1 Tuesday 7 March, 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [Accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T. The Prosecutor versus Dario

7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

10 Your Honour.

11 WITNESS: Witness AO, Resumed:

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness AO, let us continue where we left off

14 yesterday, and that is the meeting held in September

15 1993, at the HVO headquarters, and that is item 22,

16 paragraph 22 in your statement. I think that we have

17 more or less finished with the conversation about the

18 order which arrived from Grude. Let us now talk about

19 the reply sent by the HVO from Vares to Grude. You saw

20 that reply, and you read it?

21 A. The reply that was sent from the headquarters

22 to Grude?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. That was conversation between Ivica Rajic, on

25 leaving the staff.

1 Q. No. I am referring to what happened before

2 Rajic arrived in September. We are talking about

3 September 1993.

4 A. The order was sent to Grude, asking for

5 approval to get a response from Grude, telling us what

6 to do, whether -- whether travel should be allowed from

7 Dabravine via Pogar and Dubostica, and the response had

8 to come from Grude.

9 Q. I have to interrupt you. Please don't

10 mention Mr. Rajic, because this is an entirely

11 different topic.

12 A. Anto Pejcinovic was the one who sent the

13 letter; is that what you are referring to.

14 Q. Yes, September 1993, Hotel Ponikve, the HVO

15 headquarters. That's what I am asking about. The

16 response sent by Anto Pejcinovic to Grude. You were

17 informed about this.

18 A. I know that the meeting was held in the Hotel

19 Ponikve, that a letter was sent to Grude, and a request

20 was made or, rather, they did not agree to the offer

21 asking for help from the Republika Srpska in defence.

22 Q. Very well. And to whom was this answer

23 addressed?

24 A. You mean to whom was the letter sent?

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. The letter was sent to the headquarters in

2 Grude.

3 Q. When you say the headquarters in Grude, are

4 you referring to the main staff of the HVO?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said in your previous statement that both

7 Anto Pejcinovic and Vojislav Halo [phoen] Were prepared

8 to ask for passage over Serbian territory for the

9 injured, if need be.

10 A. As regards the Republika Srpska, in Vares we

11 never counted on a conflict with the Muslims until the

12 very last day, when it occurred.

13 Q. Talking about the meeting in September 1993,

14 you told investigators of The Hague Tribunal that the

15 organs in Vares lied, saying they did not need the

16 assistance of the Serbs, however, they were prepared to

17 ask for free passage of a Serbian territory for the

18 wounded.

19 A. Yes, I've already said that. We didn't need

20 any help because in Vares there shouldn't have been an

21 incident.

22 Q. What I am saying is, do we agree that it's

23 logical that care should be taken of one's own wounded?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Since our time is limited, please answer very

1 briefly.

2 A. Well, you have half an hour, so we'll be

3 finished in half an hour.

4 Q. Let's go onto the next topic, and that is

5 paragraph 23 in your statement. And that refers to the

6 first arrival of Ivica Rajic to Vares. Where did you

7 meet Ivica Rajic?

8 A. Well, I knew him before.

9 Q. When before?

10 A. Before the war.

11 Q. Before the war he was a JNA officer?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So you know him from then?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where did he serve?

16 A. He served in Macedonia for a time.

17 Q. Can you tell us what Ivica Rajic's duty was

18 in the HVO?

19 A. Well, I know that he was the commander for

20 Central Bosnia, Kresevo, Kiseljak, Vares.

21 Q. But you don't know his exact post? I am

22 waiting for an answer.

23 A. I beg your pardon?

24 Q. You don't know exactly what post he held?

25 A. What was important was that he was a

1 commander.

2 Q. Who was his superior commander?

3 A. The staff in Grude.

4 Q. You say that Ivica Rajic told you then that

5 he had been sent from Grude, and that the order was

6 signed by General Praljak; is that correct?

7 A. He came to Vares. He was invited to the

8 staff. We knew each other from before. And I thought

9 that he came with good intentions, when I accepted his

10 invitation. And during our conversation, I saw what it

11 was all about, and what was going to happen, and I was

12 not pleased that he had invited me.

13 Q. Will you please answer my question?

14 A. Who signed the order for Ivica Rajic?

15 Q. Yes. You said in the examination-in-chief

16 that it had been sent from Grude.

17 A. The order came from Grude.

18 Q. And that it was signed by General Praljak?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. My question is, who in Grude; the main staff

21 of the HVO?

22 A. Yes, the main staff, the wartime presidency.

23 Q. Since the wartime presidency did not exist as

24 an organ, I'm putting a specific question.

25 A. You mean who was in charge of the HVO? Well,

1 that was the person who signed the order. You can call

2 them what you like. I call them the wartime

3 presidency.

4 Q. The Prosecutor asked you who from Central

5 Bosnia contacted General Praljak.

6 A. From Central Bosnia?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Well, from Central Bosnia, I think it was

9 Ivica Rajic who talked to him, and I think it was

10 Mr. Kordic, that he and Mr. Kreso Bozic, they were the

11 people who were in contact, because the president was

12 removed then and the people in Vares, for example,

13 Pejcinovic, Duznovic, could no longer do so.

14 Q. When you mentioned Mr. Kordic, do you agree

15 with me that you only assume that Mr. Kordic had

16 contacts with General Praljak?

17 A. In the letters which Mr. Ivica Rajic had,

18 since we spent the entire night together, and in the

19 papers that were there, that according to that evidence

20 I bear witness that he did have contacts.

21 Q. Will you please give us a specific example, a

22 certain occasion when you know that Kordic contacted

23 Praljak?

24 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given an

25 example. He said in the papers which he saw, that name

1 was mentioned. Now, if there is any other example, the

2 witness can give it. But otherwise, he has answered

3 the question.

4 Is there anything you want to add,

5 Witness AO, to what you said?

6 A. Well, I can give an example to complete my

7 answer.

8 In contacts, when -- on Ivica Rajic's arrival

9 in Vares, when Kreso Bozic suggested that for Stupni

10 Do, and I know that Ivica Rajic went out of the

11 meeting, he went to the communication centre and he had

12 contacts. And when talking to Mr. Ivica Rajic, he

13 mentioned Dario Kordic.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I'm glad you said that. We shall go back to

16 this topic. Do you have any other example, His Honour

17 asked.

18 A. Well, this is my example.

19 Q. Very well. We shall come back to that

20 example.

21 Do you know at all what General Praljak's

22 post was at that time?

23 A. Well, he was a general, so that means he was

24 the chief or the commander for the army, or for

25 security, or something like that. I personally do not

1 know Mr. Praljak.

2 Q. If I understood you correctly, you do not

3 know what his post was, you just assume it.

4 A. No, I don't know, but when he was a

5 commander, I'm sure that he was high up.

6 Q. Do you know exactly what Mr. Kordic's post

7 was at that time?

8 A. Well, I know that Kordic was one of the main

9 people.

10 Q. But what was his post?

11 A. Well, he was the most important person in the

12 wartime presidency. But what the name of his position

13 was, I don't know. But I know that he was the most

14 important person there, the one in charge.

15 Q. I have to remind you again that a wartime

16 presidency did not exist. That was an organ that

17 existed in the territory controlled by the army of

18 B and H. So what are you talking about when you refer

19 to the wartime presidency on the Croatian side?

20 A. I have already answered this.

21 JUDGE MAY: You are putting, Mr. Naumovski,

22 your case. The witness is giving his evidence. Simply

23 to assert as a fact something which is contrary to his

24 evidence does not assist the Trial Chamber. In due

25 course, you can call your evidence about it. But

1 meanwhile, you've heard his evidence. Let's move on.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, I will,

3 Your Honour. But please understand me, because I do

4 not understand what the witness is referring to, and

5 this hinders communication, so I have to ask.

6 A. Well, I think the most important people who

7 are in charge of the HVO.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well,

9 you've told us.

10 Q. Will you tell us, please, did you ever see

11 the decision on the founding of the Croatian Community

12 of Herceg-Bosna?

13 A. The decision on its founding?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Well, perhaps --

16 Q. About the establishment.

17 A. Well, I saw, in Vares, what it looked like.

18 Q. But you did not see the decision?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You said yesterday, and that is paragraph 24

21 in your statement, that Ivica Rajic told you about some

22 kind of agreement between the Croats and the Serbs,

23 that Vares, Zepce and Kiseljak should belong to the

24 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. But I did not understand completely. Who was

2 it that reached this agreement? Was it the Serbs and

3 the Croats in Bosnia?

4 A. I think it was the Croats in Herzegovina.

5 Q. And the Serbs from Bosnia?

6 A. I think it was the Serbs from Herzegovina,

7 because the first agreement with the Serbs was in

8 Herzegovina, the first contacts between the HVO and the

9 army of Republika Srpska occurred in Herzegovina, and

10 that was the route our convoys took from Vares.

11 Q. I'm not talking about the convoys. I'm

12 talking about the territories you mentioned.

13 A. I'm just telling you where the agreement

14 between the Serbs and the Croats began.

15 Q. But would you agree with me that Zepce and

16 Kiseljak were never taken over by the army of B and H

17 and that they defended themselves?

18 A. Well, if we had had Luzanski and Ivica Rajic

19 hadn't arrived, this wouldn't have happened. But since

20 the forces from Kakanj and Vares were forced out and

21 went to Kiseljak, there was a lot of army in Kiseljak,

22 so it was not easy. And also if Ivo Komisic and Petar

23 Jozelic from Zagreb, in agreement with the Serb Besogic

24 [phoen], hadn't stopped this and signed the Federation,

25 I think that a worse massacre would have taken in

1 Kiseljak and Kresevo than it did in Vares.

2 Q. Well, that is just your conclusion, your

3 opinion?

4 A. No, it's not an opinion.

5 Q. Do you have any facts, any knowledge of this?

6 A. Well, I have facts. I had quite a few

7 contacts with Petar Jozelic in the office in Zagreb and

8 Mr. Zlatko Tomcic, Dragutin Stipac and Ivo Komsic,

9 Luzanski, and even with the top leadership of the

10 Muslims who wanted to cooperate.

11 Q. Now that you mention this, in what capacity

12 did you have talks with them; as a politician?

13 A. No, for a time in 1994, I worked as a

14 representative of humanitarian organisations, Zagreb,

15 Offenbach, Tuzla.

16 Q. Very well.

17 A. If you have read the book, "Extinguished

18 Youth," you'll see it's all described there.

19 Q. We can proceed, Witness AO. You said that

20 when Ivica Rajic came to Vares for the second time,

21 Pejcinovic, Duznovic and Gavran were arrested?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know for a fact, according to whose

24 order they were replaced and arrested?

25 A. On the orders of the command from Grude.

1 Q. On that same day, to pass on to another

2 topic, and that refers to the other meeting that was

3 held in the HVO staff, attended by Rajic, Kresimir

4 Bozic, Emil Harah and others. You remember that

5 meeting?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. At that meeting Rajic said that he had

8 received an order from, as you call it, the wartime

9 presidency from Grude?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. He showed that document, and you could all

12 see it?

13 A. We could all see it, if we were interested.

14 Q. What kind of document was it? Was it an

15 original?

16 A. Well, it was a list. It was -- it was a

17 document on two or three pages. It was typed. And at

18 the top it said "order," and an organisation was

19 mentioned, and there was a little map there. And on

20 the third page, in the top right-hand corner, there was

21 a signature, and the name of the person to whom it was

22 addressed.

23 Q. So let's start from the beginning. To whom

24 was it addressed?

25 A. To Mr. Ivica Rajic.

1 Q. Witness AO, you have a certain military

2 education since you served in the army. Could we say

3 that this was a military order?

4 A. When you say that I served in the army, I was

5 not an active serviceman in the former JNA. I was

6 simply a Corporal. I was not in active service, and as

7 regards my knowledge of military orders, I do have some

8 understanding of this, and I think it was a military

9 order.

10 Q. Who signed this military order on the last

11 page?

12 A. Well, it was signed on behalf of the command

13 in Grude, the staff in Grude.

14 Q. Yes. But since you had this document, or

15 since you saw it, you have to know who signed it.

16 A. Sir, I saw at least 30 such documents and

17 orders, and I guarantee that they were signed by

18 Kordic, Boban, Praljak, and if you want me to talk

19 about this on another occasion, I will go and try to

20 collect all these documents.

21 Q. Please, can you give me a specific answer

22 about this specific document. Do you know who signed

23 it? If you don't, say so, and we'll go on.

24 A. I know that in all the documents --

25 Q. I am not talking about all the documents.

1 A. I know that in this document Dario Kordic was

2 mentioned, and Praljak and Boban, in the text of the

3 letter -- of that letter.

4 Q. I have a question about that as well, the

5 context in which they were mentioned. But do you know

6 who signed this military order?

7 JUDGE MAY: Look. That has been dealt with.

8 We have been round and round this point. Now, let's

9 move on. He's told you he doesn't know.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Yes. Well, you said yesterday that Mr. Dario

12 Kordic was only mentioned on this three-page document.

13 In what context?

14 A. I also mentioned that Ivica Rajic, after

15 talking to Kreso Bozic --

16 Q. We'll come to that.

17 A. -- contacted Dario Kordic.

18 Q. We'll come to that. Please. I am asking

19 you, in what context was Mr. Kordic mentioned in that

20 letter?

21 A. Mr. Kordic was mentioned in the context of

22 the command, that is, he was part of the organisation

23 that wrote the document. In the context of a member of

24 the wartime presidency.

25 Q. Can you remember any details?

1 A. No, I can't.

2 Q. The sentence in which it was written, the

3 names?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. You say that apart from his name, Mate

6 Boban's name was also mentioned?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Any other names?

9 A. I've already told you all of them.

10 Q. Were there any signatures on that document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. More than one?

13 A. I think there were two signatures, one was in

14 the right-hand corner, the other was in the left-hand

15 corner.

16 Q. But you already said you don't know who

17 signed. Very well. Did you notice a stamp on that

18 document? Was it stamped?

19 A. Yes, there was a stamp. It was red, and I

20 only noticed the big letters which said "HVO," and I

21 think it was stamped number 1, or so it seems to me.

22 Q. You already told us what was said in the

23 document, and who was to replace whom. But you also

24 said in your statement that there was mention in that

25 document that special units were to come to the

1 assistance of places which were under threat of attack

2 from Bosnia-Herzegovina, and those were the Croatian

3 villages of Mir, Borovica, Ovceva; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now that we are talking about Croatian

6 villages, do you know what happened to the village of

7 Koplarji on the 22nd of October '93?

8 A. Yes, I know.

9 Q. There was an attack on this Croatian village;

10 is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know how many civilians were killed?

13 A. Yes. There were three.

14 Q. Let us go back to what you mentioned today,

15 once or twice; and that is that Mr. Rajic left the

16 meeting at some point.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Today you are telling us that he went to make

19 a phone call and then came back. And what did he say

20 when he came back?

21 A. To begin with, I did not say he went to make

22 a phone call. I said he went to the signals command.

23 I never mentioned any telephone.

24 Q. Very well. And when he came back?

25 A. When he came back, he changed his mind and

1 supported the opinion of Kresimir Bozic.

2 Q. Very well. And did he say anything else, who

3 he had talked to?

4 A. Well, he mentioned Mr. Kordic. He also

5 mentioned Mr. Praljak and -- well, such like, during

6 that conversation.

7 Q. Witness AO, this is the first time that you

8 are telling us today that Mr. Rajic did indeed say who

9 he had been talking to. You did not say it yesterday,

10 during the examination-in-chief, or in the statement.

11 A. I believe I did mention it, but perhaps

12 somebody did not accept it. I also mentioned yesterday

13 that he left that -- that he had left the meeting at

14 Kreso Bozic's.

15 Q. Their Honours know all that you said. But

16 you did not mention who he had been talking to?

17 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps I wasn't asked

18 it in the same manner as you are asking me now.

19 Q. Namely, you told the investigators of The

20 Hague Tribunal, under 27, that after Bozic said that

21 there were enemies in the town itself, you said,

22 verbatim, "Rajic left the meeting, made a phone call,

23 came back and said, the priorities accorded to the

24 arrest of Muslims and taken possession of Stupni Do."

25 Not a word about who he had spoken to.

1 A. Well, you did not ask me that.

2 Q. Very well. Let me then rephrase it. He

3 mentioned several names, Mr. Kordic, Praljak, and I

4 don't know who else.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Had he made one phone call or several?

7 A. Well, I am telling you that I did not say

8 that he had -- that he made a telephone call. He went

9 to the communications centre, and how he communicated

10 with them, by telephone or by some other means, I don't

11 know. All I said was that it was a communication

12 through the signal centre.

13 Q. So that is my question. Why did you speak

14 about a telephone conversation, when telephone lines

15 had been cut off?

16 A. And I am telling you that I never mentioned a

17 telephone. I said -- all I said was the signals

18 centre, and nothing else.

19 Q. Very well. But then did he tell you how --

20 with how many people he communicated with?

21 A. I don't know that. I know he told us who he

22 told us he had communicated with, and he mentioned

23 those names.

24 Q. Witness AO, everybody knows who had an office

25 at Grude. Isn't it that it was Mr. Boban's office in

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1 Grude? Wasn't that a common knowledge?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And these organs know also that Mr. Kordic's

4 office was in Busovaca, that has been said here many

5 times. And Busovaca was cut off from the rest of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina in '93?

