Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13123

1 Thursday, 27 January, 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.41 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I understand there is

9 some matters you want to raise.

10 MR. NICE: Just short administrative matters,

11 and probably better raised first thing in the morning

12 rather than at the end of the afternoon. I suspect we

13 are not going to have a full day's evidence in any

14 event, and therefore better if we organise these things

15 now. It will only take a few minutes, one way or

16 another.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MR. NICE: I don't know if we are in private

19 session already.

20 JUDGE MAY: We want to go into private

21 session.

22 MR. NICE: I think it probably safer to go

23 into private session.

24 JUDGE MAY: Before we do, tomorrow, unless

25 there is any objection, we shall sit at 9 and finish

Page 13124

1 at 12.30.

2 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

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24 [Open session]

25 MR. NICE: So there is one more witness about

Page 13127

1 a checkpoint. He's been -- his statement has been

2 served on the Defence some time ago, and I've notified

3 them that he is, of course, a witness we intend to

4 call.

5 Last point, rather more substantial in a

6 sense: There are a number of witnesses who, in our

7 last amended overview of witnesses, we indicated were

8 witnesses whose transcripts could and should be

9 adduced, and who needn't give evidence directly. For

10 example, there is a man called Remi Landry, whose

11 transcript is identified. We've had no response, and

12 there are a number of witnesses here as to our proposal

13 made clear on that amended overview. We've had no

14 response as to whether those transcripts can be read,

15 and it's becoming pressing that we do have a response.

16 JUDGE MAY: It may be helpful if you would,

17 today, identify those who you wish to read.

18 MR. NICE: Certainly.

19 JUDGE MAY: So that the Defence can know.

20 MR. NICE: Well, the Chamber will remember

21 the tabulated document, the amended overview.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I have it.

23 MR. NICE: And they are all there.

24 JUDGE MAY: It's dated the 10th of November.

25 MR. NICE: That's right. And they are all

Page 13128

1 identified there.

2 JUDGE MAY: I am not sure, looking at it, I

3 can follow which one it is. It may be simplest if you

4 just identify those.

5 MR. NICE: Very well. Yes, it's not to be

6 called transcript; I think NTBT, but never mind. The

7 next witness is a witness who has given evidence

8 before, on two different occasions, and under two

9 different settings. I am happy to say that, and

10 probably much to his credit, he doesn't seek

11 protection. And I'll call him now to the stand.

12 MR. STEIN: May it please the Court. May I

13 have one moment?

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. STEIN: Relative to the transcript

16 witnesses, please just give us a list and we'll

17 respond. I can't read it from the overview.

18 Relative to the new witness they want to add,

19 that will be in the same situation as Mr. Beese. We

20 were given his statement on December 9. Maybe we can

21 argue both of those tomorrow.

22 MR. NICE: Or even this afternoon, if we run

23 out of evidence.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

25 MR. NICE: Because the producer of the maps

Page 13129

1 is not in a position, I think, to give the evidence

2 today or tomorrow, and the witness who can assist us

3 with the overview is not available today, but will be

4 available tomorrow, if that's the position reach.

5 MR. STEIN: The other two matters are there

6 is apparently a video, fly-by video of the valley that

7 they want introduced. We have not seen it. We need to

8 see it and go over it with Mr. Kordic. To do that

9 requires some co-operation with the detention centre and

10 some advance planning. The sooner we can get it, the

11 better. He's clearly in a better position to determine

12 what it is than we are.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, is that video

14 available?

15 MR. NICE: There's certainly a copy of it

16 available, and I'll make it available to them as soon

17 as I can. Mid-morning break, I should think, is a

18 probability. I'll check with Ms. Bauer, who is dealing

19 with it this morning.

20 MR. STEIN: When we get it, I understand

21 we'll need some intervention from the Court relative to

22 the detention centre, but I'll work the details of that

23 with the legal officer.

24 Last but not least, would Your Honour please

25 consider that we now have about three and a half linear

Page 13130

1 feet of documents to review from the Prosecution, with

2 more coming.

3 Would you also please consider that as a

4 result of the ex parte applications, we're starting to

5 get that which we sought for some time from third

6 parties and other people involved in producing

7 documents and things relative to the former Yugoslavia,

8 and of course we're busily working on a motion to

9 dismiss for the close of the case, my point being, to

10 throw another egg on the pile, the more time Your

11 Honour can give us in the schedule between the close of

12 the Prosecution's case and the beginning of our case

13 would be greatly appreciated.

14 JUDGE MAY: We have that in mind.

15 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may, just for

16 the record, the first matter my colleague raised, the

17 issue of the tape, we do not have a position on that

18 issue, since it is irrelevant for my client.

19 As to the second issue raised related to the

20 tapes which will show us the Lasva Valley, I of course

21 join what my colleague said, because it will be very

22 difficult for us to make any comment on that material

23 unless the client will see it himself. That is a

24 critical point.

25 JUDGE MAY: No doubt you can make

Page 13131

1 arrangements, too, with the Prosecution to have a copy,

2 if there is one, or share one with Mr. Kordic's

3 counsel.

4 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, sir.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]


7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

8 Your Honours.

9 With regard to this witness, I do not mind

10 him being led through a number of questions, except 8,

11 14, 16 and 17. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

13 MR. NICE: May the witness come in?

14 Just harking back to the question of

15 transcript witnesses, I thought I had prepared myself a

16 little better for this than I was allowed to recall.

17 The very last two pages of the amended overview of

18 witnesses, pages 21 and 22, have those transcript

19 witnesses extracted and separately listed, so I'll make

20 that available, in a copy form, if they haven't got the

21 document with them.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the

24 declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

Page 13132

1 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

2 and nothing but the truth.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a

6 seat.

7 Examined by Mr. Nice:

8 Q. Give us your full name, please.

9 A. Ibrahim Nuhagic.

10 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, before the conflict, were you

11 resident in Ocehnici, which was a purely Muslim town in

12 the Busovaca municipality?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I think there was some nine Muslim families

15 there in a total of some eight houses.

16 A. Quite true, eight households. How many

17 members, I wouldn't really know.

18 MR. NICE: May the witness have on the ELMO I

19 think the only exhibit in his evidence, which is

20 Z1694. It is an extract from a map with which we are

21 familiar, and if we look at the bottom of the map off

22 the screen at the moment -- if the usher could help us;

23 thank you very much -- Mr. Nuhagic, do we see

24 "Ocehnici" written across an area close to Donja

25 Polje?

Page 13133

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was Ocehnici close to the Draga barracks?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Under whose control were they before the

5 conflict?

6 A. The HVO's.

7 Q. On the 27th of January of 1993, did HVO

8 soldiers come to your village, they searched the

9 village, and did they confiscate all weapons, including

10 hunting rifles as well as machine guns?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How were they dressed?

13 A. Camouflage uniforms, HVO flashes.

14 Q. Did they have anything on their faces?

15 A. The majority of them had masks.

16 Q. Were all the men in the village detained and

17 taken, via the police station at Busovaca, to Kaonik

18 camp, which we can see at the top of the map?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During that time, that is, the time of

21 passage from Ocehnici to Kaonik, did you have to keep

22 your arms behind your heads?

23 A. We did, all the way to the camp.

24 Q. Were you mistreated in some way and were you

25 the subject of threats?

Page 13134

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was the mistreatment and what were the

3 threats?

4 A. The mistreatment meant beating. The threats,

5 that they would cut off our ears or slit our throats.

6 But mostly blows all the way to the bus, and we could

7 not get on to the bus without being hit, without being

8 struck by them. And then again as we were getting off

9 the bus, they would beat us once again, because there

10 were two lines of soldiers, soldiers lined up in two

11 lines, and as we got off, they would beat us.

12 Q. I think there was a batch of soldiers who

13 came from a vehicle, which had a mounted gun on it,

14 which were particularly bad at the beating; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes. At the bus stop in Busovaca.

17 Q. Incidentally, when these things were

18 happening in Busovaca, were there pedestrians on the

19 street able to see what was going on or not?

20 A. It was night-time. There were only HVO

21 troops.

22 Q. Thank you. In Kaonik, is it the case that

23 you were not beaten, but that you heard other prisoners

24 screaming?

25 A. Yes, because I was beaten on the way and my

Page 13135

1 back was hurt.

2 Q. Did you learn of other prisoners being taken

3 to dig trenches?

4 A. Most of them went to dig trenches, or most

5 all of their able-bodied, except for myself, because I

6 had been hit, and a few people under age who did not

7 go.

8 Q. Did the International Committee of the Red

9 Cross intervene, and were the prisoners, including

10 yourself, released at the beginning of February?

11 A. Yes, they did come, but they were not

12 released immediately.

13 Q. But eventually?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In April, namely, on the 16th of April, could

16 you both hear and see shooting taking place near to

17 where you lived?

18 A. Well, one could see from Kula, Polom,

19 Solakovici, and other places, that is where there was

20 fire.

21 Q. Did you know or know of a man called Mirko

22 Cosic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was his function at the time?

25 A. He had a unit, an intervention unit called

Page 13136

1 Jokers.

2 Q. Did you see that man in April of 1993, on the

3 television?

4 A. Yes, at the bus stop.

5 Q. What was he saying on the broadcast you saw?

6 A. Those announcers, or cameramen, asked him

7 whether the troops, whether those fighters obeyed him.

8 And he said they obeyed him very well indeed and were

9 doing their job. And he mentioned Polom, Kula,

10 Loncari, as those who had done their job particularly

11 well. And the cameraman asked him, what was that job,

12 what did they do, and he said with time will show.

13 Q. On the 19th of April of 1993, were you in

14 your village when soldiers came again?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How were they dressed? What units did they

17 come from?

18 A. All I know is this Nikica Grubesic was their

19 chief commander. But what were they, what were those

20 units? They were HVO fighters.

21 Q. How were they dressed?

22 A. Camouflage uniforms. Military with HVO

23 patches.

24 Q. Did you say anything about masks or not?

25 A. Masks, yes.

Page 13137

1 Q. How did they attack on this occasion?

2 A. Well, they simply came, entered the village

3 and, whenever they found somebody, they killed. They

4 immediately set houses on fire, killed the livestock in

5 stables. Those who managed to escape, they did, but

6 they slew all others they found. And my neighbours,

7 those who survived, they were in a shelter, and so that

8 they couldn't find them.

9 Q. When they set alight the houses, how did they

10 do that?

11 A. They mostly used incinerating ammunition.

12 Q. Where were you precisely at the time of this

13 attack?

14 A. I was -- it just happened that I was in an

15 outside Nuhagici. And as I was coming out, my niece,

16 standing outside the front door of my house, told me,

17 "Uncle, get away, so that you do not come with us."

18 And that is what I did. I began to flee and they

19 opened fire after me. I don't know how many bullets

20 they fired. But I began to run in eights, that is, to

21 run in zigzag, so that I fell. And that Croat fighter

22 who was firing at me thought that I -- that he had hit

23 me and that I had been wounded.

24 Q. I think, in due course, you returned to your

25 own house; is that correct?

Page 13138

1 A. Yes, that is correct. I went back to my own

2 house at night, when everything was quiet, when nothing

3 could be heard, and it was dark. That's when I went

4 back to my own house, to see the -- my family members

5 who had been killed: my mother, my sister, my

6 brothers, two daughters, who had stayed on in my

7 house. But when I got to the house, you could only see

8 the embers. They had tried to flee from the house, but

9 there was a burst of gunfire and they were hit from the

10 house. So that they burnt to death.

11 I have seen -- I saw a great deal of trouble

12 and had a very hard time putting out what remained of

13 the fire. My uncle turned up and he told me to take

14 care of myself, because what had happened, had

15 happened, and could not be put right. But I thought,

16 when I saw these victims of mine, I wished that I had

17 been among them.

18 Q. And you listed the family members. Your wife

19 was --

20 A. Yes. My mother, my wife, my sister, and my

21 brother's two daughters.

22 Q. The uncle who spoke to you, did he tell you

23 that he had been trying to get the livestock out of his

24 burning barn and had been shot?

25 A. Yes, from my yard. They shot at him when he

Page 13139

1 turned up in his own yard to go to his shed to save the

2 cattle. And they shot at him and wounded him.

3 Q. Did he tell you that his relations had been

4 killed by a burst of fire when they tried to run away

5 from their house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was it you who heard the HVO soldiers looking

8 for him, asking where he had hidden, or did he tell you

9 about that?

10 A. Yes, I heard, because I was down by my house

11 and his house.

12 Q. In the course of this attack, did you hear

13 soldiers speaking to each other, and if so, what names

14 did you hear them using?

15 A. Well, most of them were nicknames, like Zara,

16 Kole. So there were nicknames: Cigo and others. They

17 were all nicknames, and I know them by heart, all these

18 nicknames, and the real surnames.

19 Q. Did you know any of them as individuals? Did

20 you actually know who they were?

21 A. Well, I knew them from before, but as they

22 had masks on, as they were wearing masks --

23 Q. So the man Zarko, was he also known as Cigo

24 or Cigo?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 13140

1 Q. The man Zeljo, who was he?

2 A. Zeljo Vujica.

3 Q. Was there a man, Zarko Cosic, or was that the

4 same name?

5 A. Kologranic, not Cosic.

6 Q. And there was Mladjo?

7 A. Kologranic.

8 Q. Was he known by another name as well?

9 A. No. Mostly he was known as Kole.

10 Q. Was there a Zarko Kologranic, or not?

11 A. Well, those are the three brothers, yes:

12 Kole, Ranko and Zeljo.

13 Q. Before this attack, had you heard of

14 something that that man Zarko Cosic had said?

15 A. Well, several days before that, he was in the

16 village. And he said, if anything happens to any

17 member of his family, if he were to be wounded or

18 anything, our village would be burnt.

19 Q. To whom did he say that?

20 A. He told my sister that, my sister that was

21 killed.

22 Q. And I think following that attack, you spent

23 some three months in the house of a relation in

24 Busovaca.

25 A. In Busovaca and Skradno, yes.

Page 13141

1 Q. So you were, I think, expelled from where you

2 were living on at least three times, or three times, by

3 the HVO?

4 A. Yes, the HVO.

5 Q. I want you to tell us, please, how you

6 learned of who had done this attack. Don't tell us

7 immediately who it was, who, as you understood it, was

8 in charge of the attack. Tell us, first of all, how

9 you heard about it. From whom did you learn who was

10 responsible for the attack?

11 A. For the attack, well, it could have been none

12 other than Dusko Grubesic, who was in command with a

13 unit. And Dusko, we know who Dusko receives his

14 assignments from.

15 Q. Well, before we come to those names, really,

16 I wanted you to tell the Judges how you learned about

17 it or how you knew that to be the case. Just explain

18 how you would know that. Is it something that somebody

19 told you or was it something that you saw yourself?

20 Just explain it so that they can follow.

21 A. Well, I don't know -- I didn't actually

22 understand your question.

23 Q. My fault. The Judges will want to know how

24 it is that you knew who was in charge of this attack.

25 Can you help us? Is it something that somebody else

Page 13142

1 told you or was it something you could work out

2 yourself from what you saw of the soldiers? Just

3 explain it, please.

4 A. Well, the only thing that I saw was on

5 television. I saw Zoran Maric when he said that in the

6 area, only one plant should be allowed to grow. And we

7 couldn't understand that until the events that took

8 place happened.

9 Q. When did you -- this is paragraph 18, Your

10 Honours -- when did you see Zoran Maric, who I think

11 was the president of the Busovaca municipality, when

12 did you see him saying that?

13 A. Well, it was when the soldiers took their

14 oath at the Busovaca stadium. That was when he read

15 that out, what should be done, what they should do.

16 And that's the only thing that I remember, because I

17 didn't watch television, nor did I have time to watch

18 it, because I was outside mostly farming, and of course

19 much more of that could have been seen had I had the

20 time to watch television.

21 Q. Now, you tell us that Dusko Grubesic was

22 responsible. Why do you say that? How do you know

23 that?

24 A. Well, he was the commander of that unit.

25 Q. Very well. And how do you know that it was

Page 13143

1 that unit? Name the unit, please, and then: How do

2 you know that it was that unit that committed these

3 killings?

4 A. Well, there was no other unit.

5 Q. How near was this unit to Ocehnici at the

6 time?

7 A. Well, the command in Busovaca was, say, two

8 and a half to three kilometres away.

9 Q. Do you understand why Dusko Grubesic ordered

10 the attack, what the reason was?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. Do you know of any other names of people who

13 were involved in this attack as leaders, commanders, or

14 whatever else?

15 A. Well, only Pasko Ljubicic. That was the

16 leader of the group in the village.

17 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. I learned that later on.

19 Q. From whom did you learn it?

20 A. Well, from my own -- well, my people and some

21 of the soldiers that I was acquainted with. We would

22 meet on the street and we would sort of chat.

23 Q. When you say "some of their soldiers," is

24 this soldiers who told you they had been involved in

25 the attack or was this soldiers who told you they had

Page 13144

1 learned themselves about the attack?

2 A. No, they did not take part. The ones that

3 did not take part in the attack.

4 Q. Very well. And in which group or unit were

5 the soldiers who told you these things?

