Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45686

 1                           Tuesday, 21 January 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

 9     introduce Dennis Lazarus from Mexico who has been with our team since

10     November 2013 and holds a degree in international relations.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Very well.

12             Good morning, Mr. Radetic.

13             Shall we continue, Ms. Sutherland.

14                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN RADETIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]

17        Q.   Mr. Radetic, for the interpreters and for the court record, we

18     need to ensure today that we both do not speak at the same time, and my

19     apologies to the interpreters and to the court reporter for the

20     overlapping speakers yesterday.

21             Secondly, I wish to follow up on a couple of things that you said

22     yesterday.  At transcript page 45673, you said that the command of the

23     43rd Motorised Brigade moved to Kozara Putevi building sometime in late

24     May and June.  And Kozara Putevi is that building -- the military

25     barracks across from the Keraterm camp.  Did you ever go to that barracks

Page 45687

 1     building?

 2        A.   The building of Kozara Putevi?  Yes, I did go there several

 3     times.

 4        Q.   During the time that you worked at the Keraterm camp?

 5        A.   I'm not sure that while I was at Keraterm the command of the

 6     43rd Brigade was at Kozara Putevi.  I believe that they were transferred

 7     there only thereafter.

 8        Q.   And you said that the unit remained at the old Zarko Zgonjanin

 9     Barracks, and that's Z-g-o-n-j-a-n-i-n Barracks.  For the Court, this

10     location is shown on Exhibit P03533.  The unit that you mentioned

11     yesterday is the military police unit; is it not?

12        A.   If I remember it well, you asked me about the command of the

13     43rd Brigade and you asked me where they were transferred to the

14     Kozara Putevi building.  This is what I answered:  The command of the

15     43rd Brigade - and only the command - was transferred to the

16     Kozara Putevi building.  I don't know anything about the percentages, but

17     I would say that I'm -- a vast majority of the troops remained in the

18     Zarko Zgonjanin Barracks, and I'm referring to the 43rd Brigade.

19        Q.   Mr. Radetic, we have a lot to cover today in very, very limited

20     time.  I thought my question was clear.  You said yesterday that the

21     command moved from Zarko Zgonjanin Barracks to Kozara Putevi.  You also

22     said that the unit remained in the old barracks.  I was simply asking you

23     this morning to define what you meant by "the unit."  Did you mean the

24     military police unit remained at the old barracks?

25        A.   If we're talking about the military police, one part of the

Page 45688

 1     military police unit remained in the old barracks and the other part was

 2     moved to the white building behind the Keraterm building that I showed to

 3     you yesterday when you showed me that photo.  But I don't know the exact

 4     dates when those things happened.  I can't remember.

 5        Q.   And that --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I don't know what it is about.  Do you have an

 8     objection?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know how to interpret 3533.

10     We can see a building there, but you can't see the relationship of that

11     building with any other buildings.  And now the reference has been made

12     to that relationship, so I don't know how to interpret that.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it was -- it was me noting for the

14     Court that the Zarko Zgonjanin Barracks is simply located on that

15     exhibit.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's continue.  I think that's okay.  Shall we

17     continue.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Radetic, you said at transcript page 45683 that

20     Dusko Knezevic was tried for war crimes and is serving his sentence.

21     You're aware of the fact that he was actually tried in Bosnia-Herzegovina

22     as a result of the transfer of the ICTY indictment to the Bosnian state

23     court?  You're aware of that fact, yes?

24        A.   Dusko Kraljevic is the name I heard yesterday for the first time.

25     I don't know who you're talking about.  As far as I can remember,

Page 45689

 1     Dusko Kraljevic did not exist in the 43rd Brigade, or at least I didn't

 2     know any such person.

 3        Q.   Mr. Radetic, yesterday I mentioned Dusko Knezevic who was

 4     involved in crimes --

 5        A.   Knezevic?

 6        Q.   -- with Zoran Zigic.  Now, you know that he was tried in Bosnia

 7     as a result of an indictment sent by the ICTY to the state court, don't

 8     you?

 9        A.   Madam, for the transcript to be clear, in your previous question

10     you asked me about Dusko Kraljevic, and now you just skipped that name

11     and you're asking me about Zigic and Knezevic.  Do we still need to talk

12     about Dusko Kraljevic?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Radetic, it's an issue of interpretation.  There

14     is a mistake in the course of interpretation.  Please understand that.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Are you able to answer the question, Mr. Radetic?

17        A.   And the question is about whom, Dusan Knezevic and Zoran Zigic,

18     whether they what?

19        Q.   No, I'm moving on.  We're wasting time.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can I have Exhibit D04140 on the screen please.

21        Q.   Mr. Radetic, will you please concentrate very carefully on my

22     question and answer the question as succinctly as you possibly can,

23     please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Can you read the exhibit number again, please.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  D04140.

Page 45690

 1        Q.   The document you see on the screen is an official note signed by

 2     Dusko Sikirica, who is the commander of the Keraterm security, dated the

 3     4th of July, 1992.  And it states there that Zigic, an armed uniform

 4     person, together with Dusko Knezevic, Zoran Vokic, and Zeljko Timarac

 5     came to the Keraterm camp and beat prisoners to exhaustion and after

 6     which they would die a few days later.  He asks there to the

 7     Prijedor police station number 2 to ask the responsible bodies to suggest

 8     to the military command that such conscripts should be prevented from

 9     committing these arbitrary acts.  Now, Sikirica's statement about Zigic

10     establishes that a crime has been committed, doesn't it?  Can you answer

11     that with a yes or a no?

12        A.   It arises from this now that the answer is yes.

13        Q.   And Zigic and others as a result of this official note should

14     have been arrested, should they not?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The police were duty-bound to inform the military command and the

17     prosecutor of this 4th of July, 1992, letter, which contained information

18     that crimes had been committed?

19        A.   Madam, on the 4th of July, 1992 --

20        Q.   Mr. Radetic --

21        A.   -- there were neither a military prosecutor nor a military court.

22     As far as I can remember, the military court and the military

23     prosecutor's office were set up either at the end of September or the

24     beginning of October.

25        Q.   They could have informed the civilian police -- they could have

Page 45691

 1     informed the -- the civilian prosecutor, yes?

 2        A.   Precisely.  Because Zoran Zigic was not a military conscript, nor

 3     was he a member of the 43rd Brigade.

 4        Q.   Now, there was -- there was a military police unit under the

 5     military command of which you were a member, yes?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And so the police were duty-bound to inform the military command

 8     of this letter, and it was the responsibility, was it not, of the police

 9     and the military to investigate and -- investigate this matter?

10        A.   Madam, the military police was duty-bound to deal with illegal

11     dealings carried out by uniformed personnel in the armed forces.

12     Zoran Zigic was not a member of the military.  He was not a military

13     conscript.  He could not even be mobilised because he had some health

14     problems, as far as I can remember.  The story about Zoran Zigic should

15     have ended in proceedings carried out by the Ministry of the Interior

16     because he was a civilian involved in the commission of crimes.

17        Q.   And Dusko Knezevic, he was not a member of the military?  Is that

18     your position?

19        A.   He was a member of the unit of the 43rd Brigade.

20        Q.   All right.  We'll deal with some documents in a moment, but just

21     before we do that, in paragraph 35 of your statement, it states that

22     after 15 days at Keraterm you were assigned other duties.  And in

23     paragraph 33 of your statement, you say that you were transferred to the

24     crime department of the military police.  You said you investigated

25     crimes against property and that 90 per cent of the cases involved Serb

Page 45692

 1     perpetrators.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  There seems to have

 3     been some problem with your microphone.  I'm not sure whether the witness

 4     heard your question in full.  Did you understand the question?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Whether I was transferred to

 6     the crime prevention service of the military police after a short while

 7     and the answer is yes, that happened.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   In paragraph 8 of your statement, you say that everyone who the

10     military police found out had committed a crime was arrested and criminal

11     reports were filed.

12        A.   He was processed but that doesn't mean that he had to be

13     arrested.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. -- Mr. -- Mr. Radetic, you mentioned, you know,

15     extensive looting, robberies.  Now, the non-Serbs were the victims of

16     these crimes - correct? --

17        A.   Robberies --

18        Q.   -- in the majority of cases?

19        A.   A majority of those crimes were committed in the areas where

20     there was no population and that's where looting and robberies happened.

21     Those were the areas where combat had taken place previously, and I'm

22     talking about 90 per cent of all the cases.

23        Q.   And those places where combat occurred where the civilians from

24     that area were fleeing their houses, is that the areas that you're

25     talking about, the non-Serb houses in the combat areas where the looting

Page 45693

 1     was occurring?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And what about -- what about serious crimes?  What about crimes

 4     against life and limb, war crimes against a civilian population?  Did you

 5     investigate those crimes?  You said everyone who the military police

 6     found out had committed a crime was arrested.

 7        A.   They were processed.  When it comes to crimes against life and

 8     limb, we had cases that could be processed.  We gathered evidence.  We

 9     investigated.  We interrogated suspects.  We collected evidence.  We

10     prepared documents for future processing, yes.

11        Q.   The focus was on property crime and not investigating crimes like

12     murder and serious assaults committed against the non-Serb population,

13     wasn't it?

14        A.   A lot more crimes that pertained to property, at least according

15     to the information available to the police, were known to the police.  We

16     did not know about the large number of killings of the non-Serbian

17     population, and we knew about the others.  We had information about

18     those.

19        Q.   Mr. Radetic, you said yesterday that you informed your superior

20     command of the crimes that you heard about -- oh, no, sorry, you informed

21     your command about the crimes that you had heard about unofficially that

22     had occurred at the Keraterm camp after you left.  Now, there was no

23     investigation by the military police into these crimes, was there?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Well, what about the room 3 massacre involving the death of over

Page 45694

 1     150 detainees that occurred on the 24th of July, 1992, in the Keraterm

 2     camp?  Did the military police investigate that matter?

 3        A.   In the statement that I provided to the Tribunal, I explained

 4     very clearly that during that period of time I was not in Prijedor.  I

 5     was absent from Prijedor because my father was sick.  After four or five

 6     days when I returned, I learnt about the killings that had occurred on

 7     the 24th of July.  As far as I know in view of the fact that those

 8     victims were civilians and that the civilian police secured the camp, the

 9     police station in Prijedor was involved in some investigation.

10        Q.   Now, wasn't -- wasn't -- wasn't it the talk of the town that a --

11     that a TO unit or a military unit was also involved in the commission of

12     that massacre?

13        A.   When I returned, I heard this:  It was the talk of the town that

14     some people tried to escape from Keraterm and that several of those who

15     tried to escape were killed.  That's what I heard.

16        Q.   The unarmed civilians who were -- who were locked in a -- in a

17     shed tried to escape and then they were machine gunned down; is that

18     right?

19        A.   Madam, I was not there.  I told you what I had heard and those

20     were just talks.

21        Q.   Let's turn briefly now to -- to the military court prosecutor's

22     office.  In paragraph 8 of your statement, you say that the main problem

23     in the work of the military police was the fact that no military court

24     had been established until September/October 1992 and there was no place

25     to process the recorded perpetrators of crimes.  We have evidence in this

Page 45695

 1     case that the military courts and military prosecutor's offices in the

 2     Republika Srpska were established much earlier and that was by a decision

 3     of Mr. Karadzic of the 31st of May, 1992, which is P03602.  We also have

 4     evidence in this case showing that the Banja Luka military court was

 5     operational and functioning from August 1992, and the reference for the

 6     Court and the accused is Exhibit P03596.

 7             Now, the military prosecutor's office was functioning from at

 8     least mid-July, yes?

 9        A.   In mid-July I did go to the military prosecutor's office on

10     business.  A man was there in that room.  He didn't have a desk.  He did

11     not even have a typewriter, let alone a computer.  Captain Pisarevic,

12     whose name I can't remember, was on the phone all day to try and get at

13     least the bare necessities for his work.  That's what the prosecutor's

14     office looked like in mid-July 1992.

15        Q.   We have evidence in this case, Exhibit P03608 which shows --

16     which is the military court prosecutor's log-book, which shows that the

17     prosecutor's office was operational from at least the 19th of July, 1992.

18     But, Mr. Radetic, you were working in the prosecutor's office in -- in

19     August 1992; correct?

20        A.   The end of August, beginning of September.  I don't know exactly

21     when.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have --

23        Q.   You were -- you were a desk officer or an administrative officer

24     in the military prosecutor's office at that time, weren't you?

25        A.   Yes, a professional associate.

Page 45696

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have 65 ter number 25840, please.

 2        Q.   Mr. Radetic, this is a cover page of a -- of a file for

 3     Zoran Zigic, and it's dated in the very top left-hand corner the

 4     19th of August, 1992.  And it's got a reference, 84/92.  And if we go

 5     down to the bottom of the page, is that a reference to you down in the

 6     bottom right-hand corner?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to page 2 of the English.

 8        Q.   Is that a reference to you, Mr. Radetic?  That's being --

 9        A.   I assume that the answer is yes, but I cannot recall the case.

10        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] Well, you're the only --

11        A.   I assume the answer is yes.

12        Q.   You're the only person with the surname Radetic that worked in

13     the military prosecutor's office, weren't you?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I tender that document, Your Honour.

16             THE ACCUSED:  How many pages?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's simply the cover page, one.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Two pages?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Two pages in the English, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, we'll receive it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6595, Your Honours.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Now, you say in paragraph 7 of your statement that the civilian

24     authorities, the police, and the army took measures within their purview

25     against violators of public law and order and those who committed crimes

Page 45697

 1     and also in paragraph 8 that when -- as -- as we've just discussed, when

 2     everyone -- when you were working in the military police company,

 3     everyone was arrested but that you couldn't process them because there

 4     was no military court.  You also said in paragraph 50 that attempts were

 5     made to process people who had committed crimes.  But the fact of the

 6     matter is, Mr. Radetic, that the prosecutor's office and the court failed

 7     to follow through with prosecutions of perpetrators in relation to crimes

 8     committed against non-Serbs; correct?

 9        A.   Now, what actually -- are you asking me about the work of the

10     military police or the military prosecutor's office?  What is the aspect

11     from which I should answer this question?

12        Q.   Military prosecutor's office and the court.

13        A.   The military prosecutor's office, after it was enabled to do what

14     it was supposed to do on the basis of the law, and that was at the end of

15     September, worked on cases that it received from police organs to the

16     extent to which these reports arrived and to the extent to which there

17     was evidence supporting the reports.  However, the focus of the military

18     prosecutor's office in view of the war situation were problems within the

19     Army of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   Mr. Radetic --

21        A.   -- that rendered it impossible --

22        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I said that the focus was not --

23     they didn't follow through on crimes that were committed against

24     non-Serbs - that was my question - yes or no?

25        A.   I'm not sure.  I cannot give a yes or no answer.  I'd have to

Page 45698

 1     spend a lot of time to remember all of that.  How could I possibly just

 2     say yes or no?  I cannot recall how many such cases were dealt with as

 3     you have been referring to just now.

 4        Q.   I want to look at an -- an example in the Prijedor basic court.

 5     Now, you worked there for seven years before the war, did you not, in the

 6     basic court?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So we know that Zoran Zigic was arrested on the 1st of July and

 9     detained for three days for a crime of accepting bribery of

10     4.000 Deutschmarks from two non-Serb detainees in Keraterm camp.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And the reference for that is D01926.  And the

12     criminal report is D1925.

13        Q.   There is then a request by the Prijedor basic public prosecutor

14     on the 3rd of July.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we can bring that document up, 25842,

16     please.

17        Q.   Now, this is from Samba [phoen], deputy prosecutor, Drasko Zec.

18     And it's addressed to the court, the investigating judge in the court,

19     requesting to carry out an investigation against him and to detain him

20     for one month for this -- for this crime of bribe taking.  And it says on

21     the 10th of June that he was a member of the unit providing security to

22     the Keraterm collection centre.  Now, we saw earlier the document P04041,

23     the 4th of July letter written by Dusko Sikirica, the commander of the

24     Keraterm camp, about the -- the crimes that had been committed by the

25     four people named in that document.  Do you recall that?

