Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 43988

 1                           Tuesday, 26 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 7             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  May I introduce

 8     Ms. Xinyue Wang, who is from the People's Republic of China and who has

 9     been assisting my team for a month.  She's a master's student at the

10     University of Groningen.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I apologise for the delay.  I didn't remember that

12     Judge Morrison couldn't be with us due to his medical appointment which

13     could not be moved.  So therefore we'll be sitting pursuant to Rule

14     15 bis for today.

15             Yes, shall we go into private session briefly.

16                           [Private session]

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Page 43989











11  Pages 43989-43990 redacted.  Private session.















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16                           [Closed session]

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Page 43992











11  Pages 43992-43994 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 43995

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I take it next witness is Mr. Kondic?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we rise until 10.00?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, if he hasn't -- if he's not here yet then we

10     should do that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  All rise.

13                           --- Break taken at 9.51 a.m.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15                           --- On resuming at 10.03 a.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

17     please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  NOVAK KONDIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kondic.  Please make yourself

23     comfortable.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

Page 43996

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

 2     morning to all.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Minister.  I am afraid that the

 5     microphone does not register nodding, so you have to say everything that

 6     you want to have recorded here.

 7        A.   Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Also, I kindly ask you to pause between my questions and your

 9     answers so that all of them could be recorded in the transcript.  Did you

10     give a statement to my Defence team?

11        A.   Yes, I gave a statement to a representative of your team.  I

12     think it was the beginning of this year, something around then.  I don't

13     know the exact date.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D9521 in

16     e-court so that the witness could see it.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you see that statement on the screen in front of you?

19        A.   Yes, I see the statement on the screen, but I also have a hard

20     copy and I've been allowed to use that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Just pause a bit, please.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

25     the last page so he could identify his signature.

Page 43997

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my signature.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did this statement faithfully reflect what you said

 4     to the Defence team?

 5        A.   I stated what I remembered.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And that is recorded as you had put it; right?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today

 9     live, would your answers basically be the same?

10        A.   I hope they would be the same.  Of course one cannot phrase one's

11     sentences identically, but the answers would be the same.  I spoke about

12     what I remembered and there's a time distance involved, 20 years.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

15     statement into evidence according to Rule 92 ter.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And how about the associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  There are 16 associated

18     exhibits.  The Prosecution has pointed out some problems with two of

19     them, so we won't be tendering 1D9189, which is an article from "Glas"

20     magazine for which we had the English translation but no original; and we

21     also won't be tendering 05437, which is a document that didn't contain an

22     English translation, the quote from the article that was in Serbian but

23     we don't want to take the time to lead that live.  So we'll withdraw

24     those two and we persist with the other 14.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objection to the admission of the

Page 43998

 1     statement as well as 14 associated exhibits, Mr. File?

 2             MR. FILE:  Thank you.  Good morning, Your Honour.  I have one

 3     objection regarding the statement which is to paragraph 35, which the

 4     Prosecution contends is tu quoque evidence regarding the electricity

 5     situation in the Krajina area.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thirty-five?

 7             MR. FILE:  Correct.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  "... Krajina area had power only two hours every

 9     20 days.  The situation was very difficult for all citizens."

10             And your argument is that is tu quoque?

11             MR. FILE:  Correct, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could you expand?

13             MR. FILE:  This appears to be part of the same argument which is

14     that there were difficult conditions for citizens or civilians in

15     Bosnian Serb-held territory.  I would further add that the statement at

16     this paragraph refers to a Prosecution exhibit, Exhibit 3104, but I would

17     add that that document only refers to at page 6 of the English and

18     pages 5 to 6 of the B/C/S, financing an investment relating to repairing

19     and installing electricity in the Krajina region.  So it doesn't seem

20     that this Prosecution exhibit relates to the comment here, which is

21     simply that the Krajina area had power for two hours every 20 days.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Separate from the issue whether this may be relevant

23     or not, I'm not following how this is a tu quoque argument which --

24     regarding the power, electricity.

25             MR. FILE:  The times that we've seen this argument in the past,

Page 43999

 1     Your Honour, it has been raised in the context of evidence that the

 2     Prosecution has presented showing deprivations of electricity,

 3     particularly in the Sarajevo area as part of the efforts by the

 4     Bosnian Serb leadership to increase or decrease tensions in the Sarajevo

 5     area by using utilities as a means to that end.  And we've heard through

 6     various other witnesses examples of testimony relating to electricity

 7     outages in other parts of the country in Bosnian Serb-held territory, and

 8     that seems to be the only reason for advancing this claim.  Otherwise,

 9     this doesn't seem to be relevant evidence.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Unfortunately, the Chamber is not persuaded by your

12     argument, Mr. File.  The statement will be admitted in its entirety

13     together with 14 associated exhibits.  Shall we give -- assign the number

14     for the statement.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit D4063, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  The exhibit numbers for the associated exhibits will

19     be assigned in due course by the Registry.

20             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I would read out in

22     the English language a brief summary of Mr. Novak Kondic's statement.

23             [In English] Novak Kondic was a member of the Banja Luka

24     Crisis Staff.  Also, he was in charge of the monetary politics [sic] of

25     the municipality of Banja Luka.  He became a member of the SDS in 1994.

Page 44000

 1             Before the war, Novak Kondic worked at the public auditing

 2     service which kept accounts of all legal entities in Banja Luka and

 3     ensured the legality of all their operations and carried out transactions

 4     for the SFRY and collected and distributed cash for banks and

 5     post offices.  Novak Kondic considers that public opinion in BH was under

 6     great pressure following the events in Croatia, and everyone was fearful

 7     and this caused the mass exodus of Serbs from Croatia at the beginning of

 8     the war in Croatia.  The people of Banja Luka took refugees into their

 9     homes to give them food and wash.  There was a mix of ethnicities amongst

10     the refugees.

11             The SDS was established after the SDA and HDZ as a response to

12     the other two parties.  There is no basis whatsoever to conclude that the

13     policy of the SDS party from its establishment was the permanent removal

14     of Bosnian Muslims and Croats from Bosnian Serb-claimed territory in BH

15     through genocide, persecution, extermination, murder, deportation, and

16     inhumane acts.  The SDS created organs of authority and were respected.

17     Everyone was aware of the establishment of the Assembly of the

18     Serbian People in BH and it occurred as a response to the attempts of the

19     anti-constitutional independence of BH and its secession from the SFRY.

20             As a member of the Crisis Staff, Novak Kondic was aware that

21     following the only meeting of the Crisis Staff, the aim of the

22     Crisis Staff was to ensure more or less normal life for the people of the

23     municipality with regard to the supply of water, electricity, tax,

24     funding for schools, healthcare, and everything that could be ensured.

25     Novak Kondic does not consider that the Crisis Staffs in municipalities

Page 44001

 1     served as a vehicle for the permanent removal of the Bosnian Muslims and

 2     Croats from Bosnian Serb-claimed territory through genocide, persecution,

 3     extermination, murder, deportation, and inhumane acts.  There was only

 4     one session of the War Presidency of Banja Luka municipality held before

 5     its functions were taken over by the ARK Crisis Staff.

 6             In April 1992, following armed clashes in Sarajevo, the regular

 7     application of laws ceased and the municipalities discussed how to

 8     organise the functioning of the economic and financial system.  The

 9     Autonomous Region of Krajina was created and the statute was modelled on

10     the statute of the BH public auditing service.  The ARK quickly

11     established a financial system that was integrated with other regional

12     systems.  All work done in relation to the payments system was entirely

13     according to the laws of the SFRY and BH.

14             In relation to financing the ARK, expenses were paid from the

15     municipal budgets as there was no regulation for them collecting funds.

16     The fund for defence of the ARK was established to finance the basic

17     needs of the army, including toiletries, clothing, and food.  No

18     irregularities were noted in the fund.  The healthcare, pension,

19     employment and other funds were operated at the level of the ARK and

20     funds were autonomous from the republican organs in Pale until the

21     establishment of a unified system.  All employees paid a certain amount

22     of their salaries into special funds.  Until the unified payment system

23     was established in 1992 and 1993, the ARK did not fund the activities of

24     the Republika Srpska.

25             Civilians in Banja Luka were allowed to take foreign currency out

Page 44002

 1     of the ARK territory.  The regulations were based on the pre-war federal

 2     law.  The provisions applied to everyone no matter what their ethnic

 3     background.  Novak Kondic considers that from September 1992 onwards the

 4     ARK slowly began to be abolished.

 5             From his position on the Executive Board, Novak Kondic is aware

 6     that the position of the Banja Luka Executive Board were divided

 7     according to the inter-party agreement.  In September 1993, Novak Kondic,

 8     along with other member of the Executive Board, were interrogated by the

 9     armed men.  He still does not understand why.

10             Novak Kondic is aware that for at least two years in Krajina area

11     had power for only two hours every 20 days.  The situation was very

12     difficult for all citizens.

13             And that is a short summary, and at that moment I do not have

14     additional questions for Mr. Kondic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just suggest something?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Kondic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the first sentence you said that

18     I was in charge of monetary policy, whereas in actual fact I was in

19     charge of the system of payments and monetary policy was within the

20     national bank of Republika Srpska, so just that, to make a distinction

21     between the two, because they're separate.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  However, this is not evidence.  This is just a

24     summary of your statement and obviously it is not very precise.  Thank

25     you.

Page 44003

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 2             As you have noted, Mr. Kondic, your evidence in chief in this

 3     case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

 4     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you'll be cross-examined

 5     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

 6             Yes, Mr. File.

 7             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. File:

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kondic.

10             In your statement you said that you were not a member of the SDS

11     party until 1994 and that you "don't know anything about leadership in

12     the party and other organs."  Do you recall that statement?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You were never part of the SDS party leadership at any level,

15     were you?

16        A.   No, no.

17        Q.   And you did not participate in any meetings of the SDS party

18     leadership?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You didn't attend any RS Assembly sessions; correct?

21        A.   I attended RS Assembly sessions as director for the payment

22     system where our reports on payment transactions in the payment system

23     were discussed.

24        Q.   Did you participate in any way in formulating SDS party policies?

25        A.   No.

Page 44004

 1        Q.   Now, in paragraph 5 of your statement you say:

 2             "There is no basis whatsoever to conclude that the policy of the

 3     SDS party in the period from the establishment of the party on

 4     12 July 1992 onward was the permanent removal of Bosnian Muslims and

 5     Bosnian Croats from Bosnian Serb-claimed territory in BH through

 6     genocide, persecution, extermination, murder, deportation, and inhumane

 7     acts (forcible transfer).  I have never heard that there was a desire to

 8     exterminate or deport anyone ..."

 9             So based on what we've just discussed, this is not coming from

10     your personal experience in the SDS; this is just what you believe.  Is

11     that a fair summary of your position?

12        A.   I would say that at the time there was fear in every person after

13     everything that had happened in Croatia when columns of refugees were

14     coming into Banja Luka.  I think as an ordinary citizen that we

15     considered the SDS to be a movement and protection from a breakout of war

16     and everything that was already going on in Croatia.  So I was speaking

17     about that as an ordinary citizen in terms of how I viewed the situation

18     then because that is how all people saw it.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you were a member of the Banja Luka

20     Crisis Staff; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   In your statement you said that only one session of the

23     Banja Luka Crisis Staff was ever called, or at least you were only given

24     notice of one session.  Do you recall saying that?

25        A.   Yes, I recall that.  Actually, I was the director of the

Page 44005

 1     tax department of the municipality of Banja Luka and the Crisis Staff was

 2     made up of persons who were in charge of particular sectors within the

 3     municipality.  This session was convened.  As far as I can remember, what

 4     was discussed there was creating conditions for the functioning of normal

 5     civilian life in town.  Of course after this one session, I was never

 6     asked to come again - perhaps they weren't held anymore - and it was the

 7     president of the municipality, Mr. Predrag Radic, that chaired the

 8     Crisis Staff.

 9        Q.   Now, you were also a member of the Banja Luka War Presidency;

10     correct?

11        A.   No.  The Crisis Staff of the city of Banja Luka.  It was no

12     War Presidency.  I don't know of the existence of any War Presidency.

13        Q.   Could I refer you to paragraph 33 of your statement.  I'm going

14     to read what you said in that paragraph.  You said:

15             "I have been shown document 1D25042.  This is a decision

16     appointing me to the War Presidency of Banja Luka.  Only one session of

17     this War Presidency of the Banja Luka municipality was held on

18     6 May 1992, but this function was taken over by the ARK KS" Crisis Staff

19     "immediately after this session ..."

20             So you were a member of a War Presidency that met on one

21     occasion; correct?