7 A. Yes. But I did say once, and I think it says

8 somewhere here. If you want me to say that, then I

9 shall say it. When one speaks of Dario Kordic, could

10 all these communications be maintained between Vares

11 and Grude directly, or did the link go through Busovaca

12 and Kiseljak. I think that the Vares HVO -- I mean, I

13 am familiar with the equipment of the HVO in Vares and

14 how technically trained they were. I know that they

15 did not have the transmitting equipment and they had to

16 turn to others to ask for this equipment.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- cross-examination. It

18 sounds more like a brawl, like a quarrel. I think you

19 should concentrate on putting the essential points of

20 your case to the witness.

21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

22 Your Honour. This is what I am putting to the witness,

23 perhaps indirectly. Mr. Ivica Rajic did not have that

24 conversation with Mr. Kordic, nor did this witness ever

25 say that Mr. Rajic had spoken by telephone to anyone.

1 And I am saying it now.

2 Q. Mr. Ivica Rajic never spoke over the phone

3 with Mr. Kordic, and he couldn't have told you that?

4 A. That is what you think.

5 Q. Mr. Rajic issued you a document authorising

6 you to make arrests?

7 A. Yes. These powers, that authorisation, was

8 not as you said it. It was a permit to move freely

9 around the town and surrounding roads, that Maturice,

10 Apostoli, Sioux, could not stop me. He issued me a

11 certificate so that it would look like as if I was a

12 man directly responsible for him and also in charge of

13 making arrests. I mean that was a document which just

14 looked like that.

15 Q. And you were also issued with a weapons

16 permit?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Does that mean that beforehand you did not

19 have any weapons, that you were a civilian?

20 A. Well, I did have a weapon. But when the

21 troops came to Vares, like Apostoli, like Maturice,

22 like the Sioux, then, of course, yes, I was issued with

23 that.

24 Q. Very well. Let us move on to another topic,

25 and that is Stupni Do. Just a few questions to try to

1 finish as quickly as possible. If you can, I would

2 appreciate only short answers.

3 You would agree with me you went to Dabravine

4 frequently and that in October 1993, Ekrem Mahmutovic

5 was the commander of the BH army, with its seat in

6 Dabravine?

7 A. Ekrem Mahmutovic and Avdo Zubaca, the two of

8 them were commanders.

9 Q. We shall also agree that the BH army had an

10 army unit in the village of Stupni Do?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we also agree that the members of the BH

13 army from that village began to build their

14 fortifications facing the Croat villages Mir and Bijelo

15 Polje?

16 A. Well, yes, there were some trenches for

17 guards and such like.

18 Q. We shall also agree, won't we, that the

19 villagers from that village, that is, the BH army, had

20 placed a checkpoint between Majdan and Stupni Do at a

21 place called Potok?

22 A. Well, there were two checkpoints. There were

23 checkpoints some 15 metres between them. One belonged

24 to the HVO and the other one to the BH army.

25 Q. Very well. Shall we also agree that in

1 Stupni Do, about 50 inhabitants, that is, soldiers,

2 were used to defend the village?

3 A. I wouldn't say there were as many as that,

4 because in that village there were not all that many

5 men. But there could have been some 15 or 20. I never

6 counted them.

7 Q. You said explicitly, namely, in your

8 statement to the NordBat, that is, that the document

9 which we produced yesterday -- I believe it is

10 D201/1 -- under "L" that there were 50 villagers who

11 took part in the defence, and their commander was Avdo

12 Zubaca?

13 A. Yes, Avdo Zubaca. But as for the village of

14 Mir, the village of Mir could not have more than 20 or

15 30, that is, 20 or 30 soldiers, except like in every

16 other place, somebody would come from outside. So if

17 there were 50 of them, that means that some 20 had to

18 come from outside, because in the village of Mir, there

19 couldn't have been more than 25 armed guys.

20 Q. No, but I was talking about Stupni Do, not

21 about Mir.

22 A. Yes, I'm sorry, Stupni Do. I apologise.

23 Q. Can we also agree that in Stupni Do, there

24 was a BH army unit called Lasta?

25 A. I don't agree with that.

1 Q. But that is what you also told the NordBat

2 under this same point for "M", that in Stupni Do the

3 so-called Lasta were stationed and that that was a unit

4 brought from the area of Dabravine?

5 A. These were forecasts. It was believed that a

6 Sarajevo unit called Lasta was in Stupni Do, but of

7 those 20 or 30 guys -- and I said that there were 30

8 villagers from Stupni Do, 20 outsiders, and it was

9 thought that it was the Lasta from Sarajevo, but it

10 turned out not to be true. The Lasta from Sarajevo did

11 not really care about Vares at the time. They had more

12 pressing business at the moment, so that it was not

13 Lasta.

14 Q. Witness AO, before that event in Stupni Do,

15 you were seen around that village?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were spotted around Stupni Do even after

18 the event?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And NordBat, the military police of the

21 NordBat, and BH army, after you left the NordBat

22 compound, you were suspected of what had happened in

23 Stupni Do?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you in Stupni Do during the operation?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge of what

3 happened with the military operation in Stupni Do?

4 A. Direct knowledge? You first asked me if I

5 was there. I told you I was not. But since the guys

6 who were wearing black uniforms and wearing HOS patches

7 while they operated in Stupni Do, so the rumour spread

8 that I was in Stupni Do, leading one of the units, and

9 that I committed genocide, so that it could reach the

10 ears of the BH army, and the civilian police, and the

11 military police, and so on and so forth.

12 Q. Right, right. We do not have to go into

13 that.

14 Two questions related to Mr. Kordic.

15 Yesterday you mentioned that Mr. Kordic had

16 attended St. Michael's Day in the parish, and that, I

17 believe, was the 30th of September, '92.

18 A. Yes, St. Michael's, the saint of the local

19 church.

20 Q. Yes, so we agree that he was there that

21 particular day. That is not in question. What I

22 wanted to ask you is that the event is related to the

23 Ponikve Hotel. Did it happen then?

24 A. Well, it could have happened then or perhaps

25 earlier. But I know that there was a luncheon, that he

1 was up there, and that there were those conversations.

2 I was at Ponikve for a very short time, because I lived

3 some 50 metres from the Ponikve at that time. At the

4 time when Ivica Rajic and those came there, I was

5 living there.

6 Q. Very well. Now a few questions which we

7 might have as miscellaneous, other business.

8 Yesterday you said that you knew that special

9 units of the Croatian army for training were in

10 frontier places, in border places in

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Croatian army, are you saying?

13 Q. You said there were special training units?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You are saying that they were in the

16 immediate vicinity, along the border?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Near the border, that is what you said?

19 A. Well, I don't know. In Herceg-Bosna, there

20 are several border belts. It could have been the

21 border belt with the Republika Srpska, or with the army

22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or the border belt with

23 Croatia. I don't really know which one of those border

24 belts you have in mind.

25 Q. Witness AO, this is not my expression. This

1 is what you said yesterday. You, I suppose, knew.

2 A. No, I just listed the names of localities.

3 Q. My question is, were you in Busovaca at the

4 time?

5 A. I was in Busovaca not more than three or four

6 times. I went there with Miro Vrebac, Miro Vrebac who

7 commanded a unit, a special-purpose unit from Vares,

8 and with Vjeran Mijatovic, and I would come there in a

9 blue van and we would spend the night at the Busovaca

10 Hotel. It was on three or four occasions.

11 Q. I'm asking you about your visit in Busovaca

12 in relation to these forces which came to train

13 troops. Did you ever see an HV member in Busovaca?

14 A. Well, I used to see guys, because I know

15 those blokes. One's name is Mario -- I don't know his

16 last name -- who would sit down with us and offer

17 Vjeran Mijatovic to sell him a pistol. I think it was

18 quite a large-calibre pistol. So I know that bloke. I

19 think he comes from Sibenik or from Zadar, and his

20 first name is Mario.

21 Q. I see. But I did not mean an individual

22 case, one or two men from Croatia. You spoke about

23 special units, so my question is --

24 A. I was in Grude directly when the

25 special-purpose units arrived. I was also in Mostar,

1 and there too I was in a cafe where there were those

2 guys, and that is when we met them and talked to them.

3 Q. Very well. But I'm asking you a precise

4 question. So in Busovaca and Travnik, you did not see

5 those soldiers?

6 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. You must allow

7 counsel to finish his questions. These examinations

8 must be conducted with courtesy, and we expect the

9 responses to be done in the same way.

10 Now, Mr. Naumovski, have you got very much

11 more to ask this witness?

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I believe

13 not.

14 Q. But Witness AO, please try to be as brief as

15 possible. In just so many words, you said you saw

16 those soldiers in Grude and Mostar. My question is

17 will you agree that these special-purpose units for the

18 training of the Croat army you did not see in Busovaca?

19 A. Well, I told you, I told you, I was with that

20 bloke from Sibenik or Zadar, and he had the flashes of

21 the Croatian army. I mentioned Travnik because a

22 convoy of salvage, and subsequently it was called the

23 Bloody Convoy, that is what the books say today, a

24 bloody convoy, not the Convoy of Salvation but the

25 Bloody Convoy that I was with, I saw it in Travnik, and

1 you know it.

2 Q. Let me ask you, then, one question in this

3 regard. Will you agree with me that apart from those

4 individual cases, you did not see Croatian troops,

5 Croatian units, in Central Bosnia?

6 A. In the territory of Central Bosnia, you are

7 saying? In the territory of Central Bosnia, well, that

8 includes, Vares, Olovo, Kakanj, Zenica and those

9 places. I could not see them there.

10 Q. Right. But let me then ask you this: This

11 has to do with the Lasva Valley specifically, and it is

12 also a part of Central Bosnia. You did not see any

13 members of the Croatian army there, did you? Units, I

14 mean, not individuals.

15 A. Units? Well, I don't know what you mean by

16 "units". I did not see any major units.

17 Q. Thank you. You said, and that was your

18 expression, that these forces were under the umbrella

19 of the war presidency, the headquarters, and the main

20 staff of the HVO in Grude?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Just a detail. Yesterday you

23 said that Mr. Rajic enjoyed a good name?

24 A. In Kiseljak.

25 Q. No. You were asked by the Prosecutor in

1 general, and in answer you said, "Good." You did not

2 say where.

3 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the

4 witness's answer because they overlapped.

5 JUDGE MAY: Will you stop speaking together.

6 The interpreter couldn't get the answer, and it's most

7 important that everything is properly interpreted and

8 properly recorded.

9 Now, what was your question, Mr. Naumovski?

10 We'll get it down.

11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise

12 to Your Honours and to the interpreters.

13 Q. I said that you used an expression which was

14 not nice. You said that Mr. Ivica Rajic was

15 notoriously known, and that does not mean a good name,

16 a good reputation. It means a bad reputation.

17 A. Well, I was speaking about Ivica Rajic in

18 Kiseljak, and I said that he was well received there.

19 And as for Vares, where I was, I said that people did

20 not look upon him with a kind eye. And there was this

21 word, "ill-famed". Notorious, that is how it sounded

22 among the people in Vares.

23 Q. Let us move onto another subject. In

24 January, February '93, you escorted a food convoy

25 organised by a humanitarian organisation, and this

1 convoy was headed from Split to Central Bosnia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And to cross the territory controlled by the

4 HVO, the permit was issued by Anto Pejcinovic?

5 A. What year did you say?

6 Q. '93, January or February.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also claimed in your statement that,

9 according to your then instructions for the food

10 passage through Herzegovina and into Croatia, you had

11 to get a signature of somebody in Grude?

12 A. To Croatia you mean?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Well, I say I went myself and signed for

15 every passage further on. When you have full convoys

16 from Split, that we had to drop by Grude in order to

17 have our papers certified, so as to be able to go on to

18 proceed to Vares.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. A question about

20 another humanitarian convoy, if I may call it that.

21 Will you agree with me, that in '94 a priest, Father

22 Ilija Piplica, who was in Vares at that time, gave you

23 some documents so that you would provide escort for a

24 Caritas humanitarian escort from Herzegovina?

25 A. I agree.

1 Q. Will you agree with me that you went to fetch

2 it, but that this humanitarian relief did not reach

3 Croats who were accommodated in Dastansko, that is a

4 place in the Vares municipality where Croats had

5 remained until the end of the war?

6 A. I'll try to explain this now, because I see

7 that you are not properly informed. That convoy was

8 made up by Caritas, Merhamet, St. Anthony's Circle, and

9 I again have to speak about this. That particular

10 convoy was a mixed convoy, and there was even a

11 logistics centre which worked there. The convoy was

12 intended for all the population in the municipality of

13 Vares, because it was not, I repeat, it was not only

14 the Caritas convoy, or St. Anthony's convoy, but it was

15 also for the Red Cross and for the Merhamet and

16 Chahadid [phoen], and that convoy did reach Vares. And

17 all the people who lived in the municipality of Vares,

18 including villages Magolica [phoen], municipality of

19 Vijaka, Vares, Ponikve, also all the villages got that

20 humanitarian relief. Dastansko did not get it, because

21 they were boycotting us. The Croats who had stayed in

22 Vares, and those who went to Dastansko, we in Vares,

23 they called us Turks.

24 JUDGE MAY: That's enough. Now,

25 Mr. Naumovski, what's the relevance of all of this?

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I had another

2 question for the witness. Since this relief did not

3 reach Dastansko, and that was the reason why the priest

4 had authorised him to do it, did not mean an abuse of

5 that priest's trust. That goes to the personality of

6 the witness.

7 JUDGE MAY: I asked you what the relevance

8 was, Mr. Naumovski.

9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I want Your

10 Honours to gain a better picture about this witness.

11 That was the purpose of my question.

12 JUDGE MAY: So, I still don't understand,

13 what is the relevance of the evidence about a convoy in

14 relation to the witness?

15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] The abuse of

16 the trust placed by the priest who had asked him to do

17 that, and he failed to comply with that. It has to do

18 with the witness's character.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, let's finish

20 this cross-examination.

21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Just a couple

22 of questions.

23 A. Can I answer this?

24 JUDGE MAY: No. If the Prosecution want to

25 ask you anything else about it, they can.

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

2 Q. A short question. A short video was shown us

3 yesterday, and Mr. Kordic and Dobroslav Paraga were in

4 it. It was the end of '91 and early '92, that is,

5 before the Defence Council was formed?

6 A. Yes. I agree. I agree with my statement.

7 In '91, I spoke with Dobroslav Paraga, myself, and I

8 know that these were his words and that it is not a

9 forgery. I also said that it was possible that Dario

10 Kordic, in early '92, also made that statement. I said

11 that it was possible that that statement had been made

12 in late '91, or early '92.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. We won't go into

14 that. And to conclude, Witness AO, shall we agree that

15 on two occasions in October '93, you related a series,

16 a whole range of details related to events in Stupni Do

17 and Vares in the north bed?

18 A. I believe I answered that question yesterday.

19 Q. So you will agree with me?

20 A. I believe there is nothing more to be said

21 about that issue.

22 Q. And you listed the names or, rather,

23 nicknames of all the persons connected with that event?

24 A. In part.

25 Q. And shall we agree that not once did you

1 mention Mr. Kordic's name in relation to that incident?

2 A. Well, Kordic was not in Vares, and I could

3 say that it was Tom Firga -- I mentioned the names

4 which had to do with Vares and Stupni Do. I did not

5 mention Dario Kordic, simply because Dario Kordic was

6 not in Vares. He did not take -- he did not have a

7 hand in it, so why should I mention him?

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. And my final set of

9 questions.

10 A. I believe this is too much. I think it is

11 much more than half an hour. You said you would need

12 another half an hour and --

13 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It's for the

14 Judges to control the proceedings here, not you. Now,

15 Mr. Naumovski, your final set of questions.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, my final

17 set.

18 Q. Witness AO, are you testifying of your own

19 free will before this Court? Did anybody force you?

20 A. Nobody forced me to. I even did not have

21 much to do about the Tribunal. I do not know much

22 about the Tribunal. But I've heard rumours about

23 myself and certain things, and witnesses who had

24 testified before me in The Hague mentioned me, and also

25 said similar things to what you said, so that when the

1 gentleman came to the Tribunal for me, he asked me for

2 an interview, because there had been so many interviews

3 about me, in the television, in the press and so on and

4 so forth. So they had learned something, and then they

5 invited me. I was refusing this Tribunal, to talk to a

6 Tribunal because of my health, and a gentleman came to

7 see me and I refused that. And I never thought I would

8 come here. But well, I am here now.

9 Q. Very well. Witness AO, I must ask you for a

10 professional reason. Were you an associate of AID?

11 A. I first told you I didn't know what it was.

12 I mean, I heard about it, but I never worked for it.

13 It never crossed my mind to work for them. I had more

14 pressing business, so I simply had no time to it. But

15 financially I do not stand particularly well.

16 Q. My last question: Have you ever signed a

17 statement admitting that you had been in Stupni Do

18 during the operation?

19 A. Had I ever signed a statement that I had been

20 to Stupni Do? I signed a statement that I had been to

21 Stupni Do, but what contacts, with whom did I go to

22 Stupni Do --

23 Q. I asked you about the military operation

24 conducted on the 23rd of October '93.

25 A. No.

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1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

2 I have no further questions. Thank you very much for

3 your patience, and I should also like to thank the

4 witness.

