

22     aware of formal letters from authorities in the international community

23     that were directed to Dr. Karadzic; right?

24        A.   By and large, yes, if -- if he -- if he chose to show them to me.

25     But he would have showed them -- if they were important, he would have

Page 42551

 1     showed them to me, yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  So Dr. Karadzic then would have showed you the formal

 3     letter that the Special Rapporteur of the Commission for Human Rights,

 4     Mr. Mazowiecki wrote on the 24th of July, protesting the forced

 5     displacement of 40.000 people from Srebrenica and noting that several

 6     thousand additional had been unaccounted for and asking for access to

 7     those who were detained.  Because that's pretty important, isn't it?

 8        A.   Did I hear you say -- sorry, this is not a question.  I'm just

 9     trying to establish the date.  Did I hear you say 24th of July?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   Thank you.  On 24th of July, I was in Montenegro, so he would not

12     have shown me that letter because it would have been impossible for him

13     to do so.

14        Q.   So Dr. Karadzic would have shown you the letter from Mr. Akashi

15     on 12 August 1995, expressing his concern that many of the former

16     inhabitants of Srebrenica still weren't accounted for and noting the

17     reports of mass graves that had been identified by the American

18     government.  And that same letter, actually, on the 12th of August, asks

19     you to allow UNPROFOR to investigate the allegations.  It requests access

20     to UNPROFOR, members of UNHCR, ICRC, and other international agencies to

21     the persons who had been displaced from Srebrenica and actually at that

22     point from Zepa and were held in areas of -- under your control.  He

23     would have shown you that?

24        A.   Possibly.  I must say I cannot remember.  On the date that you

25     mentioned, I think you said 12th of August, there were quite a few things

Page 42552

 1     going on.  We just had an attempted coup d'état --

 2        Q.   I didn't ask you about a coup d'état, I asked you about a letter.

 3        A.   Well, in that case --

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I think that was said in the context

 6     why he couldn't remember that letter.  Let him continue, Ms. Edgerton,

 7     please.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Certainly.

 9        A.   The other important thing, apart from the coup d'état going on at

10     the time, was the very serious military situation in the western parts of

11     the country.  So my answer to you is that Dr. Karadzic may have shown me

12     this letter but I certainly cannot remember it.  Although let me add

13     this:  If I actually saw it and read it, I may -- you know, I may

14     remember it, I may remember that I read something similar a long time

15     ago, but at the moment I cannot remember it.

16        Q.   Mr. Zametica, you didn't conduct any investigation into the

17     whereabouts of the people that Mr. Akashi noted were unaccounted for.

18     You didn't conduct them at any time in July, you didn't conduct them at

19     any time in August, and you didn't conduct them any time thereafter;

20     right?

21        A.   I'm not aware - I repeat, I'm not aware - of that letter by

22     Mr. Yasushi Akashi and I cannot add more to that.

23        Q.   My question is:  You didn't conduct any investigation into the

24     whereabouts of these people that Mr. Akashi happened to note were

25     unaccounted for.  That's the same group of people that Mr. Mazowiecki

Page 42553

 1     noted were unaccounted for.  It's the same group of people that the

 2     international community was crying were unaccounted for.  You didn't

 3     conduct any investigation at any time in July, any time in August, any

 4     time thereafter.  You didn't conduct any investigation, did you?

 5        A.   Given the context of what was happening at the time, in the

 6     western parts of Republika Srpska, I -- I really think that was probably

 7     something that I was most -- I personally was mostly preoccupied with but

 8     also Dr. Karadzic and -- and I don't know what Dr. Karadzic did in terms

 9     of responding to that letter that you say Mr. Akashi had written to him,

10     so you better ask Mr. Karadzic about that, not me.

11        Q.   I asked you whether or not at any time you conducted an

12     investigation into the whereabouts of the people from Srebrenica who were

13     unaccounted for.  Yes or no?

14        A.   I cannot remember.

15        Q.   In fact, Mr. Zametica, what you continued to say, in July of

16     1995, on the 31st of July actually, was that there was no ethnic

17     cleansing, no atrocities, these are tales, these are lies.  You said

18     that, Mr. Zametica, to "USA Today" in reaction to the stories of

19     survivors from Srebrenica who had made their way to Bosnian-held

20     territory; right?

21        A.   I would like to see that article, please.

22        Q.   Absolutely.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 25323.

24        Q.   The statement that I've just quoted to you is the fifth sentence

25     from the bottom.

Page 42554

 1        A.   Yes, in fact, this is a -- yet another confirmation of what I

 2     have been saying throughout, that at the time we were absolutely unaware

 3     of any atrocities having taken place, and this is what I said on the

 4     17th of July, and this is what I also say on the 31st of July, yeah.

 5        Q.   When did you come back from Montenegro, Mr. Zametica?

 6        A.   Towards the end of July.

 7        Q.   Fine.  Mr. Zametica, this is untrue, isn't it?

 8        A.   What is untrue?

 9        Q.   That there were no -- your statement that there was no ethnic

10     cleansing, that there are no atrocities, that these are lies, is actually

11     a lie itself?

12        A.   I'm amazed that we are wasting so much time on this.  I have

13     already made my position, and I -- I've explained my position very

14     clearly.  At the time -- so let me repeat it.  At the time I was unaware

15     of any atrocities.  Subsequently, I found out about the atrocities and

16     I agree there was a massacre in Srebrenica.  I said that yesterday, very

17     clearly.  And why are we going over and over this particular matter, when

18     I have already stated, and admitted, there was a massacre in Srebrenica?

19     I do not understand you.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Can I have that as a Prosecution exhibit, please,

22     Your Honours?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6477, Your Honours.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 42555

 1        Q.   Mr. Zametica, these statements are cover-ups, just like that

 2     agreement is a cover-up of what actually happened in Srebrenica.  Isn't

 3     that the case?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Mr. Zametica, I'm going to read you something that you said in

 6     1997 during the course of an interview with journalist Jovan Janjic and

 7     it appeared in "Nin" in an article entitled:  "Karadzic won't go to

 8     The Hague."  You said:

 9             "The raison d'être of the Tribunal is precisely to convict

10     Karadzic and Mladic.  That is the Serbian nation.  People should

11     understand that the establishment of this ad hoc Tribunal in The Hague is

12     an unprecedented legal farce in the history of the United Nations."

13             Do you still stand by that, Mr. Zametica?

14        A.   Can I please have the article?  I would like to see it.

15        Q.   Mr. Zametica, this is a "yes" or "no" question.  Do you stand by

16     the proposition I've just put to you?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President --

18             THE WITNESS:  I would like to see the original in Serbian.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I don't have any difficulty with showing the

20     document to the witness.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, nor do I, Your Honours.  65 ter number 25243.

22             THE WITNESS:  But the Serbian version, please.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  And I would need a minute to -- if we go over to

24     the next page, please, in Serbian.  And by the way, the English reference

25     is pages 6 and 7.  Oh, I've got that wrong as well.  I think I was

Page 42556

 1     working on different English version.  For the English if we could go

 2     back to the previous, preceding page.  Apologies.  What I'm going to do

 3     is look at my hard copy and identify the proper passage in -- or the

 4     proper page number in English.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  I think it's at the top of page 4, maybe the end

 6     of page 3.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, thank you, Mr. Robinson.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I'm not trying to be difficult but I really cannot

 9     see the small -- the small print in the Serbian version.  I'm very keen

10     to actually see the exact part, if you can -- if you have ways and means

11     to --

12             JUDGE KWON:  We can collapse English part for some time.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, we can collapse the English, yes.

14             Yes, I have read it.  The translation isn't exact but it's -- I

15     mean, I don't have major objections.  So to answer your questions, no,

16     I no longer stand by that.  I have changed my mind with regard to that.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   And how have you changed your mind, Mr. Zametica?

19        A.   Well, I shall answer your question.  Recently, this Tribunal

20     acquitted -- acquitted the former head of Serbian state security,

21     Mr. Stanisic, and in the light of that acquittal, I thought about again

22     this Tribunal and I now realise that this Tribunal is a fair one.

23        Q.   Just your indulgence for a moment.  I'd like to check something.

24     Thank you.  I have no further questions.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, and pardon me, could we have this document,

Page 42557

 1     65 ter number 25243, tendered as a Prosecution exhibit, please?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit it.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6478, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you have some questions for your

 5     re-examination.  Shall we have a break or would you like to go on?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can take a break,

 7     Your Excellency, if that is what you believe is good.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I will leave it to you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then let us take the break now.

10             JUDGE KWON:  We shall have a break for half an hour and resume at

11     10 to 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please proceed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

16     Good morning to everyone.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Zametica.  You were asked

19     earlier today if you had carried out any investigations into the

20     allegations that some people were unaccounted for, and you were asked

21     about exchanges of prisoners.  I should like to ask you:  In your

22     experience, was it the first time that we had any prisoners?  In other

23     words, in three and a half years of war, had we ever faced circumstances

24     in which prisoners of war were liquidated?

25        A.   I'm certainly aware that, in the course of the war, we had

Page 42558

 1     prisoners, just like the other side or sides had our prisoners, and it

 2     was common practice to exchange those prisoners.  I'm certainly not aware

 3     that we had ever, as you put it, liquidated any of those prisoners.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You were shown the diary of the late

 5     Professor Koljevic, who wrote, among other things, about the capture of

 6     UN personnel during air strikes, and also about Srebrenica.  So I'd like

 7     to show you an excerpt.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we pull up in e-court,

 9     1D09847, please?  Page 1.  We can remove the cover page.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Could you please focus on paragraph 3.  I'll read:

12             [In English] "In the meantime, between the second and third

13     strikes, Tuzla was shelled and a scene occurred from which it would be

14     very difficult to establish what had happened.  Most probably a massacre

15     of civilians had been staged near a restaurant in Tuzla, similar to those

16     which happened in Vase Miskina Street and at the Markale Market.  It is

17     very unlikely that any of our people would have done something like that

18     on their own initiative, and certainly no one received such an order

19     because it would be just insane at this moment."

20             [Interpretation] How does this fit in with your experience of

21     these setups and propaganda?

22        A.   I think that in my statement, there is a mention of one such

23     incident, that's the Markale incident in, I think, February 1994.  And I

24     think I say in my statement that it looked as if this was a staged

25     massacre.  However, to this day, I really do not know the truth of the

Page 42559

 1     matter.  I think I said that, you know, this has not been conclusively

 2     established.  But one suspects that something like that would have played

 3     to the interest of the Muslim side, for obvious propaganda reasons, and

 4     it was fully used by them for propaganda purposes.  It brought them the

 5     sympathies of the world.

 6             From that point of view, I would not be surprised if the incident

 7     in Tuzla to which you have just drawn my attention and which is being

 8     talked about in Professor Koljevic's diary, I would not be surprised if

 9     that too were in that category.  However, I must emphasise I have no

10     knowledge, and I cannot say anything with any certainty regarding this

11     matter.  I should add that it would certainly have -- as

12     Professor Koljevic said, it would certainly be against the Serb interests

13     to do anything like that.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this page be admitted into

16     evidence, from Professor Koljevic's diary, although it would be good to

17     admit both books in their entirety.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zametica said he had no knowledge about this and

19     then all the important answers were recorded.  Do we have to admit it

20     still?  Mr. Robinson, could you assist us?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, I think since we covered this ground with

22     Deronjic and you decided to admit it -- but --

23             JUDGE KWON:  But in this case, that important part was read out

24     and it's in the record.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  No, I think in this case it's sufficient

Page 42560

 1     that what's been read out can be enough.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then shall we continue?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Just for purposes of

 4     clarification, I was more interested in whether Dr. Zametica was aware of

 5     this pattern, and what our knowledge was on the whole, and to what extent

 6     we could have any trust.  All right.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Dr. Zametica, you were asked quite a bit about our knowledge as

 9     to what happened in Srebrenica.  So I'd like to show you another excerpt

10     from 1D9748, Professor Koljevic's diary.  While we are waiting for that,

11     did we have several civilian commissioners for Srebrenica or only one, to

12     the best of your knowledge?

