Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42731

 1                           Friday, 1 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May

 9     I introduce Ms. Svitlana Tsukanova, who is from the Ukraine, has an LLM

10     from Radboud University, Nijmegen, in European Union law and

11     international law.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Good morning, Mr. Harvey.  You're not

13     hiding anymore from my eyesight.  Sorry, I meant Mr. Tieger.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, can you see Mr. Kovac without any difficulty

15     in terms of your eye sight?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency.  Thank you.

17     Mr. Lazarevic was very kind to take care of that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. Nicholls, please

19     continue.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

21                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV KOVAC [Resumed]

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

23        Q.   Okay.  I don't want to spend a lot of time on it because it's in

24     your statement at paragraphs 111 to 113.  Actually, would you mind

25     putting your statement down or turning it over.  I would like you to ask

Page 42732

 1     me when you need to refer to it to refresh your memory.

 2             In other words, could you just not use your statement unless you

 3     ask me first.

 4             You can refer to it now, if you want, but after that, please put

 5     it down.

 6             I'm talking about the 10 July order, P02992.  Putting the

 7     RS MUP --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure Mr. Kovac understood what you said.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kovac, you don't need to rely on your statement

11     in answering Mr. Nicholls's question.  When you need to -- when you would

12     to read your statement, the Chamber would allow you to do so at any time.

13     Let's continue.  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  If I may assist my learned colleague, paragraph

15     119 of Mr. Kovac's statement does not refer to this.  It's something

16     completely different, so maybe this could resolve this confusion.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:

18        Q.   I'm sorry, 111 to 113, that's what I'm talking about.  But you

19     don't need to read it.  I'm asking you about RS MUP order 6495.  We can

20     bring it up, P02992.  Now, you've talked about this in your statement,

21     I don't want to go over your explanation again.  What I want to ask you

22     about is your prior testimony about this document.

23             This is from your testimony in the Medic case at page 52 in

24     English, B/C/S page 39.  Asked about this document, you said, "I left

25     this area," as you say in your statement here, "but the president of the

Page 42733

 1     republic directly called Karisik, my deputy, and Borovcanin and dictated

 2     to them this order."  Do you stand by that testimony you gave in the

 3     state court?

 4        A.   I do but I wish to clarify.  I don't know that I said that

 5     President Karadzic had called Karisik and Borovcanin.  He issued the

 6     order which was in keeping with his constitutional powers.  And it was

 7     forwarded to the MUP institution where Karisik and Borovcanin were.

 8     That's true.

 9        Q.   One moment.  All right.  Let's just bring up your testimony.

10     65 ter 25514, in your language should be page 39.  I'll read out from the

11     English again.

12             "I left this area, but the president of the republic directly

13     called Karisik, my deputy, and Borovcanin and dictated to them this

14     order."

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's locate the passage.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  It should be -- if that is the correct page --

17     I can't find it in the Cyrillic, I'm sorry, but that's the correct page

18     and it's above where we see item 4 at the bottom.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see the passage, Mr. Kovac?

20             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

21             MR. NICHOLLS:

22        Q.   Wait.  Wait.  Do you see the passage?  Have you found the part

23     I read out?  That's the question:  Have you found it and read it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Of course it indicates the passage.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

Page 42734

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:

 2        Q.   Okay.  Did you say that in this trial, as recorded there?

 3        A.   I don't think this was recorded precisely but I will testify

 4     today how it was, that the essence is the same, the order was passed on.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I understand that.  I'm just asking you, this is a

 6     recording of your prior testimony, if you stand by that sworn testimony,

 7     or if you have something different to say in the sworn testimony today?

 8        A.   I'm not saying any different today.  I said at the beginning when

 9     you asked me whether I stand by my statements, I do.  About this

10     formulation, I don't know what you want.  The essence is the same.  It's

11     just the formulation.  The president issued the order in writing.

12        Q.   [Microphone not activated] I'm not asking you that.  I know that.

13     I'm asking you if you said that under oath, what is recorded there by

14     their recording equipment.

15        A.   I don't know.  I'm not sure that this was recorded exactly word

16     for word, but the essence is the same.  It's clear.  It's clear that the

17     president issued the order to Karisik and Borovcanin at the MUP.

18     I wasn't there.  I don't know what you want to draw from this.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let me tell you what your deputy, Karisik, testified about

20     this order and this claim of yours just a few months ago on 27 June in

21     this courtroom.  I read out precise -- first of all, this is at T40605 to

22     40606, lines 15 to 20 on those pages.

23             First of all, he said that when he met with President Karadzic on

24     10 July, he didn't know or discuss the order, and I read out to him your

25     testimony that I've just read out to you precisely and asked if that

Page 42735

 1     helped him remember that you say it was he who was involved in this

 2     order.  And he said, No, no, I refute Tomo Kovac's statement.  I think he

 3     got confused there.  It's possible that the president ordered someone,

 4     and goes on, and then says, I was dealing with Sarajevo.  I was not

 5     there.  I was dealing with Sarajevo.  As for the problems concerning

 6     Srebrenica, it's only Mr. Kovac who can speak about that, so you can ask

 7     him when he comes.  I deny this.

 8             So both you and your subordinate Karisik are running from any

 9     involvement in the passage of this order; right?

10        A.   I would not accept your assertion about evasion.  In all my

11     earlier statements and interactions with you and the

12     Office of the Prosecutor, I did not act like that, but let us clarify.

13     You are not allowing me now, and you did not allow me earlier, to state

14     clearly what happened here in essence.  President Karadzic issued an

15     order, passed it on to the MUP institution.  At the MUP, Borovcanin

16     received the order through MUP services.  As for Karisik, I don't know

17     whether he saw it the first or the second day, whether he passed it on.

18     As my deputy, he had insight into it, I cannot go into that, but that

19     order was issued in keep with the law, and it had to be followed.  The

20     fact that I wasn't there and what my motivations were changes nothing to

21     the execution of this order and that's perfectly clear.

22        Q.   That's not my question.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let me help you.  Mr. Kovac, according to your

24     testimony in the Medic case, it's recorded you said that Mr. Karadzic

25     called Karisik directly and issued this order.

Page 42736

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly now all

 2     these details, but as far as I recollect, and even this order that was

 3     given, you have original documents, I don't know why you didn't provide

 4     original documents.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kovac, let me ask you again.  But you said today

 6     that the essence was the same.  So do you agree that Mr. Karadzic issued

 7     that order directly to Mr. Karisik?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't have any reason to issue

 9     the order directly to Karisik, he issued it to the institution, and he

10     gave this order to the MUP.  Who actually received it and how they passed

11     it on is technical matter.  Now, to give different explanation 20 years

12     on, I can't.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honour.

15        Q.   This isn't 20 years on.  This is your testimony from 2006, and at

16     that point you said it was issued directly to Karisik.  And I am not

17     asking you about the way orders are issued, I'm pointing out to you your

18     testimony now, if we listen to what you say today, your testimony in the

19     prior case wasn't true, was it?  You don't stand by it.  You just make it

20     up when you were testifying in the state court.

21        A.   I do not accept that I made anything up.  At that time Karisik

22     was my deputy Staff Commander and he could have accepted it.  Even

23     I myself didn't know who passed the order on until I saw documents in

24     The Hague.  I thought at that time it was Karisik but it was a different

25     member of the staff, as I learned later, who received the document and

Page 42737

 1     passed it on.  I saw the original document after I testified the first

 2     time, and I saw it here at The Hague Tribunal.

 3        Q.   And it was signed by another member of the command staff; right?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, you'll agree with me that at least 12 members of

 6     those MUP forces put into the Srebrenica theatre by the order we have

 7     just been talking about have been convicted of murders at Kravica,

 8     Sandici, three days later; right?  Three days after this order was

 9     issued.

10        A.   Probably.  I don't know what you are driving at.

11        Q.   You testified in their trials.  Probably?  Can I have P06378.

12        A.   Yes, I did, but -- yes, I did, but --

13        Q.   While we are waiting for that to come up, are you aware that

14     Goran Saric has recently been indicted for murders at Kravica, Sandici

15     and Cerska for genocide?  Goran Saric is Special Police commander.

16        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   That's one in a series of indictments brought by default.  I

19     don't know what you want to put to me with this indictment against Saric.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, then just -- just listen a minute.  The reason was I

21     asked you if people who had been put into the combat zone pursuant to

22     this order had been convicted of crimes they committed three days

23     later --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are overlapping.  Kindly pause

25     between questions and answer.  Thank you.

Page 42738

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  My apologies.

 2        Q.   At Kravica and Sandici.  Just look at it quickly.  You know that

 3     men put into combat by this order committed crimes, have been convicted

 4     of committing crimes, genocide, three days later; right?

 5        A.   That is completely inaccurate.  You are changing everything.

 6     Those people were convicted because the people who commanded them on the

 7     ground did it badly.  It's not true that they were indicted because of

 8     this order.  The order was issued in keeping with the law.

 9        Q.   That's not my question and I'll move on.

10             All right.  I'm moving on to 12 July and some of the things you

11     start doing in relation to the Srebrenica operation.  You recall -- could

12     I just quickly have P02995.  And this you'll remember it, it's your

13     12 July 1995 order, type signed by you, forwarding President Karadzic's

14     order to establish the police station in Srebrenica and some other

15     points.  Can we go to the second page for Mr. Kovac in the Serbian.  So

16     you sent this order; right?  This is your order?

17        A.   Yes.  Officially it's signed Tomislav Kovac, but why don't you

18     produce the original document?  I didn't sign this document.  I'm not

19     questioning the lawfulness of this document, but I didn't sign it.  It's

20     not a copy, but it's a totally different typed document.  If you find the

21     original you will see that I did not sign it, but I'm not questioning the

22     lawfulness of this.  I'm not questioning anything from this order.

23        Q.   Right.  My only point is -- and we don't need to go through the

24     order.  Is this -- I know this is not a signed copy but you forwarded

25     this order from Mr. Karadzic on the 12th of July; right?

Page 42739

 1        A.   No.  I did not forward it.  My services forwarded it, somebody

 2     from the ministry.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I'll try to be clear.  When I say "you," I don't mean you

 4     personally operating the teleprinter, I mean it is type signed by you as

 5     Staff Commander.  As deputy minister, rather.  Okay.  And --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, please go on, Mr. Kovac.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct that it's written

 8     deputy minister, but I'm saying once again that I didn't sign this, which

 9     means it didn't pass through my hands.  But I'm not questioning the

10     lawfulness or anything from this document.  There is nothing there that

11     is contrary to the law.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:

13        Q.   Okay.  This is taking longer than I want.  Do you agree that this

14     came from your office with your knowledge?

15        A.   It went out of my office but not with my knowledge because

16     physically I wasn't there when this was forwarded.

17        Q.   Okay.  In your 2003 interview, which is 65 ter 22146, with the

18     Office of the Prosecutor of The Hague, at pages 83 to 84 of the English

19     and 90 to 91 of the Serbian, you said, in answer to the question:

20             "What happened on the 12th?

21             "Tomo Kovac:  Okay.  On the 12th, I remember there was an

22     overload of dispatches, and so on, and on that day we also received the

23     order from the president, Radovan Karadzic, on forming of the police

24     station, and I believe we have taken certain steps to -- this is the

25     order I would like to comment on."

Page 42740

 1             The investigator says:

 2             "Go ahead.  The order is -- just for the record, the order is

 3     KP 1407/95.  That's the order we have as ERN 01134170, the same one

 4     I just showed you."

 5             And you say:

 6             "Okay, what I want to say is what you can notice just looking at

 7     the form in the way this has been composed because it's come from my

 8     office with my knowledge, as opposed to the office which -- as opposed to

 9     the order which was issued, you know, outside the office and without my

10     knowledge."

11             And then you go on to talk about how you can tell it's authentic.

12             So, in 2003, when you were telling us the truth you said it came

13     from your office with your knowledge, why are you giving a different

14     answer when I ask you exactly the same question today?

15        A.   I'm not giving you a different answer.  I said we received at my

16     office more than one of these documents, and after this, I managed to get

17     ahold of some documents where you will see again that I did not sign this

18     one because I wasn't physically there.  When I said "we received,"

19     I meant the ministry.  We received several documents.  And I clearly

20     pointed out that this document passed through the protocol of the

21     minister's office.

22        Q.   Okay.  Stop.

23        A.   But --

24        Q.   Stop.  Because I don't want to take the time to try to have to

25     impeach you on every single question I ask you, but my question to you

Page 42741

 1     was not about the process, my question was I read out exactly the same

 2     language from the interview that this came from your office with your

 3     knowledge.  And you said, no.  Then I show you your interview where you

 4     say, It came from the office with my knowledge, in response to a

 5     non-leading question, and now you're telling me those answers are the

 6     same.

 7        A.   Well, I believe my answers are completely the same and all the

 8     essence of all these events in my explanations in these documents changes

 9     nothing to the problem of Srebrenica and the engagement of MUP forces.

10        Q.   Yeah, well, I'd ask you to use -- try to be a little more precise

11     because you keep going back to these broad topics when I ask you about

12     things you've said.  And you think your answers are completely the same.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have the correct page which says that that

14     order came from his office with his knowledge?  Where is it?  Yes,

15     Mr. Kovac?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's unclear to me

17     too.  Since the original -- since the Tribunal has the original

18     documents, why does the Prosecutor not come up with the original

19     documents now?  Because at that time --

20             JUDGE KWON:  That's not important.  You talked to the

21     investigator that that order came out -- was issued with your knowledge

22     and now you deny it.  So I want -- the Chamber just wants to know what's

23     the truth, whether we have the original or not.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain why I'm asking for

25     the originals.  In the originals one can see exactly who signed what, and

Page 42742

 1     there is no dilemma there, who stands by which document.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:

 3        Q.   I didn't ask you one question about your signature.  I've not

 4     asked you one question about your signature in my cross-examination.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'll move on, I think.  Okay.  Can we

 6     look at P02996 quickly.

 7        Q.   What this is, it's from Dragomir Vasic, the Zvornik CJB chief.

 8     It's a reply to the dispatch we just looked at and talked about for a

 9     while about whether it went with your knowledge or not.  And it says,

10     acting -- it says RE dispatch number KP/-1-407/95 of 12 July 1995, the

11     one we just looked at:  Acting in accordance with your dispatch,

12     I contacted the civilian commissioner in Bratunac, Miroslav Deronjic.

13     And as you -- as you requested in Mr. Karadzic's order, and then he

14     discusses the meeting he had.  So you are on 12 July forwarding

15     Karadzic's order which says to establish co-operation with Deronjic and

16     ask for reports on the situation and you're getting them the same day;

17     right?  Reports from your subordinate, Vasic.

18        A.   No.  We were not interested in Deronjic's activity.  As far as I

19     can see -- well, we didn't even write this dispatch.  We say that this

20     has to do with contact with Deronjic in relation to the establishment of

21     the station, and we did not need any reports about Deronjic's activity in

22     the Ministry of the Interior.

23        Q.   I don't know if there is a communication problem.  I was saying

24     Vasic is reporting to you.  One of the things he's reporting is that he

25     established contact with Miroslav Deronjic which was part of your order

Page 42743

 1     that we just looked at.  Vasic is reporting to you about what Vasic is

 2     doing; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  But skillfully, very skillfully, you've been moving towards

 4     me, not only today but for ten years now, to have me confirm that the

 5     ministry is linked to Deronjic and his activities.  And you said once

 6     that we were receiving reports about Deronjic's activities.  I said that

 7     that is not correct and that is not within our purview and we were not

 8     interested.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 24, that's the

11     misunderstanding, [In English] Deronjic asked for the reports.

12     [Interpretation] It turns out that the reports were sought from Deronjic.

13     And then when we receive a translation of that, it sounds even more like

14     that -- like it's Deronjic who is supposed to provide these reports.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:

16        Q.   Well, it says "Reports from your subordinate, Vasic," on line 25.

17     So I don't think it was that unclear.  And Mr. Vasic reports to you -

18     forget about Deronjic for a minute - about a meeting with Mladic and

19     Krstic.  In number 4 we get to the establishment of the police station.

20     In point 5 that a meeting will begin at 10.00 in the morning.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could you check with the witness whether he can read

22     the document.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   Can you read the document, Mr. Kovac?  Do you need it blown up?

25        A.   [Indiscernible]

Page 42744

 1        Q.   I have a hard copy, if you want one.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that would be more convenient.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   That a meeting will begin at 10.00 with representatives of

 5     UNPROFOR, that already a hundred trailer trucks have been provided for

 6     transport.  And number 6, joint police forces are advancing on Potocari

 7     with the aim of taking UNPROFOR personnel prisoner, surrounding the

 8     entire population, and clearing the terrain of enemy groups.  Number 8,

 9     you'll be promptly informed of all further facts and developments.

10             So my very simple question is in -- again in response to the

11     order we just saw you sending out, Mr. Karadzic's order and your order,

12     you're getting reports right away from Mr. Vasic; right?

13        A.   No.  I mean, I'm receiving -- I mean, he's sending reports about

14     overall activities.  One order was sent to him about setting up the

15     police station, which is within our purview.  This other part doesn't

16     have to do with our purview.  He could have informed us.  We just asked

17     him to do one thing and that had to do with the establishment of the

18     police station in Srebrenica.  All the rest does not fall within the

19     purview of the MUP, within the powers of the MUP.