6 A. Well, they were in that same unit of that

7 Nikica Grubesic person.

8 Q. Is that the Zrinjski Brigade?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Was anything said about a connection between

11 something that had happened at the Draga barracks and

12 this attack?

13 A. I didn't understand your question.

14 Q. My fault again. When you heard about what

15 had happened --

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

17 I apologise for interrupting, but we have a comment to

18 make with respect to this.

19 We are dealing with multiple hearsay. The

20 witness answered this question. He said he did not

21 know the reasons why the commander issued orders for an

22 attack on the village. He said that quite certainly,

23 and now I have the feeling that they wish to bring him

24 back to the same question. So that is my objection.

25 Thank you.

Page 13145

1 MR. NICE: We're dealing with a witness who

2 has understandable difficulties in following the

3 technicalities of question-answering in court, and I

4 hope the question that I asked is not in any sense

5 offensively leading or tendentious and gives him an

6 opportunity to refresh his memory of something that I

7 have reason to believe he will be able to tell us.

8 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think the fairest

9 question is to repeat the earlier question: "Do you

10 know any reason that there may have been for this

11 attack?"

12 MR. NICE: Very well.

13 Q. You heard the learned Judge's question,

14 Mr. Nuhagic. Do you know of any reason that there may

15 have been for this attack?

16 A. The reason is that -- and we should be quite

17 clear about that. It was not only my village, but this

18 happened elsewhere as well, that it should have been

19 cleansed of the Muslims.

20 MR. NICE: I think I'm going to move on,

21 then, Your Honour. Paragraph 14 in the summary --

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

23 I apologise once again for interrupting, but with

24 respect to this particular paragraph, we also say that

25 this is multiple hearsay. We consider that in this

Page 13146

1 case, too, the provisions of Article 80(D) should be

2 applied, because I think that in order to ensure a fair

3 trial, that is far more important than the probative

4 value of this particular paragraph. 89(D).

5 JUDGE MAY: Let's hear the foundation for the

6 evidence.

7 MR. NICE: Yes. I think the paragraph, as

8 drafted, may be a little misleading, and it may be the

9 material is rather more direct than appears.

10 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, do you know a woman called

11 Hasija Beslic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Just "yes" or "no" to this question. Was

14 there an occasion that you can recall when you were

15 talking about her -- with her about what are called

16 safety papers or papers that had been issued for

17 Muslims? And again, just answer the question "yes" or

18 "no." Was there an occasion when you had a discussion

19 with her about those papers?

20 A. Yes. I had that document too, and

21 regardless, everybody had those documents.

22 Q. Did you and she see and talk to someone else

23 about those papers on the occasion that you discussed

24 matters with her?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13147

1 Q. Who was that person?

2 A. Dario Kordic.

3 Q. So now approaching it in a little more

4 detail, the papers were issued by who and for what

5 purpose?

6 A. Dario Kordic.

7 Q. And what were the papers supposed to do?

8 What were they supposed to achieve?

9 A. Well, when the soldiers would come in the

10 evening or during the day, we were supposed to show

11 those papers so that they should not disturb us; that

12 is to say, the soldiers.

13 Q. In your experience, were the papers effective

14 in what they set out to do?

15 A. No.

16 Q. The conversation you had with Hasija Beslic,

17 what was the topic of the conversation?

18 A. Well, we talked, and I was present when --

19 with Dario Kordic, because they knew one another in the

20 same company. They worked in the Vatrostalna company

21 together.

22 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... and

23 Dario Kordic knew one another?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what did she say to him about the papers,

Page 13148

1 and what, if anything, did he reply?

2 A. Well, she said that the papers, the documents

3 were worthless, that they weren't -- that they were

4 useless. It was -- they weren't serving their

5 purpose. And he said that they would be worth

6 something because what had happened would not happen

7 again.

8 Q. Did she give him any examples of what had

9 happened, in contravention to the protection that the

10 papers should have given?

11 A. Yes. She told him that they were worthless,

12 because soldiers still came up and expelled people from

13 houses, and would send several families out of a

14 house. And he said that this would not happen in the

15 future, but the next night, and the night after that,

16 and after that, things were repeated.

17 Q. At whose house; your house or at houses of

18 other people?

19 A. Well, my relations' houses. And I was

20 expelled from the three houses: from the first, the

21 second and the third, all my relatives' houses. And

22 from the third house, we were all expelled and went to

23 Skradno. We were taken there, actually.

24 Q. When you were expelled, was anything said

25 about the report or complaint that you'd made to Dario

Page 13149

1 Kordic?

2 A. Well, the soldiers said -- told us, when they

3 came to expel us from our houses, they said, "You

4 complain to Kordic, to Dario Kordic. He gave you

5 security papers, whereas in fact he allowed us to do

6 what we are doing now."

7 Q. Those soldiers, do you know anything about

8 the unit from which they came?

9 A. Well, the unit of Dusko Grubesic, Zrinjski.

10 Q. This whole incident, the incident with Hasija

11 Beslic and the couple of nights that followed, roughly

12 when was that? Can you help us? What month, if you

13 can. If you can't, don't guess.

14 A. Well, it was in June, perhaps the beginning

15 of July, thereabouts.

16 Q. In August 1993, were you taken from where you

17 were then living to the village of Skradno?

18 A. They took me and my relatives, yes, three of

19 my relatives, and with their families.

20 Q. While in Skradno, was the area patrolled by

21 the HVO?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And while there, were men taken to dig

24 trenches in Kula, Strane and Bare, to your knowledge?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I am aware of that. Yes.

Page 13150

1 Q. You yourself, were you taken trench digging,

2 or were you allowed to stay in Skradno?

3 A. I was injured, and, as I was getting old in

4 age, they didn't take me, but they took the younger

5 ones.

6 Q. Throughout this period of time, did you watch

7 television from time to time?

8 A. No, we didn't. We weren't able to because we

9 didn't have any electricity; we didn't have all of

10 that.

11 Q. Again, probably my fault for the way I asked

12 the question. The whole period of time, starting from

13 before the first detention, did you see Busovaca

14 television at all?

15 A. Yes. Yes, in 1993, and in 1992. It was

16 expressly Busovaca television, from 4.00 to 6.00 in the

17 afternoon. And there was nothing else to watch. It

18 was HTV, Croatian television.

19 Q. Did you see Kordic on the television, ever?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who were the other leading political or

22 military figures that you recall seeing on the

23 television?

24 A. Dario Kordic, Blaskic, Tihomir Blaskic, Ignac

25 Kostroman, Anto Valenta.

Page 13151

1 Q. What position or rank did Kordic have, so far

2 as you could judge, in the HVO?

3 A. Well, it was like this, you see. He would go

4 step by step upwards. I didn't hear his rank, but I

5 heard tell that he came up to the rank of colonel, rose

6 to the rank of colonel.

7 Q. You say it was a step-by-step progress.

8 Where do you recall his starting? And in what

9 organisation?

10 A. Well, he started from a municipal clerk, an

11 ordinary municipal clerk.

12 Q. Were you at any stage aware of his

13 involvement in any political party, and if so, which?

14 A. I know before, in the company he worked in,

15 he was a member of the Communist Party.

16 Q. And on the television, on Busovaca

17 television, was he associated with any political party

18 or grouping?

19 A. No. Later on, in 1993, and in 1992, the

20 middle of 1992, when there was all the bombing by the

21 former army, the Serbian army, then he started wearing

22 a uniform and became a military man.

23 Q. In the course of the television programmes,

24 that's the Busovaca television programmes, was there

25 anything said generally about the state of Croatia

Page 13152

1 itself that you can recall, or not?

2 A. I don't remember. The only thing that I do

3 remember is that when we were sent off to the camps,

4 some of the soldiers would shout out that this was

5 Croatia.

6 Q. Do you recall a particular news broadcast

7 where something was said about potatoes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was this, and who was speaking?

10 A. It was in the month of June, the beginning of

11 June, when Dario said that we should plant as many

12 potatoes as possible. But when the time for harvest

13 comes, then it would be decided who would reap the

14 benefits of the harvest.

15 Q. And the potatoes that were being planted had

16 been provided by whom; do you recall?

17 A. From humanitarian aid, some of them would

18 come.

19 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. If you

20 wait there, you may be asked some further questions.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

22 JUDGE MAY: Go ahead.

23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

24 was waiting for your leave, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, may I introduce myself. I am

Page 13153

1 Mitko Naumovski, an attorney from Zagreb, one of the

2 Defence counsel for Mr. Kordic, and I have a number of

3 questions for you.

4 In view of the fact that we understand one

5 another when we speak, wait a few minutes before giving

6 your answer, for my question to be interpreted into

7 English and French. And I will do the same.

8 Mr. Nuhagic, a few brief questions regarding

9 the actual position of your village. You lived in the

10 village of Ocenici, didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did your part of the village have a

13 special name, that is Nuhagici?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In this part of the village there were about

16 eight houses in all, Muslim households?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in another part of the village, another

19 part of the same village of Ocenici, who lived there?

20 A. The Vujica.

21 Q. So they were Croatian families?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many houses did they have?

24 A. Four houses. Those that were closest to my

25 part of the village.

Page 13154

1 Q. To the west of your village was a large

2 forest area called Polom, was there not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that the HVO defence

5 lines went along the western edges towards the woods in

6 Polom in January '93?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In view of the geographic position of the

9 village, there wasn't a traditional front line, but

10 there were just patrols?

11 A. No. It was a classic front line.

12 Q. Do you mean to say that there were troops

13 there, stationed permanently?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me, please, in January '93, how many

16 young men from Nuhagici had left the village, before

17 the events that you described?

18 A. Five.

19 Q. And those five men, can we agree that they

20 were members of the Territorial Defence?

21 A. While we were in the village, they kept guard

22 duty, yes.

23 Q. And in January they left the village to go to

24 Kacuni?

25 A. Yes, to Fojnica, Kacuni, depending where

Page 13155

1 people had relatives, family members, relations.

2 Q. Would you agree with me that in January,

3 therefore, before the events of the 27th, on the other

4 side of the front line held by the HVO, were soldiers

5 belonging to the Territorial Defence, who held

6 positions facing the HVO positions?

7 A. I don't know that, because I was in an area

8 controlled by the HVO.

9 Q. I know that you were not a military person,

10 as you have already told us, but perhaps you can answer

11 a question regardless of your lack of military

12 expertise. In the course of the night, would these

13 young men come to your village in secret?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Tell me, please, very briefly, a couple of

16 questions regarding your detention in the Kaonik

17 prison. Since you were injured, you were taken to see

18 a doctor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You were taken to the medical centre in

21 Busovaca, were you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During your detention in Kaonik, nobody hurt

24 you, and they treated you relatively well, didn't they?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13156

1 Q. I think that you have already told us that

2 you were not taken to dig trenches.

3 A. I did not, because I was injured. I went to

4 see a doctor, and then I was taken back to the

5 barracks.

6 But I didn't dare say what had happened to

7 me. I lied. I said that I had fallen in the barn when

8 I was feeding the cattle. If I had said the truth,

9 then I would have suffered in the same way as the other

10 detainees. I would have been beaten again.

11 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, nobody told you that you should

12 lie; that was your own decision?

13 A. I could not -- I couldn't even go to see the

14 doctor on my own to tell the doctor the truth. I was

15 not alone.

16 Q. Very well. Let us go on to another topic,

17 and that is the attack in April, as you described it.

18 You mentioned a person called Zarko Cosic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we say of him, that he is, in a sense,

21 your neighbour?

22 A. He lived near Draga, near the road down

23 there.

24 Q. You said today what he told your sister a

25 couple of days prior to the events?

Page 13157

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can we agree that what he said was that he

3 would personally carry out the threat if anything

4 happened to any of his family?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you recognised him as one of the persons

7 who was in the village?

8 A. Yes, I recognised him, because he was known

9 by the nickname "Cigo" from before.

10 Q. Today you mentioned the surname "Grubesic,"

11 but you used two first names. You mentioned "Nikica"

12 and "Dusko." Do you have two different persons in

13 mind?

14 A. Possibly Dusko Grubesic. I may have used the

15 name "Nikica," but I meant "Dusko Grubesic."

16 Q. And who was Dusko Grubesic?

17 A. The commander of the unit.

18 Q. You mean of the Busovaca Brigade?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. And who is Nikica, then, Nikica

21 Grubesic?

22 A. I may have been confused.

23 Q. So you made a mistake?

24 A. Yes, it's possible that I made a mistake.

25 Q. Very well. If I understand you well, you

Page 13158

1 are -- it is your conclusion that the commander of the

2 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski in Busovaca Brigade gave the

3 orders for the attack. That is your own conclusion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Nobody told you that explicitly, that he had

6 given the order?

7 A. Surely, the soldiers wouldn't have themselves

8 made this thing up if they hadn't been authorised to do

9 what they did.

10 Q. So you're telling us now that your conclusion

11 is based on talks with various people following the

12 event in April '93?

13 A. [No audible response]

14 Q. Did you understand me?

15 A. I beg your pardon?

16 Q. I was saying -- let me repeat my question.

17 It is my mistake if you didn't understand me.

18 It is your view and your conclusion that

19 Dusko Grubesic issued that order on the basis of

20 conversations you had subsequently with various people?

21 A. Yes, because when the shell fell close to

22 Draga, when two persons were killed, Ivo Kristo said

23 that the shell was coming from our side, that is, from

24 above the Nuhagici village, and they started fleeing to

25 Tisovac. But near the command at Tisovac, they were

Page 13159

1 met and asked where they were going, and they said that

2 there were shells coming from Ocehnici and Nuhagici,

3 shells were coming aiming at Draga. Then Ivo Kristo

4 said that they should go back, that there would be no

5 more shells coming from Nuhagici.

6 Q. How do you know these things, please?

7 A. I know because my brother was listening to a

8 conversation when they turned them back from Busovaca.

9 He told me that this was what Ivo Kristo had said.

10 Q. And who told your brother?

11 A. He heard it himself.

12 Q. You mean he was present?

13 A. Yes. They were on the road, and his house

14 was next to the road.

15 Q. Tell me, please, when was this shelling of

16 the Draga barracks? When did it take place; on what

17 day?

18 A. It was the same day, on the 19th of April.

19 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, I understood what you had told

20 us about that event, but I must tell you that when you

21 made your statement to the Tribunal's investigators on

22 the 10th of September, 1995, your first official

23 statement to the investigators -- do you remember that

24 first interview? I assume you do. You said,

25 explicitly: "I read in a book that Dusko Grubesic was

Page 13160

1 the commander of the Busovaca HVO and that he had

2 ordered the attack on Ocehnici." You said this, that

3 you had read it in a book, in your statement. I can

4 show it to you.

5 A. That's quite possible.

6 Q. In view of these differences between what you

7 said in your previous statement and what you said

8 today, that in fact you don't know who had ordered the

9 attack or, rather, you don't know where you got the

10 information from?

11 A. [No audible response]

12 Q. Could you please answer my question? If you

13 didn't understand me, I can repeat it.

14 A. Yes, please repeat it.

15 Q. In view of the fact that you allow for the

16 possibility that you may have read that somewhere, can

17 you agree with what I'm saying, that actually you don't

18 know, with any precision, who had issued the order for

19 the attack on your village, but you simply don't know

20 who you heard it from?

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's consider whether

22 that's going to help us very much. We've got the

23 evidence that he said that on one occasion that he was

24 told this, and he said that he read it, it's possible

25 that he read it. Now, we've got the evidence, and it

Page 13161

1 doesn't seem to me that any further cross-examination

2 is going to take the case much further. If you would

3 like to move on.

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honour. I agree, we can move on.

6 Q. Just a couple of questions about your stay in

7 the village of Skradno.

8 Mr. Nuhagic, you were in the village of

9 Skradno from May until September of 1993; isn't that

10 so?

11 A. That's a mistake. Not from May but from the

12 end of June or after the second half of June that we

13 went to Skradno.

14 Q. But you said today "from August." Now you're

15 saying "the second half of June." But I have to tell

16 you that when you were interviewed or when you

17 testified as a witness in the Blaskic case, on page

18 5237, lines 2 to 4, asked by the Prosecutor, you

19 confirmed that you had been in Skradno roughly from May

20 to September 1993. That is a quotation from your

21 testimony in the Blaskic case.

22 A. I know that it was from the end of June. I

23 didn't write those things, so that -- I didn't take

24 note of those things so I could have the exact date. I

25 never knew any of this would happen and I should keep a

Page 13162

1 record. But the important thing is that I was there,

2 and from Busovaca I was taken to Skradno.

3 Q. If I understand you well, you are allowing

4 for the possibility that this may have been from May to

5 September, as you said earlier on, testifying in

6 Blaskic.

7 A. I do not allow for that possibility, because

8 I know I was sowing potatoes in Busovaca in June.

9 Q. Very well. Then we can move on.

10 You went to Zenica in September 1993 or,

11 rather, you left Skradno in a so-called private

12 exchange. That was an undercover exchange, as people

13 used to call it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So this was your personal decision and the

16 decision of your sons, who helped you in doing it?