22        A.   No, sorry, that's a mistake in the term that was used because it

23     was explained in paragraph 8, that's the Crisis Staff that I spoke of.

24     It's not the War Presidency.  So I think that this was just misstated,

25     that I misspoke actually.  War Presidency, I don't even know of its

Page 44006

 1     existence and I was not a member of a War Presidency.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload that document?

 3             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Now, if you look at the top of this document, we're referring to

 5     1D25042, this is a document from the Banja Luka municipality

 6     Executive Committee.  It's dated at the top 5 September 1991, although in

 7     your statement at paragraph 33 you said that the date written in the

 8     document was wrong.  And if you go to where it says "decision," it

 9     indicates this is a decision on establishing the War Presidency of the

10     Banja Luka Municipal Assembly.  And you were -- you'll see at number 2 --

11     part II, number 10, towards the bottom of the page, you'll see your name,

12     Novak Kondic, director of the AR /Autonomous Region/ of Krajina SDK

13     /Public Auditing Service/, do you see that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.  Actually, the wording is wrong.  Wrong terms were

15     used.  This decision says that was a War Presidency.  Under 8 I said a

16     Crisis Staff.  That was the same group of people who were appointed, but

17     I don't know what the name of the body was previously but it's one and

18     the same thing.

19             MR. FILE:  Would you like to take a break at this point,

20     Your Honour?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, where do we see Crisis Staff under 8?

22     Could you repeat, Mr. Kondic, what you said.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that those two things were

24     the same.  I said in my paragraph 8 that that was a Crisis Staff, that

25     was the terminology that was used; however, it is about its name being a

Page 44007

 1     War Presidency.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But you -- in paragraph 33 you mention

 3     "War Presidency," didn't you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that this document was

 5     shown to me when I was providing my statement, which is why I used the

 6     same term as in the document because it is all about this document, isn't

 7     it?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And you stated that War Presidency was taken over by

 9     the Crisis Staff.  Do you remember having said that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did say -- let me explain.

11     It is one and the same thing.  I didn't see previously that according to

12     this decision the name of that body was War Presidency.  I said that a

13     body was indeed set up, and when the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina staff

14     did -- operating, I believe that those issues that pertained to the

15     purview of the War Presidency were transferred on to different body or

16     different bodies.  We never met.  There was that -- just that one meeting

17     to which we were called in order to be invited to help the functioning of

18     normal life in town, including water, electricity, tax collection, and

19     everything else that concerned normal conditions of life.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll have a break for 30 minutes and resume at

21     five past 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. File.

25             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 44008

 1        Q.   Mr. Kondic, before the break we were discussing this document,

 2     1D25042, the document that appointed you as a member of the Banja Luka

 3     War Presidency.  At page 20 of today's transcript you said that the

 4     wording is wrong in that document.  I want to just clarify, is it your

 5     testimony that there was not a municipal Crisis Staff in Banja Luka that

 6     existed before the Banja Luka War Presidency was established in

 7     May of 1992?

 8        A.   I only remember that one body was indeed appointed and set up.  I

 9     don't know whether it was called War Presidency or Crisis Staff.  If we

10     look at this decision, those are mostly members of the Executive Council,

11     and I was its member.  This was a municipal body which was set up.  I

12     attended just one meeting of that body and no other meetings after that.

13     I don't know if it continued operating at all.

14        Q.   My question was whether any entity of this sort existed before

15     this date of 6 May 1992 [sic].  Was there any Crisis Staff or any

16     War Presidency before then?

17        A.   Honestly, I don't know.  I can't remember.  I don't know.

18             MR. FILE:  Can we look at 65 ter number 04 --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             But is it your evidence that the date is wrong on the page we are

21     looking at now, Mr. Kondic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the date.  I can see

23     that the date has been corrected on this page, but I really do not recall

24     the exact date.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I beg your pardon.  Did you say date has been

Page 44009

 1     corrected?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see in the document that

 3     the day and month are illegible, whereas the year is quite clearly

 4     legible.  That's why I'm saying that I don't know, I can't remember the

 5     date.  I don't know when this decision was actually passed.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see the upper part of the document which

 7     refers to the document number, strictly confidential --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  -- but it still bears the number of 1991?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and you can see clearly that

11     it was on the 5th of September, 1991; however, further down, when

12     describing that particular session and the date when it was held, that

13     part is not very clear or legible.

14             JUDGE KWON:  In the parenthesis, Official Gazette of Serbian

15     people in Bosnia and Herzegovina number 3/92, does that number, 92,

16     represent the year, Mr. File?  Do you have any clue?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Well, should we continue.

19             MR. FILE:  If we could turn to 65 ter number 04998, please.

20        Q.   Mr. Kondic, you'll see that this is a newspaper article from

21     "Glas" from the 4th of April, 1992.

22             MR. FILE:  I'd like to look at B/C/S page 2, English page 3.

23        Q.   Now, you'll see the headline at the top of the page in B/C/S and

24     at approximately the middle to the bottom of the page in the English

25     says:

Page 44010

 1             "Crisis Staff session takes place.

 2             "SOS demands accepted."

 3             And in the first paragraph of the article it says:

 4             "Banja Luka, 3 April - at a press conference today,

 5     Predrag Radic, President of the Banja Luka Crisis Staff, declared that

 6     all of the Serbian Defence Forces' /SOS/ demands had been agreed to,

 7     true, in a slightly modified form ..."

 8             One more area of this page I'm going to draw your attention to is

 9     in the English page 6 and it's the box that is in the middle of that

10     article in B/C/S titled "Crisis Staff."  And this contains a list of

11     individuals who were appointed to the Crisis Staff.  You'll see this list

12     does not contain your name.

13             So my question to you is:  Does this refresh your recollection as

14     to whether a Crisis Staff existed in the month before the establishment

15     of this War Presidency that we were discussing earlier?

16        A.   I believe that it may be concluded from the document that the

17     staff did exist; however, I know that there was one body that consisted

18     mostly of the members of the Executive Council and I was one of the

19     members.  That was the War Presidency that had only one session and I

20     really don't know anything else about that.  Because here the -- there is

21     a reference to the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Banja Luka.  I was

22     not a member, I don't know how it functioned, and I don't know how long

23     it existed for.

24        Q.   But you agree that you were present in Banja Luka at the time and

25     you were aware of the existence of this staff?

Page 44011

 1        A.   I suppose that I knew at the time, but that was 20 years ago.

 2     Now as I sit here, I really can't be sure.  I know that there was one

 3     body, I was appointed to that body, I attended just one meeting and no

 4     meetings after that because, A, there were no such meetings; and B, I was

 5     never called to any of them.

 6             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it -- yes, Mr. -- before that,

 8     yes, Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I would think just those two pages.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But in B/C/S is one page.

11             Mr. File?

12             MR. FILE:  That's correct, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             Yes, we'll receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit P6522, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MR. FILE:

18        Q.   Now, in your statement what you said about the meeting of this

19     War Presidency was that it took place on the 6th of May, 1992; correct?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Paragraph 33.

21             MR. FILE:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can see that from the

23     document because the document bears that date, 6th of May, 1992.

24             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter number 05443, please.

25        Q.   You'll see at the top of this page, this is an excerpt from the

Page 44012

 1     minutes of the 69th Session of the Executive Committee of Banja Luka

 2     municipality, held on the 8th of May, 1992.

 3             MR. FILE:  If we go to English page 10 and B/C/S page 8, please.

 4        Q.   You'll see under item 20 it says:

 5             "The Committee adopted a decision establishing a War Presidency

 6     of the Banja Luka Municipal Assembly."

 7             So this would seem to suggest that the Banja Luka War Presidency

 8     was established on the 8th of May, 1992.  Does that refresh your

 9     recollection as to the date of the establishment of the War Presidency?

10        A.   No, I can't remember the date at all, not after the time that has

11     lapsed.

12        Q.   Do you have any reason to disagree with what is stated in the

13     minutes of this 69th Session of the Executive Committee of Banja Luka

14     municipality?

15        A.   I believe that the minutes are credible.

16             MR. FILE:  Could I tender that, Your Honour?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             Just a second.  Shall we admit it in its entirety, Mr. Robinson?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  That would be fine, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Or only those pages?  First and last page.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  I think we'd just as soon have it admitted in its

22     entirety, but it's up to you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, we'll admit those two pages.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit P6523, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 44013

 1             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter number 5502, please.

 2        Q.   When this comes up, you'll see that these are the abridged

 3     minutes of the 19th Session of the Assembly of the municipality of

 4     Banja Luka, dated 23 June 1992.  On page 1 of the English and page 1 of

 5     the B/C/S, towards the bottom, it says in the large paragraph:

 6             "The President informed Assembly members that there were no

 7     changes and amendments to the agenda, except that the War Presidency had

 8     in the meantime, from the sending of the materials to the holding of the

 9     session, on 19 June 1992 reviewed and adopted the Decision under point 3

10     of the agenda which says:  The Draft Decision on violations at a time of

11     imminent threat of war or in the event of war; I therefore propose that

12     this Decision be reviewed as part of point 2 of the agenda, like all

13     other decisions adopted by the War Presidency."

14             And if you go to English page 2, at the bottom of B/C/S page 1,

15     under item 2, it says:

16             "Verification of the decisions adopted by the War Presidency of

17     the Banja Luka Municipal Assembly within the competencies of the

18     Municipal Assembly in the period from 28 May 1992 to 23 June 1992 ..."

19             And then going on to page 2 of the B/C/S, it has a whole list of

20     decisions in areas that include the allocation of municipal apartments,

21     appointing and replacing judges, and this issue of violations at a time

22     of imminent threat of war or in the event of war.  So in addition to the

23     meeting you were previously saying happened on the 6th -- on or about the

24     6th of May, 1992, this seems to suggest that there were numerous meetings

25     of the Banja Luka War Presidency between 28 May 1992 and 23 June 1992,

Page 44014

 1     including one that is specifically mentioned as having taken place on

 2     19 June 1992.  So would you agree, in light of this, that your

 3     recollection about the extent of these meetings could be mistaken?

 4        A.   It is possible, because from this I can see that the

 5     War Presidency was the Executive Council of the city of Banja Luka and I

 6     was its member.  I suppose that decisions were passed at meetings of the

 7     Executive Council, which operated as the War Presidency and they were

 8     sent to the Assembly; because the Executive Council made decisions from

 9     within its regular purview and sent them for review to the Assembly and

10     for adoption.  I suppose that I may have forgotten the terminology.  I

11     don't know whether the state of war was declared and the

12     Executive Council was renamed and became a War Presidency.  I believe

13     that that would be the explanation, but I don't know.  However, when we

14     looked at the article in "Glas," it says there that that was the

15     Crisis Staff of the municipality of Banja Luka and I suppose that I

16     related that activity to that -- to this one meeting of the

17     Executive Council.  If you look at the composition of the War Presidency,

18     those were mostly members of the Executive Council and you can see their

19     functions; i.e., you can see what sectors they covered.  And it is a

20     purely legal phrasing and a legal issue.

21             MR. FILE:  Could we look at English page 5, B/C/S page 4 of this

22     document, please.

23        Q.   Now, you will see at the bottom of the page in English and in

24     B/C/S, you were attending this session of the Assembly of the

25     municipality of Banja Luka because you presented introductory comments to

Page 44015

 1     two decisions of the War Presidency relating to sales taxes.  That's at

 2     the bottom of those pages.  Do you recall being present for this session?

 3        A.   Of course I did.  I was a member of the Executive Council and we

 4     were duty-bound to attend Assembly sessions, and you can see from the

 5     minutes that my presence was recorded.

 6             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender this document.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit those pages.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit P6524, Your Honours.

 9             MR. FILE:  Could we look at document 65 ter 5520, please.

10        Q.   As this comes up, you'll see that this is a letter from the

11     Banja Luka public prosecutor to the Banja Luka War Presidency dated

12     6th of July, 1992.  This letter is proposing deputy public prosecutors

13     for Banja Luka to be confirmed by the War Presidency, and in particular

14     it says in the second paragraph:

15             "In view of the legal provision on the Public Prosecutor's Office

16     in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the decision on the

17     structure of organisation, the seat and areas /that concern/ the offices

18     of public prosecutors adopted by the acting president of the republic,

19     the War Presidency must give its approval for the appointment of the

20     Deputy Public Prosecutor.  Please could you, therefore, approve this at

21     the next session."

22             Now, you would agree that this seems to indicate that other

23     public officials viewed the Banja Luka War Presidency as functioning in

24     July 1992 because it makes a request for approval to take place at the

25     next session; correct?

