Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45414

 1                           Thursday, 19 December 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

10     morning to everybody.

11                           WITNESS:  SIMO MISKOVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Miskovic.

15        A.   Good morning, President.

16        Q.   Now I'm only getting sound.  It was turned down very low.

17     Yesterday you were asked about whether those people who were

18     interrogated, why they weren't tried.  Did you know how they were

19     released or how it is that they weren't tried?

20        A.   You know, from my testimonies so far and my statements, that I

21     had -- that I was not in a position of authority with regard to any of

22     these facilities.  However, according to what I heard from my colleagues,

23     they had interrogated all the people in Omarska.  And based on that

24     information, that is, the private conversations that I had, I learned

25     that during the interrogations it was established that there had been

Page 45415

 1     preparations for possible war, and that referred, first of all, to making

 2     stocks of food and medicines that were found in bunkers at Kozarac.  I

 3     didn't see that with my own eyes.  That's not first-hand information.

 4     Based on those conversations my comment was:  But how come that no

 5     criminal complaint was ever filed against them?  That was my private

 6     comment.  I wasn't present, as I said.  I don't know what happened.  But

 7     the last time I was here to testify about the same topic, the

 8     Zupljanin Defence said that criminal complaints were filed.  I don't

 9     know, as I said.  I played no part in that.  I repeat, I was wondering

10     how come that it didn't happen.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show 65 ter 20213

13     to the witness.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Please take a look at the document.

16        A.   Yes.  Just give me a moment.

17        Q.   If you read this text, it says that this was -- this is a pardon

18     of the 2nd of October, 1992, signed by Vojo Kupresanin on my behalf.  Can

19     you see the signature?

20        A.   Yes, I can see it.  It says Serbian Assembly of the Krajina.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know of any other cases of us having released

22     even hardened criminals, because we wanted to exchange them for Serbs?

23        A.   I don't know.  I was not informed --

24             JUDGE KWON:  [Previous translation continues]...

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- probably there were such cases.

Page 45416

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The question suggests that it has been

 2     established these people were criminals.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.  The Chamber is cognisant of this.

 4             You are not giving evidence, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I seek to tender this

 6     document.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit D4211, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us briefly show D2056.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Please take a look at these names.  Do you know them?  Are these

12     prominent people, these people that I pardoned in 1994?  Can you please

13     read what this decision is about.

14        A.   Decision on pardoning sentenced persons.  Article (a), the

15     sentenced Jusuf, son of Omer, Ramusevic, shall be released from serving a

16     prison sentence.

17        Q.   You don't need to read it all.

18        A.   I can see that there are people from our area, Seferovic,

19     Causevic, and others.  They must be from the Prijedor municipality, but I

20     don't remember anyone individual.

21        Q.   But you know that they had all been indicted and one of them was

22     convicted?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That was a leading question.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was not a question.  It was just

Page 45417

 1     a reply to the objection of the OTP that it has not been established that

 2     they were convicted.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  You are not giving evidence.  You did not follow the

 4     objection of Ms. Gustafson.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hardly wait to give evidence,

 6     believe me.  But since this is an exhibit already, I don't want to tender

 7     it.  I just want to show that these people were tried.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first thing I hear,

 9     that some people were convicted.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I don't follow this conversation.

13     You are -- let's continue.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour, but it is a perfect example

15     of the problem with leading because if the witness hadn't noted that

16     the --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  But it emphasises the point.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, we're familiar with my position with regard to

21     abiding by the law, and what was your attitude in that respect?

22        A.   My attitude was generally known in Prijedor, but your position

23     too, as I have already said in all my statements, that at the meetings

24     where I was present your position was the same:  Respect for the law, the

25     constitution, and other rules and regulations.

Page 45418

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2        A.   The similar example is the -- our phone conversation after the

 3     referendum which was intercepted and was shown here in this court.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us show 65 ter 32661.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   The 15th of November.  When did our referendum take place, the

 7     plebiscite?

 8        A.   I don't remember.  I think it was after the one about the

 9     secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina conducted by the Muslims and Croats.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need the fourth page in English

11     and in Serbian it may be the third.  Could we get the right page in

12     Serbian.  Let's see.  No, it's not this one.  I'm going to read from the

13     English.  It seems that we can't find it -- or maybe this is it.  I guess

14     this is it.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please focus your attention where I say:  "Good, excellent, you

17     thought well ..." Do read it and especially the part under that.  You

18     don't have to read it out aloud.  Just tell me what this is about.

19             Thank you.  Take a look at this.  Let us see precisely -- this is

20     to see exactly how to do it in a legal way, this part I mean.  And it

21     also says to see how to do it legally and then proceed with it --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The relevant section seems

23     to be on another page.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   How does this tally with your experience about our insisting on

Page 45419

 1     law and order?

