1 Wednesday, 18 December 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: RADOMIR RADINKOVIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Radinkovic. Please be seated and
13 make yourself comfortable.
14 Mr. Radinkovic, before you commence your evidence, I must draw
15 your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the
16 International Tribunal. That is Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may
17 object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or
18 even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate
19 you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
20 something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal
21 offence or saying something that might provide evidence that might
22 suggest you have committed a criminal offence.
23 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you
24 and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you
25 know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the
1 question. But in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your
2 testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in any
3 case that might be laid against you for any offence, save and except the
4 offence of giving false testimony.
5 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Radinkovic?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have. Thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,
10 Your Excellencies. Good morning, everyone.
11 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Thank you for making a pause between questions and answers, and
15 you should remind me, too, to make a sufficiently long pause for
16 everything to be recorded.
17 Have you given a statement to my Defence team?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
21 in e-court 1D49035.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you see the front page of your statement?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Thank you. Have you read and signed this statement?
1 A. Yes, in full.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness
3 the last page to identify it.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Is this your signature?
6 A. That's my signature.
7 Q. Thank you. Does this statement faithfully reflect what you have
8 said to the Defence team? Is there anything you would like to correct?
9 A. All of it is exactly what I said, what I was able to remember
10 after all this time, and at this time I have no additions to make.
11 Q. If I were to put to you the same questions today as those put to
12 you by my associates, would your answers be essentially the same as in
13 the statement?
14 A. They believed be completely the same.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under
17 Rule 92 ter.
18 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: No.
20 JUDGE KWON: About the associated exhibits?
21 MS. EDGERTON: No.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll admit them both. Shall we assign the
23 numbers for them.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The statement received Exhibit Number D4204. The
25 associated exhibit 05460 receives Exhibit Number D4205, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now read in
4 English the summary of Mr. Radomir Radinkovic's statement.
5 [In English] Radomir Radinkovic was mobilised on June the 21st,
6 1991, and served as an OB (intelligence and security) officer in the JNA.
7 He was mobilised into the VRS in May 1992 and was also assigned to the
8 post of intelligence and security officer at the 1st Krajina Corps.
9 The Manjaca camp was set up by the command of the JNA and it
10 served as a camp for the prisoners of war captured in Stara Gradiska in
11 Croatia. The police were in charge of external security and the military
12 police were in charge of the internal security. Civilian police only
13 went inside the camp when bringing in new prisoners, while military
14 police went into the camp compound to bring people in for questioning or
15 for medical examinations. No one ever ordered or allowed that the rights
16 of prisoners be violated and every effort was made to protect the
17 prisoners from irresponsible individuals.
18 It will role of the OB was to ensure security and safety in the
19 camp, to report to the superior command, and to propose protective
20 measures. Reports were sent at least once week, and sometimes on a daily
21 basis and addressed all the issues of importance for the security.
22 The civilian police interrogated prisoners in the camp in order
23 to examine them and to document any previously committed crimes. They
24 did this with the knowledge and approval of the OB chief of the
25 1st Krajina Corps. Upon their arrival, prisoners were made aware of
1 their rights and obligations in connection with the status of prisoners
2 of war and their state in the camp. Medical examinations were then
3 performed, and hygiene and prevention measures were taken before
4 transferring prisoners to their assigned accommodation in the facility.
5 All those who worked on breaking up the state were considered and
6 treated as the extremists. Security services submitted information about
7 the individuals who had taken part in incidents in the field so that
8 measures could be taken to prevent other security incidents.
9 Specifically, they had intelligence about the extreme activities of
10 Omer Filipovic, who was the founder of the SDA in Kljuc and who
11 established a paramilitary formation in the area.
12 Most prisoners in the Manjaca camp were Muslims, some were
13 Croats, and there were a few Serbs. Prisoners were selected and released
14 based on the evaluation and proposals by the operational team of the OB,
15 by the camp commander, medical services, and the approval of the command
16 of the 1st Krajina Corps.
17 The killing of Omer Filipovic and Esad Bender have been done by
18 some members of the military police acting on their own volition. This
19 case was dealt by the crime-fighting service of the military police
20 battalion. The perpetrators were suspended and criminal proceedings were
21 instigated against them. After the war, they were convicted by the
22 district court in Banja Luka.
23 Prisoners of war were given status under the Geneva Conventions,
24 which meant that they were registered and verified, that lists were
25 compiled, health care was provided, together with the regular meals,
1 sufficient quantities of drinking water, and accommodation, and that they
2 were allowed visits by the ICRC through whom they maintained contact with
3 their families. People caught without weapons could also be considered
4 as prisoners of war, in case they assisted members of the armed forces or
5 put up unarmed resistance. The ICRC reports on the treatment of the
6 prisoners are generally accurate; however, sections of these reports are
7 biased. They failed to take into account the general situation and the
8 inability to ensure better conditions. Some people were held in the
9 camps for their own safety.
10 The ICRC and many journalists were granted approval to visit the
11 camp by President Karadzic. Some of the prisoners were released on
12 14th of November, 1992. This group was composed by the young, the
13 elderly, and those in extremely poor health. Some sick prisoners were
14 also pardoned and sent to Geneva for medical treatment. No more
15 prisoners were transferred to the Manjaca camp after 6th of August, 1992,
16 and in December 1992 the camp was closed.
17 If someone from security harassed prisoners of war, measures were
18 taken against them. Charges were brought against the perpetrators
19 responsible for incidents in the camp and most of them have already been
20 processed. Within the possibilities at the time, maximum treatment was
21 provided in terms of accommodation, water supply, food, medical
22 treatment, and hygiene. Vojo Kupresanin, a leading man in the ARK,
23 visited the camp in 1992. The aim of his visit was to convince the
24 prisoners of war that a solution would be found as to the question of
25 their release from custody. He also issued a document pardoning some
1 prisoners of war. The Republika Srpska leadership did not order or
2 recommend the ill-treatment or liquidation of prisoners of war.
3 And that is the summary. At that moment, I do not have questions
4 for Mr. Radinkovic.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 Mr. Radinkovic, your evidence in chief in this case has been
7 admitted in writing, that is, through your written statement. Now, you
8 will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the
10 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic.
14 A. [In English] Good morning.
15 Q. Do you understand English?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radinkovic, I'd like to start your
18 cross-examination by getting you to confirm some information about
19 Manjaca that's additional to what you spoke about in your statement.
20 First, you can confirm, I take it, that particularly between June
21 and August 1992 Manjaca received a massive number of prisoners; right?
22 A. [Interpretation] Yes, and even the number of these arrivals is
24 Q. Well -- okay, talking about the number, at its -- its fullest,
25 the prisoner population at Manjaca was in excess of 3.500 people; right?
1 A. It never reached that number at any one time. The maximum at one
2 time was around 2.000, because some people left and new ones came. They
3 departed to be exchanged. They were transported to third countries or
4 elsewhere. And some new people came.
5 Q. Well, now, are you quite sure about those figures? Because I've
6 read your testimony that you gave in 2011 to the state court in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there you said that the population ranged,
8 actually. At page 29, you said it was almost 3.000, and then at page 68
9 you said at one point it went up to maybe 4-, 4.500?
10 A. That's what I said. It varied. Sometimes there were more,
11 sometimes less. That's what I was trying to explain.
12 Q. Fine, thank you. And you talked in your written evidence about
13 the ethnic background of the prisoners at Manjaca, and in the summary of
14 your evidence Dr. Karadzic said that most were Bosnian Muslims. In fact,
15 over 85 per cent were Bosniaks; that's right, isn't it?
16 A. Precisely.
17 Q. And this massive amount of prisoners came predominantly to your
18 camp from detention sites in Kljuc, Prijedor, and Sanski Most; correct?
19 A. Yes, precisely.
20 Q. And they also came from Doboj, Mrkonjic Grad?
21 A. From Doboj, yes, but we have no records that anyone came from
22 Mrkonjic Grad, maybe they were from Kljuc. But there was one group from
24 Q. Jajce --
25 A. More precisely from Rudari or some place like that. We didn't
1 have a separate list.
2 Q. Jajce?
3 A. There was no separate list from Jajce either.
4 Q. Bosanska Dubica?
5 A. There were no organised transports from Bosanska Dubica. There
6 is a possibility that some people from there were brought with groups
7 from Prijedor and others to the Manjaca camp, but not specifically from
9 Q. That's fine. Now, the transfer of these prisoners from all these
10 locations to Manjaca from the areas I've just listed, that involved the
11 co-operation of the police forces, didn't it?
12 A. Transports were handled exclusively by the civilian police from
13 other collection centres, from other towns, that was the responsibility
14 of the civilian police. They brought these people and handed them over
15 to Manjaca camp. By entering the camp, from the moment of entering the
16 camp, they became prisoners of war.
17 Q. Now all of these prisoners that you said 85 per cent of were
18 Bosniaks, the rest, the other 15 per cent were Croats; right?
19 A. Croats and just a few Serbs, yes.
20 Q. Now, I just want to talk about what Dr. Karadzic described in his
21 summary as their assigned accommodation. You can confirm that the
22 prisoners at Manjaca were housed in cattle sheds; right?
23 A. These structures were originally cattle sheds, but they were
24 adapted for a different use, so they were no longer cattle sheds. They
25 were hangars prepared especially to accommodate these prisoners of war.
1 So everything was done to prepare these structures to be used by people,
2 not cattle.
3 Q. Each of these cattle sheds accommodated about 7- or 800 men;
5 A. Precisely.
6 Q. And the prisoners slept on the ground where the cattle used to be
7 tied; right?
8 A. If the cattle had been tied there, still it was covered by
9 concrete later. So it was no longer a shed. It was clean, clean straw
10 and blankets were provided in rows so that people could sleep normally in
12 Q. They slept on the ground; right? They slept on the floor of the
13 cattle sheds where the cattle used to be tied; right?
14 A. Yes, they used to be tied. But when you looked at it at that
15 time, nothing would tell you that it used to be a cattle shed. It was in
16 hygienic terms prepared for housing people.
17 Q. We'll talk a little bit more about the accommodations then, given
18 what you've just said. And I recall in your statement, you said things
19 like at paragraph 34, healthcare was provided, the prisoners had regular
20 meals, they had enough drinking water. So keeping that in mind and what
21 you've just said, I wonder if we could have a look at a document.
22 MS. EDGERTON: It's P3758. And if we could go over to page 5, I
23 think, in both languages.
24 Q. Paragraph 3, at the bottom of this page -- oh, pardon me, this is
25 an ICRC report on the visit -- their visit to Manjaca on 16 July 1992.
1 And their observations and experiences. Now, this report, if you go down
2 to paragraph 3 at the bottom says:
3 "The general living conditions with regard to food, hygiene,
4 clothing and accommodation ... are absolutely insufficient,"
5 Mr. Radinkovic.
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 Q. And if you go over to the next page in both languages, it says at
8 the top:
9 "Many detainees show marked weight loss and signs of anemia with
10 severity often corresponding to the length of detention."
11 And, Mr. Radinkovic, this Chamber has also heard evidence from
12 prisoners who were detained at Manjaca. They have heard evidence that
13 there was never enough food. They have heard evidence that the prisoners
14 were at periods so hungry that men ate grass. They've heard evidence
15 that the water that the prisoners were given was unclean, it came from a
16 lake where guards urinated into the lake, and even prisoners were forced
17 to do the same. There were tadpoles swimming in the water. They have
18 heard evidence that - and this document reports that - prisoners only had
19 the opportunity to take a shower twice a month. And they have heard
20 evidence that not everyone had a blanket and not everyone had straw.
21 So, Mr. Radinkovic, when you said a little while ago that
22 "nothing would tell you that the accommodations that they were in used to
23 be a cattle shed," actually the evidence that we've heard suggests that
24 not only were the prisoners accommodated in the cattle facilities, they
25 were treated like animals. And the ICRC report we've just looked at
1 corroborates the evidence that the prisoners have given. Nothing about
2 the conditions were adequate, were they, Mr. Radinkovic?
3 A. I would not agree with that since these were probably statements
4 made by individuals who, for reasons of their own, said that. I claim
5 that most prisoners of war can confirm my position; that is to say, that
6 at that point in time the best possible was provided by the military
7 command, not to say the top echelons of power, because at the time,
8 people all over Republika Srpska were hungry too. There was very little
9 food and there weren't enough resources for hygiene and whatever. But I
10 claim with full responsibility that at that point in time, a maximum was
11 provided to those people.
12 People lost a lot of weight in the camp because before the ICRC
13 arrived, another group arrived from another centre, and then there were a
14 lot of people there who had lost a lot of weight, and then it was
15 presented as if some prisoners had been starved and so on and so forth.
16 If I tell you that the food was basically identical up until the moment
17 when the Red Cross was involved -- I mean, what people ate there is what
18 the prisoners of war ate too. So no one had the need to graze grass.
19 This is just an arbitrary statement made by some individuals -- some
20 individual, that is to say, that is groundless.
21 As for the water, yes, there is a lake there, but it is a source,
22 quite literally a spring. And in hygienic vessels, water was brought
23 from there for all of us who lived there because we didn't have any other
24 water at that point in the time. That is to say that this is wrong to
25 say that somebody was swimming there or floating or whatever. Now,
1 further away from the camp, there was this other lake.
2 I claim with full responsibility that everybody got two blankets.
3 One for covering themselves and the other blanket to be put on the straw.
4 Within the camp itself, they chose their own commanders, these
5 facilities, these buildings had commanders of their own, and then they
6 could bring in as much straw as they wanted. So nobody could just lie on
7 the concrete, as that statement says. So that would be what I had to
9 As for the Red Cross, they always provided their opinion.
10 Sometimes it was positive, sometimes it was negative. There are some
11 that are very positive. So it's not that it was all that bad, all black
12 if you will. There were some positive opinions, too. Well, that would
13 be it.
14 Q. Right. Well, we'll come back to this document in a little while.
15 But I want to talk a little bit more about the prison population. In the
16 summary of your evidence, Dr. Karadzic actually confirmed that
17 included -- just to start with, included in the prison population there
18 were some minors; right? There were kids who were detained at Manjaca;
20 A. No, not children. There were say 18 or 19 -- well, they were not
21 of age. They -- we said that they were minors because they were not of
22 age yet, but the authorities that arrested them probably assessed that
23 they should be brought in. We did not receive any description as to why
24 that happened, but that was the selection made. And as you said
25 yourself, I mean, children, well, they cannot really constitute any kind
1 of danger or threat, and then they could be released or they could be
2 taken to third countries, whatever. The camp could be left. There were
3 such cases. And then there were also some people who were so old and
4 frail. Regardless of what the description was over there, you would see
5 that some man would be so old that he should be allowed to leave and so
6 on and so forth.
7 Let me say something else in passing: It's not contained in any
8 one of these documents. Our medical service -- actually, we didn't
9 really have a medical service, but at least 20 or 30 people were taken
10 from the Manjaca camp to the clinical centre in Banja Luka for medical
11 treatment if they were exhausted, frail, sick, and so on. Some were even
12 transported to Geneva and places like that from there, so the treatment
13 of these persons was very humane.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 14, line 2. [In English]
17 "Regardless of what the description of their misdeeds ..."