17 A. No, it was allowed. An illegal exchange was

18 allowed. I think that that is what was said in

19 Blaskic.

20 Q. If it was allowed, why would it be called

21 illegal, then?

22 A. The municipality, the police, nobody opposed

23 the fighters of the HVO who were from the surroundings

24 of Zenica, Travnik, or I don't know from where, for

25 their families to be brought over and for us to leave.

Page 13163

1 Q. Very well. I understand. Those were private

2 arrangements?

3 A. Yes. Yes, one could call them private.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you.

5 A. Unofficial.

6 Q. While you were in Busovaca, before going to

7 Skradno, would you agree with me that there was a large

8 influx of refugees, of Croats coming to Busovaca?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And those refugees exerted a great deal of

11 pressure on the Muslims in particular but also on the

12 Croats?

13 A. I don't know. I know that the fighters, the

14 soldiers, were those who were exerting the pressure.

15 Q. Yes. Yes. But, as you come from those

16 parts, you know the locals. There were many soldiers

17 who were driven out, not just their families?

18 A. Look here. Let me tell you. The people who

19 put on a uniform, even the people I knew from a year

20 before in Busovaca, once they put on a uniform, it is

21 hard to -- we hardly knew each other.

22 Q. In view of the fact that you were exposed to

23 a certain amount of pressure in Busovaca, would you

24 agree with me that in Skradno you were relatively

25 better protected than in Busovaca?

Page 13164

1 A. No, it couldn't be put that way.

2 Q. But nevertheless, we must agree, you were not

3 exposed to so much pressure, not counting individual

4 misdeeds, but generally speaking?

5 A. I personally was not exposed to such

6 pressure.

7 Q. Tell me, please, when mention was made of

8 Skradno, you said that people were taken to dig

9 trenches?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you know, from what those people told

12 you, where they went and what they did?

13 A. Yes, because when a courier comes to pick

14 them up, he says where they were going: to Kula, Bare,

15 Strane.

16 Q. I just wanted to ask you one thing about it.

17 Those people who had this labour obligation, did they

18 tell you that there were Croats working with them, and

19 a few Serbs, those Croats who were unfit for military

20 service?

21 A. No, they didn't.

22 Q. Thank you. You repeated today, and I think

23 you confirmed, that you rarely watch television, that

24 you didn't have time for that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13165

1 Q. But nevertheless, you said that you

2 remembered a few things. So you remember, I assume --

3 maybe that's a better way to put it. You testified

4 about this in the Blaskic case, that is, about the

5 people you saw on television, and you recounted things

6 that you remembered from those programmes. Do you

7 remember that?

8 A. I don't remember very well; only the things I

9 know about the president of the municipality and about

10 Mr. Dario, the things I said before.

11 Q. Yes, but that's precisely where the

12 difference is. In the Blaskic trial you remembered

13 what Zoran Maric said, and what Anto Valenta said, on

14 one occasion.

15 A. Yes. I just remembered.

16 Q. But you didn't remember any other event?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Let us comment briefly on what you said you

19 heard Zoran Maric say on television. You said that

20 this was when the swearing in of the HVO was taking

21 place. Do you agree with me that that was in the

22 second half of August 1992; it was in the summer?

23 A. I don't remember exactly the months or the

24 date, but I know very well when packets of cigarettes

25 were being distributed to the soldiers.

Page 13166

1 Q. Mr. Maric held a lengthy speech on that

2 occasion. Do you remember that? It wasn't short.

3 A. Possibly, but I wasn't really interested. I

4 wouldn't go into the house, unless one of the members

5 of my household told me.

6 Q. So you didn't watch or listen to the whole

7 speech delivered by Zoran Maric?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. I have a few sentences from what he said.

10 Perhaps that will refresh your memory. Let me read it

11 out, briefly. Do you remember --

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Wait a minute. Wait for me to read it out

14 slowly, for the benefit of the interpreters. Do you

15 remember Mr. Maric saying the following, and I quote:

16 "We will fight for love, peace, and

17 equality. That is precisely why we say it today, that

18 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna is not a

19 community where other peoples will be second-rate

20 citizens, but a community of love and equality."

21 Do you remember these words?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Thank you. Let us move on. Today you spoke

24 about Mr. Dario Kordic, and you said that he was

25 promoted gradually and he reached the rank of colonel.

Page 13167

1 You don't know that from personal knowledge; you heard

2 about that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So it was something that was being talked

5 about in the village; you can't identify a specific

6 person?

7 A. Yes, because I didn't see his rank, but I

8 heard tell that among the people.

9 Q. If he moved up gradually to the rank of

10 colonel, did you hear what rank he had before?

11 A. No. I just heard that he went up in the

12 world.

13 Q. Would you agree with me, Mr. Nuhagic, that in

14 fact you don't know explicitly which positions

15 Mr. Kordic held from 1990 onwards?

16 A. In 1990 he became an employee in the

17 municipality. While he was in Vatrostalna, he was a

18 reporter. He joined the Communist Party. And then he

19 became an official in the municipality.

20 Q. And after he started working in the

21 municipality, you don't really know what positions he

22 held?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Very well, then. Then we won't go into that

25 any further.

Page 13168

1 As for Zoran Maric, we mentioned him a moment

2 ago. You know that he was formally president of the

3 municipality and the president of the HVO?

4 A. I know he was president of the municipality.

5 Q. Did you see on television, occasionally,

6 reports from press conferences?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So you don't know anything about these

9 conferences, who spoke, and when, and so on?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Today, you said that you do remember seeing

12 Mr. Kordic saying something about potatoes on

13 television?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where were you when you were watching this?

16 A. In Busovaca.

17 Q. What kind of a programme was that?

18 A. They had a meeting without TV cameras. When

19 they finished the meeting, then Miro Dzakula would go

20 to the municipality, and I remember this was stated

21 publicly.

22 Q. I'm sorry, who was Miro Dzakula?

23 A. He was some sort of a donator. He would

24 treat them, when they had meetings, with refreshments.

25 Q. What kind of meetings? At the municipality?

Page 13169

1 At what level?

2 A. In the municipality.

3 Q. And this feature that you watched, what was

4 it about, on television?

5 A. I'm afraid I couldn't tell you. I don't know

6 what the topic was.

7 Q. In view of the fact that Mr. Kordic

8 personally had nothing to do with humanitarian aid, I

9 have to tell you that Mr. Kordic never spoke about any

10 such things. So my question is: Are you quite sure

11 that he said that, rather than somebody else that you

12 saw on television?

13 A. And this was at the end of the meeting, when

14 he was interviewed by television.

15 Q. I beg your pardon. My question was a bit

16 different. Are you sure that it was Mr. Kordic who

17 spoke about humanitarian aid, and not someone else?

18 For instance, do you know who headed the Red Cross in

19 Busovaca?

20 A. I do not know, but I know that the potato

21 came through humanitarian aid.

22 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. There were two

23 questions there. One at a time, so the witness can

24 deal with them. It's now eleven. Have you got many

25 more questions for this witness, Mr. Naumovski?

Page 13170

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

2 I think in some 15 or 20 minutes I could finish, maybe

3 earlier.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now for

5 half an hour.

6 MR. NICE: Would Your Honour explain the

7 position to the witness about contact, because there is

8 no interpreter available for me to explain that to him,

9 and it -- and maybe he hasn't been told beforehand of

10 what the regime is.

11 JUDGE MAY: We don't usually mention it in

12 this adjournment.

13 MR. NICE: Very well.

14 --- Recess taken at 11 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.37 a.m.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

18 Your Honours.

19 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, may we resume? Let us just

20 round off the topic that we were talking about before.

21 While in Busovaca, did you know one Stipo

22 Santic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, as I have said, you did not answer the

25 question that I asked you before the break, so I have

Page 13171

1 to repeat it. So are you quite sure that it was not

2 somebody else who spoke on the subject of humanitarian

3 aid?

4 A. I don't really know why you are so interested

5 in those potatoes and humanitarian aid. Municipal

6 authorities know all that.

7 JUDGE MAY: We have the point. I think

8 you've dealt pretty thoroughly with that,

9 Mr. Naumovski.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Now, let us move on, since we've touched upon

12 Mr. Kordic.

13 Mr. Nuhagic, tell me, please, did you ever

14 meet and come to know Mr. Dario Kordic?

15 A. Yes, yes, when I was with Hasija Beslic, when

16 she was telling him about those documents that he was

17 issuing.

18 Q. Would you tell us, please, who is Hasija

19 Beslic?

20 A. Hasija Beslic? Well, she's just a woman who

21 used to work at the Vatrostalna in Busovaca with him.

22 Q. Where did she live; in the town?

23 A. In the town.

24 Q. Until when was she in Busovaca? Is she still

25 there?

Page 13172

1 A. No. She left in the month of September, as

2 everybody else.

3 Q. And where was it that you met Mr. Kordic?

4 A. Opposite the so-called hardware store or the

5 department store. There's a church there and just a

6 small square, a small triangle.

7 Q. And what were you doing in the town on that

8 occasion?

9 A. Well, I was walking with that Hasija, whom I

10 knew from before, because a neighbour from the village

11 that I knew was staying in the neighbouring house.

12 Q. And did you see the kind of permit or

13 certificate that she had and who signed it?

14 A. Sir, I had such a certificate, and all the

15 people of Muslim ethnicity. Let's not talk too much

16 about that certificate.

17 Q. No, no. I'm not saying you did not have a

18 certificate. I'm just saying the Court saw different

19 signatories on such certificates. Some were signed by

20 Mr. Maric, some by Dusko Grubesic. And my question was

21 what kind of a certificate this lady had and whose name

22 was signed there?

23 A. I don't know. She said the types of

24 certificates were issued so as not to be disturbed by

25 Croat troops, because they are worthless.

Page 13173

1 Q. But that conversation that you are talking

2 about, it involved Hasija Beslic, and you were only

3 present there; is that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. She complained that she was being harassed,

6 disturbed by troops, and you say that she said

7 Mr. Kordic said that it would not happen again?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And after that conversation, do you know what

10 happened then to Hasija Beslic?

11 A. Well, we parted our ways, because she went

12 home and I also went to the place where I was staying

13 in Busovaca on a different street.

14 Q. No. What I wanted to ask you was: Do you

15 know if soldiers came again to her place?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does that mean that you saw her on different

18 occasions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I mean, today you mentioned only one

21 conversation with her. That is why I'm asking you

22 that. When you were present at that conversation,

23 could you tell us, was there somebody else present?

24 Was Mr. Kordic alone?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13174

1 Q. Completely alone, all by himself?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. You don't know where he was

4 coming from, where he was headed; you don't know

5 anything about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And I agree with you. I believe I understood

8 you well. You did not mention your case, where you

9 lived, what you were, or anything like that?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. And you say that after that conversation,

12 soldiers came again to the place where you were and

13 said or, rather, showed that they did not like your

14 having a complaint to Kordic?

15 A. Yes, and Hasija did the same thing. I didn't

16 show the certificate, but she was safe.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Nuhagic, let us try to be quite

18 precise. Today, when asked by the Prosecution, you

19 answered that soldiers came to your house and said that

20 you complained to Kordic?

21 A. Yes, to my place, and Hasija's, and everybody

22 else. "You complained to Kordic about those

23 certificates that you have, but they are worth

24 nothing. He knows about all this, that you are being

25 disturbed, and about everything else."

Page 13175

1 Q. Yes, yes, I get your point. But will you try

2 to distinguish between when you talked with Hasija

3 later on and what you personally know? So will you

4 tell us, when the troops came to your house, what did

5 they exactly tell you, you personally?

6 A. Me, personally, and to one of my relatives, a

7 second, third relative of mine, when we would show the

8 documents, they say, "They are worthless. You went to

9 complain to Kordic, Hasija Beslic, and everybody else,

10 but whoever does that, we don't."

11 Q. I must ask you this once again. You said

12 explicitly today that those troops said to you that you

13 went to complain?

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That has been said several

15 times. Now, we've got the point.

16 A. I should like to ask to go back not to some

17 questions, because there are various paragraphs and

18 items here. Let us follow those.

19 JUDGE MAY: Let us decide how the questioning

20 is done here, but we'll make sure that you aren't

21 harassed by going back over old matter. Yes.

22 Have you got very much more, Mr. Naumovski?

23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Just one

24 question more.

25 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, will you agree with me on one

Page 13176

1 point: You gave two statements to the investigators of

2 The Hague Tribunal. Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes, there were.

4 Q. In 1995 and 1999?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you also gave a statement to the Zenica

7 police in 1994?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So it means three. And you also testified on

10 two occasions: in the Blaskic case and in the

11 Aleksovski case. Is that so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So it was five times that you gave the

14 statements?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So will you agree with me that on no one

17 occasion in any of those statements, or in your

18 testimony before the Court, did you mention the

19 conversation with Hasija Beslic and the humanitarian

20 aid?

21 A. Well, that was in '94, or '95, when I made

22 that statement. Perhaps it simply -- I simply didn't

23 remember that, because what I told you -- I mean, the

24 record would not show everything that one says, does

25 it?

Page 13177

1 Q. No. But, very briefly, can we agree that you

2 never mentioned that before, that this is the first

3 time that you mentioned it, in the year 2000?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. I have no

6 further questions.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Nuhagic.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. My name is Goran Mikulicic, and with my

11 learned friend, Mr. Kovacic, I represent the second

12 accused, Mario Cerkez.

13 Now, first I should like to express my

14 sincere sympathies, condolences to you, for all the

15 losses that you suffered during the events in

16 Busovaca.

17 Now, Mr. Nuhagic, let us go back to 1992 for

18 a while, when the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

19 attacked. At that time, sometime in mid-1992, Busovaca

20 was attacked too, wasn't it?

21 A. Excuse me, but with that Mario Cerkez, I

22 heard about him now here, at the hearing that he was

23 part. And as when I was preparing, I was told that,

24 but as I said, I had nothing to do with him, because he

25 did not come from my municipality, that Mario Cerkez.

Page 13178

1 Q. Yes, Mr. Nuhagic, we understand that, because

2 you are from the municipality of Busovaca, and all that

3 you said refers to that municipality, does it not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But I shall be very brief, so will you please

6 try to answer it.

7 Is it true that sometime in mid-1992,

8 Busovaca was shelled by the JNA?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And as a village inhabitant, like your

11 neighbours, did you think that you might be attacked by

12 the JNA?

13 A. Well, yes, it was shelled. Even Draga, which

14 was quite near me.

15 Q. And Mr. Nuhagic, did you undertake any

16 measures to protect yourselves in the village?

17 A. Only a shelter. When the alert would go on,

18 then we would go downstairs.

19 Q. But apart from that, did the villagers

20 organise themselves; that is, did you go on guard to

21 take -- to be on the alert, to see that the attack --

22 A. Not in 1992, when the shelling happened,

23 because there was no need for them.

24 Q. And later on, in 1993?

25 A. Oh, well, in '92, but it was very late in '92

Page 13179

1 we had some guards.

2 Q. So you had your village guards, which you

3 organised yourselves, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So, Mr. Nuhagic, and those village guards,

6 were they armed with anything?

7 A. Well, a hunting rifle, a carbine and

8 something -- something automatic, those drum rifles or

9 Kalasnikovs. I don't know what they are called, but

10 they came from the Territorial Defence.

11 Q. But could you remember, because it was a long

12 time ago, how many pieces of weapons did the village

13 guards in the village have?

14 A. Five pieces.

15 Q. And those village guards, Mr. Nuhagic, did

16 they receive orders from somebody?

17 A. Well, it was organised in the village, and

18 they -- there were neighbours, Croats, so we had

19 contact with them in '92, in late '92, and in the

20 beginning of 1993.

21 Q. But did those village guards have a

22 commander?

23 A. Well, no. Only we who were in that village.

24 I don't know about others.

25 Q. Very well. Were you also one of the village

Page 13180

1 guards, Mr. Nuhagic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Nuhagic, I have

4 no further questions.

5 Your Honours, I have no further questions for

6 the witness. Thank you.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

8 Q. Mr. Nuhagic, you've been asked about saying

9 in your -- one of your statements to the Tribunal

10 investigators that you read in a book about Grubesic,

11 Dusko, being the commander of the Busovaca HVO, and

12 ordering Ljubicic, Pasko, to attack the village.

13 You've also given us an account of how you learnt of

14 that from your brother. When, after the attack, did

15 you first meet your brother? How many hours or days

16 later was it that you met him?

17 A. Well, it was two or three later, that we were

18 in Busovaca, and he was there too, and that is when he

19 told us.

20 Q. Now, we've taken the awful experiences you

21 suffered very shortly, in the interest of saving time,

22 and partly in the interests of saving your feelings.

23 But you met your brother two or three hours or two or

24 three days later?

25 A. The next day.

Page 13181

1 Q. The next day. And he then told you what

2 you've told us today; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And is it right that before you made the

5 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

6 investigators, you had made a statement to the Bosnian

7 authorities?

8 A. I did give some statements, but that was a

9 long time ago, and I cannot really remember it all.