Page 45699

 1        A.   No, I cannot recall that.

 2        Q.   It was the -- it was the exhibit that we showed very early this

 3     morning, and it --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Official Note written by Sikirica.  Do you remember

 5     having seen that this morning?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.  Of course.  Well, this

 7     morning -- well, you know, I thought that you asked me whether I had seen

 8     that in 1992.  1992.  In 1992, I did not see it or at least I do not

 9     recall seeing it.  Of course I saw it this morning.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Yeah, no, I'm sorry if -- if there is some confusion,

12     Mr. Radetic.  So Mr. Zigic is arrested for this crime here in front of

13     us, this -- this bribery crime.  The very next day, after this letter is

14     written to detain him for one month, Sikirica then writes and -- and

15     informs the public -- the police station about the crimes being committed

16     by Mr. Zigic.  Now the police are duty-bound to hand that letter on to

17     the prosecutor, are they not?

18        A.   Civilian prosecutor's office, yes.  I assume the answer is yes.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Now if we could call up 65 ter number 25836.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Did you ask any question about this request from the

22     prosecutor's office?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, Your Honour, I was showing this to the

24     witness to put it into -- to establish a chronology of -- of documents to

25     come.

Page 45700

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes.  Please continue.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   So we see in front of us, Mr. Radetic, an undated letter,

 4     although it has a date stamped down in the bottom left-hand corner as

 5     having been received from the -- the prosecutor's office on the

 6     8th of August -- 8th of July, I'm sorry.  It's -- it's a letter of the

 7     sabotage reconnaissance unit of the military post 4777/3 Prijedor signed

 8     by Sergeant Dusko Knezevic, and it's sent to the public prosecutor, and

 9     it's requesting the release of the soldier Zoran Zigic accused of a crime

10     under Article 230, saying because the unit will leave for Derventa and

11     they -- they need Zigic because he's an exceptionally capable and

12     disciplined soldier and one of the best explosive experts.

13             Now, four days after the -- five days after the -- the document

14     we just saw from the prosecutor's office asking for a -- for a -- for the

15     detention for one month, we see Mr. -- where it -- sorry, where it says

16     that Knezevic had been a member of the Keraterm security, which is

17     attached to the police, we now see him being part of a military unit.

18     And we have his partner in crime here, Dusko Knezevic, writing a letter

19     for his release.

20             Now, this military post, the sabotage reconnaissance unit

21     military post 4777/3, this is a unit within the 43rd Brigade, yes?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Now, could we have 65 ter number 25843 please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me.  If the Prosecutor

25     allows me -- or, rather, if the Court allows me, this document that is on

Page 45701

 1     the screen now and that was signed by Dusko Knezevic is a pure forgery.

 2     It's compiled by criminals in order to have one criminal help another

 3     one.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 25843, please.

 5        Q.   And this is a decision signed by Zivko Dragosavljevic from the

 6     Prijedor lower court, dated the 9th --

 7        A.   Drago Savljevic.

 8        Q.   -- of July, 1992, immediately releasing the accused, Zoran Zigic.

 9     And it says -- it says here that he's fully admitted to having committed

10     the crimes, and then says the reasons to keep him in custody don't exist

11     anymore and also the public prosecutor's office proposed the release from

12     custody.  And then it refers to the letter written by Dusko Knezevic.

13             Now, is this a legitimate basis to release when -- when Zigic has

14     confessed to the crime and the matter could have gone straight to trial?

15     But in any event, the -- the court should have been aware of the letter

16     of the 4th of July, 1992, from Sikirica outlining that Zigic had

17     committed a murder.  And if the court had evidence that murder had been

18     committed, he shouldn't have been released, should he?

19        A.   Let me tell you:  As a professional, I don't like to state my

20     views on the decisions of any court without having detailed insight into

21     the case itself.  Let me say this:  As for this detention of Mr. Zigic's

22     in that case and the constellation of the crimes that he had committed

23     anyway and on account of which he was arrested, and so on, this is very

24     mild, if I can put it that way, extortion, bribery.  If Mr. Zigic

25     admitted the commission of such a crime and if there was other supporting

Page 45702

 1     evidence before the court in addition to that confession, and it has to

 2     do with the crime of bribery, there would be no reason for detention on

 3     the basis of the Law on Criminal Procedure that was in force then and the

 4     one that is in force now.

 5             However, if, as you claim, the court had Dusko Sikirica's letter,

 6     then this is catastrophic, releasing Mr. Zigic from custody.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 20 it was not recorded

10     properly, "if."

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, we understood that.  You confirm that

12     Mr. Radetic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Radetic, I want to show you, you said you're not comfortable

17     with dealing with -- looking at cases that you weren't involved in.

18     Well, I want to show you some that you are aware of.  You agree that this

19     happened frequently, that the court was releasing perpetrators back to

20     their units in order to replenish manpower at the front?

21        A.   Well, that's a difficult question.  That's a difficult

22     question --

23        Q.   Well, yes or no?

24        A.   -- that cannot be given a general answer.  No.

25        Q.   You're saying it didn't happen frequently?

Page 45703

 1        A.   The concept of "frequently" is a very broad one, and I don't know

 2     what the Prosecution means by "frequently."

 3        Q.   All right.  I will be more specific.  In relation to crimes

 4     committed by non-Serbs -- crimes committed by Serbs against non-Serbs, in

 5     those instances the court was releasing perpetrators back to their units,

 6     weren't they?

 7        A.   I cannot recall something like that happening.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I've been advised that my time is

 9     up, but I do wish to show Mr. Radetic four documents, if -- with

10     Your Honours' leave.  Sorry, five documents.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please conclude by 11.00.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Mr. Radetic, five weeks later Zigic was again involved in

15     extortion.  The previous --

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I meant 10.00.  Yes.  Thank you for your

17     indication, Mr. Robinson.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I know I had asked for an additional half-hour,

19     Your Honour.  In my estimate -- my cross estimate was for two hours, but

20     I will -- I will abide by the Court.

21        Q.   Mr. Radetic, five weeks later Zigic is again involved in

22     extortion.  I mean, this one that we just dealt with was in relation to

23     2.500 Deutschmarks, but the next case in August dealt with an amount

24     of --

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Did you mean to tender

Page 45704

 1     those three documents?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive them all.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 25836 will be P6596;

 7     65 ter number 25842 will be Exhibit P6597; and 65 ter number 25843 will

 8     be P6598.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Now you know about this case, don't you, because the Banja Luka

12     military court now dealt -- deals with this second case of extortion.

13     And it's -- it's a case involving Zoran Zigic trying to get money from

14     Husein Ganic, Husein Ganic.  You know the case I'm talking about?

15        A.   I cannot remember that individual case now.  I know that

16     Mr. Zigic several times tried or did commit crimes against the Ganic

17     family.  That I do remember.  As far back as when I worked for the

18     military police, that's when that kind of thing happened.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I can have 65 ter number 25846, please.  I'm

20     sorry, 25845.

21        Q.   Now, this is a -- this is a decision signed Svetozar Davidovic

22     against an appeal by Zigic rejecting it and keeping him in custody,

23     because it concludes that he can repeat this same criminal activity and

24     could influence the witnesses.  Do you recall this case?

25        A.   Madam Registrar, Zoran Zigic was involved in 20 cases.  When

Page 45705

 1     there was reasonable doubt.  You see that this is August 1992.  He was a

 2     suspect in so many cases.  I really cannot recall all these individual

 3     situations.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can have 65 ter number 25846.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this document being tendered?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Robinson?  Yes, we'll admit it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6599.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Now this document is a decision in relation to Zigic's co-accused

12     Mladen Dosen, and it actually is releasing him.  And at the

13     second-to-last paragraph on page 2 of the English, it says that the

14     Chamber also weighed the need to deploy him to the same unit on the

15     battle-field that he came from.  So again we see these reasons about

16     returning people to battle-fields.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number --

18             JUDGE KWON:  If you are tendering this document, ask him a

19     question whether he agrees with it.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:

21        Q.   Do you agree with what I've just said, that again this is another

22     indication of courts releasing people back to their units?

23        A.   As for this exhibit, I cannot say anything because I don't know

24     the essence.  I'm not familiar with the case.  This is one of the reasons

25     based on by-laws that units needed soldiers.  Now, releasing Mr. Dosen

Page 45706

 1     from detention, now, whether the court assessed all the reasons based on

 2     the law, if the reasons were not really there and he was released, then

 3     it's all right.  But if there were reasons to keep him in detention, then

 4     what the prosecutor says would be correct.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive this.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6600, Your Honours.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Exhibit 25841, please --

 8     65 ter number 25841, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dosen -- Mr. Dosen -- Mr. Radetic, while that document's

10     coming up, we saw a moment ago Mr. Zigic's appeal for release is --

11     Mr. -- he's kept in custody, that would be an opportunity to investigate

12     Zigic for all the crimes that he's committed at the Keraterm and Omarska

13     and even the Trnopolje camp which were known to the police and the

14     military; correct?

15        A.   Whether keeping Mr. Zigic in detention was an opportunity to

16     investigate other crimes that he had possibly committed, I don't think so

17     because he was kept in custody because of a particular crime.  The court

18     and the prosecutor's office have a lot of work to do in order to prove

19     the crime on account of which he is being kept in custody.

20        Q.   Mr. --

21        A.   Mr. Zigic appears before the military judiciary and the civilian

22     judiciary in I don't know how many cases.

23        Q.   Mr. Radetic, we've already established that when you have

24     evidence of a crime being committed, it should be investigated,

25     especially when it's a crime of murder.  While he was being detained on

Page 45707

 1     this charge, which related to 25.000 dollars, he could still have been

 2     investigated on the other crimes and additional crimes could have been

 3     bought, do you agree -- brought, do you agree?

 4        A.   Madam Prosecutor, at the prosecutor's office a criminal report

 5     arrives against a particular person.  It is the authorised police

 6     institution that submits it.  And in that report it says that -- and

 7     Marko Markovic committed such and such a crime and then there is a

 8     description.  Do you really expect someone at the prosecutor's office

 9     when they receive this kind of criminal report that they address the

10     police organ and say, Are there perhaps some other indications that this

11     person did something else too?

12        Q.   Mr. Radetic, you testified yesterday that you told Majstrovic

13     about crimes being comitted.  You said the whole town knew about crimes

14     being committed.  They have an obligation to investigate these matters,

15     the military police, the prosecutor's office.  Surely that's the case.

16     Now this document in front of us, 65 ter 25841, is a decision by

17     Vojin Maric, of the 8th of October, 1992, releasing Zoran Zigic from

18     custody.

19             Now, Zigic was never tried for these crimes was he?

20        A.   I don't know about that.  I think he was.  I think he was

21     prosecuted and convicted before a civilian lower court of Prijedor.  I

22     think it was on the charge of murder, but I cannot be sure because I was

23     not involved in that case.

24        Q.   He was --

25        A.   It's only as far as I can remember.

Page 45708

 1        Q.   Exhibit P03608 shows that the -- that he file was transferred to

 2     the civilian court in 2000.  He was never tried during the war.  But he

 3     was arrested in June 1993 and tried and convicted for the killing of a

 4     Serb civilian woman named Danka Petkovic - you're aware of that, aren't

 5     you? - and he was sentenced to 16 years in prison?

 6        A.   In town he killed a woman, and I know there was a trial involving

 7     that.

 8        Q.   So he's in custody twice for crimes committed against non-Serbs,

 9     he's released on both occasions, he's -- commits an offence against a

10     Serb victim, and he's tried and convicted and sentenced to 15 years in

11     prison.  That's the -- that's the -- the lot of it, isn't it?

12        A.   Well, I cannot judge what's the lot of it out of three facts.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have no further questions.  My time is up,

14     Your Honour.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering the last document?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6601, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency, thank you.

21     Good morning, your Excellencies.

22                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radetic.  While we have this

24     document before us, could you tell us -- first of all, look at the second

25     paragraph of the explanation, the statement of reasons, in fact, where

Page 45709

 1     they suggest that his detention be terminated, and the charge requires

 2     psychiatric expertise from the centre where the detainee had been in

 3     treatment.  Tell me, who was able to interfere with the judge's decision

 4     on custody?

 5        A.   As far as I know, nobody.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  While we are discussing this case and it's fresh in

 7     our minds, do you remember whether the criminal report dated 3rd July,

 8     65 ter 25842 and now it has a P number, it was written on the

 9     3rd of July?

10        A.   I really can't remember who drafted the criminal report.

11        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is off.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the request to place in

14     remand?  I think it's the basic prosecutor's office in Prijedor that

15     drafted that document.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   On the 3rd of July; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So Zigic writes his basic report?

20        A.   You mean Sikirica?

21        Q.   Can you tell us --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   -- whether this act by Sikirica is appropriate?

25             JUDGE KWON:  We need to be precise.  Shall we upload first

Page 45710

 1     Exhibit P6596?  I'm not sure, did you refer to this, Mr. Karadzic?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, your Excellency, but it's good

 3     to have it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, let's --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's good to have this one.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let's upload first P25842 which was admitted as

 7     Exhibit P6596.  So your question was about this document, yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Is this the request and was it sent on the 3rd of July?

11        A.   From the case file, we see that it was typed up on the 3rd and I

12     believe that from the reception stamp it's also the 3rd of July, 1992.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did this document have to be proceeded by certain actions before

15     the 3rd of July?

16        A.   Of course.  The pre-investigating proceedings by the police

17     forces, and the police then informed the prosecutor of all these facts.

18        Q.   Then on the 4th of July we see an Official Note written by

19     Mr. Sikirica.  What is the channel that this Official Note has to pass

20     through and could it be before this request for custody?

21        A.   No, it couldn't be before because it was written a day later --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when this was already filed in

24     court.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please put a pause between question and answer.

Page 45711

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreter and

 2     the parties.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So how long does this Official Note have to travel and what is

 5     the road it has to travel to the desk of the investigating judge?

 6        A.   The normal path would be for this Official Note by Dusko Sikirica

 7     to come first to the desk of the higher police officer to whom he sent

 8     it.  This higher police officer when he receives such a document, gives

 9     it to the crime investigation police for them to check because very

10     serious crimes are mentioned here.  The crime investigation department of

11     Prijedor municipality was supposed to carry out certain pre-investigating

12     proceedings concerning these allegations to check if these are indeed

13     true.  After that with a criminal report against the persons named in

14     this Official Note, they would approach the prosecutor's office in

15     Prijedor.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we just see --

17             JUDGE KWON:  But you remember that the decision to release Zigic

18     was finally issued on the 8th of October that year 1992.  So if --

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour, no, that was the

20     military court file -- the -- the civilian court file.  He was released

21     on the 9th of July.

22             JUDGE KWON:  On the 9th of July.  And he was arrested again, yes.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, he was arrested on the -- the

24     1st of July --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 45712

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- and then released and then again around the

 2     22nd of August.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So he was arrested and released at the end of the

 4     date on the 8th of October.

 5             So my question is:  The report written by Sikirica should have

 6     arrived before the military court by that date, i.e.,

 7     8th of October 1992, shouldn't it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So if there is any misunderstanding

 9     concerning this paragraph, this request to carry out an investigation was

10     written on the 3rd of July.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We are talking about Sikirica's Official Note

12     written on the 4th of July.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 4th of July.

14             JUDGE KWON:  It's D4140.  It will come to your monitor soon.

15             So my question again is that when the military court decided to

16     release Zigic, it could have this document before it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Zigic was already released on

18     the 9th of July and he was released by a civilian court, if I got the

19     dates right, based on a letter that I said was a forgery, signed

20     allegedly by Dusko Knezevic.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, so at that time that court may not have had

22     that information originating from Sikirica, but by October it could have

23     this information, couldn't it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all the way up to

25     8 July we are talking about the civilian court of Prijedor, but in

Page 45713

 1     October there is a military court.  I'm not sure that civilian police

 2     submitted and had the habit in practice of filing their documents with

 3     the military court as well.  I'm not sure about that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we briefly look

 7     at P6595.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Look at the lower bottom corner, what does it mean 24th August,

10     then 26th August, and then the 7th of September?  What are these

11     additions?