18 [Interpretation] "Regardless of what the description was of what they had
19 done," that is not contained in the transcript.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
21 Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. So the authorities who brought in prisoners brought in some
24 people underage. They also brought in men who were elderly, as you've
25 just said, and people who were sick; right?
1 A. Yes, now were they sick when they left? But it turned out that
2 they were sick when they were there, yes, that is correct.
3 Q. And you would have found, then, when you and your operational
4 team were processing the prisoners who were brought in, that the
5 authorities who had detained them also brought you a great number who
6 were obviously either civilians or known not to have been involved in any
7 of the actions that supposedly justified their capture. That's fair,
8 isn't it?
9 A. Well, it's not correct. We in the team did not know what guided
10 them to arrest theme people and to bring them in. Some gave some
11 information about the movement of our units, forces, et cetera,
12 regardless of how old they were, and then they would fall under that,
13 that they had participated in some way in the conflicts and so on and so
14 forth. So we were not out there on the ground to establish who was
15 brought in on account of what, but they were certainly grounds for
16 bringing them there. It's not that somebody was just picked up and
17 brought there without any kind of grounds or for no reason.
18 Q. Well, I'd like to show you a document that's prepared by part of
19 your operative team.
20 MS. EDGERTON: For that, Your Honours, we need to go into private
21 session. It's a document that was tendered under seal.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 45320-45322 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
9 Q. In fact, Mr. Radinkovic, what you found as you and your operative
10 team continued to work over the course of the summer was that prisoners
11 had been captured on a purely arbitrary basis. In fact, the only thing
12 they had in common was that they weren't Serb; right?
13 A. I never said that they were arrested arbitrarily. I just said
14 that there was the possibility that there were such persons among them.
15 I claim with full responsibility that not a single person was arrested
16 just because he or she was not a Serb. So it was not on ethnic grounds.
17 Why would they arrest him if he's loyal? Do not forget that a lot of
18 people were in the armed forces of Republika Srpska, people of other
19 religious backgrounds, Muslims and Croats, who wanted to be there and who
20 remained loyal to the people that they lived with and their environment,
21 so I cannot reconcile myself to that, that somebody was just brought in
22 because they were a Muslim or a Croat or some third thing.
23 Q. Or they were brought in if they weren't loyal. They were brought
24 in if they didn't want to accept the authority of a Serbian state.
25 A. I claim with full responsibility that nobody forced anyone to
1 accept the authority of Republika Srpska. As a matter of fact, some
2 people left, no problem whatsoever, and they had never had any problems
3 and they did not put up any resistance. People simply assessed that it
4 was better for them to leave. That was their choice. So that this was
5 some type of pressure, I would not agree with that. No way.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
7 Q. I'll go on to another area. I want to talk about pardons because
8 you talked about that in your statement. And I want to show you -- I
9 want to start by showing you one of your own documents. It's P5472. And
10 it's your report -- your report of activities at the camp to the 1 KK
11 command for the dates of 18 to 20 August 1992.
12 MS. EDGERTON: And if we can go over to page 4 in English.
13 Q. And page 2 in your language. You see there the last paragraph of
14 the document says that -- it indicates you received a task from
15 Major Stupar, which was the result of a communication from the
16 VRS Main Staff, and in accordance with that communication called a joint
17 meeting with representatives of the CSBs in the area and in your security
18 department. Do you see that paragraph? And --
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And that --
21 A. I do.
22 Q. -- at that meeting Major Stupar and Vaso Skondric presented some
23 tasks a for joint work. Who was Vaso Skondric? Can you tell us that?
24 A. Given the time aspect, I cannot remember what the function of
25 that man was. Probably somebody from the civilian structures of these
1 municipalities that have been listed.
2 Q. Right. And we'll see that shortly. And now based on this
3 communication from the Main Staff, you would have had a meeting; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Well, let's go over then to P3491. And that's an excerpt from a
6 diary of a fellow by the name of Tode Gajic, and you remember him because
7 you talked about him in your testimony in front of the state court. He
8 was an inspector at the Kljuc SJB. And these are his notes about that
9 meeting. On the 20th of August, you were among the people who sat with
10 Major Stupar, Mr. Skondric, the camp commander, Colonel Popovic, to
11 discuss the treatment and the prominence of persons who participated in
12 the armed conflict. And do you see just under point number 4 your
13 name -- where your name is, that:
14 "Introductory remarks on the Serbian Republic Presidency's
15 position were presented by Major Stupar."
16 A. I see that, both.
17 Q. Right. So there is Major Stupar's position, he's presenting the
18 position of the Presidency, which is to release people -- release
19 innocent people, people that you have no justification for detaining, who
20 were so sick that that would attract the attention of the media and
21 humanitarian organisations. So that's what Mr. Gajic's notes record;
23 A. I see that that's there. Okay.
24 Q. That's what you understood the Presidency's position to be; isn't
25 that right?
1 A. Well, we did because Major Stupar came from a corps command with
2 that kind of position, the command position that he must have received on
3 the basis of an order from the Presidency or higher organs.
4 Q. And you've got a list, and we'll go to that list in a minute, of
5 92 candidates you have to review in regard to this position. Let's --
6 let's go and look at a couple of names on that list.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to page 5 in both languages.
8 Q. So on page 5 at number 11, we see, for example, Refik Salihovic,
9 and he was arrested on the 29th of May, and he's sick with active
10 tuberculosis. Do you see that?
11 A. I see that.
12 Q. And number 13 on the list, Muharem Mehmedovic. He was born in
13 1937. He was arrested on 26 June. He has gall bladder problems,
14 diabetes, and he can't stand. Do you see that one, too?
15 A. I see that.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to page 6.
17 Q. Do you see Refik Dedic at number 20? He's got kidney disease.
18 Born in 1934.
19 A. I see that, too.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to page 12 in both languages.
21 Q. Now we're on the list of minors. Do you see number 11,
22 Denis Gromlic. There's minors born in 1974 and 1975. Denis Gromlic, who
23 was 17 at the time he was arrested, he's one of the 92 whose cases you
25 A. Yes, I see that.
1 Q. So these were examples of --
2 A. Yes, he must have been.
3 Q. These were examples of the types of illnesses and disabilities
4 you picked for release from Manjaca because of the attention they could
5 attract; right?
6 A. No, that's not the reason. The reason was that it was obvious
7 that this person was young and that the others have been medically
8 treated already, and the most logical thing was for them to go somewhere
9 outside the camp.
10 Q. So we looked at this document. The first page of this document
11 sets out the position of the Presidency, and the position of the
12 Presidency is to release innocent people who were so sick they would
13 attract attention from media and humanitarian organisations. My question
14 to you was: These are examples of the people who fit that criteria;
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Where does it say
17 "innocent people"?
18 MS. EDGERTON: It's --
19 JUDGE KWON: On the first page, I think we saw reference that no
20 evidence of executing or participating in the military activities. I
21 think that term was used in that context.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
23 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
25 Q. So back to my question, Mr. Radinkovic. These are examples of
1 the people who fit that criteria; right?
2 A. These are only some examples, but others are not stated. Others
3 for who we assessed without any medical documentation, and we reached the
4 conclusion that it would be humane to release them from the camp. That's
5 very important to say.
6 Q. Now -- thank you.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Let's look at P3721.
8 Q. It's a document dated 11 September 1992, and it's a 1 KK
9 communication forwarding the contents of a telegram from the Presidency,
10 which grants amnesty to 69 prisoners from Manjaca and Trnopolje.
11 Now, Mr. Radinkovic, can you have a look at this list. Number 6
12 is the minor Denis Gromlic, number 17 is Refik Salihovic, and number 29
13 is Refik Dedic. Those are the three names that I identified to you that
14 you discussed at your meeting on the 20th of August; right?
15 A. Yes, exactly. And that corroborates what I said, that we
16 released people of whom we thought that they should or actually needed to
17 leave the camp.
18 Q. So your list that you arrived at as a result of that meeting went
19 up the chain of command as far as the Presidency and all the way back
20 down again, so the decision on pardon could eventually be implemented;
22 A. Exactly.
23 Q. Now, this pardon of 69 people out of a prison population at
24 Manjaca alone of -- we've talked of a number of prisoners between 2.000
25 and 4.500, that's actually really just a token gesture, isn't it? It's a
1 way of avoiding some undesirable publicity from the international
2 community and to garner some credit with them, especially in light of the
3 story about the camps that had broken earlier on in August.
4 A. I wouldn't agree with you because even before that, we had
5 released people under the same criteria, not only pursuant to this list.
6 There were also people released who are not on this list. This is dated
7 the 11th of September, 1992, and people were released much earlier. Some
8 of the released were even religious ministers or hodzas, for example.
9 Q. So in addition to the sick, the elderly, civilians, people who
10 weren't participant in combat activities, you also had religious figures
11 in Manjaca camp?
12 A. There were a couple and they were among the first to be released.
13 Q. Well, it's interesting that you didn't agree with my
14 characterisation of this as a token gesture to garner some international
15 credit, because that's exactly what Dr. Karadzic told his people that it
17 MS. EDGERTON: We can go to D456.
18 Q. And it's a transcript -- it's so you can read it, but I'll read
19 it to you, it's a copy of the transcript of the 20th Assembly Session of
20 Republika Srpska, dated 15 September 1992.
21 MS. EDGERTON: And we can go to English page 55. And the passage
22 I'm going to refer to is about nine lines down from the top, and B/C/S
23 page 58. And on page 58, it's about 16 lines up from the bottom.
24 Q. Dr. Karadzic talked about prisoners of war. And he said:
25 "About three weeks before they started talking about camps, we
1 submitted a 16-page pamphlet to the British parliament, to all important
2 foreign correspondents about concentration camps for Serbs, but no one
3 paid any attention."
4 Dr. Karadzic said:
5 "Disbanding Trnopolje does not mean letting up. If they want to
6 take them abroad, let them. They want to take 69 sick people tomorrow,
7 let them," 69, exactly the same number of people on the pardon that I
8 just showed you, "Let them. That will give us great credit among the
9 international public. We want to co-operate, we want to deal with
10 humanitarian issues, and that helps us. Don't worry about that. We
11 don't need Manjaca. If only all the Green Berets had been killed with a
12 rifle in their hand, but once they have been captured, then we must abide
13 by the Geneva Conventions and it's all for nothing. It would suit us if
14 it were shut down, disbanded, shut down and sent somewhere, but not for
15 them to return to the battle-field."
16 So, Mr. Radinkovic, whatever humanitarian considerations you in
17 your operative team might have had in mind, for Dr. Karadzic, these 69
18 people were just a token, weren't they?
19 A. Well, that's the opinion of Mr. Karadzic. I respect that. The
20 president said that and that seems to be his position.
21 Q. And meanwhile, the great number of civilians and people who your
22 processing showed had been detained without justification remained at
23 Manjaca as human collateral; right?
24 A. By no means. They are not a collateral damage. It was their
25 salvation. I state that with full responsibility. If they had gone
1 anywhere from there, individually or in small groups, it is very doubtful
2 how they would have ended up. And there they were guarded, they were
3 visited by the International Red Cross, and they had a certain status.
4 It's a great question if many of them had been alive today, if they had
5 left and went elsewhere on their own. I still maintain that.
6 Q. You gave evidence, to switch topics, in your statement that
7 prisoners at Manjaca were beaten. That was at paragraph 12 on page 4 and
8 at paragraph 28. That's right, isn't it? Prisoners at Manjaca were
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. And you saw that on arriving at Manjaca, prisoners bore the marks
12 of having been beaten.
13 A. Yes, it was established and verified and even the International
14 Red Cross confirmed it.
15 Q. And on their arrival at Manjaca, prisoners were also beaten.
16 Policemen would make a gauntlet for prisoners entering the camp to pass
17 through and those prisoners were beaten by the policemen?
18 A. There was some partial cases, but only at the beginning. Only
19 until such a regime and such criteria were introduced that whoever tried
20 to do anything without being ordered was removed from his position and
21 replaced by somebody else who was able to do their job properly. That
22 was exclusively their idea. It was their initiative, the initiative of
23 some individuals. They guided themselves with other considerations. It
24 was their neighbours who knew who had had weapons and so on and so forth.
25 But we removed those who behaved in violation of the regulations, but we
1 removed them and finally there were no such cases left.
2 Q. And you said when you testified before the state court in 2011,
3 that the situation I described to you was actually a common practice. It
4 happened, unfortunately, in your words, often.
5 A. I pointed out that it may have be common practice but at the
6 beginning, while the people were frustrated, the very police officers
7 providing security. You must bear in mind that some of their relatives
8 may have been killed or massacred, and then they would avenge themselves.
9 But we didn't know who these people were, because it wasn't written all
10 over them. We first -- when we identified them, we looked at people who
11 were able to carry out their duties properly, but it was certainly not
12 anything permanent.
13 Q. And you also had confidential sources in the camp, because you're
14 a security operative. You had confidential sources who told you that
15 prisoners were being physically abused; right?
16 A. Yes, that is right. Through our sources we came up with the
17 names of the perpetrators of these crimes, because we considered them
18 crimes too, right there. And we singled them out, we suspended them, and
19 replaced them. And you know what they got as a reward when they left
20 Manjaca? They had to go to the front line to fight.
21 Q. And you yourself saw when prisoners were brought in for
22 interviews, that they showed signs of having been physically beaten. You
23 saw it too.
24 A. Yes, I saw it. Often they would say that they had fallen down
25 upon arriving, and that's why they were bloody. But we were
1 professionals and were able to conclude that the one who had brought them
2 couldn't do so anymore, and he didn't. He was replaced by somebody else
3 who was able to do the job in a more professional manner and with less
5 Q. So when you said in your written evidence that people who were
6 responsible for perpetrating these beatings were dismissed, you mean they
7 were simply transferred away to other duties? On the front line, for
9 A. That wasn't a transfer. It was like a punishment. But the ones
10 who were suspended, who had committed criminal acts, they were even taken
11 by their police to military prison. And they weren't allowed to touch
12 weapons again and couldn't contact other soldiers, those who had been --
13 who were known to have committed the offences that I described in my
15 Q. Let's talk about sort of disciplinary measures then for a minute.
16 But let's leave these stories of these beatings aside for the time being.
17 Mr. Radinkovic, you know, the -- the death by suffocation of the
18 prisoners in the trucks who were coming from Sanski Most to Manjaca is
19 one of the charges that Dr. Karadzic is faced with. All right? And the
20 killing of a number of men in front of Manjaca camp on their arrival to
21 the camp from Omarska is another one of the charges he stand indicted
22 with, and you talked about both of these in your statement. Those
23 happened, right? You confirm that these people, 24 men from Sanski Most
24 and a number of men from Omarska were killed in the transportation to
25 Manjaca camp?
1 A. As for Sanski Most, it was possible to establish that during the
2 transport they suffocated. Nobody killed them. They simply suffocated
3 because they were brought there in trucks with closed tarpaulins, and
4 there were very many of them on one truck, and they simply suffocated
5 because there wasn't enough air. These weren't killings that anyone
6 committed. These were simply the circumstances. Somebody wasn't
7 considerate enough to provide for enough air so that these people could
8 arrive alive.
