Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13977

1 Monday, 14 February, 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Stein.

9 MR. STEIN: Thank you, sir. I've asked to

10 address the Court to report on the progress we made

11 during the course of the week relative to our reading

12 assignment, if you will. Before you is exactly what we

13 had to analyse over the course of the week. We've done

14 it in a way that we hope would be helpful to the Court

15 relative to our position.

16 On the top of the cart, you'll find the

17 international armed conflict data that we were asked to

18 analyse. We have forwarded to the Prosecution our

19 position and are prepared to give it to the Court in a

20 summary fashion now --

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Stein, there's a

22 witness here.

23 MR. STEIN: Yes, sir.

24 JUDGE MAY: Would it not be convenient to

25 deal with him first, rather than these administrative

Page 13978

1 matters?

2 MR. STEIN: Yes, sir.

3 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything pressing about

4 this which we can't deal with at the end of the day?

5 MR. STEIN: The only reason I raise it now -

6 frankly, we've done a lot of work to try to make

7 everyone's job simpler - is last Friday, a week ago

8 Friday, the 4th, we were given a new batting list.

9 This past Friday, we were again given a new batting

10 order of witnesses, and, indeed, I've tracked those

11 witnesses, and if Your Honour please, basically what I

12 want to say to the Court, and if I can pass these up

13 you can see the charges that were made in the

14 Prosecution's list.

15 The original list that was to be called is

16 set out on the first page. By a letter dated 4

17 February, that list was modified. I informed the

18 Prosecution by letter that we would do our best to be

19 ready for all the witnesses that were on our list but

20 we couldn't promise. [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13979

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted] This morning at

7 9.20, we received a summary for the witness who

8 apparently is about to be called. As I told the

9 Prosecution, it may be a situation where we are ready

10 or are not ready to cross-examine, given the changes

11 that have been going on and what we've been doing.

12 Additionally and finally, and I don't want to

13 whine about this, but we got two new binders in our

14 locker today. We haven't had a chance to analyse them

15 or look at them. I said a week ago Friday, "Enough is

16 enough." We diverted our entire staff this week to

17 taking care of this project, we have not been spending

18 time this week preparing our case, and I can be more

19 specific when the Court has time for the administrative

20 matters. I think you'll find our work edifying and, in

21 some ways, made the matters simpler and perhaps created

22 difficulties in others.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. As far as the

24 witnesses are concerned, you're in a position, are you,

25 to deal with the first witness? I don't know who that

Page 13980

1 is.

2 MR. STEIN: Well, if you look through these

3 documents, you won't know either, but I'm given to

4 understand --

5 MR. NICE: It's also seeking protective

6 measures, so it's witness number 1.

7 JUDGE MAY: On which list, Mr. Nice?

8 MR. NICE: On any of the lists, in fact.

9 Witness number 1 -- not on the first list. It's

10 Witness number 1 on the second list and thereafter.

11 MR. STEIN: I don't think it's number 1. I

12 don't know what list Mr. Nice is referring to.

13 MR. NICE: Witnesses expected to testify

14 according to the letter of the 4th of February.

15 Witness for this week, Witness number 1, the one

16 immediately before Christopher Beese.

17 JUDGE MAY: Then who will testify next?

18 MR. NICE: The Witness next available is

19 number 6. Mr. Lopez-Terres has prepared or is in the

20 process of finally preparing that Witness.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MR. NICE: It is hoped that number 2 may be

23 available today. He's not going to take very long in

24 any event.

25 JUDGE MAY: His evidence is very

Page 13981

1 restricted --

2 MR. NICE: It has been, indeed.

3 JUDGE MAY: -- by order, yes.

4 MR. NICE: Then we come to Witness number 3.

5 Now, all the changes are determined by or caused by

6 availabilities and refusals and changes of position and

7 so on. As to other witnesses for tomorrow, there is

8 either one or two others. I'll find out the names of

9 those and the order in which they fit in on this list.

10 I have to say that apart from absence, the

11 Prosecution's team has also been affected by ill-health

12 and injury this week - not mine, somebody else's - and,

13 therefore, people haven't always been here who might

14 have been. So for today, we've got 1, 6, and I hope 2,

15 and then 3 tomorrow.

16 MR. STEIN: May it please the Court. We have

17 no witness summary for Witness 1. We have a witness

18 summary for Witness 2.

19 MR. NICE: Witness 1 doesn't need a summary.

20 The statement was taken effectively in summary form.

21 It's in 19 numbered paragraphs and it doesn't need

22 further summarising.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let's get on with

24 this. Now, I see that the Defence have produced the

25 exhibit for us; is that right? That's all the

Page 13982

1 material.

2 MR. STEIN: That's right.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I must say, speaking

4 personally, I have some sympathy with the complaints of

5 the Defence about this. Can I be assured, can the

6 Court be assured, that we have now got all the material

7 which you wish to produce before it?

8 MR. NICE: So far as I know, the material has

9 been produced. A lot of it, you will find it has been

10 proved on earlier occasions and has been reproduced.

11 It has to be produced on an inclusive basis, and I was

12 hoping we could deal with that this afternoon.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will deal with it

14 this afternoon. And I think the time has come when

15 enough is enough. Yes, let's have the Witness.

16 MR. STEIN: With the Court's permission, may

17 we move the cart away?

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, move the cart.

19 MR. NICE: Before the Witness comes in, and

20 probably safer in private session, may I make an oral

21 application on his behalf for protective measures. In

22 addition to other problems, on my return yesterday

23 morning, my computer system was down, and I wasn't able

24 to get into it, and still have not. However, I was

25 able to see the Witness number 1 on the list. And the

Page 13983

1 Court will remember, I think, dealing with his

2 potential evidence, and will know the particular issue

3 to which it goes.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13984

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE MAY: Let the Witness take the

14 declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

17 truth


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Nice:

21 Q. You have been granted protection by the --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. You have been granted protection by the

25 Chamber, and therefore your name will not be revealed

Page 13985

1 and your face will not be revealed either. Bearing

2 that in mind, will you look at this piece of paper,

3 which the Usher will bring you, and just say "yes" if

4 it be the case that that is your name on the piece of

5 paper.

6 A. No. Yes.

7 Q. You will be known throughout your evidence as

8 Witness AE. Witness AE, were you for a time in the

9 early 1990s, or the early to mid-1990s, a member of the

10 reconnaissance sabotage squadron of the 333rd Mountain

11 Brigade of the ABiH?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did you start; approximately when did

14 you finish?

15 A. On the 1st of January, 1993, I joined, and I

16 left in April, 1995.

17 Q. In the beginning, who was the Commander of

18 that Brigade, or that Squadron?

19 A. The Commander was Dzevad Mekic.

20 Q. And then later, who became Commander?

21 A. Ekrem Alihodzic [phoen] later. And then

22 after that, Mirsad Sesic [phoen].

23 Q. In January, 1993, who had control of

24 Busovaca, after a certain time?

25 A. The HVO.

Page 13986

1 Q. And from approximately what date did they

2 have control of Busovaca?

3 A. From when the war started in Bosnia, when

4 they took control of Busovaca.

5 Q. And from that date, were you able to pass

6 through Busovaca in uniform or not?

7 A. Yes, for a while.

8 Q. And then, after a while?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And again, can you remember at all the date

11 after which it was not possible to pass through

12 Busovaca in uniform, roughly?

13 A. The 15th of January, 1993.

14 Q. Was there a checkpoint established at Kacuni

15 on the road between Busovaca and Kiseljak?

16 A. You mean Kacuni?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Yes, there was.

19 Q. By whom was that checkpoint manned, in

20 general?

21 A. The BiH Military Police controlled the road

22 from Kacuni to Silovac [phoen], the barracks there, and

23 the Kacuni, Busovaca, Kiseljak, at Kacuni near the

24 mosque.

25 Q. Did you perform checkpoint duties there?

Page 13987

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you on duty on the 20th of January?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who else was there on duty on that day?

5 A. There was the leader, Miralem Delija, Nedzad

6 Karaula, Suad Koluh, and Hamdija Katjaz.

7 Q. When you stopped vehicles, in general, what

8 inquiries did you make of the vehicle occupants?

9 A. We asked for papers.

10 Q. What sort of papers?

11 A. Military booklets, if they were in uniform.

12 If they were civilians, identity cards.

13 Q. Were you in contact by field telephone or

14 other means with any other Commanders of yours?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In what sort of people, if any, did you have

17 particular interest at that checkpoint?

18 A. We checked everyone, and particularly people

19 in uniform.

20 Q. On that afternoon, was there an incident

21 involving several vehicles that were travelling in a

22 line?

23 A. Incident?

24 Q. Yes. Was there a stopping of several

25 vehicles that arrived together?

Page 13988

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What time of day, if you can help?

3 A. In the afternoon.

4 Q. How many vehicles were travelling together?

5 A. Four.

6 Q. Had you received any advance notice of the

7 arrival of these vehicles or not?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Who was in the first car, or the first

10 vehicle?

11 A. In the first vehicle there was Grubesic. I

12 can't recall his first name --

13 Q. Who was this --

14 A. -- I don't know it, and his driver.

15 Q. Who was this particular Grubesic? What role

16 did he have?

17 A. He was the Commander of the Jokers.

18 Q. Was that first vehicle a car or a military

19 vehicle, or can't you remember?

20 A. It was a car.

21 Q. The second vehicle, what sort of vehicle was

22 it? Who was in it?

23 A. The second vehicle was a jeep, that's how we

24 call it. There was the driver in it, Dario Kordic,

25 Vlado Cosic, and someone else was there. I don't know

Page 13989

1 whom.

2 Q. The third vehicle, can you say what sort of

3 vehicle it was and anything about its occupants?

4 A. It was a civilian vehicle.

5 Q. Did you know anything -- can you tell us

6 anything about the occupants, the number of occupants,

7 or not?

8 A. There were three in the fourth vehicle but I

9 did not know any one of them.

10 Q. The fourth vehicle, what was that?

11 A. A civilian vehicle, an Ascona. I know that

12 particular vehicle. There were -- Zeljo Vukadinovic,

13 Dragan Vukadinovic, and Spomenko Akrap were in it.

14 Q. How were they dressed?

15 A. Military uniforms.

16 Q. Did you know which units any one of those

17 were a member of?

18 A. Yes. In the fourth vehicle, we are talking

19 about the fourth vehicle, aren't we?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Yes, I do. They belonged to the Jokers

22 Unit.

23 Q. Were any emblems identifying units worn by

24 any of them?

25 A. I did not see it there at the checkpoint but

Page 13990

1 I did see it before that.

2 Q. Thank you. Did you tell us what relation the

3 two Vukadinovics were, one to another, Dragan to Zeljo?

4 A. Cousins.

5 Q. Which vehicle did those of you controlling

6 the checkpoint first approach?

7 A. The first one.

8 Q. What was done? What was asked of the

9 occupants?

10 A. Miralem Delija and I approached and Miralem

11 asked them to show their documents, their military

12 booklets, and the driver did not give that. He offered

13 his I.D. but Miralem wouldn't take it, he wanted to see

14 the military booklet. Grubesic then began to verbally

15 abuse Miralem, to provoke him, and then we raised our

16 weapons and Miralem approached from Grubesic's side and

17 took away his pistol.

18 Q. How was Grubesic dressed?

19 A. Civilian clothes.

20 Q. When you say he provoked, can you give any

21 detail of the provocation?

22 A. Well, "Who are you to ask for that?" and

23 other things like that.

24 Q. What happened so far as the second car was

25 concerned?

Page 13991

1 A. When we took -- or, rather, when Miralem

2 seized that pistol, and at that moment Nedzad Karaula

3 told Miralem, "Here is your neighbour in the second

4 car," and Kordic was about to get out of the second

5 car, and he said, "Why did Miralem take that weapon?"

6 and he said that he'd pay for that.

7 Q. How far did Kordic go in getting out of the

8 car? Did he get out of the car or did he stay in the

9 car?

10 A. No, he did not get out of the car.

11 Q. How clearly did you see him?

12 A. Very clearly.

13 Q. How near to or far from him were you when you

14 saw him?

15 A. Well, four metres, could have been four or

16 five metres, perhaps.

17 Q. What was the attitude of Miralem to Kordic

18 when he said, "You'll pay for this," or "You'll pay for

19 that"?

20 A. Oh, well, Miralem simply laughed. Well, I

21 mean, not laughed as if he was happy to hear that but

22 sort of a cold laugh.

23 Q. Had Miralem approached Kordic in any way

24 himself or not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13992

1 Q. Had you seen that approach?

2 A. He did not come right up to him. He was

3 perhaps a metre or two away.

4 Q. Was there anything aggressive in the manner

5 of Miralem's approach to Kordic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What happened next, if you can remember?

8 A. Yes. When we stopped the vehicle, Suad Koluh

9 called the Brigade Commander, because we had a field

10 telephone connection, to inform that we'd stopped four

11 vehicles, and we were then notified to let them go and

12 we let them go.

13 Q. Had you ever taken a weapon from a vehicle

14 before? I don't mean you personally. Had the people

15 operating the checkpoint ever taken a weapon from a

16 vehicle before?

17 A. I myself did not do it but weapons were

18 taken; that is, we took them from them and they took it

19 from us in Busovaca and elsewhere, and they were

20 exchanged two or three times.

21 Q. This particular weapon, how would you

22 describe it, if you can now remember?

23 A. We called it a TT, nickel plated.

24 Q. Was it kept or returned?

25 A. We kept it, that is Miralem kept it, and then

Page 13993

1 he lost it some four or five days later.

2 Q. Later that day, just yes or no to this, did

3 you discuss events with Delija?

4 A. Before or after?

5 Q. Afterwards, did you discuss the position of

6 his family, in particular?

7 A. No. Miralem, no.

8 Q. Did you discuss the Delija family at all?

9 A. That, yes. Afterwards we wanted to go and

10 get Miralem Delija's family out, to go across the hill

11 to rescue them, because Miralem said they were in peril

12 there. But there were very few of us, only around

13 eight. There were just too few and we did not go to

14 Busovaca.

15 Q. Did you report for duty the next morning?

16 A. I got up to go on duty, and I was told then

17 that Mirsad Delija, that he had been killed.

18 Q. Who told you about that first?

19 A. Ernest Koluh, the Battalion Commander.

20 Q. Did you see Miralem that day?

21 A. Yes, right after that. As Ernest told me, I

22 saw.

23 Q. Did he tell you also about the killing of his

24 brother?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13994

1 Q. Mirsad, also known as what? What was his

2 other name, or nickname?

3 A. Soco.

4 Q. Before I come to paragraph 16, the Chamber

5 will discover that there's an error in a name on 16,

6 which is explained by the nickname. And the way to

7 deal with that is to cross refer back to the nickname.

8 It will become clearer if one looks at paragraph 10.

9 It's the nickname that is right and the other name that

10 is wrong.

11 Q. Witness AE, were you at the checkpoint some

12 days later when you saw something of one of the men who

13 had been in the four cars that had been stopped?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What date was it?

16 A. January 25th.

17 Q. Using not the full family name, but the

18 nickname, which was the man you saw?

19 A. Charlie.

20 Q. And just remind us, paragraph 10, what's the

21 full name of Charlie?

22 A. Spomenko Akrap.

23 Q. How well did you know him?

24 A. I knew him very well, because we were school

25 fellows, and we were together in the drama section. We

Page 13995

1 spent there many years together, and we went -- we

2 attended the same elementary school at Kaonik.

3 Q. In what vehicle was he travelling?

4 A. It was a jeep, a relatively small one, and it

5 had "police" written on it.

6 Q. You told us, I think, of the group to which

7 Charlie, Spomenko Akrap, belonged. He was, was he, one

8 of the Jokers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Driving a vehicle marked "police," was there

11 anything unusual in that or not, for a member of the

12 Jokers?

13 A. No.

14 Q. In which direction was he travelling?

15 A. From Busovaca to Kiseljak.

16 Q. Did you stop him and detain him, or let him

17 through?

18 A. I did stop him, but I did not arrest him. I

19 let him through.

20 Q. After he had passed, was Miralem around?

21 A. Yes. He asked me whom had I stopped, and I

22 told him that I had stopped Charlie. And he asked me,

23 "Why did you let him go?"

24 Q. Did he say anything else?

25 MR. STEIN: Objection, Your Honour. If you

Page 13996

1 look at the paragraph 16, you will see we are into the

2 range of unreliability.

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, it's the comment of

4 Miralem, who has since died.

5 MR. STEIN: Correct. And the basis of his

6 knowledge is unclear, and so we could be talking about

7 second, third, fourth reports, or rumours.

8 JUDGE MAY: It's a question of weight, isn't

9 it? Like many of these hearsay points.

10 MR. STEIN: Of course. It's also a question

11 of prejudicial versus probative and how you balance.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MAY: We'll admit this evidence.

14 Clearly, as against the man Charlie, it would not be

15 evidence on which a great deal of reliance could be

16 placed. But as part of the evidence in the case, it's

17 admissible. What weight it will have, will depend on

18 how it fits in, if at all, with any other evidence.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. What was it that Miralem --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

22 Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. What was it that Miralem said about Charlie?