20        Q.   My question was:  Vasic is reporting to you.  I didn't ask you

21     again about the power or purview of the MUP, it's that Vasic is reporting

22     to you in response to your order.  Part of your order was establish

23     contact with Deronjic, he's responding that he has; part of your order

24     was about the police station, he's responding; and he's explaining to

25     you, as you say, what is happening in Srebrenica on the ground; right?

Page 42745

 1        A.   No, no.  The establishment of the station, yes, but this is far

 2     wider reporting about the activities of Mladic, UNPROFOR, Deronjic.  And

 3     that doesn't have to do with our purview, our order, or --

 4        Q.   Stop.  I think -- it's hard to believe you can't understand these

 5     questions since you made it to minister of the interior when were you

 6     under 40.  Vasic is reporting to you on the situation on the ground.

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8        Q.   There is no part of my question that is about the purview of the

 9     MUP.

10        A.   Please.  There is no reason for you -- I mean, I've spent a lot

11     of time with you.  There is no reason for you to say that I don't

12     understand about what came from the MUP.  I mean, I do not have the

13     characteristics of a retard, as you've been putting it.  I have this

14     attitude towards you because for ten years now you've been trying to

15     impute things to us, to the MUP, lawfully and unlawfully, to involve us

16     in this, and you're not going to be successful.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand if we use-- why we waste a lot of

18     time for this.  Could you make your question a bit simpler?  Mr. Kovac,

19     do you agree that the MUP at the time received this Vasic's report?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the MUP received the report.

21     The MUP has to receive it.  If it was sent electronically, it has to be

22     received.  That is not being contested.  What is being contested --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kovac, your answer could be either yes or no, so

24     your answer is yes.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 42746

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue, Mr. Nicholls.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, thank you.

 3        Q.   And I'm going to skip ahead, but you may recall you got

 4     another -- that another report was sent to the MUP from Vasic after the

 5     meeting which General Mladic and UNPROFOR --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly speak into the microphone, please.

 7     Thank you.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:

 9        Q.   UNPROFOR and some of the Muslims from Potocari.  And I'd like to

10     now look at P04934.  This is again 12th July.  It is type signed by you

11     as Staff Commander.  It's from the RS MUP police force staff Pale.  It's

12     an order:  In order to take over urgent tasks of mopping up the terrain

13     in the Srebrenica sector, I hereby, 1, urgently dispatch all available

14     guide dogs, guides with police dogs, to Srebrenica sector; 2, upon

15     arrival, in Srebrenica contact Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy commander, who

16     commands the police forces in Srebrenica and make arrangements on what to

17     do next.  This order is sent from the MUP staff on the 12th; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   It is sending additional police troops to Srebrenica; right?

20        A.   Obviously that can be seen from this, yes.

21        Q.   It is an order to take over urgent tasks of mopping up the

22     terrain; right?

23        A.   Probably such a request was received.  Now, what they did on the

24     ground is for the military and for Ljubisa Borovcanin.

25        Q.   My point is, yesterday, and in your statement, you say that the

Page 42747

 1     MUP was requested to come in just for show so that the Supreme Commander

 2     could get some credit for Srebrenica.  Yesterday, when I asked you about

 3     your prior testimony, you also said that you testified that the MUP

 4     wasn't even needed in Srebrenica because there was no resistance, it was

 5     over, and they were needed so badly in Sarajevo.

 6             In fact, as you just said, there was a request for more forces,

 7     and those forces were urgently sent to supplement the troops that

 8     President Karadzic sent in; right?  That's what we can see from this

 9     document.

10        A.   Well, again, I claim that it was not necessary for the MUP forces

11     to go to Srebrenica except for some particular police work, to protect

12     roads and to protect the population.  That is clear for anyone who dealt

13     with analysing Srebrenica.  It was not necessary in relation to the

14     forces that were there.  The MUP forces were not needed as combat forces,

15     as police forces to protect roads, yes.

16        Q.   And what's going on on the 12th?  We saw Mr. Vasic's report to

17     the MUP just a minute ago, about how the joint MUP forces were going in

18     to surround UNPROFOR -- to surrender the entire civilian protection --

19     population, take UNPROFOR prisoner.  This is the day that the first --

20     the day that the shipping out of the entire population of the enclave

21     starts.  That's what you send the MUP in to assist with, isn't it?

22        A.   No.  That's not right.  And in the command part we did not take

23     part and we did not carry out these activities.  That's not correct.

24        Q.   Well, you also just said that the police -- "... MUP forces were

25     not needed as combat forces, as police forces to protect roads, yes."

Page 42748

 1     What you urgently send them in for is mopping up the terrain.  You don't

 2     urgently send them in to protect a road.

 3        A.   That is your assertion.  In an area of 50 to 100 kilometres away

 4     from Srebrenica, we had movement of armed soldiers.  We had to protect

 5     the Milici-Zvornik road, as far as police work is concerned.  As far as

 6     military work is concerned, where the police was placed under their

 7     command, I did not go into the way they were being used because they were

 8     under their command.

 9        Q.   State security is part of the MUP - right? - under Dragan Kijac?

10        A.   Well, one of the entities, separate organisational unit within

11     the ministry.

12        Q.   Yes.  Now, we have already seen, and I don't want to talk about

13     it, but I'm sure you know, you'll agree with me that the MUP forces were

14     amongst the very first to enter Potocari; right?  You know that?

15        A.   I don't know that.  I don't think that they were the first to

16     enter Potocari.  I think this is an arbitrary assertion.  I was not in

17     command there.  I did not deal with that.  We can talk about that

18     subsequently.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the end of

20     the sentence.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:

22        Q.   Stop.  I'm not asking you whether you're in command.  I'm asking

23     you factually if you knew that the MUP were among the first into

24     Potocari, and you said you don't know.  At that point you answered the

25     question.

Page 42749

 1             Can I have P04388.  This is a Drina Corps document, not a MUP

 2     document.  It's from the security chief, Popovic, on 12 July.  He

 3     explains - maybe this will help you remember - MUP forces entered

 4     Potocari in the morning without combat.  But the part I want you to look

 5     at is number 3.  Last sentence:  We are separating men from 17 to 60

 6     years of age and we are not transporting them.  We have about 70 of them

 7     so far and the security organs and state security are working with them.

 8             So one part of the MUP goes into Potocari in the morning, men are

 9     separated, they are not transported, and state security is "working with

10     them"; right?

11        A.   This activity was not conducted.  I mean, none of these

12     activities that are referred to were conducted by the MUP.  It was the

13     security organ, and the operation was under their control and command.

14     Now, individuals who had been resubordinated, whether they had been

15     involved in certain activities, well, that is certainly visible, but this

16     has no link to any kind of order issued by the Ministry of the Interior

17     and this was not under our control.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, as you've said, and as the law shows I don't want to

19     go into it, take the time, the MUP can only be put into combat by an

20     order from the president and the minister.  But you're not seriously

21     suggesting that state security was subordinated to the VRS during

22     Srebrenica operation, are you?

23        A.   Well, state security, one or two men who were in that area,

24     I don't see -- I mean, I don't know of their activity, that they did

25     anything in that area.  From this document I see this now, and I don't --

Page 42750

 1     I didn't know that they did anything in Srebrenica.  I was not aware of

 2     their activities except for the information that we received about combat

 3     movements in the broader area.  I was not aware of any other activities.

 4     This is minor.  In this entire area, there was only one or two members of

 5     state security.

 6        Q.   Well --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure, Mr. Kovac, you answered the question.

 8     You said about the resubordination, do you say these DB members were

 9     resubordinated to the military at the time?  DB, state security.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, they were not

11     resubordinated to the army.  And I'm not aware of their activity, and

12     I think that as regards their activity, there wasn't really -- well, as

13     far as we, the ministry, are concerned, well, this is a department that

14     is separate, and we did not, I mean, receive such information.  And

15     I don't think that they were directly -- I mean, except for their

16     activities in the area, regular activities, reporting, I cannot explain

17     that.  I don't know about their activity at the time.  I did not receive

18     any information about where they were and what they were doing.

19             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, Mr. Kovac, why did you mention

20     about resubordination at all?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Resubordination?  Because there

22     were official units there that were resubordinate to the army.  That was

23     the special unit and -- and the first company from the security centre of

24     Zvornik.  And, according to the president's order, they were

25     resubordinated to the army, and there, in accordance with that order,

Page 42751

 1     they were present there and they operated under the command of

 2     Ljubisa Borovcanin, or rather, the command of the corps commander, the

 3     commander of the Drina Corps, so they were there on the basis of that

 4     order and they were active on the basis of that order.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  After Mr. Nicholls read out this passage, including

 6     the activities, alleged activities of DB members, you talked about

 7     resubordination.  Was it out of your mistake?

 8        A.   No, no, no.  What was being referred to here was not only state

 9     security.  Also, other units were mentioned there that were

10     resubordinated according to the order.  However, the SDB in terms of how

11     it acts, it is a separate department, it is a separate entity, and their

12     activity was always under certain, I mean, supervision of the head of the

13     State Security Service.  I'm not sure.  I don't know that they were

14     involved in this area in this way.  I do not have that kind of

15     information.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   Again, though, state security, Dragan Kijac, is part of the MUP,

20     it's under the minister; right?

21        A.   Well, you see, they are a unit that is separate, so the

22     State Security Service formally is under the MUP, but they independently

23     carry out -- but --

24        Q.   Okay, go ahead.  Go ahead.  They independently carry out?  Do you

25     want to say anything more?

Page 42752

 1        A.   Well, there is not anything else.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3        A.   They -- I mean, their activity is well known.  It is a special

 4     kind of activity.  Certainly they had tasks of their own, but that they

 5     worked on the separation of the population, I'm not aware of that

 6     information, and I don't think that this information is correct.  This is

 7     incorrect information of the lieutenant-colonel and --

 8        Q.   I didn't ask you at this point about separations.  Now, you said,

 9     I cannot explain that earlier, when asked by His Honour Judge Kwon about

10     information, I did not receive any information about where they were and

11     what they were doing.  Is that serious assertion, Mr. Kovac?  You did not

12     receive any information about what -- where state security were and what

13     they were doing?  Let's confine it to July 12, 13, 14, 15.

14        A.   We received information from state security, in general terms.

15     Now, where they were individually and what they did, we did not receive

16     that.  Their work was secret, who was where at which point in time and

17     who was doing what.  We did receive information.  I mean, please don't

18     twist this.  We did receive information from state security.  That is

19     correct.  Now, where they were in terms of groups, individuals, their

20     chief, who was where, if that's what you're asking me, I don't know, but

21     as an institution we did receive reports from them regularly.

22        Q.   Okay.  You are Dragan Kijac's boss in July 1995; right?  You are

23     superior to him in the MUP chain?

24        A.   Well, from the position of deputy minister, except in formal

25     terms, no.  The deputy minister could not command the

Page 42753

 1     State Security Service.  You see from all of this that I was at the level

 2     of public security.  I mean, if you want me to inform you where

 3     Dragan Kijac was at the time, he was on annual leave, on vacation at the

 4     seaside, as far as I know.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Where did I ask you about where Dragan Kijac was at the

 6     time in my question?  Why did you come up with that when I asked if you

 7     were his boss?

 8        A.   Well, I started saying that because you've been tendentiously

 9     saying that I know where his operatives were and I told you where he was

10     specifically at the time.  As for commanding and controlling him and the

11     State Security Service, I could not do that.

12        Q.   P04389, please.  Skip ahead.  So let me just ask you this before

13     we look at this document.  You didn't know that Goran Radovic, head of

14     the Bijeljina state security centre, went down to Bratunac on 12,

15     13 July?

16        A.   No, I didn't know.  He didn't need to inform me and I didn't

17     know.

18        Q.   You didn't know that Mile Renovica, the Zvornik chief of state

19     security, was in Bratunac on the night of 13 July -- or, in that period,

20     12, 13 July?

21        A.   I did not know.  It was normal for him to be in that area because

22     that's his area, that's the area where he was working, Bratunac was our

23     territory and had been before.  It's quite normal.  It's his daily

24     activity to move around that area.  If he did that before, why wouldn't

25     he do it during those days?  But he didn't need to report to me about

Page 42754

 1     that.  He didn't need to inform me because we are not organisationally

 2     linked.  It was quite normal for him to be in that area.

 3        Q.   This is 13 July 1995.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, sorry.  Your Honours, I may end up asking

 5     for more time - I'm sorry - based on the lengths and type of answers.

 6        Q.   You say he's not organisationally linked to you?  He's a state

 7     security chief for Zvornik which is part of the MUP which is linked to

 8     you as deputy minister of the MUP.

 9        A.   You should not emphasise the position which is just an

10     alternative to the deputy minister.  They are linked to the minister and

11     the ministry.  I just stood in for the minister in connection with this

12     area.  I'm not saying they are not part of the MUP but they are a

13     separate system and, of course, the MUP is kept informed but they are a

14     separate system with separate rules of work.

15        Q.   Nobody has contested that that they are a separate chain.  All

16     right.  This document is the one for 13 July 1995 from state security,

17     signed by Dragan Kijac.  If we go to the second page, Mr. Kovac.  And it

18     is headed, to deputy minister of the interior, personally.  You, on

19     13 July 1995, were deputy minister of the interior personally, correct?

20        A.   I was deputy.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And so the second person this goes to is to head of

22     public security personally.  That's Kijac, right -- Karisik, right?

23        A.   Not Kijac and Karisik, just Karisik.

24        Q.   My mistake.  All right.  And this is informing you personally

25     that during the night of 12 to 13, members of the VRS and MUP managed to

Page 42755

 1     capture a large number of Muslim soldiers in ambushes set up in the

 2     general Konjevic Polje area; right?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And it is informing you of the break-up of some of the Muslim

 5     extremist groups as they move along the road.  And then it says:

 6             "The operation to detect and neutralise the Muslim groups is

 7     continuing.  Earlier information regarding their intentions and the axes

 8     of movement towards Kladanj and Tuzla (Buljim, Pobudje Konjevic Polje,

 9     Kaldrmica, Cerska, Snagovo, Crni Vrh) have been confirmed many times in

10     interviews with prisoners."

11             And it talks about Naser Oric.  So state security -- excuse me.

12     Let me read one more.  Ibgan Mustafic, a former SDA deputy and a former

13     BH assembly and a great opponent of Naser Oric, was among the prisoners

14     and can, with the necessary preparation, be used well in the media.  So

15     state security is informing you that they know the movements of the

16     Muslims through many times in interviews with prisoners; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I jumped ahead to that.  Let's go back to something now on the

19     12th of July, that Mr. Borovcanin testified to in this courtroom in June.

20     He was asked, excuse me, this is at -- this is 7 June, 39456, at line 5:

21             "Just looking at your after-action report is what I call it, you

22     stated there on the 12th that you received information from the state

23     security employees about the movement of the Muslim column; is that

24     correct?

25             "Inter alia, I received information from them, that is true.

Page 42756

 1             "And, who, do you remember their names, these state security

 2     folks?

 3             "I think I mentioned it in my interview.  There were two state

 4     security operatives there.  One of them was Vito Tomic, the other, last

 5     name was Glogovac, I believe.

 6             "Sinisa?  Sinica Glogovac?

 7             "Yes.

 8             "And where were they when you received information from them, and

 9     where were you in Potocari and what date?

10             "12 July 1995."

11             So let me just recap this a bit.

12             MUP joint MUP forces, as Vasic reported to you, entered

13     Srebrenica, entered Potocari, and take it early on the 12th without

14     resistance.  State security is present in Potocari interviewing separated

15     prisoners and getting information.  Borovcanin gets information of the

16     movement of the column from state security and then sets up the line to

17     ambush those men in the Muslim column.  You still say MUP was not

18     necessary on 12, 13 July, for the operation against Srebrenica?

19        A.   Yes.  I still say that, but you are putting other things here,

20     and twisting everything and presenting the MUP as acting independently,

21     that Vasic commanded, that Ljubisa executed and that it was all connected

22     with state security.  The state security was not there according to

23     establishment.  It was there in the area in accordance with the

24     methodology of work.  And like all secret services in the world, they did

25     their work.  They were not within the same chain.  There was no link with

Page 42757

 1     Ljubisa Borovcanin.  The fact that they knew each other and exchanged

 2     information is their business, their work on the ground.

 3        Q.   Well, sorry, their business, their work on the ground, Borovcanin

 4     in his report, which I do not want to bring up at the moment, says that

 5     on the basis of information from state security, he learned about the

 6     movements of the Muslim column which is why he went and set up his

 7     positions on the road.  That's what he was being questioned about in the

 8     transcript reference I read you.  So the link there is state security is

 9     finding information from prisoners and providing that to the commander of

10     the MUP forces in Srebrenica.  What do you mean there is no link?

11        A.   [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness's microphone is off.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no link.  As for the

14     assertion that MUP created such an organisation, Ljubisa was under the

15     command of the army.  Under the law, Ljubisa was supposed to get

16     information through the security organ of the army.  The fact that that

17     he personally knew these people there, that the state security people got

18     information from that area, they obtained that information because they

19     knew each other.  Ljubisa used to be -- to know the chief of police in

20     Bratunac.  Through the establishment, he was supposed to get information

21     from the security organs of the army while working in that area, because

22     he had been detached, seconded from the MUP, and he was under the command

23     of the army.  What he did was not in accordance with the law.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:

25        Q.   Okay.  So let me get it straight.  Your explanation is that

Page 42758

 1     Borovcanin is in Potocari, Sinisa Glogovac is in Potocari, they recognise

 2     each other from Bratunac, from before the war, and Sinisa Glogovac, who

 3     has been interviewing prisoners at the white house, says, Oh, hey, here

 4     is a tip, since I know you're from Bratunac, the Muslims are heading off

 5     in that direction, towards Kladanj.  That's the way it happened?