12        A.   What do you mean?

13        Q.   The lower bottom corner.  Do you see these dates, 24th August and

14     then some more additions?  What does it mean, "additional investigation"?

15        A.   I'm not sure, but these are individual documents made by the

16     prosecutor's office and sent to various addresses from the police

17     requesting them to run checks as well as other state agencies.

18        Q.   Pursuant to the Official Note by Sikirica, did you understand

19     that Mr. Sikirica was in favour of such action or against it?

20        A.   He qualified them as perpetrators of the most heinous crimes.  He

21     was certainly not trying to protect them.

22        Q.   So such actions by Zigic and his accomplices, was that the rule

23     or an exception?

24        A.   Obviously these were persons who constituted a glaring exception

25     compared to the vast majority of the population of Prijedor.

Page 45714

 1        Q.   This release from remand, does it mean termination of

 2     proceedings?

 3        A.   No, not at all.  Remand is just the most serious measure to

 4     ensure the presence of the accused, because it's contrary to basic human

 5     rights and freedoms.  As soon as reasons for using this harshest measure

 6     ceases, it is terminated, and the investigating judge takes care all the

 7     time during the proceedings to make sure whether these reasons for the

 8     harshest measure are still present or not.

 9        Q.   [No interpretation]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat his question, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Karadzic, you need to repeat

12     your question.  Interpreters couldn't hear that.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   My question was:  Which part of the reasons for remand custody is

15     eliminated when an accused confesses guilt?

16        A.   Well, one reason that is eliminated is disturbance to the public.

17     If that's the kind of crime that is charged, then even a confession does

18     not eliminate reasons for remand in custody.

19        Q.   Mr. Radetic, did you have any knowledge that I, as president of

20     the republic, come supreme commander, was interfering with the judiciary?

21        A.   No, certainly not.  If you want me to be quite honest, when I was

22     working in the military prosecutor's office, I really held a grudge

23     against the president of the republic because he didn't give us more

24     resources to work faster.

25        Q.   Thank you.  How would you connect these cases with the president

Page 45715

 1     of the republic?  What does the president have to do with when somebody

 2     would be released from remand custody or detained, et cetera?

 3        A.   The president would be abusing his authority and office very

 4     seriously if he tried to interfere with live cases; that is to say, cases

 5     that are being processed by the judiciary.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  This Dusko Knezevic who wrote this letter --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at this document, by

 8     the way.  It was 65 ter 25836 but now it has a P number.  Yes, there it

 9     is.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Apart from his signature, the signature of the person sending it,

12     do we see any reception stamps?  Do we see anything that makes this

13     document trustworthy?

14        A.   This is the reception stamp of the prosecutor's office, and we

15     see the number under which this was filed.  I've looked at many documents

16     describing all the things that these people had done, but this one I

17     haven't seen.  This was certainly a forgery.  Mr. Zigic was unfit to be a

18     member of the army.  He was never mobilised for that reason and it's out

19     of the question that he was part of that unit.

20        Q.   Is that the same man mentioned in Sikirica's letter?

21        A.   Yes, it's the same person, the same person who was involved

22     together with him in these crimes.

23        Q.   There was a bit of confusion about the location of the command

24     and the location of the unit.  Tell me, how far is

25     Zarko Zgonjanin Barracks away from the unit?

Page 45716

 1        Q.   It's not less than 3 or 4 kilometres.  It's an entirely different

 2     part of town.  It's on the Banja Luka-Prijedor main road, the unit, and

 3     the barracks is along the Prijedor-Dubica thoroughfare.  Totally

 4     different roads.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radetic, for your testimony.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then that concludes your evidence,

 8     Mr. Radetic.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for

 9     your coming to The Hague to give it.  You are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Goodbye.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE KWON:  And the next witness is Mr. Torbica?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll hear his evidence after the break.  But

16     before we take a break, the Chamber is going to issue an oral ruling.

17             The Chamber will now issue an oral ruling on the accused's

18     "Motion to Reclassify Status of Intercept Exhibits," filed on the

19     17th January, 2014, in which the accused requests that the Chamber

20     reclassify the status of 20 intercepts, which were previously "marked as

21     not admitted" by the Chamber because it was not satisfied of their

22     authenticity at that time.  The accused submits that it has been the

23     Chamber's practice to mark intercepts for identification pending

24     authentication by "officials of the Croatian and Bosnian governments" and

25     he intends to call such officials to testify in February 2014; therefore,

Page 45717

 1     to maintain consistency and avoid confusion, he argues that the

 2     intercepts should be reclassified as marked for identification.

 3             The Prosecution responded on the 20th of January, 2014, stating

 4     that it does not take a position on the accused's request; however,

 5     noting that changing the status of the intercepts at this stage of the

 6     proceedings is unnecessary as their current status does not prevent the

 7     accused from presenting further evidence which could ultimately lead to

 8     their admission.

 9             The Chamber first notes that the accused includes Exhibit D1787

10     and D2029 in the motion; however, both have been fully admitted into

11     evidence.  D2029 was admitted into evidence through

12     Witness Vladimir Lukic on the 23rd of May, 2013.  The Chamber further

13     notes that D1787 was never marked as not admitted and, as noted by the

14     Prosecution, the accused seems to refer to D1747 instead of D1787.  As

15     such, the Chamber will consider the accused's request to include D1747,

16     not D1787.

17             The Chamber notes that in its decision of the

18     7th of December, 2012, and the 7th of August, 2013, it marked the

19     intercepts as not admitted because as a "special category" of evidence,

20     intercepts may only be admitted into evidence if the Chamber is satisfied

21     of their authenticity either after hearing from the relevant intercept

22     operators or a participant in the conversations or after judicial notice

23     of their authenticity has been taken, and the accused had not

24     demonstrated either with respect to the intercepts.  The Chamber

25     considers that the status of "marked as not admitted" does not preclude

Page 45718

 1     the accused from making further submissions to demonstrate the

 2     authenticity of the intercepts, at which point, if satisfied, the Chamber

 3     will fully admit them into evidence.  The Chamber therefore does not find

 4     it necessary to reclassify the status of the intercepts and thus denies

 5     the motion.

 6             We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 5 to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO TORBICA

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Torbica.  Please be seated and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Torbica, before you commence your evidence I

19     must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here

20     at the international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you

21     may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor,

22     or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

23     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

24     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

25     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

Page 45719

 1     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

 2     answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

 3     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

 4     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

 5     would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

 6     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

 7     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.  Do you understand

 8     that, sir?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

12                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Torbica.  Straight away I

14     would have to ask you, and I have to remind myself, that we should speak

15     slowly and that we should make pauses between my questions and your

16     answers.  But first and foremost, good morning to you, sir.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Have you provided a statement to my Defence team?

19        A.   Yes, I have.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21     1D9662.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you see that statement before you, Mr. Torbica?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read the statement and did you sign it?

Page 45720

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 3     the last page and could he identify his signature?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect what you said

 7     to my Defence team or are there perhaps some errors that need to be

 8     corrected?

 9        A.   Yes, whatever I stated is accurately reflected in this statement.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today as

11     were put to you by members of my Defence team, would your answers in

12     essence be the same as those in the statement?

13        A.   In essence they would be absolutely the same.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this statement be admitted

16     pursuant to Rule 92 ter?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec, do you have any objection?

18             MR ZEC:  Good morning.  No, no objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4228, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And now I'm going to

23     read a short summary of Mr. Zdravko Torbica's statement in English.

24             [In English] Zdravko Torbica was a member of the SJB Prijedor.

25     He was involved in the war from the beginning, securing the railway lines

Page 45721

 1     and conducting traffic checks in border areas.  He noticed that in late

 2     1991 and early 1992 there was an increased number of buses transporting

 3     non-Serbs from Prijedor to Croatia and Slovenia.  He was, therefore,

 4     aware that something was happening but was not aware of what and there

 5     was no proof of any weapons.  However, Zdravko Torbica discovered the

 6     check-points when he was asked to accompany the ambulance carrying

 7     injured soldiers because the Green Berets had blocked the roads.

 8             Zdravko Torbica was on duty in SJB on 29th of May, 1992, when

 9     Prijedor town and SJB were attacked.  The attack began with an explosion

10     from the direction of the secondary school and the sound of infantry

11     fire.  Fire was not returned as the officers were not certain of the

12     situation and indeed received orders not to return fire.  The telephone

13     lines were down and the only communication they had was via radio to the

14     police station at Urije.  The next day the soldiers were informed that

15     the town had been attacked and there had been attempts to take over the

16     building of the municipality as well as the SJB; once this situation was

17     established, the order was given to defend the building.

18             Due to the lack of communication, the officers were unable to

19     warn their colleagues coming to start the next shift and a number of them

20     were wounded in the cross-fire.  One of the wounded officers was targeted

21     from a house near the station and killed.  Due to the heavy infantry

22     fire, the officers were not able to help their colleagues.

23             The perimeter of the MUP was guarded to stop members of the

24     opposing forces from the entire -- from entering to the building.

25     Assistance was provided by the police station at Urije; however, the

Page 45722

 1     vehicle they were travelling in also came under the heavy fire and a

 2     further police officers -- officer was injured.  Military police arrived

 3     in addition to assist but were unable to enter the building.  The firing

 4     stopped only when a tank arrived and stopped in front of the building.

 5             Five police officers were killed, one wounded, and eight soldiers

 6     were killed too.

 7             From April the 29th, 1992, until the June the 1st, 1992,

 8     19 members of the Serb police and army were killed and 29 wounded by the

 9     Muslim forces.

10             And now I would like to clarify several things live with

11     Mr. Torbica.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Torbica, after the war did you undergo the certification

14     process and were you certified, and, as a result of that, were you able

15     to continue working in the police?

16        A.   After the end of war, my professional career continued in the

17     police station for traffic safety in Prijedor until the year 2005 when I

18     resigned because I wanted to be retired and I had all the conditions in

19     place for that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  After the war, who was it who checked the

21     professionalism of our policemen?  Who was it who was in charge of

22     issuing certificates?

23        A.   Immediately after the end of the war in 1997, members of the

24     international forces arrived in my police station and they stayed there

25     up to the moment when I was pensioned off.  They were mentors in our

Page 45723

 1     police station and they checked and looked at every individual to see

 2     whether they satisfied all the conditions to work there.

 3        Q.   As a member -- as a member of the traffic safety police, did you

 4     have an occasion to escort convoys?  Did you know anything about the

 5     movement of convoys or the movement of civilians both of Serb and

 6     non-Serb ethnicity?  Could you please tell us what you saw in that sense

 7     and what you were able to do?

 8        A.   In 1991, one of the tasks of the police station was to escort

 9     vehicles who were over-sized as it were, including military vehicles,

10     that moved through the area covered by my police station.  In 1991, that

11     happened very often.  As from the civilian police sector, very often

12     escorted such vehicles and those vehicles were wider and heavier than

13     normal.  They were always escorted by the civilian police, and the reason

14     for that was safety of all the other participants in road traffic.

15        Q.   And can you tell us about the routes that those military vehicles

16     travelled?  Were those military vehicles and on what routes they moved?

17        A.   I don't know why those vehicles travelled.  Our task was to

18     escort them through the areas that we covered in Prijedor.  Whether they

19     also took in -- went in other directions, for example, Banja Luka or the

20     Republic of Croatia, I suppose they did.  They went wherever they needed

21     to go.  They were mostly military vehicles.  There were also other

22     vehicles that escorted them under the law, but we escorted them and those

23     transports obviously included convoys that moved in various directions.

24        Q.   Could you please tell us about those convoys?  Were they those

25     convoys of civilians, did you know anything about the arrival of refugees

Page 45724

 1     from Croatia, did you know anything about departures from Prijedor, and

 2     did you play a role in all that?

 3        A.   First of all, all those things happened in 1991.  My police

 4     station where I worked secured the railway line because we had been

 5     informed that the sabotage groups would blow it up, so we had to guard it

 6     during the night.  After that, my police station was deployed on the

 7     border with the Republic of Croatia in Jasenovica and we stayed there

 8     until the moment when the bridge was blown up by the Croatian forces, and

 9     then we were moved in depth in Republika Srpska, and we stayed at that

10     check-point for some time.  I can't remember the dates.  Our role at

11     those check-points was to monitor the situation and the movement of

12     people.  We did not do anything with this regard.  We only drafted

13     Official Notes in order to inform our superior about any security

14     developments.

15             And when it comes to the escort of those military convoys, I

16     personally participated in the escort of a tank convoy.  I don't know

17     what number it was.  It moved from Banja Luka to Prijedor and its

18     destination was the sports airfield in Prijedor.  It stayed there for a

19     short while in that area, and I know that people -- a certain number of

20     people of other ethnic groups in Prijedor were not very happy about that

21     convoy, and I know that a certain number of citizens who prevented state

22     organs from doing their job were reported to the police, criminal reports

23     were filed against them, and they included some police officers.  I don't

24     know how the whole thing ended up.  I don't know what happened to those

25     criminal reports.  But I know that against some of the civilian

Page 45725

 1     population, including the president of the municipality, some police

 2     officers in Prijedor, criminal reports were filed but I don't know what

 3     the outcome of that was.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you to slow down to help the work

 5     of our interpreters.

 6             And now can you tell us -- or, rather, you say that the president

 7     of the municipality was involved in the incidents when the work of the

 8     military was obstructed.  When was that and was it legal?

 9        A.   I believe that that happened sometime in 1991.  Whether that was

10     legal or lawful, I don't know.  I suppose not because my colleagues from

11     the crime prevention police deemed it necessary to file a criminal report

12     against him.  That's why I think that that gesture on their part was not

13     lawful.

14        Q.   And now could you tell us something about the year 1992.  Did you

15     know anything about the movement of civilians of non-Serb and Serb

16     ethnicities -- or, rather, of Croatian and Muslim ethnicities?  Was your

17     public security station -- or, rather, your traffic control police

18     involved in all that?  Did you assist?  Did you regulate something in

19     that respect?

20        A.   Whenever we received official requests in that respect, obviously

21     my police station would meet such requests.  Whoever thought that they

22     needed assistance of traffic police, we extended that assistance.  When I

23     worked at that check-point that I spoke about, our only task was to

24     control people who were interesting from the security point of view for

25     our service and send reports and Official Notes.  Those were the only

Page 45726

 1     actions that we were allowed and we did undertake.

 2        Q.   Did the police - not your police but -- because you regulated

 3     traffic.  Did the police move people out?  Did the police force somebody

 4     to form convoys and to move in the direction of Croatia, Slovenia, or

 5     Central Bosnia?  According to what you know, how were those convoys

 6     formed?  Who was it who requested from you to escort those convoys?

 7        A.   I don't know from where these requests came.  In the morning when

 8     we would assume our duties, in our patrol orders for that day, we

 9     received specific tasks.  I also don't know -- actually, I'm just talking

10     about the traffic police now.  I don't know that it exercised any kind of

11     influence in terms of taking an adverse attitude towards other citizens

12     of other ethnic backgrounds because our patrols were still mixed patrols

13     at the time; that is to say, until the take-over and five or six days

14     after that, in each and every patrol there would be a mixed composition,

15     there would be one Serb and one Muslim.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Further on during 1992 when the war was already

17     underway, did your service escort convoys?  Who was in those convoys and

18     which directions did they go to?

19        A.   Yes, my police station secured convoys in all directions.  Now,

20     who set what these directions would be and who channeled them, who said

21     that they should go north, south, east, west, we really did not know.  In

22     my view it was done by the civilian authorities in the town of Prijedor.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have an opportunity to help Croatian

24     civilians from other parts of Bosnia to cross over a certain territory?