25 A. To Charlie or about Charlie?

Page 13997

1 Q. About Charlie.

2 A. All he said was, "Why did you let him go?"

3 Q. Did he say anything else?

4 A. "He killed my Soco."

5 Q. You had been discussing the previous day the

6 possibility of the Delija family moving?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you be more specific? Which part of the

9 Delija family were you referring to? Was it Miralem's

10 family, was it Mirsad's, was it the parents, or who?

11 A. Parents and a brother, I think. Miralem

12 Delija's wife was in Zenica already.

13 Q. Did you know where Miralem lived at that

14 time, and whether he lived with his parents, or

15 elsewhere?

16 A. Miralem had his own house, but it was nearby.

17 Q. Did you know where his brother, the one who

18 was killed, was living at the time or not?

19 A. I believe he was living with his parents, but

20 I'm not a hundred per cent sure. But I do think that

21 he lived with his parents.

22 Q. Following the stopping of Charlie, and

23 Miralem saying what he did, did an armoured vehicle

24 appear at the checkpoint?

25 A. First UNPROFOR came, rather their vehicle,

Page 13998

1 and they wanted to go the route and move on towards the

2 barracks, towards the silo, but our order was not to

3 let them through towards the barracks. So we lined up

4 and would not let them; that is, we turned the weapons

5 at them and did not let UNPROFOR through. And they

6 lined around the meadow, around the mosque and beyond

7 the mosque. And as we were there with UNPROFOR, an HVO

8 vehicle arrived with a PAM, and an anti-aircraft

9 machine gun was there. And it opened fire on us, and

10 on people who were in the meadow. And our people

11 responded and the armoured vehicle went through.

12 Q. How long after Charlie's passage did this

13 armoured vehicle arrive?

14 A. Some 15 minutes.

15 Q. Was anybody injured in this burst of firing,

16 or the response to it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you now, please, look at the one exhibit

19 that I'd ask you to deal with, Z410.2. And the English

20 version can go on the ELMO, the witness having the

21 original version. This is a document dated the 27th of

22 January, apparently over the name of Pasko Ljubicic,

23 and it relates to something that happened on the 24th,

24 and something that happened on the 25th. As to the

25 24th, it speaks of fire opened from infantry weapons on

Page 13999

1 the Kiseljak-Busovaca road, and it speaks of somebody

2 being killed, together with a civilian person who had

3 been driving. So that would be two people being

4 killed. And it says that fire was opened by Muslim

5 forces, both persons were massacred and stabbed with

6 knives. Were you present on that day?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it right that two people were killed?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Tell us what happened, then?

11 A. When the armoured vehicle arrived, a Toyota

12 car came up. Ivica Petrovic was driving it. He was in

13 a military uniform and he also opened fire on us. And

14 one of our members fired a Zolja at the car, and Ivica

15 Petrovic was killed on that occasion. And there was

16 another civilian with him. I know him. Now, I don't

17 know whether this was a nickname or a proper first

18 name, but we called him Srecko, and he escaped from the

19 car. And our man took him over to the other side, that

20 is to the Croat side. In other words, he stayed alive.

21 Q. The account of the -- this is not for the

22 witness, it's just for the Chamber's benefit. The

23 account of the two persons relates to another exhibit

24 that the Chamber was dealing with a couple of weeks

25 ago.

Page 14000

1 I am not going to deal with paragraph 19,

2 having discussed the matter with the Witness. It seems

3 to fall on the wrong side of the remoteness test that

4 the Chamber applies.

5 Thank you. You will be asked some further

6 questions.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

8 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. Witness AE, allow

9 me to introduce myself. I am lawyer Mitko Naumovski

10 from Zagreb, one of the Defence counsel representing

11 Dario Kordic. I have several questions for you, but in

12 view of the interpretation into the official languages

13 of the Court, please wait a few seconds before giving

14 us your answer.

15 Witness AE, you made a statement to the

16 investigators, or, rather, one of the Prosecutors on

17 the 16th of December, 1999. I assume you remember

18 that.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Had you ever before made a statement to

21 anybody whatsoever?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Over a period of seven years since this

24 incident, which occurred in January 1993, until the

25 16th of December, 1993, did you discuss this event with

Page 14001

1 anyone?

2 A. I don't remember. I may have done. I don't

3 know.

4 Q. You don't remember at all. Officially or

5 privately?

6 A. Perhaps I spoke privately about it, with a

7 member of the family or someone.

8 Q. Today, Witness AE, you told us exactly when

9 you were a member of the BH Army. Tell us, before the

10 1st of January, 1993, did you belong to the Territorial

11 Defence?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'm interested in the period from May or June

14 1992 until the end of 1992. Were you in the TO in that

15 period?

16 A. From April 1992, I was in the Territorial

17 Defence.

18 Q. In Busovaca?

19 A. In Lugovi and then later in Kacuni.

20 Q. But Lugovi organisationally came under the

21 Busovaca TO, didn't they? The Commander was Husein

22 Hadzimejlic, was he not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can we agree, Witness AE, that after the HVO

25 took control in Busovaca in May 1992, the TO continued

Page 14002

1 its activities with its headquarters in Kacuni?

2 A. For a time, the headquarters were in Lugovi,

3 as I said. Afterwards it moved to Kacuni. I don't

4 know the exact date, when the TO moved to Kacuni, but

5 it did go there.

6 Q. But we agree that the TO was operating in the

7 territory of Busovaca municipality.

8 A. Yes, in the territory of the municipality but

9 not in the town.

10 Q. Do we also agree - I assume you know this

11 because many of your colleagues were living in the town

12 of Busovaca - that they travelled to work in Kacuni

13 from Busovaca in that period of 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Just one question related to January 1993.

16 You said that from the 15th of January, 1993, there was

17 a prohibition on the carrying of weapons and uniforms.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know, and do you agree with me that

20 this was a joint command, a joint order issued by

21 Colonel Blaskic and the Commander of the 3rd Corps,

22 Hadzihasanovic, that people should not carry weapons

23 and uniforms in inhabited areas, that this was jointly

24 decided?

25 A. I do not know.

Page 14003

1 Q. So let us now focus on the events of January

2 1993. If I understood you well, you were a member of a

3 Reconnaissance Sabotage Squad of the 333rd Brigade.

4 You said today that control on the road was held by the

5 Military Police, didn't you?

6 A. You mean Kacuni? In Kacuni and the road

7 towards the barracks, that's the road going from the

8 mosque to the barracks, and this was controlled by the

9 Military Police.

10 Q. The answer is not in the transcript, when you

11 agreed with me that you were a member of the

12 Reconnaissance Sabotage Squad of the 333rd Mountain

13 Brigade. Your answer was yes.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So the Military Police controlled this road.

16 A. Not the main road but the road going from

17 Kacuni to Kasina, which is a road branching off from

18 the main road, and the IDV held a checkpoint on the

19 Busovaca-Kiseljak road.

20 Q. So members of this Reconnaissance Sabotage

21 Squad manned this checkpoint in Kacuni.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell us, please, whether this checkpoint was

24 manned by members of a Company of the 2nd Battalion

25 under the command of Sead Sljivar. What was your

Page 14004

1 answer?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So if I understand you correctly, the

4 checkpoint at Kacuni, on the main road from Busovaca to

5 Kiseljak, was not held by the Military Police.

6 A. It was not.

7 Q. Do we agree then that the Reconnaissance

8 Sabotage Squad had some special assignments related to

9 that checkpoint?

10 A. They were not special assignments; we simply

11 manned the checkpoint.

12 Q. You told us briefly what your duties were at

13 the checkpoint, to stop all vehicles and check personal

14 documents.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was the purpose of that, checking

17 documents?

18 A. I don't know. It was our duty to examine

19 them and take note of them in a logbook.

20 Q. So you recorded the names of all the persons

21 whose documents you had checked, you took their names

22 down in a book.

23 A. Yes, more or less.

24 Q. When exactly was that checkpoint established,

25 with the continuous duty of examining vehicles and

Page 14005

1 passengers?

2 JUDGE MAY: The witness said in his evidence

3 the 15th of January. That's what he said so there's no

4 need to ask him again.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

6 Your Honour. I didn't hear that. Then I can move on

7 and accept that.

8 Q. But we do agree, Witness AE, that Croats were

9 mostly moving along this road through Kacuni.

10 A. Yes, mostly, in the direction of Busovaca.

11 Q. Do we also agree that members of the HVO were

12 persons of special interest for you whom you needed to

13 check?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You told us today that on the field telephone

16 you received orders regarding certain particular

17 vehicles. Who gave you those orders?

18 A. No. No, we didn't get orders to search

19 vehicles, but those we considered to be interesting, we

20 searched.

21 Q. I read that from your statement, under point

22 5 when it says, "Sometimes we received orders over the

23 field telephone to search certain vehicles of interest

24 to us."

25 A. When we reported that we had stopped someone

Page 14006

1 in uniform, I said that sometimes we confiscated the

2 weapons. I personally didn't but others did seize

3 weapons from some HVO members, so it's quite possible

4 that we also searched them.

5 Q. But my question is who was the person who

6 gave you approval or orders to do that, your Commander

7 or someone else?

8 A. As far as we were concerned, my squad,

9 Miralem made the decisions.

10 Q. Let us go on to this event that you say

11 occurred on the 20th [Realtime transcript read in

12 error "23rd"] of January, 1993. My first question is,

13 do you know which day of the week it was?

14 A. No. No.

15 Q. So you don't know. Please speak up a little

16 bit.

17 A. No, I don't know.

18 Q. Today you listed the names of the persons who

19 were with you at the checkpoint. My question is was

20 Semir Jugovic from Kacuni with you?

21 A. No. Semir Jugovic was a member of the

22 Military Police. He was not with us.

23 Q. Can you agree with me that there were several

24 dozen soldiers at the checkpoint and around it on that

25 occasion?

Page 14007

1 A. No.

2 Q. How many were you then?

3 A. Five.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, I'm sorry to

5 interrupt but you put the 23rd of January. I thought

6 the evidence was it was the 20th. I'll be corrected if

7 I'm wrong.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] It may be

9 either my mistake or a mistake in the translation. I

10 was referring to the events of the 20th of January.

11 This is a mistake. I'm sorry. The 20th of January,

12 yes.

13 Q. Tell us, please, from which direction did you

14 check vehicles?

15 A. Vehicles coming from both directions.

16 Q. This checkpoint was established using

17 old tyres and other means to block traffic. Both lanes

18 were not free.

19 A. Yes, they were. Both lanes were open.

20 Q. So you didn't use any special obstacles?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How, then, did you stop vehicles, by raising

23 your hand, simply?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me, please, alongside the road was a

Page 14008

1 large truck parked with logs, loaded with logs, parked

2 at right angles with the road, outside the

3 carriageway.

4 A. I think not.

5 Q. But you're not sure.

6 A. No, I'm not sure.

7 Q. Let us refer to the weapons that you had, you

8 members of this reconnaissance sabotage squad. What

9 kind of weapons did you have?

10 A. We had automatic weapons.

11 Q. You mean automatic rifles? What model were

12 they?

13 A. They were manufactured by Crvena Zastava.

14 Q. Did you also have pistols?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did anyone have a so-called RPG?

17 A. We had that in the little house, the little

18 hut.

19 Q. What does that mean, please, "in the hut"?

20 A. Where the field telephone was.

21 Q. So you had an RPG ready. Several pieces?

22 A. No, one. We didn't have that much weapons.

23 Q. Was anyone in particular in charge of the use

24 of that RPG?

25 A. We all knew how to handle it.

Page 14009

1 Q. I was listening carefully to you but I didn't

2 hear you tell us from what direction these vehicles had

3 come.

4 A. Kiseljak-Busovaca.

5 Q. So you mean from Kiseljak?

6 A. I'm not sure whether they were coming from

7 Kiseljak, but from that direction, yes.

8 Q. Tell us, please, could you please describe to

9 us how those vehicles approached. Were there other

10 vehicles on the road, UNPROFOR trucks, or any other

11 vehicles?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How were these vehicles approaching? What

14 was the distance between the individual vehicles?

15 A. They were close. I really couldn't say how

16 many metres separated one from the other. Three, four,

17 five metres, perhaps.

18 Q. The Prosecutor asked you today when this was

19 and you said it was in the afternoon. Could you be

20 perhaps more precise? Was it about 5, later, or

21 before that?

22 A. It was earlier; it wasn't just before dusk.

23 So it could have been between 12 and 2.

24 Q. So that's what you consider the afternoon.

25 This was January. Was it cloudy?

Page 14010

1 A. I really don't know.

2 Q. You don't remember? Let me put it

3 differently. Had it become dark already?

4 A. No.

5 Q. A few words now about these approaching

6 vehicles. For the first vehicle, you said that

7 Grubesic was in it in civilian clothes.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But you don't really know him, this

10 Grubesic.

11 A. No, I didn't know him at the time either.

12 Q. Well, who knew him?

13 A. Miralem Delija knew him.

14 Q. As he was in civilian clothes, how did you

15 know that he was the Jokers Commander when you didn't

16 know him?

17 A. Miralem knew that and the others who knew

18 him.

19 Q. But who told you? You don't know.

20 A. Well, let me say Miralem told me. Somebody

21 told me.

22 Q. So somebody told you.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If I were to give you the name, would that

25 remind you of the person?

Page 14011

1 A. No. I don't know that person, I never knew

2 him.

3 Q. I must tell you, Witness AE, that your

4 testimony today differs from what you said a month or

5 so ago. You said explicitly that both Grubesic and the

6 driver in the first vehicle were in uniform. This is

7 item 7.

8 A. The driver was in uniform.

9 Q. You said, "In the first car was Grubesic in a

10 camouflage uniform. With him was a driver also in a

11 camouflage uniform."

12 A. The driver was in a camouflage uniform, I

13 said that, but as for Grubesic, I don't believe I said

14 that.

15 Q. Will you speak up.

16 A. The driver was in a camouflage uniform.

17 That's why we asked him to show his military booklet.

18 And the person, the gentleman sitting next to him, I

19 don't think that is what I said. But I read it out to

20 you. That is what it said here.

21 Q. So you don't agree with what I read out, that

22 Grubesic was in a camouflage uniform?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. In that vehicle that arrived first, you and

25 Miralem Delija approached it. Who conducted the

Page 14012

1 conversation?

2 A. Miralem Delija.

3 Q. Do we agree that you approached the vehicle

4 with your guns pointed?

5 A. No. We pointed the guns at the vehicle when

6 Grubesic started insulting Miralem.

7 Q. Will you please explain how you held your

8 weapons before?

9 A. On our shoulders.

10 Q. On your shoulders?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If I understood you correctly, the driver

13 obeyed immediately, and he gave you his personal ID

14 card. This is a means of identifying people; is it

15 not?

16 A. Yes. For us he was a soldier, and he had to

17 have a military booklet. And on that booklet, not only

18 his name, but also the unit he belonged to had to be

19 indicated.

20 Q. I assume that that was what you were going to

21 say. So one of your tasks was also to establish the

22 deployment of troops passing through your area?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Very well. When Miralem Delija pointed his

25 gun at Grubesic, he also opened the door of his car,

Page 14013

1 didn't he?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was it possible to see that the persons in

4 the car had weapons?

5 A. No.

6 Q. But Delija still insisted that weapons be

7 handed over to him, if there were any?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And Grubesic did so? He gave up his pistol,

10 didn't he?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How do you know that Delija lost that pistol

13 later on?

14 A. We were together that day when he lost it,

15 and we went looking for it and we couldn't find it.

16 Q. How many days after the event?

17 A. Four or five.

18 Q. But your duties at the checkpoint was not to

19 seize private weapons, but to keep it, put it away

20 somewhere?

21 A. Miralem kept that weapon.

22 Q. So he did so without the necessary authority?

23 A. No. He had the right to keep the weapon.

24 Q. He didn't have to hand it over to his

25 command?

Page 14014

1 A. No, his command knew that he had taken the

2 weapon, and he didn't hand it over to the command. It

3 is normal for a leader to have a pistol, isn't it?

4 Q. You know, Witness AE, that later on a request

5 was made to return that pistol of Grubesic's?

6 A. I heard those stories. There was a rumour

7 that I think Kostroman demanded that the pistol be

8 returned, but these were just stories. It's something

9 I just heard, as a rumour. However, I think that that

10 is not true, that no request was made to restore the

11 pistol.

12 Q. When you mentioned Mr. Kostroman, do you know

13 who he was?

14 A. I know from stories that he was the President

15 of the municipality in Busovaca. That's all I know.

16 Q. In the town of Busovaca?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Very well. Witness AE, let us go onto the

19 second vehicle now. Tell me, please, do you know

20 anything in particular about that jeep, the brand, the

21 colour, the registration plates?

22 A. I can't remember what kind of registration

23 plates there were at the time.

24 Q. So you can't give us any further detailed

25 description of that vehicle, at least the colour?

Page 14015

1 Well, if you don't know, tell us you don't know.

2 That's an answer.

3 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

4 Q. Tell me, please, how many persons were there

5 in that car?

