Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45571

1 Monday, 20 January 2014

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.

7 Could the witness make the solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Kvocka. Please be seated and make

13 yourself --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Kvocka, before you commence your evidence,

16 I must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have

17 here at the international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E). Under this

18 rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the

19 Prosecutor, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might

20 incriminate you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate"

21 means saying something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a

22 criminal offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you

23 might have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that

24 an answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

25 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

Page 45572

1 compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal

2 would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

3 not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

4 save and except the offence of giving the false testimony. Do you

5 understand that, Mr. Kvocka?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I understand.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

8 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please proceed.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, your Excellencies.

10 Good morning to all.

11 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kvocka.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. I have to ask you, as I ask all witnesses, and I have to remind

15 myself, actually, to speak slowly so that everything can be recorded and

16 interpreted. And we should also pause between questions and answers.

17 Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21 in e-court 1D9688.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. On the screen before you on the left-hand side, you can see the

24 Serb version. Do you see that statement of yours?

25 A. Yes, yes, I do.

Page 45573

1 Q. Thank you. Have you read and signed this statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last page please be shown

4 so the witness could identify his signature.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Is that your signature?

7 A. That's my signature.

8 Q. Thank you. Did this statement faithfully reflect what you said

9 to the Defence team or are there some inaccuracies there that should be

10 corrected?

11 A. As far as I know, there is nothing to be corrected. Everything

12 was recorded as I had put it.

13 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today, the

14 same as those put to you by my Defence team, would your answers basically

15 be the same like those contained in this statement?

16 A. Yes, the essence would certainly be the same.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this statement

19 into evidence according to Rule 92 ter.

20 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, do you have any objection?

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours. No, I don't.

22 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4219, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 45574

1 Now I'm going to read out in the English language a brief summary

2 of Mr. Miroslav Kvocka's testimony.

3 [In English] Miroslav Kvocka started working as a policeman in

4 Omarska in 1981, and he performed the duty of patrol sector leader.

5 When the MUP was divided at the level of BH, the Muslim policemen

6 left the Omarska police squad. The Muslim population had his own army,

7 which was called the Green Berets. The Serbs took over the power in

8 Prijedor on 30th of April, 1992. Several days after the take-over,

9 barricades and check-points started appearing, so that the Serbs had

10 restricted or no access to the Muslim villages and vice versa. In

11 addition, check-points were also established by the military and civilian

12 police, which were ethnically mixed.

13 There were incidents at the check-point in the Muslim village of

14 Hambarine, where several JNA soldiers were killed and wounded. Since the

15 leadership in Hambarine refused to hand over the persons responsible, the

16 army and the police launched combat operation which lasted for a couple

17 of days. Several days later, another ultimatum was leveled against

18 Kozarac, when the armed formations in the village were called on to

19 surrender their weapons. Since the Muslim leadership refused to comply,

20 a military operation ensued.

21 Mr. Kvocka first arrived at the Omarska collect and investigation

22 centre in the last days of May 1992. The duty of the policemen at the

23 Omarska camp was to prevent detainees from escaping or being attacked by

24 third persons. The detainees were not threatened from the inside and the

25 guards would -- and must not physically -- and the guards would and must

Page 45575

1 not physically attack a detained -- detained persons. Zeljko Mejakic,

2 the police squad commander, issued specific instructions not to mistreat

3 detainees and to have as little contact with them as possible. A certain

4 number of disciplinary measures were taken against individuals belonging

5 to Mr. Kvocka's police station. Nonetheless, if any of the guards

6 participated in the incidents, this was hidden especially from Mejakic.

7 Omarska was not surrounded by any wire or fence and the terrain

8 around it was not mined. Two or three days after the work at the Omarska

9 camp began, food started being distributed to the prisoners on a daily

10 basis. There were occasions when Mr. Kvocka himself brought cars full of

11 sandwiches which he would publicly distribute to the detainees. No one

12 ever started any kind of procedure against him for distributing food, nor

13 was he forbidden to help the Muslims by the authorities.

14 On 30th of May, 1992, new buses with detainees arrived at the

15 Omarska camp. In the camp, there were altogether between 15 and 18 women

16 who were considered detainees. Their accommodation and living conditions

17 were better and they were allowed to work in the kitchen. Also, some

18 people of the Serb ethnicity accused for arms smuggling were detained at

19 the Omarska.

20 During the first period of existence of the Omarska camp, several

21 members of the special police from Banja Luka were there. There were

22 problems with the unit because they roamed around the centre and there

23 was talk of them mistreating people and seizing money and jewelry.

24 Mejakic would not issue any order to the leader of this group, but

25 managed to remove the unit from Omarska in mid-June 1992. After they

Page 45576

1 left, the situation in the centre improved drastically.

2 All the detainees were questioned by investigators in order to

3 establish who had participated in the armed rebellion or in its

4 organisation, armament, and financing. The investigators could not issue

5 order to Mejakic, nor could they receive orders from him. Sometimes,

6 investigators could raise their voices during the interrogation, but

7 Mr. Kvocka never saw force being used against the people who were being

8 questioned. The detention would end when the investigation was completed

9 and the suspect cleared of all charges.

10 Mr. Kvocka never assisted to a single murder at the Omarska camp,

11 although he heard rumours that some of the detainees were mistreated.

12 When he had just arrived at the centre, he saw three or four bodies of

13 prisoners who were shot while trying to escape. Furthermore, he was

14 present when, on 31st of May, 1992, a man managed to enter the centre and

15 opened fire on the detainees getting off a bus, in an attempt to

16 vindicate his brother killed by the Muslims.

17 Mr. Kvocka tried to protect his Muslim acquaintances and his

18 wife's brothers.

19 And that is summary of the statement of Mr. Kvocka. At that

20 moment, I do not have additional questions for him.

21 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

22 Mr. Kvocka, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this

23 case has been admitted in writing; that is, through your written witness

24 statement. Now, you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

25 Office of the Prosecutor.

Page 45577

1 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

2 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland

3 Q. Mr. Kvocka, is that a copy of the B/C/S statement that you have

4 in front of you?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. You've come here to testify about your role in the operation of

7 the Omarska camp in 1992. In that regard, you were tried and convicted

8 in 2001 by a Trial Chamber in this Tribunal of crimes committed in 1992

9 against non-Serbs in the Omarska camp; correct?

10 A. Yes, yes, that is what is written in the judgement.

11 Q. And you were convicted of crimes against humanity in violations

12 of the laws or customs of war and sentenced to a term of imprisonment of

13 seven years; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Specifically, you were found guilty of count 1, persecution for

16 burden, torture, and beating, sexual assault and rape, harassment,

17 humiliation and psychological abuse, and confinement in conditions as a

18 crime against humanity; count 5, murder as a violation of the laws and

19 customs of war; and count 9, torture as a violation of the laws and

20 customs of war; correct? That was the Trial Chamber's finding.

21 A. Yes, for the most part. Except that I think that during the

22 appeal I think that some of these counts were overruled, I think. It's

23 been a long time. But there weren't any sexual crimes while I was there

24 at the detention centre, and then there were some murders that were also

25 no longer there. That is how I seem to remember the appeals judgement.

Page 45578

1 Q. Yes, on appeal the Appeals Chamber reversed your convictions in

2 two respects. Regarding two of the four murders you were convicted of

3 and regarding the rape and sexual assault conviction, they said that

4 there was no evidence in that regard in relation to linking it to you,

5 but affirmed your sentence of seven years. That's your recollection of

6 the Appeals Chamber's judgement, yes?

7 A. Yes, yes, precisely. That's what was stated, that the sentence

8 itself was not affected by the fact that those crimes were no longer

9 there.

10 Q. And the Trial Chamber found at paragraph 372 that you

11 participated in the operation of the camp as the functional equivalent of

12 a deputy commander of the guards service and that you had some degree of

13 authority over the guards, yes? That was the finding of the Chamber.

14 A. That is what is written in the judgement.

15 Q. You were interviewed by a representative of the Office of the

16 Prosecutor on the 24th and 25th of June, 1998. Do you stand by the

17 answers you gave during that interview?

18 A. Yes, for the most part, if they were all faithfully transmitted

19 and properly translated, understood. I think that most of it was. There

20 were a few things that were unclear, though, and that was discussed

21 during my trial.

22 Q. Before we get into the substance of your witness statement, I

23 just want to clarify a matter. And if you can turn to paragraph 9 of

24 your statement, that's now Exhibit P4219, you said that after a change in

25 authorities in Prijedor, Drljaca, the head of the uniformed police became

Page 45579

1 chief of the SJB? That's incorrect, isn't it, because Drljaca was not

2 the head of the uniformed police prior to taking over as chief of the

3 Prijedor SJB? That's right, isn't it? He was not the head of the

4 uniformed police prior to becoming the chief of the Prijedor public

5 security station?

6 A. Yes, yes. I understand the question. Everything is correctly

7 stated here in this paragraph 9, except that perhaps you're reading it in

8 a different way. Simo Drljaca became the head of the police after the

9 change of the authorities in Prijedor, and then there is a comma, and it

10 says that the second in command was then Dusko Jankovic, and

11 Milutin Caje [phoen] was commander of the Prijedor 1 police station. So

12 this paragraph faithfully reflects what was stated and what is correct

13 anyway.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance. The

15 translation of this document is not correct and that is what misled

16 Madam Sutherland. So the translation of the statement is not exactly

17 correct. That paragraph, 9, perhaps it would be a good thing if it were

18 to be read out and if our interpreters were to interpret it.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic, but I think Mr. Kvocka

20 has already read out what he has -- what he says is in the B/C/S.

21 Q. You said that -- Mr. Kvocka, you said that Simo Drljaca was chief

22 of Prijedor police station number 1. The commander of Prijedor police

23 station 2 was Zivko Knezevic, was he not?

24 A. Knezevic, yes.

25 Q. And he reported to Simo Drljaca, yes?

Page 45580

1 A. Probably. It would go without saying but these are higher

2 stances in terms of my job, but according to the rules that's the way it

3 should be.

4 Q. In paragraph 38 of your statement, you say that Drljaca issued an

5 order that the Omarska investigation centre, that is, the Omarska camp,

6 was to be secured by members of the Omarska police squad.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if I could have Exhibit P02640, please.

8 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you've seen this document before, the one that will

9 come up on your screen. It's the order signed by Drljaca dated the

10 31st of May, 1992. You were shown this document in your trial. And if

11 we could go to the last page, please. You testified that the signatures

12 that we can see on that last page down below the stamp were signatures of

13 the individuals who received this order on behalf of the security

14 services, and that was Djoko Mejakic at number 1 and Dusan Jankovic at

15 number 2; correct?

16 A. Yes, yes, these are persons who received this document for Mico

17 and for this mine, iron, ore mine, and then the public security station

18 Srljeko [phoen] received this on behalf of security.

19 Q. This Dusan Jankovic is the same person that you refer to in

20 paragraph 21 of your statement when discussing the start of operations at

21 the Omarska camp. He was the person who ordered you to go there, yes?

22 A. Yes, yes, it's one and the same person.

23 Q. So you mention being in Omarska at the commencement of operations

24 around the 28th of May. Serb documentation, and that Exhibit D00470, the

25 Banja Luka commission report dated August 1992, refers to detainees being

Page 45581

1 transferred from Keraterm to Omarska camp on the 27th of May, 1992. Do

2 you accept the likelihood that you're a day or two out with your dates as

3 to when you commenced work at the Omarska camp?

4 A. I accept that. I think that when I testified in my own trial, I

5 said that I cannot recall the exact day but that it is around the

6 28th of August -- no, the 28th of April or a day before that or a day

7 after that.

8 Q. May.

9 A. May, yes.

10 Q. And Mejakic was at the camp every day, sometimes absent for a few

11 hours, and would very often spend the night in the centre. That's what

12 you said when you testified at your trial, didn't you?

13 A. Yes, he spent some time there and sometimes I would be there

14 during the night, sometimes during the day.

15 Q. In paragraph --

16 A. Sorry, for the most part, we tried to make sure that one of us

17 was there all the time so that we could help resolve possible problems on

18 the basis of our experience.

19 Q. You said in paragraph 25 of your statement that Mejakic appointed

20 three men to work duty shifts, and that's Mladen Radic, otherwise known

21 as Mladjo; Momcilo Gruban, also known as Cekalija; and Milojica Kos, also

22 known as Krle. And these people were the go-between, for want of a

23 better word, between Mejakic, yourself and the guards on each of these

24 three shifts; correct?

25 A. Well, yes, according to the rules that were in force then, there

Page 45582

1 was this so-called duty officer per shift who tried to be there in one

2 room and, well, yes, to be some kind of go-between too - you can put it

3 that way as well - to help see people resolve problems, and that is why

4 people with more experience and a higher rating were sought for that job

5 among the members of the reserve police.

6 Q. Well, Mladjo Radic was an active duty policeman, wasn't he?

7 A. Yes, yes. With long years of experience.

8 Q. And they also, these three, walked around the camp. They didn't

9 have a specific guard post, did they?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. During the time -- sorry. During the time that you worked at the

12 camp, you estimated that there were approximately 2.500 people in the

13 camp, yes?

14 A. Yes, approximately. That's what I said then and I believe that's

15 how it was. I mean, the total number of people that went through the

16 camp, because there was constant coming and going. It's a rough figure

17 because there were no precise records that we could consult now.

18 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you said in your testimony and in your record of

19 interview, that there were approximately 2.500 people in the camp. Now,

20 you also said that there was between 100 and 120 people that were

21 released, and they were the only people to your knowledge that were

22 released apart from one or two odd people that were taken in a van at the

23 end of the day by the interrogators, and they were taken out of the camp.

24 So this figure of 2.500 was the number of people that you say was in the

25 Omarska camp over the duration of the -- at the time that you were there,

Page 45583

1 and that was up until the 23rd of June; right?

2 A. Yes, you could say that.

3 Q. You saw two very large groups of people brought to the camp on

4 buses, yes? In -- in two different -- two different large groups of

5 people.

6 A. Yes, I was present when people were brought in at the beginning.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. The very early days.

9 Q. And the first group was the first time you went to the camp after

10 being ordered by Jankovic to go to camp, and then the second large group

11 was in the afternoon of the day Prijedor town was attacked on the

12 30th of May and also possibly the following day; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And detainees were brought to the camp on city buses or intercity

15 buses from Autotransport Prijedor for the most part, weren't they? I

16 mean, most of the buses were from Autotransport Prijedor.

17 A. Yes, that was the only forwarding company, the only passenger

18 transport company that existed in Prijedor at the time.

19 Q. Persons escorting the buses were both from the military and the

20 police; correct?

21 A. Yes, there was an escort provided by both the military police and

22 the so-called civilian police, the town police.

23 Q. In paragraph 64 of your statement, you said that you witnessed

24 detainees being made to pass through a gauntlet of military police when

25 they were taken from the buses and they were forced to sing songs and

Page 45584

1 slap each other, yes?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. That happened once, when a group was

3 brought.

4 Q. And --

5 A. It was not a large number of people.

6 Q. And you also witnessed with this group the detainees being beaten

7 by the police and other escorts, didn't you?

8 A. Yes, that happened. That's what I was about to say. When people

9 were brought in who had been captured in the forest, there was a group of

10 two or three policemen, and as these people were getting out, the

11 policemen forced them to slap each other. It lasted about 20, 30 seconds

12 until they got in. It was very close to the building, so that gauntlet

13 could not be more than 2 or 3 metres. These people had been caught in

14 the forests at Kozara.

15 Q. You also witnessed one incident where four or five people were

16 brought in, and these people were actually brought from the Prijedor SUP,

17 the Prijedor police station. And the policemen who accepted these

18 persons were very rough in conducting the search. You witnessed the

19 police kicking with their feet and hitting with an arm and slapping these

20 persons, and one of these persons was Nusret Sivac, you recall that don't

21 you?

22 A. Nusret Sivac.

23 Q. Yes, you remember when he was brought into the camp, that he --

24 the -- the -- the guards that accepted these people were kicking them

25 with their feet and hitting with their arms and slapping these people?

Page 45585

1 A. Yes, you've reminded me. And it's in my statement, that several

2 people were brought in. I remember Nusret Sivac because he had also been

3 a member of the interior. And perhaps out of some feelings of revolt

4 against him, somebody wanted to beat him and kick him, and I tried to

5 protect him.

6 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you say that your wife's brothers, Rizak, Nedzad, and

7 Adnan Crnalic, you say you saw them when they were brought to the camp in

8 the afternoon of 31st of May, 1992. And in paragraph 67 of your

9 statement, you say that you took them aside and some ten minutes later

10 got them into an official vehicle and drove them to your family home in

11 the village of Omarska. We are talking here about the family house of

12 your parents in the centre of Omarska, yes?