25     Do you remember any such examples?

Page 45727

 1        A.   Yes.  This was an order, a dispatch of yours that was sent to the

 2     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.  The

 3     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska sent that further down to my

 4     police station, and I accepted -- or, actually, it wasn't that I accepted

 5     this, I was designated to be the escort of this civilian convoy

 6     throughout the territory of the Republika Srpska.  This convoy involved

 7     citizens, women, children, the wounded, and other persons from the

 8     territory of Vares that was under the control of Muslim Croat forces.

 9     And this happened in 1993 when there was a conflict between the Muslim

10     and Croat sides.  I don't know on which basis but then you agreed on

11     that; namely, that this convoy of civilians, women, children, should go

12     throughout Republika Srpska to Livno.  That is about 860 kilometres away.

13             During that trip good and bad things happened, sad things, all

14     sorts of things that can happen in life, but I am proud today to say

15     2.007 civilians, and I believe there were even more, arrived at their

16     destination without a single negative gesture being involved, without any

17     such thing happening in the territory of Republika Srpska.

18             Although I had difficult problems to deal with, there were some

19     people who were not under the control of the "armija" or the Army of

20     Republika Srpska or the MUP.  That happened to me at Romanija when I and

21     my policemen protected these people with our own lives, lest they fall

22     into the hands of these irresponsible people who were not under anybody's

23     control.  I remember that the leader of that group stopped me, asked who

24     this was and what this was, generally, and I said that this was an order

25     of the president of the state.  And he said, Which state?  And then I

Page 45728

 1     answered him, Well, I guess it's yours and mine.  Then that person

 2     responded by saying that you were not his president and that you could

 3     not issue orders in the territory that is under his command.  At that

 4     moment, there was a fierce showdown between my police that I commanded

 5     and this group that wanted to steal things from the people who were in

 6     this convoy.  That was my assessment.  At any rate, they didn't succeed

 7     in doing that.  I was even wounded during that clash and it was only

 8     after that that I managed to go through all of Romanija with that convoy.

 9     We reached Sokolac, and then the assistant commander of the police

10     station in Sokolac who was involved in traffic security, I told him about

11     all of that and then he told me that there were many such groups in the

12     territory of Romanija and that nobody could control them, the army or the

13     police.

14             Now this other gesture, this was something I experienced in

15     Milici because this was a convoy of 72 vehicles.  Some of them were

16     buses, some of them were trucks.  And then because of some of the

17     obstacles that were on the road, the convoy was stopped.  On the

18     right-hand side, if you look at the way in which we were moving, on the

19     other side there was also another large convoy that had been stopped and

20     they were transporting soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska, and I

21     had a remarkable experience then.  The soldiers from that other convoy,

22     it was very difficult to do something like that and very risky at the

23     time.  The soldiers from that convoy were giving food to the people from

24     the other convoy, these women and children.  As for food and medicine in

25     that convoy, there was very little of that, and my policemen told me that

Page 45729

 1     they had major problems on account of hunger.  We tried to make do as far

 2     as water was concerned.

 3             When entering Banja Luka, I could establish radio contact with my

 4     superior command, and I asked for the problem of food and medicine to be

 5     resolved for these people in some way.  The duty officers in Banja Luka

 6     told me that they would contact the Red Cross in Banja Luka and also the

 7     head of the operations duty service asked me to address

 8     Mr. Franjo Komarica directly in Banja Luka which is what I did.  I left

 9     my deputy on the spot there and I went to the church in Banja Luka and I

10     addressed Mr. Komarica and I explained to him what the situation was

11     regarding these people in this convoy.

12             After 10 or 15 minutes, I saw this wonderful image there.  The

13     Red Cross together with Caritas from Banja Luka gave enough food and

14     medicine and water to these people, and that kept them going all the way

15     to the separation line between Grahovo and Livno.

16             Upon arriving in Livno, or, rather, the separation line, I had

17     the hand over of this convoy together with members of the HVO, and today

18     these people send me more greetings for my patron saint's day and other

19     holidays than other people do, and I'm proud of having carried out this

20     task that was ordered by you, Mr. Karadzic.  And I and my policemen

21     carried that out.  To this day this is being referred to in the area as a

22     major humanitarian achievement.  I did not participate in any others but

23     I heard that there were other such convoys when there was a conflict

24     between the Muslims and the Croats.  But on the basis of the contacts I

25     had with my other colleagues who handled these other convoys, their

Page 45730

 1     experience was similar to what I had experienced.

 2        Q.   [No interpretation]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

 4     beginning of Mr. Karadzic's statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please repeat, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you please briefly respond to three questions:  What was

 8     the ethnicity of these civilians; how long did this journey last; and

 9     Mr. Franjo Komarica, what was his function?

10        A.   This was only civilians of Croat ethnicity, 100 per cent.

11     Franjo Komarica is the bishop of Banja Luka.  And as far as I know, he is

12     one of the main people in the Catholic church in Banja Luka.  You asked

13     me something else, didn't you?

14        Q.   How long.

15        A.   How long this journey was?  When the vehicles were taken in Livno

16     and then travelling to Livno from Vares, this journey lasted for more

17     than 15 days.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Torbica.  I have no further questions.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Zec.

21             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

23        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Torbica.  Let me first ask you about

24     your political background.  You are a member of the SDS; right?

25        A.   When I ended my professional service -- I mean, I could not have

Page 45731

 1     been politically active when I was a member of the Ministry of the

 2     Interior.  I said that in 2004 I was pensioned off, or, rather, I left

 3     the professional service.  And from 2007, yes, that is right, I got

 4     involved in politics.

 5        Q.   In 1995, Mr. Karadzic awarded with a golden medal for bravery for

 6     all the efforts you took upon yourself during the war; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  Roughly in the proposal --

 8        Q.   I appreciate short answer to the question.  I think "yes" was

 9     enough, and then I'll show you one document and then I'll ask you the

10     question.

11             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25824.

12        Q.   And what you're going to see on the screen is Mr. Karadzic's

13     decree on decorations to the members of the Ministry of the Interior.

14     And it says that:

15             "To those who represent remarkable example, heroism ..."

16             MR ZEC:  And we need now page 8.

17        Q.   So here we will be able to see the title of the decoration.

18             MR ZEC:  And now we need the next page in B/C/S, page 10 in

19     English.

20        Q.   If you look item number 49, you should be able to see your name;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   I cannot answer this question with a yes or no only, and for the

23     following reasons --

24        Q.   Number 49.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 45732

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR ZEC:  I will tender this document, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  But what are the relevant pages?  Page 1 and

 4     page -- this page and the previous page.  Three pages would be enough?

 5             MR ZEC:  If you prefer excerpt, that's fine.  But maybe you will

 6     be better assisted if you have all of them.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have three pages at the moment.  Yes, we'll

 8     admit it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As P6602, Your Honours.

10             MR ZEC:

11        Q.   Mr. Torbica, you testified previously before the court of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina in two cases related to the events in

13     Koricanske Stijene.  In both cases you testified as a defence witness;

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you told the truth to the court; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now we have -- we will focus a little bit on 1992.  The SDS and

19     Serb officials organised and implemented -- implemented the take-over of

20     Prijedor which took place in late 1992; that's correct, isn't it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   One of the steps the Serb authorities took in preparations for

23     the take-over was to organise a reserve police; right?

24        A.   Reserve police station.  I didn't take part in that.

25             MR ZEC:  Can we have a look at 65 ter 18336.

Page 45733

 1        Q.   And this is a dispatch sent from Prijedor police station to the

 2     Banja Luka CSB in May 1992.  It provides information on the structure of

 3     your police station.  And if you look at the last paragraph, it says:

 4             "The new war structure, which is functioning now, was prepared

 5     during secret preparations for the take-over and it's ready to meet its

 6     obligations."

 7             So, Mr. Torbica, the take-over as well as the structure of the

 8     police station where you were working was prepared in advance and in

 9     secret; correct?

10        A.   No, my police station, the one that I worked in, did not take

11     part in the take-over.  It was there like all the other police stations,

12     but it did not play any role in the take-over of power.  The structure in

13     my police station remained the same just like before the war except for

14     those policemen who had left our police stations.  We took in reserve

15     policemen so that we could carry out all our professional duties and have

16     the right number of policemen in the station.

17             MR ZEC:  I will tender this document, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6603, Your Honours.

20             MR ZEC:  And if we can have now P02968.

21        Q.   And with regard your statement just what you told us, that the

22     police did not participate in the take-over.  Now you will be able to see

23     SJB Prijedor report on the work for the last nine months of 1992.

24             MR ZEC:  And we need page 2, paragraph 2.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could we just be

Page 45734

 1     precise.  The witness is talking about a traffic control station.  There

 2     should be no confusion.  That's a separate station.

 3             MR ZEC:

 4        Q.   Mr. Torbica, your traffic control section was within police

 5     Prijedor in town in the same building; right?

 6        A.   It was not a section.  It was a police station for traffic

 7     security under the direct control of the security services centre,

 8     Banja Luka, based in the police station; that is to say, the public

 9     security station of Prijedor.

10        Q.   And you were under direct command of station Commander-in-Chief

11     at that time?  I'm talking about after the take-over.  That's

12     Simo Drljaca; correct?

13        A.   Perhaps only in the early days in the transition period.  But

14     Simo Drljaca in the public security station never had jurisdiction over

15     the traffic security station because we fell directly under the security

16     services centre of Banja Luka.  With the establishment of the security

17     services centre Prijedor in 1993, my station began to be under the

18     security services centre of Prijedor, directly.  But as long as we had a

19     public security station in Prijedor, my station was under the direct

20     control of the security services centre Banja Luka.

21        Q.   So from whom would you receive orders, from Drljaca in the police

22     station Prijedor or someone from Banja Luka?

23        A.   From the establishment of the security services centre Prijedor,

24     all orders were received from Mr. Drljaca, and all orders concerning the

25     traffic control station came from the CSB Banja Luka, the traffic

Page 45735

 1     security section.

 2        Q.   In the document before, we can see it again, Drljaca says this is

 3     our police station, this is a structure, and he provides the information

 4     section on the traffic section.

 5             MR ZEC:  We can have the document before back?  That one was

 6     65 ter 18336, item number 5.

 7        Q.   He says, "The police" -- "There is a police station for road

 8     safety ..." and security.

 9             So this is within police station Prijedor.  That's your

10     difference to you?

11        A.   Precisely.  This document says exactly what I stated earlier.  In

12     Prijedor there is a traffic security station, not a section.  And he only

13     says here that it exists in Prijedor.  I don't see anywhere in the

14     document that he commands over that station.

15        Q.   And we have many other documents about the structure of the

16     police.  But let me ask you this:  Regardless of your section, other

17     police officers -- Serb police officers, they participated in the

18     take-over of the power in Prijedor; that's correct, right?

19        A.   Yes, except the police station for traffic security.  And if you

20     want me to describe its role, I can.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure I'm following you, Mr. Torbica.  Take a

22     look at item number 8 in this document.  It says:

23             "The new war structure anticipates 13 police stations plus the

24     police station for road safety and traffic control."

25             It talks about, in total, 14 police stations.  Are these stations

Page 45736

 1     not under the command of Drljaca at the time?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My police station for road safety,

 3     he says 13 plus the station for road safety, makes 14.  Now, what

 4     Mr. Drljaca meant when he wrote this, I don't know really.  But

 5     organisationally speaking, what I'm saying is the truth.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Please continue, Mr. Zec.

 8             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   And about the role of your section in 1992, you already told us

10     about it this morning, but one of the tasks that your section was

11     performing was manning check-points in Prijedor together with the

12     military force; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And also as you were talking about at the time, people were

15     deported from the municipality and your section assisted in this

16     deportation; right?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When was this said?  Could we have

18     a reference, please?  When did the witness say that there had been

19     deportations?

20             MR ZEC:  The witness was talking about the movement of convoys.

21     So, in any event, this is my question to the witness about the

22     deportation.  He can answer that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Time-frame?

24             MR ZEC:  I'm talking about 1992.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 45737

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about deportations,

 2     but it is true that my police station - and I've stated this many times

 3     already - provided services of escort for transports.  What does that

 4     imply?  Physical security and traffic security are two separate things.

 5     Traffic security means that at the head of a convoy of ten or so

 6     vehicles, there is a police vehicle that will inform or let other

 7     vehicles in traffic of the convoy [as interpreted].  And it makes the

 8     transport safe in terms of rest time, in terms of speed, et cetera.  That

 9     is what escort security means.

10             MR ZEC:

11        Q.   And physical security of the convoy was provided by other members

12     of the police station Prijedor?

13        A.   Yes, that's true.  Physical security was provided by general

14     stations; that is to say, the public security station of Prijedor except

15     for the convoy that I described where both physical and traffic security

16     was provided by the station for road safety and traffic control of

17     Prijedor.

18        Q.   Another task of yours was a terrain search jointly with army

19     members looking for unknown armed groups; correct?

20        A.   No, no, I don't know any such thing.

21             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25812.

22        Q.   And this is a CS -- SJB Prijedor report on a terrain search.  If

23     you see the name of the drafter or signatures, we see your name.  This is

24     your name; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 45738

 1        Q.   It says the operation was carried with 30 policemen and about

 2     20 VRS members.  You took part in this operation; right?

 3        A.   Here in this document I see a typewritten name, but I also see

 4     this report was written by the sector leader.  I was indeed sector leader

 5     and sector is one area within the area.  Those are local and regional

 6     roads in the territory of Prijedor and the street network in Prijedor

 7     town.  I haven't read the report.  If you want me, I can read it and then

 8     comment.

 9        Q.   It's very simple.  It's a report on a search of the terrain and

10     it's drafted by you, and it says, including, among others things, that

11     policemen and VRS took part in this.  All I'm saying, this is your name

12     and you took part in this; right?

13        A.   I recognise it.  I recognise this part of my report.  It's true.

14     I led the policemen via Ljubija to show them the way so they can enter

15     this area because I had been in this area, but I didn't participate in

16     the search of the terrain.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Torbica.

18             MR ZEC:  I will tender this document, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6604, Your Honours.

21             MR ZEC:

22        Q.   After the take-over, Mr. Torbica, many non-Serbs were brought to

23     your police station for interrogations; right?

24        A.   No.  Nobody was brought in for interrogation into my station.

25     They were brought to the public security station.

Page 45739

 1        Q.   Well, I appreciate you trying to distinguish traffic section

 2     police and uniform police, but that's the same building.  So you saw

 3     people coming and were being brought to the police station; right?

 4        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I'm not trying to do anything.  I'm just telling

 5     the truth about the distinction between the station for road safety and

 6     traffic control and the public security station.  My office was on the

 7     third floor facing north, and the entrance door was in the middle of the

 8     building, and the auxiliary door leading into the compound was on the

 9     south side.  So I could not see even physically what was going on on the

10     lower floor because all my work took place in my own office.  It didn't

11     lead me to other offices.

12        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence of non-Serbs being brought to

13     the -- to the police station where they were beaten and interrogated, and

14     after that transferred to Omarska.

15             MR ZEC:  P2095, P3478, P3528.

16        Q.   And you knew this, Mr. Torbica, that people were brought to the

17     police station being interrogated, being beaten; right?

18        A.   That people were brought in to the station, that much is true.  I

19     don't know why.  I never witnessed any beating, especially because I

20     never spent much time in the part of the building where people were

21     brought in and questioned because that was not my job and it was not the

22     job of any other policeman in the station for road safety and traffic

23     control.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 45740

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 24, it seems the witness says,

 2     "I don't know why," and the witness actually said, "I don't know on what

 3     basis."  Perhaps the distinction is not great, but it's more professional

 4     to say he doesn't know on what basis they were brought in.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We could understand that.

 6             Shall we continue.

 7             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25823.

 8        Q.   And these are notes of what a victim witness said during an

 9     interview.

10             MR ZEC:  And we need page 2, paragraph 2.

11        Q.   The witness said that he was arrested in his apartment and

12     brought to the police station.  He said:

13             "When I arrived, a policeman named Tomo took my personal details.

14     One of the policemen, Zdravko Torbica, asked me what I was doing there

15     and hit me in the head and stomach.  They never told me why I was

16     arrested.  I was put in a cell, and there I saw Bato Deomic.  From here,

17     Bato and I were taken to Omarska."

18             So, Mr. Torbica, the fact is you were involved in beatings of

19     prisoners; right?