6 A. Four persons.

7 Q. Where was the person, whom you recognised as

8 Mr. Kordic, sitting?

9 A. He was sitting in front, next to the driver.

10 Q. How were the passengers dressed in that

11 vehicle?

12 A. In civilian clothes.

13 Q. All four of them?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you describe any detail about the

16 clothing worn by Mr. Kordic? Was he wearing a suit,

17 did he have a tie?

18 A. I don't know. Probably he was.

19 Q. But you don't know exactly?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. You can't remember any detail regarding his

22 clothing? Did he have a coat?

23 A. Well, he must have had a coat. It was

24 wintertime.

25 Q. Yes, but, please, don't make any inferences.

Page 14016

1 Did you see him wearing a coat?

2 A. No. No. I really don't remember anything,

3 those details.

4 Q. Tell me, please, did he have a hat on his

5 head?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you remember the length of his hair?

8 A. He was -- he had a short cut.

9 Q. Tell me, did he have a beard, or a beard and

10 a moustache?

11 A. No.

12 Q. No?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was he wearing glasses?

15 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

16 Q. You told us that this second vehicle was

17 approached by Nedzad Karaula. Where was he from? Is

18 he from Busovaca?

19 A. He is from Bukovci. It's a village in

20 Busovaca municipality near Kacuni.

21 Q. When he called Miralem Delija, how far away

22 from you was he?

23 A. About -- he was three or four metres away

24 from the car.

25 Q. That must have been the distance. Since you

Page 14017

1 were next to the first car, the second car was behind

2 the first car, so you were looking at it from the

3 front. And Miralem Delija made a couple of steps

4 towards that vehicle?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But you did not? You stayed next to the

7 first vehicle, didn't you?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Today, Witness AE, you said that the person

10 whom you identified as Mr. Kordic was about to leave

11 the car, and then he addressed a couple of words to

12 Miralem?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you said that he objected to why the

15 weapon was being taken?

16 A. "Why are you doing that?" He said, "You will

17 pay for this." That's what he said.

18 Q. Witness AE, when you made your statement less

19 than two months ago, you said that Mr. Kordic opened

20 the door of the car and called out something to

21 Miralem. You didn't actually cite the words you heard?

22 A. No, that is not correct. I always gave these

23 words. I heard those words being spoken.

24 Q. Your Honour, the only thing I can do is to

25 show the Witness his testimony in Croatian.

Page 14018

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let him see it.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Look at point 12, please. And will you read

4 out what has been highlighted. Do you agree that that

5 is what it says?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The first part, that he called out something;

8 is that what it says?

9 A. Yes, that is what is written there.

10 Q. But there is nothing as to what was said, is

11 there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You said "no"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And this afternoon, for the first time, you

16 are telling us that something was said.

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, this is not a fair way of

18 putting it. Look at the paragraph and, so that the

19 record is clear, I will read the English translation:

20 "At this point Kordic opened the car door

21 and called out something to Miralem. Miralem

22 approached Kordic. Kordic then threatened Miralem,

23 saying, 'You will pay me for this.' Miralem laughed at

24 him."

25 And that is what paragraph 12 of the

Page 14019

1 statement has.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

3 I quite agree with you. That is precisely my

4 question. If the Witness didn't hear the first words

5 that were called out, I wanted to ask how come he

6 managed to hear the other words.

7 A. It doesn't say here that I didn't hear them.

8 It says that he called something out to Miralem.

9 Q. Exactly, Witness AE, but "something" means

10 that you don't know what, otherwise the words would

11 have been taken down. But it is, of course, up to

12 Their Honours to judge.

13 What was the tone used by Mr. Kordic, when he

14 uttered the words you heard?

15 A. So that it could be heard.

16 Q. Was it a shout or was it in a normal voice?

17 A. No, he didn't shout, but the answer was a

18 sharply intoned one.

19 Q. Miralem Delija was approaching Kordic just

20 then?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We also agree that he still had his automatic

23 rifle in his hand, and that automatic rifle was pointed

24 forwards?

25 A. No. He held his automatic rifle in one hand,

Page 14020

1 pointing downwards.

2 Q. And you said, after those words that you

3 claim were uttered, that Miralem laughed.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell me, please, you told us today that

6 Miralem Delija, towards the end of the day, several

7 hours later, expressed fear for his family?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How come that he should have said that

10 several hours later, whereas here he laughed?

11 A. No. I just explained that a moment ago.

12 Maybe you didn't hear me properly. It wasn't a laugh,

13 as if he was glad that he heard this. Miralem was a

14 taciturn man, and a highly -- a man in control. He

15 didn't wish to react to that provocation. But it isn't

16 true that he was concerned several hours later. He was

17 probably concerned immediately.

18 Q. But you said in your statement later on that

19 day.

20 A. Later on that day we spoke about this. We

21 discussed the problem of Miralem's family.

22 Q. Yes. Yes. Very well. As for the third

23 vehicle, you also said that it was a civilian vehicle

24 and you didn't recognise anyone?

25 A. I did not.

Page 14021

1 Q. Were they soldiers or civilians?

2 A. They were soldiers.

3 Q. Who approached that vehicle?

4 A. No one approached it. No one.

5 Q. Why not? It was your duty to check the

6 vehicles.

7 A. Because we received orders to let them go.

8 Q. Tell me, this telephone conversation was

9 conducted by one of your colleagues. Did he tell you

10 whom he spoke to? Was it with Husein Hadzimejlic?

11 A. Husein Hadzimejlic was not the Commander at

12 the time.

13 Q. So he didn't speak to him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Let us clear up this particular detail

16 regarding the passengers of the fourth vehicle.

17 Between the statement you made in writing earlier on,

18 and now, the nickname Charlie is being used for two

19 different people.

20 A. That's a technical error. I know Charlie

21 personally. We went to school together.

22 Q. So, according to you, Charlie is Spomenko

23 Akrap?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, it's now time for

Page 14022

1 an adjournment. Have you very much more for this

2 witness?

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Not more than

4 15 or 20 minutes, Your Honour. Not more.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well, we'll adjourn. But

6 since you have been dealing with the incident at the

7 checkpoint, I want to be clear about this. Is there

8 any dispute that Mr. Kordic said, "You will pay for

9 this"?

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] It is in

11 absolute dispute. We are not claiming, but the fact is

12 that Mr. Kordic wasn't at that checkpoint then at all.

13 So it's a completely -- it's a complete mistake of

14 identity.

15 JUDGE MAY: Well, you had better put that,

16 then, to the Witness, that --

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let me finish. You must put it

19 to the Witness, so he has the chance of answering the

20 suggestion. You must put to him that he's mistaken

21 about Kordic being there at all. Put it to him now.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Witness AE, you have heard what I told Their

24 Honours. Mr. Kordic was not there at the checkpoint

25 then, Mr. Kostroman and his bodyguards were stopped?

Page 14023

1 A. No.

2 Q. And not only that, they weren't coming from

3 Kiseljak, they were coming from Busovaca going to

4 Kiseljak? The direction is wrong.

5 A. I don't know what you are saying. This is

6 what I saw. I know Mr. Kordic, I knew him then, and I

7 saw him there.

8 Q. But can you agree with me that you also knew,

9 because these were well-known persons, and you saw them

10 on television, both Colonel Blaskic and Mr. Kostroman

11 and Anto Valenta, and I don't know who else?

12 A. I didn't know Mr. Blaskic at the time at

13 all.

14 Q. You'd never seen him on television?

15 A. I did after that.

16 Q. Something else is incorrect, Witness AE. I

17 have spoken to many people who have knowledge about

18 this. They are all claiming that this occurred on the

19 21st of January, or perhaps the 22nd, but on the 21st

20 of January. That is why I asked you whether you knew

21 which day in the week it was.

22 A. I don't know which day in the week, but I

23 know it was the 20th. I wouldn't know if it was the

24 20th either, if I didn't know that Cosic was killed on

25 the 21st. He was killed that night, actually, and we

Page 14024

1 learnt about that the next day, the 21st.

2 Q. So you are positive that it was not on the

3 21st?

4 A. It was on the 20th.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If that's a convenient

6 moment, we'll adjourn now for half an hour.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.39 a.m.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

11 before the break, I put to the Witness our idea as to

12 what happened on that particular occasion, but I forgot

13 about one detail and, if I may, I should like to go

14 back to that.

15 Q. Witness AE, can we resume where I put to you

16 the discrepancies between your claims and ours. Just

17 one thing. You said that Mr. Kordic was sitting in the

18 co-driver's place, but Mr. Kordic never said in the

19 front, he was always in the back, he was always in the

20 rear seat. So are you quite sure he was in the front

21 seat, next to the driver?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Very well. We can move on. We are still

24 talking about this incident which happened on the 20th

25 of January, 1993. You will agree with me that you told

Page 14025

1 the investigator that subsequently you heard that

2 Blaskic and Kostroman were in other vehicles there.

3 A. Yes, I said there were rumours to that

4 effect.

5 Q. But you did not recognise them.

6 A. No, I did not because I did not know those

7 people.

8 Q. Today you told us that the first person who

9 told you that Miralem Delija's brother had been killed

10 was your Battalion Commander.

11 A. No. No, he was not my Commander. He was a

12 Battalion Commander and we were from the 333rd

13 Brigade.

14 Q. Right. But I didn't remember his name. What

15 was his name?

16 A. Ernest.

17 Q. And he told you about that a day later.

18 A. The next day.

19 Q. Could you please be more precise. How did

20 you work during those days, I mean, about shifts?

21 Let's begin with the 20th of January, 1993. Which

22 shift were you on?

23 A. I worked from morning to nightfall.

24 Q. So it was during daytime. And the next day,

25 the 21st?

Page 14026

1 A. Likewise.

2 Q. And onward?

3 A. The same.

4 Q. And that is how you worked the whole week

5 until the beginning of the conflict, all the days?

6 A. There was no checkpoint at the beginning of

7 the conflict. I don't know whether it was the 25th,

8 but there was no checkpoint. It could have been the

9 23rd or something like that when we left the

10 checkpoint, but we were there side by side with the

11 Military Police, and the Military Police was right side

12 by side with us.

13 Q. Excuse me. I don't understand. What does

14 that mean, that your reconnaissance sabotage platoon

15 kept that point only for two days?

16 A. Two days or perhaps five days.

17 Q. And then after five days, you were joined by

18 the Military Police?

19 A. Yes, or, rather, we joined the Military

20 Police.

21 Q. Very well. So on the 24th of January, 1993,

22 who manned the checkpoint?

23 A. The police -- no, nobody. On the 24th,

24 nobody was there on the road.

25 Q. Today you told us about what you knew about

Page 14027

1 the events of the 24th of January, 1993, when you say

2 that Ivica Petrovic was killed. Do you know what day

3 of the week it was?

4 A. No, I don't, not really.

5 Q. Today you described to us how he was killed.

6 Were you an eyewitness to that incident?

7 A. You mean, did I see that?

8 Q. Did you watch directly what was going on?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How far away were you, and where did the fire

11 take place, the gunfire take place, exactly?

12 A. I don't know how to explain it to you.

13 Q. Well, you had positions by the side of the

14 road, on both sides.

15 A. Yes. We were on the right-hand side as you

16 walked -- as you face Busovaca, in the meadow, several

17 of us, and several of us were at the checkpoint where,

18 as I said, UNPROFOR was trying to pass through and go

19 to the barracks.

20 Q. You are telling us about the 24th or the 25th

21 of January?

22 A. The 24th or the 25th, when the conflict broke

23 out. The 25th, I think.

24 Q. Right. But I'm asking you to be more

25 accurate. Will you please think about it, because I

Page 14028

1 want to discuss two events with you. One of them

2 happened on the 24th and you're telling us that the

3 second one took place on the 25th. So will you please

4 think about it. We're now talking about the incident

5 when Ivica Petrovic got killed, and that happened on

6 the 24th of January, 1993.

7 A. Excuse me?

8 Q. Around three -- twenty minutes past three in

9 the afternoon.

10 A. I don't know what time it was.

11 Q. So that is the incident that I'm interested

12 in. Were you an eyewitness to that particular

13 incident?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If I understand you well that there were no

16 more roadblocks on that road, does that mean that

17 Petrovic opened fire out of the blue?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then somebody fired a Zolja, a hand-held

20 launcher?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You said that there was another civilian and

23 you said it was one Srecko.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that he was released and survived.

Page 14029

1 A. No, he was not released. He simply escaped

2 from the car and then our men escorted him to

3 Busovaca.

4 Q. So you are claiming that he left the scene of

5 the event alive.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And with Ivica Petrovic, Igor Bogdanovic was

8 also killed in that same place during that critical

9 incident?

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not

11 get the answer of the witness.

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Are you sure

13 about that? Your Honour, you see that we disagree with

14 the witness, and we shall also prove that Igor

15 Bogdanovic was killed on that same occasion, and I can

16 put it to the witness once again, if need be.

17 JUDGE MAY: No, I think we can go on. Is

18 there anything else?

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And then let us move onto the next day, to

21 the 25th. You said that incident took place when

22 UNPROFOR vehicles were involved. And you said, on the

23 25th of January, 1993, you blocked the passage to

24 UNPROFOR vehicles which wanted to go to the barracks at

25 this silo?

Page 14030

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us what time was it, or what

3 part of the day was it?

4 A. It was after 12.

5 Q. And in Busovaca and in that area, had the

6 conflict already begun by that time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You are saying what?

9 A. No, the conflict broke out that day.

10 Q. Yes. But that day in the morning, early in

11 the morning, on the 25th.

12 A. In Kacuni it broke out on the 25th, when the

13 armoured vehicle came up to Kacuni and opened fire on

14 us, and that is when we started firing and that is when

15 the front lines were established.

16 Q. Your statement, item 16, you said, "On the

17 25th of January, 1993, I was at the checkpoint when the

18 conflict in Busovaca broke out." And then you describe

19 how you intercepted Charlie. From this I conclude that

20 a conflict in Busovaca had already begun.

21 A. Listen, the conflict in Busovaca never really

22 started. There was no conflict in Busovaca. They

23 merely disarmed people. And that is what happened

24 there.

25 Q. Tell us, please, how many men were there at

Page 14031

1 the checkpoint when UNPROFOR vehicles were stopped?

2 A. I don't know. There were quite a number of

3 us.

4 Q. Quite a number. I see. And you used your

5 weapons to stop the vehicle from moving on to the

6 barracks?

7 A. No, first without weapons. I mean, we had

8 weapons over our shoulders, but they wanted to go

9 through, and then we were issued the order to stop them

10 by hook or by crook.

11 Q. And that is when you used weapons?

12 A. Yes, but we never fired them.

13 Q. Oh, you did not fire.

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you stopped that Charlie, or whatever his

16 nickname was, and let him through without ever stopping

17 them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But why did you let him through if, first,

20 you saw him in the vehicle on the 20th, and meanwhile

21 you had already heard that Miralem Delija's brother had

22 been killed?

23 A. I don't really know why, and I am still sorry

24 that I let him through. I'm still sorry today that I

25 let him through.

Page 14032

1 Q. I asked you today, before the break, that is

2 I mentioned the name of several persons who were public

3 figures, who appeared on television, so on and so

4 forth, and you told us that before January you had

5 never seen Blaskic on television, and Kostroman, that

6 you also never saw him on television before that.

7 A. No, not to this day. Kostroman, I don't know

8 Kostroman to this day.

9 Q. So you never watched those press conferences

10 that were transmitted, that were broadcast?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And the only person that you knew was

13 Mr. Kordic, you told us?

14 A. [Nod]

15 Q. Where do you know him from?

16 A. From the media. And I knew him well. I just

17 knew him.

18 Q. You knew him as what?

19 A. Only by following the newspapers.

20 Q. You mean you were not politically active; is

21 that what you mean?

22 A. [Nod]

23 Q. Your answer was "yes," wasn't it? I said:

24 You were not politically active, were you?

25 A. No, I wasn't.

Page 14033

1 Q. And we are coming to the end, and this could

2 be my last question. Will you tell us, please, you

3 said that today that you were writing the vehicles and

4 names of persons in a book that you kept at the

5 checkpoint, and then this book of record was turned

6 over to the Commander of your reconnaissance unit or to

7 the commander of the 333rd Brigade?

8 A. Miralem carried it with him, but whether he

9 handed it over, I just don't know. As I said, he was

10 the Commander and he was responsible.

11 Q. Yes. Yes. But as you were there officially,

12 and not privately, who was the records to be turned

13 over to, to the Commander of the Brigade or the --

14 A. The Brigade, I guess.

15 Q. So, if I understand you well, the Commander

16 of the 333rd Brigade should have this record?

17 A. Yes, if it was handed over.

18 Q. Tell me, please, while you were on the shift

19 during those several days, who put the vehicles and

20 names of persons in that book? Did you do that?

21 A. I did that on two or three occasions,

22 perhaps, and others. Each one of us did it, depending

23 on who was at the desk.

24 Q. You mean all of them? You also mean those

25 four of you who were there on that day?