10 And besides, we were still afraid of the war and --

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I, rather than go

12 through the exercise of putting a document before the

13 witness, read to the Court, and my friends have got it

14 to follow, that in that statement he sets out --

15 JUDGE MAY: Can you identify the date,

16 please.

17 MR. NICE: Yes, of course. It's an official

18 record written on the 26th of March of 1994, according

19 to the record itself, based on an interview conducted

20 with this witness. And it's at the second page in the

21 English translation.

22 Q. And what the witness told the investigators

23 was that: "The Croat population from the area..." I'm

24 sorry, there is not a document before the interpreters,

25 so I'll read slowly:

Page 13182

1 "The Croat population from the area set out

2 towards Tisovac. On the way they were met about Dusko

3 Grubesic, commander of the Zrinjski brigade, who had

4 been told by Ivo Kristo that the grenades came from our

5 village, which was not true. Grubesic then ordered

6 Pasko Ljubicic to take his group and head towards our

7 village of Ocehnici."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was that what you told the investigators, and

10 was that what you had been told by your brother?

11 A. Yes, said to the investigators.

12 Q. Busovaca itself, the area to which the

13 villagers were fleeing, was that an area known to you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. We can see from the map, and having some

16 knowledge in this Court of the geography, we can see

17 that the areas are quite close together, but the map

18 doesn't show if they are connected by any road or

19 track, other than the main road going to Busovaca and

20 then coming out again. Was Ocehnici connected directly

21 to Tisovac, or would you have to go via Busovaca?

22 A. Via Busovaca, yes, through the village of

23 Ravna.

24 Q. And at the time that the villagers were

25 moving to Tisovac, was there anything located at

Page 13183

1 Tisovac of which you were then aware, any particular

2 building or any particular operation or base?

3 JUDGE MAY: I think this goes out of the

4 bounds of re-examination.

5 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases.


7 MR. NICE: That's all I ask.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nuhagic, that concludes your

9 evidence, and you are now released. But before you are

10 released, I wish to record the thanks of the

11 International Tribunal to you for coming here to give

12 your evidence.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE MAY: How long do you anticipate in

16 chief with this witness?

17 MR. NICE: Well --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

19 Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE: Within the next hour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. And that's the final

22 witness, of course.

23 MR. NICE: That is the final witness this

24 week, apart from the witness such as he, to the extent

25 that he is a witness, who will be able to help with the

Page 13184

1 video of the area. J.P. Capelle, who can be called

2 together.

3 JUDGE MAY: That's provided the Defence have

4 had the opportunity of seeing it, of course.

5 MR. NICE: Yes. We are making arrangements

6 to copy the tape now.

7 JUDGE MAY: And leaving time for the

8 argument.

9 MR. NICE: Yes. Well, there's the argument

10 this afternoon or tomorrow morning on three witnesses.

11 I don't necessarily think they'll be long, because

12 there have been very full skeletons served in respect

13 of one of them.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

15 if I may say something not related to the witness and

16 something related to the witness himself, I think it is

17 impossible for us to get through the plan that the

18 Prosecutor has in mind for tomorrow, because I don't

19 think we'll be able to organise, this evening, the

20 viewing of the tape in the detention centre with

21 Mr. Kordic. That's the first point.

22 My second point is that we should like to

23 allow the questions, except for paragraph 6, 7, 8, 9,

24 13 and 17, no leading in those paragraphs. Thank you.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 13185

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness is standing.

2 Let us deal with the formal matters. Let the witness

3 take the declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

6 and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Take a seat, please.

10 Mr. Kovacic wanted to raise something.

11 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I hate to disturb,

12 but on the earlier experience, it will be technically,

13 if not impossible, but very difficult, to have this

14 videotape this evening in the detention unit. So I

15 would suggest we, of course, by mutual effort, can try

16 to succeed, but as a contingency plan, perhaps tomorrow

17 we can have a short break after we see the tape. Then

18 we can discuss it with the client.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll discuss it at

20 the end of the day, when we know how much progress

21 we've made.

22 MR. KOVACIC: Exactly. I just mention it as

23 a contingency.

24 And if I may, I would kindly ask Prosecutor

25 Nice not to ask a leading question on 17, paragraph

Page 13186

1 17. I think that was mentioned by Mr. Naumovski.

2 Thank you.

3 Examined by Mr. Nice:

4 Q. Your full name, please.

5 A. Salih Hamzic.

6 Q. Mr. Hamzic, did you work for Radio Zenica in

7 1992?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. In April of 1992, did the Radio Zenica

10 personnel hold a meeting to plan a strategy for the

11 radio station, and if so, can you just tell us, in a

12 sentence or so, what that strategy was?

13 A. Yes. At the beginning of the aggression on

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the beginning of April 1992, we

15 had a meeting, and at that meeting we decided, because

16 we had seen that there was an aggression being launched

17 on Bosnia-Herzegovina, that we should protect Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina, defend it. And bearing in mind our

19 contacts with Radio Sarajevo, we also decided to follow

20 suit and work in that manner.

21 Q. In May or June, were there television

22 programmes which included participation of Dario

23 Kordic, Blaskic, Praljak, and other officials from the

24 Territorial Defence, each of those people giving their

25 explanations and comments on the war?

Page 13187

1 A. You said "television programme." There were

2 only press conferences.

3 Q. Yes, thank you.

4 A. The television programme, there was a local

5 station, Zeta, and it broadcast reports from Busovaca

6 and, of course, from Zenica. That was the television

7 programme, as far as I know.

8 Q. My mistake. I apologise.

9 Who led the programmes that involved, amongst

10 others, Dario Kordic? Who was in charge of them?

11 A. At that time, all the journalists led certain

12 programmes, depending on their shifts. However, most

13 of the programmes were led by Ivica Tomic and Anton

14 Mrkonjic.

15 Q. Were they, each of them, members of the HVO?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I think you knew Kordic from before the war,

18 he then being a journalist for the Busovaca branch of

19 the Vatrostalna company in Zenica.

20 A. Yes. At the end of -- that is to say, at the

21 beginning of the 1970s, Mr. Kordic was in charge of a

22 particular programme. I think it was a 20-minute

23 programme from the Vatrostalna company and the branch

24 in Busovaca. So I know him from that time.

25 Q. It's come up on the translation as "the

Page 13188

1 1970s". What period are you actually referring to?

2 A. I apologise. I didn't mean "the '70s." At

3 the end of '70.

4 Q. At the time that you knew him in this

5 capacity, was he, in your judgement, a silent and a

6 serious person and, indeed, a polite one?

7 A. At the time when I co-operated with Kordic, he

8 was quite a normal person, a very natural one, and a

9 calm person.

10 Q. By the time of the television programmes in

11 May or June of 1992, what, if anything, did you notice

12 about his appearance and demeanour?

13 A. You once again mentioned "television

14 programmes." It was a radio programme, radio

15 broadcast.

16 Q. Sorry. The same question, though.

17 A. In May and in June 1992, Kordic, on several

18 occasions, would come for a guest appearance and take

19 part in an open type of programme which was broadcast

20 at the time by Radio Zenica. I saw him on several

21 occasions wearing a camouflage uniform. I think he had

22 a cap on his head. And he had bodyguards who were

23 wearing black uniforms.

24 Q. What about his demeanour and what about the

25 security that surrounded him even farther afield than

Page 13189

1 the four bodyguards?

2 A. At one of those guest appearances on the

3 programme, I remember that the street in which the

4 Radio Zenica building is situated was blocked. At that

5 time already, we were not able to contact Mr. Kordic in

6 the normal way. That is to say, he was a little

7 superior in his demeanour.

8 Q. Did you notice anything, in the course of

9 these broadcasts, about the language that he used or

10 the terms that he used?

11 A. Yes, I did. At the time, terms were

12 beginning to be used such as "Chetniks," "Ustashas,"

13 and in Mr. Kordic's conduct, and felt a sort of

14 superiority in respect to the TO, for example, at the

15 time. There was this sort of distance set.

16 Q. When you say that certain terms were used,

17 are you saying they were used by Kordic or not?

18 A. I think he used them, yes.

19 JUDGE MAY: Just going back to the street

20 being closed, I take it that was in Zenica, was it?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I was talking about Zenica.

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. In the course of the broadcasts, did you

24 notice the way he spoke, the way he dealt with the

25 current issues, and the way he dealt with the

Page 13190

1 contribution, good and bad, of the different parties?

2 A. At the beginning, that is to say, at the

3 beginning of May, everything was quite normal. He

4 would speak about communality between the HVO or TO.

5 Later on, when he would come for a second or

6 third time, these relationships began to cool, and I

7 gained the impression that what prevailed was a certain

8 feeling of raising the HVO, glorifying it.

9 Q. Did you on one occasion speak to Kordic about

10 one of the broadcasts?

11 A. Yes. I think that, as far as I am able to

12 recall, it was the last time that I, in fact, had

13 contacts with Mr. Kordic. Before the programme went on

14 the air, we got cigarettes as presents, and some wine

15 or some alcoholic beverage, and after the programme

16 itself, when Kordic was leaving the studio, I told him

17 words to this effect: "This isn't leading anywhere.

18 That is not the way things should be done."

19 Q. What was it about the event that had led you

20 to say that?

21 A. I was irritated by his very appearance and

22 conduct, and the speech he made, and his participation,

23 in fact, in the programme. And that was my normal

24 reaction to what I had heard. And as I knew Kordic, I

25 decided to react. And it was well intentioned, might I

Page 13191

1 say.

2 Q. Can you help us at all with the detail of

3 either his appearance and conduct, or the detail of the

4 speech that night, that led to your taking this

5 initiative?

6 A. I said a moment ago that in this entire

7 conversation, one side would always -- the scales would

8 be tipped, so that one side would always be above the

9 other. And you could always feel this heightened

10 superiority on the part of one side. And in that

11 sense, that is the sense that I took him to mean, and

12 that I reacted to and said what I said to him.

13 When I told him that, Kordic didn't answer.

14 He just passed by me.

15 Q. From all that you saw of him, and all that

16 you knew of him, what was his role, as revealed on

17 these broadcasts in Central Bosnia?

18 A. Let me say once again the following: As far

19 as I know, and in my opinion, he was the chief, the

20 boss, so to speak, the number-one man.

21 Q. Turning now to the station again. Was there

22 a suggestion made at some stage that the station might

23 need extra protection?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who made the suggestion, and what was the

Page 13192

1 nature of the suggestion?

2 A. The suggestion came from Mr. Tomic and

3 Mr. Mrkonjic, that is to say, the head of the HDZ in

4 Zenica. And at the time, I think that it was

5 Mr. Sakic, Dominik Sakic, I think was the man. And the

6 purpose of the proposal was to secure the building,

7 provide security for the building, and to position

8 members of the HVO to do this.

9 Q. In fact, did the radio station have its own

10 security service on site?

11 A. Yes, it did. And it is common knowledge that

12 every radio station must have its own security.

13 Q. What was the response of the radio station to

14 Tomic's offer?

15 A. I can only give you my own response, which

16 was in the talks with Mr. Tomic and Mrkonjic. That is

17 to say, I quite simply answered their question by

18 putting a question of my own. And I asked him, "Who do

19 you want us to protect the station from?"

20 Q. What sort of answer did you get?

21 A. Well, of course, I didn't get an answer.

22 Q. Were you concerned at that stage to maintain

23 the independence of the radio station?

24 A. I don't know in what sense you mean,

25 "independence."

Page 13193

1 Q. At the time we are talking about, was the

2 radio station controlled by any political faction, or

3 was it free to broadcast generally, in accordance with

4 its own policy?

5 A. Radio Zenica, at the time and today, is quite

6 open. And at the time, as we are talking about that

7 period, it was quite an open, a very open radio

8 station, open to everyone. And the radio station was

9 never influenced, under the influence of any military

10 formation or political party.

11 Q. In the event, did you allow the HVO to guard

12 the radio station?

13 A. Of course not.

14 Q. Did you notice that attendance at the radio

15 station of local HDZ and HVO members declined towards

16 the end of 1992, and that they started sending their

17 information reports for broadcast by fax?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you ever able to work out a reason for

20 this change of behaviour?

21 A. I didn't, but I can -- I have my assumptions.

22 Q. We may not want them. On what are they

23 based?

24 A. Well, my assumptions are based on this --

25 purely on this cooling of relations between, let me

Page 13194

1 say, the HDZ, HVO, and the TO, and their visions of

2 defence against the aggression, and so on.

3 Q. Did the radio station, from time to time,

4 receive threats?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. Initially, did you treat them fairly

7 lightly? You didn't take them too seriously?

8 A. That's right, because our radio programmes

9 were open, of an open type, with call-ins. These

10 threats did exist, but I didn't take them seriously,

11 personally.

12 Q. Did they get worse, the telephone threats,

13 towards the end of 1992, become more violent in their

14 nature?

15 A. I really couldn't say, but I can say -- what

16 I can tell you is that in the autumn of 1992, something

17 happened -- some strange things happened, whether due

18 to circumstances or not, I don't know, but --

19 Q. Tell us about those things.

20 A. One of my colleagues at work -- Bogoljub Ilic

21 was his name -- at the time, in the evening, was

22 captured and his head was shaved. And we didn't know

23 by whom. At the time, the director, a woman -- she was

24 a woman director of Radio Zenica, her name was Medina

25 Delibasic, and her flat was broken into and looted.

Page 13195

1 Her property was taken away.

2 At the same time, my flat was broken into as

3 well, but, luckily, nothing was taken, because they

4 were prevented in doing so.

5 Q. Was there some digging of trenches in the

6 area of the radio station in the autumn of 1992? If

7 so, by whom?

8 A. Yes, there was. In the autumn of 1992, this

9 began, as far as I know -- that is to say, there was a

10 military demonstration by the HVO. We asked for

11 protection, and then the members of the TO of the day

12 dug several trenches as fortification for the

13 television building.

14 Q. That level of protection, did it involve the

15 stationing of soldiers in the radio station itself,

16 ever?

17 A. Of course not.

18 Q. How near to or far from the radio station

19 were these protective trenches dug?

20 A. Well, I can just give you an approximation.

21 One of them was some 15 to 20 metres away, on the

22 right-hand side. On the left-hand side there was

23 another one, some 20 metres off, and one was across the

24 Bosna River, as far as I recall.

25 Q. In December, 1992, was there a bomb that went

Page 13196

1 off close to the radio station?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us a bit more about where it

4 went off, and what its effect was?

5 A. What happened was that towards the end of

6 1992, after we had had a New Year's celebration, across

7 from the entrance to the Radio Zenica building,

8 opposite the entrance, at a window of a cafe, a bomb

9 was placed. The bomb exploded precisely in the

10 evening, sometime after 10 p.m., when we were going

11 home. Luckily, nobody was injured, because we left the

12 building in groups, three to four people to a group.

13 But the windows and doors of the building were

14 destroyed.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, are you moving on to

16 April '93?

17 MR. NICE: Yes.

18 JUDGE MAY: Before you do that, there is

19 something I want to ask the witness about.

20 Mr. Hamzic, first of all, what was your job

21 at the radio station? What did you do there?

22 A. At the time, I was the main technician,

23 working on the production of programmes.

24 JUDGE MAY: And are you still employed there

25 or are you working elsewhere?

Page 13197

1 A. Yes, I am still employed.

2 JUDGE MAY: I want to go back to May and June

3 '92. This was the period in which Mr. Kordic was

4 coming to make broadcasts; is that right?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 JUDGE MAY: And can you give us any idea of

7 how many he might have made, or how often he came,

8 whichever is the easier way of looking at it?

9 A. As far as I can remember, two or three

10 times. Let's say three times, as far as I can

11 recollect. Because I wasn't always on duty at the time

12 that he appeared.

13 JUDGE MAY: And after that, he made no

14 further broadcasts; is that right?

15 A. I think that at the beginning of June, again

16 as far as I can remember, that was the last time.

17 Whether it was the end of May or the end of June, but

18 not after that.

19 Of course, later on those press conferences

20 or some sort of reports were broadcast from Busovaca.

21 I think that this was at the Tisa Motel. Of course,

22 our reporters covered those events, and we had those

23 reports.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

25 MR. NICE: May the witness see --

Page 13198

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. NICE: May the witness see an exhibit.

3 It's a plan, and it's 2282,4. It has one marking on

4 it, but I hope that that won't inconvenience the

5 witness or lead to any objection.

6 Q. I'm sorry for not having given you the

7 opportunity of looking at this map before. Disregard

8 the single marking on it, and if you're able to, if

9 this map helps you at all, point out where the radio

10 station was first.

11 A. I can't see it very clearly.

12 Q. The general area will do for these purposes.

13 It may not show it in detail, and if it becomes

14 necessary, we can always get a more detailed map. And

15 if the map is inappropriate or doesn't cover the area,

16 you must say so. But taking your time to familiarise

17 yourself with the map, see if you can help us with

18 where the radio station was. You can see the bend in

19 the Bosna River. We can see the bridges named, so that

20 should give you points of reference.

21 Now, if the usher will give you a pointer,

22 and if you would be good enough to point on the

23 overhead projector, which is on your right-hand side.