 6        A.   No, no, no, no.  It's not the way you presented it.  But,

 7     essentially, and you know this very well, I don't need to explain this to

 8     you so many times, Ljubisa Borovcanin and his units were resubordinated

 9     to the Drina Corps and all his official communication and all the

10     information that he was supposed to receive was -- he was supposed to

11     receive along that chain.  His acquaintances with people from the state

12     security who worked in that area enabled him to receive that information

13     directly from them.  According to their rules, they were not supposed to

14     give him that information directly but through the system of reporting

15     that was used to provide information to me, and others in the ministry.

16     That's how they were supposed to work.  Because these state security

17     employees were not part of the police or the army staff and they were not

18     sent there and they were not resubordinated.

19             JUDGE KWON:  While Mr. Nicholls is looking at his document, one

20     legal question, Mr. Kovac.  Take the example of Mr. Borovcanin.  While he

21     was resubordinated to the army, was he not still duty-bound to report

22     to -- back to the MUP or police what he had been doing at the time?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In keeping with the law, from the

24     moment when he was resubordinated to the army, he would be exclusively

25     under their competence and all his reports would go to the higher command

Page 42759

 1     of the Drina Corps, the commander of the Drina Corps.  From the viewpoint

 2     of his activities at the moment when he's resubordinated.  As soon as

 3     units are resubordinated, they become part of the army, and they execute

 4     solely the orders of the superior corps, or perhaps the brigade if they

 5     were resubordinated to the lower level, depending on the order given and

 6     the area to which they were assigned.  Thereby, the state organ of the

 7     Drina Corps was the one who was supposed to give them orders.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Your answer could be either yes or no.  So your

 9     answer is no.  So he was not duty-bound to report what he had been doing

10     to the police?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not duty-bound to do that at

12     the time when he was resubordinated.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  P02987, please.

15        Q.   From Ljubisa Borovcanin, 13 July 1995, when he's resubordinated,

16     from the -- to MUP Special Police Brigade, it says on the top, to Pale

17     police staff, Vogosca police staff, Special Police Brigade Janja.  On

18     12 July 1995 in the course of the day, a MUP combat unit composed of the

19     second Special Police detachment, a MUP company of the Zvornik PJP, and a

20     mixed company of the Janja MUP was engaged in offensive combat operations

21     from the direction of Zuti Most toward Potocari.  And then it says about

22     how at 5.30 they sealed off Zuti Most and then proceeded along the road

23     towards Potocari which, if this helps you remember, is why I asked if you

24     knew that they were amongst the first units in.  In Potocari we sealed

25     off the main UN base where a throng of between 25.000 and 30.000

Page 42760

 1     civilians had gathered, approximately 5 per cent of whom were able bodied

 2     men.  A part of the MUP forces was involved in the organisation of the

 3     evacuation of civilians from Srebrenica to Kladanj.  As we had received

 4     information from state security that all able bodied Muslims from

 5     Srebrenica had set out on a break-through towards Konjevic Polje and

 6     further towards Tuzla, I urgently dispatched our forces with the support

 7     of hardware to seal off the Kravica-Konjevic Polje road where they spent

 8     the night.

 9             In the night between 12 and 13 July 1995, this armed Muslim group

10     launched an attack on the direction of Konjevic Polje.  In the combat

11     that lasted several hours and which continued through the day, the enemy

12     had more than 200 dead and we captured or had surrendered to us around

13     1500 Muslim soldiers.  The number increases by the hour.  According to

14     all indications, the number of Muslim soldiers who did not manage to

15     break through is on the rise -- who did not manage to break through, and

16     is approximately between 5.000 and 6.000 which means that we have intense

17     combat ahead of us.  I hope that we will successfully carry out this task

18     also, deputy commander, the Special Police Brigade, Ljubisa Borovcanin.

19             Reporting his -- comprehensively reporting his military

20     activities in the last two days while resubordinated; right?

21        A.   Well, he may report.  It's up to him whether he will report or

22     not.  But he doesn't have the obligation to report.  He's exclusively

23     under the command of the army when he's carrying out these activities.

24     And how he carried them out, you saw during the whole trial, you got all

25     the explanations as to what he did and how he worked.  The MUP got this

Page 42761

 1     for information and they sent these reports whenever they wanted, if they

 2     wanted.  They didn't send these reports because it required any action

 3     from the MUP.  He was not under the MUP command.  He provided us with

 4     information.  He gave us reports.  But he was not under our command.  He

 5     did not have the obligation to send this.  He could have but he didn't

 6     have to.

 7        Q.   You don't need to say in every question I ask you the MUP was

 8     not -- he was not under MUP command, okay?

 9        A.   I think it is necessary because you clearly want to involve MUP

10     in a commanding role in these activities, which is completely untrue.  We

11     had different tasks.

12        Q.   As the deputy minister of the MUP and Borovcanin's superior at

13     the time, I can see why you worry about that, but you don't need to

14     answer every single question that Borovcanin wasn't under your command at

15     the time.  Are you seriously saying it's completely optional to report

16     for the MUP, when they are resubordinated, Borovcanin can just decide

17     whether or not the Ministry of the Interior should know that his MUP

18     units have 1500 prisoners and are taking more by the hour?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, objection.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Shall I hear your objection in the

21     absence of the witness?

22             THE ACCUSED:  I may say it in English if you want.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think I'm not convinced that Mr. Kovac does not

24     speak any English.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Before -- without going into detail, could you tell

Page 42762

 1     me just in a summary matter what it is about?

 2             THE ACCUSED:  It's pertaining the --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  You can speak in the B/C/S but just without telling

 4     the detail of your -- the merit, just tell us what it is about.  So I

 5     will -- before we need to decide whether the witness is to be excused or

 6     not, tell me what it is about.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has to do with the number and

 8     the nature of this report about the capturing of these 1500 men who

 9     captured them and whom they surrendered.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I think it can be raised -- discussed in your

11     re-examination.  Objection overruled.

12             Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:

14        Q.   So you can answer the question.  It's completely optional when

15     Mr. Borovcanin has captured or surrendered around 1500 Muslim soldiers

16     and the number is increasing by the hour.  It's completely optional

17     whether he can -- should report that up the chain to the MUP?

18        A.   Let's not confuse the subject of reporting and his action.  If it

19     indeed happened that he took these people prisoner, which I doubt because

20     this information was often inaccurate and it was written just like

21     that --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kovac, I don't think that was part of the

23     question.  The question was whether it's optional on the part of

24     Borovcanin to report or not.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not optional to report.  If

Page 42763

 1     he had any prisoners, he had to report his superior officer at the

 2     command of the Drina Corps.  That's what he had to do.  To report to the

 3     MUP in parallel was optional.  He could have done that but not -- he

 4     didn't have to.  It's one thing whether he had any prisoners or not and

 5     it's a completely different matter what was going on in a certain area.

 6     But you are linking decisions about how to treat particular prisoners and

 7     the subject of reporting.  One thing is information as to what to do

 8     next.  He had to get that from the Drina Corps.  And the reporting --

 9        Q.   I'm stopping you now.  I didn't ask you anything about treatment

10     of these prisoners.  I will but I didn't.  Stop building into my

11     questions questions I haven't asked you that you want to answer.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I'd request a break five minutes

13     early, if it's not inconvenient, because I'm going to move on to

14     something different.

15             JUDGE KWON:  No difficulty with that.  We will have a break for

16     half an hour and resume at 5 to 11.00.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue, Mr. Nicholls.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   Okay.  Could you please close your statement, not look at it for

25     a moment.  Thank you.

Page 42764

 1             13 July 1995, in the afternoon, according to the president's

 2     appointment book which is P02242, I'm not going to bring that up, you

 3     meet with President Karadzic from 15.50 to 16.10, and you spend that time

 4     just discussing ammunition problems in Sarajevo; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That's it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Nothing about Srebrenica?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Okay.  So this is the day that Borovcanin's reported that 1500

11     prisoners are being taken and the number is increasing.  This is after

12     you've sent the dog unit to Srebrenica.  You remember that you sent the

13     Doboj unit to Srebrenica on the 13th, you issued the order, Doboj PJP?

14        A.   That is not correct.  I sent the Doboj unit as assistants for

15     protecting the town of Zvornik to the centre of the security services of

16     Zvornik, not to the Srebrenica theatre of war.  And they were 500 metres

17     above the town of Zvornik because it was being threatened by the groups

18     that were entering the area.

19        Q.   Okay.  You sent Doboj PJP to Zvornik, correct.  That's P05146.

20     Now, you've been informed about 1500 prisoners, Karadzic has been

21     informed by the VRS about prisoners being taken, Vasic has reported to

22     you about the situation, and you have no words whatsoever to say about

23     what the MUP are doing in Srebrenica or what's happening in Srebrenica?

24        A.   No, for two reasons:  One is the law.  They are resubordinated to

25     the army, and any kind of reporting of mine would not have been correct

Page 42765

 1     or --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand the other

 3     word.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second reason was that I

 5     opposed the engagement of units because of the real danger in Sarajevo,

 6     whereas the theatre of war, as such, was not a problem.  However, a

 7     problem was made out of the way in which prisoners of war were treated.

 8     This was after the operation.  This was 20 years later.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:

10        Q.   All right.  P04942, please.  This is from Vasic to the

11     Ministry of the Interior on 13 July.  I'm not going to go through it all.

12     He's reporting:  1, we urgently need ten tonnes of petrol; 2, killing of

13     about 8.000 Muslim soldiers who we blocked in the woods near Konjevic

14     Polje.  Fighting is going on.  This job is being done solely by the MUP

15     units.  Send the Srbinje or Doboj special detachment to Konjevic Polje.

16             You don't discuss Srebrenica because there were no problems in

17     Srebrenica, only in Sarajevo; right?

18        A.   No.  I've already said what I had to say about these statements

19     of yours and the terminology, liquidation, et cetera.  This is not

20     correct.  This is panic stricken because he had quite a few Muslim

21     soldiers who were on the move near Zvornik, Milici, and this is an

22     arbitrary statement of his.  Especially the term liquidation that he

23     used.  That is absolutely not doable.  It was not carried out.  And it is

24     terminologically incorrect.  And I have already said what I had to say

25     about that, and he did not say what he had to say about that.  I could

Page 42766

 1     not suggest to him how he should report.  He reported the way he

 2     reported, and this is not correct.

 3        Q.   Okay.  You just said "panic stricken."  Panic stricken.  The MUP

 4     is reporting to you that it is panic stricken.  You're meeting with the

 5     Supreme Commander.  That's not important enough to raise; right?  Let me

 6     rephrase that.  Let me make it clear.  You meet --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The translation is the killing of

10     8.000 Muslims, whereas the liquidation of some group in military

11     terminology is not killing.  So this is the hundredth example of the

12     translation is not good, the translation into the English language.  The

13     liquidation of a group in military terms does not mean killing and it was

14     translated as killing.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's go.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:

17        Q.   You meet with Karadzic on 13th, 14th and 15th of July; correct?

18     It's in your statement; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   On none of those days did you discuss Srebrenica; right?

21        A.   No.  I didn't want that topic, and he didn't ask me, and I did

22     not bring up the topic.

23        Q.   All right.  Okay.  Let me read you a portion of your testimony

24     from the Jevic case.  This is 65 ter 25516, English 24 to 25, B/C/S 25 to

25     26:

Page 42767

 1             Prosecutor -- well, he asks you, to make this shorter, about the

 2     dispatch you just talked about, regarding the 8.000 Muslims, however we

 3     want to qualify it, that Vasic -- that I just showed you.  And he asks

 4     you:  Did any of the dispatches give you grounds to go into the field and

 5     verify the situation?  On the 13th, speaking of the 13th July.  You:  The

 6     main reason for my going in the end after they finished those operations

 7     was the direct order from the president of the republic, and it was my

 8     obligation as a policeman to visit the terrain, set up a police station

 9     in the generally chaotic situation to protect property, and introduce

10     some police order after all the military activity.  So I went into the

11     field acting on orders of the president of the republic and with the

12     intention of finding out about the situation in the town and the state of

13     industrial facilities.  We immediately set up a police station in order

14     to establish order.  This was my motive for going to that area.

15             Do you stand by that sworn testimony?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   On the 13th of July, after meeting with Karadzic in the

18     afternoon, later on that day you were in Vlasenica; correct?

19        A.   I went in the direction of Zvornik and Bijeljina and I passed

20     through Vlasenica, yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You testified about it lots of times and in many

22     statements.  You met -- this is the short question:  You met with

23     General Mladic in Vlasenica on 13 July.

24        A.   Yes.  His soldiers stopped me at the check-point in Vlasenica,

25     and he asked to see him and I found him at the headquarters in Vlasenica.

Page 42768

 1        Q.   Let me read to you some testimony from another of Mr. Karadzic's

 2     Defence witnesses in this case, Duga Puska, Zvonko Bajagic, 10 July.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  This is at T41161, Your Honours, 10 July 2013.

 4     I'll try to make it quick.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bajagic is asked:  General Mladic came to your house, didn't

 6     he, on 13 July?

 7             Yes, he did.

 8             Sat out on the terrace and had a beer; is that right?

 9             Yes.

10             And then he discusses how the chief of the Vlasenica police comes

11     by and said you were in Vlasenica, maybe at a hotel.  And the witness

12     says:

13             Look, you refreshed my memory somewhat now.  I'm rewinding this,

14     trying to find some other details.  I do remember the chief of police

15     Milenko Masjorovic [phoen] told General Mladic when he got there that

16     Tomo Kovac was in Vlasenica, either at the police station, the corps, or

17     the hotel.  He added the hotel.

18             Okay.  Thank you.  So General Mladic asked you to go find Tomo

19     Kovac, right, and check where he was?

20             Yes.

21             So you found him.  You went and found Tomo Kovac?

22             Yes.

23             I'll skip ahead.  After you found him General Mladic and

24     Tomo Kovac had a meeting, didn't they?

25             General Mladic sent me to find him and come to my house.  The

Page 42769

 1     reason was that they should discuss something.

 2             Well -- question:

 3             Well, were you at this meeting weren't you, Mr. Bajagic?

 4             Well, in my mind, this wasn't a meeting.  It was a short

 5     encounter.  They discussed something.  But out of courtesy, I didn't want

 6     to sit at the table with them.  I assumed that as two commanders,

 7     commander of the Serbian army and the commander of the Serbian police,

 8     had something to talk about, so I went out while the two of them had a

 9     word.  What they talked about, I don't know.

10             And that's exactly what happened, isn't it, Mr. Kovac?  That

11     after leaving the office of the Supreme Commander, you, the commander of

12     the police, went into the field as directed by Karadzic, you met with the

13     commander of the army because you had something to discuss on

14     13 July, 1995; right?

15        A.   No, that is not right.  You have several statements of mine.

16     I did not meet with Mladic in Bajagic's house.  At the check-point

17     outside Srebrenica I was stopped, perhaps this Duga Puska Bajagic was

18     with them, I cannot remember, and they stopped me then at the check-point

19     and informed me that Mladic was looking for me and I did not stay at the

20     hotel or the police station.  So none of that is correct, none of that

21     from that statement.  It is correct that I was stopped and that

22     I returned from that check-point and went to the command of the

23     Drina Corps, and that is where I found Mladic.  And I've stated that to

24     you several times already, and I cannot go in this direction, Bajagic's

25     statement.  For me, he is an informal person, and I am not going to

Page 42770

 1     assess his statements and his memories, but this person never had an

 2     opportunity of seeing me and talking to me.

 3        Q.   And while you're meeting with General Mladic that afternoon,

 4     having left the president's office after 4.00 p.m., that's while the

 5     Kravica warehouse executions are going on, isn't it?  You know that.

 6        A.   At that time, I did not know that and I could not have known

 7     that.  This was not a meeting with Mladic.  They stopped me and I went to

 8     this command and you have my statement as to how I found them at that

 9     command.  If necessary, I can speak about that too now.  I shall speak

10     about it, if you ask me to do so.  Do you want me to speak about that?

11     How this evolved?

12        Q.   Let me summarise it quickly and see if -- you tell me if I get it

13     right.  Mladic saw you, he was drunk, he was bragging about taking

14     Srebrenica, I think in your interview with me you said you stayed there

15     and had a beer, and then you left.

16        A.   No.  I did not drink beer.  They drank beer.  Valjevsko Pivo,

17     that was the beer that they were drinking, and they were rather drunk.

18     This was bragging.  And I left rather quickly because they were not

19     really asking me for anything, because, I repeat, they stopped me at the

20     check-point and this was characteristic of Mladic sometimes.  This was

21     not a friendly or a collegiate gesture.  I visited with them briefly.

22     I saw that they were drunk, they were bragging that they had taken

23     Srebrenica, and that was it.  They wanted me to congratulate them and

24     that was the only conversation there.  So there was no agreement reached.