13        A.   I cannot remember.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer?

15             THE WITNESS:  I cannot remember how many commissars, civilian

16     commissars, for Srebrenica we had.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have page 3 now?

18     And if we could -- yes.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Would you please focus on the last

20     paragraph:

21             [In English] "Most immensely -- mostly immense media pressure is

22     being exerted on us again.  There is talk of the greatest ethnic

23     cleansing even though the Muslims left Srebrenica voluntarily, in the

24     presence of UNPROFOR.  I discussed this with our newly appointed

25     commissioner in Srebrenica, who was a student at the faculty of

Page 42561

 1     philosophy in Sarajevo some ten years ago, and from him I heard that

 2     there really had been no killing of civilians and how the Muslims did not

 3     want to remain in Srebrenica either out of fear because they were aware

 4     of what their combatants had done to the Serbs in the surrounding area

 5     due to the threat of Sarajevo -- threats from Sarajevo.  They were

 6     ordered to leave directly from Sarajevo."

 7             [Interpretation] How does this fit in?  This is the 21st of July,

 8     1995, his encounter with our civilian commissioner.  How does this fit

 9     into what you know and what your experience was?

10        A.   If you remember, I was already away from Pale in Montenegro on

11     that particular day, so I would not have talked to Professor Koljevic

12     about it, even though I would meet him on a regular basis, on a daily

13     basis, almost as frequently as I would meet you.  But, yes, I mean, I can

14     well believe that what Professor Koljevic wrote here is entirely correct.

15             I should add as a general point that Professor Koljevic's diary

16     is, in my subjective view, a very important source on the events of -- on

17     the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war.  He used to -- it's a

18     very authentic source.  He used to dictate into a dictaphone the events

19     of the day, late at night before he went to bed, and the following day,

20     I think his secretary would type this.  So they constitute a very, very

21     authentic source for everything that was going on.  And to this I should

22     add that Professor Koljevic was a man of great personal integrity and he

23     would not be making things up in his diary.  So that's the general point

24     I wanted to make in that connection.

25        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Zametica.  Is there any relevance in the fact that

Page 42562

 1     already in mid-January 1997, Dr. Koljevic was no longer with us?  And

 2     after that, he was no longer in a position to make any entries in his

 3     diary?

 4        A.   I haven't quite understood your question.  Can you please

 5     rephrase it or repeat it?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you overlapped with the translation.

 7     Please repeat your answer.  And in the future, please put a pause before

 8     answering the question.

 9             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I just wanted to ask you when, to the best of your knowledge,

11     Professor Koljevic passed away.

12        A.   This is well known.  He committed suicide in, I think, January

13     1997.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have a close relationship with

15     Professor Koljevic, or, rather, were you in close contact with him when

16     you were in Dayton during the negotiations there?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  We didn't talk about this, about

19     Professor Koljevic during the cross-examination.  This is far and away

20     outside the cross-examination.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Koljevic's diary was discussed in the direct

22     examination, not in the cross?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  No, a page, an entry from his diary was discussed.

24     We did not discuss any further than the diary.  We did not discuss the

25     witness's relationship with Koljevic, Koljevic's presence at Dayton,

Page 42563

 1     what's being put to the witness now, and that, I think, is outside of the

 2     cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Now I see the point.  Would you like to add

 4     anything, Mr. Robinson?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  I think if Dr. Karadzic would just show the

 6     witness the next document the relevance will be apparent.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just respond briefly.

 8     Dr. Zametica characterised this document as a first-rate document and

 9     that is why I wanted to establish until when this diary could have been

10     kept.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   So now the question is whether you were on the delegation

13     together while you were in Dayton and were you in contact?

14        A.   Yes.  Professor Koljevic was a member of the Republika Srpska

15     delegation at the Dayton peace talks, as indeed I was, and we were in

16     daily contact.  So, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D09751 in

19     e-court?  Page 3, please.  This is the entry for the 19th of November,

20     1995.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Please take a look at the first paragraph of that entry.  Or if

23     necessary, I can read it out.

24             [In English] "But The Hague anti-Serbian campaign continued

25     mercilessly to the end.  On Friday, 17th of November, the New York Times

Page 42564

 1     again poured forth its verbal artillery against Karadzic and Mladic with

 2     fresh and horrific alleged details from Srebrenica of how Muslim children

 3     had been killed in front of their mothers, and a grandfather had been

 4     made to eat his grandson's liver.  If these were true, those Serbian

 5     soldiers should not be sent to The Hague but to a Serbian summary court

 6     for the most drastic punishment for besmirching the name of the Serbs.

 7     Fortunately, however, but also sadly, these stories resemble too closely

 8     the previous imaginative 'testimony' of our former neighbours, and it is

 9     absolutely impossible to believe any such things."

10             [Interpretation] How does this relate to your experience

11     regarding what appeared in the media against us?  To what extent could it

12     be believed?  And to what extent did you share this experience with

13     Professor Koljevic?

14        A.   Well, yes, what Professor Koljevic wrote about in his diary,

15     which pertains to the period he was at Dayton, so he was obviously

16     reading US press there, that's something we were aware of.  But at the

17     time, I must say we were far more worried, not about the propaganda being

18     carried out against the Bosnian Serbs, rather we were concerned about the

19     course of the conference, so it wasn't a huge subject between us.

20             I should add one point because this is taking place during the

21     Dayton conference, I must say that during the Dayton conference, although

22     we had as a delegation, and as individuals within that delegation of

23     Republika Srpska, frequent contacts with representatives of international

24     organisations present there, and practically everyone was present, the

25     European Union was present, the Contact Group was present --

Page 42565

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Zametica.  I'm wondering where we

 2     are heading now at the moment.  I'm not sure whether it arises out of the

 3     cross-examination.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked Dr. Zametica whether he

 5     shared this experience with Professor Koljevic, and Dr. Zametica wanted

 6     to say what it was that they got in Dayton.  That is the end of November.

 7     In relation to the information that we had.  It's a question of the

 8     extent of our information, the degree to which we were informed.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I think Dr. Zametica answered your question.  And if

10     you have more, please proceed.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   During the conference in Dayton, did you receive some more

13     information orally, verbally, in addition to what the media said?  At the

14     conference was the crime in Srebrenica one of the topics?

15        A.   Yes, I was about to begin answering that, in fact, when

16     His Honour intervened, so let me continue.  Although everyone was present

17     at Dayton from the international community, as I began enumerating the

18     European Union, the Contact Group and so on, the United Nations, of

19     course, and the conference took place over three weeks, it lasted three

20     weeks, so a long time, no one, but no one, from the international

21     community ever, to my knowledge, raised the subject of Srebrenica with

22     us.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And the last question is of semantic nature, rather.

24     When you said that I was a weak president, did you mean that I was a bad

25     president?  As the media maliciously --

Page 42566

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I don't think Ms. Edgerton touched

 2     upon that issue.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.  I did not.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But there is this problem of

 5     phraseology.  The English phrase is being translated in a different way

 6     into our language so I just wanted it to be put -- well, just half a

 7     sentence.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             THE ACCUSED:  I can reformulate it.

11             JUDGE KWON:  While the issue does not arise from the line of

12     cross-examination, it seems to be related to the translation or meaning

13     of some words so we will -- on that basis we will allow you to continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Dr. Zametica, during the cross-examination as well, what was

17     being challenged was your position that I did not exercise control,

18     probably relying on what you said in constitutional terms, in terms of

19     the constitutional concept of the Presidency.  You said that I was a weak

20     president.  Tell us what you meant by that.  Was I a bad president or was

21     I a president who did not control the institutions that also operated?

22        A.   I think you have raised a legitimate point regarding this

23     translation question.  The English term "weak" translates into the

24     Serbian language as "slab," s-l-a-b.  Now, that in the Serbian language

25     has a double meaning.  It can mean weak in the English sense, or it can

Page 42567

 1     mean bad in the sense of not a good one.  Therefore, I wish to emphasise

 2     here, when I said you were a weak president, I did not mean to say you

 3     were a bad president.  I meant weak in the English sense of weak.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  I've just looked at the transcript for the last

 5     two days, the word "weak" was never mentioned so I don't know where this

 6     arises, but it could be my misunderstanding.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It was during his direct examination.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But during the cross, it was

 9     challenged, Dr. Zametica's position with regard to the control I had and

10     the insight I had, control over processes and institutions.  An attempt

11     was made to prove through intercepts that there was rapid

12     communication --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's leave it there.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Zametica.  I have no further questions.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Zametica.

18     On behalf of the Chamber, and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to

19     thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to

20     go.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE KWON:  I take it the next witness is ready.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.  It's

24     General Milenko Zivanovic.

25             THE ACCUSED:  Excellencies, should we tender those pages or you

Page 42568

 1     think it was read in the transcript?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's sufficient to have what was read out.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, if you could take the solemn declaration,

 5     please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILENKO ZIVANOVIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, General Zivanovic.  Please be seated and

11     make yourself comfortable.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, General, I must

14     draw your attention to a certain rule that we have here at the Tribunal.

15     That is Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to answering any

16     question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution or even from the Judges if

17     you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

18     In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount

19     to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

20     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

21     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

22     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

23     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

24     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

25     in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

Page 42569

 1     against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false

 2     testimony.

 3             Do you understand that, sir?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, General Zivanovic.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, General, sir.

10        A.   Good morning, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

11        Q.   Please could we both abide by this minor technical detail?  Could

12     we pause between my questions and your answers in order to save time

13     because otherwise we would have to repeat things and have things

14     corrected because time is required to interpret my sentences and yours.

15        A.   I will do my best that we are both properly heard and that we are

16     all understood in good time.

17             JUDGE KWON:  You were still too quick to start answering the

18     question before the translation is finished.  Please put a sufficient

19     pause.  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   General, sir, did you give a statement to my Defence team?

22        A.   Yes, I did, and I signed it.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

25     1D09060.

Page 42570

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is the document?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Your statement, you will see now.  You can identify it and tell

 4     us whether that's it.  What you see on the screen, is that your

 5     statement?

 6        A.   Just a moment, please.  Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last page please be shown

 9     to the witness so that he can identify the signature there?

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   General, sir, have you read and signed this statement?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement faithfully reflect what you

14     communicated to the Defence team?

15        A.   Yes, it does reflect it correctly.

16        Q.   Just a bit of patience, please.  I'm afraid that this is the

17     previous version that has been downloaded.  It should have been a more

18     recent one.  Between the first statement and the proofing you had here,

19     did you make any corrections?

20        A.   Yes, one particular item, and I also added a few new points, and

21     that was signed.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So that is after the 9th of June, so it was done now

23     in November -- no, rather, October?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We will have that version too.  Could you please tell

Page 42571

 1     us the following:  If I were to put the same questions to you today in

 2     the courtroom, would your answers be the same as those provided in the

 3     final version of this statement?

 4        A.   Yes, they would be the same.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Has the addendum been uploaded on a separate number?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  It's 1D9753.  If we could

 8     call that, I think that would correct it.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I wanted to see the

10     previous one but both were in e-court.  Could we please show the last

11     page now?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The 27th of October, is that the day when you signed the reviewed

14     statement?

15        A.   That's it, yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I tender this

17     92 ter statement to be admitted into evidence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We shall deal with the associated exhibits

19     separately.  Do you have any objection to the statement and the addendum,

20     Ms. Pack?  Good morning to you.

21             MS. PACK:  None, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Just one question.  It's about

23     paragraph 40 and 41, where he says he did not take part in the alleged

24     intercepted conversation.  What's the relevance?  I had difficulty

25     understanding why this is being tendered.  Are you going to pre-empt the

Page 42572

 1     Prosecution in case it is minded to tender this intercept?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  I think that was the idea, but we don't have to

 3     pursue that.  If you don't want to admit those, then it's not necessary.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let me ask, Ms. Pack, whether you're minded to deal

 5     with these two intercepts, otherwise we will order them -- the Defence to

 6     delete those two paragraphs.

