140130IT

Page 46228

1 WITNESS: JOVO KEVAC [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

4 Q. Mr. Kevac, last night I read your evidence from yesterday and

5 your comments about some of the documents that I was showing you, so I

6 just want to be clear now if I understand your position correctly. It's

7 your evidence that on July 9th and 10th, 1992, you were not the commander

8 of the 2nd Battalion of the 17th Light Infantry Brigade; right? That's

9 your evidence.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You had no responsibility, command or otherwise, for any aspect

12 of the operation at Biljani on those days; right?

13 A. I didn't have any command responsibility. Well, in part it can

14 be understood that it was there because I was present in some areas, but

15 I didn't have any command responsibility.

16 Q. We may come back to that, but I'll just go through your evidence

17 from yesterday first. You weren't Marko Samardzija's superior. You said

18 that yesterday. That's your evidence; right?

19 A. If being a superior is understood as being a --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat what he said.

21 MS. EDGERTON:

22 Q. Sorry, could you stop and repeat what you were just saying

23 because the interpreter didn't understand the words you used.

24 A. So Marko Samardzija participated in the forming of the unit as

25 the unit was set up and recruited. Another man took up the position of

Page 46229

1 the commander.

2 Q. And I'm focusing on the 9th and 10th of July, 1992. And your

3 evidence is you didn't and you couldn't know anything about the killings

4 and abuses that happened at the primary school, in particular on the

5 morning of the 10th? That's what you said yesterday; that's right, isn't

6 it?

7 A. I don't understand your question. Can you please repeat it.

8 Q. All right. I'll try it another way. Your evidence with respect

9 to the morning of the 10th of July, 1992, is that your contact with

10 Samardzija was limited to telling him that when his men finished their

11 assignment of gathering the Muslim men, and the civilian and military

12 security people arrived, they could go home. That's your evidence;

13 right? That's what you said yesterday.

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And Samardzija never told you anything strange was happening at

16 the primary school. He never reported anything was afoot, not in your

17 radio contact, and not when he later reported to you at the station;

18 right?

19 A. I saw Marko Samardzija in the evening of that day, when news

20 reached us that there had been killings. Our conversation had to do with

21 that. We didn't know how many people were killed nor how it came about.

22 Marko did not submit a typical classic report.

23 Q. So when you said in your written evidence at paragraph 9 that

24 individuals and groups that you don't know broke free of army and police

25 control and raided the school and the yard and killed Muslims, you

Page 46230

1 actually really don't know. Based on what you've just said, that's just

2 speculation; right?

3 A. What comes out of this sort of information is that there were

4 groups active throughout the territory, roaming if I can say it, engaging

5 in criminal activities, plundering whatever came within their reach,

6 regardless of the ethnicity. They were simply groups prepared to do any

7 sort of ill-deeds. So at a later date, we found out that it was about

8 these groups who broke free of control and burst into that area at some

9 point.

10 Q. But you don't know because you said it in your evidence who they

11 were. It's just speculation; right? Your evidence -- let's do it this

12 way: Your evidence is you don't know who was on the scene at the primary

13 school; right? You don't know.

14 A. I don't know who you mean. Who was -- what do you mean: Who was

15 in the primary school?

16 Q. All right. You don't know who was there at the primary school

17 from the civilian police, do you?

18 A. No, no.

19 Q. You don't know who was there at the primary school from the

20 military police, do you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You don't know who was there at the primary school from the

23 reconnaissance platoon, do you?

24 A. Can you clarify which reconnaissance platoon you're referring to?

25 Q. Why do I need to do that? Do you know or don't you?

Page 46231

1 A. Within the establishment of the battalion, there was no

2 reconnaissance platoon, if that's what you were referring to.

3 Q. You don't know who was guarding the prisoners at Biljani, do you?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. You don't know what orders they would have had then, do you?

6 A. Save for the usual ones, I could only speculate. No.

7 Q. You don't know who broke free, do you?

8 A. No, but later on through conversations, I am now able to mention

9 two or three groups, but I don't know who they consisted of or what their

10 official name was. One was Osa, Zolja, and the other one was Bicko or

11 Micko, or something like that. But it was not really established. It

12 was simply information that was circulated later on through various

13 stories.

14 Q. I am not talking about various stories. I am not talking about

15 random groups who were roaming through the area. I am talking about the

16 people who you say broke free and perpetrated the killings at Biljani.

17 You don't know who they are, do you?

18 A. No, no.

19 Q. So, actually, really, you don't know anything about what happened

20 at Biljani on the morning of the 10th of July, 1992; right? Anything you

21 say about it is speculation.

22 A. Well, please don't. I know that people were killed there.

23 Q. Unarmed people; right?

24 A. Muslim men who were brought in.

25 Q. Now just to move on, I want to ask you something about another

Page 46232

1 couple of locations we were talking about yesterday: Prhovo and Peci.

2 Do you agree that civilians were killed at Prhovo and Peci at the end of

3 May and the beginning of June 1992?

4 A. I've answered this question of yours, and I now confirm that I

5 truly am not aware of these cases.

6 Q. So since you're not aware of these cases and since you told us

7 yesterday you and your unit weren't even there at that time, your

8 comments in paragraphs 15 to 22 of your statement about the events in

9 Pudin Han and Prhovo are also just speculation; right?

10 A. If you're referring to the fact of whether I had that information

11 contemporaneously or learned about it later on, then you're right. I

12 only came to know about these things later.

13 Q. You also said in your statement at paragraph 9, talking about

14 Biljani, that investigating authorities came from Banja Luka and arrested

15 whoever they could, and as far as you knew these people were taken to

16 Banja Luka and proceedings were conducted against them. That's also

17 speculation - right? - because you don't even know who they are?

18 A. Well, listen, if the fact that I received information at a later

19 date amounts to speculation, then I don't know what to say. We heard

20 that certain people, groups participating in these crimes, were arrested

21 and were taken into custody by these security organs and transferred to

22 Banja Luka. There is another thing that I didn't mention there. It

23 seems to me that on the following day, one of the security organs by the

24 name of Tomic, a refugee from either Bihac or Sarajevo, came to Kosanica,

25 because he had some business of his there, and he told me in passing, We

Page 46233

1 are about to capture two more people. Whether they did arrest them or

2 not, I don't know, but this means that even after these criminals were

3 arrested, this action continued.

4 Q. Let's just stick with your assertion that investigating

5 authorities detained people and instituted proceedings against the people

6 who were responsible for the killings at Biljani. If you know, then, who

7 are the people? Where are the files? Where is the register of those

8 proceedings? Do you have that?

9 A. Madam Prosecutor, let's make this clear. At the level of the

10 battalion, no such records are kept and there is no obligation on the

11 part of anyone to send this information to battalions. The procedure of

12 investigative organs, especially those in the military and with the

13 security organ, when it comes to the police and security services this

14 procedure ends at the local municipal level as well as at higher up. In

15 other words, in addition to the judiciary, this sort of information would

16 also be sent to these organs.

17 Q. Well, let me tell you that this Court has heard from

18 Dr. Karadzic's own Defence witnesses that throughout the whole war the

19 military court in Banja Luka only ever instituted proceedings for war

20 crimes against civilians in one case and this wasn't the one, so,

21 Mr. Kevac, what you are talking about? What proceedings are you talking

22 about in your written evidence?

23 A. I hesitate to use this sentence, but I have to: Please, when

24 you're putting your question, can you refer to the situation at hand. I

25 was talking about the documentation of the people arrested, and I said

Page 46234

1 that the battalion does not keep any records of those arrested. The

2 investigative bodies which are engaged in investigations do not have a

3 duty to send the information either. I was talking about military

4 security organs. And as for the police, I know -- I happen to know that

5 this is the level of public security stations, the lower level.

6 JUDGE KWON: Let me interrupt here. Probably, Mr. Kevac, you

7 didn't understand the question. Shall we upload his statement,

8 Mr. Kevac's statement, paragraph 9. Do you have your statement with you

9 now, your statement given to Mr. Karadzic's Defence?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not here, no.

11 JUDGE KWON: Now it's in front of you.

12 Paragraph 9, second paragraph. That last part:

13 "After this incident, investigating authorities came from

14 Banja Luka and conducted an on-site investigation. They also arrested

15 whoever they could go hold of, and as far as I know these people were

16 taken to Banja Luka and proceedings were conducted against them."

17 So where are the documents of this? If you say so, there should

18 be some documents. Who did you hear this from and on what basis are you

19 saying this? That's the crux of the question of Ms. Edgerton.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is information

21 which was obtained later on --

22 JUDGE KWON: So --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- from people who were initially

24 there and then returned.

25 JUDGE KWON: So please be specific in answering the question of

Page 46235

1 Ms. Edgerton. Who did you get this information from?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How shall I put it? From soldiers,

3 people, civilians. This was all happening later. It wasn't about me

4 reporting this to -- about somebody reporting this to me or about me

5 seeking information from anyone.

6 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

8 Q. So you have no names to give us and you have no documents

9 supporting your assertion; right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. Now your written evidence in paragraphs 4 to 7 --

12 MS. EDGERTON: And just before I finish the question,

13 Your Honours, I note I'm just about at the end of my time for

14 cross-examination. I'd ask your indulgence for about another 7 to

15 10 minutes, if I can.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

18 Q. In paragraphs 4 to 7 of your written evidence, you talk about the

19 situation in Kljuc and you say that it was quiet until what you describe

20 as the first incidents. So those are incidents -- the incidents you see

21 in paragraphs 4 to 7.

22 Now those incidents that you list happened on the 25th and

23 27th of May, 1992; right?

24 A. Those two key incidents, if I can put it that way. However, that

25 first one happened far earlier, as well as the other one related to the

Page 46236

1 relay. I don't know which paragraph that is, the capture of young

2 soldiers and the shutting down of the relay. These incidents happened

3 before the two key incidents.

4 Q. The incident in paragraph 4 happened on the 25th of May, 1992,

5 Mr. Kevac, didn't it?

6 A. I am not sure about the exact date.

7 Q. Thank you. Now with respect to the ones where you are sure of

8 the date, you didn't put that you knew that and you didn't say that in

9 your statement; right?

10 A. Can you clarify what you're referring to?

11 Q. You've just told us you've just confirmed that the -- if I could

12 just have a look at your exact words. The two key incidents that you

13 talk about in your statement, the incidents you describe as key, happen

14 on 27 May, 1992. So you knew that but you didn't say that in your

15 statement; right?