13 A. Yes, that's correct. It's Adnan, Rizak, and Nedzad Crnalic. It

14 is misspelled here. They were brought in, but I immediately took them

15 out and drove them to my family home.

16 Q. Now, they were brought there -- they were brought there en masse

17 in buses with a large number of other non-Serb civilians, weren't they?

18 A. Yes. It was that day when the attack happened and that evening,

19 the evening of the day of the attack on Prijedor, two or three buses

20 arrived, and in one of the buses they were too.

21 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you omitted to say in your statement why you took

22 them out of the camp. You took them out because you were concerned for

23 their welfare, yes?

24 A. It was a semiconscious act. I separated them --

25 Q. Mr. Kvocka, I'm sorry to interrupt you. My question is simply

Page 45586

1 you were concerned for their welfare, yes? I don't want a more lengthy

2 answer.

3 A. Correct. Right. But we can discuss in what terms I was

4 concerned.

5 Q. Yes. You -- you could tell already at that early stage that the

6 conditions under which the prisoners were housed were bad; correct?

7 A. I can say the conditions were not good, probably.

8 Q. Well, when you were interviewed by the OTP, do you recall saying

9 that when you were asked to give some concrete examples about the bad

10 conditions, when you were discussing this, you said that the rooms were

11 too small for the number of people, there was no bedding for the

12 detainees to lie on, that there were more people than the capacity of the

13 toilets, and that there were queues and blockages. Do you recall saying

14 that?

15 A. Well, perhaps some of these words are not exact. I don't

16 remember saying anything about queues and blockages, but I said that

17 conditions were not great because there were more people than space

18 allowed. There were fewer toilet facilities than necessary for that

19 number of people, the access to water was a bit difficult; meaning, that

20 one had to wait a while to get water. That's what I meant. In any case,

21 the conditions were not commendable.

22 Q. You were also concerned that something bad would happen to them

23 due to incidents that had already occurred in the camp, and you supposed

24 that something similar may happen to them, yes?

25 A. Yes, precisely. And it was my moral duty, if I can't protect

Page 45587

1 everyone and do something for everyone, to do at least something for

2 them. But I did not spare them from the interrogation and some

3 investigative procedures. They were not spared from that. They were

4 just taken to be in my family home where they would feel a little better.

5 In view of the food shortages, they didn't live so well at my home either

6 but it was a little better, yes.

7 Q. Mr. Kvocka, just in relation to that, you said that they weren't

8 spared interrogation, but isn't it right that you actually selected

9 people to interrogate them that you thought would treat them well?

10 That's right, isn't it?

11 A. Yes, I didn't specially select any people to interrogate them. I

12 just noticed that these people were available, free, and I knew them from

13 earlier in the service. When you are doing something, you try to choose

14 somebody you know.

15 Q. In paragraph 71 of your statement, you say that Dusan Jankovic

16 ordered you to return your three brother-in-laws to Omarska camp, and

17 that Jankovic told you that you were no longer to work at the camp and

18 that you had to go and work at the Jukovi police station, yes? Correct?

19 A. Yes, correct.

20 Q. You said that, also in paragraph 71, that when you took them back

21 to the camp, you found Gruban and asked him -- Gruban being

22 Momcilo Gruban, one of the shift leaders or duty officers, as you like to

23 call them, and you asked him to take care of them; correct?

24 A. Yes, yes, that's true too.

25 Q. In fact, the three men were put in the area known as the glass

Page 45588

1 house on the ground floor of the administration building, yes?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And during your interview with the OTP when you were asked

4 whether you had asked for them to be put into the glass house, you

5 replied that you didn't know what you said exactly but that you told

6 Gruban and also Milica Kos to look after them. You said that you knew

7 that you were leaving the centre, as you called it, so you just asked

8 them to look after them and that "we'd know what that means." Do you

9 recall saying that in your interview?

10 A. Yes, I remember saying that, but I don't remember this particular

11 sentence. I recall, however, that I did ask these people to keep an eye

12 on them, to look after them a little, which is only human, and it's

13 probably they who chose to place them there because that's where they

14 could more easily keep an eye on them.

15 Q. Well, it was your impression that the glass house was the safest

16 room and the one with the best conditions, yes?

17 A. Perhaps there were not so many people there, but it was a small

18 space. But the main thing was that it was visible. It was always in the

19 field of vision. It was constantly supervised. So from the point of

20 view of supervision, you could say that people were safer there.

21 Q. And you didn't want them to be physically assaulted or, worses,

22 to die from horrific beatings which were being inflicted upon detainees,

23 did you?

24 A. That's correct. I didn't want anyone to be physically assaulted,

25 and I dedicated my entire work there to that end. And I even had several

Page 45589

1 clashes with some policemen about that.

2 Q. And when you testified at your trial, you said that when you were

3 asked -- when you asked them to keep an eye on your brother-in-laws so

4 that something stupid wouldn't happen, and when you were asked to

5 elaborate on what this meant, you said, Well, it could be beatings. It

6 could even be killings. And you testified that you had heard that there

7 were guards who were inclined to beat and that this was your source of

8 concern. Do you recall saying that when you testified?

9 A. Yes, yes. That's exactly what I said a moment ago. I had

10 several clashes with policemen, the newly inducted reserve policemen who

11 did not really like me that much because I wanted that work to be done

12 professionally, and such policemen - and there were two or three of

13 them - they had a grudge against me. And it was only logical for me to

14 assume that they could take their revenge on my relatives and other

15 people whom I wholeheartedly tried to help, and I had verbal clashes with

16 these men.

17 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in paragraph 57 of your statement you say, "I'm not

18 aware that Zigic entered the centre," and we're talking about the Omarska

19 camp here. As you sit here today, you know full well that he entered the

20 camp and committed heinous crimes against the detainees. You sat through

21 your trial and heard numerous witnesses testifying about crimes committed

22 by Zigic and others who came to the camp with him, and you also knew back

23 then in 1992 when you had to take your three brother-in-laws back to the

24 camp, didn't you?

25 A. That's not right. I did hear a lot during various testimonies

Page 45590

1 here. But while I was at Omarska, and you know that it was only 20 days,

2 including various absences, you know about that from my trial, so

3 actively I worked practically for 12 days. And during that time, I

4 guarantee - and I can repeat now - that Zigic did not come to the camp,

5 and I didn't even hear that he had come to the camp during my absences.

6 You know that I worked there only for a short time, a very little number

7 of days, and during that time Zigic did not visit the camp. But I did

8 hear here at the Tribunal that many people claimed that he did come to

9 the camp.

10 Q. During the time that you were there?

11 A. Yes, yes, during that time. I maintain that I never saw him

12 come.

13 Q. And quibbling over the number of days, I think it was found in

14 your trial that you were there for 17 days, not 12 days - correct? - in

15 total.

16 A. I agree. I agree. In total. But I mention that I was on sick

17 leave for three days, I also got two days off to deal with some of my

18 problems, so I practically worked less. But I accept 17 days.

19 Q. You -- well, you were there for 17 days, up until the

20 23rd of June, you worked. Taking off the days that you had off in the

21 early June and in mid-June, that left a total of 17 days, which I think

22 you've now agreed; correct?

23 A. Correct. That's what the Trial Chamber found, and I accept it.

24 I'm just saying that there were a few days less because when I spent one

25 day off, I would not work the next day at the centre. If you take into

Page 45591

1 account the way the shifts worked, I did not work for three days when I

2 was sick and plus Zeljko gave me two days off to deal with some personal

3 matters.

4 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

5 A. But it's not a problem, let it be 17 days.

6 Q. Detainees were being abused by some of the camp guards and from

7 persons coming in from outside from early on in the operation of the

8 camp; correct?

9 A. Yes, there were certain incidents. We can recall them.

10 Q. You said that when you were interviewed, that after a few days --

11 after incidents involving visitors from outside coming into the camp and

12 abusing the detainees, that after a few days a unit came to help. And

13 there was talk that these were members of the special police from

14 Banja Luka. And that these men came from Banja Luka five to ten days

15 after the operation of the camp. You recall saying that?

16 A. Yes, yes. I remember.

17 Q. And that's right, isn't it?

18 A. Yes, for the most part.

19 Q. In your statement at paragraph 58, you state that you never saw a

20 single murder. You go on to say that when you arrived at Omarska for the

21 first time, you saw three or four dead bodies. You, in fact, saw these

22 bodies when you returned back to the Omarska camp on that first day in

23 daylight around 8.00 a.m.; correct?

24 A. Yes, correct, because the first time I came was by night. You

25 couldn't see anything around that time. And at around 8.00 you took over

Page 45592

1 the guard duty.

2 Q. And the only thing you saw were between nine and 12 buses -

3 that's right? - some were full of detainees and others were empty?

4 A. Yes, that night --

5 Q. Now --

6 A. -- when the prisoners were brought in.

7 Q. Yes. These bodies that you saw, these three to four bodies, were

8 taken away two days later in a small yellow TAM truck; correct?

9 A. Yes, correct. It was said that an onsite investigation has to be

10 conducted, but the standard, proper onsite investigation was indeed never

11 done, probably because of the overall situation in the municipality.

12 Q. In paragraph 24 of your statement, the last sentence, you say

13 that during your work in the centre, you spent almost half the time in

14 the office and the other half outdoors. But this -- this half-time

15 business was only in relation to the first two days you spent in Omarska,

16 yes?

17 A. I think, roughly speaking, I spent half of the time in that

18 office upstairs where there were several typists and Zeljko and some

19 other people who were on duty in the same shift and some people who were

20 taking statements and giving them to the typists to type up.

21 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

22 A. So speaking of the overall, the total time I spent --

23 Q. -- can you just finish your sentence? I'm sorry for interrupting

24 you. You said:

25 "So speaking of the overall, the total time I spent ..."

Page 45593

1 You're saying it's half and half?

2 A. Yes, that's what I want to say.

3 Q. And just --

4 A. Out of those 17 days that I worked, as you said, out of all of it

5 half of the time I was outdoors and half of the time, roughly speaking,

6 in the office. Not only those first two, three days.

7 Q. Well, just let me remind you of what you testified to. You said

8 that you spent 16 to 17 hours in the investigation centre during the

9 first two days, and out of that half the time in the office. Do you

10 recall saying that when you testified?

11 A. It's possible that I said that --

12 Q. Now --

13 A. That's also correct.

14 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

15 A. Those days and all the other days I spent half of the time

16 outdoors, half in the office.

17 Q. Well, for the rest of the time in the camp, you told Mr. Reid in

18 your OTP interview that of the 12-hour shift, you usually spent between

19 one to two hours in the office and around 10 or 11 hours outside. Do you

20 remember saying that?

21 A. Well, I don't remember saying it so definitely. Even if I did, I

22 don't remember.

23 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

24 A. I can only --

25 Q. [Overlapping speakers] When -- when -- when it was put back to

Page 45594

1 you, you said earlier you would be outside for approximately maybe

2 10 hours of your shift, outside the office. You said:

3 "Yes, one could say that. We don't have to be so precise.

4 Reid says:

5 "No, but approximately, the majority of your shift was spent

6 outside?"

7 And you said:

8 "Yes."

9 Does that refresh your memory?

10 A. Yes, I accept that. One day I would spend more time outdoors,

11 the other day I would spend more time in the office. So overall, it was

12 half/half. I was a lot outdoors. Some days I spent seven or eight hours

13 outdoors. Sometimes there were days when I spent ten hours outdoors and

14 went into the office for only five minutes. Such things also happened.

15 I accept it.

16 Q. You said that in paragraph 78 of your statement, you say that

17 according to your information there were no more than a total of five

18 deaths in Omarska. I want to clarify that, what you mean by that. You

19 mean no more than five deaths in Omarska during the time that you were

20 there?

21 A. This is more or less what I thought. What I knew during my stay

22 there was there were five, six, or perhaps four of them. I can't tell

23 you anything more precisely. I knew that people were saying that one of

24 them died of natural causes. There were four bodies that we found there.

25 I don't know whether during that incident when a soldier opened fire in

Page 45595

1 revenge that two people died. So all in all, that could -- there could

2 have been like five or six bodies all together. This is what I can

3 remember.

4 Q. And Mehmedalija Nasic, who was shot by Dragan Popovic, also known

5 as Pavelic, on or about the 10th of June, 1992; there was also

6 Becir Medunjanin who was beaten to death by Zoran Zigic and

7 Duco [phoen] Knezevic around mid-June; and there was also, during the

8 time that you were there, around 12 to 14 June, the killing of

9 Emir Ramic, Amir Saric, and Dalija Hrnic. That's just to name a few. So

10 you don't dispute that there were more than five deaths during the time

11 you were there, do you?

12 A. I'm saying once again, there may have been another killing, there

13 may have been, but I am telling you what I knew at the time. And as far

14 as the previous paragraph is concerned, I did not mention the case of

15 Nasic who was killed by Popovic, also known as Pavlic, not Pavelic. I

16 heard about that. In the morning when I arrived at work, I heard that an

17 incident had happened during the night. Popovic testified before this

18 Court and I believe that he explained in very great detail as to what had

19 happened that night.

20 Q. And, of course, there was also those four people that were shot

21 by the -- the person who came into the camp on the 30th of May, and

22 that's Esef Muranovic, Avdo Muranovic, and another gentleman whose name

23 is Tevfik, whose nickname is Sefik. You know about that killing?

24 A. No, perhaps you're talking about those bodies that we found there

25 already dead, perhaps you're talking about those people, or perhaps those

Page 45596

1 who succumbed to their wounds sustained during that incident. Maybe

2 those bodies overlapped. But I didn't know any of their names. I didn't

3 know anything about them.

4 Q. No, these were different people from the three or four bodies

5 that you saw on that first day. Witnesses testified at your trial that

6 on almost a daily basis several dead bodies -- and this is in the

7 judgement of paragraph 86, that several dead bodies would be seen near

8 the white house which would then be loaded onto a yellow TAM or Tamic

9 truck the following day and taken away. And they also found in

10 paragraph 66 of the judgement that dead bodies were left to fester

11 outside for days at a time and a terrible stench and fear pervaded the

12 camp. Now, is it really your evidence that you never saw another dead

13 body lying anywhere within the Omarska camp compound during the 17 days

14 that you were working in the camp, in particular, given that you've told

15 us a moment ago about the amount of time that you spent outside?

16 A. Well, you say it yourself that the witnesses said almost every

17 day which means not every day. So when you take into account my work and

18 my number of days, and that it was every third day that I worked a day

19 shift, it is only logical, and I still claim that what I saw, and I told

20 you honestly what it was, and I've said it several times before this

21 Court, I've told this Court already about those things that I know.

22 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you said earlier in your testimony that you and

23 Mr. Mejakic were always making sure that someone was in the camp and that

24 you were -- it's right, isn't it, that you were working 12-hour shifts.

25 Apart from those first couple of days, you then got into a routine where

Page 45597

1 you were working 12-hour shifts each? That's right, isn't it?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. Zeljko and I were more experienced than

3 professional policemen, and we agreed of our own initiative to make

4 things function better for the prisoners and that's how we proceeded. We

5 may have been wrong in doing that. We would never have been charged with

6 command responsibility, which is not in the final decision, because it

7 was rejected. However, it was our moral duty to teach reserve police

8 officers to help the prisoners because we didn't have any other duties or

9 obligations. We didn't have any other possibilities or duty or any other

10 authorities or competences. So one can say that it was our agreement in

11 principle, which does not mean that we follow through a hundred per cent.

12 It was our internal agreement that one of the two of us should always be

13 down there, but it did sometimes happen that none of us were there.

14 Q. In paragraph 54 of your statement, you say that you sometimes

15 heard cries from the offices in which the investigations were being

16 conducted. And in paragraph 62, you gave one example of when you were

17 aware of someone being beaten during interrogation.

18 A. Yes, yes. I remember an event when --

19 Q. You reported this incident to the -- it's actually outlined in

20 your statement, so you don't need to republic it. You reported this

21 incident to the interrogation co-ordinators, yes?

22 A. As a matter of fact, my intervention in that case was more about

23 establishing whether any of the police officers were involved in tortures

24 or forcible interrogation, because it did sometimes happen that a

25 policeman would be present in the same office where the investigators

Page 45598

1 were or whether such things were done by the investigators. There was an

2 investigator from Banja Luka who slapped a prisoner on that occasion.

3 There was no need to report the incident to the investigator in such

4 cases. And that was not or obligation, in any case. The investigators

5 were, in a way, superior to us, but -- although they were not in a

6 position to order us. As a rule, investigators are always superior to

7 the policemen, but whether that was always the case or not, that's

8 another issue.