9 As for transfers from Omarska, unfortunately this happened
10 immediately in front of the camp gate, and it is obvious that these acts
11 were committed by the police officers from the escort who had brought the
12 prisoners there.
13 Q. Now, these people who were killed, you knew about it on both
14 occasions because you were on duty. You reported those killings up your
15 chain of command, so your immediate superior, your camp commander, you
16 all knew about it? In fact, you knew about these killings go on while
17 they happened; right?
18 A. No, not at the same moment. Because the office where I was, is
19 at some distance. But the commander of security was informing me of what
20 was going on in front of the camp as far as Prijedor is concerned. And
21 as for Sanski Most, I was informed because during the unloading of the
22 healthy people, it was established that among them there were some dead
23 people. Military police officers were there, and in such cases we
24 insisted that the dead bodies would be taken back. We didn't want any
25 dead bodies in front of our camp.
1 And as for Prijedor, when I was informed that the killing of some
2 individuals had begun, I even requested the help of the military police
3 to prevent a possible -- I wanted to prevent that it grows out of
4 proportion because the process had begun and I wanted to put an end to
6 Q. And with respect to these two incidents that we are talking
7 about, it's correct, isn't it, that the camp commander, Colonel Popovic,
8 and the corps command, General Talic, neither man took any measures
9 against the people who were under his -- their command who stood by and
10 who watched while these things were going on, who failed to intervene?
11 That no specific measures were taken either by your camp commander or by
12 your corps commander?
13 A. I must inform you that the camp was a military camp. That is,
14 the military provided security. And the civilian structures brought the
15 people. The civilian police, that is. Neither the camp commander nor
16 General Talic had any direct influence. We equated them along the lines
17 of command, but in neither -- or, rather, in both cases it was the
18 civilian police that brought the people. Not the military. None of them
19 was in a position to issue orders. We could only report up to the corps
20 command and request that police station so-and-so be informed or the
21 chief of police, whoever, so that the people be returned, the people who
22 were brought dead.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript. [In English]
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 30, from line 19 on, it was
2 not recorded that the witness said, "I wanted to prevent what was
3 happening because people had lost control." "The perpetrators had lost
4 control," it was not recorded.
5 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue? Yes, thank you.
6 MS. EDGERTON:
7 Q. With respect --
8 A. If I may, I would like to add something to what the president has
9 said. For that purpose, I personally made a phone call and requested
10 urgent reinforcements because it was obvious that those people had the
11 intention of committing perhaps even worse crimes. When a police platoon
12 arrived with an armoured vehicle, things had already stopped, and then
13 the process continued in line with the procedure, the way it should have
15 Q. So what you're saying now is you did something, you tried to do
16 something. I was asking you about Colonel Popovic and General Talic.
17 These incidents happened at the gate of the Manjaca farm. Manjaca was
18 heavily guarded inside and outside by civilian and military police.
19 There was a camp command structure inside. There was a guard house
20 outside Manjaca from an elevated position where everything could be
21 observed. There were armed guards all around the perimeter. Nobody
22 intervened. Right? Apart from what you're telling us now, you did --
23 the staff at Manjaca camp stood by and let it happen?
24 A. Look here, the personnel of Manjaca camp had responsibility for
25 security of the prisoners inside the camp but not outside it, and the
1 guards were inside the camp, not outside. None of the police officers
2 was allowed to go out, no matter what was happening. And once the police
3 platoon had arrived with an armoured vehicle, it was clear that
4 additional forces had been sent to prevent what could be prevented. If
5 General Talic assigned it or any one of the commanders, it doesn't
6 matter, but the reaction was as fast as possible because at that moment
7 everything stopped and things began unfolding in accordance with the
8 procedure that was applied in the camp in line with the regulations.
9 Q. So you're saying that because of the regulations, camp staff had
10 no -- were not entitled, were not able, were not permitted to intervene
11 to prevent a crime unfolding in front of their eyes? That's what you're
13 A. Precisely. According to the orders, the security around the camp
14 is provided by civilian police, and the military police has no right to
15 intervene anywhere outside. The regulations were very strict: Outside
16 security is provided by civilian police.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Perhaps you'll assist in this. In the civil law
18 generally that was applicable at the time, did a citizen not have a duty
19 to intervene to prevent a criminal offence, whoever was committing it?
20 That's a common provision in many jurisdictions.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was this question addressed to me?
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. Indeed it was.
24 A. Let me tell you: In civil law, yes, but military law is
25 something different. So that this soldier who was standing at the gate
1 and who was watching it happen, perhaps 20 or 30 metres away, he had his
2 military duty to guard perhaps 2.000 people at that moment, whereas those
3 who were outside were still not considered to be prisoners of war until
4 they reached the gates of the camp. So there is a distinction. Perhaps
5 that man wanted to intervene but he couldn't because his post, his
6 work-place was to stand guard there, not outside.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: And what about the military duty to protect
8 civilians under the Geneva Conventions?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what we did all the time in
10 the camp, and the results are obvious, if we set aside these individual
11 incidents. We did our utmost to achieve the maximum protection for
12 civilians according to Geneva Conventions. Perhaps we did not succeed
13 100 per cent.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, I'm confused. How does that square with
15 what you said a moment ago about if a man wanted to intervene but
16 couldn't because of his post? Are you suggesting that his post had
17 primacy over the Geneva Conventions?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, the soldier who was part
19 of the security detail inside the perimeter had the exclusive task to
20 guard the people - that is to say, prisoners of war - who are inside the
21 perimeter, not outside the perimeter. That is a clarification I want to
23 JUDGE MORRISON: I'll leave it there, but it doesn't resolve my
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
1 MS. EDGERTON: I just see it's 10.34, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Is it time for morning break?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll have a break for 40 minutes. We'll
5 resume at 10 past 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, Your Honour, that will conclude my
12 cross-examination. Nothing further.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The briefest possible, just one or
16 two questions.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radinkovic, picking up on the question put
19 by Judge Morrison, can you tell us how many times killings happen in the
20 vicinity of the camp, in the vicinity of that guard?
21 A. Mr. President, that happened only once when POWs from Prijedor
22 were brought. It happened that once and never again.
23 Q. Thank you. What was the balance of power between the military
24 police guarding the camp and those outside?
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
1 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: I'm not sure if that's an appropriate question
3 arising from the cross-examination.
4 JUDGE KWON: As far as duty to protect is concerned, I think
5 there is --
6 MS. EDGERTON: In the -- absolutely.
7 JUDGE KWON: A jurisdictional matter may be raised.
8 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic -- or can you answer the question?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask, was he able to
10 intervene without the decision or order from his own superior.
11 JUDGE KWON: No, that's --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's one question. And the other
13 question is about the balance of power.
14 JUDGE KWON: That's a leading question.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Under what circumstances would a guard from the military police
17 be able to intervene against the civilian police when that happened?
18 A. Only when the civilian police or any other unit attacked the
19 camp, physically, militarily.
20 Q. One general question, Mr. Radinkovic. What do you know talk
21 about conduct of the first superiors vis-à-vis identified perpetrators in
22 your camp. Did they let it pass or did they react and how?
23 A. The commanders of security, as they were known, did not allow
24 physical violence against the prisoners, but of course they could not
25 follow every policeman 24/7 or prevent any activity. So our security
1 commanders often intervened without any orders from us.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radinkovic, for coming here and giving evidence.
3 A. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: That concludes your evidence, Mr. Radinkovic. On
5 behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give
6 it. Now you are free to go.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. Thank you very
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Good morning, Mr. President. I was wondering if I
13 could raise one matter in private session very briefly.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, shall we go into private session.
15 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll bring in the next witness. I take
24 it this will be the last witness for the year.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
1 THE ACCUSED: And I suppose that the Defence will be ready to
2 work until 4.00 as yesterday if it is for the sake of completing.
3 JUDGE KWON: Let's see how it goes. The parties prefer to do
4 without tomorrow's hearing. That's the position. We'll see how it goes.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: SIMO MISKOVIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Miskovic. Please be seated and make
12 yourself comfortable.
13 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
14 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Miskovic.
16 A. Good morning, Mr. President. I would like to take this
17 opportunity to greet the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution as well, not
18 only Mr. President.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you please just leave a pause between questions
20 and answers so that everything is recorded on the LiveNote, because we
21 speak the same language.
22 Have you given a statement to my Defence team?
23 A. Yes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D49034 is the document I would
25 like shown to the witness.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Could you please look at the monitor. Please leave that pause
3 that I mentioned.
4 A. I can't see very well. Could this be made larger?
5 Q. Is this the first page of your statement?
6 A. I can't see much --
7 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it is. Yes, I'm
9 comparing them now. Yes.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Have you read and signed this statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Just don't start answering immediately. Leave one
14 seconds' pause.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you we now show the witness
16 the last page for him to identify his signature.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Is this your signature?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Does this statement reflect faithfully what you've
21 said to the Defence team? Are there any inaccuracies that you would like
22 to correct?
23 A. There is one little thing, in fact, just a few errors that I
24 would like to point out.
25 Q. Which paragraph?
1 A. Give me a moment, please. Paragraph 10, last line, right after
2 "municipal boards," it should say "and deputies."
3 Q. I found it. "As far as I remember, the official suggestion of
4 the leadership of the party was" --
5 A. For the presidents of the Municipal Boards of the party as well
6 the deputies should not be chairman or president of the Crisis Staff.
7 Q. Are there anymore?
8 A. Yes. Paragraph 12. It says that my municipality Prijedor was
9 free and independent in its work from the republic organs at Pale. This
10 a mistake, I think. The way it is phrased, you could understand that we
11 are some renegade municipality working on its own. What I actually said
12 or meant was that, in a certain period, we were unable to contact and
13 communicate the leadership of the party, because there were no land-lines
14 in one period and in another period telephone communications were down,
15 too. So if it's understood to mean that, then it's fine.
16 Q. "I can also confirm that my municipality Prijedor ..."
17 A. In the periods when there were no communications across land with
18 the leadership of the party, it was physically impossible to reach them,
19 and in the periods when telecommunications were down, we had to make our
20 own decisions as far as the party is concerned.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. That's it. And there are some typos.
23 Q. Taking into account these corrections you've just made, does this
24 statement contain all that you have said to the Defence?
25 A. Yes, it does, with these corrections.
1 Q. If I were to put to you the same questions today, would your
2 answers be essentially the same as in the statement?
3 A. My answers would be the same today as they were on the earlier
4 occasions when I gave evidence because the truth is only one.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under
6 Rule 92 ter.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 Mr. Robinson, could you assist us with regard to the associated
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We are asking that four
11 documents be admitted as associated exhibits. All of them have been on
12 our 65 ter list.
13 JUDGE KWON: Some of them were already admitted?
14 MR. ROBINSON: I checked this morning and none of them have been
16 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Good morning, Your Honours. No, no objections.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit them all. Shall we assign numbers for
20 THE REGISTRAR: The statement receives Exhibit Number D4206. The
21 65 ter number 1D26372 receives Exhibit Number D4207. The 65 ter number
22 13972 receives Exhibit Number D4208. The 65 ter number 1D25930 receives
23 Exhibit Number D4209, and the 65 ter number 1D25938 receives
24 Exhibit Number D4210, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now read in
3 English a short summary of Mr. Simo Miskovic's statement.
4 [In English] Simo Miskovic was the president of the SDS in
5 Prijedor from 1991. Before he became the president of the SDS, he was in
6 command of the reserve police station Prijedor 2.
7 The SDS was a democratic party and decisions were taken at the
8 Main Board sessions when the agenda was discussed and decisions were
9 adopted and rejected by majority vote. There were conflicts between
10 party policy and some representatives of the government at the municipal
11 level, which is why these representatives were dismissed from their
12 position and others were appointed to take their places. The basic
13 policy adopted by the Municipal Board in Prijedor was presented by
14 Mr. Miskovic on October the 5th, 1992. In his programme, Mr. Miskovic
15 distanced himself and the party from all negative conduct in Prijedor
16 municipality and requested that all responsible organs, each in its
17 domain, take measures to prevent illegal actions in any segment and bring
18 to the trial persons who committed them. When the SDS representatives in
19 Prijedor became disobedient, Mr. Miskovic agreed with Dr. Karadzic to
20 dismiss them, but part of the party leadership and the authorities
21 refused to align with this decision. For this reason, Mr. Miskovic
22 resigned and withdrew from the leadership of the party on
23 16th of August, 1993.
24 Simo Miskovic was not aware of any plans to permanently remove
25 Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats from areas of BH to which the Bosnian
1 Serbs laid claim, through genocide, persecution, extermination, murder,
2 deportation, and inhumane acts. He never heard such things in the
3 Prijedor Municipal Board or at the sessions of the Main Board at the
4 republican level. In Prijedor municipality, Mr. Miskovic contacted a
5 large number of non-Serbs in order to find a peaceful resolution of the
6 tensions in the area, and he proposed to the president of the SDA,
7 Mirza Mujadzic, to visit together those places where Serbs and Muslims
8 were concentrated, in order to reduce the tensions. For unknown reasons,
9 Mr. Mujadzic refused.
10 Mr. Miskovic was present at the meeting held at the Holiday Inn
11 hotel on 14th of February, 1992. During this meeting, the instruction on
12 organisation and work of the organs of the Serbian people in BiH in
13 extraordinary circumstances were handed to participants. I suppose -- I
14 apologise, I suppose it must be some mistake. It didn't happen
15 14th February, but we'll clarify it.
16 The reason for this was in case of any danger to the survival of
17 the Serbian people for the SDS representatives to take measures to
18 prevent such attempts at a new slaughter.
19 The local authorities in Prijedor municipality were free and
20 independent of the republican organs in Pale, and it was clarified in
21 what terms. The telephone lines had mostly been disrupted, and so for
22 most part it was not possible the make contacts by telephone, and for
23 that very reason, instructions from Pale could not be received. The
24 crisis in Prijedor municipality was a consequence of the inability to
25 reach an agreement between the representatives of the SDS, SDA, and HDZ
1 political parties. A first meeting was held between the representatives
2 of the three parties at which they agreed on the division of power in
3 50 per cent of the cases and scheduled another meeting for the next day
4 to divide other 50 per cent of power. The next day, the SDA
5 representatives did not show up, and after that, they no longer invested
6 any effort into solving this problem.