Page 14034

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And now my last question. Did you ever meet

3 Mr. Kordic personally, anywhere else personally?

4 A. Yes, but it was from a distance. You know,

5 it was when you happened to glimpse Kordic. Well, on

6 one occasion I saw Kordic get out of a vehicle in

7 Busovaca.

8 Q. Was it before or after this?

9 A. No, before.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

11 I have no more questions. Thank you very much for the

12 patience, and thank you, Witness, for your answers.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Witness AE. You can see me,

15 but because of the protection measures, I can't see

16 you. But I am Goran Mikulicic, a lawyer representing

17 Mr. Mario Cerkez. I shall be very brief. And allow me

18 to ask you only a few questions.

19 Witness AE, you told us you were a member of

20 the 333rd Mountain Brigade, that is reconnaissance

21 sabotage unit. What was the strength of your unit

22 between January and April 1993?

23 A. Thirty men.

24 Q. You told us that for a while you were on duty

25 at the checkpoint in Kacuni, but that was not your

Page 14035

1 principal task, the principal task of your platoon, was

2 it?

3 A. Yes, at that time.

4 Q. I beg your pardon?

5 A. It was at that time.

6 Q. But at other periods of time, between January

7 and April, 1993, what was the task of your unit,

8 roughly speaking?

9 A. Must I answer this question?

10 Q. Well, if you think you might be violating a

11 military secret, then you don't have to, but otherwise

12 I think you do. I think you must.

13 A. I mean, if you come from Bosnia, you know

14 what was -- what is the task of reconnaissance sabotage

15 platoons. You must know what reconnaissance sabotage

16 units did.

17 Q. I'm not from Bosnia, nor are the honourable

18 members of the Court from Bosnia, so will you please

19 tell us what this term means?

20 A. Well, I think that the name itself is

21 self-telling, is telling enough. It is reconnaissance

22 and sabotage.

23 Q. Right. I may be, therefore, properly

24 guessing, but I am not a professional. The task of

25 this platoon is to make rounds of the area, which is

Page 14036

1 within the area of responsibility of the Brigade it

2 belongs to, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know if during this period of time

5 that we are referring to, that is between January and

6 April, 1993, what was the strength of the 333rd

7 Mountain Brigade?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. You wouldn't know even the approximate

10 number. I'm not asking you the exact number of men,

11 but you wouldn't have the approximate strength?

12 A. Well, it had three battalions, plus units

13 attached to the Brigade.

14 Q. Would it be around 1,400 men?

15 A. Less.

16 Q. What do you mean?

17 A. Well, about 500 or 600 men less.

18 Q. Witness AE, you said that you did rounds of

19 the area. Could you tell us, what positions did the

20 333rd Mountain Brigade hold in the municipality of

21 Busovaca? Again, roughly which locations would that

22 be?

23 A. Around Busovaca, the 333rd, plus a part of

24 the 7th Muslim. Sead Sljivar was their Commander and

25 it had its headquarters in Kacuni and was an autonomous

Page 14037

1 unit, it wasn't part of the Brigade.

2 Q. I see. And the 333rd, and you were its

3 member, did it hold some positions in the Vitez

4 municipality?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did it hold some positions in the Novi

7 Travnik municipality or Travnik municipality?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So, Witness AE, you're claiming that your

10 Brigade, the 333rd Mountain Brigade, held positions

11 only in the territory of Busovaca municipality; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Witness AE, do you know

15 Mr. Mario Cerkez? Have you ever seen him?

16 A. No.

17 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

18 the Defence has no further questions.

19 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

20 MR. NICE: A couple of matters arising.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

22 Q. Did you connect the killing of Delija to the

23 incident at the checkpoint that had happened?

24 MR. STEIN: May it please the Court. I

25 object to that question. It would be pure

Page 14038

1 speculation.

2 MR. NICE: It has to do --

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I think that's probably

4 right.

5 MR. NICE: With respect, no. The position --

6 JUDGE MAY: No, I don't think it's going to

7 help us to know his thought processes on the issue.

8 MR. NICE: Well, he's been challenged as to

9 the identification of the person, and one's thought

10 processes can, indeed, highlight or otherwise diminish

11 a recollection at the time. If something is thought to

12 be significant, it may well be in your memory and stay

13 in your memory from then on.

14 JUDGE MAY: It's fairly obvious.

15 MR. NICE: Very well. I'll move on to the

16 only other point I want to raise.

17 Q. The 24th of January incident where one person

18 was killed, how many vehicles altogether were

19 involved? How many vehicles arrived at the checkpoint?

20 A. On the 24th of January?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. One vehicle.

23 Q. How many people in that vehicle?

24 A. Two men.

25 Q. What happened to the vehicle itself?

Page 14039

1 A. A Zolja was fired at it. The vehicle was

2 there, but a dead man was in it, the driver, and I've

3 already said twice that there was no other person in

4 the vehicle.

5 Q. And the other man left on foot?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was there firing at your checkpoint by the

8 people in the car or not?

9 A. Yes. I said that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. NICE: That's all I need to confirm.

12 JUDGE MAY: Witness AE, that concludes your

13 evidence and you are now released. Thank you for

14 coming to the International Tribunal to give your

15 evidence.

16 MR. NICE: While the courtroom is being

17 prepared for the departure of this particular Witness,

18 Mr. Lopez-Terres is taking the next Witness and there's

19 an application for protection in respect of that

20 witness, and I'll ask Mr. Lopez-Terres to deal with it

21 and I shall withdraw briefly.

22 The third Witness, Mr. Beese, is here today.

23 If possible, it would be nice for him to be released

24 this afternoon so that he can fly back this evening. I

25 may have one other thing to say about him before

Page 14040

1 lunchtime, but I'll hand it over to Mr. Lopez-Terres.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE MAY: We have just been handed the

5 application, Mr. Lopez-Terres. It's an application

6 relating to pseudonym and face distortion, and we can

7 see in paragraph 2 of the application the reason that

8 it's made, due to his current residence, really.

9 I turn to the Defence. Is there any

10 objection to this application?

11 MR. SAYERS: Not from Mr. Kordic's Defence,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic?

14 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll grant the application

16 and the terms outlined.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this

18 Witness will be Witness AF.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the Witness take the

21 declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

24 truth.

25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: Could the usher show the

Page 14041

1 Witness a document with his name written on it so that

2 he can recognise it.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the Witness nodded his

4 head.

5 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

6 Mr. President, would it be possible for this hearing to

7 have a private session to begin with, to verify certain

8 identification issues with the Witness.


10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 14042

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, the village where you are living,

6 the village of Tulica to which you returned recently,

7 is a village that had about 78 houses and a population

8 of about 350 in 1992.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This population was exclusively of Muslim

11 ethnicity.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You have provided to our investigators a

14 sketch indicating the position of those houses and the

15 names of the families living in them, and I should like

16 that document to be shown to you as you will be

17 referring to it as we continue.

18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] There are

19 several documents that are going to be used during the

20 testimony of this witness.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the document be

22 placed on the ELMO, please.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness AF, do you recognise this sketch,

25 with the houses indicated, as the one that you provided

Page 14043

1 to the investigator?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, if the witness

4 is going to refer to it, the interpreters are asking

5 that it goes on the ELMO.

6 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Under the

7 reservation that the name of the witness appears on the

8 document. It has been signed by the witness at the

9 bottom of the page.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, let us deal with it without

11 putting it on the ELMO, but do it as quickly as you

12 can, please, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

13 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

14 Q. This document consists of two pages. On one

15 part is the lower part of the village and, on the other

16 part, the upper part of the village; is it not?

17 A. Yes. Because of the size of the paper, I

18 couldn't draw it all on one sheet of paper, so I had to

19 continue on to the next sheet, which is in fact one and

20 the same.

21 Q. And you also provided a list of the owners of

22 those houses, a list attached to this document?

23 A. Yes, with the numbers indicated of the owners

24 of the houses.

25 Q. And this document is Z2104.3.

Page 14044

1 Witness, the village of Tulica is situated

2 about 16 kilometres from Kiseljak?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in the course of your testimony you are

5 going to refer to several localities, or places, and I

6 should like to show you another document so that the

7 Chamber can check the geographic area in which Tulica

8 is situated. So could it be shown to the witness, a

9 map marked Z1891.2.

10 Very well. You have told us that the village

11 of Tulica was a village inhabited exclusively by

12 Muslims, situated south of Kiseljak. This village was

13 surrounded partly by almost exclusively Croat villages,

14 such as Azapovici, Homolj, Kulijes, Lepenica?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And there were also a few hamlets inhabited

17 by Serbs near Tulica, and those were Rudnik and

18 Ostrik. In the course of 1992, and especially in June,

19 1992, after the outbreak of the war with the Serbs, the

20 area of Tulica found itself on the front line with the

21 Serbs, and the villages were occasionally shelled by

22 Serb artillery; is that right?

23 A. Yes. Yes. From Vela, Vocnjak, and Cilena,

24 it is not marked on the map. It is to the right of the

25 map, the positions from where the firing came. Then

Page 14045

1 also Bare, the municipality of Hadzici, and we also

2 said that Vocnjak is not marked on this map. Vela,

3 Rudnik and Ostrik also. Rudnik, Ostrik, those are Serb

4 positions there. At Ostrik, that was where the front

5 line was. The Serb front lines were at Ostrik.

6 Q. To complete the discussion regarding

7 localities, I should like to show you a final document

8 which indicates the front lines between the different

9 combatants, and this is Exhibit Z2097. Can you see

10 Tulica on this map, witness?

11 A. Tulica.

12 Q. At the very edge where the areas of

13 responsibility of Republika Srpska and the BiH Army

14 meet, does this correspond to the reality as you knew

15 it in 1993?

16 A. Yes, it does correspond to the real

17 situation. Tulica is here, within the area under the

18 control of the HVO [indicates]. The Army of Republika

19 Srpska looking towards Kiseljak to the right, the Army

20 of Bosnia-Herzegovina were at Koscan, and also around

21 Bihac, down here. Those were the areas under the

22 control of the BiH Army.

23 Q. Thank you. Due to the hostilities with the

24 Serbs and the shelling, some women and children of the

25 village left Tulica, and they left to go to Slovenia

Page 14046

1 for a while?

2 A. Yes, in 1992, after the first heavy shelling,

3 the women and children fled to Slovenia. Four months

4 later they returned, because of the conditions they

5 were provided in collective shelters in Slovenia and

6 because of the separation of families.

7 Q. Could we say that in June, 1993, the

8 population of the village, which used to be 350, was

9 reduced to about 250?

10 A. Yes. The people who had family members in

11 Germany, Austria or Sweden, went from Slovenia to those

12 countries, whereas the others, who didn't have people

13 abroad, returned. So about 250 were there on the 12th

14 of June, 1993.

15 Q. Among men of military age in the village,

16 some had left the village to be deployed in other areas

17 under BiH Army control?

18 A. Yes, the younger, able-bodied men left to

19 join the BiH Army and other units around Sarajevo,

20 Pazarici, Koscan, and other units that had been formed

21 at that time. So that they would occasionally come

22 home on leave, until the 12th of June, 1993, when the

23 village was attacked.

24 Q. Were there any military units or military

25 installations in the village of Tulica?

Page 14047

1 A. There were absolutely no military units in

2 Tulica, except for the soldiers who would come

3 occasionally on leave from their units. There were no

4 military units in the village. It was inhabited by

5 exclusively civilian population.

6 Q. What type of weapons did the villagers have

7 in their possession?

8 A. They had only personal weapons and hunting

9 weapons; hunting rifles and pistols with appropriate

10 permits to carry such weapons.

11 Q. There was no artillery piece or a heavy

12 weapon of a high calibre?

13 A. No, there was never any artillery pieces.

14 There were only a few automatic rifles, two or three of

15 them, which the reservists had when the police was

16 divided up, and then the guards, village guards, were

17 given these hunting weapons and pistols.

18 Q. You indicated, on the map a moment ago, where

19 the front lines were between the three belligerent

20 parties. As regards the Serbs and the HVO soldiers in

21 the area, were you able to note that there was an

22 agreement between these two factions and relatively

23 friendly relations between them?

24 A. Yes, because they were all in one line. For

25 instance, at Kobiljaca were the Serbs; Batalovo Brdo,

Page 14048

1 again Serbs; the Pljesevac hill was held by Croats;

2 Ravne, Croats; Ostrik, Serbs. All this is in a

3 straight line. And they co-operated. And from

4 Kobiljaca, this is the meeting point of three

5 municipalities: Kiseljak, Ilidza, and Hadzici, and

6 then a border line was cut through the woods of some 10

7 metres across the hill of Pljesevac towards Kobiljaca.

8 Q. As far as you know, the Serbs and the HVO

9 soldiers in the area, did they ever fight against one

10 another?

11 A. Never in that area, because they visited one

12 another across the front lines, because they were in

13 contact with each other, and they even built joint

14 positions. The Croats participated in the

15 transportation of materials along paths where it was

16 difficult to pass, and there was a lot of smuggling of

17 cigarettes and alcohol and other products, and they

18 held positions jointly.

19 Q. In your opinion, could one say that there was

20 a non-aggression pact between the Croats and the Serbs

21 of the region?

22 A. We are not aware of any kind of pact, but

23 judging by this behaviour, we believed that there was.

24 Q. On the 12th of June, 1993, Witness, it was a

25 Saturday, just before 12, the village was shelled

Page 14049

1 for more than three hours?

2 A. Yes. The first shell fell on the village of

3 Tulica, on the 12th of June, 1993, on a Saturday, at

4 about ten to 12 in the morning. That was when the

5 first shell was fired. Then, some ten minutes later,

6 heavy shelling started from all artillery pieces on the

7 village of Tulica, and this went on for three and a

8 half hours non-stop. This was very heavy shelling.

9 Q. On the basis of your experience, you were

10 able to establish the calibre of these pieces and

11 especially the 120-, 82-, and 60-millimetre shells?

12 A. Yes. In view of the fact that when Serbs

13 were attacking positions at Koscan, those shells would

14 fly over our village. So judging by the detonations,

15 since we were in the village for some time until the

16 12th of June, we could recognise the calibre of the

17 weapons used to shell the village.

18 Q. In the course of your military service, you

19 gained some experience yourself regarding the calibre

20 of guns and shells.

21 A. Yes. I served in the former Yugoslav

22 People's Army; I was in the transportation service, a

23 driver, so that I knew howitzers. For instance, of

24 122-, 155-millimetres, I would transport them to

25 positions where military exercises were being held,

Page 14050

1 shooting exercises, using this kind of weapons.

2 Q. And the shelling you are telling us about

3 took place at the end of the morning on the 12th of

4 June, 1993, and there was no doubt in your mind that it

5 came from Serb positions in the area.

6 A. Yes, most probably from Serb positions. This

7 may have been a kind of trick so that we would believe

8 that the Serbs were attacking. Later on we heard that

9 the Serbs had been paid to shell the village.

10 Q. And those Serb positions that you are

11 referring to are those that you showed us on the map a

12 moment ago.

13 A. Bare, Batolovo Brdo, Vela, Rudnik.

14 Q. Very well. So you also had information that

15 it was the HVO that had participated in the shelling

16 from their positions at Cubren that they also had

17 shelled.

18 A. I couldn't notice this in view of the

19 position I was in at the time, because of these

20 numerous detonations, but I heard this from my

21 neighbours who were closer by, in Lepenica, and they

22 said that some of the fire had come from above

23 Brkovici, the hill of Cubren, that mortar shells had

24 been fired from those mortar positions there.

25 Q. Until that day, you experienced only

Page 14051

1 artillery attacks, and by that time, there were no

2 infantry attacks, were there?

3 A. No. At that moment, we did not expect them,

4 although we were not quite clear because this was the

5 first time that it was happening in a year, to have

6 such heavy shelling which was destroying the village.

7 Q. At the end of those three or three and a half

8 hours of shelling, you saw the soldiers enter the

9 village, and these soldiers were coming from different

10 directions.

11 A. Yes. Well, soldiers were arriving from Ban

12 Brdo, that is, from Cuprija, they were accommodated

13 there, and then they were deployed from the hill of

14 Ostrik, or, rather, below Ostrik, and then down in six

15 groups, as the village is 1.2 kilometres long. So they

16 entered in about some six or seven groups, the soldiers

17 entered the village after the shelling and covered,

18 with their infantry, the whole of the village.

19 Q. The villagers, at the beginning of this

20 attack, they thought that this was a Serb attack,

21 didn't they?

22 A. Yes. Since the men were taking shelter

23 during the shelling in that house, in this first house,

24 one could hear the house cracking because fire was put

25 to them, and I thought it was the shelling which set

Page 14052

1 the house on fire. However, he ran to that house with

2 the owner of the house to try to put the fire out.

3 However, they came across a group of some eight or ten

4 soldiers, that is what they told us, wearing black

5 uniforms, with masks over their faces, who shouted

6 "Halt," to stop and to surrender.