Page 44016

 1        A.   As far as I can remember - and you can also see from the

 2     document - the Executive Council of the city of Banja Luka, or rather, of

 3     the municipality of Banja Luka, as it was known at the time, was renamed

 4     and became War Presidency, which means that all the functions that

 5     Executive Council performed up to April 1992, it continued to perform.

 6     But a decision had been made to rename it so that it became a

 7     War Presidency.  You can see from the composition of the people who were

 8     its members.  It could not have been an illegal group, a random group of

 9     people that made decisions that would then be sent to the Assembly.  It's

10     a very legal issue and I'm a layperson, but as far as I can remember

11     that's how things were and you can see from the document that this was

12     actually the Executive Council of the city of Banja Luka.

13        Q.   So now it's your testimony that the War Presidency was

14     sometimes -- on at least one occasion a Crisis Staff but other times it

15     was the Executive Council; is that what you're saying?

16        A.   I'm saying that from this -- the documents, you can see that the

17     Executive Council was renamed and became a War Presidency.  And as for

18     the Crisis Staff, as far as I can remember it was set up, its president

19     was Predrag Radic, the president of the Assembly.  I attended its session

20     only once and never again.

21             MR. FILE:  Before we get away from this document --

22        Q.   You don't recall attending any War Presidency sessions in

23     July 1992; correct?

24        A.   I can't remember, but I know from the documents - and you can

25     also check that with the people who were in charge of the

Page 44017

 1     Executive Council, its president Rajko Kasagic, for example - it arises

 2     from this that at the time the Executive Council was renamed and became a

 3     War Presidency.  This is my understanding.

 4        Q.   Now, I noticed another comment in your statement when you said at

 5     paragraph 16:

 6             "In the ARK we acted like a separate state whose supreme organ

 7     was the ARK Assembly ..."

 8             This letter has a local prosecutor talking about meeting the

 9     requirements of republic-level legal provisions and presidential

10     decisions that establish procedures relating to municipal

11     War Presidencies.  So you would agree that this letter is inconsistent

12     with your claim that the highest law of the land in Krajina came from the

13     ARK Assembly; right?

14        A.   It arises from this that the ARK Assembly existed for only a few

15     months, until the moment Republika Srpska was territorially integrated.

16     ARK Assembly passed decisions that were then sent to various institutions

17     in the area for implementation.  That was between April 1992 to

18     September 1999 [as interpreted].  And then the National Assembly, the

19     government, and other institutions took over and started functioning

20     normally --

21        Q.   Okay --

22        A.   -- and during that time the Assembly of ARK and its Presidency --

23        Q.   This letter comes from 6th of July, 1992, so you're limiting your

24     claim about the ARK Assembly to before that date; is that what you're

25     saying?

Page 44018

 1        A.   I cannot be tied to the date because I don't remember dates after

 2     all this time, but I know that at the beginning of the divisions of the

 3     entire Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole concerning the area of Banja Luka

 4     and other municipalities, the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of

 5     Krajina was formed and it took over certain legislative and other

 6     functions and functions of the Presidency and executive functions,

 7     especially in the payment system.

 8             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender this document.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6525, Your Honours.

11             MR. FILE:  Could we just look briefly at P2620, please.

12        Q.   You'll see this is an ARK Crisis Staff document from

13     Radoslav Brdjanin dated 11 June 1992, and it says at the top:

14             "On the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, the

15     municipal Crisis Staff, that is the War Presidency, shall consist of the

16     following persons ..."

17             And then it has a list.  And then again it says:

18             "The War Presidency, that is the Crisis Staff ..." and it

19     explains the duties.

20             Now, this doesn't say anything about the War Presidency being an

21     Executive Committee, it refers specifically to the Crisis Staff; correct?

22        A.   It is obvious from this that the Crisis Staff is, in fact, a

23     completely different organ than the Executive Committee or the

24     War Presidency which was in place during the war because people have

25     different functions here, whereas on the Executive Board of the region of

Page 44019

 1     Banja Luka there are certain people who had been elected before 1991.

 2        Q.   But this document creates an equivalency between the Crisis Staff

 3     and the War Presidency, not between the Executive Council and the

 4     War Presidency; right?

 5        A.   No, no.  The Executive Board was renamed, as we could see in that

 6     decision, into War Presidency.  And the members of the War Presidency

 7     were the members of the Executive Board that had been elected to those

 8     posts.  So this war -- what you call it, the War Presidency, is not

 9     related to this organ referred to here.

10             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter number 25685, please.

11        Q.   So as you can see from this document, it's a decision of the

12     Banja Luka War Presidency dated 7 July 1992.  It says at the top:

13             "At a session held on 7 July 1992, the War Presidency of the

14     Banja Luka Municipal Assembly adopted the following decision:

15             "Relieving the editor-in-chief of the Banja Luka 'Glas' newspaper

16     /of his duties/  ..."

17             I'm going to show you one more document and then I'm going to ask

18     you a question.

19             MR. FILE:  Could we have 65 ter number 25684, please.

20        Q.   And as you can see from this, this is a decision of the

21     Banja Luka War Presidency dated 16 July 1992, and it says:

22             "At its session of 16 July 1992, the War Presidency of the

23     Banja Luka Municipal Assembly ... adopted the following decision ..."

24             So you see, there are sessions of the War Presidency, as its

25     called, taking place in July 1992, but it's your testimony that there was

Page 44020

 1     only one session of the War Presidency; is that right?

 2        A.   I'm trying to explain that there existed one body headed by the

 3     president of the municipality, Predrag Radic.  I'm not sure whether it

 4     was called the War Presidency or it was called the Crisis Staff, but we

 5     see from the documents that the administrative board -- in fact, that

 6     some sort of War Presidency was formed made up mainly of members of the

 7     Executive Board and it's logical that such decisions were made by that

 8     body.

 9        Q.   But the very first document that we saw today was a document that

10     was nominating you to the War Presidency.  You were a member of the

11     War Presidency.  So you didn't attend any of these meetings; is that what

12     you're saying?

13        A.   No, I'm saying that by virtue of that decision I was named member

14     of the Executive Board.  Because look at the War Presidency, all of these

15     people were former members of the Executive Board that had been legally

16     elected to the Executive Board.  And that body was renamed into

17     War Presidency.  On the other hand, there was the Crisis Staff, to which

18     I was appointed, it held only one session and I was never again invited

19     there.  So you can see clearly that these are two different bodies.

20        Q.   Okay.  Final area of questions.  In numerous places in your

21     statement you discuss how the BiH SDK in Sarajevo cut off payment

22     transactions with the Banja Luka SDK branch office, that's at

23     paragraph 10 where you say that:

24             "Payment transactions with municipalities from the Banja Luka

25     region were cut off ..." relating to April 1992.

Page 44021

 1             And then again in paragraph 12 you say:

 2             "At one point the BH SDK cut payment transactions with the

 3     Banja Luka SDK branch office, but I do not remember why ..."

 4             Now, my question to you is:  Are you aware that well before

 5     payment transactions with the Banja Luka SDK were cut off, the SDS

 6     leadership had issued instructions to take over power in SDK branches?

 7             MR. FILE:  And for the record, I'm referring to Exhibits P2548

 8     and P958.

 9        Q.   The question is:  Are you aware of that?

10        A.   In that period there was an antagonism; in fact, there were

11     problems in the distribution of funds between the central authorities in

12     Sarajevo and the authorities in Banja Luka.  The system operated in such

13     a way that those revenues that were collected in the area of the

14     municipality of Banja Luka were sent every night to the centre in

15     Sarajevo where they were to be redistributed so that part of the funds

16     went to Belgrade in the form of federal taxes, part of the revenues

17     remained in Sarajevo, and part in Banja Luka.  There were certain major

18     problems in returning a portion of these funds to the local level --

19        Q.   Mr. Kondic --

20        A.   -- so there was a dialogue between --

21        Q.   -- pardon me for interrupting, but my question was more narrow

22     and more specific than that.  I was simply asking you whether you were

23     aware that before the payment transactions were cut off from Sarajevo, if

24     you were aware that the SDS leadership had issued instructions to take

25     over power in SDK branches.  That's the question.

Page 44022

 1        A.   I know that certain decisions were made and that they were

 2     enacted in circumstances when the payment transaction system was

 3     paralyzed.  Attempts were made to continue observing the regulations and

 4     send funds to Sarajevo; however, there were power cuts on the local level

 5     and the payments authorities were unable to process that.  I know the

 6     Assembly discussed it and the president of the Assembly, Mr. Pelivan,

 7     certain decisions were made but I really can't remember the details.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember any -- the existence of any instructions

 9     from SDS leadership to prevent SDK branches in Serb-dominated areas from

10     releasing money from their treasuries, effectively cutting off

11     transactions with other parts of Bosnia?

12        A.   I know that there was a series of decisions and debates primarily

13     before the Assembly of Banja Luka and then talks ensued with the official

14     authorities in Sarajevo, with the aim of deciding how to use the funds

15     more regularly, more appropriately.

16             May I add something?

17             MR. FILE:  Actually, if we could just look at Exhibit P5, please.

18             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

19             MR. FILE:

20        Q.   You'll see that this is SDS Main Board instructions for the

21     organisation and operation of organs of the Serbian people in

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina in emergency conditions.  This is the Variant A

23     and B document from 19 December 1991.

24             MR. FILE:  If we could just look at English page 5 and B/C/S

25     page 5, please.

Page 44023

 1        Q.   You'll see under "second degree," point 4, the instruction here

 2     is to:

 3             "Make the SDK /Public Accounting Services/ branch and affiliated

 4     offices responsible for preventing the physical outflow of cash and

 5     securities from the treasuries under their jurisdiction in banks,

 6     post offices, and other financial institutions ..."

 7             Now, these instructions are coming in December 1991, well before

 8     the electricity cutoffs that you were describing; would you agree?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] I see from the document that it was issued on

10     19 December 1991 by the Main Board of the SDS, but of course we did not

11     apply this because we did not apply this at that time.  The unified

12     system in Bosnia-Herzegovina was still in operation if we are talking

13     about capital payments.  This may have been some sort of recommendation,

14     but I did not see it nor was I in a position to act upon this.  Because

15     the general director of the capital payment service was still in

16     Sarajevo --

17        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

18        A.   -- that was a director for payments in Banja Luka and I was the

19     director of the tax administration in the municipality.

20        Q.   So it's your testimony that you didn't see these instructions?

21        A.   I can't remember.  Maybe I had seen it then, but I really don't

22     remember.  I cannot remember all the documents or remember them after

23     22 years.

24             MR. FILE:  No further questions, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 44024

 1             Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just two or three questions,

 3     Your Excellency.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kondic, could we look at 25684.  It probably

 6     has a P number now.  65 ter 25684.

 7             Do you remember those numerous decisions?  It will come up soon.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, this is something different.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, did you tender those two decisions by

10     War Presidency, Mr. File?

11             MR. FILE:  I may not have, but I intended to.  If I could please,

12     Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Should we assign numbers.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 25685 receives Exhibit P6526.

15     65 ter number 25684 receives Exhibit P6527, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That could be P6523.  But never

17     mind.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   All those decisions that you saw in several documents, if there

20     had been no war, in whose jurisdiction were such decisions?  If it hadn't

21     been for the war, which body would have issued those decisions?

22        A.   According to the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Assembly

23     in Sarajevo was competent to legislate, to enact certain laws; and based

24     on those laws, municipalities were competent to issue some regulations,

25     such as the Assembly in Banja Luka.  Some of these decisions enacted by

Page 44025

 1     the Assembly during the war used to be enacted and issued by other bodies

 2     than the Assembly after 1992.  Speaking of these decisions about

 3     collection of taxes and contributions, these decisions were enacted based

 4     on the existing laws but received a different framework before the

 5     Municipal Assemblies.

 6        Q.   Who by ethnicity are Edin Hergic, Kemal Arnautovic, then

 7     Azra Viscevic, and Gordana Preselj?  Who were these people on the

 8     Executive Board by ethnicity?

 9        A.   It is unambiguous that these are Muslims and Croats.  I remember

10     some of these names, but, for instance, the vice-president of the

11     Executive Board was Anton Rusic a Croat; Josip Cujec, Croat; and there

12     were two Bosniaks whose names elude me at the moment, Nedzad Kusmic is

13     one of them.

14        Q.   Thank you.  This, for instance, is the month of May, but we've

15     seen that on 23rd June and 6th July there were other documents.  Did they

16     continue to work in the municipality of Banja Luka?

17        A.   They continued, but, to be quite honest, I worked until

18     September 1992 when I was appointed deputy director of the payment

19     service and I left the Executive Board so I don't know how long they

20     continued on it.