20        A.   That is not true.  This gentleman you mention, Tomo, was indeed a

21     member of the road safety station, but I don't remember I was ever

22     present at such an event.  Maybe you can show me the whole document.

23     Maybe if I read the whole thing, perhaps I could recall something from

24     this document.

25        Q.   So you're denying that you beat anyone in the prison -- in the

Page 45741

 1     police station, actually, not prison; right?

 2        A.   There is no citizen in the town of Prijedor or the municipality

 3     of Prijedor who could confirm today what is written in this document.  I

 4     state this with full responsibility because I am not that kind of person.

 5     I am a professional policeman, a trained policeman, and I did not

 6     participate in any beatings, especially beatings of people who had

 7     nothing to do with my area and with my line of work.  This man who is

 8     stating this, I don't know who he is, I don't know what he is.

 9        Q.   Let's talk about your task of escorting convoys.  You talked

10     about escorting convoys of -- of military convoys.  And, for example, if

11     there is a convoy transporting any sensitive goods in your area of

12     responsibility, you and your section would provide assistance to such

13     transport; right?

14        A.   I said at the beginning, we escorted convoys which were outsized

15     or carried valuable cargo, anything that was required of the road safety

16     station.  We carried out all the orders, although it depended on who was

17     on duty.

18        Q.   Let's say there was a crime site with a lot of human bodies that

19     needed to be removed and transported to a burial site, so human bodies

20     being transported, very sensitive transport.  You and your section would

21     provide assistance in such situation; right?

22        A.   I did not participate in that and I never heard that the police

23     station for road safety in Prijedor ever provided assistance of that

24     sort.

25        Q.   Tomasica, a big mining site in Prijedor area; correct?

Page 45742

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Tomasica mine was used as a burial site for many hundreds of

 3     bodies of Muslims and Croats who were killed in Prijedor area in 1992;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   I found out about that only when the mass grave in Tomasica was

 6     discovered.

 7        Q.   And your section assisted in escorting these transports to

 8     Tomasica; right?

 9        A.   I personally did not participate in such escorts.  I don't know.

10     And as far as I know, I think that my police station did not participate

11     in escorts of such -- such ...

12             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25860.

13        Q.   And this is an article published in "Blic" in Serbia in November

14     last year.  And you already talked about Tomasica mine being exhumed.

15     And this, what you're going to see on the screen, is one of many articles

16     and news reports published regarding the ongoing exhumations at Tomasica.

17        A.   Could we zoom in, make this larger so I can read?

18        Q.   Perhaps if we can zoom like the bold part and then later the

19     first -- the paragraph at the bottom.  But you will be able to see that

20     in the first paragraph it talks about 430 remains have been exhumed so

21     far, among which 275 complete bodies.  And in the last paragraph on your

22     page, it's second page in English, it says that among the documents that

23     were found there are those belonging to people killed in Biscani on

24     20 July 1992.

25             So, Mr. Torbica, you know about this site has been discovered and

Page 45743

 1     being exhumed as indicated in this article; right?

 2        A.   I've already said how I found out about the Tomasica location.

 3     When it was discovered and when it was reported by the media, I found out

 4     then.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Prosecutor

 8     to specify:  Does he claim that the entire number was killed in Biscani

 9     or it relates to only one family?  I mean the citation of the words of

10     one policeman.

11             JUDGE KWON:  His question was this, it said this document says

12     that:

13             "... among the documents that were found there are those

14     belonging to people killed in Biscani ..."

15             I think that was fair enough.  You can explore further, if

16     necessary, later on.

17             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  But if you would like to clarify, you may do so.

19     Absolutely.

20             Yes, please continue, Mr. Zec.

21             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And you were right, I was

22     just referring what is in the article.  I was not saying that this is 400

23     from Biscani.  It's just what has been exhumed so far.

24        Q.   Mr. Torbica, this Chamber has also received evidence regarding

25     the discussions that your chief, Simo Drljaca, had with VRS officers in

Page 45744

 1     1993, during which they discussed Tomasica mine, where 5.000 Muslim

 2     bodies were buried and that the world knows about this from the released

 3     prisoners.

 4             MR ZEC:  This is in P1483, page 154, 155.

 5        Q.   So having been reminded about the size and the scale of this

 6     clandestine burial facility for non-Serb bodies, do you still maintain

 7     that you, as a person responsible for the process of removal and transfer

 8     of sensitive -- sensitive transports, you somehow did not know about the

 9     hundreds, thousands of bodies buried at Tomasica or this, perhaps,

10     information refresh your memory?

11        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I never said that I was the person in charge of

12     something like that.  I don't know where you got that from.  I was never

13     responsible under any order whatsoever for such work that you are

14     referring to, I was never personally made responsible for such things,

15     and I never participated in such escorts.  As far as knowledge is

16     concerned, I didn't know because I was not at such a level of management

17     as to attend collegium meetings that were attended by Simo Drljaca as

18     well.  I was not on that level.  I was number four in my police station

19     at the time.  Ahead of me was the commander, then the deputy, then the

20     assistant, and I was sector leader, number four.

21        Q.   So are you saying to us that you were not involved in this but

22     your section might have been; is that you -- is that your evidence?

23        A.   I don't know anything about that.  I really don't.

24        Q.   Mr. Torbica, you talked at length about escorting convoys, army,

25     people, sensitive goods.  Now we have massive burial, bodies, hundreds,

Page 45745

 1     thousands of bodies in mass grave, and now suddenly you say you don't

 2     know anything about this?

 3        A.   I was talking exclusively about what I did.  This is my evidence,

 4     things that I participated in.  And the patrol orders that were issued by

 5     the police station commander were issued to me in my name for each and

 6     every activity that had to be performed, and this is what I'm talking

 7     about, the only thing that I'm talking about.

 8        Q.   And your colleagues in other section of the police or perhaps in

 9     your section were involved in these activities; is that your evidence?

10        A.   If I say something here, I have to know about those things.  And

11     if I repeat that I don't know and if I were to say that I knew something

12     about that - and I don't - I'm a professional, I'm a policeman, I know

13     that my every word has to be corroborated by evidence.  I can't answer by

14     saying that there were such things because I don't know.  I was not

15     involved.  I was not involved in such activities.

16             MR ZEC:  I tender this article, Mr. President.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  The witness doesn't --

18     hasn't confirmed anything about the article other than he heard -- he

19     read about this event in the newspaper in 2013.  This is not a proper

20     basis for admission.  And if this kind of evidence is important to the

21     Prosecutor, they can make a motion to reopen their case and present it

22     properly.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Mr. Zec?

24             MR ZEC:  The issue was simple, his knowledge about the Tomasica

25     mine.  And he said that he learned only from the media.  And I put to him

Page 45746

 1     one of the articles that is published -- being published at the time, and

 2     he confirmed this is how he learned about this.  So he confirmed the

 3     content of the article.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson's observation,

 6     and then I take it that your purpose has been accomplished by the

 7     transcript we have now.

 8             Shall we continue?  We'll not admit this.

 9             MR ZEC:

10        Q.   Mr. Torbica, regarding the incident of 30th May, 1992, you say

11     there was no communication at the police station except for one radio

12     communication.  You said the telephone lines were down.  This is page 3

13     of your statement.

14             MR ZEC:  Can we have now 65 ter 25822.

15        Q.   And this is a story published in "Kozarski Vjesnik" in 1993 about

16     this event.

17             MR ZEC:  We need English page 3.

18        Q.   And in B/C/S, Mr. Torbica, if you look at the portion in second

19     row just above the -- just above this paragraph that we see in the

20     middle, which is the content of the conversation between Savo Golubovic

21     and Cvetjko Rendic about this event.

22             MR ZEC:  If we can scroll down in B/C/S, a little bit down -- oh,

23     sorry, then up.  Still up.  We need like the -- we need to see the --

24     further in the middle of the page.  Further, Mr. Registrar.

25        Q.   So, Mr. Torbica, you will see just above the paragraphs on

Page 45747

 1     your -- on your left side.  There is a -- and it says, quote:

 2             "'Is there a telephone up there,' Rendic asked him while pointing

 3     at the Ribar.

 4             "'There is, but it's locked,' Savo replied.

 5             "The two of them somehow managed to run across to the Ribar,

 6     force the door, and get to the phone.  Call the SUP.

 7             "'We're under attack, send help and ammunition,' Rendic said in a

 8     single breath.

 9             "'Most probably not a chance, because we're under attack here,

10     too,' the duty officer informed him."

11             Mr. Torbica, Ribar, Ribar is a restaurant in Prijedor; right?

12        A.   Yes.  Mr. Rendic was -- may I?

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, just -- let's hear him out.  Yes, please

14     continue.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Rendic was at the check-point

16     between Hotel Prijedor and the restaurant Ribar, which is about

17     800 metres away from the police station.  I don't know what time of day

18     is it in the morning, but at the moment when we wanted to inform our

19     colleagues who were supposed to relieve us of duty, what to expect, we

20     couldn't because the telephone lines were down at the moment.  I'm

21     talking about the time when we wanted to inform our colleagues not to

22     enter and risk their lives.  We wanted to save their lives.  We could not

23     inform them, and all four of them -- or, rather, all five of them were

24     killed as they were on their way to work to relieve us who were on duty.

25             MR ZEC:

Page 45748

 1        Q.   So the telephone lines were -- [Microphone not activated]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Microphone.

 3             MR ZEC:

 4        Q.   So the telephone lines were working, Mr. Torbica, Savo and

 5     Cvetjko went to restaurant and called the SUP.  It's not what he is

 6     saying that there was no -- that the lines were down.

 7        A.   What I'm saying is that we could not inform our colleagues by

 8     telephone.  Had we managed to inform them, they would still be alive

 9     today.  How did Mr. Rendic contact the public security station and at

10     what time?  I don't know.  At the end of the day, this is a newspaper

11     article.  This is not an official report.  I don't know what this

12     journalist wanted to say, what Rendic had told him.  Whether he had told

13     him the truth, I don't know.

14             MR ZEC:  [Microphone not activated]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, please.

16             MR ZEC:  I tender this article.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  In light of the Defence's non-opposition [Realtime

21     transcript read in error "Defence not having a position"], we'll admit

22     this.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6605, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have further cross-examination?

25             MR ZEC:  Nothing further.  Nothing further, thank you.

Page 45749

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, your Excellency.  No questions,

 4     thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The transcript should read:  "In light of the

 6     Defence's non-opposition," line 22.

 7             Yes, Mr. Torbica, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

 8     Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

 9     it.  You are free to go.  But we'll have a break for 45 minutes.  We'll

10     rise all together.  We resume at 5 past 1.00.

11                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13                           [The witness entered court]

14                           --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness make the solemn declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, do you hear me in your language?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Will you take the solemn declaration,

20     please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  BOSKO MANDIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.  Please be seated and make

Page 45750

 1     yourself comfortable.

 2             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Mandic, I must draw your

 3     attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the

 4     international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may

 5     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or

 6     even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

 7     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

 8     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

 9     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

10     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

11     answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

12     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

13     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation the Tribunal

14     would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

15     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

16     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.  Do you understand

17     that, Mr. Mandic?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please proceed.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mandic.

24        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

25        Q.   I have to ask you and I have to remind myself that we should both

Page 45751

 1     speak slowly and that we should make pauses between my questions and your

 2     answers and vice versa so that everything may be recorded and that we may

 3     avoid any waste of time.  As a result, the record will be clearer.

 4             Have you provided a statement to my Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 8     1D9661.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Please pay attention to the left side of the screen.  Do you see

11     your statement in Serbian?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And now do you -- uh-huh.  And now can you look at it?

14        A.   Yes, it's all right.  I can see it now.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And now could you tell us whether you have read this

16     statement and whether you've signed it?

17        A.   Yes, I have.

18        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation and I'm asking the same of

19     you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

21     last page where he will be able to identify his signature.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Is this indeed your signature, sir?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect what you told

Page 45752

 1     my Defence team?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today in the

 4     courtroom, would your answers in a sense be the same as in this

 5     statement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm tendering this statement

 9     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Ms. Gustafson?

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

12             No objections.  I just would like to put on the record a remark

13     about the leading nature of some of the questions that were asked which

14     have been provided in the statement.  So, for example, question 11 where

15     the witness was asked after the failed attack on Prijedor town:

16             "Why did the Muslims want to leave?"

17             Which, in a case where expulsions form such an essential part of

18     the allegations, it's obviously inappropriately leading.  Questions 18

19     and 19 are similarly problematic.  This, in our submission, goes to the

20     weight that the answers should be given.  And in light of the mounting

21     pattern of similar problems, this goes to the weight that should be

22     attributed generally to Defence Rule 92 ter statements.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit this.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4229, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 45753

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now I'm going to read a short

 2     summary of Mr. Bosko Mandic's statement in English.

 3             [In English] Bosko Mandic was a member of the Crisis Staff of

 4     Prijedor municipality in 1992.  On 16th of April, 1992, he was appointed

 5     deputy president of the Executive Board of the municipal assembly of

 6     Prijedor.

 7             After Slovenia and Croatia seceded from the SFRY and after the

 8     plebiscite for BH and the formation of the HDZ and SDA, the Serbian

 9     people realised that they had to get organised politically in order to

10     avoid the suffering of World War II be repeated.  After

11     9th of January, 1992, with the establishment of the Republika Srpska

12     Assembly, the Prijedor Serbian Assembly was also established.  Following

13     the peaceful take-over of power in Prijedor on 30th of May, 1992, the

14     National Defence Council made a decision that a crisis staff be

15     established in order to more easily overcome the new, complex political,

16     and security situation in the territory of Prijedor municipality.

17             Nobody from the authorities at the time organised or instigated

18     the removal of the non-Serb population.  However, a large mass of the

19     non-Serbian population felt economically, financially, and generally

20     unsafe after the political and security situation in BH became complex

21     and started leaving the municipality.  The people leaving were mainly

22     women, children, and elderly, with the able-bodied men staying behind.

23             The first incident in the territory of Prijedor municipality

24     happened on 22nd of May, 1992, when Croatian and Serbian soldiers were

25     stopped and killed at the check-point in Hambarine by Muslim paramilitary

Page 45754

 1     forces.  After various unfruitful attempts to peacefully resolve the

 2     situation, the Prijedor Crisis Staff issued an order to the police and

 3     army forces to remove the check-point in Hambarine and to bring the

 4     killers of the soldiers to justice.  At the same time, the political and

 5     military leadership of Prijedor municipality started negotiations with

 6     the representatives of the Kozarac Territorial Defence in order to

 7     establish normal traffic on the Prijedor-Banja Luka road.

 8             Civilians who did not wish to participate in the conflicts with

 9     the Serbs were accepted and kept in the town of Prijedor and Trnopolje

10     camp for their own safety until a decision was made on whether they

11     should leave or stay.  At the same time, Muslim paramilitary forces fled

12     to the woods of the Kozara mountain and organised occasional incursions

13     into the neighbouring villages of Bozici, Lamovita, and Babici during

14     which they massacred Serbian civilians in those villages.

15             After the attack on Prijedor on 30th of May, 1992, the majority

16     of the Muslims extremists decided to flee to other countries.  All those

17     non-Serbs who did not violate the law and did not possess weapons also

18     decided to leave Prijedor town and were helped by the local authorities

19     during this process.  Their departure was made possible and organised

20     through the Red Cross in Prijedor and International Red Cross.  Those

21     people who participated in combat or had been captured with weapons were

22     taken to the Omarska investigation centre and their criminal

23     responsibility was determined.  At the same time, a huge number of

24     Serbian refugees from Croatia and from other towns in BH under Muslim and

25     Croatian role, they arrived in Prijedor looking for accommodation.  The

Page 45755

 1     Prijedor Crisis Staff, through its regional staffs, accepted and

 2     registered the refugees and temporarily accommodated them in abandoned

 3     houses and apartments.