25     There was no discussion.  It was impossible to discuss anything.

Page 42771

 1        Q.   Right.  It's impossible to discuss anything at the Drina Corps

 2     command with General Mladic.  You -- he called you up there, then, for no

 3     reason; right?  Nothing?  Just to brag.

 4        A.   Well, that's right.  That's the condition that they were in.

 5     There were several officers there.  Krstic was there too.  He was visibly

 6     in a good mood and drunk, and --

 7        Q.   You answered the question.  You said, well, that's right.  That

 8     answered the question.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I don't think that's

10     fair.  If he wants to elaborate he should be allowed to.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, he -- he --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Let's go on.  He answered the question.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P05376, please.

14        Q.   Sir, this is an intercept from 19.45 on 13 July.  It's somebody

15     called X calling from General Krstic.  I'm looking for Ljubisa who has

16     gone Bratunac.  Because I don't have much time I'm not going to go

17     through it all.  But X says, is that right?  Y says, Yes.  Those from

18     Janja are here.  X says, Okay.  Y says, And the ones from Doboj, are they

19     supposed to arrive?  X says, Yes.  Y, And, now, what shall I do with

20     them?  Well, you have to check about that with -- Y, because I've left it

21     to -- in fact, to Ljubisa to plan it.  And so whenever I need to I can

22     send it off in that direction.  Okay.  That's it.  Have Ljubisa call me

23     at General Krstic's.  Okay.  You know where it is.  I know.

24             So doesn't that look to you like there is somebody at Krstic's

25     working on the MUP coming from Doboj and Bijeljina, the Doboj units you

Page 42772

 1     ordered into the field?  Was that -- was that you on this intercept

 2     saying have Ljubisa call me at Krstic's, since you were at Krstic's that

 3     day around that time?

 4        A.   No, no, it wasn't me.

 5        Q.   All right.  And then, after you leave Vlasenica, you say in your

 6     statement that you went to Bijeljina, and I won't argue about that, but

 7     we agree you spent the night of the 13th at the Vidikovac hotel in Divic,

 8     in Zvornik?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And the Vidikovac wasn't just a hotel, the MUP used it as a

11     check-point; right?

12        A.   No.  Not as a check-point.  It was used for some other work that

13     had to do with organisation of the procurement of ammunition, fuel, food

14     and other supplies.  It was impossible to use it as a check-point because

15     it is separate.  I was interested in those days for things that were

16     needed for Sarajevo, and that's why I was there, that's why I spent the

17     night there.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   It is on the Drina, on the border, and --

20        Q.   We all know where it is.  The -- so the MUP for whatever purpose,

21     and you've said this before, have offices there or have worked out of

22     there, the Vidikovac?

23        A.   There were people there who worked in the department for material

24     and technical resources.  That's where they were staying.  It was

25     specifically these people who were there at that point.

Page 42773

 1        Q.   Now, after this night, after you've been at Vlasenica with

 2     General Mladic, you know that there was a meeting, Vasic tells you about

 3     it later, a meeting between Vasic, Beara and Deronjic in Deronjic's

 4     office; right?

 5        A.   No.  I did not see Vasic that night.  I saw him only on the

 6     following day in Bratunac.

 7        Q.   I'm not asking you if you saw Vasic.  Maybe it's a

 8     miscommunication.  You know that late at night on the 13th of July, Vasic

 9     was in Deronjic's office with Beara and Deronjic at some point; right?

10        A.   No, no, no.  I was not informed about that, no.

11        Q.   Okay.  You're learning that from me today for the first time?  Is

12     that what you're saying?

13        A.   Don't -- don't -- let us not confuse things.  One thing is what

14     we all found out later, after what happened in Srebrenica, and it's a

15     different thing what I knew between the 13th and the 14th.  Between the

16     13th, 14th, I didn't know anything about that, and as for what we found

17     out later on, both you and I can -- well, I mean I know over these 20

18     years I found out what happened, and --

19        Q.   Stop.  You need to listen to my questions more carefully.

20     I said -- well, let's see if we -- you know I meant now -- you know there

21     was meeting, right, so we can stop this.  We agree.  You know now as you

22     sit there today that Vasic, Deronjic, and Beara met in Deronjic's office

23     on the night of the 13th; right?  You know that now.

24        A.   I know now that you presented that to me precisely.  At that time

25     I was not interested in that activity and I didn't know about it.

Page 42774

 1     I mean, I -- no, I mean, what -- what is it that you want from this?

 2     That night I did not have any contact with Vasic, and I don't know what

 3     they agreed --

 4        Q.   Okay.  Deronjic is Karadzic's direct subordinate.  Mladic is

 5     Beara's superior.  Vasic is your subordinate.  They all meet in

 6     Deronjic's SDS office that night, 13 July, to discuss what to do with all

 7     the prisoners in Bratunac.  You're saying you didn't -- when did you find

 8     out about that meeting?  First time.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.  Objection.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Probably this -- could you put your question again?

11             MR. NICHOLLS:

12        Q.   Karadzic's newly appointed civilian commissioner for Srebrenica

13     is meeting with Beara and meeting with Vasic in Deronjic's office.  When

14     did you find out about that meeting?  You said you know about it now.

15             JUDGE KWON:  You still have an objection?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This form of question, yes, but to

17     imply that they met up to discuss the fate of the prisoners, that is

18     unfair because we don't have any proof --

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  There is clear evidence in the record about what

21     happened at that meeting and that's our case.

22        Q.   When did you find out about that meeting?

23        A.   I was not informed about that meeting officially or unofficially,

24     ever, from Vasic.  So I was not informed about these meetings.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Kovac.  It's very disappointing that you do

Page 42775

 1     not answer the question.  The question was not whether you were informed

 2     at the time.  When did you come to know that there was such a meeting,

 3     yesterday or ten years ago, two years ago?  Or only now?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I had not been

 5     informed about that meeting.  I can be informed by reading documents as

 6     I prepare and say today and --

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:

 8        Q.   Stop.  I'm sorry, stop.  This is a very simple question.  You're

 9     a lawyer.  When did you first hear about this meeting?

10        A.   Until now -- well, I may have read about it in some documents but

11     as for this meeting, especially not in this form that it was held --

12     I mean, I was not following meetings of Deronjic, Beara, Vasic.  I did

13     not receive this information.  Let's be clear.  I did not receive that

14     information.  In the form that you're putting the question, this is the

15     first time I hear of it.

16        Q.   All right.

17        A.   You have -- may I?

18        Q.   No.  Let me put it in this form.  You've already told us you did

19     hear about this meeting before today.  This is very simple:  When did you

20     hear that Beara, Deronjic and Vasic met on the night of the 13th of July?

21        A.   I cannot say.  I did not receive this information earlier on.

22     I may have read it somewhere in the documents, but I cannot say.

23     I didn't focus on that.  I did not have information about that meeting,

24     especially not in the form that you've been referring to it, as it had

25     happened.

Page 42776

 1        Q.   I'm going to move on.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let us move on.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   Now, very briefly, I think this is easy.  On the way to Zvornik,

 5     at Konjevic Polje, you saw Muslim prisoners on buses; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And around 8.00 that night, 13 July, we are still on, is when the

 8     first prisoners go from Bratunac to Zvornik; right?

 9        A.   Yes, according to this knowledge, yes.

10        Q.   Right.  So it's a pure coincidence that you go from the

11     president's office to Mladic to Zvornik, and the prisoners go from

12     Bratunac to Zvornik on the same night?

13        A.   This is no coincidence.  This is the sequence of events as they

14     evolved.  Communication was normal for me on that route.  The taking of

15     prisoners in these operations and their transportation by buses to

16     Zvornik, for me that was a legal situation, and that was not developing

17     only at that moment.  It was going on for a few days, as far as I know.

18        Q.   Right.  So you knew -- so let's be clear.  You knew that

19     prisoners were being taken to Zvornik, not to Batkovic, to Zvornik?

20        A.   Of course, yes, to Zvornik.  It was a military barracks.

21        Q.   Including the 1500 prisoners taken by the MUP that Borovcanin

22     talked about that you knew about; right?

23        A.   I wouldn't go into the precise figures, how many the MUP had

24     taken prisoners.  According to the law, the MUP had to hand over all the

25     prisoners to the army, and those who were imprisoned next to the road in

Page 42777

 1     Konjevic Polje, they were all handed over to the army, they were boarded

 2     on buses and transported to the barracks in accordance with the request

 3     of the army.

 4        Q.   And I misspoke, I'm sorry, 1500 prisoners taken by the MUP going

 5     to Zvornik, that's not right, probably a lot of those ended up being

 6     murdered in Kravica that same day while you were with Mladic; right?

 7        A.   I don't know.  At the time, I wasn't aware of that at all, that

 8     incident in Kravica.  And what I saw, I saw the lawful handing over of

 9     prisoners from the MUP who had been taken prisoner next to -- along the

10     road in Konjevic Polje.  They were handed over to the army.

11        Q.   Let's go through 14 July now.  You wake up, you're in the

12     Vidikovac; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   That day, you travel to Bratunac; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And from there you go to Srebrenica; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you go all the way down to Zeleni Jadar; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And from Bratunac to Srebrenica, you go with Vasic and

21     Borovcanin; right?

22        A.   No.  From Bratunac to Srebrenica, yes, yes.

23        Q.   Also to Zeleni Jadar?

24        A.   Yes.  We went straight -- actually, we passed by Srebrenica, went

25     to Zeleni Jadar, and then we returned to Srebrenica after that.

Page 42778

 1        Q.   Okay.  I asked you in -- I didn't ask you, sorry.  In your 2010

 2     interview, you were asked what time of day did you go to Bratunac and

 3     Srebrenica from Zvornik, and you said:  I think it was around 10.00 or

 4     11.00.  That's 25350, e-court 135 to 136.  Is that right, about 10.00 or

 5     11.00, you head off for Bratunac?

 6        A.   I set out at around that time because in the morning I had a

 7     meeting at Vidikovac, I remember that quite well, and at some point I set

 8     out.  I think it was close to 11.00 when I set out from Vidikovac in the

 9     direction of Bratunac, yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And that means you make the turn at Konjevic Polje

11     and then head to Bratunac down the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road; right?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   So on the 14 July, you drive right past the Kravica warehouse,

14     sometime around noon; right?

15        A.   Around noon, yes.

16        Q.   And you don't see anything; right?

17        A.   No, not at that time, no.

18        Q.   Here is what Karadzic's other witnesses he's called in this trial

19     say about what was going on when you drove past -- or what was going on

20     at the morning of the Kravica warehouse.  Jovan Nikolic, at T25493, said

21     that he went to Kravica around 9.30 or 10.00 in the morning and witnessed

22     an execution of ten Muslims in front of the warehouse.  Did you know

23     that, there had been an execution right before you drove by?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Aleksandar Tesic spoke about this at T35324 to 35326.  He said he

Page 42779

 1     left Bratunac going to Zvornik, opposite of you, he also leaves between

 2     10.00 and 12.00, he says, maybe about 11.00, and outside the Kravica

 3     warehouse, he said he didn't witness an execution.  Jovan Nikolic

 4     apparently there a little bit earlier.  Here is what he said he saw, same

 5     day, same approximate time that you're driving by:

 6             "When I happened upon that spot, I realised there was quite a

 7     crowd, many soldiers milling about and the bus was moving at a very slow

 8     pace, halting along the way.  There is the perimeter wall of the co-op

 9     building and there were very many bodies lying there.  When I think back,

10     I realise it was a huge shock to me and particularly to those young men

11     who were with me, aged no more than 18.  I figure there must have been at

12     least between 200 and 300 bodies lying there about a metre and a metre

13     and a half high.  At first I thought it was firewood stacked against a

14     wall when I first cast a glance in that direction, and then I realised

15     what it was.  So it really left a horrible impression on us.

16             "Q.  Yeah.  And there were a lot of soldiers there too, you said.

17     You said there were so many that it was hard to drive through.

18             "Yes."

19             So how do you miss the hundreds of bodies piled up in front of

20     the warehouse that Karadzic's other truthful witness told us about?

21        A.   I think that I don't know about the time when he passed, but at

22     the moment when I came along, around noon, I don't think that that was

23     there any longer.  I'm telling you that from my present perspective.

24     I think that's the reason why I didn't come across that.  I think that

25     around 12.00 that was not there any longer.  I didn't pay any attention,

Page 42780

 1     nor did I notice it.  But if it had been so marked I would have seen it.

 2     Judging by what I learned later, I think that by noon, this -- those

 3     bodies were removed from that place.

 4        Q.   From what you learned later, okay, that means that you would have

 5     been going past Glogova where those bodies were bulldozed into a hole at

 6     the time.  How long do you think it takes to clean up hundreds and

 7     hundreds of bodies and bury them a few kilometres away?  Because Glogova

 8     is closer to Bratunac.  You passed that, too, on the way to Bratunac on

 9     the morning of the 14th.  Did you see anybody being buried there?

10        A.   No.  I didn't pay any attention, but I didn't register that, no.

11     At that moment, we can talk about what I learned later on, but at that

12     time, around 12.00, as I was passing along, I never noticed that.

13     I mean, it was really crowded that whole area, movements of tanks and the

14     army, withdrawing from Srebrenica, moving along the road, but I -- there

15     was a big crowd but I didn't notice this.

16        Q.   Okay.  Same day, 14 July, let me read out to you -- well, let

17     me -- let me -- let me do it this way, I want to ask you a question.

18             This is something I read to you in the interview, okay?  I read

19     you when we met what Vasic had testified to in the Perisic case, which

20     was that on the 14th, at 7.00 in the morning, he arrived at the Bratunac

21     station because he'd received information that minister of internal

22     affairs, Mr. Tomislav Kovac, was going to visit Bratunac and Srebrenica

23     that day.  I had the intention to prepare for this visit.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours, this is 25303 in e-court.

25        Q.   Because of the time I'm going to have to move very quickly.

Page 42781

 1             He is asked:

 2             "What did Colonel Beara tell you?

 3             "A.  He repeated that on the next -- that the order of General

 4     Mladic to him was to kill the prisoners.  And he asked if I could set

 5     aside a few trusty or trusted policemen who would be placed under his

 6     command in order to carry out this task.  I said that I was not going to

 7     give any police officers policemen for that.  As far as I understood the

 8     order was not such and that I did not wish to participate in something

 9     like that.  He turned away angrily and left."

10             And then he says -- he's asked:

11             "Later on when you met Minister Kovac, did you relate your

12     conversation with Beara, and we know that Minister Kovac came to Bratunac

13     that morning; is that right?"

14             And Vasic answers under oath in Perisic:

15             "Immediately after the minister's arrival, Minister Kovac's

16     arrival, I informed him about my meeting and the content of the

17     conversation and the content, actually, of what I heard from Beara.

18             "Q.  Did he react at all?

19             "A.  The minister said that the military prisoners were under the

20     jurisdiction of the army and that was not our job and that he shouldn't

21     interfere with these matters."

22             And then he's asked later -- I won't read it out again, but

23     I read it to you in the interview that whether he repeated all of the

24     details and all of that verbatim to you, and he said he did.

25             In your 2010 interview, this is 65 ter 25350, e-court page 34,

Page 42782

 1     I asked you this question:

 2             "Q.  Okay.  Just to be absolutely clear, we talked about your

 3     conversation with Vasic and whether he spoke to you in person or a

 4     message.  Did he or did he not tell you expressly that Beara had

 5     requested men for the MUP to be used for executions and that you had

 6     explicitly said no?"

 7             Your answer was:

 8             "I -- I don't think -- I cannot be sure whether Vasic told me

 9     this or was it Mane Djuric who told me this first.  I cannot really

10     remember now who was the first."

11             We only have English:

12             "Q.  One second.  But to be clear, you did know that Beara was

13     looking for or was requesting MUP people for executions, is it correct?

14             "A.  At one moment, I did learn that Beara was looking for men

15     from the MUP and that he would abuse -- in killing of these prisoners and

16     I think Mane told me this."

17             Do you stand by that?

18        A.   Now, you talk about a sequence of events.  You said that

19     I mentioned Mane -- Vasic and Mane and the meeting with Beara, so all of

20     this what you listed now does not really correspond with the actual

21     situation, and what was going on.  In Bratunac, when I -- we can't --

22     this is not --

23             JUDGE KWON:  [Microphone not activated]

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bratunac, Vasic did not report

25     to me about this possibility in this way.  On arrival to Bratunac, it was

Page 42783

 1     requested for me to meet the Crisis Staff and Deronjic.  I didn't want to

 2     meet any of them.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise for interrupting, but maybe we are

 6     entering into a very delicate situation right here.  And of course I

 7     cannot predict what question would follow this, and of course I might try

 8     to predict what Mr. Kovac's answer would be to this, but I cannot be sure

 9     about that.  Maybe it would be wise just to go to private session because

10     maybe I will be in a position to advise Mr. Kovac to use his right to --

11     for privilege against not to incriminate himself.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I be heard?

13             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think I followed Mr. Lazarevic's

14     intervention.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I understood --

16             JUDGE KWON:  I gave him the advice about his right.

17             MR. LAZAREVIC: ] Maybe I can clarify.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honour clearly advised Mr. Kovac about his

20     right when testified before this Tribunal, and of course about his right

21     not to incriminate himself with certain answers.  If need be, with this

22     line of question, we might be in a position that Mr. Kovac, through some

23     answer, might have said something which could be used against him.  This

24     is why I was intervening right this moment in order to make sure that in

25     such a situation, Your Honour closed the session.

