Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 46039

 1                           Tuesday, 28 January 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.16 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             I noticed that Mr. Mladic is here as the next witness.  For the

 8     record, I note that the start of the proceedings for today has been

 9     delayed by 15 minutes, upon the request of counsel for Mr. Mladic.

10             Also, for the purpose of the record, I'd like the counsel for

11     Mr. Mladic to introduce himself.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

13             I'm Branko Lukic, and today I'm here on behalf of Mr. Mladic.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning to you, Mr. Lukic.  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Before we proceed with Mr. Mladic's testimony by way

17     of introduction and background, the Chamber briefly notes the following:

18             The accused in this case, Mr. Karadzic, filed a motion for

19     subpoena for Mr. Mladic on the 18th of April, 2013.  On the

20     5th of July, 2013, the Chamber informed the parties that it would

21     postpone the determination of this motion until such time as the

22     Appeals Chamber issued its decision on the Zdravko Tolimir's appeal of

23     this Chamber's decision compelling Tolimir to testify in this present

24     case.

25             On the 13th of November, 2013, the Appeals Chamber issued its

Page 46040

 1     decision with respect to the Tolimir appeal in which it denied Tolimir's

 2     appeal and held that the protection against self-incrimination afforded

 3     to the Tribunal's accused persons, pursuant to Article 21(4) of the

 4     Tribunal's Statute does not preclude the possibility of accused persons

 5     being compelled to testify in proceedings which do not involve the

 6     determination of the charges against them.

 7             On the 11th of December, 2013, the Chamber issued its decision on

 8     the subpoena motion, finding that the requirements for the issuance of a

 9     subpoena to Mladic had been met and that Mladic's submissions relating to

10     his ill health and his commitments to his own case did not rise to a

11     level that the Chamber should exercise its discretion against issuing the

12     subpoena.

13             On the 23rd of December, 2013, the Chamber denied Mladic's

14     request for certification for leave to appeal the decision to subpoena

15     Mladic and on the 22nd of January, 2014, denied the Prosecution and

16     Mladic motions for reconsideration of this certification decision.

17             Now I turn to Mr. Mladic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, for interrupting you.  I know

19     this is not usual.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I informed your staff that I would kindly ask

22     Your Honours to allow me just several minutes to address Your Honours

23     this morning before the testimony of Mr. Mladic.

24             JUDGE KWON:  By all means, Mr. Lukic, yes.  You have the floor.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 46041

 1             As Your Honour just read, we filed several motions to prevent

 2     Mr. Mladic from testifying, and this time I will just briefly try to add

 3     several new points and emphasise some of the most important topics.

 4             In our view, Mr. Mladic cannot and does not want to testify

 5     because of his poor health.  Upon the advice of ourselves as counsel, he

 6     hereby invokes his right not to testify, due to the unfair prejudice and

 7     harm that would be result from said testimony, not only to his health,

 8     but to the rights of afforded to him in his own case.

 9             We have been told by medical experts, among other things, that he

10     suffers from deception of memory.  This is a category of memory disorder,

11     meaning that someone cannot differentiate between the truth and fiction

12     because they are confident they speak the truth even if not doing so.

13     Because of gaps in their memory due to the damage caused by the stroke or

14     other injury, they make up facts to fill up the holes and believe these

15     facts are the truth.

16             We believe this renders Mr. Mladic unfit to testify as a witness.

17             In addition, two Defence medical experts and one of three experts

18     appointed by the Registry have concluded he is at risk of

19     transient ischemic attack if exposed to stress.  We believe this, too,

20     makes it inappropriate and harmful for him to be forced to testify.

21             We ask that Mr. Mladic be examined by a team of experts who would

22     determine his medical condition and if he were able to testify.  Due to

23     his poor health condition, Mr. Mladic is not able to read and analyse the

24     documents with his attorneys, which is necessary in order to prepare for

25     his testimony.  Moreover, he is not able to concentrate and analyse a

Page 46042

 1     single document.

 2             If we were able to -- if he were able to testify, he would

 3     testify in his own case, but because of his poor health, he cannot do

 4     that.  His indictment, as you know, is almost identical to the indictment

 5     of Mr. Karadzic.  His trial is still ongoing, and no one can force him to

 6     testify at his own trial.  Forcing him to testify in this case is the

 7     nullification of his right to remain silent.

 8             It is our humble position that, by this procedure, the Tribunal

 9     violates his basic human rights.

10             And, at the end, I just want to thank you once again for letting

11     me shortly express our views on this topic.

12             Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for your submission.

14             If the parties would make any observation with regard to the

15     submission of Mr. Lukic.

16             First, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

18             Mr. President, I believe that you have already ruled on all of

19     these issues that have now been placed before you.  And I would note that

20     Dr. Karadzic believes that General Mladic is the one person in the whole

21     world who knows best what happened during the war in Bosnia.  And this is

22     Dr. Karadzic's front line right here between the Prosecution and him.

23     And he is asking General Mladic to do his best to help him show the truth

24     of what happened during the war.  Because, for Dr. Karadzic, he's --

25     believes he's fighting not only for his own freedom but for the

Page 46043

 1     continuity and existence of the Republika Srpska.  And so he realises

 2     it's difficult for General Mladic, that General Mladic is not well, but

 3     he asks him to do his best and to give the best testimony he can give

 4     here today.

 5             Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you Mr. Robinson.

 7             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, let me begin by noting that in our

 9     submission, Mr. Robinson's position borders on, if not spills over into

10     an inappropriate pitch to a witness that would not in normal

11     circumstances be countenance.

12             I think the Court is aware of the Prosecutor's position on this

13     matter.  I think it was expressed fairly clearly in our motion for

14     reconsideration.  As Mr. Robinson has noted, these issues have been

15     submitted and ruled upon.

16             I leave it to the Chamber whether or not Mr. Lukic's submissions

17     add anything to the Court's analysis upon which its position earlier

18     rested, but we would otherwise have nothing to add to our earlier

19     submissions with which the Court is thoroughly familiar, I believe.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Lukic, the -- with respect to your points with

22     regard to alleged violation of Mr. Mladic's right, the Chamber is of the

23     view the issue has been sufficiently dealt with in our previous

24     decisions.

25             And with respect to the health issue, while the Chamber notes

Page 46044

 1     your submission, but finds that a further independent medical assessment

 2     is not required at this stage.

 3             In its decision granting the motion to subpoena Mr. Mladic and

 4     denying the motion for certification, the Chamber was satisfied that it

 5     had sufficient medical information before us in deciding that

 6     Mr. Mladic's health concerns didn't rise to a level that would warrant

 7     the Chamber exercising its discretion not to grant the subpoena.  And

 8     there's nothing to suggest that there have been new developments since

 9     then which would warrant a further medical assessment.

10             Therefore, we deny the request.

11             But the Chamber, of course, notes that it is amenable to

12     suggestions as to how to organise today's and tomorrow's sitting schedule

13     to address any health concerns Mr. Mladic may have.  And we deal with his

14     right as it rises, in particular, his rights pursuant to Rule 90(E) and

15     Article 21.

16             Now I turn to Mr. Mladic.

17             Mr. Mladic, would you kindly rise and make the solemn

18     declaration, please.

19             Mr. Mladic, do you hear me in the language you understand?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Mr. Kwon.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Will you make the solemn declaration.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, ladies and gentlemen, as

23     for this Hague Tribunal, this Court, I cannot stand it, and I do not

24     recognise it, and I cannot testify before it.  I cannot take an oath.

25     Because this is pressure against me as a person, against my health,

Page 46045

 1     against my people.  These continue to be sanctions, and things have

 2     really been brought to an end.

 3             I kindly request that you give me the following possibility.

 4     With all due respect to President Radovan Karadzic and the efforts that

 5     he made and has made for the salvation of our people, and I contributed

 6     somewhat to doing some good, I wouldn't want this trial to fail, so I

 7     would like to ask you, if you have the possibility and the time, to hear

 8     me out.  I wrote seven pages last night before Saint Sava's Day.  Today

 9     is Saint Sava's Day.  So if you don't mind, I would like to read that

10     out.  And after that, I can take an oath.

11             I do not recognise this Hague Court.  It is a NATO creation.  It

12     is a Satanic court, not a court of justice, and it is trying us because

13     we are Serbs, because we protect our people from you.  It --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mladic, I'm cutting you off.  Please be seated.

15             I will consult my colleagues.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mladic, as you know, we have our rules in which

18     our proceedings should proceed.  So I would recommend you, again, to take

19     the oath and answer the question, if you will, to the questions posed by

20     Mr. Karadzic.

21             We will not allow you to read out the documents.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I kindly ask that you allow me to

23     read out not a document but my statement that you will be interested in.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mladic, I must let you know that wilful refusal

25     to comply with the terms of subpoena may constitute contempt of the

Page 46046

 1     Tribunal which is punishable after the 1st of July, 2013, pursuant to

 2     Rule 90 of the Rules of Mechanisms for International Criminal Tribunals

 3     by a term of imprisonment not exceeding seven years, a fine not exceeding

 4     50.000 euros, or both.

 5             So I will ask you for the last time:  Will you take the solemn

 6     declaration, Mr. Mladic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, you are considerably

 8     younger than I am.  You are exerting pressure against me for no reason

 9     whatsoever.  I'm not afraid of anyone but God.  My conscience is clear

10     with regard to all matters.

11             Your subpoenas and your platitudes at the The Hague Tribunal and

12     your false indictments, I don't care one bit about any of that.  I don't

13     want to tire these people over there, and all of you.  I am going to make

14     this statement but I do not recognise your Court, The Hague Tribunal.  It

15     does not exist for me --

16             JUDGE KWON:  So I turn to you, Mr. Lukic.

17             It's clear that Mr. Mladic is refusing to testify.

18             MR. LUKIC:  He is waiting now to --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I am going to testify.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please proceed.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't be nervous, Mr. Kwon.  You're

22     from Korea.  Bells of alarm are ringing there too.

23             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

24     and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  RATKO MLADIC

Page 46047

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And could the security people

 3     please bring my teeth from the cell so that I could speak better.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the Registry will take care of it.

 5             Do you like to have a short adjournment?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Apparently seems okay, but it -- I will turn to you

10     as well, Mr. Lukic.

11             And, Mr. Mladic, if it is not possible for you to speak without

12     denture, we'll rise for some time.  Because I was told that you left your

13     denture at the Detention Unit.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So you like to testify when denture arrives?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes.  Because I haven't

17     got any teeth now.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the Chamber is of the view it's better for rise

20     for 15 or 20 minutes in order to understand him better.

21             We'll have a break for 20 minutes and resume at 10.00.

22                            --- Break taken at 9.40 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.26 a.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I now turn to you, Mr. Mladic.

25             Before you commence your evidence, I'm --

Page 46048

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving interpretation.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Do you hear me now?  Just -- if the usher could

 3     assist the witness hearing --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's fine.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Now do you hear me well?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, Mr. Kwon.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I will repeat.

10             Before you commence your evidence I must draw your attention to a

11     certain rule of evidence that we have here at the Tribunal; that is,

12     Rule 90(E).  As you may know well, under this rule you may object to

13     answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from

14     the Judges, if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a

15     criminal offence.