5 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may just have

6 two, one minute questions.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. Not to

10 waste time, I represent here the second accused. You

11 mentioned Blaz Kraljevic, the late HOS General, and you

12 spoke about him. Tell me, please, if you know whether

13 Darko Kraljevic, who was a distant relative of late

14 Blaz, whose headquarters was in Kruscica, was he the

15 HOS commander for the whole of Central Bosnia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He was the commander, Darko Kraljevic?

18 A. No. I am saying Blaz Kraljevic. I am

19 talking about Blaz Kraljevic.

20 Q. But I am saying Darko Kraljevic. He was in

21 Kruscica; you met him?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So this part of Bosnia, Central Bosnia, was

24 the chief HOS man for Central Bosnia was Darko

25 Kraljevic, wasn't he?

1 A. Well, I didn't have much to do with him,

2 apart from those meetings when he would come to

3 Kruscica. I always communicated with Blaz or from

4 Goran from Tuzla or with Mladen, and we closed a

5 circle, Tuzla, Zenica, through Blaz Kraljevic.

6 Q. Thank you. And the western part?

7 A. Which western part do you have in mind?

8 Q. Tuzla, Zenica, you were saying.

9 A. But that other part --

10 Q. Kruscica, Kiseljak, Vitez, Travnik, Novi

11 Travnik.

12 A. I knew only some of the blokes.

13 Q. But you will agree that you met Darko

14 Kraljevic?

15 A. Darko Kraljevic, yes, I met him.

16 Q. At a meeting in Kruscica, did he attend that

17 meeting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And wasn't it said clearly there what was his

20 position, what was he?

21 A. Well, you know, HOS people did not suffer

22 from all those titles and high ranks and whatnot. We

23 all worked and we never asked who was the commander,

24 who was the deputy, who is what. We simply had tasks

25 to fulfil.

1 Q. Right. Well, then, tell me just one thing

2 more. In Central Bosnia, did HOS during the time we

3 are talking about, was it a force to reckon with in the

4 area?

5 A. HOS was the most popular force in that area,

6 and the enemy, I think, feared most. That particular

7 force.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Thank you very much.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

11 Q. I have about five or six questions for you,

12 Witness AO, most of which may be capable of being dealt

13 with by simply "yes" or "no," or a one word answer. So

14 help us, if you can, by making the answers short, where

15 you can.

16 First, you spoke of Kordic's visits to

17 various places, including Vares. On roughly how many

18 times in '92 and '93 did you see him in Vares?

19 A. Well, three to four times.

20 Q. You spoke of a number of convoys, giving them

21 names, and you also spoke of Kordic being present at

22 one of those convoys. Which convoy was he present at,

23 to your knowledge?

24 A. Well, taking part in the convoy, I think it

25 was from Tuzla to Croatia, and from Croatia to Tuzla.

1 Q. Was this one of the named convoys, or was it

2 just another convoy?

3 A. I think it was the Convoy of Salvation.

4 Q. What was Kordic doing in that convoy, to your

5 knowledge?

6 A. Well, Dario Kordic met the convoy with, I

7 think, there were three tankers of fuel in that convoy,

8 and they were sent according to Dario Kordic's orders,

9 the three tank trucks filled with fuel, and also some

10 materials for the wounded. And it was Vjeran Mijatovic

11 who introduced this equipment into the convoy.

12 Q. Next, it's been suggested to you that you

13 haven't told the Judges the truth about many matters.

14 That's what's been suggested by Defence counsel. Just

15 tell us this, what is your ethnicity?

16 A. I am a Croat.

17 Q. You have spoken of knowing other people who

18 have come to the Tribunal to give evidence. Don't use

19 any names, because they may have given evidence in

20 circumstances like you, where they have a pseudonym.

21 Have you been able to speak to other people of

22 different ethnicity about your experiences in Stupni

23 Do, and in Vares?

24 A. Well, to your first question, I heard rumours

25 that things were said about me at the Tribunal. I did

1 not contact the people. I do not know the people who

2 testified, but I heard that they talked about me at the

3 Hague. So I said, "Well, who said those things?" But

4 I never found out.

5 Q. Thank you. That's all. And you've been

6 asked about the leader of your brigade, whose name was

7 Holman. You haven't been asked about this, but because

8 it may turn up later, I just want to ask you whether

9 you know anything of a decision signed by Holman that

10 dealt with the merging of HOS and HVO. Do you know

11 anything about any such document dated the 5th of April

12 1993?

13 A. There was a proposal that such a document

14 should be drawn up. And Mr. Mladen Holman made a

15 gesture, after Kraljevic in Zenica, Holman tried to do

16 something, because in Zenica there was a small HOS

17 unit.

18 Q. That's all I need. It's Exhibit 607, for the

19 Chamber's reference.

20 Then you've been asked two questions about

21 what you said to the NordBat people. The Chamber can

22 see this on the exhibit. But before we forget the

23 point, in translation via maybe Norwegian and English,

24 in fact, how you described the armed men in Stupni Do

25 was like this. You said there were about 50 residents

1 used for defence. You didn't say specifically

2 soldiers, although you spoke of a BiH commander's

3 name. Is that your impression, that there were some

4 residents, maybe 50 residents, used for defence?

5 A. The village is small. It's a small village.

6 And I said, in my evidence -- I don't know how it was

7 translated -- that there were not as many as 50 people

8 in the village who were able-bodied for defence. There

9 just weren't.

10 Q. Thank you. And then finally the Chamber will

11 see at subparagraph S of the same document, where he

12 was being questioned by Mr. Naumovski on naming people,

13 that indeed he was only ever naming soldiers who were

14 involved, he wasn't naming other people.

15 Yes. As to the Caritas convoy, the aid

16 convoy, it's been suggested in some way that you failed

17 to honour an obligation that you had. Is there any

18 truth in that, or did you honour the obligations you

19 had, if any, to that convoy?

20 A. The gentleman said something that was

21 untrue. He said that -- well, for that convoy I

22 received a certificate of gratitude, signed by Blaz in

23 Split. It was a certificate of gratitude entitled "The

24 Bread of St. Anthony." I can get a copy of it.

25 Q. And you have spoken of other documents, a

1 file of passes in a video. If you find those

2 documents, are you prepared to forward them onto the

3 Office of the Prosecutor here in The Hague?

4 A. If what I have said so far is not enough, and

5 if the gentlemen require that documentation, I will

6 make the effort, and I will send the notes from Grude,

7 and a copy of the certificate of "The Bread of St.

8 Anthony," and whatever else the gentlemen or the

9 counsel for the Defence require.

10 Q. Yes. As a Croat, even with protection,

11 giving evidence about what happened in Stupni Do, are

12 there, in your view, risks to your health and safety in

13 giving the evidence you have?

14 A. Well, I thought I was protecting myself, but

15 I see that they know very well who I am, and where I am

16 from, and even whom my parents are, and so on. So I

17 can see they know everything about me, just as I know

18 everything about them, because Kordic said through his

19 counsel that he doesn't know me. I think it will be

20 hard for him later on.

21 Q. Is what you've told these Judges the truth or

22 not?

23 A. I have spoken my truth. I will continue

24 speaking it. I have brought a lot of evidence. I did

25 not talk about two attempts on my life in '94 and in

1 '97. You have the evidence, you have the judgement

2 made in Mostar, and Zagreb has not handed over

3 Frankovic, Bale [phoen] and all these other lads who

4 are mentioned in the documentation.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness AO. That's all I ask.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE MAY: Witness AO, I want to see if I

8 follow your evidence about one particular meeting. And

9 it's the meeting on the 20th of October 1993, in Vares,

10 at which you say that Ivica Rajic showed an order

11 signed in Grude, and that concerned the taking of

12 Stupni Do. But you also said that during the meeting

13 Ivica Rajic went out to, I think you said, the signals

14 centre. And when he came back, he mentioned Mr. Kordic

15 and General Praljak, and he supported Bozic. That was

16 as I understood your evidence. But can you clarify

17 that, so that we can follow it. What was he supporting

18 Bozic about?

19 A. Well, the document that was brought by

20 Mr. Ivica Rajic consisted of three pages. And Bozic,

21 during the conversation, decidedly tried to explain the

22 situation to Mr. Ivica Rajic, because Ivica Rajic

23 trusted Bozic but he did not trust Pejcinovic, Duznovic

24 and Gavran. So Bozic interrupted the conversation and

25 explained the strategy of Vares and Stupni Do, which

1 was in the centre. Stupni Do is about 500 metres away

2 from the centre of town, as the crow flies.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And then what happened?

4 Was it after that that Rajic went out?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE MAY: And then you say he came back and

7 he supported Bozic; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, on that topic Your

11 Honour may -- we'll obviously have to look at the

12 record, but Your Honour may be incorrect in thinking

13 that he gave evidence that the order initially spoke of

14 Stupni Do. I think he told us about how the order

15 spoke of other things and, indeed, how other places

16 were initially to be taken, and that Stupni Do came

17 into the debate later.

18 JUDGE MAY: Well, that is what his statement

19 said, but that is not as I noted it.

20 MR. NICE: Certainly. Then we'll have to

21 check the record.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 Witness AO, thank you for coming to the

24 Tribunal to give your evidence. It's now over and

25 you're free to go.

1 Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

3 Your Honour. While we are waiting for the next

4 witness, I would like to make a formal request.

5 We filed Document D201/1, but it is

6 incomplete because at least ten pages are missing. We

7 asked the Prosecution to deliver the whole document to

8 us. However, we have not received it, and there is

9 nothing else I can do but ask Your Honours to rule on

10 this. This is a document of the United Nations of the

11 11th of December, 1993. Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE MAY: Can you remember, Mr. Nice?

14 MR. NICE: I'm not sure whether we've got the

15 whole of the document at the moment and, if we have, if

16 there's any grounds for withholding any of it. Can I

17 consider that and come back? But I'm pretty sure the

18 Defence have either got all of it or all of it that's

19 of any significance. And when it's described as a

20 single document, that may or may not be true. It may

21 be a number of documents. But can I look into that and

22 come back?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MR. NICE: Before the next witness is called,

25 and I know that there's an application for protective

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1 measures that Ms. Somers will make in respect of that

2 witness, can I make the obvious point that we're under

3 considerable pressure of time to get our evidence

4 completed this week, and may I ask the Chamber to give

5 thought to the possibility, certainly for the next

6 witness, of allowing her, in large measure or, indeed,

7 even in whole, but probably in large measure, to adopt

8 her signed summary as the form of examination-in-chief

9 in order that we can move swiftly? Because otherwise

10 we'll find ourselves in a terrible position for time.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. NICE: I understand that there may be one

13 or two bits of fine-tuning on a couple of paragraphs to

14 be either amplified or corrected, but it's, of course,

15 a standard technique now used in civil cases in other

16 jurisdictions.

17 JUDGE MAY: The witness is a village witness,

18 if I'm right.

19 MR. NICE: In large part, yes.

20 JUDGE MAY: Does she give any direct evidence

21 against either accused?

22 MR. NICE: I'll let Ms. Somers deal with it.

23 She's been dealing with the witness directly.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers.

25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, the witness is

1 from the village of Gacice and deals with direct counts

2 in the indictment on human shields. And although she

3 will not necessarily name accused Cerkez by name,

4 certainly the position is clear, and it dovetails in

5 with all the other evidence that this Court has heard.

6 She is the only Gacice witness. She has some

7 points to make about the accused Kordic which have been

8 woven in, and her rather detailed description of the

9 human shields incident is significant, as well as the

10 destruction of the property in the village of Gacice.

11 There were only two matters that I would like

12 to bring to the attention of both the Chamber and the

13 Defence, in that in number 4 the name "Skopljak" should

14 be stricken. It was a confusion. We took the name out

15 in the first part, but if any name remains, it would be

16 "Santic", "Ivan Santic". And then there is a

17 correction of a name in number 33, which would read,

18 instead of "Narro", it would read "Marko Krizanovic,"

19 as the witness corrected us on.

20 As the Court may or may not be aware, there

21 has been prior testimony in the Blaskic case. All of

22 the matters herein are either taken from prior

23 statements or a brief proofing. The witness only

24 arrived mid-afternoon yesterday. Actually, I'm sorry,

25 about noon yesterday from quite a distance, and there

1 is the testimony from Blaskic from December of '97.

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, as far as the Chamber can

3 see, Ms. Somers, follow that course. If there are

4 matters which you want to expand, perhaps you can do

5 that briefly. Otherwise, the statement can be adopted,

6 and perhaps we can deal with her evidence in chief in

7 half an hour, at the outside.

8 MS. SOMERS: As the Court can see, what I've

9 tried to do is highlight the highlights from various

10 points, and that would be good. We'll try.

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

12 MS. SOMERS: May I address the issue of

13 measures?

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. KOVACIC: I will not oppose that.

16 But just one point which probably should be

17 in understanding the whole picture. I would now point

18 out that Cerkez is not indicted for Gacice.

19 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's all a matter for

20 argument. We'll hear the evidence in due course.

21 Yes. The application for measures,

22 Ms. Somers.

23 MS. SOMERS: As I mentioned to the Court,

24 this witness has testified previously, but because her

25 home was burned down in Gacice -- it was rebuilt

1 subsequently, only to be subsequently reburned, and her

2 in-laws are, in fact, living in that dwelling. They

3 were in the dwelling at the time of the second

4 burning. Although the witness has subsequently been

5 relocated to a third country, there is a substantial

6 amount of family back in the Vitez municipality for

7 whom she has, I believe, legitimate concerns. I think

8 that the mood and the temperature perhaps in Central

9 Bosnia may be somewhat volatile right now, which will

10 add, of course, to the stated reasons in the

11 application.

12 But I would ask, as the witness has asked,

13 for a pseudonym and for facial distortion, inasmuch as

14 there have been changed circumstances since she last

15 appeared here. She's perfectly happy to speak in an

16 open session.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Any objection?

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] No objection,

19 Your Honour. I would only like to ask if -- the

20 witness, as I see from the outline, in paragraphs 20

21 and 43, she mentions Mr. Kordic, whom she never

22 mentioned before, so I would like her to be questioned

23 in detail on these points, and also with relation to

24 paragraph 8. So 8, 20 and 43. Thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

2 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, Kordic Defence --

3 sorry, Cerkez Defence will not object to proposed

4 measures. Neither do we have any requests on

5 non-leading or leading questions.

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll make the order

7 as asked.

8 Can we have the witness, please.

9 Having said that, it's pointed out that, in

10 fact, we've got to the break. We have, in fact --

11 we're within minutes of the break. It may be more

12 sensible to have the break.

13 Yes. We'll have the witness after the break,

14 and I trust that her evidence can be finished as

15 quickly as possible, at least by the luncheon

16 adjournment. We'll sit again at 11.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Pseudonym for next witness

20 will be Witness AP.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

22 declaration. Could you stand up, please, to take the

23 declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

25 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

1 truth.

2 WITNESS: Witness AP

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers.

4 Examined by Ms. Somers:

5 Q. Witness AP, the Chamber and Defence counsel

6 have been advised that what has been signed by you,

7 this witness summary, will constitute your direct

8 evidence, your evidence in chief. I have made two

9 corrections, which the Chamber has been apprised of,

10 and I will briefly go through a few points and ask you

11 to identify several exhibits, and then we shall

12 proceed.

13 Witness AP, in as much as this -- the thrust

14 of your examination concerns the attack on the village

15 of Gacice by the HVO, I would ask if you could please

16 briefly identify and confirm several exhibits. If the

17 usher would be kind enough to show 1773 and 1771, Z1773

18 and 71, I will ask for a quick identification. And if

19 there are any points which you would like to explain a

20 little further, briefly, I would ask you to do so.

21 Because the name appears on the document, I would ask

22 that it not be placed on the ELMO, because of the

23 measures that are in effect. And any document that

24 bears the name of this witness, I would ask remain

25 sealed.

1 Also, for the usher's -- for the Registry's

2 benefit, this witness summary is Z1771.2. It will be

3 tendered as an exhibit.

4 Witness AP, looking briefly at 1773, can you

5 explain what this is to the Chamber?

6 A. This is a hand-drawn map of Greblje. That

7 was in the village of Gacice.

8 Q. And that is what? What is Greblje?

9 A. That is the place, the cemetery where Muslims

10 from Gacice were buried. What is drawn here by the

11 fence is actually or was actually a mass grave for

12 several corpses.

13 Q. And you have indicated in your summary that

14 there were some burials which took place by what

15 appeared to be HVO soldiers of several bodies,

16 post-Ahmici. Is this the same area in which these

17 burials took place?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you, in fact, draw this particular hand

20 diagram?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. You also mentioned, in connection with both

23 the attack in the presence of HV, or HVO and/or HV

24 soldiers, that there were several patches that you

25 observed clearly. And I would ask you to take a look

1 at Z1530 and Z2790. Are these in fact -- I'm sorry,

2 you have not been given them. I apologise. I should

3 wait.

4 Looking at these exhibits, particularly right

5 now at 1530, in the course -- in the body of your

6 summary --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Somers,

8 please.

9 MS. SOMERS: I apologise.

10 Q. In looking at the 1530 exhibit, you mentioned

11 in the body of your summary that you had seen a patch

12 bearing the name Vitezovi. Is this representative of

13 what you had seen?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It also mentioned, as is shown in Z2790, that

16 you had seen a patch bearing a "U"," which you

17 indicated was representative of Ustasha. Does this

18 photograph represent or is it representative of the

19 patch which you had seen and referred to in your

20 summary?