Page 42784

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, in paragraph 124 of his statement,

 3     which he adopted today after being warned and swore to and said his

 4     answers would be the same - so it is, in fact, his testimony - he says:

 5     I was informed that prisoners from Srebrenica had been taken to Zvornik.

 6     One day, perhaps 14 July, Mane Djuric told me that Colonel Beara had

 7     requested a police unit - I'm sorry, I'm going too fast - and that

 8     Chief Vasic and Djuric worried that the unit might be used for illegal

 9     activities including liquidation of prisoners.  When I heard this,

10     I ordered the police to cease communications with the military security

11     organ and not to be invoked in any way in their -- involved - Freudian

12     slip - in any way in their activities.

13             So he was warned.  He left this in his statement and swore to it.

14     He has waived on this entire issue of what Vasic and Djuric told him

15     about Beara.  He can't go halfway into the conversation.  And this is a

16     well established principle.  I don't want to argue all the law now.  But

17     when you talk about fact X, and fact Y is directly linked to it, if you

18     didn't raise a privilege as to fact X, you've waved to fact Y.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think now the witness, Mr. Kovac, has understood

20     the situation.  It is for him to provoke his privilege against

21     self-incrimination, and he -- when he -- when he invokes that privilege

22     we will consider the matter later on.  Shall we continue.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Maybe if I ask the question again, put us back

24     where we were quickly.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, the Chamber is minded to extend your

Page 42785

 1     time so do not be pushed by time.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Take your time.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I think there is a

 6     separate issue here and which is what was being raised by Mr. Lazarevic,

 7     and that is whether evidence should be heard in private session because

 8     this Chamber can make an order under Rule 90(E) about protection of a

 9     statement.

10             JUDGE KWON:  When the witness refuses to answer the question on

11     the ground of danger of self-incrimination, we will consider that issue

12     when requested.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  All right.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So far, the witness has testified voluntarily on the

15     advice given by the Chamber.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  But if the witness is willing to

17     answer a question but believes that it would be necessary to protect his

18     rights by having an answer in private session, he should be able to do

19     that also.  It's not necessary to invoke --

20             JUDGE KWON:  That's all premature.  We haven't heard anything

21     from the witness.  And I think -- yes.  Shall we stop here and continue.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   I read out an interview where you said about Beara requesting men

24     for the MUP to be used for executions that you said, I can't be sure

25     whether Vasic told me this, or was it Mane Djuric who told me this first.

Page 42786

 1     I can't remember now who was the first.  And your other answer that, At

 2     one moment I did learn that Beara was looking for men from the MUP, and

 3     he would abuse in killing of these prisoners, and I think Mane told me

 4     this.

 5             And my question is:  Do you stand by that, that's true, that Mane

 6     or Vasic told you that Beara was looking for MUP to help execute

 7     prisoners?

 8        A.   Firstly, you have asked me ten questions in the meantime, and

 9     given answers to them too.  My stay in Bratunac, Vasic's briefing to me

10     in Bratunac, about his meeting with Vasic, I don't know what I have to

11     state my mind about, because you've brought me to five different points.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Let him continue.  I'll give you ample time.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let him continue.  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, the whole problem in the

16     testimony, it's not the problem of truth.  The problem is the attitude of

17     the OTP to me, for ten years now.  Because it's not in their interest

18     that I as someone who can give a valid testimony about the situation --

19     they simply didn't give me an opportunity and didn't allow me to because

20     they kept side tracking me.  The substance is this:  During my stay in

21     Bratunac, I did not want to meet with, nor did I meet Deronjic or Beara

22     or anyone from those Crisis Staffs.  I didn't even want to enter the

23     police station in Bratunac, because that was my official attitude.  I did

24     not want to meddle with their activities and I made Vasic clearly aware

25     of that.  I only picked up Borovcanin and Vasic and we went to Srebrenica

Page 42787

 1     to establish the police station there, and I visited the main facilities,

 2     and that was all the information I had on that day.

 3             As for the report on the meeting between Vasic and Beara about

 4     what Vasic reported to anyone, these meetings, I didn't allow him to

 5     because his stay work with them in the area covered by the centre is one

 6     thing, but linking up with Beara in any way, especially in view of my

 7     relations with that man and his service, and let me tell you also that

 8     during the war I never met Beara, he was the chief of the military

 9     security and I was the chief of the public security throughout the war,

10     the two of us never met, and there are reasons why we didn't.

11             And if you ask me whether at any moment I had, and if you want to

12     connect this you will have a clear story, if at any moment, but not on

13     that day, but perhaps two days later I was informed by the deputy chief

14     of the centre, among other things, Mane, that Beara had been looking for

15     a certain number of men, requesting them from the centre of MUP and that

16     there was a possibility that he could abuse these men.  My answer at the

17     time was fully, as I have already said, clearly, negative.  You must not

18     co-operate at any cost because it's unlawful.  You must not co-operate

19     with Beara and resubordinate men to him because it's not in accordance

20     with the law.  The law defines clearly how men can be resubordinated.

21             At the moment, seeing that, and knowing Beara, and knowing from

22     experience with that man what sort of a character he was, independently

23     from any assessment about what could happen or not, I told them then

24     because it's -- one could not exclude the possibility that this man could

25     abuse men, not only prisoners of war but anyone, because he was that sort

Page 42788

 1     of personality, I prohibited them expressly to communicate with him in

 2     any way whatsoever and have any sort of agreements with them.  And

 3     I prohibited them from co-operating with him and his service.

 4     I prohibited them to co-operate with him.  That was explicit on that day,

 5     but it wasn't on that day when I visited but a day or two later when they

 6     called me.  There is an intercept between Beara and Krstic where they

 7     state clearly that someone is not allowing them to do something.  The

 8     person who didn't allow them to do something because of the possibility

 9     that they may abuse it was myself.

10             And even though there was no need for me to close it off, up

11     until that time, but it's a matter of what happened first, what happened

12     later, and the point of view of the OTP for ten years now because you

13     feel this need to connect it all into some sort of joint criminal

14     enterprise, and something that you could not believe up until this day,

15     but there is the Chamber as well, it's in my interest too, up until this

16     moment and now as well to say it clearly.  This is precisely this

17     relation that I and the military security service had, between myself and

18     the Supreme Command, or rather, the staff of the

19     Army of Republika Srpska.  A joint criminal enterprise could never have

20     happened.  We could have made mistakes but this was not possible.

21             And it's true that I gave such orders.  And if this act that

22     I ordered them that the police should not be used for such things at any

23     cost, at the very thought that they could be used if that would be

24     incriminating for me, I am willing to accept that, in the way as I have

25     told you about it now.

Page 42789

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have your statement with you, Mr. Kovac?

 2     Paragraph 124.  Here in your statement, which you confirmed, you said:

 3             "One day, perhaps on 14th July, Mane Djuric told me that Beara

 4     had requested a police unit."

 5             And now you're saying it was one or two days later.  Are you

 6     changing your statement?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I'm not changing it.  It's

 8     just that my stay on the 14th there is one thing.  I'm not changing it.

 9     I'm just telling you that on the 14th, Mane Djuric was at the seat of the

10     centre.  He was not in Bratunac.  When I stayed in Bratunac and

11     Srebrenica I did not have this piece of information.  I learned that

12     later on in a telephone conversation with Mane Djuric so that was

13     afterwards.  Whether that was in the night between the 14th and the 15th,

14     around that period, we could find it by analysing the intercept between

15     Beara and Krstic, when exactly that took place.  You have that and it can

16     be checked and then it can be specified.  It could have been in the night

17     between the 14th and the 15th.  That was the time frame.  But I don't

18     think it was -- it wasn't on the 14th at noon.  Mane Djuric was at the

19     centre seat.  He wasn't in Bratunac or in Srebrenica.  He was in the seat

20     of the centre in Zvornik.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   Okay.  You meet Vasic in Bratunac when you arrive there on the

24     14th?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 42790

 1        Q.   He has learned from Beara, according to himself and other

 2     evidence, that Beara intends to kill the prisoners held in Bratunac.  Do

 3     you expect the chief of the Zvornik CJB, upon learning of a plan by the

 4     army to commit mass murder and requesting MUP units to help, would inform

 5     the deputy minister when he meets him that same day?

 6        A.   I don't have -- he never reported to me that he had information

 7     that Beara intended to execute prisoners of war in an organised manner.

 8     Even on that day Vasic did not talk to me about that.  On that day, he

 9     didn't talk to me about this in Bratunac.  Regardless of whether Vasic

10     stated something different from that about that day and conversation with

11     me, but he did not report to me about this.

12        Q.   All right.  While you're in Bratunac on the 14th, you meet

13     Borovcanin in a restaurant; right?

14        A.   Yes.  As I did not want to enter the police station or the

15     municipality on that day.

16        Q.   And he tells you that prisoners were liquidated, murdered, in

17     Kravica the day before; right?

18        A.   He reported to me that one of his specials had been killed and

19     that the unit commander had been wounded.  He also reported to me that an

20     incident occurred in which the prisoners had attacked the policemen who

21     were securing them and that in this incident it happened that one

22     policeman was wounded and one was killed and that a number of -- though

23     he did not specify the number, he just said that those who had launched

24     the attack, that the special policemen liquidated them.  Several --

25     several men in principle, he said there were several people, and that was

Page 42791

 1     what he reported to me.

 2        Q.   Right.  So you knew the Special Police had murdered prisoners

 3     when you were in Bratunac on the 14th.  Forget the number.  You knew that

 4     there had been a terrible war crime committed by the MUP?

 5        A.   No.  No.  At that time, I was aware of the incident that

 6     happened; namely, that prisoners had attacked MUP members who were

 7     guarding them.  That's what I was told, that an incident had occurred.

 8     One policeman was killed, one policeman was wounded, the guards had been

 9     attacked, that's the information I was given.

10        Q.   Well, when I asked you about the Kravica warehouse executions in

11     2010, not I -- but you were asked - 65 ter 25350 - in connection with the

12     Petrovic Pirocanac video taken, you said -- this is e-court pages 143 to

13     144.  And let me say one more thing, I was neither furious nor was I mad

14     that this footage had been taken.  I did not like the fact that people

15     were killed and I was mad that this happened to a MUP unit, although it

16     was under the command of the army, and we could never wash ourselves from

17     this.  This is my attitude, and I think it's correct.

18             So you agree that the MUP can never wash itself from the killings

19     at Kravica, even though it was resubordinated?

20        A.   I absolutely agree with that.

21        Q.   And just to go back to the 14th, when I read out to you how Vasic

22     had explained and testified how he immediately informed you of the plan

23     to -- Beara's plan to kill prisoners, when you arrived on the 14th, and

24     you said you weren't sure whether it was Vasic or Mane, why don't you

25     tell me it was the night of the 14th or the 15th?  And why isn't that in

Page 42792

 1     your statement for the Defence?

 2        A.   I don't see anything important in the sequence of events, but

 3     it's sure that Vasic did not inform me that day in Bratunac.  And I'm

 4     sure, as I'm testifying here, that I spoke to Mane Djuric on the phone

 5     about the fact that Beara had requested a certain number of people who

 6     were to be engaged, and their suspicions that these men could be put to

 7     wrongful use.  That was a telephone conversation with Mane Djuric.  He

 8     got my answer, and after that you have the intercept between Beara and

 9     Krstic where they clearly say that the chief of police is not giving them

10     these men.  And that is the situation that is very easy to understand.

11     It's very easy to connect the dots.  You have all the evidence led in

12     this trial and other trials.  I am here to clear that situation up.

13        Q.   That night, at 22.45 to 23.10, after your trip to the field

14     ordered by Karadzic, you meet with him in his office - that's P02242,

15     page 91, right? - the night of the 14th, 10.45 p.m.?

16        A.   Just let's get one thing clear.  I didn't go into any field

17     missions on Karadzic's order at that time.  It was not part of my work

18     style to do that.  I was not occupying the position of a commissioner or

19     something, to go into the field.  I had to set up a police station, but

20     I could have sent somebody else to do that.  The order didn't state

21     anywhere that I had to go personally, but I decided myself to go to

22     Srebrenica to set up that police station.  It was my decision.  It was

23     not that Karadzic sent me.

24        Q.   You were with him at 22.45 to 23.10.  That was the question,

25     right?  You were with him that night?

Page 42793

 1        A.   Yes.  Probably.  I believe that I was there almost every day

 2     between those hours.  Yes, yes, I was there.

 3        Q.   Because your previous statement -- I'm going to read you back

 4     again your testimony in the Jevic case; 25516, is the 65 ter number,

 5     English 24 to 25, B/C/S 25 to 26:

 6             "So I went into the field acting on orders of the president of

 7     the republic and with the intention of finding out about the situation in

 8     the town and about the state of industrial facilities."

 9        A.   The way I see it, the president issued this order.  In fact, it

10     can't be an order.  It's a legal provision that a police station should

11     be set up.  That was the instruction I received from the president, and

12     that was back on the 12th, so I issued instructions myself to set up and

13     organise a police station, and I myself went out to set up that police

14     station.  So there is no doubt that on the 14th I was in the area of

15     Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar.  I was there officially because that was

16     part of my responsibility.  I didn't go to Bratunac, and I didn't have

17     any official talks there.  That was not my job.  You know that.

18        Q.   And -- well, I don't know that, but never mind.

19        A.   Now you know.

20        Q.   The second day in a row, day two of the murder operation,

21     14 July, the day after your meeting with General Mladic, same day you met

22     with Vasic and Borovcanin, when you know and Karadzic knows that the MUP

23     has been taking a huge amount of prisoners, when you know and he knows

24     that they have been sent to Zvornik, you meet with him after coming back

25     from Srebrenica and talk about ammunition problems in Sarajevo; right?

Page 42794

 1        A.   Not only the ammunition problem in Sarajevo.  There was also a

 2     broader problem.  It was not just ammunition.  It was a problem with the

 3     entire theatre of war.  It's very hard to explain now in response to your

 4     question how Srebrenica was connected with Sarajevo.  Tactically, the

 5     attack of Muslims on Sarajevo and Srebrenica were connected, and my

 6     responsibility was Sarajevo; whereas the other people who were there

 7     clearly had some responsibility for Srebrenica and others simply assumed

 8     that responsibility of their own initiative.

 9        Q.   How many other days in the war can you tell me or point to

10     reports of the Special Police taking, you know, over a thousand

11     prisoners, with the number increasing?

12        A.   Do you have the reports of the special unit?  Because I don't

13     have them, except that one which you showed which they drafted by chance.

14     And even concerning that report, I was not able to recollect it.  A

15     special brigade did not send reports throughout.  You have that one.  Do

16     you have any others?  Because I don't know.  If you have them, help me

17     out.

18        Q.   How about answering the question?  How many other days of war can

19     you tell me or point me to -- let's just say you're learning

20     Special Police are taking numbers of prisoners, of a thousand, with the

21     number increasing.

22        A.   Well, I wouldn't agree with this statement that the

23     Special Police unit took prisoners.  They didn't take any prisoners.  It

24     was a joint operation, a military operation, in which they participated.

25     I cannot accept that the special unit took prisoners.  So I cannot point

Page 42795

 1     out to any other -- any other days in the war.  Do you mean Srebrenica?

 2     Do you mean other theatres of war?  What am I supposed to compare it to?

 3        Q.   You as deputy minister who was in the field, who was with

 4     Borovcanin, who received that report, as you sit here today in 2013, you

 5     can't agree that the Special Police took prisoners on 13 July?

 6        A.   The special unit and the people who were resubordinated to the

 7     army took prisoners, as did others who were resubordinated.  They took

 8     prisoners and turned them over to the security organ.  What happened

 9     later, we all know.  Nobody is disputing that.

10        Q.   Nobody is disputing, let's go to that.  Nobody is disputing.  We

11     all know that the VRS carried out mass executions of prisoners following

12     the fall of Srebrenica; right?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Now, 14 July, night of the 14th into the 15th, you spent the

15     night -- this isn't in your statement.  You don't go into 14th and 15th

16     night -- morning of the 15th.  You're back at the Vidikovac; right?  You

17     said that in your interviews.  You got the rash in Srebrenica?  Do you

18     want me to refresh your memory?

19        A.   If the rash is important, yes, it's probably so.  I was making

20     way through Zeleni Jadar and many destroyed farms and the police station.

21        Q.   The rash isn't important.  It's just to help you remember.

22     Because you said in your 2003 interview, ten years ago -- this is

23     65 ter 22146, at English pages 120 to 121, and B/C/S page 136.  In this

24     context:

25             "Okay, what happened next on the 14 July?"

Page 42796

 1             Answer from you:

 2             "I went back to Vidikovac motel, and I remember clearly that my

 3     hands were somehow covered with some kind of rash or something, because

 4     I was taking some documents from the police station to Srebrenica and

 5     they were so dirty, and I guess I had some kind of infection or something

 6     so I had a shower."

 7             And then later on in that same interview you talk about being

 8     there and on the 15th.  S on the -- does that help you remember that on

 9     the 14th you spent the night at the Vidikovac again?

10        A.   I don't know.  Maybe I was there briefly.  At that time, I was

11     moving intensively around the area every day, Vidikovac, Pale, perhaps

12     I spent a few hours there.  I probably was there, but I think I spent the

13     night between the 13th and the 14th at the Vidikovac.  That's the night

14     I spent there.  As for the other days, how much time I spent there, I

15     don't know if I stated when my memory was more fresh that I was there at

16     that time, it's probably true.  I don't know what you want to ask.  Is

17     there a particular situation you have in mind?