7 In Prijedor, there were no incidents on ethnic ground, because
8 all three sides respected the agreement and acted accordingly, putting up
9 check-points in settlement of ethnic concentrations. In this context,
10 the three peoples kept in regular contact, talked, and maintained this
12 The first incident that took place was a murder of the reserve
13 police officer Radenko Dzapa on 1st of May, 1992, then the killing and
14 wounding of soldiers who were returning from the battle-field on
15 Hambarine hill by Muslim paramilitary formation on 22nd of May, 1992, and
16 the barricading of the Prijedor-Banja Luka main road by Muslim
18 The inability to divide power created tensions among the three
19 peoples because government could not function. In order to prevent
20 incontrollable conflicts, the Serbs took over power in Prijedor on
21 30th of April, 1992. The culmination of the confrontations came after
22 the attack on the town of Prijedor by Muslims and Croatian formations on
23 30th of May, 1992. The attack resulted in a large number of casualties
24 among members of the Serbian people.
25 And that is summary, and I have just to clarify one thing.
1 [Interpretation] Excellencies, I believe that the date is wrong
2 in the summary, but in the statement in paragraph 10 the date of that
3 session at the Holiday Inn is correct, the 19th of December. So I don't
4 have to ask the witness anything about that --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been a long time, hasn't it?
6 JUDGE KWON: It's duly noted. And you have no question, no
7 further questions, Mr. Karadzic?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no. I'm saving time for the
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
11 Mr. Miskovic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this
12 case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written
13 statement. Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the
14 Office of the Prosecutor.
15 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:
18 Q. And good morning, Mr. Miskovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could have P2571, please.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, in your statement you've made comments about
22 the way the SDS party functioned and the nature of Dr. Karadzic's
23 leadership; in particular, at paragraph 4 you state that the SDS was a
24 democratic party. And in various places, you speak about democratic
25 decision-making in the party. And I'd just like to address some of those
1 comments you make with a concrete example.
2 Now on the screen in front of you is a transcript of an
3 intercepted conversation on the 10th of September, 1991, involving
4 Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Neskovic, yourself, and Mr. Srdic. You've seen this
5 intercept several times before, so I'm just going to go to a few extracts
6 and ask you to confirm some of the things you've said before about it.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could first go to page 3 of the English and
8 page 2 in the B/C/S.
9 Q. And extract that I'd like you to look at starts at about halfway
10 down the page in the B/C/S and it's near the top in the English. It's
11 where Mr. Neskovic says:
12 "Because they do not recognise any authority here, especially if
13 you mention Sarajevo."
14 And Dr. Karadzic says:
15 "Let them fuck their mothers, let them make their own party, let
16 them resign. Whoever refuses to obey Sarajevo should resign. Write
17 papers for them tomorrow and say: This is a party which has its top and
18 its bottom, and nobody will fuck about under our name."
19 And when Dr. Karadzic speaks again, he says:
20 "And please tell them this, please, whoever won't adhere to the
21 policies of the party and implement the policies of the party, but
22 adheres to their own private policies ..."
23 And Neskovic says:
25 And Dr. Karadzic says:
1 "... let them sign here, let them leave their place in the
2 municipality, and we will put new people there. They can set up their
3 own party but not under this name."
4 Now basically what Dr. Karadzic is saying here is that party
5 members must follow party policies or leave the party; right?
6 A. This conversation took place before I came to head the party.
7 This is the moment when I agreed after the fourth attempt that was made
8 by certain representatives of the municipal organisation of the Serb
9 democratic party to persuade me to accept to be at the helm of the party,
10 because from the moment --
11 Q. Mr. Miskovic, I'm sorry --
12 A. -- when it was founded in the territory of the municipality of
13 Prijedor --
14 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I asked a very specific question.
15 A. No problem.
16 Q. We will go to other passages of this intercept. If I could ask
17 you --
18 A. Please go ahead.
19 Q. If I could ask you to please just answer the specific question
20 that I just ask, which is: In the passage that I just read out to,
21 Dr. Karadzic is stating that party members must follow party policies or
22 leave the party; right?
23 A. On the basis of what was read out to me, it seems that it is what
24 was said to Neskovic. It was Neskovic who was told all of that. Not me.
25 This is a conversation between Neskovic, who was a representative of the
1 Main Board, who came to take care of the situation in the party before I
2 came in. This is a conversation -- well, Srdjo Srdic, a member of
3 parliament of the Serb Democratic Party, it's his department, and he was
4 supposed to be replaced, and I was supposed to come to the helm. So this
5 is a conversation between Neskovic and them. I was on the sidelines, if
6 you will, and it was only towards the end that I communicated with
7 Mr. Karadzic. So the conversation is between Neskovic, the member of the
8 Main Board who was entrusted by the Main Board with this task of coming
9 to the Prijedor to clarify the situation and to elect a new leadership of
10 the party. So it's not between me And President Karadzic as far as I can
11 understand this.
12 Q. Well, let me remind you what you said before about this passage
13 when you testified at this Tribunal.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could have 65 ter 25674.
15 Q. In the Stanisic -- and page 25 of that exhibit. In the Stanisic
16 and Zupljanin case, Mr. Miskovic, you were asked:
17 "And Karadzic then continues and says:
18 "'Whoever refuses to obey Sarajevo should resign. Write papers
19 for them tomorrow and say this is a party which has its top and bottom
20 and nobody will fuck about -- fuck under our name -- fuck about under our
22 And you say:
24 And you were asked:
25 "What do you think he meant by that?"
1 And you answer:
2 "I really don't know. You would have to ask him. As a layman, I
3 would say that he is talking about the party policies and that everybody
4 has to subscribe to those. Either you fall in or you leave, and that's
5 the case all over the world. You can't be against the party and be a
6 member of it."
7 Now that's what you said about the passage of this intercept when
8 you testified in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case; right?
9 A. As for what you read out just now, I fully stand by that. That
10 is my statement and I confirm that just now. I just reacted to something
11 else a moment ago. This conversation that you proffered, it's a
12 conversation between Neskovic and President Karadzic, and what you are
13 referring to now it's a conversation between myself and
14 President Karadzic and that happened afterwards. And there is no denying
15 that. And I believe that in all political parties in the world there is
16 hierarchy, and the policy of the party has to be implemented. And if one
17 doesn't want to implement that policy, then they have to join a different
18 party. So there has to be order, there has to be hierarchy, and it has
19 to be established that way. And primarily, the decisions of the
20 Main Board, depending on how the party is organised. I mean, these
21 bodies of political organisation. That is the basic thing. Who doesn't
22 accept that? Well, then, you see often you have people who switch
23 parties, who go from one party on another. They change their opinions
24 and then they --
25 Q. Mr. Miskovic --
1 A. -- join another party --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
3 be asked to speak slower.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON:
5 Q. First of all, you've been asked to speak more slowly. Secondly,
6 I am asking very specific questions and your answers are straying away
7 from them and my time is very limited.
8 Mr. Miskovic, the testimony I just read out to you was your
9 comment on the very same conversation between Mr. Neskovic and
10 Mr. Karadzic that you looked at. Do you accept that?
11 A. Well, of course that's the way it was. No denying that.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go back to P2571 to page 4 of the
14 English and page 3 of the B/C/S.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now why do I not see this in
16 Serbian? I don't. I don't see it.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON:
18 Q. If you could just wait for a moment, Mr. Miskovic, the transcript
19 will appear. And this is towards the bottom of the page in the English
20 and also in the B/C/S, and this is part of the --
21 A. I see it now, yes.
22 Q. -- towards the bottom of the page where you and Dr. Karadzic are
23 speaking. And Dr. Karadzic says to you:
24 "Good evening. Please tell me, was it the municipal assemblymen
25 club that called the Assembly meeting tomorrow?"
1 And you say:
3 And Dr. Karadzic says:
4 "They don't have that prerogative, the motherfuckers."
5 And you say:
6 "Yes, probably the Main Board. They know -- I am not a member of
7 the Main Board. The Main Board probably gave them carte blanche."
8 And Karadzic says:
9 "They cannot give them carte blanche. They are implementing the
10 policies of the party, not the other way around."
11 Now, when you testified previously about this passage, you
12 explained that --
13 THE ACCUSED: I am not sure we have right Serbian page.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: It should be page 3.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand any of this.
16 THE ACCUSED: As a matter fact, this is not the same. This is
17 not proper document at all.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, it's correct in the English. It should be
19 page 3 in the B/C/S.
20 MR. ROBINSON: If you look at the B/C/S, the speakers are
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yeah. I think that the document is incorrect in
23 the B/C/S. I'm not -- oh, and -- yeah, I don't know what that is.
24 JUDGE KWON: But in my e-court, I see Neskovic and Karadzic.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, mine as well.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is towards the bottom of the page, you
2 and Dr. Karadzic speaking, where you say to Dr. Karadzic:
3 "The Main Board probably gave them carte blanche."
4 And he says:
5 "They cannot give them carte blanche. They are implementing the
6 policies of the party, not the other way around."
7 And when you testified previously about this passage, you
8 explained that Dr. Karadzic was stating here that:
9 "The SDS members and the Municipal Assembly are there to further
10 party policies, and if they want to pursue other policies they have to
11 change their party membership."
12 That's a correct understanding of your view of this passage;
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 12 of the English and
16 page 9 of the B/C/S.
17 This is where Dr. Karadzic speaks with Mr. Srdic who was then the
18 municipal party president. This is near the very top in the B/C/S and a
19 about a third of the way down in the English.
20 Q. And Dr. Karadzic says to Mr. Srdic:
21 "Srdja, please, what you just said is very bad. You are saying
22 that you are going around and that you are a deserving man. We all know
23 how deserving you are, but it's not working that way any longer, Srdja.
24 You see, it's not working. The party is stuck. It's not working. You
25 have to yield and let someone finish it."
1 Now, what Dr. Karadzic is telling Mr. Srdic here is that he has
2 to yield his position as municipal SDS president and let someone else
3 take over. And you indeed became SDS president the next day and
4 Mr. Srdic did not resist that change; correct?
5 A. Well, yes, that's correct. I said at the very outset. All of
6 this is happening in Mr. Srdic's apartment. He was the president of the
7 party and also a member of a parliament too. He was an elderly man and
8 younger people were against him. There was confrontation --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
10 second sentence.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then this person had some authority
12 in Prijedor. So then they came to pick me up --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Speed, speed.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Miskovic, you are speaking too fast. So could
15 you repeat from where you said there was confrontation?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before I came to the helm of the
17 party, in the party there were quite a few problems. The first president
18 was Milakovic, Milorad, who behaved almost like a quack. So Srdja Srdic
19 took over the party. He was a member of the party at the time on behalf
20 of the Serb Democratic Party.
21 Now this transcript, the conversation that has taken place there,
22 it is in Srdja Srdic's apartment. I am present as the candidate for the
23 future president, then member of the Main Board, Radomir Neskovic, and
24 Srdja Srdic. His wife was there too, but she did not take part of this
25 conversation, I mean. From the transcript, one can see that there is
1 communication between the president of the party, Mr. Karadzic, and
2 Srdja Srdic, as president of the municipal organisation of the Serb
3 Democratic Party, and Neskovic, as a representative of the Main Board. I
4 mean, one can see that it is geared towards the following: That there
5 are problems in the party and that they have to be overcome through a new
6 leadership. That is why Mr. Neskovic came in the first place.
7 However, Srdja Srdic was hurt. He was saying: Well, I am not a
8 ruin to be destroyed all together. However, after these conversations
9 that were conducted with President Karadzic - and that is what is
10 contained in this transcript - he finally understood that nobody was
11 trying to destroy him or topple him. Rather, that in order to
12 consolidate the party, it was necessary for a new man to be brought in
13 who would have better communication with the membership of the party,
14 since the majority were young people. And at that time, I was relatively
15 young too. I was about 46 or 47.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON:
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Miskovic. I think your position is clear.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 6 of the English and
19 page 4 --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, I do apologise. May I? May
21 I just ask you to remind me to speak more slowly, because it is my nature
22 to speak very fast and I tend to forget that.
23 MS. GUSTAFSON:
24 Q. Now on this page, Mr. Miskovic, right at the bottom of the page
25 in the B/C/S and towards the top in the English, again, this is you and
1 Dr. Karadzic speaking. And Dr. Karadzic is saying that:
2 "The assemblymen should be fair towards the party which brought
3 them to power. You do this and don't -- there will be no conflicts, do
4 it as a good housekeeper. There is no reason?"
5 And then you state:
6 "I wouldn't. You can ... I wouldn't do it because of you and the
7 party, and since you are heading the party, because I know that it's a
8 mess here, you have to figure everything out, and you have not only
9 Prijedor, but the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, and loads of information
10 every day, every month, from the elections to other things."
11 Now you have stated previously that what you're saying here to
12 Dr. Karadzic is that when you took over as party president, you would
13 follow the policies of the SDS Main Board; that's correct, isn't it?
14 A. That is correct. I wouldn't have accepted to lead the party if I
15 were to pursue the policy of some other party.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to 65 ter 25675, page 22 in
17 the English and page 32 -- sorry, 21 of the English and page 31 in the
19 Q. And the document that will be coming up, just to orient you,
20 Mr. Miskovic, is transcript of your interview with the OTP in 2009. And
21 this is right around the middle of the page in the B/C/S and towards the
22 bottom of the page in the English, and you're discussing with the OTP
23 this same intercept we've been looking at. And in fact, this same
24 passage. And you're asked:
25 "I've got one question, Mr. Miskovic. You say 'since you are
1 heading the party,' was that your view that as head of the SDS he had the
2 right to give instructions about what should happen?"
3 And you say:
4 "He was -- the Main Board of the SDS made decisions and he was
5 the one representing the Main Board who was making the politics and the
6 party on all levels was to conduct the policies, otherwise it would have
7 been chaos. There was an Assembly and there was a Main Board. Later on,
8 there was an Executive Board. I think Neskovic was on this
9 Executive Board from 1993 or far away from it. I can't recall the little
10 details right now."
11 And on the next page of the English you're asked:
12 "I understand that it's a long time ago, but just so I understand
13 that answer, the Main Board made the policies. He was the representative
14 of the Main Board as leader of the SDS."
15 And if we turn the page in the B/C/S, you answer:
16 "Yes, he was the first. Like in every party, the main body makes
17 decisions. They confront their opinions in the main body, and he's
18 controlling of the implementing of the decision."
19 Now that accurately -- that passage I read out accurately
20 summarised your understanding of Dr. Karadzic's authority within the SDS
21 party; correct?
22 A. Well, there is nothing there that is to be challenged. Any party
23 has its bodies, and the president of the party only pursues the policy
24 that is agreed upon by these bodies of the party, and he is responsible
25 for the implementation of that policy. As far as I know, that is the
1 characteristic of all political parties all over the world.
2 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about the Variant A and B
3 instructions. At paragraph 10, your statement indicates that you were
4 asked whether you had information about the meeting at the Holiday Inn in
5 Sarajevo on 19 December 1991, at which the Variant A and B instructions
6 were distributed. And you confirmed in your statement that you attended
7 this meeting.
8 The Chamber has received evidence that, in fact, this meeting
9 took place on the 20th of December, 1991. An example would be P5792. Do
10 you agree, Mr. Miskovic, that this meeting where the Variant A and B
11 instructions were distributed could well have taken place on the
12 20th of December, 1991?