24 If you could point it out on the map or tell us.

25 A. I'm not sure. I can't see things properly.

Page 13199

1 I'm afraid I can't find my way on this map. I just

2 can't see.

3 Q. Can you -- we'll come back to that in a

4 minute. Can you tell us what road or street the radio

5 station is in?

6 A. I'll tell you the address of the radio

7 station. It's along the bank of the Bosna River. The

8 road along the bank itself, the embankment itself, is

9 called the boulevard, and then just behind that road is

10 the road called Fadil Spanac, as it was called, and now

11 it is Seid Serdarevic [phoen] Street.

12 Q. And to which bridge is the radio station

13 nearest, if you know the names of the bridges?

14 A. The closest bridge is the bridge across the

15 road from the central mosque. It is a pedestrian, a

16 hanging bridge. And then the next bridge is next to

17 the Hotel Metalurg.

18 MR. NICE: Yes, very well. Your Honours,

19 just give me one minute.

20 Q. Although the map doesn't show it, is the

21 station within the bend in the river or is it on one of

22 the bits of the river on either side of that bend?

23 A. I think it is here, where the circle is

24 [indicates]. I think it is roughly there, roughly.

25 Q. Now, you spoke of the trenches being dug to

Page 13200

1 one side and the other and then on the other side of

2 the river, and that stimulated me to ask you to look at

3 the map. At the point where the radio station lies, is

4 there anything, apart from the boulevard, between it

5 and the river? Can you see the river from the radio

6 station?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then the trenches were how far the other

9 side of the river, immediately the other side or some

10 distance away?

11 A. Some distance away, some 20 metres away from

12 the river, 15 or 20 metres away from the river. I

13 don't know exactly.

14 Q. Let's move now to the 19th of April. Were

15 you on duty at the radio station on that day when you

16 received a phone call?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The person who spoke, was it a man or a

19 woman?

20 A. What do you mean, "on the phone"? I don't

21 understand.

22 Q. Was it a man speaking to you on the phone?

23 A. A man was speaking to me on the phone.

24 Q. What did you notice about his voice or

25 accent?

Page 13201

1 A. In my judgement, I think he faked his speech

2 or accent. It wasn't authentic Croatian but a faked

3 accent, in my opinion, and I think that the line

4 itself, or the call, again in my judgement, I think was

5 not made from Zenica.

6 Q. What did the man say?

7 A. When he called, of course, he didn't

8 introduce himself. He asked for information regarding

9 the position of the Radio Zenica building. I asked him

10 why. He again asked and insisted on his question,

11 "Please tell me, where is the Radio Zenica building

12 situated?" After he repeated this request two or three

13 times, I asked him, "But, sir, why do you need the

14 building of Radio Zenica? What for?" He insisted

15 again that I tell him where it was. And then I

16 answered, "Sir, when you get to Zenica, ask anyone in

17 the street. Everyone will tell you where the building

18 of Radio Zenica is." That was my answer.

19 Q. How did the conversation develop?

20 A. After insisting once or twice -- I can't

21 remember exactly -- I asked him once again, "Why do you

22 need the building of Radio Zenica? What for?" He then

23 quietly told me, without any insults or any offensive

24 words, he said, "Sir, we are going to shell you in ten

25 minutes." That's what he said to me. My answer was --

Page 13202

1 of course, I laughed, and I answered, "Are you

2 serious," because I was laughing. I just couldn't

3 understand what it was all about. He repeated the same

4 statement, "Sir, we are going to shell you in ten

5 minutes' time. Look for shelter. You're a good man.

6 Take shelter." That's what he said to me.

7 Q. Did you say anything else?

8 A. When he said this, I laughed again. I didn't

9 take it all seriously, I thought it was quite

10 impossible, and I said to him, in dialect, "If you want

11 to fight, come, and we'll shoot at each other, we'll

12 have a shoot-out," that's what I said, "rather than

13 this," and then the line was disconnected.

14 Q. Did you take this threat seriously initially?

15 A. Of course not, because there were threats

16 before, and if one had taken each threat seriously,

17 where would we be?

18 Q. Sometime later, however, did you notice

19 something?

20 A. After that conversation, there was an

21 intermission on the programme, if I can call it that,

22 because at 12 we would transmit the radio programme

23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in the break before linking

24 up, I went out to a small corridor just in front of the

25 studio to have a cup of coffee and a smoke, and I

Page 13203

1 noticed -- some 15 or 20 metres away from me, I saw

2 smoke. This could have been in front of the department

3 store called Bosanka today. In those days, it was the

4 Belgrade Department Store.

5 Q. What did you see? People injured, and so on?

6 A. From the window, where I was in the corridor,

7 I can see the street in which the radio station is

8 located, and there is a passage leading from the spot

9 where I saw the smoke. I also noticed then that a

10 group of people were on a stampede, if I can put it

11 that way. And they were dragging the wounded. I saw

12 the wounded. They were in a panic, and they were

13 fleeing without any -- knowing where they were going,

14 in panic. I still didn't realise what was going on.

15 And then I leaned over the window and asked, "What's

16 happening?" And somebody answered from down below,

17 "People are getting killed up there."

18 Q. Sometime after that, did you hear something

19 else in the area of the station?

20 A. You see, the first shell I didn't hear, and

21 when the people were running away, then I heard another

22 three or four shells, one after the other, at a very

23 short distance away; I really don't know how far away,

24 but it was very close by. From one of the explosions

25 of these shells, the whole building seemed to be

Page 13204

1 moving. It was in the daytime. It was sunny. There

2 was -- the light was on in the studio, and suddenly the

3 light went off. Everything turned dark, probably from

4 the dust.

5 Q. You heard these shells. From where you were,

6 you had no opportunity to see any of them landing?

7 A. No, I couldn't see where they landed, but I

8 heard them very well. Extremely well.

9 Q. Did you see any shell craters or such like

10 afterwards, and see how close to or far from the radio

11 station they were?

12 A. Of course not at that very moment, but later

13 on, a day or two later, I went to see where they had

14 landed.

15 Q. And how near or far from the radio station

16 were they?

17 A. I think that the farthest one was maybe 30 to

18 50 metres away, and the others were all within a radius

19 of some 15 metres. One of them, the one but last of

20 the last one, went right at the building, but since

21 there was a large tree in the street in front of the

22 building, this shell scathed the tree and hit the

23 corner of the building and landed in front of the

24 building on the lower side, towards the River Bosna.

25 It destroyed the bus stop there, and I think a car.

Page 13205

1 Q. Does the building still exist, the building

2 in which you were working at the time?

3 A. Yes, it does.

4 Q. We don't have a photograph of the building at

5 the moment. We'll have one taken, to assist the Court

6 in due course, and it may come in through another

7 witness.

8 Would you recognise the bus stop that you are

9 speaking of, in case that we can locate the building

10 rather more easily at the moment?

11 A. Would you recognise the bus stop?

12 Q. Can he look at 2281, please.

13 A. Yes, I could. Yes, that's it. It is still

14 there, only it's been rebuilt. That is it. And there

15 is the hanging bridge right next to it.

16 Q. Just look at --

17 A. And the building is roughly across the

18 street. This is the River Bosna, and the building is

19 across the street. That's it.

20 Q. If you would like to look at this one,

21 2282.1, please. It may help you as well. Does this

22 help us all in relation to where the radio station was

23 or not?

24 A. I didn't quite understand your question. Can

25 you repeat it, please?

Page 13206

1 Q. Does this photograph help us to identify

2 where the radio station was? Is it shown in this

3 picture? Is it somewhere near to what is shown in this

4 picture?

5 A. This photograph shows the cinema building,

6 which is over there, and this is where the shell fell,

7 I think, and this is the department store. And from

8 this point, the radio is maybe 30 and a couple of

9 metres away or, rather, between 30 and 50 metres away,

10 from this part.

11 Q. Well, we'll rely on the other photograph and

12 get better photographs to help the Chamber later.

13 Were workers evacuated from the building to a

14 nearby shelter, and did you then go back to the radio

15 station with another colleague?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was the radio station no longer working

18 because the power was off?

19 A. Yes. When the shelling took place, then I

20 suggested that we go three by three at a time, because

21 we were on the ground floor, and the walls of the

22 building were thick, that we go to the nuclear shelter.

23 Q. Yes. I don't think we need go into this in

24 any more detail, because you, having gone back and

25 found the power off, did you then succeed in fixing the

Page 13207

1 radio station so that it could play a tape of music?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did the telephone start to ring?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was one of those callers a man whose voice

6 was similar to the voice you'd heard earlier?

7 A. Let me see. I was in a state of shock. A

8 male voice called up again and said, "Balija, you

9 haven't been hit yet. We are going to shell you

10 again." Whether it was the same voice as the first

11 time, I really couldn't say, because I was in shock and

12 I couldn't register such things.

13 Q. Did the shelling continue that same afternoon

14 or not?

15 A. As far as I can remember, it did not.

16 Q. Did the ABiH come and order the station to

17 move, a couple of hours later?

18 A. Yes, that same afternoon.

19 Q. Was there shelling of Zenica city centre

20 intermittently from then on and until February 1994?

21 A. As far as I know, yes.

22 Q. Just to deal with this: You have -- don't

23 tell us what your view is, but you have a view on where

24 the shells came from; is that correct? Just "yes" or

25 "no" is all I want.

Page 13208

1 A. I assume I do.

2 Q. And did that come from what other people had

3 told you, or from anything that you saw yourself? Just

4 tell us that. Don't tell us your conclusion.

5 A. It was based on what I saw.

6 Q. What was it that you saw that enabled you to

7 draw the conclusion?

8 A. At the time, the shelling was always coming

9 from one and the same side, so we knew where to seek

10 shelter; not the first one when it landed, but from

11 then on we knew where we should seek shelter.

12 Q. And from what side of Zenica was it coming?

13 A. It was coming from the direction of Vitez and

14 Busovaca. In those days I think it was more from

15 Vitez.

16 MR. NICE: Those are all the questions I need

17 to ask of this witness, subject to correcting it from

18 material, if I am able to, the unsatisfactory position

19 about the photographs, which isn't the witness's doing

20 at all, I should say. It should have been sorted out

21 by me earlier.

22 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now until half past

23 two.

24 Mr. Hamzic, will you be back, please, at half

25 past two to continue your evidence, and we'll finish

Page 13209

1 it this afternoon. Could you please remember, during

2 this adjournment, and any others there may be during

3 this case, not to talk to anybody about your evidence

4 until it's over, and that does include the members of

5 the Prosecution. Would you be back, please, at half

6 past two.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1 p.m.



















Page 13210

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice.

3 MR. NICE: We don't have another photograph,

4 I think, that shows the radio station itself. I think

5 its position is probably not a matter of contention,

6 and if necessary, we can produce a photograph in due

7 course. It lies, I think, between the boulevard and

8 the next road in, pretty well in the area where the "M"

9 is marked. If there's any dispute about it, we can

10 always agree amongst ourselves.

11 That concludes what I want to ask the

12 witness.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

15 Your Honours.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

17 Q. Mr. Hamzic, let me introduce myself. I'm

18 Mitko Naumovski, I'm from Zagreb, and I'm the counsel

19 of Mr. Dario Kordic.

20 I usually begin by saying to the witnesses

21 that we understand one another as soon as we utter our

22 thoughts, so would you please pause before answering my

23 questions.

24 Mr. Hamzic, if I understood you well, you

25 spent years working as a sound engineer for Radio

Page 13211

1 Zenica, didn't you?

2 A. [No audible response]

3 Q. Did you hold the same job in '92, '93?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You merely nodded in answer to my first

6 question. I'm afraid you have to give your answer.

7 Did you serve in the army? Did you serve

8 with the former state's army?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you perform any military duties during

11 the war, were you mobilised, were you under labour

12 obligation, or anything like that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you were mobilised, and your obligation

15 was to work at the radio station, was it?

16 A. That was my labour obligation.

17 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, throughout 1992,

18 you say you -- you told us which particular programme

19 you produced, and you said it was based on the strategy

20 of the Bosnian Radio or, rather, the strategy of Radio

21 Sarajevo; that was the one that was implemented there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Very well. Will you agree with me that that

24 decision was not taken unanimously at the radio

25 station, that some people did not agree with that?

Page 13212

1 A. At that meeting, as I already said, there

2 were no different views, as far as I know.

3 Q. Let me then phrase it this way: Ivica Tomic

4 and Anton Mrkonjic, they were journalists at the Radio

5 Zenica, too, weren't they?

6 A. Yes, except that Mr. Tomic at that time was

7 the editor in chief.

8 Q. And when did they stop or, rather, when were

9 they prevented, barred, from continuing their work

10 because they were members of the HVO, as you said?

11 A. They were not barred from continuing in their

12 jobs. They stopped working themselves, as far as I

13 know.

14 Q. But will you tell us when?

15 A. I think it was August, sometime in August,

16 '92, when Mrkonjic joined a military formation, and

17 Tomic perhaps followed suit a month or a month and a

18 half later, or perhaps a little later than that.

19 Q. Right. So if I understand you well, we can

20 agree that in the latter half of 1992, people who

21 worked at Radio Zenica and were members of the HVO

22 stopped coming to work, generally speaking?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So some people continued to come to work; is

25 that what you are trying to say?

Page 13213

1 A. Specifically, Tomic continued to come --

2 Q. No, no, no. I said "generally." After

3 Mrkonjic left, shall we say, late 1992.

4 A. I am referring to the two of them. That is

5 quite correct. After that, they did not come again.

6 Q. But tell us, Radio Zenica was a civilian

7 institution, wasn't it; it wasn't a party station?

8 A. I already explained it once. Quite true, it

9 was not a party radio station. Of course, it was a

10 civilian station, yes, naturally.

11 Q. I'm asking you that because you said that you

12 had accepted the assistance of the TO at some point,

13 and then the TO dug some trenches, as you told us,

14 around the building of the radio station?

15 A. Yes, but we did not accept the assistance.

16 Q. But at that time, in the town of Zenica, we

17 had the HVO and TO both active in the town. How is it

18 that you were not helped by both sides and that you did

19 not ask both sides for help?

20 A. I have just explained it to you. The HVO, in

21 the autumn of 1992, the HVO has already begun to

22 demonstrate -- to give demonstrations of their military

23 power.

24 Q. You mean in the town?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13214

1 Q. Yes, right. But before that, and you don't

2 have to be very accurate and I know it is difficult,

3 but just to give the Court an idea about the town of

4 Zenica, how many Croats were there, how many Serbs, how

5 many Muslims were there, roughly, just approximately,

6 just to give some idea?

7 A. Well, approximately, say, of about 30

8 employed -- and I'm not giving exact figures; we're

9 agreed on that -- so some 10 or perhaps 12 were

10 Muslims, as many Serbs, perhaps, and the rest were

11 Catholics.

12 Q. You say "Catholics"; you mean Croats?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. But I am referring to the town. What was the

15 town population and what was the composition in the

16 town, just to give an idea to the Court?

17 A. I think that the ratio was roughly -- well,

18 say, 50 percent Muslims, 24, 25 percent were Serbs,

19 and then 23 or 24 were Croats. That would be roughly

20 -- or Catholics, if you like, or Croats.

21 Q. My colleague Mr. Mikulicic gives me this

22 census, and we think that there was about the same

23 share of Croats and Serbs, about 50 percent each; that

24 is the census of '91, and the Muslims were counted for

25 50 percent?

Page 13215

1 A. I just told you that I do not really have any

2 accurate data.

3 Q. All right. All right. So tell me, please,

4 when these two Croat journalists left Radio Zenica,

5 Radio Zenica went on with its programme policy

6 throughout '93, and I guess '94 as well?

7 A. Yes. The programme was based by the

8 programme concept of the Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. I see. And you covered the events that

10 happened in '92, especially as of April onward, when

11 the war broke out, when the aggression took place, so

12 my question is within this context. Did you have a

13 programme about when the Territorial Defence -- rather,

14 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina took over the big JNA

15 barracks in Zenica, where they found tanks and guns and

16 other weaponry like that? Do you remember that?

17 A. Of course I do.

18 Q. Was it covered in your programme --

19 JUDGE MAY: How does this arise from the

20 evidence in chief?

21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, I think

22 it has to do with the programme orientation, with the

23 policy of Radio Zenica.

24 JUDGE MAY: The witness merely gave evidence

25 that there was a press conference, press conferences in

Page 13216

1 May and June, 1992, to which, as I understood it, both

2 sides were invited. You can ask about them, but as for

3 the rest of the orientation, it doesn't appear to me to

4 be relevant.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

6 Your Honours. Of course I will ask that too.

7 Q. So just a few more questions on the same

8 topic, and then we shall move on to other matters, and

9 then a couple of questions about Mr. Kordic.

10 Just very quickly, you mentioned an explosion

11 in late December '92, in a cafe which is somewhere near

12 Radio Zenica -- rather, near the building in which the

13 Radio Zenica had its premises?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was the perpetrator established? Was the

16 perpetrator, the one who planted the bomb, was he

17 identified?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you have any idea about the results of the

20 investigation, who the bomb was intended for, and

21 things like that?