21 A. Yes, those patches were worn by soldiers who

22 were in Vitez. Also, on the day of the attack on our

23 village, they predominantly had these patches, HV and

24 HVO.

25 Q. If the usher would be kind enough, while he

1 is there, to show Z1763. You indicated that there in

2 the body of your summary that there had been writing on

3 the youth centre in Gacice, and that writing reflected

4 Ustasha symbols. Is this photograph -- does it

5 accurately represent what you, in fact, saw on the

6 youth centre in Gacice?

7 A. Yes. But on the other side, if you take a

8 picture from the other side of this same youth centre,

9 there is a swastika on it.

10 Q. And this has a "U" across and "Herceg-Bosna

11 Za Dom Spremni"; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Looking a bit further to some photographs

14 which represent Gacice, the Z1760, Z1761. They should

15 be at the back of the packet, I'm informed, for Your

16 Honours and for the Defence counsel. 1760, 61, 62,

17 70.1 and 70.2. There is one more, I believe. A whole

18 packet of photos. 70.3. Would you be able, going

19 through each one briefly, to indicate what they

20 represent or, if in fact they are identified on the

21 legend which accompanies them bearing your name, which

22 shall remain sealed. Refer to that, but if you can

23 refer to what these represent in Gacice.

24 A. These are Muslim houses in Gacice that were

25 burned on the 20th of April 1993. Muslim houses, all

1 of them.

2 Q. And is there a photograph of a mosque? Does

3 one of the pictures also include a mosque?

4 A. Yes. 1760, that was the mekteb that was in

5 Gacice.

6 Q. Was that the mekteb that was destroyed during

7 the attack on the village on 20 April, 1993, by HVO

8 soldiers?

9 A. Yes. On the 20th of April, yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Looking at the very -- it's

11 probably toward the back, but it's a single photograph,

12 Z1758. It is a tombstone -- that's it, Mr. Usher --

13 bearing the name Fikret Hrustic. Is this the burial

14 spot and tombstone of the individual Fikret Hrustic

15 who, according to your summary, was burned alive by

16 resisting the HVO takeover in Gacice on 20 April, 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. SOMERS: There was an exhibit, 1771.1,

19 which is a bit large, and it has an attached legend

20 bearing the witness's proper name, so I would ask it

21 remain sealed.

22 Q. If you could just indicate to the Chamber

23 that the locations are correct, and I'm sure the

24 Chamber can look at the exhibit in reading your

25 summary. Do you recognise this exhibit, and are they

1 correctly marked?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Just to bring two points to the

4 attention, point 3 is the location of checkpoints after

5 20 April. Your home is there, the location of

6 trenches, and the cemetery, and where the mosque was

7 located. And 12 would be the direction from which the

8 HVO attacked Gacice on 20 April, '93. Is that

9 accurately shown there?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. SOMERS: You indicated that you and some

12 247 civilians, Muslim civilians from the village of

13 Gacice, after the attack were forced to march to Vitez

14 proper and were placed in front of the Vitez Hotel or

15 Hotel Vitez.

16 I would ask the usher to show Z2166.2 and

17 66.1. It perhaps would be helpful if the ELMO were

18 used. I believe it's okay on this. There's no

19 identifier. There is a colour copy, if it would be of

20 assistance, Mr. Usher. I think that would assist. And

21 if you could please put 66.2 on the ELMO.

22 Q. Witness AP, looking at this particular

23 photograph, can you indicate if you see above -- the

24 word "hotel" is at the very top, the upper right-hand

25 corner, I would say, of the building. Could you

1 indicate what this is and what bearing it had on your

2 being there, what you did at this point?

3 A. This is the Hotel Vitez in Vitez. On the

4 20th of April, after the attack on our village, we were

5 all brought there, all 247 of us, in front of this

6 hotel. We sat in front of the hotel for a few hours,

7 perhaps until the late afternoon.

8 Q. And why were you put in front of the hotel?

9 What was the explanation given to you by the HVO guards

10 who brought you there from Gacice?

11 A. When we arrived in front of the hotel that

12 morning, they told us that they were being shelled by

13 the BH army and that we would be sitting in front of

14 this hotel in case it were shelled, or if they would

15 receive information -- that is to say, if the BH army

16 would receive information that we were sitting there,

17 they would not be shelling the place or they would be

18 aware of the fact that they would be shelling us rather

19 than them.

20 I was sitting in a shell crater. There

21 was -- the glass panes, rather, opposite the hotel were

22 all broken because of the shelling. In the hotel,

23 there were soldiers. In front of the hotel, there were

24 soldiers. There were lots and lots of soldiers. One

25 side of the hotel is all in glass and you can see

1 inside. You could see the soldiers that were outside

2 for a while, and then they went in.

3 While we were sitting outside, perhaps an

4 hour later they separated the men from the elderly and

5 weak. They took them to the Bratstvo i Jedinstvo

6 School in Vitez. Then women and children remained

7 there. They brought us some water and something to

8 eat. While they were giving us juice and water, they

9 were filming that. And then they stopped the filming,

10 and they took away everything they had brought.

11 Q. Witness AP, was there or did you observe,

12 while you were coming to Vitez, marching, was there

13 firing by the BH army, and once you were placed in

14 front of the hotel, as it were, as shields, did that

15 firing stop?

16 A. We heard shelling as we were going towards

17 Vitez. When we arrived in Vitez, we heard shelling all

18 around. I don't know where it came from, but they were

19 not shelling while we sat there. But we heard shelling

20 all along as we were going to Vitez.

21 Q. Were you permitted to move from that spot

22 where you were held in order to prevent the shelling by

23 the BH upon the HVO complex? Were you permitted to

24 move?

25 A. No one was allowed to move anywhere from that

1 spot in front of the hotel. They said they were

2 watching from the windows, and they could see all of

3 us, of course. They said that if anyone would move

4 from the sidewalk in front of the hotel, they would be

5 killed on the spot.

6 MS. SOMERS: I would like the usher to show

7 and to present to the witness a tabbed copy of Exhibit

8 Z505, which is recalled, and it's been previously

9 introduced and admitted. Thank you very much. It's a

10 large compilation of -- yes, it's admitted already.

11 Q. Witness AP, referring to one point in your

12 summary where you have listed names, Goran Krizanovic,

13 Boro Krizanovic, Zlavko Krizanovic, Marko Krizanovic,

14 Zarko Krizanovic, Anto Krizanovic, Ivica Matic,

15 Tomislav Matic, Ratko Matic, Zoran Bosnjak, Keka

16 Bosnjak, Joja Bosnjak, Goran Baskarad, Veno Baskarad,

17 Rajko Baskarad, Damjan Baskarad, and Stjepan

18 Krizanovic, if you see any of the names mentioned where

19 the tabs occur, would you please indicate that? There

20 are yellow tabs. If you could open them.

21 A. I can see that.

22 Q. Would you please indicate what names you see

23 on the page that's tabbed that have been read out?

24 A. Baskarad, Ivo; Veno.

25 Q. And there are probably some repetitions

1 there, but if you see different names on the tabbed

2 pages, I would appreciate your reading them out.

3 A. Rajko, Baskarad; Veno.

4 Q. If you go further, I believe there are --

5 A. Baskarad Damjan, Baskarad Goran, Bosnjak

6 Zoran.

7 Q. The last page that has a tab on it, are those

8 repetitious, or is that the end of those or the last of

9 the tabs? We'll stop there with that. Thank you.

10 Turning your attention to a point which you

11 made about Saturday, market day, prior to the Ahmici

12 massacre. You indicated that Dario Kordic had been in

13 the marketplace -- I'm sorry, in the football stadium

14 in Vitez. How did you know that Mr. Kordic was to be

15 there?

16 A. Whenever Kordic would come, people would know

17 about it in Vitez, because this was publicised. Every

18 time he came to town, it was worse and worse in town.

19 There was terrible tension. That day, when he was

20 coming, everybody knew that Kordic was coming. I was

21 going to the market that day, and I passed by the

22 stadium, because that was the shorter way for me to go

23 to the market. I knew that Kordic was there, or,

24 rather, I heard him making a speech through the

25 loudspeaker to soldiers who were in the stadium.

1 Q. You knew he was there, and then you

2 subsequently heard him over a loudspeaker. Can you

3 briefly, if you recall, address some of the things you

4 heard him say over the loudspeaker?

5 A. At the time, as I was passing, I heard parts

6 of his speech. Of course, I hurried, because I didn't

7 want to be there too long. I heard him say that, at

8 this historical moment for Croatdom and for Croat

9 history, they should fight for their independence, for

10 their rights they should enjoy. Soldiers at the

11 stadium saluted him, and he would say "Za Dom," and

12 they would reply "Spremni." They used the salute that

13 was used in Hitler's army.

14 Q. Just to be a little more precise on the time

15 frame. We say a Saturday, market day, before Ahmici.

16 This was in the year 1993, and the month of April; is

17 that correct, approximately?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, this particular bit of

20 information was asked of you only recently, is that

21 correct, in prior meetings with members of the

22 Tribunal? It was not asked of you -- it was asked of

23 you only in this meeting, is that correct, in this

24 recent one?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Turning your attention briefly to a comment

2 made to you by Boro Krizanovic about the various units

3 that were present -- it would be paragraph 38 for the

4 Chamber. Turning your attention to that. Can you

5 comment, please, a bit on how Boro Krizanovic mentioned

6 to you that the Vitezovi, as well as the 303 Split

7 Brigade and the 125 Varazdin HV units were supporting

8 the HVO attack in Gacice? What led to that

9 conversation?

10 A. Well, that morning, or, rather, in that

11 period when our village was torched, we stayed, and one

12 morning Boro Krizanovic came and he said to me -- we

13 were talking, actually, and I asked them how they could

14 do such terrible things, because, after all, we were

15 neighbours who only until yesterday had lived

16 together. And he said that for them it was very

17 simple, really. That it was easy for them to take our

18 village because they were assisted by the 125th and the

19 303rd Split Brigade, and that they were obeying orders

20 only. If they were to be told that we should all be

21 killed, that's what they would do. And if they were to

22 be told to have us all exchanged, that's what he would

23 do.

24 Q. Boro Krizanovic was then a member of the

25 military units or of the armed forces known as the HVO?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You also mentioned, as is referenced in

3 paragraph 43, that you had come at one point in your

4 time, in Bosnia, to shake hands with Dario Kordic.

5 Could you explain the circumstances under which you had

6 that personal contact?

7 A. Yes, I do remember it. That day President

8 Tudjman from Croatia came to attend the inauguration of

9 the hospital in Nova Bila, and Kordic came to prepare

10 the ground for President Tudjman. He arrived in a

11 helicopter on that day. At the time I was working for

12 UNPROFOR, and we also came to see to it that the

13 president's car, in which he was to ride from the

14 smaller airfield to the hospital -- that was when I met

15 Kordic. And the officer I was working for at the time

16 approached Kordic, shook hands with him, and so did I

17 shake hands with him. And we talked about what else

18 needed to be done for the president's visit, as we

19 could not provide a car which would be suited for the

20 president, because we did not have an armoured car. He

21 was very disappointed and very angry that we had not

22 found a better car for him.

23 Q. Can you indicate, please, in what capacity

24 you were working for UNPROFOR at that time, and for how

25 long you worked for UNPROFOR and/or its follow-up units

1 in Bosnia?

2 A. I worked at the British Battalion as a -- the

3 interpreter, and I was some three years with them.

4 Q. For the Chamber's benefit, and for counsel,

5 the prior reference to the market day was found in

6 paragraph 20. I apologise for not having given it at

7 the time. Excuse me just one second.

8 There are two more points I would like to

9 wind up with. One, is I would like to ask the usher,

10 which I should have done at the beginning, if he is

11 available, just to show on a piece of paper, and

12 without your saying other than "yes" or "no," a name,

13 your true name, and it will be passed up. Not saying

14 out loud. Could you indicate "yes" or "no" in the

15 microphone.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And lastly, in as much as this will

18 constitute the evidence, is everything that you have

19 indicated in this witness summary true, to the best of

20 your knowledge and belief?

21 A. It is.

22 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. No further

23 questions.

24 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If I may,

25 Your Honours. With your leave, the Defence of

1 Mr. Cerkez should like to start first with

2 cross-examining the witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] We have

5 agreed on that between us. Thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness AP, I

8 apologise for addressing you so, but this is only for

9 your safety sake. My name is Goran Mikulicic, and with

10 my colleague Kovacic, I defend the second accused in

11 this case.

12 Witness AP, you gave several statements to

13 the investigators of The Hague Tribunal, and among --

14 in other cases on the 21st of October '94. Before

15 that, did you give any statements to some other

16 authority? Could you remember?

17 A. I do not know which authority you have in

18 mind.

19 Q. I am asking you that, because in your first

20 statement of the 21st of October 1994, it says that

21 before that you had already given another statement?

22 A. Possibly, but I just don't remember.

23 Q. Oh, I see. Very well. Witness AP, your

24 village, the village you lived in at the critical time,

25 that is the former half of 1993, as far as you can

1 remember, what was the size of its population and what

2 was its ethnic structure?

3 A. It was almost 50/50 of Muslims, Bosniaks and

4 Croats, and there was one Serb family.

5 Q. Would you agree with the figures provided by

6 a person who worked for your local office for 18 years,

7 we shall not name him, but he has your surname, who

8 says that there were 378 inhabitants in '96; 169

9 Bosniaks -- 169 Croats, 206 Bosniaks, and three Serbs.

10 A. I could not say that.

11 Q. But until these events, the relations in your

12 village were all right, weren't they?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the strain became -- the division began

15 to show in '93, in the first half of '93, and at that

16 time you split into two units, and one was Bosniak

17 Muslim, and another one Croat?

18 A. Yes, but the tension or, rather, the

19 division, the rift began to be felt even before 1993.

20 Q. Witness AP, do you remember if any joint

21 village guards were organised by both?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. However, later on they were also divided, and

24 the Croats guarded the Croat part of the village and

25 the Bosniaks, the Bosniak part of the village?

1 A. The Croats were mostly in the youth centre,

2 that is where they kept their weapons, in the cellar of

3 the building, and they were mostly in the centre.

4 Q. You mentioned that sometime in late '92, in a

5 way, a Croat language was imposed on the school?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us what language did the

8 Croats in the village speak?

9 A. In my village they spoke Serbo-Croatian.

10 Q. And what language did the Bosniaks speak in

11 your village?

12 A. The same.

13 Q. In your view, what is the difference between

14 the Bosniak and the -- the Bosnian and the Croat

15 language? Can the people speak in their own language

16 and still understand one another?

17 A. If they want to understand one another, then,

18 yes, they can understand one another.

19 Q. Would it be true if we said that apart from

20 slightly different tenses and some difference in

21 synonyms, that there is no difference; that they are

22 one in the same language, with some variations?

23 A. Practically.

24 Q. Witness AP, you mentioned that at that time,

25 and I am referring to the latter half of 1992, the

1 Croats began to display their flags?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that is a flag with a chequerboard coat

4 of arms?

5 A. That is the Croatian flag, the flag of the

6 state of Croatia.

7 Q. Witness AP, do you know the difference

8 between the flag of the Republic of Croatia, its state

9 flag, and the flag of the Croatian community of

10 Herceg-Bosna? Do you know the difference between the

11 two?

12 A. Well, not now, but I'm sure I knew it at the

13 time.

14 Q. So the Croats associated their sentiments

15 with that flag, with the chequerboard?

16 A. In the town of Vitez, the Croats introduced

17 the currency of the state of Croatia --

18 Q. No. No. We shall come to the currency. I

19 am asking about the flag.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the other hand, the Bosniaks associated or

22 rallied around the flag which had lilies?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And again, on the third side, do you know

25 that the third entity rallied around the flag, which

1 was different for both of those two?

2 A. Yes, possibly, but one could not see it

3 hoisted up, either the Serb or the Bosniak flag. You

4 could only see Croat flags around.

5 Q. Right. But the three entities in Bosnia all

6 rallied around their respective flags, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You lived in the village, and of course you

9 knew very many people? You knew your neighbours, you

10 already mentioned them, and amongst them you also

11 mentioned Boro Krizanovic. Do you know that man?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Right. Tell me if, in view of the relations

14 in the village, was he known as a person who was rather

15 prone to drinking?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Witness AP, you mentioned in your statement

18 that you had seen a large hole, a large trench, which

19 seemed to have been dug by an excavator. You mentioned

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you also said that you remembered seeing

23 some bodies buried in that trench?

24 A. Yes, but it was not a trench. It was more of

25 a collective grave. It was about two metres by forty,

1 about half a metre deep.

2 Q. Do you remember when did you see that, what

3 day it was, in relation to the attack?

4 A. I remember it must have been either towards

5 the end of April or, rather, the very end of April or

6 at the beginning of May.

7 Q. Witness AP, if I told you that a villager of

8 your village, and he was also the TO commander in the

9 village, said to The Hague investigators that Boro

10 Krizanovic and Darko Kraljevic had shown him, on the

11 23rd of April, that it was empty and they covered it

12 up, what would you say to that?

13 A. I don't know anything about that, but I saw

14 with my own eyes how they put bodies in it.

15 Q. Witness AP, do you know, what kind of weapons

16 did the village guards have?

17 A. What side do you mean?

18 Q. I mean the Bosniak side.

19 A. They had some Kalashnikovs and some hunting

20 rifles.

