Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13796

1 Thursday, 3 February, 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-95-14/2-T.

7 The Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers.

9 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.


11 Examined by Ms. Somers:

12 Q. Mr. Ahmic, yesterday when we left off, just

13 to assist you in catching up, we discussed the issue of

14 Mr. Vujica and his affiliation in special units. You

15 indicated that he was wearing a Jokers patch and, in

16 fact, there was no attempt to hide that. Continuing

17 from that point, did you spend any time at all with

18 Mr. Vujica for any reason while you were at Kratine?

19 A. Yes, I spent the whole night with him,

20 because when we reached the Kratine, we were asked to

21 dig trenches, and we did until nightfall. However, as

22 I wear contact lenses, I can't see very well at night.

23 So I asked him to release me of this duty during the

24 night, so that I shouldn't hurt myself or something

25 like that. And then he said that was okay, and that I

Page 13797

1 could stay with him. So we spent the whole night

2 together.

3 Q. Did you know Mr. Vujica from any previous

4 time, or did any member of your family know

5 Mr. Vujica?

6 A. Actually, when we got there, he recognised

7 me. I didn't recognise him immediately, because he

8 knew my wife, who is from Busovaca. And so they knew

9 each other. I don't know exactly whether they went to

10 school together or worked together. And since I would

11 go there often, he recognised me.

12 Q. In the course of your discussions with him

13 during the night, did you discuss any aspect of Ahmici?

14 A. In the course of our conversations, which

15 focused on some very general questions, I mentioned

16 that I didn't know what had happened to our house down

17 there. And his answer, when I -- when he asked me to

18 explain where the house was situated, I did so, and he

19 said that the house was most certainly destroyed, that

20 I shouldn't count on it, because it no longer existed.

21 Q. Now, this discussion took place approximately

22 one week after the incident at Ahmici; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, roughly so. Yes.

24 Q. Did you have any conclusions or fears --

25 excuse me -- any conclusions about the level of

Page 13798

1 Mr. Vujica's knowledge after that conversation,

2 knowledge relative to the attack on Ahmici?

3 A. Well, judging by the way he told me what had

4 happened to our house, my conclusion was that either he

5 had been there at the time or immediately afterwards.

6 I do believe that he had relevant data about the event.

7 Q. Returning to the discussion about Miroslav

8 Bralo, whom you also heard called Cicko. Did Bralo

9 force any of the persons in your company or yourself to

10 do anything which contravened your own religious

11 practices?

12 A. Yes. When we got there, when we had been

13 brought to Kratine, Cicko said something like, "You

14 can't begin working until you cross yourself. Those

15 are our customs." And he asked who of us knew how to

16 make the sign of the cross. I happened to know. And

17 he told me that I should teach all the others, because

18 those who didn't know would be killed.

19 Q. Now, were the others also all Muslims, as far

20 as you knew?

21 A. Absolutely all of them. At least the group

22 of five or six of us who came there together.

23 Q. Did Bralo have any weapons that suggested

24 that he might, in fact, carry out his threat to kill?

25 A. At the time, that is while we were there, he

Page 13799

1 didn't have any weapon on him, except an axe, and he

2 threatened with this axe. And he threatened to kill us

3 with an axe. He would wave this axe about.

4 Q. Can you describe the conditions under which

5 you were forced to dig trenches at Kratine, including

6 the number of days and whether or not you were provided

7 with rest?

8 A. The group I was in stayed for about four

9 nights, as far as I can remember. We worked during the

10 night and the day, with occasional rests for about half

11 an hour, and then during the night perhaps for two or

12 three hours we were allowed to rest.

13 The conditions under which we worked were

14 such that we were on the front line. There was

15 crossfire, so that we were in a situation in which we

16 were exposed to danger. But luckily no one in the

17 group was hurt.

18 Q. One last quick question on this point. Where

19 was the Kuber feature relative to the front line?

20 A. The Kuber feature was slightly above; that

21 is, at least they said it was Kuber. And between us

22 and Kuber, there was a valley of some 300 metres, and

23 Kuber was just above. That is the positions from where

24 the fire came at us.

25 Q. On or about the 25th of April, did you

Page 13800

1 observe any violence by Bralo upon detainees?

2 A. Yes, I did. We were in a trench which was

3 just behind the house in which HVO soldiers rested, and

4 I think it was one afternoon when I saw Cicko with

5 three young men, and he ordered them to run around a

6 stable, to lie down, to get up, to crawl and things

7 like that.

8 Q. Do you know their fate?

9 A. I don't know exactly, but this HVO soldier

10 who was in the trench where we were, he said, "The fool

11 is bound to kill them."

12 Q. Moving on to your time after release from

13 Kratine, which occurred approximately the 26th -- I'm

14 sorry, when you were visited by the Red Cross at

15 Kratine, which was about the 26th of April, when did

16 you actually leave Kratine and where were you returned

17 to?

18 A. This might have been -- though I'm not sure

19 of any dates, but it was some four or five days after

20 we had been taken there. We were brought back late at

21 night, about midnight, to the SDK building from where

22 we had been taken in the first place.

23 Q. And then from there, did you go anywhere for

24 final registration before being released?

25 A. Yes. We were in the SDK building for a

Page 13801

1 couple of days, and then the guards who were guarding

2 us said we could go home, as if we had been released.

3 But before that, we had to go to the cinema building,

4 where we were registered for the Red Cross, and on the

5 way out, we were also registered by the HVO.

6 Q. Do you know who registered you, and what was

7 the type of questioning that was addressed in that

8 registration? What were you asked about?

9 A. Yes, I know. A young woman was there. I

10 knew her by sight from town. Her name was Badrov, her

11 surname, rather. I know because she had a brother who

12 played basketball, so I knew the family. She was

13 wearing a camouflage uniform. And apart from the

14 essential data like name, date and so on, the question

15 was whether we wanted to stay in Vitez or to leave in

16 the direction of Travnik or Zenica.

17 Q. Was Ms. Badrov wearing any HVO patches, if

18 you recall?

19 A. Yes. HVO, I think she had on her sleeve, or

20 a badge on her pocket. I can't remember exactly.

21 Q. If you were to go to either Zenica or

22 Travnik, how did the HVO propose to get you there?

23 A. As we were leaving the cinema building, buses

24 were already parked in front, and those who were ready

25 to go could leave immediately. This option was

Page 13802

1 available on a daily basis. If I recollect well, I

2 think there were a couple of buses leaving in both

3 directions around 11 every day.

4 Q. And those buses were provided by the HVO; is

5 that correct?

6 A. I suppose so, because I don't see anyone else

7 doing it at that time.

8 Q. And what decision did you make about staying

9 or leaving Vitez?

10 A. My family and I had spent some 25 or 24 years

11 in Vitez, so we just couldn't conceive of the idea of

12 leaving. We could never imagine having to leave

13 Vitez. So we thought -- we were all persuaded that

14 this wouldn't last long and that we should endure for a

15 couple of days and that things would settle down.

16 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we can speed things up.

17 You decided to stay in Vitez, did you, Mr. Ahmic?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE MAY: Just help me with this: You

20 mentioned the SDK building. What was it used for

21 before the war?

22 A. It was a building of the institute for

23 payments, public auditing, so that various payments

24 were made in the premises; for instance, if you took

25 your driver's test, and also for any transfer of

Page 13803

1 payments from one company to another.

2 JUDGE MAY: So it was an office, office

3 building?

4 A. Yes, yes.



7 Q. When you returned to your apartment building,

8 do you recall any conversations you had with an HVO

9 soldier by the name of Ivica from Zenica?

10 A. Yes. Quite by chance, I met him. He would

11 come to visit the area occasionally, and he would enter

12 the basements where most of us were. He would help

13 some people by giving them some cigarettes or medicine,

14 so obviously he was in charge of that particular

15 district. One day, we were in my apartment, having

16 coffee, and again we had a general discussion.

17 Q. Did the discussion turn to the morning of

18 April the 16th, and if it did, what was said by Ivica?

19 A. Yes, quite by chance. I can't remember the

20 context of the conversation, but I do remember that he

21 said that he was woken up at 2 in the morning, on

22 the 16th, that there was an alarm, and that they had to

23 go into action. And then, having realised that he had

24 revealed more than he wanted, he said -- he added, "We

25 were expecting an attack."

Page 13804

1 Q. Where was Ivica's unit based? Where was he

2 housed at the time, in Vitez?

3 A. In the hotel.

4 Q. Is that the Hotel Vitez?

5 A. Yes. Yes. That's what he said.

6 Q. Moving on to about the 15th of May. Do you

7 recall an incident in which a Golf vehicle with

8 soldiers approached your apartment building? HVO

9 soldiers, if I may add that, please.

10 A. Yes, I do remember. Of course, I don't

11 remember the exact date. But I remember the vehicle.

12 Q. Were any or all of the soldiers wearing any

13 patches which may have suggested they were in special

14 units?

15 A. Let me see. Since they was some 20 or 30

16 metres away, I did not see the insignia on their

17 uniforms. But as my wife and I were on the balcony at

18 the time, she did see it, and she even recognised an

19 old acquaintance of hers.

20 Q. And who was that?

21 A. I think she told me that the guy's name was

22 Oliver Petrovic. They went to the same elementary

23 school together.

24 Q. And did she at that moment describe to you

25 the type of patch which she saw?

Page 13805

1 A. Yes. She said they were Jokers. And that's

2 what she said, "The Jokers had come, and I recognised

3 Oliver."

4 Q. I would like to ask the usher to please show

5 to the witness a piece of paper bearing a name which

6 should not be read out loud, if he identifies it, and

7 should remain under seal after shown to the bench and

8 counsel. Please do not comment out loud.

9 Mr. Ahmic, with reference to the name which

10 you have seen, do you recognise that name, again

11 without mentioning it?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Connected with the incident of the HVO

14 soldiers, at least one of whom was wearing a Jokers

15 patch that day, what happened with the woman whose name

16 is on that piece of paper, if you can recall?

17 A. The soldiers who came in that vehicle, I

18 think there were five of them -- four or five soldiers;

19 two or three of them entered the building. And just

20 then my wife and I went to the other room, because it

21 wasn't a good idea to be seen when soldiers were around

22 the building. So we went to the other room and we

23 peeped out behind the curtain. And we saw them take

24 this person out, the person whose name was on this

25 piece of paper. They put her in the car and drove

Page 13806

1 off. I don't know where.

2 Q. Did you know this person? Had she been a

3 long-time resident of that building?

4 A. Yes, as far as I can remember -- for as long

5 as I can remember, she had been there.

6 Q. If you recall, were any of her family members

7 with her at the time, without giving names?

8 A. As far as I know, there were two members of

9 the family, two children, and I think that the husband

10 was not in Vitez at all at that time.

11 Q. Moving on to the 8th or 9th of June. Was

12 your apartment entered by any HVO soldiers in the early

13 hours of the morning, and if so, for what purpose?

14 A. Yes, that's right. It was sometime late in

15 the evening, perhaps after 12, or around about 1

16 a.m., we were getting ready to go to bed. Somebody

17 knocked on the door. I opened the door, and a soldier

18 stormed in, carrying a pistol. He came into our

19 apartment. And I saw two other men, because the

20 candlelights were on in the corridor. The other stood

21 in front of the door, and the other one was by the

22 staircase. But just one of them went into our

23 apartment. He pushed me into the bathroom

24 straightaway. And he said: What are we waiting for?

25 Why are we still there? And that he would be back the

Page 13807

1 next day, and he didn't want to see us there when he

2 came back. He hit me once in the region of my

3 stomach. He kicked me with his leg.

4 Q. Was the weapon drawn and pointed at anyone in

5 particular?

6 A. Yes, it was. It was pointed at me. When he

7 came in, when I opened the door and he stormed in, he

8 pushed me into the bathroom with his pistol, and that's

9 how it was.

10 Q. Between the time you returned to your

11 apartment, after being released from detention, and

12 that incident, had you observed much expulsion activity

13 of Muslims in Vitez?