16             In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might

17     amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence, or saying

18     something that might provide evidence that you might have committed a

19     criminal offence.

20             However, should you think that your answer might incriminate you

21     and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you

22     know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the

23     question.  But, in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your

24     testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in any

25     case that might be laid against you for any offence, save and except the

Page 46049

 1     offence of giving false testimony.

 2             I take it that you understand that, Mr. Mladic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Comrade Kwon.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

 7     morning to everyone.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General, sir.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   General, sir, you wanted to say something to the Chamber and the

12     parties to the proceedings.  I do not want to deprive you of that

13     opportunity.  Can I invite you to state what you wanted to say now as

14     part of your testimony after you have given an oath.

15        A.   Mr. President --

16             JUDGE KWON:  I will have a word with my colleagues as to --

17     whether to allow it.  Please be seated for the moment.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  As you know well, Mr. Karadzic, this is not an

20     examination in direct --

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this -- this form of a -- allowing the witness

23     to speak at his liberty is not conducive to finding the truth as we ruled

24     in your mode of testimony earlier on.  We'll not allow you to ask the

25     witness to read out his statement.

Page 46050

 1             Please proceed with your examination-in-chief.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have now received a

 3     correction in the interpretation because, first, I was told that you

 4     would allow it, but I now hear you will not allow it.  Very well.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   General, sir, I hope that you will have an opportunity to say

 7     what you wanted to say on cross-examination or in response to my

 8     questions.

 9             Can you tell us what were the positions you held during your

10     military career in the briefest of terms?

11        A.   Mr. President, Honourable Judges, I'm 71.  I held numerous

12     positions throughout my career, from 1965, when I became an officer,

13     until I was arrested by this Court.

14             In response to your question, I can say that I believe that this

15     Court holds records with the exact dates of my various terms of service.

16     I can say that in peacetime, I served in Macedonia, in Skopje, in

17     Kumanovo as battalion commander; as -- in Ohrid as regiment commander; in

18     Stip as the commander of the 39th Infantry Brigade; and on two occasions

19     I served at the command of the 3rd Army, that's to say the

20     3rd Military District in the operations department.  There are records to

21     that effect and I can't recall reliably the dates.

22             In response to your question, with all due respect, I would like

23     to say the following:  I cannot and do not wish to testify here because

24     of my health.  And I would like to state, upon the advice of my Defence

25     counsel, that I reserve my right not to testify, and I reject -- or I

Page 46051

 1     refuse to testify for the reasons that my health may be impaired and as a

 2     result of my rights.

 3             Mr. President, since Mr. Kwon refused to allow me to read this, I

 4     wish to say that I wrote my statement on seven pages.  I think it would

 5     be interesting.  I don't know if the Court will accept this or not, but I

 6     would like the opportunity to read this out aloud for the benefit of the

 7     audience, the general public, and you, and for the sake of the people.

 8     I'm not defending myself.  You're not defending yourself.  We continue to

 9     defend our people.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mladic, I'm cutting you off.  You are supposed

11     to answer the question posed by Mr. Karadzic.

12             Mr. Karadzic, please proceed with your next question.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   General, sir, did you ever inform me either orally or in writing

16     that the prisoners from Srebrenica would be, were being, or had been

17     executed?

18        A.   Mr. President, Radovan, I cannot and do not wish to testify for

19     the reasons of my health.  And upon the advice of my Defence counsel, I

20     wish to state that I reserve my right not to testify and I refuse to

21     testify because it may impair my health and because of my rights as an

22     accused in my case.  And I have touched upon the events that you are

23     asking me about in this statement that I have written.  However,

24     Judge Kwon will not allow me to read it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mladic, I'm cutting you off here again.

Page 46052

 1             Mr. Lukic, I take it Mr. Mladic is invoking his right pursuant to

 2     Rule 90(E).

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, you are right.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I will consult my colleagues.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  To maybe cut things short - I'm sorry - he will do

 6     this after every single question.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Exercising its discretion, the Chamber has decided

 9     not to compel the witness to answer this question, despite the protection

10     afforded by Rule 90(E), in light of his right against self-incrimination

11     as an accused whose trial is pending before the Tribunal.

12             I ask the accused to proceed with his next question.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   General, sir, the two of us, did we ever come to an agreement or

16     have agreement or understanding that the citizens of Sarajevo would be

17     subjected to terror by shelling and sniping -- or sniping?

18        A.   Mr. President, I cannot and will not testify for the reasons of

19     my health.  Upon the advice of my Defence counsel, I wish to state that I

20     reserve my right not to testify and that I refuse to testify because it

21     may impair my health and prejudice my rights as an accused in my own

22     case.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mladic, do you intend to refuse to answer every

24     questions that are supposed to be put by Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I will give the same answer

Page 46053

 1     to every question.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you wish to put each and every

 3     question you suggested?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.  There's three

 5     more questions.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  For the same reason, the Chamber will not compel the

 8     witness to answer this question.

 9             Mr. Karadzic, please proceed with your next question.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, sir, what were the reasons for the shelling or sniping

13     by our army against Sarajevo?

14        A.   Mr. President, I cannot and do not wish to testify for the

15     reasons of my health.  Upon the advice of Defence counsel, I wish to

16     state that I reserve my right not to testify and refuse to testify

17     because it may impair my health and prejudice my rights as an accused in

18     my own case.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  For the same reason, the Chamber will not compel the

21     witness to answer the question.

22             Yes, proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   The fifth question, in that case, is moot so there's only one

Page 46054

 1     more question left.

 2             General, sir, amongst the two of us, or the leadership in

 3     general, was there an agreement or an understanding to expel the Muslims

 4     and Croats residing in the Serb-controlled areas?

 5        A.   Mr. President, I cannot and do not wish to testify for the

 6     reasons of my health.  Upon the advice of my Defence counsel, I wish to

 7     state that I reserve my right not to testify and that I refuse to testify

 8     because it may impair my health and prejudice my rights as an accused in

 9     my own case.

10             If allowed, I may read out what I wrote down here.  It may prove

11     interesting.  And I suggest that I read this out.  It's only seven pages.

12     It's not much.  And I kindly request the Court to accommodate my request.

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Mladic.

14             Mr. Karadzic, do you have further questions?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellencies.  I only wish to

18     say that I don't know the contents of this statement, and despite all the

19     risks, I wanted Mr. Mladic to be allowed to read this out.  Of course, it

20     is up to the Chamber to rule on this matter.

21             At this point I have no further questions.

22             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  For the record, we would ask

24     that the statement be received and marked for identification so that

25     there can be some record of what General Mladic wished to say in the

Page 46055

 1     event that the issue of the Chamber's failure to compel him is raised at

 2     a later date.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see a basis upon which the Chamber should

 4     receive his statement.

 5             Speaking for myself, I have no difficulty with the Defence

 6     receiving his statement on their own and consider what to do with it

 7     later on.  But I'm not minded to receive on the part of the Chamber.

 8             Mr. Tieger, do you have any cross-examination?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then that concludes your evidence,

11     Mr. Mladic.  Thank you for coming to the courtroom.  You may be excused.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for preventing me from

13     stating what I wanted to say.  And you have confirmed my thesis that

14     The Hague Tribunal is not a court of a law but a Satanic court.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I cut you off, Mr. Mladic.

16             My thanks also go to Mr. Lukic.  And I take this opportunity to

17     express the Chamber's thanks to the transportation team from the Dutch

18     police for their hard work and for their dedicated co-operation.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise before we proceed with the next witness.

21     But I have a couple of matters to deal with before that.

22             Mr. Lukic, you may be excused as well.  Thank you again.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  First, the Chamber notes it remains seized of the

25     accused's motion for the transfer, temporary transfer of detained

Page 46056

 1     witnesses Dusan Jankovic and Mitar Rasevic in which the accused submits

 2     that he had sought to obtain verification from the Bosnian government

 3     that the requirements of Rule 90 bis (B) are met with respect to both

 4     Jankovic and Rasevic but had not received the response from -- from the

 5     government.

 6             On 12th of December last year, the Chamber issued an invitation

 7     to the government of BiH to co-operate directly with the accused by

 8     providing the relevant information.

 9             On the 7th of January, 2014, on the basis of correspondence

10     received in the interim, the accused wrote to the government of BiH

11     requesting further information regarding Jankovic.  Since that date, no

12     further information has been filed on the record.

13             So -- so, Mr. Robinson, could you please advise the Chamber of

14     the current status of this motion in relation to Mr. Jankovic as well as

15     Mr. Rasevic.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

17             With respect to Mr. Rasevic, he is no longer in the custody of

18     the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina and he will come voluntarily,

19     so we withdraw our request for a transfer order with him.

20             With respect to Mr. Jankovic, we asked the Court to issue an

21     order to transfer him on the dates that we've requested even though we

22     have not had a definitive response from the government.  When we wrote to

23     them on the 7th of January, we received no response but it's clear from

24     the public records in Mr. Jankovic's case that he has served -- has been

25     sentenced to 21 years in prison.  The sentence is final.  And so,

Page 46057

 1     therefore, there are no court proceedings scheduled in his case, nor

 2     would his testimony in this trial here in 2014 delay his release from

 3     that 21-year sentence.  We can't do anything more to get the Bosnian

 4     government to provide the information.  As you know, they normally don't

 5     answer us directly but usually require invitations from the Chamber and

 6     we -- after they corresponded with us to verify the date of birth of the

 7     individual back in the 7th of January, we've heard nothing from them.

 8     And we don't believe that a transfer would be timely unless the Chamber

 9     issues an order at this time for the transfer.  If they have any

10     information, they can object to that order.  They've already been served

11     with the original motion, so they're well aware of our request and have

12     never filed any objection so far.

13             JUDGE KWON:  However, the Chamber notes that Rule, in particular

14     Rule 90 bis (B), requires prior verification that the condition set

15     therein have been, indeed, met.  So can I hear from you, Mr. Tieger,

16     whether the -- as Mr. Robinson argues in his submission, that this

17     absence of objection by the government of BiH would be sufficient for the

18     purpose of Rule 90 bis (B).

19             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, it would not seem so on its face as

20     the Court has impliedly noted.  However, I'm prepared to meet with

21     Mr. Robinson and evaluate the entire backdrop to the exchange to see if,

22     under these particular circumstances, some implicit acknowledgment can be

23     gleaned from the information provided.

24             But beyond that, I think the Court's point seems to be well taken

25     on the face of the Rule.

Page 46058

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider this issue.  But in the

 2     meantime, I would like you to continue to get the verification from the

 3     government.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise for 20 minutes and resume at ten past

 6     11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           --- On resuming at 11 .16 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  DRASKO VUJIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Vujic.  Please be seated and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Vujic, I must draw your

18     attention to a certain rule that we have here at the international

19     Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to

20     answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from

21     the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a

22     criminal offence.

23             In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that may

24     amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying

25     something that might provide evidence that you might have committed a

Page 46059

 1     criminal offence.  However, should you think that an answer might

 2     incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I

 3     must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer

 4     the question.  But, in this situation, the Tribunal would ensure that

 5     your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in

 6     any case that might be laid against you for any offence save and except

 7     the offence of giving false testimony.