21 Q. Do you know how many people had weapons?

22 A. I don't know, but I know that very few of

23 them did, and they had Kalashnikovs which they

24 received -- which they had received from the TO at the

25 time when they went to wage war against the Serbs.

1 That is, when they would come from the front, some of

2 them brought Kalashnikovs back home. But since there

3 was a shortage of weapons, they had to leave them

4 behind for other soldiers who were going to fight the

5 Serbs.

6 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I'll wait for

7 the interpretation.

8 Q. Do you know, Witness AP, and how would you

9 comment on the statement of the same gentleman, that

10 is, the TO commander who said that there were also two

11 mortars in the village and that, on the Bosniak side,

12 there were some 38 rifles? Is that what you would

13 recall?

14 A. I don't really know that.

15 Q. In that part of the village to which the

16 Bosniaks had retreated, were there any fortifications

17 built there or some trenches or bunkers?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And that same gentleman that I mentioned said

20 that some trenches had been dug and that there was a

21 bunker in the centre of the village.

22 A. The trench had been dug in the centre of the

23 village under the house of Hasim Hrustic.

24 Q. And at the time of the attack itself, how

25 many men were there in the village; do you remember

1 that?

2 A. You mean able-bodied? Well, there could have

3 been 25 of them, perhaps.

4 Q. And do you know that some men, with their

5 weapons, retreated into the forest during the attack

6 and a certain number of men also surrendered to HVO

7 soldiers?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you then agree with me if I said,

10 quoting what your husband had said, that he was among

11 those who withdrew to the forest or the woods, that

12 about 40 men had gone into the forest and some 15 had

13 surrendered to the HVO? It is correct?

14 A. I don't know how many were in the forest. I

15 only know I saw a group of men there, and my husband

16 was one of them, and I believe there were about 15 of

17 them.

18 Q. And that he said that there were 40 of them

19 is not correct?

20 A. What I'm saying is not that it is not

21 correct. I simply saw a group in which he was for one

22 side from that house.

23 Q. Oh, I see. I'm sorry. So this unfortunate

24 attack took place, and it really inflicted a great evil

25 on you and your neighbours, and you said that the

1 gentleman we mentioned in the beginning and that he was

2 a gentleman prone to drinking, and it was also said

3 that some units from Croatia took part in that attack.

4 And you told us straight that it was a unit of the

5 303rd Split Brigade and the 125th Varazdin Brigade. If

6 I told you that these brigades were nonexistent, that

7 there were no such brigades and that that simply was

8 not true, how would you comment, in view of the source

9 from which you had learned that?

10 A. I don't know if they existed legally, but I

11 am positive that units from Croatia did come to us.

12 Why would Boro invent the names of those units, I don't

13 know.

14 Q. But you draw your knowledge from what Boro

15 had told you?

16 A. Yes, people who were in the village that day

17 and before, and we speak different -- we use different

18 accents so we can distinguish between ourselves, who

19 comes from where.

20 Q. Right. You also said that Vitezovi units

21 took part in the attack. Do you know who their

22 commander was?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know who Darko Kraljevic is?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Is that the individual who took you and sent

2 you to the Hotel Vitez in Vitez?

3 A. I do not know Darko Kraljevic. I've never

4 seen him. Perhaps he was in the group. I just don't

5 know, and I wouldn't be able to recognise him.

6 Q. So perhaps this was wrongly noted in the

7 transcript. When I asked you if you knew Darko

8 Kraljevic, you said, "Yes."

9 A. No. I heard about Darko Kraljevic, but I do

10 not know him personally.

11 Q. I see. Witness AP, let me ask you

12 something. You gave us the names of your neighbours

13 whom you recognised in the attack, and you also said

14 that you heard the speech. The way the people spoke

15 made you conclude that they did not come from that

16 place. Could you conclude also that they perhaps came

17 from outside, from Herzegovina?

18 A. Among those people, there were quite a number

19 of people whom I did not know from our area and also

20 other people I did not know who spoke in a different

21 accent, and it was my guess that they came from

22 Herzegovina.

23 Q. Witness AP, are you familiar with the village

24 of Garici?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And in relation to the village of Gacice, how

2 far is it? Aren't they really adjacent, adjoining

3 villages?

4 A. Practically, yes.

5 Q. You mentioned also somebody called Kreso

6 Garic, and you said that you never met that man?

7 A. Yes, that I did not see him before. But I

8 did meet him.

9 Q. Did you see that person participate in the

10 attack on the village?

11 THE INTERPRETER: We could not get the answer

12 because the answer overlapped with the question.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you remember the uniform?

15 A. I know that he had a helmet. I know that he

16 had a bullet-proof vest, and I know that he had a

17 camouflage uniform.

18 Q. Could you see the patch on the uniform?

19 A. I don't remember, believe me.

20 Q. Witness AP, we talked about and I mentioned

21 to you that the TO commander in the village referred to

22 those events, but he never said anything about seeing

23 members of the Croatian army, that is, soldiers from

24 the Republic of Croatia, in the attack on the village,

25 as Boro Krizanovic told you.

1 A. I saw with my own eyes soldiers with HV

2 patches on that morning when the village was attacked.

3 Q. How many of them did you see?

4 A. I did not count them.

5 Q. Were they those men from Herzegovina or

6 perhaps other people who spoke your local accent?

7 A. Some of them had a different accent. A

8 couple of them spoke the same way that we do.

9 Q. Witness AP, have you heard of cases, of

10 instances, that people from your village or the

11 surrounding area went to Croatia to join in the

12 struggle against the JNA units at the time when the war

13 broke out in Croatia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you also know that those people

16 subsequently returned to Bosnia when the war broke out

17 there?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Witness AP,

20 thank you very much for your answers.

21 Your Honours, I have no further questions.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

23 Your Honours.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

25 Q. Witness, please allow me to introduce

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1 myself. I am Mitko Naumovski, a lawyer from Zagreb.

2 With Mr. Stephen Sayers, I represent Mr. Dario Kordic.

3 I will ask you only a few questions, because

4 Mr. Mikulicic, as counsel, has already asked you quite

5 a number of questions that I had envisaged. Just a

6 couple of details related to that unit which was in

7 your part of the village.

8 An individual called Nihad -- I won't mention

9 his name -- he also had a walkie-talkie, not only a

10 weapon; isn't that so?

11 A. I wouldn't know.

12 Q. That is what you said in the case in which

13 you testified before on page 4384. There's an

14 inconsistency between your earlier testimony and this

15 one. That is, it wasn't a conventional radio station,

16 it was a walkie-talkie, wasn't it?

17 A. Possibly.

18 Q. My question, in point of fact, was will you

19 agree with me that he used it to communicate with his

20 leaders in Stari Vitez?

21 A. We did not communicate with anyone. On that

22 day when we were attacked, we simply could not

23 communicate with anyone.

24 Q. It is an important point and I'm asking you

25 questions related to Mr. Kordic, so perhaps we could

1 move on to that.

2 Witness AP, will you agree with me that, in

3 point of fact, you never heard Mr. Kordic utter any

4 threat over the media; specifically, to utter a single

5 threat in relation to the events in Ahmici in October

6 '92?

7 A. He never said that he would attack Ahmici.

8 But, yes, he did invite his people to rally for

9 defence.

10 Q. And you never heard Mr. Kordic say in public

11 that Darko Kraljevic or somebody else was responsible

12 for the truck bomb in Old Vitez, in Stari Vitez?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And you never heard him use a deprecating

15 expression, a belittling expression, when addresssing

16 Muslims?

17 A. I never heard him say anything nice about

18 Muslims, because from his speeches that he regularly

19 delivered on radio and television, he always addressed

20 the Croat people, never anybody else. He always spoke

21 about historic boundaries to be defended. He also

22 mentioned how he went to Zagreb to meetings.

23 Q. Witness AP, what you are telling the Court

24 now, in answer to my question, is something that you

25 don't know directly. You never heard that personally?

1 A. Of course, I did.

2 Q. I put it to you, because when you made your

3 statement to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal on

4 the 25th of October, '94, you said, "I never heard

5 Mr. Kordic speak. I never saw Mr. Kordic on television

6 deliver a speech."

7 A. I never listened through his entire speech.

8 I only heard fragments of his speech.

9 Q. Well, this says, "I never heard him speak

10 personally."

11 A. I never listened to him deliver a speech,

12 yes.

13 Q. In view of what you stated earlier to the

14 investigators of the Tribunal, I concluded that you

15 thought and assumed that Mr. Kordic's visits in Vitez

16 had to do with tensions in Vitez?

17 A. Well, we more or less knew when Kordic would

18 come, and, yes, tension mounted every time Kordic

19 came. My Croat neighbours, people I used to work with,

20 would say afterwards, "Kordic was at such and such a

21 place last night," for instance.

22 Q. Tell me, please, a few questions about this

23 incident that you spoke about, and which, according to

24 you, happened on Saturday preceding the event in Ahmici

25 in 1993.

1 A. That was a Saturday, yes, one of the

2 Saturdays before Ahmici, yes.

3 Q. I don't understand you. The first Saturday

4 or one of?

5 A. One of. One of. One of the Saturdays. I

6 don't remember exactly which.

7 Q. But could you then specify the month?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Are you sure that it was in 1993?

10 A. Yes, I'm quite sure it was before Ahmici. I

11 do not know the exact date or the exact time, because

12 at that time we did not know that Ahmici would happen.

13 So I didn't try to memorize it.

14 Q. Yes. But it would be important for us to

15 know. Shall we take the new year as the reference

16 point. Was it before the new year of 1993 or after

17 that? Could you tell us that at least?

18 A. I believe it was after it, but I really am

19 not positive about it. I do think so, though.

20 Q. You said that you were going to the market,

21 because it was the market day, Saturday, and that you

22 walked past the stadium. And you could see how many

23 people there were in the stadium and what was going

24 on. It was not fenced off or anything like that. We

25 agree on that?

1 A. There was a fence, yes. But, yes, you could

2 see from one side. You couldn't see everything that

3 would be going on there, but you could see it quite a

4 lot. You could see some of the stands.

5 Q. And tell me, please, if there was the

6 so-called official stand there, something with the days

7 and things like that, you know, for events of that

8 kind?

9 A. I don't really remember.

10 Q. Do you, perhaps, know what kind of an event

11 it was, or what had occasioned it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I mean, Vitez is not a big town, so news

14 spread about.

15 A. No, I do not know what kind of event it was,

16 because events were a frequent occurrence.

17 Q. Could you please tell us how many people were

18 there? Did you see those who were present?

19 A. No, I didn't see all of them, but I saw some

20 of the stands, and I heard a lot of voices saying, "For

21 the homeland." More than 100, I am certain. A lot of

22 voices.

23 Q. You are mentioning the stands for the second

24 time. Were the people saying this greeting, this

25 salute on the stands?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you see Mr. Kordic yourself?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So you are basing your conclusion that

5 Mr. Kordic spoke, because you recognised his voice?

6 A. And by what we were told later by our

7 Croatian neighbours, that Tudjman was there, that he

8 had a good speech, that he spoke wonderfully, and so

9 on.

10 Q. You mentioned President Tudjman. I have not

11 come that far yet. I am dealing with that market

12 Saturday, and the event on the stadium. Who was it who

13 told you that Mr. Kordic was there on that day?

14 A. I can't remember at the moment who it was

15 that told me, but I know that afterwards everyone

16 talked about it, the Muslims and the Croats, and the

17 Muslims spoke in fear of saying that Kordic was

18 coming. And the Croats just spoke about it in a normal

19 manner, without fear, that he had come.

20 Q. So, if I understand you correctly, you are

21 basing your conclusion that Mr. Kordic was there on

22 what you heard people saying in Vitez?

23 A. Yes, the voice which was recognisable and

24 what people told me. Yes.

25 Q. But would you agree with me that according to

1 your own knowledge, you cannot exclude the possibility

2 that it was a radio?

3 A. It's possible, but I don't know why so many

4 people would talk about something if it was just a

5 radio broadcast.

6 Q. For how long were you able to listen to this?

7 A. On the road to Vitez, you could hear this

8 for, I don't know, about half an hour.

9 Q. And you listened?

10 A. I didn't listen. I was walking along the

11 road, and as I was walking, I was able to hear.

12 Q. For a few minutes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Tell us, Witness AP, do you know about other

15 events that took place on that same stadium from your

16 own knowledge?

17 A. There were frequent events. Do you mean in

18 connection with the war?

19 Q. No. No. I am talking about the period

20 before the war broke out in Travnik.

21 A. Well, singers used to come there. There were

22 matches.

23 Q. I meant something else. I meant: Do you

24 know that HVO soldiers took their oath there, and that

25 this happened in the summer of '92?

1 A. Right now I cannot recall precisely, but I do

2 know that the oath was taken on the stadium.

3 Q. This event, which we cannot locate in '92 or

4 '93, could it have been this oath-taking ceremony I've

5 just tried to remind you of?

6 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was a different

7 event, but I am not 100 percent certain.

8 Q. So we agree that you allow the possibility it

9 was the oath-taking ceremony in '92?

10 A. It's possible.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us talk just

12 briefly about this Witness AP. You gave four very

13 extensive statements three times to the investigators

14 of this Tribunal, and once you were a witness in

15 another case?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In these four statements, which are very

18 extensive, you never mentioned this detail. Do we

19 agree?

20 A. I was never asked about it.

21 Q. But today, in reply to a question by the

22 Prosecutor, you said that you mentioned this for the

23 first time now, because you were asked about it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But who knew that you knew about this?

1 A. I was making a statement. We were going over

2 it again, and I spoke of what I know. Perhaps it was

3 not interesting before, so it didn't enter any record.

4 Q. Yes, I understand. But during the

5 examination-in-chief, we said it was before the events

6 in Ahmici, and now we say it might have been in August

7 '92.

8 A. I think it was before. I think it was closer

9 to April, but I cannot be 100 percent sure.

10 Q. So you cannot be sure it was not in August,

11 as we said --

12 JUDGE MAY: There is no need to keep

13 repeating this, Mr. Naumovski. We have the point.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I have just

15 finished with this, Your Honour.

16 Q. I have just a few more questions, Witness

17 AP. Just a little more patience, I will be finished

18 very soon.

19 This event, which was to be organised by the

20 United Nations, for which you were working, and that

21 was to organise safe passage for President Tudjman. Do

22 you remember that? Do we agree that this was

23 immediately before the war; that the Washington

24 Agreements had just been signed, and that it was soon

25 after this? And do we agree that the security

1 situation was still not good? We can say it was risky,

2 from the viewpoint of the U.N. organisers?

3 A. President Tudjman passed only through the

4 Croatian part, through no other parts.

5 Q. There is no answer in the record to my

6 previous question, that the U.N. had the task of

7 organising free passage for President Tudjman. Do we

8 agree?

9 A. We went in a car to get a car for Tudjman.

10 Q. If I understand correctly, Mr. Kordic was not

11 satisfied, for security reasons, with the quality?

12 A. No. But the car was dirty for the

13 President. It wasn't clean enough.

14 Q. But, as regards security, it was suitable?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And one more question. I have not had time

17 to study in detail the new outline, which we received

18 with your statement. So just one further question. In

19 your previous statement, when you testified, you spoke

20 of the Vance-Owen Plan, and that it was explained by

21 Mate Boban on television. Do you remember?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, Your

24 Honour, that is all for the Defence of Mr. Kordic.

25 Thank you. And I would like to thank the witness.

1 MS. SOMERS: I am aware of the time push and

2 just a couple of questions.

3 Re-examined by Ms. Somers:

4 Q. Witness AP, was this the same Boro Krizanovic

5 referred to in cross-examination, who in point number 7

6 of your summary told you and your husband that he hated

7 Tito, and if so, if you can briefly tell us why he said

8 that; what was the point?

9 A. Boro Krizanovic on that day came to our shop

10 and said that he hated Tito because he made Muslims a

11 nationality. He said we were not a nation, that we

12 were not people, and that we did not deserve to be a

13 nationality, and that it was Tito's fault.

14 Q. Did he appear to be sober at the time, and

15 did this comment worry you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes, he was sober; and, yes, you were

18 worried?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. A point was raised about the various

21 neighbours, whom you recognised, and whose names were

22 read out to you. There was one neighbour named Goran

23 Krizanovic. Did Goran Krizanovic present himself fully

24 to you, or did -- how did you know it was Goran

25 Krizanovic at the time of the attack on Gacice?

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1 A. Goran Krizanovic, on that morning when the

2 village was attacked, was wearing a black stocking over

3 his head. And one of the soldiers there told me, or

4 told him, "Why do you want that stocking on your head?

5 There will be no balijas here. Soon we shall kill them

6 all." And he took the black stocking off his head, and

7 I saw that it was my neighbour.

8 Q. This is the point mentioned in number 33 of

9 your summary.

10 You were asked --

11 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours. I am sorry, but

12 I object on such line of questioning. The presentation

13 was, on the beginning, that this statement is going

14 into the transcript as a part of the transcripts. We

15 asked on the cross-examination what we had to, and now

16 it is repeating indeed what is said. It is just kind

17 of clarification, without any additional. Just making

18 unnecessary impressions and wasting of time.