18        Q.   You answered that you think you were probably there, because on

19     the 14th of July, in Zvornik, in Vidikovac, where you are again after

20     coming back from Zeleni Jadar and Srebrenica, that's the big execution

21     day at Orahovac, where over a thousand prisoners who were bought to the

22     Vidikovac hotel that you stay at, are sent from there to the school in

23     Orahovac and executed.

24        A.   That is not true.  When I stayed at the Vidikovac motel -- no,

25     that's not true.  At the Vidikovac motel, there was nobody except for a

Page 42797

 1     couple of employees.  So technically, it was not possible.  It was a very

 2     small area that somebody came to Vidikovac when I was there.

 3        Q.   Let me tell you what our case is.  You've already confirmed that

 4     you spent the night of the 13th to 14th in the Vidikovac, right, 13th, to

 5     14th; right?

 6        A.   Yes, that is right.

 7        Q.   On the 14th in the morning, Vasic is in Bratunac when the huge

 8     convoy of prisoners from Bratunac is brought to Zvornik, Mane Djuric has

 9     testified -- I didn't expect to do this so I don't have the cite.  He's

10     testified that he was at the Vidikovac hotel when this group of prisoners

11     arrived.  So my point is you've got MUP at one end, MUP at the other end,

12     and you are at Vidikovac on the 14th in the morning, and at some other

13     point on the day that the prisoners arrive.  Are you telling me you

14     didn't know the prisoners arrived at the Vidikovac hotel on the

15     14th of July, 1995, from Bratunac?

16        A.   It's impossible that they came to Vidikovac hotel.  Vidikovac

17     hotel has a surface of just a couple of hundred square metres and several

18     rooms.  They could have passed by the hotel on their way to the barracks

19     in Zvornik.  I believe that is completely untrue.

20        Q.   Let me be clear.  They didn't come and check in.  They didn't

21     stay the night.  They were on buses and trucks parked there because there

22     is a big, broad parking lot in front of the Vidikovac hotel and they

23     stayed along the road.  My point is that was the end point for the

24     convoy, not that they got off the buses and trucks and went into the

25     hotel.  Do you not know that, that the convoy went to the Vidikovac?

Page 42798

 1        A.   No.  No.  And it couldn't have been their end point.  The end

 2     point could have been only the barracks of Zvornik.  There is a

 3     thoroughfare outside the Vidikovac hotel.  What you're putting to me has

 4     absolutely nothing to do with reality.  You keep trying to connect these

 5     things.

 6        Q.   Let me be clear.  I don't mean it's the end point or the end of

 7     their journey.  The end of their journey are the various execution sites

 8     they are murdered at.  What I mean is they come from Bratunac to Zvornik,

 9     that's where the convoy stops at the Vidikovac hotel, and from there,

10     they are shipped out in buses and trucks to Orahovac, Kozluk, Pilica,

11     places like that.  You didn't know that?

12        A.   That is not true.  At that place, Vidikovac hotel, that from that

13     place they were shipped out -- no, no, they were at the barracks, and at

14     that parking lot, that was not doable.  Vidikovac motel is at the entry

15     to the town of Zvornik.  Whether somebody stopped these buses before they

16     were allowed to go into town, what the army did, I don't know.  But this

17     connection that you are trying to make with the shipping out of people

18     from these buses and the very few men from MUP who were there, that

19     connection is not possible.  That is not true.  People from MUP were at

20     Vidikovac, not people from the army.  And those MUP men were dealing with

21     completely different things.  You cannot connect this facility with any

22     of that business.  It's pure insinuation, innuendo on your part.

23        Q.   Let me ask you something that's not pure insinuation or innuendo

24     on my part, which is the evidence in this case, that when the prisoners

25     on buses arrived at the school in Orahovac, where they stayed briefly

Page 42799

 1     before being murdered 700 metres away, there were escorts on those buses

 2     that were civilian MUP police, some of whom were from Zvornik.

 3        A.   I don't know about that.  I don't know that policemen were the

 4     escorts.  I have no reports to that effect.  That they were brought to be

 5     executed and escorted by policemen, I don't know that.  That could not

 6     have happened, that policemen should have done that, that they had

 7     participated in this.  That's impossible.  That they guarded the buses up

 8     to the town of Zvornik or whatever point they were turned over to the

 9     army where the triage of prisoners was effected, that's quite possible.

10     It was quite normal for police escorts to be provided during transport

11     but that policemen were involved in taking prisoners to execution sites,

12     that could not have happened.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, may I just make a cite to what I was

14     referring to.  That's P00379.  T6446, 6449, 6475 to 6476 of the

15     transcript pages of that exhibit.

16        Q.   Well:

17             "That they guarded the buses up to the town of Zvornik or

18     whatever point they were turned over to the army where the triage of

19     prisoners was effected, that's quite possible.  It was quite normal ..."

20             Is it quite possible and quite normal that the police escort, the

21     buses to Zvornik, when the chief of the Zvornik centre, Vasic, is in

22     Bratunac, and he's just spoken with Beara and he's just spoken with

23     Deronjic and he knows that they are all being sent to Zvornik to be

24     murdered, is it still okay to escort them?

25        A.   I don't know whether Vasic knew at that time that they were all

Page 42800

 1     going to be murdered.  I don't believe that's true.  And I don't think

 2     the police would have ever guarded any convoy in which some people were

 3     intended for killing.  We are talking about Zvornik here.  They had clear

 4     instructions from the army, and the army was organising and doing

 5     everything, that the prisoners -- in fact the buses who were coming to

 6     pick them up, would go exclusively to the barracks in Zvornik.

 7     I explicitly asked them about that.  And it's quite normal for prisoners

 8     to be directed to a military installation, the barracks in Zvornik.  And

 9     that is the information that was available.

10        Q.   Okay, very quickly before the break, 15 July, 16.15 to sometime

11     17.40 something, this is P02242, page 92, you meet with Karadzic again.

12     That's in his diary and we've already discussed that you met him on those

13     days.  Now, by your own testimony just a little while ago, today, you

14     said, moving it later, that it was, you think, the night between 14th and

15     the 15th that you heard from Mane Djuric about Beara's requesting MUP to

16     participate in executions.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

18             JUDGE KWON:  What objection is it, Mr. Karadzic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Esteemed Mr. Nicholls is really

20     making great efforts, and I appreciate them because he's doing even more

21     than necessary, but it was really not said that Mane Djuric had been

22     informed that these men would be participating in executions.  It was

23     just said that Beara requested them, and execution is not the only

24     possible misuse in this context.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think that's a proper intervention.  I don't

Page 42801

 1     know what the intervention was.  Please carry on.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:

 3        Q.   You've already said that the 15 July -- never mind.  You meet

 4     with Karadzic on the 14th or 15th.  You've been informed, according to

 5     your own statement to the Defence and to what you testified here to

 6     today, about this request from Beara to use MUP for executions or -- and

 7     you don't raise that with the president, with the Supreme Commander.  You

 8     don't say as the highest law enforcement official in the country, I think

 9     I ought to tell you that the army is planning to liquidate prisoners.

10        A.   I was not aware of the plan, and I don't believe the plan existed

11     for the army to liquidate prisoners.  That information that one small

12     unit of the police could be put to wrongful use did not give me a basis

13     to suggest or suppose that they could be involved in mass executions.

14             When I ordered the security centre and all the command structures

15     not to co-operate with Beara, I considered the problem solved.  What

16     I expected from him is low-level misuse, and I thought that he was

17     prepared to misuse the police, not only against the Muslims and -- but

18     also against Serbs and others, because that's the kind of man he was.

19     That's the kind of man I knew him to be.  I had no reason to believe that

20     they were planning mass executions and killings.

21        Q.   Okay.  So you protested in the beginning to the MUP being engaged

22     at all, according to you, when you meet with Karadzic on 9 July and the

23     MUP are engaged, and then you get a report from the deputy in Zvornik

24     that he thinks Beara, taking it most charitably in your statement, was

25     worried that the unit might be used for illegal activities including

Page 42802

 1     liquidations of prisoners.  That's what it says in paragraph 124 of your

 2     statement.  You don't think it's important for you as the highest acting

 3     law enforcement officer to tell the president that you've just heard the

 4     Main Staff wants -- may use the MUP to execute prisoners and that you

 5     ordered them not to take part?

 6        A.   You see, I would appreciate it very much if you would refrain

 7     from making these constructions, if you want an answer from me.  I did

 8     not understand it as a request from the Main Staff.  It was conveyed to

 9     me that way, and that's the way I understood it.  I saw Beara as a petty

10     manipulator in view of what he had done before, a man bent on crime, who

11     was involved in crimes against the Serbs in the past.  I had no idea that

12     he was capable of such great evil.  Whereas you have a different

13     perspective.  You are looking at it with 18 years' hindsight.  You know

14     how things happened.  I, at the time, was involved in operations around

15     Sarajevo and I had only as much information as reached me at the time.

16     I was unable physically and legally to deal with army things, and I must

17     say also in their defence that up to that time, our army had never acted

18     in contravention of all the international conventions and the law.  I had

19     no reason to believe that they would begin then.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a break?  Will we need the next

21     witness for today?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  It would be nice if we could reach him but can we

23     find out how much longer you're going to allow the Prosecution to --

24             JUDGE KWON:  It also may depend on how much time Mr. Karadzic is

25     going to use.

Page 42803

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, if we can have some indication from how much

 2     the Prosecution will use, we can calculate that.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's very hard to say, but I think approximately

 4     45 minutes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We will release the next witness.  We will have a

 6     break for 45 minutes and resume at quarter past 1.00.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Just briefly at page 64,

14     line 21 today, I referred to a part of Mane Djuric's testimony and said

15     I didn't have the cite at the time because I wasn't expecting to use it.

16     That was 7 March 2013, at T35041 to 35043, that I was thinking of.

17        Q.   Okay.  I want to now ask you again, talking about your meetings

18     with President Karadzic on 14, 15, July, okay?  That's what I'm talking

19     about.  Understand?  That's what my next question will be about.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, we asked you, you were asked in 2010 in your interview,

22     65 ter 25350, at e-court page 43, in the context of why you did not

23     discuss murders and Beara's request with Karadzic during your meetings,

24     and you were asked this question:

25             "So let me get this straight.  Is the reason you are saying that

Page 42804

 1     you did not discuss or protest to the president what was happening with

 2     the army killing people was because you thought he already knew from all

 3     these other sources?"

 4             And your answer was:

 5             "This is crystal clear, because he had Bajagic, who knew

 6     everything.  He had Deronjic.  He received all the information that he

 7     needed from them.  He had the entire nomenclature there, people who knew

 8     everything and controlled everything."

 9             Do you stand by that statement?

10        A.   I absolutely stand by that statement, that they could have

11     informed him about Srebrenica itself, because Deronjic and other

12     structures of military security, in particular, were directly involved in

13     the processes that were evolving in the area.  I meant in official terms;

14     that is to say the Main Staff, the service, Deronjic.  They were

15     duty-bound to inform him about everything that was going on there.

16        Q.   Let me ask you a question, this is about your testimony under

17     oath in the Mitrovic case, 65 ter 25515, e-court page 43 of the English,

18     B/C/S 52.  This is speaking about your trip to Bratunac on the 14th:

19             "Defence counsel Jaksic:  You said that you did not meet with the

20     civilian leadership.  Did you meet with Mr. Deronjic who had been

21     appointed civilian commissioner for Srebrenica municipality?  Perhaps

22     I might make a slight mistake in the name of this appointment.  Did you

23     have an opportunity to meet Mr. Deronjic?

24             "Witness Kovac:  I did not meet with him, nor did I wish to meet

25     with him.

Page 42805

 1             Defence counsel Jaksic:  Why didn't you wish to meet with him?"

 2             Witness Kovac, your answer:

 3             "Well I had fought for years against these para-Crisis Staffs,

 4     these para-commissioners, and para-authorities, para-police forces, and

 5     I simply saw that these days he greatly intensified his contacts with the

 6     president, intensively providing him information, from security

 7     information to all other kinds.  And I always knew what that was leading

 8     to."

 9             And I'll stop reading there.  Do you stand by that testimony you

10     gave?

11        A.   I absolutely stand by that being my attitude, but I was not

12     officially in charge of meeting with him.  I did not have an official

13     task to meet with him or an official duty.  But my attitude towards local

14     structures, towards people, that is to say these ad hoc functions, well,

15     I don't know whether it's right or not, but that was the attitude I had

16     throughout the war, and that's why I could never be appointed minister

17     formally through the assembly.

18        Q.   Okay.  And you also agree with the part where you say about

19     Mr. Deronjic:  And I simply saw in these days he greatly intensified his

20     contacts with the president, intensively providing him with information.

21     Were you telling the truth when you testified there to that?

22        A.   I saw that he came.  Now, what kind of talks he had with the

23     president, I don't know.  I don't know -- I don't know about the content

24     of his talks with the president.  But I did see him come because in

25     certain time intervals, he appeared in the president's office, when

Page 42806

 1     I came.

 2        Q.   Okay.  My point is you stand by that prior testimony you gave

 3     under oath - yes or no? - with the explanations you've given?

 4        A.   I stand by him having come to the president, but I don't know

 5     about the content of the information that he gave.  I can assume that he

 6     informed him about the situation, he certainly informed him about the

 7     situation in Srebrenica, but I am not aware of the content.

 8        Q.   All right.  In September 1995, you allegedly carry out your own

 9     investigation into Srebrenica events as requested by Jovica Stanisic;

10     right?

11        A.   Well, did you have an opportunity of hearing Jovica on that?

12     I would not say allegedly.  I did not carry out an investigation on the

13     basis of the law because I was not in a position to do so, but I did

14     collect information about that event.

15        Q.   And you found out then and confirmed that Mladic and Beara had

16     had prisoners killed.  You knew that in September 1995?

17        A.   At the time, at that time, I had unverified information; That is

18     to say from certain people in certain structures, that first of all

19     Beara, Beara, Beara was the operative, and I think that the main

20     ideologue too, of the execution of the prisoners and this entire

21     situation that happened in the Srebrenica action.

22        Q.   Okay.  This is your 2010 interview, 65 ter 25350, e-court

23     pages 75 to 76, you were asked about this September 1995 investigation.

24     And you answer a question saying you were asked to investigate whether

25     any Serb forces took part in the fall of Srebrenica.  That's not what my

Page 42807

 1     question was about, whether any Serb forces took part.  You were asked:

 2             "Okay, when was this conveyed to you?"

 3             Your answer:

 4             "Somewhere in September 1995."

 5             Question:

 6             "And that's when everybody knew that thousands of prisoners had

 7     been executed?"

 8             And your answer was:

 9             "Probably, probably everyone knew.  I did."

10             You were telling the truth; right?

11        A.   Well, I said that I knew, and my statement probably could be that

12     I do not have any confirmation as to who knew and to what extent.  Let me

13     be precise, at the end of September and October up until mid-November,

14     all the time I carried out operative investigations as to the causes,

15     where the orders had come from for the overall operation, whether there

16     were any forces from Serbia present there.  So these were the basic

17     global elements that Mr. Stanisic was interested in because he said to me

18     that he was preparing for the Dayton conference.

19        Q.   You're going well beyond the answer.  Thank you.

20             And you were also asked this in the same interview at page 81.

21     During this investigation, you sent people to do this investigation.  Did

22     you send them also to the field to check possible execution sites?  Here

23     was your answer:

24             "No, there was no need for that.  I asked my operatives to

25     conduct investigation.  There was no need for them to go to the possible

Page 42808

 1     execution sites because I needed answers to the questions who issued an

 2     order to kill these people and how this did -- how did this order come

 3     about, and also how did the order to attack Srebrenica come about."

 4             Question:

 5             "Okay."

 6             Answer:

 7             "This is the part I'm interested in.  This is the only question.

 8     Of course, the locations, the site of the executions were known at the

 9     time.  And that is why there was no need to conduct an investigation to

10     this extent."

11             Do you stand by that answer where you said you didn't send

12     anybody to check execution sites because they were already known?

13        A.   Well, no, no, because already in the stage of operative gathering

14     of information, it was secret.  To identify the execution sites

15     specifically would open entirely new dimensions and would go beyond my

16     powers, and in that stage I was not dealing with that.  You know, that

17     was the first stage.  You know that in every stage, first of all, you

18     collect operative information, and only then you carry out further

19     preparations for official reporting and official proposals as to which

20     organs are supposed to be involved.  And then this operative activity of

21     mine stopped.

22        Q.   Stop.  This is what you said, talking about September 1995.  Of

23     course, the locations, the sites of the executions were known at the

24     time.  And that is why there was no need to conduct an investigation to

25     this extent.  You said yesterday you clearly told the truth in your

Page 42809

 1     interviews.  Were you telling the truth or lying when you said here that

 2     the execution sites were known at the time, September 1995?

 3        A.   I just tell the truth, but you put questions that no matter what

 4     I say by way of a response, it turns out that I'm not telling the truth.

 5     Now, this is one thing.  If I collected information for me, then this

 6     information was collected for me.  And at that moment, in that initial

 7     stage, because I myself personally dealt with this collecting of

 8     information, so partly this was known and other things that I was

 9     supposed to gather, well, we were supposed to conduct interviews with

10     important protagonists and secretly at that because this would have been

11     a threat to their lives and --

12        Q.   Stop.  Again, of course, the locations, the sites of the

13     executions, were known at the time and that -- and that is why there was

14     no need to conduct an investigation to this extent.  That was an answer

15     to a question whether you sent anybody to look at the execution sites.