9 Q. Mr. Kvocka, do you remember saying in your interview when

10 Mr. Reid said, "Did you complain,..." and this is about this very

11 incident:

12 "Did you complain to the chief of the interrogators?"

13 And you said:

14 "I told them the same thing. I told them. I told them something

15 in the sense why were they allowing it and they should know that it was

16 not right."

17 A. Yes, yes, I agree. I don't remember who this person belonged to,

18 which of the services he belonged to. I don't know who I complained to,

19 more specifically. But I agree that I spoke to their boss. However, the

20 meaning of my previous answer is that it was not my official duty to

21 complain, officially. It was enough to report to the superior officer.

22 But I repeat: Those were the rules. It was a conflict between -- go

23 ahead.

24 Q. Mr. Kvocka, the interrogation co-ordinator's room was at the end

25 of the corridor of the rooms where all the interrogations were taking

Page 45599

1 place; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So it's from that room at the end of the -- at the end of the

4 corridor, I think. They would be in a position to be able to hear noises

5 coming from these interrogation rooms, yes?

6 A. Relatively. The corridor was long. The office was at the end of

7 the corridor. And the other office was across the corridor from our

8 police officers' office. That's why we noticed. Whether they heard or

9 not is a very relative thing and I can't testify to that. I can only

10 claim that I heard something, I entered the office, I saw a person

11 standing there who was rather red in the face, which means that he had

12 been slapped which was not unheard of in our communist police service.

13 Q. When you say you saw a person standing there who was rather red

14 in the face, you're talking about one of the detainees, yes?

15 A. Yes, if we are talking about this particular case.

16 Q. Now, you then went on to say in paragraph 63 of your statement

17 that:

18 "During my work at Omarska, it seemed to me that there were other

19 instances where force was used."

20 And I want to clarify by what you meant by "other instances of

21 force being used."

22 A. That's how it was done. There were talks among the guards about

23 people having been beaten, so, yes, we did receive several pieces

24 information about people having being beaten. But I repeat, it never

25 happened before my eyes. Nothing was ever reported. But one could

Page 45600

1 suspect that some people were beaten at the time while I was there.

2 Q. Yes, you testified at -- in your trial that you heard screams

3 when you were in the office. And you said:

4 "I did see men, and in view of the conditions of the situation,

5 they were suffering. But I didn't see how they were suffering. I saw

6 people with injuries."

7 Do you recall saying that, that's right?

8 A. Yes, I remember. This is what I knew from what people were

9 saying among themselves --

10 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

11 A. -- or when people were taken out to lunch I looked at their face,

12 and I could see bruises and they had their noses broken.

13 Q. Yes, and one example of that is that you saw and spoke to people

14 who -- who had visible bruises on their face, and you concluded that they

15 had been beaten up, and in particular, Sefik Terzic, also known as Kiki,

16 the hairdresser; and Rezik Kukanovic [phoen]. You remember seeing them

17 and speaking with them?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Now --

20 A. Yes, I remember that I saw them. One of them had bruises on his

21 face. Since I knew both of them from before the war, they didn't want to

22 tell me anything. They said, Let's not make things worse. It's fine.

23 It's okay. That was their answer. They didn't want to tell me what had

24 happened to them, as far as I can remember now.

25 Q. Now, Dr. Gajic from the Omarska medical centre testified in your

Page 45601

1 trial that his diagnosis was that most of the injuries occurred from

2 blows with blunt instruments, "including, for example, an army boot, then

3 the butt of a rifle, hands, and fists." And that's a finding that the

4 Trial Chamber made at paragraph 65 of the judgement. Is -- these are the

5 sort of the injuries that -- that you are saying that -- that you saw

6 visible on the detainees? These type of injuries, caused by these

7 objects, I mean, instruments and boots.

8 A. Yes, if that's what the doctor said, I suppose that he was right.

9 I did see a few such cases, but I had to tell you that in my previous

10 statements and in my previous testimonies, I said that I was present when

11 detainees were being brought in, and a lot of them had been injured

12 before they were ever brought to the investigation centre, people were

13 arrested in woods, they had participated in some clashes, and they showed

14 visible injuries. So one cannot say that the detainees were injured only

15 in the investigation centre. Many of them had been injured during

16 combat. And as for those about whom I have testified here, those were

17 the people who were in the investigation centre, who sustained injuries

18 there, and whom I saw personally.

19 Q. You say in paragraph 44 of your statement that all together there

20 were between 15 and 18 women at Omarska who were considered detainees.

21 In your record of interview, you said that there were approximately 20 to

22 25 women in the camp. You're aware, are you not, that there were at

23 least 36 women who were detained and who were not free to leave the camp?

24 A. Yes, I can't give you the exact number. But while I was there,

25 there could not have been over 20. When I left, the numbers could have

Page 45602

1 gone up or down, I can't be sure of that, but while I was there, there

2 were about 20 of them. There may have been 19 or 21, I really cannot be

3 more precise in that.

4 Q. And you said that their accommodation and living conditions were

5 better because they were women. You're aware, aren't you, from your

6 trial, that some of these women were raped and sexually assaulted at

7 night by the guards?

8 A. I know what I heard during trial. While I was there in the camp,

9 nobody talked about that. Nobody ever complained. There were never

10 rumours about that. Nobody was aware of any --

11 Q. [Overlapping speakers]

12 A. -- so I was thinking we were coming back to the trial judgement

13 where it was acknowledged that that's how it was when I was there.

14 Q. But even if you weren't aware of it then, you certainly were

15 aware of it when you made your statement to the Defence, weren't you,

16 that these women had been mistreated?

17 A. You know what? I provided a statement about what I know. I

18 can't tell the Defence that I heard about the rapes in Omarska in July

19 and August. I don't think it would be fair on my behalf to say something

20 like that in my statement, because I only heard about that during trial

21 which means that much after my time spent in the investigation centre did

22 I heard about the rapes in Omarska.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript. [In English]

24 transcript. [Interpretation] There have been several mistakes. However,

25 on lines 24 and 25, the witness said:

Page 45603

1 "I could not have stated in my statement to the Defence team what

2 I heard here during the trials."

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.


5 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

7 Do you confirm having said so?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is exactly what I said.

9 I said that it would not be fair on my behalf to say to the Defence team

10 what I heard during the trial which took place in 2001.

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

12 Yes, please continue.


14 Q. In paragraphs 24, 42, and 66 of your statement, you refer to a

15 runway. The runway that you're referring to in your statement is the

16 area also known as the "pista," is it not?

17 A. There is the term "pista," which is an asphalt surface between

18 the two buildings, and very often the detainees were called to go to that

19 runway from their respective buildings.

20 Q. Just so we can orient the Trial Chamber.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have Exhibit P00543 please.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript again. Line 24 seems to

23 be fatal. The witness said -- the witness asked to be let out to go to

24 the runway. The detainees themselves were asking to be let out to go to

25 the "pista," not the other way around.

Page 45604

1 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree, Mr. Kvocka?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is precisely what I said,

3 that they demanded, asked, requested to be allowed to go out, the

4 detainees themselves.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On line 4 now it says that the

6 witness requested to be allowed to go out. The witness actually said

7 that the detainees requested and demanded to be allowed to go out.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that's what I heard.

9 Shall we continue, Ms. Sutherland.


11 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you see a picture of an aerial photograph of the

12 Omarska camp in front of you on the screen. With the usher's assistance,

13 can you use the pointer and just point to this "pista" area or runway as

14 you call it?

15 A. The area between these two buildings. And now I marked its

16 border with the ring.

17 Q. And you're pointing to the -- or you've just drawn a square of

18 the cemented area between the administration building on the left and the

19 hangar building on the right; correct?

20 A. Yes, correct.

21 Q. And then in the foreground, we can see the -- what's known as the

22 white house on the grassed area. And then to the -- is that correct?

23 A. Correct. There is a building here. It's facade is white. I

24 know from my trial that it is known as the white house. During my stay

25 in Omarska, that term was not used. The building was not called the

Page 45605

1 white house. It was just one of the buildings within the complex.

2 Q. Where detainees were housed, yes?

3 A. Yes. I remember that there were also several people detained

4 there.

5 Q. And then down towards the right-hand corner at the end of the

6 hangar building, there is the building known as the red house; correct?

7 A. Yes, correct. There is a red building there as well.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't believe that we need to

9 keep this marked photograph. It was simply to orient Your Honours, and

10 I've identified for the record the square that -- where the witness

11 marked.



14 Q. In paragraph --

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to tender

16 this. We would kindly ask the witness to place the date and to initial

17 the image.

18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, Your Honour, if that's going to happen, it

20 can come in as a Prosecution exhibit. I -- I've --

21 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I was trying to save one more exhibit number for

23 you, but --

24 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- it can be a Prosecution exhibit.

Page 45606


2 Could you kindly put the date, which is 20th January, 2014, and

3 your signature, Mr. Kvocka.

4 THE WITNESS: [Marks]


6 Q. Now, in paragraph 42 of your statement, you mentioned --

7 JUDGE KWON: And shall we assign a number for this?

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Your Honour, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6593, Your Honours.


11 Q. Now, in paragraph 42 of your statement, you mentioned that once

12 you noticed that 50 men were lying prostrate. Now you mean that they

13 were lying on their stomachs with their heads down, don't you?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Now during your 17 days in the camp up until the third week of

16 June 1992, you said when you were interviewed by Mr. Reid that you saw

17 around 3- to 400 people on the "pista"; correct?

18 A. Yes, I suppose so. I suppose that that's what I said.

19 Q. Do you remember saying that?

20 A. Yes, I remember and I do remember that that's how it was, but I

21 couldn't give the number; 300, 400, 250. In any case, that's how it was.

22 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you were asked how many of them would be there

23 approximately, talking about the "pista," and you responded, "Up to 300

24 or 400." Now, does that refresh your recollection? Because if it

25 doesn't, we can go to the page, but you may now recall it.

Page 45607

1 A. I remember that I said something to that effect. I couldn't

2 remember the number that I mentioned, but I remember that more or less

3 that was the number, and I don't see a problem. I accept what you're

4 saying.

5 Q. And there was also a machine-gun set up on the roof of the

6 administration building in the direction of the "pista" area; correct?

7 A. I believe that that was the case for only one day, not even a

8 whole day. That was the kind of security that was in place, but that was

9 abolished, that was suspended. It was done by somebody who did not even

10 belong to the police. Several people from the Territorial Defence were

11 involved at first when there were not enough police officers, and there

12 was a soldier with a machine-gun because there -- it had been estimated

13 that a guard post was needed to be there. But I claim that it didn't

14 last more than one day and not even a whole day.

15 Q. Well, witnesses and Mr. Mejakic think that it was there for more

16 than one day. You were asked:

17 "Mr. Reid: Was there a machine-gun set up on the roof of the

18 administration building overlooking the 'pista'?"

19 You said:

20 "It's possible that it was located here on this roof or maybe

21 there was a small terrace there."

22 Mr. Reid said:

23 "On the roof?"

24 You said:

25 "Not absolutely on the roof."

Page 45608

1 He said, Mr. Reid:

2 "But outside overlooking this area here, would that be correct?"

3 And you said:

4 "Yes."

5 Overlooking this area, meaning the "pista" area that you'd just

6 been talking about. Do you recall saying that, Mr. Kvocka?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have to intervene, please.

8 The sentence was misinterpreted to the witness. The interpretation he

9 received was:

10 "Absolutely on the roof."

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, yeah.

12 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you said:

13 "Not absolutely on the roof."

14 Mr. Reid said:

15 "But outside overlooking this area here, meaning the 'pista'

16 area, would that be correct?"

17 And you said:

18 "Yes."

19 Do you recall saying that to Mr. Reid?

20 A. After 15 years, it is really hard to remember word for word what

21 it was that I said to Mr. Reid. The essence was that there was this

22 machine-gun either on the terrace or on the roof for a short period of

23 time, and I cannot remember exactly whether it was on the terrace or on

24 the roof, but they're very close to each other. It's a very small

25 difference in terms of altitude, if you will. So it was there probably

Page 45609

1 because there was a 360-degree view, and the soldier who was probably in

2 charge of external security was supposed to observe the entrance to the

3 investigation centre and to protect it possibly from any kind of

4 incursion. I seem to believe that that is why that machine-gun was so

5 high up.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Interpretation. I'm not sure that

7 "prilaz" should be interpreted as "ulaz." So it was a question of

8 height, not of the entrances themselves.

9 JUDGE KWON: I can lend assistance to this.

10 Ms. Sutherland, I take it you have more?

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I was about to say after we

12 had finished with this matter, it would be -- would it be a good time for

13 a break?


15 Please continue. You're done with this topic?

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, yes.

17 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I mean, I actually can't -- I don't understand

19 Mr. Karadzic's intervention where he says, "It was question of height,

20 not of the entrances," because what was interpreted in English to me made

21 sense from the witness's answer, so ...

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's leave it there.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

24 JUDGE KWON: And we'll have a break.

25 THE ACCUSED: If I may say, access,"prilaz," entrance here

Page 45610

1 "ulaz." [Interpretation] Entrance is gate and access is the surrounding

2 area.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: So I assume that --

4 Q. Mr. Kvocka, did you say that it was put there to observe the

5 access to the investigation centre, or did you say that it was put there

6 to observe the entrance to the investigation centre?

7 A. This is what I said: Probably the machine-gun was put high up so

8 that it could monitor the entire surrounding area around the

9 investigation centre from all sides, where the entrances were, where the

10 surrounding area was, that is why it was so high up. Since it was not

11 referred to whether it was fenced off or not, so probably the idea was

12 that during the first few days someone might try to break into the

13 investigation centre and that is why the idea was to control it from that

14 area. So the entire area. That is why it was so high up.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I don't think there was any problem in

16 understanding the general context.

17 We'll have a break, Mr. Kvocka, for half an hour, and resume at 5

18 past 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 [The witness takes the stand]

22 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Ms. Sutherland.


25 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in relation to the water, the Trial Chamber in your

Page 45611

1 case at paragraph 57 said that the detainees were supplied with drinking

2 water but that the quantity of water supplied to the detainees was

3 clearly inadequate.

4 A. I don't remember exactly what the judgement says. I think that

5 there were sufficient quantities, but it was difficult for everybody to

6 get water at the same time. That meant that people would have to wait a

7 bit. That was my understanding of the situation.

8 Q. In relation to accommodation, in paragraph 40 of your statement,

9 you mention that the conditions in the hangar building were quite

10 pleasant. That's what you said, didn't you? You didn't spend any length

11 of time in there, did you?

12 A. Yes, I went in there only a few times because I had some minor

13 matters to deal with. As for the conditions, well, that could be

14 interpreted in several ways. It wasn't that it was that dirty or that it

15 was altogether inadequate, that the roof was leaking or that it was too

16 hot or something like that. From that point of view, that was all right.

17 But then, on the one hand, there were no beds. So from that point of

18 view one could say that the conditions were not good.

19 Q. And you said in your interview that people were -- were housed on

20 the "pista" because -- because the other buildings were full; is that

21 right? You remember saying that?

22 A. Yes, possibly people were housed on the "pista," when many people

23 were brought in and before they were all put up. But in due course, they

24 would all end up in doors, not on the "pista." And I think I've already

25 said that during the days when some people were taken out to the "pista,"

Page 45612

1 I remember right now that there were some rotations, that sometimes

2 people from the hangar would be taken to the "pista," and then on another

3 day people from another facility so that they would get some fresh air.

4 Q. Because it was so overcrowded and stifling where they were in the

5 hangar?

6 A. All right. It may be put that way, since there are several

7 people -- well, of course, there were big windows there and then the

8 windows could be opened in order to air the facilities now overcrowded.

9 Well, I said that it wasn't very bad, but it wasn't extra, extra bad

10 either.

11 Q. You said there were two toilet facilities in the hangar building;

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, two or three toilets were at the

14 entrance into the hangar building. You'd already enter the building and

15 then there is a small corridor and then two or three toilets on one side

16 and two or three toilets on the other side. I think that there were two

17 rooms there as well where detainees were put up. I cannot remember now.

18 I cannot say specifically. But there were at least two --

19 Q. I'm sorry --

20 A. -- on either side of --

21 Q. And so thousands of detainees had to use these -- these limited

22 toilet facilities; correct?

23 A. Everybody probably had to, yes.

24 Q. The detainees were also hosed down on the "pista," yes?

25 A. The detainees? It was once that I saw the detainees washing on

Page 45613

1 the "pista." They were doing it themselves. We don't have the sketch

2 there now, but on the very border-line of that red line that I placed

3 there, there is a system of taps where there was water running nonstop.