19 JUDGE MAY: Any more questions, Ms. Somers?

20 MS. SOMERS: Just one, Your Honour.

21 Q. You were asked about Kreso Garic, and it was

22 put to you that certain people from Croatia would come

23 back when the war in Bosnia started. Is this the same

24 Kreso Garic that in point 35 said he came back, having

25 lived in Zagreb for the past 18 years, came back

1 specially only for this action, and immediately after

2 this action would be returning to Zagreb? Is this the

3 same Kreso Garic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Last question. Although you had never

6 personally been at rallies where Mr. Kordic spoke, had

7 you personally -- had you heard him on the radio

8 before?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. SOMERS: No further questions. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Witness AP, that concludes your

13 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

14 Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. You are

15 released.

16 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your

17 Honour. If you would allow me, I would like to ask to

18 go into closed session for just a moment so that for

19 the record I can say the names of the persons I was

20 referring to when putting questions to the witness. I

21 did not wish to do this in open session, because of the

22 protection of the witness.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that can be done. If we go

24 into closed session.

25 [Closed session]

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, Mr. Lopez-Terres will

15 take the next witness. But just before he does, can I

16 set the timetable as I see it, and make a couple of

17 observations about procedural matters.

18 There are some outstanding procedural matters

19 to be dealt with, but the next three witnesses are

20 witnesses who, for various reasons, it's important we

21 conclude before the end of tomorrow, and preferably

22 fairly early tomorrow, if that's possible. They have

23 travel plans and one thing and another, to which they

24 are committed.

25 Therefore, might it be convenient to see what

1 stage we've reached by the end of this afternoon and

2 then, perhaps, have ten minutes of your time reviewing

3 outstanding procedural matters and how it's proposed to

4 deal with them, whether by oral argument or by skeleton

5 arguments that we can submit.

6 And then we can pick up the evidence again

7 tomorrow morning. And if we get through these three

8 witnesses in good time tomorrow, that will be six out

9 of a total of nine accomplished, and that's -- that

10 still gives us an outside chance, I think, of

11 concluding the evidence by Thursday and certainly by

12 Friday.

13 As to this forthcoming witness, again,

14 subject to the views of the Chamber and any

15 observations of the Defence, he has not only prepared a

16 summary, but has signed it, as to its truth. And so it

17 may be possible to some extent, in whole or in part,

18 for that to stand as his evidence. If that's a way of

19 saving time, when time is particularly precious. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE MAY: Any observations about that?

22 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, just one. When

23 there was a similar discussion between the parties on

24 the planning of the rest of the witnesses at a certain

25 point a couple of weeks ago, I informed the Prosecutor

1 by my letter of February 5th, under item 3. And if I

2 may just repeat it: "For more accurate planning please

3 be aware that I will need a great deal of time for

4 cross-examination of witness --" he will be open or

5 could I use a name "-- of Sulejman Kalco, since there

6 are a couple of documents and audio tapes related to

7 the witness," et cetera.

8 Because at that time, in February, the

9 Prosecution also draw up some kind of plan in which

10 Kalco was squeezed in one morning or so. So I felt

11 obliged at that time to make my statements clear, my

12 intention clear, and the Chamber will, of course,

13 understand that since we are not having the boss of

14 this witness, Mr. Djidic here, as a witness, then, of

15 course, this witness, Mr. Kalco, is quite an important

16 witness for my client.

17 So I don't want to be squeezed in last moment

18 and pressured by a time.

19 JUDGE MAY: Let's not waste any more time.

20 Let's see how we get on. Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Your

22 Honour, the witness did not ask for any protective

23 measures. I would simply say to you that the witness

24 during 1996, had a brain concussion, and ever since

25 that point he has some problems with speaking. And he

1 may be tired. So if the questions go on for too long.

2 He has some problems. But he is prepared to answer any

3 questions that you would like to ask.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

7 declaration.

8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] We are in

9 public session; is that not correct, Mr. President?

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

11 declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

13 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

14 and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: SULEJMAN KALCO

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a

18 seat.

19 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

21 MR. KOVACIC: If the proofing document will

22 be used during this examination, I would like to point

23 out certain points which should not be lead, if I may;

24 item 3 to 6, 14, 21, 24, 27, 48 to 50, and 57 to 59.

25 Thank you.

1 MR. SAYERS: And from the perspective of

2 Mr. Kordic's Defence, Mr. President, we would

3 appreciate if there would be no leading on paragraphs

4 23, 36, and 51 to 53 of the offer of proof. Thank

5 you.

6 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Are you, in fact,

8 Mr. Sulejman Kalco, born in 1942 in Donja Veceriska, in

9 the municipality of Vitez?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are you currently retired from the Bosnian

12 army and live in Stari Vitez; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Kalco, before you appeared today, did you

15 discuss matters with the OTP, during which a summary of

16 your statement was drafted and you signed the summary

17 as being your own; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Kalco, during the conflict in Bosnia, you

20 had the rank of major and you were the deputy commander

21 of the BH army in Vitez, and your commander, your

22 superior, was Sefkija Djidic; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Before the war, did you already know the

25 accused Mario Cerkez, with whom you worked at the

1 Secretariat of the People's Defence Office in Vitez and

2 then at the Slobodan Princip Factory, where Mario

3 Cerkez was a chauffeur, is that correct, a chauffeur

4 for you, a driver; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. I worked with Mario in the Vitez

6 municipality; after that, in the Princip enterprise,

7 where he handled materiel, technical equipment, and

8 drove a car.

9 Q. What type of relations did you have at that

10 time with Mr. Cerkez?

11 A. We were good friends. We were colleagues at

12 work.

13 Q. Did these relations deteriorate or stop at

14 some point?

15 A. Well, they didn't stop but deteriorated after

16 the HVO and the army of B and H were established.

17 Q. Mr. Kalco, while there was a conflict that

18 was about to take place on Croatian territory, did the

19 Vitez Croats receive any kind of military training

20 during that conflict?

21 A. Yes. They went to Herzegovina. Some went to

22 Croatia for military training.

23 Q. As far as you know, did the accused Mario

24 Cerkez belong to that group of people who were trained

25 in that way?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know the names of any other people

3 among the Croats in Vitez who received that type of

4 training?

5 A. There was Kraljevic, Bertovic, and many

6 others.

7 Q. Do you know whether the accused Mario Cerkez

8 left Vitez at some point in order to go to the front

9 against the Serbs, the front in Croatia?

10 A. He was absent. But where he was, I don't

11 know, in the conflict against the Serbs.

12 Q. And at that time, was there a conflict with

13 the Serbs in Croatia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember how long he was gone?

16 A. I can't say exactly, but probably a month or

17 two, maybe more.

18 Q. Were other Croats from Vitez gone during that

19 same period, gone along with Cerkez?

20 A. There were others from Vitez and from Central

21 Bosnia; from Travnik and Novi Travnik, Busovaca,

22 Kiseljak, Kresevo and Kakanj.

23 Q. And when those Croats from Central Bosnia

24 went away, what interpretation was given to that

25 absence by the Muslims who were living in Vitez?

1 A. Well, they interpreted it rightly, because

2 they went to join the Croats against the Serbs; that

3 is, against the JNA.

4 Q. During the spring, specifically in April,

5 April or June of 1992, were there any meetings in Vitez

6 whose purpose was to organise a common army between the

7 Muslims and the Croats?

8 A. Yes, there were. These meetings were held,

9 but the Croatian side always protected the HVO as the

10 main force because they were in the majority there.

11 They were better armed, better equipped, and they

12 thought that they could have the main say in those

13 forces.

14 Q. Could you tell us the names of some of the

15 people who participated at the meetings, the meetings

16 to set up a joint army against the Croats? I'm

17 speaking about on the HVO side.

18 A. There was Franjo Nakic, Mario Cerkez, Ante

19 Bertovic, Pero Skopljak, Ivica Santic. And on the

20 Bosniak side, there was Sefkija Djidic, Ramiz Dugalic

21 and I, Hakija Cengic and others.

22 Q. In the period that we're speaking about, that

23 is, the second half of 1992, what were the specific

24 functions that the accused Mario Cerkez had in Vitez?

25 A. He was the commander of the municipal office

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1 for defence of the HVO.

2 Q. Did Cerkez have a superior at that time?

3 A. For the municipality of Vitez, he did not.

4 He was the main person for the HVO.

5 Q. What was the specific function of Marijan

6 Skopljak at that time?

7 A. He was in the ministry or -- what was it

8 called -- the defence office of Vitez. He was head of

9 that office there.

10 Q. That Marijan Skopljak, did he have any

11 command responsibility over Mario Cerkez?

12 A. I think that in the military sense, he did

13 not. He was supposed to send men to Mario's unit, and

14 he had other tasks as well; to give approval for

15 explosives and the like to be transferred from Princip

16 to other municipalities or to other areas.

17 Q. Is it true that Mario Cerkez, in the

18 municipality of Vitez, was the military commander for

19 all units stationed in that municipality?

20 A. Yes, he was commander of the units of the

21 municipality of Vitez. But there were other units as

22 well from the outside, so he was probably not in charge

23 there. This was the seat of the Operative Zone of

24 Central Bosnia.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, it's now half

1 past 12. Is that a convenient moment?

2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Perhaps

3 one further question with a document, if you would

4 allow it.

5 Q. I would like to show you a document,

6 Mr. Kalco. This is Document Z221, dated 19th of

7 September, 1992.

8 Do you have that document dated 19 September

9 1992 in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This document is signed by the accused Mario

12 Cerkez; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As far as you know, what were the special

15 units for which the accused Mario Cerkez was asking

16 provision of equipment in that month of September 1992?

17 A. Vitezovi, Jokeri, and many other units for

18 special purposes, for sabotage in that area.

19 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Thank you

20 very much. I think that we can stop at this point,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now for an hour and

23 a half.

24 Mr. Kalco, could you be back, please, at 2

25 for the rest of your examination, and could you bear in

1 mind not to speak to anybody about your evidence until

2 it's over, and that does include members of the

3 Prosecution.

4 2, please.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.0 4 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, we understand

3 that the witness at the moment cannot be located.

4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

5 Apparently, he is in the building. We are looking for

6 him. I'm not sure what happened.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. In order to conserve

8 time while he's being brought, it might be sensible to

9 look at the administrative matters.

10 MR. NICE: Yes, a sort of general mixed bag

11 of things to be discussed at some stage.

12 We noted the hearing in respect of one of the

13 document-producing bodies we've been pursuing, but I

14 don't think there is a hearing listed for the other

15 one. Not for the federation.

16 JUDGE MAY: I think there is, is the answer.

17 If you make inquiries, it can be dealt with.

18 MR. NICE: Thank you. Outstanding for

19 resolution between the parties, if resolution is

20 required, is the Kiseljak binder. That's ready, I

21 think, to be dealt with. And the videos, I think

22 that's ready to be dealt with, certainly, by tomorrow.

23 So far as exhibits are concerned, we've

24 served the Defence with a list of exhibits which, in

25 light of Your Honours' ruling last week, we understand

1 now to be produced. Perhaps I can just explain one

2 thing about the exhibits that were being produced, and

3 our understanding of what we were doing, in case it has

4 any effect on any of the outstanding witnesses.

5 The body of exhibits that were being produced

6 in that way, were exhibits that weren't being produced

7 by individual witnesses. I think the position

8 technically remains that witnesses -- that there is no

9 duty to produce exhibits ahead of the time when a

10 witness gives evidence. And, typically, of course, a

11 witness comes along and produces an exhibit. That may

12 yet happen here, on one or two occasions, but I'm not

13 quite sure.

14 So far as the exhibits are concerned, there

15 are two matters that we would like to -- one matter we

16 would like to raise. And we've given the Defence

17 notification of this. And it may be as well to flag it

18 up now with the Chamber, and then perhaps discuss it

19 tomorrow.

20 The Chamber has ruled out some Professor

21 Cigar exhibits. The matter wasn't fully argued by

22 Mr. Scott, nor, indeed, I think fully addressed by the

23 other side. I quite understand the Chamber did what it

24 did, but I think our position is as follows. I know

25 what our position is. The argument excluding Cigar's

1 report was premised on the basis that the material he

2 looked at was material that a Tribunal, in fact, could

3 itself look at; that his conclusions were not expert

4 conclusions, but were conclusions at which a Tribunal

5 of fact, without expertise, could reach. And that was

6 an argument that was, I think, adopted by the Chamber,

7 in part or whole, in its exclusion of Cigar.

8 In consequence, what we did was to serve all

9 of the documents that Professor Cigar had himself

10 relied on, immediately after that ruling, in order to

11 allow the Chamber to work on the material, if in due

12 course we invited it to do so, as part of our

13 submissions, to reach conclusions of the same general

14 type as those reached by Professor Cigar.

15 So that we would argue that the exhibits, the

16 appendices, and whatever they are of the Cigar report,

17 once detached from the report, simply become admissible

18 exhibits, as they mostly fall within the same

19 categories of admissibility touched on by the Chamber

20 in its other rulings, and therefore should be available

21 to the Chamber for its consideration in due course.

22 That --

23 JUDGE MAY: So I can follow that. This is

24 the four additional ring binders which were attached to

25 his report, is it? Or are they exhibits on which we've

1 ruled?

2 MR. NICE: No. The position is that they

3 are -- if it's four ring binders, it's four ring

4 binders attached to his report. As a matter of fact,

5 it's quite a lot of duplication, and a lot of the

6 documents he relies on, but not all, have been produced

7 elsewhere. But, yes, that's the application.

8 And it's an application that was inevitably

9 to be made, in light of both the application to exclude

10 the report itself and the Chamber's ruling on its

11 ability to reach conclusions of the general type that

12 the Professor reached on the material of the general

13 type he relied on.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, I

15 think that that is not exactly what the Trial Chamber

16 said about the report from the so-called expert, that

17 is Professor Cigar. What we said was that we must draw

18 the conclusions that he is suggesting be made. And,

19 therefore, it's not the evaluation, but, rather, an

20 assessment of the facts, a kind of judgement being

21 made, which is part of the Trial Chamber's

22 jurisdiction. It's not that we might not have reached

23 the same conclusions using the same documents. That is

24 not quite what we said. We said it's not part of

25 expertise, because most of the evaluations and

1 assessments are assessments that fall under the

2 Chamber's authority, once it had reviewed all the

3 evidence that we are reviewing, and the Chamber will

4 draw some conclusions. That's what we said. It's not

5 quite the same thing.

6 Now, I don't see how you can tell us, since

7 you do not accept the conclusions of Professor Cigar,

8 because -- you just can't take the documents now and

9 make your own conclusions, and then reach the same

10 conclusions that he did. That doesn't seem to me to be

11 very orthodox type of reasoning, if I can express

12 myself that way.

13 Therefore, I think that the system of the

14 documents, if documents have to be introduced, would

15 have to go through any -- the same procedure as any

16 other documents. We can't just go around the decision,

17 which was reasoned. And the reasons given was so that

18 it was not an evaluation, but rather conclusions that

19 come under the discretionary jurisdiction of the

20 Chamber and of the Judges sitting in this case. That's

21 what we said.

22 MR. NICE: I don't think we're very far

23 apart. And I didn't say that it was exactly the basis

24 of your conclusion, although it was very substantially

25 the basis of the argument. And, of course, I'm very

1 careful not to say you would reach the same conclusions

2 as Professor Cigar, because that's not what I said.

3 But it seemed to us, from the ruling that the Chamber

4 was giving, that the Chamber was saying, "These are the

5 conclusions of the type that are ours," and, in part or

6 in whole, you were saying, "And the material upon which

7 the professor worked is exactly the sort of material --

8 part of the material that we are able to rely on

9 ourselves. We don't need an expert to interpret it."

10 And with that in mind, we argue that you

11 simply must have access to that material, some of which

12 is, you know, very valuable and it's got particular

13 points to it, and you've got to have access to that

14 material in order to be best equipped to make the

15 various factual findings that in due course you will,

16 no doubt, be called upon by your duties to do. But I

17 was very careful not to say you were going to make

18 either the same or different decisions from Professor

19 Cigar, and I haven't said this is a way of getting

20 around that and saying it is either his conclusions or

21 it's not his conclusions.

22 Once his report goes, then what you're left

23 with is the material, the type of material he had to

24 rely on and all the other material, and the processes

25 of reasoning that the Judges have to reach their

1 conclusions.

2 We will, of course, argue for whatever

3 conclusions we think it is appropriate to argue for on

4 the material. We may privately be guided by what

5 Professor Cigar told us, but that's a matter for

6 later.

7 JUDGE MAY: I have certainly not understood

8 the ruling in any way to suggest that we were admitting

9 any part of the report or the exhibits. The ruling was

10 to exclude everything.

11 And, Mr. Nice, there comes a time when this

12 sheer volume of material makes life impossible, and I

13 venture to think that that time is now coming. We've

14 ruled on the matter and, speaking for myself, I don't

15 propose to reopen it.

16 MR. NICE: Can I speak up on one thing, I

17 think?

18 As to your ruling, your ruling was to exclude

19 the report. That we understood. And it was because we

20 didn't understand you to be letting in the exhibits or

21 anything like that, it was because of that we served

22 them separately and separately numbered thereafter. So

23 our position has always been clear.

24 Your Honour says that there comes a time when

25 the material becomes unmanageable, effectively. As you

1 will appreciate, we are careful to say, in presenting

2 material to you, not that you're going to have to

3 consider all of it -- of course not -- but that it has

4 to be available as the library upon which the Chamber

5 can draw in due course at the selection that we will

6 make to assist you, and no doubt the Defence as well.

