1 Friday, 14 February 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
6 The Chamber will first issue its ruling on the accused's request
7 for adjournment to prepare for his testimony filed on the
8 11th of February, 2014, wherein he seeks a two-week adjournment prior to
9 the start of his testimony and requests that his testimony begins on the
10 11th of March, 2014. The Prosecution responded on the 12th of February,
11 not opposing this request. Having considered the accused's arguments,
12 the Chamber has decided to granted the request in part and hereby orders
13 that the testimony of the accused shall commence on the 4th of March,
15 The Chamber takes this opportunity to remind the accused that the
16 Chamber initially granted him 300 hours in which to present his entire
17 defence case, which was augmented to 325 hours after Count 1 was
18 reinstated in the indictment following the appeal judgement on the
19 11th of July, 2013. On these -- of these 325 hours, as of the end of
20 yesterday's hearing, the accused had used 301 hours and 18 minutes,
21 thereby leaving him with 23 hours and 42 minutes left in which to present
22 the remainder of his case. The Chamber has voiced on repeated occasions
23 that it was concerned with the manner in which the accused chose to spend
24 the time allocated to him and considered that, having passed the 300-hour
25 mark, it was opportune to remind him once again.
1 Next, on the topic of scheduling, Mr. Tieger, the Chamber wished
2 to inquire whether the Prosecution is in a position to state whether it
3 will be minded to file a motion to present rebuttal evidence in this
5 MR. TIEGER: We will, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, the Chamber expects you to file
7 that -- file it by 4th of March, 2014.
8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President, understood.
9 JUDGE KWON: Finally, Mr. Robinson, in reference to the Defence
10 submission of evidence related to sentencing filed on the 8th of January,
11 2014, in which the Defence tenders for admission a number of documents
12 related to the Holbrooke Agreement, my colleagues would like you to file
13 a supplemental submission, elaborating further on how these documents are
14 relevant to sentencing and/or mitigation of sentence. In other words,
15 rather than simply repeating the ruling of the Appeals Chamber on this,
16 you are requested to articulate what your case is on their relevance to
17 sentencing. Could you file this submission by the close of business on
18 Tuesday, next week?
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE KWON: And just one further thing, I just wanted to put it
21 on record that the Chamber yesterday instructed its Legal Officer to
22 communicate to the parties as to the redaction of certain paragraphs of
23 statements of Mr. Sarac and Glamocic.
24 Unless there's further thing to be discussed, we'll bring in the
25 next witness.
1 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. On the subject of scheduling,
3 I just wanted to advise the Chamber that, as you've instructed, we have
4 waited until the end of our case before making bar table motions, but we
5 will be making some. So if you wish to set any dead-lines for those, it
6 would be helpful to know those as far in advance as possible, but we will
7 be working on those as we go along and after the testimony of
8 Dr. Karadzic concludes.
9 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will come back to this issue. Thank
11 Shall we bring in the witness.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Jurisic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll continue with your cross-examination.
16 Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
18 WITNESS: SLOBODAN JURISIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jurisic.
22 A. Good morning, Madam Prosecutor.
23 Q. Mr. Jurisic, in your written evidence you, I noted, said that
24 while the Muslims in Kljuc were being mopped up and disarmed by the
25 police and the army, there were some renegades who you said were out of
1 control, who were killing them at Velagici and plundering their homes and
2 destroying their property. And I want to ask you about that. But I want
3 to talk first about Velagici. Actually, you know who the perpetrators
4 are of the massacre at Velagici, don't you?
5 A. The day after this happened at Velagici, I found out in the
6 office of the president of the municipality, I heard the officers talking
7 about a crime that had been committed. I didn't know what had happened
8 at the time. However, when I heard that the military police would go and
9 arrest someone, later on it became apparent that the military police
10 identified two or three rogue soldiers who committed the crime. I know
11 that the investigating judge drafted a record and that the military
12 police took these two into custody in the Banja Luka detention facility.
13 They were subsequently released - I don't know how this came about - into
14 the 7th Kupres Motorised Brigade and they stayed in that brigade. This
15 was the extent of my knowledge. I only came to learn more of these
16 details later. I didn't know the real truth at the time. What I do know
17 is that the four of them were investigated and interviewed and detained
18 in the military remand prison in Banja Luka.
19 Q. And you also know, as you've just said, they were released, they
20 were never prosecuted; right? They weren't prosecuted until after the
21 end of the war?
22 A. They were released and assigned to the 7th Kupres Brigade. It
23 was only based on some reports and records that I saw that they were
24 there and that they stayed there until the end of the war, although they
25 were re-assigned to other units. However, they were not detained or
1 tried after that first instance when they were taken into custody in the
2 Banja Luka prison.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, did you say something?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies, in line 18, I'd
5 like to know where this comes from, what's the reference for the fact
6 that they were never prosecuted?
7 JUDGE KWON: She asked -- she supplemented, they weren't
8 prosecuted until after the end of the war.
9 Shall we continue.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 Could we have a look, please, at P3616.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, there's a difference.
13 It's not true that they were not prosecuted. If -- they may not have
14 been put at trial until the end of the war, but it's not that a decision
15 was made not to prosecute them.
16 JUDGE KWON: That is beyond the intervention for the purpose of
17 cross-examination. The witness sufficiently understood the question. I
18 think we can continue.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Jurisic, this document is from the military prosecutor's
21 office at the 1st Krajina Corps command, and it's dated 29 July 1993.
22 And this is the document -- and this document says that proceedings
23 against the suspects began in 1993 but were terminated. And the very
24 last sentence of the largest paragraph says that one of the reasons they
25 were terminated is "because of the stance of the deputy prime minister of
1 the Republika Srpska and the chairman of the Kljuc Municipality Executive
2 Committee ..."
3 So, Mr. Jurisic, this document shows that the prosecutions --
4 that the municipal authorities of your municipality were making sure
5 those prosecutions never happened; right?
6 A. I can only confirm for you that I didn't hear anything about this
7 from any of the official organs. After this happened, no meetings were
8 convened or anything of the sort. These were stories that circulated in
9 the municipality. I cannot claim that somebody was directly in favour of
10 this. I can only tell you that those of us municipal officials were not
11 aware of the fact that their release was being sought. I don't know how
12 anyone from the Executive Board could have -- we didn't even have a
13 president of the Executive Board. We only have -- had a vice-president
14 who was acting president. He was the vice-president to the previous
15 president who wasn't there anymore. I don't know if anybody talked to
16 the military. I can't deny it or confirm it. I know that they were
17 released, and that's the only thing I know. I don't know what followed.
18 I know that the perpetrators stayed within the Kupres Brigade until
19 further notice.
20 Q. Thank you --
21 A. Nobody informed us of the fact that there had been an
22 intervention to release them. My general impression of the whole affair
23 was that the municipal authorities and others, when it came to these
24 individuals who meted out their own justice, wanted to have them isolated
25 because they were a threat to the citizens of Kljuc no matter what their
2 Q. All right. Let's go on then, given what you've just said about
3 the municipal authorities. Mr. Jurisic, we've got the log-books for the
4 Kljuc basic prosecutor's office from 1992 right through to 1995. And I'm
5 going to call them up, they're 65 ter number 26009, and we're going to
6 have to go to Sanction to have a look at these. And if you want to see a
7 paper copy, I can give you one, but the handwriting is pretty small and
8 you might need some kind of magnification, but I've got one for you if
9 you like.
10 Now, what you've got in front of you, Mr. Jurisic, is the
11 log-book for 1992 and we're going to look, first of all, at pages --
12 page 5 of this log-book which covers entries from 27 May to the
13 1st of June of 1992. And I've had a detailed look at this. First of
14 all, Mr. Jurisic, there's no criminal report submitted between the
15 1st of May and the 30th of June, so I just want to show you the type of
16 thing that did get submitted.
17 I want to go to entry number 50, it's about halfway down the page
18 and that shows that there was a criminal report filed against a Serb by
19 the name of Milan Radakovic for violation of Article 129 of the criminal
20 code in force. And I had a look at what that is, that is illicit
21 commerce. Let's go down to entry 51, that's the 30th of June, that's a
22 criminal report against two Serbs for aggravated theft. And we'll go
23 down to 52, 53, and 54 in succession. The next one dated June 30th is a
24 criminal report against a Muslim --
25 JUDGE KWON: But I'm not sure the witness can follow. Can he
1 read this?
2 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I could magnify it, but it
3 becomes -- the image becomes pixelated, but I could absolutely give him
4 the hard copy that I have beside me.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Defence have a hard copy
7 as well so that we may follow.
8 JUDGE KWON: I hope Mr. Sladojevic could teach you how to upload
9 in your e-court.
10 Shall we continue.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 Q. Now, we were at entry number 52, it's a report of an allegation
13 of fraud against a Muslim passing a bad cheque, I think. Entry number
14 53, that's another violation against a Muslim for fraud dated June 30th.
15 And the final one, entry 54, also June 30th, is a violation against a
16 Serb individual for grave offences against the safety of public
17 transport. And then when you've had a chance to look at that I want to
18 go over to the next page.
19 I want to go over to entry 57 on the next page, which is page 7
20 of 65 ter number 26009. And there you see an entry dated 16 July 1992
21 against a Muslim for a murder that happened in April of that year and he
22 sentenced to 20 years in jail. And entry number 63, dated September 4th,
23 shows a report against two Muslims for destruction of prominent
24 production facilities, in this case something belonging to Banja Luka TV.
25 And in November they were sentenced eventually to seven years in prison.
1 There were no criminal reports in this book submitted also around
2 the 10th of July, 1992. In fact, there's not a single criminal report in
3 this log-book that shows anyone was ever prosecuted in Kljuc for the
4 looting or the arson or the killings you discussed. No one was ever
5 brought to court.
6 Now, my question to you is: Being in the function that you were,
7 meeting with the people that you did - and we talked about those at the
8 beginning of your testimony yesterday - being present at
9 Municipal Assembly meetings throughout the course of the war, you would
10 know that, wouldn't you? You'd be able to confirm this, no one was ever
11 prosecuted for the torching, for the destruction, for the arson, for the
13 A. I didn't have any direct influence to wield in this, nor was I
14 able to follow from this register you've shown to me. I only know one
15 person, Radenko Kuburic, I don't know under which number I saw him, under
16 54, page 1. Page 1, number 54. As for the others against whom criminal
17 reports were filed, I can tell that all of them were Muslims. In what
18 way the prosecutor worked and what sort of offences were committed, well,
19 obviously there was arson and looting by these rogue groups. I don't
20 know what was within the police's power to do. The only thing I can
21 conclude from this is that reports were filed against one side only and
22 that's the Muslim side. It's very difficult for me to speak about the
23 specific case because I really don't have any knowledge about the people
24 or the offences committed. This was within the purview of the police to
25 attend the scenes. I wasn't able to follow that.
1 Q. All right. The system was working, though, wasn't it? That's
2 what this also shows. The prosecutor's office was working.
3 A. Well, the prosecutor's office was working, but it all depends -
4 well, the way I see it - how the police worked, how many crimes did they
5 uncover, how could they sanction this legally.
6 Q. So let's get back to the original question I asked you which you
7 didn't answer. You can confirm that there were no prosecutions for the
8 arsons, the destructions, the looting, and the killing that you talked
9 about. You would know that because of your position in the municipality;
11 A. I could only hear of individual things, things that were done by
12 individuals, but I did not receive any reports from the ground because
13 that was not within my domain of work, all of these things that were
14 happening. Because as far as I know, what was always insisted upon was
15 that these perpetrators should be prosecuted and punished. Now, what the
16 prosecutor's office did was completely apart from my line of work. Only
17 when there were some characteristic cases, when there were reports from
18 the police, if it was something big. But I really cannot give a precise
19 answer to this. I cannot say. Because there were such cases all over,
20 so I didn't even know all these perpetrators so I cannot have a relevant
21 opinion in this regard.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --
24 MS. EDGERTON:
25 Q. Just, please, Mr. Jurisic. I try not to interrupt you. Please
1 don't interrupt me. I really do try not to interrupt you.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have 65 ter number 26009 as a --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
4 MS. EDGERTON: -- Prosecution exhibit, please, Your Honours, and
5 what I would propose to do is translate the entries that we've referred
7 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President. I don't believe that
8 this witness is a proper witness who can lay a foundation for this
9 document. He's had nothing to do with the courts or the police, and as
10 we saw yesterday with the witness, without giving much detail in public
11 session, documents shown by Dr. Karadzic appeared which were not shown on
12 a log like this. So it's not -- we don't believe it's proper for the
13 Prosecution to produce this kind of document with this witness who has no
14 connection to it.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honour, the connection is not really an
17 authentication issue, which isn't an issue here. The real issue or the
18 reason why this is relevant and being tendered is that not only is the
19 witness being impeached by it, but in fact, Your Honours, the witness
20 confirmed he recognised the name of one of the individuals who was listed
21 on this document, made comments about what the document shows, and
22 specifically recalled or, pardon me, generally recalled some of the
23 circumstances of the handling of these cases from his involvement in the
24 municipal organs of that time. I think he's established an excellent
25 foundation for its admission.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view that the witness is not
3 in a position to make any comments on these items except the one he
4 identified, i.e., Radenko Kuburic. So we'll admit that part, but
5 otherwise we'll not admit the others.
6 We'll assign a number being marked for identification.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour that will be MFI P6671.
8 JUDGE KWON: And further, your purpose of impeachment has been
9 accomplished by putting the questions to the witness and hearing the
10 witness's answer.
11 Please continue.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you.
13 Q. And, Mr. Jurisic, you talked about the intentions of the
14 municipal authorities in one of your answers to me, saying that you and
15 the municipal authorities insisted that the perpetrator should be
16 prosecuted and punished. And I'd like to show you in that regard another
17 document, 1D -- pardon me, D1738.
18 Now, this, Mr. Jurisic, is a report to the 1 KK command dated
19 16 February 1993 on the situation in Kljuc, and it's based on a meeting
20 that you attended along with Mr. Banjac and Mr. Kondic and Mr. Kalabic.
21 And I'd like to go over to page 2 in both languages of this document, and
22 in B/C/S I think the paragraph is -- the relevant paragraph, you'll find
23 it at the second-to-last full paragraph from the bottom. It says,
24 talking about the events at the onset of the war, it says:
25 "Individuals and small and large groups of people began illegally
1 appropriating Muslim property in Muslim villages and hamlets during
2 combat operations in the local communes of Velagici, Sanica, Humici, and
3 Peci, and continued to do so when operations ended. This was done by
4 military personnel, members of the police, and local Serbs ..."
5 So what this document shows is that everybody knew who was doing
6 it; right? Yes or no?
7 A. I think that the police organs and the military security organs
8 that were in that area could identify those perpetrators. I don't know
9 to what extent this would have -- well, according to this report and some
10 of the things that I managed to hear in Kljuc from the people there, such
11 things did happen, yes, they did happen. Now, did the army do that? I
12 think the army had other tasks, the police too. However, certain
13 individuals, renegades, took every opportunity to get into that area that
14 was not covered and probably there was some looting.