 7             MS. PACK:  I didn't intend to deal with 40 and those two

 8     particular intercepts, no.  In fact, I could perhaps assist with one of

 9     them.  It's been admitted in any event, coming from a different source,

10     as P05294.  That's a redacted version, under seal as P05293 --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Which one is that?

12             MS. PACK:  That's the one that's identified as 1D09010.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Then it's important to leave the paragraph there.

14             MS. PACK:  Well, I --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Whether -- because he's still dealing -- I'm not --

16             MS. PACK:  That's a matter for the -- that's a matter for the

17     accused, but so far as the Prosecution is concerned, I'm just clarifying

18     that so it's clear to the Chamber that that intercept is an intercept

19     that has separately, from another source, been admitted.  And the

20     following paragraph is similarly referencing the contents, as

21     I understand it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Separate from the admissibility or admission, then

23     we'll -- the statement as well as the addendum as they are.  Shall we

24     give -- assign the numbers?

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 42573

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Does the addendum contain the previous statement?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, I see.  Thank you.  We will admit it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  The 65 ter number 1D9753 will be Exhibit D3932.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Aside from those two intercepts, do you have any

 6     objection to the associated exhibits, Ms. Pack?

 7             MS. PACK:  Yes, I do have some observations in relation to those.

 8     So far as 1D09017, it's a small observation, but there is no foundation

 9     laid for the admission of the photos at pages 1 and 3 of this -- the

10     document as uploaded, only the one at page 2.  So far as 1D09025 is

11     concerned, that is apparently an article -- an interview of -- it is an

12     interview of the witness but it's at pages 1 and 2 only of the document

13     uploaded, so I would oppose the admission of the third page which is a

14     second article.

15             JUDGE KWON:  You said the last two digits is 25?

16             MS. PACK:  Yes, that's right.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not a letter?  The 65 ter number, the

18     interview, seems to be ending with 27.

19             MS. PACK:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I'm very grateful to you,

20     Mr. President.  Yes, that's absolutely right.  So that is the document to

21     which I was referring.  And it's the first two pages, which is where the

22     interview is located.

23             So far as another two documents are concerned, P04553, which is a

24     presidential order of the 14th of July, there is no foundation laid in

25     paragraph 36 for the admission of that exhibit.

Page 42574

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Does it not mean that it has been already admitted?

 2             MS. PACK:  It has but there is -- it's already been admitted but

 3     it just -- it may well be that the wrong exhibit is referenced in the

 4     statement and indeed it is sought to admit the wrong exhibit.  But I'm --

 5     I refer the Chamber to that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the Defence is tendering that

 7     document.

 8             MS. PACK:  Okay.  And so far as one further exhibit is concerned,

 9     P05291, I would just caution that that has previously been admitted under

10     seal.  So, so far it is referenced by -- in the court, that that should

11     remain the case.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  So as to those intercepts, one is

13     already admitted, as indicated by Ms. Pack, so there is no problem with

14     it.  But with the remainder, 1D9018, there is no basis to admit it.  So

15     shall we -- we will not admit it.  And then as the Chamber finds that

16     following documents does not form an inseparable or indispensable part of

17     the statement or that -- or the witness did not sufficiently discuss

18     those documents, and they are:  1D9003, discussed in para 17; 1D9016,

19     discussed in para 47; and -- and that's it.  So we will not admit those

20     documents.

21             And finally, 1D9021 is his separate statement, so to speak.  So

22     I'm not sure whether this kind of document can be admitted as an

23     associated exhibit.  So if the Defence is minded to tender this document,

24     I would instruct the accused to lead it live.

25             So I think I made the ruling sufficiently clear.

Page 42575

 1             And finally, I take it that Defence has no difficulty to admit

 2     only page 2 as indicated by Ms. Pack.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.  And also with

 4     respect to 9027, we will just admit pages 1 and 2 of that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I missed that.  The Chamber doesn't think that that

 6     also -- that does not form inseparable and indispensable part of the

 7     statement.  So we will not admit it either.  So if the Defence finds it

 8     important, it should lead live.  So with that caveat, the remaining

 9     documents will be admitted into evidence and assigned numbers in due

10     course by the Registrar.

11             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read the

13     short summary of General Milenko Zivanovic's statement in the English

14     language, and it's the statement that has just been admitted.

15             [In English] General Milenko Zivanovic served as commander of the

16     Drina Corps of the Bosnian Serb Army, VRS, in November -- from

17     November 1992 until July 1995.  The main task of the Drina Corps was to

18     defend the Serbian people in the Podrinje area of Eastern Bosnia.  The

19     Muslim forces in the enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde were

20     constantly launching attacks against Serbian civilians.  They torched the

21     Serbian homes and killed women, children and the elderly.  The

22     Drina Corps advocated a genuine demilitarisation of the area but that

23     never happened.

24             Despite the lack of demilitarisation of the enclaves,

25     General Zivanovic facilitated the delivery of humanitarian aid to the

Page 42576

 1     population in those areas by the United Nations and international

 2     humanitarian organisations.

 3             After the Bosnian Muslims had expanded the boundaries of the

 4     Srebrenica enclave so as to connect it to Zepa and use that connection to

 5     smuggle weapons into the Srebrenica enclave in July 1995, the Drina Corps

 6     commenced an effort to separate the enclaves.  After that effort had

 7     commenced, General Zivanovic had a telephone conversation with

 8     President Karadzic which was recorded.  During that conversation,

 9     President Karadzic insisted that UN personnel stationed in Srebrenica be

10     treated correctly.  There was never any plan to displace or kill Bosnian

11     Muslims of Srebrenica and he never spoke with President Karadzic about

12     any such plan.

13             General Zivanovic had another telephone conversation with

14     President Karadzic the night after the Bosnian Serb Army had entered

15     Srebrenica.  President Karadzic inquired about the number of casualties

16     and appeared satisfied when told that there had been no casualties.

17     There was never any discussion between General Zivanovic and

18     President Karadzic about the execution of prisoners.  From his knowledge

19     of President Karadzic, General Zivanovic is confident that President

20     Karadzic would never be in favour of or condone the execution of

21     prisoners.  General Zivanovic had no knowledge of any plan to execute

22     prisoners from Srebrenica and had no idea anyone would do such a thing.

23             General Zivanovic never informed President Karadzic that

24     prisoners from Srebrenica would be, were being, or had been executed.

25     General Zivanovic never saw any written report or document in which the

Page 42577

 1     execution of prisoners from Srebrenica was mentioned.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Before I allow you to be cross-examined by the Prosecution,

 4     I would ask you, General, whether you brought with you and handed over to

 5     the Defence one map?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show in e-court

 9     1D9755?  Could we please zoom in?

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And can you please read aloud the title of this map?  What does

12     it map represent and why is it important?

13        A.   This map is a document which was in my office from the moment

14     when it was drawn up, that is to say, February 1993, up until -- let me

15     say, well, it has survived to this day.

16        Q.   And why is it important?  What does it show?  Why is it

17     important?

18        A.   The title on the map reads:

19             "Overview of the destruction of Serbian villages in the area of

20     Srebrenica and Bratunac municipalities from May 1992 until January 1993."

21             So no enclaves are mentioned here as yet.  This is the beginning

22     of the war conflict in the said areas.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And who produced this map?

24        A.   The map was made by my professional organs under my personal

25     supervision.  Why?  Because it's a document that is crucially truthful,

Page 42578

 1     which showed and demonstrated that the Serbian people in these areas has

 2     practically been destroyed.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Chamber what happened after

 4     January 1993 and why?  In the conflict in this -- first of all, why was

 5     it only in January or, rather, February 1993 that you stopped such a

 6     situation?

 7        A.   When you look at the map as a whole, it shows that, in fact, more

 8     than 90 per cent of the territory of the areas of the Srebrenica and

 9     Bratunac municipalities were physically destroyed.  It is clearly

10     depicted on the map where the Muslim armed forces from Srebrenica

11     attacked by month.  Please, if we could show the key of the map, because

12     there are different symbols here.  You can stop now.

13        Q.   When was the Drina Corps established and why?

14        A.   The Drina Corps was established on the 1st of November, 1992,

15     with the main purpose not to allow the Serbian people in the area between

16     Zvornik and Visegrad to be completely wiped out, including the Romanija

17     municipalities of Han Pijesak, Sokolac, and Rogatica.

18        Q.   Could you now explain these colours a little bit for us?  Please,

19     what do these forms and shapes mean, the rectangles and the circles?

20        A.   These symbols, the topographic symbols on the map, as we, the

21     soldiers, would call them, show by month the axis of the movement of the

22     enemy forces, that is to say, the Muslim forces, through the Serbian

23     populated areas.  And the circles that we can see here are the results of

24     the activities of Muslim forces in May 1992, as the key says.  Each of

25     these circles stands at a place of one independent Serbian settlement.

Page 42579

 1        Q.   What is --

 2        A.   Please, please.  Which means, which means, if you allow me, which

 3     means that where a circle has been placed, that village was destroyed.

 4     Whoever could be killed was killed or wounded or went missing, and those

 5     who were lucky managed to run away.

 6             Looking at the results of what happened in the month of May, if

 7     we look at the key, we can then see what were the attacks launched in

 8     June.  For June we used the squares, as you can see.  We are now showing

 9     with a pointer at the village where I was born.  The 21st of June was the

10     date.  The village was completely razed with the surrounding hamlets and

11     with all its inhabitants, destroyed, destroyed.  And if we could please

12     stop here for a moment, with a further explanation of the -- of the map

13     itself.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Pack?

15             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, if this is going to continue into a

16     protracted examination of alleged crimes again Serbian civilians, then

17     I'm afraid I have to object.  This is evidence that -- the Trial Chamber

18     has already said that any evidence -- it won't accept tu quoque evidence

19     as it has no impact on the accused's responsibility for the crimes

20     charged, so my objection is on that basis.  And I think I've allowed a

21     few questions in, but so far as they continue, I oppose them and I would

22     oppose admission of this map.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, what I wish

25     to elicit from this witness were the reasons for establishing an

Page 42580

 1     existence of the Drina Corps, both the reasons and the purpose, and the

 2     plans of the Muslim armed forces which conditioned the conduct of the

 3     Drina Corps.  It's not tu quoque.  I'm not looking for any sort of

 4     justification but an understanding why was the Drina Corps set up.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber allowed you to continue because it may

 6     be related to understand the background and the reason for the

 7     establishment of Drina Corps, whether it's relevant or not.  But it does

 8     not help anybody if you go into too much -- too much detail.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   General, sir, as obviously we do not have enough time, could

12     I please ask you to summarise for the Chamber the villages -- the circles

13     stand for the villages that were torched in May, the squares in June, and

14     how about the oval shapes and so on?  And can you tell us what were the

15     goals of the BH Army which resulted in the forming of the Drina Corps?

16        A.   As I said, we can see in the key these various geometrical forms

17     which are placed on the locations where certain settlements were

18     destroyed by months and ending with the 17th of January, 1993.  And the

19     number 157 individual settlements which had been destroyed.

20        Q.   Thank you.  What were the goals?  What was the purpose for which

21     these armed forces were doing that in our rear?  First of all, where was

22     the front line facing the main part of the BH Army?

23        A.   Unfortunately, these villages were unprotected.  There were no

24     front lines there as such, because up to number 42, up until the

25     19th of May, 1992, the JNA was responsible for this area, the

Page 42581

 1     Yugoslav People's Army.  So they ought to be asked what were their

 2     reports about the destruction of these villages and the end of any life

 3     in them.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any particular reasons for which the

 5     BH Army wanted to keep this zone in war, and fighting?

 6        A.   One doesn't need to be very wise to understand that this is the

 7     classical ethnic cleansing of an area, from the non-Muslim population.