7 However, this man who had just left me, he

8 managed to escape and the owner, Safet Katkic, the

9 owner of that house which was burning, which was the

10 closest to Ostrik, to Serb positions, he was arrested

11 and killed later on. We were told, in view of the

12 vicinity or the closeness of Serb positions, he said,

13 "Well, Chetniks have entered the village and are

14 torching the village, so get away. You must all seek

15 shelter."

16 Q. However, you realised subsequently that those

17 were HVO soldiers.

18 A. Yes. After a while, after we had pulled out

19 from the village at the place where I had found refuge,

20 I was controlling a side from Donji Azapovici, that is,

21 from the locality of Glavica and Donji Azapovici, where

22 trenches had been dug, and there I saw a group of

23 soldiers, ten soldiers, approaching the lower part of

24 Tulica. Then it dawned upon me that it was an HVO

25 attack because there were no Serb soldiers at that

Page 14053

1 particular place.

2 Q. During the attack, before we come to various

3 stages of it which you witnessed, you went back to your

4 house, and your brother also, to get your weapons.

5 Could you please tell us, what kind of weapons did you

6 have?

7 A. Yes. Well, where we were sheltering, as my

8 house was quite nearby, I collected my personal

9 weapons, all that we had, that is, my brother and I,

10 and we went to relatives and we collected those -- we

11 picked up those weapons. Some 30 metres from our house

12 is a mill, a water mill, and four of us got there and

13 we split into two groups, two and two, in order to try

14 to get out to an open area, to a clearing, where the

15 soldiers could see us. They saw my relative and me and

16 opened fire on us. However, neither of us was hit and

17 we made it to the woods, and from there we observed

18 what was going on in Tulica and further developments;

19 that is, the torching and all the rest, the arrest of

20 people, and then killing later on.

21 Q. Yes, we shall come to that a bit later. But

22 those weapons, those weapons which you and your brother

23 picked up, did you have an opportunity to use them that

24 day?

25 A. Yes -- no, no. No, we did not use any of

Page 14054

1 them because it would have meant an additional burden

2 because people would suffer more. Had anyone used any

3 weapon, then the butchery might have been even worse

4 than it actually was.

5 Q. You have just told us, you commented that

6 soldiers fired at houses with incendiaries, didn't

7 they? And you saw Muhamed Huseinovic's stable which

8 was also torched.

9 A. There are some four or five houses near the

10 forest, a bit away from the village, so perhaps they

11 did not dare because somebody might have fired from the

12 forest or something. So they dared not approach those

13 houses and set fire to them themselves, and they rather

14 used incendiaries. Muhamed Huseinovic's stable was

15 thus put on fire and a cow and a calf burnt in it.

16 Q. During the attack, you could hear soldiers

17 singing and shouting insults.

18 A. Yes. All the time as they were torching in

19 the upper part of the village, they were singing

20 because they had no reason to fear any resistance of

21 the villagers, because they had arrested everybody and

22 separated men from women and children. So they were

23 singing, and they were singing, "The two brothers of us

24 who are both waging war. Do not cry, Mother, if we get

25 killed," and they also insulted particularly --

Page 14055

1 particularly hurling insults at the presidency of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, saying, "Balijas, you will remember

3 us" and similar insults.

4 Q. From that place where you were sheltering

5 with your brother in the forest, you were able to see

6 what was going on in the vicinity of the cemetery and

7 in the lower part of the village, and you could see

8 soldiers who were breaking into houses and forcing the

9 villagers to get out, and then making the move towards

10 the cemetery.

11 A. Yes. So during the torching, at the same

12 time, they were also arresting people who were there

13 after the shelling, the people who were working in the

14 fields, because it was the 12th of June, a very fine

15 summer day, sunny. So people were working in the

16 fields, and after the shelling, those people started to

17 go home and there they were arrested. Those people who

18 were in the village during the shelling could not leave

19 the village because of the intensity of the shelling.

20 So they were arresting all whom were alive, whom they

21 could find, and they were taken to the cemetery, and by

22 the cemetery, they separated women and children and

23 took them down the road, I could not see where; I saw

24 where the women were about half an hour later. And now

25 I could see the cemetery where men were being rounded

Page 14056

1 up from the upper and the lower part of the village and

2 brought there, next to the cemetery.

3 Q. And you saw what happened to the group of

4 men. As for women, some of them, later on, you told us

5 what happened to them. Could you please tell us, in a

6 few words, what you saw.

7 A. Yes. People were brought to this cemetery

8 and were lined up. From the place where I was, they

9 had their backs to me. That is how they were turned so

10 they could not see what was happening behind their

11 backs. So that was next to Huseinovic's house. So

12 some 35 of them were lined up, and then they would be

13 taken out and some would be singled out from that group

14 of 35 who had their backs to me, and ill-treatment

15 started, that is, physical harassment began, next to

16 the cemetery. They took out Zijad Huseinovic, Aziz

17 Huseinovic, Casim Huseinovic, Safet Haskic, Refik

18 Huseinovic, Ahmed Bajraktarevic, and Mufid Tulic. That

19 is all those who were killed right next to the cemetery

20 and who had been taken out of that line. They were

21 singled out from that line, ill-treated, and then

22 killed.

23 Q. Some of them were battered before they were

24 killed on the spot; that is what happened to Kasim

25 Huseinovic, isn't it?

Page 14057

1 A. Yes, Kasim Huseinovic, that man was subjected

2 to the worst harassment of all of them, because they

3 used rifle butts. There was three soldiers and then

4 more soldiers in black uniforms joined them to beat him

5 with their rifle butts, in the chest, on the head. He

6 fell down on the road, then they would kick him and

7 then again force him to stand up. And so in that group

8 between them he experienced the worst ill-treatment of

9 all of them.

10 Q. Aziz Huseinovic, whom you mentioned before,

11 he was executed. He was also wounded in the leg,

12 wasn't he?

13 A. Yes, Aziz was first singled out. And a

14 soldier in a baseball cap with this yellow, what you

15 call it, this shield for some protection, he fired at

16 his leg and wounded him. And I saw Aziz fall down on

17 one leg and then sat on the grass and took his T-shirt

18 to bind the wound, to stop the bleeding. After that,

19 this soldier made a few steps away from Aziz, fired at

20 him and killed him right there next to the cemetery.

21 Q. You also saw some other men, you gave us

22 their name, being forced to run down a slope, which was

23 near the cemetery, and then they were hit as they were

24 running down that slope.

25 A. Yes, quite. It is a clearing which from the

Page 14058

1 cemetery you run down to a stream, and there was grass

2 about half a metre tall. And there they took

3 Safet Katkic, Refik Huseinovic and, in the same way,

4 all of them, Aziz and what's his name, Mufid Tulic,

5 Ahmed Bajraktarevic, and all in the same way. They

6 would take out men, tell them to go down that slope,

7 the man starts down it, and they fire at the back. And

8 then the man rolls down that slope because it was quite

9 a steep slope. And so four of them were killed in an

10 identical way.

11 Q. You described to us the men who killed those

12 men. You particularly remember that one of them was

13 wearing a black leather jacket, and whose nickname was

14 Pijuk?

15 A. Yes, we heard that later, after those --

16 after those were killed, the rest of the arrested were

17 taken to the barracks at Kiseljak, and they were

18 exchanged three days later, and for ten of them. And

19 they told us, because those guys who were arrested,

20 they knew them. They used to socialise before the war

21 in Kiseljak. And they knew Pijuk and the nickname --

22 somebody who was nicknamed Crnogorac and Montenegrin.

23 And they told us that it was these men. And they were

24 the ones who also killed those four. So he was wearing

25 a black leather jacket, black uniform, sleeveless

Page 14059

1 jacket, and he also had a stocking over his head.

2 Q. And the two other soldiers, the two other

3 soldiers who participated in this, you also mentioned

4 them, and you said their nicknames were Crnogorac and

5 Firga, isn't it?

6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, those who were in the

7 barracks and were subsequently changed, they recognised

8 them and they told us at the place where they were

9 taken -- they were taken to the place where they had

10 been executed and they recognised them.

11 Q. And those soldiers came from Kiseljak, didn't

12 they?

13 A. So all these soldiers -- well, it depended on

14 the place where who was who. I told you all the

15 villages were scattered, but they knew some people, and

16 they were all from Lepenica, from Brnjaci, from

17 Kiseljak, Gromiljak. That is, they all came from

18 there.

19 Q. Do you know what special unit did those men

20 belong to?

21 A. Yes. They were Maturice and Apostoli, the

22 so-called strike units.

23 Q. And during the attack, there were not only

24 the soldiers in black uniforms, there were also wearing

25 camouflage uniforms, weren't there?

Page 14060

1 A. Yes, some were wearing camouflage uniforms.

2 And those must have been the security around the

3 village, in view of the closeness of HVO positions.

4 And down there some soldiers were standing guard. But

5 after the torching and other things like that, then a

6 plunder took place, and those in camouflage uniforms

7 were taking away household appliances and all the rest

8 of the valuable things. They brought in trucks and

9 they took it all out from the village.

10 Q. Did you personally see those scenes of

11 plunder?

12 A. Yes, I saw a few cars. There were a few

13 cars, and a number of lorries, and various household

14 appliances were loaded onto them and other things; how

15 they were loaded onto them and then driven away to

16 Lepenica, or even carts, wheel carts, for instance,

17 that the villagers in Tulica had. They would load a TV

18 set and then similar things, video recorders and such

19 like.

20 Q. This looting, was it done by HVO soldiers or

21 by civilians?

22 A. HVO soldiers. Only HVO soldiers. There were

23 no civilians. It used to be a Bosniak village, so

24 there were no other people there. After we had left,

25 we do not know what was going on there and what

Page 14061

1 happened there. I don't know after we fled, and that

2 was two or three days later, we do not know what came

3 to pass with other people or other things, other

4 property that had stayed in the houses.

5 Q. You told us that you personally witnessed the

6 death of seven villagers, and you were told also that

7 an eighth villager was killed, and you heard about the

8 circumstances under which that had happened. And you

9 had been told that by women from the village?

10 A. Yes. After we left the village of Tulica, we

11 moved to Bukovica with a Muslim majority, and most of

12 the people had left the village of Tulica and got

13 there. And there, because many were coming there from

14 other places, and women -- Fata Bajraktarevic's wife,

15 Safija Bajraktarevic and other women, told me that in

16 front of Arif's house, or rather, where Arif

17 Bajraktarevic used to have his shop, that that was

18 where women had -- had met. And Salko Bajraktarevic

19 had come there, and he was 65 to 70 years of age, and

20 he came there where those women were rounded up, and

21 said, "Come on, men, what are you doing to us?" And

22 they told him, "Shut your mouth, older man, or we will

23 kill you."

24 And he told them, "Well, kill me, if I've

25 wronged you in any way." And this man, that is this

Page 14062

1 HVO soldier in a black uniform, sleeveless, that is a

2 sleeveless leather, black leather jacket, he simply

3 turned his rifle around and fired at the old man and

4 killed him right in front of all those women.

5 And it subsequently turned out that he was

6 the first one to have been killed in the village of

7 Tulica.

8 Q. We are talking about Mr. Salko Bajraktarevic;

9 is that so? Is it correct?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And those same women, those women that you

12 just mentioned, and we already asked you about them,

13 and you told us what had happened in front of Salko

14 Bajraktarevic's house, that they were forced to turn

15 over their belongings to soldiers, to HVO soldiers.

16 Arif Bajraktarevic.

17 A. Yes. Yes. Quite. Yes. The women said

18 those soldiers spread something on the ground, and

19 women who were detained there, who were there, they

20 said all that they had made of gold, that is rings or

21 chains, whatever they had valuable, that they should

22 take it off and throw it onto that rag, onto that cloth

23 that was spread onto the ground. And the women did

24 that, and were taken to Dzemal Huseinovic's house in

25 the village, and locked there. They could not come out

Page 14063

1 until everything else was going on in the village,

2 until the end of the attack on the village. After

3 that, they were released and then they sought refuge

4 elsewhere.

5 Q. To your knowledge, among those eight men who

6 were killed on that day, there were also three women

7 who were killed during the attack on the village,

8 weren't there?

9 A. Yes, but later on, when we had already fled,

10 we were told that Safija Tulic, about 70 years old,

11 that she was burnt alive in her house. Fatima

12 Bajraktarevic, and to this day we do not know what her

13 fate is, she headed off toward Kulijes, and no trace of

14 her. And Sifa Tulic, who also headed off towards

15 Kulijes, she was hit from a distance, and those who

16 were nearer could hear. They said they could hear how

17 she moaned and cried for a long time. And, in all

18 likelihood, she must have been hit, and she bled to

19 death. And she was found later on in a field.

20 Q. And who survived the attack were taken to the

21 barracks in Kiseljak, you told us. And there was a

22 truck which waited there to take them to the barracks?

23 A. Yes, I went to -- across to the other part of

24 the forest, to see what was going on. And they were in

25 front of Ibrahim Jahic's house. There was a truck, a

Page 14064

1 two tonne truck belonging to the public amenity company

2 in Kiseljak. It was waiting there, and other men were

3 waiting there, some 25 of them altogether. And they

4 were put onto that truck and taken first to Lepenica

5 and then to Kiseljak, to the Kiseljak barracks.

6 Q. You just mentioned Ibrahim Jahic. Could you

7 tell us what happened to that particular individual?

8 A. Ibrahim Jahic was arrested there by that

9 house, together with all the others; was taken towards

10 Lepenica in the truck. However, a white Golf with HVO

11 soldiers, I could see how he discarded something out,

12 threw away something from the truck. That man had a

13 lot of money, and that they thought that he'd thrown

14 away that money into the wheat field. And in Lepenica

15 they took Ibrahim Jahic from the truck, ill-treated him

16 there in Lepenica, I mean physically ill-treated him,

17 and put him into that vehicle and turned back to the

18 village of Tulica, and there has been no trace of him

19 ever since.

20 Q. Did you receive any information that

21 Mr. Jahic was killed while he was digging trenches?

22 A. Yes, seven days later all the others were

23 exchanged, I mean the Tulica villages. During that

24 time there was absolutely no trace of Ibrahim Jahic

25 amongst them, that is in the barracks, nor had anybody

Page 14065

1 set eyes on him. But after a while we learnt through

2 an individual that Ibrahim Jahic had been taken to

3 dig. And according to them, in mektef, that is the

4 religious object in Svinjarevo, they found Ibrahim

5 Jahic with documentation in his pocket and his body was

6 decomposing by that time. And that soldier ordered

7 others who were digging to dig their grave two metres

8 from the mektef, and to bury him there. And that is

9 what they did.

10 And when we learnt that, we asked for his

11 exhumation, to give him a proper burial together with

12 others.

13 Q. Before I conclude, Witness AF, I should like

14 to show you a set of photographs, Z2104. Will you

15 please have a look at this album. Could you please

16 tell us if these photographs show the houses destroyed

17 in Tulica?

18 A. Yes. The upper part of the village was

19 damaged, the upper part of the village of Tulica. That

20 was set on fire. And the lower part. And these are

21 mostly newer houses, new development, only Zifet

22 Huseinovic's house was set on fire, and therefore

23 destroyed. And the last shells that hit the village,

24 that fell that day, Saban Bajraktarevic -- hit Saban

25 Bajraktarevic's house. So the houses in the lower part

Page 14066

1 of Tulica, then Croat -- Croat refugees from Vares then

2 moved into those houses which had remained intact in

3 the lower part of the village.

4 Q. Witness, among these photographs, is there a

5 photograph of that religious object that you mentioned,

6 the mektef?

7 A. Yes. Just a moment. Well, this is the

8 picture of mektef.

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no

10 further questions, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, can I just be

12 sure about this. Is it the Prosecution case that 11

13 people were killed in this attack, eight men and three

14 women? That appears to be the evidence, but I want to

15 make sure that's right.

16 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Death

17 certificates were produced together with the Tulica

18 file, Tulica dossier.

19 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now till half past

20 2 for cross-examination then.

21 Witness AF, don't speak to anybody, please,

22 during the adjournment about your evidence, and don't

23 let anybody speak to you about it until it's over.

24 Thank you.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.04 p.m.

Page 14067

1 --- On resuming at 2.37 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

3 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness AF. My name is

6 Stephen Sayers; I'm one of the attorneys representing

7 Dario Kordic. I have about ten minutes of questions

8 for you, sir.

9 First, in connection with the artillery fire

10 that you identified on the early afternoon, I believe

11 you said, of the 12th of June, 1993, you said it came

12 from Serb positions; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you also observed that you had "heard"

15 that the Serbs had somehow been paid to shell your

16 village; is that right, sir?

17 A. Yes. We had the report that it had been paid

18 for.

19 Q. Did you ever see any documentation that

20 verified those reports, receipts or things of that

21 variety, sir?

22 A. No. I wasn't in a position to have access to

23 any kind of documents of that kind.

24 Q. Very well, sir. It's true, is it not, that

25 you never heard any Serb Artillery Commander or soldier

Page 14068

1 contend that the Serb artillery had, in fact, been

2 hired, if you like, by the Croats or the HVO; is that

3 right?