 8             Do you understand that, Mr. Vujic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

12                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vujic.

14        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Let me just ask you to leave a short pause between questions and

16     answers and to speak slowly so that everything can be recorded properly.

17     Have you given a statement to my Defence team?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show in e-court 1D49061.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On the left-hand side of the screen, can you see the Serbian

23     version of that statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

Page 46060

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Is this your signature?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did this statement faithfully reflect everything

 7     you've said to my Defence team?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put to you the same questions today,

10     would your answers be essentially the same as in the statement?

11        A.   Yes, they would.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

14     Rule 92 ter.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Mr. Zec?

16             MR. ZEC:  Good morning.  No objection.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4242, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I will read in English a short

21     summary of Mr. Vujic's statement and then I will have a few questions for

22     him concerning one document and tender that document as well.

23             [In English] Drasko Vujic was mobilised in late 1991 and sent as

24     a member of the 5th Battalion of the 343 JNA Brigade to Slavonia, where

25     he stayed for 45 days.  After that, he went back to Prijedor, and when

Page 46061

 1     the crisis in Prijedor broke out, he started forming a unit from the

 2     Urije area (Prijedor 2) local community.

 3             In 1995, he became a member of the SDS and then he became

 4     vice-president of the Municipal Board and an assemblyman in the municipal

 5     assembly for one term.

 6             The unit formed by Mr. Vujic had about 900 to 1200 men, mostly

 7     people over the age of 50, many of whom were non-Serbs who joined the

 8     unit voluntarily.  The unit was engaged in the zone of a small and big

 9     road underpass where Prijedor-Centar is separated from Prijedor 2, with

10     the task of patrolling to prevent the movement of unknown people, tension

11     or any incidents.

12             In the morning of 30th of May, 1992, Muslim armed units attacked

13     Mr. Vujic's soldiers from a park located between the two underpasses and

14     from a nearby firm.  One of the soldiers was killed in the attack, while

15     the others reacted to the surprise and put up resistance.  During the

16     clash, the Muslims fired at an ambulance car that was on his -- its --

17     his way to town and seriously wounded the driver.  After one hour of

18     fighting, the Muslim units were pushed back and withdrew towards the

19     River Sana.  This was the last major attack by the Muslim units in the

20     recruitment zone of Prijedor 2.

21             During the fighting, one enemy soldier was captured.  He wore a

22     camouflage uniform with a green headband, a Cherokee hair-style, and the

23     Islamic markings of the moon, star and lily.  After revealing that

24     Prijedor was attacked by several armed groups from different directions,

25     the prisoner was escorted to the garrison and handed over to the security

Page 46062

 1     organs.  After this episode, the battalion did not take part in combat

 2     operations until September 1992, when most of the battalion was sent to

 3     the Gradacac front line, while a small part received the task of mopping

 4     out Mount Kurevo, where Muslim units were based.  One of the soldiers who

 5     took part in the fighting at Kurevo was wounded while one other died.

 6             Mr. Vujic was informed by courier about the rebellion of the

 7     prisoners at Keraterm but his unit did not take part in the incidents.

 8     During the summer of 1992, the battalion's patrols were present in the

 9     vicinity of the mosque in Puharska, when the mosque was destroyed in an

10     explosion.  Mr. Vujic personally helped the people who had been injured,

11     among whom there was a Muslim man who was put in Mr. Vujic's car and

12     taken to the hospital, where he received medical treatment.  The soldiers

13     who were on patrol were severely shocked and some suffered hearing

14     damage.  Mr. Vujic did everything he could to reassure the residents of

15     Puharska and to prevent any further attempts at disturbing them.

16             In the summer of 1992, units were sent to search Puharska on the

17     basis of information that many Muslims who were seeking refuge there were

18     suspected of having taken part in the clashes in Kozarac and Hambarine.

19     The Muslim population supported the operation in security, as they were

20     aware that the presence of extremists was a potential threat for them.

21     About 30 men were singled out and transported to Omarska.  The other

22     residents remained in their own homes.

23             In 1992, various Serbian paramilitary units roamed around

24     Prijedor municipality, causing great problems to both the Muslim and the

25     Serbian population.  Mr. Vujic personally arrested a number of these

Page 46063

 1     Suva Rebra unit, one of the paramilitary formations active in the

 2     Prijedor area.  The paramilitary soldier was disarmed, tied up, and later

 3     escorted to the prison in Gradiska.

 4             There were several cases when Mr. Vujic co-operated with the

 5     Muslim population, helped them, and protected them.  The official

 6     authorities in Prijedor did not forcibly deport the Muslim population,

 7     nor did they have the intention of destroying the Muslim population as a

 8     group, wholly, or partially.

 9             And now I would have one question for Mr. Vujic within the chief

10     examination.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Vujic, in paragraph 1 of your statement, you say that in your

13     battalion, you had between 900 and 1200 men, mostly people over 50.  In

14     our language, we would call them the third category of draftees; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You also say that you had a lot of people of other ethnicities,

17     Muslim, Croats, Roma, and Ukrainians; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D49062 is the document I would now

20     like to show the witness.  Sorry, I meant 061 -- no, no.  062 is okay.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Vujic, can you tell us what this list is and who made it?

23        A.   I made this list, preparing for giving evidence today, from the

24     records that I have in my possession about the engagement of soldiers.  I

25     singled out the names of people who were non-Serbs and who were members

Page 46064

 1     of my unit.

 2        Q.   Could you read out aloud the first two lines?  I mean the title.

 3        A.   List of people of non-Serb ethnicity who are members of the

 4     3rd Motorised Battalion.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Here on page 1 we see 41 names.  Were all these

 6     people non-Serbs, mainly Muslims, Croats, and Ukrainians; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   On this page, we see numbers from 42 to 86.  Are they also all

11     Croats, Muslims, Ukrainians, Protestants?  Which ethnicities and

12     religions are represented here?

13        A.   Yes.  This is the second page of the list.  There are Muslims,

14     Croats, Roma, and Ukrainians mostly.

15        Q.   We have a column indicating year of birth.  And what is the last

16     column?

17        A.   That's the length of service in the unit for each individual.

18        Q.   So the last date is in 1996 when the unit ceased to exist.

19        A.   Some were members of the unit from the first day to the last;

20     some left the unit due to various circumstances; some were wounded; some

21     were killed, unfortunately; and others were mobilised for shorter terms

22     and served for a certain period in the unit.

23        Q.   Where were these people from and where did their families hail

24     from?

25        A.   They lived in areas of replenishment of this unit, which means

Page 46065

 1     Cirkin Polje, Urije, Puharska, Orlovaca, Orlovci and Garevci, although

 2     some people were from other local communities in the Prijedor

 3     municipality.

 4        Q.   Their families and civilians, where did they live and how were

 5     they treated by the authorities of Prijedor municipality?

 6        A.   Their families lived in their homes.  They continued to work,

 7     those who had jobs.  Those who were farmers continued to be farmers.

 8     They were not intimidated or mistreated in any way.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered this document.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, this document has one

12     more page.  I believe the final number was 133.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Pages 3 and 4.

15        A.   Yes, this is the end of the list.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec, do you have any objections?

17             MR. ZEC:  No, Mr.  President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark this for identification.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4243, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And you have no further questions?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I have no further questions in

22     direct examination, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             Mr. Vujic, as you have noted, your evidence in-chief in this case

25     has been admitted, in its most part in writing; that is, through your

Page 46066

 1     written statement in lieu of your oral testimony.

 2             Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor.

 4             Yes, Mr. Zec.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

 7        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vujic.

 8             You told us in your statement that you were member of the

 9     343rd Prijedor Motorised Brigade.  You were in Croatia in 1991.  You

10     returned to Prijedor and work on military matters.

11             While working on the military matters, Mr. Vujic, you attended

12     meetings with SDS officials; right?

13        A.   Officially I did not attend a single meeting of the SDS at that

14     time.

15        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence regarding -- regarding a

16     document called Variant A and B.  Simo Miskovic testified here that

17     Variant B was implemented in Prijedor; transcript page 45374.  The

18     A-and-B document envisaged two stages of preparation.  The first stage

19     was related to introducing around-the-clock duties, Crisis Staffs,

20     Serbian Assemblies, methods related to Territorial Defence, and the like.

21             Do you remember, Mr. Vujic, attending a meeting during which

22     these issues were discussed?

23        A.   No, I wasn't there.

24             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 10937B.  This is a record of a

25     meeting with Prijedor regional representatives regarding military

Page 46067

 1     matters.  It is undated but we know from the SDS Municipal Board book of

 2     minutes from where this was taken that it is from December 1991.  65

 3     ter -- yes.

 4        Q.   You will have it now in front of you, sir -- on the screen in

 5     front of you.

 6             It starts by noting that 18 members were present.

 7             "Simo Miskovic, president of the Prijedor SDS Municipal Board,

 8     opened the meeting with a presentation of the instruction which had come

 9     from the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

10             It notes that the establishment of a Crisis Staff and the defence

11     secretariat were the purpose of this meeting.

12             There are ten items listed, some of which I already mentioned.

13     Below number ten it says:

14             "The above represents the first stage of preparations ..."

15             Do you remember attending this meeting, Mr. Vujic?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. ZEC:  Can we turn to second-last page in English and last

18     page in B/C/S.

19        Q.   If you look towards the bottom of the page, Mr. Vujic, we see

20     name Drasko Vujic saying that this was too big job to be accomplished

21     with such a tight schedule.

22             So you were present at this meeting; right?

23        A.   I don't remember attending this meeting.

24             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

25             JUDGE KWON:  We didn't hear you, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 46068

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And what is your objection about?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not a meeting of the SDS,

 4     and this does not concern papers A and B.  This is about the

 5     recommendation of the -- the Assembly of the Serbian People of

 6     10 December.  So it's not a SDS meeting.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec went through from the first page and then

 8     witness was able to read the document, so I don't see any problem with

 9     it.

10             So whether he remember having attended this meeting, and he

11     answered in the negative.

12             Shall we continue?

13             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I would tender this document.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  There's no foundation for it through this witness,

15     Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand.  No foundation?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  The witness isn't able to speak to anything about

18     what happened at this meeting.  He isn't able to recognise it as an

19     accurate record or reliable account of what took place.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I -- I don't think Defence is challenging the

21     authenticity of this document, are you?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, in the sense that we don't know where it

23     came from.  We have no information about the authenticity.  But,

24     nevertheless, it may be authentic and it may be admissible through

25     another witness but not through this witness.

Page 46069

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Witness is referred to in this document as having

 2     made an intervention.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that's correct Mr. President.  But I don't

 4     believe that makes it admissible, simply because a witness is referred to

 5     in a document.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             Do you like to add anything Mr. Zec?

 8             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, as you already noted, the document is

 9     authentic.  It's relevant.  It's only question whether the witness

10     remember being there.  But there's -- otherwise, there is no -- any

11     obstacle of you admitting it.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you intend to put further questions with respect

14     to this document to the witness?

15             MR. ZEC:  No, Mr.  President.  This simply was impeachment point,

16     about the witness being in the area of [indiscernible] on military

17     matters, as he confirms in his statement.  But the only point is that he

18     was at this meeting with SDS, which he denied.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think your assistance, Mr. Tieger, just be

20     seated.