7 I have to say, one of the things I thought of

8 right at the beginning of the case was, were it

9 possible, to assemble the complete library, howsoever

10 large, and provide it to everyone, and to work on that

11 literally as a library upon which people could draw; a

12 sensible way of doing research and reaching

13 conclusions. Our procedures don't allow for that. We

14 have to introduce things.

15 But it remains our position that material of

16 the type that could lead a person like Professor Cigar

17 to the various conclusions that he did is exactly the

18 sort of material that a tribunal of fact should have

19 available to it and material from which it can draw, at

20 our invitation, the invitation of others, or even at

21 its own instigation.

22 JUDGE MAY: There's also, of course, the

23 material in the international armed conflict binders,

24 another four, which we have yet to rule upon, and we

25 have yet to hear the presentation. Now, I imagine that

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1 that is going to cover much of the same ground.

2 MR. NICE: There is a considerable overlap of

3 the documents in the Cigar report and the documents

4 elsewhere, so it's not four additional binders. It

5 just happens that they were selected for those

6 purposes.

7 And although, yes, your rooms or room would

8 be physically burdened with four more files, they may

9 be rarely, if ever, turned to. But probably they would

10 be turned to, but rarely rather than necessarily

11 frequently.

12 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness is now

13 ready.

14 At the moment, I speak for myself. I'm

15 against you. If there is some particular document you

16 want to have produced, why then you can refer to it.

17 But --

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Just to say to you,

19 Mr. Nice, that if there is some documents in Professor

20 Cigar's materials, some material which you think it's

21 important for your case, you can introduce it in

22 another opportunity, either through your own

23 submissions -- for example, you can introduce some

24 documentation to the Chamber, but you cannot say you

25 need a library. If we need a library, we can make our

1 own or do our own research by ourselves. We know how

2 to make research. Be sure that you can make it, but

3 there is a difference between library documentation in

4 general and the system of evidence, which has to obey

5 specific rules.

6 And I agree with the President. We have

7 ruled on it, the whole thing, the whole -- the

8 expertise, the report, and the documentation, and we

9 cannot always, because it's not the first time you've

10 asked us for that, return and rerule again on something

11 we ruled on. That means that we decided on it, but we

12 can introduce it through another -- if there is another

13 opportunity for you.

14 MR. NICE: Well, I'm heartened by Your

15 Honour's explanation of our ability to raise documents

16 in argument, and we'll, of course, do that.

17 But perhaps now is the time for the witness

18 to come and give his evidence.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness, please.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kalco, I should have said

22 this to you before, but if at any time you want a

23 break, if you don't feel well or something like that or

24 you feel overtired, then say so and we'll have a short

25 break.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I'll try

4 to move rather quickly over paragraph 7 through 14,

5 because apparently they are not being contested by the

6 Defence.

7 Q. Mr. Kalco, is it true that the accused Mario

8 Cerkez, after having been the chief of the municipal

9 headquarters, Vitez, became the deputy commander of the

10 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, which at that point had two

11 battalions of about three to five hundred men, one in

12 Vitez and the other in Novi Travnik?

13 A. That's right. Mario was deputy commander of

14 the Malbasic. There was also a battalion from Vitez at

15 that time in Novi Travnik.

16 Q. And starting in 1993, Mario Cerkez was

17 appointed chief of the brigade of Vitez which had been

18 newly established.

19 I would like to show you a document so that

20 you could make some comments to us about it and tell us

21 whether it corresponds to what actually happened in

22 respect of the various functions that the accused

23 exercised. That is Z567. 567. This is a document

24 dated 24 March 1993, signed by Colonel Blaskic.

25 A. Yes. Yes.

1 Q. Mr. Kalco, do the indications, which refer to

2 the various functions that Mario Cerkez had, as

3 expressed in this document, is that correct?

4 A. That's right. Appointed commander of the

5 Viteska Brigade in Vitez. And before that he was

6 commander of the municipal headquarters of the HVO

7 Vitez and commander of the Tomasevic Novi Travnik

8 Brigade, with its seat in Novi Travnik. And up here is

9 a signature, Mario Cerkez, that he signed this

10 particular order or, rather, appointment --

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Kovacic --

12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I am just

13 wondering if there is any confusion with the

14 documents. This document is now entered under Z

15 number. It has already been tendered under D number as

16 Defence document a week ago. Indeed, I have it here,

17 but in this moment I cannot find it. So there is no

18 sense that we are having the same documents, one is a Z

19 document, one is a D.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let us not spend time on this.

21 For the moment there can be two. And you can tell us

22 the number of your exhibit in due course. Yes.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In the second part of 1992 -- you can put

25 aside the document, Mr. Kalco. Thank you. In the

1 second half of 1992, the discussions for the

2 establishment of a mixed brigade under the command of

3 Rebihic, and Djidic as the deputy, continued. It was a

4 question of creating a brigade with 1,000 soldiers,

5 which would come from each of the ethnicities, that is

6 1,000 Croats and 1,000 Muslims. Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct. That was the agreement that

8 was reached between Ivica Santic, Pero Skopljak, Franjo

9 Nakic, Mario Cerkez, on the one hand; and on the other

10 hand, Sefkija Kajmovic, that is Munib Kajmovic, and

11 other Bosniaks as well. This brigade was supposed to

12 prepare for the defence against Chetnik aggression or,

13 rather, JNA -- that is to say the JNA army. This

14 brigade was never actually established due to Croat

15 obstruction. So this brigade mainly existed on paper

16 only, with good wishes of the Bosniak side. And as for

17 the Croat side, I think this was just manoeuvreing,

18 intended to fool the other side.

19 Q. The purpose of the HVO, if I understand you

20 correctly, was simply to get in the Muslim numbers of

21 that brigade under its own control; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. From the very first moment of the

23 army's attack on Croatia, and afterwards on

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, when HVO units and BiH army units

25 were established, the basic objective was for the BiH

1 army to be placed under HVO control, because they were

2 better prepared, better organised. They had had front

3 lines in Croatia, in Herzegovina, so they wanted

4 throughout, the Croat side, the HVO, to be the mainstay

5 of defence in the Vitez municipality.

6 Q. Thank you. We can move to another point

7 now. On the 21st of May 1992, a BiH army soldier, his

8 name was Samir Trako, was killed in Vitez. And at that

9 time the military police commander for the Vitez zone,

10 Pasko Ljubicic, told you that the military police would

11 investigate the killing. The requests that had been

12 made by the BiH army in respect of that investigation

13 were never answered, or at least there was never any

14 result from that?

15 A. Exactly. The soldier Trako was in Kruscica.

16 That unit was supposed to go to the Sarajevo-Visoko

17 front on the 21st of May 1992. He stopped at the Vitez

18 Hotel. They didn't let him get into the hotel. They

19 didn't let him and a friend of his get in. HVO

20 soldiers fired at him, I don't know who killed him, but

21 Trako was shot dead, and his friend was wounded. There

22 was a joint commission on which Ramos Dugalic was on

23 behalf of the BiH army, and on behalf of the HVO it was

24 Pasko Ljubicic, and other Croats. They made a report.

25 They ascertained what the situation was. And a day or

1 two later I phoned Pasko to see how much light had been

2 thrown on this event.

3 JUDGE MAY: I am going to interrupt you,

4 Mr. Kalco.

5 Mr. Lopez-Terres, we've already had evidence

6 about this particular incident. Unless there is

7 anything particular you want to ask the witness, I

8 suggest we move on.

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Kalco, at the time of the murder on the

11 21st of May 1992, who was the commander of the military

12 police, the local commander in Vitez?

13 A. It was Pasko and it was Ivan Budimir.

14 Q. Who was Ivan Budimir's superior?

15 A. I think that Pasko was his superior.

16 Q. Did the accused, Mario Cerkez, have any

17 command connection or command authority over Ivan

18 Budimir?

19 A. Yes, he was his commander, his superior.

20 Q. I would like to clarify that point. The

21 direct commander of Budimir, was that Mario Cerkez or

22 Pasko Ljubicic?

23 A. Mario Cerkez.

24 Q. Do you have no information about the identity

25 and circumstances of the perpetrator, perpetrators of

1 the murder of Mr. Samir Trako? Do you know the person

2 named Perica Vukadinovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This Perica Vukadinovic was a soldier, was a

5 member of the Vitez Brigade, and who, according to the

6 information that you obtained, he was involved in

7 committing two murders during the night of 19 --

8 November 1992 in Krusica, when two Muslims were killed,

9 and a third one was gravely wounded; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct. He was killed and -- I have

11 it written down over here -- and wounded.

12 Q. Perhaps we don't need the name. Thank you.

13 As regards those two murders, and the wounding of the

14 third one, you spoke to Pasko Ljubicic, who told you

15 again that the HVO would investigate, and would punish

16 those responsible for the crime. As far as you know,

17 was that investigation ever carried out, and were the

18 people responsible for it ever punished?

19 A. The investigation was not carried out fully.

20 We have heard from people who survived in the cars that

21 Vukadinovic shot and killed two men and wounded a third

22 one. I talked to Pasko a few times, asking him how far

23 the investigation had gone, and whether the murderers

24 were found. He said that everything was underway, that

25 they do not know what the actual situation was, so

1 that's what things were like then. And we never

2 realised who committed the killings and the wounding,

3 and whether the perpetrators were punished or not.

4 Q. Mr. Kalco, are you confirming that

5 Vukadinovic, his superior was Mario Cerkez?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 Q. On the 18th of October 1992, Mr. Kalco, were

8 you informed that HVO forces coming from Kresevo,

9 Kiseljak, Fojnica and Busovaca, were going toward Novi

10 Travnik in order to help the HVO forces in Novi

11 Travnik, and you were given the order from the 3rd

12 Zenica Army Corps to block those forces in Ahmici; is

13 that correct? Could you tell us why the HVO wanted to

14 take the city of Novi Travnik?

15 A. The HVO had an explosive factory in Vitez.

16 The HVO was supposed to have a weapons factory, and

17 that was the one in Novi Travnik that made guns and

18 mortars and other things. Lendo was commander of the

19 defence of Novi Travnik. He refused the demands of the

20 HVO, to have the factory handed over, and there was a

21 conflict between the HVO and the army.

22 We received orders from the zone headquarters

23 in Zenica, afterwards this was the 3rd Corps command,

24 to keep the HVO forces for as long as possible, those

25 that were progressing from Busovaca, and that came from

1 Kresevo, Fojnica, Kiseljak, Busovaca, to prevent their

2 advancement into the Stari Vitez municipality.

3 We made a barricade. We made it impossible

4 to go down the Sarajevo-Travnik road, that is to say,

5 we made it impossible for these HVO units. There was

6 gunfire as well, and within our own ranks only one

7 young man was killed. He was 15 or 16 years old. I

8 don't know whether there were any casualties on the HVO

9 side and how many, if any. So the Novi Travnik forces

10 were consolidated, and they made a real defence. So

11 they did not allow the HVO forces to take the Bratsvo

12 Factory in Novi Travnik.

13 I think that Ahmici, on the 16th of April

14 1993, paid for all of this, that is to say, paid for

15 the fact that this brigade was stopped in October

16 1992.

17 Q. We'll go back to April 1993 a little bit

18 later. On the 19th of October 1992, discussions began

19 between yourself and the representatives of the HVO,

20 and the representatives asked you to take down the

21 roadblock. Could you tell us, in a few words, what

22 negotiations were that were carried out, and what was

23 the role played by Mario Cerkez, the accused Mario

24 Cerkez, during those negotiations?

25 A. Mario Cerkez was commander of the Viteska

1 Brigade and in a military sense --

2 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, simple as that.

3 We have never been given the notes and the witness is

4 using his notes. We would like to see it.

5 JUDGE MAY: What are these notes,

6 Mr. Lopez-Terres?

7 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I suppose,

8 if Mr. Kovacic is referring to the journal that the

9 witness is looking at, I would like to reassure

10 Mr. Kovacic that the Office of the Prosecutor, no more

11 than the Defence, has had access to those notes, and

12 the witness has clearly stated to us that he did not

13 want anybody to have access to those journals.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kalco, are these journals

15 which you made at the time, these notes which you are

16 looking at?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Yes, these are my

18 personal notes concerning these events from 1992 until

19 the end of the conflict with the HVO.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Kovacic, that's

21 the answer. The Prosecutor hasn't seen them either.

22 Do you object to the witness looking at the notes?

23 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. That was exactly my

24 intention.

25 JUDGE MAY: Why do you object? He made the

1 notes at the time, he said.

2 MR. KOVACIC: I think that if the witness is

3 talking about what have happened before six or seven

4 years ago, and he is refreshing his memory with the

5 notes, then we are entitled to see the notes. Of

6 course, both parties. Or he should not consult his

7 notes and then we are not entitled to see the notes.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres.

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Shall I

10 continue?

11 JUDGE MAY: Respond, if you please, to the

12 point Mr. Kovacic makes.

13 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I question

14 the witness from the point that I realised -- when I

15 met him for the first time, that is, Sunday, noticed

16 that he had brought some documents with him, and I

17 could say that in each order of this Trial Chamber

18 calling for the appearance of a witness, it says that

19 that person should have documents with him when he

20 comes, and I assumed that he had these notes. I asked

21 him questions about the journals. Realising the

22 Defence don't have access to them, I forbid myself from

23 having access myself.

24 As I already said, the witness clearly

25 pointed out to me that these were personal documents

1 and that he did not want the Office of the Prosecutor

2 or the Defence to have access to those personal

3 journals.

4 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, if I may present

5 Mr. Kordic's perspective, apparently this witness gives

6 particular testimony certainly about Mr. Kordic on

7 specific dates, and we would join in the request of

8 Mr. Kovacic to have the notes disclosed to us, expunged

9 from any purely personal material, of course. But to

10 the extent that they concern my client, there are

11 contemporaneous entries made by the witness concerning

12 the testimony that he's going to try to give today,

13 which concerns remembrances of events seven or eight

14 years ago. We certainly would submit that we're

15 entitled to see those contemporaneous notes, because

16 they should be the best version of what he remembers.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kalco, do I take it that you

19 do not wish to hand over your notes to either the

20 Prosecutor or the Defence?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

22 I do not want to because these are my personal notes,

23 and on the basis of these notes, I am writing a book of

24 my memories so that that which happened should not be

25 forgotten, and I do not want the Prosecution nor the

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1 Defence to see my notes.

2 JUDGE MAY: Now, the rule here is this: that

3 if a witness refers to notes, then they must be handed

4 over. There is an exception to this extent which we

5 have made: that we have allowed witnesses, of course,

6 to remove personal matter from notes, because if they

7 are personal notes, obviously they shouldn't be handed

8 over. But if they are matters which go to the evidence

9 in the case, that is a different matter and there is a

10 duty to disclose them because it goes to the truth of

11 the evidence.

12 Now, the position is this: that if you wish

13 to refer to your notes, then in due course they must be

14 handed over, with you having the right to expunge

15 material which you don't want seen. But if, on the

16 other hand, you don't want to hand them over at all,

17 then you must go on without looking at the notes.

18 Now, it's a matter for you, which course you

19 take, Mr. Kalco. Would you be prepared to hand over

20 the notes if you had the opportunity of removing

21 personal and private material first or do you wish to

22 go on without the notes?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

24 I'm not giving anyone my notes. I shall make due

25 without any notes.

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Kalco, before this intervention of

4 Mr. Kovacic's, we were speaking about the events of the

5 19th of October, 1993, and the various negotiations

6 which you participated in personally in Vitez and in

7 which Mario Cerkez also participated.

8 Could you tell us, in a few words, how those

9 negotiations developed and what the role was of Mario

10 Cerkez, the accused, during those negotiations?

11 A. After HVO units were prevented from going to

12 Novi Travnik, there was a meeting at the post office,

13 in the basement. That is where the joint

14 communications centre was during the times of the

15 previous system.

16 At that meeting, in addition to myself,

17 Sefkija Djidic, there was also the imam from Vitez,

18 Ivan Mestrovac. And on the Croat side, there was Mario

19 Cerkez, Pero Skopljak, Ivica Santic. At that meeting,

20 it was agreed that all barriers and barracks be removed

21 on the territory of Stari Vitez.

22 Minutes were also taken at that meeting. And

23 at the meeting itself, at its end when the minutes were

24 being signed, there was heavy gunfire in Vitez. It

25 could be heard approximately from the place where the

1 logistics of the BH army was.

2 I was the first to run out of these rooms,

3 but I could not go any further because the HVO soldiers

4 were there, those who were guarding the entrance.

5 Among them was Grabovac and Vinko as well. So I could

6 not go to see what had happened. Strong gunfire could

7 be heard from the site where our logistics was.

8 I was the only one who did not sign the

9 minutes. I didn't do this because I was revolted.

10 While we were talking, they attacked our logistics. I

11 asked Santic and Mario and Skopljak, "What is this?"

12 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt.

13 Mr. Lopez-Terres, we must get through this

14 evidence more expeditiously. Unless there's a

15 particular matter you want to raise about the meeting,

16 perhaps you could go to it and deal with that

17 straightaway, and then move on.

18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I've got a

19 comment first. It seems to me that the witness moved

20 directly to the facts that had happened on the 22nd of

21 October, 1992, and the agreement he's speaking about is

22 the 22nd of October, 1992, and therefore we have not

23 yet mentioned what happened between the 19th and 22nd

24 of October, 1992. That is paragraphs --

25 JUDGE MAY: Go to the point, please.

1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Yes, yes,

2 all the more so since Mr. Kovacic objected to the

3 reading of those paragraphs.