4 There were several on both sides. And once, I noticed that they would

5 strip to the waist and wash using that water around the "pista," say

6 around these buildings. There were certainly a few of those hydrants

7 used by firemen, and my impression was that the detainees asked for water

8 to be used from there, too, because I know that during the day the

9 detainees would sit on the grass, those from some of the facilities

10 there.

11 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you said the sanitary conditions in Omarska were

12 below an acceptable level. That's what you said at your trial, didn't

13 you?

14 A. Well, all right. As far as normal conditions are concerned,

15 conditions when there would be no conflict or anything like that, that

16 would not be acceptable. But as for this general commotion and

17 everything, it's a matter of assessment, and I would kindly ask that I

18 not be the one to make that assessment. For some they were okay, for

19 others they weren't.

20 Q. You also testified that the food given to the detainees was

21 unsatisfactory; the quantity of one meal a day and that the quality of

22 that one meal wasn't good. That's correct, isn't it?

23 A. It is correct that I spoke about that, that there wasn't enough

24 food. During the first ten days or so, I think there were two meals.

25 And then there was less food. And then in the coming days, I think there

Page 45614

1 was only one meal per day. I don't know how long that went on. I left.

2 There wasn't enough food, generally speaking, and I know that the guards

3 would have to share a single slice of pie because there wasn't enough

4 food for all. Outside Prijedor there was a blockade, so there weren't

5 enough stocks.

6 Q. You also know of cases where detainees were too ill or injured

7 from beatings to go to the canteen to take a meal, don't you? You were

8 informed about this.

9 A. I cannot remember a specific case that somebody could not go to

10 eat. As for the other thing, that there were ill people and injured

11 people, I already spoke about that.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13 THE ACCUSED: Maybe it's not too important, but the witness said

14 that the stocks had been exhausted by that time.

15 JUDGE KWON: Well, thank you. Shall we continue.


17 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in relation to the medical assistance that was

18 provided, your Trial Chamber found at paragraph 63 of the judgement that

19 the assistance that this medical team offered to the thousands of

20 detainees was grossly inadequate. That's right, isn't it?

21 A. That is probably a statement made by the Trial Chamber, and I

22 would want to go into that, whether it's correct or not correct. Whether

23 this was sufficient, well, probably, but to a lesser degree in view of

24 the number of detainees, but there was some kind of medical care. I know

25 that medical staff came from the Omarska health centre, and even a doctor

Page 45615

1 from Prijedor, as far as I can remember now. A medical technician came

2 in every day, and he had some medicine. Now, whether that was enough or

3 whether it wasn't enough ...

4 Q. So what was happening in the camp that required a medical -- the

5 doctor. There were illnesses and there was also people that had to be

6 treated from the beatings; true?

7 A. Well, there were people who were supposed to be treated. There

8 were people who were ill. There were people who were injured. There

9 were people who were wounded during war operations. There were also

10 those who were injured within the camp during certain incidents that I

11 mentioned.

12 Q. In paragraph 27 of your statement, you say that:

13 "With regard to the Geneva Conventions, I acquired some knowledge

14 of them during my police training."

15 This is the first sentence of that paragraph. In fact, you had

16 no training regarding the Geneva Conventions in the police academy nor in

17 any other training you had later on, did you?

18 A. It is correct that I did not have any kind of special training in

19 relation to the Geneva Conventions. I had training that was police

20 training, police roles, but I know that too, that it was always stated in

21 the pre-war system that all laws were brought into accordance with the

22 Geneva Conventions. So all the rules that were in force in the police

23 were considered to be in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

24 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you said that you didn't have any kind of special

25 training. You had no training. Do you recall at the end of your

Page 45616

1 interview with Mr. Reid, he asked you whether there was anything you

2 wished to say, anything you wished to add, and you read from a prepared

3 statement, and you said this, "Forth...," I -- I quote:

4 "Forth, in the police academy," because this was the fourth

5 paragraph that you were reading from, "... in the police academy nor in

6 any other training I had later on, we were not told about anything about

7 the Geneva Conventions. There was no such obligations in the police,

8 that the policemen would know about it, because police functioned in

9 completely different conditions, completely different circumstances that

10 covered by the Geneva Conventions."

11 So this wasn't an answer prompted by any question by Mr. Reid,

12 this was something that you proffered yourself at the conclusion of the

13 interview reading from a prepared statement that you had?

14 A. Yes, I said the same thing during my previous answer, that I had

15 not undergone any special training regarding the Geneva Conventions, and

16 no policeman in the former system in Yugoslavia did. But as for the

17 legislation that was in force at the time, it was brought into accordance

18 with the Geneva Conventions, so there was no need to have any kind of

19 special training regarding the Geneva Conventions. So it is the same

20 answer that I provided to Mr. Reid and also in response to your previous

21 question.

22 Q. Now you testified that you believed that the regulations were

23 violated and that also that there were probably violation regarding the

24 conditions of detention. And you said that one could see that the

25 conditions were not such as to justify the treatment. Do you recall

Page 45617

1 saying that when you testified?

2 A. I probably did. If it is considered that any detainee -- or

3 every detainee during a war or any other conflict should have a bed, then

4 if there is such a rule, then that rule was violated. If they were

5 supposed to have enough food, then probably that kind of rule was

6 violated too, if that is the way you look at it. That is how I looked at

7 it. That is what I thought when I said that.

8 Q. You said in paragraph 28 of your statement that you don't know

9 whether there were decisions made by an investigating judge to extend the

10 detention or release people in Omarska camp. You know, don't you, that

11 the president of the Crisis Staff issued an order forbidding the

12 individual release of detainees from the Trnopolje, Keraterm, and

13 Omarska. And that's part of Exhibit P02915.

14 A. I can just say that I know that in the beginning a group of

15 detainees were released after investigation, and then there may have been

16 a few other individual cases when people were released. And then after

17 that, people were not released. Now, whether somebody was released after

18 I had left Omarska, I don't know. As for this order, I don't know about

19 it. If you have it somewhere in your records, then that is the case.

20 But it was never presented to me and I'm not familiar with that.

21 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear

23 Mr. Karadzic.

24 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat, Mr. Karadzic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we kindly ask to have that

Page 45618

1 order shown to the witness? It pertains to Omarska.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't think it's necessary, Your Honour. It

3 was -- it's dated the 2nd of July, 1992, and I simply wanted to know

4 whether the witness was aware of whether he had heard about the president

5 of the Crisis Staff issuing this order.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.


8 Q. Mr. Kvocka, the Trial Chamber findings in relation to your

9 knowledge of crimes being committed, they said this: That you

10 undoubtedly knew that a -- this is at paragraph 384 of your judgement,

11 that he undoubtedly knew that a wide variety of crimes were being

12 committed and that physical and mental violence was systematically used

13 to threaten and terrorise the detainees in the camp. And they also said

14 at paragraph 385: The evidence demonstrate that Kvocka had extensive

15 knowledge of the abusive practices, and conditions, and knew that serious

16 crimes were regularly committed in the Omarska camp. And they went

17 further and said in paragraph 397: It is indisputable that he was

18 present while crimes were committed, and he was undoubtedly aware that

19 crimes of extreme physical and mental violence were routinely inflicted

20 upon the non-Serbs imprisoned in Omarska. And despite the knowledge of

21 the abusive treatment and conditions, he continued to work for at least

22 17 days in the camp where he performed the tasks required of him

23 skillfully, efficiently, and without complaint.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wonder.


Page 45619

1 Q. Now that's the truth of it, isn't it, Mr. Kvocka?

2 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer the question. Do you mean to say

3 that you have objection to the questions?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I wonder, I wonder

5 whether this question is a bit too complex, whether the witness could

6 include everything in a brief answer. It could be broken down, this

7 question.

8 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure if the witness has difficulty in

9 answering this question. She just summarised the judgement -- of his

10 judgement and then put some questions. Let us see whether the witness

11 can answer the question.

12 Mr. Kvocka, can you answer the question?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll try. So this is a

14 citation from the judgement, and I have no comment with regard to that.

15 As for all my knowledge regarding this citation and everything that I

16 did, I talked about that to Mr. Reid for several days and then also I

17 testified before this Court, and there is probably a transcript. And I

18 testified for six or seven days or so. I said in that statement -- and I

19 always said the same thing, it's always one and the same story, and I

20 cannot comment on these conclusions, whether they got it 100 per cent

21 right, all the things that I spoke about, and then, of course, there were

22 other testimonies too, and maybe other people were believed in a

23 different way. I'm just saying that this conclusion, that I did that

24 systematically, wilfully, and so on, that is not correct.

25 As a matter of fact, on one occasion I stated, and that is

Page 45620

1 written somewhere, that I would have done the same thing in terms of the

2 way in which I worked, because it is impossible to present here the

3 effort that I made and the personal dignity that I invested in helping

4 the people who were obtained. That would be it. That is what I can say

5 now briefly about that. You've read the judgement and it is the way it

6 is.


8 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in paragraph 32 of your statement, you say that you

9 know that certain number of disciplinary measures were taken against

10 individuals belonging to the Omarska police station. I just want you to

11 tell me the names of these individuals, please.

12 A. I know [No interpretation]

13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I don't think we are getting the

14 English translation. Could you start over again, Mr. Kvocka.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In response to this question, I

16 know there were several disciplinary proceedings because some people were

17 removed. They did not come to work for several days. Instead, they went

18 to give statements to the internal police department or some other

19 institution. I don't know exactly. But I know 100 per cent that

20 Mr. Popovic was absent from work six or seven days due to disciplinary

21 proceedings. That's all I can remember at this moment.


23 Q. So, Mr. Kvocka, the person that you just mentioned, Popovic, was

24 the person that murdered Mehmedalija Nasic, and you are saying that he

25 was disciplined by being kept away from the camp for several days. Is

Page 45621

1 that what you're saying? That was the extent of a disciplinary action

2 for a murder?

3 A. No. I'm saying that I know that he was absent after that

4 incident, and that Zeljko or somebody said that disciplinary proceedings

5 were underway. Now, how they ended, I don't know --

6 Q. You --

7 A. -- and whether his punishment was this absence or not, that's not

8 my judgement.

9 Q. You testified -- you testified that you never heard or knew of

10 any formal investigation being initiated to find out about any of the

11 things that had happened in the Omarska camp. That's what you said in

12 your testimony, didn't you?

13 A. Yes, I said that I never found out the final outcome of any

14 proceedings that may have taken place, because nobody had the obligation

15 to inform me nor did I have the right to inquire.

16 Q. You also said in paragraph 33 of your statement that you know

17 that two or three guards were dismissed. I just need their names. Can

18 you just tell me the names of the guards that were dismissed?

19 A. I cannot remember now. Perhaps I mentioned some names when I

20 testified.

21 Q. Now --

22 A. If I did, you can trust that. And also several people were

23 rotated, several people from the Territorial Defence, and some other

24 units who were there in the early days, but not later. I really can't

25 remember now.

Page 45622

1 Q. Mr. Kvocka, no indictments were ever brought by the Serb

2 authorities against persons who committed murders, beatings, sexual

3 assaults against the civilians detained in the Omarska camp, were there?

4 A. I don't know whether they did or didn't. I don't know if there

5 were any trials. I'm really not the right person to ask because I don't

6 work in the criminal investigation service or the prosecutor's office. I

7 am just a regular policeman who doesn't have access to these things, so I

8 don't know either way.

9 Q. I want to leave the Omarska camp now and move to Keraterm camp.

10 The massacre that occurred on or about the night of the

11 24th of July, 1992, where at least 150 non-Serbs were killed, that was

12 talked about a lot in Prijedor, wasn't it? You didn't hear anything

13 specific but there was talk among the people about it. That's what you

14 said in your record of interview, didn't you?

15 A. Yes, approximately. If I said that at the time, that means I

16 knew it at the time, and now I would say the same.

17 Q. Now I want to talk about disarming of the non-Serb population.

18 You heard on Radio Prijedor ultimatums by the Serb authorities for

19 non-Serbs to surrender their weapons; correct? Yes or no?

20 A. Yes, whether I personally heard it on the radio, I'm not sure.

21 But there were -- there were appeals to surrender weapons --

22 Q. So there --

23 A. -- when it was already quite certain that there would be a

24 conflict.

25 Q. So you didn't hear anything similar in relation to the Serb

Page 45623

1 population; correct?

2 A. No, no --

3 Q. So you --

4 A. -- because I think power had already been taken over. In any

5 case, no, not in our specific area.

6 Q. No.

7 A. I didn't hear.

8 Q. You were never ordered to disarm the Serb population in the

9 village of Omarska; correct?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And as you said in the area where you lived in in Prijedor, there

12 was no -- no call for the Serbs to hand in their weapons. You --

13 A. No, no. There were no such appeals.

14 Q. You mentioned earlier today about there being clashes and that

15 people were wounded in -- in armed clashes. And paragraph 18 of your

16 statement in relation to the incident at the Hambarine check-point, you

17 said that the police attempted to find a solution and asked for

18 Oliskovic [phoen] to be handed over. And when that didn't happen, a day

19 or two after the incident, clashes occurred in the village. However,

20 when the alleged perpetrators were not handed over by the village of

21 Hambarine, the village was attacked and it was shelled for a day and

22 homes were destroyed. There were no armed clashes, as you say.

23 A. I don't know how you look at it, but I know there was an

24 incident. I heard about it because I was not involved in that incident.

25 The incident was at Hambarine, a military vehicle was attacked, and I

Page 45624

1 believe one or two soldiers were killed.

2 Q. Mr. Kvocka.

3 A. Yes, please.

4 Q. You've talked about that and you said that after that incident,

5 the people were then asked that -- that -- that was the incident, which

6 you said then -- the -- the -- the people of Hambarine were asked to hand

7 over Oliskovic, and when that didn't happen, a day or two after the

8 incident, clashes occurred in the village. What I'm putting to you is

9 there were no clashes, it was simply a military attack. There was

10 shelling for a day. Houses were destroyed. There were no -- there was

11 no armed clashes, fighting, shelling between the Muslims and the Serbs.

12 It was a military attack on the village of Hambarine by the Serb

13 authorities.

14 A. All I know is that an action was taken by, I think, both the army

15 and the police - I think it was a combined operation - to capture the

16 perpetrators of that attack and arrest them. Now, what was the cause of

17 that clash, of that conflict? I don't know because I was not involved in

18 the event. I know the story was that the population had withdrawn deeper

19 inside towards some sort of settlement, Kurivaj [phoen], I believe, in

20 this hilly area. But what exactly happened, whether we call it attack or

21 clash, or conflict, I really don't know, and I cannot give you evidence

22 about that. All I know was that an operation was undertaken to apprehend

23 the perpetrators who had failed to surrender after an ultimatum was

24 issued.

25 Q. Again, in paragraph 19 of your statement, you talk about in

Page 45625

1 relation to Kozarac, you say that there were clashes there. Again, after

2 this incident on the Banja Luka-Prijedor road, what followed was a

3 planned military attack on Kozarac where the village was shelled for two

4 days. And thereafter, the Muslim population were rounded up, the men and

5 the women and the children and the elderly -- the men were separated from

6 the women and the children and the elderly, and the men were taken to the

7 Omarska camp, and the women and the children and the elderly to the

8 Trnopolje. That's right, isn't it?

9 A. You could put it that way. I don't know exactly if they were

10 immediately taken from there to Omarska camp. I believe at the time of

11 the attack on Kozarac, the investigation centre did not even exist. But

12 again, I was not directly involved so I don't know. I know there was a

13 clash, although you will be angry if I use the word "clash." Some sort

14 of operation was undertaken because there had been a show-down at the

15 check-point manned by the Green Berets or some other Muslim unit against

16 a military column from Banja Luka or somewhere.

17 Q. Mr. Kvocka.

18 A. So there was an operation, and since there were casualties --

19 Q. It -- it -- it wasn't at the check-point at Kozarac. It was down

20 the road at Jakupovici. And in -- and in -- and in response, the village

21 of Kozarac gets shelled.

22 A. Okay. We don't have to be that precise. That road near

23 Jakupovici -- Jakupovici is a hamlet that is part of the area that is

24 called Kozarac. But it's less important. It is all related to Kozarac.

25 It's only three kilometres from the centre of Kozarac. I know about that

Page 45626

1 incident from hearsay, so please don't take it against me if I'm wrong

2 about details.

3 Q. So it's --

4 A. It doesn't mean that I don't want to tell the truth. There was

5 this clash, there was the operation, and there were the prisoners.

6 Q. So let's not and -- let's not try and find the -- the people that

7 may be involved in the incident in the hamlet of Jakupovici, but instead

8 let's do a planned, co-ordinated, and sustained armed attack on a -- on a

9 civilian settlement.