 8     I'm not sure how else I could express it.  In other words, not a single

 9     house was skipped, not a single Serbian family was left to live in its

10     own area.  And if that were to be allowed, then there would have been no

11     end to the massacres.  So that was the main message, that a corps, an

12     operative force, would have to be formed which would cover all these

13     areas and prevent complete destruction of the Serbian population in the

14     said areas.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please explain for us the military reasons,

16     the strategic reasons, for preventing these activities in terms of

17     communication and so on?

18        A.   It's understandable that every communication, peacetime

19     communication, in these areas would stop, especially as communication

20     along the Drina River was cut off.  And there is proof that they planned

21     to destroy the Bajina Basta hydroelectric power plant which would have

22     caused a tsunami such as has never been seen there.  Then the area is

23     important for the ores with which it is rich.  Everything was cut off,

24     the life stopped.  It was frozen.  Natural life was practically dead.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the composition of the Drina Corps in

Page 42582

 1     military terms?  Where did its people come from?  Were they professional

 2     soldiers, and can you tell us who did you command over?

 3        A.   The military composition of the Drina Corps, it was made up of

 4     able-bodied Serbian population from these areas, including, as I said,

 5     the municipalities of Zvornik and Visegrad.  Let me say Sokolac as well,

 6     Rogatica, and all the areas from there towards the Drina.  There were

 7     some of us professional officers, professional JNA officers, who were

 8     natives from this area and our task was to set up the corps, to order the

 9     units, and to prevent further exodus of the people in the area.

10        Q.   You said that those who were lucky, from the destroyed villages,

11     had managed to flee and that they were fortunate.  Did you have any

12     soldiers who hailed from the destroyed villages?

13        A.   The majority of the soldiers of the Drina Corps hailed precisely

14     from the areas where the villages had been destroyed.  So overnight they

15     had become homeless, so to speak, because when I checked the lists of the

16     unit members, and their personal documents, the majority of the people in

17     the corps were from these areas.  Those were the areas.  That was how the

18     subordinate commands got their names, the Milici, Han Pijesak, Sekovici

19     and other units.

20        Q.   Did you have any problems with keeping them under control?  What

21     was the state of mind of these people who had lost everything, their

22     villages and their property, their relatives?  Did you have to deal with

23     that?  What was the state of mind of these people?

24        A.   To be sincere, the command made considerable efforts not to

25     return evil with evil, not to pay back, but when the conditions were

Page 42583

 1     created to re-establish life but to prevent any instances of revenge.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this map be admitted, please?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Pack?

 5             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, it's not been translated so I would ask

 6     that before it's admitted it's translated.  I won't oppose its admission

 7     otherwise, having in mind what Your Honour has indicated.  That's my only

 8     objection.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark it for identification.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, 65 ter number 1D9755 will be

11     MFI D3954.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  At this moment, I have

13     no further questions for General Zivanovic.

14             JUDGE KWON:  General Zivanovic, as you have noted, your

15     evidence-in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing in most part

16     in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you will be cross-examined by the

17     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. Pack.

18             Please proceed, Ms. Pack.

19             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. Pack:

21        Q.   General, you spoke to the accused's investigator, Milomir Savcic,

22     on the 20th of March, 2013; is that right?  Do you remember talking to

23     him and telling him --

24        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

25        Q.   You told him you had received death threats.  You said there was

Page 42584

 1     a group of Muslim extremists in Vienna that had put a price on your head,

 2     and that whoever brought your head on a platter would receive gold, that

 3     you wouldn't testify whatever the cost.  Do you remember saying those

 4     things?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   Now, Milomir Savcic didn't believe you.  He said he thought that

 7     the reasons given by you were not true and were unjustified, and that, in

 8     fact, you had been instructed not to testify.  Is that right?  You

 9     weren't telling the truth to the accused's investigator?

10        A.   Please, you have to understand that I'm telling only the truth,

11     and I've lived only with the truth all my life.  What you just said, the

12     last part, that I was instructed not to testify, who said that?  Where

13     was it said?

14             MS. PACK:  I'm just going to refer to 65 ter 25455, please, which

15     is the official note from Milomir Savcic of his conversation with the

16     witness.

17        Q.   Now, this is in English so I'm going to have to read out the last

18     paragraph for you.

19             "I believe that the reasons given by Mr. Zivanovic are not true

20     and are therefore unjustified.  I believe that he has been instructed to

21     refuse to testify," and it continues.

22             Did you fabricate death threats to avoid having to testify?

23        A.   No.  None of this stands.  I don't know how the gentleman

24     Mr. Savcic, came to this conclusion because I know the man from the war.

25     He did not introduce himself to me officially.  Instead he came to me,

Page 42585

 1     accompanied by a journalist, to meet like former comrades-in-arms and we

 2     talked, formally and informally, about our adventures from before the war

 3     and during the war.  And as to this allegation that I lied and I don't

 4     want to testify, that's not true.

 5             I am a war veteran, disabled.  My lungs are punctured.  I suffer

 6     from high blood pressure and diabetes, but precisely for the sake of

 7     truth and my whole life with all its trials and tribulations, I wanted to

 8     come here, and I'm really honoured to be here, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was not recorded that the

11     general said he still has shrapnel inside his body.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I said bullets.  If you allow

13     me --

14             MS. PACK:

15        Q.   We'll move on, please.  Now the Drina Corps was formed on the

16     1st of November, 1992, and you were appointed its commander, right?  On

17     the 8th of --

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   On the 8th of November, soon after the formation of the corps,

20     you attended a meeting with the accused, with General Mladic, with the

21     Defence Minister, Subotic, Krajisnik, other corps commanders.  You

22     remember that, that meeting on the 8th, took all day?

23        A.   Please, you have to understand, there were several meetings.  As

24     for the precise day, after 20 years, the substance of the meeting and all

25     the details, I would have to analyse this in depth to be able to recall

Page 42586

 1     everything.  Yes, I did attend several such meetings, but I have to tell

 2     you none of them, at least to the best of my recollection, was not about

 3     any wrongdoing, misdeeds.  None of these meetings led into any violation

 4     of the rules and customs of war.  That is my answer.

 5             MS. PACK:  Can we have P01481, please.

 6        Q.   I'm going to help with you remembering that meeting.  This is an

 7     extract from the handwritten notebook of Mladic.  I'm going to take you

 8     to the entry dated 8th November 1992.

 9             MS. PACK:  It's in the English e-court at page 141, and in the

10     B/C/S at page 141.  Actually, can we have the B/C/S transcript as opposed

11     to the handwritten original?  Thank you.

12        Q.   These are Mladic's notes of the meeting that you attended on the

13     8th of November, 1992.  And you can see it's a meeting with the corps

14     commanders; right?  Look at the heading at the top, the date at the top,

15     and the time.

16        A.   Thank you.  Yes.

17        Q.   That helps you remember you attended that meeting.  It was with

18     Karadzic and others.  Yes?

19        A.   Yes.  Well, I never said I didn't attend.  Of course, I did, and

20     every document you show me is of assistance.

21             MS. PACK:  Can we look at page 143?  In both B/C/S and English.

22        Q.   You can see at point 5 there you're mentioned.  And there you say

23     the corps is living through its eighth day.  So you remember being there,

24     saying something similar?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 42587

 1             MS. PACK:  We can go, please, to page 146 -- 145, I apologise.

 2        Q.   There we have, halfway down the page, President Karadzic, notes

 3     of what he is saying in that meeting.  That's right, isn't it?

 4        A.   I see this, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. PACK:  We can turn to the following page, please, 146.

 7        Q.   And we can see President Karadzic there concluding at the bottom

 8     of the entry which is noting what he has said, says:  Maybe it would be

 9     good if we solved the issue of the Drina.

10             If you look at the left screen, that's got the B/C/S in it,

11     I think.  Have you got it?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   And after Karadzic speaks, we have Krajisnik.  Yes?  You can see

14     that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And he begins, "I admire the military successes," and you can

17     read along in the B/C/S while I'm reading out the English.  "Which is

18     very dangerous to seize their territories, the Drina and the Neretva, we

19     have a disproportionate engagement of the army in relation to the

20     strategic objectives."

21             MS. PACK:  That's over the page, so we can go to page 147,

22     please.

23        Q.   He continued:

24             "We have not achieved the Neretva, the sea and the Podrinje area.

25     We have achieved the corridor, separation with the Muslims."

Page 42588

 1             And then he goes on:

 2             "We must bring the war to an end.  The most pressing thing is to

 3     mop up Orasje and then to solve the problem of the Podrinje area and the

 4     Neretva valley area" -- sorry, "the Neretva River valley as soon as

 5     possible.  The Muslims must not stay with us and they should not be given

 6     any kind of autonomy.  The most important objective is the task assigned

 7     to Zivanovic, the mopping up of the Drina.  The most important task is

 8     separation from the Muslims."

 9        A.   There is nothing bad about this.  When you see the reference to

10     the mopping up of the Drina, what is meant are all these villages that we

11     saw on the map a moment ago, devastated Serb areas.  And if only I were

12     able to show you the maps of Sekovic, Zvornik, Han Pijesak, then his

13     statement would be more easily understandable.  But further below it says

14     "separation from the Muslims," it doesn't say "kill the Muslims."  It

15     says "separation from them."

16             If anybody had, God forbid, told me --

17        Q.   That's right.  Wait a second.  Wait.

18        A.   I'm sorry, sorry, we'll take it easy.

19        Q.   Let's take it in stages, please.

20        A.   May I?

21        Q.   You agree that he says what is recorded here.  You agree that

22     that is what he said at this meeting.  Yes?

23        A.   Oh, he did say that.  That's not in dispute.  I don't know what

24     we are talking about here, whether I agreed with -- with whoever said

25     whatever at the meeting.  But this thing about the enemy, this is their

Page 42589

 1     free speech.  It doesn't say kill the Muslims anywhere.  It says

 2     separation.  If anybody had mentioned the killing of Muslims to me, they

 3     would have never seen me again.

 4        Q.   But if they say ethnic cleansing, that's okay?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could we be shown where

 6     mopping up is shown to mean ethnic cleansing?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What ethnic cleansing?  Do you see

 8     the map we just looked at?  It's like leopard skin, throughout.  There

 9     were 157 villages where everybody was killed.  A Serb could not enter

10     those villages to pluck a plum off the tree.  Whoever went in was as good

11     as dead.  That's the problem.

12             MS. PACK:

13        Q.   You knew, didn't you, General, that yours was the most important

14     task remaining for the VRS, and that task, General, that task was the

15     ethnic cleansing of the Podrinje; right?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Overruled.  Overruled.  Please continue, Ms. Pack.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

19             MS. PACK:

20        Q.   You yourself believed, didn't you, that there was no room for

21     co-existence with the Muslims in the Podrinje; right?

22        A.   If you only knew how much life I spent living together with the

23     Muslims before the war and during the war, you would never ask me this

24     question.  I offered my blood for the Muslim wounded.  I rescued Muslims.

25     The Muslims invited me to serve as their commander.  They wanted me as

Page 42590

 1     their commander.  Do you imagine how much effort we made to help these

 2     people?  You are trying to paint me here as a henchman.  You should not

 3     be doing this.  You should ask my Muslim friends, close friends, some of

 4     whom are my best men at my wedding, what they think.

 5        Q.   You, the commander of the Drina Corps, you would never have said

 6     something like:  There is no room for co-existence?  That's not the sort

 7     of thing you would say?

 8        A.   Oh, wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  What kind of co-existence can

 9     you have if you have a front line between two warring parties?  But when

10     the war is over, when the front line exists no more, we have no choice

11     but to live together.  That is the alpha and omega in our region.  We

12     have to live together, whereas individual perpetrators should be held to

13     account, brought to justice.  The lofty aim of all of us, including this

14     honourable Tribunal, is to create a better quality of life in our region.

15             MS. PACK:  I'd like to look at 1D09027, please.

16        Q.   I just want to refer you very quickly to an extract of an

17     interview that you gave to interview [sic] on the 22nd of July, 1993.