14 A. Well, let me put it this way. At that time

15 certain things were heard, and rumours as well. But

16 what happened was that people who were in the other

17 part of town began leaving their apartments first; that

18 is to say, not in the area we lived in, but in the

19 other part of town. So that it was our turn somewhere

20 towards the end. But up until then, perhaps -- well, I

21 don't know. Maybe all the people, or very few

22 families, actually, remained in Vitez.

23 Q. When you say they were leaving their

24 apartment, were they leaving voluntarily?

25 A. Absolutely not, because I know some people

Page 13808

1 who thought the same as we did. That is to say, they

2 wouldn't -- they didn't want to leave their homes at

3 any price. But everything was done under force,

4 absolutely. So a large number were directly forced to

5 leave and, of course, some of the other people probably

6 saw the first people leave, so they decided to leave as

7 well. And it was the HVO soldiers which entered all

8 the apartments later on, which is indicative.

9 Q. Do you know someone named Slaven Kraljevic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is he related to Darko Kraljevic?

12 A. It's his brother.

13 Q. Did you go to him for any assistance in this

14 interim period?

15 A. Yes, I did. At that time, the command post,

16 Darko's command post, was in a building which was at

17 the other part of town, and they spent a lot of time in

18 the Benz Cafe. And I went there and found Slaven and

19 asked him to help me, if possible. That is to say, to

20 help me remain in my apartment.

21 Q. Did you know him?

22 A. Yes. We are of the same generation, and we

23 went to primary school together. We went and did eight

24 years of primary school together.

25 Q. Did he help you?

Page 13809

1 A. Well, conditionally speaking, yes. But he

2 helped me, and I use inverted commas when I say the

3 word "help," he helped me in the following way. He

4 said, if I really wished to stay, then we'll try and

5 put his name and surname on the door of my apartment,

6 and that that should have some effect on any people

7 coming to evict us. Which is what I did, in fact.

8 Q. Did that have the desired effect of

9 preventing your eviction?

10 A. Well, as I said a moment ago, regardless of

11 that, we were thrown out of the apartment.

12 Q. Who assisted you, if anyone, in leaving

13 Vitez?

14 A. As we saw that night that there was nothing

15 to be done, we made a decision and we decided to go

16 towards Zenica, because some of our family members are

17 there, quite a large number, and so we tried to find a

18 way to do this. And I also asked another of my

19 colleagues who lived there.

20 Q. Who was that and what nationality?

21 A. His name was Miroslav Pavlovic, and he was a

22 Croat from, well, Stari Vitez, who was in that part of

23 town because several days prior to that, he too had

24 taken up residence in somebody else's apartment.

25 Q. Moving quickly, can you tell us what, if any,

Page 13810

1 possessions you took with you and how you left Vitez

2 physically, what the means were?

3 A. Well, as we knew the crossing was to take

4 place in a place called Safradini, which is the old

5 road towards Zenica, we just took what we could carry

6 with us, because we had to cross on foot some 400 or

7 500 metres. So we had two bags or plastic bags; I

8 don't know. But I asked Miroslav to transfer us from

9 Vitez down to the railway station and the crossroads,

10 the junction towards Zenica, from which point we were

11 to go on foot and cross over to the territory which was

12 held by the BiH Army at the time.

13 Q. Did Mr. Pavlovic take you to that point he

14 said he would, and did he assist you further?

15 A. He said that he would have to go down there

16 first to see whether there was any possibility of

17 leaving at the time because there was some shooting,

18 and when the alarm was sounded, no crossings were

19 possible. So he went down there and allegedly had

20 checked out the situation. He came back very quickly,

21 10 to 15 minutes later, and he said that everything was

22 okay, that he had asked and that we could start.

23 So we put our things into the car, we packed

24 them in his car, and he took us to the crossroads and

25 left us down there and came back himself. We had to

Page 13811

1 wait for a while for some soldiers to come up and tell

2 us when we could cross.

3 Q. Did soldiers come and tell you, and were they

4 HVO soldiers?

5 A. The soldiers were HVO, and from time to

6 time -- we stood there for some 40 minutes, perhaps an

7 hour; I don't quite remember. But a soldier would come

8 up to us from time to time to tell us we couldn't cross

9 yet because an alarm had sounded or something like

10 that.

11 In about an hour's time, a man turned up;

12 whether by chance or not, I don't know. But he knew my

13 father, and he said that he would give us a lift in his

14 car and take us to the Krizancevo Selo area,

15 thereabouts, from where we would have less to walk and

16 we would pass the demarcation line.

17 Q. Is Krizancevo Selo in Vitez, and was it a

18 military base for any particular group?

19 A. Well, yes, it's in Vitez, it's situated in

20 Vitez. We were brought to a place which they called a

21 command or something like that, although it didn't look

22 much like a headquarters from outside. It was a house

23 belonging to a man, and together with this -- next to

24 this house was a sort of cafe, or a shop, or something

25 like that, a facility like that. So that's where he

Page 13812

1 took us.

2 Q. And who is Vlado Krizanac?

3 A. Vlado Krizanac was a man, that is to say,

4 whose house that was, and as far as I was able to

5 notice, he was a sort of Commander over there. I don't

6 know what his function was. He belonged to the

7 Vitezovi. That's a fact that I know for sure. The

8 soldiers would come up to him from time to time to ask

9 him something, and he would give out some orders, issue

10 some orders or information, something of that kind.

11 Q. Did Vlado Krizanac have any patches that

12 suggested he was with the Vitezovi, as you believe?

13 A. Yes, he did. He had the Vitezovi patch on

14 his shoulder, and he didn't hide that fact, at least

15 from the conversation I had with him. He said that at

16 the beginning of the war, he was one of the founders of

17 HOS in Vitez and that Darko Kraljevic would come

18 frequently while we were there, that -- Darko Kraljevic

19 visited him. I didn't hear their conversation, they

20 didn't talk in the house, but that's that.

21 Q. Excuse me. Did you personally observe Darko

22 Kraljevic visiting Vlado Krizanac?

23 A. Yes, yes. He would come there. They would

24 sit around in that sort of cafe. It was some five

25 metres in front of us.

Page 13813

1 Q. Did Mr. Krizanac use any other name?

2 A. Well, everybody in his family and the other

3 people that came to him called him Sidi, as far as I

4 was able to hear. That's what he was called, Sidi.

5 Q. Where did you stay while you were in

6 Krizancevo Selo, and for how long?

7 A. In Krizancevo Selo, well, we stayed there --

8 that is to say, the day we thought we would cross over

9 to the other side, they told us that we couldn't cross

10 on that particular day. And then Sidi's wife, because

11 she knew my mother, suggested we go into their house

12 and have a cup of coffee and a rest. But we stayed

13 there, in fact, for about four days or four nights.

14 Four to five days was the time we spent in that house

15 in a sort of -- in a house-detention capacity.

16 Q. How, ultimately, were you able to go to

17 Zenica. Were you able to do so unconditionally?

18 A. For the first two days, roughly -- well, the

19 first day, that is, the day after we had arrived, the

20 same story repeated itself. We asked whether we could

21 cross over. They said we couldn't. They said the

22 alarm had sounded again or something of that kind.

23 However, later on Sidi's brother came by, and another

24 man wearing a uniform, and they told my father that he

25 ought to cross over to Zenica and to bring -- they gave

Page 13814

1 him a piece of paper which had some names and surnames

2 and addresses on it and, I think, some telephone

3 numbers as well of people whom he ought to find in

4 Zenica. And only when he had brought these people from

5 Zenica, he said, would we be able to leave. So they

6 would only let us go after my father had done this for

7 them.

8 Q. Were these people in Zenica Croats, Muslims,

9 or Serbs?

10 A. They were Croats, members of -- family

11 members of that particular man who had come to us. His

12 daughter, two children, and her husband. I think there

13 were two aunts as well of this Sidi person and his

14 brother, and the daughter and son as well.

15 Q. Just to clarify, then, your father was to go

16 alone, you were to remain behind with your mother and

17 wife, and if, in fact, he could bring back some or all

18 of these people, then possibly you would be exchanged.

19 Is that a correct understanding?

20 A. Yes, that's right. That's what they said.

21 Q. And what was the result of your father's

22 search?

23 A. Well, he found all the people that he was

24 asked to find except one man who was, at the time, at

25 the KP in Zenica, a member of the HVO, and he was a

Page 13815

1 prisoner in the house of correction, and he wasn't able

2 to get him out of the prison. And one -- the daughter

3 of this other man gave -- made a statement in writing

4 on a piece of paper that she did not wish to leave

5 Zenica, and I think she gave a brief explanation, so

6 that my father came back with two aunts and the

7 daughter of one of those aunts, something like that.

8 Q. Then you were released, and where did you go

9 after you were released?

10 A. Well, yes, on that day, it was sometime

11 around 10.00 in the morning, my father, first of all,

12 came with one of the aunts, and he told Sidi and the

13 other one, "There's another aunt and her daughter up

14 there," and that we should be released. And that's

15 what happened. They put us in a car and took us off to

16 near the demarcation line. We crossed over the line to

17 the side -- the territory that was under BiH control,

18 and we were temporarily put up in the village of

19 Poculica, which is two or three kilometres off.

20 Q. Did something happen to you physically

21 there?

22 A. Would you clarify where you mean?

23 Q. Were you injured while you were in the

24 Poculica area?

25 A. Yes, I was injured, probably by a sniper. My

Page 13816

1 right arm and chest, lungs.

2 Q. Did you ever come to learn what happened with

3 your apartment in Vitez, after you were forced out?

4 A. Yes, we learnt what had happened. A young

5 man took up residence in our apartment, whom I knew

6 from town previously, with his wife and, I think, two

7 children. And he is in the flat until this very day.

8 Q. Are you making efforts to try to get your

9 flat back? Just yes or no.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Shortly after you were released from

12 detention in Vitez, did you return to Ahmici, the

13 village where your house was?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you observe the condition of Croat houses

16 in Ahmici?

17 A. In that part, that is to say the road we take

18 in order to reach our own house, there are houses on

19 both sides, so we had to pass through that part of the

20 village. And you could clearly see. Of course, I

21 didn't know all the houses, and who all the houses

22 belonged to, but the houses belonging to our family,

23 the Muslim houses, the ones I knew about, all of them

24 had been burnt. Whereas, as to the Croatian houses

25 belonging to our Croat neighbours, I didn't see a

Page 13817

1 single burnt down house. So this was indicative.

2 And in that part of town, for example, two houses were

3 burnt, and then one wasn't burnt, then one would be

4 burnt, and three would not be burnt. So it was

5 selectively done. The burning was selectively carried

6 out.

7 Q. Your dealings, whether in person or verbally,

8 with Dario Kordic. Looking back to 1992, did you ever

9 personally come in contact with Dario Kordic?

10 A. I couldn't say that I had any personal

11 contact with him. I didn't know him, personally. I

12 knew who he was, of course, and things like that. But

13 we were very close by, on one occasion, so that I was

14 able to see him, because we were standing close by.

15 Q. Can you, very briefly, describe the

16 circumstances of that occasion?

17 A. Well, it was on the day the attack was

18 launched by the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army on

19 Busovaca. And at the time we were sitting around on

20 the terrace of a cafe, and we saw the shelling down

21 there. And we were just thinking where it would be

22 best to take shelter, because it was a terrible thing

23 to have happened for us. We'd never encountered

24 anything like that. So we rushed to premises below the

25 post office, which was the information and alert

Page 13818

1 centre. That was what it was called. And we knew

2 there was a basement there that was safe and was secure

3 against shelling.

4 We thought we would get information as to

5 what was going on. We were interested in what was

6 going on. So myself and some of my friends went down

7 there, as we knew some of the young men, some of the

8 guys that worked there. And I think that it was in

9 one -- one or two hours later that Mr. Kordic turned

10 up with -- escorted by two or three soldiers, I think,

11 and he entered this premises. So that was the occasion

12 on which I met him.

13 Q. This was, if bombings were involved, in 1992,

14 and you were in Vitez; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How was Mr. Kordic dressed, when you saw him

17 at that time?

18 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, had a

19 cap on his head. He didn't have any long-barrelled

20 weapons. I didn't see if he had a pistol or not.