10 A. I cannot confirm that. It can remain as your allegation.

11 Whether it was targeting civilians or the Green Berets, I don't know. I

12 cannot believe that anybody would attack civilians just like that, but

13 I'm not a direct participant of these events and I have no direct

14 knowledge about it, so I cannot confirm that.

15 Q. Okay. I want to talk about the cleansing of the Brdo in July

16 1992. In relation to that operation -- and the Brdo area being south of

17 the town of Prijedor. In the -- in the operation to cleanse the

18 non-Serbs, you had police information that the military police and the

19 intervention platoon also took part in this operation; correct?

20 A. Yes, there was talk about that. There was an operation to

21 capture the people who, after the previous incident at Hambarine, had

22 pulled out. All these settlements, Hambarine and Kurevo, all that is

23 part of Brdo area, and I remember that people talked about this operation

24 to catch the remaining assailants because the first operation was not

25 successful.

Page 45627

1 Q. In -- in paragraph 39 of your statement, you mention

2 Fikret Kadiric, the former commander of the Prijedor police station. And

3 you state that as you were going to work you saw two policemen putting

4 him into a car, and you think that he was arrested at that point, and you

5 said you didn't know where they were taking him or why.

6 Now, I don't want you to recite the whole incident, but it's

7 true, is it not, that you were actually there while the two men

8 Batko Kovacevic -- or, Ranko Kovacevic, otherwise known as Batko, and

9 Brane Cvijic arrested him, and you, in fact, went in the car with them to

10 the -- to the police station. That's correct, isn't it?

11 A. Yes, it's all correct.

12 Q. Now, by the end of the year in 1992 during your two-day

13 activities as a -- during your day-to-day activities as a police officer,

14 you no longer saw Muslims in Prijedor; correct?

15 A. You can't really say that because there were Muslims in Prijedor,

16 they still in live in Prijedor, and they have always lived in Prijedor,

17 at least as long as I've lived there. In the period you are talking

18 about, I used to see very many Muslims in Prijedor. I was friends with

19 them. I socialised with them. I helped them when they were too afraid

20 to go out for a coffee. They asked me to join them to feel safer.

21 Q. Mr. Kvocka, Mr. Reid said to you in your record of interview:

22 "But from your day-to-day activities as a police officer, did you

23 continue to see Muslims about in Prijedor?"

24 And this is when he's talked about at the end of 1992. He

25 actually asked you to estimate the number of Muslims in -- in -- in

Page 45628

1 Opstina Prijedor, and you said that you didn't know the population. But

2 he said:

3 "From your day-to-day the activities, did you continue to see

4 Muslims about in Prijedor?"

5 You answered:

6 "No, there were departures at that time. There were departures

7 organised -- departures were organised with the Red Cross. It was no

8 problem to see that. It was evident."

9 And then Mr. Reid said:

10 "And there were departures of Muslims from the Opstina?"

11 And you said:

12 "Yes."

13 Mr. Reid said:

14 "And why did those departures take place, do you know?"

15 And you answered:

16 "The people I talked to in my neighbourhood saw no chance for

17 themselves. There were no future. They had no employment. Nothing.

18 They were also not sure of their safety and the reasons were similar.

19 Similar reasons were mentioned."

20 Now, do you remember saying that in your record of interview?

21 A. Well, that's probably what I said, which is not inconsistent with

22 my previous sentence. I did see Muslims in that time, but the fact is

23 that they -- many of them sought ways to get out through the Red Cross to

24 find a new life in the west. And people were afraid, they did not walk

25 about town so much anymore. But it's not true that there were no Muslims

Page 45629

1 at the time as you put it.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, my -- my -- my time is up. I would

3 seek leave to have an additional few minutes just to ask a couple of

4 questions on one topic, if that's okay.

5 JUDGE KWON: How much more do you have in mind?

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just a few minutes, Your Honour. I -- I just

7 need to ask a couple of questions on -- on two discrete topics.

8 JUDGE KWON: Very well. If you could conclude in five minutes.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, definitely.

10 Q. Mr. Kvocka, in paragraph 10 of your statement, you mention that

11 due to road communications, there had been -- communications had been

12 disrupted, and the corridor was only opened at the end of June, and that

13 this resulted in a loss of contract between CSB Banja Luka and the RS

14 MUP. You're not a communications expert, are you?

15 A. No, I'm no expert in communication, but I know from my personal

16 experience that I could not go anywhere further than Banja Luka or to the

17 other side. I couldn't go farther than Novi Grad or Sanski Most. Do you

18 mean these roads?

19 Q. No, no.

20 A. I could not, for instance, travel to Belgrade at the time.

21 That's what I meant when I said that, but I'm really no expert.

22 Q. But there was definitely communication between CSB Banja Luka and

23 the RS MUP because this Trial Chamber has heard evidence about that.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I draw Your Honours attention to P2743,

25 paragraph 10, where the witness spoke and -- who was a communications

Page 45630

1 expert and said there was always some way of communication, and

2 Exhibit P2760, which is the 29th of June, 1992, RS MUP report for the

3 period April to June 1992 where it states that the

4 Ministry of the Interior --

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. From time to time, I have the

6 impression too much reference is made to distract the witness's

7 attention. Why don't we just ask if witness whether there is a

8 communication?


10 Q. So you're not aware, are you, that there was no communication

11 between CSB Banja Luka -- that there was communication between

12 CSB Banja Luka and the RS MUP?

13 A. No, between Banja Luka and the RS? I don't know anything about

14 that. I was only talking about the other kind of communication. From

15 Prijedor you could go to Banja Luka. There were no obstacles. The

16 telephones also worked from time to time when there was electricity, and

17 police radio communications also worked when there was electricity. But

18 power was more out than on at the time. Roads were not passable, not

19 usable at the time. Whether some other communications were established,

20 I don't know.

21 Q. And finally, Mr. Kvocka, you said in paragraph 73 of your

22 statement that Drljaca was dismissed in 1993 for political reasons. You

23 know, don't you, that he was appointed councillor of minister, that is

24 councillor of the RS MUP minister, and a short time later he became the

25 assistant to the RS MUP -- an assistant to the RS MUP, I should say

Page 45631

1 better. You're aware of that?

2 A. I'm aware that probably in 1993 there was some minor political

3 turmoil, and Simo Drljaca was replaced as chief of the security station.

4 I hear for the first time that he was named assistant minister, or

5 advisor at the ministry at that time. I used to see him a lot at the

6 time. I know that after the establishment of the security services

7 centre, I don't know whether in 1994 or 1995, he was again appointed

8 chief of the centre. That's what I know about Simo's movements at that

9 time.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank

11 you very much.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency. Thank you.

15 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kvocka, on page 55 it was said that it was

17 an attack at a civilian populated centre. Was Kozarac completely

18 demilitarised and was it a civilian area?

19 A. When I was talking about that attack, what you cited was probably

20 the phrasing of the question, I know that Kozarac -- there was mention of

21 an ultimatum at some point. There had been before that an ultimatum to

22 surrender weapons. Kozarac had its own units and there were lists and I

23 saw them in my trial, these lists, and there were lists of the members of

24 the Green Berets and the Territorial Defence. There were photographs of

25 dug-outs, trenches, underground pharmacies. So there was an armed force,

Page 45632

1 a big force or a small force or a medium sized force, I don't know, but

2 there was some sort of force and there were Muslim policemen who had quit

3 from earlier police stations. So there was an armed formation there.

4 That's what I know.

5 Q. It was suggested on pages 52 and 53 that these were not clashes

6 but they were instead a unilateral attack by the army. Did Serbs suffer

7 any losses during these attacks?

8 A. I was not a direct participant, but I know that there was talk

9 that there had been some Serb soldiers wounded and members of the JNA,

10 which still existed and which was with the drawing [as interpreted].

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could 65 ter 17760 be shown to the

12 witness. Maybe it's on the next page. I don't see it. 65 ter 17760.

13 Yes. This looks more like it.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. This is a dispatch from the public security station Prijedor of

16 26 May. Help us, please. Does it say that Banja Luka is hereby informed

17 that war operations are still underway in Prijedor, and there follows a

18 description of enumeration of the settlements engulfed by this, Kozarac,

19 Kozarusa, Kamicani, and Trnopolje, and it says three members were wounded

20 and killed?

21 A. Yes. This was sent to the chief -- to the chief of the public

22 security station.

23 Q. Does Omarska exist at this moment?

24 A. No, Omarska does not exist at this moment. It was not

25 established yet. Some people captured in these operations were arrested

Page 45633

1 and a few days later Omarska was established.

2 Q. The third paragraph says that information exists about massacres

3 and heinous murders of the innocent non-Muslim population. What is the

4 non-Muslim population, Croats, Ukrainians?

5 A. Yes, there are Croats, Ukrainians, the Roma. There are Muslims,

6 maybe some others. I don't really know, but it was mainly the Croats.

7 Croats and Muslims were the non-Serbs in Prijedor and the rest were a

8 minority.

9 Q. Thank you. And now look at the end of the third paragraph where

10 it says that 168 people have been captured, and about 700 refugees have

11 been provided for, and the moping up has been carried out in about 70

12 per cent of the territory. As a policeman, what's the different between

13 160 who have been captured and 700 who have been provided for?

14 A. The 168 were captured in combat, and about the 700, I can say

15 that they were probably the civilians who arrived in front of the sports

16 hall in Prijedor. Even my wife took there and brought back a woman and a

17 couple of children to our apartment.

18 Q. And further down, you can see that 6 00 various weapons have been

19 seized, and so on and so forth. Can you please tell us, during the

20 conflict which started on the 24th in Kozarac, where did the civilians

21 from Kozarac go to?

22 A. I know that they arrived in front of the sports hall at first of

23 their own initiative or with somebody's help. And then I believe that a

24 majority of them went to Trnopolje. Most of the civilians went on their

25 own to Trnopolje.

Page 45634

1 Q. How do you account for the fact that the Muslims civilians fled

2 to Prijedor from the area of combat operations? Who controlled Prijedor

3 at the time?

4 Who was in power in the town that they arrived in?

5 A. The power had been taken over by the Serbs, as it were, or the

6 Serbian Democratic Party. I don't know how to formulate that. However,

7 on the 30th of April, the power had been taken over which means that it

8 was a month before the Serbs took power in Prijedor.

9 Q. And the civilians, including the 700 and those from Kozarac, fled

10 the area of combat activities and sought refuge with the Serb

11 authorities?

12 A. Yes, they did arrive and we can agree on that.

13 Q. Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted?

15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: No objection.

17 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4220, Your Honours.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the accused please be

20 asked to slow down and make pauses between questions and answers.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. What was the attitude of the police towards the paramilitaries?

23 Did the Serbian side have paramilitaries in Prijedor?

24 A. We can say that there were renegades, those who were not under

25 the regular police and military formations. There were individuals or

Page 45635

1 minor groups possibly, and the attitude was such that they were in

2 constant conflict, one could say. I believe that some were processed by

3 the military bodies. I believe that there were various activities in

4 that respect.

5 Q. Thank you. And what about the Serbs who were in possession of

6 illegal weapons or traded in illegal weapons? How were they treated?

7 JUDGE KWON: Although there is no objection from the Prosecution,

8 but I'm not sure whether this issue was discussed.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I was on my feet.

10 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes. All right.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: And neither was the issue of paramilitaries, and

12 I let that one go, but not this one.

13 JUDGE KWON: Please move on to another topic, Mr. Karadzic.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. On page 51 of today's transcript, it was claimed that it was

16 suggested that only the non-Serb population was asked to hand over

17 weapons, and the witness was asked whether such an appeal was also sent

18 to the Serbs. What I'm trying to establish here is whether that implied

19 a legally owned or illegally owned weapons, and if the Serbs were in

20 possession of illegal weapons, how were they treated? I believe that

21 this was a subject of the cross-examination.

22 In more general terms, Mr. Kvocka, can you tell us why were Serbs

23 detained in Omarska?

24 A. First of all, when we were talking about appeals to hand over

25 weapons, it was not about the surrender of weapons but there were Serbs

Page 45636

1 who were involved in the illegal trade of weapons and they were arrested.

2 And not only those who -- that I mentioned before who were detained in

3 Omarska for the lack of a better place to put them. There was a woman

4 and two men who were detained there while I was there. I don't know

5 about what happened later.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can the witness please be

7 shown D1841.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did both Muslims and Serbs respond to the call-ups by the

10 Territorial Defence and the army in equal measures? Or better say, who

11 had militaries and who had paramilitaries?

12 A. In very general terms, the Muslim military were paramilitaries,

13 and the Serbian army was a legal army, if we look at that period.

14 Q. And now would you please look at this report which was drafted on

15 the 18th of May, 1992, and could you please tell us something about the

16 claims with regard to the existence of armed units in Ljubija,

17 Donja Ljubija, Carakovo, Kozarac, and Kozarusa. How does that

18 information tally with what you know and what was the reason for which

19 those groups were being asked to disarm?

20 A. The local communes which had majority Croat or Muslims

21 populations had their organised military units which were not legal.

22 That's why it was, as Madam Prosecutor called it -- an ultimatum was

23 issued to surrender the weapons. The weapons were then seized. There

24 were individuals who surrendered their weapons. I remember some of the

25 details of the surrender of weapons in town more than in the villages,

Page 45637

1 because the villages did not surrender weapons easily.

2 Q. Thank you. What happened to the people who surrendered their

3 weapons voluntarily?

4 A. They were issued with a receipt for the weapons that were stored

5 in the building of the police station.

6 Q. There were also questions about the authorities or, rather, the

7 police and their attitude towards those who broke law or breached

8 discipline.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

10 65 ter 18296. I'm afraid that we don't have a translation but we will

11 ask the witness to help us with that.

12 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Perhaps Mr. Karadzic would like to put a

14 question to the witness before the document's being brought up on the

15 screen?


17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that I already did that.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. What was the attitude of the official police, and you are a

20 professional policeman, towards the police officers who did not comply

21 with the rules and regulations?

22 A. The official position was always the same, and that is that no

23 breaches of discipline were allowed with regard to the rules of service.

24 That was the main position that always permeated all the discussions and

25 it was always repeated and reiterated to the new recruits who had joined

Page 45638

1 the police without a particular training.

2 JUDGE KWON: Before we --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 18296.

4 JUDGE KWON: Before we see that document, could you not put some

5 more specific questions to the witness?

6 MR KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. As far as I can put it, did the police structures allow breaches

8 of discipline and violation of the rules of service of their members?

9 What was the position with regard to that?

10 A. I believe that no such thing was allowed, even during the times

11 of turmoil. Some people were called to task, they were prosecuted, but I

12 can't give you any of the details because I was not involved in any of

13 those matters. To me, personally, nobody ever said that I should do

14 something that was not good. It was always repeated that I should do

15 things in accordance with the law and the rules that prevailed that were

16 our own positive police rules and laws.

17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, your question was whether the police

20 structure allowed breaches of discipline and violation of the rules of

21 service, et cetera, and the witness answered no. Why do we need for that

22 document? I don't see the need or foundation to seek to put further

23 documents to the witness.

24 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, does that mean that there is no

25 issue about the witness's credibility that --

Page 45639

1 JUDGE KWON: No, but I asked Mr. Karadzic to put some more

2 specific question with respect to the forthcoming document.

3 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, if he establishes that the

4 authorities didn't have a policy of not tolerating these breaches and

5 then he shows a document which shows what the policy was and ask him how

6 this jives with his statement, what is wrong with that?

7 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry to interrupt you, I understand your point,

8 but why could Mr. Karadzic not put some more specifics that forms the

9 content of the forthcoming document, where the witness can answer the

10 question or not, and he may then put the document to the witness?

11 MR. ROBINSON: Well, I think we are both disadvantaged by the

12 fact that the document isn't translated, so we don't know its exact

13 contents. But from what I can see from the description of the document,

14 the document appears to be a statement of the policy of the authorities.

15 It seems like this is directly specific enough.

16 JUDGE KWON: Given the circumstances, I will allow the accused to

17 continue. But let us see. If you could advise in the future about the

18 manner in which to proceed on the part of the Defence.

19 Shall we continue.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, Your Honour, I have translations of

21 the document.

22 JUDGE KWON: Which is not in e-court.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, the --

24 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Exactly. It's not -- it's not uploaded.

Page 45640

1 JUDGE KWON: Shall we put it on the ELMO.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Usher.

3 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version is in e-court.

5 Can the Serbian version be displayed, 65 ter 18296. We don't need two

6 Serbian versions. One will do.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. This is a document issued by the public security station in

9 Prijedor on the 11th of May. It conveys what had happened in Banja Luka

10 on the 6th of May at a meeting of the council of the security services

11 centre; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, I can read that in the heading.