13 A. I said even before, and I must repeat it now, that I do not
14 remember the date. I do remember, though, a nice scene. When we
15 finished, in the lobby of the Holiday Inn, I met Mirza Mujadzic, the
16 president of the SDA party at Prijedor, and he was boasting to me of
17 getting a new Golf car.
18 Q. Mr. Miskovic, I'm very sorry to interrupt you, but my time is it
19 very limited and I'm just asking --
20 A. No problem.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, again I'd like to confirm some things you said
22 before about these instructions. Now, that meeting you attended in
23 December 1991 where these instructions where distributed, that meeting
24 was presided over by Dr. Karadzic and was attended by all municipal party
25 presidents and National Assembly deputies; right?
1 A. I think so. I know that I attended, and my digression was only
2 to -- meant to show how relaxed the atmosphere was still between us,
3 that's why I provided that example. But okay.
4 Q. What you said in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, and this is at
5 page 39 in e-court of your -- of the transcript, was:
6 "All party presidents were present at the meeting, as well as
7 deputies in the National Assembly. The paper was distributed, and we
8 were asked to act accordingly and to convey the instructions to the
9 Municipal Boards and inform them about the existence of the two
11 Now that accurately reflects who was present and what happened at
12 that meeting; correct?
13 A. I can only confirm that I attended that meeting, that I received
14 that document, that paper, and that I acquainted the Municipal Board with
15 its contents. It was my policy to inform the Municipal Board of
16 everything, and that's how it was throughout the time I was at the helm
17 of that board.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender the page from which I just read out.
19 It's page 39 of 65 ter 25674.
20 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload the page?
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: 65 ter 25674, page 39. And it's the first full
22 answer on that page, where it says: "Received those at the meeting at
23 Sarajevo ..."
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in English here.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON:
1 Q. Mr. Miskovic, just so you know, this is the passage I read out to
2 you so it was translated to you in B/C/S.
3 JUDGE KWON: You were asked from whom you did receive these
4 instructions and your answer:
5 "Received those at a meeting in Sarajevo -- or, rather, in Pale,
6 a meeting that we attended, but I can't be sure of the exact location.
7 All party presidents were present at the meeting, as well as deputies in
8 the National Assembly. The paper was distributed, and we were asked to
9 act accordingly and to convey the instructions to the Municipal Boards
10 and inform them about the existence of the two variants."
11 Do you stand by that answer you gave in Stanisic and Zupljanin
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit this page. Have we admitted it
15 already? Not yet.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: No.
17 JUDGE KWON: So we'll admit this page.
18 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6587, Your Honours.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: And while we have this exhibit up, if we could go
20 to page 60.
21 Q. And again, Mr. Miskovic, this is only in English. So I will read
22 it to you. This is at the top of the page. You say:
23 "Let me inform the Chamber so that the Chamber knows. The
24 establishment of the Serbian Assembly was in case that they were supposed
25 to take over power, in case we were supposed to secede, we had to have
1 bodies that functioned already. They were not functioning. The joint
2 bodies were still functioning so this was just the establishment of the
3 Assembly according to Variant B and the Serbian presidents, and Serbian
4 bodies were established and elected in case there was a cessation of the
5 Serbian territories from the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We always
6 wanted to have authorities in place and that's how they had been created
7 and that's how they were composed of, from the cadre that has just been
8 shown. The joint government still functioning properly at the time in
10 Now that accurately describes the creation of the Serbian
11 Municipal Assembly in Prijedor pursuant to Variant B and the purpose of
12 that Variant A and B document in your view; correct?
13 A. I don't know if you have presented this to the Chamber
14 accurately. I will repeat. It is true that on the 7th of January, 1992,
15 I believe, we established a Serbian Assembly which existed on paper but
16 did not function. The basic reason for its establishment was the
17 following: In case of danger to the Serbs in the Prijedor municipality,
18 and there were many indications that that might happen because it was not
19 possible to divide power in the municipality, and that's situation had
20 begun before I arrived. And therefore this shadow Assembly, if you will,
21 was established, and after a month, an Executive Board was set up too.
22 The members of the party and the members of the government had already
23 been elected at local elections. Stakic was the president, only through
24 his decision he was appointed president, conditionally speaking. And
25 then there was Milan Kovacevic, who was president of the Executive Board
1 remained in that position and so on. That's the essence. The essence is
2 not that Bosnia and Herzegovina could secede as you said. This was a
3 local issue.
4 In the territory of the Prijedor municipality, in this way a
5 Serbian municipality was established, and we didn't obstruct the two
6 other ethnicities to establish their own municipalities where they
7 constitute the majority of the population. In this way, we thought that
8 we could avoid confrontation and conflict in that area.
9 So this didn't have to do with Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole but
10 is limited to the Prijedor municipality, where the Serbs were the
11 majority. And we still haven't discussed the reasons for taking power,
12 but I believe the time will come for us to do so.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 25 of page 60 and in the
16 following lines, it was not recorded that the witnesses said: "In the
17 territory of Prijedor municipality to establish a Serbian municipality
18 and the Serbian territories."
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the areas where the Serbs were
20 the majority.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON:
22 Q. Mr. Miskovic, what you said in your previous testimony was that
23 purpose of Variant A and B document was to establish Serbian bodies in
24 the event there was a cessation of Serbian territories from the rest of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was the purpose of the Variant A and B
1 instructions; right?
2 A. I don't know. But I know that what I have just said is not in
3 contradiction to what I said earlier. This is the truth. I doubt that
4 it was different earlier, because we could not exert influence on
5 politics at BH level. We were at the local level and we -- all our
6 activities were also local. I'm talking about the Prijedor municipality
7 and, consequently, the Serbian municipality of Prijedor; that is, the
8 area where the Serbs were the majority. That's what I meant. And this
9 is also the context in which we have to understand this cessation, as far
10 as I understood.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this page as well, please, to be added
12 to P6587.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add that page.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON:
15 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, you attended in February of 1992 an extended
16 session of the SDS Main Board in Sarajevo where Dr. Karadzic activated
17 stage 2 of the Variant A and B instructions, and you passed on that
18 instruction from Dr. Karadzic to the Prijedor Municipal Board; right?
19 A. No, I don't remember that. When I received the paper with
20 Variants A and B at the Holiday Inn, after returning to Prijedor I
21 acquainted the members of the Municipal Board with that paper. This can
22 be found in the minutes somewhere.
23 Q. Mr. Miskovic --
24 A. All documents were seized when IFOR --
25 Q. I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you again because now you're
1 going back to December of 1991. You said you don't remember. I'm going
2 to show you the documents.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to P5516, please.
4 Q. These are the minutes of the SDS Prijedor Municipal Board of the
5 17th of February, 1992. And you can see right after the number -- the
6 word "agenda" and there is a number 1 which says:
7 "Briefing on the meeting of the Main Board and the Serbian
8 Assembly of BH."
9 And then it says that:
10 "After adopting the agenda, Simo Miskovic, the president of the
11 SDS Municipal Board, gave a briefing on the meeting held in Sarajevo."
12 And the first thing you're recorded as saying is that
13 Mr. Karadzic, President of SDS BH, was the main speaker.
14 "It is an act of cessation of the BH, on the part of the SDA. In
15 that respect, we are forced to create national communities on ethnic
17 And if we could move down in the English and go to the next page
18 in the B/C/S, about three or four lines in the B/C/S there is an asterisk
19 and you're recorded as stating:
20 "Serbs shall not participate in any way in the referendum
21 conducted by the SDA. In view of that, it is necessary to activate the
22 second stage of the position stated by the SDS BH Main Board."
23 Now, these minutes reflect you transmitting Dr. Karadzic's
24 instructions not to participate in the referendum and to implement the
25 second stage of the Variant A and B instructions; right?
1 A. My request to you would be if we could just return to this
2 document and reread it. It was a long time ago. I'm not so familiar
3 with the context. If I could just once more.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go back to page 1 in the B/C/S.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat?
6 MS. GUSTAFSON:
7 Q. My question was: These minutes reflect you transmitting to the
8 Municipal Board Dr. Karadzic's instructions, both the instruction not to
9 participate in the referendum and the instruction to implement the second
10 stage of the Variant A and B instructions; right?
11 A. I don't know that at that meeting or at any meeting, for that
12 matter, although I may have forgotten, that the main -- that at the
13 Main Board session was -- there were ever suggestions to act in
14 accordance with Variants A or B. Only in the event of danger to the
15 Serbian people in any given area. That is true, for sure. But I don't
16 remember all directives. In general, I remember that it was this way.
17 If this is an original and if this was discussed there -- does this bear
18 my signature, by the way?
19 Q. Mr. Miskovic, maybe we can shortcut it by -- I can put what you
20 said previously about this.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 25674 again, please, at
22 page 48.
23 Q. And since it's only in English, I'll begin reading it while it's
24 coming up. And you're being asked about these same minutes I just showed
25 you and you're asked:
1 "The minutes that we're looking at, sir, say or report that it's
2 necessary to activate the second stage of the position stated by the
3 SDS BH Main Board; namely, Variant A and B at this time. Do you accept
4 that at this meeting --"
5 And you answer:
6 "Variant B, yes."
7 And you're asked:
8 "Do you accept that at this board meeting the conclusion was made
9 to activate the second stage of Variant B by the Prijedor Municipal
11 And this is at the bottom of the page, you say:
12 "You mean, was that a decision by the Municipal Board at the
13 time," over to the next page, "that work should be done on the activities
14 of Variant B? Is that what you mean? If that's what you mean, then yes,
16 Now it's correct, as you stated in your previous testimony, that
17 at the Prijedor Municipal Board meeting, the minutes of which we just
18 looked at, the decision was taken to begin activating the stage 2 of the
19 Variant A and B instructions; correct?
20 A. I have just confirmed that the Municipal Board decided about
21 that. I don't remember that the Main Board or the leadership of the
22 party decided about that; whereas the Municipal Board, yes, it did decide
23 about that and a Serbian Assembly and an Executive Board were
24 established. Both shadow bodies.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could have P12, please. Page 5 of the
1 English and page 4 of the B/C/S.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is a recording of the
3 14th of February, 1992, extended session of the Main and
4 Executive Boards. Right at the bottom of page 5 in the English, and near
5 the middle of the page 4 in the B/C/S, and this is all Dr. Karadzic
6 speaking, he says:
7 "That is, if you remember, who keeps that in mind, or maybe not
8 on his person, a stage number 2. There is, remember," and then the next
9 page in the English, "you know what I am talking about. We know, yes,
10 that is therefore the stage number 2, the second stage, in smaller or
11 bigger variations, but you have to implement that slowly now, to have
12 absolute control who is travelling along your roads, what they are
13 transporting, for which purposes. That's the way it must be."
14 Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is Dr. Karadzic's first reference at this
15 meeting to -- where he instructs municipal representatives to activate
16 stage 2 of the Variant A and B document; right?
17 A. I do not remember this document, nor do I remember this
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 7 of the English and
20 page 5 of the B/C/S. And this is about a third of the way down in the
21 B/C/S and it's about -- starts about five lines down in the English.
22 Q. Dr. Karadzic says:
23 "We must not participate in the referendum. Everything they do
24 without us is of no use."
25 And about five lines down, he says:
1 "The second thing that is very important, it gives us full moral
2 right not to accept any decision resulting from the referendum, and it
3 gives us right to introduce the stage number 2 in functioning of your
4 areas and relying on your own forces to absolutely defend yourself from
5 the independent Bosnia and Herzegovina."
6 This is Dr. Karadzic's second reference to the need to implement
7 stage 2 of the Variant A and B document at this meeting. Do you remember
8 that one?
9 A. I said a minute ago that I don't remember this document at all
10 and I don't remember the conversation, either. It's a fact, however, and
11 it's beyond dispute, that the whole Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina
12 was against the secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the former
13 Yugoslavia. And in that context, later on a referendum was carried out.
14 So it's beyond dispute that all the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina were
15 against Bosnia-Herzegovina seceding from Yugoslavia, because they thought
16 that they would be jeopardized by that way as a collective body.
17 Q. I'll show you one more passage from this meeting, and it's at
18 page 17 of the English and page 12 of the B/C/S.
19 I'm not sure if it's just my problem, but my e-court screen is
20 now black. I have nothing.
21 JUDGE KWON: Probably it's time to take a break. We'll have a
22 break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.15.
23 I have been told that we cannot go beyond 3.00 due to a
24 Status Conference, which takes place in the afternoon.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 --- On resuming at 1.19 p.m.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Miskovic, as I mentioned before the break, I'd like to show
7 you one last passage of this 14 February 1992 Main Board meeting where
8 Dr. Karadzic speaks at length. And that's on the page before you. It's
9 towards the bottom of the page in your language, about two-thirds of the
10 way down. And it's right near the middle in the English. And he says:
11 "I think that we Serbs must stop with declarations -- with
12 declaration. We've had enough declarations. And now those declarations
13 should be translated into a map. And the stage number 2 should also be
14 converted. The one we've talked about, the one you have, if not here,
15 then at home, in order to -- in order to" --
16 A. I can't see this -- oh, yes. Sorry.
17 Q. "... in order to have authorities in the field functioning, that
18 a bird cannot fly over, really."
19 I take it from your earlier answers, Mr. Miskovic, that you also
20 have no recollection of this, the third mention Dr. Karadzic makes at
21 this meeting of activating stage 2? You don't remember attending any
22 such meeting; is that right?
23 A. I said already I don't remember this meeting at all. I'm not
24 saying it didn't take place. I'm just saying I have absolutely no memory
25 of it. As for the implementation of the Variant B, I've already said
1 that we had made that decision. We informed the Municipal Board, and we
2 later established the Serbian Assembly, et cetera, as per Variant B. But
3 I don't really remember this meeting. It was 20 years ago.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 14, the witness said: "We
7 established the Serbian Assembly and the shadow Executive Board."
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we have 65 ter 05721, page 23 of the
10 English and page 25 in the B/C/S, please.
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you give the number again.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: 65 ter 05721, please.
13 Q. Mr. Miskovic, I was just showing you the transcript of the
14 14 February 1992 extended meeting of the Main Board held at the
15 Holiday Inn in Sarajevo. Now this --
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: I need page 25 of the B/C/S.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see that here.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON:
19 Q. This is a Holiday Inn receipt in your name reflecting your stay
20 at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo on the night of the 14th and
21 15th of February, 1992, "to be paid for the hotel services for members of
22 the SDS Assembly." That's your holiday -- that's a Holiday Inn receipt
23 in your name reflecting your attendance at the meeting, the transcript of
24 which we just looked at; correct?
25 A. I never said, now or before, that I did not attend this meeting,
1 and I did receive the papers about Variant A and B. I don't see where
2 the problem is now. It's true that I spent the night at the Holiday Inn.
3 It's true that I attended the meeting. It's true that I received that
4 paper describing Variants A and B. And it's true that upon return to
5 Prijedor, I informed the Municipal Board thereof and it's true that we
6 later formed the Serbian Assembly and the shadow Executive Board.