21        Q.   It was said here that those instructions, regardless of how we

22     treat them -- can you tell us, what was the situation with the outflow of

23     cash among the republics and when did this new situation arise in the

24     payment transactions among the republics?

25        A.   The problem with the distribution of revenues between local

Page 44026

 1     communities and republic organs became very tense on the eve of the war

 2     and there were many meetings between presidents of Municipal Assemblies

 3     and the president of the Executive Council of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 4     Mr. Pelivan at the time.  And those tensions culminated in great

 5     discontent.  At that time I was a member of the Presidency of the

 6     League of Communists of the municipality of Banja Luka, and this

 7     discontent with the overall relations between local and republic

 8     authorities, the decision was made to stop paying the contributions, the

 9     fees, the membership fees, to the League of Communists to Sarajevo and to

10     keep them in Banja Luka.  The head of that committee was a Croat,

11     Zvonko Nikolic.

12        Q.   Was that before the SDS was established?

13        A.   I can't remember the date, but I believe it was before the

14     establishment of the SDS.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Staying on the same subject, what did it look like

16     between republics and the Federation, this same problem?

17        A.   We had some information based on the tax inspections done by the

18     SDK in Belgrade, which checked the six branch offices in the republics.

19     And I know there were problems in the supply of cash because all the

20     republics used to be supplied from Belgrade, from the National Bank of

21     Yugoslavia.  Then there was some problems and complaints regarding the

22     taxes payable to the Federation.

23        Q.   And last, what happened to the foreign exchange -- foreign

24     currency savings of citizens of households before the war broke out?

25        A.   What I know as a regular citizen is that the foreign currency

Page 44027

 1     savings evaporated.  People were unable to access their foreign currency

 2     savings accounts, and to date these problems persist.

 3        Q.   Where, for instance, did the savings held by the Ljubljanska

 4     Banka in Bosnia-Herzegovina disappear?

 5        A.   I don't know.  It's a problem between the Bank of

 6     Republika Srpska and the National Bank of Yugoslavia.  That had nothing

 7     to do with my job which was payment transactions.

 8        Q.   I have no further questions.  Thank you, Mr. Kondic.

 9        A.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Kondic.  On

11     behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to

12     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Is the next witness ready, Mr. Robinson?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration,

19     please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  ANDJELKO GRAHOVAC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Grahovac.  Please be seated and make

25     yourself comfortable.

Page 44028

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Grahovac.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  We both need to mind how we speak.  We need to speak

 7     slowly and make a short pause between questions and answers so that

 8     everything is properly recorded.  Have you given a statement to my

 9     Defence team?

10        A.   Yes, I have given a statement to your Defence team.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court 1D9520,

12     please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you see your statement on the screen?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Have you read and signed that statement?

17        A.   I have seen that statement and I signed it, but concerning

18     paragraphs 40 and 41, I would like to clarify something.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please display

21     paragraphs 40 and 41.  It's page 12 in B/C/S.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Tell us what needs to be clarified in paragraph 40.

24        A.   Let me see.  It seems to me this record is not the last one

25     looked at.  It could be the next one, 41.  Yes, 41.  In the sentence that

Page 44029

 1     begins with:

 2             "I was also ..."

 3             That sentence should be deleted and replaced with the following:

 4             "I too could have been killed by such men on one of the bridges

 5     across the Vrbas river, like the chief of security of Banja Luka,

 6     Goran Ilic [as interpreted], was killed and he was my friend and

 7     neighbour ..."

 8             So that --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

10             Can we see the next page, at least in English.

11             THE ACCUSED:  "I too ...," second line.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             Did you say "Goran Ilic" or "Goran Bjelica"?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "Goran Bijelic."

15             JUDGE KWON:  So he was killed?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was that bridge that he was

17     victimised.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Any other corrections you would like to make?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was in my paragraph 41,

20     but I think it is in your paragraph 42.

21             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's in 41.  Thank you.

22             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph 42 as well, please.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What would you change there?

Page 44030

 1        A.   The last name of the woman referred to there is not "Pavelic," it

 2     is "Pajic."

 3        Q.   Marinka Pajic; right?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last page please be shown

 7     to the witness so he could identify his signature.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is that your signature?

10        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions today --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

13             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm very sorry, Your Honours, and I wouldn't

15     normally interrupt Dr. Karadzic at this stage in the game, but since

16     we're dealing with corrections to the statement I just wanted to bring to

17     everybody's attention in relation to paragraphs 18 -- paragraph 18 of the

18     statement and 17, both of those refer to quotes from a document which is

19     already exhibited and which was referenced in the draft version of the

20     statement.  But the actual reference to the document has been deleted,

21     and that's D4016.  Paragraphs 17 and 18 actually quote that document

22     almost entirely.  So perhaps it would help things if there was just a

23     reference to D4016 inserted somewhere in relation to those paragraphs.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't have any objection to that,

Page 44031

 1     Mr. President.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  It's just it might be inadvertence --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If the Defence agrees to your statement, then that

 4     will be fine.  So paragraph 17 and paragraph 18 refer to Exhibit D4016.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue then.

 7             THE ACCUSED:  Was it 4016 or 4106?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll double-check that I have the number exactly

10     correct.  Sometimes I transpose them.

11             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today as were the

14     questions put by members of my team, would your answers basically be the

15     same?

16        A.   Yes.  If the members of your team were to put the same questions,

17     the answers would be the same.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to tender this statement according to

19     Rule 92 ter.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And about the associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, there are nine unadmitted

22     associated exhibits listed; we're tendering eight of them.  Number 00947

23     is not being tendered.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Edgerton?

25             MS. EDGERTON:  No.  Just with respect to 1D25009, could we only

Page 44032

 1     have page 34 because all B/C/S pages have been uploaded and I think we

 2     only need the page that the witness has referenced.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit this 92 ter statement as well as

 4     eight associated exhibits.

 5             Shall we assign the number for the statement first.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement receives Exhibit D4077,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And the other numbers for the associated exhibits

 9     will be assigned in due course by the Registry.

10             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Now I'm going to read out, in the English language, a brief

13     summary of Mr. Andjelko Grahovac's statement.

14             [In English] Andjelko Grahovac was an MP in the BH parliament

15     between 1990 and 1992, and later a member of the Assembly of the

16     Serbian People.  He was elected in the Banja Luka municipality.

17             In May 1990, Andjelko Grahovac's wife was threatened whilst

18     pushing a pram containing their daughter.  A man approached the pram, had

19     pulled out two knives pointing them at the child's chest.  He then said,

20     "This is only the beginning for you."  This act was committed in an

21     attempt to make Andjelko Grahovac give up his political engagements;

22     however, he did not.

23             As a result of the multi-party elections, a coalition was

24     created.  The Assembly was run in a democratic and tolerant manner with

25     compromises sought to avoid conflicts.  A rift among the parties occurred

Page 44033

 1     after the decision of the Muslims and Croats to secede from Yugoslavia.

 2             The Assembly of the Serbian people was established on

 3     24th of October, 1991, and Momcilo Krajisnik was elected as the first

 4     president, whilst he continued to hold the office of president of the

 5     Assembly of BH until the beginning of the war.

 6             The plebiscite of the Serbian people was held in November 1991,

 7     and over 90 per cent of the Serbian people who took part favoured

 8     remaining within Yugoslavia.  The Serbian people responded to the

 9     mobilisation of the JNA as it was a legal duty and they believed that the

10     JNA would protect them, in the case of an attack - people joined in an

11     attempt to prevent the war occurring.

12             At this time, Muslims and Croats were preparing paramilitary

13     forces, including the Green Berets, Handzar division, and the Ustasha

14     paramilitary ZNG, Zbor Narodne Garde.  Andjelko Grahovac was aware that

15     the HDZ from Bosnia and Herzegovina were sending Croatian and Muslim

16     volunteers to the battle-fields in Croatia during 1991 where Croatia

17     fought against Serbs.

18             To avoid any future problems, the Assembly of the Serbian people

19     accepted the Cutileiro Plan.  The Muslims are responsible for the

20     collapse of the Cutileiro Plan.  Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik never

21     promoted the hatred of other peoples; rather, their positions were much

22     more moderate than those of other deputies.

23             The Banja Luka Crisis Staff was established in May 1992.

24     Andjelko Grahovac never received any instructions or orders for the

25     persecution, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing of other peoples from the

Page 44034

 1     area, nor was any persecution or ethnic cleansing planned.  It was

 2     impossible to communicate with the republican leadership or contact them

 3     as the corridor towards Serbia did not exist.

 4             Local members of the SDS petitioned Predrag Radic for a long time

 5     to accept the post of president of the Municipal Assembly in Banja Luka.

 6     He was afraid to accept this position and in general to be a member of

 7     the SDS because he did not know what would happen if the elections -- in

 8     the elections and feared political retributions by the communists if they

 9     were to re-take power; however, he did take the position.

10             Andjelko Grahovac was elected president of the community of

11     municipalities of the Bosnian Krajina in May 1991.  The existing ZOBK

12     institution was used as it had been legally founded in the existing

13     system.  The ZOBK was established to gain economic independence from

14     Sarajevo and put up political resistance to the separatist policy of the

15     SDA and the HDZ.  However, funding for the ZOBK was a constant issue

16     because there was no stable source of income.  The ZOBK had little power

17     as the real political and economic power was held by the presidents of

18     Municipal Assemblies.

19             Dr. Karadzic was against the unification of the two Krajinas (in

20     Croatia and in Bosnia), as he saw it as a potential pretext for war.

21     Krajina then became an independent state, gaining economic independence.

22     The SDS had a poor rating in Banja Luka and the Krajina.

23             He was also aware of the roadblocks that had been set up around

24     BH.  Andjelko Grahovac visited Manjaca camp for prisoners of war.  Whilst

25     visiting he established that the prisoners were safe and that the rules

Page 44035

 1     and regulations were respected there.  If it was determined there was no

 2     evidence to prosecute, the prisoners would be released.

 3             As director of the Univerzal company, Andjelko Grahovac only

 4     dismissed employees who did not come to work five days in a row without

 5     giving any reason.  No one was fired for being Muslim or Croat.  The

 6     situation in Banja Luka during the war was difficult for Serbs as well as

 7     for Muslims and Croats because Serbs experienced thefts [sic].

 8     Andjelko Grahovac and his wife received threats over this period.  Around

 9     this area there were many dangerous people who were responsible for much

10     of the evil that was perpetrated.

11             That was the summary.  At the moment, I do not have additional

12     questions for Mr. Grahovac.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             As you have noted, Mr. Grahovac, your evidence in chief in this

15     case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

16     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  And now you'll be

17     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

22        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Grahovac.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   Mr. Grahovac, you pointed out in your written evidence that you

25     weren't a member of the ARK Crisis Staff, and I just want to get you to

Page 44036

 1     confirm that not only were you not a member, you didn't attend a single

 2     session of their meetings; right?

 3        A.   That's right.  When I was replaced from the position of

 4     prime minister of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina in December 1991,

 5     officially in the beginning of January 1992, I was not a member of the

 6     Crisis Staff.  And later on, I did not attend sessions of that body.

 7        Q.   And actually, you didn't even know who its members were until

 8     sometime in 1995; right?

 9        A.   I knew of some members of the Crisis Staff because they were

10     members of the Crisis Staff ex officio.  For example, Vojo Kupresanin,

11     the president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina; or

12     Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, then perhaps the commander of the Krajina Corps

13     and the president of the city Assembly; but the other members, seven,

14     eight, nine, or ten of them, I didn't know them until that point in time,

15     the one that you referred to.

16        Q.   And really, after your dismissal in January 1992, you really

17     distanced yourself from politics, didn't you?  You really focused on

18     running your company and football because of your position with the

19     Borac football club; right?

20        A.   Yes.  I was a bit angry because of the dishonourable dismissal

21     from that position.  I was angry at the political echelons at the time,

22     and since I was rather young at the time, this caused quite a bit of

23     stress.  That is why I devoted myself to the company that I worked in, to

24     production, and also I was president of the board's football club.  We

25     had a football league then in the Republic of Serbia because we were the

Page 44037

 1     only club that had remained in the federal premier league and that's

 2     basically what I did during those seven or eight months.

 3        Q.   And you didn't go to a single ARK Assembly session, did you?

 4        A.   As far as I can remember, I did not attend these sessions of the

 5     Assembly because I wasn't a member of the Assembly of the

 6     Autonomous Region of the Krajina and I was not a member of any other body

 7     of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina.

 8        Q.   And for a long time, you didn't even attend RS Assembly sessions,

 9     did you?