22 A. I do not know what were the results of the

23 investigation, but the fact is that a bomb was planted

24 in the evening when the cafe was closed. And the door

25 into the building is right across the street from the

Page 13217

1 cafe or, rather, right across the window of the cafe.

2 Now, who it was intended for, you can draw your own

3 conclusions.

4 Q. Right. But you do not know details, do you?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. You also mentioned some strange

7 circumstances, as you put it, in the autumn of '92, and

8 you mentioned some trouble that some of the people from

9 the radio desk faced. That is something that you

10 said. But did you find out -- was it established who

11 committed all these offences?

12 A. No.

13 Q. A little while ago we spoke about the help

14 or, rather, that the Territorial Defence took it upon

15 itself to protect your building and dug trenches

16 around. And I forgot to ask you the following

17 question: Why didn't you ask the civilian police for

18 help? Because, after all, it was the police which was

19 responsible for the protection of law and order and

20 things like that.

21 A. I guess -- excuse me. I guess that the

22 police, the civilian police at the time was responsible

23 for public law and order, and we felt that something

24 was about to happen, or that something was happening.

25 We asked the TO to help us, which was only logical.

Page 13218

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us move on to

2 another topic. You said that you received threats at

3 specific intervals in the autumn of '92. Was it

4 anything personal, or did it have to do with your work

5 at the radio station?

6 A. It had to do with my work at the radio

7 station, because they knew when I was on duty, when I

8 had my shift. Everybody knew when sound engineers took

9 their shifts, and that is when the calls came.

10 Q. But we shall agree that you do not know who

11 made the call, where he made the call from, or anything

12 about that?

13 A. I do not know who made those calls.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, a few questions concerning

15 Mr. Kordic. We agree that you knew Mr. Kordic at a

16 time when he worked as a General [as interpreted] for

17 Vatrostalna in Busovaca. And he would come to the

18 radio station, and you were asked by the President of

19 this Court, and you said that he came two or three

20 times. I'm sorry, I see that it says "general." That

21 is a mistake. Of course that is a misprint. He was a

22 journalist at the Vatrostalna. Mr. Kordic was a

23 journalist at the Vatrostalna.

24 So you said that Mr. Kordic came on three

25 occasions, when you were asked by His Honour about

Page 13219

1 that.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but that related to May and

3 June, 1992. Now, you apparently are asking about the

4 earlier period, when he came as a journalist to the

5 station.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] My fault

7 entirely, Your Honour. I meant '92. I had only one

8 question related to Vatrostalna.

9 Q. So in May and June of '92, you say Mr. Kordic

10 came to Radio Zenica on three occasions; is that so?

11 A. I said about three times. I am not sure I

12 know how many times. I was on duty then. If other

13 colleagues were working in the shift, then I don't

14 know. But I think that he was there on two or three

15 occasions.

16 Q. Perhaps I will jog your memory if I tell you

17 that he came to Radio Zenica twice: in March '92, at

18 the time of General Kukanjac, from the JNA; that was

19 before the war broke out. And the second time, perhaps

20 it was late May or early June, as you said. So it

21 would be two times. Can we agree on that?

22 A. Possibly, except when I worked; I know this.

23 You know, if another colleague was on duty, then --

24 Q. Right. Right. During your

25 examination-in-chief, you said that programmes with

Page 13220

1 Mr. Kordic were mostly done by those two journalists,

2 Tomic and Mrkonjic?

3 A. I said mostly, by and large.

4 Q. Perhaps this will jog your memory. Both

5 programmes, as far as we remember, or as far as we

6 know, with Mr. Kordic, who was a guest on those

7 programmes, were hosted by a lady colleague of yours, a

8 Muslim, who was a friend of one Filip. So you must

9 know her as your journalist at that period of time.

10 A. That colleague's name was Aida Hadzimeljic at

11 that time. I do remember what you said about Kukanjac,

12 and I think that indeed it was she. But the rest of

13 it, I stick to what I said before.

14 Q. Very well. Radio Zenica records its

15 programmes like any other radio station, so I suppose

16 you did the same thing; you recorded them on tape,

17 didn't you?

18 A. Yes, of course. But in '93, as there was a

19 shortage of tapes, or any kind of recording material,

20 the tapes that we had used before to record various

21 programmes on them, we began to reuse them.

22 Q. Let me then ask you specifically. The tapes

23 of those two programmes, where Mr. Kordic took part in

24 your programmes, are they still in existence, those

25 tapes?

Page 13221

1 A. No, as far as I know. But in about one of

2 the programmes, there was a text in a newspaper and a

3 photograph. The paper was called Nasa Rijec.

4 And when you mention Kukanjac, I believe that

5 on the photograph there were Kukanjac, Kordic, and the

6 third one, was it Suvalic or somebody else, I don't

7 know, but that can be found in the archives, in the

8 documentation.

9 Q. But you are positive that the tapes do not

10 exist?

11 A. Listen, I am telling you about the radio

12 station, and to my knowledge, they do not exist at the

13 radio station.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, on those two

15 occasions when Mr. Kordic came, we shall agree, I

16 guess, that he never said anything bad about Muslims.

17 A. I'm sorry, I've got a cold. He did not say

18 anything bad about them, but neither did he say

19 anything good about them.

20 Q. But he referred positively to the HVO, as you

21 said, he referred favourably to the HVO, and that is

22 what you held against him when you said, "Well, it's

23 not the right thing to do," or something to that effect

24 that you said to him?

25 A. Yes, you are quite right. But that was not

Page 13222

1 the reason why I said that. I meant, "Why don't we

2 have the Territorial Defence here? Why aren't you

3 together?" That is what I meant. That is what I

4 meant, and that is why I said what I said.

5 Q. The first meeting, you know that there were

6 talks with General Kukanjac, so let me just draw the

7 attention of the Court to this. It had to do with

8 problems related to the Yugoslav People's Army or,

9 rather, the attitude to the JNA. That was the subject

10 of the talks. Why else would they invite General

11 Kukanjac?

12 A. I do not think that I was on duty on that

13 particular occasion. I think I was in the building

14 itself, but I wasn't doing that programme.

15 Q. Right. But do you remember the second

16 occasion? What was the subject of the second

17 programme, the one that was done in late May/early

18 June, '92, if you were there, of course? If you were

19 not --

20 A. I was there, and the subject was the defence

21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And then the -- it wasn't said,

22 but one could feel it in the air, that it wasn't a

23 common stand. Yes, we started off together, but now

24 somebody was trying to stand apart, to feel above the

25 rest, to somehow assume a different position. Of

Page 13223

1 course, we were bothered by that.

2 Q. But we agreed that Mr. Kordic did not say

3 anything bad about Muslims, nor made a deprecating

4 gesture, or anything like that?

5 A. No, nothing bad, but he wasn't for

6 co-operation. You know, he put it, perhaps, in not so

7 many words, but he somehow made it known that he wasn't

8 for co-operation.

9 Q. Very well. Towards you personally,

10 Mr. Kordic was always proper in his behaviour, wasn't

11 he?

12 A. Towards me personally, yes, he was proper and

13 correct, up until the last meeting. That last meeting

14 there, we were a little -- how shall I say it?

15 Q. Before we conclude, and I just have a few

16 more things to ask you, you said today that Mr. Kordic

17 used some terms like "Chetnik," "Ustasha," things like

18 that; and if he did, as you state, this was in the

19 context of the joint struggle against the aggressor,

20 was it not? Those were the subjects of discussion and

21 the main topics discussed on the programme?

22 A. Well, I don't want to say which context; I

23 can't really say, but I do state that these were the

24 terms used.

25 Q. You told us today -- well, can we agree that

Page 13224

1 that was your conclusion; that is to say, that

2 Mr. Kordic was a number-one man, or words to that

3 effect, in Central Bosnia? That is the conclusion that

4 you reached, was it not?

5 A. Well, it's not my conclusion.

6 Q. But you presented it to the Court?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But do we agree that you don't know exactly

9 which duties and in what period he performed them, that

10 is, from 1990 onwards?

11 A. In 1991, I know that he attended to military

12 matters in the Busovaca municipality, for example, but

13 what duties he performed afterwards, I don't know. But

14 I know that he was the boss, as they say. Everybody

15 had to ask him for everything.

16 Q. Mr. Hamzic, do try and speak in more precise

17 terms. You cannot give me any concrete example, can

18 you? For example, do you know that Kordic was the

19 vice-president of the HDZ in Herceg-Bosna, or anything

20 of that kind, or what people went to ask him?

21 A. Well, I don't really know what you have in

22 mind. I don't know.

23 Q. Well, you said that he had to be asked about

24 everything, and I say that you do not have any facts to

25 base that assumption of yours on. It is the conclusion

Page 13225

1 that you have brought in on the basis of stories told

2 by people.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

4 Mr. Naumovski, I think that we have already intervened

5 to tell you that you shouldn't enter into a debate with

6 the witness. Put questions to him, if you wish, but

7 this is not the place for arguing with the witness.

8 He told you what his impression was; that is

9 all. Now, if you have any specific questions, put them

10 to him, but do not argue with him. It is, of course,

11 up to the Chamber to draw its own conclusions on the

12 basis of all this.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

14 Honour. I accept what you have just said absolutely,

15 and if the witness agrees that it is only his opinion

16 and his conclusion, then I have no further questions to

17 ask him in that regard.

18 A. Well, it's not only my opinion. That was

19 what the situation was like, and I personally was not

20 in a situation to be able to check it out. But I think

21 everybody knew that, and that was my conclusion.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, very

23 well, then. I have no further questions. Thank you

24 for your patience, and I should like to thank the

25 witness as well.

Page 13226

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hamzic. My name is

3 Bozidar Kovacic. I am Defence counsel for Mr. Cerkez,

4 together with my learned colleague Mr. Mikulicic, and I

5 have a few questions to ask you by way of clarification

6 and to place what you have said in real time.

7 Tell us, please, Mr. Hamzic, you said that

8 you were not the -- that is to say that you were the

9 main technician, but let us just make it clear. You

10 were not an editor or a journalist in the programme,

11 were you?

12 A. No. Journalists are something else, sir, and

13 technicians are something else again.

14 Q. Very well, thank you. So you were on the

15 technical staff of Radio Zenica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But you did work there for a long time, and

18 could you, please, in the briefest possible terms,

19 although you did touch upon this in direct, the ethnic

20 composition of the Radio, that it was balanced, but you

21 did mention the lady director, Medina Delibasic, if I

22 understood you correctly, and she's of Muslim

23 ethnicity, is she not, judging by her name; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13227

1 Q. You also mentioned your colleague, Bilic.

2 He's a Croatian, is he not?

3 A. I can assume that he is of the Croat

4 ethnicity, judging by the surname. Of course, he

5 doesn't have to be, but I would say he is.

6 Q. Sir, I mention Bogoljub Ilic, and by

7 nationality, he is a Serb.

8 A. Very well, then, we have a Serb.

9 Q. And then you mentioned Ivica Tomic. He was

10 evidently a Croat because he was in the HVO; is that

11 right?

12 A. Well, I know he was a Catholic, but --

13 Q. Very well. The other editors were of a mixed

14 composition?

15 A. Of course.

16 Q. Tell me, please, so you lived in a

17 multi-ethnic community in Zenica? That is something we

18 are able to conclude on the basis of what you have told

19 us; is that right?

20 A. Yes, just as I do today. I live there today.

21 Q. And your education also took place in Zenica,

22 didn't it?

23 A. Yes, but I also went to additional training

24 courses in Sarajevo and Belgrade.

25 Q. Yes. But your childhood is linked and your

Page 13228

1 maturity is linked to Zenica, is it not?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I now have

4 several more questions to ask you and make use of your

5 expert knowledge. [Previous translation continues] ...

6 [In English] but I think it will be really prudent just

7 to get the basic information from this witness, because

8 he is the expert in the field, on what radio programmes

9 may have been heard by the population in the

10 municipalities we are dealing with, and probably about

11 TV programmes.

12 JUDGE MAY: Well, if the witness can help

13 us. At what stage are we talking about?

14 MR. KOVACIC: '92 and '93, possibly.

15 JUDGE MAY: And in which areas are the

16 programmes to be heard?

17 MR. KOVACIC: That is exactly what I would

18 like to ask him. He was a technical director, a

19 technical -- main technician, as he put it.

20 JUDGE MAY: You want to ask him where the

21 Radio Zenica programmes could be heard?

22 MR. KOVACIC: Exactly, sir, yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Perhaps the witness

24 can answer. In '92/'93, where could Radio Zenica be

25 heard, roughly?

Page 13229

1 A. Would you like me to tell you the kilometres

2 or the places where it could be heard?

3 JUDGE MAY: Presumably, it's the Lasva Valley

4 you're concerned about.

5 MR. KOVACIC: Exactly, sir.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. In the Lasva Valley,

7 please.

8 A. At that time, the programme could be heard in

9 Busovaca and the villages around Busovaca, also in

10 Vitez and the villages surrounding Vitez, in Zenica,

11 and on the other side as well; I don't think you're

12 interested in that.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. What about Novi Travnik?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So this means all the municipalities in the

17 Lasva River Valley; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In view of your profession, at that time

20 there was also the television station, and was it also

21 viewed in these same areas?

22 A. No. It was a local-type television station

23 for the town.

24 Q. It only covered Zenica, you mean?

25 A. Yes, just the town.

Page 13230

1 Q. Could you tell us, please, something else

2 about some other local television stations in these

3 three municipalities: Novi Travnik, Vitez, Busovaca?

4 Do you know about them or don't you, for example, in

5 the course of 1992?

6 A. I can only -- I apologise. I've got a bit of

7 a cold. I can only speak about Zenica. I don't know

8 about the others, because I did not leave Zenica.

9 Q. Thank you. I have just one more question.

10 In view of previous testimony, I should just

11 like to ask you whether you recall an event when some

12 Arab fighters were exchanged in Zenica and whether you

13 broadcast this on the radio, as a technician. This was

14 sometime in June 1993.

15 A. I don't know about that, but in principle,

16 Radio Zenica did not broadcast matters of that type.

17 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, I have no further

18 questions. Thank you so much. [Interpretation] Thank

19 you, Witness.

20 MR. NICE: Your honour, I've only got two

21 questions. As I note from the cross-examination, that

22 there doesn't appear to be any suggestion that Radio

23 Zenica was a legitimate target or anything of that

24 sort.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

Page 13231

1 Q. By the time you turned to the Territorial

2 Defence for their assistance, had they done anything

3 unilaterally to raise the tensions in the area, or not?

4 A. I don't think so, no, for the simple reason

5 that we asked security for the building, a man to be at

6 the entrance of the building; nothing else.

7 Q. You turned to the Territorial Defence, rather

8 than to the ordinary police. You've probably given the

9 answer to that. Were you, by doing that, taking sides

10 or intending to express an opinion about the sides of

11 this conflict, or were you just defending yourselves as

12 best you could?

13 A. Well, let me tell you. The conflict didn't

14 exist at that time. That was the first -- that's the

15 first point. Second, tension could be felt. I don't

16 understand why you're saying "sides," "taking sides,"

17 or anything. Why should we take sides? I don't

18 understand this.

19 Q. Thank you. Then finally Kordic and whether

20 he said anything bad or good about the Muslims. In the

21 context of those television programmes, what was the

22 effect of his saying nothing good about the Muslims?

23 A. Would you repeat that question, please,

24 because you mentioned television, radio. Could you ask

25 me that more precisely?

Page 13232

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

2 I have an objection to the question. The witness is

3 asked his opinion, and he has told us that he's not a

4 journalist, and he's asked about something that

5 Mr. Kordic said or didn't say.

6 JUDGE MAY: He can give his opinion. The

7 weight of it, of course, can be affected by whether he

8 was a journalist or not. I'm not sure that his being a

9 journalist would have helped very much.

10 MR. NICE: Thank you.

11 Q. It's the radio programmes again, and in the

12 context of those radio programmes, what, if anything,

13 was the effect of Kordic having nothing good to say

14 about the Muslims?

15 A. The effect? Well, tensions rose with the

16 people. That's my assessment.

17 MR. NICE: Yes, thank you. Nothing else of

18 this witness.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And of course it wasn't,

20 thinking about it, a matter of opinion; it was factual

21 evidence as to what the witness observed as a result of

22 the programmes.

23 Yes. Mr. Hamzic, that concludes your

24 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

25 Tribunal to give it. You are now released.

Page 13233

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, would it be convenient,

4 first of all, before we embark on any argument, to deal

5 with the tapes and tomorrow morning?

6 MR. NICE: Certainly, as they've now been

7 provided. I'm happy to say they were copied this

8 morning. I don't know what arrangements my friends are

9 going to be able to make this afternoon.

10 MR. STEIN: We are in the capable hands of

11 our courtroom registrar, who is apparently going to

12 make all the arrangements, and tells us tomorrow

13 afternoon we'll be able to view the tapes at the

14 detention centre with the client.

15 JUDGE MAY: That's no good, for tomorrow

16 morning, is it?

17 MR. STEIN: No, sir.

18 JUDGE MAY: It means that we waste tomorrow

19 morning.