15 Q. All right. Let's go down further in this document to page 3, the
16 second paragraph -- actually, the fifth paragraph on page 3 in both
18 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
19 Q. Now, actually, we'll start at the second paragraph. This says,
20 Mr. Jurisic -- this talks about the incidents that we're discussing --
21 second full paragraph, pardon me. This mentions that, apart from issuing
22 a decision taking appropriated property on to the state and into the
23 state coffers, it says: Nothing was done to prevent further acts of
24 unlawful appropriation of the property which had been proclaimed as state
1 And then if we skip down to paragraph number 5, it talks about
2 people driving luxury cars and tractors and trailers, and the last
3 sentence of paragraph 5 says:
4 "These and other acts are being committed in full view of those
5 who are supposed to stop and prevent them and this in full co-ordinated
6 action and co-operation of the military and civilian police."
7 So the fact is, Mr. Jurisic, completely contrary to what you say,
8 people were looting and pillaging in a climate of complete impunity and
9 there was no intention on the part of Kljuc municipal authorities to
10 punish anyone because even by February 1993 it was happening under your
11 nose and you weren't doing anything about it. That's what was actually
12 going on, wasn't it?
13 A. I just know that at all meetings, starting from the Crisis Staff
14 and the Executive Board and so on, that what was always insisted upon was
15 that police was supposed to provide protection for 24 hours a day,
16 around-the-clock, for the Muslim and Croatian population. At first there
17 was some very good results achieved there for as long as the police could
18 do it around-the-clock. I remember at Biljansko Polje immediately when
19 the operation started - and this was rather characteristic so I remember
20 the name - Bogdan Skrbic was killed during the night during a looting,
21 but the police complained and said that it was very hard to prevent. And
22 I did not deny that this kind of thing did happen, but I claim that in
23 spite of all these efforts made to have the police and army prevent the
24 looting of property this did happen nevertheless. Now, how many measures
25 were taken against these people, I cannot say. I know that there was
1 looted property that was then taken back on roads, but obviously all of
2 this could not have been prevented. I'm absolutely not denying that this
3 kind of thing did happen. I'm not denying that that happened. To what
4 extent and who fared how, I really have no insight. I heard this
5 information briefly at meetings, and the police probably knew what was
6 happening there.
7 Q. I'll just ask you -- before I ask you one more question.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'm approaching my time, which I
9 understood to be an hour and a half. And I feel I may, although I'm
10 usually quite diligent, leak over that by about another ten minutes and I
11 just wanted to foreshadow that with your leave, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has no difficulty with it. Please
14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Jurisic, you were a member of an organ that you said yourself
16 yesterday was the highest organ of authority in the municipality. It
17 would have been the simplest thing for you to ensure the rule of law was
18 enforced in Kljuc and the Crisis Staff didn't do that, did they?
19 A. Attempts to do that and to have public law and order did exist,
20 and that was done very responsibly but it could not have been carried
21 through completely. In Kljuc there were soldiers and all sorts of people
22 that nobody knew. They came from all sorts of places and to place them
23 all under control, that was very difficult. It would have suited us in
24 Kljuc the best to have public law and order, but often things did not
25 happen the way we would have wanted them to happen.
1 Q. You said now in your written evidence that you never heard anyone
2 order, plan, or investigate -- or, pardon me, instigate the expulsion of
3 non-Serbs from Kljuc. And I actually want to show you a different
4 document now in that regard.
5 MS. EDGERTON: P2641. That's not it. Let me check the number
6 that I was looking for.
7 JUDGE KWON: This is 4621 but you said 264.
8 MS. EDGERTON: I'm in complete sympathy. Transposing numbers is
9 something I do myself more often than I like.
10 Q. This document, Mr. Jurisic, is conclusions from a subregional
11 meeting of political representatives of municipalities -- the Serbian
12 municipalities of Bihac, Bosanski Petrovac, Srpska Krupa, Sanski Most,
13 Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, and Kljuc, your municipality, and it's dated
14 7 June 1992.
15 I'd like us to go over to paragraph 6, please, and that's on
16 page 2 in both languages.
17 Paragraph 6 reads that:
18 "All seven municipalities," the ones that I've just named, in
19 their "subregion agree that Muslims and Croats should move out ... until
20 a level is reached where Serbian authority can be maintained and
21 implemented on its own territory in each of these municipalities ..."
22 That's a plan to move non-Serbs from Kljuc, isn't it?
23 A. I don't know about this at all. This is the first time that I
24 see this. I'm not a member of any of that. I was not present anywhere.
25 Nobody showed us anything, and I claim with full responsibility that this
1 is the first time I see all of this. Who took part in this, I cannot
3 Q. Right. That actually doesn't answer my question, but I'll ask
4 you -- I'll move on. So I'm a bit surprised because it was your job as
5 Secretary of National Defence to approve the departure of people from
6 Kljuc. And you're saying you don't know anything about this document or
7 this plan?
8 A. I don't know of anyone adopting such a plan. I had no
9 opportunity of seeing that or being present, especially this meeting,
10 some region. I never had the opportunity of attending any such thing.
11 Q. Well, now since it was your job to approve departure, I want to
12 ask you a couple more questions. Your evidence is that -- or actually,
13 when we finished off yesterday in your testimony in chief you talked
14 about fear in the population and that's exactly right. Non-Serbs in
15 Kljuc in the summer of 1992 were scared, weren't they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Some people had lost their jobs. Some people had been arrested.
18 Some locations -- villages had been attacked. There was rampant crime,
19 in your own words, so that people weren't safe inside their own homes.
20 That would wipe away anybody's sense of safety and security, wouldn't it?
21 A. Certainly. I said yesterday and I'm saying today, these are
22 these terrible things that happen in war time, renegades, especially in
23 areas that are outside urban areas that are difficult to control. The
24 police went even during the night to secure these places. It was very
25 hard. All sorts of things happened. It would be unfair to say the
1 people did not live in fear. I can say here with full responsibility
2 that persons who were not non-Serbs also had such problems. There were
3 attacks against people, property, all kinds of revenge. So the situation
4 was highly complex.
5 Q. So let's talk about the non-Serbs for a minute. Based on what
6 you've said and what you said in your written evidence, they left because
7 they had no other real choice, did they? Because they had been subject
8 to systematic crimes, they felt they were at risk of crimes, and they
9 could have no confidence that the authorities were going to protect them,
10 that's why they left; right?
11 A. Well, people left primarily for these reasons of safety and
12 security because they saw that there was a war-time situation there, that
13 it was difficult. Also, people were jobless, they could not earn a
14 living, it was very hard to protect one's property. So people found a
15 way out by leaving that territory and finding other places where they
16 could live better. At the time I heard that there was -- well, let me
17 not call it guess-work, but let's say forecasts, namely that people of
18 Muslim ethnicity had received signals from their authorities. That's
19 what people were saying at least, that it would be best to leave all of
20 that until some other conditions were created. I don't know what that
21 was, but it became very massive.
22 Q. Now, on top of those people who -- those non-Serbs who hadn't
23 been killed and hadn't been arrested and wanted to leave who -- who came
24 to you, they had to get a permit and sign a statement that they were
25 leaving forever to get that permission; right?
1 A. This permit that we gave, that was just keeping records as to who
2 was leaving and also that such persons could have guarantees that they
3 reported to the military organ so that they could cross at all the
4 check-points that they would come across in Republika Srpska. This
5 permit was not only given to ethnic Muslims and ethnic Croats, but also
6 to ethnic Serbs if they would leave the area of the municipality --
7 Q. So --
8 A. -- we did not have people signing any kind of certificates about
9 handing over property or leaving on a permanent basis.
10 Q. So you're saying, so you're saying, that in order to get a permit
11 to leave, the non-Serbs of Kljuc didn't have to sign any documents; is
12 that what you're saying?
13 A. As far as we're concerned, I claim with full responsibility that
14 they didn't have to sign any documents whatsoever, those stating that
15 they were leaving their property or that they were leaving for good. The
16 only thing I did hear there was, I don't know, at some meetings, that at
17 the Crisis Staff of this ARK Krajina there was some document that arrived
18 from there about handing over property. But people who were trained
19 lawyers and who were well-versed said that that was impossible to carry
20 out because there was very little time. Also, the courts of law couldn't
21 deal with that and just to take one's word for that wouldn't mean a
22 thing. It just needed -- it was just necessary to keep records so that
23 the procedure would be very short and the people could have no problems
24 when going through check-points that were under police control and there
25 were quite a few of those because each and every municipality had them.
1 Q. So based on what you say, can I understand that so long as
2 non-Serbs said that they were leaving forever or giving their property to
3 the municipality, they were allowed to go; is that right?
4 A. Nobody asked them, as far as we were concerned, either to hand
5 over their property or to leave on a permanent basis. They wanted to
6 leave. Where they would go, how long they would stay, whatever. As for
7 property, as far as I know, there were possibilities of exchanges. I
8 know that people made these fictitious contracts. They wanted their
9 property to be guarded. I know there were exchanges for houses along the
10 seacoast, Pag and other places. However, the important thing for us was
11 to know whether people were going and whether their property was
12 remaining there so that we could protect it.
13 Q. Let's just have a look at one document and then I'll close,
14 that's P3462.
15 Right. Mr. Jurisic, this is a decision of the Kljuc
16 War Presidency that you were a member of of 30 July 1992 and this says,
17 under Article 1 that:
18 "... families and persons who issue a statement to the
19 appropriate organ ... declaring that they are moving permanently from the
20 territory of ... the municipality, shall be permitted to leave ..."
21 And if you go on to Article 2, that says if they haven't signed
22 their property over to the municipality or exchanged it with Serbs within
23 three months of leaving, the municipality is going to take it away
24 anyway. So --
25 MS. EDGERTON: And we can go over actually to the second page of
1 the document in both languages. Article -- sorry, we can stay on page 1
2 in B/C/S -- no, we are on the right page in B/C/S.
3 Q. Article 7 of this document says:
4 "On the basis of a state of voluntary moving ... from the
5 municipality or a legally valid contract," an exchange contract, "the
6 National Defence Secretariat," that's you, "shall grant ... agreement to
7 leave ... Kljuc ..."
8 So this is a contemporaneous document that says exactly what you
9 have just denied to us. People had to sign a statement, non-Serbs had to
10 sign a statement that they were leaving forever and give their property
11 to the municipality. There was nothing voluntary about it, wasn't there?
12 A. I repeat, as far as we were concerned, we did not ask for any
13 kind of proof about the hand-over of property or anything else. Any
14 citizen who said they wanted to move out would receive this permit in
15 order to be able to cross the check-points. We were not authorised to
16 carry out any kind of signing about the hand-over of somebody's property
17 or an exchange or there was no time-limitation. We would issue permits
18 to move outside of the municipality to Serbs as well who were leaving and
19 going to some other municipality, so that we would know where they were
21 We didn't ask for any certificates, we didn't receive any, I
22 don't know who could have asked for such a certificate. All I'm saying
23 is that if somebody came to the Crisis Staff to ask that, that was so.
24 We just wanted to have a record of all the property so that we would know
25 how many people left so that we could preserve what we could. In more
1 urban areas such as Kljuc and Sanica, this property to a great extent was
2 preserved, but there was no torching or any major destruction of the
3 buildings. There was more destruction of buildings in the rural, village
5 I am repeating this. I cannot say anything else. We -- there
6 was no certificate involved. A person would come, say: I'm going to
7 such and such a place, and we would issue a permit so that he would be
8 free to move. It was up to him what he would do with his house. We just
9 wanted to have a record that he handed over the property or that he was
10 leaving it behind or that he exchanged it, although that was not the
11 topic of our work, regardless of what he wrote. It does not have to --
12 it doesn't have to mean that the people in the Presidency and in the
13 Crisis Staff knew the regulations very well and were aware of what they
14 had to do.
15 Q. And have we just heard your defence to the allegations of forced
16 transfer and deportation that your facing in front of the state court in
17 Bosnia in the investigation against you? Is that your defence?
18 A. I don't know. I did not take part in any forcible transfer or in
19 any decisions on that matter. That was not my job by far, and that is
20 something that I would not have wished to have done anyway.
21 Q. Nothing further. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: Could this document remain in the e-court.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.
25 Good morning to everyone.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jurisic, good morning.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Are you able to tell us if you know the signature of the late
5 Jovo Banjac and is this his signature?
6 A. Yes, I do recognise his signature, but I don't see where you are
7 showing it to me.
8 Q. It's the right half of the screen in Serbian.
9 A. Oh, you mean this document that we're seeing right now, that the
10 Madam Prosecutor was reading from to me just now?
11 Q. Yes. But I'm just pausing between question and answer and I
12 kindly ask you that you do the same.
13 JUDGE KWON: Shall we zoom in. Just the signature part.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Did you ever see Banjac's signature and is this it?
16 A. I saw it a number of times, but this is very indistinct. I
17 cannot really see it very well or it's a bad copy, but from what I can
18 see this is not his. I've already seen this -- I've already seen his
19 characteristic JB in some documents and this is a little bit -- I don't
20 know. I'm not certain.
21 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell us about the register where you
22 were shown that the criminal charges and acts from January, February,
23 March were submitted at that time? When did the Velagici crime actually
24 take place?
25 A. The crime in Velagici occurred on the 28th of September -- the
1 28th of June, in 1992.
2 Q. The end of June or May. And when would this then be expected to
3 be recorded in the register, then, if we're looking at the cases from
5 A. I don't understand. How what should be?
6 Q. All right. I withdraw the question. Tell me, are you aware that
7 proceedings were suspended and that the charges were dropped?
8 A. Of the perpetrators?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. No, I'm not aware that the charges were dropped or that it was
11 suspended. I received some information later that those guys who
12 committed the deed in Velagici were interviewed at the military
13 prosecutor's office in Banja Luka and that they were released to go to
14 the war unit. There were such requests like that and that the actual
15 court proceedings would continue when conditions for that were created,
16 because all the required statements were actually collected or taken by
17 the military prosecutor's office.
18 Q. All right. Thank you. Mr. Jurisic, the Muslims who remained in
19 Kljuc, did they feel safe enough to come to the police and to report any
20 crimes that they were victims of?
21 A. From what I could see, I mostly saw people who lived in Kljuc and
22 its environs, and most of them remained in the areas around Kljuc. There
23 was some five or six suburban areas that belonged to Kljuc, and those
24 people felt more comfortable and more at ease. I remember that they
25 reported even minor details, robberies, attempts, and -- until I saw this
1 in these proceedings here, I was surprised because I thought that that
2 area was very well -- very nicely preserved from destruction and killing
3 and anything else like that. And I think that people were in contact
4 every day in merchants' shops, then they would come back, I would see
5 them at the market on Saturday, and the organs that were functioning were
6 coming to work normally. Particularly where I was, I think the doors
7 were open to all the citizens of Kljuc, just like that -- it was before
8 the war. There were people in Kljuc who were -- who stayed behind,
9 particularly prominent people who were there throughout the war. They
10 socialised with their mates who were there, their colleagues from work,
11 and so on and so forth.
12 Q. When you say more prominent people, who do you mean? Of which
13 ethnicity were these people?
14 A. What I meant to say was more prominent people as we are prone to
15 say today, these were people whom I knew from political life, public life
16 before the war. There were quite a few of them. And as opposed to some
17 others who might have a different opinion on that, regardless of how much
18 somebody would agree with me or disagree with me, these more prominent
19 people in Kljuc were very tolerant, very conciliatory, and they did
20 everything to overcome all the things that were not all right because
21 they knew the horrors of war. And I met these war -- these people
22 throughout the war, during the time that I was there. I could even name
23 these people if necessary. I could mention the names of people who
24 stayed there.