13 Q. Very well. I will skip everything up to paragraph 9 where it

14 says:

15 "The workers who are involved in criminal and illegal activities

16 in the public security stations, and if such people exist they will be

17 excluded from work and they will be prosecuted."

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his questions.

19 Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question.

20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you repeat your answer.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question.

22 JUDGE KWON: Do we need it?

23 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what was your last question after reading out

24 this sentence.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was probably

Page 45641

1 speeding.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The question was: Did you know -- were you aware of this

4 position of the leadership of the MUP in your region with regard to the

5 criminal behaviour of MUP members?

6 A. Yes, I already started answering by saying that it was a well

7 known position. I would like to say that that was said to us even before

8 this conclusion was reached, even before the meeting where this was

9 discussed took place. I believe that it was told us at our many meetings

10 that those things should be identified, forbidden, prosecuted, and that

11 any failures in the work of the police should be prevented, especially if

12 members of the police were involved in criminal activities.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the following

14 page, paragraph 25.

15 JUDGE KWON: Do you have that in English, paragraph 25?

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. It says here when it comes to disarming in the territory of the

18 public security station, you should not take any measures until further

19 notice. Does this mean, Mr. Kvocka, that on the 11th of May your public

20 security station was still not intent on carrying out any disarming?

21 A. Yes, it says so here. There were no activities on the ground

22 with regard to disarming, as far as I know.

23 Q. Why and when did the need arise to carry out disarming?

24 A. There were some incidents. There were attacks on police and army

25 members, and that's when ultimatums ensued. That's the sequence of

Page 45642

1 events as I know it.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm positive that this is already

5 an exhibit, and I'm just trying to locate the exhibit number. It's a

6 Prosecution exhibit.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. But we are talking about first two pages,

8 given that it contains several separate documents.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE KWON: Shall we temporarily assign Defence number for the

11 first two pages.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4221, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe that we will

15 no longer need the ELMO.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you are saying that on the 11th of May, as we can see

18 from the document, that there are no such intentions, and you're saying

19 that the need to disarm people arose after the incidents.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

21 65 ter 18320.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Just a while ago you said that a lot of people did surrender

24 their weapons and they didn't suffer any problems as a result of that.

25 In what villages did the people surrender their weapons? What -- were

Page 45643

1 those villages subsequently attacked?

2 A. I know that most often it was people from urban areas who did

3 that on an individual basis. Now, I'm not 100 per cent sure whether this

4 village called Cela, I think, I think that they also handed over weapons

5 in an organised way once this handover started. And I think that there

6 weren't any conflicts -- actually, I know that. As far as the village of

7 Cela is concerned, there weren't any attacks. There weren't any clashes.

8 There was no war. There were no clashes between anyone. There weren't

9 any people who got killed, et cetera.

10 Q. Thank you. Could you please focus on this document, the

11 5th of July, 1992. This is Prijedor reporting to Banja Luka about the

12 disarmament plan; namely, that after the incidents on the 22nd,

13 et cetera, that there was a conflict. And it says here in paragraph 3

14 towards the end:

15 "After the situation had calmed down, the police and military

16 police carried out joint moping-up operations in Trnopolje, Suhi Brod,

17 Cela, Gomjenica, Donja and Gornja Puharska. In the course of these

18 operations, we wish to note that citizens collected weapons themselves

19 and handed them over to the army and police."

20 Now, these locations mentioned in paragraph 3, were they

21 attacked?

22 A. These locations that were referred to here were not attacked at

23 all. Even without this document, I knew about Cela, and I didn't even

24 think of Gomjenica. There are two Gomjenicas, a Serb Gomjenica and a

25 Muslim Gomjenica. And there is Gornja Puharska too, and now I see that

Page 45644

1 there weren't any armed conflicts there and also that there was no

2 disarmament or anything like that.

3 Q. Thank you. Now we see a list here of all the things that were

4 handed over, and then here in number 7 it says:

5 "Our station's records regarding seized and collected weapons and

6 ammunition are as follows:"

7 So what was the total number of villages around Prijedor that

8 were at war? We see here that some were not at war at all. Now how many

9 were at war against the Serbs? Can you refer to them?

10 A. I think it was only the area of Kozarac and the area of Brdo.

11 These are two or three villages. I cannot say exactly. Hambarine.

12 There is this other village there that is part of this Brdo. These other

13 areas, I am not aware of any conflicts anywhere in the other Muslim

14 villages; that is to say, only Kozarac and the area of Brdo.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

17 admitted.

18 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Ms. Sutherland?

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4222, Your Honours.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. We were talking about whether these were attacks or conflicts, so

24 I would -- so on the Serb side, were there any casualties and if so when?

25 Individually or whatever. For example, can you recall any colleagues of

Page 45645

1 yours from the police force that fell victim?

2 A. Well now given the time distance and without any documents, it's

3 a bit difficult. I know that during the attack against Prijedor, by the

4 Muslim army, I mean, there were quite a few Serb casualties and they were

5 all members of the police force at the time. It was 18, 19, I cannot say

6 exactly. Probably somewhere there are lists of fatalities. These were

7 people who worked on securing various facilities.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

10 1D16017, but we do not have it in e-court. So could the Serbian version

11 be shown on the ELMO first and then the English version. The Serb

12 version can actually be given to the witness, a hard copy, and the

13 English version can be placed on the ELMO.

14 JUDGE KWON: Can you explain to us how this arose from the line

15 of cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the Prosecution suggested

17 that these were one-sided attacks against civilian areas, and the witness

18 said that these were clashes, conflicts, and now let us see when the

19 first Serbs fell victim. And this has to do with policemen only now.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe a bit later there were some

22 other combatants. However, could this please be shown now.

23 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have it now.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 45646

1 Q. Can you read it out, please, Radenko?

2 A. Djapa.

3 Q. Do you know this? Do you know of this case that the Serb

4 policeman, Djapa, was killed on the 30th of April and then another one on

5 the 9th and then another one on the 24th? Do you know of these cases?

6 A. Yes, I know these colleagues personally, most of them. And the

7 cases are well known, too. Radenko Djapa was the first casualty after

8 the Serb government was established.

9 THE ACCUSED: Show me another part of the page.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So we see the casualties here on the 24th, the 25th, 26th of May,

12 and the 30th of May. Do you know all these people and do you know that

13 all these people were killed?

14 A. Yes, yes, I know. It was individual until the 30th of May, as I

15 said, and then during this one night, the 30th of May, there were 17

16 victims. All of them were members of the active or reserve police force

17 that were in charge of securing certain facilities during the course of

18 that night.

19 Q. So it was the 30th of May, then the 1st of June, the 4th of June.

20 Do you know of all those cases?

21 A. Yes, yes, those are the deaths that occurred during that time,

22 the people who were killed.

23 Q. Do you know of these cases? And this goes up to the

24 17th of June. There is a third page there, too.

25 A. I have all of this until the 20th of June.

Page 45647

1 Q. The ones that you can see here up until the 17th of June, are you

2 aware of all those cases?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 THE ACCUSED: Next page, please, in English.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. What about these cases, do you know of them?

7 A. Radenko Grbic, Drago Aleksic, yes, yes, all of these people got

8 killed by the remaining members of the unit in Kozarac that was not

9 involved in Kozarac. They appeared on the approaches to the road after

10 that. That's what I seem to recall.

11 Q. So from the 22nd of May until the 20th of June, over 50 persons

12 got killed; right?

13 A. When we add all of this up in terms of locations and dates, I

14 haven't actually done the counting, but I just know for that one night

15 between the 18th and 19th, as I've already mentioned --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We did not hear the

17 question put by Mr. Karadzic.

18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, if you could put your question

19 again.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Percentage-wise, how much is that -- or, rather, in terms of

22 proportion, you don't have to give the exact percentage. In terms of

23 proportion, how big is that as far as the police is concerned?

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's hard for me to tell.

Page 45648

1 JUDGE KWON: Please put a pause. You just start answering the

2 question while we are hearing the interpretation of Mr. Karadzic's

3 question. Yes, could you answer the question again.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You can answer.

6 A. It is hard for me to tell you what the percentages are

7 100 per cent sure, because I don't know the actual numbers for the

8 reserve police if you put all the areas together, but it must be

9 10 per cent taking into account the entire police force in the entire

10 region of Prijedor and the surrounding police stations. When you put all

11 of that together, then it's perhaps even more than 10 per cent.

12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kvocka, what is your view of that since this is

13 not the front line. This is our territory in depth. What is your view

14 of these losses?

15 A. Well, what is my view? It is terrifying. It's not right. These

16 people were killed by illegal forces. Well, then there is this other

17 group. When there was this attack against Prijedor, it was an attempt

18 made by Muslim units to take the town itself; whereas the rest, these

19 were individual cases, a kind of terrorism. I don't know how to define

20 it now. Radenko Djapa, the first one who was killed, he was shot in the

21 street. It is a classical act of terrorism. Or these other people from

22 Kozarac who were killed, their tractor was seized from them and they were

23 set on fire. I cannot remember all the details now. I could be

24 reminded. So there were a lot of acts of terrorism. And it would not be

25 right not to take a view on this, if you will.

Page 45649

1 Q. Thank you.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted.

3 JUDGE KWON: Shall we mark it for identification -- oh, I'm

4 sorry. Yes it's -- we have it in English as well. We'll admit it.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4223, Your Honours.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You were also asked about departures, about people leaving. Was

8 it only Muslims and Croats that were leaving or did Serbs leave too? And

9 when did the population start leaving the municipality of Prijedor?

10 Before the war did people leave?

11 A. Well, there were individual departures before the war, too,

12 because in Bosnia from 1990 onwards there was some turbulence, political

13 turbulence. So people who were thinking along those lines, they could

14 assume that there might be some conflicts and then on an individual basis

15 people would leave. People left before the conflict, both one and the

16 other as far as I know.

17 Q. Thank you. The police, the members of the Prijedor police, did

18 they expel Muslims from Prijedor? Did they actively expel them?

19 A. I don't have that impression. That's not what I feel, that they

20 were involved in some kind of actively expulsion or that some kind of

21 measures of coercion were taken forcing people to leave. I did not hear

22 of that, I did not see that.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

25 65 ter 18427. The number is right. Excellencies, can we go on for

Page 45650

1 another five minutes or so? We started late anyway. And then I will be

2 done.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. This is dated the 5th of July. Again, could you please take a

6 look at this. At the time, were there this many refugees from Croatia

7 and is it correct? How does this fit into your own experience, these

8 arrivals and departures?

9 A. Yes, yes, I see what this is all about. These are Serbs who were

10 from other republics where there already was a conflict, and then they

11 were coming into Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Now, can you tell us this: Sometimes we have a problem with

13 language, here. There was pressure to leave. Was it the authorities

14 that were exerting pressure against the non-Serbs to leave, or was it the

15 other way around? Was it the non-Serbs and even Serbs who were exerting

16 pressure vis-a-vis the government to let them leave Prijedor?

17 A. I've already said that I could not observe any methods that the

18 government used to force Serbs or non-Serbs to leave. They probably

19 wouldn't want to expel the Serbs. But I know from my own experience, my

20 family is of mixed ethnicity, so I know relatives of my wife who asked

21 for this. There were cases in the collection centre in Trnopolje. They

22 dealt with some kind of organised departures abroad through the

23 Red Cross. People would come at their own initiative. Even some who had

24 no transportation from Prijedor, they would walk to Trnopolje, spend a

25 few days there, and then the International Red Cross would write their

Page 45651

1 names down and then they could leave. It is hard to go into the reasons

2 and motives, if that's what you meant. People did not feel safe. There

3 were conflicts throughout the former Yugoslavia. They were already

4 there. Or there were conflicts in the making. In Croatia and Slovenia,

5 there was a conflicts already going on, so I cannot go into the reasons

6 and modifies. But I never read or heard that someone said in any

7 proclamation or in any other document that all non-Serbs would have to

8 leave.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.


12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4224 Your Honours.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You mentioned during the cross-examination that you were not

15 satisfied with the behaviour of the special detachment of the police from

16 Banja Luka that came to help. What was the position of Mejakic and

17 others with regard to this detachment and do you know what the position

18 was of the centre of security services from Banja Luka vis-a-vis that

19 detachment?

20 A. We, the local policemen who worked there, had certain problems

21 with them and we were not satisfied. They were there for only a few days

22 and we tried to deal with the situation as much as we could. Zeljko

23 talked to Simo Drljaca in order to have that unit be withdrawn from the

24 area, and eventually that did happen.

25 Q. Does that mean that the security services centre in Banja Luka

Page 45652

1 took into account Mr. Mejakic's intervention?

2 A. I believe that I was present when the order came for them to

3 withdraw urgently.

4 Q. Thank you. Were they members of the active police force? Were

5 they professional policemen? What were their composition?

6 A. They came from elsewhere, so I can't be sure. However, judging

7 by their conduct and behaviour and the way they treated people, I'm sure

8 that none of them were professional police officers.

9 Q. Did you hear how they behaved when they were not in the camp,

10 when they were in other places?

11 A. I didn't know much about that. The only thing I knew was that

12 that unit was very quickly disbanded. Somebody from Banja Luka told us

13 that and we were satisfied, and we thought that we were also contributors

14 to that success.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

16 65 ter 5505.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Please pay attention. The date is 24 June, immediately after

19 their stay in Omarska. The public security station is asking the

20 security services centre something, or rather they report the special

21 detachment as behaving badly, they provide example, and they ask

22 Mr. Zupljanin to take measures. Some names are mentioned here; right?

23 Can you please look at the first and second paragraph?

24 A. Yes, I'm looking at it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following page,

Page 45653

1 please.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Did you know Zoran Janjetovic, who was mentioned in the second

4 paragraph? He was beaten.

5 A. No, I can't remember whether I knew him personally.

6 Q. What was his ethnicity?

7 A. He is a Serb. I'm sure that he's a Serb.

8 Q. Thank you. And now --

9 A. Well, he could be a Croat judging by the name, but I believe that

10 he is a Serb, as far as I can tell.

11 Q. And now can you look at the last photograph where Mr. Tutus

12 writes to Mr. Zupljanin, and he says:

13 "We firmly believe in your determination to have the service

14 function in accordance with the rules on the work of organs of the

15 interior ...," and so on and so forth, "we sincerely hope you will

16 undertake measures which fall under your jurisprudence and that such

17 unwelcome situations will disappear in the near future."

18 Did they disappear?

19 A. I believe so, to a large extent. I am not aware of any

20 subsequent incidents. When it comes to that unit, I learned that it was

21 disbanded.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE KWON: I didn't know that but we need to rise right now.

24 We'll continue -- Mr. Karadzic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

Page 45654

1 Perhaps I -- I need another five minutes, but I can take those after the

2 break. Can this be admitted?

3 JUDGE KWON: We'll continue after the break. We'll resume at

4 half past 1.00.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.44 p.m.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

10 Well, before that, I just wanted to tell you that we are sitting

11 for the remainder of the session without Judge Lattanzi pursuant to

12 Rule 15 bis. She cannot be with us due to her urgent personal matters.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Kvocka --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, in fact, this

17 document has not received a number. Could it be admitted?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4225, Your Honours.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Kvocka, you were asked about a brawl, a fist-fight, or

22 rather, beating of prisoners. Was it a rule or an exception, the

23 beatings of prisoners?

24 A. I believe I've already answered that those were individual

25 incidents that occurred. We can't say they didn't happen. But it was

Page 45655

1 far from being the rule or a regular situation, and I'm talking all the

2 time about the period when I was there.

3 Q. Can you tell us out of the 2.500 people who were there, how many

4 were beaten in total?

5 A. That's difficult to say now. I told you, I know about some

6 individual incidents and some reports about some other people. It could

7 be perhaps ten people who were beaten apart from the individual incidents

8 that I could describe in greater detail. Perhaps not more than ten

9 people were beaten, or at least I had the impression they were.

10 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mr. Kvocka, are you saying

11 that not more than ten people were beaten out of 2.500 detainees at the

12 time? Is it what you're saying now?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That's what I said. It

14 was my impression that another ten people were beaten in addition to the

15 incidents that I've described in detail during my time at the camp and my

16 entire tenure at the investigating centre.

17 JUDGE KWON: And is that consistent with what you heard during

18 your trial?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, during my trial I heard that

20 after I left some more incidents occurred and more people were beaten, at

21 least according to the evidence presented here.