4 A. Individuals were saying that, and these

5 individuals were next to Kobiljaca whose neighbours

6 were Serbs. They heard from a Serb neighbour that this

7 had been paid for, for Tulica to be shelled.

8 Q. But you yourself, Witness AF, you yourself

9 never heard anything of that variety from any Serb

10 soldier or, for that matter, any HVO soldier; is that

11 right?

12 A. We didn't hear it from any Serb soldier

13 because we had no contact, nor did we dare to have any

14 contact because the Army was nearby, and the BH Army

15 was fighting the Serb aggressor. So it was not

16 possible to get in touch with any Serb soldier.

17 Q. All right. You never heard from any HVO

18 soldier that monies had been paid to the Serbs to fire

19 artillery shells or mortar shells onto your village;

20 isn't that right, sir?

21 A. We couldn't because after the attack we never

22 met with Croatian soldiers.

23 Q. Right, sir. All I'm saying is your

24 information on that really comes from the rumour mill

25 in the villages that were in the area of Tulica; isn't

Page 14069

1 that right?

2 A. From rumours, yes, but in view of the

3 co-operation they had, that is, the HVO soldiers and the

4 Serb soldiers, in the area, in this part of the

5 territory, one could infer that there was truth in it.

6 Q. All right, sir. Now, you were shown a series

7 of photographs by the Prosecution, and you identified

8 these as pictures of houses in Tulica. Do you know who

9 took these photographs?

10 A. I don't.

11 Q. And it's true, equally, that you don't know

12 when these photographs were taken; isn't that right?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. There appears to be Agency for Information

15 and Documentation stamps, Muslim Intelligence Agency

16 stamps on the top left-hand corner and the top

17 right-hand corner of each of these. Do you know who

18 put these stamps on here, sir, these AID stamps?

19 A. No, I don't know. I have no idea.

20 Q. In connection with the songs that you heard

21 the soldiers who were attacking Tulica singing, you

22 said in your statement that some Serb name was being

23 shouted and that this name probably was the name of the

24 soldier who was actually shouting the dire threats. Do

25 you recall that, sir?

Page 14070

1 A. In view of the fact that they had entered

2 through the positions of the Serb Army and they would

3 mention a name, this was a trick to the effect, "You

4 will see what so and so is," and all this was meant to

5 give the impression that the Serbs were attacking.

6 Q. All right. That's your conclusion, correct,

7 looking back on the events eight years ago -- seven

8 years ago; is that correct, sir?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, the testimony that you gave in

11 connection with the blanket that was placed on the

12 ground and the valuables that were required to be

13 placed upon that blanket, that testimony is derived

14 from things that you were told by other people; isn't

15 that correct? You didn't actually see the event

16 yourself, did you?

17 A. I didn't see the event because of the

18 position where I was, I couldn't see it. But later on,

19 when we were in exile, all the women who were there

20 confirmed this.

21 Q. You're absolutely right, Witness AF. The

22 only point that I'm making is that your testimony on

23 that subject is really derived from what you were told,

24 not what you saw or heard yourself; isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes, yes. Yes, quite correct. I didn't see

Page 14071

1 that. I couldn't see it.

2 Q. Now, you also gave some testimony about

3 observing people you say were shot by soldiers. How

4 far away from the actual scene where those killings

5 were taking place were you, 200 metres, 300 metres,

6 further than that?

7 A. As the crow flies, and in view of the valley

8 beneath, it is about 150 metres away.

9 Q. Now, in connection with the testimony that

10 you gave relating to the killing of Salko

11 Bajraktarevic -- please forgive my pronunciation -- you

12 did not actually see that yourself, did you?

13 A. No, I didn't because you cannot walk around

14 in a leisurely manner when the HVO had covered the

15 whole village with infantry, and as this house is in

16 the lower part of the village, I couldn't see it.

17 Q. Yes, sir, I take your point precisely, but

18 the only point that I'm trying to establish is that

19 your testimony regarding Mr. Bajraktarevic's killing is

20 based upon what other people told you; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In connection with the three ladies that you

23 have identified as having been killed or having been

24 presumptively killed, with respect to Fatima

25 Bajraktarevic, you really do not know any facts about

Page 14072

1 what happened to her at all, do you?

2 A. I don't know, but in view of the people who

3 went to the Croatian settlement of Kulis, they were

4 either wounded or killed, and that woman went in that

5 direction, and all trace of her was lost. And to this

6 day nobody knows what happened to her.

7 Q. And in connection with the death of Sifa

8 Tulic, you weren't actually there when the events

9 happened? You didn't see them yourself, did you, sir?

10 A. No, I didn't see it. It is on the other side

11 of me, close to the Croatian settlement of Kulis. It

12 is on the other side. But other villagers heard the

13 screaming for some time. And afterwards they found

14 her. She had been wounded in the legs and she probably

15 bled to death.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Sayers, could you speak

17 into the microphone, please.

18 MR. SAYERS: Sorry. This is a little

19 awkward, being the number three man here.

20 Q. But the point I am making with you, Witness

21 AF, is that what you know about the circumstances under

22 which Sifa Tulic died, your knowledge of that is

23 derived from what you were told by other people who

24 were actually there, or may have heard from people who

25 were there; is that correct?

Page 14073

1 A. Yes. Yes. When we were in exile, on the

2 second day, the next day.

3 Q. Okay. My next to last question is concerned

4 with the testimony that you gave relating to Ibrahim

5 Jahic. This is the gentleman who was taken away from

6 Tulica and transported north. And you do not yourself

7 know from your own personal knowledge what happened to

8 him? Your information or conclusions relating to what

9 happened to him are really based upon what other people

10 told you; correct?

11 A. I actually found the information about that

12 man, and I can tell you the name who buried him, Enver

13 Fazlibasic. He was in captivity, held by the HVO in

14 Kiseljak. And he was also taken to dig trenches,

15 facing the positions in Visoko.

16 Q. Excuse me. I understand, Witness AF, but the

17 only point I am making is that what you know about what

18 supposedly happened to Mr. Jahic, is things that you

19 were told by other people; is that right?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And then my final question to you, sir, is

22 after you were able to leave Tulica, after witnessing

23 the events that you've testified about, you actually

24 made your way to the Croat village of Josipovici, and

25 found shelter with a Croat friend of yours who lived

Page 14074

1 there; is that right?

2 A. At first, when we still didn't know exactly

3 who had attacked the village, we fled, and because of

4 the life we used to have, we had many friends there.

5 And we headed towards a Croatian village and where our

6 families had gone to. But a smaller number of families

7 went there. And people took shelter there, while the

8 shooting and torching went on. And that is where I

9 found my family. And from there, there were some 70 or

10 80 of us, women, children and men, we headed on to seek

11 refuge.

12 Q. But you asked for help from your Croat

13 neighbours, and that help was given; correct?

14 A. We didn't ask for help, but my father --

15 JUDGE MAY: Let me just interrupt you. The

16 point is that you stayed with some Croatians; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 MR. SAYERS: That's the end of the questions

20 that I would have for the Witness. Thank you very

21 much, Your Honour.

22 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] A few

23 points of clarification from the Witness.

24 Excuse me, I hadn't heard that Mr. Mikulicic

25 was on his feet. However, as his client has not been

Page 14075

1 charged for the events in Tulica, I thought he would

2 not have any cross-examination.

3 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, that is

4 precisely so, as my learned friend has said, the

5 Defence has no questions, as these are events for which

6 my client has not been charged.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

8 Q. Witness AF, regarding this attack, artillery

9 attack coming from the Serbs sector, you said that you

10 personally have no proof that agreements had been

11 reached between the HVO and the Serbs for the village

12 to be attacked by the Serbs, after being paid for it by

13 the HVO. But, you personally did see and hear that the

14 firing at the village, on the 12th of June, 1993, came

15 mostly from positions where artillery pieces of the

16 Serbs were situated?

17 A. Yes, that is correct. Because we spent a

18 year in the village, and from those same positions,

19 positions of the BiH Army were shelled. And these

20 shells flew over our village. Every time an artillery

21 piece fired from those positions, we could hear it in

22 the village where we were living and working.

23 Q. A second point linked to this attack. Is

24 there any doubt in your mind, witness, that the attacks

25 against the village were committed by the Serbs?

Page 14076

1 A. There were no Serbs, absolutely. It was the

2 HVO troops that attacked the village.

3 Q. My last point regarding the visit you made to

4 a Croatian friend who took you in. I am not asking you

5 to give us the name of that person, but could you

6 quickly and briefly tell us what you heard and saw

7 while you were staying with that friend, when a local

8 HVO Commander came to visit that person?

9 A. Yes. When I found my family, this Croat told

10 me to get into the house as quickly as possible. I

11 did. I took off my shoes in front of the door. The

12 shoes were immediately carried in after me. As soon as

13 I had sat down, a Yugo 45 car, a grey coloured car,

14 arrived. A local Commander was there, Kapetanovic and

15 someone known as Macan, whose name I do not know. He

16 was the local Commander there, together with Zuna,

17 Vlatko Trogrlic. So that this was about five or six

18 metres from the window. And I heard this Croat, who

19 was our host, who went out immediately. And he was

20 asked whether there were any villagers there, any local

21 people from Tulica in his house. He said there were

22 not. There were none. However, this neighbour and

23 relative joined in the conversation; he's a

24 son-in-law. He interrupted this conversation with this

25 Croat, whose house we were in. He said, "What kind of

Page 14077

1 an army are you, when you are shooting at women and

2 children?" And he said, "We are not shooting. We are

3 only shooting those who are resisting."

4 Then this man called Pivac, known as Pivac,

5 said that he can say what he likes, but he cannot deny

6 what this man himself had seen with his own eyes.

7 Then this man got angry, switched on his

8 engine and left in his car towards Lepenica.

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no

10 further questions, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE MAY: Witness AF, that concludes your

12 evidence here. Thank you for coming to the

13 International Tribunal to give it. You are now

14 released.

15 MR. NICE: Before we turn to the next

16 witness, can I invite the Chamber to look at the

17 summary of Mr. Beese's evidence that you should, I

18 think, have from previous occasion.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. NICE: The ruling that the Chamber has

21 given is in respect of paragraph 5(b). I am going to

22 ask the Chamber to reconsider the ruling, in light of a

23 particular matter, to deal with simply 5(c). In

24 addition, 5(c) relates to a meeting that the witness

25 had with Kordic on the 5th of May, and the Chamber will

Page 14078

1 remember from the material upon which the witness

2 relies, that he's one of the witnesses, one of the, I

3 think, comparatively small number of witnesses who has

4 and speaks from literally contemporaneous notes. And

5 if you look a couple of pages on in the summary, you'll

6 see the other way around, the very detailed notes of

7 the meeting he had with Kordic on the 5th of May.

8 Now, you will remember the shape of the

9 argument --

10 JUDGE MAY: Are we in open session or -- we

11 are. Yes.

12 MR. NICE: The Court will remember the shape

13 of the argument about Mr. Beese's evidence generally,

14 and the fact that it was in two different types,

15 material that was new, and material that was commentary

16 and general conclusions, which the Chamber excluded.

17 And the Chamber may recall that His Honour Judge

18 Bennouna interrupted my argument at one stage and said,

19 "Well, are you telling me that in relation to the 28th

20 of April, this is new matter?" I said that I was. And

21 then the Chamber conferred and said, "Well, you can

22 have the new matter," which was paragraph 5(b).

23 Now, as to paragraph 5(c), what had been said

24 by Mr. Sayers was that the meeting on the 5th of May

25 was one at which Witness AA had already -- was also in

Page 14079

1 attendance. That can be found on page 13,255, where he

2 said, apparently, Witness AA was present at that

3 meeting.

4 Now, I wasn't in a position then to check on

5 that detail, and assume that what he said was

6 accurate. In fact, as I've confirmed with the witness

7 this morning, the meeting on the 5th of May was a

8 meeting involving three European Community Ambassadors,

9 so those are simply not witnesses we have called, or

10 have ever been anywhere near calling, saving the most

11 exceptional circumstances. As the Chamber already

12 knows, witnesses at that grade don't come in. One or

13 two may have done, but it's very much the exception.

14 And he, the witness, was the only other person present

15 at that meeting, apart from an interpreter.

16 It's also the case that he, simply having

17 introduced the ambassadors, sat there and talked. The

18 contemporaneous notes which I've already drawn to your

19 attention, they are very detailed and simply record

20 what was being said.

21 On the 5th of May, we have had evidence of

22 another meeting that was between Kordic and the witness

23 Payam Akhavan, and the Chamber will recall that there

24 was substantial cross-examination of the general

25 quality and character of Akhavan's evidence generally,

Page 14080

1 and I don't know -- I haven't been able to find the

2 specific challenge to what was said on the 5th of

3 May -- but the Chamber may think that this is an

4 extremely helpful piece of evidence, as accurate as it

5 can conceivably be, assuming the witness is truthful

6 about making contemporaneous notes, and the Chamber

7 will see under 5(c) various things said by the

8 defendant Kordic, and in particular what he said, at

9 Roman VI, VII, and VIII, about Ahmici.

10 It was a misunderstanding when it was

11 suggested that Witness AA was present at the meeting,

12 and these things do happen, but we all proceeded on the

13 basis that that might be correct, it not having been

14 checked and verified, and, of course, this meeting does

15 fall into exactly the same category as the piece of

16 additional evidence that the witness can give in

17 relation to the 28th of April meeting, where, indeed,

18 Witness AA was present but where Witness AA was unable

19 to give us the detail that this witness can. So that

20 5(c), which won't take very long to adduce and, indeed,

21 may not be challenged, 5(c) falls in the same category

22 of new material of a high quality, and I'd ask to be

23 given leave to lead it. I notified my friend Mr. Stein

24 this morning that it was my intention to do so, to seek

25 your leave to do so.

Page 14081

1 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Stein.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, we've considered the

4 matter. We are being asked, effectively, to change our

5 ruling, it being said that it was made under a

6 misapprehension; however, I remember quite well that we

7 were reluctant to make the ruling at all and it was

8 only when it was pointed out that this was an important

9 issue on which you would be entitled to call evidence

10 in rebuttal anyway, that we decided to allow the

11 evidence in. So the answer is no.

12 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases. But as I

13 explained, the matter proceeded on a misunderstanding,

14 not entirely of my creation.

15 May the witness come in.

16 JUDGE MAY: Of course you can call some

17 evidence about who he is and why he was there and that

18 sort of thing.

19 MR. NICE: Certainly.

20 MR. STEIN: May it please the Court. I

21 should always sit down a winner, but I must say that

22 there was no misrepresentation by Mr. Sayers. The

23 record is quite clear what he is referring to and,

24 indeed, the notes, contemporaneous notes, at the first

25 paragraph are consistent with that interpretation.

Page 14082

1 JUDGE MAY: We are not going to adjudicate on

2 that.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

5 declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

8 truth.

9 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat,

10 Mr. Beese.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.


13 Examined by Mr. Nice:

14 Q. Your full name, please.

15 A. Christopher David Beese.

16 Q. Your career, Mr. Beese, was in the army

17 between 1973 and 1977; in insurance, I think, for the

18 next three years; in the Oman Army from 1982 to 1987;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. In security from 1988 to 1992, and working

22 for the ECMM between January and August of 1993.

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Initially, were you stationed in Siroki

25 Brijeg, Herzegovina?

Page 14083

1 A. I was.

2 Q. Were you the head of the coordination centre

3 in Mostar from February or March and until about April

4 of 1993?

5 A. I was.

6 Q. Did you then become the Deputy Head of the

7 Regional Centre in Zenica, reporting to Ambassador

8 Thebault in April of 1993?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. You're here, in fact, for one piece of

11 evidence only, and it relates to an event on the 28th

12 of April of 1993. Do you have some notes in relation

13 to that event?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Do you have them with you? If you would like

16 to open them. We have a page which is headed "Zenica

17 28/4".

18 JUDGE MAY: When you say "we," who has it?

19 MR. NICE: I trust Your Honour has it. I'd

20 been referring a little earlier to the pages at the

21 back of the summary, and I hope that if you turn to the

22 back of the summary, you will find --

23 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. You're quite right.

24 MR. NICE: -- some handwritten documents, as

25 well as some typed documents. It's the first of the

Page 14084

1 handwritten documents, and the witness has the original

2 of it before him.



5 Q. Mr. Beese, tell us a little bit about this

6 event, although there's only one detail of it that we

7 particularly want from you, but just to get the

8 setting. Where was this meeting that is, as we can

9 see, covered by your note of the 28th of April?

10 A. In the Hotel International in central

11 Zenica.

12 Q. Who was present?

13 A. The purpose of the meeting was to hold a

14 discussion between Generals Sefer Halilovic and Milivoj

15 Petkovic, chaired by Ambassador Jean-Pierre Thebault;

16 to discuss activity in connection with the ceasefire

17 agreements that the two parties, the Bosnian Croats and

18 the Bosnian Muslims, had signed; to discuss the

19 following day's agenda.

20 Q. Yes. The setting for this meeting, why were

21 you meeting these people and why do you refer to it, as

22 it were, as "the following day's agenda"?