25 Q. Are you able to tell us of which ethnicity these people were?
1 This is what I wanted to know.
2 A. I am speaking exclusively of members of the Muslim ethnic group.
3 There were some Croats as well, but they were not so many of them because
4 before the war, Kljuc had under 1 per cent of such citizens. As for the
5 Muslims, there was just a difference of 1 per cent or something like that
6 there, so that a large number of people stayed in Kljuc. They even
7 remained after we actually all moved out in 1995.
8 Q. Thank you. These villages near the town, the Muslim villages
9 that were preserved, were there any paramilitary units there and was
10 there any fighting there?
11 A. I didn't notice any fighting in those villages. Perhaps some
12 individuals went somewhere towards Pudin Han or somewhere else, but there
13 was no attack on the town, no problems at all. These houses were all
14 mixed together, Muslim and Serb houses. There were no incidents, and
15 ultimately I think that people protected one another, as was right, and
16 prevented from any major damage being inflicted on anyone. And even
17 today when I pass through Kljuc, I see that those houses are practically
18 untouched as if there had been no war. You could notice some things in
19 odd places, but practically it was all untouched.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness 1D2720.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. We don't have a translation, so I would kindly ask you to tell
24 the Trial Chamber what this is briefly and who is reporting whom to the
25 police. 27020. This is the 30th of December, 1992. Are you able to
1 tell us who is the person who is submitting the complaint and can you
2 read the typewritten part where it says what the complaint actually is?
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
4 Let's collapse this document. As Defence objected to the
5 admitting of log-book of Prosecutor's document and then put something --
6 another criminal report to the witness.
7 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Exactly why I stood on my feet, Your Honours, and
9 on top of that incredibly leading.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, could you put your question, Mr. Karadzic, to
11 the witness first.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 24, line 5, I asked whether
13 Muslims were free to report to the police any crimes committed against
14 them. And the answer starts on line 8 onwards. And I just wanted to
15 show some documents as examples of the things that were reported to the
16 police by the Muslim citizens. Even Serbs reported Serbs, but I don't
17 know if I'm going to show that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Before putting the question or putting the document,
19 why don't you ask the witness whether he remembers these individuals?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I don't know whether
21 he can know each individual person. These people came to the public
22 security station, not to him, but he knows about this occurring.
23 JUDGE KWON: You will have another proper opportunity to tender
24 those documents through proper witnesses. I don't think that this
25 witness is capable of commenting on this document. Spend your time more
1 efficiently. It's up to you how to use your time, but as I expressed our
2 concerns, please bear that in mind.
3 Please continue.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then that witness would have
5 to be me because there is no other witness.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Jurisic, the Prosecution stated that Serb crimes against
8 Muslims were ignored. Do you stand by your assertion that this is not
9 correct and that such crimes were also investigated?
10 A. I stand by the assertion that crimes were investigated and
11 reported. However, in the municipality we were not satisfied with all
12 that was done. We felt that more could have been done because later,
13 regardless of the war and the way this was manifested, any attack on
14 property or house especially in places bordering on Kljuc could have been
15 reported. The police was out in those villages and hamlets and houses
16 very frequently, looking into it. I remember that there were criminal
17 reports, minor theft, embezzlement in Kljuc. I would like to emphasise
18 that there were no excesses in Kljuc, no actions of that kind. There
19 were very few killings, nobody was detained. So I think it was an
20 example in the whole region in comparison to other towns.
21 Q. And what was the situation in the municipality? Did you have
22 enough fighters and other things and where exactly where your fighters?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the last
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The interpreters didn't hear the
1 last sentence of your question.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Where were the fighters of the Kljuc municipality? Was there
4 enough manpower in Kljuc sufficient to provide security for all?
5 A. We were engaged on three fairly large fronts. Our forces were
6 drawn out. There was the Kupres front, where we gave a battalion to the
7 7th Kupres Brigade in August 1992. The complete brigade of the
8 17th Light Infantry Brigade went to the Jajce front. The engineering
9 regiment that we also had to man was engaged at Laniste, it went from
10 unit to unit where it was supposed to carry out its tasks. However,
11 because of a shortage of men at the lines, a lot of civilian police
12 officers were engaged in these war units, combat units, so that there
13 wasn't always a sufficient number of policemen that could efficiently
14 keep everything under control.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter 18431,
17 please. 18431. I'm probably going to tender these criminal reports from
18 the bar table.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Can you look at this, please. This is the 22nd of August, 1992,
21 it's already the War Presidency, and it says that the combat
22 operations around Kljuc -- actually, due to the war operations linked to
23 the Jajce municipality, the security situation in the area of Kljuc
24 municipality has been significantly worsened. And then in the next
25 paragraph it says:
1 "A large number of people from the area of Kljuc municipality
2 have been engaged in the war units, so the area of the municipality has
3 been literally unprotected from all sorts of incidents that could arise
4 at any given moment. We are absolutely unable to provide for protection
5 to any prisoner of war," and so on and so forth.
6 So how did this situation reflect as far as you were concerned --
7 JUDGE KWON: Please read slow.
8 Yes, please answer the question.
9 No, I told Mr. Karadzic to read slow when he reads from the
10 document. Now can you answer the question?
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. How did this, what was read in this paragraph, correspond to what
13 you knew about the security situation and the security forces that was
14 supposed to provide security?
15 A. I know that the bulk of the police and military forces were
16 engaged in surrounding fronts, and if this is the estimate of the
17 military police and the army that this was insufficient, then I am really
18 not up to agreeing or disagreeing. I know that they were absent, a large
19 number of people. But as for whether this number was sufficient to keep
20 everything under control, that is up to the authorised organs to make
21 that determination. But I think that the forces were stretched thin at
22 the fronts.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll accept it.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4365, Your Honour.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Jurisic, yesterday you were asked not to say reproachfully
5 why you did this and that in the area of defence. Can you tell us what
6 sort of powers the municipality had when it came to defence and what did
7 you do, if you did anything, that went beyond the remits of the law?
8 A. In view of the developments in Bosnia and the petition that
9 happened, everybody had to do what the majority of the population in a
10 given area asked them to do, where you had an area with a Serb majority
11 or a Muslim majority, you had to keep that in mind. So whatever you did,
12 you were in trouble. One side would insist on you enforcing the law and
13 the other on you not doing exactly that. It was such a situation that no
14 matter who was involved, whether they were president of the republic,
15 whether they were senior officials, everybody felt that they could do
16 things that were above and beyond the law.
17 In the process of mobilisation and the duties incumbent on the
18 Secretariat for National Defence, difficulties began to arise in the
19 month of January when Republika Srpska was proclaimed and when in March
20 the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared. These difficulties
21 came to a head in the month of June, and when it came to mobilising the
22 Territorial Defence we had summoned the entire detachment and the
23 response was good. However, nothing could be done further because the
24 detachment split along the ethnic lines and was dysfunctional. We had
25 the impression that people were somehow advised not to respond to our
1 call-ups. Mr. Asim Egrlic, an SDA official who was also president of the
2 Executive Board, when he was testifying in Sarajevo on one occasion, he
3 confessed that, in September of 1991, they received a message from the
4 head office of the SDA in Sarajevo not to respond to the call-ups. So we
5 were in a paradoxical situation. If the Secretariat for National Defence
6 was the structure that was supposed to have at its disposal all the
7 conscripts, we were in such a situation where the Muslims, in fact,
8 engaged in the recruitment process for the TO and the reserve force of
9 the police but without responding to our call-ups.
10 All of this led us into great difficulties for both sides. We
11 were walking along a very thin line between two sides or else we could
12 side by one of the sides. We had the legislation in force, the JNA
13 wasn't our armed force, and for as long as it was there we respected it.
14 When the VRS was set up, we sided with that --
15 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: Did you know what the official
16 insignia was in December of 1992 of our forces?
17 A. Our forces?
18 Q. The army and the police.
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness's
22 JUDGE KWON: What was your answer, Mr. Jurisic? Could you repeat
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was I aware of the insignia?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was aware of the insignia
2 because I studied international laws of war, which said that in order for
3 a soldier to have that status, he has to wear a uniform with clearly
4 displayed insignia, he has to carry weapons, and he has to have a
5 military commander above him, that's the army. Otherwise, it's not an
6 army, it's just various groups. The insignia is there to show his
7 membership, the weapons to -- for him to fight with, and the commander
8 for him to know what to do.
9 JUDGE KWON: Did you touch upon this issue, insignia?
10 MS. EDGERTON: No, not at all.
11 JUDGE KWON: How does this arise from the cross-examination,
12 Mr. Karadzic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am about to show the
14 witness, because the witness said that this was something that wasn't
15 done by the regular forces, I was about to ask him what the insignia
16 mentioned in the report refers to. I cannot lead the witness, so I have
17 to lay a foundation and the foundation is in the cross-examination where
18 it was put to the witness that it was done by the regular forces, whereas
19 the witness said that the regular forces were there to protect all the
20 citizens alike.
21 JUDGE KWON: It's up to you how to spend your time again. But if
22 the witness said it was done by the regular forces, is it not sufficient?
23 We'll take a break for half an hour. We'll continue at 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can the witness be shown 1D27020 -- 022.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately we don't have a
6 translation yet because I didn't know these things would be contested.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. But I'll ask you to delve into this document. On the
9 8th of December, 1992, the public security station attended a scene where
10 a robbery was committed against Ifeta Sadikovic, Fadil's wife, from
11 Krasulje. What is Ifeta's ethnicity?
12 A. Muslim.
13 Q. Thank you. As far as you're concerned, can you tell us how did
14 it happen that those from Hripavci and Krasulje came to be temporarily
15 residing in Kljuc? Can you tell us in the capacity that you had as the
16 head of the Secretariat for National Defence.
17 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure where you're heading.
18 Let's collapse this document.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies -- [In English] I
20 can tell it in English if you ask witness to remove headphones.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, if you could do that. Could you kindly take
22 off your headphones, please, Mr. Jurisic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you hear us, Mr. Jurisic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, but I wasn't hearing
25 the interpretation of what the gentleman was saying.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, if you could remove your headphones, please.
2 Yes, Ms. Edgerton first.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I just -- I rose because I had no idea what was
4 happening, Your Honours. An untranslated document that was put to the
5 witness in a leading way and I just think when we go too far down this
6 road, we're on the edge of Dr. Karadzic actually manipulating the
7 evidence in re-direct examination.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: Excellencies, first from this document it appears
10 that the police went out on the terrain of the crime scene to investigate
11 a heavy robbery against Muslim citizens. Then it is obvious that the
12 civilians from the -- those villages are moved to the very city under the
13 Serbian control. And finally, in the middle it said that the Muslims
14 described the guys who robbed them and threatened them, so and so, and
15 said that the emblem on their own beret was very big and not usual. And
16 it shows what was alleged by the Prosecution that the people suffered.
17 We see from whom they suffered and what was the position of the
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you put your question to the witness
21 without putting -- without showing the document?
22 Mr. Jurisic, thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Jurisic, what became of the civilians in the villages where
1 there was fighting going on?
2 A. Which villages are you referring to?
3 Q. Well, say Krasulje, Hripavci, and in general in the villages
4 where there was fighting going on, what became of the civilians, where
5 were they put up if they did not remain in these villages?
6 A. I have no idea. I think they were relocated to safer areas,
7 especially in the village of Krasulje where there was a mopping-up
8 operation. According to a statement in Sarajevo, a great many of them
9 withdraw to a small hill, Galaja, together with others from Sanski Most.
10 So the question was raised of whether they should continue their journey
11 on to Bihac or return to Krasulje. When the mopping-up activities were
12 over, according to what one Muslim stated before the court in Sarajevo,
13 half of them returned to Krasulje. So people would seek refuge
14 temporarily for the duration of the fighting or the mopping-up activities
15 which were taking place, after which they would return home.
16 Q. The transcript says in line 17 that -- it says that you had no
17 idea. Did you say that you had no idea or according to what you know?
18 A. What do I have no idea of?
19 Q. Of where the civilians were seeking refuge.
20 A. I don't recall this question at all.
21 Q. Thank you. If the victims would describe their perpetrators as
22 having a large emblem on their cap quite untypical, would that have been
23 an emblem of the regular Serb forces?
24 A. They were not members of the regular Serb forces. Nobody could
25 identify them, either by their uniform or by anything else. Simply put,
1 they were people - I don't know how to put it - the dogs of war who were
2 roaming the area in search of booty and targeting victims. There were
3 attempts to get a grip on them to put them under control of the forces
4 which had a command of their own and had discipline.
5 Q. Thank you. If a perpetrator would threaten a victim that nobody
6 should know of what happened or else that person would be killed, what
7 was the intention behind this, then, to conceal this from whom?
8 A. I'm not sure what you're talking about, conceal from whom. I
9 wasn't involved in that. I suppose there were different cases of
10 blackmail, so those who fell victim to looting would conceal that and be
11 silent on the matter because there were threats made and these threats
12 could be made after misdeeds were perpetrated that fell foul of the law.
13 Q. What was the position of the authorities when it came to the
14 destruction of Muslim buildings such as mosques, et cetera?
15 A. As far as I know, the position was to do everything to preserve
16 these buildings. However, there were incidents happening at night,
17 things that were beyond control, but the destruction was inflicted in
18 such a way as to make it quite clear to those who were privy to
19 explosives that these were deeds of amateurs. It was done
20 unprofessionally, so the conclusion could be drawn that these were
21 riotous groups who wanted to clear the terrain for their own ulterior
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown
25 65 ter 893. [In English] There should be a translation.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Have a look on your right-hand side, the 1st of February, 1993,
3 the destruction of a mosque. The Prosecutor requested that an action be
4 taken in accordance with the law.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. This is an on-site investigation and the description of the site
8 says that the surroundings buildings were damaged as well as the cellar.
9 Is this what you were talking about, that they would be using large
10 amounts of explosives in an unprofessional way?
11 A. Well, I know that when the mosque in Kljuc was destroyed, Serbs
12 have gone through -- had gone through a great deal of fear. During the
13 explosion, pieces of debris were thrown several hundred metres around.
14 The glass panes on the surrounding buildings were smashed. There were
15 people residing in the vicinity. There were some industrial sheds there
16 that were destroyed. The area was populated by both the Serbs and
17 Muslims and they were in fear of their lives because there was great
18 destruction. And as I said, none of the windows on the buildings
19 surrounding the area were left intact. That was the scale of the
20 explosion. I know that an investigation had to be launched against
21 unidentified perpetrators and, to the best of my knowledge, the
22 perpetrators were never identified.
23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, did you touch upon this issue?