7 Q. Mr. Miskovic, I think you're confused. You're now talking again
8 about December 1991. I am talking about the 14 February 1992 meeting,
9 the transcript of which I just showed you, at which Dr. Karadzic
10 activated stage 2 of the Variant A/B instructions which you already had.
11 And this Holiday Inn receipt reflects your attendance at that meeting on
12 the 14th of February, 1992, doesn't it?
13 A. I'm not confused. I'm confused only insofar that according to
14 this, and you'll confirm this, it seems that I was at the Holiday Inn
15 twice, but I was -- I stayed there only once, and that's when I received
16 that Variant A and B paper. It's possible that this meeting took place,
17 but I don't remember it. I remember only the other one. It's not
18 disputed that I stayed at the Holiday Inn, that I took that paper. Are
19 you staying that I stayed at the Holiday Inn twice, on the 14th and some
20 other date? I don't know about that. I was there only once as far as I
21 remember, if memory serves me at all.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this page of this 65 ter.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6588, Your Honours.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON:
1 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 14 of your statement you talk
2 about the SDS take-over of power in Prijedor on the 30th of April, 1992,
3 and you describe it as something that was intended to ease rising
4 tensions and ensure peace. Now, however you may have viewed that, you
5 would agree, wouldn't you, that it is highly unlikely that the Muslims
6 and Croats of Prijedor viewed the unilateral take-over of power of the
7 democratically elected government in Prijedor by the SDS as a move that
8 would ease ethnic tensions. They would have seen that as a provocative
9 move that would have added to the ethnic tensions at the time, no?
10 A. As far as the take-over is concerned and the tensions that
11 existed and that were caused in a way by the take-over, this Court should
12 know that the problem in Prijedor, when I came to be the head of the
13 party, from the very beginning was the division of power after the
14 multi-party elections. I'm saying this because you just mentioned that
15 the take-over could have caused tensions on the other side. If you put
16 it that way, then one could conclude that obstruction and shirking from
17 the division of power after the multi-party elections was on the part of
18 the SDA because they covered all the important posts in Prijedor
19 municipality so that out of ten senior posts --
20 THE ACCUSED: I appeal to the Chamber that witness would be
21 allowed to accomplish his own response.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: I didn't ask for a history of what happened in
23 Prijedor after the multi-party elections. I asked a very simple
25 Q. Mr. Miskovic, would you agree that the Muslims and Croats of
1 Prijedor on the whole viewed the SDS's unilateral take-over of power on
2 the 30th of April, 1992, as a provocative move that inflamed ethnic
4 A. I wanted to show you that it was not what happened.
5 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Mr. Miskovic, your answer is no?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course not. But I didn't want
7 to give such a terse answer. I wanted to explain why.
8 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson may ask why. Wait for the question,
10 Please continue please, Ms. Gustafson.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could have D31830, please.
12 Q. Mr. Miskovic, these are the 23rd of April, 1992, SDS
13 Municipal Board meeting minutes. And you're clearly present because it
14 says you opened the meeting. And if you could look at number 5 in the
15 list of decisions, it says:
16 "To immediately start working on the take-over, the co-ordination
17 with the JNA notwithstanding."
18 When you were shown this document previously and this particular
19 point in your prior testimony, you said that this reflects the fact that
20 the SDS was preparing to take-over power, and that if the JNA was not
21 willing to do it, you would carry it out with armed Serb reserve soldiers
22 and police; correct? That's what number 5 here reflects.
23 A. In item 5 it says, "Start work immediately on the take-over
24 regardless of co-ordination with the JNA." My signature is missing from
25 this. I don't know where you found this record. All the records were
1 kept in longhand. I have them at home. But it's indisputable that in
2 keeping with Variant B we had the intention of using this corps in
3 Prijedor municipality to take over and thus prevent a pogrom. And you
4 could see that during the take-over, there were no unfortunate events
5 until the -- until what happened later.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 9, it's missing: "In the
9 event of danger, we take measures to prevent a pogrom." "Danger to the
10 Serbian people," the witness said.
11 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON:
13 Q. Mr. Miskovic, again, if you could please answer directly my
14 question. Do you agree that point 5 of these minutes reflect the SDS
15 position at the time, that they were preparing to take over power and
16 that if the JNA was not willing to do it, you would carry it out with
17 armed Serb reservists and police?
18 A. This is taken out of context. A moment ago you did not let me
19 explain the fear from the other side --
20 Q. Mr. Miskovic --
21 A. -- in case of take-over. I wanted to explain --
22 JUDGE KWON: Let him continue.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to enable you to see the
24 fear on the other side, why the Serb side was forced to carry out this
25 take-over. It's difficult for you to understand what happened in the
1 area of Prijedor and Kozara, but in another testimony I explained it. In
2 the Second World War, that region saw --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Miskovic --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- saw a huge loss of life.
5 JUDGE KWON: -- we won't go there.
6 Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, if I could have 65 ter 25674, page 84,
9 Q. And, Mr. Miskovic, I am going to read out what you said in your
10 prior testimony when you were shown point 5 of this document.
11 You were asked:
12 "And finally with this document, sir, number 5, there is a
13 conclusion" --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Are we on correct page?
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: No, it should be page 84.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the Serbian.
17 JUDGE KWON: There is no Serb version of the transcript at the
18 International Tribunal. She will read out and then you can hear it.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON:
20 Q. "And finally with this document, sir, number 5" --
21 A. I apologise.
22 Q. -- "there is a conclusion or a decision, sorry, to immediately
23 start working on the take-over. Do you see that?"
24 "A. Yes, yes.
25 "Q. And what did that mean?
1 "A. Well, you know what that meant. It meant that certain
2 preparations had to be made because the blockade was still ongoing in
3 order to take over power. Something had to happen there. We had to let
4 the water out, conditionally speaking. In that sense, that is what it
5 means. There were armed soldiers in the JNA. If the JNA was not willing
6 to do it, then we would take the Serb soldiers, and then in the police we
7 would have the policemen and the reserve forces, so from both sources we
8 had armed people, and in that way we would protect the Serbian people.
9 So it was in that sense, and that's what actually was -- that's actually
10 what happened later."
11 That's what you said in your previous testimony in relation to
12 the document I just showed you and that is correct, is it not?
13 A. I am not disputing that we were working to organise and prepare
14 the people -- I mean, that was the time when the JNA still existed. But
15 when the JNA was disbanded, all the Serb soldiers and all able-bodied
16 Serb men who had been engaged in the TO back in 1991, they were the ones
17 who were supposed to protect the Serb people in Prijedor municipality.
18 That's the context in which you should understand this, and in that
19 context it's not disputed.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd tender this page.
21 Q. And, Mr. Miskovic, again, I'd like you to please listen to my
22 questions and answer my questions. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll add this page.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've answered.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON:
1 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, a few minutes ago when I asked you about
2 this -- the minutes regarding the -- with the mention of the taking over
3 of power, you said that:
4 "... it's indisputable that in keeping with Variant B we had the
5 intention of using this corps in Prijedor municipality to take over and
6 thus prevent a pogrom."
7 And I'd just like to confirm that you did consider the
8 take-over -- the SDS take-over on the 30th of April was part of your
9 implementation of Variant B of the Main Board instructions; correct?
10 A. Excuse me, I didn't get the beginning, the beginning of the
12 Q. It's correct that you considered the SDS take-over of power on
13 the 30th of April to be part of your implementation of Variant B of the
14 Variant A/B instructions; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now at paragraph 12 of your statement, you explain that there was
17 a certain period of time in which you could not receive instructions from
18 Pale, and earlier in your testimony today you mentioned the time when
19 there wasn't a corridor. Now you did attend the 12th of May -- you
20 attended the 12th of May, 1992, RS Assembly session in Banja Luka, where
21 Dr. Karadzic announced the strategic objectives. You were at that
22 session; right?
23 A. Most probably. I don't remember the date. But if I was invited
24 as president of the party, then I certainly went. But I don't remember
25 the date or the discussion or the agenda.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could have 65 ter 25629, please.
2 MR. ROBINSON: I was just wondering if this was notified to us to
3 be used.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: It was certainly meant to be. I can
6 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is a summary of the 18 May 1992 SDS
7 Municipal Board meeting.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: And I'm just informed that it's my omission. I
9 neglected to notify this document. I hope it doesn't cause any
11 MR. ROBINSON: It's no problem, Mr. President, but it's nice that
12 it happens once in a while on your side instead of always on our side.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's appreciated.
14 Q. And agenda item 2 says:
15 "Report from the session of the Serbian Republic of BH Assembly."
16 And if you look down at number 2, it says:
17 "A report on the Assembly session was presented by President S
19 And it says there were 18 items on the agenda, "the main
20 guidelines in future activities were identified. Commander of the army
21 supreme staff appointed, members of the Presidency of the Republic
22 elected, et cetera."
23 Now, does this remind you of the fact that you attended the
24 12 May 1992 RS Assembly session at which Dr. Karadzic announced the
25 strategic objectives and then you passed on information from that session
1 to the SDS Municipal Board?
2 A. I can only tell you this: I went to all the meetings to which I
3 was invited as president of the party in Prijedor. However, 20 years
4 later, I don't remember the agendas or the discussion or the conclusions.
5 Now I'm looking at this agenda but I don't remember it at all. And I
6 don't know what to say. But I'm not questioning that I attended all the
7 meetings to which I was invited or the sessions of the Main Board. I
9 Q. Okay. Well, this document reflects your attendance at an
10 RS Assembly session, and the contents of what's stated here, in
11 particular the appointment of the Main Staff commander and the members of
12 the Presidency, indicate that that was in fact the 16th Session held on
13 the 12th of May. Do you have any reason to doubt that you were, in fact,
14 at that session and then reported back to the Prijedor SDS about it?
15 A. I said to you a moment ago, if I was invited to sessions, then I
16 was certainly present because I was never absent. I thought it was my
17 duty and obligation to attend in view of the position that I held. And
18 it certainly was that way if that is what is written in the minutes, that
19 that is how I informed the Municipal Board. But at this moment, I cannot
20 remember the agenda, the discussion, or the conclusions.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this document.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6589, Your Honours.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 14 of your statement you discuss
1 the attack on the town of Prijedor by Muslim and Croat formations on the
2 30th of May, 1992. And you state that this attack "cast a shadow over
3 all previous agreements and activities that had ensured peace in
4 Prijedor." Now --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You are ignoring the fact that prior to the 30th of May, in the
7 days preceding that, the VRS carried out major shelling and infantry
8 attacks on the Muslim villages of Hambarine and Kozarac, shelling Muslim
9 homes and killing and rounding up inhabitants of those villages. Now,
10 there was no peace in Prijedor in the days prior to the
11 30th of May, 1992, was there? The Muslim population was already under
13 A. I think that it's the other way around, actually, and this is
14 why. First of all, after the take-over of Prijedor, take a look at this,
15 there was not single incident. No shops were broken. There were no
16 conflicts between national structures. Communication was regularly
17 maintained between and among all three ethnicities, all the way up until
18 the first attack, when the Serb policeman Dzapa was killed. And then his
19 uncle took revenge against these innocent Muslims who were on a bus
20 coming from Zagreb. Then there was this attack when soldiers were
21 ambushed by the Muslim forces on the way from Hambarine. They killed two
22 or three soldiers, I cannot remember anymore, and wounded a few. Then
23 the army reacted. Also, the Prijedor-Banja Luka road was blockaded,
24 although we had previously agreed on free communication, that there would
25 be free communication in all directions. So there was a reaction after
1 these incidents. It was not just a capricious thing.
2 Q. So --
3 A. I've already explained that.
4 Q. And in fact after the shelling of Kozarac, you went to Kozarac
5 and you saw homes and buildings that had been destroyed by the shelling;
7 A. No, I was not in Kozarac up until the after the end of war. I
8 haven't been Mrakovica yet either.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 25674, please, page 104.
10 Q. And at the very bottom of the page, the last question, it says:
11 "When did you go back to Kozarac?"
12 And this is in English, so I'll read it to you. And on the next
13 page you answer:
14 "For the first time? For the first time, it was after the
15 shelling. I think I reached Dera. And not again for a long time.
16 "Q. And this was -- this was a town that you knew well. What
17 did you receive when you arrived there, after the shelling?
18 "A. Well, I saw some houses and buildings destroyed by the
20 Now, that's what you said when you testified previously and
21 that's true, isn't it, Mr. Miskovic?
22 A. Thank you for having reminded me. It is true that after the
23 shelling -- well, it was in a private capacity because the party was
24 banned, but never mind. I remember I got not mosque there. Yes, you
25 have reminded me just now. And I saw that part of the houses were, I
1 mean, damaged. But that is just this one time that I was there.
2 Q. Now at paragraph 15 you briefly mention your visit to Omarska.
3 You state that Mico Kovacevic invited you to visit the camp with him.
4 And again, I'd like to remind you about some of the things you've said
5 previously about this visit and ask you to confirm them.
6 First, your visit to Omarska was together with a group of
7 officials from Banja Luka and Prijedor, including Radislav Brdjanin,
8 Stojan Zupljanin, Mico Kovacevic, and Milomir Stakic; right?
9 A. In the other statements I have already told you that it so
10 happened that I was in front of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor when
11 there was this jeep on the main road, and then Mico Kovacevic came up.
12 And I cannot remember, you say that Stakic was there, too. Probably he
13 was. I don't know. But as for Mico, we've known each other for a long
14 time because his older brother lives in my neighbourhood and I know him
15 from the days when we were students. And Mico came up, and he asked me
16 to come along, and I said where are you going. And he said they came
17 from Banja Luka and we are going to Omarska, and that's how I went along.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 25675, page 66 of the
19 English and page 102 of the B/C/S.
20 Q. I interrupted you because I was just asking you who you went
21 with, and I will show you what you said before about this now, because it
22 appears you don't recall.
23 A. It is a fact that I went and it's a fact that Mico invited me.
24 And who else was there, I don't know. It's possible.
25 Q. If you could just wait for the question.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: It should be page 66 in the English, page 102 in
2 the B/C/S.
3 Q. And you were asked right around the middle of the page:
4 "You actually went to Omarska in the company of Predrag Radic,
5 didn't you?"
6 And you answer: "A number of them."
7 And you're asked: "Let's go through them.
8 And you say: "Yes."
9 "Radoslav Brdjanin?
11 "Stojan Zupljanin?
13 "Who else?
14 "Mico Kovacevic, Stakic.
15 "Who else was there?
16 "There were other people from Banja Luka."
17 So it's correct, is it not, that among the people you visited
18 Omarska with were Brdjanin, Zupljanin, Kovacevic, and Stakic, no?
19 A. I'm telling you, and I've stated that already on each and every
20 occasion, that I was in Omarska on that day. And I told you about the
21 way I went there. I do not remember --
22 Q. If you could please just answer the question. If you don't
23 remember who you went with, please just say so.
24 A. Right now I don't remember.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could tender this page. I don't believe any
2 of this interview has an exhibit number yet.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive this page.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6590, Your Honours.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 68 of the English and
6 page 104 of the B/C/S.