 4             The paramilitary formations which belonged to the Muslim and

 5     Croatian forces caused conflicts and incidents in the territory of

 6     Prijedor municipality.  Some of the Serbian villages were stormed, the

 7     houses were torched, and the civilians killed.  As for the paramilitary

 8     formations on the Serbian side, all people who were exempt of military

 9     service or declared unfit were to return weapons.

10             There were problems of communication with the central authorities

11     and the systems were down for an extended period of time.  The civil war

12     that broke out in BH was the result of centuries-long animosity, hatred,

13     and revenge, and if murders or incidents happened, they could only have

14     been perpetrated by individuals or groups which the authorities were

15     unable to place under control.

16             And I -- at that moment, I do not have additional questions for

17     Mr. Mandic.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             Mr. Mandic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this

20     case has been admitted in writing; that is, through your written

21     statement here.  And now you'll be cross-examined by the representative

22     of the Office of the Prosecutor.

23             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

Page 45756

 1        Q.   And good afternoon, Mr. Mandic.

 2        A.   Good afternoon to you, too.

 3        Q.   At paragraph 7 of your statement you talk about the take-over of

 4     power in Prijedor and you state that that was on the 30th of May, 1992.

 5     The evidence in this case indicates that that was -- that that take-over

 6     occurred on the 30th of April, 1992.  Do you accept that the take-over in

 7     fact took place on the 30th of April?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  And one more thing, if I may be allowed.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mandic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In paragraph 5 it says that

11     Mr. Karadzic said the vice-president of the Executive Board, whereas

12     Mr. Karadzic actually said "the deputy president," and I would like to

13     correct that.  The two things are different.  I don't want those two

14     things to clash.  That's on page 1, paragraph 5.  Mr. Karadzic said that

15     I was the deputy president because the deputy president is something

16     different than the vice-president.

17             THE ACCUSED:  The deputy prime minister of the municipality, as a

18     matter of fact that should be really "vice-president."

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure I'm following that, but I leave it

20     there.  I'll leave it to the parties to clarify further.

21             Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:

23        Q.   Just to follow up on that, Mr. Mandic, you confirm that paragraph

24     5 of your statement is correct:  You were the vice-president of the

25     Executive Committee of the Serb --

Page 45757

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   -- municipality?  Okay.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now back to the take-over on the 30th of April.  At paragraph 23

 5     you describe that take-over as a reaction to the telegram received on the

 6     29th of April.  But, in fact, it's true, is it not, that the Serb

 7     authorities in Prijedor had been preparing that take-over long before the

 8     29th of April and that telex was simply a trigger that accelerated the

 9     timing of something that had long been in preparation?

10        A.   Shall I answer?

11        Q.   Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we were aware of the time

14     that we lived in.  We were aware of our history before that, and we knew

15     that representatives of the SDA party had decided to take over entire

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina and what happened to the Serbian people in the

17     Second World War was supposed to happen to them again in the new war.

18     Those who were born, they have a family history where their uncles and

19     fathers paid with their lives, so we had to prevent anybody from doing

20     that again.  We wanted to avoid that danger, but we wanted to do it

21     without bloodshed or any new traumatic events.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:

23        Q.   So you agree, then, that the Prijedor SDS was preparing the

24     take-over of power in Prijedor long before receiving the telex on the

25     29th of April; is that right?

Page 45758

 1        A.   Well, let me put it this way:  We had to organise ourselves in

 2     one way or another through meetings, talks, negotiations, but it was done

 3     to a lesser extent than the SDA and terrorists who were prepared to do

 4     everything.  And you can see from the moment when power was taken over

 5     that nobody faired badly, nobody was wanting anything, either material

 6     goods or anything else.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we can go to P2968, please.

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, this is a Prijedor SJB report for the -- the

 9     last nine months of 1992.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 2 in both languages.

11        Q.   And in the second paragraph, the report refers to the

12     circumstances where it claims ethnic maps were being drafted which placed

13     Prijedor in the Cazin Krajina.  Activities were launched to prepare for a

14     take-over by force.  These activities gained momentum in April, and the

15     actual date of the take-over was forced upon us by the presidency.  And

16     it refers to the contents of the telex that you also refer to in your

17     statement.  And then it says:

18             "As a result in the night between 29 and 30 April, 1992,

19     following very detailed preparations and pursuant to the relevant

20     decision of the Executive Committee of the Serbian Municipality of

21     Prijedor, an organised take-over of power was embarked upon."

22             And it goes on to discuss the role of 400 policemen in carrying

23     out that take-over.

24             Now as this police report makes clear, this take-over by the SDS

25     in Prijedor was planned long before the telex was received on the

Page 45759

 1     29th of April; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  But that was not the only reason.  I mean, the

 3     Cazin Krajina.

 4        Q.   Now you talk in your statement about events in Hambarine in late

 5     May.  This is at paragraph 10 of your statement.  And you refer to the

 6     check-point incident in Hambarine.  And you said that the Prijedor

 7     Crisis Staff called for the Muslim extremists to hand over the bodies of

 8     the killed soldiers and those responsible for their killing, and called

 9     again the next day for the citizens of Hambarine to hand over the alleged

10     perpetrators of this incident.

11             Now, the truth is, Mr. Mandic, this call by the Crisis Staff was

12     in the form of an ultimatum, wasn't it?  In other words, the Crisis Staff

13     instructed the population of Hambarine to hand over the alleged

14     perpetrators and said that if the ultimatum was not obeyed, the

15     Crisis Staff was no longer willing or able to guarantee the safety of the

16     civilian population; right?

17        A.   Yes, that's how it was.  It was actually not an ultimatum because

18     a lot of time was left to them to think and to hand over the bodies or --

19     and the wounded and to hand over the extremists who were the perpetrators

20     of those crimes.  You know, killing a man is a big thing and it was said

21     clear and loud on Radio Prijedor that children and the elderly should

22     seek shelter because we were prepared to carry out an action that would

23     allow us to get hold of the bodies and those who committed the crime.

24     And it was not done on the day when the incident happened but on the

25     following day because those were not only Serb soldiers, they were JNA

Page 45760

 1     soldiers, but not only Serbs but also Croats who got killed.  So it was

 2     not an ethnic thing or a mono-ethnic thing on account of which somebody

 3     could say it was just Serbs trying to protect their own.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, I didn't ask you anything about ethnicity and my

 5     time is very limited, so I would like to ask you to focus very much on

 6     the precise question that I'm asking and limit your answer to the -- to

 7     that question.  You said in response to my question:  Yes, that's how it

 8     was.  But then you say that it was not an ultimatum.  You agreed, do you

 9     not, that the Crisis Staff told the population to hand over the alleged

10     perpetrators, and if not, the Crisis Staff was no longer willing or able

11     to guarantee the safety of the population.  Do you agree with that?

12        A.   Well, no, we asked those who did that to surrender.  We didn't

13     ask the population to surrender; that is to say, that those who committed

14     this crime were supposed to surrender.  There is Mirza Mujadzic there,

15     and it is well known who led the SDA and who did that.

16             [No interpretation]

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm not sure we got translation for the last part

18     of the answer.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your last sentence?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That the perpetrators, that is to

21     say the participants of this crime, be brought to justice, that they be

22     prosecuted for what they did.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have P3485, please.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic in the top right-hand corner of this page of

25     "Kozarski Vjesnik," there are a number of public statements of the

Page 45761

 1     Crisis Staff reproduced, and I would like to direct you to the very top

 2     right corner of this page which reproduces a Crisis Staff statement of

 3     the 23rd of May, 1992.  And at the very end, the last two paragraphs of

 4     this statement, says that the Crisis Staff orders the population of

 5     Hambarine and other local communes in the area to hand over the

 6     perpetrators of this crime - they were talking about the check-point

 7     incident - by the same day at noon.  And the last paragraph says:

 8             "This crime has exhausted all dead-lines and promises, and the

 9     Crisis Staff no longer can, nor is willing to, guarantee the safety of

10     the population of the above-mentioned villages in this area."

11             That was the message of the Prijedor Crisis Staff to the

12     population of Hambarine, wasn't it?

13        A.   If this is the original text provided by the Crisis Staff, that

14     means that everything had been exhausted and the Crisis Staff asked for

15     this to be brought to an end and that the perpetrators of this crime be

16     brought to justice.  So obviously the population sided with their heros

17     and they did not do a single thing in order to hand them over to the

18     authorities.  However, this same population had already fled from

19     Hambarine and they did not wait for the army or the police, only the

20     extremists.

21        Q.   And now you said that on the 23rd of May the police and the army

22     carried out an action in Hambarine, and by the evening the operation was

23     over.  You claim that there was strong resistance to this action by the

24     Muslim extremists.  In fact, the army suffered no casualties in this

25     operation, did it?

Page 45762

 1        A.   I don't know, believe me, who suffered casualties.  It didn't

 2     really reach me and I did not have this kind of information.

 3        Q.   Well, if we could stay on this document and go to the next page

 4     in the English and move down -- zoom out a little in the B/C/S and move

 5     down slightly.

 6             So that -- I'm looking now at the Crisis Staff statement of the

 7     24th of May, 1992, which you can see is in this inner box --

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Exactly, that's it.

 9        Q.   And this is a Crisis Staff statement from the following day, the

10     24th of May, and in the first paragraph, this is just under the line in

11     the English, at its morning session the Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff

12     discussed the situation in the municipality, and it says:

13             "Following yesterday's operations by the army directed as

14     disarming the Muslim paramilitary formations from the Hambarine local

15     commune, the situation had calmed down during the night.  The

16     Crisis Staff assessed that the operation has been successful.  The army

17     suffered no loss during the combat activities.  One member was wounded."

18             Now, a moment ago you said you didn't have this kind of

19     information.  Does this remind you that, in fact, the Crisis Staff did

20     the following day know that the army had suffered no casualties in the

21     Hambarine operation?

22        A.   I really cannot remember.  It's been over 20 years now.  Whether

23     there were any wounded or not, I cannot remember.  Maybe I didn't attend

24     the session, maybe.

25        Q.   Okay.  In your statement you describe this operation as -- as one

Page 45763

 1     that was undertaken to remove the check-point in Hambarine and locate the

 2     alleged perpetrators of the check-point incident.  The fact is,

 3     Mr. Mandic, that the entire village was shelled, wasn't it?  That was the

 4     army's response to this check-point incident, to shell the village.

 5        A.   I don't know.  I don't have that information.  I cannot remember

 6     that detail.  I did not take part in these attacks, so -- I mean, had I

 7     participated I would have known, but I did not participate and I don't

 8     know.

 9        Q.   How about the shelling of Kozarac for two days, do you remember

10     that?  A couple of days after Hambarine.

11        A.   Believe me, my work did not really have anything to do with the

12     police or the military.  Maybe.  I don't know.  If you find the text,

13     maybe it would be there.  I really don't know.  I didn't really deal with

14     that, so -- I mean, I was a member of the Crisis Staff, but I did not

15     follow what the army and the police were doing.  That is their own line

16     of work, so ...

17        Q.   Well, did you ever have occasion to travel the

18     Prijedor-Banja Luka main road from where you could actually see the

19     destruction of the houses in Kozarac?  Could you see those destroyed

20     houses?

21        A.   Not then.  I didn't travel at all.  Until these things happened,

22     perhaps I was in Banja Luka once or twice.  But when the operation was

23     over, I went to Banja Luka.  You know, there was no need for me to

24     travel.  You see, there was the president of the municipality and others

25     who were supposed to co-operate with the autonomous region of the

Page 45764

 1     Krajina.  There was no need for me to do that, so I did not travel

 2     therefore.

 3        Q.   Okay.  At paragraph 10, you state that Trnopolje was set up --

 4     was set up and that civilians were kept there for their own safety until

 5     a decision was made on whether they would leave or stay or until they

 6     obtained documents to go to third countries.  Now, the civilians in

 7     Trnopolje were not there by choice, were they?  They had been detained by

 8     the police and the army and they were held in Trnopolje as detainees;

 9     isn't that right?

10        A.   No, it's not right.  I think it would have been better for the

11     civilians to be in Trnopolje protected rather than in the street where

12     some fool in uniform could walk up and make trouble.  So they were free

13     to enter Trnopolje and leave Trnopolje.  In fact, they sought protection.

14     They wanted to spend the nights in Trnopolje and during the day they

15     would go home.  The aim was to protect them because I myself, as a Serb,

16     I was afraid.  I was afraid of people with weapons.  I wasn't afraid of

17     Muslims or Croats.  I was afraid of my own.  I'm referring to those who

18     were shooting at random, who were getting drunk and creating trouble in

19     Prijedor.

20             May I go on?

21        Q.   No, you've answered my question, Mr. Mandic.

22        A.   All right.  Thank you.

23        Q.   You said that the Muslims sought shelter in Trnopolje and you say

24     that the Serbs -- you, yourself, as a Serb was also afraid.  But there

25     were no Serbs seeking shelter in Trnopolje, were there?  It was just

Page 45765

 1     Muslims and Croats, wasn't it?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know whether there were any Serbs.  Believe me, I

 3     did not carry out any kind of triage and I don't have any information

 4     about that.  I'm just saying that I was afraid.  I as a Serb who lived

 5     and worked there.  I was afraid of people who were shooting at random,

 6     who were drunk, things like that.  Such a person would turn a rifle at me

 7     as well, not only a Muslim.  They would no longer know who was who.  And

 8     it's better for people to be protected rather than be left at the mercy

 9     of those who took advantage of the situation, killed people, and so on.

10     There was a war going on.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have P2915, please.

12        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this is a list of -- summarising conclusions adopted

13     by the Executive Committee and by the Crisis Staff.  The list of

14     conclusions adopted by the Crisis Staff begins about halfway down the

15     page and continues.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 3 in both languages.

17     Towards about two-thirds of the way down in the English and the second

18     full entry in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   It refers to a conclusion of the Crisis Staff of the

20     2nd of July, 1992, forbidding the individual release of persons from

21     Trnopolje, Omarska, and Keraterm.  Now, it's clear from the title of this

22     decision that the people in Trnopolje were detained there, isn't it?

23        A.   Yes, but that was temporary, I think.  Precisely so they would

24     not go back, because it was possible that there was this area where there

25     were moping-up operations against terrorists, and then perhaps there were

Page 45766

 1     land-mines left in some of these houses.  So I think that that was the

 2     idea, that they should not go home because they might get killed, not by

 3     the army or the police but those who were still there, who were not

 4     arrested, who had weapons, and also until people would see how these

 5     persons who had requested to leave could be safely transported to third

 6     countries because they had expressed a wish to do so.

 7        Q.   Now at paragraph 12, you speak about Omarska and you say that

 8     people who participated in combat or were captured with weapons were

 9     taken to Omarska where an investigation was conducted and criminal

10     responsibility was determined.  This is a claim you repeat again at

11     paragraph 20.

12             The truth is, Mr. Mandic, that Omarska was full of non-Serbs who

13     had had nothing to do with combat or weapons; right?

14        A.   Could you please show me that?  Which paragraph was it that you

15     said?

16        Q.   You said this twice in your statement at paragraph 12 and again

17     at paragraph 20.

18        A.   Yes.  Why was that done?  Obviously because in the field in

19     Omarska there were many inhabitants -- or, rather, those people who had

20     weapons.  But there were also those who did not have weapons.  If there

21     were few rifles, then there would be a second or a third person waiting

22     in line to take over that weapon.  I was not in Omarska until last year.

23     Simply, it was not my line of work, but I assume that they all had to go

24     through this triage -- or, rather, there were these organs who were

25     interrogating people, asking whether they had taken part in this

Page 45767

 1     armament, and now they were either released or transferred to the

 2     collection centre of Trnopolje.  I don't know.  I have not really

 3     followed this because I think that there were many people there in

 4     uniform, and even apart from that you had to carry out a triage.  You

 5     could not determine out in the field and say, You did shoot, you did not

 6     shoot.