18             MS. PACK:  I'd like to turn to page 3, please in the English.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's my house.  Where did you get

20     this?  This is my house.

21             MS. PACK:

22        Q.   Now, let me just ask you to look, please, at one part of this

23     which is the second column, please.  Second column on the second page of

24     the B/C/S, there we go.  Thank you.  And it's the second paragraph down

25     in that second column and I'm just going to read it out to you.  And you

Page 42591

 1     can perhaps indicate that you have the right section.  You say -- you

 2     claim:

 3             "While our army is respecting the agreement in a disciplined

 4     manner," this is referring to the enclaves which had been established,

 5     "they are evading it in the" --

 6        A.   I can follow.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Let me read it out in English and you can follow the B/C/S:

 8             [As read] "... they are evading it in the belief that the status

 9     of the safety zones they will give them more time.  But as commander of a

10     corps that has resolved the military part of the problem in Podrinje, my

11     message to them is:  Don't fool yourselves.  They should not succumb to

12     collective hysteria but accept the outcome they have tailored for

13     themselves, and once again we offer them an honourable epilogue.  In

14     this, I have to be sincere.  There is no room for co-existence.  It only

15     mean that my Ratkovici and Ducici," which are your villages you referred

16     to, "will never again fear death at the hands of a stranger, a knife in

17     the back."

18             Then you say:

19             "I know the norm of the international community is that everyone

20     should return to his hearth.  But I say that there are no more hearths,

21     only ashes."

22             And then you continue.  Now --

23        A.   Yes.  The burned-down hearths of our houses.  Look at the date,

24     look at the date that you've shown me yourself when this journalist wrote

25     this report.

Page 42592

 1        Q.   You -- you, General, you --

 2        A.   Could I ask you, do you know that I, without Karadzic knowing,

 3     without Mladic knowing, although I know that Karadzic would have approved

 4     it 100 per cent, and that's why I did it, I established a hotline between

 5     my forces and the Muslim forces.  That was February 1993.  And

 6     I suggested more than once that everybody should stay in their homes that

 7     were not devastated.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Before you continue, General Zivanovic, I would like

 9     you to answer the question first.  Ms. Pack asked you whether you said

10     this.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a formulation authored by

12     the journalist.  You see the photograph showing my burned-down house, the

13     doorstep of my house, and on another photograph you see the devastated

14     cemetery where my parents were buried.  In those circumstances, could we

15     talk about co-existence?  Yes, co-existence is possible, but only when

16     those who had been responsible for crimes are brought to justice.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The translation is not good.  This

18     photograph is the -- shows the house where he was born, and in the

19     English translation, we didn't hear that.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a very, very hard day in

21     my life, when I came and saw the debris, all that remained of my house,

22     and the cemetery where my parents were buried, destroyed.  Who could have

23     had anything against my parents?  My mother had fed more Muslim children

24     than her own.

25             MS. PACK:

Page 42593

 1        Q.   Let's keep to this document, please.  You don't deny, then,

 2     saying those words; is that right?

 3        A.   At this time, with those feelings, I could have said even harsher

 4     words but I didn't.  I did not sign this, by the way.  This is an article

 5     authored by the journalist that reflects certain thoughts.  But to talk

 6     about co-existence on that day, when I came to my birthplace and saw what

 7     I saw, I have to ask you and myself and everyone:  Who defended my

 8     village, whose army?  Whose army was it that defended my village?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry, but I don't think you're still answering the

10     question.  Could you answer the question?  Shall I ask Ms. Pack to ask

11     the question again?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just caution that the

13     transcript is not entirely correct.  Maybe that creates a false

14     impression.  General Zivanovic says, "I do not renounce the thoughts

15     expressed in this interview, but this was authored by the journalist."

16     The fact that General Zivanovic said, "I do not renounce the thoughts

17     expressed in the interview" is missing from the record.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I leave it to you, Ms. Pack.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And, again, again it was not

20     recorded that the witness said, "And that is the answer."

21             MS. PACK:

22        Q.   You don't renounce what was your view and your task, which was

23     to -- to live in a Podrinje that was free of Muslims; right?

24        A.   No, no.  Please don't -- that we separate, that we should

25     separate.

Page 42594

 1             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, I'd just like to admit that one page of

 2     that document, please.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I would ask that this

 4     document be admitted in its entirety.  It was an associated exhibit.  It

 5     shows, for example, the photograph of his house that he refers to in his

 6     statement.  He didn't seem to indicate exactly why it wouldn't be part of

 7     his -- a comprehensive part of his statement, but in any event, now that

 8     it's been used and he's explained the photographs as well as the text, I

 9     think it should be admitted.

10             MS. PACK:  I don't oppose admission of the whole.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let me take a brief look at paragraph 16.  Just a

12     second.  Very well.  We will admit it.

13             JUDGE KWON:  As a Prosecution exhibit or Defence Exhibit?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, we would appreciate it if it could be

15     admitted as a Defence Exhibit, although it's not a big point.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Pack?

17             MS. PACK:  Don't oppose.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We shall admit it as a Defence Exhibit.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3955, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a break, Ms. Pack?  If it is

21     convenient.

22             MS. PACK:  Yes, it is.  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We will have a break for 45 minutes and resume at

24     quarter past 1.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

Page 42595

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Pack.

 3             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Directive 4, we're going to talk about directive 4.  It was the

 5     first directive to regulate the activities of the Drina Corps, wasn't it?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7             MS. PACK:  P00976, please.  I just ask, please, for the English

 8     page 5 and in the B/C/S page 11.

 9        Q.   I'm just going to ask you to deal with one paragraph which I've

10     no doubt you know well.  It's under the heading:  "Tasks of the units,"

11     and this is the tasks for the Drina Corps, D.  And you can see it's the

12     second paragraph there in the B/C/S -- I'm sorry, is it page 11 you have

13     there of the B/C/S?  Yes.  You can see what it says.  I'm just going to

14     read it out:

15             From its present positions its main forces are to defend with the

16     utmost persistence, Visegrad, Zvornik and the corridor, while the rest of

17     its forces in the wider Podrinje region are to exhaust the enemy, inflict

18     the heaviest possible losses on them, and force them to leave the Birac,

19     Zepa and Gorazde areas with the Muslim population.  Right?  Very familiar

20     with this order, this directive?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   We are going to go to P02085 which is your document, your

23     Drina Corps command document, which followed directive 4.

24             MS. PACK:  Can we have, please, first page in both languages?

25        Q.   And we see of course, and you agree, this order derived from

Page 42596

 1     directive 4, it was issued pursuant to directive 4; that's right, isn't

 2     it?  Yes?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   And I'd like you to look, please, at the first paragraph, the

 5     paragraph 1.  You ordered this:  Launch an attack against the main body

 6     of troops and major equipment to inflict on the enemy the highest

 7     possible losses, exhaust them, break them or force them to surrender, and

 8     force the Muslim local population to abandon the area of Cerska, Zepa,

 9     Srebrenica, and Gorazde.  Yes?

10        A.   Yes, I've read it.

11        Q.   And this is what you understood to be the task assigned to you

12     under directive 4, right, to force -- included forcing the Muslim

13     population to abandon the area, forcing the Muslim population out; right?

14        A.   Yes.  But that Muslim population was staying at Serb villages and

15     had taken Serb property too.  Why?  Because whenever they took a

16     territory, they would not allow Serb citizens any kind of access.  I'm

17     not talking about Serb soldiers.  I'm talking about proprietors,

18     civilians.  When people who were Serbs tried to enter their own village,

19     they would be killed.  So that is the factual situation.  That population

20     that was in our areas was supposed to leave those areas, to my mind it is

21     understandable to this day.  If my brother returns to his own village to

22     his own home, to the burned remains of his home, he has this Muslim

23     waiting there for him, in his house, on his field.  I'm not going to send

24     my brother to a Muslim village, I'm going to send him to his own village.

25     That would be the essence of my response to this paragraph number 1.  You

Page 42597

 1     have to understand this.  I repeat:  No Serbs were allowed access to a

 2     single square metre of territory that they had taken, ever.

 3        Q.   You'll have to help me understand your evidence, General.  You

 4     are saying, are you, that the areas identified in your order, the areas

 5     Cerska, Zepa, Srebrenica and Gorazde, what are you saying, these are

 6     Serbian areas, these are burned Serbian homes, where you planned to --

 7     you planned to replace the Muslim population with Serbs?  I don't

 8     understand what your point is.

 9        A.   When you say "Srebrenica," look at the hydroelectric power plant

10     at Bajina Basta and then go up to Drinjaca, that was Srebrenica to my

11     mind.  When I say "Cerska," I'm referring to all the villages east of

12     Vlasenica all the way to Kamenica on the Drina.  So this is just an

13     abridged view.  So these were Serb areas that were taken by Muslims and

14     they had to be returned to their rightful owners.  That is the essence of

15     the answer.  That's it.

16             I did not list 50 villages here now from the Drina all the way to

17     Srebrenica and to Drinjaca.  That is 80 kilometres.  I just said what the

18     central place was.  And please note that it says here that the road

19     should be repaired.  Milici, Konjevic Polje, Zvornik, please, where is

20     all of that.  This road is a vital road and it led to the Alumina

21     factory, from the bauxite mines to the Alumina factory, so the road

22     should be kept running.  And on both sides of that road, there are Muslim

23     areas, Serb areas, in particular when one knows for sure, as is the case,

24     that the drivers who were driving the ore were killed in Konjevic Polje,

25     as drivers, not as soldiers.

Page 42598

 1        Q.   Are you saying in a nutshell that the -- that the removal of

 2     Muslim civilians from these areas was justified because you wanted to

 3     replace them with Serbs?

 4        A.   I just wanted to protect them that so that they would not lose

 5     their lives.  That is my answer.  To protect them so that they would not

 6     lose their lives.  And you will save them if you keep them far away from

 7     the front line because even the innocent get killed at the front.

 8        Q.   Did you need to burn the houses from which you -- in the villages

 9     that you attacked?

10        A.   Which houses?

11        Q.   You were burning homes, weren't you?

12        A.   Please.  These are very harsh words, too harsh.  These are not

13     houses.  These are points of resistance of the enemy army, and from each

14     and every window, I repeat from each and every window there were

15     machine-guns that were firing and then also there were observers who

16     guided the fire.  So these are strongholds, combat strongholds.  Why did

17     I not burn Srebrenica?  Or, for example, why did we not burn that

18     settlement in Jadar that was used by the Muslims, that was put up by the

19     United Nations?  So I said when there was no resistance, there would be

20     no torching.  That's my answer.  That's the truth.  And that's why

21     Srebrenica did stay on with all of its housing potential.

22        Q.   We are not talking about Srebrenica yet.

23             MS. PACK:  Can we look at P03162?

24        Q.   I'm just trying to understand your claim in your statement at

25     paragraph 15.  You said it was the right and the duty of the Drina Corps

Page 42599

 1     to ensure the restitution of houses and land belonging to Serbian

 2     civilians.  Yes?  That's what you say in your statement.  Looking here at

 3     an order --

 4        A.   Who else?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the end of

 6     the sentence.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask whether the witness has a

 8     copy of his own statement?

 9             MS. PACK:  I'm unable to assist.  I don't know if he was provided

10     with one.  I'm showing him a document on the screen, D -- P03162.

11             THE ACCUSED:  We could give him a hard copy, if you allow.

12             MS. PACK:  That would be helpful.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful, Your Honour.

15        Q.   I'm trying to understand your evidence at paragraph 15.  Perhaps

16     you can just take a look at it.  You can look at the last -- last

17     sentence which is the sentence I just read out.  Got it?  Last sentence.

18     I just read it out and I would like you to look at the document on the

19     screen.

20        A.   I'm sorry, what was it that you read out?

21        Q.   The last sentence at paragraph 15.

22        A.   You mean the target of the attack was never Muslim civilians but

23     only the Muslim forces who had massacred the Serb civilians.  It was the

24     right and the duty of the Drina Corps to ensure the restitution of houses

25     and land belonging to Serbian civilians.  Now, what is unclear here?