22 JUDGE KWON: So what is the truth as far as you know, Mr. Kvocka?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot make any judgements about

24 what is true -- what was true after I left. I am talking only about the

25 time when I was there and what I know. Maybe what I know is also not

Page 45656

1 precise. Maybe more people were beaten, but I don't know about that. I

2 didn't have the impression that it was so.

3 JUDGE KWON: Then where did that less than ten people come at

4 all?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand the question.

6 JUDGE KWON: If you cannot make any judgement at the moment, on

7 what basis could you say that less than ten people were beaten at the

8 time?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I had the impression

10 during the time I was there from the stories, from the talk among the

11 prisoners and the guards. I had the impression that there were about ten

12 cases of people beaten or somehow physically abused. That was my

13 knowledge while I was there. Plus, the individual incidents I've

14 described.

15 JUDGE KWON: You formed that impression based on what,

16 Mr. Kvocka?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of my personal

18 observations of peoples' injuries, or somebody said that someone else had

19 been beaten.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

21 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Concerning the beating of Mr. Civac, who was a member of the

25 police force, you said that it was a matter of personal or professional

Page 45657

1 revenge. Could you tell us something about the motives of those who beat

2 him?

3 A. It's difficult to talk about their real motives. They probably

4 saw him as a work colleague, a former work colleague who suddenly found

5 himself on the other side. Some earlier incidents occurred because the

6 assailant's relatives had been killed in the conflict. It's difficult to

7 judge the motives now, but these could have been some of them.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript did not mention that

9 it was a kind of revenge, which was unacceptable but it could be a

10 motive.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Did you say that?

13 A. I said revenge in any case is not acceptable. But looking at

14 these incidents, some possible motives are if a work colleague or a

15 member of your family is killed, then a guard could try to take revenge

16 in that way.

17 Q. Tell us, out of the guards, how many were inclined to such

18 behaviour? You don't have to tell us the names. Just tell me the

19 number.

20 A. Two or three guards all in all. Two or three guards acted that

21 way. I cannot remember the names now. It would not be a problem for me

22 to mention them, but I can't remember now. But the figure was two or

23 three guards who deviated from their regular work procedure.

24 Q. How was it viewed by the shift leaders, to the best of your

25 knowledge?

Page 45658

1 A. I believe they tried to prevent this kind of thing.

2 Q. Thank you. On page 17 of today's transcript and related to

3 paragraph 72 of your statement, it says Mr. Gruban told you about one of

4 your brothers-in-law. He was concerned that he might fall into the

5 category going to Manjaca. Tell me, on what did it depend whether

6 somebody would go to Manjaca or released to go home?

7 A. From what I knew while working at the investigating centre, these

8 categories were decided depending on whether the people concerned were

9 some sort of aiders and abetters or direct participants in the conflict

10 or were not involved at all. So I found out later about one of my

11 brothers-in-law, that he found into the category of aider and abetter.

12 So he fell into a category that would not be released after the centre

13 was disbanded but that he would be sent to Manjaca. But through some of

14 his own connections he managed to avoid that.

15 Q. On page 51, the question suggested that civilians were detained

16 in Omarska. Tell the Chamber, please, under what circumstances can a

17 civilian be considered to have violated the law? Were they detained as

18 civilians or was there some other reason?

19 A. Well, as far as I'm concerned it's a pretty relative thing. If

20 you judge by the way they were dressed, many of them looked like

21 civilians. However, the investigations showed that they had taken part

22 in the conflict. Many of them had weapons that were taken away from them

23 during capture. So this term "civilian" is very relative, although some

24 people used it. Those who were released later were partly civilians and

25 they were captured together with others. Maybe there was a small number

Page 45659

1 of people like that, but I cannot judge about that because I was not

2 involved in the investigations. But you cannot apply to them generally

3 the term "civilians" because you can mount an armed insurgency while

4 wearing civilian clothes. So under certain circumstances even a civilian

5 can become a prisoner of war.

6 Q. And my last question, Mr. Kvocka: Generally speaking, did you

7 have any knowledge about my personal views concerning respect for the

8 law, the rules of warfare, humanitarian law, et cetera?

9 A. I can remember that many times on television and in the press,

10 although the press was not always available, there were statements on

11 many occasions that international humanitarian organisations have to be

12 respected, prisoners of war have to be respected, as well as civilian

13 population in towns, and I believe some specific orders were even issued

14 by you or by the MUP. But according to your public statements, your view

15 was that international conventions and morale principles and principles

16 of human dignity have to be respected.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kvocka, for testifying.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, your

19 Excellencies.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE KWON: During your cross-examination, Mr. Kvocka, it's

22 transcript page 32, you said, I quote:

23 "I think that it would not be fair on my behalf to say to the

24 Defence team," I mean Mr. Karadzic's Defence team, "what I heard during

25 the trial which took place in 2001."

Page 45660

1 So could you explain to us why it would not be fair on your part

2 to tell the Karadzic team that you -- the things that you came to know

3 during your trial?

4 A. I've already forgotten what events were meant in the question,

5 but what I wanted to say was that the investigator who contacted me

6 wanted to know about my direct knowledge and all these other things that

7 I learned later. Perhaps I didn't even think of it, but I cannot claim

8 with any certainty that something I heard here is necessarily true.

9 Those were the reasons that I had in mind when I thought about this. I

10 focused only on what I personally observed, heard, saw.

11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then that concludes your evidence,

12 Mr. Kvocka. On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your

13 coming to The Hague to give it. You are now free to go.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I thank you, too, and

15 I'm glad if I managed to be of assistance.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE KWON: And I take it the next witness is ready?

18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. It's Dragan Radetic.

19 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, are you going to cover Mr. Radetic,

20 the next one? Could you explain to us why Rule 90(E) advice is warranted

21 with respect to this witness?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Because the witness worked in the investigative

23 centre at Keraterm and also because he was a military prosecutor or

24 deputy military prosecutor subsequent to his duties in Keraterm.

25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.

Page 45661

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Radetic. Please be seated and make

8 yourself comfortable. Thank you.

9 I take it you know this very well, but before you commence your

10 evidence, Mr. Radetic, I must draw your attention to a rule of evidence

11 that we have here at the international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).

12 Under this rule, you may object to answering any question from

13 Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from the Judges if you believe that

14 your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence. In this

15 context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an

16 admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might

17 provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

18 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

19 consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

20 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question. But in

21 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

22 under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

23 against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false

24 testimony. Do you understand that, Mr. Radetic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 45662

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

3 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Radetic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. I am one of those people who speak very fast, but I have to ask

7 you to mind the rhythm and leave a pause between question and answer so

8 we don't have to repeat things for the transcript. Have you given a

9 statement to my Defence team?

10 A. Yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9660 is the document I would like

12 to show the witness.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Look at the left side of the screen, please. Now we see both

15 versions of your statement.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Have you read and signed this statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us show the last page so the

20 witness can identify his signature.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Is this your signature?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Does this statement faithfully reflect what you have

25 stated to the Defence team?

Page 45663

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. If I were to put to you the same questions as asked

3 during the taking of this statement, would your answers be essentially

4 the same?

5 A. They would be absolutely the same.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

8 Rule 92 ter. We have one document.

9 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objections, Ms. Sutherland?

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive this 92 ter statement as well as one

12 associated exhibit.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The statement will be

14 Exhibit D4226, and 1D16056 will be Exhibit D4227.

15 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now read in

17 English a brief summarise of Mr. Dragan Radetic's statement.

18 [In English] Dragan Radetic is a lawyer by profession and worked

19 at the Prijedor prosecutor's office until 1990. He was mobilised in 1991

20 as a member of the military police and was later transferred to the

21 military court and the prosecutor's office in Banja Luka.

22 The situation in Prijedor municipality was calm until Muslim

23 extremists in Hambarine village attacked a vehicle with four soldiers.

24 Following the incident, the citizens of Hambarine hamlet were called to

25 hand over their weapons and identify those who murdered the soldiers at

Page 45664

1 the check-point. Since they failed to do so, the legal authorities had

2 to intervene.

3 Regarding the check-points in Kozarac, the Muslim extremists set

4 them up on the Banja Luka-Prijedor main road, and as a result, it was

5 impossible to supply food and water to the army units in the Kozarac

6 sector. On 24th of May 1992, an attempt of the 43rd Motorised Brigade to

7 make this road viable resulted in a clash with Muslim extremists. After

8 the fighting broke out in Kozarac, many armed groups of Muslim extremists

9 escaped and hid in the hamlets on the slope of Mount Kozara. They

10 represented a great thread for the citizens of Prijedor and committed

11 crimes against soldiers and civilians.

12 In a certain period the situation in Prijedor municipality was

13 chaotic. All the telephone lines were down, there was no electricity or

14 water, and the roads were closed as was the corridor towards Serbia.

15 There was a shortage of medicine and food. In that chaos in Prijedor

16 municipality, certain groups and individuals tried to cause even more

17 chaos and panic among the civilian population for their own personal

18 profit. There were cases of civilians murdered, houses torched, and

19 property looted, not only Muslim and Croatian but Serbian as well.

20 Mr. Radetic never heard or saw anyone from the Serbian political,

21 military, or police leaderships to plan the ethnic cleansing of the

22 non-Serbian population. After the war broke out, many civilians, not

23 only Muslim and Croatian but Serbian as well, wanted to leave Prijedor

24 municipality for the simple reason that the most basic living conditions

25 were not existent.

Page 45665

1 After the communication system was set up, the authorities tried

2 to establish a security system as soon as possible and protect everyone.

3 The civilian authorities, the police, and the army took measures within

4 their purview against violators of public law and order and those who

5 committed crimes. The main problem in the work of the military police

6 was the fact that no military court had been established until September

7 or October 1992, so there was no place to process the recorded

8 perpetrators of crimes. Therefore, according to the Law on

9 Criminal Procedure, the police organ was obliged to release the people in

10 custody after 72 hours, although some people who had committed serious

11 crimes were sometimes held longer than the legal dead-line.

12 As a result of the chaos, the existence of the paramilitary

13 formations and the general lack of safety, many Muslim civilians went to

14 the Trnopolje camp on their own accord. The detention centres in

15 Prijedor municipality housed those persons who were captured or detained

16 by Bosnian Serb forces, and among these persons there were also those who

17 never participated in the armed clashes. Therefore, there was an

18 important differentiation between armed and unarmed civilians during

19 combat operations.

20 In the late May 1992, Mr. Radetic was ordered to report at

21 Keraterm and be a member of one of the commissions investigating the

22 people in custody. This task was to be -- his task was to be present

23 during the work of that commission and to monitor whether the statements

24 of certain people will contain elements of crimes against the armed

25 forces. During the 15 days he work there, the commission did not find

Page 45666

1 any fact related to crimes against the armed forces. That means "army."

2 During this time, about 50 people were interviewed. All of them were

3 adult men and they all were interviewed individually, treated properly,

4 and there was no case of verbal and physical torture.

5 During the time spent in Keraterm, Mr. Radetic never saw anyone

6 get beaten on their arrival or during interviews. There was a serious

7 problem with electricity at Keraterm and in all of Prijedor, and there

8 were constant electricity restrictions, so the water-pumps did not work

9 either for the Muslims or Serbs. In addition, there was also a great

10 food shortage for everyone. After 15 days, Mr. Radetic was transferred

11 to the crime department of the military police, where he dealt with the

12 property crimes. In over 90 per cent of the cases, the suspects were

13 Serbs and orders were issued to take those people into custody.

14 During the war and the work at the police and military judicial

15 organs, Mr. Radetic had quite a few problems with people who abused both

16 the Serbian and the Muslim population. Several attempts were made to

17 process these people. As a result, Mr. Radetic was beaten by a group of

18 such men in the August 1992 in Prijedor. Those were the Serbs.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I apologise. There is

20 a mistake. It was in August 1992.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. It is possible that I misspoke.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yes, it's correct. It was in 1992.

25 THE ACCUSED: And this is a short summary. At that moment, I

Page 45667

1 don't have any question for Mr. Radetic.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Radetic, as you have noted, your evidence in

3 chief in this case has been admitted in writing; that is, through your

4 written witness statement. Now you'll be cross-examined by the

5 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

6 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

8 Q. Mr. Radetic, in late May you were assigned to work as an

9 interrogator in the Keraterm camp; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you were assigned by Lieutenant-Colonel Mistrovic, who was

12 the chief of the security organ in the VRS 43rd Motorised Brigade, yes?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. So you're familiar with the layout of the camp as a result of the

15 work there; correct?

16 A. No. May I explain?

17 Q. Well, you knew where you -- where you went to conduct the

18 interrogations, did you not?

19 A. It was a huge building and a huge perimeter. The investigators

20 and professionals who were engaged there entered the big complex from one

21 side, and the camp was from an entirely different side. So I can

22 guarantee that none of us, myself included, managed to see those places

23 where people were incarcerated and kept because there they entered the

24 perimeter through a completely different gate; whereas the guards from

25 the civilian police brought those who were investigated through some

Page 45668

1 passages, or through I don't know what, up to us.

2 Q. Mr. --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript. I want to clarify

4 certain things and to be very precise, if I may.


6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said on line 7 that "I

7 guarantee for myself and I believe that I guarantee for others." He

8 didn't say that he guarantees for everybody.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can guarantee only for

10 myself because I don't know. I can't be sure that some of the other

11 people didn't go there on their own to check the situation.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Radetic, please put a pause if you want to say

13 something after Mr. Karadzic's words. You just spoke while we're hearing

14 the interpretation. Please bear that in mind.

15 Please continue.


17 Q. Mr. Radetic, I want to -- to show you a photograph and I want you

18 to mark on there as quickly and as efficiently as you can a number of

19 things.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can have 65 ter number P00541.

21 Q. Do you recognise Keraterm in that photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. With the help of the usher, I want you to mark the direction from

24 where you came to the --

25 A. I can't see that in this photo. You would have to show me the

Page 45669

1 lateral side of the building. You -- from this side, you can't see the

2 gate through which I entered because we did not enter the building from

3 here.

4 Q. You can't see the gate. Can you -- can you mark on there the

5 entrance to where you went into the interrogation -- [Overlapping

6 speakers] to the interrogation rooms?

7 A. No, no, because we did not enter the building from this side.

8 This photo does not depict the entrance that we used. That entrance was

9 on the opposite side of the building. If we can say that this is the

10 front of the building, then one could easily say that we entered the

11 building from the back of it.

12 Q. Do you see the -- the long -- on the right-hand side of the

13 photograph, the lower building that has halfway up the -- halfway up the

14 wall white? Do you see that -- [Overlapping speakers]

15 A. No, no, no. I can't see that.

16 Q. I've got a picture in front of me. Do you recognise this, here,

17 where it's white?

18 A. This is the same building. However, its lower or its bottom part

19 is painted white.

20 Q. Are you aware that detainees were kept in that building in four

21 different rooms?

22 A. Not officially. I remember that on several occasions I would go

23 to Banja Luka from Prijedor on official building [as interpreted]. And

24 from the highway I could see a -- larger groups or number of people on

25 this side of Keraterm, in this side of the building.

Page 45670

1 Q. And you never once, the whole time that you were in Keraterm

2 camp, you didn't walk around the front to -- to those rooms that we can

3 see on the right-hand side of the picture?

4 A. No, I never --

5 Q. Now --

6 A. -- went through there. I repeat --

7 Q. No, no, no.

8 A. -- in Keraterm --

9 Q. I know tat you said you didn't go -- come from this direction to

10 go into the room where you conducted the interrogations, but at any time

11 when you were working in the Keraterm camp, did you come around to this

12 side of the building to where the detainees were kept?

13 A. No, never. I never passed by that side. There was my gate, and

14 when my working day was over, I was in a haste to go home or to a

15 different job because I served in the military police and in the barracks

16 at the same time, so you will understand why I was in a haste to leave.

17 Q. And the military barracks that you went to as your second job

18 after you'd been working in the Keraterm camp during the day,

19 whereabouts -- whereabouts was that building?

20 A. That building was on the regional road leading to Dubica, and the

21 barrack's name was Zarko Zrenjanin.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have 65 ter number 25830, please. I'm

23 sorry, I'm sorry. Just before that photograph goes away, Exhibit P541.

24 Q. The interrogation rooms were in the -- on the first floor of --

25 on the left-hand side of this building; correct?

Page 45671

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can have 65 ter number 25830.

4 Q. This is an aerial photograph. Are you able to recognise the

5 Keraterm camp?

6 A. Just a moment. It's not easy. Can somebody help me? I believe

7 that this is the --

8 Q. If you use the pen, the usher will assist you. Do you see the

9 big grey building on the right-hand side of the -- the -- you see the

10 main road going through the photograph? It's a --

11 A. This is the main road. Shall I mark it --

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. -- to avoid any confusion? This is the main road. On the

14 left-hand side a grey building. Is that what you said? On the left-hand

15 side of the road. I suppose that that would be that. Let me show it to

16 you and then you can tell me if I'm right in thinking what I'm -- is

17 this Keraterm?