16 A. You mean I didn't state the date?

17 Q. Correct.

18 A. Is that an omission or I simply didn't mention it? I can't give

19 you a reason. Probably as I was giving the answer, I didn't pay

20 attention to that element.

21 Q. Right. We'll go on to one final area and it's at paragraph 13 of

22 your statement, where you say -- where you make a categorical statement

23 that the policy pursued by the SDS and the military authorities of Kljuc

24 never planned or ordered that Kljuc should be ethnically cleansed and the

25 non-Serbs forced to leave. I want to show you, with respect to that

Page 46237

1 comment of yours, a clip from a video.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Which is 65 ter number 40138C. And it's going to

3 be played in Sanction. I should note for the record that this is a video

4 of two minutes in length and the first minute is part of P6552.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The situation in Kljuc municipality

7 is very complicated."

8 The interpreter cannot find this passage.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe we can stop, begin again, and turn the

10 volume up as well, please, to my friends in the audio booth.

11 THE INTERPRETER: We found it now.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

13 [Video-clip played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The political security situation in

15 the Kljuc municipality is quite complicated. We feel free to say that in

16 the last ten days, the situation has improved somewhat."

17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Are we -- are we supposed to watch

18 some clips, video-clips?

19 MS. EDGERTON: One two-minute clip, Your Honours. Do you not

20 have it on your computer monitor?

21 JUDGE KWON: Afraid not.

22 MS. EDGERTON: I understand that this is something that our

23 colleagues in the audio booth, because we're playing this in Sanction,

24 should be attending to to make it available to everyone in the courtroom.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 46238

1 MS. EDGERTON: So are our friends in the audio booth able to deal

2 with the fact that the Bench -- neither the Bench nor the witness is able

3 to see this in Sanction?

4 JUDGE KWON: There seems to be a problem and they are working on

5 it.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honours, keeping in mind efficiency and

7 the effective use of time, this would be my last question. So we could

8 take a breather for a few seconds while they are working on it, I

9 suppose.

10 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, can I say this: Yesterday the

11 Chamber asked the parties for their position as to whether

12 Mr. Mico Stanisic, who is scheduled to testify next week, should be led

13 live due to his position and the fact that he was subpoenaed. The

14 Chamber considered the parties' arguments, examined the statement

15 submitted by the accused, and decided to allow the accused to present

16 Mr. Stanisic's evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter. This decision was

17 communicated to the parties via e-mail yesterday.

18 Further, the Chamber grants the request for presence of Defence

19 counsel, Mico Stanisic, which was filed on the 29th of January, 2014, and

20 allows counsel for Mico Stanisic to be present in the courtroom for the

21 duration of Mr. Stanisic's testimony.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE KWON: We better take a short break for five minutes.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 --- Break taken at 9.37 a.m.

Page 46239

1 [The witness stands down]

2 --- On resuming at 10.09 a.m.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, shall we continue.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, we can go straight to the video. And just so

6 my friends, the interpreters, know, we are starting a few lines down in

7 the transcript from where we started before.

8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Let me ask you frankly: Do you

9 think that it is possible after all these events that Muslims and Serbs

10 should live together in the area of your municipality?

11 "Generally, it's difficult to answer this question. I mean, how

12 do you assess such a matter? I think that life has to be totally

13 ethnically demarcated and the areas ethnically cleansed of all those who

14 cannot live together in this area."

15 MS. EDGERTON: I think the witness isn't getting any sound. He's

16 making gestures.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kevac, do you hear the sound? Shall we play --

18 MR. ROBINSON: His volume needs to be turned up because mine was

19 also very low when we commenced.

20 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Shall we repeat. Shall we play from the

21 beginning.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Let me ask you, frankly: Do you

24 think that after all these events it's possible that Serbs and Muslims

25 should live together in the area of your municipality?

Page 46240

1 "Generally speaking, it's difficult to answer this question. I

2 mean, how do you assess such a matter? I think that life has to be

3 totally ethnically demarcated and the areas ethnically cleansed of all

4 those who cannot live together in this area.

5 "Well, is this better done by war or peacefully?

6 "In my opinion, the only solution should be peaceful, never by

7 war. I think that we have not much influence on this in small

8 communities like Kljuc. I think that the leadership at the level of the

9 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the former Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, together with the Serbian Republic of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, have to do this job, and we will do on that level, to

12 the level of municipalities belonging to the Serbian Republic of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina or the Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina.

14 "If I understood you correctly, this means that it is up to

15 Karadzic in the first place, that the government of the Serbian Republic

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to find a solution in talks with Alija Izetbegovic,

17 with Boban, in this case with Izetbegovic because it concerns the Muslims

18 of your municipality.

19 "I think that this is the only solution. If this solution is not

20 achieved soon, I'm afraid that we will have to get into an even more

21 difficult situation because the war is not over yet. The war goes on and

22 can easily turn into a war up to the extinction of one or the other side,

23 one or the other people."

24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Kevac, you recognised Jovo Banjac in that video-clip, didn't

Page 46241

1 you?

2 A. Yes. And thank you for this opportunity to see the late

3 president even in this way.

4 Q. So Jovo Banjac, who was the president of the Crisis Staff -- of

5 the SDS Crisis Staff in Kljuc municipality, so the highest -- during its

6 existence, the highest organ of government on the territory of the

7 municipality is clearly saying that ethnic separation is the only

8 solution. So --

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask that we be clear. Is

12 the Crisis Staff of the SDS referred to or the Crisis Staff at the level

13 of the municipality as an authority? And reading should be fair and

14 accurate to avoid misleading and to avoid leading.

15 JUDGE KWON: I have no difficulty with leading questions, but

16 clarification may be appropriate.

17 Could you clarify with the witness as to the SDS and the exact

18 reference, Ms. Edgerton.

19 MS. EDGERTON:

20 Q. Mr. Kevac, it's correct, isn't it, that Jovo Banjac was the

21 president of the Crisis Staff for the Serbian municipality of Kljuc;

22 right?

23 A. As the president, he was also the president of the Crisis Staff

24 in the municipality.

25 Q. All right. So here's the man who is the president of the highest

Page 46242

1 organ of government on the territory of Kljuc municipality clearly saying

2 that ethnic separation is the only solution, clearly saying that that's a

3 policy. So when you said --

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. I am not objecting to

5 leading questions, but I'm objecting to a misleading question. Could we

6 please read exactly what late Mr. Banjac said, who should be separated:

7 Those who cannot live together, who are fighting.

8 JUDGE KWON: I'm trying to find the passage.

9 You have the transcript with you, Ms. Edgerton?

10 MS. EDGERTON: I do.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

12 MS. EDGERTON: And I can repeat it.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 MS. EDGERTON: I'm happy to repeat it.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 MS. EDGERTON:

17 Q. Mr. Banjac was asked, Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Kevac: Let me ask you

18 frankly, do you that it's possible that after all these events that

19 Muslims and Serbs live together in the area of your municipality? And,

20 Mr. Kevac and Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Banjac said:

21 "I think that life has to be totally ethnically demarcated and

22 the areas ethnically cleansed of all those who cannot live together in

23 the area".

24 And at the end of that clip we saw, he said: I think that this

25 is the only solution, that that has to be achieved through the

Page 46243

1 intervention of Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Boban, the leaders.

2 So my question, if I can go back to my question --

3 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, where did he say this is the only option?

4 He said only solution would be peaceful.

5 MS. EDGERTON: I'll go further with your leave, Mr. President:

6 "In my opinion," he said, "the only solution would be peaceful,

7 never by war. I think that we have not much influence in these small

8 communities like Kljuc. I think that the leadership on the level of the

9 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 together with the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, have to do this

11 job, and we will all on that level, to the level of the municipalities

12 belonging to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the

13 Autonomous Region of Krajina."

14 And then he was asked:

15 "If he understands you correctly, this means that it is up to

16 Karadzic in the first place, then the government of the Serbian Republic

17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to find a solution in talks with

18 Alija Izetbegovic, with Boban, in this case with Izetbegovic because it

19 concerns the Muslims of your municipality. I think that this is the only

20 solution. If this solution is not achieved soon, I am afraid that we

21 will get into an even more difficult situation because the war is not

22 over yet. The war goes on and can easily turn into a war up to the

23 extinction of one or the other people."

24 I've now read the transcript of that clip verbatim as I have it

25 in front of me.

Page 46244

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

2 Would you like to put your question again? Or, Mr. Kevac, do you

3 remember the question?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this preamble, Madam addressed

5 Mr. Karadzic and me both. I don't know who is supposed to answer.

6 JUDGE KWON: No, she referred to Mr. Karadzic as he raised an

7 objection. Please put your question again, Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON:

9 Q. So this, Mr. Kevac, is a clear illustration that ethnic

10 separation was one of the objectives of the Serbian leaders in Kljuc

11 municipality. That's -- that means that when you categorically denied

12 that as a policy, you were wrong, doesn't it?

13 A. First of all, I'd like to know the time when this was filmed to

14 compare it with the situation on the ground. In your question, you

15 stressed this bit rather than the later passage when it is said that it

16 should be done peacefully. But we see here a man who is burdened with

17 many problems he has to deal with. I read this more as a warning and a

18 suggestion of different ways the situation should be solved and

19 situations that could get more serious and more difficult. But it's

20 important to know the time. Is this April, May, June?

21 MS. EDGERTON: I have nothing further in cross-examination,

22 Your Honours.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

24 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies. But I

Page 46245

1 wonder, when do you wish to take the break? You had a break and I am at

2 your disposal. I can begin, but then we will have to stop for a break.

3 JUDGE KWON: I'll consult my colleagues, but I am minded to take

4 a break after your re-examination is over.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think I'll need at least

6 30 minutes.

7 JUDGE KWON: Given the break we had earlier on, there should be

8 no problem with that. Please proceed.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kevac, you saw a part of one transcript and

12 one video-clip and heard the personal opinion of one of the participants.

13 So I'd like to ask you: What was the thinking and the general attitude

14 towards the Muslim population? Was there a distinction made between the

15 population as a whole and the extremists who had taken up arms?