21 Q. Was he alone or was he escorted?

22 A. He was escorted. He was escorted by two or

23 three soldiers who came in with him, also wearing

24 uniforms. And he went into the information centre, as

25 it was called, and I think that the guys with him

Page 13819

1 said -- that is to say, I saw a person in uniform, and

2 I think they said his name was Filip Filipovic. I

3 didn't know him, to be frank, but I did see him later

4 on on the local television. And Mr. Kordic went into

5 an office with this person and they talked there.

6 Q. On the issue of television, did you ever see

7 Mr. Kordic and any of the either members of the BiH or

8 TO in any discussions, particularly at the end of 1992

9 or 1993?

10 A. Well, Mr. Kordic was a guest on television

11 very frequently, so that we were able to see him almost

12 daily; if not live, then they would be repetitions of

13 some programmes he had taken part in. And one

14 particular programme would be, perhaps, interesting,

15 and that was one I myself took part in. There was a

16 call-in type of programme, an open programme inviting

17 questions from viewers, and I myself asked a question.

18 Q. What was the question you asked, and why did

19 you ask it? And of whom did you ask it?

20 A. I think Mr. Kordic was a guest on the

21 programme, together with Sefkija Djidic, I think it

22 was, and they were speaking on current affairs,

23 relations between the Army and BiH and the Croatian

24 Defence Council and things like that. And I didn't

25 like a statement made by Mr. Kordic, in which he said

Page 13820

1 that the Croats should solve their own national

2 question, both territorially and nationally. And this

3 was -- I didn't think he finished off what he was --

4 what he meant to say. So I phoned the telephone number

5 up and asked Mr. Kordic directly: What, in that case,

6 would happen to the Muslims? What should be done with

7 the Muslims, if he was to go ahead with what he said?

8 And this was read out on television, along with my name

9 and surname. They said who had asked the question.

10 However, I did not receive an answer, because it was --

11 they were very -- they politically side-stepped the

12 issue, if I could put it that way.

13 MS. SOMERS: No further questions. Thank

14 you.

15 MR. STEIN: With the Court's permission, we

16 would like to reverse the order of cross-examination.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness, my

21 name is Bozidar Kovacic, and together with my

22 colleague, Mr. Mikulicic, I represent

23 Mr. Mario Cerkez. I have a few questions for you, so I

24 appeal to you for patience. Also, we speak the same

25 language, and you know that we have simultaneous

Page 13821

1 interpretation, so we must speak slowly and make a

2 pause between the questions and answers.

3 Tell me, please, at the beginning you told us

4 about your career and how you joined the Territorial

5 Defence. If I understood you correctly, you were

6 mobilised to work in the Territorial Defence in June,

7 1992. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Ahmic, please be kind enough and tell me,

10 when you were mobilised, there were virtually no Croats

11 left in the Territorial Defence, were there? Could you

12 tell me that?

13 A. There were, as far as I can remember, maybe

14 two guys.

15 Q. Can it be said, then, that, in fact, at the

16 time there was a kind of ethnic grouping along ethnic

17 lines, generally speaking at least, within Vitez

18 municipality?

19 A. From the military standpoint, yes.

20 Q. So there was already a separation between the

21 two groups that was quite visible?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. You said, on the day the conflict

24 started, on the 16th of April, 1993, you said that you

25 heard the sounds of explosions in Stari Vitez. In view

Page 13822

1 of the position of your building, you couldn't really

2 see it; it was just your conclusion on the basis of

3 what you heard. Is that correct?

4 A. May I give a brief explanation?

5 Q. Yes, indeed.

6 A. The building I lived in is about 150 to 200

7 metres away from the line of attack against Stari

8 Vitez, so if shells are falling at a distance of 150 to

9 200 metres, you can hear them very well.

10 Q. Quite. Does that mean that your building is

11 in the first row of buildings behind the hotel, in the

12 opposite direction from Stari Vitez; Stari Vitez, the

13 hotel, and then your buildings?

14 A. No. It is the row in front. My building is

15 the second building next to Stari Vitez.

16 Q. I see. So after the 16th of April, your

17 building was virtually on the front line, or on the

18 line of separation forces, in Stari Vitez and in Vitez

19 itself?

20 A. Not quite. About 100 metres away was the

21 line, because the road behind the market, and the

22 garages in Stari Vitez were actually on the line of

23 separation. So my building is about 150 metres away

24 from that line.

25 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the camouflaged

Page 13823

1 soldiers, whom you called Vitezovi. You mentioned a

2 person called Robert Safradin, whom you had known from

3 before. But let me ask you this: This surname,

4 Safradin, is a frequent surname in that part of Central

5 Bosnia; is it not?

6 A. I know there is a part, an area called

7 Safradin, so in Vitez, perhaps, but for -- as for

8 Busovaca, Novi Travnik, I don't know.

9 Q. So, in any case, there are quite a number of

10 people called Safradin in Vitez?

11 A. One could put it that way.

12 Q. The other two who, with Safradin, who went to

13 your apartment and removed their mask, you didn't

14 recognise them as locals?

15 A. Let me make -- let me give you an

16 explanation, if I may. I didn't recognise them as

17 people I had seen in town. Since I have been in Vitez

18 for 25 years, I knew everyone. It's a small town, as

19 you probably know. I knew everyone living there in

20 town and in the immediate surroundings. So these men

21 were not from the town proper. They may have been from

22 Vitez municipality, but I didn't recognise them.

23 Q. Or they may have come from outside the

24 municipality?

25 A. They may have come from outside Vitez, but

Page 13824

1 they were certainly from Central Bosnia.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. You told us that on

3 the 19th of April, members of the Military Police

4 appeared in front of your apartment, and explained to

5 you that for security reasons there may be angry

6 soldiers in town, so that, for the sake of your

7 security, they were taking you to the SDK building.

8 Did you accept their story as a truthful one, or did

9 you consider this to be a mere excuse to take you away?

10 A. I think it was just an excuse.

11 Q. Very well. After spending a couple of days

12 in the SDK, and after leaving, is it right to say that

13 it was chaotic in town, that there were people who were

14 quite furious, and that some people were killed for no

15 proper reason?

16 A. There were incidents, but I wouldn't agree

17 that they -- the cause were individuals who were quite

18 out of control. At least not in all cases.

19 Q. Very well. So will you come to the point

20 when you were in the SDK, as you told us. Did anything

21 happen to any of the detainees in the SDK?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can we agree, then, that in this place of

24 detention in the SDK building, that the guards in that

25 building treated the detainees quite correctly?

Page 13825

1 A. In view of the prevailing conditions, yes.

2 Q. There was no mistreatment?

3 A. No, not in the classical sense.

4 Q. You had enough to eat and drink?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Family visits were allowed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Family members could bring you some

9 essentials?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know that several people were taken to

12 see a doctor?

13 A. Believe me, I can't remember that particular

14 detail, but probably -- you're probably right.

15 Q. As for hygiene, as far as facilities allowed,

16 could you use the toilet, water and everything?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said that occasionally this person

19 nicknamed Zabac, Kovac, would come in a vehicle clearly

20 marked as belonging to the Military Police?

21 A. Markings of the Military Police? I do not

22 remember that there were any clear signs of that.

23 Q. Were Military Police insignia clear on him?

24 A. Yes. He wore the typical white belt worn by

25 the Military Police, and he carried a pistol, and on

Page 13826

1 his sleeve he had a patch saying "Military Police."

2 Q. Very well, thank you. You told us that

3 personally -- sorry, let me scratch that.

4 You saw Cerkez on television, you said, and

5 at the time you knew that he was an Officer in the

6 HVO. Later on, you realised that Cerkez was obviously

7 some sort of a Commander or, rather, a Brigade

8 Commander. I think that is what you said.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you have occasion personally to see

11 Cerkez as an HVO Officer formally communicating with

12 other HVO members or any other event when he would act

13 in his capacity of an HVO Commander?

14 A. With the exception of his appearances on

15 television, I did not have occasion to see personally

16 him issuing any orders. But as my building is in the

17 immediate vicinity of the hotel, I saw him a couple of

18 times coming out with an escort, getting into military

19 vehicles, and so on.

20 Q. Are we talking about '92, the beginning of

21 '93?

22 A. Yes, roughly so.

23 Q. Do you know exactly the name of the Unit of

24 which Cerkez was the Commander at the time when the

25 conflict broke out on the 16th of April?

Page 13827

1 A. As far as I know, it was called the Vitez

2 Brigade.

3 Q. Quite correct, thank you. And do you know

4 whether that Brigade had its Command Headquarters in

5 the building of the Workers' University, popularly

6 known as the cinema building?

7 A. I think that they were in the hotel. How

8 they were organisationally structured, I don't know.

9 As far as my friends said, the headquarters was in the

10 hotel.

11 Q. Yes, we agree with that. Does the name

12 "Colonel Blaskic" mean anything to you?

13 A. Yes. It was a similar situation as with

14 Mr. Cerkez.

15 Q. Without going into any detail, we know from

16 your previous statement that you knew that Blaskic held

17 a superior position.

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, just a moment. What is the

19 point of this cross-examination?

20 MR. KOVACIC: The point is --

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

22 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour --

23 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. What is the point

24 of the cross-examination? We know the position, as far

25 as authority was concerned, in the HVO. This witness

Page 13828

1 can, with respect to him, add absolutely nothing on

2 this particular topic.

3 Now, we are, I suspect, wasting time by going

4 over the same points over and over again. Unless

5 there's something knew which this witness can say, and

6 you can point it out, let us move on.

7 MR. KOVACIC: There is nothing knew, Your

8 Honour. It was just I was trying to establish what,

9 really, the witness knows about the hierarchy and

10 organisation of the HVO, since he mentioned a not

11 really very defined relationship between Cerkez and

12 Darko Kraljevic. And that is my only purpose, and if I

13 may now conclude with that question and --

14 JUDGE MAY: Ask him about that relationship,

15 yes.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Ahmic, from what you told us about a

18 possible relationship between Darko Kraljevic's unit

19 and Cerkez, can you assert, on the basis of anything,

20 that Cerkez was the superior to Darko Kraljevic's unit?

21 A. My statement about this matter is based on

22 the following, and that is that the HVO was much, much

23 better organised than the BH Army, and what we were

24 able to conclude about the concept of the HDZ authority

25 and the HVO was that they were highly organised, so

Page 13829

1 there was nothing loose in their relationship. If he

2 was the Commander of the Vitez Brigade, he was the

3 Commander of the town of Vitez.

4 Q. So that is your assessment?

5 A. I am sure you will realise I cannot have any

6 document to confirm that.

7 Q. But that is just your conclusion on the basis

8 of what you saw? You never saw any document, any

9 assertion of somebody who knew about that for sure from

10 the inside?

11 A. Of course, I didn't see any document, and

12 these things were not being concealed at all at the

13 time in Vitez, who was a member of which Unit, who

14 commanded whom. This was nothing that was secret at

15 the time in Vitez.

16 Q. Very well. You gave a statement to the

17 investigators of this Tribunal earlier on. This was a

18 year ago yesterday. On page 2, you said, in the first

19 paragraph, that: "Everyone knew who was the Commander

20 of the Vitezovi. I didn't have knowledge about the

21 chain of command above Darko." Do you agree that that

22 is what you said?

23 A. It's probably what I said. It was a year

24 ago. I can't remember it. If you have a more concrete

25 question, I shall answer it gladly.

Page 13830

1 Q. Very well. All you know about it is your own

2 judgement, your own assessment, on the basis of general


4 A. Yes, one could put it that way.

5 Q. A detailed point in connection with the

6 trench-digging that was not touched upon in your direct

7 examination. You said that you were first taken to the

8 positions at Vranjska and that you stayed there until

9 about 2.00 or 3.00 that day; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then the Military Police took you again to

12 this other location at Kratine; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In your earlier statement, you said that from

15 Vranjska you were first taken to the Bungalow, and from

16 there, with another means of transport, to Kratine. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. No. The Bungalow is on the way to Kratine,

19 so we just stopped there and the members of the escort

20 entered the Bungalow. I don't know what they were

21 doing there. They told us we could get off the bus and

22 light a cigarette, if anyone wanted to.

23 Q. So this first location where you were digging

24 at Vranjska, that is a part of Rijeka, is it not?