7 Q. And just above the middle of the page in the English and towards
8 the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, you're asked:
9 "Was it clear to you that the people you saw in the camp had been
11 And you said:
12 "I could see that they looked ill or looked bad, but I couldn't
13 see what the treatment was since I wasn't there."
14 Now that's correct, isn't it, you could see that the detainees
15 looked ill and looked bad when you visited Omarska?
16 A. I said, I mean during the previous conversation, and I confirm
17 that now, I just passed by these people who were standing on the other
18 side of the fence, and I went to these steps that were on the left-hand
19 side and we went to that room. I, I mean, cannot say who looked which
20 way physically, who looked sick or who did not look sick. I think I just
21 said that some of them had beards and I couldn't recognise them,
22 therefore, and I am sure that they all recognised me because they knew me
23 from before, you know. But I could not recognise anyone because I --
24 although I did pass nearby.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could I add this page to P6590, please.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 63 of the English and
3 page 97 of the B/C/S.
4 Q. And this is near the top of the page in both languages, and
5 you're asked:
6 "The people in those camps, Keraterm and Omarska, included women,
7 didn't they? Or at least Omarska did?"
8 And you answered:
9 "Yes, I saw women when I first went there, and among them even my
10 colleague Sifeta [phoen], I can't remember her family name."
11 And that's correct as well, isn't it, Mr. Miskovic, you saw women
12 among the detainees at Omarska when you went there; right?
13 A. Miskovic, not Misetic. It is true that I saw my colleague from
14 work there, Sifeta, I forgot her last name. And I kept saying -- well, I
15 never said that that was camp because, for me, that was an investigation
16 centre. And I explained why I considered that to be an investigation
17 centre. Because people were being investigated by the police, public,
18 secret --
19 Q. Mr. Miskovic --
20 A. -- professionals, that's my opinion.
21 Q. Again, you're straying away from the question.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: So I'd like to go now to page 69 of the English
23 and page 106 of the B/C/S.
24 A. I said that I saw Sifeta there, my colleague.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
1 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection in relation to
3 the camps. In the question, it says "camp," but the witness is
4 commenting on the fact that he did not accept that that was a camp.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For no reason --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I explained the reasons why
8 I --
9 JUDGE KWON: The witness has answered the question and we can go
11 THE ACCUSED: He was interrupted.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON:
13 Q. And near the top of the page in the English and towards the
14 middle of the B/C/S, you state:
15 "We climbed a staircase at this building."
16 And a few lines down you say:
17 "And as far as I remember, they were singing Serb or Chetnik
19 And you're asked:
20 "Weren't you surprised that the Bosniaks and Croats were singing
21 Serb songs?"
22 And you say:
23 "Yes, I was. Someone made them to."
24 And I understand that in the B/C/S you also say: "It was
1 Now that's correct as well, isn't it, Mr. Miskovic, when you and
2 the others visited Omarska, the detainees were forced to sing Serb or
3 Chetnik songs?
4 A. I don't know whether they were forced. I did hear that, but I
5 was not present when somebody was forcing them to do that, if that
6 happened in the first place. But I did hear them sing.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: I would add this page to P6590, please.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 15, and again in your -- just a
11 moment ago you stated that Omarska was an investigation centre. And in
12 your statement you said that's what you believed because professional MUP
13 officials were engaged in interrogating the prisoners. But isn't it true
14 that at the time you actually questioned this label "investigation
15 centre" because it wasn't clear to you how so many people could be
16 allegedly investigated yet not a single charge brought against any of
17 them? Isn't that what you thought at the time?
18 A. As regards that, I mean my opinion is very well known. I've
19 already explained the reason why I think this was an investigation
20 centre. However, as president of the party, and the work of the party
21 was frozen, nobody informed me about the procedures there and whether
22 there were proceedings instituted and whether somebody was punished,
23 sentenced, et cetera, I really don't know about that. But those carrying
24 out the investigations in the area do know. If there are no criminal
25 reports or criminal charges or other charges -- I mean, I would just be
1 surprised as a professional.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 22182, please. And if we
3 could go to page 62.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is a transcript of an audio-recorded
5 interview you gave the Prosecution back in 2001, and we only have an
6 English transcript, so I'm going to read out a passage of that to you.
7 A. All right.
8 Q. In the middle of the page you are asked:
9 "You must be aware, surely, that the detention camps were set up
10 in Prijedor municipality?"
11 And you answer:
12 "No, it was like this as far as I know, as far as I was informed.
13 I am telling you now the way I found out about it as an ordinary citizen,
14 because the party was not operational, the work, the activities of the
15 party were frozen. The information that I have was that collection
16 centres and investigation centres were established. Investigation centre
17 being one in Omarska. But I know one thing because fair number of my
18 colleagues from the police was engaged in investigating people there,
19 that is why I thought, I mean, why this was confirmed to me that this was
20 investigation. But comment after everything was that, I said it wasn't
21 clear to me, as I was policeman, that so many people being investigated
22 but no charges were brought against them. There was not a single
24 Now, that's what you said in 2001 and that reflects your
25 questioning of the label of Omarska as an investigation centre because
1 not a single charge was brought against any detainee; right?
2 A. I've already said I don't know whether charges were brought or
3 were not brought. Nobody informed me officially. But I'm just saying to
4 you as a professional, if - if - no charges were brought, then that is
5 not clear to me. But I don't know. I wasn't functioning in that way at
6 the time, and nobody had the duty to inform me in any way about that. I
7 just got this information as an ordinary citizen, as the statement says.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I would tender this page of this interview,
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive this page.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6591, Your Honours.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 13 you state that you only later
14 learned about the Keraterm investigation centre. But you did know about
15 the existence of Keraterm when it was operational, didn't you, because
16 you heard about the massacre of prisoners there shortly after it
17 happened; right?
18 A. The fact is that I do remember this thing happened. I was
19 returning from Banja Luka - and I don't know why I went to Banja Luka -
20 and at the crossroads in Cirkin Polje, the police were standing there and
21 they were blocking the main road, and I said: What's going on? And they
22 said there are some problems there. And I thought that perhaps there was
23 a traffic accident. And they said there are some problems and we have to
24 go in a different direction. And then I did go in a different direction,
25 and I found out that certain unfortunate things had happened in Keraterm.
1 That's when I founded out about that. After all, at the time I was -- I
2 mean, I had a relationship with a certain lady and her brother was there
3 at the time, so I heard from him about this thing that had happened.
4 Q. In fact, you had a relationship with a certain Muslim lady. She
5 had relatives in Keraterm, and you heard from her that there had been a
6 massacre of prisoners there; right?
7 A. Allegedly, yes, a certain number of people had lost their lives.
8 Q. But you know now that that was true; right? There were almost
9 200 people massacred one night in Keraterm. You know that now to be
10 true, don't you? You said "allegedly."
11 A. I don't know that. I don't know. I don't know to this day.
12 This is the first time I hear this information.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 25674, page 169, please.
14 Oh, sorry, just one other question on this issue.
15 Q. Mr. Miskovic, it's true that you did not do anything to try to
16 find out what action was being taken against the people that had
17 committed that alleged crime; right?
18 A. I don't know on what basis I, as an ordinary citizen, could take
19 action and interfere in the work of others, especially armed persons at
20 the time. The work of the party was frozen at the time, so I operated
21 like any other ordinary citizen at that time.
22 Q. So I take it that you agree you didn't do anything to find out
23 what -- what was being done to investigate that crime or bring the
24 perpetrators of the alleged crime to justice?
25 A. Well, I was not in charge of that. There are services and organs
1 that are in charge of doing that. Whether they did implement that or
2 not, I don't know.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 169 of 65 ter 25674,
5 please. This should be page 169. I think we need to move forward
6 three pages. One more page, please. That's it. Thank you.
7 Q. And I'm going to read to you what you said, a passage from your
8 prior testimony, and this is about two-thirds of the way down this page.
9 You said:
10 "I was invited to come to the corps command because I often
11 reacted to the looting and other crimes such as smuggling and so on, so
12 people from the region would be summoned to come to the corps command to
13 find out what's going on. And then the issue was raised how it's
14 possible that the trucks can go through all the 50 check-points from our
15 territory to Serbia, whereas I cannot even take a pin through these
17 Now, what you were describing here, as I understand it, is that
18 on one occasion you went to the 1 KK Corps command and complained about
19 looting and smuggling; is that right?
20 A. Well, in relation to this, because I often reacted to that kind
21 of thing at the Municipal Board and also on a private basis as a private
22 individual, I was asked to come to the corps command and also other
23 representatives of that subregion. They asked us to say who these people
24 were. Who, I mean, did that. But I said: I mean how is it that you
25 don't know them? I think that's what I said. There are about
1 50 check-points from here to Serbia and I, conditionally speaking, cannot
2 get a needle through that way, and now you're asking me whose trucks
3 these were. So this is it to the best of my recollection in that
5 Q. So as I understand it, you were complaining that trucks with
6 looted goods could go through all 50 check-points between Prijedor and
7 Serbia but you couldn't take anything at all through these check-points.
8 Is that a correct understanding?
9 A. These were not looted goods. This was a case of illegal trade.
10 I mean, at the time when other young people were getting killed. That's
11 the context. Because I don't know who was transporting what in trucks.
12 Q. Okay. You said:
13 "I often reacted to the looting and other crimes such as
14 smuggling and so on, so people from the region would be summoned to come
15 to the corps command to find out what's going on."
16 Now you agree, do you not, that the discussion you had at the
17 corps command was about looting?
18 A. I did not initiate that. They called me to ask me why I was
19 reacting that way. And it wasn't only me. It was also from Dubica and
20 Novi, people from there, I think. And we've said what I've already told
21 you about. I said that I could not get a needle through 50 check-points,
22 and trucks and trailer-trucks could go through these check-points and now
23 you're calling me to ask me who these people are. I am not checking
24 them, I'm not checking the goods that they were transporting. I, as a
25 citizen, simply see the reaction of people, and as a normal person I have
1 to say that. I mean, while young people are getting killed. I just have
2 to react to that.
3 Q. Sorry, Mr. Miskovic, it's just not a hundred per cent clear to me
4 and I would just like you to confirm if you could with a yes or a no.
5 The discussion you had --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry.
8 JUDGE KWON: Because given that the witness doesn't understand
9 English and there's no B/C/S version, probably when you read the
10 transcript read from the question and that's -- so that the witness can
11 follow. This was a question whether you visited the Krajina Corps when
12 Mr. Subotic visited Prijedor with Zupljanin, et cetera. So this is your
13 answer. I quote:
14 "I was invited to come to the corps command because I often
15 reacted to the looting and other crimes such as smuggling and so on, so
16 people from the region would be summoned to come to the corps command to
17 find out what's going on. And then the issue was raised how it is
18 possible that trucks can go through all the 50 check-points from our
19 territory to Serbia, whereas I cannot even take a pin through those
21 Do you remember having said so?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The context is the following:
23 We -- you have stated all the elements --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but the context is --
1 JUDGE KWON: You can answer -- start your answer with "yes" or
2 "no" and then you can explain. Do you remember having said so,
3 Mr. Miskovic? That's your testimony in Zupljanin case.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's true. It's true. But
5 the sequence how things went, I was also invited. I didn't go there of
6 my own accord. Although, it would have been better if I had reacted of
7 my own initiative but that's how it was anyway.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 Please continue. Shall we add that page?
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, I think that --
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: -- would be a good thing.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, if I could just get you to answer, if
14 possible, with a "yes" or a "no," this discussion at the corps command
15 involved the subject of looting and smuggling. I'm not asking you what
16 was said. Just that that was the topic or at least one of the topics
17 discussed at that meeting; is that right?
18 A. I can repeat today that I was invited there. I reacted
19 immediately when I was asked who those people were. I reacted in the
20 same way that I talked to you, and I was interrupted. But I couldn't put
21 it differently. I said: How is it that I can't take a pin through these
22 check-points, whereas others drove entire trailer-trucks through? And I
23 received no answer but, of course, he wasn't obliged to give me one.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 21740, please.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 6 and 16 of your statement, you
1 discuss the conflict you have with municipal officials in Prijedor, which
2 resulted in you threatening to resign in October of 1992. And you state
3 that you were seeking to distance yourself and the party from all the
4 negative conduct in Prijedor, and that your platform which you presented
5 on the 5th of October, 1992, was the basic policy of the Municipal Board.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, this 65 ter number was somehow
7 transferred to 25720, so I think that's where you'll find it.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. No, this is
9 not what I'm looking for. If we could go to the next page, please.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is your 5th of October, 1992, proposal,
11 is it not? Or platform, as you put it.
12 A. Yes, it is. Yes, that's what I call it.
13 Q. And if we can look at number 3, it says:
14 "To publicly distance the party from any form of theft, misuse,
15 and war profiteering, as well as any illegal and immoral activities..."
16 And if we could quickly look at number 7, which should be on the
17 next page, it says:
18 "To return to our state all of the unlawfully appropriated
19 material assets, machines, technical equipment, flats, money, et cetera,
20 which are going to be necessary for its sustainment after the war."
21 Now, of the ten points in this platform, these are the only two
22 that address crime and the only crimes that are explicitly mentioned are
23 theft and war profiteering. Now I take it that this reflects the fact
24 that these were the crimes that you and others in the party were
25 principally concerned with at the time; is that right?
1 A. At the beginning of the platform it says, I think, since there
2 were rumours which somebody probably spread deliberately, that behind all
3 this dirty business in Prijedor, that is, all illegal business, there was
4 the Serbian Democratic Party. Since this is not true, and since I was
5 building my reputation, and I was known as a man of the law, and also to
6 defend my own dignity and that of the party, I was forced to come forward
7 with this platform, otherwise I would resign unconditionally. And I said
8 that the board must adopt it, which was done. And this was the platform
9 of the Prijedor Municipal Board at the time, and this was also our
10 orientation. I mean political orientation.
11 Q. Mr. Miskovic, you did not answer my question at all. My question
12 was: Does the fact that the only two crimes mentioned explicitly in the
13 document are theft and war profiteering reflect the fact that these were
14 the crimes that you and the party were principally concerned with?
15 A. I think that it says, black on white, here: All illegal and
16 immoral activities. That encompasses it all. So anything that was
17 against the law, all sorts of crimes. It says in clear language.
18 Nothing is left out.
19 Q. But you singled out theft and war profiteering. Doesn't that
20 reflect your particular concern with these crimes, the fact that you
21 singled them out in this document?
22 A. You know how it was. These are the things that were most obvious
23 to the people and you have to start with something; that is, looting,
24 crime, and so on. You can't go item by item, though, and enumerate
25 everything. And you must request all the authorities, including military
1 authorities, to do their job in order to prevent such behaviour.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go back one page and look at
3 number 4.