24 MS. EDGERTON: The destruction of the mosque? No, not at all.
25 And the whole -- this whole last couple of paragraphs of transcript could
1 have been dealt with without showing the witness the document in any
3 JUDGE KWON: How does this arise from the cross-examination,
4 Mr. Karadzic?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What the witness said was being
6 challenged, namely, that all citizens were protected equally irrespective
7 of religious or ethnic affiliation. What was stated was that there were
8 no criminal reports filed in cases when Muslims were victims. So this is
9 a general challenge to this witness's statement and this is proof that
10 that is wrong. On page 15, for example, there is a challenge regarding
11 the impartiality of the authorities in terms of protection and
12 prosecution of cases where Muslims were the victims. Page 17 speaks of
13 the fear of Muslims, and now we hear that Serbs were afraid too.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, Excellencies, on
16 page 17 --
17 JUDGE KWON: No -- no --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- in line 20 to 25 --
19 JUDGE KWON: I said "no," Mr. Karadzic.
20 In terms of general challenge, the Chamber will allow the
22 But, Mr. Robinson, I'm forming the impression that Mr. Karadzic
23 is going to use or exhaust 325 hours before he reaches his testimony.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, actually we are calculating
25 it and we are leaving 16 hours for his testimony, so he'll have to be
1 disciplined in order to accomplish that, but that's what we're heading
3 And if I could also say that I think your ruling that you've just
4 made was correct. But I do think that given the witness's lack of
5 knowledge about the investigative procedures in Kljuc and about what the
6 police did, that it would have been better for Dr. Karadzic to tender
7 these documents through the bar table because I don't think the witness
8 is in a position to add much and it is not a very good use of our time.
9 But anyway, he's free -- and I think what he's doing is legally correct,
10 and so we appreciate that you're willing to allow him to do that and hope
11 that it will still result in him having enough time to give his
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
14 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 I'd like to tender this document.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And a general question to you, Mr. Jurisic: Are you aware of a
19 single case of a crime committed against a Muslim or a Croat that was
20 hushed up by the authorities or where the authorities rejected the case,
21 did not offer any protection?
22 A. I already said that this was not within my line of work but
23 everything that happened that was illegal and unlawful had to be
24 punished. The court of law was supposed to work, the police as well.
25 And I remember once that Mr. Franjo Komarica, the bishop of Banja Luka,
1 directly addressed the president of the Municipal Assembly, Jovo Banjac,
2 asking for the remaining Croats in Kljuc to be protected as well as their
3 Catholic church. In spite of all of these things that were done, later
4 on -- well, the church was of a very light construction and it was easy
5 to torch. So it seems that ultimately some kind of groups of hooligans
6 torched it after all. The authorities never wanted anything like that to
7 happen because this disturbed the Serb and Croat and Muslim population
8 when things like that happened. This is something that people were not
9 used to. It was only the older people who were afraid, but those from
10 the 1950s and 1960s were not familiar with any such thing.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been admitted?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4366, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: And, if I may, I would just like to foreshadow
17 that if Dr. Karadzic continues down this route, I'm going to be asking
18 the Court to renew our tender of the log-books that were previously
20 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Yesterday, page 86 of yesterday's transcript, it was suggested to
24 you that -- actually, I'm going to read it out exactly and then it's
25 going to be interpreted to you.
1 [In English] "What you said, Mr. Jurisic, was that the action
2 taken up until the 27th of May, 1992, effectively were pursuant to
3 instructions from the top political leaders of the Serbian people; isn't
4 that right?
5 "A. We received all of this that had to do with mobilisation.
6 We received all of that from the command of the military district of
7 Banja Luka." And so on and so on.
8 [Interpretation] Today do you stand by that, that you were
9 subordinated to the military district of Banja Luka and that you received
10 orders from them, not from Pale?
11 A. Can I just say in two words, that we as the municipal
12 authorities, while the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina functioned,
13 absolutely, we were linked to the republican Secretariat for
14 National Defence, which later after the multi-party elections became part
15 of the Ministry of Defence. So we had this two-way communication.
16 As for all military affairs, we were never directly linked to the
17 secretariat or the ministry; rather, we had a stop in between and that
18 was the command of the military district and it roughly corresponded to
19 the then-area of responsibility of a corps. When the Ministry of Defence
20 was established we remained linked to the command of the military
21 district. So all mobilisation, recruitment, manning of the armed forces,
22 all of these things we received from the military district from
23 Banja Luka. We did not receive anything from Pale at the time, but we
24 could never be directly linked in terms of mobilisation and military
25 matters directly to the highest republic organ.
1 After this reorganisation, we were told that from the
2 1st of July, 1992, we would belong to the secretariat of the Ministry of
3 Defence that was established at the level of the corps. And then the
4 command of the military district ceased to exist in Banja Luka and two
5 secretariats were formed. The secretariat in Banja Luka that was in the
6 area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps, that was the 5th Corps
7 until then, the 5th Corps of the JNA. However, since the JNA had ceased
8 to exist, well, then our municipality of Kljuc came to belong to the
9 secretariat of the Ministry of Defence in Drvar that covered
10 12 municipalities in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps,
11 so that was the way things were.
12 We never had these direct links. We had links with the republic
13 organ only as far as regulations were concerned, civilian protection, the
14 service for surveillance, and so on.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. The military part was there -- let me just say one more thing.
17 The Ministry of Defence or previously the Secretariat for
18 National Defence, we never received any instructions directly from them
19 until 1991, when these powers became intertwined. And then from the
20 command of military district we were told that we should send recruits,
21 conscripts to the army. And then from Sarajevo, from the ministry, they
22 send certain telegrams stating that no such persons should be sent and
23 that is when this intertwining took place. When this happened it was for
24 the first time --
25 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
1 What were the links, what was the communication between Kljuc and
2 the centre of the republic, or rather, the government in Pale?
3 A. Well, when the corridor was cut off, it was a generally known
4 thing that all kinds of communication ceased to exist. There were no
5 communications in terms of railways, roads, et cetera. So until the end
6 of June/beginning of July, we did not have any communication until the
7 corridor was reinstated.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, two things. I would be able to make my
9 objections in a more timely fashion if Dr. Karadzic and the witness spoke
10 more slowly. And second, there's no way I dealt with anything related to
11 communication in the cross-examination; that's squarely outside of the
13 JUDGE KWON: I agree, Ms. Edgerton.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to express my disagreement.
15 It says here that you received instructions, page 86 yesterday --
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the communication issue was not
18 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, if I'm recollecting it correctly,
19 she did ask questions concerning whether they were following the
20 instructions of the republican authorities, which would go directly to
21 the issue of communication.
22 JUDGE KWON: And he confirmed. And then -- I will consult my
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Please move on to another topic, Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Jurisic, until when did you have a
4 Crisis Staff? When did it grow into the War Presidency?
5 A. I cannot give you the exact date, but I think it was the month of
6 August, 1992.
7 Q. Thank you. And did you receive my decision of the 31st of May
8 abolishing the Crisis Staffs? P2608, that's the number for the
10 A. I cannot confirm that directly. I do not recall that date,
11 whether it was then or some other time. There were so many dates, so
12 many things happened. Without looking at documents, it's very hard for a
13 person to be able to say anything. It was the president of the
14 Crisis Staff, the president of the Municipal Assembly that knew that the
16 Q. Thank you. Also what was shown here was that you attended
17 certain meetings and you didn't know exactly what these meetings were.
18 Tell me, if there were a rally of citizens from a local commune, if they
19 wanted to be informed about certain preparations, who would they invite
20 from the Assembly?
21 A. By the very nature of things, I think they'd invite somebody from
22 the military, the Ministry of Defence, the police. These were the people
23 who were in charge of that structure.
24 Q. And if the military was not there, who would they ask out of the
25 civilian authorities?
1 A. Then the president of the Assembly, the president of the
2 Executive Board, the commander of the police, the public security
3 station. That would be it.
4 Q. Who was secretary of the Secretariat of National Defence?
5 A. I was.
6 Q. Thank you. I have to ask you once again, did you receive after
7 the war broke out any instructions from Pale in relation to anything?
8 A. As far as defence was concerned, we did not. The first time I
9 had direct communication regarding defence was with Drvar, August 1992.
10 I came across General Subotic. He was minister of defence and I saw him
11 there and I saw Minister Sajic who was minister of national defence in
12 the AR Krajina over there, when they gave us the Law on Defence and the
13 Law on the Army and when they told us that our organisation that we had
14 had until then, the command of the military district in Banja Luka, that
15 then -- from then onwards it would be the Secretariat for National
16 Defence and that we in the municipality had no further functions, that we
17 could not be in any structures, so that we could fully devote ourselves
18 to defence matters because in some municipalities there were certain
19 challenges. The municipal authorities did not accept what the army and
20 the Ministry of Defence were asking for, so they tried to have as much
21 independence as possible so the people could decide on the basis of
23 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us in the briefest possible
24 terms during your testimony -- actually, did you have the same position
25 when you testified then as you have today?
1 A. I always have the same position and the same opinion. I did what
2 I did and I always stand by that at any level, at any trial, before any
3 court. I cannot say anything that I do not know --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
5 witness's answer.
6 JUDGE KWON: Witness and Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters did not
7 hear the end of the witness's answer. Could you repeat it.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You said: "I cannot say anything that I do not know."
10 A. At each trial before each court, during each questioning or when
11 I provide a statement, I say only what I know, what I saw, and about
12 which I'm 100 per cent certain. If something happens like a different
13 word that I would use, perhaps a different word, that is not any change
14 in my position. But simply, a person as a human being is not a tape
15 recorder to be able to be repeat word for word what he said at an earlier
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness
19 65 ter 26008. English page 3, Serbian 12.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We will read it here. It's there in the Serbian and in the
22 English. You say this:
23 "I think that on the 14th of May, the then Assembly" --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please have a reference.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, could you tell the interpreters where
1 you are reading from.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the main answer of the
3 witness in the Serbian at the bottom of the page. In the English it's:
4 "I am talking about the Assembly session ..."
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You say here:
7 "I am thinking about the Assembly session in Banja Luka. Since
8 that communication was already difficult at that time, when we received
9 that in writing ..." and so on and so forth.
10 Does that correspond to what you -- today?
11 A. I answered about that at the trial of Odanovic Marko before the
12 BH court in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was his witness, and when I was saying
13 that, I just had one dilemma and you can see that here in this document,
14 that I said that this was on the 12th or on the 14th of January -- May.
15 However, after I checked and I determined that it was exactly on the
16 12th of May when a decision of the Assembly of the Serbian Republic -- as
17 a result of which the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew from Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina and the Army of Republika Srpska was formed then. And the
19 Territorial Defence did not exist from that time on formally but was
20 transformed into the Army of the Serbian Republic, so that our
21 detachment, which at that time was mobilised, it was no longer --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch what the witness
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it was part of the 30th Division
25 which was headquartered in --
1 JUDGE KWON: No, no. Witness, we are not able to follow you.
2 Could you repeat when from the -- where you said: Army of the
3 Serbian Republic formed from something, yes. So:
4 "... Territorial Defence did not exist from that time on formally
5 but was transformed into the Army of the Serbian Republic ..."
6 Could you repeat from there.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. On the
8 12th of May, 1992, by a decision of the Assembly of the Serbian Republic,
9 the Territorial Defence ceased to exist because a decision was reached
10 that the Yugoslav People's Army should withdraw from the area of Bosnia
11 and Herzegovina. And since with the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People's
12 Army the Territorial Defence was formed and the detachment of the
13 Territorial Defence in Kljuc which was mobilised at that time became part
14 of the army and became one of the battalions. I don't know exactly the
15 number of the battalion, but it became part of the 30th Division which
16 had its seat in a small barracks, Kula near Mrkonjic Grad.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 23.
20 Unfortunately, this page has not been translated, but I'm only going to
21 read two lines. This is the Serbian page 23.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Can I please ask you -- actually, I'm going to read your answer:
24 "Well, I think he was -- all of that perhaps went through at a
25 time when communication was really the most difficult that it ever had
2 Do you still stand by this statement of yours that this was the
3 time --
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] --
6 Q. -- when the communications were proceeding with the most
7 difficulty ever?
8 JUDGE KWON: I told you to move on from the topic -- issue of
9 communication. You are not listening to the Chamber's instruction. Move
10 on to another topic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. On page 20 today you were asked in reference to P3462 about that
14 text by Mr. Banjac, whose signature I asked you about. Are you able to
15 tell us what the rights of the municipality were -- or actually, the
16 defence ministry in relation to the disposal of movable and immovable
17 property during the war and does that disposition mean actually taking
18 over property rights?
19 A. Taking over or assuming property rights, according to the Law on
20 All People's Defence --
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: I think that's a leading question. I think the
23 answer's been suggested to the witness.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, can you assist us on this question?
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Judge Baird. I think the last -- after "and"
2 made it suggestive.
3 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes.
4 MR. ROBINSON: If he could ask the question without that part, it
5 would be proper.
6 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes, I agree.
7 JUDGE KWON: Will you ask the question again?
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Jurisic, did the municipality have any rights or the defence
10 have any rights to dispose with property during war time?
11 A. The municipality and the Secretariat for the National Defence
12 according by law has the right to dispose with all human and material
13 resources which can contribute to the defence of the country. Such
14 facilities, properties, articles are never confiscated on a permanent
15 basis, but are only confiscated for the needs of the army. If the person
16 from whom the property was confiscated keeps the documents indicating
17 that he handed over such property, proceedings are conducted after the
18 war or after the action is completed when the state is obliged to restore
19 the property. And if it is destroyed, it should pay compensation;
20 otherwise, it should return the property if it is unharmed.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, and I
23 would like to tender page 3 from this document, English page 3, Serbian
24 page 12.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
1 MS. EDGERTON: No objection.
2 JUDGE KWON: Okay. We'll receive it.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4367, Your Honours.
4 MS. EDGERTON: And with your leave, Your Honours, I would like to
5 put one document to the witness on the question that Dr. Karadzic asked
6 him, of whether a single case -- whether he was aware of a single case of
7 crime against a non-Serb that was hushed up.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed.
9 Further Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
10 Q. Mr. Jurisic, you just heard what I asked the Judges of this
11 Chamber, and I'll remind you of Dr. Karadzic's question again. At
12 page 40 of today's temporary transcript, he asked you:
13 "Are you aware of a single case of a crime committed against a
14 Muslim or Croat that was hushed up by the authorities or whether the
15 authorities rejected the case and didn't offer any protection?"
16 And you gave a lengthy answer that was effectively: They never
17 hushed things up. That's what you were saying, isn't it? And if you
18 don't remember your answer, I can read it to you.
19 A. No need for you to read my answer back to me. All I would like
20 to ask you is to tell me or to re-phrase that term "hush up." How do you
21 understand that?
22 Q. I am asking you the same question Dr. Karadzic gave you in the
23 words he used. The meaning was clear to you obviously in your mind when
24 you gave him a lengthy answer. Your evidence is: There was never any
25 crime committed against Muslims or Croats that were hushed up by the
1 authorities or where the authorities rejected the case and didn't offer
2 any protection. That was your evidence; right?
3 A. I can answer this differently now, but much more specifically. I
4 said that everything that was known, that was reported, the authorities
5 did not ignore that. However, when I was shown everything that was going
6 on, that was the first time that I found out what was going on. I don't
7 know if the authorities knew about it or not. It's difficult to know
8 everything that goes on in the municipality. I did state categorically
9 that the authorities did respond to all of that, but perhaps they did
10 not. When it was presented to me in Sarajevo exactly what was going on,
11 I behaved as if I didn't even live in Kljuc and didn't know what was
12 going on. It was difficult to know what was going on. As for those
13 things that were going on, it's very difficult to establish whether there
14 was any action on the basis of that or not. I doubt that there was
15 enough time to deal with everything and to process everything. There
16 were many things happening all around.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that we did not interpret
18 the sentence before this one.