 2        A.   In this intercept you pointed out to me that I should contact

 3     Simovic and see to it that everything is done in a legal manner, but I

 4     never met him so that it remained an open issue.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember what this "it" was you were talking

 8     about, do it legally, in a legal way?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the referendum, the

10     referendum about remaining in Yugoslavia.

11             JUDGE KWON:  And you confirm that you had a telephone

12     conversation like this with Mr. Karadzic at the time?  So this was you?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is me.  We already dealt

14     with this at the trial of Stojan Zupljanin, the very same document, and

15     it was identified that it was me.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit D4212, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Yesterday item 6 from your minutes was the topic of a question, a

21     clear policy toward the non-Serb population should be defined.  What was

22     my position and the position of the party, bodies of the SDS, with regard

23     to non-Serbs?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could get a reference.  I don't recall any

Page 45420

 1     questions about an item 6 about a policy toward non-Serb population

 2     yesterday.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we get -- I believe it was

 4     admitted but I have a 65 ter number, 25720 is the number.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P6592, proposal.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I believe so,

 7     Mr. Miskovic's proposal, proposed measures.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I did ask about the proposal, but I did not ask

 9     about point 6, about the policy toward non-Serb population.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Well --

11             JUDGE KWON:  It's contained in the proposal.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  That [overlapping speakers] --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let us hear the question.

14             I interrupted you, Mr. Robinson, would you like to add anything?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  I was just going to say that would be really

16     unfair to omit a point of a document and then preclude the other party

17     from asking about it.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This is the

20     accompanying text, an excerpt from the minutes.  And what I need is on

21     page 3 in English and in Serbian.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   In your experience, what was our policy towards non-Serbs?

24        A.   The general policy of the SDS and consequently the policy of the

25     SDS in Prijedor was in favour of peaceful solutions in every field, and

Page 45421

 1     to that purpose it was our policy to conduct talks and negotiations in

 2     keeping with election results, and that's what we did all the time.  You

 3     saw from my evidence yesterday and before that maximum efforts were made

 4     to avoid confrontation and conflict.  The best confirmation that we were

 5     right is that Montenegro, which remained within the Federation at the

 6     time, later seceded, separated, itself from Yugoslavia peacefully and

 7     democratically.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D29 --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, if you are moving away from this

10     document.  Solution, peaceful solution is one thing.  Policy towards

11     non-Serbian population may be another.  What did you have in mind when

12     you wrote this item number 6?  Could you read it out?  I'll read it:

13             "To establish a general and unified policy towards the

14     non-Serbian population."

15             So what did you have in mind when you wrote "a general and

16     unified policy"?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll explain.  I said yesterday

18     that Prijedor was an exception because there was not a single excess on

19     our territory against the Croat or the Muslim population, because we had

20     this agreement and -- however, there were incidents in other

21     municipalities of businesses being destroyed, et cetera.  This had not

22     happened in our municipality and that's why we wanted a general policy

23     established to maintain that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             Please speak slowly.  Yes, ask your question again, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 45422

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This document is dated 1st October, 1992.  Can you tell us about

 3     all the things that happened before this date when this platform was

 4     endorsed?

 5        A.   In what sense?  Could you be more specific.

 6        Q.   Were there any war time conflicts?

 7        A.   I told you yesterday about the murder of that policeman, then the

 8     killing of those soldiers who were coming back from the war in Slavonia.

 9     They were ambushed at Hambarine.  Then there was another roadblock of the

10     Prijedor-Banja Luka road, although we had had an agreement about leaving

11     all the communications open.  And after that, there indeed was

12     confrontation and conflict.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D2910.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Could you tell us what this is about?

16        A.   Ensure full protection for non-Serb population.  This is

17     Karadzic's order to municipal authorities in mid-1994.  This is about

18     municipal authorities.  And I was not part of that in 1994, I was not

19     even head of the party because I had withdrawn in August 1993, so I don't

20     know about this document.

21        Q.   And do you know whether this position that I took is consistent

22     with our general policy of protection for minorities?

23        A.   Yes, this is consistent with the general attitude to non-Serb

24     population that I discussed before.  I can repeat if necessary.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 45423

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit D4213, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You were asked about discipline in the implementation of party

 8     decisions.  Can you tell us which ideologies threatened at that time to

 9     be sneaked in as SDS policies?  Which policies were risky?

10        A.   I said it yesterday, but I'll repeat.  Those were reformists and

11     socialist forces, a legacy of the period before the multi-party

12     elections.

13        Q.   In what forms were they active and through which institutions?

14        A.   They were represented in the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor and

15     in the parliament legally.

16        Q.   What was the ideology of JNA officers?

17        A.   They were special.  They were very attached to the ideology of

18     the previous regime, and they found it very hard to abandon it.  They

19     were really indoctrinated by the League of Communists.