16     Your answer was:

17             "Of course the locations, the sites of the executions, were known

18     at the time."

19             So my question is:  Were you telling the truth at that time in

20     September 1995, you knew where the execution sites were?

21        A.   Well, you see, you are changing theses now.  What -- there is

22     this one operative gathering information for me and this secret operative

23     gathering information.  Now you're changing positions as if there were

24     some public investigation going on, and --

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure you understood.  This is what you told

Page 42810

 1     to the investigator during your interview.  I'll read it to you.  Just

 2     hear.  This is your answer:

 3             "Of course the locations, the sites of the executions, were known

 4     at the time."

 5             Do you confirm having said that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way -- I mean what I meant.  So

 7     if there is secret operative gathering of information, that was done for

 8     me and a third person, that is secret.  And now this is as if something

 9     was known publicly so it wasn't operatives that went in the direction of

10     checking that, because this part of the information is something

11     I already had; that is to say, I had this through direct contacts so this

12     operation of operative gathering was carried out by me and a few other

13     operatives.  That's what I meant.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Whether it was a secret operative or not, you knew

15     the locations of execution sites?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I worked on the direct

17     gathering of information, at the time I received information from certain

18     persons concerning a few of these important sites, so I had this

19     information within this gathering of information.  That's why the

20     operatives did not go into that direction.  It's not that something was

21     publicly known about these locations:

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   Stop talking about the public.  I'm asking if you knew as you

24     stated here -- and you stated before that you told the truth in the

25     interviews.  Did you know about the locations of the execution sites,

Page 42811

 1     you, Tomo Kovac, in September 1995?

 2        A.   At the end of September, I personally received information and

 3     I then knew what the execution sites were.  And that is why I did not

 4     send operatives and I did not expose these people to security risks, to

 5     work on that.  I think that this matter is clear.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?  Known.

 7     That means in public.  That's it.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Now it's clear.  So the question was whether the

 9     witness knew and he confirmed.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:

11        Q.   You were minister at that point, not deputy minister, right, in

12     September 1995.  You'd been promoted.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   The same interview, page 64, you were asked why you did not tell

15     Karadzic about this investigation you were carrying out.  And you said:

16     I cannot explain why I didn't tell him.  And then you go on.  And what

17     I want to know is why, as minister of the interior of Republika Srpska,

18     in September 1995, you did not, according to you, discuss the locations

19     of the execution sites with the Supreme Commander, President Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask to have the original in

21     Serbian shown to the witness?  There is no reason for him to look at the

22     English version.  I need the original too.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I think the interview is transcribed only in

24     English.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct, Your Honour.

Page 42812

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Probably there may exist the audio tape if they want

 2     it.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

 4        Q.   In any event, forget the transcript.  Forget what I read out to

 5     you.  Let's keep it really simple.  You've already said why in

 6     September 1995, as the highest law enforcement official in the Republika

 7     Srpska, did you not discuss, tell, the President of Republika Srpska

 8     about the locations of execution sites?

 9        A.   Well, let me -- if you allow me to say -- this operative

10     investigation started at the end of 1995, or, rather, the end of

11     September 1995.  I did not complete it.  My activity on that stopped on

12     21 November 1995, after the accident I had with the military vehicle in

13     Vlasenica, when I had a concussion and when my escort was killed.  If you

14     know everything, you must have that report from the hospital too.  My

15     operative investigation stopped then and soon after that I was replaced.

16     So I'm looking at September and October.  And we are talking about this

17     secret investigation.  We are not talking about any kind of official

18     investigation.  We are talking about a delicate investigation, and all

19     the people who took part in this had their lives in danger at the time.

20             So, please, do not put things that way to me, that I'm doing

21     that.  It is certain that had I stayed on there and further on in some

22     other stages after that, this would have reached the president of the

23     republic too, but I already told you how I conducted and ended my work at

24     the ministry.

25        Q.   Okay.  So let's just make it clear.  This is the kind of

Page 42813

 1     policeman you are, this is the kind of career policeman you are, this is

 2     the kind of minister of the interior of Republika Srpska, that you know

 3     about execution sites and you don't even, according to you, tell the

 4     president of your own state.

 5        A.   At the time I was collecting information.  The execution sites

 6     were the end of the story, but what really mattered was the beginning,

 7     that is to say investigating what happened.  There were war operations

 8     going on beforehand, but until I entered these operative investigations,

 9     I did not know the essence, the essence of what was going on in

10     Srebrenica itself.  That was the reason for my operative investigation.

11     And if you are getting at that, if you are talking about my professional

12     career, let me tell you that it is professional for some things to be

13     investigated secretly and that you should not put people in such a

14     position that they would lose their lives on account of that.  I did that

15     for a month and you've been working at this for almost 20 years and we

16     are moving point by point to see what it is that really happened.  On the

17     other hand, this was --

18        Q.   I think you've answered.  Here is something you said -- well,

19     never mind, never mind.

20             Could I have P00164.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I think it appeared in this transcript of interview

22     briefly but I think it's important to put on record in this hearing as

23     well why the witness didn't tell Mr. Karadzic at the time as to the

24     initiation of his secret investigation.  Could you tell us why?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it would not be a serious --

Page 42814

 1     well, first of all, I did not think -- actually, at first, when

 2     collecting certain information, especially in this kind of situation,

 3     I did not think --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let me put you a question more directly.  You said

 5     that that -- secret operative investigation was triggered upon the

 6     request of Stanisic, who is the secret chief of Republic of Serbia,

 7     different country.  If I were in your position, I would immediately

 8     inform your president that such request was forwarded, requested, by

 9     Stanisic, before you start the secret investigation.  Why did you not

10     tell Mr. Karadzic at the time?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stanisic asked first and foremost

12     to have the following clarified:  Whether there were any forces of Serbia

13     that had taken part in this, whether there were any police or military

14     force that is had taken part in this action.  That was the main thing

15     that he was after.  That was the main thing that he was after.

16             On the other hand, he also wanted to know who had issued the

17     order.  Of course, as I worked on this, I extended it to the overall

18     activity involved.  Stanisic had a special role.  He needed this for --

19     for the peace, for Dayton, because he was in charge of preparing the

20     Dayton agreement.  If you can recall, the Dayton agreement, during the

21     preparations for the Dayton agreement, Serbia was officially involved -

22     and how? - and its organs, including Stanisic, who was officially in

23     charge of the preparation itself.  That is one reason.

24             The second reason is that I, in some other stage, I would have

25     certainly informed Karadzic not as a secret report.  It would be -- it

Page 42815

 1     would have been an official report.  However, I did not have the time to

 2     do that because I was dismissed in the meantime.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So was it a kind of treason on your part against

 4     Mr. Karadzic, who was your superior?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think it was treason.

 6     Quite simply I thought that this was the first stage in the methodology

 7     of our work.  I never betrayed him throughout the war so I wouldn't have

 8     betrayed him then either.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A small omission in the transcript

13     leads to a misunderstanding.  The witness said I did not have the time to

14     finish that.  That is to say he didn't have time to finish the

15     investigation, and he was dismissed in the meantime, and that's why he

16     didn't report.  However, in the transcript that is missing in line 16.

17     He didn't have the time to finish that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kovac, do you confirm having said so?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can also be listened to.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Yes, back to you, Mr. Nicholls.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   All right.  This is President Karadzic's April 1996 order to

25     conduct -- April 1996 order to conduct an investigation to be carried out

Page 42816

 1     at the locations where the victims -- where victims of the armed conflict

 2     in and around Srebrenica are to be found.

 3             Now, you were asked if you ever started -- in your 2003

 4     interview, you were asked -- I would like to ask you -- this is at

 5     e-court pages 133 to 134, B/C/S 151 to 153.  133 should be at the moment,

 6     151.  We don't necessarily need to bring it up.  I would like ask you if

 7     you remember that such an order has been sent by the president on the 1st

 8     of April, 1996, the president of the republic, answer:  That later what

 9     was done was laundering or justifying.  Why had not such an order been

10     sent in July or August of 1995?

11             Then you were shown this document.  Investigator says:  I'll show

12     you ERN 00442407.  That's the document that's in front of you.  Do you

13     have any comments about this order?  And you said:  I do.  What I can say

14     is, as you see I don't have many documents with me, I never tried to put

15     aside some documents.  And you go on.  And then you say:  But so all of

16     these post event documents that were created were just some kind of a

17     cover-up document or, again, laundering documents.  If I had been

18     president of the republic I would have known what to do it, and all of

19     these things that happened afterwards are just a big shame and damage to

20     my own people.  And it's just a shame, a damage to everything that we

21     were fighting for.  And if there is any responsibility that needs to be,

22     there needs to be the individual one.  Instead of this order that he

23     issued, he should have issued an order to arrest Mladic, to lock him up.

24             Do you stand by that statement?

25        A.   Just to clarify, when the president of the republic is forced --

Page 42817

 1     what did I mean by laundering?  When the president of the republic is

 2     forced only in April to issue an order, and before that, the government

 3     organs, the military organs, and other government organs did not

 4     officially start, though they were obliged by law to begin prosecution

 5     and establishing this.  This is what I experienced in 1992, also, that

 6     they were doing the same things to the president, and there were some

 7     other things that I issued.  If I had been a minister he wouldn't have

 8     had any need for such an order.  But that would have been done

 9     officially, officially prosecuted and done.  And the president

10     substantially was the last instance who issued an order to them to do

11     some things.  In fact, he was trying to launder these organs and

12     encourage them to do their work which they had failed to do.  That was my

13     view, both in 1992, and then and now.

14        Q.   And that's why you called it a cover-up document?

15        A.   No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not covering up.  I think

16     that it was wrong.  You cannot cover up something for which you issue a

17     public order.  But what's the point here and about my position towards

18     the judiciary organs?  They are responsible because they had enough time.

19     April was too late.  They should have reacted earlier.  The military

20     security, the military judiciary, the military prosecutor's office and

21     civilian organs also, whoever could collect any information, they should

22     have also taken some official legal action, from bottom up towards the

23     president, rather than the other way around, from the president towards

24     them.  So this is how I view this as a professional.  Now, I don't know

25     whether what you -- this is already 1996.  I wasn't there then, but I did

Page 42818

 1     state my judgement about everything and I also said what I would have

 2     done.

 3        Q.   Yeah.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  65 ter number for the 2003 interview, Mr. Nicholls?

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  22146.  Again page 133 of the English, and, if I'm

 6     right, it starts on 151 of the Serbian.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:

 9        Q.   So that's what you mean by instead of this order that he issued,

10     which you earlier called a cover-up, he should have issued the order to

11     arrest Mladic to lock him up, by that you meant to convey to the

12     investigator -- this is just like 1992.  The organs below the president

13     aren't doing their work.  That's what that sentence was meant to convey?

14     That's your testimony?

15        A.   Correct.  All the organs which are listed here as addressees from

16     the president who were obliged by law to do all this and who are ordered

17     now by him to do that, they should have done their work before that and

18     they should have sent reports to the president upon completion of their

19     work.  Here we have the opposite situation, and the fall of the

20     government or the state, because, once again, this returns him back to

21     1992, with this sort of attitude, because this order was not issued just

22     like that but precisely because these organs did not function.  And

23     through this order, in fact, he turned out that he was covering up their

24     failure to work.  I would have acted differently.  I would have asked for

25     a different kind of responsibility.  But, certainly, the president is a

Page 42819

 1     politician and I'm looking at this as a lawyer and as a policeman, how

 2     I would have dealt with this.

 3        Q.   Okay.  We agree, as you sit -- well, strike that.

 4             Are you aware of any investigation by the RS MUP -- well, let me

 5     strike that.

 6             You know there was no investigation by the RS MUP, official

 7     investigation, into Srebrenica events in July, August, September,

 8     October, November, 1995; right?

 9        A.   No.  There wasn't, not an official one.  We could not do that.

10     There was no possibility because of the war, and we did not have the

11     powers, but regardless of the powers or authority, I started this in

12     1995.  And you know --

13        Q.   Stop.  You answered.  There wasn't any.  I want to show you one.

14     Could I have P06426.  I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this, but

15     this is an interview with you.  David Rhode was prosecuted in

16     Republika Srpska, investigated by state security, Goran Radovic, who you

17     know, and others, arrested, charged and eventually pardoned by the

18     president.  And in this press conference in November, you were asked

19     about David Rhode, and I'll let you read it.  I'm not going to read it

20     all out, but you said:

21             "David Rhode has been arrested primarily due to false --

22     primarily due to false documents and unauthorised entry into Republika

23     Srpska.  And, please, that does not mean we are against journalists

24     visiting our territories, but we are against the spies having

25     journalists' passage."

Page 42820

 1             I'll skip a sentence:

 2             "Your colleague was performing the most difficult form of

 3     espionage for which the sentence from 3 to 15 years of prison is foreseen

 4     in Republika Srpska in peacetime.  So consider it yourselves."

 5             I'll skip a sentence:

 6             "We will not and we cannot accept people who are working outside

 7     of their journalist etiquette and openly against my people and this

 8     state."

 9             And then you said David Rhode was lucky.  So this is when you're

10     minister of the interior, this is when you know about the mass

11     executions, and your MUP, the only Prosecution it's done for Srebrenica,

12     is of a journalist who took photos of the Pilica dam execution site and

13     tried to find out what had happened; right?

14        A.   No.  Not in the way it's formulated in your question.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, he takes pictures -- and I'm not going to go through

16     the whole court file.  Some of it is in evidence.  He takes pictures of

17     the dam and of the area around Orahovac and he's arrested.  And for

18     trying to show where execution sites are, you say he openly -- working

19     openly against your people and the state.

20        A.   The services -- I cannot remember much about this event and I'm

21     not sure that journalists or newspapers, especially "Oslobodjenje"

22     reported in an adequate manner my views.  For me, at the time, this was

23     just a short information and an unimportant event.  So that the only

24     thing that this could have happened was the legal action against him,

25     against this journalist, so I did not get especially involved in this.

Page 42821

 1     It was a matter for the State Security Service.  I didn't issue an order

 2     for his arrest or his release or anything.  It just followed its normal

 3     course.  So I cannot say anything particular about this, that I was

 4     involved in such cases in that period.  This was the legal procedure.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I misspoke, I'm sorry, at line 20

 6     page 86, I said "Pilica dam," I meant "Petkovci dam."  Nothing further at

 7     the moment.

 8                           Questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Before I ask Mr. Karadzic to re-examine you, I have

10     a couple of questions.  Shall we show him the 2010 interview, page 43,

11     25350.  There may be no point because it's in English.  It's a

12     conversation why you did not tell Mr. Karadzic about the protest or

13     the -- about the Beara's request to use some MUP forces for illegal

14     activities including liquidation, et cetera, and so why you didn't tell

15     Mr. Karadzic when you met him on 13th, 14th, 15th.  Do you remember

16     having discussed that?  So I'll read out --

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I'll read out the passage:

19             "So let me get this straight, is the reason you are saying that

20     you did not discuss or protest to the president what was happening with

21     the army killing people because you thought he already knew from all

22     these other sources?"

23             Other sources you discussed Bajagic or other people, Deronjic,

24     and this is your answer as recorded, and you confirmed that, I quote:

25             "This is crystal clear because he had Bajagic who knew

Page 42822

 1     everything.  He had Deronjic.  He received all the information that he

 2     needed from them.  Also, he had the entire nomenclature there, people who

 3     knew everything and controlled everything."

 4             So you testified today that you stood by that statement.  You

 5     remember that, Mr. Kovac?

 6        A.   I remember.  But just to make myself clear, my statement that he

 7     had those who could have informed him, not that I know that they did

 8     inform him.  They could have reported to him about all events that they

 9     had information about.  And the reason -- another reason why I did not

10     believe about Beara's act was that at that moment I didn't -- because

11     I prevented the police from getting involved, I did not have any

12     information that he did do it.  I had the information that they could

13     have been abused.  That was the reason in that short interval why I had

14     no reported to President Karadzic about this.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I'll read out again to you what was said, the

16     question by the investigator:

17             "Because you thought he already knew from all these other

18     sources?"

19             And your answer:

20             "This is crystal clear."

21        A.   Once again, to make myself clear, it's completely clear that he

22     had sources to obtain information from, and whether specifically he knew

23     that Beara, that I believed that someone had reported to him that Beara

24     had requested police in order to commit the execution of prisoners, not

25     that.  So it's crystal clear that he had sources of information which

Page 42823

 1     were supposed to inform him about everything.  But I didn't -- I don't

 2     know how this was interpreted nor did I think that he did receive this

 3     specific information, that Beara shot prisoners.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  My second question is about your

 5     statement in your witness statement tendered today by Mr. Karadzic, but I

 6     will allow you to read that statement later on, if necessary, and that

 7     means you do not need to consult that statement at the moment.  At

 8     certain point -- part of your statement, you referred to your meeting

 9     with Mr. Karadzic in the spring of 1996, where you discussed the -- about

10     what happened or the crimes following the fall of Srebrenica, and

11     Mr. Karadzic expressed his disappointment.  Do you remember having said

12     that?  It's --

13        A.   Yes, yes, yes, yes.  That was in spring, I think in April, March

14     or April, thereabouts.  I mean, that was an unofficial conversation.