16 A. In your question, Mr. President, you've already provided the

17 answer. Knowing Mr. Banjac --

18 JUDGE KWON: Did you follow why Ms. Edgerton was on her feet?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I will rephrase the

20 question.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I would like to show you something that the Prosecution hasn't

23 shown us from this same exhibit.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could we please look at the

25 Serbian and English page 2 of this document, 65 ter 40138, and then

Page 46246

1 page 2 in both versions.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Please, look at what Mr. Kondic says at 22 minutes:

4 "Negotiations were held with the most extreme faction and the

5 reply was that they did not wish civilian victims, but they wouldn't give

6 up at any cost, and they'd rather die in battle then hand in their

7 weapons. This is the most extremist faction that I'm talking about, the

8 faction that is so close, so tight knit, and which actually provides a

9 true picture of Muslim fundamentalism."

10 What would you say about this?

11 A. I would say this: The whole psychosis of the war and all that

12 was going on had pervaded everyone, but the leadership of the

13 municipality tried everything possible to keep peace everywhere.

14 Nevertheless, these extremists always posed a danger - I'm speaking

15 slowly for the sake of the interpreters, but I could speak faster - they

16 were trying to secure peace the best they could, but the extremists were

17 a problem not only for the leadership but for their own people. The

18 general conclusion is this: Knowing the personalities involved in that

19 political and organisational leadership of the municipality, especially

20 the late president who was, above all, a humanist and well loved by

21 everyone, all the efforts were focused on keeping peace regardless of who

22 we are talking about.

23 Q. It says in the last paragraph that they had set an ultimatum with

24 dead-lines and that the Muslim side, the extremists --

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can move to the next page in

Page 46247

1 Serbian.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And the Muslim extremists had prohibited their civilians from

4 moving out of the combat zone and even ordered them to stay there exposed

5 to fire. What do you know about this?

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

7 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Well, this is about, as we see on the page that

9 was -- that's displayed in front of us, this is about Prhovo, Peci,

10 Pudin Han, Velagici, places that the witness has even given evidence

11 today that he doesn't know anything about and he wasn't there at the

12 time.

13 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, that's not a valid objection if a

14 witness is giving evidence about things -- and he's answering questions.

15 The fact that he may or may not have answered her questions in a way in

16 which he said he had knowledge of those things doesn't mean that it can't

17 be inquired of. So I don't understand the basis for an objection that

18 he's -- since he already said that he didn't know anything about it

19 therefore he can't be asked any questions, particularly when those

20 questions go to the attitude of the leadership in Kljuc which was

21 directly implicated by her cross-examination.

22 JUDGE KWON: But how does this part of question arise from the

23 line of cross-examination, as it is related to Prhovo and those areas?

24 MR. ROBINSON: It doesn't matter what areas it's related to. The

25 clip that she showed and the questions that she asked were trying to show

Page 46248

1 that the leadership of Kljuc wanted to expel all Muslims from Kljuc.

2 Dr. Karadzic is trying to show that they were talking about the

3 extremists who were engaged in battle and were engaged in activities that

4 allowed them to be arrested, and so that's the point and not whether we

5 are talking about a particular village within Kljuc municipality.

6 JUDGE KWON: The basis that this part is also contained in that

7 video footage?

8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, that's correct, although even if it wasn't, I

9 think the topic is engaged by her cross-examination.

10 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, do you agree this part is part of the

11 larger footage which contains the clip you showed us?

12 MS. EDGERTON: It's a very lengthy piece of film, yes.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson. We'll

15 allow the accused to continue.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you tell us what your experience is and knowledge as to how

19 the Muslim extremists treated their own population who intended to escape

20 to areas out of direct danger?

21 A. I am aware of two cases, and I can confirm here that as units

22 came back for short periods of rest, I would --

23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I would engage in individual

25 conversations with the leaders --

Page 46249

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

2 MS. EDGERTON: How does that arise from the cross-examination,

3 either from the video-clip or any of the other topics I've raised?

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The entire picture that the

6 Prosecution wants to paint is that the Serbian authorities in Kljuc

7 treated the Muslim population indiscriminately in the sense that it --

8 the treatment was hostile and contributed to the harm that came to the

9 population. However, the -- there is evidence that the events unfolded

10 quite differently and it arises from the same footage. If the

11 Trial Chamber should believe it could be of assistance, we would suggest

12 that the entire document be admitted.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE KWON: In this part we agree with Ms. Edgerton. Your

15 question has become very leading. Please move on to another topic. This

16 part Ms. Edgerton showed us was not admitted and we also have sufficient

17 transcript. I think we covered it sufficiently, please move on.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Can we look at page 4 in English and Serbian instead, where

20 localities are mentioned and let's see what happened there. Some of

21 these localities were mentioned by the Prosecution.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. At the previous page, it reads:

24 "Many houses were destroyed. The population fled these

25 villages."

Page 46250

1 And then at the top it goes on to say there were many prisoners.

2 Even the newly built mosque which had yet to be consecrated was

3 destroyed, yet the Serbian army and the police only targeted the houses

4 and buildings from which there was resistance. The new mosque of

5 Alagic's and the one in Pudin Han was one of the strongest Muslim

6 strongholds. The peace that the Serbs offered to the Muslims was

7 rejected in Krasulje, Gornji and Donji Sanica, Plamenica, Prhovo, Ramici,

8 and Kamitcka [phoen]; is this accurate?

9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

10 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

12 MS. EDGERTON: That's just one massive leading question. That's

13 just completely inappropriate.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let me put my first question.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Was it the case that in the villages mentioned by the

17 Prosecution, there was civilian population unarmed, there were no

18 fortifications, and there was no cause for attack?

19 A. Let me put it simply: In my earlier answer, I wanted to stress

20 the two localities that I was personally aware of, namely Kamicak, which

21 belongs to Kljuc but is on the border of the municipality of Sanski Most,

22 and Sanica. In all of these localities, including Plamenice, all of

23 these inhabitants went to Kljuc fearing these extremists. And, in fact,

24 I would have nothing to add to what has been stated here in this

25 document.

Page 46251

1 Q. Can you tell us if there were Muslim settlements whose

2 authorities approached the matter differently and where there were no war

3 activities, there was no destruction?

4 A. There were such settlements. I suppose that you're referring to

5 the villages with a Muslim majority, and I can mention two of those;

6 Namely, Zgon and very well Velecevo --

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

8 MS. EDGERTON: This has nothing to do with the cross-examination,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE KWON: Well --

11 MS. EDGERTON: And actually, Your Honours, to come back to the

12 point we were discussing earlier with respect to these localities, to go

13 any further down that road is kind of assuming facts not in evidence when

14 the witness denied knowledge of anything that had gone on there.

15 JUDGE KWON: We are of the view that the question was

16 permissible.

17 Please continue.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You mentioned Zgon and Velecevo. Can you look at the next

21 passage at 27 minutes. It reads --

22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The fact that Ms. Edgerton showed a

23 small part of this whole video, does not open the door for you to go

24 through every and each part of the document. You should put your

25 question which should arise from the line of cross, and you can then put

Page 46252

1 some part of this.

2 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, that -- I think that's exactly what

3 he's done. He's asked whether or not there were Muslim settlements that

4 were -- approached the matter differently where there were no war

5 activities, and what was the situation in those places within the

6 municipality. This goes directly --

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, he confirmed that and then he enumerates some

8 names of the village or municipality. Why does he have to show this part

9 again?

10 MR. ROBINSON: Well, if there are parts of this that the witness

11 can comment on that go to that topic which is considered to be within the

12 scope of the cross-examination, there is nothing wrong with that. Not

13 only would we have the witness's own --

14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. If that's the way in which he wants to

15 spend his time, we have no difficulty. Is that -- please continue.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. We saw that villages were mentioned where there was fighting.

19 Can you look at this passage and can you confirm that this was not the

20 case in Sehici because Sehici was a majority Muslim village?

21 A. Yes, and it was a satellite of the town of Kljuc, just as was the

22 case with Egrlici.

23 Q. Thank you. And what about Velecevo, Dubocanin, and Zgon? As it

24 reads here, they were exclusively populated by the Muslim people.

25 A. Yes, you could even say that the Muslim population was more than

Page 46253

1 99 per cent. There may have been an odd Serb household there but very

2 few. Yes, you could say that they were Muslim villages.

3 Q. Were they attacked by the Muslim forces?

4 A. These locations were not attacked by Serb forces. I'm afraid,

5 lest the Prosecutor should intervene, there was this incident related to

6 the village of Sehovici where they responded by putting out white sheets

7 in order to avoid that their village should come under fire.

8 Q. Thank you. And what was the significance of this piece of cloth?

9 A. Well, in films or elsewhere this symbolised a surrender. Our

10 understanding was that they were telling us that we should not be

11 targeting them because they were saying we are peaceful and have nothing

12 to do with it.

13 Q. As a commander, did you have any particular markings for your own

14 unit to avoid friendly fire?

15 A. Yes. Normally these marks were worn on the sleeves and on the

16 shoulder, on the epaulette. We had pieces of cloth of different colour

17 and they varied from period to period for understandable reasons of

18 security.

19 Q. The Prosecution suggested that these were mostly civilians; for

20 instance, in Sanica. What were the clothes that they were wearing? Can

21 you tell us? And how -- what was the insignia worn by the fighters?

22 Could they be distinguished from civilians?

23 A. Initially, it was very difficult because on both sides the

24 equipment was of the olive-drab colour that was used by the former JNA.

25 I would like to particularly emphasise the dangerous situations when it

Page 46254

1 came to identification, because certain individuals would only wear parts

2 of uniform. They would have, for instance, a military shirt and the rest

3 would be civilian clothes; or, inversely, they would be wearing only

4 military trousers. In the context of your question, this constituted not

5 just a difficulty for unit commands including the police, understandably,

6 but also for the civilians, for the local population.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how the authorities treated reputable

8 Muslims living in Kljuc who did not engage in the fighting?

9 A. Well, quite simply in a friendly manner. And let me cite the

10 late Banjac here because he was great friends with them. And if this

11 makes any difference, I will mention one name, Dr. Suad Hadzic, a

12 versatile, educated man, free of any prejudice. Every meeting he had

13 with Mr. Banjac would start with hugs.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 8 of this

16 document.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. At the top, 38:10, Ljuban Bajic, a member of the Crisis Staff is

19 speaking, and he was asked this:

20 "At the same time they say that the Muslims in Kljuc were

21 killed?"

22 His answer is this:

23 "These are lies as well. You can see for yourself. If you can,

24 try and come to see the homes of these reputable Muslims. You can talk

25 to them and you will see for yourself that these are outright lies, that

Page 46255

1 there can be no talk of any massacres, imprisonment, killing of Muslims

2 in the Kljuc municipality."