10        A.   Yes.  For a while, precisely because of that situation that I was

11     in, I did not attend sessions of the Assembly of the RS; but at one point

12     in time, I cannot say exactly when, I did join the activities of the

13     Assembly of the RS.

14        Q.   But -- and that dismissal -- actually, that completely eliminated

15     you from that circle involving Dr. Karadzic, the other RS leaders and

16     officials of the ARK, didn't it?

17        A.   Well, after the dismissal that's the way it was until I joined in

18     the work of the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and later

19     on the Assembly of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   But in 1992 from -- actually, from your dismissal all the way

21     through 1992, you were really out of the political sphere, weren't you?

22        A.   Well, you cannot say that a person is totally out of the

23     political sphere -- well, as for influence, no, I didn't really have much

24     influence then.  But in the context of what was happening in Banja Luka

25     and Republika Srpska at the time, a person had to be in this whirlpool,

Page 44038

 1     whether one liked to or not.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Grahovac, you've actually met with the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor's representatives a couple of times in the past,

 4     in 2001 and again in 2010.  And --

 5        A.   Yes.  I met with these representatives of the

 6     Office of the Prosecutor two or three times.

 7        Q.   All right.  And in 2001 you told my former colleagues that you

 8     knew -- because, nevertheless, you were living in Banja Luka in 1991 and

 9     1992, you knew that hundreds of small businesses belonging to non-Serbs

10     were blown up at night in Banja Luka.  That's what you told them; right?

11        A.   Yes, that's what I said, just as I spoke about all the other

12     things that I knew because I lived in the centre of town.

13        Q.   And you also told them you didn't agree with that; correct?

14        A.   Of course I didn't agree.

15        Q.   And you also told my former colleagues that you were aware that

16     thousands of Muslims and Croats were evicted from their apartments,

17     sometimes by creating fear in them and sometimes by people breaking into

18     their apartments and throwing them out of their apartments in Banja Luka.

19     That's what you said; right?

20        A.   Yes, that's what I said, I did not agree with that because I

21     thought that we Serbs were supposed to fight to defend ourselves from the

22     spectre of the Ustasha ideology among the Croats and Muslims rather than

23     fight for the property of others.  However, the situation was such that

24     people did actually do that.  But one has to put oneself into the context

25     of that time.  I don't think that these were orders coming from a higher

Page 44039

 1     level.  Quite simply, it was like an epidemic that was rampant among the

 2     population.

 3        Q.   And during this same interview in 2001, you were asked by my

 4     former colleague, Mr. Inayat, that -- you were asked:

 5             "If the Crisis Staff had really wanted, couldn't they have

 6     instructed the army and the police to ensure that such things don't

 7     happen in Banja Luka?"

 8             And you said:

 9             "Sure, they could have ..."

10             That's what you said at the time; right?

11        A.   Yes, I said that.  I also said that for a while, while

12     General Vukovic was the commander of the 1st Corps or the

13     1st Krajina Corps, order was established and the situation was much

14     better than the situation in the previous period.

15        Q.   And in fact, talking about the Crisis Staff, you also told my

16     colleagues they tolerated these criminal activities, didn't you?

17        A.   Well, I don't know whether they actually tolerated that or could

18     not resolve that problem.  I would like to point out that -- well, it's

19     not that I'm defending them or justifying what they did.  I just wish to

20     explain to this Court, and I'm offering an explanation in the context of

21     those times, wishes were one thing and the reality on the ground and the

22     possibilities that one had were different.

23        Q.   And do you remember, Mr. Grahovac, that my colleagues asked you

24     some questions, some specific questions, about Radoslav Brdjanin.  And in

25     that interview they asked you whether he talked about a percentage of

Page 44040

 1     Muslims and Croats who would be allowed to stay in the Bosanska Krajina

 2     and the rest would leave.  And your answer was that you heard from one of

 3     your Muslim neighbours that he talked about such percentages.  That's

 4     what you said; right?

 5        A.   Yes, that's what I said then, although I had not heard that

 6     directly from Mr. Brdjanin.  So I actually received this information from

 7     the colleague who worked with me and who was still in Banja Luka in 1991,

 8     1992, 1993 was involved in the JNA.

 9        Q.   And Mr. Inayat asked you what percentage he talked about, and

10     your answer to him was:

11             "I don't know really, but probably a minimum percentage in order

12     to show how Serb he is ..."

13             And you also said that he said those things because of Karadzic

14     and Krajisnik and to show how he is a big nationalist or Serb or patriot.

15     That's what you said about Mr. Brdjanin during your audio-recorded

16     interview with the OTP in 2001; right?

17        A.   Well, first of all, I would like to say that Mr. Karadzic and

18     Mr. Krajisnik in their statements never said anything about percentages

19     or the expulsion of other peoples.  I said this in the context of

20     Mr. Brdjanin's nature and his mind-set.  Quite simply, he liked to figure

21     prominently, he liked to talk too much, sometimes a bit carelessly too.

22     He did more damage to himself by what he said than by something that he

23     possibly did.  Quite simply, he wanted to prove himself before our

24     leadership.  It's not that Mr. Karadzic had anything to do with it.  He

25     wanted to show that he was the best and the strongest Serb among all of

Page 44041

 1     us.  That's what I said.

 2        Q.   Right.  So you're confirming that these were your words at the

 3     time in 2001; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  If I could have just five more minutes before we

 6     break, Your Honours?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  By all means.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll be sitting until 3.00 today.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Just one more brief area before we break for lunch, Mr. Grahovac,

14     and it's about your visit to Manjaca, and you discuss that at

15     paragraph 39 of your statement and that was in the context of your friend

16     Adnan Dzonlic.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   Yes, I remember.

18        Q.   Now, you said in your statement that all prisoners in Manjaca

19     were considered prisoners of war, but your friend Mr. Dzonlic was a

20     civilian, wasn't he?

21        A.   In that statement I explained what I had heard about Mr. Dzonlic

22     and how he had arrived in Manjaca.  According to what I heard, he had

23     been arrested in a combat area because he wanted to leave

24     Republika Srpska across Slavonia which was a combat area to go to Okucani

25     and then to Croatia.  He was going to do that through his own means.  You

Page 44042

 1     know that everybody who was caught in a war-struck area is considered a

 2     prisoner of war if they're caught there, and then they are interviewed.

 3     And if the investigators establish that they were not guilty, they either

 4     proceed with the interrogation or let him go.

 5        Q.   Right.  I'll re-tell -- I'll quote to you exactly what you said

 6     in the interview in 2001 about Mr. Dzonlic.  You said:

 7             "He wanted to leave Banja Luka and he chose a pretty incredible

 8     way to do it.  He wanted -- or I think his intention was to leave

 9     Banja Luka by escorting a very sick person, very ill person, an invalid

10     or someone like that.  He wanted to go," as you've just explained, "he

11     wanted to go through Okucani, through Western Slavonia, to Zagreb.  He

12     was found in the war zone and I think because of that -- because of where

13     they found him, they captured him and detained him.  As far as I know, he

14     was never, you know, in any of that."

15             And my colleague said:

16             "Never in any?"

17             And then you responded:

18             "Never in any of the fighting, no.  His problem was because they

19     found him in the fighting area, the war zone, and you know what that

20     means."

21             So what you were telling my colleagues in 2001 was that

22     Mr. Dzonlic was a civilian; right?  He was never in any of the fighting

23     as far as you knew?

24        A.   As far as I know, Mr. Dzonlic had not participated in any kind of

25     fighting.  I only know that he was a reserve officer of the

Page 44043

 1     Yugoslav People's Army.  I believe that he was a tank man.  He was not

 2     really actively involved in the JNA, but he also wasn't involved with the

 3     enemy forces.  I had known him from childhood.  We went to the same

 4     school, to the same university.  It was my duty to help him.  I emphasise

 5     that.  I believe that he was indeed a civilian but that he was found in a

 6     war zone.  You have to put all that in the context of war developments.

 7     It is not a comfortable situation.  People get killed in such an area for

 8     a trifle thing, so nobody really found it easy to believe that he had

 9     arrived there as a civilian.  That's why he was interrogated and later on

10     he was exchanged.  In my explanation, I said that I had tried to get him

11     released.  I appealed to Mr. Goran Bijelic, who died about that time, and

12     Mr. Stevilovic, the security chief of the 1st Krajina Corps.  In --

13     strangely enough, during those couple weeks he also got killed en route

14     from -- to Teslic.

15             THE ACCUSED:  I am having trouble with the LiveNote.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't hear you, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.  I reconnected.  I had disabled LiveNote.

18             JUDGE KWON:  In any event, we'll take a break so that could be

19     solved during the break.

20             We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at 22 past 1.00.

21                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Grahovac, I'd just like to stay with the subject of this

Page 44044

 1     Manjaca visit for a few short minutes more and get you to have a look at

 2     a document before I ask you the next question.  It's 65 ter number 25680.

 3     And it's a list of prisoners visited at Manjaca that we recovered from

 4     the ministry -- from the Kozara barracks, actually, in Banja Luka.  If we

 5     go over to page 5 of this document, please, and scroll down to number 235

 6     on the list.  There's Mr. Dzonlic's name, Mr. Grahovac, do you see that

 7     at 235?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   So it says that Mr. Dzonlic -- pardon me for the

10     mispronunciation.  That Mr. Dzonlic arrived there on 20 May 1992 and he

11     was released or, as you said, exchanged on 14 October 1992.  So whatever

12     you may or may not have been able to accomplish, he was there for five

13     months.  So what I'd like to put to you, Mr. Grahovac, is actually you

14     don't know for a fact that he was interrogated and, Mr. Grahovac, what

15     I'd like to put to you is that he was never interrogated, he was never

16     investigated because they knew right away there was no reason to

17     interrogate him.  Mr. Dzonlic, along with many other men on this list,

18     were held exclusively to be exchanged, weren't they?

19        A.   I really wouldn't be able to tell you anything about the reasons

20     why he was kept.  All I can tell you is that I tried to get him out of

21     the camp as quickly as possible at the Manjaca camp.  There were a lot of

22     people there.  As you know, everybody had to be interrogated and after

23     the interrogations, they did what they did with them.  But I think that

24     it is good that at the end of the day he was exchanged and that the story

25     ended well.

Page 44045

 1        Q.   Happily so, but, Mr. Grahovac, you've already said in 1992 you

 2     were out of it.  So you don't know that people were interrogated at all,

 3     do you?

 4        A.   As I've told you and as I stated in my statement, I was in

 5     communication with the camp warden at Manjaca, Colonel Popovic, who was

 6     my in-laws' neighbour.  He told me that procedure would be followed to

 7     the letter and that the detainees in that camp were in safe hands because

 8     they were guarded by the Yugoslav People's Army.  All that was left for

 9     me to do was to trust him.  That's all I could do.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'll move on to another area and that's about the

11     unit you discussed at paragraphs 31 and 32 of your statement, and you

12     referred to them as Milankovic's men.  That's the same unit, actually,

13     that you used to take over the Kozara transmitter in August 1991, isn't

14     it?

15        A.   Yes, that was the same man and the same unit.

16        Q.   And that unit was allowed to eventually join the army, first, the

17     JNA and later they served as a VRS unit, didn't they?

18        A.   First of all, I would like to say that that unit organised

19     itself.  It was self-organised, as it were.  According to what we

20     believed, it actually wanted to defend the Serbian people from

21     [indiscernible] aggression.  I emphasise I would like to explain things

22     to you, and for you to understand things we have to go back --

23        Q.   Well --

24        A.   -- along the history line and we have to talk about the

25     Second World War and the relationship between --

Page 44046

 1        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

 2        A.   -- Croats and Muslims and Serbs --

 3        Q.   Mr. Grahovac, if Dr. Karadzic wants to ask you about that, he

 4     can.  All I want to ask you about is whether you can confirm that this

 5     unit was allowed to eventually join the army?

 6        A.   I wish to explain the essence and the origin of that unit and how

 7     it got incorporated in the military, and I can't do it in just one or two

 8     sentences.  Allow me to continue.

 9        Q.   Well, Mr. Grahovac, do you want to answer my question or do you

10     not want to answer my question?  It's a simple question.  Was it

11     incorporated into the army or not?

12        A.   Yes, that unit was eventually incorporated into the regular army.

13        Q.   And in fact, they were considered an elite unit of the

14     Bosnian Serb army, weren't they?

15        A.   This is what I wanted to explain.  I wanted to tell you what kind

16     of unit they were and how they were organised.  I wish to do that, with

17     your permission.  Of course it was not the most elite unit of the VRS or

18     of the JNA; however, its members were patriots and they were ready to die

19     for the cause, and the cause was the defence of the Serbian people.