18 Q. No, I said on the right-hand side.

19 A. I'm finding it very difficult.

20 Q. On the right-hand side of the road that you've just marked. The

21 big grey building.

22 A. But if this is the regional road -- please, please. If this is

23 the regional road, then Keraterm -- if Prijedor is below the road and

24 Banja Luka above the road, then Keraterm is supposed to be on the

25 left-hand side of that road. I don't know where Banja Luka is and where

Page 45672

1 Prijedor is. Can you tell me that?

2 Q. Prijedor is to the north, Banja Luka is to the left.

3 Erdif [phoen] is to the south. No, the grey big building.

4 A. Yes, then I'm with you.

5 Q. Grey building.

6 A. Yes, then I can see -- yes, this is it.

7 Q. Now, can you mark with an X where the interrogation rooms were

8 situated?

9 A. Approximately here.

10 Q. Mr. Radetic, I just showed you Exhibit P541 and you pointed out

11 to me that on the left-hand side of that building were the interrogation

12 rooms on the first floor, so that would be on the corner of this grey

13 building, on the left-hand front corner of this grey building, would it

14 not?

15 A. Well, I don't know whether where I'm pointing is a corner.

16 According to me, this is not a corner. This is the entire side of the

17 building and I don't know which room exactly was where I was. And

18 really, I can't remember 22 years later where that room was exactly.

19 Q. Okay. Leaving the Keraterm facility aside, the military barracks

20 known as Kozara Putevi, which was directly across the road from the

21 Keraterm camp, can you circle that building, please? Or those buildings

22 where the military --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- barracks are?

25 A. I believe that this is -- no, no, no. Just bear with me, please.

Page 45673

1 Q. Mr. Radetic --

2 A. This is across the road from Keraterm. The building just

3 opposite Keraterm.

4 Q. With the red roof?

5 A. From this perspective, I can't be a hundred per cent sure of

6 that. I can only assume that this could be the building.

7 Q. Now, you -- you circled the -- the Keraterm camp. Can you just

8 put an A where you've circled that grey building as being the Keraterm

9 facility?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And you've now drawn the A over where you say the interrogation

12 rooms were. Now --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- as a military --

15 A. Well, approximately.

16 Q. As a military policeman, you don't know where the military -- you

17 cannot identify where the military barracks are which are directly across

18 the road from the Keraterm camp?

19 A. Approximately -- please don't hold me to any dates, I'm not sure.

20 Sometime in late June or, rather, in late May and June, the command of

21 the 43rd Motorised Brigade was moved to Kozara Putevi; whereas the unit

22 remained in the old barracks, Zarko Zrenjanin. Only the command element

23 of the brigade moved to Kozara Putevi. I believe that that was sometime

24 in June.

25 Q. Now just so that it's not confusing when we go back to read the

Page 45674

1 transcript, that other circle that you've drawn -- drawn on the left-hand

2 side of that Banja Luka-Prijedor main road is not what you say is the

3 military barracks, is it?

4 A. Yes. The circle on the left-hand side, since I did not receive

5 any explanations, I assumed that Banja Luka is above the road and

6 Prijedor below the road, so I was mistaken on the direction from which

7 the map --

8 Q. Now --

9 A. I was wrong so I gave you wrong information.

10 Q. Now, where did you say you entered from? What direction did you

11 enter from now that you've oriented yourself on the map?

12 A. This is where the gate was. We would follow this road, I don't

13 know whether you can see it, and the gate was here. We entered along the

14 building here and then we climbed the stairs. Everything was fenced off

15 and the -- there were two gates, one in the front and the other in the

16 back. This gate here was used exclusively by the personnel who was

17 involved in the interrogations.

18 Q. Can you -- can you put a B where you've just drawn a bit of a

19 circle there for the gate? Can you just put a B above it, please?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. So when you came into the camp, you didn't drive past the

22 weigh-bridge then? Mr. Radetic, I said when you entered the Keraterm

23 camp, you didn't pass by the weigh-bridge then, did you?

24 A. Yes. I'm not aware of any weigh-bridges there. What

25 weigh-bridge are you referring to? If I came from the town that I would

Page 45675

1 go under the flyover, and if I arrived from the barracks then I didn't.

2 Q. Mr. Radetic, the weigh-bridge that was inside the Keraterm camp

3 compound, which we can see in front of the grey building that you've just

4 circled with an A. To the bottom right-hand -- left-hand corner is the

5 weigh-bridge. Mr. Radetic, did the military police also have a building

6 at the back of the Keraterm camp where you -- on the side where you have

7 drawn that you entered?

8 A. The issue of the weigh-bridge remains unclear. I don't remember

9 that anywhere near the fence or near the gate there was a weigh-bridge,

10 so maybe we can leave it for later, but it's still pending. And as for

11 the latter part of your question, I can say that the military police did

12 use the small white building way back. I don't know when that was, but I

13 can mark it for you.

14 Q. Yes, please, and if you can -- if you can mark that with a C.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Now, in fact, you sometimes questioned detainees in an office

17 in -- in the building that you've just marked with a C, didn't you?

18 A. No. Only in the building which I marked by letter A.

19 Q. Okay. Let's leave -- if we can capture that. If you can date

20 and sign it, please. The date today is the 20th of January. And sign

21 it, down in the -- one of the bottom corners.

22 A. [Marks]

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Now I'd tender that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6594, Your Honour.

Page 45676

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: And can that be removed from the screen for the

2 moment.

3 Q. Mr. Radetic, security for the camp was provided by Prijedor

4 police station 2; correct?

5 A. I know that it was the civilian police, but I don't know from

6 which police station. I never inquired. Nobody ever told me that.

7 Q. So at the time you conducted the interrogations at Keraterm, you

8 were assigned as a member of the military police. Now, you mentioned in

9 paragraph -- that's right, isn't it? That you were assigned as a member

10 of the military police?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You mentioned in paragraph 28 of your statement that your task

13 was only to monitor whether statements of interviewees contained elements

14 of crimes against the armed force, which you recalled as being the

15 chapters 17 to 19 of the SFRY criminal code. Now just to clarify this,

16 you were presumably aware that the dead-line for the departure of the JNA

17 was the 19th of May and before the establishment of Keraterm camp. So

18 the armed forces that you're referring to would be the VRS and the

19 RS MUP; correct?

20 A. Precisely, yes.

21 Q. And so your only task was to monitor whether there were elements

22 of crimes against the JNA prior to the 19th of May or against the VRS or

23 RS MUP, yes?

24 A. Exclusively crimes against the military, which at the time was

25 known as the VRS or the Army of Republika Srpska, I believe. There was

Page 45677

1 no need for us to monitor possible crimes against the MUP since members

2 of the MUP were members of the same commission.

3 Q. You're talking about the commission that the -- you refer to as

4 the commission --

5 A. I'm talking about the investigating commission.

6 Q. Yes. And so you had -- you had three people on each of the

7 interrogation teams, one from the military, one from this state security,

8 and one from public security; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And so you're saying that your little part of this was only to

11 look at elements of crimes against the JNA prior to the 19th of May or

12 against the VRS, and that it was the other two gentlemen who were in your

13 commission who were dealing with the -- the police aspect of it, of the

14 interview; correct?

15 A. Precisely.

16 Q. So there were three interrogation teams in Keraterm, yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So we had you as the VRS representative along with

19 Grozdin Mijetic [phoen] from the state security and Gostimir Modic from

20 the SJB?

21 A. No, no. No, he did not understand that correctly. Modic from

22 the public security. I knew him.

23 Q. I'm sorry. That's what I said. The SJB. So that was your team,

24 the three of you; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 45678

1 Q. And then the other team, there was Brane --

2 A. I didn't know him personally and I didn't memorise the name. A

3 lot of time has passed since. He was not a member of the State

4 Security Service. I don't know his name.

5 Q. Brane Siljeg and Ranko Bukalo were the --

6 A. Brane Siljeg, possibly. Possibly, I'm not sure.

7 Q. Mr. Radetic, let me finish my question please. Now in the second

8 team there was Brane Siljeg and Ranko Bukalo. Who was the representative

9 from the VRS on that second team?

10 A. Really, I don't know. I don't know any of these people,

11 personally. They receive the orders. But we did not either come to

12 Keraterm together or leave together.

13 Q. So the third team, are you familiar with these people:

14 Radomir Rodic and Marko Radisic?

15 A. The name Ranko Radisic is familiar, but I've hear about

16 Radomir Rodic for the first time.

17 Q. In fact, I said Marko Radisic. So who was the -- okay, so --

18 so --

19 A. Marko, Marko, you're right. Not Ranko.

20 Q. Okay. So you're saying that you don't know who the other two

21 members of the VRS were who worked in these interrogation teams in

22 Keraterm camp?

23 A. No, I didn't know them personally.

24 THE ACCUSED: Transcript [Interpretation] transcript matter. I

25 believe in line 11 on page 106, there is a mistake. The witness said

Page 45679

1 that the man was a reserve member of the state security.


3 Q. Now, Mr. --

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He was not an active duty but

5 reserve member.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about Marko Radisic for

7 certain, that he was a reserve member because the man was employed in the

8 mine which is across the street from the court, so I knew him personally.

9 Concerning Brane Siljeg, I don't know what he did in Keraterm. I know he

10 was employed with the SUP. And third, the man from the state security

11 who was with me, I said that he was a reservist and I didn't know him.

12 He did not belong to the ranks of active duty policemen.


14 Q. Mr. Radetic, did you work with Gostimir Modic at the Omarska camp

15 for a very short time at the end of May?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. Do you -- do you have a nickname?

18 A. Sometimes they called me Draja for short.

19 Q. Well, the --

20 A. What is this in the LiveNote, "Darko Kraljevic"?

21 Q. It's a -- you were also known as Draja, D-r-a-j-a; correct?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Now, you said that you didn't work with Gostimir Modic in

24 Omarska -- in Omarska camp, but did you ever visit the camp -- Omarska

25 camp while it was operating as a detention facility?

Page 45680

1 A. I visited once for ten minutes on the orders of

2 Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic.

3 Q. Because Witness J who testified in the Kvocka case mentioned

4 seeing you there with other investigators.

5 A. No. There was a report on a large quantity of sold weapons where

6 the suspect, allegedly a Serb, was detained there.

7 Q. You said -- you said, Mr. Radetic, that you visited Omarska on

8 one occasion; that's right?

9 A. You misunderstood. I did not visit Omarska. I came officially

10 to interrogate a person who was there. The man told me right at the

11 beginning that he knew nothing about those weapons, so I just turned on

12 my heel and left.

13 Q. Okay. Let's get back to Keraterm. I want to turn your attention

14 to how the detainees were maltreated. Now, there is evidence in this

15 case that -- that detainees would be taken by the guards for questioning

16 by the operative inspectors and that many detainees were detained -- many

17 detainees were physically assaulted during their interrogations.

18 A. On the commission where I worked, there was no question of even

19 verbal abuse, let alone anything physical. I never saw anyone brought in

20 bearing any trace of any injury or ever being attacked.

21 Q. And you didn't see anyone leave any of the interrogation officers

22 with -- covered with blood and either lightly or seriously injured?

23 A. If I said that on the commission where I worked nobody was

24 attacked even verbally, then it's not possible that I could have seen

25 somebody injured physically when they were leaving.

Page 45681

1 Q. And so you didn't hear any loud noises, raised voices coming from

2 any of the interrogation rooms?

3 A. Now concerning noise and loud voices, I would not like to make a

4 mistake after all this time. Whether somebody yelled, some were --

5 whatever I told you after 20 years could not be true.

6 Q. Now you're aware, aren't you, that from the end of May until

7 sometime in June that an issue developed over unauthorised people coming

8 into the camp and beating detainees?

9 A. I learned about that unofficially. There was unofficial

10 information that once we leave Keraterm, some guards act in violation of

11 the regulations towards the prisoners. I passed that unofficial

12 information on to my superior command and thus fulfilled my obligation.

13 However, that was a problem of the member of the commission who were

14 members of the MUP --

15 Q. Mr. --

16 A. -- because they -- because they through their police superiors

17 were able to deal with that problem positively.

18 Q. Now, you said a number of things. You said you passed it

19 unofficially. So how did you become aware of this information

20 unofficially? What was your source?

21 A. Well, 22 years later I'm afraid I can't tell you. I heard there

22 were rumours that some guards - not all guards, just a few of them -

23 physically abused the detainees by night. Nobody told me specifically

24 the names of the guards who did it.

25 Q. Mr. Radetic.

Page 45682

1 A. It's just that my attention was drawn to that problem.

2 Q. Who told you this information, though? Was it other

3 interrogators? Was it the camp commander himself? Was it shift leaders?

4 Where did you find -- what body of person told you this information?

5 A. I really can't remember now because it's something that was said

6 to me in passing. It's not like somebody made an official report to me

7 either in writing or even verbally. It's just something that someone

8 said to me in passing as one of the problems at Keraterm.

9 Q. These --

10 A. I can't remember who it was.

11 Q. These crimes were also being committed not only in the

12 day-time -- night-time, they were also being committed during the day,

13 weren't they?

14 A. I don't know about that. I know about night-time.

15 Q. Okay. You said you passed it on to your superior command. Who

16 did you -- who did you pass this information on to?

17 A. If I remember correctly, and I'm not absolutely sure, the chief

18 of security, Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic, when I briefed him.

19 Q. And are you saying that it was -- that it was for the police to

20 deal with. So from that -- do I draw from that that you're saying that

21 it was -- that you're only talking about the Keraterm camp guards that

22 were part of the police security that were committing these assaults,

23 serious assaults at night-time?

24 A. Look, I think we both agree about the fact that the guards at

25 Keraterm were provided by the civilian police force. All the guards at

Page 45683

1 Keraterm came from the ranks of the civilian police. If these persons

2 acted unlawfully vis--vis the prisoners, then it would be logical for

3 their police superiors to deal with these matters.

4 Q. And so what about -- what about Dusko Knezevic then? Did you

5 hear about him coming into the camp and committing crimes?

6 A. As far as I know, Dusko Knezevic was tried for war crimes and is

7 serving his sentence. He tried to kill me in August 1992. And after all

8 this time --

9 Q. Mr. Radetic --

10 A. -- despite that, I cannot say whether Dusko Knezevic alone or

11 together with someone else did these things.

12 Q. Mr. Radetic --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- are you saying that at the time you were working in the

15 Keraterm camp, you were not aware of Zoran Zigic, Dusko Knezevic,

16 Timarac, Janjic, Saponja, you were not aware of these people coming into

17 the camp at night-time inflicting serious injuries on the detainees?

18 A. The entire town had problems with the persons you've just named.

19 One came across these names --

20 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Radetic, you didn't answer my question.

21 A. -- in connection with a lot of criminal offences.

22 Q. My question was: At the time you were working in the camp, are

23 you saying you have no knowledge of any of these people coming into the

24 camp and committing serious crimes on the non-Serb detainees?

25 A. In those 12 days, I claim with full responsibility that I did not

Page 45684

1 receive such information, but I can tell you what kind of information I

2 did receive.

3 Q. Again, I'm not wanting to quibble, but in your statement you say

4 you were there for 15 days. Is it 12 or 15 days?

5 A. When I was giving that statement to the Defence, I told them I

6 don't remember exactly but it could have been no more than 15 days, but

7 it was probably less.

8 Q. Now, there was no willingness on the part of the military police

9 or, in fact, any of the Serb authorities in Prijedor to stop these people

10 entering the camp and committing murder and brutal beatings.

11 A. Let me tell you, you're trying to put in my mouth something that

12 I told you already I don't remember. In those 12 days, Dusko Knezevic

13 and the others you've enumerated did not come, and in that period of 12

14 or 15 days nobody ever told me that they were coming and doing these

15 things. I know about a lot of crimes that these people had committed in

16 the territory of the entire town, beginning with the fact that they tried

17 to kill me in August 1992.

18 Q. Now, at some point Mr. Zigic is arrested in early July. And on

19 the 4th of July, Sikirica, who is the commander of the Keraterm camp,

20 then decides to write to his superiors.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have D04140, please?

22 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue tomorrow, Ms. Sutherland?

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, yes, Your Honour. If you prefer, yes.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Radetic, we'll continue tomorrow morning at

25 9.00, but I take it you understand this well, but please do not discuss

Page 45685

1 with anybody else about your testimony.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

3 JUDGE KWON: Hearing is adjourned.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st

6 day of January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.