15     I wasn't still working in the ministry, or, rather, not working but

16     I wasn't in a position, so this was an unofficial visit to the president.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell us in concrete terms what you

18     discussed with Mr. Karadzic?  What did he say and what did you say?

19     Please let us know the conversation, in concrete terms.

20        A.   Well, I was on an informal visit.  After a while, I appeared for

21     the first time again, and in addition to a series of other questions in

22     an informal conversation, I believe that at some point I touched on the

23     army and Beara and their conduct.  That was a brief reaction on the part

24     of the president.  He was dissatisfied.  He said that they had

25     jeopardised the state, and that was all that we exchanged, to the best of

Page 42824

 1     my recollection of the time.  It wasn't any kind of official

 2     conversation.  It was unofficial.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I know it's an unofficial conversation after

 4     your dismissal.  You said you touched on the army and Beara and their

 5     conduct.  Could you be more specific as to what you said to Mr. Karadzic,

 6     in real -- in concrete terms?  Please be as specific as possible, as far

 7     as you remember.

 8        A.   Well, it was concrete about their -- their attitude at that time

 9     and the previous time, their attitude to the president and his orders,

10     and at one point I touched on -- I touched on his -- in fact, his conduct

11     in the Srebrenica area and what he did with the prisoners of war.

12     I could see from the conversation that the President Karadzic was already

13     aware of that because that was the end of March or April 1996.  I didn't

14     tell him anything new at the time.  I just remember his reaction that he

15     reacted to them by saying that they were negating the state by such an

16     attitude, and that was all the conversation we had about this topic.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Who was "he," when you said his conduct, his orders,

18     and his conduct in the Srebrenica area, what he did with the prisoners.

19     Who was he?  Mladic?

20        A.   No, I had primarily Beara in mind.  He was in the focus of my

21     attention, but, of course, in all this, in everything that was going on,

22     certainly Mladic's responsibility was great, as the commander, that he

23     allowed all this.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So by this time, you already knew the locations of

25     execution sites because you came to know as a result of your secret

Page 42825

 1     operative investigation in the previous year?  So I take it you must have

 2     discussed it with Mr. Karadzic.

 3        A.   With my replacement, there was no need for me or wish for me to

 4     do anything any longer officially.  I was just telling you about this

 5     informal conversation, and we did not discuss the execution sites.  We

 6     just briefly touched on the army but we did not discuss the execution

 7     site and I realised that this process was ongoing and that the president

 8     was informed at the point.  It was March or April.  So I had the

 9     impression that he was aware about this process of clearing up everything

10     about Srebrenica.  But as I say, I was there only for a short while, on

11     an informal visit, and after that, once again, I left Republika Srpska

12     and I went to Belgrade where I had already been living.

13             JUDGE KWON:  And you said in your statement that Mr. Karadzic

14     expressed disappointment.  Why was he disappointed?  For what?

15        A.   Well, this subject, the army and the command structure, is

16     something that I touched on and he was disappointed by the entire

17     structure.  He was disappointed by the structure and by their overall

18     conduct, their conduct, their attitude in general, and jeopardising the

19     state.  It was -- as I say, it was an informal conversation, and so this

20     disappointment was not only formal but also something human expressed by

21     a man who was disappointed by a group of people.  He was not disappointed

22     in the institution but it was this group of people that disappointed him.

23             JUDGE KWON:  It was in paragraph 133 of your statement, could you

24     take a look at it?  You have your statement with you, 133.  It reads like

25     this:  After a while, I discussed with President Karadzic the allegations

Page 42826

 1     about crimes following the fall of Srebrenica.  By the time -- by that

 2     time, you already knew that there were crimes, crimes were committed, but

 3     why did you put the allegations about crimes?  Why did you put

 4     allegations?  Do you deny that there were crimes?

 5        A.   No.  I don't deny.  Perhaps the word, the formulation, was

 6     imprecise.  I don't deny, no.  I did not have in mind everything that was

 7     correct, but the knowledge and the terms, "allegations," I imply

 8     everything that has already been proved through investigation, so perhaps

 9     the term was not well applied.  Perhaps the word was not a good choice.

10     Something that wasn't proved already.  But only information, information

11     about crimes, that would have been a better word, perhaps, than

12     allegations.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kovac.  I take it you have some

14     re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?  By the way, but do you think you can

15     finish your re-examination today?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies, I hope so.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I'm sorry.  I would ask for a couple

20     of follow-up questions based on Your Honour's questions on these two

21     topics, wouldn't take long.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Before the re-examination, for the benefit of the

23     Defence?

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, if I may.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll allow it.

Page 42827

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 2                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 3        Q.   Okay.  You just answered in quite detail, in quite a lot of

 4     detail, His Honour Judge Kwon's questions about para 133 of your

 5     statement, and the last sentence there is:  We did not have other talks

 6     about Srebrenica, other than this one in the spring of 1996.  I want to

 7     go over what you said on this very topic in your 2010 interview,

 8     65 ter 25350, e-court page 146, and we should maybe bring that up, even

 9     though it's only in English:

10             Question:  Did you ever discuss what happened with

11     President Karadzic?  Tomo Kovac:  About Srebrenica?  Question:  Yes.  No,

12     is the answer.  Okay.  Tomo Kovac:  Because I was not going to fall into

13     the trap.  I had some short informal conversations with him, although the

14     army should have come under the same way, duh, duh, duh.  Same interview,

15     same 65 ter number, pages 149 to 150.  Question:  Okay, you said a moment

16     ago just before we showed you the Borovcanin promotion that you never

17     spoke with Karadzic about Srebrenica, you didn't want to fall into that

18     trap because it was all under military jurisdiction.  Then you said,

19     quote, "Well I had several short conversations," quote.  So did you talk

20     to Karadzic about Srebrenica or not later on?  Question:  Officially or

21     unofficially is the next question to you.  Answer:  It was always

22     unofficially -- unofficially and it was always about Beara.  Question:

23     Okay.  When?  Next page, please.  Maybe in September 1995 in Banja Luka

24     when I was talking about Beara when Beara presented a threat.  I touched

25     upon his stupidities.  We had no other conversation than this about

Page 42828

 1     Srebrenica.  And what did Karadzic say?  Nothing.  He just made a gesture

 2     with his hand, and as if he didn't want to listen about it.  That's about

 3     it.

 4             That's what you said in 2010.  You started off your testimony by

 5     saying you were truthful in your statements, in those interviews.  You

 6     have just given a completely different account to the Presiding Judge.

 7        A.   That's not true.  I talked about Beara in September because I had

 8     the information that he was preparing a coup in Banja Luka, and it was

 9     about those circumstances of his conduct.  And while he was security

10     element in Montenegro, and he was preparing for a civil war to break out

11     among the Serbs, so that was what I was telling him about briefly, judged

12     on the operative intelligence, not that I discussed this aspect of his

13     activities and his crimes in Srebrenica, just to make myself clear.

14        Q.   [Microphone not activated] okay.  Let's see how clear it is.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:

17        Q.   So when I asked you:  So did you talk to Karadzic about

18     Srebrenica or not, later on, and you said, maybe in September, September

19     1995 in Banja Luka, we had no other conversation than this about

20     Srebrenica, you were talking about a civil war that Beara was trying to

21     start?  Is that serious?

22        A.   I don't understand what that mean.

23        Q.   I asked you if you talked about President Karadzic -- with

24     President Karadzic about Srebrenica, you said in September 1995, you

25     started bringing up Beara, and the president waved his hand like he

Page 42829

 1     didn't want to talking about it.  Were you lying to me or were you not

 2     telling the truth in court right now?  And both times you said you only

 3     talked about Srebrenica once.

 4        A.   I never said to you that I had discussed with Karadzic the crimes

 5     in Srebrenica.  I discussed Beara.  And it's not all right for you to put

 6     two questions that I'm supposed to be -- let us deal with facts and be

 7     clear.  One thing is the talk about Beara; the other thing is the talk

 8     about Srebrenica.  In the whole of Republika Srpska was under --

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you this:  Your answer was:  Maybe -- to the

10     question of whether you ever talked to about -- with Karadzic about

11     Srebrenica.  Your answer was:  Maybe in September of 1995 in Banja Luka,

12     and then you go on about Beara and being a threat.  And you say:  We had

13     no other conversations than this about Srebrenica.  That meaning is

14     clear, isn't it?  You were telling me you spoke to Karadzic once about

15     Srebrenica and that was in September 1995.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection.  None of

17     this is true.  None of this is correct.  The paragraph does not read like

18     that, not in English and not in Serbian.  And it was interpreted by Mr.

19     Nicholls differently:

20             [In English] "Maybe in 1995 in Banja Luka when I was talking

21     about Beara, when Beara presented a threat.  I touched upon his

22     stupidities.  We had no other conversations than this about Srebrenica."

23             [Interpretation] The witness says maybe I touched upon Srebrenica

24     when I was talking about Beara in general; whereas Mr. Nicholls says you

25     confirm that you discussed him then.  And he said instead:  I may have

Page 42830

 1     touched upon it.  We should look at the Serbian version.  That would be

 2     the best.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If you wish, you can hear the audio tape.  And you

 4     can deal with it in your re-examination.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm going to move on.

 6        Q.   And let me ask you:  When you spoke to me about when you -- when

 7     you spoke to the OTP about when you talked to President Karadzic about

 8     Srebrenica, it was maybe September 1995 when this coup was being planned,

 9     when the civil war was going to break out.  That's September, not April

10     of the next year.  When you meet with the Defence and they take a

11     statement from you, the time of this conversation is moved back to April,

12     exactly when President Karadzic's first and only investigative request

13     comes out.  Did the Defence suggest to you this might have been April, in

14     fact?

15        A.   That's not correct, and you are twisting, distorting, everything,

16     as you did when you examined me before.  You put a different stress on

17     every word.  I told you I may have touched upon Srebrenica.  I didn't

18     mean crimes in Srebrenica.  I touched upon Beara's inclination to misuse

19     and abuse, but it was not discussion about Srebrenica.  It was discussion

20     about Beara as a threat.  Srebrenica was certainly not a topic.  Those

21     are two different events which cannot be linked, and the Defence could

22     not have suggested anything to me.  I am not susceptible to suggestion.

23     I'm not that type of person.  I'm not even susceptible to your

24     suggestions, although you have been trying for ten years now.

25        Q.   Page 88, His Honour Judge Kwon asked you about the portion where

Page 42831

 1     you discussed Karadzic's sources and how things were crystal clear.  And

 2     Judge Kwon asked -- said to you, His Honour Judge Kwon.  I'll read out

 3     again to you what was said, the question by the investigator, because you

 4     thought he already knew from all these sources and your answer this is

 5     crystal clear.  This is your answer now today in court:  Once again, to

 6     make myself clear, it's completely clear that he had sources to obtain

 7     information from, and whether specifically he knew that Beara -- that

 8     I believed that someone had reported to him that Beara had requested

 9     police in order to commit the execution of prisoners, not that.  So it's

10     crystal clear that he had sources of information which were supposed to

11     inform him about everything, but I didn't -- I don't know how this was

12     interpreted, nor did I think that he did receive the specific information

13     that Beara shot prisoners.

14             Could we have page 50 of this 2010 interview.  Talking about the

15     same topic, this is your meeting with President Karadzic on the 14th,

16     15th:  Okay, this is the question, top of the page, from investigator,

17     Did you tell president about Beara's request during this meeting?

18     Answer:  I cannot remember whether I told him.  But I just know that he

19     was aware of my constant criticisms of Beara, but I cannot remember, but

20     he must have known.  He must have known.  It was -- it must have been

21     known what Beara's behaviour on the war front was.  Each of us had at

22     least ten lines of informing.  So we all knew what was going on.  I knew

23     about Kravica, other people knew about Kravica, and there is no way he

24     could not have known about Beara's behaviour.

25             So you have once again, for the hundredth time today, changed

Page 42832

 1     your story.

 2        A.   I don't think that's true, and even a minute ago, when you were

 3     stating what my evidence of today, you misrepresent it.  You play with

 4     words.  I have been saying the same thing all over and over again, and

 5     I'm telling the truth so I see no reason for you to suggest something

 6     like this.  Do you have any more questions?  You have been just

 7     characterising my evidence today and my evidence given before.  What do

 8     you want me to do, to confirm that I'm lying?

 9        Q.   Stop commenting, please, and answer the question I just asked

10     you.  I will read out what you just said in this session to Judge Kwon

11     about Beara and whether President Karadzic would have known from his

12     sources about Beara and the executions:  So it's crystal clear that he,

13     the president, had sources of information which were supposed to inform

14     him about everything, but I didn't -- I don't know how this was

15     interpreted, nor did I think that he did receive this specific

16     information, that Beara shot prisoners.

17             And here, you're asked whether you're told about Beara's request

18     and about his request to execute prisoners, and you say he must have

19     known, it was -- it must have been known what Beara's behaviour on the

20     war front was.  Each of us had at least ten lines of informing, so we all

21     knew what was going on.  I knew about Kravica, other people knew about

22     Kravica, and there was no way he could not have known about Beara's

23     behaviour.

24        A.   If I said that legally speaking he should have known, and if we

25     later established, both you and I, that the military system was shut,

Page 42833

 1     closed, even up to the Main Staff level, it's clear that he didn't

 2     receive this information from them.  If they had worked in accordance

 3     with the law, he should have received it; but since they were not acting

 4     in accordance with the law, since they had isolated the whole system, he

 5     did not receive it or may have not received it.  Mr. Karadzic himself can

 6     tell us whether he got that report from them or not.  I was just saying

 7     in my evidence that if things had been done lawfully, he should have had

 8     that information, whereas you are misstating my evidence, quoting me, or,

 9     rather, misquoting me as saying that he had received it.  I could not

10     confirm that years ago and I cannot confirm today the things that I don't

11     know.  And one of the things I don't know is what kind of information he

12     received.  I think that's clear.

13        Q.   Last question.  One, I'm not misquoting you or mis-citing.  I'm

14     reading back what you said in interviews and what you said in this

15     courtroom.  Two, what you're telling me is that when were you asked about

16     whether you spoke about what Beara was doing and requesting help from the

17     MUP to execute prisoners, when you say, But he must have known.  He must

18     have known, it must have known what Beara's behaviour on the war front

19     was, each of us had ten lines of informing, so we all knew what was going

20     on.  I knew about Kravica, other people knew Kravica.  There was no way

21     he could have known about Beara's behaviour, what you were trying to say

22     truthfully was no way he could not have known about Beara's behaviour,

23     what you were trying to truthfully say was I don't think he could have

24     possibly gotten that information?  That's what you just kind of put to

25     us.

Page 42834

 1        A.   Formulate your sentences clearly.  Give me two questions or two

 2     answers.  If that is a problem, I'll tell you clearly.

 3        Q.   Sure, okay.

 4        A.   We are using police talk.  Maybe others will not understand us.

 5        Q.   No.  This is pretty simple.  I'll break it down further.  When

 6     you gave this answer about did you tell the president about Beara's

 7     request during your meeting, and you said each of us had ten lines of

 8     informing, so we all knew what was going on, let me put it this way --

 9     strike that.

10             When you say about the president there was no way he could not

11     have known about Beara's behaviour, what does that mean?  What were you

12     trying to say?

13        A.   I wanted to say this:  If the military security and the

14     Main Staff of the VRS had acted lawfully, he should have had that

15     information.  At that moment, I was not aware of the extent of the

16     conspiracy designed by Beara and those around him, which completely

17     prevented this system from functioning.  Later on, through my operative

18     investigations and through this and other trials, I realised that they

19     had completely isolated themselves within their system.  They closed it

20     off.  It did not act in accordance with the law.  But under the law, if

21     they had respected it, they had to inform him.

22        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that explanation of what you meant when you

23     said there was no way he could not have known about Beara's behaviour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You're through, Mr.  Nicholls?

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 42835

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Let's plan.  How long do you need, Mr. Karadzic, for

 2     your re-examination?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I doubt that I would finish it

 4     today.  If I did have 35 minutes, I could have done it, but now ...

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I take it, Mr. Lazarevic, you have to fly to Serbia

 6     today?

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  You are right about -- well,

 8     if need be, I mean, I'll --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, I'm thinking about extending the sitting for

10     today, if everybody is in agreement.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  That would be very convenient if it's for like 20

12     minutes or something that I think that I will be able to catch my flight.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, shall we try to finish by 3.00, then?

14     Mr. Karadzic said 45 minutes or 35 now.

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             JUDGE KWON:  If you inform me of the option.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  I asked him if he could be here on Monday and he

18     said he basically could, once he got the authorisation from the Tribunal.

19     So I think instead of rushing Dr. Karadzic, it's better to just continue

20     on Monday with the redirect examination, or if you want to use some time

21     today, but not to force Dr. Karadzic to complete it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kovac, do you have any problem with staying over

23     the weekend at The Hague?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So I take it that Mr. Karadzic prefers to start his

Page 42836

 1     re-examination on Monday.

 2             MR. KARADZIC:  Yes, Excellency, thank you.  Not to be rushed.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will do so.

 4             So, again, my advice is still valid not to discuss with anybody

 5     else about your testimony.  The hearing is adjourned.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.40 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of

 9                           November, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.