3 How does this accord with your own knowledge?

4 A. I would confirm this and say this: I was mobilised quite early

5 on and came to learn this when I returned to Kljuc for a short period of

6 rest, but I can confirm this.

7 Q. Thank you. Is the name of Emir Kapetanovic familiar to you and

8 what is the person's ethnicity?

9 A. I have to think back if this is Dr. Emir Kapetanovic. If that is

10 the man, he was a gynecologist, a Muslim.

11 Q. Thank you. Did he stay behind in Kljuc and how was he treated?

12 A. I know that initially he was treated properly, but, believe me, I

13 can't set a time-frame on that or say anything else. I know that

14 initially everything was fine.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 14 of this

16 document.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, this is just about the manner of --

19 JUDGE KWON: Yeah.

20 MS. EDGERTON: -- of going through this transcript is -- I didn't

21 stand up the last time on this, but could I respectfully request

22 Dr. Karadzic be encouraged to ask his question and not treat this as an

23 examination-in-chief and lead the witness.

24 JUDGE KWON: So collapse the document first.

25 Could you put your question first that arises from the line of

Page 46256

1 cross-examination?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The suggestion was made on

5 cross-examination that the Serbian side had an indiscriminately hostile

6 approach to the Muslims. I asked the witness if he knew

7 Emir Kapetanovic, I didn't even mention his profession. He said that if

8 that was the gynecologist, then that he -- then he knew him, and he also

9 said that he was able to continue living and working in Kljuc. This same

10 Emir Kapetanovic gave a statement in that programme we were looking at,

11 and I just wanted to ask the witness if this was consistent with his

12 knowledge. Emir Kapetanovic was a doctor.

13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Continue.

14 Page 14 of this document.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Please look at the top. It says:

17 "My practice, I'm a gynecologist by profession, my practice was

18 out of town. I moved there by a combination of circumstances because I

19 could not afford to pay the rent in the town. You know how high the

20 rents there were. It was the war zone and the zone of operations and,

21 alas, it was hit. The practice does not exist anymore. They told me

22 later to go to SUP to report the damage, which is only natural, the same

23 as all the other citizens were."

24 So what is your experience with what became of the Muslims in

25 town, whose property was damaged, and how they were treated as

Page 46257

1 individuals, as persons?

2 A. Well, I don't know about this specific case, but I can confirm by

3 way of a similar case where a proper approach was taken and compensation

4 given. This had to do with the home of another doctor, a dentist whose

5 apartment was damaged. It was in an apartment bloc. His name was

6 Omer Zupcevic, unless I'm mistaken. He was given compensation -- or, in

7 fact, I think the doors and windows of his flat were repaired.

8 Q. You mentioned that links with Banja Luka and Prijedor were

9 burned. Is that true? What kind of connection did you have with Pale,

10 if any? Were you able to communicate with --

11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. -- the Serbs in Sarajevo?

14 JUDGE KWON: Did Ms. Edgerton cover that in her

15 cross-examination?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, your Excellency, that

17 Ms. Edgerton challenged the non-existence of these links, but I can't

18 cite a reference.

19 MS. EDGERTON: That's right because there wasn't one.

20 MR. ROBINSON: But also, Mr. President, in the clip which she

21 played, she attempted to link the events in Kljuc and what occurred

22 afterwards to the policies of Dr. Karadzic as mentioned by the president

23 of the Crisis Staff during -- or -- during the question to him, so I

24 think that Dr. Karadzic is entitled to show that his policies did not

25 include this kind of conduct.

Page 46258

1 JUDGE KWON: But how is it related to any kind of connection

2 between Pale and Kljuc at the time -- or Prijedor?

3 MR. ROBINSON: Well, do you remember in the video-clip when the

4 president of the municipality was asked: Well, would this after then be

5 dealt with by Dr. Karadzic in negotiations? So we think that showing

6 what instructions Dr. Karadzic had given and whether they were followed

7 or even communicated in this municipality would be relevant to that.

8 JUDGE BAIRD: Ms. Edgerton, did you challenge the non-existence

9 of those links?

10 MS. EDGERTON: I didn't raise it all --

11 JUDGE BAIRD: You didn't raise it all.

12 MS. EDGERTON: -- Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE KWON: It didn't arise from the line of the cross. Please

16 move on to another topic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If the Chamber finds it

18 useful, we will tender this entire video-clip and the transcript. I

19 believe it could do no harm to anybody. I tender them, in fact.

20 65 ter 40138.

21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.

22 MS. EDGERTON: I would think only those specific pages that

23 Dr. Karadzic dealt with with the witness. Also, I didn't even tender the

24 transcript of the video that I had played because I read it onto the

25 record two times.

Page 46259

1 JUDGE KWON: So we'll admit those parts we saw this morning,

2 including the part you showed us.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, please, and I don't know if the practice

4 would be to add them to the initial exhibit which was P6552, or mark it

5 separately and then cross-reference it.

6 JUDGE KWON: Then why don't we include all these parts into

7 Exhibit P6552. That will be done.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is the entire page meant or just

9 the paragraph?

10 JUDGE KWON: Those pages that we saw this morning.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Kevac, the question was put to you here why you failed to say

14 something in the statement. How was this statement created? Did you

15 write it yourself or was it created in some other way?

16 A. An interview was conducted with me. I was told how to write,

17 about what. I did it myself but I didn't do the typing. Somebody else

18 did the typing. And perhaps carried away by the sentences and the

19 meaning of the text, I did not pay attention to technical details such as

20 dates, time, and perhaps even locations.

21 Q. Did you receive any questions?

22 A. The question related to - how shall I call that? - adjudicated

23 facts in the second part, but the rest was up to me and to my vision to

24 describe how I saw things, since it was not a dialogue but communication.

25 Of course we corrected certain things to ensure that it was

Page 46260

1 linguistically correct and followed a sequence.

2 Q. In the cross-examination some things remained unclear regarding,

3 in particular, your position and movements in the service along the chain

4 of command. Do you remember when the operation at Jajce took place?

5 A. I think it was September, towards the end of September. To

6 answer this question, quite honestly, I would have to recall some facts

7 because I was with my unit in a totally different theater of operations.

8 The year was 1992.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly look at 1D9629.

10 It's somebody else's statement that I'm not going to tender, but we need

11 to look at one detail in that statement.

12 Can I see page 4, page 4.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Answering the question when you became the battalion commander,

15 you said it was in the end of August.

16 A. The order was communicated to me in end August. Mr. President,

17 please, may I?

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to clear up what I said

20 about being and not being a commander, to make it perfectly clear.

21 JUDGE KWON: You were asked several times by Ms. Edgerton, and

22 you wanted to clarify?

23 Shall we collapse this document for the moment.

24 Yes, please continue, Mr. Kevac.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the establishment of my first

Page 46261

1 war unit, I was put at the disposal of the municipality. Units were

2 established because the earlier units ceased to operate, such as, for

3 instance, the 13th Krajina Brigade that existed in peacetime, as reserve

4 of course. So new units began to be established. The military database,

5 the files were all mixed up so that people who worked in defence

6 departments welcomed the idea of forming units based on information that

7 was collected and lists that were made. When I got the offer to join the

8 station, and it was all about regional replenishment of units, that is to

9 say, the battalion was to be formed from the men in the Sanica area,

10 initially - and I was proven right later - I refused. But it was a time

11 when such behavior was not really popular.

12 The president of the assembly and the president of the

13 Council for National Defence, the officers from the municipality, had

14 some understanding. And when I suggested that I should help establish

15 the unit and train the officers and the men, they accepted pending a

16 decision on my appointment as commander. And I believe that towards the

17 end of August, one officer from the command came because a war assignment

18 had already been given to the unit, and then I was told that I was

19 appointed commander. And for understandable reasons, I could not refuse

20 then.

21 But to make it clearer, in the 17th Light Kljuc Brigade, I was --

22 until March 1993. And then I stayed for a while in Ostrelj at the

23 headquarters of the 2nd Krajina Corps, and from there I was transferred

24 to Grahovo municipality to be one of the commanders.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 46262

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kevac.

2 A. Allow me to finish, Mr. President.

3 In 1994 I was appointed from Grahovo to the war unit of the

4 2nd Engineering Regiment in Laniste. To be quite clear, these transfers

5 took place according to the needs of service and the orders of the

6 superior command. I ended the war in that unit. Now you can see my

7 entire service during the war of which I am proud because I carried out

8 my duties honourably and fully.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the fourth page again.

10 JUDGE KWON: When you said you accepted to be appointed as a

11 commander towards the end of August, did you mean the brigade or

12 battalion? You accepted to be a commander of the brigade?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, sorry. Commander of that

14 battalion. I was never brigade commander.

15 JUDGE KWON: But you said you stayed in the

16 17th Light Kljuc Brigade until March 1993.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the 2nd Battalion was part of

18 that brigade.

19 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

20 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Please look at this. This is a statement given to the Muslim

23 authorities by Borislav Jokic. Is the name familiar to you? He was

24 captured somewhere and gave a statement.

25 A. I remember that man, particularly for the fact that he was

Page 46263

1 captured.

2 Q. You say in the bottom paragraph:

3 "As early as April 1992, the 1st Kljuc Battalion was established

4 in Sitnica and Branko Ribic was appointed commander; whereas

5 Captain Marko Ademovic was appointed assistant for morale guidance."

6 What do you know about this?

7 A. I don't know whether it was at Sitnica --

8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but I know they carried out

10 these duties. I don't know if they were formally appointed to them.

11 JUDGE KWON: Please put a pause between question and answer, in

12 particular when you read something from the document.

13 Yes, please continue.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Further below, it says:

16 "Until he left to go to war near Jajce, the 3rd Company was led

17 by Captain Jovo Kevac ..."

18 And then instead of him. Is this consistent with facts?

19 A. This is a very clumsy interpretation because it was all about

20 establishing the company that was part of that battalion. So I had the

21 same duties as in Sanica. And the commander of that company which was

22 not complete - it received additional recruits from the territory of

23 Kljuc - eventually, their commander was Milovan Vojvodic. He was

24 appointed to be their commander.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P6543 is the next document I would

Page 46264

1 like to show the witness. It's a contribution to the monograph of the

2 1st Krajina Corps. Second page, please -- sorry, third page.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, how much more do you need for your

4 re-examination to be concluded?