 7        Q.   Well, the Prijedor SJB acknowledged officially that there were

 8     people in Omarska who "were not interesting from a security point of

 9     view, but who were captured because they found themselves in combat

10     zones," and people, "for whom there was no substantial proof that they

11     had participated in the armed rebellion in any manner whatsoever."

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's D470 at page 30.

13        Q.   Were you aware of this assessment by the Prijedor SJB, a body

14     largely responsible for detaining and processing these detainees?

15        A.   Well, yes, if that's what they wrote, then that's the way it was.

16     But I think there were non-Serbs -- or, rather, there were Serbs who were

17     there also, Igor Kondic, I know that myself.  How he happened to be

18     there, I don't know.  I did not carry out a triage.  I did not

19     interrogate anyone.

20        Q.   Now at paragraph 28 of your statement, Mr. Mandic, you comment on

21     some adjudicated facts regarding dismissals of non-Serbs, particularly

22     from leadership positions in Prijedor.  And you said that leaving a

23     position of authority depended on one's respect for the constitution and

24     laws and not on nationality.  If a person of any nationality was loyal to

25     the state, he or she would remain in position.

Page 45768

 1             The Crisis Staff, Mr. Mandic, of Prijedor issued an order

 2     requiring that certain posts considered to be important could only be

 3     held by ethnic Serbs, didn't it?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know which places they were, believe me; for

 5     example, what is important is the public security station and there were

 6     Muslims among the ranks of the police there.  Also, at the post office

 7     there were both Muslims and Serbs working there and Croats, too, and

 8     there were directors, that is to say, top people heading companies.  For

 9     example, GIK Mrakovica, I think that the gentleman's name was

10     Bilo Begovic, and he was the director there and nobody touched him

11     because he did not co-operate with the extremists and he was loyal, a

12     loyal citizen.

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, you didn't really answer my question.  You were

14     a member of the Crisis Staff in Prijedor.  The Crisis Staff issued an

15     order that only ethnic Serbs could hold certain posts that were

16     considered important.  Yes or no?

17        A.   Well, no.  I think that that is not the way it was.  I think that

18     they had to be loyal citizens according to the constitution.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P2740, please.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, you can see that this is a decision of the ARK

21     Crisis Staff of the 22nd of June, 1992.  And under point 1, you can see

22     that the decision requires that only personnel of Serbian ethnicity may

23     hold executive posts, posts where the information flow is possible and

24     posts involving the protection of socially owned property; that is, all

25     posts of importance for the functioning of economic entities.  And it

Page 45769

 1     states that this includes all socially owned enterprises, shareholding

 2     societies, state institutions, public enterprises, the MUP, and the army.

 3             Now, the Prijedor Crisis Staff received this decision and

 4     forwarded it for implementation; right?

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness start

 7     his answer again?  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, could you repeat your answer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that I didn't have to

10     accept that.  I mean, if they were loyal, the leading people who were

11     Muslims and Croats.  I mean, quite simply we did not resolve that problem

12     on the basis of the decision of the AR Krajina.  If this information

13     defines these enterprises that were important, then it must have been

14     that.  But when we assess that there was no need to replace people, then

15     we wouldn't do that.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 3 of this document.

17        Q.   So you recall receiving this decision, Mr. Mandic?

18        A.   Well, no, I did not have any contact with the AR Krajina.  We did

19     not receive individual decisions.  Or, rather, we as individuals did not

20     receive decisions.  It was the president of the municipality that did.

21        Q.   Okay.  And here on the third page of the document we can see the

22     president of the municipality, Dr. Stakic, forwarding this ARK

23     Crisis Staff decision for implementation - correct?  - the next day.

24        A.   I'm sorry, forwarding it to who?

25        Q.   Well, let's go to P2637.  I'll ask you a more specific question

Page 45770

 1     about its implementation.  As you can see, this is a Prijedor SJB

 2     document updated the 1st of July, 1992, to the Prijedor Crisis Staff, and

 3     it lists a number of conclusions that the SJB is implementing.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to the very last entry which

 5     is on the second page in both languages.

 6        Q.   It states:

 7             "The decision of the Banja Luka ARK Crisis Staff, number 03-531

 8     dated the 22nd of June, 1992," and I can tell you that that is the number

 9     and date of the ARK Crisis Staff decision we saw a moment ago, "on

10     staffing executive posts and other posts important to the functioning of

11     business establishments has been implemented in this SJB."

12             So, Mr. Mandic, the Prijedor Crisis Staff forwarded the ARK

13     Crisis Staff decision, at the very least, to the SJB, and the SJB here is

14     reporting back to the Crisis Staff of Prijedor that this has been done;

15     correct?

16        A.   Obviously that's the way it is, but who they replaced, how, what.

17     There were top personnel who also left their work-places and left and

18     those positions had to be filled too, but it doesn't say here who was

19     replaced.  They carried out this task, but -- in fact, this is a

20     statement that people were replaced, but who was replaced I don't know.

21        Q.   At paragraph 22 of your statement, you say that during the first

22     few months of the war you did not have contact with the authorities in

23     Pale and that you made all decisions independently.  Now, I'd like you to

24     specify, if you could, the time-frame during which you claim you had no

25     contact with the Pale authorities.

Page 45771

 1        A.   I personally did not have any contact whatsoever.  I think that

 2     it was up until the corridor was created to Bijeljina.  Until then, we

 3     did not have the possibility of receiving certain orders and instructions

 4     as to how we should behave in such complex moments.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So from the beginning of the war until the corridor was

 6     created, which the evidence shows was at the very end of June 1992, so I

 7     take it that your position is that during the month of May 1992 the

 8     Prijedor authorities had no contact with the Pale authorities; is that

 9     right?

10        A.   I really cannot give you an answer.  I simply don't remember

11     that.  I did not have any contacts, and therefore I cannot remember.  If

12     it can be seen somewhere that it did exist, if it was written that way,

13     then that's it, but I really cannot remember any of that.  And that is my

14     position because I did not go to Pale, I didn't go to Banja Luka.  Quite

15     simply, I'm the vice-president.  I could not convene sessions of the

16     Executive Board because according to the law I could not do that.  It was

17     only the deputy president that could convene sessions.

18        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, your sworn evidence in this case is quite

19     categorical.  You say:

20             "After the war began, during the first few months, we in Prijedor

21     did not have contact with the authorities in Pale.  We made all decisions

22     independently."

23             Now in your last answer it sounds like you're backtracking from

24     that.  You say:  I simply don't remember.  I did not have any contacts,

25     and therefore I cannot remember.  If it can be seen somewhere that it did

Page 45772

 1     exist, if it was written that way, then that's it, but I really cannot

 2     remember any of that.  So what's your evidence on this?  Is it what you

 3     say in your statement or is it that you just don't know and can't

 4     remember?

 5        A.   I don't think I had any contacts.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have P3919, please.

 7        Q.   Now you can see, Mr. Mandic, this is a decision on general public

 8     mobilisation of forces and resources in the republic, dated the

 9     20th of May, 1992, issued by the presidency of the RS and signed by

10     Dr. Karadzic.  Now, the Prijedor Crisis Staff received and implemented

11     this order; right?  Decision, sorry.

12        A.   Obviously, but I did not receive documents.  I can't remember.  I

13     apologise to the Court.  Documents did not reach me, so I never held this

14     in my hands.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P3537, please.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, this is a decision of the Prijedor Crisis Staff

17     and the preamble says:

18             "Pursuant to the decision of the Serbian Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina about the general public mobilisation of forces and

20     materiel in the republic, the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor municipality,

21     considering the current situation and conditions, at the meeting held on

22     the 22nd of May, 1992, reached this decision," and the decision on

23     mobilisation follows.

24             Now you -- when I showed you the presidency mobilisation decision

25     from two days previously, you said you didn't remember, Documents did not

Page 45773

 1     reach me.  I never held this in my hands.

 2             Do you remember now that the Prijedor Crisis Staff in fact

 3     discussed and implemented that presidency decision at its meeting on the

 4     22nd of May, 1992?

 5        A.   Obviously the decision was made, but I just simply didn't go

 6     anywhere and I didn't -- I don't remember what happened.  It's more than

 7     20 years ago.  Now I see that that is it.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P6589, please.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, these are the minutes of the

10     Prijedor Municipal Board of the SDS meeting held on the 18th of May,

11     1992, chaired by Mr. Miskovic, and you can see agenda item 2 is report

12     from the session of the Serbian Republic of BH Assembly.  And under

13     item 2 in the text it says that a report on the assembly session was

14     presented by President Miskovic, and then there are some notes saying

15     that there were 18 items on the agenda, main guidelines and future

16     activities were identified, commander of the army, supreme staff,

17     appointed, members of the presidency of the republic elected, et cetera.

18     And then it says that the assembly deputy, Svetozar Timarac, presented

19     additional information on this session.

20             Now do you recall this meeting at which Mr. Miskovic and

21     Mr. Timarac reported to the Prijedor SDS on the decisions and discussion

22     at the -- taken at the RS Assembly session from a few days prior to this,

23     on the 12th of May, 1992?

24        A.   No, no I can't remember.  There were many assembly sessions,

25     really.  Sessions of the Assembly of the Serbian Republic and

Page 45774

 1     Municipal Board sessions and Crisis Staff sessions, so that -- maybe that

 2     was a briefing, information that the commander was elected, the

 3     presidency of the republic was elected, but there were other things

 4     discussed, too.  This was just a briefing, information.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, you agree that you were present at this

 6     18th of May session of the Prijedor Municipal Board.  We can see you

 7     participating in the discussion in item 3.

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   But you have no recollection of any briefing of the 12th?

10        A.   This was a discussion concerning the SDS platform.  If there had

11     been any discussion in the previous paragraph, it would have been

12     indicated.  But it doesn't mention any discussion.  It ended when the

13     president of the party presented what he had to present.  Nobody

14     discussed these items on the agenda of the assembly.

15        Q.   Okay.  You agree you were present at this session.  And one of

16     the -- sorry, the 18th of May session.

17        A.   Yes, yes, certainly.  It says so here.  It's written.  But we

18     didn't discuss.

19        Q.   Now, one of the items that Mr. Miskovic included in his briefing

20     on the 12th of May are S Assembly session was the main guidelines in

21     future activities.  Now, that appears to be a reference to the strategic

22     objectives that Dr. Karadzic announced at the 12th May assembly session.

23     Do you remember Mr. Miskovic telling the Prijedor SDS about the strategic

24     objectives at this SDS session?

25        A.   Well, it's certainly that he spoke.  But what he said, I can't

Page 45775

 1     remember now.  He certainly touched upon some strategic objectives.  It's

 2     written in the platforms and he must have touched upon these items.

 3        Q.   Now, at paragraph 13 of your statement you say that the

 4     Prijedor Crisis Staff established regional staffs to register abandoned

 5     property and temporarily accommodated refugees in these properties.  Now,

 6     you're talking here in your statement about registering abandoned

 7     property.  In fact, in August of 1992 the Prijedor municipal authorities

 8     issued a decision that declared abandoned properties - properties of

 9     those who had left the municipality - to be state property; isn't that

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.  Because somebody had to protect that property.  The purpose

12     of regional staffs was to protect property to see which houses were

13     empty, to make a list of things, to keep -- put them in safe keeping, and

14     to provide accommodation for the 60.000 refugees that we already had by

15     that time in Prijedor and these people needed to be put up somewhere.

16     If -- there were people who liked to go around these houses and take

17     whatever they liked, some took off even entire roofs and somebody had to

18     protect these things.  Because all the property, all the apartments that

19     belonged to state-owned enterprises were not the property of the person

20     occupying the apartment.  It was still social property, public property.

21     It was not the property of an individual but the entire society.  That

22     was the law at the time in our country.  The only private property was if

23     somebody bought their apartment.  The rest was all socially owned.

24        Q.   Well, first of all, the decision didn't make any distinction

25     between socially owned property and private property.  It simply declared

Page 45776

 1     abandoned properties to be state properties; right?

 2        A.   Yes, state property, socially owned property, the same thing.  In

 3     order to protect it, not in order to re-sell it or to steal it but to

 4     protect it.

 5        Q.   Okay.  But the municipality didn't have to take over ownership of

 6     the properties in order to protect it, did they?  They could have simply

 7     registered the properties as you claim they did in your statement and

 8     allow people to temporarily -- allowed temporarily housing of other -- of

 9     refugees, et cetera, in those properties?  Declaring those properties to

10     be state properties wasn't required to protect them, was it?

11        A.   Well, I don't know now but I believe that was the legislation at

12     the time.  The laws required it.  I don't know, I'm not a lawyer.  I

13     suppose that the person who made this proposal was guided by the

14     legislation, but I don't know.  I cannot really go into these problems.

15     I'm not a lawyer.

16        Q.   And this process wasn't just about housing refugees.  You were

17     also appropriating business that had been owned previously by Muslims and

18     Croats and issuing them to Serbs for their use; correct?

19        A.   There were certain businesses.  But now, believe me, there was

20     one company, Hidrofleks, I believe, owned by a Croat, but he had made a

21     contract, an agreement with somebody in Prijedor, a contract on sale.  I

22     don't know exactly what happened.  I am not familiar with individual

23     cases, so I cannot say whether something was given to a Serb or not.  I

24     know about that one case, but apparently a contract on sale was involved.

25     I -- it was not up to me to investigate these things and to inquire.

Page 45777

 1        Q.   Okay.  So you're not aware of any other or any business that had

 2     been owned by Muslims or Croats where the municipality took over

 3     ownership and re-issued those businesses to others for their use?  You

 4     can't think of a single example?

 5        A.   I am giving you the example of Hidrofleks.  I'd like it if you

 6     could give me a list here and then I could say item by item.  As it is, I

 7     can't remember because I was not involved in politics for long at that

 8     time.  A year before that, I worked in Germany in a German company as the

 9     commercial director.  I was not interested in these things.  I'm not that

10     kind of person.  But if you had a list, we could go through the list and

11     say this was taken by that person, this was given to another person,

12     et cetera.

13        Q.   Just to be clear, Mr. Mandic, you can't think of a single example

14     of the -- of Prijedor municipality appropriating a business of a Muslim

15     or Croat who had left the municipality and giving it out to somebody

16     else?

17        A.   I just thought of one.  It's a catering establishment called

18     Cuko, owned by a Muslim, and it was taken over by Dusko Knezevic.  I

19     believe he was one of those accused here.  But you couldn't stop people

20     like him.  He didn't need anybody's permission.  He just took what he

21     wanted.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25827, please.

23        Q.   Now, this is a conclusion of the Prijedor Executive Board dated

24     the 14th of May, 1993.  At this point, Mr. Mandic, you were the president

25     of the Executive Board; correct?

Page 45778

 1        A.   No, I was vice-president of the Executive Board, but I remember

 2     the list.  The list is okay.  Now I remember.

 3        Q.   So at May 1993, Mr. Mandic, you were the president of the

 4     Executive Board, were you not?  In 1993.

 5        A.   Oh, I see, yes, this is 1993.  I thought you were talking about

 6     1992.  Yes, I was president of the Executive Board.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  If we could just quickly go to the second

 9     page.

10        Q.   I think you'll recognise your signature.

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   And this is a decision issued and signed by you; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go back to page 1.

16        Q.   It states that the -- with the aim of implementing the

17     Executive Board's conclusion of the 22nd of December, 1992, that the

18     immediate family members of soldiers killed in combat and disabled war

19     veterans be awarded 10 commercial premises, the following commercial

20     premises are being selected for that purpose.  And then there are a list

21     of ten premises and each one includes the name of the former owner.  So

22     the first one is a grocery formerly owned by Dzevad Mujanovic, and it

23     goes on.  Now all these ten people identified as former owners of these

24     business, these are all Muslims and Croats, right, non-Serbs?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 45779

 1        Q.   And these business -- you can see, sorry, in item 3 on page 2, it

 2     states that all the persons selected to be awarded these business are

 3     obliged to sign a commercial property lease contract with the Prijedor

 4     municipality.  Now, it's clear from this decision that these business

 5     were appropriated by the municipality and then awarded to family members

 6     of killed soldiers and disabled veterans who were then to enter into a

 7     lease contract with the municipality for their use; correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Now, a few moments ago you stated that you could not come up with

10     a single example of the Prijedor municipality appropriating the business

11     of a Muslim or Croat and giving it out to somebody else except for one

12     example where a catering example was taken over by a criminal,

13     Dusko Knezevic, and you said, "... but he didn't need anyone's

14     permission.  He just took what he wanted."  In fact, Mr. Mandic, the

15     Executive Board of the municipality was doing exactly the same thing as

16     Mr. Knezevic, appropriating business and giving them away -- of non-Serbs

17     and giving them away to Serbs; correct?