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. Mr. Jurisic, the interpreters missed what you said after you
21 said: "I doubt that there was enough time to deal with everything and to
22 process everything." They think you said something after that that they
23 didn't catch.
24 A. I think that it was not possible to have an overview of all that
25 was going on and to register everything because there were some cases
1 that were uncovered much later, when there were no longer any traces
2 left. For example, you find a man who had been killed and that
3 particular incident was not processed. I think that I wouldn't say that
4 that was done intentionally.
5 Q. So your answer is you don't know whether any crimes were hushed
6 up, do you? You actually don't know?
7 A. I don't know. I don't know.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? May I just clarify this?
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Jurisic, could you take off your headphones
12 again kindly.
13 Mr. Karadzic, could you let us know what your question is in
15 THE ACCUSED: Excellencies, this question and the answer is so
16 ambiguous in our language, so if the Chamber will take into
17 consideration only "I don't know, I don't know," without what witness
18 said previously, then I have to clarify what he didn't know. But if you
19 take everything into consideration, it's different because of negation in
20 our language: Did you know that something was not -- was or was not
21 hushed up? Or did you know that something was hushed up? This is
22 linguistic catch.
23 JUDGE KWON: In our view, the answer is sufficiently clear.
24 We'll not allow you to put that question.
25 Yes, Mr. Jurisic. Mr. Jurisic, that concludes your evidence. On
1 behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to
2 The Hague to give it. You are now free to go.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 THE ACCUSED: Just for the record, Excellencies, I really feel
6 that it is not sufficient to leave that kind of ambiguous questions. So
7 it should be -- he should be asked whether you knew case that was hushed
8 up. Or -- this is difference in language and ...
9 JUDGE MORRISON: What the witness actually said was that he
10 didn't know whether any case was hushed up or not. It doesn't seem to be
11 very ambiguous. He was saying it wasn't within his sphere of knowledge
12 whether a case was hushed or whether it wasn't. So how one would delve
13 further into that seems very difficult.
14 JUDGE KWON: I was informed informally from the Registrar that
15 the next witness strongly wishes to conclude his evidence today, which
16 seems almost impossible, unfortunately.
17 While we are waiting, for the record, I wanted to make it on the
18 record that the Chamber issued a confidential decision yesterday vacating
19 its decision to subpoena Mr. Miletic and the subpoena itself. And the
20 Chamber is going to file -- issue a public version of the decision.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Just related to the gentleman who's just walked
24 into court, I just wanted to let everyone know that because of the sudden
25 change in the witness schedule the -- and this witness being my
1 responsibility, I haven't yet had an opportunity to correspond whatever
2 exhibits I might want to show in English with the B/C/S original pages.
3 And I'll, of course, over the course of our lunch break try and work to
4 do that as fast as I can, but I might be asking for your leave as well,
5 Your Honours, depending on how the schedule goes for a few extra minutes.
6 I think once I can do that, it would just speed up everything else that
7 happens in the courtroom.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: Defence is ready to extend the time if it is
10 possible. I am ready.
11 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration,
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: JOVAN SARAC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Sarac. Please make yourself
19 Mr. Sarac, before you commence your evidence, I must draw your
20 attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the
21 Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may object to
22 answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, and even from
23 the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a
24 criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying something
25 that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or
1 saying something that might have -- that might provide evidence that you
2 might have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that
3 an answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to
4 answer the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power
5 to compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the
6 Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled under such
7 circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid against
8 you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false
9 testimony. Do you understand that, Mr. Sarac?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 I also understand that you are -- you have been waiting from
13 9.00 this morning and you wish -- prefer to conclude your testimony
14 today, but given the time I'm not sure it can be done or not due to the
15 scheduling plan of the courtroom. But we'll see how it evolves at the
16 end and then discuss at the end of the day.
17 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
18 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Sarac.
20 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.
21 Q. Let us please pause between questions and answers. You've
22 already shown that you can do that.
23 Have you provided my Defence team with a statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you see on the screen before you the first page of your
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Please don't be confused by certain reductions. The Prosecutor
7 asked for certain sentences to be redacted and the Trial Chamber allowed
8 that, and we believe that this does not infringe upon the statement in
9 any way. Did you read and sign this statement?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the last page so that
12 he could identify his signature.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my signature, the one that
14 I've been using for many, many years.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Does this statement faithfully reflect what you communicated to
17 the Defence team?
18 A. Yes, but there are two technical errors in two paragraphs, and I
19 would like to ask that that be corrected.
20 Q. Do you have your statement there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you please help us with that, which paragraphs?
23 A. Paragraph 55, the second subparagraph. In paragraph 41 it
24 says -- it should say in paragraph 40 and 41, that's all.
25 Q. I see. In paragraph 55 you are recalling two paragraphs, 40 and
2 A. Yes, that's right. And I think that the same goes for another
3 paragraph, yes, in paragraph 56.
4 Q. So in paragraph 56, again you are referring to paragraphs 40 and
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Thank you. Would that be all?
8 A. Yes, as far as the statement is concerned.
9 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today,
10 would your answers basically be the same?
11 A. They would be almost identical.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
14 statement into evidence according to Rule 92 ter.
15 JUDGE KWON: And associated exhibits?
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, there are three associated
17 exhibits being offered. The first one was omitted from our Rule 65 ter
18 list due to an oversight. We would ask that it be added. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objections, Ms. Edgerton?
20 MS. EDGERTON: No.
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit them all.
22 Shall we assign the numbers.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, the 92 ter statement 1D8851
24 will be D4368. 65 ter number 1D00848 will be D4369. 17333 will be
25 Exhibit D4370, and 65 ter number 17446 will be Exhibit D4371.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Now I'm going to read out a brief summary of Mr. Jovan Sarac's
5 statement in the English language.
6 [In English] Jovan Sarac was born on 19th of February, 1967, in
7 Praca, Pale municipality. He was a member of the SDS Main Board from
8 the -- from July 1991 and a member of the SDS Municipal Board in Pale.
9 In early 1990 the SDA was formed. This made the Serbian people
10 very concerned. Although the Serbs were reluctant to organise
11 politically along ethnic lines, they did so out of necessity in response
12 to the Muslim and Croat action.
13 Upon Dr. Karadzic's election as president of the party at its
14 founding Assembly, Mr. Sarac -- he -- Karadzic did not have much
15 political authority and considered his political engagement to be
16 temporary. The key goals of the party were the preservation of
17 Yugoslavia and the equality of the Serbian people in Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina. The party leadership advocated that all political issues in
19 BH be resolved through negotiations.
20 In May 1991, the Muslims formed a paramilitary unit called the
21 Patriotic League. They moved freely Sarajevo, half-uniformed, and with
22 the emblems of that paramilitary organisation. The law enforcement did
23 nothing although they were illegal. The Serbs at that time had no
24 paramilitary organisations.
25 With regards to the arming of the Muslims, the JNA discovered the
1 theft of the weapons and the mines and explosives from the JNA barracks
2 in Renovica municipality of Pale, carried out by some Muslims. After
3 their arrest, there were mass protests among the Muslims in Bistrik,
4 Sarajevo, demonstrating a lot of hatred and primitivism surrounding the
5 command of 2nd Army district. The aim of the theft was to arm the Muslim
6 paramilitary formations.
7 The murder of the Serbian wedding guest in Bascarsija was
8 followed by a number of incidents. Cars and buses were intercepted on
9 the Sarajevo-Pale road and money and documents were seized from the
10 passengers. It was done by the Green Berets. On April the 4th, 1992,
11 Muslim extremists beat up two bus drivers and some Serbian passengers.
12 The Green Beret attacks are purely -- attacked a purely Serbian village,
13 Lapisnica, and wounded one person. After this, the police from Pale
14 intervened and protected the local Serbian population. Then a
15 check-point was set up in Lapisnica between Pale and Sarajevo. Both the
16 JNA military police and the regular police were in charge of it.
17 With regard to the moving of the Muslims, the Serbian authorities
18 in Pale considered that all the citizens should stay and their rights,
19 safety, and property should be guaranteed. Nevertheless, many Muslims
20 asked to be allowed to leave Pale. The local authorities tried to
21 convince them this was not necessary, and the Crisis Staff assured that
22 they would provide full protection for all its citizens regardless of
23 their religion and ethnic situation. The SJB had the authority to grant
24 the requests of moving. If the Muslims wished to leave, police escorts
25 would be provided. Later most Muslims were escorted in convoys, secured
1 by the local police, to the line of separation in the surrounding of
2 Sarajevo without any incident.
3 In July 1992, after a meeting, the Executive Committee of the
4 Pale Municipal Assembly issued a conclusion on the obligation of the
5 police station to protect the property of Muslims. After the conflict,
6 all Muslim property was returned to its owners. The Croats from Pale did
7 not ask to move and they stayed in Pale during the conflict and after it.
8 And that is the summary. At that moment I don't have questions
9 for Mr. Sarac.
10 JUDGE KWON: I take it you prefer to have a lunch break now?
11 MS. EDGERTON: I would, Your Honours, and I'll work at speed.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 Mr. Sarac, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this case
14 has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written statement
15 instead of your oral testimony. And after the lunch break you will be
16 cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor. Do
17 you understand that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
19 JUDGE KWON: We shall have a break of -- for 40 minutes and
20 resume at ten to 1.00.
21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.11 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sarac.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. I would like to start by asking you just a couple of questions
3 about the statement you gave to Dr. Karadzic's Defence that he showed you
4 here a few minutes ago. Could you just explain how did it work? Did you
5 get this as a draft or did you write the whole thing yourself?
6 A. I gave the statement to the investigators -- to an investigator,
7 Mr. Furtula, and it was partly supplemented during my conversation with
8 President Karadzic.
9 Q. Now, when you gave that statement, did you have documents with
10 you? Did you use documents?
11 A. Of course. I used all the documents that I had.
12 Q. Were they your own documents or were they shown to you by the
13 investigator or was it a mix of both?
14 A. It was a mix of both.
15 Q. So in your statement where you quote some things, like at
16 paragraph 5 where you quote a speech from Dr. Karadzic, you found that
17 quote in a document; it's not something you remembered?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. And did you -- you wrote in some detail about minutes of
20 Main Board meetings. Did you do that from your memory or do you have a
22 A. I did that on the basis of my own notes that I kept while I was a
23 member of the Main Board. I did that at the sessions that I attended.
24 Q. And when -- in that collection of documents that you had and the
25 Defence gave you initially, did you review any military documents, either
1 from the JNA or the Bosnian Serb army?
2 A. Well, I reviewed military documents that I considered to be
3 relevant for my testimony.
4 Q. And what military documents were those?
5 A. It was, first of all, the Law on Defence and Protection of the
6 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; and then the Law on Defence and
7 Protection of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; and then
8 different bylaws that pertained to defence, the Law on Armed Forces of
9 the SFRY, the Law on Defence of Republika Srpska, the Law on the Army of
10 Republika Srpska, an order on the application of rules of international
11 law in Republika Srpska, instructions on how to act with prisoners of
12 war, and other documents that I may remember as we continue to talk.
13 Q. In that collection of documents you reviewed, did you see any
14 documents with evidence, for example, that Bosnian Serb forces sought
15 territory in which Muslims were a majority?
16 A. For the most part I read regulations, but absolutely nowhere did
17 I find a document instructing the armed forces of Republika Srpska to
18 take territories where the Muslims constitute the majority population.
19 However, I'm saying that I read regulations for the most part.
20 Q. All right. And now when you met Dr. Karadzic or his Defence team
21 here on the day that you signed this statement, did you review more
23 A. In the meantime, most of these documents that I found to be
24 important, I took them along and I re-read them by way of preparation.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the rest
1 of the witness's answer.
2 MS. EDGERTON:
3 Q. The interpreters didn't hear what you said after "re-read them by
4 way of preparation." Would you be able to repeat?
5 A. Most of the documents on the basis of which I gave this
6 statement, I took along and I read them, not the entire documents, but
7 those parts that I considered to be relevant. I did not have any
8 additional documents.
9 Q. All right. So in your proofing with Dr. Karadzic here, you were
10 not shown any additional documents; is that right?
11 A. A moment ago I received just one document from the President that
12 has to do with the minutes of the session of the Executive Board of the
13 SDS. I got that just as I was walking into this room. I think that the
14 document is not particularly relevant to the indictment.
15 Q. All right. Now just about your jobs, am I correct if I say that
16 you became president of the Pale SDS Municipal Board in April 1991?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And am I also correct if I say that you were a member of the
19 Crisis Staff for Pale in April, May, June, and July 1991 -- 1992, pardon
21 A. Yes, ex officio, I was a member of the Crisis Staff in the period
22 of -- well, the Crisis Staff functioned in Pale only for about
23 two months.
24 Q. And what function did you serve then after that period of time
25 where the Crisis Staff, as you said, ceased functioning?
1 A. You mean professionally where I was?
2 Q. Well, actually, there's not -- when you talked in your statement
3 about the functions you served, there's actually not a single date
4 reference as to the terms of office that you held except when you added
5 something to your statement here to say you served with the Main Board
6 until 1996. So what were you doing in August 1992?
7 A. I started working in the Ministry of the Interior and I was a
8 desk officer for legal affairs. After that, in roughly 1994, again, I
9 was a counsellor for legal affairs in the Ministry of Defence.
10 Throughout this time I was a member of the Main Board of the SDS and
11 president of the Municipal Board of the SDS in Pale.
12 Q. All right. Now, just before I move on to another area, when you
13 talked about the document that you received from Dr. Karadzic, when
14 exactly did you receive it? Just a few minutes ago or before you came
15 into this courtroom and took the oath to testify?
16 A. I received it when I came here.
17 Q. Well, was that just a few minutes ago, while we were on the lunch
19 A. No, no, when I came here, when I came here.
20 Q. Right. Now, just in terms of your work with the Crisis Staff, is
21 it also -- can you also confirm that for a period of time you were on the
22 Crisis Staff for SAO Romanija?
23 A. No, the -- there never was a Crisis Staff for Romanija, never
24 existed. There was an Assembly of SAO Romanija and there was a
25 government of SAO Romanija and there was a regional board for the SDS for
1 Romanija. A Crisis Staff never existed at regional level as far as the
2 SAO Romanija is concerned.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look, please, at 65 ter number
4 21353, please.
5 Q. So this is from -- it's a newspaper article, you can see, from
6 "Oslobodjenje" dated 26 March 1992.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe Mr. Sarac would be helped if you actually
8 made the one in his language bigger.
9 Q. Although you can understand and read English, I think, can't you,
10 Mr. Sarac?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Can you enlarge the one in B/C/S, please.
12 Q. So this newspaper report says that -- it's still really, really
13 tiny, but if you can go down to, I think, the third full paragraph, it
14 says that Malko Koroman asserted he had terminated the five non-Serb
15 police officers in Pale and three in Sokolac on the order of the
16 government of SAO Romanija. So who gave him the order then?
17 A. Well, Malko Koroman was chief of the public security station in
18 Pale. He could have possibly issued an order like that for Pale, but not
19 for Sokolac because Zoran Cvijetic was the chief of the public security
20 station there. So I mean -- I don't know if that's the way it was, who
21 it was that could have issued that order to him.