21             Let me take a look.

22             How do we know this is a SDS meeting, Mr. Zec?

23             MR. ZEC:  Mr. Simo Miskovic presided the meeting, and there is a

24     reference in the document that he is the president of the Main Board.  So

25     it was SDS officials, so that's -- and another point, it comes from the

Page 46070

 1     book of the SDS Main Board book of minutes.  This is only excerpt.  So in

 2     that --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Title of this document reads:  Meeting of the

 4     representatives of Prijedor municipality.

 5             MR. ZEC:  And I refer to this book of minutes of the SDS

 6     Main Board with -- which reflects meetings of the SDS.  Now whether --

 7     what -- they referring to what officials, that's -- I agree not

 8     absolutely clear.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  With respect to his attendance in a meeting with

11     some SDS members, I -- the Chamber is of the view we have a basis to

12     admit it.

13             We'll receive it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6610, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZEC:

16        Q.   In paragraph 6 of your statement, you talk about your proposal to

17     the Muslim TO to hand over their weapons before the clashes and searches,

18     and you say some complied.

19             Mr. Vujic, this Chamber has received evidence that all the

20     weapons and ammunition belonging to the Territorial Defence units had to

21     be stored in the JNA depots even before the period you talk about.  It's

22     P3201.

23             And, in fact, Mr. Vujic, the weapons that belonged to the TO

24     units in Prijedor were placed under the command of the 343rd Brigade;

25     right?

Page 46071

 1        A.   No, that's not right.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 05029.

 3        Q.   Can you confirm that 343rd Brigade was renamed to 43rd Brigade

 4     after the VRS 1st Krajina Corps was established?

 5        A.   The exact date of reformulating the name of the brigade is

 6     something I'm not aware of.  I know that on the 21st of May there was

 7     general mobilisation.  After that, the brigade was renamed.  From the

 8     343rd Brigade Motorised Brigade, it was renamed the 43rd Brigade.

 9             Would you allow me to clarify something in relation to that first

10     question.  I expected you to ask me why that was not so.

11        Q.   Mr. Vujic, I will -- we will go through.

12             If you now look on the screen, you will see article from

13     "Kozarski Vjesnik."  In the second paragraph in English and second page

14     in the B/C/S, first column, Radmilo Zeljaja says:

15             "Our command with the approval of the corps managed to get

16     together both the weapons and technical equipment from the

17     Territorial Defence units of the municipalities:  Prijedor, Sanski Most,

18     Novi Grad, Kozarska Dubica, as well as Cazinska Krajina region and place

19     them under our control in our depots."

20             So, Mr. Vujic, 343rd Brigade took control of the TO weapons;

21     right?

22        A.   At the time that we were talking about a moment ago, that is to

23     say, the time before the attack on Prijedor, and before Puharska, weapons

24     had not been handed over, all weapons, rather, had not been handed over

25     by the reserve Territorial Defence and the reserve police.  And it was

Page 46072

 1     not placed under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2             MR. ZEC:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we -- he has read out the portion

 4     that contradicts the witness's testimony and we think that that would be

 5     enough.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Following our practice, I tend to agree with

 7     Mr. Robinson.  But do you like to add anything?

 8             MR. ZEC:  I'll move on.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MR. ZEC:

11        Q.   In paragraph 7, in paragraph 7 of your statement, you say that

12     your battalion did not take part in combat operations until

13     September 1992 when you went to Gradacac except for mopping up at Kurevo

14     mountain.  Are you saying, Mr. Vujic, that the unit -- that until

15     September the battalion did not participate in combat activities at front

16     lines involving -- involving two unarmed forces?

17        A.   Yes.  But took part in the fighting at Mount Kurevo.

18        Q.   And the battalion, in fact, was involved in the take-over of the

19     power in Prijedor; right?

20        A.   The battalion did not have any function in relation to the

21     take-over of power in Prijedor.

22             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25839.

23        Q.   This is a article from a bulletin of the 43rd Brigade.  It says

24     in the middle of the page:

25             "Commander of this battalion, Drasko Vujic, a man who was among

Page 46073

 1     the first who felt the fascist vibration of the centuries' old enemies

 2     said:  The people of Podkozarje know very well how it feels to suffer the

 3     war atrocities and the fascist evil deeds.  That is why we had to avoid

 4     the fate of our grandfathers.  We had to be ready for when they come.

 5     The old mistakes had to be avoided."

 6             When you say, Mr. Vujic, "we had to be ready," you were referring

 7     to the preparations in late 1991 that we talked about; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You also say:

10             "That period of activity of a battalion that was still not

11     official on the paper only was characterised by the participation in the

12     taking over of the government from the Muslims."

13             Mr. Vujic, you acknowledged here your participation in the

14     take-over of the power in Prijedor which took place in late April 1992;

15     right?

16        A.   On that day, when power was taken over, the battalion did not

17     move its units in any way.  Except since the preparations for the

18     take-over of government were rather secret, it was only the night before

19     that that I found out there would be a take-over.  And my superior

20     command issued me an order - orally, truth to tell - that the units

21     should be prepared at its positions and no order was issued to move the

22     units from these positions.  That is why I say that the units had already

23     been organised in part and ready to prevent any kind of surprise that

24     would not work in favour of the citizens of Prijedor.

25        Q.   But you were clear here in -- in this article.  You said

Page 46074

 1     "participation in the taking over of the government."

 2             You participated.  Didn't you?

 3        A.   I'm going to repeat it once again for you.

 4             The battalion did not have any order and there was no move on the

 5     part of units at any level.  That is to say, it did not take part in the

 6     take-over of power.  For me take-over of power -- or, rather,

 7     participation in take-over of power means, to my mind, to go directly and

 8     carry out certain tasks in the territory of the municipality of Prijedor

 9     in the territory of the town itself.  And in this case, that did not

10     happen.

11        Q.   And you go on and say:

12             "The defence" --

13             JUDGE KWON:  First of all, could you confirm with the witness

14     whether that's what witness said in the interview?

15             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I also thought that's clear in the

16     interview, but he is explaining in a bit different way so I thought I

17     should [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             JUDGE KWON:  Where does that inverted comma end?

19             MR. ZEC:  As I understand in the article, it says -- from the

20     point when it says, "The command of the brigade said," and there's a

21     column, I -- it's my opinion that's all he's -- what he was saying to the

22     journalist.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm having said so, Mr. Vujic?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember this statement of

25     mine given to the journalist as a whole.  As a matter of fact, I don't

Page 46075

 1     even remember giving any kind of statement to a journalist at the time.

 2     However, this is certainly beautification of the situation on the part of

 3     the journalist.  That's for sure.  And an attempt is being made to leave

 4     the impression that there was more power than there actually was, in

 5     terms of take-over.  I told you a moment ago what the status of my unit

 6     was.  What the tasks were, and how we carried them out, that is correct.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Zec.

 8             MR. ZEC:

 9        Q.   You go on and say:

10             "The defence of Prijedor from the Muslim fundamentalists" --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Where do we see it?

12             MR. ZEC:  It's on the same portion.  It should be middle of the

13     page.

14        Q.   "The defence of Prijedor from the Muslim fundamentalists, the

15     participation in the struggle for the liberation of Kozarac."

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see that passage?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not see that.  I have the page

18     in front of me, but I cannot find my way.

19             MR. ZEC:  In B/C/S, it's on -- in the column to the left towards

20     the bottom.  Should be the last paragraph in the B/C/S.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So now we move to the next page

22     in [overlapping speakers]

23             MR. ZEC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... in the English, correct.  My

24     apologies.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 46076

 1             MR. ZEC:  "The participation in the struggle for the liberation

 2     of Kozarac."

 3             And:

 4             "Punishment of the Hambarine residents who were the first to

 5     spill the blood of the Serb young men."

 6             Mr. Vujic, the spilling blood reference relates to the incident

 7     of 22nd May, 1992, at the check-point in Hambarine when two Serb soldiers

 8     got killed and several wounded; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And "punishment of the Hambarine residents" relates to the Serb

11     attack at Hambarine during which the entire area was razed to the ground

12     with many killed and expelled non-Serbs; right?

13        A.   What is meant here is the punishment of perpetrators of crimes

14     that were committed on that day in Hambarine.

15             MR. ZEC:  I tender this document -- this article, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6611, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZEC:

19        Q.   These military operations in Prijedor, Mr. Vujic, took the form

20     of targeting Muslims and Croats by attacking and destroying their towns

21     and places of residence and detaining men; right?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  Just one objection.

23             In respect of the previous document, and also in the question of

24     Mr. Zec, it is being suggested that it was the inhabitants of Hambarine

25     that were punished, and that is not what the original says.  It says --

Page 46077

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Vujic answered that point, I think.

 2             Let's continue.

 3             MR. ZEC:

 4        Q.   Mr. Vujic, do I have to repeat my last question or you can -- you

 5     can answer?

 6        A.   Please repeat it.

 7        Q.   The military operations in Prijedor took the form of targeting

 8     Muslims and Croats by attacking and destroying the towns and places of

 9     residence and detaining many; correct?

10        A.   The objective of the military operation was not to destroy the

11     civilian population or to destroy facilities, property.  Rather, to

12     respond through combat to the participation of those who opened fire and

13     killed Serb soldiers.

14        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence regarding the mopping-up

15     operations in Prijedor that the resistance of Croat and Muslim formations

16     was weak followed by mass surrender; that conscripts of Muslim

17     nationality asked to be released from the units for the reasons of

18     massive destruction of their towns; and that the ARK SDS leaders publicly

19     advocated moving and expelling Muslims and Croats.  P3662, P3911.

20             These reasons, Mr. Vujic, caused non-Serbs to fear for their

21     lives and leave; right?

22        A.   That is not right.  Because the Muslims and Croats had left at

23     their own initiative, considerably earlier.  They left all units.  Very

24     few of them stayed on.  So I have a few examples from that time as to how

25     those few who had stayed on reacted, and those who responded to the

Page 46078

 1     call-up to obstruct the JNA and not respond to mobilisation were the main

 2     perpetrators of these unfortunate events.

 3        Q.   And, at the same time, Serb officials praised members of the

 4     43rd Brigade for their achievements in Prijedor; that's correct?

 5        A.   I don't know in which way they praised them.

 6        Q.   Well, let's have a look.

 7             MR. ZEC:  65 ter 10951.

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Vujic, this Chamber also received evidence regarding the

 9     commendation of the units engaged in Prijedor, including, Hambarine and

10     Kozarac, by the command of the 1st Krajina Corps saying that they set an

11     example how one should act while defending Serb republic; P3656.  Now if

12     you look at the screen in front of you there is an article from

13     "Kozarski Vjesnik" about the celebration of -- or the Vidovda in Prijedor

14     barracks.  Among present were members of the 43rd Brigade and 5th Kozara

15     Brigade, their commanders and other officials.

16             At page 2 in English and to the right side in B/C/S, there are

17     text of telegrams sent from Ratko Mladic and Momir Talic.  At page 3 in

18     English, and in the box in the middle of the B/C/S page, it says:

19             "The soldiers and superiors of the 43rd Prijedor

20     Motorised Brigade were very happy to hear the news that the president of

21     the state and Supreme Commander, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, has awarded the

22     brigade with the Nemanjic medal for heroic acts in the armed struggle and

23     setting a positive example for acts achieved so far."