25 A. Yes, the area where we were is a part of

Page 13831

1 Rijeka.

2 Q. And you said that there were no incidents

3 there and no mistreatment; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. So you worked at a normal rate, you had

6 breaks, you could have a smoke, you got food and

7 drinks?

8 A. I don't think we were given any food there,

9 because we didn't spend much time there, but that was

10 not the point.

11 Q. So you were there for a couple of hours; is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you able to identify the unit holding

15 that position at Vranjska, at Rijeka?

16 A. I think it was, as there were local there,

17 local guys, some of them -- I knew some of them, so

18 they were probably local people from Rijeka.

19 Q. Very well. Let us agree regarding the

20 position of Kratine. Do you know the rough borders of

21 Vitez municipality? Do you know that Kratine is on the

22 actual border towards Zenica?

23 A. Yes, as far as I know, that is so.

24 Q. Can we agree that the part of Kratine where

25 you were digging is only some half a kilometre west of

Page 13832

1 the place called Loncari?

2 A. I've never been to Loncari, so judging by

3 what the guy showed us, it could be there somewhere,

4 roughly, yes.

5 Q. Tell us, Witness Ahmic, you were taken to

6 that position at Kratine by the Military Police. Was

7 that just one position or several linked positions

8 along the edge of that plateau that you referred to?

9 As far as you could see, of course.

10 A. I don't know, in military terms, whether they

11 were separated or not. All I can testify about is the

12 area where I was. It looked like a unified hold to me.

13 Q. Were you able to notice whether there was

14 several military units, a single military unit?

15 A. To me personally, this was rather

16 interesting, because I too was a member of the TO.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. So what I found interesting was that the

19 front-line soldiers were the Jokers. The gentleman I

20 referred to earlier on, Ivica Vujica, was a member of

21 the Jokers, and they called him the Commander of the

22 Front Line. He would drive us from one trench to

23 another and tell us where to dig trenches. He was

24 there, I think, for two days. Later on, another

25 gentleman came who was again a member of the Jokers.

Page 13833

1 Q. And you deduced from that that this area was

2 under the Jokers' control?

3 A. Absolutely so -- absolutely no, I'm sorry.

4 Q. But who then controlled it?

5 A. The regular units of the HVO. And only for

6 those four days, the Jokers held those lines for some

7 reason. Those lines were under HVO control.

8 Q. And those that you referred to as regular HVO

9 units, were they from Vitez or from elsewhere?

10 A. I think they were mostly local people, but

11 there were quite a number of guys from Zenica and

12 Busovaca. I learned this from their conversation, but

13 they were all from Central Bosnia.

14 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a conversation with

15 an HVO member in the hotel who somehow let himself go

16 and said things he didn't intend to say. From that

17 conversation, was it clear that this Ivica was also a

18 member of the Military Police?

19 A. Yes. He would come occasionally wearing this

20 white belt, and they had typical jackets at the time,

21 the members of the Military Police.

22 Q. So it was clear from his story that his unit

23 was quartered in the hotel?

24 A. Yes. He told me explicitly that he was in

25 the hotel when the alarm was sounded.

Page 13834

1 Q. The woman you mentioned, whose name we are

2 not allowed to divulge, who was taken out of the house,

3 you watched all this, were there any signs that she was

4 trying to resist being expelled? Could you notice

5 anything like that?

6 A. No. Well, no characteristic signs, if I can

7 use that term. Perhaps there were some, but it wasn't

8 very noticeable, and I wasn't able to notice them.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. You then spoke about

10 how the soldiers stormed your flat and threatened you

11 with a pistol and told you to get into the bathroom.

12 You said you didn't recognise them; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?

15 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform with HVO

16 insignia.

17 Q. But he didn't have any other insignia, did

18 he?

19 A. I didn't notice any other ones, no.

20 Q. Can you tell us whether he was a local man or

21 somebody from elsewhere? Were you able to assess that?

22 A. Could you tell me what you mean by local?

23 Q. When I say local, I mean people from Vitez or

24 the villages surrounding Vitez and -- or anybody else?

25 A. Well, in that case he was a local.

Page 13835

1 Q. You think he was a local?

2 A. One hundred percent, yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us -- can you give us a

4 description of his physique?

5 A. Well, he was a strongly built man, light

6 skin, light hair, fair hair. He was rosy, had a rosy

7 complexion. Maybe at that time he was under the

8 effects of alcohol.

9 Q. What about his age?

10 A. Well, he was about 25 to 30 years old.

11 Q. From your communication with the others, you

12 couldn't hear the name or the nickname that was used?

13 A. Well, the other men didn't enter my flat.

14 Q. But they didn't shout to each other across

15 the hallway?

16 A. No. Just the man in front of the door at one

17 point told him to hurry up, and said, "Hurry up, hurry

18 up."

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. And although

20 Kraljevic's name was written up on your front door, as

21 Slaven Kraljevic told you to do, these men did not

22 respect that, did they?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You will agree with me, when I say that the

25 local people, regardless of the unit they belonged to,

Page 13836

1 knew exactly who the Vitezovi were?

2 A. Absolutely so, yes.

3 Q. And you think that some of the locals,

4 despite the fact that you had put the name of Slaven

5 Kraljevic out on your front door, that they would have

6 gone against this -- that they knew him?

7 A. Well, sir, nobody can guarantee that Slaven

8 had not actually sent them.

9 Q. So, although you thought that Slaven wanted

10 to help you, you don't believe in his help?

11 A. I have no proof of that.

12 Q. As we mentioned Darko Kraljevic and his unit,

13 could we say that they were the masters of the

14 situation in the part of town called Kolonija, which is

15 somewhere behind your particular area?

16 A. Well, that's a relative thing. To give my

17 opinion, I haven't got any documents to back them up.

18 So all I can say -- all I can do is repeat my own

19 opinion, and that is that the HVO organisation itself

20 was a very good one, and I think that the people

21 sitting in the hotel were the masters of the

22 situation.

23 Q. But we do agree that the Vitezovi were a

24 recognisable force in town?

25 A. Well, you could put it that way. If it was a

Page 13837

1 force, well, I suppose they were a force then, yes.

2 Q. Were people afraid of them, SDK, the

3 trench-digging? What did people say about them? Were

4 they afraid? Was there a general sense of fear of

5 them?

6 A. Well, I didn't notice anything that would be

7 terrible. They did not stand out compared to the

8 Jokers or some of the others. I didn't notice anything

9 special about them in that way.

10 Q. I have two more things to ask you. The first

11 is the following: The apartment from which you were

12 evicted by force, and you say that a soldier is still

13 living there, and that you have undertaken legal steps

14 to get your apartment back. Your father had the right

15 to live there as a tenant's right, a legal tenant's

16 right for the utilisation of that flat with his family?

17 A. Yes, since 1968.

18 Q. So it wasn't owned property, actually

19 property owned by your father, was it?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. And in keeping with the

22 provisions, the steps you have taken, in the BiH

23 Federation you have the right to get back your tenant's

24 right to live there; is that correct?

25 A. As far as I know, yes.

Page 13838

1 Q. Tell me one more thing, please, witness, to

2 avoid any misunderstandings. You were taken by the

3 Military Police from your apartment to the SDK

4 building?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. From the SDK building to Zaselje, you were

7 also taken by the Military Police. To Vranjska. I'm

8 sorry.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. From Vranjska to Kratine, once again you were

11 conveyed by the Military Police?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the Military Police took you back to the

14 SDK building, didn't they?

15 A. Well, to tell you the truth, in view of the

16 fact that it was very late at night, it was 12 or

17 1 a.m., it was complete darkness, I didn't see them

18 taking us back. That is to say, I didn't see their

19 insignia. I saw nothing on the vehicle.

20 Q. And what about the SDK, they -- it was

21 members of the Military Police that stood guard over

22 that building?

23 A. Yes

24 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, it may be that you

Page 13839

1 could help with a matter, while we are dealing with

2 it. I wonder if we could have out the Exhibit D52/2.

3 It's a map.

4 MR. KOVACIC: It's obviously with the

5 Registrar. I don't have my copy here.

6 JUDGE MAY: You don't.

7 MR. KOVACIC: But I have a similar map, Your

8 Honour. If you could give me 20 seconds, I have it

9 here. I have quite the same. Shall we use a brand new

10 one without those markings or --

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've got it. Tell the

12 usher there is no need to look for it any more. If you

13 could put it on the ELMO, please.

14 What I would be grateful for assistance with,

15 and it may be that the witness can deal with this, is

16 Krizancevo Selo, it was referred to in his evidence,

17 it's been referred to before. There was an action

18 there, we heard at one stage of the proceedings. I

19 can't see anything of that sort marked, although there

20 is a Sivrino Selo. What I want to know is where

21 Krizancevo Selo is? Is it the same as Sivrino Selo, or

22 is it somewhere else?

23 MR. KOVACIC: If I may assist, Your Honour,

24 and we certainly could be assisted by this witness, I

25 will tell you that it is not surprising that you can't

Page 13840

1 find it, since it is not marked on the map.


3 MR. KOVACIC: Krizancevo Selo is a part of a

4 village which is called in a broader sense Sivrino

5 Selo, but part Dubravica. And I will ask the witness

6 to show us on the map, and I can do that as well --

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness do it, first of

8 all.

9 MR. KOVACIC: Usher, will you please move so

10 to the centre, that Vitez is in the middle of the

11 picture. Open the map. Open the map. All right. And

12 now we need closer. Okay. That will do. Fine.

13 Enough.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Could you, Mr. Ahmic,

15 indicate to the Trial Chamber -- first find it on the

16 map and then point it out to the Trial Chamber. Point

17 out Krizancevo Selo. Which part of the village is

18 referred to as Krizancevo Selo? And if I can help you,

19 find Dubravica. Can you find Dubravica? It's lower to

20 the left of Sivrino Selo.

21 A. I have it, yes.

22 Q. It is by the "B." The area called Krizancevo

23 Selo is by the "B" of Dubravica. Do we agree?

24 A. Yes, it's around about here. That's where it

25 is. I think some houses -- no, that isn't a house.

Page 13841

1 That's a peak, but around here [indicates]. That is

2 where Krizancevo Selo is located.

3 Q. You are thinking of the peak?

4 A. No, not the peak. A little under, below the

5 peak, around this area here, these houses that are

6 drawn in here. Are they houses? I think they are. So

7 not down here by the peak, but down here.

8 Q. Now, if you look at the road. Go down by the

9 road. Where is the school?

10 A. The school is somewhere around here.

11 Q. So it means that it is in the lower part?

12 A. I think it's around here.

13 Q. That's where it is. So below the junction?

14 A. Yes, as far as I am able to point out with

15 this pointer.

16 Q. As we are already there, shall we show the

17 Trial Chamber, because this is also mentioned, where

18 the railway station is?

19 A. The railway station is down here. It's the

20 old railway station, but we keep referring to it as the

21 railway station.

22 Q. And what about Novaci?

23 A. Novaci.

24 Q. Yes, because that name isn't on the map.

25 A. Novaci should be somewhere in this region

Page 13842

1 here.

2 Q. It's not relevant for this witness, but maybe

3 we can also use opportunity -- the villages right from

4 Sivrino Selo, which you can find on the map, Pirici and

5 Vidovici. Later, perhaps, they will be relevant. They

6 are mixed up. The names are switched.

7 JUDGE MAY: You say that the map is in

8 error?


10 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure if that is going to

11 be accepted.

12 MR. KOVACIC: That's well-known. I mean,

13 even NATO knew that. We could check with the witness,

14 if he knows, of course.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we can ask the witness.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Ahmic, take a look at the villages of

18 Pirici and Vidovici, to the right of Sivrino Selo.

19 A. Yes, I see them.

20 Q. Do you agree that the names of the villages

21 correspond, or have they been reversed? Do you know

22 that area? You know it better than I do, I suppose.

23 If you can tell us, do so. If not, we'll ask someone

24 else.

25 A. Well, my opinion is that you are, perhaps,

Page 13843

1 right.

2 Q. So that you allow that a reversal has taken

3 place?

4 A. There is that possibility, yes, but I'm not

5 sure.

6 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you very much.

7 Anything else, Your Honour?

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Kovacic. We'll

9 adjourn now till just after half past.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Stein.