5 THE ACCUSED: Maybe 20 minutes.

6 JUDGE KWON: We better take a break now for 20 minutes. We will

7 resume at half past 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.11 a.m.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Could we just have the previous page to see whether that's the

16 2nd Battalion, the one that you talked about. The

17 2nd Infantry Battalion, did it grow out of the Territorial Defence?

18 A. For the most part. But there were also members who had not been

19 members before or persons who had just moved in.

20 Q. Please, do they mention you at all in this initial period as

21 battalion commander? Pekez, Gvozdenac, Mile Gajic, Mirko Markez,

22 Milan Mitic, they are referred to.

23 A. This has to do with the municipality of Sipovo. I know this

24 Captain Pekez.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

Page 46265

1 In English it is page 2.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Are you mentioned here as one of the officers in the first

4 period?

5 A. You mean --

6 Q. The 17th Kljuc, are you mentioned here at all?

7 A. No, no, no. This has to do with the 1st Battalion for the most

8 part.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 8, please, in Serbian, and I

10 think it's page 7 in English.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I'm going to read this out to you:

13 "The 2nd Infantry Battalion was deployed in the area of the

14 village of Duljci and Gorica, and its task was to control the

15 Jezero-Sipovo road and prevent the enemy from advancing in that area

16 together with the forces located in the village of Duljci."

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the

18 question that followed and answer.

19 JUDGE KWON: Take a look at the transcript.

20 Mr. Kevac, can you repeat your answer?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this 2nd Battalion was from the

22 municipality of Sipovo.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you. On the 18th of June, were you commander of the

25 battalion?

Page 46266

1 A. Are you referring to me or to battalion commanders of other

2 units?

3 Q. You, were you one of the commanders at the 18th of June?

4 A. No, I was still working on the establishment of the battalion in

5 Sanica.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 18843, that's the 65 ter number.

8 Could that document please be shown to the witness. It seems that there

9 is no translation for this.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. This is the 18th of June. This is a combat report from the

12 17th Light Kljuc Brigade. And it says here:

13 "During this reporting period in the area of responsibility of

14 the brigade, no fire was opened by the Ustasha extremists."

15 Number 2:

16 "I decided" --

17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's collapse this document.

18 Yes, what is your question before putting this document to the

19 witness?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question was whether on the

21 18th of June he was in the corps command, whether he was part of it --

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and here there is a reference to

24 various persons.

25 JUDGE KWON: He answered the question, didn't he?

Page 46267

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I would like to have this

2 document corroborate what he has been saying, because this commander is

3 saying what he has available.

4 JUDGE KWON: Please continue. We'll see.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

6 shown.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So paragraph 2 says --

9 MS. EDGERTON: We have a translation.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, very good. In what number? Only in hard copy.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Only in hard copy.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we put it on the ELMO.

13 Yes, in the meantime you may continue, Mr. Karadzic.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So can you tell us on the basis of this paragraph number 2:

16 "I have decided to seal off, clear up, and search the terrain in

17 order to force the remaining Ustasha forces to surrender unconditionally

18 in the sector of Ljutica Brdo, Islamagici, Gornje Prhovo, and then to

19 start searching the entire territory of the local communes of Humici and

20 Peci in order to catch and liquidate the remaining Ustasha outlaws in

21 this area."

22 Could you please tell us what your role was at that time, if any,

23 and also tell us whether this was regular military activity?

24 A. I did not take part in this task, but I know that in

25 Ljutica Brdo, because there is this hamlet, Ljutica Brdo, and then

Page 46268

1 Veliki Litice is underneath, extremists stayed there for a long time and

2 they really bothered both ethnic groups. These were legitimate military

3 activities. A unit had been established and its only task was to capture

4 these extremists and terrorists who had fled.

5 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that civilians and innocent persons

6 would be involved in such activities?

7 JUDGE KWON: First of all, how does this document relate to your

8 question whether the witness was a battalion commander at the time?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, your Excellency, first I

10 asked whether he took part in these activities. And then paragraph 3 -

11 and I haven't even reached it yet - the commander is referring to the

12 command corps and giving information about himself and another person

13 called Ljubo Vracar, son of Momcilo.

14 JUDGE KWON: So how is it related to your question, that whether

15 the witness was a battalion commander at the time? You are just putting

16 this document, leading the witness, and which doesn't seem to arise from

17 the line of cross-examination.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I asked him

19 whether he became a commander and, if so, when. Now I am proffering

20 evidence showing that he is not mentioned at all on the 18th of June as

21 one of the commanders, and his statement is that he became a commander at

22 the end of August. Along the way, he's been answering other questions,

23 Prhovo, et cetera, all of these things were raised during the

24 cross-examination.

25 JUDGE KWON: Please move on, Mr. Karadzic, from this document.

Page 46269

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. But on

2 page 6 of today's transcript, there is a reference to Prhovo, Pudin Han,

3 in the question put by the Prosecution.

4 Can this document be admitted?

5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.

6 MS. EDGERTON: On what basis?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, here on page 6, the question

8 is:

9 [In English] "So since you are not aware of these cases and since

10 you told us yesterday you and your unit weren't there at the time, your

11 comments in paragraph 15 to 22 of your statement about the events in

12 Pudin Han and Prhovo are also just speculation; right?"

13 JUDGE KWON: How is this document related to that question and

14 answer?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the most important thing is

16 that he was not mentioned as one of the commanders on the 18th of June.

17 And then there is this other matter, namely, that Prhovo was a constant

18 topic among the military, in terms of military activity, because it had

19 been fortified and militarised. This is not speculation. These are

20 generally known facts.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE BAIRD: Ms. Edgerton, you've heard Dr. Karadzic's

23 submission. We shall like very much to hear you in reply to that.

24 Did I take you off guard?

25 MS. EDGERTON: I beg your pardon, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

Page 46270

1 Slightly. I'm still trying to understand Dr. Karadzic's

2 argument, and indeed that's why I'm slightly off guard because the

3 witness confirmed that he's -- he wasn't in Prhovo, wasn't at Peci, and

4 he's not aware of those cases. And the witness said that -- he confirmed

5 that his answers were speculative. So I actually -- I'm frankly still at

6 a loss to understand Dr. Karadzic's argument, Your Honours.

7 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, if I could try to help. I think

8 what the point is here is was he the commander of the brigade at a

9 certain time. The document that Dr. Karadzic has tried to -- has shown,

10 according to Dr. Karadzic, would indicate -- would tend to indicate that

11 he -- as at least the 18th of June he was not the brigade commander.

12 Now, I have to admit that from looking at that document very

13 quickly, I didn't catch why that document showed what Dr. Karadzic wants

14 it to show. I didn't notice whether or not it reflected the list or a

15 reference to all of the brigade commanders at the time. But to the

16 extent that it does indicate that he was not a brigade commander at that

17 time, that's the purpose for which it's being offered and I think that's

18 both relevant and within the scope of the cross-examination.

19 JUDGE KWON: It has been already reflected in the transcript;

20 therefore, there is no need to admit this. Even if we are to admit it

21 not for the content of the -- this document, only for the fact that he

22 was not mentioned in this document. As such, I don't see any point of

23 admitting it. So that's why I asked Mr. Karadzic to move on. We'll not

24 admit this.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 46271

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Kevac, these places that were enumerated, that the

3 Prosecution suggested had been attacked as civilian locations, were they

4 actually militarised; and in particular, can you tell us whether Biljani

5 had been demilitarised, leaving aside the fact that no one is allowed to

6 kill prisoners? Were these civilians or soldiers?

7 A. If you mean Biljani, should I answer about that? In Biljani, as

8 far as I can remember, five men or five uniforms were captured. I'm not

9 sure now. I am referring to Muslims. All the rest were civilians,

10 Muslims.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D1352, could that please be shown

13 for a moment.

14 This is already admitted. Can we show page 15 in Serbian and 9

15 in English, continuing on to page 10. The number is in e-court.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Can you look at where it reads:

18 "The units organised on the territorial principle, namely, Muslim

19 units, Sehici one company; Rezevici, Egrlici, and then Biljani, three

20 companies, around 200 men, Ale Mujazinovic [phoen] on the run."

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton. We collapse this document.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, maybe Dr. Karadzic could just ask the

23 question.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question was what was the

25 knowledge of the witness, whether Biljani was a demilitarised settlement

Page 46272

1 or a militarised one, and he said that to the best of his recollection

2 there were combatants over there.

3 JUDGE KWON: He said he remembered five soldiers were captured,

4 and then what's the point of showing this document?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well the point is, Excellencies, to

6 see whether the settlements engaging in combat with the Serbian forces

7 were civilian or whether there were armed forces among them.

8 JUDGE KWON: Can you not put that question before putting the

9 document?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I did put that question

11 before calling up the document. The witness said that he recalled that

12 there were five prisoners taken, but I'm sure that this doesn't mean that

13 there were only five of them. Not all of them were captured. My

14 question was whether this was a militarised or a demilitarised area,

15 whether they had units, why was there fighting going on, and why were

16 individuals captured in Biljani? Excellencies, perhaps my line of

17 questioning was not systemic but this is my last witness from Kljuc and I

18 am not sure that I have dealt with the issue of Kljuc sufficiently.

19 MS. EDGERTON: There are other Kljuc witnesses on the witness

20 schedule, Mr. Jerosic [phoen] being one of them whose same we received

21 yesterday.

22 JUDGE KWON: So why don't you put question one by one. So, for

23 example, whether Kljuc or Biljani was militarised.

24 Can you answer the question? Do you know whether or not Biljani

25 was a militarised settlement or not?

Page 46273

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Muslims formed

2 their own Territorial Defence and municipality and they had their staff

3 at Velagici. According to the information that they didn't even try to

4 conceal initially, it amounted to several battalions. The assumption at

5 the time was that they had been formed on the basis of the territorial

6 principle, which was only logical.

7 I talked about those five men in a completely different

8 time-frame. So on the whole, I don't think that that area was

9 demilitarised.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And what about Prhovo, was it demilitarised or did it have an

12 army?

13 A. There were extremists in Prhovo. They were a closed unit but had

14 a special link with Ljutica hill, that was the area of Prhovo in the

15 direction of the Sana River.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how many soldiers did these Muslim

17 formations have in the municipality of Kljuc and all these various

18 settlements?