Page 42600

 1        Q.   Can you take a look, please, at this document, this report that

 2     you have on the screen.  You can see here it's a report from Andric, then

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Andric, 2nd of March.  It's a report to the Drina

 4     Corps command, 2nd of March, 1993.  Right?  And I'd like you to look at

 5     the second paragraph, please, last sentence, and what he's reporting

 6     there, and I'll read it out, is:

 7             "The village of Gobelji has been burnt and tomorrow the plan is

 8     to do Paljevine."

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   I see that.

11        Q.   Your units were burning villages, weren't they?

12        A.   Wait a minute, wait a minute.  Allow me to ask you something.

13     Why will you not read the first paragraph out to me of this very same

14     document?  We should not just look at segments of documents and analyse

15     them.  We should look at the entirety of documents and analyse them.

16     Please look at paragraph 1 of this document, look at what it says.

17        Q.   I'm asking you about that last sentence and about that village.

18     That's what I want to ask you about.

19        A.   No, no, no, no, no.  I cannot answer before you read out

20     officially paragraph 1.  Read out paragraph 1 and then we are going to

21     see how come Andric's forces are in these mentioned areas.  We have to

22     take into account paragraph 1 as the first paragraph that relates to the

23     developments themselves.  Please read out the first paragraph, just as

24     you've asked to have the other one read out.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand your answer.  This document is

Page 42601

 1     already in our evidence.  You can read paragraph -- you can read

 2     paragraph, and if you would like, you can refer to paragraph 1.  Please

 3     answer the question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This has to do with a counterattack

 5     of a unit of the Birac Brigade commanded by Svetozar Andric.  Obviously,

 6     these two mentioned villages were points of resistance of the enemy in

 7     combat operations.  Certainly, that could not have been skipped, if you

 8     look at the terrain, if you look at the forces involved, and if you look

 9     at the task itself.  I'm not justifying the burning of villages as

10     villages, but if a village turns into a point of resistance, from which

11     the enemy opens fire, then unfortunately that village had been abused by

12     the same party that had turned the village into an enemy resistance

13     point.  So my answer is yes, and --

14        Q.   Let's go to --

15        A.   I really don't know why you are interrupting me mid-sentence or

16     mid-word.  I said that the mentioned villages were not a priori supposed

17     to be burned as such.  It was the enemy that was supposed to be expelled

18     from these villages, the enemy.  I repeat:  The enemy.  It's not the

19     people that were the enemy, nor will the people be the enemy, so that is

20     what is stated here.

21        Q.   What is stated here is that this village is burned.  That's

22     right, isn't it?

23        A.   Well, yes, it was burned because that village was used for combat

24     operations launched by the enemy.  They chose to set up positions in the

25     village.  Why didn't they set up their positions in the mountains and why

Page 42602

 1     didn't they remove the population from the combat area --

 2        Q.   Let's look --

 3        A.   This has to do with the clash of two armies, two units.  This is

 4     not an attack of one army against an innocent village.  Let us be clear

 5     on that.  This is a clash of units in combat.  And that clash is

 6     happening through villages, as you can see, and let us be clear on this.

 7     Many villages would be abused, as such, and would suffer terrible damage

 8     and nobody is denying that.

 9             MS. PACK:  Let's go to P03161, please, 03161.  In the B/C/S,

10     please, can we go to the second page.

11        Q.   And on the second page there, it's the second paragraph I want

12     you to look at.  It talks about Gobelji.  I'm going to read out the

13     English, the bottom of the English.

14             "In the course of the day, special units of the 1st Birac Light

15     Infantry Brigade took and destroyed the village of Gobelji, thus freeing

16     up the left flank of the main forces in the attack on Cerska.  At the

17     entry into the village, our soldiers found weapons and other military

18     equipment, as well as food and cattle, which the enemy left behind when

19     fleeing from our forces."

20             They had left.  The enemy had left, and then the village was

21     burned; isn't that right?  All the villagers had been forced out.  And

22     the village was empty.

23        A.   What do you mean expelled, if groups of soldiers and weapons were

24     found?  Expelling is different in military jargon.  That means that the

25     other side is taking part in expulsions.  However, here, you can see that

Page 42603

 1     what was found there were those who had turned the village into a combat

 2     position.  There were people there, there was military equipment,

 3     ammunition, all sorts of things, as you can see.  There is no population

 4     there.  The population had been taken out of there.  So it wasn't that we

 5     expelled the population.  These are two different concepts.

 6        Q.   They didn't need to burn the village, did they?

 7        A.   Well, what was necessary and what was not necessary, that is

 8     debatable.  They cannot pass through that for as long as there is

 9     resistance being put up in that area.  This is a basic military rule.

10     You cannot go through enemy lines with the enemy still firing at you.

11     That's the point, not destroying houses.  I felt that.  It was my own

12     experience that somebody tore down my own house, destroyed my own house.

13     But the point is that fire should not be opened from houses as such.

14     That's the point.

15        Q.   You, General, you ordered the burning and destruction of Muslim

16     villages, didn't you?

17        A.   No --

18        Q.   Can we look at P --

19        A.   -- it was a response to their attack, their attack, described in

20     paragraph 1 of this document and it's the same fight.

21             MS. PACK:  Can we see P5261, please.

22        Q.   Now, this is an intercept dated the 8th of February, 1993, of a

23     conversation between you and Gaborovic, that's Second Lieutenant

24     Slobodan Gaborovic of the 5th Communications Battalion.  You know him,

25     yes?

Page 42604

 1        A.   Yes, I remember the man.

 2        Q.   You talk about talking to a Captain Jevdjevic.  That would be

 3     Milenko Jevdjevic, wouldn't it, commander -- commander of the

 4     5th Communications Battalion; is that right?  Remember him?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, certainly.

 6        Q.   This is a communication you had with Gaborovic on the

 7     8th of February, 1993.  Yes?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I don't know what I spoke about with whom.  We

 9     have to look at what we talked about.  If this coincides with the truth,

10     I will say "yes," but I need to read the text first.  If I'm allowed.

11        Q.   I'm going to read you the bottom five lines just to remind you

12     what you said.

13        A.   That's fair.  Thank you.

14        Q.   You can read it in B/C/S.  You say:

15             "Catch up with them and fuck their mothers now."

16             Answer:  "Understood" --

17        A.   Stop, no.

18        Q.   Excuse me.  Let me -- let me finish reading.  Then you say:

19             "Hold tightly the positions.  Are the Turks' houses burning?"

20             Answer:  "They are burning, they are burning."

21             Question:  "Way to go.  As many as possible."

22             That's you, isn't it?  That's you inciting your units to burn as

23     many Muslim homes as possible; that's right, isn't it?

24        A.   Please, my lady, this ugly word never slipped from my mouth, not

25     even in a barroom, let alone in an official conversation.  I could not

Page 42605

 1     have uttered such an ugly word.  That's one.

 2             Two:  That I incited units to accomplish the task set before

 3     them, of course I did.  That's the main task of a commander.  Not to

 4     commit crimes but to accomplish a mission.  That's the point and that's

 5     my answer.

 6             And besides, these are signalsmen.  This is not my conversation

 7     with the subordinate commander or the superior commander.  This kind of

 8     slang does not hold water.  That I did urge them to reach the lines they

 9     were supposed to reach, to accomplish the missions that were set, of

10     course every commander on the planet would do the same.

11        Q.   "Way to go.  As many as possible."  That's what you said, didn't

12     you?

13        A.   What would make you happy, that I would have said as few as

14     possible and you suffer as many losses as you can?  Just find me one word

15     where I said kill a civilian?  You cannot find that because that would

16     not be me.  And the fact that I was a commander who was --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zivanovic, Ms. Pack didn't ask you whether you

18     ordered to kill somebody.  Her question was whether you ordered to burn

19     the houses.  Do you see the sentence where you said, you heard that they

20     were burning, they were burning.  You asked them:  "Are the Turks' house

21     burning?"  Do you see that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that.  Thank you.

23             Your Honour, do I have to repeat 100 times that these houses were

24     organised as enemy structures to fire at our forces?  This was no longer

25     a house.  It was a multi-storey bunker.  It's a different matter if you

Page 42606

 1     attack at an inhabited house where a family is inside.  But if the owner

 2     has moved out and somebody else came and put up a machine-gun nest there,

 3     covered it with sandbags, that was no longer a house.  That was an enemy

 4     structure.  Unfortunately, that happened by and large.

 5             MS. PACK:  Go to P04253, please.

 6        Q.   The consequence of all this burning, General, was you didn't have

 7     houses to put the Serbian population in once the Muslim population had

 8     left; that's right, isn't it?  Let's look at this order.  I apologise,

 9     it's a report.  I'll repeat my question when you've had a look at this.

10     It's a report from Commander Major Vinko Pandurevic.  It's dated the

11     10th of March, 1993, and it recommends at the bottom of the English and

12     B/C/S, the last sentence, it recommends this:

13             "We propose that houses should not be torched when taking control

14     of Konjevic Polje, but that they be inhabited by people from Tuzla and

15     other areas."

16             Do you see that?

17        A.   I see that.

18        Q.   Now, he's suggesting, isn't he, that his brigade stop burning

19     houses so that they can be inhabited by Serbs; right?

20        A.   In this area, because Konjevic Polje is in a valley, in a

21     depression, there was no fighting, there was no resistance.  That's the

22     point, because Konjevic Polje was not being defended by any forces.  It's

23     simply not a defence position.  And it's logical that the enemy command

24     realised they would unnecessarily only suffer losses there, that it was

25     no use to put up their defences there.  They put them up instead four or

Page 42607

 1     five kilometres away.  And it was the same as in Srebrenica.  And of

 2     course as long as houses were not turned into bunkers, there was no enemy

 3     fire coming from there, et cetera, the houses were not torched.  And it's

 4     true that there were so many homeless people at the same time, and

 5     suddenly you get 15, 20 intact houses that were never in a combat zone.

 6     The houses, I repeat, were never burned unless there was a military

 7     purpose to it, unless they were used for enemy activity.

 8        Q.   That's not the case, is it, General?  "Are the Turks' houses

 9     burning?"  Your units had been deliberately burning villages, hadn't

10     they, deliberately burning villages, pursuant to your orders; right?

11        A.   I repeat for the umpteenth time:  No orders were given to torch

12     houses.  Instead, as you noticed yourself, there were enemy soldiers

13     inside those houses, enemy weapons, enemy equipment.  And if we are

14     talking about houses, just remember my house, shown on the screen

15     recently.  Those were innocent people.  What we are talking about here is

16     a conflict between warring parties.  I repeat for the umpteenth time:

17     Why was not Srebrenica burned?  Why were no other places burned?  Because

18     there was no conflict there.  There was no torching.

19        Q.   I want to look at the various means by which you sought to force

20     the civilian population out of the Podrinje.  Wasn't just through

21     attacking, burning their villages, was it?  You restricted the passage of

22     humanitarian aid; right?

23        A.   I expected you to read that I was proposed for commendation and,

24     indeed, was commended by those people who were responsible for transport

25     of humanitarian aid, instead of being blamed for restricting it.  That is

Page 42608

 1     completely inaccurate.  The accused here today, Mr. Karadzic, urged and

 2     insisted, time and time again, that humanitarian aid be transported to

 3     Srebrenica even at the very high cost to us that was paid.  In

 4     November 1992, Karadzic ordered me to escort a humanitarian convoy

 5     through Bratunac.  I had a very, very hard time convincing the people in

 6     Bratunac that the convoy has to be allowed to pass to the Muslim

 7     population in Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   General --

 9        A.   And I was in a great deal of trouble and even my life was at risk

10     in that operation because I was in danger from all sorts of militaries

11     and non-militaries.