20        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you quickly another document, it's

21     P2855, please.

22             Right.  The document, Mr. Grahovac, that you see in front of you

23     is dated 28 July 1995 [sic], and for your information it's signed by

24     General Tolimir, and it's a report on paramilitary formations on the

25     territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 44047

 1             So my first question is:  In paragraph 1 of this document, that's

 2     the top paragraph on the page, you see that among the groups mentioned is

 3     a group called Vukovi, that's the same group as that which was led by

 4     Milankovic, isn't it?

 5        A.   Yes, they were known by that name, Vukovi, Wolves.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, if we could go over to page 5 in your language

 7     and page 4, I think, of the English translation.  So the first full

 8     paragraph at the top of the page in your language and the, I think,

 9     seventh full paragraph in English says that:

10             "The detachment of Veljko Milankovic from Prnjavor has about 150

11     men and is as of recently formally under the command of the 1 KK and

12     members of this detachment are involved in extensive looting and recently

13     attacked the Tactical Group 3 command post, arresting one army colonel in

14     the process."

15             So that's the same group, isn't it?

16        A.   I suppose that it was the same group.  I would like to emphasise

17     that there were very frequent conflicts between junior officers and the

18     officers of the JNA because JNA officers were old and hardened communists

19     and certain problems were bound to occur between the two groups.  I

20     wouldn't agree that the whole unit was problematic and that they all

21     plundered.  We can only talk about individuals and certainly not about

22     the whole unit.  I would like to stress that we did not have a choice.

23     We had to stand up against the ZNGs from Zagreb or the Green Berets.  We

24     could not use teachers or professors from the university.  We had to find

25     a good match for those people.  Put everything in the context of war,

Page 44048

 1     this is the worst condition that can strike humanity, and I'm emphasising

 2     that members of that unit were patriots, they were not all criminals.  I

 3     would agree with Mr. Karadzic, and I said that in my statement, that

 4     those who had been involved in looting should have been brought to

 5     trial --

 6        Q.   Stop.  You don't need to repeat your statement.  Thank you.  My

 7     question to you is:  This document shows that even as members of the VRS,

 8     members of this unit committed crimes; right?

 9        A.   Could you please point me to the paragraph, to the part of the

10     document that you're referring to, because I can't see it.

11        Q.   Sure.  In your language go to the first full paragraph at the top

12     of the page, where it says just after it mentions the name of the

13     detachment of Veljko Milankovic from Prnjavor, it says:

14             "... members of this detachment are involved in extensive

15     looting ..."

16             That's a crime; right?

17        A.   These were not crimes.  Let me emphasise once again.  There were

18     conflicts between the officers of the JNA who were pro-communist and

19     those new reserve officers.  There was jealousy among people.  People

20     competed for the position of the best commander, the best officer.  It's

21     a sphere of military philosophy that is hard to understand.  Because of

22     conflicts and jealousy, they spread all sorts of rumours.  I can't deny

23     and say that there were no lootings or individual thefts, but in general

24     all of our units that were attached to the VRS, their conduct followed

25     all of our rules.

Page 44049

 1        Q.   So your answer to my question is yes; correct?  Or do you even

 2     remember the question?

 3        A.   I do remember the question, and I would like to reiterate that

 4     you cannot label everything as looting and especially you cannot link

 5     that to the whole unit.

 6        Q.   That's fine, but you said that through 1992 you were out of it.

 7     That's why I just asked you a question about what the document says on

 8     its face.  So on its face this document reports members of that unit

 9     being involved in criminal activity, doesn't it?

10        A.   If that's on the face of the document, that's the document.  The

11     only question is who the author of the document is and what his

12     intentions were.  I tried to explain to you what the situation was at

13     that time in the units of the VRS.

14        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on.  I'd like you to look at a short film

15     clip now.  It's P3001.  And I think it's been synchronised, actually.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  All right, Your Honours, I wonder if my colleagues

17     in the AV booth can do something about turning up the sound, because as I

18     know from following the proceedings this is about the third time we've

19     been unable to play things in Sanction with sound.  And if it can't be

20     solved immediately, we'll have to move on.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             MS. EDGERTON:  If I may just pause for a couple of seconds,

23     Your Honour, because I come very close to the end of my

24     cross-examination, to see if this can be fixed very quickly, with your

25     permission.

Page 44050

 1             Now, rather than interrupt the flow of proceedings anymore,

 2     Your Honour, I'd just like to move on to the next area, if I may.

 3        Q.   In paragraph -- oh.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Wonderful.  If we could just go ahead with this

 6     video-clip which is P3001, please.  And thank you to my colleagues, this

 7     is clearly resolving a problem that has been of some long standing.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Journalist:  Fifth anniversary of

10     'Vukovi sa Vucijaka."  Momcilo Krajisnik, the speaker of the Assembly and

11     the SDS candidate for the Presidency, addressed the audience.

12             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  You from 'Vukovi' from Vucijak who are

13     present here today in civilian clothes rather than in uniforms, you

14     belong to this area as much as you belong to people of Dalmatian, Lika,

15     Western Slavonia, Posavina.  Your war path is difficult but glorious.

16     Since 1991 when you burned the candle of freedom defending the people of

17     the Serbian Krajina, you went through all the theatres of war and

18     participated in many combats in Republika Srpska and the

19     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  Both your friends and enemies will remember

20     you for your heroism.  You and your legendary commander Veljko Milankovic

21     are history's favourites.  I have no doubt ...  I have no doubt that

22     children in schools, and especially military school cadets, will ask

23     themselves when studying about our combat - which formation did 'Wolves

24     of Vucijak belong to.  The response will be:  It was the unit every army

25     in the world would be proud of.  Your deeds are immortal because each of

Page 44051

 1     you is worth two men.  In other words, we can say that you belonged to

 2     the entire Serbian people."

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Krajisnik here in this video-clip is talking about the

 5     same group that General Tolimir was talking about in the paragraph that I

 6     read to you from P2855 and that's the same group you used in the

 7     take-over of the Kozara transmitter in August 1991; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And I have one last question, in paragraph 22 of your

10     statement, your written evidence, you said that Dr. Karadzic was

11     vehemently opposed to the establishment of a Krajina state.  And,

12     Mr. Grahovac, the fact that Dr. Karadzic was opposed was determinative,

13     wasn't it, the fact of his opposition determined the issue; right?

14        A.   I don't understand your question.  First of all, does it relate

15     to the Republic of Serbian Krajina or does it refer to our own Krajina,

16     to the former Bosnian Krajina?

17        Q.   Well, I formulated my question based on what you wrote in your

18     statement, and you wrote that Dr. Karadzic was vehemently opposed to the

19     establishment of a Krajina state.  It never happened, did it?  A Krajina

20     state never happened; right?

21        A.   You're right, but only if you have in mind the state of Krajina

22     that would have consisted of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the

23     association of municipalities of Krajina.  It never took off the ground

24     because we actually opted for the integration of all of our Krajinas.

25        Q.   It never took off the ground because of Dr. Karadzic's

Page 44052

 1     intervention; right?

 2        A.   No, not only of Dr. Karadzic's intervention, but also some people

 3     in Krajina who did not want that and I suppose of the entire leadership

 4     at a higher level.  They had more information and they were able to reach

 5     a decision that was in the interest of the entire Serbian people.

 6        Q.   I just, before we close, want to show you a document.  It's

 7     P5452.  All right.  These are the minutes of the 14th ARK Assembly from

 8     29th February 1992, and at this Assembly, 168 -- out of a total of 168

 9     Assemblymen, 151 showed up and also attending were Dr. Karadzic,

10     Mr. Krajisnik, Professor Koljevic, and Mr. Ostojic.  And if you see that,

11     then I'd like to go over to page 2 in both languages, please.  There's

12     only two items on the agenda and the second one is the statute of the ARK

13     in the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Now, in respect to

14     item 2, you see in your language in the middle of the page and at the

15     bottom of page 2, Dr. Karadzic stressing that:

16             "It would be a crime against the Krajina if it were declared a

17     republic.  Those who advocate such childish ideas are exposing the

18     Serbian people to trouble.  The Bosnian Krajina doesn't need, he said,

19     any National Councils, since it has legally elected organs and the

20     republican Serbian authorities are fully functioning ..."

21             And after debate, if you go over to page 3 in English but stay at

22     the bottom of B/C/S.

23             After debate, the Krajina deputies accepted the constitution of

24     the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

25     concluded that the status of the ARK would be incorporated into the

Page 44053

 1     constitution of the Republic of Serbian People with 141 deputy -- 148

 2     deputies actually in agreement and no opposition whatsoever.  So this is

 3     Dr. Karadzic coming to a meeting of the Krajina Assembly determining the

 4     issue.  It was put to bed here once and for all, wasn't it?

 5        A.   To be honest, I see this document for the first time because

 6     obviously this was done in a period when I was not really very active in

 7     politics.  I would agree here with Mr. Karadzic, that these were really

 8     infantile ideas on the part of some people.  Because we needed more

 9     integration, we needed more unity rather than be divided into small

10     parochial communes.  I think the arguments advanced by Mr. Karadzic and

11     his associates - although I emphasise that I wasn't present at this

12     session - were powerful and it's probable that the deputies of the

13     session voted for.

14        Q.   That's Dr. Karadzic determining the issue, isn't it?

15        A.   You can't put it that way.  In the Assembly of Republika Srpska,

16     later when I attended the sessions, there was always a democratic debate

17     on all issues.  It's a different matter that in some situations

18     Mr. Karadzic's arguments were strong enough to prevail.  We have to

19     remember that he was the greatest authority for us and he had the best

20     ideas and the best solutions for all issues crucial to the Serbian people

21     in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just two or three questions,

Page 44054

 1     Your Excellency.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Grahovac, while we have this document before

 4     us and while we are discussing the suggestion that I determined the

 5     outcome of this session, could you tell us, did I have any instruments,

 6     any tools to push through my political will?  Did I punish or expel

 7     people or did I just win them over by the strength of my arguments?

 8        A.   I think I can be very objective on this issue.  You know that

 9     sometimes we saw things differently on certain political issues, but it

10     is true that the strongest political arguments won the day in the end.

11     You did not have any instruments of power to make people, to force

12     people, to accept your views.

13        Q.   You began to talk about the reasons for self-organisation, that's

14     on page 58, and you recalled the barbaric behaviour of the Muslims and

15     the Ustashas during the Second World War.  Could you complete that

16     thought?  And you were talking about how it came about that the Wolves

17     organised themselves?

18        A.   Yes, I had indeed started to talk about that.  The barbaric acts

19     of the Muslims and Ustashas, especially in the Second World War, brought

20     out the worst in the masses and I'll give you a few examples beginning

21     with my own personal example and later citing some general ones.  From my

22     earliest childhood, I heard from my parents, my grandmother, I heard

23     horrible stories about the sufferings of our ancestors.  My grandmother,

24     Ljuba, lost her two sons to Ustasha hands, Veljko and Rada.  My uncle who

25     lived in Novi Grad municipality was found left for dead by the Ustashas

Page 44055

 1     and my grandmother took him in and raised him as her own son --

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- there are many things concerning

 4     the concentration camps --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Are you going to tell us you joined the Wolves

 6     because of those facts?  I'm not following where are we going?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to explain if you let

 8     me.  The thing is that people were aware what had happened in the

 9     Second World War and they didn't dare to and didn't want to allow that

10     situation to be repeated, wherein a hundred Serbs would be taken to be

11     slaughtered by one Ustasha.  To this day there is a cemetery in Mirogoj

12     with the graves of 842 children, children who were killed in the only

13     concentration camp for children that ever existed in the world.  That was

14     the Jastrebarsko camp.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I think we heard enough about this.

16             If you could -- would like to add anything specifically with

17     respect to the Wolves, but otherwise please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Just tell us, why did people not rely on the federal state and

20     the JNA to protect them and why did they self-organise instead into the

21     Wolves and other groups?

22        A.   We had thought that the JNA would take our Serbian side, but in

23     fact it didn't happen that way.  In practice, there were a lot of

24     communists among the top JNA cadre, including General Uzelac, who was too

25     busy doing less-important things, so that the people had to organise

Page 44056

 1     themselves, had to take things into their own hands, and had to defend

 2     themselves from another genocide.  That was the reason for all these

 3     units that had organised themselves.

 4        Q.   His Excellency, the Presiding Judge, asked you if that was the

 5     reason why you joined the Wolves.  Were you a member of the Wolves or did

 6     you just defend them inasmuch as they were not criminals?