19 A. Well, if we know that there were five to six battalions, that

20 would be roughly 2.000 men. It depends. Did they have infantry units or

21 light units? Of course, numbers would vary in that case. However, in

22 view of the fact that the area was fragmented, I think that they were

23 organised territorially and that, therefore, they had roughly 2.000 men.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, on the next page we

25 can see that a figure is mentioned which is roughly the one stated by the

Page 46274

1 witness.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you tell us how many residents of Kljuc were forwarded to

4 Manjaca?

5 A. I regret that I don't have that information, Mr. President. I

6 was simply not in Kljuc to be able to know this in detail.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would direct the parties to

9 pages 9 and 10 in English and 10 and 11 in Serbian where what the witness

10 has just stated is discussed.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. There was discussion about who committed misdeeds, whether it was

13 groups under control or out of control. What is your position? Were

14 forces under of control, the ones who committed these ill deeds, and were

15 there groups that were out of control?

16 A. Mr. President --

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, whatever the witness might have

19 said, my questions in that regard were very specifically focused on the

20 incidents at Biljani. I just want to underscore that. So my submission

21 would be this would be outside of the scope of the cross-examination.

22 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, at the end of her examination

23 when she played that videotape she brought in all of the events in Kljuc

24 municipality concerning expulsion, so I think that this is a very

25 legitimate -- well within the scope of her examination.

Page 46275

1 JUDGE KWON: But his question was very leading.

2 Please reformulate your question, Mr. Karadzic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At page 3 the question was put --

4 can I have a moment, please.

5 At pages 3 and 4, this is the question:

6 [In English] "So when you said in your written evidence at

7 paragraph 9 that individuals and groups that you don't know broke free of

8 army and police control and raided the school and the yard and killed

9 Muslims, you actually really don't know. Based on what you have just

10 said, that's just speculation; right?"

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, yes. That's specifically about Biljani,

12 paragraph 9.

13 Yes, please continue.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But Biljani is part of the

15 municipality of Kljuc. I'd like to know whether there were other groups

16 out of control, not just in Biljani, and what the position of the

17 authorities was in that respect. Were they doing it with their knowledge

18 and were there such groups? The witness's answer indicates that the

19 misdeeds --

20 JUDGE KWON: Please answer the question, if you can.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my experience

22 confirmed the earlier allegations, that the war would bring to the fore

23 the scum among the people. It so happened in the municipality of Kljuc

24 that there were rogue groups and individuals who committed misdeeds and

25 criminal offences in general, but they were, for the most part, knit

Page 46276

1 together into a system of reporting. There was one unofficial

2 conversation where we said that because of them we spent more fuel than

3 we normally would for our own policing duties because the police had to

4 go out into the field to address this problem but we did not manage to

5 break these groups apart.

6 One other thing: Many of these groups took advantage of those

7 areas that were quite easily flammable. They weren't operating along the

8 ethnic groups. I would be likely to think that they had their

9 collaborators in these villages because it would be with great speed that

10 they would store whatever they plundered.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And what was the position of the authorities in relation to these

13 practices?

14 A. Well, simply put --

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was listening to interpretation,

17 so I started speaking.

18 The authorities did everything in their power to crush these

19 groups. Even in those cases where these things happened, all -- these

20 practices were always condemned and the position was that they had to be

21 broken apart and prevented from committing these activities.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 18431, a

23 65 ter document.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This is the 28th of August, 1992. The War Presidency explains

Page 46277

1 the situation and states that the security situation deteriorated. In

2 paragraph 2, it is stated that many people are engaged in war units so

3 that the area has remained practically unprotected and --

4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second.

5 Yes, we collapse it.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Please.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton, what is your objection?

8 MS. EDGERTON: That Dr. Karadzic is consistently showing the

9 document to the witness and asking the witness to effectively adopt

10 paragraphs of the document. It's leading, it's not proper redirect,

11 Your Honours.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

13 MR. ROBINSON: I think we have a fundamental disagreement as to

14 what constitutes leading a witness.

15 You have asked Dr. Karadzic to put the proposition to the witness

16 first, which he consistently is doing. And then when the witness has

17 done that, Dr. Karadzic is fully entitled to put to him a document and

18 ask whether that document -- how that document fits with his

19 understanding of the situation. If the document is consistent with his

20 understanding, it can be admitted. That's our procedure. That's our

21 practice. There is nothing leading about that and the Prosecution did

22 that consistently throughout its case.

23 JUDGE KWON: Interpretation has only now been completed.

24 Yes, Ms. Edgerton, would you like to add anything?

25 MR. TIEGER: Ms. Edgerton asked me. Let me just say briefly,

Page 46278

1 Your Honour, something that the Court is well aware of.

2 That general proposition clearly depends upon the scope and

3 breadth; or conversely, the narrowness and focus of the question. It's

4 obvious that one can ask a broad, all encompassing kind of proposition to

5 which the witness -- which the witness affirms, and then claim that as a

6 basis for -- for showing the witness thousands of documents which

7 generally relate to that topic but in a far more specific way. And

8 that's the -- and the Court has, of course, interpreted that approach in

9 a much more pragmatic way, focusing on the nature of the question itself

10 and its relationship to the -- to the document. But it can't be the case

11 that the witness is simply asked this broad question as an excuse for

12 showing -- leading him through a document -- the document.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE KWON: While the Chamber sees the point of Mr. Tieger, the

15 Chamber has no difficulty with allowing the accused to continue with his

16 question.

17 Please continue. We'll bring up the document again.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Kevac, have a look at where it says that in the municipality

20 we are absolutely unable to give protection to the prisoners of war who

21 were -- who have returned from the Manjaca camp. So how does this accord

22 with your experience about the possibility of providing security to the

23 territory where -- where a large number of people have been engaged in

24 military units? And this is what the document states in the beginning --

25 JUDGE KWON: Just --

Page 46279

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. -- that quite a few men were away in war units. Were the

3 authorities able to control --

4 JUDGE KWON: It's impossible to catch up with your speed. I'll

5 check whether it has been translated properly.

6 What was your question? For clarity, I would like you to repeat

7 your question slowly.

8 And before you answer the question put a pause, Mr. Kevac.

9 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will paraphrase

11 paragraphs 2 and 3.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you read it and Mr. Kevac read it.

13 Just put your question.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Kevac, is this report consistent with your experience where

16 it says that the authorities were unable to afford protection to the

17 individuals, the persons present in the municipality because the troops

18 were away on the battle-field?

19 A. I do confirm that there was this difficulty. Let me just say

20 that the number of wartime units increased and they had to be brought up

21 in terms of their strength, and this was done by recruiting people from

22 the municipality. As a result, quite a few of them stayed behind in the

23 municipality. Perhaps it wouldn't be fair to bring this case up, but as

24 I returned from my service in the unit, I came across a friend of mine

25 who worked in the municipal administration, and he told me that they were

Page 46280

1 desperate because they were unable to cater -- or rather, to provide

2 security for all the key institutions. And they feared that large

3 infiltrated groups might wreak havoc on the municipality.

4 Q. And my last question: Did the command of the 17th Light Infantry

5 Brigade know that --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the question.

7 JUDGE KWON: Please repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did the command of the 17th Light Infantry Brigade know and check

10 how its members behaved in view of the crimes committed? Can you answer?

11 A. Yes, I can. I was just waiting. In the analysis of the work of

12 the brigade command and in preparing combat reports, emphasis was put on

13 this issue. And it is certain as far as the brigade command is concerned

14 at the time when I was a member of the brigade as an operative officer, I

15 know that orders were given to subordinated officers to make a

16 comprehensive analysis of their personnel and to put on public record any

17 wrong-doing that may have been done. And I believe in the later period,

18 I think it was January or February 1993, when two members of the brigade

19 were taken out and expelled from the unit and procedure was first

20 instituted by security organs. I don't know the details but that's how

21 it happened.

22 So efforts were made at that time to purge the unit because it

23 was obvious from all the elements that there was fierce fighting ahead.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to tender the

25 previous document and show 65 ter 7816.

Page 46281

1 JUDGE KWON: Before we do this.

2 Mr. Karadzic read out to you a certain passage here, which reads,

3 I quote:

4 "We are absolutely unable to provide protection to any prisoner

5 of war who would be hypothetically returned from the Manjaca camp."

6 What does this reference to "prisoner of war who would be

7 hypothetically returned from ... Manjaca" mean?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that's a question for you, Mr. Kevac.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These people returned to their

11 places of residence. And since those units had left that territory and

12 went to combat assignments outside of Kljuc municipality, in such a broad

13 area it was impossible to provide security to each and every one of them,

14 there was a danger from groups, from individuals of all the people, and

15 above all, from members of units who would come on leave for a day or

16 two. So there were several difficulties involved in providing security

17 to such people.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript. The witness said:

19 "Returning home on leave for a day or two, irritated by the killing of

20 their comrades."

21 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure I understood you, Mr. Kevac. Who are

22 these people, prisoners of war who were or would be hypothetically

23 returned from Manjaca camp?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muslim people who had been in the

25 Manjaca camp. They were released to go home. And all that I have just

Page 46282

1 said, talking about the dangers that existed from groups and individuals,

2 I also mentioned these. There were additional dangers on top of the

3 constant ones, and the municipality did not have enough men to provide

4 security for all of them.

5 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Kevac, are you saying that Muslim prisoners

6 who were at Manjaca camp were released?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how I understand it.

8 JUDGE KWON: And this is a question for Mr. Karadzic: How is

9 this issue related to the general question you put before you put this

10 document to the witness as to, i.e., the position of the authorities as

11 to the illegal groups, et cetera?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is a part of redirect, picking

13 up on cross-examination, on the subject of uncontrolled elements. At

14 that time, there was already talk about disbanding Manjaca, and the

15 municipality was afraid if a part of the prisoners come back they would

16 be unable to protect them, but this shows that the municipality was not

17 able of securing the area, securing the territory.

18 The second bullet point says: A large number of people from the

19 area of Kljuc are recruited into the units, so the municipality is left

20 unprotected from all sorts of excesses that could arise.

21 This is unconnected to Manjaca. But the third bullet point says

22 that if any people were to be eventually released from Manjaca, as we did

23 release them into third countries, they would not be able to protect them

24 if they returned home.

25 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Ms. Edgerton, as to this

Page 46283

1 document, admission of this?

2 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence -- pardon me, your indulgence for

3 a moment.