24             President also awarded Colonel Arsic.

25             Mr. Vujic, so the fact is that the units involved in Prijedor

Page 46079

 1     operations were praised by the highest military and political leadership

 2     of Republika Srpska; right?

 3        A.   This document shows that the unit was commended and that its

 4     commander was promoted.  However, the commendation does not refer to

 5     fighting where there was no resistance.  This was fighting where there

 6     was strong resistance.  And how.  Serb soldiers were being killed.  There

 7     were casualties on both side.  And unfortunately, this was a merciless

 8     war.  It is for that reason that the unit managed to fulfil its task and,

 9     of course, since this is Saint Vitus's Day, it is the time when certain

10     analyses are carried out and commendations are provided to those who

11     contributed to the accomplishment of the mission.

12             MR. ZEC:  I tender this article.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr.  President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6612, Your Honours.

16             MR. ZEC:

17        Q.   You talk -- you talk in your statement about the mosque in

18     Donja Puharska and the way it was destroyed.  You say that the explosion

19     was strong which you heard from your home about 1 kilometre away.

20             Mr. Vujic, the mosque was completely destroyed in this explosion;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In order to destroy a building this way, one would need a lot of

24     explosive and preparation; right?

25        A.   I assume so.

Page 46080

 1        Q.   Despite all the preparation one would need to take, you say that

 2     the patrolling units who were there patrolling round the mosque did not

 3     see anything at any point of time; right?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence that dozens of other religious

 6     facilities in Prijedor were destroyed the way this mosque was destroyed.

 7     And you know this was happening in Prijedor with respect to other

 8     non-Serb religious facilities; right?

 9        A.   I heard of some later, and I heard of some immediately after the

10     events involved.

11        Q.   You say in paragraph 11 that after the mosque in Donja Puharska

12     was blown up, you assured the citizens that you would prevent further

13     disturbing after there was no major incidents.

14             In fact, Mr. Vujic, several days after the mosque was blown up,

15     Djordje Dosen came to Puharska and took Fadil Dizdarevic away.  His body

16     was subsequently found in the Sana river; right?

17        A.   I'm not aware of that.

18             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25837.  This is -- this is -- will

19     be a file containing a statement of Rasim Dzafic and several -- several

20     photographs.  We need e-court page 4 in both languages.

21        Q.   "Dzafic" --

22             THE ACCUSED:  Could we see the first page, please.

23             MR. ZEC:

24        Q.   "Dzafic said" --

25             THE ACCUSED:  To whom it was given [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 46081

 1             MR. ZEC:

 2        Q.   "Several days" --

 3             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I think --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Can you not see it on your own with your e-court?

 5             THE ACCUSED:  No.  No, not me.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could Registrar approach the bench.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that you should be able to see it on your

 9     own, with your e-court.

10             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, Excellency, if I give up the transcript.  But

11     what is now shown, I can't.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, you can see it while listening to the --

13     to the witnesses and trial attorneys.  You can go into your e-court

14     briefly, if necessary.  I think the -- that can be done without --

15     without prejudicing your following the proceedings.

16             Yes, we'll continue.

17             MR. ZEC:

18        Q.   Dzafic said:

19             "Several days later, our neighbour Fadil Dizdarevic, came to

20     repair the hodza's house."

21             And then he continues:

22             "The criminal, Djordje Dosen, also known as Djole, found him

23     there.  He said he took him to the car and drove off."

24             And then he said:

25             "A day or two later, Fadil's body was found in the Sana river.

Page 46082

 1     His chest was riddled with bullets."

 2             So, Mr. Vujic, the fact is that non-Serbs were continuing to be

 3     targeted after the mosque was blown up; right?

 4        A.   You skipped something here that has to do with the destruction of

 5     the mosque and my efforts after that.  But I know that a certain

 6     Djordje Dosen, nicknamed Djole, was a person who created problems both

 7     for the Serb and the Muslim population.  He was not a member of my unit,

 8     and this is the first I hear of this, as of many other cases, many other

 9     things that were done by Djole, and are mentioned during this trial, not

10     only today but generally speaking, and that's how I found out what Djole

11     was doing and where he was.

12        Q.   And we will come back to Djole in a moment.  But let's see next

13     page in English.

14             In the -- in the last paragraph, Dzafic says that:

15             "In the course of the same evening, the Prijedor Catholic church

16     was destroyed."

17             Mr. Vujic, did you hear this second explosion when the Catholic

18     church was blown up, after the mosque was blown up?

19        A.   Yes, I heard it.  It came about several minutes after the first

20     explosion.

21             MR. ZEC:  Let's see next page in both languages.

22        Q.   This is the mosque in Donja Puharska before it was blown up;

23     right?

24        A.   As far as I remember, yes.

25             MR. ZEC:  Can we have next page in both languages.

Page 46083

 1        Q.   And this is after it was blown up; right?

 2        A.   Possibly.

 3             MR. ZEC:  Can we now turn the page after the next one in both

 4     languages.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise this as remains of the mosque in Donja Puharska?

 6        A.   I cannot claim with certainty that this is exactly what I saw

 7     that day.  What is possible is that this is what the mosque looked like,

 8     that most of it was destroyed.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Can we see photographs -- after next one again, sorry.

10        Q.   This is public -- public utility company from Prijedor called

11     4 July clearing the remains of the mosque.  Do you know when this was?

12     1992 perhaps?

13        A.   I don't know when this happened.

14             MR. ZEC:  Can we see next photographs in the both -- both

15     languages.

16        Q.   So this is the house of Rasim Dzafic after the explosion; right?

17        A.   I should think so, yes.

18             MR. ZEC:  Next page.

19        Q.   This is the house of Zekerijah Kusuran; right?

20        A.   Yes, I believe so.

21             MR. ZEC:  Can we have next page.

22        Q.   Do you recognise this house as described below the photograph?

23        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell whose house this is on the basis of

24     the photograph.  I can read in the caption that is Muhamed Mirsirlic's

25     house.  It stood exactly across from the mosque and I know that it was

Page 46084

 1     damaged.  And, in fact, the way I see this photograph, it does look like

 2     the house that was in the previous photograph.

 3             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I tender photographs only.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we hear about the provenance of

 5     the photograph, when it was made and by whom?  It says September 1992,

 6     but where does it come from?  Is this part of some investigation

 7     documentation?

 8             MR. ZEC:  I refer Mr. Karadzic to the last page of the statement

 9     in B/C/S.  The witness says who took the photographs.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You can tell the accused.  I think it's -- it's a

11     fair question.

12             MR. ZEC:  Then we -- can we have last page of the statement that

13     we looked.  It should be page 4.  Page 4 in -- in e-court.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, now we can see it.

15             MR. ZEC:  In English, it's last page of the statement.  And the

16     witness says that this was recorded by Mirvan Besic, son of Dzemal, who

17     is currently in the United States.  So that's the provenance.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             Mr. Robinson, you have no objections to -- to -- to the admission

20     of photographs only.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.  I think given the

22     witness's comments about them that it's admissible.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit them.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6613, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Zec.

Page 46085

 1             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.  Let's go back to Djordje Dosen, also known

 2     as Djole, that we talked about.

 3        Q.   He was a member of the Serb forces in Prijedor; right?

 4        A.   Djoko Dosen was a member of the 343rd Brigade for several months

 5     only in the very beginning.  Later on, he was not a member of the brigade

 6     anymore, and this was, in part, due to a decision that I made.

 7             Since I knew Dosen from before the war, I came across him when he

 8     was a member of a unit in Slavonia.  He was frightened out of his wits

 9     because of the war.  He was in shell shock.  He was completely unusable,

10     as it were.  As I came to Prijedor, I learnt that Djoko Dosen had a

11     smaller unit under his command.  The unit executed his orders and tasks.

12     What I didn't know was where these tasks had come from.  My conclusion

13     was that he was doing everything on his own initiative, and this proved

14     to be true.  Because, at one point, the brigade commander tasked me with

15     taking over the command over the mobilised soldiers on the basis of the

16     territorial principle, including the local commune of Orlovaca, where

17     Djoko came from, Orlovci and Garevci.  As a result, my first contact was

18     with Djoko when he responded to my call-up.  He came to the headquarters

19     and I told him there that, pursuant to the commander's orders, he was

20     resubordinated to the then-17th [as interpreted] Battalion.  I also ask

21     asked him to provide me with a list of troops and inventory of the

22     weapons at his disposal as soon as possible.  He refused to do so there

23     and then.  He told me that he would not comply with my order.

24             My immediate response was this:  For as long as I'm in command of

25     this unit, you, Djoko, will not be in it, not even as a private, let

Page 46086

 1     alone any officer.

 2             He found it an impossible situation.

 3             Several days later, I went to Orlovaca.  This was the place where

 4     he was active, and he was a native of Orlovaca, and I mean Djoko Dosen,

 5     and it was through a great deal of effort that I managed to put together

 6     an official unit and appointed a commanding officer.  I said that I had a

 7     hard time doing it.  I had to investigate a great deal of effort because

 8     I was met with the resistance on the part of Djoko Dosen and his men.

 9     Still, it all ended well.

10        Q.   And then are you saying from that point that Djole was

11     subordinated to the units?

12        A.   From that point on, Djole was no longer subordinated to the unit.

13     He wasn't even listed as a member of my unit.  He didn't receive any sort

14     of tasks from me.  Even if he had received tasks from me, he would not

15     have received them or carried them through.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 46, line 20.  It's not much --

19     it's not of much importance.  But for the sake of accuracy, it's not the

20     "17th Battalion," but the "7th Battalion."

21             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree, Mr. Vujic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the 7th Battalion.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MR. ZEC:  And --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

Page 46087

 1             MR. ZEC:

 2        Q.   And, in fact, Mr. Vujic, this Chamber has received evidence that

 3     by July 1992, 1st Krajina Corps intelligence and security organ reported

 4     that all the groups, these self-acting groups that you are referring to,

 5     that all of them were -- they became part of the 343rd Motorised Brigade

 6     and were carrying tasks in organised fashion.  So, in fact, all these

 7     groups, such as Djole, they were under the command of the brigade.

 8             MR. ZEC:  And this is, Your Honours, P25494.

 9        Q.   So that, in fact, was the situation; right?

10        A.   This was not about the unit.  This was only about Djole.  Other

11     members of his unit were resubordinated at a later stage and were

12     exemplary soldiers.  I only spoke about my dealings with Djoko who was

13     not under anyone's command and whatever he did was at his own initiative.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said:  And they were

17     exemplary soldiers.  And this wasn't -- oh, it is now in the transcript.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke about Djoko only, whereas

19     you use the plural:  All those other paramilitaries.  And we didn't

20     mention any others.  Not yet.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall we take a break now?

22             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll break for 45 minutes and resume at

24     quarter past 1.00.