13 MR. STEIN: Thank you, sir. We have no

14 questions. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

16 MS. SOMERS: One or two questions.

17 Re-examined by Ms. Somers:

18 Q. Mr. Ahmic, you were asked about, at the time

19 of your mobilisation into the TO -- and I believe the

20 time frame was roughly June of '92 -- if there were any

21 Croats in the TO. Do you know whether or not, inasmuch

22 as the HVO had been officially formed in April of '92,

23 there were any Muslims from your area in the HVO?

24 A. Yes, I also know that, but not a large number

25 of people.

Page 13844

1 Q. So there, in fact, was a second existing

2 military force principally opened to the Croats at that

3 time; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ahmic, that concludes your

7 evidence. You are released. Thank you for coming to

8 the International Tribunal to give your evidence.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you,

10 too.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, let me deal with one or

13 two administrative matters.

14 Tomorrow we will sit, unless there's any

15 submissions to the contrary, at 9, to finish at

16 12.30.

17 As for the tapes which we were discussing

18 yesterday, inquiries have shown that the translators

19 can do the work of comparison, if they had the work

20 now, by the 14th of February. But it does occur to me

21 that if it's possible for the parties to agree on the

22 matter, it wouldn't be necessary to trouble the

23 translators with it. What is the feeling about that?

24 MR. NICE: The issue is not, of course,

25 whether the translation of the other tape would match

Page 13845

1 the translation of the tape first produced but whether

2 the sounds on the tapes are similar or identical. That

3 is probably something that can be agreed by the Defence

4 when they've listened to it, if that's the position.

5 In each case, we would obviously like to listen to the

6 tapes ourselves, preferably with a language speaker, I

7 imagine, and that may resolve it.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, can that be done in

9 the next few days? I say that because if we are going

10 to have to ask Translation to listen to it, then the

11 sooner we do it, the better. But it does occur to me

12 that it should be possible of resolution without

13 troubling them.

14 MR. STEIN: The tape was to be given to us

15 this morning. We don't have it as of yet. I would

16 expect it would take -- over the weekend, we could get

17 it done, report to the other side Monday. If there's

18 an agreement Monday or Tuesday, we need not trouble the

19 Translation Unit. If there's no agreement, we'll let

20 them know.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, I think that would be

22 sensible. Where is the tape?

23 MR. STEIN: My understanding, if I may be

24 helpful, is the registrar was working with the

25 technical booth. We were to have it this morning.

Page 13846

1 It's somewhere there.

2 JUDGE MAY: Could that be handed over?

3 Perhaps I could ask the Registry if it could be handed

4 over during the luncheon adjournment.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The registrar

6 will make sure that the problem will be resolved in

7 agreement with the parties.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have the witness.

9 MR. NICE: Yes. Before that, my forecast is

10 this witness will probably be concluded this

11 afternoon.

12 The map was one of the topics we were

13 planning to deal with tomorrow. Mr. Lopez-Terres, who

14 has been dealing with that, discussed the matter with

15 Mr. Kovacic and Mr. Stein, I think, and there is an

16 agreement between them that it is likely to be or quite

17 likely to be useful for a little more time to pass so

18 that they can reach an agreement, and I don't think

19 there's any intention on anybody's part to try and call

20 any of the evidence of the map tomorrow; i.e., putting

21 it off until later on. That leaves tomorrow free

22 because of our loss of Stutt earlier in the week and

23 our inability to replace him by a substantive witness.

24 I'm very anxious, of course, not to lose any

25 time that can be properly used for purposes of our

Page 13847

1 case, and I've raised with the Defence whether some of

2 the village binders could be considered tomorrow. I

3 note theoretically they are down for determination on

4 the 14th of February, but if we can get through some of

5 them tomorrow, so much the better. I think the

6 probabilities are that there are going to be a few of

7 those binders that will be capable of being discussed

8 tomorrow morning.

9 JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with that when we know

10 how we get on with the witness, provided we know what

11 binders you want to discuss.

12 MR. STEIN: Very good, sir.

13 MR. NICE: Jeremy Fleming, please.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the

16 declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

18 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

19 truth.


21 Examined by Mr. Nice:

22 Q. Your full name, please?

23 A. Jeremy Fleming.

24 Q. And, Mr. Fleming, were you in the army for 10

25 years in the infantry, then a manager for British

Page 13848

1 Petroleum for some years, finally owning your own

2 business, working in Afghanistan on de-mining, and

3 then, or at least maybe in the meantime, but in 1992

4 being an ECMM monitor, first in Croatia, and then in

5 Central Bosnia?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. It's right, I think, that you made diary

8 notes during your time as an ECMM monitor; correct?

9 A. That is correct. Yes.

10 Q. And they were provided to this institution

11 some considerable time ago, probably for another team.

12 They haven't been looked at, as it happens, by this

13 team, but have you had an opportunity to review them

14 this morning to refresh your memory with what they

15 contain?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. Does it happen that the same document has

18 also been used by you in relation to entirely different

19 type of work, I think election monitoring work?

20 A. That is correct. I was an election

21 supervisor for the OSCE, and the document was used

22 jointly, as a daily note reminder.

23 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, if the witness

24 has used a diary to refresh his recollection, then he's

25 using it somewhat as an aid to his testimony today. I

Page 13849

1 wonder if the Defence could request that a copy be made

2 available for our review, less, of course, entries of a

3 personal nature.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't think that's

5 the usual --

6 JUDGE MAY: What's the position about the

7 diary? Have you seen it?

8 MR. NICE: I haven't seen it. Nobody in our

9 team has. But -- and he's only looked at it this

10 morning to refresh his memory. I don't think very much

11 has been added to what was in the summary, save some

12 confirmation of earlier recollection and some other

13 details.

14 I know that the witness has no concerns

15 himself about entries being seen, subject, of course,

16 to entries about the other matter, obviously, not being

17 made available and blocked to anyone else.

18 Can I suggest that we simply see how his

19 evidence goes, and if and where he refers to particular

20 pages, they can, of course, be made available to the

21 Defence, because there is no objection by the witness

22 to that happening.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MR. NICE: I haven't seen it, but I have tied

25 it together with an elastic band, and perhaps he can

Page 13850

1 have it before him as an aide-memoire, if he seeks to

2 refer to it.

3 Q. Did you first work in Split gathering

4 information about military brigade headquarters, front

5 lines of the HV, their discipline, morale, and so on?

6 A. I arrived in Zagreb as a monitor in February,

7 1992, and it was only in May, 1992, that I was sent to

8 Split to carry out those activities.

9 Q. The activities I've described were what you

10 were engaged upon?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. In the summer of 1992, what was your

13 judgement of the professionalism or otherwise of

14 Croatian troops, their discipline and, so far as you

15 could judge, their arms?

16 A. During the summer of 1992, when I was

17 stationed in Split, a marked change in my perception of

18 the professionalism of the Croatian forces took place.

19 It was during at a time when the Vance-Owen Plan was

20 being implemented, and in the town of Sinj there was a

21 storage point for weapons which had been handed in by

22 the forces, by the Croatian forces in a storage depot,

23 and it was my job to track those weapons.

24 Travelling to and fro from Split to Sinj, we

25 found marching troops from the depot at Sinj, where

Page 13851

1 they were being -- where the recruits were being

2 trained as soldiers. And during that summer, it became

3 noticeable that those bodies of troops were marching

4 smartly, from their previous slightly untidy gait, and

5 their uniforms were pressed and clean, their weapons,

6 their personal rifles, AK-47s, seemed relatively new.

7 And it was altogether matched by the off-duty manner in

8 the town of Split as well, where they seemed to be

9 walking around in uniform, but with much greater

10 purpose.

11 Q. All right. I think that's all I want on

12 that.

13 Mr. Fleming, did you, at some stage, write a

14 memorandum to the head of mission of the ECMM in

15 Zagreb, with a recommendation about the establishment

16 of an ECMM presence in Central Bosnia? Just yes or

17 no.

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Can you explain the sources of information

20 that led to you making that decision?

21 A. Well, during my daily round of the activities

22 that had been described already, there was a unit in

23 between Sinj and Sibenik, which was in my area of

24 responsibility. I noticed, and it had also been

25 confirmed, that that unit was undergoing a change. And

Page 13852

1 I've forgotten the professional term, but they were

2 being -- that area was being soldiered by a far less

3 professional and, I dare say, part-time soldiery,

4 because the full-time soldiery, I had gathered, had

5 upped and progressed east from Split and the Sibenik

6 area.

7 Q. We have to identify --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

9 Mr. Nice. Microphone. Microphone.

10 JUDGE MAY: Microphone.

11 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry.

12 Q. We have to identify the sources and the

13 remoteness of your information. Did you have two

14 sources; one connected to a translator?

15 A. Yes, I did. There was a translator in the

16 hotel, Hotel Split where we were staying, and he was my

17 translator for quite some time, a matter of months.

18 His father commanded this Unit in or near Sinj and

19 Sibenik, and that was the connection I had with that

20 unit.

21 Q. Where did you learn of the movement of that

22 Unit, then? From the son?

23 A. No, it wasn't. It was a perception, and

24 later it was -- I had a meeting with a colleague in

25 Zenica, who had confirmed that he had seen the father

Page 13853

1 of the translator in Bosnia.

2 Q. You say it was a perception of movement. Did

3 the son have nothing to do with this, in terms of

4 telling you anything?

5 A. None whatever.

6 MR. NICE: The two photographs that are at

7 the top of the witness pile, it may be the witness can

8 have a pile himself, as should the Defence, of course,

9 and the Judges. No, give them out in -- yes. Can the

10 witness have a whole pack? It's much easier. Please.

11 The photographs can just be placed on the ELMO. The

12 first photograph -- well, put in the one with two

13 people.

14 Q. That, I think, shows the father concerned.

15 Is that correct?

16 A. The father is on the right.

17 Q. The father is on the right?

18 A. Yes, as you look at it.

19 Q. The second photograph with the three people

20 shows the son -- this is just for identification

21 purposes -- the son in the middle; correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Are you, at this stage, able to remember

24 their names?

25 A. I fear not, I fear not.

Page 13854

1 Q. But, in any event, these were Croatian

2 troops?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you then come to be sent to

5 establish a co-ordination centre for the ECMM in Zenica?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. Learning, at your briefing, what of the roles

8 of Blaskic and Kordic?

9 A. Part of our remit was to liaise with, among

10 other people, the military representatives of the area

11 where we were in. And clearly Colonel Blaskic was a

12 key figure in the military setup in the area, and Dario

13 Kordic I was less convinced about as a military figure.

14 Q. What was his described position at your

15 initial briefing, if you can recall?

16 A. Well, it didn't actually -- his name didn't

17 come up in an initial briefing. He was described as a

18 senior figure in the HDZ. But just quite what the HDZ

19 was supposed to do in that militaristic situation, it

20 was never revealed.

21 Q. Did you at any time attend meetings where

22 both Blaskic and Kordic were present?

23 A. I'm trying to remember. I don't think so. I

24 don't think they were ever present together, although

25 they were invited.

Page 13855

1 Q. From the information coming your way

2 generally, did Kordic's role ever become completely

3 clear or did it remain, to some degree, uncertain? You

4 describe the position, please.

5 A. Well, it was certainly unclear. Referring to

6 the pack of the entitled "HVO Key Military

7 Personalities" --

8 Q. Which is Exhibit Z283.3.

9 A. If you look on the left, there's the

10 organigramme --

11 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, may we know the

12 source of this document? We've not seen this before,

13 it's unfamiliar to me, and I think a proper foundation

14 is to be laid for its admission into evidence, if it is

15 going to be offered.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. This is the chart referred to in paragraph 6

18 of the summary. Can you tell us who provided you with

19 this chart and on whose intelligence, as you

20 understood, it was based?

21 A. As you can see, it's dated the 17th of

22 November, 1992. It was provided to me by Bosnian High

23 Commander, Kiseljak, which was the UNPROFOR

24 Headquarters in that area. They had a unit which

25 included the European Community Liaison Officer, ECLO,

Page 13856

1 and these UNPROFOR Officers provided this chart. As I

2 say, they believed it to be the situation as at the

3 17th of November, '92.