4 [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

5 MS. EDGERTON: To take a position of principle, Your Honour, with

6 respect to how these documents have been used, I think this document has

7 been used completely inappropriately and the breadth of the area that

8 Dr. Karadzic is now reaching to extends far and away outside of what

9 would be permissible in a redirect examination. In fact, he's

10 incorporating new elements into the redirect that I could justifiably ask

11 for re-cross on and for the witness to be delayed.

12 So I don't think this is something that can be admitted in the

13 way it's been used and offered, Your Honour.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber agrees with Ms. Edgerton.

16 Further, I note that part of this has been already reflected in

17 the transcript. We'll not admit this.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I would like to show

19 65 ter 7816. The question has already been asked.

20 JUDGE KWON: What was the question?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question was: What was the

22 position of the command of the 17th Brigade on these excesses, and how

23 did they run checks and verify whether its members had committed any

24 wrong-doing.

25 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

Page 46284

1 Can you answer the question, Mr. Kevac?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe he answered.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered, but I don't see the

4 text. I only see the cover page.

5 JUDGE KWON: No. If you could answer the question without seeing

6 the document first.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see only the cover page of the

8 document.

9 JUDGE KWON: So you can't answer the question without seeing the

10 document?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can and I already answered, when

12 I said that analyses were done, reports were made, subordinated officers

13 received assignments to the effect, and those two men were expelled from

14 their unit because it was found that they had committed acts that were

15 forbidden.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Overlapping speakers]

17 JUDGE KWON: We didn't hear you.

18 THE ACCUSED: Among others, he said that command made a

19 comprehensive analysis of the conduct. Page 54 --

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

21 THE ACCUSED: -- of today.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This report says that in the beginning of June, the long-awaited

Page 46285

1 initiative to set up the Kljuc Brigade began to take shape. And then it

2 says after that, they proceeded with forming the 2nd Battalion from the

3 area of Sanica.

4 A. Excuse me, I didn't hear the second part.

5 Q. It says then we proceeded to form the 2nd Battalion in the area

6 of Sanica, where two companies and staff units were established.

7 A. Yes. At the beginning, there were only two companies. And

8 according to establishment, there should have been three. Initially

9 there were not enough men.

10 Q. Then they list various difficulties, and the fourth paragraph

11 says:

12 "The work of commands and unit members on the front line is

13 exemplary as there have been no incidents that would have had a negative

14 impact on the work of units."

15 This is dated 28th July after Biljani. Did this analysis cover

16 the incident at Biljani?

17 A. I am not sure, but I could give you a complete answer to this

18 question. Probably the analysis dealt with the current situation. I'm

19 sorry, Mr. President, I can't answer because the battalion had not been

20 completely established if this is the month of July.

21 Q. For whom are reports like this usually written?

22 A. Reports on the work of brigades are written for the leadership of

23 the municipality and they are copied to the corps command or units that

24 were linked to the 30th Division.

25 Q. This is strictly confidential, military secret, as we see on the

Page 46286

1 first page. To whom could this report have been made available?

2 A. To superior commands. But it could have been sent -- I don't

3 know if the Crisis Staff existed at the time. But those passages that

4 deal with incidents and the behaviour of soldiers returning for short

5 leave from the front line.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this report.

7 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Again, I don't see how and for what purpose

10 because the witness himself said he wasn't in a position to comment on

11 the content of the report. What we have are observations about the form

12 of this report, which is issued at a time when the witness stipulated

13 over and over he wasn't in the command of the battalion.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it was -- he was a part of the

15 17th at the time when units were being established. This is an

16 evaluation of the brigade with all its units, the 28th July, after

17 Biljani. The brigade had established that its members were not

18 responsible for Biljani.

19 JUDGE KWON: But it's totally different from the question you put

20 before as a foundation to the witness, so on checking and on analysing

21 the -- if Mr. Robinson could assist us.

22 MR. ROBINSON: I see your point, Mr. President. It's -- the

23 point that's illustrated by the document is different than the one that

24 was put to the witness before the document was shown to him, so I

25 understand that.

Page 46287

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may explain what I wanted to

3 say. Did the brigade take into account Biljani, and did the brigade find

4 any of its members to be responsible? What was the evaluation of the

5 brigade of the conduct of its members?

6 JUDGE KWON: Well, can you answer the question?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, I can, I'm just going to

8 repeat that part; namely, at the time the 2nd Battalion had not be

9 established yet but it had been subjected to analyses. As a matter of

10 fact, as far as I can remember, reports were sent more often than from

11 other units precisely for the purpose of seeking assistance to have a

12 full complement.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. What was the position of the brigade? Were its members

15 responsible for the crime in Biljani?

16 A. Well, I referred to that yesterday in part. The position of the

17 brigade was - namely, all of those who had come to the relevant

18 information - that this had not been done by the members of -- or,

19 actually, the personnel who were involved, who were on the job that day,

20 because I want to be understood fully. These groups that were loitering

21 about wore uniforms, too. So I'm afraid that I might be misunderstood,

22 that the possibility exists that some of them might have been members of

23 a unit, but on the whole members of the 17th Light Brigade did not commit

24 crimes.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 46294

1 statement in lieu of your oral testimony. Now, you'll be cross-examined

2 by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you understand

3 that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Zec.

6 MR ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Milojica.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. You told us in your statement that you were member of the

11 343rd Prijedor Motorised Brigade. You were serving within the same unit

12 throughout the war; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you also said that you were absent from the unit for six

15 months during your recovery. Apart from this, Mr. Milojica, there was no

16 other interruptions in your military service; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This Chamber has heard evidence that the Serb forces took over

19 the power in Prijedor in late April 1992. You know that this happened in

20 Prijedor; right?

21 A. I heard about that.

22 Q. You say in your statement that on 22nd May, 1992, you went to the

23 barracks to request -- to report to your unit in order to be transferred

24 to Slavonia. This Chamber has received evidence that on 20th and

25 22nd May, 1992, Mr. Karadzic, and subsequently Prijedor Crisis Staff,

Page 46295

1 issued orders on mobilisation calling all conscripts to report to their

2 units; P3919, P3537. So in fact, Mr. Milojica, this was the reason for

3 you to go to the barracks; right?

4 A. I had already been mobilised. May I speak now?

5 Q. Yes, please.

6 A. I had already been mobilised. I was in Western Slavonia at the

7 front line.

8 Q. Did you hear on the newspaper or TV, radio, calling for

9 mobilisation, all conscripts to go to their units, wherever they are,

10 around this date 22nd May, 1992? Maybe a day or two before this.

11 A. Yes, there was mobilisation and Mijatovic, Antunovic, and Lulic

12 were mobilised on that day.

13 Q. All right. You say in your statement that you recognised

14 Aziz Aliskovic and Ferid Delic at the check-point in Hambarine. With

15 respect to Ferid Delic, is it possible that you made a mistake and it was

16 some other person, not Ferid Delic?

17 A. No, because he was with us in Western Slavonia. He was in our

18 unit. And then he went over to them that day when mobilisation took

19 place.

20 Q. Mr. Karadzic has presented to this Chamber a case file concerning

21 this incident, and in that case file there is no mention of any

22 Ferid Delic, so is it possible that your memory of Ferid Delic is related

23 to something else, maybe Slavonia?

24 A. I remember very well that I saw him at the check-point and he

25 held an automatic rifle, and he had a Zolja.

Page 46296

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

2 be asked to come closer to the microphone. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milojica, could you come closer to the

4 microphone.

5 MR ZEC: Let's have a look at this case file. It's D4258. We

6 need e-court page 32, B/C/S e-court page 36.

7 Q. And you will be able to see the SJB Prijedor note concerning an

8 interview with Ferid Sikiric on 3 June, 1992.

9 MR ZEC: So it's B/C/S 36, English should be 32.

10 Q. And the note says:

11 "On 22nd May, 1992, I was at check-point in Hambarine. The

12 following were with me: Aziz Aliskovic," and then you can see on the

13 screen the names of others.

14 A few lines before that, it says:

15 "Then a civilian vehicle arrived, security at the check-point

16 stopped the vehicle and Aziz Aliskovic approached the driver who was

17 wearing civilian clothes. The driver then got out of the vehicle and

18 stood next to its open door. There were people in military uniforms

19 sitting on the backseat. Then I, too, approached the vehicle."

20 It continues:

21 "I heard Aliskovic tell the driver that the soldiers did not have

22 the prescribed insignia on their uniforms and that they must leave their

23 weapons and go to the barracks to see the commander. The soldiers

24 refused to do this and did not want to surrender their weapons, even

25 though the driver tried to persuade them, that they would not have any

Page 46297

1 problems because he knew Aziz Aliskovic personally. After the soldiers

2 refused to disarm, the vehicle came under fire. I had a feeling that the

3 shots were coming from all directions."

4 So, Mr. Milojica, what is noted here is that, first, there was no

5 Ferid Delic - right? - at this check-point?

6 A. Well, that is the way it's written here, but I know that there

7 were several of them. It wasn't only these names. There were at least

8 30 of them at the check-point, some of them in civilian clothes, some of

9 them in military uniforms, and others in police uniforms.

10 Q. Contrary to your statement, we see here that you did not have

11 proper insignia on your uniforms when you got to the check-points. That

12 was the case; right?

13 A. That was not the case. At the time we all wore those JNA

14 uniforms, those who had been mobilised. Only these three wore civilian

15 clothes.

16 Q. And you refused to surrender your weapons.

17 A. Not correct. The late Lukic asked that we surrender our weapons

18 and asked whether they would return us to barracks then, and they

19 promised that they would.

20 Q. You say that you recognise Aziz Aliskovic. He was captured by

21 the Serb forces. After, he was killed and his body was displayed in

22 public. You know this; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now I'm going to show you a video-clip that shows the body of

25 Aziz as well as VRS soldiers and police members. After we see the clip,

Page 46298

1 I will ask you to identify people you recognise on the video that you're

2 going to see.

3 MR ZEC: Mr. President, there is very little talk on the video,

4 so I think we can go without translation, and the video is in Sanction so

5 you will be able to see what is said there.

6 [Video-clip played]

7 MR ZEC:

8 Q. Mr. Milojica, did you recognise anyone? Can you tell us names?

9 A. Well, I recognise this guy who they called Cigo, and there was

10 this other group. Vilo, I think his name was --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand the name.