22 Q. Who was in the government of SAO Romanija that would have issued
23 the order to Malko Koroman? That's what I'm interested in.
24 A. The minister of the interior was Zoran Cvijetic. He was minister
25 of the interior of the SAO Romanija. As I've already said, SAO Romanija
1 did not have a Crisis Staff but a government that functioned up until --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not sure about the year.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. And you were a member of the Assembly of SAO Romanija; right?
5 A. No, I was just a member of the regional board of the SDS for
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe when this is listened to
10 they're going to correct this, but line 8, the witness said that it was
11 until October 1992 that the government functioned, I think.
12 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Sarac?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that this has to be
14 checked. I think that all governments were abolished then but I'm not
15 sure. It's not that it worked with particular intensity. Perhaps it was
17 JUDGE KWON: No, I'm asking your answer -- what your answer was
18 because the interpreters missed it. What did you say, up until when?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that the government
20 worked until October 1992, but that is just on the basis of memory. I
21 don't have a single document.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
23 MS. EDGERTON: That's fine. Thank you.
24 Q. Now, in your statement you talked -- we'll move on to 1992. And
25 you spoke at paragraph 22 about a declaration of imminent threat of war
1 and mobilisation of the Territorial Defence on the 15th of April. Now,
2 you know, don't you, that that decision of the 15th of April was actually
3 militarily implemented the following day, on the 16th?
4 It's not a trick question. Would you agree with me that the
5 decision was militarily implemented the next day?
6 A. Well, you see, mobilisation cannot be implemented as fast as
7 that. It's a lasting process.
8 Q. All right. Let's have a look at another document, maybe I'll be
10 MS. EDGERTON: P2412, please. Right.
11 Q. This is the decision to -- to the government of the autonomous
12 regions and the Serbian autonomous regions, to all the Serbian Assemblies
13 on the mobilisation of the Territorial Defence.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could go over to page 2 in both
16 Q. You see the decision was issued by General Subotic, who was a
17 minister at the time. And paragraph 2 of this document -- or, pardon me,
18 paragraph 1 says:
19 "The municipal Territorial Defence staffs that have operated
20 regularly so far shall remain in the same formation and
21 establishment ..."
22 And that's actually what was happening in Pale, wasn't it, their
23 mobilisation had been effected and the Territorial Defence in Pale was
24 functioning; right?
25 A. Yes, of course. The command of the Territorial Defence of the
1 municipality of Pale was functional practically until the VRS was set up
2 with some small exceptions, because it had been operational from the
3 earlier period, the entire structure.
4 Q. From the earlier period actually predating this order; isn't that
5 the case?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Then let's look at another document. Maybe you can
8 confirm it for me.
9 MS. EDGERTON: It's P6094. This is a 2nd Military District
10 Command document and it's dated April 8th, 1992. And if we can go over
11 to the second page of this document, please.
12 Q. Under the heading "4th Corps" --
13 MS. EDGERTON: And let me just see if I have the right page in
14 B/C/S because I don't have paragraph numbers.
15 I think you have to go back to the first page in B/C/S, please.
16 Thank you.
17 Q. Under the heading "4th Corps," second paragraph, it says:
18 "During the afternoon, the members of the Territorial Defence
19 from Pale municipality opened mortar fire on the sector Vratnik and on
20 the old part of the city of Sarajevo ..."
21 So not only was the Territorial Defence in Pale functioning at
22 that point in time even before the forces were implemented, it was
23 shelling parts of the old town of Sarajevo. That's what this
24 contemporaneous document shows; right?
25 A. It's a document of the JNA which I have no knowledge of. I can
1 tell you that, under the law, the TO units were resubordinated to the
2 JNA. Until the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina that was the case.
3 There could have been a paramilitary organisation, a volunteer group, or
4 somebody doing things wilfully, but I'm not privy to the details.
5 Q. So this document - if you go over to the second page - it's a
6 standard military daily combat report.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Second page in B/C/S, please. And then again.
8 Q. The signatory - and you can go over to the last page as
9 well - the signatory, Slobodan Tripkovic, member of rank, is doing this
10 job. The man who signed this document, the duty team, has an obligation,
11 Mr. Sarac, to make sure his information is accurate because he's sending
12 it up to his command. It doesn't say anything about any kind of renegade
13 here, any kind of wilful behaviour, does it? Are you saying he got it
15 A. I simply don't have any information about the contents of this
16 document. I'm not an expert that could comment on who could take
17 decisions or issue orders, et cetera.
18 Q. Fine. Fine. We'll move on. I want to go to that part of your
19 statement where you talk the 400 men from Bratunac and it's at
20 paragraph 41. Now, in the first draft of your statement, Mr. Sarac, you
21 said that:
22 "The local or republican leadership never found out how these
23 people had been captured or why they were transferred to Pale ..."
24 And then in what you finally signed, you amended that evidence to
1 "The local leadership never found out why these people were
2 transferred to Pale, whereas the republican leadership was out of town in
3 Banja Luka at an Assembly session ..."
4 So you changed your evidence, right, because it appears from what
5 you now say, you knew how these people had been captured?
6 A. We never came to learn how these people were captured. This
7 amendment to my statement was due to the fact that subsequently I found
8 out that the entire republican leadership was out of town attending an
9 Assembly session.
10 Q. Did you even see these 400 men come into Bratunac?
11 A. Yes. I was in a cafe at a time when these trailer-trucks
12 carrying these people came to Pale. We tried to notify the republican
13 leadership at once; nobody knew anything. They spent four days at Pale.
14 We were trying to help them through the Red Cross by providing them with
15 food, blankets, and so on. They were put up in the gym because they had
16 to be put somewhere. We tried to find out where they had come out and
17 learnt that some paramilitaries who wore the red berets did that, that
18 the goal behind their actions was to discredit Pale and the republican
20 After having spoken to President Karadzic and President Krajisnik
21 and -- or rather, President Krajisnik and President Djeric, because
22 President Karadzic was away, we insisted that these people be released,
23 and the fact is that they were all in civilian uniforms. We had full
24 support. Later on President Karadzic came, appropriate orders were
25 issued, and these people were transferred to Muslim-controlled
1 territories. I think that they only spent four days at Pale.
2 Q. And you would have seen, then, that these men were physically
3 abused, like they had been bruised and they had been beaten and they been
4 mutilated, you would have seen that; right?
5 A. There were no visible injuries. I don't know if there were
6 injuries that could be observed. I didn't spend a great deal of time
7 there. Right away with the deputy and president of the Crisis Staff, I
8 busied myself with trying to find out what can be done with these people
9 and how they can be assisted, and in fact this was seen through to the
11 Q. Thank you. Now, you spoke about Renovica as well in your written
12 evidence. It was the Crisis Staff's decision to send the police to
13 Renovica on 22nd of May, wasn't it?
14 A. As far as I remember, the chief of the police station settled
15 with their leader that they should surrender weapons, and it was the
16 police patrol that was supposed to do that. It was not a decision, it
17 was an agreement.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said it wasn't a police
21 action but a police patrol and "action" wasn't recorded.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Sarac?
24 A. Yes. It was a police patrol which, based on the agreement
25 between the chief of the police station and the leaders of the Muslims in
1 the area, which was supposed to do this. It came under fire and two
2 policemen were killed.
3 Q. And the person who commanded that operation was Malko Koroman;
5 A. Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. The question stated
7 that it was an operation, whereas the witness clearly said that it was a
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I concur fully.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's continue.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Now, you know, Mr. Koroman actually some years ago was
13 interviewed by the ICTY and the interview was audio recorded. And he
14 spoke about that operation, and I'd like to have a look at that
16 MS. EDGERTON: It's 65 ter number 26014. And we could go, when
17 we get it, to page 76.
18 Q. It's, unfortunately, not available in your language, but are you
19 able to read it, Mr. Sarac, or would you like me to read it to you and
20 have it translated, the portions I'd like to put to you? It's your
22 A. It's best that it's interpreted to me.
23 Q. That's fine. In this main -- this large paragraph that you see
24 on the page in front of you, Mr. Koroman talks about that action and he
1 "I participated and I know of that action, it's in regard to a
2 part of Pale ... where some 90 to 92 per cent of the population were
3 Muslims and maybe some 87 per cent were Serbs ..."
4 Although I don't know quite how that mathematically works out.
5 And he said further:
6 "There were army barracks there, storage mostly, a lot of
7 ammunition ..."
8 And that's correct, isn't it, both at Renovica and Donja Vinca,
9 those are the old JNA storage facilities for their logistics brigades;
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And he says:
13 "In May, then, Muslims prevented police from Pale arriving into
14 Renovica and we received an order to establish order in that part of the
15 municipal territory."
16 And then he goes on to talk about how he went there, he says that
17 they were in police uniforms and one of their "targets was to secure the
18 barracks as well because certain groups were entering the barracks and
19 taking ammunition ..."
20 So we'll go over to the next page. I'll tell you what
21 Mr. Koroman said and I'll ask you a couple of questions.
22 And at the next page he says that -- he says they came without a
23 military formation and when they arrived in Renovica they were shot at by
24 the Muslims, two policemen were killed -- although he says some policemen
25 were killed, five or six were wounded. And then he says:
1 "Then 200 inhabitants were not what I would say detained, they
2 were taken into custody, our custody, they were held at the school at
3 Renovica ..."
4 And then they found -- on that occasion they encountered 35 or
5 37, maybe 33 men who surrendered with weapons and they took them with us
6 to the police station at Pale and he says that they were sent to Kula
7 10 or 15 days later.
8 And at the very bottom of the page he said:
9 "We handed over the barracks to the army ... and that was the
10 very last day that the police entered Renovica."
11 So my question to you is: You can confirm that there were
12 actually people from Renovica held in the hall behind the police station
13 at Pale as well; right?
14 A. You see, the police station did have a room where it kept
15 suspects of criminal offences. That was the case before the war, during
16 the war, and today. In this case, it obviously had to do with a police
17 patrol whose objective was to enforce the rule of law in that part of the
18 Pale area, which was within the purview of the Pale SJB.
19 Q. What size of patrol is required to take in more than 230 people
20 into custody?
21 A. I absolutely doubt that that was the number of the persons
22 involved. I don't think that it was possible at all. There could not
23 have been more than 10 to 15 people. Was this an error? There was
24 strange circumstances. People were afraid, people gave different
25 statements, perhaps to accommodate someone. I don't know. I can't
1 comment on that.
2 Q. So you're saying Mr. Koroman, who you said did everything he
3 could to help the Muslims, and you described him in your statement as a
4 man of integrity, you're saying Mr. Koroman got it wrong when he said
5 this in this audio-recorded interview with the ICTY?
6 A. I'm absolutely certain that no more than 15 individuals were
7 captured in this particular -- on this particular occasion.
8 Q. And is that because you were in your capacity as a member of the
9 Crisis Staff receiving reports on the operation? How else would you
11 A. Yes. He informed us of it at the meeting of the Crisis Staff and
12 it had to do with a small number of people. We insisted that these
13 individuals, if they were not guilty, should be released at once; and if
14 guilty, should be transferred to Kula and placed in the jurisdiction of
15 the prosecutor's office. After all, there has to be documentation
16 indicating this and it would have to have been part of the records of the
17 Kula prison.
18 Q. Yes. Well, the evidence is actually, Mr. Sarac, that the
19 prisoners from Renovica actually weren't released to Kula until the
20 11th of July. So you're quite right, but the transfer took some time.
21 That's actually the case, isn't it?
22 A. No. The last -- or actually, after the departure of this group
23 of 400 Muslims from Bratunac, there were no more -- they were transferred
24 to Kula far sooner.
25 Q. Well, what I'd like to put to you is, Mr. Sarac, that
1 Mr. Koroman's accounting of the events is actually far closer to reality
2 than your assertions that you're giving us now. The Crisis Staff, I'll
3 put to you, gave the order to Mr. Koroman to assume control over the
4 area. He reported to you about the operation and he calls it an
5 operation, and the evidence before this Chamber is that he came to
6 Renovica with dozens of soldiers. One witness said about a hundred
7 soldiers, which is completely consistent with the size of forces he would
8 need to take effective control over the area. It's actually in your
9 interests, isn't it, to say that the incident was of a much smaller scale
10 than even Mr. Koroman told us?
11 A. I'm absolutely certain that the incident was of a much smaller
12 scale, more than ten-fold. I don't know which police forces were
13 involved in this. It is possible that at the time -- I suppose that the
14 SJB had a hundred policemen overall in the station so they could not have
15 spared more than a dozen, but I'm sure that the Defence can call
16 Mr. Koroman and ask him to explain this to us.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Before I move on, could I have these two pages
18 tendered as Prosecution exhibits, please?
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think they've been put --
21 fully put to the witness and we don't normally admit these statements
22 which are considered for the purpose of litigation. So I don't think
23 that there's any -- it's not part of our practice to admit it, and since
24 it's been put to the witness there's no reason to.
25 JUDGE KWON: I see your point. Do we need to admit Mr. Koroman's
2 MS. EDGERTON: If I could just have your indulgence, I'll have a
3 word with Mr. Tieger.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Sarac, are you similarly so sure that no one in the gym,
8 the hall behind the police station at Pale was beaten?
9 A. I have to information about that. I did not receive information
10 that there had been mistreatments.
11 Q. Well, you actually said in your statement that it was untrue.
12 Are you now saying that you simply have no information about that?
13 A. According to the information I had, it is not true that people
14 were mistreated in the gym.
15 Q. Well, even Dr. Karadzic's -- one of Dr. Karadzic's Defence
16 witnesses who you know, Mr. Hrsum - pardon me for the mispronunciation -
17 said he couldn't rule it out, and that's at transcript page 32942. He
18 said: Well, I can't say that maybe there were no abuses by those who
19 secured the premises or that maybe they allowed entry to certain
20 individuals. And then Mr. Koroman in this same document - if we could go
21 to page 88 - actually confirms that. At the bottom of this page he said:
22 "I received information, maybe on some second or third day, from
23 a worker of mine, Tomislav," and the last name is misspelled which is
24 Vrsan, "that there are individuals from those units who are entering the
25 gym and harassing the detainees."
1 And he said Mr. Hrsum informed him because he knew that he would
2 stand up for them - you can go over to the next page - for their
4 So police officials, one of whom who gave evidence under oath
5 here and the other one who stated this in an audio-recorded interview,
6 have both said that they couldn't rule out the possibility that there
7 were beatings. And this Chamber has heard that prisoners in the gym were
8 called out by name by soldiers they knew and beaten, one man until he
9 passed out, and the beating only stopped when a soldier came up and told
10 them they were beating the wrong guy. That soldier, this witness said,
11 was Milomir Tepis, and that's at transcript page 15304 to 05 and P2839.
12 And Milomir Tepis has actually -- was convicted in 1999 to 13 years'
13 imprisonment for the beatings of prisoners committed at the Dom Kulture
14 in Pale, that hall.
15 So two police officials with control over the institution have
16 said it could be possible, and a court in your own country has actually
17 convicted one of the perpetrators and you don't have that information, as
18 a man who was a member of the Crisis Staff of Pale at that time?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I remark that paragraph 57
20 speaks about beatings by guards --
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's totally inappropriate to
22 intervene in such a way.