20 How long would it take to play the tape

21 itself if we were to play it tomorrow morning? And

22 maybe we could postpone cross-examination or we'll try

23 and get it done tomorrow.

24 MR. NICE: I think, if you play it from end

25 to end, it's about 45 minutes, if my recollection is

Page 13234

1 correct. It may be that there will be times when the

2 Chamber will want it stopped, to look at something in

3 more detail. There may be times when the witness, who

4 knows the area, and knew the area very well, will want

5 to stop it, to draw your attention to damage that can

6 be seen. It may be that the Chamber will say, "Well,

7 frankly, it's now become more of the same. Why don't

8 you fast forward to the next village." So the time it

9 will take will be a little unpredictable. And it's not

10 -- I am not quite sure how useful it will be, but

11 since it's the only way of really giving you a real

12 visual impression of the area, or it's a way of giving

13 you a visual impression of the area, I think we ought

14 to lay the evidence before you, but I would have

15 thought 45 minutes, perhaps an hour, to allow for some

16 stops.

17 JUDGE MAY: I understand it may be possible

18 for arrangements to be made today, for it to be seen in

19 the detention unit this evening. I am just going to

20 inquire of the Registrar if that's still so.

21 Very well. Inquiries are going to be made

22 about that.

23 MR. NICE: Before I turn to the arguments, or

24 before the Chamber turns to the arguments, can I

25 mention again the tapes, and remind the Chamber that

Page 13235

1 there are the two witnesses dealing with the tapes.

2 We've made inquiries this morning, in light of the

3 nature of the objection that's been given, and it may

4 be possible to have both witnesses here next week. But

5 as I forecast, one of them is, I think, going to be

6 deployed or moved next week on official business to the

7 other side of the Atlantic, and it may be more

8 difficult to have him here after next week, at least

9 for some period of time.

10 Now, I'll just find my documents on this.

11 But if that one isn't required, then we can perhaps

12 proceed with just the witness next week. If he is

13 required, then I'd like to know -- well, pretty well

14 today. And then I'll put steps in motion in order for

15 him to be here.

16 I suspect, unless there is any reason why my

17 learned friends would not like the very helpful letter

18 they sent me yesterday not to go to the Chamber, but

19 this is an occasion when those few paragraphs could

20 usefully be read by the Chamber, because the Chamber

21 will be able to form its own view on whether, as I

22 forecast, the judgement will be that the witnesses will

23 have to be here for the argument on admissibility. To

24 that extent, I am in my friends hands, but I am quite

25 happy to make the copy available.

Page 13236

1 And I can tell my learned friends, because I

2 don't believe that either of these witnesses will be

3 seeking protection, but we always ought to be careful.

4 Perhaps I ought to be more careful than that. The

5 witness who is going to North America is the witness

6 with military rank, and I expect they will require him

7 to be here.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein, can you assist?

9 MR. STEIN: Assuming we -- we are talking in

10 oblique references, and sometimes I am a little lost,

11 but assuming I am on board on all of this, it is my

12 hope again during the recess this evening to chat with

13 Mr. Nice about this and see if we can come to some

14 arrangements, because I think my issues may be more

15 limited than he thinks they are. That's the best I can

16 say.

17 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps counsel could do it over

18 the adjournment, and let us know in the morning what

19 arrangements you've come to.

20 MR. STEIN: Glad to.

21 MR. NICE: In relation to the three witnesses

22 who fall for determination, the Chamber has had the

23 material in respect of a witness called Beese. I set

24 out my position, so far as he was concerned, some time

25 ago on the transcript. For ease of reference, can I

Page 13237

1 hand in three copies of what can be found on the

2 transcript --

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, before you launch into

4 this, there are three witnesses, you say, that we have

5 to talk about, or determine. One of them is the

6 expert. Now, it's 20 past, so we have got something

7 like 45 minutes. What is a convenient order to deal

8 with these?

9 MR. NICE: I think probably the expert

10 first. I was simply going to set the scene, hand in

11 the materials, such as they are, and make sure you've

12 got them.

13 JUDGE MAY: Let's come back to that. Let's

14 deal with the expert.

15 MR. NICE: So far as the expert is concerned,

16 very full documentation has been prepared by the

17 Defence and, on our side, by Ms. Somers and

18 Mr. Guariglia, who joins us, since we've lost Mr. Dixon

19 to the English bar. You will remember he helped us

20 with some of our draftings and pleadings before

21 Christmas. I'd ask Ms. Somers to deal with any

22 particular queries that arise -- the Chamber may have

23 in relation to our documentation, and it's really now a

24 matter for the Defence to make their objection.

25 MR. STEIN: And I am quite sorry, sir; I

Page 13238

1 thought we were doing this tomorrow. I have none of my

2 papers with me.

3 JUDGE MAY: There was a clear suggestion

4 earlier today that we might well be dealing with it

5 this afternoon. We have all the written materials. Is

6 there anything very much more that you want to add to

7 those?

8 MR. STEIN: Actually, there was. Yesterday I

9 was given the Prosecution's skeleton argument. I read

10 it briefly yesterday. The skeleton argument is a

11 better case for our case than my writings, because the

12 concessions and admissions made in it, and I don't have

13 it in front of me, are critical to the argument. So,

14 yes, there are more things to be said.

15 THE COURT: I suppose that's going to apply to

16 the other witnesses too. Are you in a position to deal

17 with them?

18 MR. STEIN: No, as to the other witnesses, I

19 have my --

20 JUDGE MAY: All right. We'll start with the

21 other witnesses.

22 MR. STEIN: I'm very sorry, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll put the expert aside.

24 MR. NICE: There are two other witnesses, one

25 of whom -- in respect of one of them there has been

Page 13239

1 some exchange of documentation. In respect of the

2 other one, there's been no such exchange.

3 The position in relation to both witnesses

4 is, in our respectful submission, that the evidence

5 simply has to be heard. In each case, a witness deals

6 first-hand with something of which, until now, there's

7 only been evidence that is not first-hand. There's

8 been complaint about the evidence not being first-hand,

9 and there has been clear assertion that what is being

10 said, particularly in relation to one of these matters,

11 is wholly false.

12 Having said that, we can break the witnesses

13 down into two. The first witness, I think, who arises

14 in time, relates to the checkpoint. I'll refer to him

15 obliquely, for fear of the possibility that he will

16 seek some protective measures.

17 JUDGE MAY: Have we got a summary or a

18 statement?

19 MR. NICE: If you haven't -- well, that

20 statement has yet to be served, in which case that's

21 another problem. But that's not an insuperable one.

22 It won't take us a second to go out and have it copied.

23 I can lay the groundwork for that. The

24 Chamber will recall, in general terms, the incident

25 itself. It's the killing of Mirsad Delija on the 20th

Page 13240

1 of January of 1993, said to have been preceded by an

2 incident at a checkpoint involving the defendant.

3 Various references to that were made, none of

4 them first-hand, and on the 4th of November, Witness T

5 spoke of it, was challenged as to the hearsay nature of

6 the evidence, and the clearest denial was advanced by

7 Mr. Naumovski. Your Honour, making observations both

8 about what Mr. Naumovski said but also the potentially

9 limited value of the material, as it then stood,

10 because it was not direct evidence.

11 You were persuaded to hear the evidence by

12 me, because of the fact that there was other similar

13 indirect evidence, but also, I think, because of a

14 forecast that more evidence might be forthcoming.

15 Immediately after seeing that witness here, and it must

16 be, although I can't remember now the precise detail,

17 it must be as a result of something that he was able to

18 say to us, or tell us. Further inquiries were

19 launched, indeed the following day, which were

20 responded to promptly, and which led to the

21 identification of the witness, who was seen at the

22 earliest possible moment.

23 His witness statement was again served at the

24 earliest possible moment, once it was available to us.

25 And as you will see from the statement, when it's laid

Page 13241

1 before you, is direct evidence of this important

2 incident. And accordingly, it is entirely appropriate

3 that the evidence should be before you. It's the best

4 evidence and will meet the objection, the recurring

5 objection about the indirect nature of the other

6 evidence upon which we would otherwise have to rely and

7 seek decision from the Chamber.

8 JUDGE MAY: Just before you move on. When

9 was that statement served on the Defence, about?

10 MR. NICE: December of last year. The

11 document that bears the date has just gone out for the

12 document to be copied.

13 The other statement is an entirely different

14 kind, but again it deals first-hand with something of

15 which we do not yet have first-hand evidence. Namely,

16 the defendant's direct contact with and, the Chamber

17 might judge, effective control or influence over

18 Petkovic. It comes from a witness called Beese. He's

19 an ECMM witness. And the Chamber will appreciate that

20 of course we didn't call every ECMM monitor, or seek to

21 do so, in the same way as we didn't seek to call each

22 and every available soldier. We had to make a

23 selection.

24 And it's in the nature of things that one's

25 initial selection may change, as information becomes

Page 13242

1 available. And a common source of information is that

2 witnesses, as you see them and speak to them, will say,

3 "Well, this is a witness to whom you should turn," or

4 "Perhaps you should consider this witness." That is

5 indeed, it appears, what happened in relation to the

6 very first witness, of whom I have been speaking.

7 Now, so far as the Witness Beese is

8 concerned, we were referred to him both outside Court

9 and, as you will see from a passage that I've had

10 copied for you today, inside Court, by Witness AB. I'm

11 corrected. AA. That witness, although -- funnily

12 enough, occupied exactly the same rank as, for example,

13 one of the witnesses we had yesterday, and the Witness

14 Stutt, who is proving somewhat problematic for

15 logistical reasons, but is otherwise an available

16 witness. But that particular Witness, AA, was subject

17 to the most extraordinary degree, no doubt proper, but

18 extraordinary degree of national bureaucratic control,

19 red tape, if you like.

20 We simply were not allowed direct and

21 informal contact with him until the day before he gave

22 evidence. Until that stage, everything had to be done

23 by complex procedures of specific questions and

24 appearances in other courts and all sorts of other

25 things, of which the Court can be aware in detail, and

Page 13243

1 will probably have some memory. But he was not

2 available as a witness to speak to in the ordinary way,

3 in the ordinary sort of conversation from which so much

4 useful material can be gathered. He told us, straight

5 away, that this was a witness, in his judgement, of

6 particular value, both because of the range of his

7 experience and also because of his character and

8 abilities. And that's then set out in the testimony he

9 gave to you.

10 Accordingly, we pursued that witness,

11 immediately after learning of his potential value from

12 Witness AA. His evidence, as you will have seen from

13 the material served, covers two distinct topics, in a

14 sense of value. One is the piece of direct evidence

15 for the checkpoint incident that he can deal with. And

16 at the moment I think he would be the only direct

17 witness of that. But he also provides a very useful

18 overview, from his experience, of events generally, and

19 in particular of the role of the defendant, Dario

20 Kordic.

21 The Chamber will have noted, from the way his

22 signed summary has been presented, that he provided,

23 unsolicited, a document, completely unsolicited, at the

24 so-called proofing session, and that document comes in

25 its original form, subject to just tidying up the odd

Page 13244

1 typographical error. But it's actually the original

2 document.

3 We know the complaints that were being made

4 at an earlier stage of this trial about the

5 unreliability of material provided, because of the

6 intervention and partisan intervention of

7 investigators, and I suppose even of lawyers. That

8 doesn't apply here. The witness simply produced, in

9 order to assist us and save time, his own report. That

10 report contains views that are in line with some of the

11 views you've heard, not necessarily in line with all of

12 them, but very valuable views on what was happening and

13 what Kordic's role was.

14 You will notice from the material served that

15 not only was his factual account of the meeting with

16 Kordic backed by a contemporaneous note in handwriting

17 of some detail, thus to be counted as entirely

18 reliable, but his views on Kordic were backed by a

19 typed document, of which a one-page extract or two-page

20 extract have been provided, prepared not

21 contemporaneously, but in the following year, but in no

22 way for purposes connected with this hearing; simply as

23 his own historical record of what he had done and of

24 the views that he had formed.

25 I think, if asked about it, he would say,

Page 13245

1 perhaps modestly, it was a document prepared for his

2 grandchildren, i.e. he wasn't preparing a document for

3 publication. You know enough people did that. He was

4 just preparing a thoughtful and detailed record of

5 events. But he was able to produce to us, and thus to

6 you, a couple of pages of that document, that go to

7 show, first, that these were his own entirely

8 unsolicited opinions at the time, and to back up the

9 time when those opinions were formed.

10 I say that his opinions match some, but not

11 necessarily all of the other opinions and judgements

12 that you've heard. You may judge that they are very

13 close to the evidence of the confidential witness of

14 yesterday and the day before, or close to. But our

15 policy, in prosecuting this case, has, from the

16 beginning, not been to try and serve you up with

17 uniform opinions. On the contrary, it would be

18 unhelpful and unrealistic to do that. Our policy has

19 been to make available to you the best evidence coming

20 from well-informed and experienced people, confident

21 that, A, the Court will make its own judgement, on the

22 basis of what it hears; and B, that where opinions

23 cover a range, as they are bound to do, that's probably

24 going to be more helpful, and ultimately going to

25 enable you the better to distil both fact, judgement

Page 13246

1 and opinion, to reach the proper conclusion.

2 So, in our submission, this witness equally

3 is a witness who really has to be heard, because of his

4 ability to deal with first-hand material. And

5 secondly, on the other topic, he is a witness who will

6 be of very great value to you.

7 The date of the service of his document on

8 the Defence, now that Ms. Verhaag is back -- let me

9 deal with it in order. Going back to the first

10 witness. The first witness was served on the 9th of

11 December. Dealing with the second witness, Beese, he

12 was served on the 6th of January, which I think was

13 pretty well the day after he was seen. And that was

14 the very first day upon which it was possible to see

15 him. The Chamber will recall that I raised his

16 evidence as soon as we reconvened. He has made himself

17 available for much of the time, and although he has

18 commitments, I think, over the next week or so, he is

19 available to come and give evidence here.

20 So those are our applications.

21 JUDGE MAY: The Rules governing the matter,

22 Mr. Nice, if you can assist us with this. 73 bis, the

23 new Rule 73 bis (D) provides that after commencement of

24 the trial, the Prosecutor may, if he or she considers

25 it to be in the interests of justice, file a motion to

Page 13247

1 reinstate the list of witnesses or to vary his or her

2 decision as to which witnesses are to be called.

3 So, presumably, we are considering a motion

4 under that Rule. And, of course, the governing Rule,

5 as far as evidence is concerned, is 89(B):

6 "... A Chamber shall apply Rules of Evidence

7 which best favour a fair determination of the matter

8 before it, and are consonant with the spirit of the

9 Statute and the general principles of law.

10 "(C) A Chamber may admit any relevant

11 evidence which it deems to have probative value.

12 And (D):

13 It may exclude evidence if its probative

14 value is substantially outweighed by the need to ensure

15 a fair trial.

16 Those are the governing principles.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I should have perhaps

18 just add this, these two points: One, we've made it

19 plain to the Chamber from the beginning that the

20 witness list was inevitably going to change, both, of

21 course, the pruning of the vast proportion of it,

22 because we had to serve the maximum list, in our

23 judgement. And we, of course, in the event, called

24 whatever it is, less than two-thirds of the names on

25 the list.

Page 13248

1 We also made it plain that, in the nature of

2 this type of investigation, names do crop up later,

3 because particularly of the changing confidence of

4 witnesses as time passes. And it's a common feature of

5 witnesses. This perhaps relates more to the first than

6 to the second. It's a common feature of witnesses that

7 once they are here in The Hague, for example, and they

8 have come to face the reality of giving evidence here,

9 they sometimes are able to be much more open, because

10 there are less, perhaps, anxieties on them than when

11 they are seen in inevitably more tense circumstances in

12 Bosnia.

13 The second point is this, and I don't really

14 rely on this very heavily, but it is a fact that, as

15 time has passed, witnesses on our notified list have

16 been excised. For example, there is a witness on the

17 last detailed notification of witnesses to be called,

18 called Thomas. He is not actually ECMM. He covers the

19 same general area. He is a military man. And we are

20 going to delete him from the list.

21 There are other witnesses, such as, for

22 example, a man called Remi Landry, who we are hoping to

23 deal with by way of a transcript, and so on. So that

24 there have, of course, been deletions. I am not doing

25 that to suggest that there should be in any sense a

Page 13249

1 trading off, but I have been meticulous throughout the

2 preparation of these witness lists, as I explained at

3 an earlier stage, to try and reduce to the proper

4 minimum those who have to be called; to seek every

5 means of laying evidence before you in a method by

6 means other than live testimony, wherever that's been

7 possible; to delete witnesses who really can't help

8 you. And it's against that background that I ask you

9 to say that these two witnesses really are witnesses

10 who should now be heard.

11 JUDGE MAY: And, presumably, you would also

12 say that the Court has an inherent power to hear

13 probative evidence, no matter what the procedural

14 background.

15 MR. NICE: Certainly, it does, and indeed, as

16 I've indicated on at least two occasions, the Court is

17 always within a position to call witnesses itself. But

18 it seems to us that if we come to know of witnesses

19 whose evidence may be relevant and helpful, that we

20 should take the burden of seeking to have them called

21 by us.