4 Q. You were in the middle of answering my

5 question about whether Kordic's role became clear or

6 remained to a degree uncertain.

7 A. The relationship between Kordic and Blaskic

8 was never clear. I asked numerous people, including

9 the Chief Of Staff at Kiseljak, and it was never

10 clear. It was always shrouded in a bit of mystery

11 about what the relationship was, although referring to

12 the chart again, it would appear that Kordic was

13 Blaskic's superior. But I'm -- I wouldn't, as they

14 say, put money on it.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Paragraph 7 of the

16 summary, then, obviously speaking in your own words,

17 Mr. Fleming, wherever you can. Don't follow the

18 summary unless, for any reason, you wish to.

19 In December 1992, was your Zenica base

20 relocated to Busovaca?

21 A. Mine was, personally, but the co-ordinating

22 centre that had been established in Zenica remained,

23 but with different personnel.

24 This new Unit called the Joint Commission was

25 set up at the recommendation of the Chief Of Staff in

Page 13857

1 BHC Kiseljak, the then Brigadier Cordy-Simpson. The

2 idea was to solve problems of either ethnic group, BiH

3 or HVO, by forming a team consisting of myself as the

4 ECMM representative, a Staff Officer appointed by

5 3rd Corps Commander, and on the -- for the BHA side, and

6 a similar Staff Officer from the HVO appointed by

7 Blaskic. The three of us were given protection by a

8 track vehicle and associated communications.

9 Those were the Units that were formed. There

10 were about half a dozen of them at inception, but that

11 increased, doubled almost, as time went on.

12 Q. When you say you were the ECMM

13 representative, I think you were actually the Chairman

14 of the Commission, is that the, or the first --

15 A. Oh, yes, I apologise. I was the ECMM

16 representative in that particular team, but at the same

17 time, yes, I was the Chairman of the Joint Commission,

18 which was chairing all the activities of all these

19 teams which were going around the area.

20 Q. Was there an incident at some stage, the end

21 of '92, beginning of '93, where there was an explosion

22 in front of your hotel?

23 A. Yes. Referring to the diary, it was sometime

24 a day or two before the 10th of February, because the

25 diary denotes that I, quote, "Wanted the remains of

Page 13858

1 that shell casing back."

2 From my military knowledge, it was from a

3 piece of weaponry known as an MRLS, a multiple-launch

4 rocket system, and it landed quite close to the hotel.

5 I picked up the telephone and asked to see Kordic, and

6 that was never responded to positively. But I did get

7 the remains back, and it's now in my house.

8 Q. The gap, incidentally, Mr. Fleming, in our

9 discussion reflects the need to wait for the

10 interpreters to catch up.

11 A. Thank you.

12 Q. This explosion and the shell that you found,

13 were you able to say anything about where it had come

14 from?

15 A. No. The Dutch Battalion, with whom we were

16 co-located in the hotel, took it away for some forensic

17 analysis. They never revealed to me any further

18 details or any details of that analysis. The only bit

19 of intelligence I ever got was that there was a piece

20 of weaponry called a Nora, N-o-r-a, and I have that on

21 a map, but that is the only indication of where this

22 came from.

23 Q. A Nora being weaponry of which side?

24 A. I hesitate to say both.

25 Q. Thank you. And the location that you're

Page 13859

1 referring to, you can describe it without necessarily

2 turning to a map, because we may be aware of it

3 already.

4 A. In my estimation, it was some 15 kilometres

5 north-west of Busovaca.

6 Q. Located in what, if any, feature?

7 A. On a mountain top.

8 Q. Was there a meeting on the 30th of January of

9 1993 of your commission?

10 A. Yes. That was in Vitez.

11 Q. The upshot of that meeting was what?

12 A. It was a large meeting attended by the

13 Commander of the Cheshire Regiment, Colonel Bob

14 Stewart, myself as Chairman of the Joint Commission,

15 General Morillon who was commanding UNPROFOR from

16 Sarajevo, and the Deputies of the Commanders of the HVO

17 and 3rd Corps. Also in place were representatives from

18 the ICRC and UNHCR.

19 It was a big meeting. It was there to

20 express dissatisfaction with the way that the ceasefire

21 was holding. It was expressed in such a way that no

22 one side was blamed exclusively for this situation,

23 that both sides are as bad as each other, and I said so

24 in so many words. And from it there was -- it was

25 designed to produce a further ceasefire agreement.

Page 13860

1 Q. Can we look, please, at the collective

2 Exhibits 422 --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

4 Mr. Nice.

5 MR. NICE: Put the organigramme to one side.

6 The Chamber may be interested in this small exercise,

7 looking first at the English version, which is 422A,

8 and then looking at the two documents that precede it

9 for some clarification.

10 In translation, Mr. Fleming, was this

11 agreement, as we can see -- have you got 422A there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Paragraph 2, an urgent ceasefire to take

14 effect. Paragraph 3, units on both sides to remain in

15 their present positions, with withdrawal of units.

16 Paragraph 4, opening of roads, particularised in

17 paragraph 5. Exchange of prisoners, paragraph 6. And

18 other provisions, including at 8, telephone

19 communications, and so on.

20 Now, if we look at the first sheet of that

21 document, on the right-hand side, we see that it is

22 said to have been addressed to Colonel Tihomir Blaskic

23 and Colonel Dario Kordic. Now, if you come back in the

24 little collection of documents to the immediate

25 preceding document, which is in B/C/S, and is a form of

Page 13861

1 original, and has the word "UNPROFOR" on the top in

2 hand, we can see on this document that there is "puk,"

3 which is, I think, the short form for Colonel Blaskic,

4 and "puk" for Kordic. But at the next sheet we can see

5 the signatories are simply typed in. So, in some way,

6 this is a typed copy, although it is stamped with the

7 Herceg-Bosna stamp. The Bosna stamp.

8 If you come back to the first document, we

9 see, on the second sheet of it, that we now have the

10 actual signatures: Merdan, Nakic, Stewart, Fleming, de

11 la Mota and, and Wittwer, stamped with the United

12 Nations stamp. And on the first sheet of that document

13 we see simply at the top, in handwriting, Kordiccu and

14 Blasskiccu, with no reference to the rank of Colonel.

15 First of all, is the document, at least as you can

16 recall matters, that reflects the agreement that was

17 made?

18 A. You are referring to document number --

19 typewritten 358?

20 Q. 422.

21 A. Wrong, but the two versions.

22 Q. Yes, that's right. There were two versions

23 of it.

24 A. As far as I remember, what was signed was the

25 one 422, and I would trust and hope that the 422A is an

Page 13862

1 accurate translation of it.

2 Q. Your Honour, there it is. The Court will

3 observe that the Herceg-Bosna version is slightly

4 differently headed from the United Nations one, and it

5 is only the United Nations one that has the signature.

6 Paragraph 10. In your function -- yes. In

7 your job as Chairman of the Commission, did you see

8 Dario Kordic from time to time?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. When you saw him, how was he dressed, and was

11 he accompanied, and where was it?

12 A. It was always in Busovaca, as far as I can

13 remember. It was in a cellar of a brick building in

14 the centre of Busovaca. We were always accompanied by

15 members of his team and, of course, members of mine,

16 mainly translators. Kordic was usually dressed in a

17 military fashion. I put it no higher than that. That

18 is to say, a camouflage T-shirt, no badges of rank, no

19 unit insignia, no crest or flash mentioning HDZ or

20 anything of that nature. Bare headed. And I got the

21 feeling that I was facing somebody who shunned the

22 limelight. The phrase I used at the time, and still

23 use now, is bunker mentality.

24 And although he appeared, I felt, to get on

25 personally, it was mainly because I was obviously a

Page 13863

1 soldier, although not dressed as one and, dare I say,

2 it had a soldier's outlook.

3 Q. Two of the meetings that you had with him, on

4 the 2nd or 3rd of February. If you wish to refer to

5 the summary, you may do so, but at least let us know

6 that you are doing so. But again, speak from memory,

7 if you can, and if you recall whether there are any

8 notes in your diary that you looked at from this

9 morning, and you want to refresh your memory, then of

10 course you can do that.

11 A. I am looking through the diary now, and also

12 refreshing my memory on the summary. From what I

13 remember, this is -- from what I remember, this is a

14 meeting to follow through the meeting we had had on the

15 30th of January, where I was given specific tasks by

16 Colonel Stewart and General Morillon about brokering a

17 ceasefire and maintaining that ceasefire in the area,

18 together with the provisions also mentioned in the

19 document 422A.

20 Q. Yes. Now, that's one of the meetings. Can

21 you remember anything -- we haven't set it out in the

22 summary. Can you remember anything of Kordic's

23 reaction of that meeting or not? Whether reading your

24 diary helps you at all, I don't know.

25 A. I'm looking at the diary now, and there is

Page 13864

1 little or no specific elaboration of that meeting which

2 would be useful.

3 Q. Very well. The 3rd of February, did that

4 relate to a mined landslide on the road from Vitez to

5 Zenica?

6 A. I'm referring again to the summary. Yes,

7 that is correct. The landslide had been caused, one

8 assumed, by some explosion, and then booby-trapped with

9 further mines to make the clearance a slow and painful

10 business.

11 Q. Kordic's reaction or approach on this

12 occasion?

13 A. I can't remember. I think he -- I can

14 remember what is down in paragraph 12 of the summary.

15 Q. Well, you better tell us that, then, so that

16 it's on the record.

17 A. Apparently, he was being hindered from

18 clearing it by the presence of "outside soldiers."

19 Quite who these outside soldiers were is not known.

20 Various loose references were made about Mujahedins,

21 various loose references were made about mercenaries.

22 So one was given to understand that they would have

23 been outside the official order of battle who remained

24 in the area.

25 Q. The next exhibit in the little stack is 445.

Page 13865

1 If you would be good enough to take that. Can you tell

2 us about this? It's a daily report for the 6th of

3 February. Do you remember whether it was your creation

4 or a document to which you contributed?

5 A. It would have been my creation and under my

6 authorship.

7 Q. It says, "Regards from Joint Commission

8 Bosnia."

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. On the second page of this document, you set

11 out at paragraph 6 the CJCB activities. That's your

12 activities. You chaired a meeting that's been referred

13 to above, and we'll come to that, perhaps, in a

14 minute. You also deal with the release of prisoners

15 from Katici. Is that something overnight and, after

16 the preparation of the summary, that you've remembered

17 a little bit more about?

18 A. I'm looking at the summary again.

19 Q. I don't think it's in the summary. Is this

20 something that you've recalled further detail about

21 overnight, the release of prisoners from Katici?

22 A. I'm looking at the diary now. Yes, referring

23 to the diary, I have written that on the 3rd of

24 February. It's the first time that Katici gets a

25 mention in the diary. And it concerned the movement of

Page 13866

1 civilians from Merdani to Katici.

2 Q. What can you actually recall of that

3 incident, if it's the same incident as the one that you

4 may have recalled something about overnight? What can

5 you remember about it? Who were the prisoners, men or

6 women; what happened to them, and so on?

7 A. The village of Katici -- the village of

8 Merdani is some three or four kilometres to the east of

9 Katici. My recollection is that some soldiers took men

10 and women from Merdani to Katici, and the whereabouts

11 of the men were never disclosed. And, as far as I was

12 concerned, I never saw them again. I never saw them at

13 all. The females and the children were housed in

14 accommodation in Katici, and it was my understanding

15 that they had to be moved to a place of their

16 satisfaction, under the auspices of the ICRC.

17 Q. Were you able to trace responsibility for the

18 separation of men from women, and for the movement of

19 the men? And if the answer is yes, before you tell us

20 to whom you traced it, you must tell us how. If the

21 answer is no, we don't need to go further.

22 A. My Staff Officer on the BHA side, who was a

23 member of the team, talked to a representative of the

24 BHA on the ground who was guarding, I suppose, the

25 civilians in the house. And it was under his auspices

Page 13867

1 that the negotiations started to release the women and

2 children to a place of their choosing.

3 Q. The question was whether you learnt, and if

4 so, yes or no. And if you learnt, from whom or how, of

5 who was responsible for the action in the first place?

6 I don't know if you can take that any further. If not,

7 we'll move on.