25                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

Page 46088

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec, please continue.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Vujic, talking about 1995, you know that the unit under

 6     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, also known as Tigers, were deployed to

 7     Prijedor, Banja Luka, Sanski Most area in 1995.  You know this; right?

 8        A.   In certain segments I was aware of Arkan's unit which was present

 9     in Prijedor.

10        Q.   And do you know, as this Chamber knows, that Arkan's unit

11     committed crimes in Bosnia in 1992; right?

12        A.   I'm not familiar with the activities of this unit in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was only toward the end of the war in 1995 that I

14     had direct dealings with elements of that unit.

15        Q.   Did you know that in 1995 that Arkan's unit committed crimes

16     against remaining non-Serbs, as this Chamber knows; P3056.

17             Did you know that, in 1995?

18        A.   Which area is that in reference to?

19        Q.   Krajina area:  Prijedor, Sanski Most, Banja Luka.

20        A.   My activity were always outside of the municipality of Prijedor.

21     I didn't have any contact with Arkan and his members, so I'm not familiar

22     with their participation or deeds.

23        Q.   With respect to Prijedor, do you know that the remaining

24     non-Serbs were expelled from Prijedor, including, Dr. Ibro Beglerbegovic,

25     who you referred to in paragraph 15.  Do you know -- did you know that?

Page 46089

 1        A.   No, I didn't know when Ibro Beglerbegovic left or whatever

 2     happened with him.  When it comes to Prijedor, save for 1992 when I knew

 3     that he was in his home, and when, on one occasion, and I mentioned this

 4     in my statement, I was in a position to help him.

 5        Q.   And it's already in your statement.  But going back to Arkan's

 6     unit, your battalion conducted joint operations with police and Arkan's

 7     unit in 1995; correct?

 8        A.   That was the time when, for the first time, I had certain

 9     contacts with Arkan's unit.

10        Q.   So they were in your area of responsibility.  You were fighting

11     with them, together; right?

12        A.   This was not my area of responsibility.  By happenstance, it was

13     dictated by the fighting.  My unit happened to be in the defence area of

14     Ostra Luka and Sanski Most, and that was where I found some of Arkan's

15     soldiers.

16             Prior to that point, what I knew of Arkan in Prijedor was in a

17     very ugly context, involving my soldiers.  Those who happened to be

18     resting at some point were arrested by Arkan's soldiers, and their heads

19     were clean-shaven.  And outside of my approval, they were transferred --

20        Q.   So then perhaps did you arrest Arkan's soldiers?  Did you arrest

21     Arkan for not only committing crimes but also disturbing your soldiers?

22     Did you do that?

23        A.   You didn't allow me to finish my sentence.  And I was just about

24     to say that, at the point when I wanted to do, so I was prevented from

25     doing so.  I was in a different battle-field.  Why is it that you're not

Page 46090

 1     interested in hearing me out?  Why don't you let me finish?  Two or three

 2     sentences more won't do any harm.

 3             I said that I was in a battle-field.  I said that my soldiers who

 4     were resting were taken against their will to a different battle-field by

 5     Arkan and their heads were clean-shaven, and I was some [as interpreted]

 6     kilometres away from the area, and I was not in a position to do anything

 7     in relation to these actions by Arkan, and I never met up in person with

 8     Arkan.

 9        Q.   So --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 6, the witness said, "200

13     to 300 kilometres away," not "some."

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

17             Let's continue.

18             MR. ZEC:

19        Q.   Since you didn't take any action against Arkan's Men, did you

20     also know, as this Chamber knows, that it was Mr. Karadzic who sent them

21     there into your area of responsibility?  Did you know that?  It's P3056.

22        A.   I didn't know that.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vujic.

24             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Zec.

Page 46091

 1             Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Excellencies.

 3             Can the witness be shown P2494.  It was already cited.  P494 --

 4     or, rather, 549.  There was an error in the transcript at the time.  Yes,

 5     that's the document for which the Prosecutor said that it was proof of

 6     the fact that this was Dosen's group.  Can we have page 2, please.  Page

 7     2, please.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 2 from the bottom where it says,

10     "active in the area of Prijedor were ...,"  can you tell us which were

11     the groups identified in this document?

12        A.   In the area of Prijedor, there were several active self-styled

13     groups, such as Macko's [phoen] group from the village of Micevici

14     [phoen], I believe, led by Stojan Vracar; then Zolje's group led by

15     Sljevcevic [phoen], aka Zolje; and Ciga's group led by Radanovic.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Next page for the English.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 in English.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Yes, please go ahead.

20        A.   Should I start from the beginning?

21        Q.   No need.

22        A.   Aka Cigo from Omarska.  As general mobilisation was carried out,

23     these groups came under the 343rd Motorised Brigade and implemented their

24     tasks in an organised fashion.  In the area of Bosanski Novi there was

25     the group of bandits called Suva Rebra.

Page 46092

 1        Q.   Can you tell us is this consistent with your knowledge of these

 2     various groups, and, secondly, is there any mention of Dosen's group

 3     here?

 4        A.   I am aware of the existence of all these groups and their

 5     commanding officers.  From what I can tell, there is no mention of Dosen

 6     here.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  The Suva Rebra group is that the one you mention in

 8     paragraph 14 of your statement, a member of which you arrested?

 9        A.   There was only one group active in our area and it was called

10     Suva Rebra.  It hailed from the area of Novi Grad, what was then

11     Bosanski Novi.

12        Q.   Thank you.  At page 41, the Prosecutor said that there was a

13     patrol -- a group -- that your group, actually, patrolled around the

14     mosque.  Was it indeed the case that it patrolled around the mosque and

15     what was its patrolling area?  How large was it?

16        A.   That's what I wanted to explain, that we didn't participate in

17     these events at all.  This area has a small river, Puharska, running

18     across it, and on one bank of that river, that was where the mosque was

19     situated.  My patrols consisted of two members, senior members of an

20     advanced age, and they were moving on the left-hand side in relation to

21     the mosque.  When the explosion took place, they were some 50 metres away

22     from the mosque, that's to say away from the explosion site.  As a

23     result, one of them was injured, although both of them were under shock

24     and both were knocked to the ground as a result of the explosion.

25        Q.   Did I understand this correctly, that outside of your patrolling

Page 46093

 1     area and outside of the area where there was the mosque, a small river

 2     ran?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   At page 32, it was suggested that the weapons held by the

 5     Territorial Defence were relocated to the JNA barracks.

 6             Do you know how successfully this measure was, indeed,

 7     implemented?  Or to what extent it was not successful, in terms of having

 8     all those who were authorised to have weapon, such as companies, TO

 9     depots, et cetera, to have them turn the weapons over?

10        A.   All those who had weapons kept them.  In the various companies,

11     they did not get organised into units but they did at the level of the

12     local commune.  One such TO unit which consisted mainly of Muslims,

13     talking about Puharska, kept the entire weaponry of the TO.  A reserve

14     police force was attached to them under that same principle.  As a

15     result, I decided that in that area - that is to say, Puharska - I should

16     not be deploying my units.  I believed that their presence would be a

17     source of irritation for the local population residing in the area, and I

18     was apprehensive of the fact that we may even cause a conflict there.

19             My intention was to try and reach an agreement in order to disarm

20     these units which, at that point, were, in fact, paramilitary, to avert

21     any fighting and harm coming to the civilian population.  I was partly

22     successful in that, because there were some individuals there who

23     understood what my intentions were and supported them, so they

24     implemented this idea in part.  The only request on their part was that

25     no lists should be drawn up of the individuals surrendering weapons.

Page 46094

 1             I asked them to go through the disarming process themselves

 2     because I was afraid that my presence there and the presence of my

 3     soldiers there would have negative effect.  Seven or eight individuals

 4     were actively participating in this process of partial disarming, and I

 5     emphasise partial because Puharska had close to 5.000 inhabitants.  All

 6     the weapons that they agreed to surrendering in this way could fit into a

 7     tractor trailer.  Those who gathered these weapons - and I'm still

 8     grateful to them for that - handed these weapons over to the barracks.

 9             It is quite certain that the great majority of them did not hand

10     their weapons over because most of the weapons that were surrendered were

11     civilian hunting weapons and only a couple of them were semi-automatic

12     and automatic military rifles.  There were among them those who

13     deliberately obstructed this process and even went as far as to

14     physically abuse the individuals who decided to hand their weapons over.

15             So the action was partially carried out, and I was quite happy

16     with that because I was able to continue engaging in human, private and

17     professional, and any other sort of communication with these people.

18        Q.   And my last question:  What became of the individual who

19     surrendered their weapons and co-operated with you with a view to

20     maintaining the peace?  And I'm referring to the Croats and Muslims.

21        A.   I continued to co-operate with them, and, as I've said in my

22     statement, they trusted me.  So, on several occasions when I helped them,

23     and at their request supplied them with some medication that was very

24     difficult to get hold of, especially at that time, including antibiotics

25     and medicine for heart diseases, and whenever they asked me I supplied

Page 46095

 1     whatever I could without any money given in return, because, I, as a

 2     commander, could take this medication from our military infirmary.

 3             And, anyway, we co-operated in every possible way until the

 4     attack on Prijedor and that area causing casualties.

 5        Q.   What was the doctrine of the JNA in terms of co-operation between

 6     the army and the people, when you mentioned these medicines?

 7        A.   I explained on my personal example how that happened in my area,

 8     but I also had the full support of my superior command, and I didn't need

 9     to conceal from my command whom I was helping, including the cases of --

10     when I supplied food to some families who were in need.

11        Q.   How long did this co-operation last; and how long did they stay

12     in their homes?

13        A.   The co-operation lasted till the very end, considering that a

14     large number of them remained in their homes until the end of the war.

15     But what happened after the attack on Prijedor, considering that some of

16     the units that had attacked Prijedor withdrew through Puharska and, as

17     far as my unit is concerned, they had free passage there.  That's why

18     they used this route to attack.  That attack actually resulted in what I

19     initially thought was the number of 30 people, although I later learned

20     that it was perhaps closer to 60 people being taken away on two buses.

21     And among them were some people who would certainly not have been taken

22     away if I had had any influence in the selection because they had proven

23     their goodwill and readiness to have everything done peacefully and in

24     the best possible way.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

Page 46096

 1     questions.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Vujic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

 4     Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

 5     it.  Now you are free to go.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that we need some five minutes for

 9     preparation for the next witness, but before we do so, I have another

10     couple of matters to deal with.

11             First, we will -- the Chamber will issue an oral ruling on the

12     Prosecution motion to exclude, in part, the evidence of Witness KW426

13     filed on 24th of January, 2014, and on the Prosecution request for leave

14     to reply to Karadzic's response thereto filed on the

15     27th of January, 2014.

16             The Prosecution requests that the Chamber order that

17     paragraphs 14 to 33 be excluded from KW426's statement on the basis that

18     they detail events in Kotor Varos, a municipality that has been dropped

19     from the indictment, and are therefore irrelevant to the charges against

20     the accused.

21             The accused responded on the 27th of January, 2014, opposing the

22     motion and submitting that the expected evidence is relevant to rebut the

23     evidence of Prosecution Witness Dorothea Hanson, that Kotor Varos was

24     representative of how nation policies were implemented in the

25     municipalities.