 7        A.   I was not a member of the Wolves.  I was a man who was

 8     politically active and of course I supported all the patriotic forces

 9     that participated in the defence of the Serbian people, and of course I

10     was in favour of punishing all those who were responsible for looting and

11     other crimes.  Certainly I was not a member of the Wolves from Vucijak

12     and I don't deserve to be given such an honour.

13        Q.   On page 61 it was put to you that there had been buildings blown

14     up, break-ins, looting, et cetera.  How did the authorities view that?

15     How did they react?  And did the Muslims and Croats report these things

16     to the authorities?  How did the authorities treat these crimes?

17        A.   To be frank, I don't know how the local authorities in these

18     places where it happened acted, but from the few examples that I know, I

19     believe that many prominent people, people who hold high offices in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina now should be here instead of you and they were

21     pursuing their own interests.  That's the reason why our just cause was

22     tarnished, because many people put their own personal interests before

23     the interests of the people.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Is it the case that Muslims and Croats remained to

25     live during the war in Banja Luka normally; and if so, how many?

Page 44057

 1        A.   I think Banja Luka can actually be proud that the greatest

 2     percentage of Muslims and Croats remained there.  Those who joined our

 3     army were respected members of the community, and I remember there was a

 4     man, a Croat, Tonce [phoen] Ruzic, who worked as the deputy of our

 5     municipality.  In my company there were at least 10, 15 Muslims and

 6     Croats and there -- in my unit, my infantry unit, there were also about

 7     10 and 15 Muslims and Croats who fought together with us.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

10             Thank you, Mr. Grahovac.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like

11     to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free

12     to go.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE KWON:  And you didn't tender the list of prisoners visited

15     at Manjaca?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  No, there was no need, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Very well.

18             Mr. Tieger and Mr. Robinson, it's about the scheduling next year

19     after the winter recess.  We'll resume on the 16th, Thursday.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

23     please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 44058

 1                           WITNESS:  NIKOLA ERCEG

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Erceg.  Please be seated and make

 4     yourself comfortable.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Erceg, before you commence your evidence, I must

 7     draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at

 8     the international Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may

 9     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or

10     even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

11     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

12     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

13     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

14     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

15     answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer

16     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

17     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

18     would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

19     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence,

20     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

21             Do you understand that, sir?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

24                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Erceg.

Page 44059

 1        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Please let us speak slowly, both of us, and between questions and

 3     answers we need to make a short pause.  If you look at the transcript,

 4     pay attention to the cursor, that means the interpretation is finished.

 5             Have you given a statement to my Defence team?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D9530.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you see that statement before you on the screen?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Have you read it and signed it?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the last

14     page so that he can identify his signature.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Is this your signature?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Does this statement faithfully reflect what you have stated to

19     the Defence team?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions today, would your

22     answers be substantially the same?

23        A.   Essentially, they would be the same, but not verbatim because of

24     the passage of time.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 44060

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this 92 ter statement,

 2     Your Excellencies.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, if you could explain us about the

 4     associated exhibits you are tendering.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're tendering 41 associated

 6     exhibits.  One of them is not on our 65 ter list and we would ask that it

 7     be added.  It was left off due to oversight and that's 05453.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there are several documents that have been

 9     already admitted?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  There are, although I believe that the 41 that I

11     referred to are the ones that are not admitted.

12             JUDGE KWON:  1D9856 referred to in para 27, I take it that has

13     been admitted as Exhibit D3970; and 1D9859 referred to in para 40 was

14     admitted as Exhibit D4036; and 1D9882 referred to in para 82 was admitted

15     as D4057; and 1D9886 referred to in para 96 was admitted as

16     Exhibit D4044; and 1D9887 referred to in para 97 was admitted as

17     Exhibit D4050; and 65 ter 5453 referred to in para 39 was admitted as

18     Exhibit D4035; and 65 ter 5831 referred to in para 24 was admitted

19     Exhibit D4015; and finally, 65 ter number 17188 referred to in para 45

20     was admitted as Exhibit D4037.  And I'm not sure whether the English

21     translation was 65 ter 15075 referred to in para 90 was English

22     translation of 65 ter 1575 referred to in para 90 was uploaded.  There

23     seems to be some duplication in 1D9874 referred to in para 64, I'm

24     referring to the English translations.  So if the Defence could check it

25     later on.

Page 44061

 1             Otherwise, do you have any objection, Mr. Tieger?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So -- except for those that have been already

 4     admitted, the Rule 92 ter statement as well as the associated exhibits

 5     will be admitted into evidence.

 6             Shall we assign the number for the statement.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement receives Exhibit D4086,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             The other numbers will be assigned in due course by the Registry.

11             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I will

13     now read out a short summary of Mr. Erceg's statement in English.

14             [In English] At the municipal and regional level,

15     Mr. Nikola Erceg held the following positions:  Member of the

16     Municipal Board of the Serbian Democratic Party; a deputy in the

17     Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka; in March 1992, president of the

18     Executive Committee of the Autonomous Region of Krajina; in May 1992,

19     member of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina; member of

20     the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka municipality; member of the Banja Luka

21     commission for the collection of food for the Army of Republika Srpska.

22     Towards the end of July 1995, Nikola Erceg was appointed as a member of

23     the War Presidency of the municipality of Banja Luka.

24             Furthermore, on the republican and federal level, Nikola Erceg

25     performed the duties of a deputy in the Assembly of

Page 44062

 1     Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo and in the Assembly of the

 2     Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia in Belgrade after the first

 3     multi-party elections in 1990; then a deputy in the Assembly of the

 4     Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina after its establishment in

 5     October 1991; in the second half of 1992, Mr. Erceg was a minister for

 6     industry and energy in the Government of Republika Srpska; in

 7     September 1992, deputy chairman of the legislative commission of the

 8     Assembly of the Republika Srpska; in April 1993, a member of the

 9     legislative committee of the Assembly of Republika Srpska; in May 1993, a

10     member of the board of the National Bank of Republika Srpska.

11     Nikola Erceg worked also as a director of the electricity supply company

12     of Republika Srpska.

13             Nikola Erceg never became familiar with Variants A and B plans

14     and their content.  In those times, the Serbs' main intention was to

15     remain in a joint state of Yugoslavia.

16             The ARK Assembly adopted a decision to form an ARK Crisis Staff,

17     headed by Brdjanin.  The Crisis Staff became the main body of ARK.

18             The ARK Crisis Staff had no jurisdiction over the police, nor

19     could it issue orders to the army, which had its own chain of command.

20     After the ARK Crisis Staff was established, the Executive Committee

21     continued with its regular sessions, but no longer on a daily basis.

22             Nikola Erceg was not aware of the reason why the Crisis Staff of

23     the Autonomous Region of Krajina was renamed to War Staff, nor if there

24     were any instructions issued from Pale regarding the members of the

25     Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff or any rules of procedure

Page 44063

 1     therein.

 2             There was a rift between the Sarajevo option and the Krajina

 3     option because the Banja Luka intellectuals were in favour of

 4     establishing a state that would comprise the two Krajinas (Bosnian and

 5     Croatian), which was opposed by the Sarajevo option led by Karadzic.

 6             With the outbreak of war, Pale was unable to exert control over

 7     Serbian communities, which prompted the establishment of a regional

 8     government, for example, in Banja Luka, because it was impossible to

 9     communicate with Pale due to the simple fact that all communication lines

10     were severed and no regular contacts could be maintained.

11             Mr. Nikola Erceg was not content with the co-operation between

12     certain municipal organs and his office.  Some municipalities

13     demonstrated a high degree of independence because they were economically

14     strong.  The ARK was unable to control municipalities like Prijedor.  It

15     was up to the municipalities to accept or reject the decisions of the ARK

16     in spite of the ARK Crisis Staff decisions that all ARK Crisis Staff

17     decisions were binding for the municipal organs in the ARK.

18             Nikola Erceg was present at the ARK Crisis Staff meetings when

19     the existence of Omarska and Keraterm was mentioned, but all they

20     discussed with the municipal representatives was logistical support and

21     the financing of those centres.  Manjaca was discussed at the ARK

22     Crisis Staff meetings in the same context.  The ARK policy was not aimed

23     at a violent or any other form of expulsion or persecution of the

24     non-Serb population, and so the ARK Crisis Staff adopted few decisions

25     and conclusions in that respect.

Page 44064

 1             The Banja Luka municipality Assembly, SO, which had Muslims --

 2     Muslim and Croatian representatives, paid attention to the ownership of

 3     property, and so properties belonging to those who had left Banja Luka

 4     were given for temporary use and an inventory was made of all belongings

 5     and their condition so that they could be returned intact to their

 6     rightful owners.

 7             While working as a director of the Electricity Supply Company of

 8     Republika Srpska, Nikola Erceg witnessed problems concerning power cuts

 9     on a daily basis in households in Banja Luka.  However, that did not

10     attract as much attention as Sarajevo.  He himself did not have

11     electricity in the centre of Banja Luka for 40 days at a time.

12             And at the moment, I do not have additional questions for

13     Mr. Erceg.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Erceg, as you have noted, your evidence in chief

15     in this case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your witness

16     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you will be cross-examined

17     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

18             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

21        Q.   Mr. Erceg, although I understand this is your first time

22     testifying here it the Tribunal, you gave statements, that is,

23     interviews, that were taped in 2001 and 2002 to representatives of the

24     Tribunal; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 44065

 1        Q.   And indeed, portions of those interviews comprise parts of your

 2     current statement before this Court?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   I therefore presume that your position is that you were telling

 5     the truth during those interviews; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   In paragraph 74 of the statement that you saw a few moments ago

 8     on the screen - and, Mr. Erceg, if at any time you need a hard copy of

 9     that statement, I think it can be provided for you or we can call it up

10     on the screen - but at paragraph 74 you state:

11             "It is clear that everyone had the right to their property even

12     after moving out."

13             Now, in fact, Mr. Erceg, you don't really know much about this at

14     all and you don't know, really, whether people had the right to their

15     property or not.  And you even acknowledged that in your own statement at

16     a later portion.  That's the case, isn't it?  You don't know much about

17     this issue and you admitted it in your statement at paragraph 85?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, in paragraph 39 of your statement, you state that the

20     ARK Crisis Staff was established on the 5th of May, 1992, and you also

21     state that this was "in accordance with the instructions from Pale ..."

22             But then you go on to explain that characterisation in accordance

23     by saying that you meant that it was possible that somebody misconstrued

24     those instructions from Pale.  Previously, however, during your 2001

25     interview you stated instead that the -- for example, the position which

Page 44066

 1     was asserted by the ARK Crisis Staff in a conclusion of 26 May 1992,

 2     where it was stated by the ARK Crisis Staff that the decisions of the

 3     staff are binding for all Crisis Staffs in the municipalities, was "the

 4     consequence of the document issued by the president of the RS government,

 5     Mr. Djeric ..."

 6             That's found at 1D9896 at e-court page 36.  That's your 2001

 7     interview.  You're welcome to see it, but if you can -- you may be able

 8     to confirm in any event that that was the position you took when you were

 9     asked about this issue in 2001.

10             THE ACCUSED:  May I just ask honourable Mr. Tieger, what -- what

11     statement he is using?

12             JUDGE KWON:  He referred to 39 -- but it should be 38 of his

13     statement, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  That may be that you're right.  We'll get to the

15     reason I'm misnumbering that in a moment.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And I apologise for that, and I'll try to watch the

18     particular numbers, maybe have my colleague double-check as I recite

19     them.  So thank you for that, Mr. Karadzic.

20        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Erceg.  I think the substance was clear enough,

21     but I'll try to be precisely accurate about the numbers of the

22     paragraphs.

23             So my -- my question was with regard to the portion of your

24     statement where you said that the establishment of the ARK Crisis Staff

25     on the 5th of May, 1992, was in accordance with the instructions from

Page 44067

 1     Pale, but your further comment in this current statement that it was --

 2     you said that because it was possible that someone misconstrued the

 3     instructions for Pale.  I'm now confronting you with what you said in

 4     2001, where you noted that, for example, that the conclusion of the ARK

 5     Crisis Staff on the 26th of May that its decisions were binding, was in

 6     your words "the consequence of the document issued by the president of

 7     the RS government, Mr. Djeric ..."

 8             And I was simply asking you, if you were able to do so, to

 9     confirm that that is indeed the position you took in 2001 when you were

10     interviewed by representatives of the Tribunal?