8 A. I'm referring to my diary, and it's -- I

9 don't want to guess, so I better say I don't know.

10 Q. Very well. Let's return to the -- I'll slow

11 down.

12 Let's return to paragraph 6 of the document

13 we were looking at. Paragraph 6(c) deals with your

14 meeting with Kordic in relation to clearance of the

15 roadblock and release of prisoners. You see how he's

16 described there or titled there. Can you just explain

17 that, please?

18 A. No, I can't. I mean I -- he was known,

19 generally speaking, as Colonel Kordic, and I suppose

20 that nomenclature stuck.

21 Q. What was his position in this meeting?

22 A. I believe I am right in saying that he was

23 positive in the business of clearing the roadblock,

24 generally speaking.

25 Q. Yes. Was there non-attendance by the BiH, or

Page 13868

1 can't you remember?

2 A. No, I can't remember, I'm afraid.

3 Q. Very well. Do you recall one other meeting,

4 in particular involving Victor Andreev and a man called

5 Bozic?

6 A. Yes, I do remember that.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I do note the time.

8 We're not going to quite finish the witness by half

9 past 12.

10 JUDGE MAY: Would that be a convenient

11 moment?

12 MR. NICE: Rather than launch into it and

13 hurry the witness, yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now until

15 half past 2.

16 Mr. Fleming, we've got to take a slightly

17 longer lunch break than usual. Could you be back,

18 please, at half past 2.

19 I must remind you, as I remind all witnesses,

20 not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's

21 over, and that does include members of the

22 Prosecution.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now until half past

25 2.00.

Page 13869

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

























Page 13870

1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.


4 Q. You were dealing or about to deal with a

5 meeting of Kordic, Andreev and Bozic. Can you just

6 tell us about that, please.

7 A. This one you are referring to on the 7th of

8 February?

9 Q. Well, the date may be known to you better in

10 the summary. It simply dealt with paragraph 14. If

11 you think it is, or if you can tell us it's the 7th of

12 February, tell us so.

13 A. No, indeed it was before the 7th of

14 February. And the meeting was attended, in fact, by

15 Victor Andreev, who was looking after the civil police

16 affairs in Kiseljak on behalf of UNPROFOR. And also

17 Jean Jacques Bousseau, who was the regional -- he was

18 the Regional Commander of ECMM in Split, and Zenica and

19 Busovaca were in the Split area, as far as ECMM was

20 concerned. And the Chief Of Police was there. If I

21 can refer to my diary again. The meeting, essentially,

22 was to push forward the activities of Interpol, as

23 opposed to allowing the situation to become a purely

24 military situation.

25 I think it might be worth saying, at this

Page 13871

1 stage, that in order to understand the situation there,

2 one needs to grasp three things. One, it was a

3 situation which, more than any I've experienced, was

4 dictated from the ground, the activities on the ground,

5 especially in the early days.

6 The second thing was that the nature of the

7 structure of the armed forces in the area was such that

8 they were, by and large, defending their own domestic

9 territory. Individual soldiers armed and defending

10 their own domestic territory. And we, or I, was

11 certainly beginning to feel, at that late-ish stage,

12 that bits of paper signed by superiors were not given

13 the respect and the seriousness which they deserved,

14 perhaps. And it was therefore the situation, and quite

15 a lot of situations, that houses were being damaged,

16 families abused, and one expected an armed soldier to

17 watch it without doing anything about it.

18 And, Your Honours, you might think,

19 therefore, that that was an explosive situation which

20 couldn't be resolved, unless there was a change in

21 policy, to get soldiers off their own home ground.

22 Q. I'll come back to the meeting, you having

23 explained your understanding of the position on the

24 ground. How did you express this view at the meeting?

25 A. Much in the same way as I've just said. But

Page 13872

1 it also allowed me to believe that the situation was

2 not a military one so much as a policing one, and it

3 needed police presence on the ground, to use police

4 methods to diminish criminal activities. There weren't

5 so much military activities, there were criminal

6 activities; burning, random shootings, and so on.

7 Q. What did Kordic say about this, once you

8 expressed your view?

9 A. I think he was largely supportive. As a --

10 the person I had to convince was Victor Andreev, the

11 person who was in charge of civil affairs, and also my

12 regional co-ordinator, Jean Jacques Bousseau, and to use

13 Interpol to retrain policemen for activities --

14 policing activities on the ground.

15 The excuse I was always given was all the

16 able men had already been drafted into the armies, and

17 there weren't sufficient left over to improve the

18 training of the Police Force.

19 And the other thing, finally, was that it

20 seemed to me, and I believe Kordic supported this,

21 largely, the Police Force, the Ethnic Police Force in a

22 police station should reflect the proportions of the

23 population that it was designed and organised to

24 protect. And that was another aspect that was thrown

25 into the meeting. And it, by and large, got a good

Page 13873

1 reception.

2 Q. Did Kordic -- I'm so sorry. I must wait for

3 the interpreters.

4 Did Kordic say he would speak to someone

5 about this, and if so, who?

6 A. Yes, he did. The conversation, as I remember

7 it, went on to the idea I had to neutralise the vehicle

8 checkpoints or VCPs.

9 As Your Honours are aware, an HVO

10 checkpoint begets a BHA checkpoint something like 300

11 metres down the road, and they seem to sort of spring

12 up in pairs. I put forward the proposal that we could

13 neutralise these checkpoints by very gradually, over a

14 period of months maybe, but moving them closer

15 together, stripping them of their military uniforms and

16 getting them to put on police uniforms, and then when

17 the situation deemed right, swap one HVO man for one

18 BHA man so that they get -- would start to talk to each

19 other. You know for sure that these guys have been to

20 school with each other and they talked with each other

21 and they lived with each other, and it wouldn't be too

22 much. And Kordic said that he would talk to the Chief

23 Of Police in Mostar to get that Chief Of Police to

24 provide the uniforms.

25 Q. On the 13th of February, was there a meeting

Page 13874

1 of your Chairmanship of the Busovaca Joint Commission,

2 and as a result of the meeting, was an order signed by

3 Blaskic and Hadzihasanovic in Kakanj?

4 A. Yes, there was.

5 Q. At that time, had the BiH received orders,

6 apparently, to sign a ceasefire, the orders coming from

7 Sarajevo, and --

8 A. Yes, they did.

9 Q. -- [inaudible] checkpoints?

10 A. Yes, I believe they had.

11 Q. And what was Blaskic's attitude?

12 A. It was difficult to say at the time, because

13 a great deal of talking went on.

14 I was there, chairing the meeting. The

15 UNPROFOR was represented by Cheshires. The European

16 Community Liaison Officer, ECLO, from BHC Kiseljak was

17 there, and a whole retinue of HVO and BiH. As soon as

18 the proposals were put forward, based on the meeting

19 that we already had and described in paragraph 14 of

20 the summary, a great deal of discussion took place, and

21 it was hammered out, an agreement was hammered out, and

22 it was signed.

23 Q. Did Blaskic say anything in that meeting

24 about outside forces? Just "yes" or "no."

25 A. I can't quite remember, but he was -- I

Page 13875

1 wouldn't be surprised if he had, because he was always

2 mentioning these -- he was always mentioning these

3 outside forces.

4 Q. There are a few remaining documents in the

5 pile. I'm not sure that it's going to be necessary to

6 look at more than two of them, and I'm sorry,

7 therefore, if they are not exactly in chronological and

8 in time chronological order.

9 May you look first at a document, 464A. It's

10 not an order of yours, but it may be that there's one

11 point on it that will help make some sense. 464A.

12 A. 464, so it's probably coupled with it, yes.

13 Q. That's right. 464A is the English version.

14 If you look at the original of 464, is that a document

15 of a type you saw when you were down there or not?

16 A. I don't recall, I don't recall.

17 Q. Well, the only point is this: The Chamber

18 can see, to some degree, the document probably produces

19 itself or may, in due course, be produced by others.

20 But on the 13th of February at 12.30 hours, there was a

21 an order from Blaskic and, one can see, to raise the

22 level of combat readiness, and the reason I show you

23 that document is just to ask you this:

24 At what time was the meeting that you've

25 spoken of before or after that 12.30 hours order, your

Page 13876

1 meeting?

2 A. The meeting we had in Kakanj was late at

3 night.

4 Q. Thank you. And then if we look at 463.1, as

5 it's dated but -- it may be dated, I think.

6 A. Got it.

7 Q. Is that the document or one of the documents

8 that arose from this meeting?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And this document is joint orders whereby --

11 and then there's "withdrawal of troops, freedom of

12 movement, prisoners and detainees," and so on all set

13 out there, signed by whom?

14 A. That was Commander, 3rd Corps.

15 Q. Blaskic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Hadzihasanovic?

18 A. Hadzihasanovic, and Blaskic, and myself as

19 Chairman.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, conscious as I am of

21 the enormous amount of material that has been produced

22 by all sides, the remaining documents, which are now

23 available to the Defence, are the documents of

24 implementation. I'm not sure that they need be

25 produced separately from the documents signed by this

Page 13877

1 witness. They are available, in any event.

2 Q. Mr. Fleming, after reviewing your diary this

3 morning and, therefore, after the summary was prepared,

4 was there one other event concerning Merdani that you

5 can remember and something about some women from

6 Merdani?

7 A. I don't recollect who told me or in --

8 whether it was by telephone or on normal reporting

9 procedures from Zagreb, but I got a report while I was

10 in Busovaca about the fact that in the area of Merdani,

11 some Muslims had been put up against a wall and shot.

12 My next action was to go to the headquarters

13 of the HDZ, where I saw under guard and in a room maybe

14 half this size -- I've forgotten -- but there were

15 women and children inside that room in a state of some

16 distress.

17 After some discussion with the most senior

18 person I could find on the ground there, it was agreed

19 that I should meet a representative of the HDZ the

20 following morning outside the HDZ at half past 6. I

21 was present, but there was a no-show by the other

22 side. I therefore decided and went to Merdani to see

23 if I could find any signs of people having been shot,

24 and I talked to some villagers there who said they knew

25 nothing and weren't going to say anything even if they

Page 13878

1 did.

2 I looked around for an hour or two and saw

3 nothing that could have been signs of bloodshed or

4 graves or anything of that nature. I had an inkling

5 from somewhere that one or two of them had been

6 transported to the hospital in Zenica, but I had no

7 means to check on the veracity of that.

8 So that incident came out as a bit of a

9 nonevent, as far as I was concerned. I merely reported

10 what happened, but there was no follow-up.

11 Q. And what, if any, significance did you find

12 in the fact that the women were complaining at the

13 office of the HDZ, the political party?

14 A. My natural reaction was to find out where

15 they wanted to go; do they want to go home, do they

16 want to go find refuge in Zenica, were they going to

17 fall on the mercy of UNHCR. But I didn't get very far

18 in my conversations with them, and it adds weight to

19 what I just said about it being a non-event.

20 MR. NICE: Yes. Thank you. Wait there,

21 please. You'll be asked further questions.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice,

23 please.

24 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, I had many

25 questions prepared, but I believe the Trial Chamber has

Page 13879

1 heard most of these matters already. It seems there's

2 no purpose in going over them again, and so Mr. Kordic

3 has no questions for Mr. Fleming. Thank you very much,

4 sir.

5 MR. KOVACIC: The same position for the

6 Defence of Mr. Cerkez. We do not have any questions.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Fleming, that concludes your

8 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

9 Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

13 Mr. Nice.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, you seem to have

15 forgotten your microphone.

16 MR. NICE: As the Court knows, we don't have

17 any further witnesses today, or indeed for tomorrow.

18 I've been planning how best to use the time, if use can

19 be made of it, and I think a considerable amount of use

20 can be made of the time.

21 There is, I think now, agreement between the

22 parties that some three village binders can be

23 discussed tomorrow, and Mr. Sayers will correct me if I

24 am wrong, but I think it's Busovaca, Vares -- no, he'll

25 correct me, as he has been discussing directly with

Page 13880

1 Mr. Scott.

2 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, we've made

3 arrangements with Mr. Scott and the Office of the

4 Prosecution to discuss the Zenica binder, the Busovaca

5 dossier and the Zepce dossier.