23 Yes, Mr. Sarac, please answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I said was that I as a member
25 of the Crisis Staff did not get information that they were mistreated and
1 beaten there. People in the police station who were directly responsible
2 for that probably knew that. Under the Law on Common Affairs that was
3 under their jurisdiction. So I was only talking about the information
4 that I had at my disposal.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. So why didn't you say that in your statement, that you simply
7 didn't know and had limited information at your disposal, rather than
8 saying that it was untrue that prisoner were beaten?
9 A. Could you please just help me by telling me which paragraph that
11 Q. I can do that in one second, no problem.
12 THE ACCUSED: If I may help, 57, I suppose.
13 MS. EDGERTON:
14 Q. Absolutely, paragraph 57. At paragraph 57 you said these facts
15 are not true.
16 A. And then I go on to say, according to what I know, none of the
17 detainees were mistreated, which doesn't mean necessarily that there were
18 no incidents. Which was later something that was confirmed by those.
19 Q. All right. Well, then I have a question actually. In your
20 statement from paragraph 50 -- in paragraph 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, and
21 so on, 58 and 59, you've said a series of incidents, assertions, claims,
22 aren't true. How, then, are we to take that based on the qualification
23 you've just made in your statement? Does that mean you simply -- when
24 you say it's not true, does that mean you simply just don't know?
25 A. I can say what I know about each of these particular cases. You
1 cannot apply the principle in general to each of these situations because
2 each one is different.
3 Q. Right.
4 JUDGE KWON: So Ms. Edgerton's question is this: When you say
5 all these facts are not true, can we understand it to mean that according
6 to the information you had those facts were not true?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
9 Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Fine. Thank you.
11 Q. Now, you talked about paramilitary forces in Pale, saying that
12 there -- initially there were no paramilitary organisations and then
13 there was one unit called Charlie's Unit which was terrorising the
14 population. And then saying at paragraph 53 that the paramilitaries were
15 banned and prosecuted, but that's actually not the case, is it? Even two
16 months after Dr. Karadzic's order banning paramilitaries, Arkan's men
17 were staying at the Hotel Panorama.
18 A. My statement says that these were not Arkan's men, but a unit
19 commanded by a certain Charlie. This unit did not take part in any
20 fighting. It exclusively looted and terrorised the local population,
21 regardless of their ethnicity. We did notice this problem, we informed
22 the top leadership, including President Karadzic and the defence minister
23 and others from the corps command. After that, a unit was engaged from
24 Trebevic and a police unit, and then they expelled that unit from Pale.
25 After that, no paramilitary unit participated.
1 Q. Tell us when that happened.
2 A. I don't know exactly. I assume that that could have been
3 sometime in June 1992, but I'm not absolutely sure. You know, it was
4 a -- it was a difficult thing to do, to expel that unit. It was a
5 trained, well-organised and well-armed unit. A lot of time was required
6 to be able to do that, and our people, military and civilian commanders
7 who were conducting the operation carried out the operation without a
8 single error.
9 Q. Now, also in your statement you said at paragraph 9 that Karadzic
10 was a leader who had no control over the army and certain parts of the
11 government. But you weren't a soldier during the war, were you?
12 A. No. I worked at the Ministry of Internal Affairs as a civilian
13 and then I worked at the Ministry of Justice. I was a civilian working
14 on legal affairs in both institutions.
15 Q. So you never attended meetings of the Supreme Command; right?
16 A. That is correct. As an SDS official, I think that I would not
17 have been allowed to attend anyway. Everybody knew who members of the
18 command were and they attended and then somebody else could be invited to
19 the meeting for very specific reasons.
20 Q. You wouldn't have seen any of Dr. Karadzic's military directives
21 or any of his orders to the military?
22 A. No. I just saw those that were published, that is, the order on
23 the application of international law in the armed forces as well as
24 instructions on the treatment of prisoners of war. I did not have access
25 to others that were issued because probably they were also confidential.
1 Q. You weren't present at his meetings with his military anywhere in
2 the war theatre; right?
3 A. No. I was at a meeting with him only once when -- this was in
4 1995 and it was dealing with military issues, and this was in 1995 when
5 the order was issued to re-direct the Trebevic Battalion to a different
6 area and that another unit from the Krajina come to that area. That was
7 when they asked me from the command to use my authority to try to speak
8 with President Karadzic because many saw conspiracy in it. Many of them
9 heard stories that that area was supposed to fall, that it was supposed
10 to be traded off for Gorazde.
11 I spoke with Mr. Karadzic. I said that people were concerned,
12 that there was a number of people who were prepared to leave for fronts
13 in other areas, but we were concerned because that area could fall
14 because nobody would defend that area except the people who lived there.
15 I did encounter a lot of understanding. President Karadzic called
16 General Mladic and he explained to him what the problem was. He did not
17 have an attitude of issuing orders to him in the sense that he was
18 ordering him to do something. He said that he knew about the problem and
19 that he thought that that unit could achieve certain results, but in view
20 of the fact that the citizens were concerned about it, that measure would
21 be reviewed and that was done so that the Trebevic Battalion remained at
22 Trebevic. And thank God the enemy forces did not manage to take Pale in
23 that offensive on the Sarajevo front, precisely thanks to that move.
24 Q. And that was in August 1995; right?
25 A. More or less, yes.
1 Q. Now, you also weren't party to Dr. Karadzic's conversations with
2 any members of his Main Staff, other than this one incident that you've
3 just described to us, you weren't a part of those conversations; right?
4 A. No. I was in President Karadzic's office as he spoke to
5 General Mladic on the phone. I never attended any meeting with the
6 military leadership, it wasn't something that my position would permit me
7 to do.
8 Q. And that conversation on the phone refers to this single meeting
9 that you've just told us about in August 1995; right?
10 A. Yes. He called General Mladic in my presence, he explained what
11 the problem was, and he received the promise that the order would be
12 withdrawn, the order about the reassignment of the Trebevic Battalion to
13 a different theatre.
14 Q. So really what you've told to us, you weren't anywhere in the
15 military chain of command; right?
16 A. Correct, no.
17 Q. So this Court has actually received a great deal of evidence
18 about how the command and control of the army actually worked from the
19 people who were a part of it. General Gvero, even way back in 1992,
20 explained it to the Bosnian Serb Assembly, and I'll tell you what he
21 said. It's from D422, e-court page 63 and B/C/S pages 62 and 63 in
23 General Gvero said:
24 "Shortly, the basic elements are there's the Supreme Command of
25 the army, and that's the president as the supreme commander, and in our
1 situation this will be the Presidency. All the elements of defence and
2 the army are subordinated to this institution. We in the army are
3 following this and trying to fully observe it ..."
4 So that is a very clear contemporaneous statement by one of
5 Dr. Karadzic's senior commanders about how the line of command was
6 supposed to function and how it did, they were doing what they were told;
8 A. You have that in the constitution and in the Law on the Army.
9 The president of the republic is the supreme commander, but he's not
10 authorised or responsible in the operational sense. He cannot issue
11 orders specifically to a unit. His authority is set by the republican
12 constitution, the Law on Defence, the Law on the Army. So it's a little
13 bit broader of aspect of command of the armed forces, which include some
14 civilian structures as well.
15 But as for the armed forces, the principle that applies there is
16 the principle of subordination and singleness of command. These
17 principles are important in the Yugoslav People's Army and they're still
18 in force today. I think they apply in all countries of the world.
19 Q. I just want to show you an order from Dr. Karadzic.
20 MS. EDGERTON: It's P4925. All right.
21 This is an order, it's a document that's entitled: Amendment or
22 supplement to directive 6 and it was issued by Dr. Karadzic on the
23 12th of December, 1993. And we could go to paragraph 2, subsection 2, in
24 both languages, so that's on the same page in English. But on the B/C/S
25 document you'd have to go over to page 2.
1 Q. This is an order, Mr. Sarac, that says: By -- I'll wait until we
2 see the document.
3 It says: By 21 December 1993 when the Geneva negotiations are
4 resumed to improve the SRK -- the SRK's operational and tactical position
5 by seizing Zuc and Mojmilo to ensure the most favourable position for
6 dividing the town of Sarajevo.
7 All right. You see that?
8 A. I can hardly see anything it's so dark.
9 MS. EDGERTON: I think what we need to do is in the B/C/S go back
10 to page 1.
11 Q. If you can't see, you should just tell us.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Go to the paragraph at the bottom of the page,
13 please, and enlarge it.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's better now.
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. All right. These are the tasks that Dr. Karadzic issued to the
17 VRS, very specific military tasks, with a view to improving the position
18 for the division of the city before the Geneva negotiations. And we
19 could probably, if it's all right with Mr. Sarac, go over to page 2 now
20 at the top of the page.
21 A. Very well.
22 Q. To --
23 A. And if you can just zoom in a little bit, please.
24 Q. All right. This tactical order was implemented by General Mladic
25 two days later, on the 14th of December, he issued an order to the
1 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and he said in the order on the basis of the
2 decision reached by the highest officials of the Serbian people - and
3 it's P3052 - he issued the order to take over control of Zuc, Orlic, Hum,
4 and Mojmilo, among others, to finally provide conditions for the division
5 of Sarajevo. And then the day after that, on the 14th of December, the
6 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps issued a command to carry out the operation. So
7 that's P1196. And I can show you any of these things if you'd like to
8 see them.
9 But what I want to put to you is not only do we have
10 contemporaneous statements of people in the direct chain of command, this
11 Court has military documents illustrating the effectiveness of
12 Dr. Karadzic's tactical as well as strategic control. So your assertion
13 that Dr. Karadzic didn't have control of the army actually has no basis
14 in the facts; isn't that the case?
15 A. I didn't say that he didn't have control of the army. He had
16 supreme control. All of this is legitimate. This is a directive that
17 was submitted to the Main Staff for implementation. One must
18 differentiate between the supreme commander and the operations commander.
19 He has nothing to do with the actual execution of the assignments, but
20 must just say what the tasks are and what the goals would be that would
21 need to be implemented before each peace conference. This was something
22 that was done by each of the sides. This is something that is being done
23 in Syria now as well.
24 I just want to add, I'm a little bit surprised, I'm being treated
25 as if I were a military expert. I'm asked to look at military documents.
1 I wish that I were, but unfortunately I am not.
2 Q. Well, your written evidence says at paragraph 9 that Dr. Karadzic
3 was engaged in peace plans and unable to keep things under control,
4 especially when it came to the armed forces. Making an assertion like
5 that, Mr. Sarac, it's for me to inquire what the basis of your evidence
7 A. Yes. I assert that most of the time President Karadzic dealt on
8 preparing ways to resolve the situation and seek peace in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He did not deal that much with the work of the
10 government even though he did have that right under the constitution to
11 convene the government in the same way as the armed forces. The reason
12 for that was because he was busy with these other things and didn't have
13 enough time. My subjective assessment is that he actually liked that
14 part of the job the best because of his profession of psychiatrist.
15 Q. So it's not that Dr. Karadzic couldn't keep things under control
16 when it came to the army, he just liked to do other things better?
17 A. Well, there was a great antagonism between the military and
18 civilian organs. A couple of times President Karadzic tried that but he
19 didn't manage to. In the war, authority and power lies in the hands of
20 those who have the weapons; the prime minister, the president do not. So
21 that is a fact, at least when we're talking about these local wars,
22 that's how it is.
23 In my statement, among other things, as an example it says that
24 we in the municipality as civilian structures were not satisfied with the
25 work of the police station. We pointed to a series of problems. It was
1 agreed with the minister of internal affairs, Mr. Stanisic, to make cadre
2 changes. A thousand people assembled and prevented the implementation of
3 the decision to which there was a right, according to the law. Can you
4 imagine how it was then if a minister could not resolve a question in his
5 own backyard, you can imagine how it was then on a broader level.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the
7 last sentence.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sarac, could you repeat the last sentence of
9 your answer.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the question is how
11 effective the government is of the president, the Chief of the
12 General Staff. I mentioned an example from Pale where they tried to
13 legally replace the head of the police station, but this was prevented by
14 a crowd of rabble collecting. The prime minister and the president did
15 not have that power. I know what their authority was, but simply the
16 minister of defence, of the interior were not able to actually exercise
17 the power that they had the right to under the law. That's the essence
18 of it.
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. Now, even though you might have sensed some antagonism between
21 the military and the civilian organs, you're not saying that there was
22 any cracks in the civilian-military machine, are you? Because
23 Dr. Karadzic himself said at the 50th Assembly Session, P970:
24 "How can there be a split between the supreme commander and his
25 subordinate commander? There's no split. If there's a split, it's clear
1 who will have to go. I haven't resorted to firing Mladic or any of his
2 assistants ..."
3 And he never did, did he? Things continued to function; right?
4 A. You see, you have to understand statements of this sort as a show
5 that you're putting on for the people. It was necessary to appease the
6 masses. The point behind this statement was to reassure people that
7 there were no conflicts, that everything was fine, so as to avoid having
8 people in general siding with one or the other side.
9 Q. Things --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript doesn't reflect --
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 23, before "it was necessary
13 to appease," the witness said that there was a rift, a conflict, but it
14 was necessarily -- necessary to conceal this before the masses, but there
15 was a conflict.
16 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm having said so, Mr. Sarac?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Before you continue, Ms. Edgerton, for planning
19 purposes, I'd like to know how much longer you would need.
20 MS. EDGERTON: A good half an hour, certainly no less.
21 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 Q. So to go back to my question, you're not saying that the RS
24 stopped functioning? You're not saying that the civilian-military
25 leadership of the Republika Srpska broke down, are you? Things kept
2 A. As I said, the people involved were clever people so ultimately
3 some sort of a compromise was found. Had this conflict come out into the
4 open, I don't think that we would have Republika Srpska today.
5 Q. Now, you also said that Dr. Karadzic had trouble controlling his
6 own government. I wonder, have you been watching this trial at all,
7 Mr. Sarac?
8 A. In part.
9 Q. So would you have seen Mr. Djeric, Dr. Karadzic's prime minister,
10 coming to testify in his defence and telling all of us that
11 President Karadzic and Krajisnik were the Alpha and Omega of the
12 government? Did you see that?
13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Prime Minister Djeric was a Prosecution
14 witness for the information of Ms. Edgerton. And while we're at it,
15 making corrections, Dr. Karadzic did attempt to discharge General Mladic
16 on the 4th of August, 1995, so it would be good to put -- if you're going
17 to put broad questions, to make sure they're accurate.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Did you see that? And, yes, he was a Prosecution witness. I
20 just have a note delivered to me from Mr. Tieger to that effect as well.
21 My mistake.
22 Did you know about Prime Minister Djeric's testimony?
23 A. Unfortunately, I did not follow the testimony of the former
24 Prime Minister Djeric.
25 Q. And --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for a reference that by
2 testifying in my case, Djeric said that Karadzic and Krajisnik were the
3 Alpha and the Omega.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Transcript page 27952.
5 Q. Now, again in front of the Republika Srpska Assembly, this time
6 in 1993, the 34th Session, which is P1739, Dr. Karadzic himself spoke
7 about his relationship with the government. And at English page 255 and
8 B/C/S page 289 he said:
9 "I usually don't do other things except for representing the
10 republic and watching over the internal politics, but believe me, the
11 government is mine. I am responsible for its functioning. I appoint and
12 propose the government mandator. I have a brilliant relationship with
13 Vlado Lukic," the prime minister at the time, "we're often together, he
14 often comes to my cabinet ..."