12             MS. PACK:  I'd like to bring up, please, 65 ter 01201.  It's a --

13     would have to be admitted under seal, so I would ask that it is even not

14     shown on the public screens or that we go into private session while we

15     are looking at this.  In fact, we will have to go into private session

16     while we are talking about it.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42609











11  Pages 42609-42611 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42612

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number?

 8             MS. PACK:  Yes, it's 65 ter 09194.  Now, this is an update by

 9     UNHCR, the UN High Commission for Refugees.

10        Q.   And again, I'm afraid, General, it's in English.  I'm going to

11     read the bottom three paragraphs to you:

12             "Despite daily attempts by UNHCR to reach the eastern enclaves,

13     no convoy has been allowed to deliver aid to the town of Gorazde" --

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             MS. PACK:  If I can just read the bottom three paragraphs:

24             "Despite daily attempts by UNHCR to reach the eastern enclaves,

25     no convoy has been allowed to deliver aid to the town of Gorazde since

Page 42613

 1     the 19th of January.  No food has reached Zepa since the 17th of January,

 2     and all convoys into Srebrenica have been banned since the

 3     10th December 1992.  UNHCR has been denied any access at all into the

 4     Cerska/Kamenica area, although Serb forces temporarily opened a one-way

 5     humanitarian corridor allowing people to leave but no aid to enter.

 6             "Nearly 5.000 people have already been forced to flee to Tuzla,

 7     mostly in extremely bad condition, some losing their fingers and toes due

 8     to frostbite.  UNHCR has received unconfirmed reports of another

 9     5.000 people in Srebrenica waiting to come out."

10        Q.   These were -- this was the sort of international condemnation of

11     which you were aware; right?  Condemnation of the blocking of

12     humanitarian aid to these areas.

13        A.   This level of document would not reach my level of command.

14     I repeat again:  We never obstructed any orders issued by the superior

15     command.  We have to make that clear.

16        Q.   You created the one way humanitarian corridor, didn't you, in the

17     Cerska/Kamenica area?

18        A.   No, no, absolutely not.  Please, I had a superior command.  Do

19     not try to portray me as an independent commander who has no superiors,

20     no subordinates, who is working without directives, without orders.  The

21     word "subordination" is the key to the work of all military units, in

22     peacetime and especially in wartime.  God forbid that I should have

23     obstructed anything or prevented any convoys from entering Srebrenica.

24     I put my life at risk so that convoys could reach Srebrenica.  Ask convoy

25     leaders with whom they had the closest cooperation at that time.  From

Page 42614

 1     1992, when I was still covered in bandages and suffered from deep wounds,

 2     with whom did they work best?  Always, I repeat always, I was in favour

 3     of helping the population, aiding the population.  And please don't try

 4     to paint me as this person who prevented convoys from passing through

 5     despite orders being given to the contrary.

 6        Q.   I asked you about this particular corridor that they are talking

 7     about, the one-way humanitarian corridor in Cerska/Kamenica.

 8             MS. PACK:  And before I go on to my next question, I'd ask to

 9     admit this document, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will admit it.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6480, Your Honours.

12             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful.  Just before we leave this topic, I'd

13     like to look, please, at 65 ter 09379.

14        Q.   You controlled access to these areas that you were attacking,

15     didn't you?  Yes?

16        A.   On orders, on orders, nothing at my own initiative, with a clear

17     report provided on what was done according to the orders.  Not taking

18     anything from the convoys.  Never making people's work difficult.  But

19     inspecting the convoys, of course, that was according to the orders we

20     received.  People had to check the trucks and that did not come from me.

21     I did not make that up.  Nor did my superior or subordinate commander,

22     for that matter, make that up.  But that we did invest huge efforts for

23     these convoys to reach the Muslim population, that's true.

24        Q.   That's right.  So you acted under orders, is that what you're

25     saying?  Is that your evidence?  On the topic of blocking humanitarian

Page 42615

 1     aid?

 2        A.   Yes, but I repeat, because we had to inspect the contents, not

 3     that we would not allow the convoy to reach the Muslims.  These are two

 4     different things.  You have to look at the contents of the order sent

 5     from the top down to us subordinates.  You have to see it as a whole.

 6     They never said that we should take the convoy prisoners or the people

 7     who were in it.  Not a word about that.

 8        Q.   Let's just look at this particular corridor that was set up, this

 9     one-way corridor that was set up and is described in this document, one

10     of your combat reports dated the 1st of February, 1993.  And if we just

11     look at the bottom of the page in the English and at page 2, please, in

12     the B/C/S, we are looking at paragraph 3, describing the situation on the

13     territory of the AOR:

14             "The Ustasha leaders have felt that their inhabitants shall move

15     out of Cerska/Srebrenica area and stop being their hostages.  I decided

16     to allow the inhabitants to move the same way and itinerary as previously

17     tomorrow," and so on.

18             And then you say:

19             "It shall be possible to leave the territory for all people

20     without exception and only with my permission."

21             And this is a document that is -- comes from you, doesn't it, the

22     Drina Corps command, and it's signed by you; is that right?  And this is

23     a -- that was nodding your head [overlapping speakers] --

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   And this is a corridor controlled by you through which your

Page 42616

 1     denying humanitarian aid access; is that right?

 2        A.   No, that's not right.  The convoy is being protected and why?

 3     Because this route was threatened by infiltrated elements.  God knows

 4     which.  There were all kinds.  They infiltrated.  Those were such times,

 5     a paramilitary formation, the Muslim or the Serbian one, could block a

 6     truck, take the driver prisoner and take away the whole truck, and I was

 7     responsible for the route.  Why until this hour?  Because it was getting

 8     dark, and during the night such a convoy could not be allowed to move

 9     because that would really be shallow way of commanding on my part, if

10     I was to allow the convoy to travel along such a route regardless of what

11     might befall it.  It could even be destroyed en route.  So how could one

12     justify that?  There were no longer any conditions for such an action to

13     be carried out and the superior gentlemen, I mean my own superior command

14     and the civilian commands and the UNPROFOR and all the other

15     institutions, I have them all in mind, they would have to provide the

16     guarantees so as to make this travel safe for the convoy.

17             That's the essence of the story, because you cannot let a convoy

18     travel during the night.  Come on, people.  Even the lights do not allow

19     a vehicle to move because the light is red and not green, and let alone

20     if you have rifles and the conditions of war and it's night time.  You

21     have to realise all that because you keep reminding me of the situation.

22     You're putting me back into the position where it's not as if you just

23     pressed a button and allowed the convoy to pass or not.  But what we

24     managed to achieve was that the people in the convoy were alive and well,

25     the contents of the convoy were transported to the address, and it was

Page 42617

 1     late but the superior command or God knows who else who was above us

 2     ordered that it had to be inspected.  I had my men who inspected it.

 3     There was a report about what was being transported.  So don't criticise

 4     us by saying we did not allow the convoy to pass.  We needed to create

 5     the conditions for the convoy to move safely.  And after this hour, look

 6     at the calendar, look at the dates, night would fall, and the terrain was

 7     treacherous.  So it wasn't just like that.

 8        Q.   Pause, please.

 9             MS. PACK:  I'd like admit that document, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MS. PACK:

12        Q.   We're going to move to 1994 --

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6481, Your Honours.

14             MS. PACK:

15        Q.   I want to look further at the task you were implementing, the

16     task under directive 4 that were you implementing, the task to create

17     conditions to force the Muslim population out of the Podrinje area.  That

18     task.  1994.

19             MS. PACK:  Can we look at P04075, please?

20        Q.   Now you can see on the screen this is a report from

21     Slavko Ognjenovic, who then was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade.

22     It's dated 4th July 1994, and I want you, please, to look at paragraph 1.

23     He is writing this report, as you can see, for his brigade following a

24     briefing at the Drina Corps, the Drina Corps command, in Vlasenica, and

25     this was a briefing that was attended by Mladic.

Page 42618

 1             Now, you, General, you, Ognjenovic and other Drina Corps brigade

 2     commanders, you were all present at that meeting on the 1st July 1994?

 3        A.   It's probably so.  If the memo is signed, then it's certainly so.

 4        Q.   You'd agree you were at the meeting.  Let's just see what

 5     Ognjenovic says.  Consequent upon it.

 6             MS. PACK:  Page 2 in the English, please, and 2 in the B/C/S.

 7     It's 2 going to 3 quite soon in the English and 2 in the B/C/S, please.

 8        Q.   Now, this is the report being written as a result of that

 9     meeting.  And it says:

10             "We have won the war in Podrinje but we have not beaten the

11     Muslims completely, which is what we must do in the next period.  We must

12     attain our final goal, an entirely Serbian Podrinje.  The enclaves of

13     Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde must be defeated militarily.  We must

14     continue to arm, train, discipline, and prepare the RS army for the

15     execution of this crucial task, the expulsion of Muslims from the

16     Srebrenica enclave.  There will be no retreat when it comes to the

17     Srebrenica enclave.  We must advance.  The enemy's life has to be made

18     unbearable and their temporary stay in the enclave impossible so that

19     they leave the enclave en masse as soon as possible, realising that they

20     cannot survive there."

21             Now, Ognjenovic there is repeating the order, isn't he, which

22     Mladic gave at the briefing which you attended in Vlasenica on the 1st of

23     July; right?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  But it's not quite as you just read it out.  You

25     passed lightly over the place where he says that they have to be defeated

Page 42619

 1     militarily.  Defeated militarily.  We were warring parties.  Or a third

 2     side at Dayton, which I believe should have been organised in 1992 rather

 3     than 1995, where somebody else tells us:  Stop, the war is over and now

 4     the judge begins to judge.  However, it says here defeated militarily.

 5             And as Ognjenovic -- let me paint the picture for you.  As

 6     Ognjenovic was politically educated, he allowed himself a lot of epic

 7     sweep in his report, and eventually that was why he was removed from his

 8     position in that brigade.  Don't use that against me.  I don't think it's

 9     necessary for me to analyse Ognjenovic.  But it's logical while you are

10     at war, and as long as someone is shooting at you, or threatening to

11     launch an attack on you, you will make efforts to try and prevent that.

12             You know quite well that at this time the ostensibly protected

13     enclave was growing to the size of a division, and a division, as a

14     notion in the army, denotes something huge.  And that was created in a

15     protected enclave.  You should have also read out to me what weaponry the

16     Muslim side was requesting from Tuzla, so it would be easier for you to

17     read out to me what you have.  They requested so much weapons that they

18     would have been able to kill everybody all the way up to Belgrade.  There

19     are documents testifying to that.

20             Let us not extract things from documents like you extract teeth

21     from somebody's jaws.  There was a latent danger for us to disappear

22     officially when the 28th Division was to launch an attack against our

23     positions, together with Gorazde, together with Sarajevo, together with

24     Zepa, together with Tuzla, and what was I supposed to do?  To let them to

25     kill us all to the last one?  I don't know who you would be asking these

Page 42620

 1     questions then.  Thank you.  That was the answer.

 2        Q.   What -- I'm not clear what your answer is.  The enemy's life has

 3     to be made unbearable and their temporary stay in the enclave impossible

 4     so that they leave the enclave en masse as soon as possible, realising

 5     that they cannot survive there.  I've got to ask a question.

 6        A.   Uh-huh.

 7        Q.   Now, that was the order that Mladic gave on the 1st July at the

 8     briefing in Vlasenica; right?

 9        A.   Look, this is not an order.  Please.  It's not an order.  The

10     order begins under item 4, where he says:  I have decided.  Everything

11     else is just talks, agreements, preparations for orders and so on.  An

12     order has its framework.  It has its whole.  It has its contents and

13     clear instructions stating who should be doing what.  That's an order.

14        Q.   Your aim was to create conditions for the enclaves to disappear;

15     right?  That was your aim.

16        A.   And was the aim for anything Serbian to disappear in Podrinje,

17     the aim of the enemy side?  Wasn't that the aim of the enemy side, that

18     everything that was Serbian in Podrinje should vanish?  Or did they have

19     some other aim?  Please, let us be human.  Was the aim -- I'll repeat for

20     the third time, was the aim of the enemy side that everything that is

21     Serbian should disappear from Podrinje?  That was their aim.  Our aim was

22     to survive, and we have survived.  And they are survived too.