Page 46097

 1             At the outset, the Chamber notes that the witness statement does

 2     not indicate that the witness has any knowledge as to the implementation

 3     of national policies in the municipalities.  In fact, in relation to

 4     Kotor Varos, he states that as far as he recalls, he attended only one

 5     meeting of the Crisis Staff there.  Kotor Varos is one of the

 6     municipalities which have been removed from the indictment.  While the

 7     Chamber has heard some Prosecution and Defence evidence on this

 8     municipality from a number of witnesses, either in passing or in some

 9     more detail, the portions of witness's statement relating to Kotor Varos

10     are very detailed and do not relate to -- do not relate to the charges in

11     the indictment or to a determination of the accused's responsibility.

12             The Chamber further notes that the accused was given ample

13     opportunity to cross-examine Ms. Hanson on all of her reports and that

14     during the course of his cross-examination, that the Chamber admitted a

15     large number of documents he put to Hanson on the topics she addressed in

16     her reports.

17             The Chamber, therefore, grants the motion and concludes

18     paragraphs 14 to 33, allows the accused to tender the remainder of

19     Witness KW426's statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter, and denies the

20     Prosecution's request for leave to reply.

21             For the next matter, shall we upload Exhibit D4204?

22             This is the statement we received as 92 ter statement of

23     Defence's 207th witness, Radomir Radinkovic.

24             Next page, both in English and B/C/S, page 2, just related to

25     question 1.

Page 46098

 1             In the process of reviewing this statement, the Chamber noticed

 2     that the term "concentration camp" was used in the draft English

 3     translation of the statement under question 1, which in B/C/S reads

 4     "sabirni logor."  However, having looked at the B/C/S version of the

 5     statement, the Chamber is concerned that the reference "concentration

 6     camp" may be the result of an incorrect English translation.  Thus, the

 7     Chamber will order the CLSS to revise the draft translation of this

 8     exhibit, focussing specifically on the question -- answer to question

 9     number 1, on page 2 of the statement, and report back to the Chamber by

10     the end of this week.

11             We will rise for five minutes.

12                            --- Break taken at 1.47 p.m.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14                           --- On resuming at 1.54 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration,

16     please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  KW609

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated and make yourself

22     comfortable.

23             I take it that you understand the protective measures given --

24     granted to you, that you will be referred to only by your pseudonym or as

25     just simply "the witness," and your face will not be shown to the public

Page 46099

 1     outside the courtroom.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And before you commence your evidence, Mr. Witness,

 4     I must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have

 5     here at the international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this

 6     rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the

 7     Prosecutor, or even from the Judges, if you believe that your answer

 8     might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

 9             In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that amount

10     to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

11     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

12     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

13     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

14     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But, in

15     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

16     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

17     against you for any case, save and except the offence of giving false

18     testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

25        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 46100

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D09651

 2     without broadcasting it.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you tell us if you see on this sheet before you your name

 5     associated with this number?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered this document, under

 9     seal.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it under seal.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4244, under seal, Your Honours.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, did you testify in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Have you recently had the opportunity to listen to the recording

17     of that testimony?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions you were asked in that

20     trial, would your answers be essentially the same?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we pull up 1D09538, without

24     broadcasting, although perhaps it could be broadcast because the document

25     uses the pseudonym as well.  And then I would tender this document under

Page 46101

 1     92 ter.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't think it is necessary

 3     to call this up.  It's the transcript in English, so we can all agree

 4     that this is the transcript, so I don't think we have to do anything

 5     further with that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered the transcript.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Any objection, Ms. Sutherland?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  No.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive the transcript.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  The transcript actually

12     is in two numbers.  One is confidential, should be received under seal;

13     that's 1D9538A.  And then the public version, 1D9538.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes we'll admit both versions.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 1D9538A will be

16     Exhibit D4245 under seal.  And 1D9538 will be Exhibit D4246.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we deal with associated exhibits,

18     Mr. Robinson?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We are offering 13 associated

20     exhibits, all of those that are not already admitted that are on our list

21     with the exception of the pseudonym sheet.  I can go through them one by

22     one or you can look at them on the chart.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So excluding the pseudonym sheet you're tendering 13

24     associated exhibits?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

Page 46102

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall I hear from Ms. Sutherland whether she

 2     has any objections.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, I do.

 4             First of all, in relation to 1D9644, that document was not

 5     tendered nor admitted in -- by the Stanisic/Zupljanin Trial Chamber, so

 6     it shouldn't be listed as an associated exhibit.

 7             Would you like me to go on?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's better to deal with one by one.

 9             Mr. Robinson, would you like to add anything?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, in principle, Mr. President, something is

11     discussed during the testimony it can be can integral part of the

12     evidence without having been admitted in the other proceeding.  But I

13     leave it to you as to whether or not you believe it is an integral or

14     indispensable part of the testimony.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I take it as a matter of principle there's no

16     requirement for a document to be an indispensable/inseparable part of the

17     document to be admitted in the -- in the previous proceedings.  But in

18     this case, I'm not sure it has any assistance or relevance or probative

19     value to the Defence case.

20             So I -- the Chamber -- if the Defence is not insisting upon this,

21     let's just -- let's move on.

22             Yes, what is your next objections, Ms. Sutherland?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, there are also three Official Notes

24     which are 1D9645, 1D9646 -- I'm sorry, I'll start again.  1D9646, 1D9647

25     and 1D9649, which are Official Notes and there are also a number of

Page 46103

 1     Official Notes and one record of a statement combined within what is

 2     1D9645.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  While appreciating that these form part of

 5     associated exhibits following the Trial Chamber's practice in relation to

 6     these third-party statements, they would not normally be admitted and we

 7     submit for that reason they should not be admitted in this case at the --

 8     now.  And they could be passed out of what is 1D9645.  But --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But we have had practice to exclude Official Note

10     from associated exhibits.

11             Mr. Robinson, do you have any observation?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, in principle, Mr. President, we have not

13     been admitting third-party statements as associated exhibits.  In this

14     particular case where they form a part of the previous testimony and the

15     Trial Chamber that heard the case, we leave it to you to decide whether

16     or not it's an indispensable or inseparable part, but were it simply a

17     witness statement and not testimony from another proceeding, it would be

18     our practice not to admit the third-party statement as an associated

19     exhibit.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I remember at one point in time that we ruled that

21     Official Note is different -- a such is not a third-party statement.

22             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the -- there was a distinction that

24     was -- I think it was with KDZ192 where there was no distinction made

25     between the Official Note and -- and a MUP statement.  They were both,

Page 46104

 1     following your guide-lines, not admitted.  And that's, I think, at ...

 2     Trial Chamber -- sorry, transcript page 19495 to 19496.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Just out of abundance of caution, we'll mark

 4     these three Official Notes for identification and come back to this issue

 5     later on, probably tomorrow.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can I just say the second basis?  I

 7     said the first reason, but I didn't articulate the second.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Simply because there's -- there's no link or

10     there's nexus between the witness and the document and when the witness

11     has simply confirmed that the note is an example of the format of -- of

12     -- of the way an Official Note is taken, the only other thing that he

13     could say in relation to the Official Notes that were shown to him was

14     that he doesn't remember the particular detainee, or he can't recognise

15     the initials of the -- the statement taker.  He hasn't testified to

16     the -- to the content of any of the documents, and so in our submission

17     there is no nexus established between the witness and the document.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a look into that aspect as well.

19             With respect to the last document, i.e. 1D9649, I note that it

20     was not admitted in that trial.  But I'm not sure about the other two.

21     And [overlapping speakers]

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Overlapping speakers] ... and, Your Honours,

23     sorry.  I think it may have been -- it was -- when it was first discussed

24     at transcript page 16831 to 168342 [sic] it wasn't admitted, but the

25     following day, I think through the second Defence counsel, it was

Page 46105

 1     discussed at transcript page 16889 and 16891.  And -- and, at that point,

 2     it was admitted.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for that clarification as well.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Also, just in relation to the associated exhibit

 5     list, I note in relation -- on the -- on the second page of the list,

 6     D3968, in the comment column, it's cited as P659; in fact, that is

 7     exhibit -- Stanisic/Zupljanin Exhibit P671.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And with respect to 1D9645 which is

 9     criminal file and of 59 pages, perhaps the Defence is tendering only

10     first two pages.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, we intended to tendered what was admitted in

12     the Stanisic/Zupljanin case.  I'm not sure myself what that was right

13     now.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll come back to the four items tomorrow and

15     otherwise we will admit eight items as associated exhibits.

16             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Just to note, Mr. President, we've done a little

18     looking on that.  If the Court wants some more information on when and

19     where this issue arose earlier, we can provide that, if it's helpful to

20     the Chamber.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I see no difficulty with it.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Simply noted that we found quickly three examples

23     during the course of the Prosecution case where the Trial Chamber

24     considered that third-party MUP or DB statements or notes were not

25     subject to admission on the basis of the lex specialis of 92 ter.  I

Page 46106

 1     think those arose at transcript pages 11814 and onwards, with Mr. Glavas;

 2     at transcript 17491 through 95, with KDZ340.  And I think in the example

 3     Ms. Sutherland gave earlier, KDZ192 at transcript 1945 through 96.  And

 4     indeed at one point the Trial Chamber itself raised the flood-gate point

 5     which Mr. Robinson agreed with.  We actually had a discussion about that

 6     shortly before this session began, and Mr. Robinson agreed with our

 7     understanding that that had been the practice of the parties thereafter

 8     to refrain from tendering such documents.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Probably I might have been confused with MUP report,

10     so I will take a look again and come back to this issue.

11             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

12             By the way, have we assigned exhibit numbers for the eight

13     exhibits?  We'll do it later on, in writing.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE KWON:  By way of memo.  Yes.  Thank you.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             I will now read out in English a short summary of this witness's

19     statement.

20             [In English] Witness KW609 was a resident of Prijedor

21     municipality.

22             The witness worked at the Omarska camp from May until

23     August 1992.  He states that security at the camp was provided by members

24     of the public security service of Prijedor and its Omarska department.

25             The Omarska camp commander was Mr. Zeljko Mejakic, commander of

Page 46107

 1     the Omarska branch of the SJB Prijedor.  Mejakic's primary duties were to

 2     secure the buildings with detainees, provide food and medical care, in

 3     co-operation with relevant services.  Mr. Mejakic's duty -- deputy,

 4     Mr. Miroslav Kvocka, was fired for having taken three Muslims (his wife's

 5     brothers) out of the camp.  The Witness KW609 states Mladjo Radic was the

 6     shift commander at the camp and Drago Prcac was also at the camp.

 7             The Witness KW609, all the time it's 609, states that only active

 8     police officers had full uniforms.  Reserve policemen's uniforms were

 9     often incomplete due to the lack of uniforms.  KW609 witness states that

10     after the order from Ratko Mladic on the 3rd of August, 1992, the camp

11     was prepared, cleaned, and extra beds put in place for the visit of the

12     International Red Cross on the 4th of August, 1992.

13             Mr. Mejakic was obliged to report to Simo Drljaca and the

14     operational team, part of the latter was also KW609.  Simo Drljaca was at

15     the camp twice.  Rajko Mijic - Branko Mijic, probably - who conducted

16     interviews with detainees at the camp communicated with Drljaca over the

17     telephone every morning about everything that happened on the previous

18     day as well as providing Drljaca with the list of people to be brought in

19     for an interview.