11        A.   I cannot confirm whether I was correctly interpreted; however, I

12     know that at the time there was a great deal of confusion about that.  I

13     personally thought that the Crisis Staff should not have been established

14     at the level of the ARK Krajina, since that had to do with each and every

15     municipality.  As for this fact whether or not there were requests from

16     Pale for them to be established, this is what the confusion was all

17     about.  At first, we did not have any written instructions from

18     Prime Minister Djeric.  Roughly, it turned out on the basis of stories

19     that this was supposed to be done, there were instructions coming from

20     Sarajevo -- no, from Pale to have that done.  I think that after a while

21     this instruction from Djeric did arrive, and on the basis of that I

22     understood that I was right; namely, that the Krajina should not have

23     been established -- I mean, not the Krajina, the Crisis Staff of the

24     Krajina.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 44068

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Well, in that case I would tender page 36 of 1D9896,

 2     Mr. President.

 3        Q.   I'd like to turn also --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, let the ...

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit this page.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we assign a number for this.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It's P6528, Your Honours.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   And similarly, I'd like to turn to what you said in 2002 to the

11     representatives of the Tribunal, this time at pages 45 through 48.

12             MR. TIEGER:  That's 1D09895.

13        Q.   Now, the context here again, Mr. Erceg, and I can go back several

14     pages to show you the specific reference to the May 5th, 1992, date on

15     which -- which you referred to previously and which is reflected in your

16     statement for the founding of the Crisis Staff.  But in 2002 this issue

17     was raised with you and you said the following.  First of all, at page --

18     start on page 45, please --

19             JUDGE KWON:  You have ERN number?

20             MR. TIEGER:  It should start -- should start toward the bottom of

21     that page, Mr. President.

22        Q.   You say -- you were asked:

23             "Can you name the people who were appointed to the Crisis Staff?"

24             And then the answer is not heard.

25             The question is:

Page 44069

 1             "You told us that you issued this decision as a result of orders

 2     from Pale."

 3             And then the clarification:

 4             "That a Crisis Staff be formed ..."

 5             That's your remarks to the interpreter, the question is asked:

 6             "Who picked the people who were to be on this Crisis Staff?"

 7             And then it continues and there's some inaudibles:

 8             "Q.  Did someone else tell him to choose the people we see in the

 9     next page?"

10             And then we see in the middle of the page:

11             "I think it might have been Brdjanin."

12             The question was asked:

13             "Who gave you the names to put into this decision?

14             "A.  I think it might have been Brdjanin, I don't know.  Someone

15     gave it to me, I know that I didn't comprise these names by myself.

16             "Q.  So the orders came from Pale that there was to be a

17     Crisis Staff formed and Brdjanin gave you the names of the people."

18             You say:

19             "I believe it was Brdjanin ... and the contents of this document

20     is purely in format, it is prepared according to that which was issued

21     from Pale.

22             "And how did you receive the orders from Pale, do you remember?"

23     You were asked.

24             And you say:

25             "I don't know, usually let's say it would come via Brdjanin

Page 44070

 1     himself, I asked him on paper and he says yes, on paper.

 2             "Q.  Again, so the orders that came from Pale would come via

 3     Brdjanin?"

 4             And you said:

 5             "I'm talking just about this specifically."

 6             And "this specifically" as we saw was the instruction from Pale

 7     describing the Crisis Staff.

 8             So contrary to what you now say in paragraph 37 about receiving

 9     no instructions regarding the membership of the Crisis Staff and contrary

10     to the position you take in paragraph 39 that the establishment of the

11     Crisis Staff in accordance with instructions for Pale only meant that

12     somebody misconstrued the Djeric instructions, the fact is that when you

13     first discussed this issue more than ten years ago, much closer to the

14     events in question, you stated that these -- that the establishment of

15     the Crisis Staff, as reflected on the May 5th document, was pursuant to

16     instructions from Pale; correct?

17        A.   That's the way it should be, but I'm not sure because at first

18     there were no instructions sort of and then this instruction appeared.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I didn't want to

20     interrupt before the witness answered.  I give him a lot of credit for

21     answering that question directly, but to me that question is extremely

22     hard to follow.  It practically takes up a page of transcript, and I

23     think it would be better in the future if Mr. Tieger could break up his

24     questions so it's easier for the witness.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Well, yes -- but, Mr. Tieger --

Page 44071

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  -- from his 2002 interview, did you find a passage

 3     where the witness said the orders came from Pale?  I read Madam Korner's

 4     questions, but I'm not sure whether I read the answer confirming the

 5     question.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Well, here's one.  A question was:

 7             "So the orders came from Pale that there was to be a" -- this is

 8     page --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We start from 46.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Bottom.

12             "So the orders that came from Pale would come via Brdjanin ..."

13             Yes, start from there, yes.  That's --

14             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  Right.

15             "I believe it was Brdjanin and the contents of this document is

16     purely in format, it is prepared according to that which was issued from

17     Pale."

18             Then he's asked:

19             "How did you receive the orders ... ?"

20             He says:

21             "I don't know, usually let's say it would come via Brdjanin

22     himself, I asked him on paper and he said yes on paper.

23             "So the orders that came from Pale would come via Brdjanin?"

24             And he said:

25             "I'm talking just about this specifically."

Page 44072

 1             So he reduced the discussion to this [Overlapping speakers] --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  All we heard is that he referred to Brdjanin:  "I

 3     believe it was Brdjanin ..."

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not following your question, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So the order came from Pale --

 6             MR. TIEGER:  "So the orders that came from Pale," which is the

 7     subject of this discussion.  Did you get orders from Pale?  And he said

 8     previous it was prepared according to that which was issued from Pale,

 9     that is the membership [overlapping speakers] --

10             JUDGE KWON:  That was the question and his answer was:

11             "I believe it was Brdjanin ..."

12             MR. TIEGER:  So the question was:

13             "The orders came from Pale that there was to be a Crisis Staff

14     formed and Brdjanin gave you the names of the people."

15             JUDGE KWON:  That's the question.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Right.

17             "A.  I believe it was Brdjanin ... and the contents of this

18     document," meaning the May 5th document, "is purely in format.  It is

19     prepared according to that which was issued from Pale."

20             And then the question was:

21             "And how did you receive the orders from Pale ..."

22             And he said:

23             "I don't know, usually ... let's say it would come via Brdjanin

24     himself ..."

25             And then the question was:

Page 44073

 1             "So the orders that came from Pale would come via Brdjanin?"

 2             And the answer was:

 3             "Well, I'm talking just about this specifically."

 4             So this focused on the subject matter at hand which was the

 5     relationship between the 5 May 1992 document that he prepared and the

 6     instructions from Pale.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

 8             Please continue.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  So I would tender those pages, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit them as Exhibit P6529.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Now, that particular permutation of the Crisis Staff that was

13     reflected in the May 5 document that was recorded there by you -- well,

14     Mr. Erceg, you were aware that an ARK Crisis Staff or regional

15     Crisis Staff has been in existence since at least February 1992; correct?

16     I believe you were asked about that as well in your previous interview.

17        A.   No, I don't know that.  I don't know whether it was before the

18     month of May.  In Sarajevo, Izetbegovic, they did form a Crisis Staff at

19     the Presidency.

20        Q.   All right.  If we can turn to 1D9896, your 2001 interview and

21     turn to page 42, toward the bottom, please.  Were you asked:

22             "Who established the ARK Crisis Staff?  Who was it established

23     by?"

24             You said:

25             "All the -- all the instructions, decisions that managed to find

Page 44074

 1     their way to the ARK, they needed to be formalised.  They needed to

 2     have -- because of their own accord they couldn't become legally binding

 3     in any way but."

 4             The question was asked:

 5             "So you're saying that you formalised, what was the informal

 6     arrangement for the first four months of 1992 or for the first five

 7     months of 1992 in that document dated 5 May 1992?"

 8             Your answer was:

 9             "Well, it did not really function in the early months but this,

10     this was made formal, this formalised the whole.  Maybe it did function

11     as far as the individual actions by many of the people involved, yes.

12     But the actual formal decision of establishing the Crisis Staff was this

13     one, this is when it was made formal."

14             So, first of all, those were your -- that was your position in

15     2001 when you were asked about the Crisis Staff that was reflected in the

16     May 5th document and about the existence of a Crisis Staff that preceded

17     it; correct?

18        A.   May I say something, please?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, yes.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

21             I don't understand this at all.  Nothing had to be formalised.

22     And in the meantime, I believe that it was in March, the

23     Executive Council of the ARK was set up in order to do whatever it was

24     supposed to do.  It was only in May, on the 5th of May, that the

25     Crisis Staff was set up.  Everything that was done up to then was

Page 44075

 1     formalised through the work of the Executive Council of the ARK.  At the

 2     moment when the Crisis Staff was set up, the Crisis Staff gradually took

 3     over all the things and authorities that were supposed to be continued

 4     through the Executive Council.  The Executive Council gradually faded out

 5     and the Crisis Staff was gradually more and more activated in various

 6     spheres of life.  Now, whether that had to be formalised with some kind

 7     of a decision, I --

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Erceg, no, I think you're focusing on something quite

10     different.  I had asked you about the Crisis Staff referred to in the

11     5 May document and about the existence of a Crisis Staff before and asked

12     you to confirm or dispute the position you took in 2001.  So I'd like to

13     now tender those pages, pages 42 and 43, and show you one additional

14     document related to that issue.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, we'll add those two pages to

16     Exhibit P6528.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And can I call up 65 ter 05415, please.

18        Q.   What you'll see coming up on the screen, Mr. Erceg, is a decision

19     of the 24th of February, 1992, from the SDS Executive Committee signed by

20     Mr. Dukic, appointing Mr. Vukic as co-ordinator for SAO Krajina, and

21     listing his duties which include, as you can see in the third entry under

22     number 2:

23             "To take part in the work of the SAO Krajina Crisis Staff ..."

24             Now, that, sir, is a reflection of the existence of an SAO

25     Krajina Crisis Staff as of that date, a Crisis Staff which you referred

Page 44076

 1     to when you were interviewed in 2001?

 2        A.   So why was the decision on the setting up of the Crisis Staff

 3     issued on the 5th of May if this thing was in effect at the same time?  I

 4     believe that this was at the republican level, I assume, but I'm not

 5     sure.  And if this was the basis for the work of the Crisis Staff, why

 6     did we formalise the Crisis Staff of the ARK only three months later with

 7     a decision of the Executive Council?  It doesn't make sense.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I'd tender this document, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  P6530, Your Honours.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Erceg, at paragraph 22 of your current statement you say

13     that the Autonomous Region of Krajina was formed at the outbreak of the

14     war because it was impossible to communicate with Pale due to the fact

15     that all communication lines were severed and no regular contact could be

16     made.  Similarly at paragraph 34 you state that the lack of communication

17     with Pale was the reason for forming ARK institutions.

18             Now, first of all, Mr. Erceg, the plain reality is that the

19     ARK -- the ARK, the Autonomous Region of Krajina, was established months

20     before the outbreak of the conflict and any alleged communication

21     difficulties; correct?  In fact, it was established on the

22     16th of December, 1991.

23        A.   No.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Let's call up P3421, please.

25        Q.   This is a decision on the proclamation of the Autonomous Region

Page 44077

 1     of Krajina as an inseparable part of the federal state of federative

 2     Yugoslavia.  It describes what is intended to be some of the territory --

 3     what is and is intended to be some of the territory.  It states in

 4     Article 5 that:

 5             "The Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina will reach a

 6     temporary decision on the government ... and the organisation ...,"

 7     et cetera.

 8             And if we look to the end of the document, we'll see the date of

 9     its issuance in Banja Luka as 16 September 1991.  And it's signed by

10     Mr. Kupresanin.

11             This was the transformation, the transition, from the ZOBK into

12     the Autonomous Region of Krajina, wasn't it?

13        A.   This document, while the federal state of Yugoslavia was still

14     alive, and I don't mean that it lived as a state, it was in the stage of

15     disintegration and this was produced in order to calm down the situation,

16     to regenerate the state, and to provide conditions conducive to political

17     activities.  So this is not the same ARK which was established due to war

18     activities on the ground and as a result of the fact that life had to be

19     organised on the ground.  These are two totally different terms.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I'm moving into a slightly different

21     topic which certainly can't be covered in the few minutes left.  It may

22     be better to break now.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, if I could return to one

25     associated exhibit issue, it's number 15075, and this was one that the

Page 44078

 1     translation wasn't available to the Chamber.  But in fact we had asked

 2     the OTP to upload the translation and by mistake they hadn't done it.

 3     But they've done it now.  So I would ask the Chamber if it would look at

 4     that document and if it believes that it's an inseparable part of the

 5     statement to also admit it as an associated exhibit.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will take a look.

 7             We shall adjourn for today and continue tomorrow morning.

 8     Mr. Erceg, I would like to advise you not to discuss with anybody else

 9     about your testimony while you are giving evidence at The Hague.  Do you

10     understand that, sir?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.57 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

15                           November, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.