22 JUDGE MAY: And have you got now the summary

23 of the checkpoint witness?

24 MR. NICE: Not the summary, but the witness

25 -- the statement itself. It's not very long. I'm

Page 13250

1 sorry, it hasn't been summarised. Can I hand it in.

2 And there is a French copy for -- an English and French

3 for His Honour Judge Bennouna, and one copy each for

4 Your Honours, a copy for the Registrar.

5 The Chamber will see that the document has

6 been prepared substantially as a summary, perhaps in a

7 rather more helpful format and one that may be used

8 more hereafter. Because we are in open session, and

9 the evidence is the subject of objection, it will

10 obviously be inappropriate to do more than draw Your

11 Honours' attention to various particular paragraphs.

12 Paragraph 6, as an example, and 8, and, of course, over

13 the page at paragraph 12. And simply to remind the

14 Chamber of the overall setting of this evidence,

15 paragraph 18 will, I think, remind you of how it fits

16 in.

17 Other indirect evidence on this topic, of

18 which you've heard already, comes from, I think,

19 Witness T and Witness J. Unless I can help further at

20 this stage.

21 JUDGE MAY: No, thank you. Yes, Mr. Sayers.

22 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, if I may say so,

23 I think we feel as if we've been subjected to the

24 judicial equivalent of the Heisenberg principle, which

25 affects quantum physics, the principle of uncertainty;

Page 13251

1 we never know who the witnesses are going to be. We've

2 prepared, of course, for Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas, and

3 now we find out, for the first time today, that

4 apparently he is not going to testify. Be that as it

5 may.

6 I think you have accurately outlined,

7 Mr. President, the governing considerations, and I

8 think these two applications present, frankly,

9 different perspectives.

10 Let me deal first with the witness for whom

11 the statement has just been presented to the Trial

12 Chamber.

13 JUDGE MAY: Call him the checkpoint witness,

14 as he's been referred to.

15 MR. SAYERS: Yes. I think, obviously, we've

16 previously articulated to the Trial Chamber our general

17 position, and that general position is that the

18 previous orders of this Court required all witnesses to

19 be identified by a certain date; many, many, many

20 months ago, witness statements to be presented to us.

21 Again, many, many months ago, and that was after two

22 extensions.

23 And so, as a matter of general principle, we

24 object to late blooming witnesses appearing out of the

25 ether, so to speak, at a very advanced stage of the

Page 13252

1 case. It almost suggests that we are being -- we are

2 seeing evolving before our very eyes what one of the

3 Trial Chambers referred to as juridical impressionism,

4 a case that is sort of making itself up as we go

5 along.

6 But let me just remark this way, Your

7 Honour. With respect to the witness, the checkpoint

8 witness, I think that witness stands in a different

9 category from the second witness.

10 JUDGE MAY: Just to remind ourselves, that

11 was an issue which appeared in the evidence of two

12 witnesses, and there was evidence which was given, as

13 it were, triple-hand hearsay, I recollect, that

14 somebody had said something at the checkpoint. We now

15 have the witness from the checkpoint. It's difficult

16 to say that isn't to the point.

17 MR. SAYERS: My point precisely, Your

18 Honour. Obviously, general principles have to yield,

19 in particular instances, to developments in a case

20 which cry out for and call for particular evidence that

21 may not have been able to be forecasted at an earlier

22 stage of the case and has to be responsive to what has

23 happened during the case, and I think that the

24 checkpoint witness certainly falls into that category.

25 While we're not willing to waive our general

Page 13253

1 objections to the addition of these late-blooming

2 witnesses, we certainly have an obligation of candour

3 to the Court, I think, to acknowledge that this

4 situation would certainly fall into those situations

5 where, arguably, good cause could be shown because of

6 evidentiary developments during the case.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, and it applies particularly

8 in these sort of cases which go on for months, and

9 there are bound to be developments.

10 Well, we'll just consider that for a moment,

11 and then we'll turn to the next witness.

12 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, as far as this checkpoint

14 witness is concerned, given the very fair concession

15 which Mr. Sayers made -- fair but inevitable, I might

16 say, given the state of the evidence -- we shall admit

17 that evidence.

18 We'll now turn to deal with the next

19 witness.

20 MR. SAYERS: The next witness, Your Honour, I

21 believe stands in a completely different category from

22 the witness with whom you've just dealt.

23 The Prosecution has obviously had, I think,

24 about five years to prepare this case. They initially

25 identified, as the Trial Chamber well knows, about 375

Page 13254

1 witnesses, and they are now down to about a hundred.

2 We've seen a veritable procession of ECMM witnesses;

3 12, by my count, to date, with three more forecast in

4 the future.

5 The gentleman under discussion was not on the

6 witness list, and we did not get any kind of a

7 statement from this witness until after the witness of

8 whom he was deputy, Witness AA, had testified, and I'm

9 sure there is no need to remind the Chamber as to what

10 happened during the testimony of Witness AA or why, his

11 having testified, it's now necessary to find a

12 substitute for that witness. This witness was

13 identified seven months after the May the 17th deadline

14 imposed by the Court.

15 Apparently, this witness, according to the

16 Prosecution, is an important witness, but I ask and

17 implore the Trial Chamber to consider this: Why? He

18 met Mr. Kordic, by his own concession, a grand total of

19 once, once in his entire tour, tour of duty with the

20 European Community Monitoring Mission.

21 He's not offered, Mr. President, for the

22 facts which he is going to bring to this Trial

23 Chamber. It's absolutely obvious -- it fairly pours

24 from the papers that have been placed before the Trial

25 Chamber that he is being produced to offer pure opinion

Page 13255

1 testimony.

2 The one meeting that he had with Mr. Kordic

3 was on May the 5th, 1993, and apparently Witness AA was

4 present at that meeting too.

5 The other fact about which he is supposed to

6 offer evidence is apparently a telephone conversation

7 involving Brigadier Petkovic on the 28th of April, but

8 the Trial Chamber has heard plenty of evidence about

9 that telephone conversation already.

10 We take the position that those two limited

11 facts are really not why this witness is being brought

12 before the Trial Chamber at all, and I think that it

13 will be clear as I go through the recitation of the

14 opinions, which this gentleman apparently is going to

15 offer.

16 And I might point out that one of the reasons

17 cited by the Prosecution was that they didn't know

18 about the critical significance of this witness until

19 Witness AA had testified. But I'm sure the Trial

20 Chamber will recall that Witness AA only mentioned this

21 witness once, and then in connection with one exhibit,

22 Exhibit Z1012, which was a preliminary analysis of HV

23 presence in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and concluded that it

24 was very difficult to prove the allegations of HV

25 involvement, and that there was only a trickle of

Page 13256

1 confirmed proof up to that date, and that was a June

2 the 3rd, 1993, report.

3 But apparently this witness is not content to

4 be confined to the two limited facts which the

5 Prosecution tenders him for. He's got three pages of

6 opinions and views that apparently he generated

7 specially on January the 5th of this year. I think

8 it's unfortunate that perhaps those opinions have been

9 supplied to the Trial Chamber. I assume they have, and

10 since they have, let's just review what this gentleman

11 is going to say.

12 According to this witness, all of the --

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, the fact that the

14 Trial Chamber has been given material, as we've said

15 before, is totally irrelevant. We are professional

16 judges and well able to disregard irrelevant matter, so

17 you needn't trouble about that.

18 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much indeed for

19 that observation, Mr. President. Let me just touch

20 lightly, then, upon the opinions which this gentleman

21 is apparently going to offer.

22 Apparently, in his view, every HVO president

23 of every municipality falls into the category of

24 Mafiosi. That opinion is stated twice by this

25 gentleman. Apparently, these Mafiosi mayors seek, with

Page 13257

1 the assistance of Mate Boban, to impose their will upon

2 the territory of Herceg-Bosna with terrorism. They are

3 supported by a sympathetic nationalist, President

4 Tudjman. Apparently, these Mafiosi engaged in a

5 campaign of greed and terrorism, or HDZ politicians

6 like Mr. Valenta, for example, were, like the HVO

7 presidents in the municipalities, Mafiosi too; all of

8 the irregular militia referred to as thugs --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down,

10 please.

11 MR. SAYERS: Mr. Kordic specifically is, once

12 again, supposed to be the cousin of Mr. Boban, which we

13 believe to be factually off the mark. He's described

14 as a Walter Mitty thug filled with self-importance,

15 fuelled by his own arrogance, and intellectually dim,

16 and there is a statement made of the, one might say,

17 notorious Ivica Rajic. And also there is a conclusion

18 that it might be possible, in the opinion of this

19 witness, to reach the conclusion that Mr. Kordic is

20 responsible for a variety of war crimes.

21 Frankly, Your Honour, it seems to me that all

22 of those sorts of opinions, deductions, conclusions,

23 are precisely what the Trial Chamber's obligation is to

24 determine.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 13258

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, we need trouble you

2 no more. We --

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm so sorry. If

4 there's an objection, I would like to be heard in

5 relation to it.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, of course.

7 MR. NICE: The --

8 JUDGE MAY: Well, we better hear the other

9 one Mr. Sayers wanted to say, if there's anything

10 else.

11 MR. SAYERS: Two remaining points, Your

12 Honour, and I'll be very brief because I think we've

13 taken enough time on this already.

14 The first is that apparently this witness

15 thinks that he is able to go through and determine what

16 we should see, what's relevant in the diary. Only two

17 days, I think pages 77 and 89 of this -- or 82 of this

18 diary were produced, but there's nothing of a personal

19 nature that's in there. If this witness is permitted

20 to testify, and we believe that he should not be, then

21 obviously we should be permitted to see the pertinent

22 diary entries that cover his tour of duty.

23 Just concluding, though, this witness was not

24 timely identified. There's no need for him, unlike the

25 earlier witness that we described. This witness is not

Page 13259

1 necessary, certainly, and not helpful, and purely

2 cumulative of evidence that's already before this

3 Court.

4 That's all I have to say. Thank you, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

7 Mr. Nice, you have had quite a long go at

8 this, but anyway --

9 MR. NICE: Yes. But this is an objection,

10 and Your Honours are not being necessarily accurately

11 informed, I'm sure by oversight. But the position

12 is -- well, first of all, let's just look at what's

13 said.

14 As to whether there's some reasons to do with

15 Witness AA and my calling this witness, absolutely

16 not. I don't know why that should be thought. As far

17 as I'm concerned, Witness AA stands as a witness of

18 integrity. That's an unfortunate point to suggest.

19 I've told the Chamber exactly how I came to learn of

20 this man and why he became important.

21 But now in the course of Witness AA's

22 evidence, my learned friend Mr. Sayers said this, in

23 relation to the 28th January checkpoint -- April

24 incident. He said, "It's true that you had no idea

25 what, if anything, Mr. Kordic actually did to arrange

Page 13260

1 for the release of the convoy," and it's to that part,

2 that part, that if you look at the signed summary,

3 paragraph 5(b), for the 28th of April, and if you then,

4 in the attachments, turn over to the first of the

5 handwritten contemporaneous notes, you will discover

6 why this witness falls into precisely the same category

7 as the previous witness on this topic. Because he and

8 he alone -- we didn't know this before, but he and he

9 alone is able to say, as summarised at 5(b), but as

10 amplified in his own investigator's notes, as it

11 were -- he wasn't an investigator, but it's just like

12 an investigator's notes -- sets out exactly what

13 happened. And at that meeting, he says that Petkovic

14 was unable to order Kordic to release the convoys, and

15 he, Petkovic, had to explain to Kordic that it was for

16 Kordic's own good, and that's a critical piece of

17 evidence -- not critical, but it's an extremely

18 important piece of evidence.

19 JUDGE MAY: But you've got the point. Why

20 didn't you have it to begin with? You've had access to

21 the ECMM. It appears that they've been very

22 co-operative and provided you with a great deal of

23 information.

24 MR. NICE: They have indeed.

25 JUDGE MAY: The Defence say that you have had

Page 13261

1 five years to produce this evidence.

2 MR. NICE: But, Your Honour, we simply don't

3 have the resources to go to everyone. We have to make

4 selections. Selections have been made, they have been

5 varied, and I've explained precisely how it is that

6 these things develop.

7 But that piece of evidence is in exactly the

8 same category as with the previous witness, and I make

9 it quite plain that I would call the witness, with

10 leave, for that piece of evidence on its own, because

11 absent that piece of evidence, then you're going to be

12 left with the story of inference, that is to say, what

13 Witness AA said and what then happened, and maybe all

14 sorts of arguments about what may have happened in

15 between. And that would simply be wrong. It would be

16 not to fulfil, in my respectful submission, your

17 mission to seek out the truth.

18 It also has the inevitable effect that if the

19 defendant himself were called and denied that, then I

20 would be seeking to call this evidence in rebuttal.

21 But it's clearly being effectively challenged that he

22 did what, by inference, he did from the questions that

23 Mr. Sayers asked. There's no admission that this

24 passage is anything like correct. So before we get on

25 to the --

Page 13262

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

2 the argument which was submitted by Mr. Sayers was to

3 say that the Chamber has already had sufficient

4 evidence on this question of the telephone

5 conversation. You are now telling us that what was

6 provided here was never provided before, that it is a

7 new element, that this witness will contribute a new

8 element to the evidence. Is that what you are saying?

9 MR. NICE: Certainly, it's a new element in

10 the jigsaw.

11 Incidentally, there's a tendency of my

12 learned friends to latch on to observations that they

13 think will be helpful and to use them repeatedly.

14 Juridical impressionism, I think, was a

15 phrase coined not to describe the uncertainty of things

16 but for a fact that evidence comes in different pieces,

17 like a jigsaw, as it always does, and the problem with

18 jigsaws is finding the next bit or the last bit. And

19 it is very important, when other pieces of the jigsaw

20 are available, that they are slotted in, for if they

21 are not slotted in when they are available, a false

22 picture may emerge, or a wrong piece of evidence may be

23 fitted into the wrong space. And 5(b) is an additional

24 and important piece of evidence. It can be

25 cross-examined to if it is incorrect, it can be

Page 13263

1 acknowledged if it is correct, but the Chamber will not

2 be left to guess. And as I say, that evidence is

3 evidence on its own which I would seek leave to call

4 from this witness.

5 I note what is said about his opinions and

6 about the Mafia and all those sorts of things, and the

7 Chamber may recall -- it may not have been clear from

8 Witness AA. It may be something we were told

9 privately, but the importance of this witness includes

10 that he had a wider view because he was down in

11 Herzegovina.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, I

13 think we have heard enough about this testimony for the

14 moment. We have all the arguments. You're telling us

15 that there will be a part of the testimony that will be

16 "original," in quotation marks, and we will now confer

17 on the matter.

18 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

19 JUDGE MAY: Well, we are persuaded by

20 Mr. Nice's last argument, just to allow this witness to

21 be called on the narrow point that is referred to in

22 5(b). His opinions and the rest of it we shall

23 exclude. We do so, as I say, because we are just

24 persuaded by the argument, the argument being that this

25 is an important piece of evidence and, therefore, to

Page 13264

1 exclude it for some procedural reason would not be fair

2 upon the Prosecution.

3 But nonetheless, we must make the point, and

4 we underline it, that the Prosecution have had five

5 years to put this case together also, and it is a pity,

6 when matters arise at this very last moment. We trust

7 that we won't be faced with many more of these, if

8 any.

9 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. If there are

10 any more, they will only be for the same procedural

11 historical reasons.

12 I know it's time to probably -- it's never

13 for me to say that, but I forecast the Chamber may be

14 minded to adjourn. But can I, while we're talking

15 about the ECMM, mention something? I hadn't remembered

16 to mention it to my learned friends earlier, but I must

17 mention it now.

18 His Honour Judge Bennouna made reference last

19 week to the general provision of ECMM documents, and

20 the position is we aren't authorised by the providers

21 to make blanket disclosure. I think this position has

22 been revealed before. It's no expression of view of

23 ours one way or the other. I know what my personal

24 view might be, because I always favour ease and general

25 disclosure as a matter of personal opinion, but we

Page 13265

1 simply aren't authorised to disclose more than that

2 which we ourselves put in. So if they would like to

3 discuss that with me afterwards, we'll see what regime

4 can be brought about to assist them.

5 But I would hate the Court to think that I'm

6 not being responsive to His Honour Judge Bennouna's

7 observation in the course of discussion last week when

8 I don't do that which I'm simply not allowed to.

9 JUDGE MAY: I'll find out what the position

10 about the tape for tomorrow is.

11 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

12 JUDGE MAY: The tape is available. We have

13 to make an order that it should be available for

14 viewing in the detention unit, and we so do. So it

15 will be available tonight, and we'll see it tomorrow.

16 MR. NICE: Shall we take the argument about

17 the expert's report first thing? Would that be

18 convenient?

19 JUDGE MAY: I should think so, yes, and then

20 go on to the video.

21 Very well. We'll adjourn until 9 tomorrow

22 morning.


24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 4.13 p.m., to be reconvened on

Page 13266

1 Friday, the 28th day of January, 1999,

2 at 9 a.m.