20             KW609 states that there was "support unit" from Banja Luka of

21     approximately ten people (size of a squad) under the command of

22     Commander Strazivuk, present in Omarska.  They arrived with a blue APC

23     and according to words from Mejakic, they were taking gold and other

24     valuables from detainees that came to Omarska.  This act made tensions

25     between the support unit and policemen under Mejakic's control.  The

Page 46108

 1     support unit left these events, were communicated to Simo Drljaca.

 2             There was second-ring security outside Omarska camp under

 3     military security detail.  Military officers under control of

 4     Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic initially also carried out operative

 5     processing of mainly individuals who were members of the Yugoslav army.

 6             There were ten mixed teams working from Omarska.  There were ten

 7     State Security Service inspectors.  Similarly, public security service

 8     had ten inspectors who were under the command of Ranko Mijic.  There were

 9     also members of military security under the command of

10     Lieutenant Majstorovic.  Such organisation/separation of work was defined

11     by Mr. Simo Drljaca in one of his orders.  Furthermore, analysis of

12     documents was done jointly and persons of security interest would then be

13     further processed.

14             Dusan Jankovic was Simo Drljaca's chief deputy and responsible

15     for the co-ordination of the implementation of an order to collaborate

16     with Banja Luka Security Services Centre.  The municipal authorities in

17     Prijedor were providing Omarska with food, while Prijedor Medical Centre

18     provided medical services.

19             It was requested that any individual taken to remand centre must

20     be accompanied with proper documents showing the reasons for detention

21     and/or custody.  This was only respected at the beginning.

22     Interrogations were conducted on the first floor of the two-storey

23     buildings.  Initially people were interrogated on the basis of area they

24     came from and then categorised in three groups:  Group 3 had no

25     information of security interest; group 1 were ring-leaders of hostile

Page 46109

 1     activities; and group 2 were supporters of hostile activities.  First-

 2     and second-category detainees would be transferred to Manjaca, while

 3     third-category detainees would go to Trnopolje.  Transfers happened at

 4     the end of July or beginning of August 1992.  During the whole period,

 5     around 3.000 people were interrogated.

 6             KW609 was aware of only one case of physical force being used to

 7     obtain information from a detainee during the interrogations.  Each

 8     inspector had to write an Official Note after each interrogation.  After

 9     further statements from individuals mentioned in the Official Note were

10     taken, criminal reports were created.

11             KW609 was only aware of one case of a detainee being brought for

12     interrogation with fresh bruises.  In July 1992, KW609 was notified of an

13     event where 18 detainees have been killed upon the recommendation and the

14     list compiled with the Inspector Rade Knezevic.  KW609 reported this

15     incident to Mr. Simo Drljaca.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Before I finish my direct examination, Witness, do you have a

18     back problem?  And could we perhaps ask the Trial Chamber to grant us

19     additional breaks, if you need them, if your back hurts.

20        A.   For the time being, I don't have particular problems.  If

21     something happens, I will ask the Chamber to assist me.

22             JUDGE KWON:  By all means, Mr. Witness.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

24     questions.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have one remark to

Page 46110

 1     make.

 2             I heard in the interpretation that I stated something concerning

 3     a detachment instead of a squad.  Militarily speaking, the difference is

 4     considerable.  This unit was said in the summary to come from Banja Luka

 5     and to be a regiment, but it's actually a squad.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it should be squad.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Just a second.  Refer -- coming back to the issue of

 9     Official Note, suppose they are third-party statement, when confirmed and

10     commented upon by the witness, there's a basis to be admitted.

11             Do you agree, Mr. Tieger?

12             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I recall, Mr. President, that -- that -- well,

13     first of all, that would not be the case, as I understand it.  Of course,

14     if it fell within the lex specialis of 92 bis.  The question was the

15     distinction the Court was drawing in our case between statements of third

16     parties that didn't technically fall within 92 bis, but that nevertheless

17     for other reasons were considered not to assist the Chamber and be

18     admitted.

19             JUDGE KWON:  But when we talk about lex specialis, refer to the

20     statement that have been produced for the purpose of current proceedings.

21             MR. TIEGER:  That -- correct.  As I recall and, again, I'd have

22     to review the research we undertook on that.  Certainly that would

23     embrace -- I mean, that was an issue at one time.  I think it became

24     expanded over time, that at one time it was seen to be simply statements

25     taken only intended to be submitted as statements and then it was

Page 46111

 1     broadened to some extent.  So I wouldn't want to speak specifically to

 2     that.  But I -- I --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  My point is this:  So instead of waiting until

 4     tomorrow and before the cross-examination starts, it would be better for

 5     Mr. Karadzic to deal with these Official Note live with this witness, if

 6     he is minded to tender these Official Notes at all.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're not minded to tendered

 8     those Official Notes unless you felt it was an indispensable part of the

 9     testimony that was being admitted.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That being the case, I will invite

11     Ms. Sutherland to begin her cross.

12             MR. TIEGER:  And, sorry, Mr. President, should have caught your

13     point earlier.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Well -- thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please proceed.

17                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   When you testified which is now the basis of your evidence in

21     this case, you were shown a document, and in our case it's 65 ter number

22     25594, it's a cover letter of the Prijedor municipal secretariat

23     regarding reimbursement of the cost of using buses for the needs of the

24     Crisis Staff in July 1992.

25             Do you recall that document?

Page 46112

 1             Do you recall seeing that document when you -- when you

 2     testified?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, it's an associated exhibit but I

 4     don't know the exhibit number.  That's why I referred to it by the 65 ter

 5     number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  It's now Exhibit D4247, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, I cannot recall a

 8     document discussing money and collection of payment.  I would need to see

 9     the document.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Can you see it on the screen in front of you?  It's asking for

12     the amount of 273.000 dinars for the cost of transport for the month of

13     July.

14             You said in relation to that document when discussing this

15     document that detainees were transported in -- in Autotransport bus from

16     Keraterm to Omarska, and you also said that this transfer took place two

17     or three days after you started working at the Keraterm camp.  So this

18     would have been late May 1992, yes?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   You also testified that once a number of people from Prijedor

21     municipality were brought to Omarska during the day.  You recall saying

22     that?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 18905, please.

25        Q.   Sir, what will be coming up onto the screen is a table setting

Page 46113

 1     out Autotransport Prijedor buses used in 1990 -- for -- in July 1992 for

 2     the use of the Crisis Staff, the police, and the army.

 3             Now, if we look at the entry for the 9th of July, 1992, we can

 4     see that passenger transport was used to transfer detainees from Keraterm

 5     to Omarska.  Do you recall seeing or hearing of detainees being

 6     transferred from Keraterm to Omarska in early July?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we ask for the number under

 8     which -- oh, it's the 9th of July.

 9             It says -- where does it say that it concerns prisoners,

10     detainees?  It would be of assistance.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, these are

12     local lines in Prijedor municipality:  Tukovi-Trnopolje,

13     Trnopolje-Banja Luka, Trnopolje-Modrica, Trnopolje-Pasinac,

14     Trnopolje-Pejici.  Those were local transport services that operate

15     normally every day in the municipality.  Pejici, for instance, is an

16     exclusively Serbian village.

17             I did state that the buses of the transport company Prijedor were

18     involved in the transport of people from Keraterm to Omarska.  That's

19     what I said in my evidence at Stanisic and Zupljanin and I stand by this

20     statement.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I take Mr. Karadzic's point.  I did say we can

22     see on the entry for the 9th of July passenger transport used to

23     transport detainees from Keraterm to Omarska.  And that wasn't what I

24     meant to say.

25             Looking at the entry for the 9th the July we can see that buses

Page 46114

 1     are used, at least four buses for the army's purposes, to go from

 2     Keraterm to Omarska.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, we can collapse the English and zoom

 4     in to the B/C/S further.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you for that suggestion, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Do you -- my question is:  Do you recall seeing or hearing of

 7     detainees coming from Keraterm to Omarska in early July, a large number,

 8     four buses?

 9        A.   Yes.  Some of the prisoners on whom we had some security

10     information were to be transferred from Keraterm to Omarska.  So those

11     persons about whom some security information existed were brought to

12     Omarska for further processing.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could turn the page to page 2 of the

14     B/C/S and also page 2 of the English, we can see the entry for the 22nd

15     of July, 1992, and it shows ten buses for the use of the army going from

16     Prijedor to Omarska and on to Trnopolje.

17        Q.   Do you recall a large number of people --

18        A.   I remember that some four buses were returned to Trnopolje from

19     Omarska because we were not able to receive so many people in Omarska.

20     There was not enough room for them, quite simply.  Yes, that one case

21     happened.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Two pages.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's --

25             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 46115

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Three.  It's three in the English -- sorry,

 2     three in the English and two in the B/C/S.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If you could identify the dates.  9th of July.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it's a two-page document.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  We'll admit that.

 6             No objection, Mr. Robinson?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6614, Your Honours.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, sorry, if we -- if we just go to page 3 of

11     the English and the second page of the -- of the B/C/S, we can see down

12     the bottom of the list for the Crisis Staff the figure 31, and then the

13     kilometres and the figure of 273.000, which correlates with the other

14     document, the first document, that I brought up which was 65 ter 25594.

15             Your Honour, at this point, the majority, if not all of my

16     cross-examination is going to have to be in private session because of

17     what I'm -- the details I'm going to get into.  So I'm terrible sorry for

18     the public that is sitting in the gallery, but there's nothing that we

19     can do about it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The Chamber will go into private session.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  If we're moving in -- I have one point I wanted to

24     raise in open session at the risk of being tiresome but I wanted to -- so

25     we don't have confusion.  The Trial Chamber asked me a few moments ago

Page 46116

 1     whether or not the -- if it is a third-party statement, if it could be

 2     admitted, the witness commented on it.  The wanted to draw the Court's

 3     attention to a ruling in the -- during the (redacted)

 4     (redacted) where I think the -- the practice that I referred to

 5     earlier was followed in which the objection was made that such document

 6     fell within the lex specialis and was considered by the Trial Chamber

 7     to -- to be such.  And the -- the -- the document was not -- excuse me,

 8     was not admitted on that basis.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But I think we admitted yesterday or the day

10     after -- before yesterday --

11             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  That's the reason I went and did the

12     research.  Because it -- it -- it struck me at that point that we had

13     shifted from a practice that had been established before, so --

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think there was a confusion what -- as to the

15     scope of the documents produced for the purpose of criminal proceedings.

16     Whether it is limited to the current the proceedings or it includes the

17     proceedings in the former Yugoslavia as well.  But I think it has been

18     resolved.

19             We'll come back to that issue.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  In any event, I wanted the Court to have the

21     benefit of the citation.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, could the Chamber go into

23     private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 46117











11  Pages 46117-46121 redacted.  Private session.















Page 46122

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session again.

14             Mr. Witness, we continue tomorrow at 9.00.  I like to advise you

15     not to discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are

16     giving evidence here at the Tribunal.

17             Do you understand that, sir?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             Hearing is adjourned.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.48 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

24                           January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.