4 Q. And this item of your platform discusses replacing company
5 managers who supported other parties, Durakovic and Ante Markovic, with
6 SDS personnel. And on the next page, still in item 4, the second-last
7 paragraph of this item says:
8 "This is the main reason why there is a certain degree of
9 misunderstanding among some people in the Party, and among the Party" --
10 A. I can barely hear you. Something is -- oh, no, now it's okay.
11 Now it's all right.
12 Q. It says -- this is still under 4:
13 "This is the main reason why there is a certain degree of
14 misunderstanding among some people in the Party, and among the Party
15 representatives in the government."
16 So it's clear from this document that the main cause of the
17 conflict within the party in Prijedor was about personnel. It had
18 nothing to do with crime at all; right?
19 A. This is only one segment, just one bone of contention. The
20 representatives of a party had entered a coalition with other parties,
21 and I mean Ante Markovic's people from before the war and Durakovic's
22 socialist party and the reformists. And it was our opinion that they had
23 created or had given rise to all these negative things. And our
24 representatives in the ruling structures had implemented all that through
25 them. Of course, that was our view. We couldn't prove that.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: I would tender this document, which is at pages 2
2 through 4 of this 65 ter.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6592, Your Honours.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honours, I note my time is nearly up. This
6 is my last topic and I think I can conclude it within ten minutes.
7 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 1D25930. It now has an
9 exhibit number. I am not sure what it is. It's an associated exhibit.
10 Q. Mr. Miskovic, this is a document you discuss at paragraph 19 of
11 your statement. It's your letter of the 19th of October, 1992, to
12 Mr. Stakic, Mr. Kovacevic, and Mr. Drljaca, in which you ask these
13 authorities to take action regarding illegal activities. And again, the
14 only crimes that this letter explicitly identifies are looting, war
15 profiteering, and abuse of office, and this is another reflection, is it
16 not, of the fact that these were the crimes that principally concerned
17 you and other party members at the time?
18 A. We were concerned by all crimes, but these crimes were all too
19 obvious, because every house, every family gave their own contribution to
20 the war, and this went on in front of their eyes. And of course they
21 reacted. That's why we had to stress this. This is simply a request to
22 the authorities to start activities to -- aimed at military and civilian
23 structures to prevent all sorts of illegal behaviour. This is an
24 additional appeal to all authorities, including the police, so that
25 nobody could say that they weren't informed and that nothing -- that they
1 weren't ask to do anything.
2 Now, the army is a different thing. We didn't -- that was
3 something else all together.
4 Q. Now, you said, "These crimes were all too obvious," referring to
5 looting, war profiteering, and abuse of office. Mr. Miskovic, the crimes
6 like the massacre at Keraterm were obvious too, weren't they? Everybody
7 in Prijedor knew about that. But you don't mention that much more
8 serious crime in any of your letters and protestations and platforms, do
10 A. I don't know to what extent it was known, because it was kept
11 secret. There may have been rumours. But nobody ever stated it
12 officially. This was at an earlier time when the platform was adopted,
13 and what you're referring to came later. And the platform, with its
14 political statement, in fact, encompasses all sorts of illegal and
15 immoral behaviour.
16 Q. Your platform is dated the 5th of October, 1992. The massacre at
17 Keraterm had already happened; right? That was in July, wasn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, at paragraph 16 of your statement, you - in discussing your
20 5th of October platform - you state that at the Municipal Board session
21 the entire municipal leadership was dismissed for not having implemented
22 this policy. Now just to be clear, Mr. Stakic and Mr. Kovacevic
23 continued to serve as president of the municipality and president of the
24 Executive Board until January of 1993; correct?
25 A. They are not party representatives. They are representatives of
1 the authorities. And I -- and by this, Stakic, Kovacevic, Drljaca are
2 meant. The ones we wanted replaced.
3 Q. They were all SDS members, weren't they? In fact, they were all
4 Municipal Board members; right?
5 A. They were SDS members, but not Municipal Board members. Drljaca
6 was not, Stakic was vice-president, Mico Kovacevic was --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat.
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you repeat your answer.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all of them were members of the
10 Municipal Board of the SDS. Milomir Stakic was a member and he was
11 vice-president. He was also member of the Municipal Board.
12 Mico Kovacevic, president of the Executive Board, was not member of the
13 Municipal Board. Simo Drljaca was not a member of the Municipal Board.
14 Who else was there? I forget. But they were not members of the
15 Municipal Board. Stakic was a member and a vice-president, my
17 MS. GUSTAFSON:
18 Q. Now, Mr. Stakic and Mr. Kovacevic continued to serve as president
19 of the Municipal Assembly and president of the Executive Board until
20 January 1993; right?
21 A. Executive Board. I don't remember the date, but we launched
22 activities to replace the people in leading positions, and there were
23 problems. Soldiers with rifles came to our Assembly and there could have
24 been a confrontation, but we tolerated them because we had nothing to
25 hide. It was very cumbersome but we succeeded eventually.
1 And the last one to be replaced was Simo Drljaca with the
2 assistance of the party leadership. I believe that Mr. Krajisnik was in
3 charge of that. But all previous attempts were unsuccessful. The
4 minister of the interior, I believe his name was Hadzic, I am not sure,
5 and he tried to replace him but without success.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, you talk in your statement and also at
7 paragraph 16 about your efforts to have Simo Drljaca dismissed, which you
8 state you managed to do with the assistance of Mr. Krajisnik, something
9 you've just repeated. But, in fact, Mr. Drljaca was not exactly
10 dismissed, was he? He was promoted and became assistant minister of the
11 MUP, didn't he?
12 A. I don't know that. I know that at that Assembly we were able to
13 replace him because Krajisnik was there, and later on -- but later on,
14 even Stakic returned. But at that period, we strove to replace these
15 representatives of the authorities. There is no dispute about that.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 17 you state that:
17 "It is indisputable that SDS policy in Prijedor was not
18 discriminatory towards any ethnic structure ..."
19 The truth is, Mr. Miskovic, that the Prijedor municipal
20 authorities, including Stakic, Drljaca, and Kovacevic, all of whom, as
21 you've confirmed, were SDS members, were implementing the policy of the
22 RS and SDS leadership to permanently remove non-Serbs from the
23 municipality. That's why the crimes against non-Serbs continued for so
24 long on such a massive scale. That's why no one from the municipal
25 leadership was held accountable by the RS authorities for those crimes.
1 That's why Mr. Drljaca was promoted. And that's why you and the
2 municipal SDS leadership spoke out about crimes like looting and
3 smuggling and ignored the far more serious crimes going on against
4 Muslims and Croats; right?
5 A. You can't really put it like that. I said, and the platform also
6 reads, as far as our policy, our political position was that all crimes
7 and all illegal activities, no matter who committed them, should be
8 brought to justice. But we were not ones to do that. The hierarchy is
9 known. The authorities, the police, and so on. It is clear who has
10 power. The one who has weapons, especially at wartime. We cannot affect
11 people's appointments or dismissals. You saw that we couldn't even
12 prevent the army coming to our Assembly with long-barreled weapons.
13 Perhaps we could have, but then there would have been a confrontation,
14 and then what? So it was important to find the right measure and the
15 right balance. That's what my platform says, too. It has to start at
16 the top and then go down.
17 Q. Thank you. I have nothing further.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Your Excellencies, I will not manage to conclude today. Are we
22 going to work until 2.45 or 3.00?
23 JUDGE KWON: We can continue until 3.00, but -- if you like.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can, but he must -- since he must
25 come back tomorrow, you should decide.
1 JUDGE KWON: Do you have a problem coming back tomorrow?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Whatever you say.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Miskovic, let's start with the last issues
6 from the cross-examination as to how the Prosecution understands the
7 power and role of the SDS. And let's connect this with the claim of the
8 Prosecution, from page 75 of today's LiveNote, that on the 30th of April,
9 1992, the SDS took over power in Prijedor. Can you tell us whether the
10 SDS indeed took over power in Prijedor?
11 A. From the documents, we see the term "take-over of power."
12 However, we see from the documents that military structures, police
13 structures were involved, in the effort to establish a Serb authority, a
14 Serb government in Prijedor.
15 Q. You also accepted the contention that the take-over of power on
16 30th of April, 1992, was executed in keeping with Variant B. Can you
17 tell us, according to Variant B, what does the Serb side take over, the
18 whole municipality of Prijedor or the Serb municipality of Prijedor?
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: That was a leading -- that's a leading question.
20 It just should have stopped with "what does the Serb side take over."
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You will see, Your Excellencies,
22 that it's not a leading question.
23 JUDGE KWON: No, you can simply ask what does the Serb side take
24 over, as suggested by Ms. Gustafson.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. What was the Serb side supposed to take over, according to
2 plan B? And what did it take over on 30th of April, 1992?
3 A. According to Variant B, in the event of threat to the Serbian
4 people in that area, and to prevent that threat, the Serb side was
5 supposed to take over power and that was done in the territories
6 populated by a Serb majority. That's what I told Ms. Gustafson in her
8 Q. Who controlled Muslim parts of the municipality?
9 A. In all my previous statements I said and confirmed today,
10 whenever we discussed this issue, that in the municipality of Prijedor,
11 between Serb and Muslim areas there were check-points to prevent anyone
12 who would want to create an incident in the other side's neighbourhood.
13 And we succeeded in this effort. In this period there were no incidents
14 in either Serb or Muslim neighbourhoods created by a member of the other
15 ethnicity. In the same period, there were many talks and negotiations
16 with prominent people, people who had authority from the other ethnic
17 community, all with a view to preventing conflict, confrontation, and
18 war. You can see all these various views expressed in talks, et cetera,
19 but you have to understand that this area was severely victimised during
20 the Second World War. We had to prevent all sorts of --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak at a
22 normal speed.
23 JUDGE KWON: One moment. One moment, Mr. Miskovic. You are
24 speaking too fast, far too fast. You need to --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you to caution me because I
1 know I have this inclination.
2 JUDGE KWON: So you need to repeat. So you repeat from: "We had
3 to prevent all sorts of ..." If you remember.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to avoid confrontation we had
5 to prevent anyone who would, for whatever reason, cause confrontation
6 that would result in an avalanche, all in view of the experiences of that
7 area from the Second World War, which you may not know about. It was a
8 huge tragedy. Most of those who perished at the Jasenovac camp were
9 children from Mount Kozara --
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. It's for Mr. Karadzic, but do you
11 remember the question of Mr. Karadzic? What was his question now you're
13 So his question was: Who controlled Muslim parts of the
14 municipality? Did you answer that question?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did. They did. I answered
16 that by talking about the check-points. In addition to that, we had --
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- talks once or twice a day with
19 some of their representatives.
20 JUDGE KWON: Please be brief.
21 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. Please give us focused answers. You said that they
24 controlled their own territories.
25 A. Yes, we controlled our own and there were check-points to prevent
1 intruders going from one side to another.
2 Q. Until what time were these check-points tolerated?
3 A. I can't remember the date, but I can tell you that the situation
4 was peaceful, without a single incident on either side. All the way up
5 to the moment when a Serb policeman by the name of Dzapa was killed. And
6 the consequence of that, which was precisely what we feared and what we
7 tried to prevent, is that his uncle intercepted a bus coming from Zagreb
8 and killed several innocent Muslims, including by chance a colleague of
9 my late wife, who was travelling from Croatia and had a Croatian ID. And
10 there was -- and she was Serb, and she had trouble proving that she was
12 Another incident was when soldiers were ambushed near Hambarine,
13 when they were coming back from Slavonia. And a third incident was when
14 a roadblock was placed on the road although we had agreed earlier that we
15 would free up communications in the whole territory. That's when the
16 road Prijedor-Banja Luka was blocked near Kozarac and Kozarusa. And as
17 far as I know, the army came and intervened. Those are the three
18 incidents that caused confrontation in my view.
19 Q. We shall not go into what happened during the Second World War,
20 acknowledging the recommendation of the Honourable Presiding Judge, but
21 please tell us, were there anymore recent reasons for your concern at the
22 time? How did the other two sides behave?
23 A. As far as reasons for concern are concerned, and I stated that in
24 my previous statements, was that we needed to divide powers after the
25 multiparty elections. And later on, I concluded that the reason was that
1 the Muslims had already entrenched positions. The president of the
2 court -- [No interpretation]
3 JUDGE KWON: No, just --
4 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am really sorry. I tend to
6 forget myself. This is what I do all the time.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you explain to us who held which positions and how were the
9 powers to be distributed?
10 A. I explained it several times already.
11 Q. Take it easy and slowly. We are just wasting more time.
12 A. Please, check me when I start again. The misgivings were
13 strengthened by the fact that the representatives of the SDA were evasive
14 about this agreement on dividing powers because they already had
15 entrenched positions. A Muslim was the president of the court, the
16 public prosecutor, too, the chief of MUP, too, the commander of the
17 station, too. Chief of Territorial Defence, Muslim; national defence,
18 Muslims. So practically, apart from the JNA, the entire armed forces,
19 both the reserve force and the police, were controlled be the Muslims.
20 After the multiparty elections, there was supposed to be a
21 levelling in the personnel, a more equitable ratio. So when I came to be
22 the head of the party, I placed myself at the head of our delegation to
23 avoid having information from secondary sources, and we started talks
24 about the tax administration. And within two hours, we divided
25 50 per cent of all posts. That's what happens when everybody has good
1 will. However, the next day the representatives of the SDA reneged on
2 that agreement and stopped further talks. I suppose that's because the
3 talks were leading to a more equatable ratio in the senior posts and this
4 created misgivings among the Serbs. That's one of the reasons.
5 Q. Was there any organisation of paramilitaries in Prijedor, and how
6 is this connected with the staffing in the so-called security ministries
7 and et cetera?
8 A. There were no paramilitaries ever during the war in Prijedor. On
9 the other hand, I was very surprised when I heard that an acquaintance of
10 mine, Ecimovic, was the head of the Green Berets in Carakovo village.
11 Why I was I surprised? Because I used to know him. He was a handsome
12 man and we met each other in bars very often. He was rather fond of
13 Bohemian life. And I asked Dr. Esad Sadikovic to go and talk to him and
14 invite him to talk to me. I wanted to know what it's all about. And
15 Esad Sadikovic really went. He went to Carakovo, and he came back and
16 tells me -- can I say exactly in his words what he told me, as Esad told
17 it to me or shall I modify it a little?
18 Q. Choose your words yourself.
19 A. He said: "This fool, he has taken the 84 gun, holding it between
20 his knees, playing Rambo." I was shocked. However, through a
21 combination of circumstances, this same Ecimovic, after the attack of
22 Prijedor, which was captured, I met him in the barracks and I wanted to
23 know why he was acting that way. And he -- all he said was: I know you,
24 Miskovic. I suppose he was ashamed. And we had been together to Grace,
25 to some workshop before, and I thought I knew him really well so I was
1 really shocked by his new persona.
2 JUDGE KWON: If we are going to continue tomorrow, shall we
3 adjourn here for the day.
4 Mr. Miskovic, we continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. I'd like to
5 advise you -- I wanted to advise you to the not to discuss about your
6 testimony with anybody else.
7 Hearing is adjourned.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.57 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of
10 December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.