23        Q.   Your aim was to make life unbearable for them, unbearable so they

24     couldn't survive, so they would have to leave; right?

25        A.   Well, they have destroyed my life and I preserved theirs.  Will

Page 42621

 1     you understand that we could have destroyed these lives with our weapons?

 2     If we were some sort of butchers, we could have destroyed, cut off their

 3     lives as they destroyed mine.  Did they leave anyone alive?

 4        Q.   You wrote a diary as commander of the Drina Corps, didn't you,

 5     and that diary was seized from your home in October 2009 and is now in

 6     possession of the Office of the Prosecutor?  That's right, it was seized

 7     from your home, you remember that, in October 2009?

 8        A.   I remember.  I remember a very unpleasant -- not 2009.  It was

 9     the 16th of July, 2010.  I suppose I know when they attacked me.

10        Q.   It was seized by the MUP.  And I'm going to ask you now to look

11     at the diary for 1994, which is 65 ter 21899A, please.  I'm going to ask

12     you to look at an extract from one of your diaries, notebooks.  This is

13     the extract for the 1 July 1994 meeting with Mladic and Ognjenovic.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You recognise it?

16        A.   Yes, yes.  Only you didn't let me say in what way this personal

17     document of mine reached you.  You should have allowed me to clarify that

18     in half a minute.

19        Q.   I'm going to ask you about this entry on the 1st July 1994.  I'd

20     like you to take a look at it, please.  You'd agree these are the notes

21     of your briefing at the Drina Corps in Vlasenica?  Yes?  The command?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   You made those notes at the time?

24        A.   Yes, just like any officer keeps notes.  That was how I kept

25     mine.

Page 42622

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask to ask the witness to

 2     read it out aloud because it's not well translated.  It's not a great

 3     error, it's not crucial, but it's not correct.

 4             MS. PACK:  One moment, please.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The penultimate sentence above the

 6     eyes.

 7             MS. PACK:  Mr. President, I'm going to take the witness to

 8     various sections of it.  It will take a while to go through the whole

 9     lot, so we can leave the first page.

10        Q.   Just to note that this is General Mladic talking, right?  Where

11     you see his name there, you're noting down what he says?  Yes?  Is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] -- you can read -- perhaps just read

15     what --

16        A.   Should I read it?  May I?

17        Q.   Yes, go ahead.  Read what he says under what he says.

18        A.   Keep your eyes peeled, what does that mean?  Literally it's keep

19     your six eyes open because a --

20        Q.   Can you pause there --

21        A.   -- man has two eyes, you should keep vigilant because the danger

22     is great.

23        Q.   Pause, please.  What we don't want it is to have you interpreting

24     what was said because we are just trying to see what is written on the

25     page.  It may be that I should read it in English.

Page 42623

 1             MS. PACK:  Now, let's go to the following page, please, at

 2     page 2.  I'm going to read that in English.  It continues to be what

 3     Mladic is saying --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Pack --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But you didn't let me -- you didn't

 6     allow --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  -- could you take note of what the reporter was

 8     saying?  Shall we continue?  The question will be coming, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MS. PACK:  I'm going to read slowly from this:

10             "Keynote address and guidelines for reporting.  Report openly and

11     as it is.  I won't praise you too much.  You did a lot.  We are on our

12     way to clean the enclaves."

13        Q.   You noted there what Mladic said to you at the briefing in

14     Vlasenica on the 1st July.  Yes?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And let us go, please, to the following page.  I'm going to keep

17     to the notes of what Mladic has said.  There is a note in a box at the

18     bottom of the page:

19             "General Mladic, do not let the convoys pass to Tuzla for the

20     time being."

21             That's another note of what Mladic said, yes?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   And the following page --

24        A.   May I explain this?  May I clarify it?

25        Q.   We'll deal with it at the end.  I'm just going to go through the

Page 42624

 1     entry.

 2        A.   Thank you.

 3        Q.   Page 4, please, just so we get the order.  I'm not going to read

 4     this out.  More from Mladic, Krstic, Mladic again.  And to the following

 5     page, 5, please.

 6             "Mladic:  Detailed control of convoys.  Fight even with UNPROFOR.

 7     Cut through the area" --

 8        A.   I can't see it.  I can't see that.

 9        Q.   My apologies, let's just take it up.  It's halfway down the page

10     under the -- looks like it's under the line that you've drawn.  And you

11     can see Mladic --

12        A.   Thank you.  Thank you.  I can see it now.

13        Q.   Just to take it up:

14             "Cut through the area around the road."

15             And then the next bit we can go over as I'm reading:

16             "The enclave is not to survive but to disappear."

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection.  It is

18     absolutely unacceptable for the Defence to make this sort of salad of

19     words.  It's not to "cut" but "cut through."  It means to cut the forest.

20     Nothing is translated correctly.  And especially so many words are

21     listed --

22             MS. PACK:  Mr. President, I object -- I object to this sort of

23     intervention [overlapping speakers] --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I request that the witness be

25     allowed to respond to a single sentence each time and not such a

Page 42625

 1     selection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No, she is asking -- she has come to the passage

 3     where it says:  "The enclave is not to survive but to disappear."

 4     I think she was coming to that.

 5             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes.  And let's just

 6     continue one further extract and then I'm done with reading.

 7             You can see Ognjenovic, there is a line, perhaps he says

 8     something, then we have Mladic again.

 9             "The enclaves are air landing facilities.  The war has not even

10     started, let alone that it has completed.  Reduce the enclave," and so it

11     goes on.  And that's the end of my reading of that portion of this entry

12     although I will be taking it up further in a moment.

13        Q.   So let's just pause at this language that you note down, that

14     Mladic uses:

15             "We are on the way to clean the enclave.  The enclave is not to

16     survive but to disappear."

17             My question to you, General, this was your preoccupation in the

18     Drina Corps, wasn't it, creating conditions so that the civilian

19     population would leave, by this time leave the enclaves; isn't that

20     right?

21        A.   Well, it was much better for him to go to the areas outside of

22     the combat zone than to be within such a zone where there were no

23     conditions for life because Srebrenica was too crowded with refugees who

24     had gone there after our offensive in the spring 1993.  They did not

25     accept a peaceful solution.  I offered it and I wanted to tell you about

Page 42626

 1     it here today but you cut me off.  And you must notice here that it says

 2     that those protected enclaves are turning into areas for launching air

 3     raids.  So the elementary knowledge of us soldiers would imply we know

 4     quite well what an air raid area means, and having in mind that in the

 5     same area powerful military formations were being prepared, I don't know

 6     what a command in a situation of war would say then not to allow the

 7     creation for air raids from such an area.  It shouldn't be allowed to be

 8     used for that.  And the population such as the Serbian population would

 9     flee to Serbia and wherever they were fortunate enough to escape.

10             So what was meant here was that their population should simply

11     leave the area, which was very unfavourable for life.  That's what it

12     was.  They did not have a single hectare of arable land.  Not a single

13     factory was operational.  I personally made efforts for them to get

14     water.  Why don't you read out that sentence to me?  I did that

15     personally, myself.  I made sure that people had water.  Because I know

16     quite well how much and what exactly that means.  And to have people

17     around yourself as a sort of mask and keep setting up a division all the

18     while, somehow I cannot take that indifferently.

19             Yes, people should be removed, always.  Why not?  Remove the

20     civilian population from the area where war is being waged.  That's the

21     most painless thing.  The idea is not that the population should be

22     removed in the way that it should be killed, no, not that, not that, but

23     that they would be saved.  And that's the end of my answer.

24        Q.   So this is what you say, what was meant here was that - let me

25     just repeat your words - "the population should simply leave the area,

Page 42627

 1     which was very unfavourable for life."  It was unfavourable for life,

 2     General, wasn't it, because of the conditions created by you.  Yes?

 3        A.   What do you mean we created it?  You forgot the map that we

 4     showed at the beginning of my testimony here.  How can you say that?

 5     What about the 157 torched Serbian villages?  You are too clever to

 6     forget this so fast.  Where are theses villages?  Please, sit in a

 7     helicopter and make a tour of this area and you can find the burned

 8     foundations of these villages where life is not continuing as it was even

 9     to this day.  That's the substance.

10             MS. PACK:  Your Honour --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue tomorrow?

12             MS. PACK:  Yes, I'm aware of the time.  Perhaps --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I just have to add one

14     sentence.  We never come to say that an armed formation of the

15     28th Muslim Division used their own people as a mask for tears and I

16     don't know what.  I'm not -- I haven't managed to achieve that all Serbs

17     would return to their destroyed villages to this day, 20 years later, let

18     alone having all these people pushed into an enclave and then have a big

19     problem.  It seemed to be a problem to everyone except for the Muslim

20     armed formations.

21             That's what it was.  Do you know that personally they wrote to me

22     in the midst of the war and beseeched me to come and command them and

23     come to save them?  Why don't you read such a letter to me?  You do have

24     it.  You do.  Finished.

25             MS. PACK:  Your Honour --

Page 42628

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zivanovic, you said you kept that map in your

 2     office.  Did you hang that on the wall of your office?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes, on the wall.  Your Honours, on the wall.

 4     On the wall.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So what's the point of hanging that map on your

 6     wall?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the circles, the

 8     squares, the rectangles, the rhomboids, the intentions of the enemy

 9     command were discovered, the axis of attack, taking of vital facilities,

10     economic and topographic ones, because there was always a threat, a

11     danger that the hydroelectric power plant at Bajina Basta would be

12     destroyed and that a lake of poisoned water from zinc and lead mines in

13     Sase would also be destroyed, where fish all the way to the Black Sea

14     would be exterminated.  So these were the vital facilities that we had to

15     save.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Pack, unless you have some urgent matters, shall

17     we adjourn here?

18             MS. PACK:  Yes.  Would you prefer, Mr. President, to deal with

19     the question of admission of this extract tomorrow?  Simply I would be

20     asking for admission but perhaps tomorrow --

21             JUDGE KWON:  There should be no opposition.  We will admit it.

22             MS. PACK:  I'm grateful.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6482, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Before we adjourn today the Chamber will issue an

25     oral ruling on the Prosecution motion to exclude in part evidence of

Page 42629

 1     Witness Miroslav Toholj filed on 22nd October 2013, as well as on the

 2     Prosecution request for leave to reply to Karadzic's response filed on

 3     the 29th of October, 2013.

 4             The Prosecution requests that a number of paragraphs be excluded

 5     from the statement of Miroslav Toholj sought to be tendered pursuant to

 6     Rule 92 ter on the basis that they are irrelevant to the charges in the

 7     indictment.  The accused filed his response on the 28th of October

 8     opposing the motion.

 9             The Chamber has reviewed the submissions and examined the

10     statement.  It is of the view that paragraphs 5, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 18,

11     21, the first two sentences of paragraph 27, paragraphs 32, 35, 46, 47,

12     the last two sentence of paragraph 56, paragraphs 57, 58, 59 in its

13     entirety, 68, 69 and 70 should be excluded as they go into the detail of

14     areas not relevant to the charges in the indictment.  However, the

15     Chamber is of the view that paragraphs 11, 12, 19, and 20, may remain as

16     they may be of some relevance.

17             The Chamber therefore grants the motion in part, orders the

18     exclusion of the paragraphs identified earlier, including, proprio motu,

19     the exclusion of paragraph 59 in its entirety, allows the accused to

20     tender the remainder of Toholj's statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter and

21     denies the Prosecution request for leave to reply.

22             Mr. Zivanovic, we will adjourn for today and continue tomorrow

23     morning at 9.00.  I'd like to advise you not to discuss with anybody else

24     about your testimony while you are giving your evidence here at the

25     Tribunal.  Hearing is adjourned.

Page 42630

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you for your

 2     advice.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of

 5                           October, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.