23 A. Following a meeting in Zagreb between

24 President Tudjman of Croatia and President Ilija

25 Izetbegovic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and their respective

Page 14085

1 Generals, Petkovic and Halilovic, there was an

2 agreement to effect ceasefires throughout Bosnia and to

3 reinstitute freedom of movement and to set up a joint

4 military headquarters, staffed by Officers of the two

5 respective parties.

6 The purpose of the meeting was to discuss how

7 the two military commanders would move about the area

8 the following day; to meet dignitaries, important

9 persons, military, in the region; to ensure that the

10 combatants of each side fully understood the nature of

11 this agreement.

12 Q. You were number two to Ambassador Thebault at

13 this time.

14 A. I had recently arrived from Mostar at

15 Jean-Pierre Thebault's request to take on

16 responsibility as his new Deputy.

17 Q. The notes that we see, when were they made in

18 relation to matters that were happening or being

19 discussed?

20 A. They were made at the time by me as the

21 meeting took place.

22 Q. Within the meeting, who was doing the

23 speaking from your side, you or Ambassador Thebault?

24 A. At this stage, Ambassador Thebault was

25 chairing the meeting.

Page 14086

1 Q. So you were in a position --

2 A. As an observer.

3 Q. -- to listen and observe. We can briskly,

4 then, go through the first half of the meeting.

5 Halilovic says in summary that the Vitez agreement was

6 not violated.

7 A. Sefer Halilovic was explaining that he'd

8 given the orders for the ceasefire to take effect.

9 There was some discussion between the two Commanders as

10 to whether the ceasefires they had agreed were, in

11 fact, taking place. General Petkovic was uncertain

12 that General Halilovic had passed all the orders to his

13 subordinates and quoted specifically that there was

14 still conflict around Busovaca.

15 Q. Yes. And we see that in "Busovaca tells a

16 different story"; is that right?

17 A. Correct. While Sefer Halilovic said that he

18 had passed the orders so that he was fully compliant

19 with the ceasefire agreement, General Petkovic differed

20 and said that events in Busovaca told a different

21 story, that, therefore, perhaps General Halilovic had

22 not passed the orders to all his troops for a

23 ceasefire.

24 Q. We then see an entry that, I think, has

25 Thebault's name beside it; is that right?

Page 14087

1 A. Right.

2 Q. Can you interpret that for us?

3 A. Yes. At the time, while we were discussing

4 the relative merits of each other's ceasefire

5 arrangements, one of our personnel from the

6 communications centre entered the room and spoke with

7 Ambassador Thebault to report an incident at the Kaonik

8 road junction.

9 Q. Described in terms as?

10 A. To the effect that a 40-vehicle humanitarian

11 convoy moving from Travnik to Zenica had been hijacked

12 at the Busovaca junction by HVO troops and that the two

13 escorting UNPROFOR Warrior vehicles had been separated

14 from the humanitarian convoy.

15 Q. Before we move on with what happened, and

16 just again for setting, is this an interference with a

17 convoy that led to any firing of guns and so on and any

18 loss of life, or was this eventually one that was dealt

19 with in some other way?

20 A. It had the potential to deteriorate but

21 fortunately was resolved without the use of force by

22 either side.

23 Q. Yes. Incidents of this type, had you had

24 dealings with incidents of this type before?

25 A. Yes, I had. It was not unusual for convoys

Page 14088

1 moving through Bosnia-Herzegovina to be stopped by one

2 party or another, for one reason or another.

3 Q. Did the stopping of a convoy in itself

4 necessarily amount to a breach of the agreements that

5 had been hammered out with Halilovic, Petkovic, and

6 others, or not?

7 A. Part of the agreement between the two parties

8 had been for complete freedom of movement. It would

9 have been understood that the humanitarian convoy, run

10 by UNHCR, should have been free of arms and explosives

11 and therefore there would have been no necessity for it

12 to have been stopped again by either party en route, as

13 long as it was escorted by UNPROFOR.

14 Q. In the past when you'd had to deal with this

15 sort of problem, if you had, to whom had you turned?

16 A. To the control mechanism operated by either

17 side. Normally from the Croat point of view, we would

18 have referred to the person responsible in Mostar for

19 humanitarian relief and refugees, a Mr. Tadic.

20 Q. Now, we see that your note goes on to say

21 something about no longer taking orders. Tell us about

22 that, please.

23 A. The incident of breach of agreement for

24 freedom of movement was a blatant breach of the

25 understanding between the two parties, and as the two

Page 14089

1 Generals had toured parts of Bosnia, Central Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, for the purpose of explaining the need for

3 freedom of movement and ceasefire between the two

4 parties, such an incident was inevitably a block and an

5 obstacle to further peace in the region. And,

6 therefore, although it was not in itself a breach of

7 the agreement, specifically it was an instant that had

8 to be overcome.

9 Q. Your note reads, "No longer taking orders

10 from." Can you explain that?

11 A. Ambassador Thebault, seeing that something

12 was required to be done, asked General Petkovic to

13 accompany him to the communications centre, saying that

14 this was an ideal opportunity for the two parties to

15 work together, to overcome obstacles. If the joint

16 headquarters proposed was to be successful, they had to

17 take action, and take action rapidly.

18 So Ambassador Thebault and General Petkovic,

19 followed by myself, moved to the communication centre.

20 The idea being, that General Petkovic would telephone

21 the necessary party to obtain the release of the

22 convoy. In this case, the party concerned was

23 considered to be Mr. Dario Kordic.

24 Q. Pausing a minute. How many telephone calls,

25 if more than one, were there?

Page 14090

1 A. Two telephone calls were made.

2 Q. In what language did Petkovic speak?

3 A. Serbo-Croat.

4 Q. Did you have the services of an interpreter?

5 A. We did.

6 Q. Did the interpreter translate what was said

7 in the telephone calls?

8 A. On completion of each call, the interpreter

9 briefed Ambassador Thebault and myself.

10 Q. And it's that detail that you can tell us

11 about?

12 A. I can.

13 Q. Then please tell us what happened in the

14 first phone call, and then the second.

15 A. In the first phone call, General Petkovic

16 spoke to Mr. Dario Kordic and instructed him to release

17 the convoy. The reply was something to the effect that

18 Mr. Kordic was not beholden to General Petkovic, was

19 not obliged to follow his orders, any more than he was

20 to Colonel Blaskic, and that he would not release the

21 convoy. General Petkovic reported that to Ambassador

22 Thebault, who advised him that, in the spirit of the

23 agreements, that was not really satisfactory, and

24 considering that the British Battalion had advised it

25 would move the necessary strength to gain the release

Page 14091

1 of a convoy, one way or the other, by force if

2 necessary, Ambassador Thebault advised General Petkovic

3 he should try again.

4 General Petkovic phoned Mr. Kordic again, and

5 on the second occasion it is understood that he advised

6 Mr. Kordic that, for his own sake, and the safety of

7 his men, he should release the convoy.

8 Q. Two or three supplementary points about these

9 phone calls. In the first phone call, where Petkovic

10 was told to whom -- well, that Kordic wasn't beholden

11 to him, was anything else said, that you can recall,

12 about who he was answering to?

13 A. At that time, I understood that Mr. Kordic

14 said that he answered only to Mr. Boban, Mate Boban.

15 Q. And what was Petkovic's attitude, or

16 demeanour, at and after that first phone call?

17 A. Mr. Petkovic, or General Petkovic, appeared

18 embarrassed that he had not been able to move

19 Mr. Kordic to release the convoy. In my own

20 experience, it was first time, in my four months

21 dealings with General Petkovic, that an instruction

22 given directly by him would have been countered by

23 another party of his own entity, the Bosnian Croats.

24 Q. On how many occasions, if you can give any

25 approximation, had you had to deal with Petkovic?

Page 14092

1 A. I dealt with General Petkovic on a regular

2 basis, probably a weekly basis, as we dealt with

3 ceasefires in Gornji Vakuf, Mostar, Jablanica.

4 Q. With issues like this, or with other issues,

5 just give us the general scope.

6 A. General Petkovic would usually lead

7 discussions on a ceasefire between the Bosnian Croats

8 and the Bosnian Muslims. He would then task his

9 relevant subordinate Zone Commander, in my experience,

10 Colonels Siljeg or Lasic, and they would then therein

11 act for him in continuing discussions with their Muslim

12 counterparts.

13 Q. Turning then to the second conversation

14 which followed Ambassador Thebault's observations or

15 interventions, what was discussed or understood about

16 what might happen that led to the -- General Petkovic

17 saying it was for Kordic's own good?

18 A. Ambassador Thebault remarked to General

19 Petkovic that the British position appeared to be that

20 if it was necessary to take the convoy again by force,

21 then force would be used. General Petkovic, in a

22 rather resigned manner, said that, "If it took force,

23 then force should be used. If you have to shoot,

24 shoot."

25 Q. Let's go back to your note and see if you can

Page 14093

1 just explain the note and whatever else is there for

2 us. The note speaks of no longer taking orders from

3 Blaskic, but from Kordic. Can you explain that?

4 A. As part of the first discussion, where

5 Mr. Kordic stated that he would not accept orders from

6 Mr. Petkovic, or General Petkovic, in the same terms,

7 that he was no longer taking orders from Colonel

8 Blaskic either.

9 Q. And the next line says -- I think I can read

10 it, but I just want you to read it, rather than guess.

11 A. "If you are referring to the fact that one

12 company of the British Battalion were at that time

13 moving from their base in Vitez to Kaonik, and a

14 suggestion that a Liaison Officer was moving from the

15 HVO in Vitez to assist in negotiation."

16 There was also a statement made by the

17 British that the convoy had already been checked, and

18 there was no further reason for it to be detained.

19 Q. So does the company of BritBat moving, mean

20 moving in relation to this blocked convoy, or moving

21 for some other and wholly independent reason, or can't

22 you say? Don't guess.

23 A. The inference was that a company of British

24 Warrior vehicles was moving to retake control of the

25 convoy, by whatever means.

Page 14094

1 Q. I'm sorry, I mustn't go too fast. And a

2 company of BritBat would be how many vehicles? Do you

3 know?

4 A. Something in the region of 12 Warrior

5 vehicles.

6 Q. Then the last phrase that we haven't

7 interpreted, or you haven't dealt with, is to the right

8 of that. Are you able to now decipher that and

9 interpret it?

10 A. You --

11 Q. Immediately to the right of "BritBat

12 moving."

13 A. I cannot recall exactly what that phrase

14 means to me today. I understood that to mean that a

15 Liaison Officer from the HVO was moving with the

16 British convoy to facilitate the negotiation.

17 Q. In the event, was the convoy freed of the

18 hijacking that had occurred at the Busovaca junction?

19 A. The British Force arrived, the HVO detachment

20 dealing with the convoy insisted on completing its

21 search. The relationship between the two parties was

22 frosty, to say the least, but there was no violence,

23 and eventually the HVO released the convoy.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Wait there. You may be

25 asked some further questions.

Page 14095

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Stein:

2 Q. With the Court's permission. Mr. Beese, my

3 name is Bob Stein. I represent Dario Kordic. If I ask

4 you any question that you don't understand, will you

5 let me know?

6 A. Thank you very much.

7 Q. I may be asking you to refer to a document

8 which was appended to your summary, and that document

9 is two pages of some typewritten notes that I gather

10 you wrote in 1994 for your family; an account of detail

11 of what you had seen and heard during your tour in

12 Bosnia.

13 A. It is a personal account, yes.

14 Q. We may get to that. Would you please keep it

15 out.

16 First, sir, let me make sure I understand.

17 As of April, 1993, you did not speak Croatian; correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And I gather, therefore, you depended on

20 interpreters? Yes?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Now, on this particular day you had an

23 interpreter; one, I gather?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. That interpreter was a Muslim?

Page 14096

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Had you worked with that interpreter before?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And I gather Ambassador Thebault also was not

5 able to speak the Croatian language; correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now, do I take it that you, Ambassador

8 Thebault, General Petkovic, went off to the

9 communications centre with or without your interpreter?

10 A. With the interpreter.

11 Q. All right. How big is that communications

12 centre?

13 A. It is a small room with three desks in it.

14 Q. All right. And is it your testimony that

15 General Petkovic spoke on the phone, in the presence of

16 yourself, Ambassador Thebault, and your interpreter?

17 A. He spoke in the presence of Ambassador

18 Thebault and the interpreter. I stayed outside the

19 door because it was a relatively small room.

20 Q. I see. Is this for both phone calls?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. All right. So each of the two calls was made

23 in the small communications room with Ambassador

24 Thebault, General Petkovic, and the interpreter

25 present; is that right?

Page 14097

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. All right. And you yourself, therefore,

3 can't tell us how many times Ambassador Petkovic, on

4 that first -- I'm sorry, General Petkovic, during that

5 first phone call actually dialled the phone; is that

6 right?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. The same with the second phone call. Again,

9 you can't tell us, of your own personal knowledge, how

10 many phone calls were made the second time that the

11 gentlemen went into the communications room; is that

12 right?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. And do I take it, that after the first phone

15 call, you, the General, the Ambassador, and the

16 translator, went back to the meeting. Is that right?

17 A. They exited the communications centre and

18 spoke in the corridor outside.

19 Q. All right. And it was at that point that you

20 were also present; is that right?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. How long was the first call, please?

23 A. Two minutes, three minutes.

24 Q. And how long was the second call?

25 A. About the same.

Page 14098

1 Q. All right. And whether or not Mr. Kordic was

2 on the other end of the phone with General Petkovic,

3 you, of your own personal knowledge, do not know?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Same thing with the second call; isn't that

6 right?

7 A. Indeed.

8 Q. Whether or not General Petkovic actually

9 spoke to Kordic, or someone else, you are not privy to;

10 isn't that correct, sir?

11 A. Correct.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come

13 closer to the microphone, please, or speak up.


15 Q. Now, Petkovic apparently, after the first

16 call and before the second, according to your notes to

17 your family, and according to your testimony today,

18 said, essentially, that, "If you want to recover the

19 convoy, and if you have to shoot them, go ahead and

20 shoot them." Something along those lines. Is that

21 what you are telling the Court today?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. So you are telling the Court that a General

24 of the Croatian forces was espousing or advocating

25 shooting men or women of his own nationality; is that

Page 14099

1 right, sir?

2 A. Yes, in general terms. He was suggesting

3 that if the people could not follow a legitimately

4 given instruction, then, to some extent, it was their

5 problem and --

6 Q. He spoke those words in Croatian, of course?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Whether he was sarcastic or not, using the

9 dialect in a way that you are not aware of, you

10 certainly are not in a position to tell the Court;

11 isn't that correct?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. MIKULICIC: No questions from this side

15 of the Cerkez defence.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

17 Q. Any reason to doubt the accuracy or

18 reliability of the interpreter you had this day?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you remember now how long this interpreter

21 served for you?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Nice, could you also

23 speak into the microphone, please.

24 A. I personally used this interpreter. It was a

25 senior interpreter also used by the ambassador on a

Page 14100

1 number of occasions. She was a well-educated woman

2 and, in our experience, a very competent interpreter.

3 Q. You said you didn't know who was at the other

4 end of the telephone. Can you recall how it came about

5 that the suggestion was made, or the idea was raised,

6 that this phone call to Kordic should be made?

7 A. It was determined by Ambassador Thebault and

8 the General that it was the most likely office that

9 could resolve the issue. And if I remember correctly,

10 the communications staff were asked to call

11 Mr. Kordic's office. His number was known to the

12 communications staff.

13 Q. Given the locality of the hijacking, was

14 there any other person in authority to whom you or the

15 British Army could refer at that stage as a likely

16 candidate to deal with this problem?

17 A. None.

18 Q. Was any other candidate ever identified as

19 likely power broker or exerciser of power in the

20 locality?

21 A. None.

22 Q. It may be being suggested or raised as a

23 possibility that Petkovic was misleading you by ringing

24 somebody entirely different. Tell us about the rest of

25 your dealings with Petkovic and how reliable or

Page 14101

1 unreliable he was.

2 A. Petkovic had always given me the impression

3 that he was a professional military man, he had his own

4 code of honour. He said what he wished to say quite

5 specifically and, having determined what he wished to

6 do, issued instructions accordingly. He was a very

7 straight person to deal with.

8 Q. When he was required or requested to deal

9 with an alleged breach of the agreement, did he comply,

10 so for as you could judge?

11 A. He would choose his own course of action, of

12 course, but if he issued an instruction, on the whole,

13 it was carried out without question.

14 Q. Two more questions and that's all. It's been

15 suggested as effectively improbable that he should say,

16 "Shoot if you have to," or whatever, the way it was

17 described. From your experience, can you just give an

18 explanation for that?

19 A. The General exhibited a certain amount of

20 pique, I believe, at being turned down on what was, to

21 him, perhaps a perfectly straightforward request.

22 Q. You've been asked about the account -- in

23 fact, you haven't been asked about it, but you've had

24 identified to you your account you wrote for your

25 family, which the Chamber may or may not look at or may

Page 14102

1 or may not have looked at. But just help us, when you

2 wrote that, did you have any expectation or intention

3 of using it as an aide-memoire for evidence or was it

4 written for other purposes?