6 MR. NICE: On top of that, Mr. Kovacic

7 suggested, I think as recently as yesterday or the day

8 before, that we might prepare a small table or schedule

9 in relation to witnesses whose transcripts we would

10 have adduced, and we've done that. It's only been

11 served this afternoon, but it was only suggested a day

12 or so ago. And I think there is a copy available for

13 the Chamber.

14 Obviously, the box per witness available for

15 filling in objections hasn't yet been filled in, but it

16 would seem to us that by tomorrow it should be possible

17 for the Defence to identify, I hope, a large number of

18 those witnesses in respect of whom they have no

19 objections to transcripts being read. Alternatively,

20 to explain why, if it be the case, they are going to

21 argue that transcripts should be read. That's another

22 matter that can be dealt with tomorrow. I don't think

23 it sensibly can be dealt with today, unless there's an

24 alternative view from Mr. Sayers.

25 MR. SAYERS: I just make this point, Your

Page 13881

1 Honour. There are some 46 witnesses. You can imagine

2 the sheer volume of trial transcript testimony that

3 that requires us to review. It's not simply in some

4 witness cases, just in one case, it's in several

5 cases.

6 It seems that the best way, that I can think

7 of anyway, to address this is to address the general

8 principles of whether transcripts should be imported in

9 a wholesale fashion from one case into another. I

10 think that presents some serious problems and some

11 legal issues as well, which we are prepared to discuss

12 tomorrow.

13 Insofar as the 46 witnesses are concerned, we

14 will just ask the Trial Chamber for a little time to be

15 able to review the testimony and to come up with a

16 reasoned and intelligent response, rather than just

17 shooting from the hip in general terms.

18 JUDGE MAY: Look at the Aleksovski decision

19 on that topic.

20 MR. SAYERS: That's precisely what I had in

21 mind, Your Honour.

22 MR. KOVACIC: If I also, Your Honour, also

23 very briefly. The discussion on the witnesses, whose

24 testimony might be on a certain formal way introduced

25 in this case, started between the parties and, indeed,

Page 13882

1 my idea was primarily to try to speed up that process

2 since, by my opinion, it started rather late. And then

3 we will be, I guess, pushed to answer as soon as

4 possible, which is very difficult, because, as my

5 colleague said, it is about 46 witnesses.

6 Of course we will do our best, and my

7 suggestion to the Prosecution, which was welcomed by

8 them, was at least to provide a summary of those

9 witnesses like they used to in earlier outstanding

10 lists, if you remember. So we may practically do --

11 perform a classification, like, this is not important

12 on the very first sight, there is no need to check our

13 databases furthermore, or maybe just briefly. And

14 those, whatever the ratio may be, are important, then

15 we have to look at a little bit more carefully, those

16 transcripts.

17 However, I am afraid that one of the

18 problems, which will somehow cause difficulties

19 reflected in time, in a matter of time, will be the

20 translations. And I am not really insisting on the

21 issue, to have all those witnesses' testimony from

22 other cases translated. Of course I wouldn't do that.

23 It is unnecessary. But there will be probably a

24 certain number of the witnesses, I guess not too much,

25 after this first screening, where we certainly do have

Page 13883

1 interest to analyse them in detail, and that I cannot

2 do sometimes without the input of the client. And I

3 don't think there is any doubt on his right to be

4 informed, at least on the relevant matters. And here

5 we are talking about relevant matters on the Croatian

6 language.

7 So probably, in the next two or three days or

8 so, I will be able to react on the proposition, with

9 all the reserves which were pointed out by my colleague

10 Sayers, legal issue. And I believe the mechanism

11 probably will be one which you, Your Honour, mentioned,

12 Aleksovski case. And then probably we'll be able to

13 react, at least making a base, and tell them that this

14 number of witnesses we will not oppose to have

15 introduced, the transcripts as documentary evidence,

16 but for certain number, I am not talking too many,

17 probably eight, ten, something like that, we would need

18 translation; translation of the testimony sent in

19 within a reasonable time. We would be able to either

20 consent or to oppose.

21 So I am just trying to warn the -- everybody

22 here that we will have a problem of calendar.

23 Everything started a little bit too late, by my

24 opinion. I, of course, appreciated the effort which

25 Prosecution did, and that was what I suggested them,

Page 13884

1 just in order to speed it up, and that it will

2 certainly save a couple of days, I shall say.

3 Your Honour, if I may bring up another thing,

4 while I am still standing. You gave us, by your

5 timetabling order dated the 21st, you also put us

6 certain terms to be respected. And if I may, Your

7 Honour, we have two things to respect.

8 The first one is our response to admission of

9 the documents concerning international armed conflict,

10 and that date is defined as 15 February 2000, and we

11 will surely do that. We are almost finished on this

12 part of the job, even earlier probably. But then the

13 other term is under item 3 of that order, which define

14 that OTP will provide all exhibits by 28 January 2000,

15 and then Defence will respond within 14 days.

16 Even though that majority, the greater part,

17 almost 28 percent or 20 or something percent, almost

18 everything was provided during that week, and on 28th,

19 and provided through the week, and 29th and 30,

20 physically, and some little, little elements which were

21 either mistakes, or errors, or not clear or anything,

22 were given to us subsequently. We are working on that

23 very hard. And that is, Your Honour, really -- I still

24 don't know how many documents. Believe me, it is a

25 stack like this altogether. We, at least, have to have

Page 13885

1 every document in the hand and scan it and then divide

2 them in a couple of categories. Like this one, we have

3 to check a little bit more, this one is probably okay.

4 But that really needs the time. And we don't have too

5 much.

6 And I am kindly asking you if this term

7 defined by item 3, which probably will be corrected to

8 say that it is not -- if it is 14 days after the

9 delivery of material, then it is probably 14 or

10 something of February, or 13 of February, to give us at

11 least until the middle of that week, which is sometime

12 the 16, 17. Better to say by the end of that week.

13 Otherwise -- I mean, if I am forced, I will

14 do it, but then I will be --

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, what I suggest is

16 see how you get on, and if you find yourself in

17 difficulty, you can make a further application.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 MR. NICE: Just a couple of points, I think.

20 As to transcript witnesses, of course they have all

21 been on the witness list, although not some of them, or

22 many of them I suppose, particularised, because they

23 come to be particularised in respect of the village

24 binders. However, there were, of course, the 12

25 witnesses served, for transcript purposes, on the 12th

Page 13886

1 of November, the revised summary or overview, and I

2 think there's an outstanding order that the Defence

3 should respond to those by tomorrow.

4 So that what I respectfully suggest is that

5 those are given a priority, and should be capable of

6 being dealt with tomorrow, in discussion or argument,

7 and that thereafter, perhaps starting at the top of the

8 list and working down would be the best way to deal

9 with it. But in some such way as we can get as many

10 done one, way or another, as possible.

11 I am otherwise quite happy to argue tomorrow,

12 of course, the general issue of the adduction of

13 transcripts. There may be another topic that falls for

14 consideration tomorrow; that is videos. There are

15 other videos which have been served, many videos

16 produced themselves, if they are television broadcasts

17 or videos of meetings of one kind or another. And I

18 think there is an argument about whether these videos

19 can be produced simply as exhibits and played, or

20 whether, in some way, there has to be a witness who is

21 material to the meeting. I'm not quite sure how that

22 arises, but that, perhaps, can be considered tomorrow

23 as well.

24 So one way or another, I think there is quite

25 a lot of stuff that we can do tomorrow that will save

Page 13887

1 time later on.

2 JUDGE MAY: I invite the Defence to

3 concentrate, as far as the transcripts are concerned,

4 to those listed on the Prosecution's updated overview

5 of witnesses on the 10th of November, which you have

6 had since then, page 21, under the heading, "witnesses

7 not to be called, transcripts." And I see, in fact, on

8 that list, eight witnesses, one of whom has already

9 given evidence.

10 MR. NICE: Yes.

11 JUDGE MAY: And we'll look at the same.

12 MR. NICE: One other --

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, I

15 was just talking to my colleague, Judge May, regarding

16 this question of transcripts. I was not at all aware

17 of this problem of transcripts. I hear you speaking of

18 45 witnesses who would have their transcripts

19 produced. I don't know if these are transcripts that

20 have nothing to do with the dossiers, or are those in

21 the dossier included? But, in any event, the figure is

22 an impressive one, 45. And especially so, when we are

23 almost one month to the end of the Prosecution case.

24 So my question is the following: Do you

25 intend to inform us about these transcripts, and to

Page 13888

1 justify the reasons for which you have asked to produce

2 those transcripts at this stage, because for the

3 present we have not been fully informed. I heard

4 reference made to it in hearings, but nothing really

5 happened, no proper argument. And that is why I had

6 consulted with my colleagues, to see about this.

7 MR. NICE: The majority of them relate to the

8 village binders and, therefore, it was always

9 forecasted it would have to be decided at the stage

10 that we were dealing with village binders. You'll also

11 have the schedule prepared by Mr. Scott, responsive to

12 Mr. Kovacic's request, which sets out the content, and

13 thus identifies the reason for their being sought as

14 transcript witnesses.

15 And, of course, as I think we are all aware,

16 the Chamber has been reminding us, certainly in the

17 early stages, of the potential value of transcripts in

18 this case. And we've been responsive to that as well.

19 JUDGE MAY: We'll hear the argument about the

20 transcripts tomorrow. Clearly, the more evidence that

21 can go before us by agreement, the better.

22 As for the other, we'll have to consider it.

23 MR. NICE: A few more short points, if I can

24 just make them. One, I hope that if we are going to

25 now rise, I hope we can use the rest of the afternoon

Page 13889

1 to prepare ourselves by listening to the tapes for the

2 balance of the tape argument tomorrow, because we have

3 yet to hear the extent of the Defence argument, in

4 light of the evidence. And of course resolution of

5 that argument will have an impact on what, if any,

6 other evidence needs to be called about the tapes.

7 There's already some lined up, but I may be able to

8 cancel that.

9 Alternatively, depending on how the argument

10 goes, it may be necessary to call more.

11 The last point. Whenever it was when we

12 dealt with the witness from Vares, and of course we

13 don't name him publicly at the moment. When we dealt

14 with the witness from Vares, the Chamber will remember

15 that I said his name featured in a NordBat document,

16 and was otherwise unknown to our team.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. NICE: I caused further inquiries to be

20 made and as much digging to be done as could be done,

21 and we have located not only the document that the

22 witness speaks of having provided -- been provided to

23 him, but we've also dug up within the Nordbat documents

24 an interview of the man by Nordbat, so that although I

25 don't -- it deals entirely with another named person

Page 13890

1 and with Stupni Do itself, rather than with what went

2 before. But nevertheless it seems to me appropriate to

3 make it available to the Defence, and I'll serve it on

4 them today or tomorrow.

5 JUDGE MAY: Are there any other matters

6 anyone wants to raise?

7 Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

8 MR. KOVACIC: Probably it was better to

9 remind my dear colleague that we also made some

10 progress on the issue of the maps, and I think we ought

11 just to inform the Court that we established a method

12 and steps on how to proceed, because it would be better

13 probably to narrow the possible gap on what we agree

14 and what we don't agree on those maps. Those are very

15 practical material and, I guess, a good approach, and

16 it could save tremendous time, not only now but also

17 later in the Defence case.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, yes.

19 MR. KOVACIC: So that is why we are really

20 trying to use this opportunity and to do something.

21 We also -- I have a feeling that if we will

22 do as it was agreed upon yesterday, that we may have a

23 solution probably before the end of the week after this

24 break which we have, because some details have to be

25 studied, but then in that week anyway.

Page 13891

1 Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MAY: Good. Well, we would encourage

3 any such solution so the matter can be put clearly

4 before us.

5 Yes, Mr. Sayers.

6 MR. SAYERS: Just one very brief matter, Your

7 Honour. I wonder if we might request from the

8 Prosecution a curriculum vitae for Mr. Elford, since we

9 have absolutely no background information on him at

10 all.

11 MR. NICE: I'm only too happy to tell them

12 what I know about him. I'll find out.

13 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

14 Very well. We'll adjourn now until 9

15 tomorrow morning, please.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 3.20 p.m., to be reconvened on

18 Friday, the 4th day of February, 2000,

19 at 9 a.m.