15 So, Mr. Sarac, Dr. Karadzic in his own contemporaneous statements
16 and his prime minister in front of these Chambers contradict you; right?
17 A. You see, this too could only be a show for the public. What I
18 said - and you didn't quote this from my statement - was that he did not
19 even have control over some parts of the government. I attended an
20 Assembly meeting and I recall being surprised by a question that was put
21 by the president, who said that he didn't know what became of the money
22 that was coming from the Central Bank, from the mission. His purview was
23 foreign affairs, culture, defence in part, whereas for the rest there
24 were strong individuals in place who were very hard to exercise control
25 over. Of course, under the constitution, the president appoints the
1 prime minister designate. In exceptional cases he may call a meeting of
2 the government, even chair the meeting. I think that the president
3 availed himself of this possibility only in a handful of occasions.
4 Q. In your statement, to go on to another area, at paragraph 20 you
5 were also very clear in the point that the Crisis Staffs in the territory
6 of the Serb republic had no command over the armed forces and, more
7 specifically, the JNA. So --
8 A. Of course, this is common knowledge. The Crisis Staffs did not
9 have the power to command the units of the Yugoslav People's Army, the
10 TO units, or the police units. The Crisis Staffs were in fact set up
11 pursuant to the federal Law on All People's Defence and the Law on
12 People's Defence of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina because
13 conditions were not in place for War Presidencies to be declared pursuant
14 to a declared state of war. The Crisis Staffs did not have any powers to
15 command in the field of defence and protection. As I said earlier, when
16 it came to the armed forces, the principles of subordination and
17 singleness of command apply. Had the Crisis Staffs had any sort of power
18 over the military and the police, it would in actual fact have meant that
19 there was two-track command in place which is not something that existed
20 under the SFRY military doctrine.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. You're not disputing that the Crisis Staffs were the highest
25 authority in the municipalities, are you?
1 A. The Crisis Staffs had the sort of powers that the
2 Municipal Assembly would have in peace time. So the Crisis Staffs were
3 duty-bound to hand-over all the decisions they had taken to the
4 Municipal Assembly for confirmation at the earliest opportunity. This is
5 what were earlier -- in the earlier period the committees for emergency
6 situations or councils for national defence that existed in all
7 municipalities. So this was some sort of an extended Executive Board
8 because one would automatically become a member of these committees for
9 national defence, although you had the possibility of co-opting
10 additional members. I can even cite the articles of the relevant
11 legislation pursuant to which Crisis Staffs were set up.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 24 the witness said this was a
15 transformation of what were earlier these committees for emergency
16 situations. So this was a transformation of these structures into
17 Crisis Staffs, and this isn't in the transcript.
18 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Sarac?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. So you're giving us a very formalistic approach. You haven't
22 actually looked at any Crisis Staff documentation from anywhere across
23 the breadth of the RS, perhaps outside of your own municipality, Pale;
25 A. I reviewed all the documents of the Crisis Staff of the
1 municipality of Pale, and I can claim with absolute certainty that all
2 the decisions were taken in accordance with the legislation in force at
3 the time. I was not reviewing the decisions issued by other
4 Crisis Staffs, but of course I always take a legalistic approach. I'm a
5 lawyer by profession. I always follow the same line of thinking, and
6 that's my view today, the one that I had at the time.
7 Q. And so I take it you weren't, in March of 1992, at the
8 RS Assembly on the 27th, P1634, when Dr. Karadzic said, at English
9 page 23, B/C/S page 39, when he said to the delegates: When you return
10 to your municipalities, especially the newly formed ones, establish
11 Crisis Staffs and find a number of reserve officers for those staffs and
12 have them register everyone who owns weapons as well as units.
13 And when he said: They should organise Territorial Defence, and
14 if the JNA is there, they must be placed under command.
15 So this is Dr. Karadzic specifically instructing not only the
16 formation of Crisis Staffs, but what forces should be placed under their
17 command. You weren't there to hear that, were you?
18 A. No. But if it's a transcript, I have no reason to doubt the
19 contents and I don't see anything untoward in them. In the former
20 Yugoslavia and later on in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Republika Srpska, there
21 was the so-called concept of All People's Defence and social self
22 protection. All the socio-political communities from the local community
23 to the municipality to the republic to the federation had to have plans
24 for emergency situations, combat scenarios, et cetera. The political
25 organisations had to have them as well, such as the League of Communists.
1 Q. Mr. Sarac --
2 A. Later on when the --
3 Q. Mr. Sarac --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- you actually answered my question in one syllable when you
6 began speaking. And if you want to not stay here so long, perhaps we
7 could try and abbreviate this. And if you want to tell Dr. Karadzic any
8 of these things in his re-direct examination, you could feel free.
9 I want to go on to one last area and it's about the non-Serbs in
10 Pale. Is your evidence that all the citizens of Pale were treated
11 equally and that there were no distinctions made between Serbs and
13 A. From -- on the part of the municipal authorities, but not between
14 the municipal and republican --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure about the answer.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Do you think you could repeat that answer. The interpreter
18 didn't understand you.
19 A. By the authorities, from the municipal to the republican
20 authorities, no distinction was made and no discrimination took place
21 along those lines.
22 Q. But, you know, you've already said it's not out of the question
23 that they were threatened; right?
24 A. Mind you, you have to look into the specific historical
25 situation. At that time we had 12.500 refugees at Pale. At one point --
1 or previously the policemen were always in charge of neighbourhoods and
2 knew what was going on. At this point in time, this was not the case
3 anymore. I know that there was some private groups that went around and
4 threatened people. What I'm stating is that this was not the official
5 authorities. I know that even at one meeting of the Crisis Staff,
6 Mr. Coro raised this issue about a man whose name was not mentioned and
7 the representative of the police station said that there were people
8 coming at Pale in uniform from elsewhere and other municipalities. So
9 there could have been cases like that one. What I'm claiming with
10 certainty is that nobody from the Pale police station was responsible for
11 such conduct.
12 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you is that life for the non-Serbs in
13 Pale - and this Chamber has heard it - life for the non-Serbs was
14 actually a misery. They were harassed and threatened by the Bosnian Serb
15 police. They were harassed and threatened and assaulted by
16 paramilitaries, special units who could do whatever they wanted, but they
17 were known people from the area including Rajko Kusic. They couldn't
18 travel. They had no TV. They had no phone lines. They couldn't even go
19 into some shops. Life for them was a misery, and they had been
20 complaining about it to municipal authorities for months; right?
21 A. There were complaints made. The municipal authorities tried to
22 help with this as best they could. Throughout the time they were at
23 Pale, we had excellent communication with them. We helped them as far as
24 we were able to. However, I tell you, in a situation where we had
25 12.000 refugees at Pale and there was the peculiarity, there were
1 refugees from Pofalici, a number of whom had been killed and nobody has
2 been held to account for that, it was impossible to keep things under
3 control. As for the domestic police forces and the domestic population,
4 the local population, I can claim with absolute certainty that conduct on
5 their part was proper and decent. There were even quite touching scenes
6 when these people were leaving Pale. I'm sure that you must have heard
7 about it.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat his last sentence.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
10 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your last sentence, Mr. Sarac.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that when Muslims were
12 leaving Pale, there were moving scenes where their Serbian neighbours
13 were seeing them off, kissing them, saying good-bye, and this is not
14 something when it came to one -- the one side, the second side, or the
15 third side, this is not something that was ever experienced elsewhere in
16 the country.
17 THE ACCUSED: And in line 20 on previous page, it had been said
18 in Pofalici had been killed up to 300 Serbs.
19 JUDGE KWON: You overlapped with the interpretation.
20 THE ACCUSED: I think it is now in the transcript. In line 20,
21 the witness said: Refugees from Pofalici where up to 300 Serbs had been
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
24 MS. EDGERTON:
25 Q. Now, in these desperate conditions when republican leader
1 Nikola Koljevic tells the members of the non-Serb community: It doesn't
2 matter what you want, that you want to stay on living here, it doesn't
3 matter what you want, but the Serbs don't want to continue living with
4 you here. That --
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a reference, please.
6 MS. EDGERTON: P733, paragraph 38, page 7, pages 12 and 13 in
7 your language, Dr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown this,
10 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps Dr. Karadzic could do this in his
11 re-direct examination --
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: -- if he would like to.
14 Q. When they get -- when the non-Serbs get told that by a republican
15 leader, living in these desperate conditions, that leaves them with no
16 choice about where they might find safety and security. They have no
17 confidence when the leader tells them that he doesn't want to be living
18 with them anymore, that they're going to be able to live safe and
19 protected, can they? They have no confidence?
20 A. You saw the letter by the Pale Crisis Staff addressing the
21 Muslims. The Crisis Staff did everything in its power to help these
22 people, to provide them with supplies and everything else. As for the
23 statement by late Professor Koljevic, I really cannot believe that he
24 said this. It's an expressional humanist, a Shakespearologist, who spoke
25 English better than an English lord. I would really like to hear a
1 recording of this statement if it exists. Never in his life did
2 Nikola Koljevic state something like this nor did I ever hear him say
3 this. It could only be hearsay evidence, nothing else.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do believe it would be fair if
5 the witness were told who said this or shown it --
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you can show his statement.
7 Yes, shall we continue.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Just for a couple of seconds more.
9 Your Honours, your indulgence.
10 Q. It's fair that the non-Serbs in Pale -- it's fair to say that the
11 non-Serbs in Pale were actually left with no choice about whether they
12 could stay or go, isn't that the case, given all the conditions that
13 you've described and you've agreed to in your testimony?
14 A. Mind you, the economic situation was disastrous. Food was in
15 short supply, but whatever there was, was shared around. Most of it went
16 to the refugees as well as to the local population. There was no
17 discrimination on that score, I assure you. That it was nice living in
18 Pale at the time, well, certainly not because in that case we would not
19 have seen as many Serbs leaving the area.
20 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please wait for the
22 interpretation to end.
23 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat. You're delaying it.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 8, the witness said it was
1 shared amongst everyone, not shared around. [In English] To everyone.
2 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue. Thank you.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. Mr. Sarac, the non-Serbs didn't have any real choice about where
5 they could stay -- whether they could stay or go, did they?
6 A. You see, the freedom of movement is guaranteed under the
7 constitution. We were aware of the sensitivity of the situation. There
8 were dozens of delegations of Muslims coming and asking that they be
9 allowed to leave to Sarajevo until the situation got stabilised. A
10 Municipal Assembly was held. The meeting lasted the entire day, and
11 ultimately this conclusion that you referred to was issued, which
12 reiterated what the document stated, that the citizens of Muslim and
13 Croat ethnicity who so wished be allowed to change their place of
14 residence in an organised fashion and that the police station should
15 facilitate the implementation of the decision. The majority submitted a
16 request to this effect. Let me just emphasise that it had to do with the
17 change of place of residence, not domicile or permanent residence.
18 Residence is temporary. Domicile is permanent --
19 Q. Mr. Sarac --
20 A. -- so their place of permanent residence would remain in Pale,
21 whereas their place of residence would be the place of their choosing.
22 Q. I'd like you for a second for this last question to stop taking a
23 legalistic approach and put yourself in the shoes of your non-Serb
24 neighbours and what they were experiencing at the time, because you were
25 there and you saw it and you heard about it and you've talked about it in
1 your statement. You've said how difficult it was. They had no real
2 choice anymore, did they? All they were looking for was safety and
3 security. They had no real choice about whether or not they could stay
4 or go; right?
5 A. I repeat, in Pale at that point in time it wasn't easy for
6 anyone, for Serbs or Muslims. These people thought that it was the
7 better choice to go to the Federation, and that happened elsewhere too.
8 That is to say that there was no organised action to expel these people,
9 I mean to expel them. They left according to the procedure, about which
10 you have documents. That it was easy for us, no, it wasn't easy for them
11 or for us. The situation was very bad for all citizens of Pale.
12 MS. EDGERTON: I'm done, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, how much do you need for your
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I'll be done before
16 3.00, considerably before 3.00.
17 JUDGE KWON: We need to change the tape in five minutes and which
18 take about 15 minutes.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE KWON: In order to continue, we need some break. We better
21 have a break for 15 minutes now and continue for your re-examination, but
22 there are a couple of things I'd like to deal with.
23 First, Mr. Robinson, the Defence's motion for the -- I forgot the
24 name, to request the -- your request that Mr. Jankovic's counsel to be
25 present in the courtroom is granted, Aleksandar Aleksic.
1 And second, the Chamber is seized of the motion -- Defence motion
2 for subpoena to Witness KDZ145 or alternative orders.
3 Mr. Tieger, I know that it is your practice that -- not to
4 respond to the Defence subpoena motion, but given that this motion
5 includes "alternative orders," the Chamber would be assisted to be
6 hearing from you, if you could file it by close of business on Monday.
7 Thank you.
8 That said, we'll continue at 3.00 to conclude this witness's
10 --- Recess taken at 2.44 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 3.02 p.m.
12 JUDGE MORRISON: For the remainder of this session, we are going
13 to be sitting under Rule 15 bis, due to Judge Kwon's absence for his
14 urgent personal business.
15 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] We consulted a bit and we were wondering whether
19 more questions should be put about everything that was read to you, and
20 things that were omitted, but we're giving up and we're just putting two
21 questions to you.
22 Were there any non-Serbs who stayed on in Pale --
23 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, I think that's very sensible. I
24 mean, one of the golden rules about re-examination is it's not necessary
25 to get the witness to repeat things that he said in cross-examination.
1 Obviously the object of re-examination is to clarify matters or have
2 explanatory matters, but simple repetition isn't going to really assist
3 the Court.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency, but the general
5 observation is based on this assertion that non-Serbs had no choice.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My question is whether there were any non-Serbs who chose to stay
8 in Pale during the war?
9 A. All the Pale Croats stayed in Pale. As far as I know, only one
10 Croat woman left, a few Muslims were left there too, and some were even
11 members of the armed forces. I remember, for example, Turkovic was.
12 Also the commander of the garrison in Pale was Anton Sinkovic who was a
13 Croat from Zagorje.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sarac, thank you for having come. Thank you for
15 having testified.
16 A. Thank you, too.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Anything arising? Anything further today?
18 MS. EDGERTON: No.
19 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Robinson, anything further before we
21 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, yes, Mr. President. I just wanted to --
22 I convinced Dr. Karadzic not to ask the witness about this, but I would
23 just like to put on the record that the citation to the statement of
24 Mr. Koljevic that was made by Ms. Edgerton was to an amalgamated witness
25 statement of Sulejman Cancalo [phoen]. So I thought the impression might
1 have been created that this was some kind of statement which we had a
2 recording of, but that's not the case. So I just thought it was
3 important to point out that without the necessity of putting that to the
5 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
6 Thank you, Mr. Witness, for coming to The Hague to give your
7 testimony. The Court is grateful to you for your assistance. You're now
8 free to go and a safe journey home, but we will rise all together and the
9 court will be adjourned until 9.00 on Monday morning.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.06 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of
12 February, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.