12 MR ZEC:

13 Q. Can you repeat the last name that you just mentioned.

14 A. Ljuban, Vilo.

15 Q. Did you recognise the body at the beginning?

16 A. Well, I didn't actually.

17 Q. These soldiers said -- they referred to Aziz. Did you recognise

18 this as Aziz that you recognised at the check-point?

19 A. Well, here, no, I didn't because there is this beard on him and I

20 don't know what. He looked different to me.

21 Q. Did you recognise -- do you recognise this location? Where is

22 this?

23 A. I cannot answer that. I don't know where that would be roughly.

24 I can barely see all of this.

25 Q. The uniform that you wore in 1992 looked like this, the

Page 46299

1 olive-green uniforms that we saw on the video; right?

2 A. Well, that was that single uniform of the JNA.

3 Q. And you say this was the way the JNA soldiers wore the uniforms?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR ZEC: Your Honours, I would offer this video if there is no

6 objection.

7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, there is an objection, Mr. President. The

8 witness has confirmed nothing about the contents of this video.

9 JUDGE KWON: What's the point of this video? What do you try to

10 prove through this video, Mr. Zec?

11 MR ZEC: I can move on. That's all right. I was --

12 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

13 MR ZEC: -- hoping the witness would recognise the person he said

14 he recognised in his statement as well as the uniforms the soldiers were

15 wearing, but I can move on.

16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.

17 MR ZEC:

18 Q. Mr. Milojica, this is not the first time you are appearing before

19 court. Prior to this testimony, you appeared before the judicial

20 authorities in Banja Luka; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In 2006, you testified in the case against your cousin,

23 Boro Milojica; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. He was convicted for war crimes for the killing of Rasim Cehic in

Page 46300

1 Hegici in August 1992; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you testified in his defence; right?

4 A. Well, they called me only to testify about what had happened at

5 Hambarine. I think that was what I talked about. They also asked me, I

6 think, about Milenko Lulic, what he looked like, whether he wore a red

7 ribbon or something like that.

8 Q. Mr. Milojica, this is not that case. This is Boro Milojica,

9 your cousin. He was on trial in Banja Luka in 2006 for the killing of

10 Rasim Cehic in Hegici in August 1992. That's what you testified about;

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you wanted to help your cousin on trial by offering evidence

14 which was contrary to all other evidence adduced in that case; right?

15 A. No, no. I can't remember what I said.

16 Q. So the case -- the evidence in that case showed that at the time

17 of this crime, your cousin, Boro, had a beard, and you told the Court

18 that he didn't; right?

19 A. Well, as far as I remembered, he didn't have a beard when I came

20 out of the hospital. I didn't see him every day. And 10 or 15 days is

21 not enough for a beard to grow, so I don't understand that.

22 MR ZEC: Let's have a 65 ter -- let's have a look at

23 65 ter 25808. And this is a judgement in the case of Boro Milojica from

24 2006. We will need English page 6, B/C/S page 9.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we're waiting, can I

Page 46301

1 intervene for the transcript. In line 12, I am not sure that the witness

2 said that 10 or 15 days is not enough. I think that the witness said

3 that it was enough for a beard to grow. Can this be clarified with the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milojica, do you confirm having said so?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That a beard can grow in 10 or 15

7 days.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

9 Yes, Mr. Zec.

10 MR ZEC: Thank you.

11 So we need a passage on the first -- first part of the page in

12 both languages. It's upper part. In B/C/S, it starts some eight lines

13 below from the top. In the English, it starts from the second line from

14 the top.

15 Q. It starts with:

16 "The witness, cousin of the accused, Milojica, Ratko."

17 MR ZEC: Mr. Registrar, if you can move the B/C/S a little bit

18 up.

19 Q. So do you see your name, Mr. Milojica?

20 A. Where?

21 Q. On your left-hand side there is a B/C/S. If you read from -- I

22 can read for you, that's no problem. It says:

23 "The witness, cousin of the accused, Ratko Milojica."

24 And then the Court summaries the evidence.

25 Several lines below, towards the middle of the page, the Court

Page 46302

1 said about your testimony the following:

2 "The only fact negated by the witness is that Boro had a beard at

3 the time in question. However, the Court does not accept this part of

4 the testimony and it is contrary to all other statements. It is the

5 opinion of the Court that the witness, who is related to Boro, is trying

6 to describe Boro differently as not having a beard."

7 So, Mr. Milojica, the fact is that the Court did not accept this

8 and found that you wanted to help your cousin by providing false

9 testimony; right?

10 A. No, I said that a beard can grow quickly, and I didn't see him

11 every day. And I wasn't able to say how often I'd see him.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said last.

13 MR ZEC:

14 Q. Mr. Milojica, you said something at the end but the interpreters

15 did not hear what you said, the last thing that you said. So can you

16 repeat?

17 A. Well, I said that I didn't see Boro every day and that it can

18 take 10 to 15 or 20 days for a beard to grow and that I didn't know at

19 all what kind of beard he had at the time.

20 MR ZEC: I tender this document, Mr. President.

21 MR. ROBINSON: It's been read out -- the portions have been read

22 out, Mr. President. I don't think it's needed as an exhibit.

23 MR ZEC: But what I'm tendering is -- in the English we already

24 have partial translation, which is details of the case and what is

25 relevant, so I would tender these three pages basically -- or, I'm sorry,

Page 46303

1 whatever is in English.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure about the pages, but we'll admit those

4 pages shown to the witness.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6622, Your Honours.

6 MR ZEC:

7 Q. In addition to this, Mr. Milojica, your -- Boro Milojica that we

8 just talked about, and Ranko Karan involved in the murder of the Croatian

9 -- Croat -- sorry, of the Catholic priest, Ivan Grgic, in 1992; right?

10 A. No, we were not. I gave a statement as a witness. There was a

11 man who confessed to having done this who subsequently committed suicide.

12 Q. So you're saying you never -- you have never been tried for this

13 murder, that's right?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How do you mean "no"? Were you on trial for this murder or not?

16 A. No. I only gave a statement as a witness, as an eye-witness of

17 this incident.

18 Q. And what you did is you and others went to the priest house, you

19 intimidated him, you robbed him, you took him to Ljubija, you tortured

20 him, and then blamed this person - who is, by the way, Ivica Pavlovic, a

21 Croat - for killing the priest. That's what you told the Court but

22 whatever -- that's your version of the story; right?

23 A. No, no. Not at all. We weren't there. He took him out and he

24 asked Boro to take him to Ljubija, to the command there.

25 MR ZEC: Can we have a look at 65 ter 25810.

Page 46304

1 Q. If you look at the screen, that's statement from 1993. If you

2 look at the bottom of the page, is that your signature?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR ZEC: Can we have page 3, e-court page 3 in both languages.

5 Q. So you first explained there how you went and how you got to the

6 priest house, and you say, We sit down with the priest and ask him where

7 the weapons were. A little bit further. The priest Grgic kept saying he

8 knew nothing, then Ranko Karan searched the priest house and found 300

9 Deutschmarks and 100 Swiss franks under the pillow. After that, we told

10 the priest Grgic to come with us, saying that we were taking him to

11 Ljubija for questioning. We wanted to frighten him.

12 A few lines down:

13 We arrived at Ljubija mine. We went to Kipe, part of Ljubija

14 mine, and took the priest out of the car. Roca ordered him to lie down.

15 And then he did. Roca asked him, Where are the weapons? And hit him

16 twice. Then the priest said, I don't know. I don't. He said, Don't,

17 I'll tell you. At that point Ivica Pavlovic took from me an automatic

18 rifle and fired a burst of some 15 bullets at the priest.

19 Next page in both languages. There you explained that you shared

20 the money and you also say that you just left the body there, didn't

21 cover it. And again, you were asked about who was -- about beating, and

22 you said -- in the third last paragraph, you say that it's Roca, that he

23 hit the priest only once, but it was more like a joke.

24 Mr. Milojica, this is what you stated about this murder. This is

25 your version of the story; right?

Page 46305

1 A. I don't know that I stated this. I don't remember. Anybody

2 could have written this. I don't know who worked for the military police

3 at the time.

4 JUDGE KWON: Do you see your signature here, Mr. Milojica?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

6 JUDGE KWON: Is that your signature?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

8 MR ZEC: And if I can add, Mr. President, the last paragraph, it

9 says:

10 "After being advised of the content of Article 82 of the criminal

11 procedure code, the suspect stated that he did not wish to read the

12 record because it was dictated to him out loud, and he would sign it

13 without any objections."

14 Q. So, Mr. Milojica, this is your statement. It was read to you out

15 loud and you signed it. This is your version of the story; right?

16 A. No, I don't remember this. I don't think this statement was read

17 out to me. I think that one of them compiled it when they were

18 questioning us, or perhaps it was Pavlovic who gave this sort of

19 statement.

20 Q. So lie -- you're saying that this investigative judge, the court

21 clerk, they're all lying? That's what you're saying, yeah?

22 A. Well, I'm not saying that they are lying. I'm saying that I

23 cannot remember giving this statement.

24 Q. So you're saying now this is not your version of the story. You

25 have some other version of the story. Is that what you're saying?

Page 46306

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So what is your version now? Tell us.

3 A. Well, we came in a car, met Pavlovic who told us that we should

4 pull up by the church because he had to take the priest to Ljubija

5 because he had orders to bring him over there. When we reached the mine

6 up there, he said that they had to go out to the toilet. And then a

7 hundred metres away from the car, he fired several shots at him.

8 Q. So now you're saying Ivica shot him on his own. You were not

9 there at all. That's what you're saying?

10 A. Well, yes. He took him a hundred metres away from the car and

11 killed him. We weren't close by at all.

12 Q. Are you now -- he shot him -- your previous story was that he

13 shot him from your rifle, he took rifle from you. So is that one -- is

14 that still the same or is that different?

15 A. That's not correct. That's not correct. I didn't have a rifle

16 at all. I was still on sick leave. I was receiving treatment at the

17 time. I was in civilian clothes. I was getting a lift to Ljubija with

18 them because I was supposed to see the doctor on the following day. I

19 didn't have a rifle at all. My rifle was taken from me at Hambarine when

20 I was wounded. No, not at Hambarine when I was wounded. I didn't have

21 my rifle at all. I didn't bring it along with me from Slavonia.

22 Q. In your signed statement that was read out loud to you, you said:

23 At that moment Ivica Pavlovic took from me an automatic rifle and fired a

24 burst killing the priest. So that's not correct. You're changing that

25 part of the story, yeah?