5 A. The account was written for personal

6 purposes, to record one's own role. At the time, you

7 say for family use, but also to ensure that if, at any

8 stage in the future, there was a need to reconsider the

9 issues at the time, one would have a more accurate

10 perspective, having recorded it closer to the time. It

11 was not written for the purpose of airing in court.

12 Q. You wrote that roughly in what year?

13 A. 1994.

14 MR. NICE: Yes. That's all I ask of this

15 witness.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Beese, that concludes your

17 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

18 Tribunal to give it. You are released.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 MR. NICE: That concludes the evidence for

22 today. But can I return to the -- perhaps before

23 Ms. Bauer leaves to go and do a little chore for me, I

24 could just check that I know what the up-to-date

25 position is on witnesses.

Page 14103

1 If the Chamber would be good enough to look

2 at the little selection of documents handed in by the

3 Defence this morning, the second sheet, headed "Friday,

4 the 4th of February Letter - Witnesses Expected to

5 Testify the Week of the 14th to 21st of February," was,

6 indeed, an accurate forecast at that stage. The

7 following letter --

8 JUDGE MAY: We needn't go through this.

9 MR. NICE: No, no, no, but just to help

10 everyone. Then it was explained which witnesses were

11 missing, and I think apart from the fact that they

12 telephoned Mr. Scott, who was having to deal with

13 unexpected absence through injury of one of the vital

14 members of the team, there would have been no

15 confusion.

16 But if we look at the list, so that I can

17 just keep everyone informed, on the Friday, the 4th

18 letter, which is the most accurate one, witnesses 4 and

19 5 and 7 for this week are -- I beg your pardon, 4 and 5

20 are unwilling; 7 is all right. As notified by

21 Ms. Bauer, we have made efforts to fill this week up,

22 and if we look at the week of the 21st of February,

23 number 1, we have advanced and number 3, we have

24 advanced; that is to say, they are being brought up

25 physically this week.

Page 14104

1 I can tell you that for the week of the 21st

2 of February, number 4 is apparently sick and unwilling;

3 number 5 is refusing, and I think an application is

4 being made or has been made in respect of that witness;

5 and the last two, 8 and 9, are, I think, subpoena

6 witnesses in any event. As to number 2, I think this

7 witness is not coming for other reasons and is either

8 sick or is not needed, but there's a question mark over

9 that.

10 Now, the upshot of all that, as the Chamber

11 will appreciate, is that with good fortune we will have

12 a full week of evidence this week; witness number 3, an

13 expert, will obviously take some time; the other

14 witnesses available for this week, especially with the

15 ones accelerated from next week, should fill all or

16 most of the week. There are some arguments to be dealt

17 with, of course, along the way.

18 JUDGE MAY: So let us look at the position.

19 We have number 3 --

20 MR. NICE: Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: -- the expert, tomorrow?

22 MR. NICE: Yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: If someone could indicate, how

24 long is he likely to be.

25 Mr. Sayers.

Page 14105

1 Do we have a summary of him? I don't think

2 we have. Are we going to get a summary?

3 MR. NICE: I think you'll get your summary

4 this afternoon. The witness has arrived.

5 JUDGE MAY: We've had his long document.

6 MR. NICE: You have the long document, and I

7 will do my best to ensure that you do get a summary of

8 the main points.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think it would be helpful

10 with a witness like this.

11 MR. SAYERS: I would think, Your Honour,

12 three-quarters of a day for witness number 3.

13 JUDGE MAY: Presumably we can restrict

14 cross-examination if we've got a summary and that can

15 stand as his evidence, unless there's some point --.

16 Mr. Nice, any reason why we couldn't do

17 that?

18 MR. NICE: Probably not. I mean, I know that

19 with experts, it's a balancing act between just simply

20 tendering the report and getting the witness to say

21 enough about himself for the Chamber both to remember

22 him as a witness and also for him to become validated.

23 But I've instructed my colleagues to take him as

24 briefly as they think it's possible, and I therefore

25 don't think it will be very long in chief.

Page 14106

1 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could reinforce

2 that.

3 MR. NICE: Yes.

4 JUDGE MAY: There's no reason why the balance

5 of the summary shouldn't be his evidence in chief,

6 subject to some additional questions, if it's looked at

7 in that way.

8 MR. NICE: Certainly.

9 JUDGE MAY: So one way or another, we should

10 finish that witness tomorrow. And then 4 and 5, you

11 say, are unwilling.

12 MR. NICE: Yes. Six is gone.

13 JUDGE MAY: Six, we've dealt with.

14 MR. NICE: Witnesses 7 and 8, I'm not sure

15 how long they will be, but I don't think, in the nature

16 of things, they're likely to consume a whole day

17 between them.

18 JUDGE MAY: So they're likely to be

19 Wednesday, as it were.

20 MR. NICE: Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: Going back to 4 and 5, are you

22 taking any steps in relation to those witnesses, or

23 what are you proposing to do about it?

24 MR. NICE: We may be taking steps. I think

25 there's already a report before you about number 4, but

Page 14107

1 I'm having, as I'm having to at this stage of the

2 trial, meetings on almost a daily basis to rejig, and

3 I'll let you know the final position on which witnesses

4 we'll seek to compel tomorrow. And, indeed, I think

5 that amongst the various issues we're going to have to

6 deal with in the spare time that refusing witnesses

7 create for us over the next week or so, amongst the

8 other issues we have to deal with, is, indeed,

9 compulsion of attendance of witnesses in the remaining

10 time.

11 So that takes us to Wednesday, and then with

12 the witnesses brought forward from the following week,

13 that will only, I think, consume part of Thursday.

14 There are a number of outstanding issues for

15 consideration, there are transcripts and documents and

16 so on, and I dare say that with administrative matters,

17 we'll use most of this week. But I do see the

18 possibility for some of next week falling free, unless

19 I'm able to accelerate witnesses from the week

20 following.

21 In next week, I think it would be convenient

22 to take -- or might be convenient to take the argument

23 about dead and unwilling, even though inevitably we

24 won't have reached the final position about all

25 witnesses concerned. As you know, I'd hoped to be in a

Page 14108

1 position to take that argument when the final position

2 was known, but we're getting a rate of refusing

3 witnesses now which is adding to the witnesses in

4 respect of whom ultimately I may make application. So

5 to some extent, the argument will have to be in general

6 terms, but I hope we'll be able to cover all categories

7 of witnesses next week, and that argument, perhaps, if

8 I give notice, can be dealt with then.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, well, that seems sensible,

10 particularly the time at the end of this week to

11 progress matters as much as we can. After the week of

12 the 21st, you will have two weeks --

13 MR. NICE: Yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: -- and I trust you're on course.

15 MR. NICE: Oh, yes. I see no problem with

16 the date, subject to two points: One, the obvious

17 point, that if a timetabled witness announces he's got

18 flu or something of that sort, it's outside my control,

19 but I hope that won't happen; the second point that I

20 think I must, in all good conscience, make is this:

21 There are, of course, very substantial political

22 changes happening in one of the countries from which we

23 seek to obtain documents. I have no idea what, if any,

24 difference that's going to make so far as production of

25 material to us is concerned.

Page 14109

1 JUDGE MAY: It is most important that we

2 finish this Prosecution in a timely way.

3 MR. NICE: I quite accept that.

4 JUDGE MAY: You do have the advantage in this

5 Tribunal of being able to call rebuttal evidence.

6 MR. NICE: Yes, definitely.

7 JUDGE MAY: Of course, that's not a

8 satisfactory way to go about it, but it does mean there

9 is a fallback position.

10 MR. NICE: Yes, indeed.

11 JUDGE MAY: We do not want to hold matters up

12 in the hope, as it were, that something may turn up.

13 MR. NICE: There's nothing macabre-ish about

14 this, and I certainly don't have any expectation of

15 making any generalised application, I simply feel it's

16 necessary to remind us all that the changes are very

17 significant.

18 On that topic, can I, before I forget it,

19 deal with the timetable for the response of one of

20 those countries which has been dealt with by an order

21 of the Chamber, with a 28-day and a 14-day order.

22 Our calculation is that the combination of

23 those two periods of time would have the witness, or

24 the representative of the state, here on the 10th of

25 March, that is, the very last day of our case. It

Page 14110

1 happens that -- well, it's going to be the last day of

2 our case, or could be the last day of our case; I

3 rather hope it might be a day or so earlier than that.

4 It so happens that I can't be here on that particular

5 day myself. Before I knew of the date, I was committed

6 elsewhere, and that's that. That's not a problem. But

7 it might be, if it were possible, preferable for a

8 couple of reasons to have the representative of the

9 state here one day before that, on the 9th, which would

10 be the Thursday, rather than simply on the last day of

11 the case.

12 It may be our calculations of days are not

13 necessarily absolutely accurate, or it may be that the

14 Chamber intended to have the witness or the

15 representative here on that Friday, but in a way, it

16 would be preferable if it could come, perhaps, the day

17 before, on Thursday, the 9th.

18 JUDGE MAY: We had made no decisions about

19 this. I had thought that the date would fall between

20 the two cases, but I'm not certain of that.

21 MR. NICE: Well, there it is. I think the

22 way it reads, it falls on the last day of our case, and

23 that would seem to be perhaps a little unfortunate if

24 we need to use it for other things, which I don't

25 necessarily think we will.

Page 14111

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

2 Mr. Stein, while I have it in mind, you have

3 filed an application in relation to the dossiers,

4 asking, in effect, that there's an order that you and

5 the Prosecution or representatives from each side

6 should meet to discuss these matters, together with a

7 representative of the Registry. You don't need an

8 order for that. We encourage you to meet. If there

9 are any difficulties about arranging a meeting, then,

10 of course, let us know. But all sides should be

11 prepared to meet and should be able to sort matters

12 out.

13 MR. STEIN: Perhaps it was poor draftsmanship

14 on my part, Your Honour. Not only did I encourage a

15 meeting, but having gone through the village binders

16 myself this week with an eye towards your Tulica

17 decision, with an eye towards that which has been

18 admitted versus that which has been rejected, it became

19 apparent to me that anyone who was working with the

20 binders would have to have in hand the Tulica decision,

21 the orders on each specific binder, before they knew

22 what they could rely on in each.

23 So the goal and gist of what I was trying to

24 say was, with one representative from each side and the

25 Registry, we could literally take the rejected reports,

Page 14112

1 statements, exhibits, from the binder so that all we're

2 left with in the official court file is that which has

3 been admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE MAY: That is the clear outcome which

5 the Court desires.

6 MR. STEIN: Very good, sir.

7 JUDGE MAY: I don't imagine there's any

8 difficulty about the Prosecution appointing somebody to

9 do it --

10 MR. NICE: No, there isn't.

11 JUDGE MAY: -- and I don't anticipate any

12 difficulty about the Registry meeting. So perhaps on a

13 convenient date this week or next week, a meeting could

14 take place, and if need be, you can have some court

15 time to do it. It appears there may be time

16 available.

17 I think I would be grateful if both sides

18 would list the administrative matters which remain

19 outstanding, and they could pass them to the Legal

20 Officer, perhaps, and we can have an agenda of

21 everything that's got to be done before the 10th of

22 March, so that we know exactly where we're going.

23 MR. STEIN: With that in mind, sir, as I

24 indicated this morning, we are prepared to present to

25 the Court that which we also presented to the

Page 14113

1 Prosecution, which is our work analysing the 46

2 transcript witnesses. We have a template on that that

3 I think will be helpful to the Court. It sets out the

4 Prosecution's position, our position, Mr. Cerkez's

5 position - we knew from a letter that he was objecting

6 or not to 13 of the witnesses - whether or not we

7 object, the basis, and other comments. I've served

8 that on the Prosecution. I think the Court will also

9 find it helpful for when and if we get to those

10 transcript witnesses.

11 JUDGE MAY: I think the sooner we have that

12 document, the better. If you let us have it in due

13 course.

14 MR. STEIN: I certainly will. Certainly we

15 have spent time with the village binders doing the same

16 thing. We have a template. The majority of the

17 exhibits we don't fight about or object to. That which

18 we do, we set out and why.

19 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps the sensible thing is to

20 have your meeting about the village binders, see if you

21 can get them into order, and if there are any matters

22 still in dispute, the Court will rule.

23 MR. STEIN: Fine. With regard also to the

24 international armed conflict documents, we were served

25 six binders. We have meticulously gone through those

Page 14114

1 and, similarly, served on the other side what we object

2 to and what we don't. What was most difficult was the

3 last binder, which had no index whatsoever, just was

4 kind of thrown in. We tried to, the best we can,

5 create a template and work within those parameters as

6 well.

7 Which brings us to a last point that I'd like

8 to make, and that is relative to the map expert. Your

9 Honour particularly asked for front lines to be drawn.

10 Certainly reasonable. We could all benefit from a map

11 showing us the front lines.

12 The problem is that the witness selected by

13 the Prosecution went well beyond analysing the front

14 lines, and went into issues of force, force ratios,

15 relative ratios between the ABiH troops and the HVO.

16 And to do so, dipped into the Blaskic testimony, and

17 lifted Colonel Blaskic's testimony and used that for

18 his report.

19 As we've done with another expert witness, we

20 have colour coded those portions of the reports that

21 rely on General Blaskic's testimony, as well as another

22 witness who has yet to testify.

23 This is premature, of course, but when that

24 witness comes to testify, that issue will be extant.

25 We also asked for, and Mr. Nice on two occasions

Page 14115

1 indicated we would have, that witness' resume or

2 curriculum vitae. We received a letter from

3 Mr. Lopez-Terres saying we would not be getting the map

4 demographer's vitae. We again would like that which

5 was initially suggested to the Court would be no

6 problem, so that the entire package would be complete.

7 Last but not least, sir, we will not be able

8 to run from the issue that is created by the

9 demographer, but it comes up in other contexts, and

10 that is the use by the Prosecution of Colonel Blaskic's

11 testimony or General Blaskic's testimony selectively.

12 They want to use portions. We do not have the entirety

13 of the General's testimony. There were 30 days of

14 testimony, of which five, we believe, were in closed

15 session. There is 6,000 pages of transcript, of the

16 12.000 pages of transcript that we were asked to

17 consume.

18 So that issue won't go away. I am

19 forecasting it.

20 JUDGE MAY: Say that again. 6,000 of the

21 12,000 are Colonel Blaskic's testimony?

22 MR. STEIN: That's right. More or less.

23 Give me 100 pages off.

24 JUDGE MAY: And the invitation is that that

25 is admitted in this trial.

Page 14116

1 MR. STEIN: The invitation is that so far

2 selected portions the Prosecution seeks to admit, but

3 not all. And I suspect, as we march down towards the

4 10th of March, we will see more and more of that. The

5 invitation being that our position and Blaskic's

6 position is identical, something we've rejected

7 consistently. And we are, of course, not in the same

8 position as the Prosecution, who has the benefit of the

9 entirety of the General's testimony, and we do not have

10 the entirety of that testimony; much of the testimony

11 and the exhibits being admitted in closed session. So

12 they have the advantage on us.

13 JUDGE MAY: As the issue arises, we'll have

14 to rule on it.

15 MR. STEIN: Very good, sir.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic. Yes.

17 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If I may,

18 Your Honour, the Defence of Mr. Cerkez has the same

19 positions as just presented by Mr. Stein, and we would

20 not have anything in particular to add. We really do

21 not wish to cause problems unnecessarily, but I believe

22 that the Chamber must understand the position we are

23 in; in view of the quantity of this material and the

24 position of the defence of Mr. Cerkez, in view of the

25 fact that we are a small team. There is just one point

Page 14117

1 that I wish to make, that we need at least twice as

2 much time as our colleagues on the Kordic defence.

3 So will you please bear in mind the problems

4 we are confronting, and how much effort we are

5 investing in our work. That is why, perhaps, some of

6 our suggestions and requests may appear to be

7 unreasonable, but there are simply limits to our

8 physical abilities. That is all I wish to say.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll sit tomorrow

10 morning. We hope to provide some additional dates,

11 during the course of the week, covering the period

12 between the two cases, for instance, an oral hearing.

13 The parties might like to think about this, an oral

14 hearing in relation to any no case submission, a

15 suitable date which will have to be fixed, and hearings

16 throughout the summer, which we hope to list.

17 MR. NICE: Can I suggest the one topic that

18 it's pretty clear we ought to deal with this week, if

19 we can, is transcripts. Because, on the basis of

20 applications that witnesses should attend, will follow

21 our having to call those witnesses here. We may have

22 to make arrangements.

23 So perhaps we can focus on that for this

24 week, focus on the dead and unwilling argument for next

25 week, and I'll provide an agenda of everything that's

Page 14118

1 outstanding, following this evening's meeting that I

2 intend to have.

3 JUDGE MAY: The parties should do as much as

4 they can to agree with the transcripts, and indicate

5 what is outstanding for the Trial Chamber to rule on.

6 9.30 tomorrow, please.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

8 at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on

9 Tuesday, the 15th day of February,

10 2000 at 9.30 a.m.