20        Q.   You were asked about the meeting of 23rd April, 1992, and

21     generally our attitude to the JNA.  You said the people where are

22     concerned because young Serb men were in the JNA, whereas the Croats and

23     Muslims were not.  Tell us, what exactly was your concern regarding the

24     fact that young Serb men were not in their homes, whereas the Muslims and

25     Croats were?

Page 45424

 1        A.   In 1991, a general mobilisation was declared by the competent

 2     institutions, so that I, too, was mobilised in 1992 as the reserve police

 3     commander of the police station in Urije.  The army conscripts were also

 4     mobilised, according to their military specialty, and sent to the theatre

 5     of war in Slavonia.

 6        Q.   Could you speak slowly, please.

 7        A.   They were being sent to the war zone in Slavonia, in Croatia.

 8     All the Serbs responded to the call-up; however, due to the Muslim

 9     propaganda and the propaganda of the Croat HDZ, who were appealing to

10     their young men not to respond, very few Muslims and Croats responded to

11     the mobilisation.  And our area was empty of Serb military conscripts,

12     whereas all the Muslim and Croat young men stayed at home.  So the people

13     were concerned and exerted great pressure on us, the politicians and the

14     army, to do something about it.  It's all a consequence of the

15     experiences and memories from World War II, when all the able-bodied men

16     who had stayed at home ended up in camps in Croatia, in Jasenovac.

17        Q.   If I'm not mistaken, you said there was pressure on you,

18     politicians, and the army.  Why you are taking their young men and

19     leaving them without protection.  That was not recorded.  Is that what

20     you said?  What was the pressure about?

21        A.   I said a moment ago because all the -- the people were exerting

22     pressure because all the young Serbs over 18 were taken by the JNA and

23     sent to the war in Slavonia.  So as far as the Serbs were concerned, the

24     homes were empty.  However, because the Muslims and Croats did not

25     respond to the call-up, their young men stayed at home, which left the

Page 45425

 1     Serb population without protection and vulnerable to organised attacks by

 2     Muslims and Croats, conditionally speaking.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Miskovic.  I have no further questions.  Thank you

 4     for coming.

 5        A.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             That concludes your evidence, Mr. Miskovic.  On behalf of the

 8     Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

 9     it.  You are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm happy if I made the

11     smallest contribution to establishing the truth.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is seized of the motion of Ratko Mladic

14     for certification to appeal decisions of 11th of December, 2013, by

15     Karadzic Chamber, which was filed yesterday.  So I wonder whether the

16     parties are ready to respond to this orally today?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we filed a written response this

18     morning and the response is that we don't object to the certification

19     application but that Dr. Karadzic wishes to be the last witness at his

20     trial.  So we wanted you to take that into consideration in deciding the

21     motion.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not ready to respond in full orally at this

24     moment --

25             JUDGE KWON:  But then --

Page 45426

 1             MR. TIEGER:  -- but we will support the certification.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes?  Could you file a written response by close

 3     of business tomorrow?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, we will do that, Mr. President.  And as long as

 5     I'm on my feet, I don't want to pre-empt if the Court had other matters

 6     to discuss, but there's one other matter I wanted to raise before we

 7     adjourned.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  By all means.  Yes, please.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

10             In keeping with our previous practice, Mr. Robinson and I met to

11     discuss certain aspects of scheduling during the holiday period, and as

12     we had done before we agree that a -- an extremely flexible regime should

13     be adopted for what would otherwise be dead-lines for motions that need

14     to be filed during this period of time.  So we recognise that there may

15     be certain motions for which there are specific and identifiable time

16     sensitivities, the Court just raised one, for example.  But barring that,

17     it's our joint position that the dead-lines should be extremely flexible,

18     in keeping with the limited staffing during this period.

19             In particular, I might mention that the motion filed by the

20     accused yesterday with respect to disclosure was one we would not be in a

21     position to respond to without extraordinary measures until, for example,

22     about January 13th.  That's agreed.  That general policy is the -- was

23     what Mr. Robinson and I discussed and agreed to.  I wanted to mention it

24     to the Court and hope that the Court would endorse that as well.

25             JUDGE KWON:  While the Chamber tends to agree in general -- do

Page 45427

 1     you like the Chamber to take specific actions in that regard?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I wouldn't -- I wouldn't think that was necessary,

 3     Mr. President.  I tried to articulate it in a way that I thought would

 4     involve the least amount of specific intervention.  So the idea would be

 5     barring some specific indication by one of the parties or by the Bench,

 6     that that particular matter falls outside this general approach, that

 7     whenever the responses to motions were filed would be fine.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  I think it's a polite way of asking us to keep

 9     quiet.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Far be it for me to argue with the Court.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  That's endorsed, Mr. Tieger.

13             I wonder whether there's any other matters to raise?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, only on our behalf to thank the

15     staff and the Chamber for all of its hard work this year to make this

16     trial go smoothly.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED:  I would like to express my best wishes for the

19     forthcoming holidays for all of participants.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I wish everyone a very nice holiday and a happy

21     new year.

22             The hearing is adjourned.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.38 a.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of

25                           January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.