18        A.   Well, these things are not equal.  This was done by the

19     authorities and the other thing was done by an individual.  An individual

20     is not an authority.  This was legal.  It was legally decided that this

21     would become state property.  It was decided that this property would be

22     protected, and upon a request from the war veteran's association and the

23     families of those who were killed, we assigned these properties to them

24     to have them continue operating and to protect them.  Nobody had the

25     right.  Nobody could keep these business after the war.  The contracts

Page 45780

 1     would be terminated and the business returned, so this was legal.

 2     Whereas Dusko Knezevic was not in authorities.  He was not the state.  He

 3     could not do these things.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6606, Your Honours.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   Now, at paragraph 15, Mr. Mandic, you refer to crimes that you

 9     call crimes that were blamed on the Serbian people, and you say that:

10             "It is generally known that various individual murders happened

11     and that police organs and the prosecutor's office of Prijedor

12     municipality undertook various investigations and filed misdemeanor and

13     criminal reports against known or unknown perpetrators."

14             Now which individual murders, as you put it, of non-Serbs in 1992

15     are you aware of?

16        A.   I'll give you an example.  I believe it was the Rizvanovic

17     family, he was a car mechanic.  And I believe the other family's name is

18     Dosen.  He committed the murder by night.  I don't know exactly, but I

19     believe it was very -- I mean, fear pervaded Prijedor.  We all knew this

20     man by sight, and the moment he drank a bit he lost control completely

21     and then what happened happened.  I believe the police station carried

22     out an on-site investigation and identified the perpetrator.

23        Q.   Okay.  And who was the perpetrator of this incident, of this

24     murder?

25        A.   A person whose nickname was Djole.  Rumor had it it was him.  I

Page 45781

 1     did not have any documents to that effect.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And was this person whose -- with whom -- about whom you

 3     only know the nickname, was that person prosecuted by the

 4     Republika Srpska authorities at the time?

 5        A.   I don't know.  It was a matter for the prosecutor's office and

 6     the police, so --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for a clarification?  I'm

 8     not sure that the witness knows only the person's nickname.  I believe

 9     that he also mentioned his family name.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the man's family

11     name was Dosen.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   Any other cases of what you call individual murders that you are

14     specifically aware of of non-Serbs in 1992?

15        A.   Well, it was during war operations, during conflicts, during the

16     attack on Prijedor.  But I suppose all was documented and that the actors

17     are known and those were non-Serbs.

18        Q.   Okay.  So you just said -- you've only named one case of an

19     individual of a murder that you're aware of, you don't know if the

20     perpetrator was prosecuted, and now you say:

21             "I suppose all was documented and the actors are known ..."

22             So in your statement when you said police organs in the

23     prosecutor's office of the Prijedor municipality undertook various

24     investigations and filed misdemeanors and criminal reports against

25     perpetrators, what exactly is that based on if you can only name one

Page 45782

 1     murder incident and you don't even know if the perpetrator was

 2     prosecuted?

 3        A.   Well, I assumed that everybody did what they were supposed to do,

 4     that courts and the prosecutor's office did what they were supposed to

 5     and the police did the same.  One couldn't just turn a blind eye on

 6     events that happened because they did happen, and I suppose that they

 7     documented those things and that they caught the perpetrators.  There

 8     were talks about various people who had done things.  I didn't go to the

 9     police or to the court to ask whether they followed through or not and

10     who the perps were.

11        Q.   Okay.  You said one couldn't just turn a blind eye on events that

12     happened because they did happen.  Now, you were, in 1992, a member of

13     the Crisis Staff.  You were vice-president of the Executive Committee.

14     And in 1993 you were president of the Executive Committee.  Did either of

15     these organs, the Crisis Staff or Executive Committee, take any steps to

16     investigate or gather information about crimes against Muslims and Croats

17     in 1992 while you were members of those bodies?

18        A.   I believe so.  I think so.  I believe that what happened in

19     Keraterm resulted in the trial of the persons who were involved.  I'm

20     assuming that there are records of on-site investigations by the police.

21     I can only share with you my assumptions because I had never saw any

22     documents.  However, if they were doing their job, then they must have

23     documented those things and they must have arrested the perpetrators.

24        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Mandic, you may have misunderstood my question.  I'm

25     asking you about the bodies that you belonged to:  The Crisis Staff and

Page 45783

 1     the Executive Committee of Prijedor.  Did those bodies take any steps to

 2     gather information about the crimes committed against Muslims and Croats

 3     in 1992?

 4        A.   Well, the Executive Board was operational for the first ten days

 5     after the take-over, and then it was the Crisis Staff that took over.

 6     When the Crisis Staff was abolished, the Executive Board continued

 7     operating.  I believe that at a meeting we decided that we should

 8     investigate crimes committed against the Serb population in Prijedor

 9     municipality and that we were in communication with Minister Toholj, I

10     believe that that was his name, and Mr. Bolajic as well, who lived in

11     Belgrade and who was affiliated with the United Nations and worked on

12     crime investigation.  While I was the president of the Executive Board

13     there was that one attempt to investigate some of the crimes that were

14     committed against Serbs in Prijedor municipality.  And as for the rest, I

15     don't know.  We did not investigate anything during my term of office.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25829, please.

17        Q.   Now, in your last answer you talked about a decision taken by the

18     Executive Board to investigate crimes committed against the Serb

19     population, and you refer to communication with Minister Toholj in that

20     regard.  And here we see a letter authored by you to Mr. Toholj dated the

21     7th of May, 1993, stating that the Executive Committee of Prijedor

22     municipality had formed a municipal commission for gathering documents on

23     the genocide committed against the Serbian people in the territory of our

24     municipality.  And it goes on to talk about efforts to obtain

25     documentation and requests the minister to facilitate the commission's

Page 45784

 1     efforts to gather documents and information with the Ministry of Defence

 2     and minister of the interior.

 3             Now, this letter reflects the efforts you referred to a moment

 4     ago by the Prijedor Executive Board to investigate crimes against Serbs

 5     in Prijedor municipality; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor explain

10     whether the collection of documentation is tantamount to investigation,

11     or whether she considers it to be investigation?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Those were the witness's own words in the

13     previous long answer.

14             I tender this document and I have no further question.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.  We'll receive this.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6607, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, will you start your re-examination?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, since we have to

19     work tomorrow perhaps it would be best if I could start tomorrow.  We

20     have only five minutes left and if you want me to, I can make the most of

21     the five minutes that we have.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Tomorrow, but we'll begin with Mr. Beara's evidence,

23     as far as I understand it.

24             THE ACCUSED:  Yeah, I think it's better not to start because the

25     few times we'll be interrupted.

Page 45785

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So that means you have more than 10 or 15 minutes

 2     for your re-examination for this witness?

 3             THE ACCUSED:  But no more than 15.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I will consult my colleagues.  If you could conclude

 5     in 15 minutes, why don't we continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  I can --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just let me consult.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Given that we started earlier than usual for this

10     session, if the interpreters are fine with this arrangement, we'll

11     continue with their indulgence, but we'll see.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could you conclude by five to 3.00?  In 15 minutes.

14             THE ACCUSED:  I hope so.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED:  I hope so.  I think so.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mandic, in the document that is before us,

19     it says:  "Collection of documents."  On page 96, you were asked whether

20     the Crisis Staff, and later on the Executive Board, took any measures to

21     investigate crimes.  Could you please tell us whether a Crisis Staff or

22     an Executive Board have their own investigative bodies which are not the

23     regular investigation bodies?

24        A.   No, neither crisis staff nor an Executive Board have their own

25     investigating bodies.  There is the police, the court, and those are the

Page 45786

 1     bodies that belong to the powers of the state that have the authority to

 2     investigate.

 3        Q.   And what about the Crisis Staff or the Executive Board, did they

 4     have any authority over the judiciary or was the division of powers

 5     present and respected in Prijedor?

 6        A.   Everybody did their job.  The court did what it was supposed to,

 7     the police as well, so there was a division of powers between them.

 8        Q.   On page 95, you were asked why you remembered only one case of

 9     murder.  Could you tell us whether in the area outside of combat

10     activities, there were more killings of Serbs than others in general

11     terms?

12        A.   Yes.  I believe that there were, but I don't remember.

13        Q.   How many?  Could you remember?

14        A.   Well, not that many in that sense.  There were such cases but I

15     can't remember any details.  I remembered that particular case because I

16     live downtown and I remember that particular incident.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And on page 92 you were asked about the take-over of

18     property by the municipality.  Could you please tell us whether the

19     take-over of property means that the ownership is also taken over?  And

20     how many units of private property actually changed hands or changed the

21     ownership in an illegal way in Prijedor?

22        A.   It's very difficult to answer that question because people

23     entered houses and they did whatever they wanted.  However, things had to

24     be channeled.  And if somebody entered the house, it had to be known that

25     they live there, that they had to behave like good hosts, that they had

Page 45787

 1     to protect the property.  They were not supposed to live in one house for

 2     a while and then in another next, so commissions were set up to make

 3     stock of that property so as to allow the municipality to give the

 4     available property to refugees and displaced persons with the help of the

 5     commissions that were in charge of that.

 6        Q.   And what about property in war?  When somebody disposes or gets

 7     property at their disposal, do they also get ownership of that property?

 8     And how many pieces of property did the state take over as its property?

 9        A.   No, it didn't happen.  It never -- the state never registered as

10     the owner.  The ownership remained the same but the deeds were not

11     changed, is what I'm saying.  If Marko Markovic was the owner of a house

12     he was still the owner, but the state was the custodian of such property

13     because the owner -- the rightful owner was not there.  It was done in

14     order to protect property.  There were no books of empty properties where

15     such properties would be registered in the land books or in the registry

16     books.  There was a state of chaos -- or chaos prevailed and empty

17     property had to be protected.

18        Q.   If I receive an apartment from one company and then I leave that

19     company, whereas the apartment belongs to the company, whose -- in whose

20     ownership is it?

21        A.   The apartment remains in the -- is in the ownership of the

22     company, and if you leave the company you have to return the apartment.

23     That's the law.  By living in the apartment, you do not get property

24     rights.

25        Q.   Apart from these private businesses, we're talking now about

Page 45788

 1     socially owned companies, whose ownership is it, in fact, when we say

 2     "socially owned"?

 3        A.   It's owned by all the citizens, the society as a whole.  Nobody

 4     can say that they own the company.  That was the system in the

 5     former Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   You were asked about communications.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show D01832, briefly.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you stand by your assertion that communications were

10     compromised, that it was difficult to establish contact?

11        A.   Yes, certainly.

12        Q.   This is a member of the State Security Service, well known to us

13     by his code-name.  Can you read what is written in Serbian?

14        A.   Shall I read it?

15        Q.   Yes, aloud.

16        A.   "The situation is difficult.  Communications are broken down.  In

17     Prijedor, yesterday, a reservist policeman of Serb nationality was killed

18     from behind.  Immediately after, a relative of the dead policeman killed

19     four Muslims."

20        Q.   [No interpretation]

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter missed this entire question and

23     answer.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I asked:  How is this consistent with your experience from

Page 45789

 1     Prijedor from that time concerning communications, revenge, murders,

 2     et cetera?

 3        A.   I answered "yes."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  [Microphone not activated] On page 73, you were

 5     asked -- the question was -- I'll read in English:

 6             [In English] "As a result of the night between 29th and

 7     30th of April, 1992, following very detailed preparations and pursuant to

 8     the relevant decisions of the Executive Committee for the Serbian

 9     municipality of Prijedor, an organised take-over of power was embarked

10     upon."

11             [Interpretation] And then further on:

12             [In English] "And now as this police report makes clear, this

13     take-over by the SDS in Prijedor was planned long before the telex was

14     received ...," [Interpretation] and so on.

15             Your answer was:

16             [In English] "Yes, but that was not the only reason.  I mean the

17     Cazin Krajina."

18             [Interpretation] Can you tell us what were the other reasons?

19     What made the authorities carry out preparations for some contingency?

20        A.   I didn't understand if you cited the telegram by the minister of

21     the interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Delimustafic, which was the spark

22     that provoked this take-over of power?

23        Q.   You were asked about the take-over.  A passage was read out to

24     you from a MUP report saying that these preparations had been conducted

25     earlier and the telegram only speeded up the take-over.  According to the

Page 45790

 1     Law on All People's Defence and for practical reasons, do the authorities

 2     always make such contingency preparations?

 3        A.   This just provided a cause.  It was not only that Cazin Krajina

 4     you said --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Stop.  Stop.  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  He didn't get the answer he wanted the first time

 7     and now he's asking it again in an incredibly leading manner.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said he didn't

 9     understand.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I didn't understand.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It was because you didn't cite sufficiently for the

12     witness to understand what the question was.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because I'm in a hurry.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   But here, you were shown a police report saying that contingency

16     preparations had been made earlier, and you --

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, no.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   -- answered --

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The report doesn't say that contingency

21     preparations had been made.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The report says:

24             "Activities were launched to prepare for a take-over by force."

25             The report also mentions the Cazin Krajina -- it may assist the

Page 45791

 1     witness if Dr. Karadzic go -- if he wants to ask about that particular

 2     aspect to go to the report.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So the question and answer will be -- I will read

 4     those parts to you.  The question is this:

 5             "Now as this police report makes clear, this take-over by the SDS

 6     in Prijedor was planned long before the telex was received on the

 7     29th of April; correct?"

 8             And this is your answer:

 9             "Yes.  But that was not the only reason.  I mean, the

10     Cazin Krajina."

11             So then, Mr. Karadzic was asking what are the other reasons that

12     you had in mind?  Can you answer the question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The leadership of the

14     Serbian Democratic Party was involved in intensive negotiations with the

15     leadership of the SDA about a peaceful solution to all the interethnic

16     issues in Prijedor.  The Serbian Democratic Party was very committed to

17     finding a peaceful solution, keeping the peace, and it wanted the removal

18     of extremists among the SDA members, people who were already known in

19     Prijedor -- or better to call them notorious such as one Hadzija and one

20     man named Ecimovic and we had information that they were already

21     distributing arms around villages.  I live in a place that is close to a

22     Muslim village, so I could see with my own eyes how they were walking

23     about the hills.  So we had to protect the Serbian people, but not only

24     the Serbian people, the Muslim people as well because God forbid that

25     Muslims should have taken over power in Prijedor.  We had a very bad

Page 45792

 1     experience from the Second World War.  But under the previous system in

 2     which we lived, it was forbidden to talk about these things.  However,

 3     after Tito's death and the democratic changes, our people learned much

 4     more about who had done what and who was doing what.  So we tried in a

 5     peaceful way, and we, the Serbian people, I believe managed to save many,

 6     many more lives.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber doesn't want to obliged

 8     you to conclude your re-examination being pressed for time.  We'll

 9     continue tomorrow, if you so wish.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Better to continue tomorrow, then,

11     because we've lost some time in these misunderstandings.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, we'll continue tomorrow.  Unfortunately,

13     we are not able to finish your examination.  But tomorrow we'll begin

14     with Mr. Beara's cross-examination.  I don't know how much time it

15     will -- it will be necessary to conclude his evidence.  You'll be heard

16     after Mr. Beara's evidence is concluded.  Do you understand that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your kind understanding.

19             Please --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  -- do not discuss with anybody else about your

22     testimony while you are giving evidence.  Hearing is adjourned.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.58 p.m.,

Page 45793

 1                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd

 2                           day of January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.