4 Q. Before the ceasefire agreement on the 22nd of

5 October, which is the one that you've just spoken to us

6 about, Mr. Kalco, you had the meeting on the 19th of

7 October at the post office that you spoke to us about.

8 I would like you to tell us what happened between the

9 19th and the 22nd of October, specifically in respect

10 of the negotiations during which exchanges took place,

11 and during which also there were telephone calls that

12 were made, and during which the accused Dario Kordic

13 was consulted.

14 A. I understood your question, so let's

15 proceed. I do apologise for having omitted to mention

16 this date.

17 We had an agreement with the HVO to have the

18 barricade in Ahmici removed. Mario Cerkez was at that

19 meeting. Also there was Ivica Santic, Pero Skopljak,

20 myself, Sefkija Djidic. It was agreed that we could

21 not do this until we received such orders from Zenica.

22 After that, in the evening, at the insistence

23 of Ivica Santic, Mario Cerkez came to the -- as well as

24 Ivica Santic, came to the headquarters that was in the

25 high school. There were 12 members of the Armija and

1 the civilian government.

2 At this meeting, they insisted that we let

3 the HVO go towards Novi Travnik. We didn't want to

4 hear of it. There were threats that were made, and

5 also suggestions were made to the effect that the

6 municipality would burn if we did not allow that.

7 Mr. Ivica Santic walked up to the telephone,

8 and he made a call to Novi Travnik. He called Kordic,

9 and he said -- and he told him about our meeting.

10 Kordic approximately said that this had to be observed,

11 that units had to get to Novi Travnik, that Santic or,

12 rather, Mario Cerkez should carry this through.

13 I did not hear the telephone conversation,

14 nor did any of us hear this telephone conversation.

15 However, at the end of this telephone conversation,

16 Ivica Santic said that he had received orders from

17 Kordic and that he and Mario had to obey those orders,

18 because what Boban was in Herzegovina and all of Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina, that is what Kordic was for Central

20 Bosnia. He was the man in charge for Central Bosnia.

21 Since the meeting had not been concluded, at

22 the insistence of Dr. Franjo Tibolt we held a meeting

23 in the morning. There were about 15 employees of the

24 medical centre there, as well as I, Sefkija, Sliskovic

25 and Mario Cerkez. We did not allow the removal of the

1 roadblocks then, and Mario said, verbatim, that the

2 municipality would burn down, that it would be

3 massacred, and that as far as the situation in the

4 municipality is concerned, it is the BH army that is

5 going to be responsible because it did not let HVO

6 units pass to Novi Travnik. That is approximately what

7 this conversation was like.

8 After that, about 55 minutes after this

9 meeting, the attack on Ahmici started, and during the

10 night --

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

12 A. -- after the meeting --

13 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Lopez-Terres, can we

14 move on, please?

15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Kalco, during the period that you are

17 speaking to us about, you were forced to leave the

18 headquarters that the Bosnian army was occupying, and

19 you had to go to Stari Vitez; is that correct?

20 A. It is. We had to leave --

21 Q. Please be brief. Were you attacked at the

22 headquarters, and could you tell us which units

23 attacked you at that headquarters?

24 A. We were attacked by Kraljevic's troops and

25 Mario. They fired a shell, a Zolja, from a house. It

1 went off the target or, rather, it did not hit that

2 particular room. Had it hit it, it would have killed

3 12 members, representatives of Bosniak authorities,

4 army and others.

5 After that, four more shells fell between the

6 two schools, that is the elementary and the secondary

7 school, between the secondary school and the Bratsvo I

8 Jedinstvo elementary school. And we had to retreat

9 through the auxiliary playground in Vitez to Old Vitez,

10 and we had to do it during the night-time and in the

11 early hours of the morning.

12 Q. A little bit later, that is in November, on

13 the 23rd of November 1992, you participated in a

14 meeting, which took place in Travnik, and during which

15 General Praljak was invited, as well as General

16 Jaganac, where you continued to speak about the setting

17 up of a joint army. A seven-day time period was set

18 for the local commanders to set up the joint army, but

19 ultimately that time period was never honoured and, in

20 the end, the agreement never came about; is that

21 correct?

22 A. It is. It was as you say. But it did not

23 come about because the HVO did not want that. General

24 Praljak and Jaganac brought a joint seal with the lily

25 and the chequerboard, so that it would serve both

1 sides, and gave us seven days to organise the army from

2 Gornji Vakuf to Kiseljak. But that was not done during

3 that period of time. General Praljak was a General of

4 the Croatian army. He had the insignia of the Croatian

5 army.

6 Q. During your responsibilities, Mr. Kalco, as

7 part of your responsibilities, did you meet any other

8 Croatian Generals in Vitez?

9 A. Yes. After the HVO attack on the 16th of

10 April, a team of BiH army came, Sefer Halilovic, Rasim

11 Delic and Vehbija Karic. And the Croat side was

12 represented by General Petkovic. He was also a General

13 of the Croatian army, and he had the insignia of the

14 Croatian army. A Colonel of the Croatian army, Andric,

15 he also had the insignia of the Croatian army.

16 Filipovic. They made a tour of Stari Vitez, and then

17 we went to the old hotel --

18 Q. Just a moment, please. We'll come back to

19 those. Excuse me for interrupting you. Did you also

20 have the opportunity to meet another General in Vitez,

21 another Croatian army, who was a HVO commander at that

22 time, General Roso?

23 A. I thought I would come to that later.

24 Mr. Roso was with the British general. And after the

25 conflict ended, between the BiH army and HVO, several

1 days later, they entered Stari Vitez. I had no drinks

2 to offer them, except rum, so we had a glass of rum and

3 coffee. I wasn't --

4 Q. If you allow me, Mr. Kalco. We don't have a

5 great deal of time. We'll move to another point.

6 In February 1993, you were informed that a

7 crime had taken place in Nadioci, that was the murder

8 of Mr. Esad Salkic. The person who was designated as

9 the person who had committed the murder was Miroslav

10 Bralo, who was also known as Cicko. After that crime

11 had been committed, did you see the accused, Dario

12 Kordic, on the -- on television speaking about that

13 case?

14 A. Yes, true. The murder happened and the local

15 television showed. And I saw Mr. Kordic, who said that

16 all the investigation will be conducted about the

17 murder committed by Bralo, and that it will be

18 conducted in line with the laws of Herceg-Bosna. Some

19 five or six days later, I saw, with my own eyes, Cicko

20 in Vitez driving a car, which meant that he was not --

21 he had not been detained, that no investigation had

22 been conducted. And there were also other people who

23 saw him in Busovaca, which means that he did not spend

24 a single day in prison, nor was any punishment meted

25 out to him.

1 Q. In the beginning of April 1993, having

2 learned that Mr. Bralo was moving about freely, you

3 questioned Mr. Cerkez and his deputy, Saljevic, and

4 they said they would try to get some information, but

5 you never received any information at all; is that

6 correct?

7 A. It is according to them. But they did not

8 know either what had happened to him. They did not

9 know, or refused to give information. And they said

10 that in a few days they would let us know what was the

11 situation with Bralo. But after that the attack took

12 place, so that we did not establish or, rather, they

13 never provided us with any information about Bralo.

14 Q. Mr. Kalco, so far as you know, was Miroslav

15 Bralo a member of the brigade that was under Mario

16 Cerkez's command?

17 A. He did. He did. Yes.

18 Q. Between the 31st of March and the 11th of

19 April 1993, did you receive information from your

20 intelligence staff, according to which about 350 HVO

21 soldiers from Travnik and Busovaca, travelling in buses

22 and vans, had deployed in the Vitez area and

23 specifically in Veliki Mosunj, Krusica and Zabrdze; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is. There were about 300, 350

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1 intelligence officers. And those people were billeted

2 in Veliki Mosunj, in the mountaineer lodge at Zabrdze

3 in summer cottages, and also in Kruscica.

4 Q. Did you also have information from those same

5 intelligence people, information according to which the

6 HVO had set up artillery, mortars in several occasions,

7 and that therefore they were in a position to cover the

8 entire Lasva Valley; is that correct?

9 A. Quite so. From Prahulje, to Nova Bila,

10 Pjescara, Stari Bila and Gradina, Zabrdze, and other

11 localities in the direction of Busovaca. They deployed

12 their artillery, that is mortars, and guns, so that it

13 covered the area from Nova Bila to Busovaca or, rather,

14 Kaonik. They had it all under their control and they

15 could attack or, rather, fire -- take the aim and fire

16 at Zenica too.

17 Q. On the 10th of April 1993, during the night,

18 you were called by the accused, Mario Cerkez, who told

19 you that one of the officers in his brigade, that is

20 Ivo Sucic, had been stopped and mistreated in Stari

21 Vitez by soldiers from your unit. You verified matters

22 and concluded that there had never been any arrests of

23 Sucic, and in any case, he had not been subjected to

24 physical violence. Is that correct?

25 A. It is. Ivo Sucic -- and I know him very

1 well, and he knows me too. On the 10th of April, and

2 that was the day of the independent state of Croatia,

3 that is of the World War II, and that day the Croats by

4 and large marked as the day of the former independent

5 state of Croatia. Ivo Sucic was drunk. He must have

6 stopped somewhere to drink, and we have not found that

7 any member of the BiH army or the population ever

8 arrested Ivo Sucic, nor did he bear any traces of

9 beating. He was simply all covered in dust, because he

10 was simply very drunk and he rolled in the dust.

11 Q. I would like to show you a document, which

12 deals with that incident, dated 12 October 1993. That

13 is Z642. It was drafted by the accused, Mario Cerkez.

14 Mr. Kalco, this document refers to physical

15 violence against Mr. Sucic, which in some way denied --

16 denies what you've just said. What is your opinion as

17 regards the sincerity, the correctness of this

18 document?

19 A. I think this document is meant as a

20 provocation. And I should like to see our reply to

21 this document. I do not have it. But we were sent

22 this document.

23 Q. Two days later, on the 12th of April 1993,

24 one of your officers, Nihad Rebihic, was arrested at a

25 checkpoint in Dolac while he was with his driver, and

1 the HVO military police mistreated him, mistreated him

2 and the two men. Did you interview with Pasko

3 Ljubicic, and the two men were then released; is that

4 true? Did you see Mr. Ljubicic at that point, and as

5 well as the chauffeur, and what was their state?

6 A. It was, as you say, Rebihic and driver had

7 come to the command with visible marks. His hands had

8 been tied and there were also marks on his face, which

9 was bruised from evident slaps in the face or fists,

10 perhaps. So they had been ill-treated and there were

11 those bruises on their faces.

12 Q. The next day, on the 13th of April 1993,

13 Mario Cerkez called you to tell you that Darko

14 Kraljevic and two other Vitezovi men had been killed by

15 the -- the BiH army in the woods. You then carried out

16 a quick investigation, and you noted that, in fact,

17 Kraljevic and the two other Vitezovi had been found

18 drunk. While they were smoking hashish, they were

19 found by one of your patrols, they were brought to

20 Vitez then, without any mistreatment at all. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. It is true that we received a report that

23 they had been in killed in Kruscica at Suhe Jele. We

24 sent a patrol, three military policemen, and they

25 established that they had been drunk and with the

1 marijuana which they used to enjoy. They were

2 brought --

3 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need to repeat,

4 Mr. Kalco, what counsel has said.

5 A. Very well.

6 JUDGE MAY: Let us move on.

7 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Kalco, on the 15th of April 1993, you

9 received a letter from Mr. Kraljevic, complaining about

10 the mistreatment that he was subjected to during that

11 incident. The letter is Exhibit Z661. I would like

12 you to look at it and to comment on that document.

13 Z661. Do you remember having received this document?

14 A. Yes, I do, and we also have a reply to this,

15 except that I don't have it. But we replied. And I

16 think this document was also a provocation. It was all

17 in preparation for the final attack which then took

18 place on the 16th of April.

19 Q. On the 14th of April, 1993, you were with

20 other members of the BH army and representatives of the

21 HVO, Vitez, including Mario Cerkez, his deputies Karlo

22 Grabovac, Sajic and Bertovic, and you celebrated

23 together the anniversary of the army of Bosnia. You

24 drank and you ate together that night, and during the

25 exchanges that you had with the other people, you were

1 assured that no conflict would break out in Vitez over

2 the following days. Is that correct?

3 A. It is, quite. We were celebrating the day of

4 the army, and that is the 15th of April. But because

5 the central celebration was in Zenica, around

6 municipalities we marked it one day earlier.

7 And at that meeting where we met to mark the

8 army day, we had invited to it representatives of the

9 HVO, and those gentlemen, whose names you read to us,

10 were present. And we drank and talked and sang into

11 the wee hours of the morning, and yet, nevertheless,

12 Mario Kraljevic [sic] said to us, members of the army

13 of B and H, and I wasn't alone -- there must have been

14 about 20 of us -- that there would never be a conflict

15 between the Armija and the HVO. And he, in particular,

16 stressed that there was no way in which a conflict

17 could break out in Kruscica and that the HVO would

18 never attack Kruscica because Mario also lived at the

19 entrance into that village, into Kruscica.

20 Q. I'd like a clarification. In the transcript,

21 it says, at least in the English version, that Mario

22 Kraljevic told you that there would never be a

23 conflict. Mario Kraljevic? I think there's a

24 mistake. Who are you speaking about, exactly?

25 A. I meant Mario Cerkez, because Kraljevic was

1 not there. We had not invited him, and he did not

2 attend.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you for the clarification.

4 The next day, that is, the 15th of April, you

5 went to Zenica to celebrate officially the anniversary

6 of the army, and then around 5 you went back. About

7 an hour later, you called the accused Mario Cerkez at

8 his headquarters, and you discussed things with him on

9 the telephone; is that right?

10 A. It was around 6 that I came from Zenica,

11 and an hour later I spoke to Mario about the situation

12 in the municipality, in the territory of the

13 municipality.

14 There was nothing to indicate that there

15 would be a conflict, although I learned from

16 intelligence officers that a part of HVO units between

17 the Mlad [phoen] Centre and the petrol station were

18 gathering there, and we thought that it was perhaps the

19 change of the shift of some units. True, it slightly

20 reinforced our security measures, that is, we raised

21 the level of preparedness, and that whole night was

22 very quiet.

23 In Bosnia, we say we could smell it in the

24 air, that something was not quite right, that something

25 was afoot. But we did not really know and we could

1 not, and we could not anticipate it, because 30 hours

2 before that, we were with the gentlemen, officers from

3 the Vitez Brigade, at the meeting in Vitez or, rather,

4 at this celebration of the BH army, and we asked them

5 and were told that that would not happen.

6 Q. On the 16th of April, in the morning, while

7 you were in Stari Vitez, you noticed that Stari Vitez

8 and Vitez had been attacked by the HVO forces. The

9 Vitez Brigade -- were the Vitez Brigade members

10 participants in the attack?

11 A. Yes. Those were the Vitez Brigade forces and

12 some other units perhaps, the forces commanded by

13 Cerkez, by Mario Cerkez.

14 In conformity with the JNA -- with the

15 Yugoslav People's Army principle, we and the HVO -- the

16 largest unit which is deployed at the site, then its

17 commander commands all the other units, that is, all

18 the smaller units, even units which are attached. They

19 would all be automatically placed under the command of

20 that brigade.

21 True, when the attack started, there was some

22 artillery fire aimed at various buildings in Stari

23 Vitez and other places, and one unit from the direction

24 of the fish shop or, rather, the garage, entered and

25 attacked -- and set on fire a block of houses, some ten

1 houses, including a restaurant, and that was the

2 beginning of the attack.

3 Q. Thank you. At the same time that Vitez and

4 Stari Vitez were attacked, did you receive information

5 telling you that other villages in the neighbourhood of

6 Vitez were also being attacked?

7 A. Yes, both the telephone and the radio

8 communication from Donja Veceriska, Divjak, Konacica

9 [phoen], Kruscica, Ahmici and other places. I don't

10 want to list them all. And we received the news that

11 the HVO forces had attacked all those places at one and

12 the same -- simultaneously. And after that, the

13 telephone lines were cut off and we were left with

14 radio stations only, that is, with radio links.

15 Q. During that day, during the attacks, did you

16 personally and people in your unit intercept any

17 telephone conversations of the HVO?

18 A. Yes, and they must have been doing it with

19 our equipment too, because they had more technology,

20 more equipment, so they must have been intercepting our

21 communications. And we did that too, as best we could,

22 with their conversations, so that the order issued by

23 Mario that Marko Lujic, nicknamed Markesa, who was the

24 artilleryman in Stara Bila/Pjescara, was to fire at

25 houses of worship at sacred facilities in relation to

1 Vranjica, we heard that. After several of the shells

2 directed at that area, the Vranjica and the mosque,

3 Markesa Lujic asked the commander, Mario, "Can I make a

4 break a little for the guns, for the gun barrels to

5 cool down a little," and so they could have a

6 breakfast.

7 We taped that conversation between Mario and

8 Markesa Lujic, Marko Markesa Lujic, the man who used to

9 work at Princip, like Mario and like myself. He knew

10 Mario, and Mario knew him just as well as he knew me,

11 because he worked with me, and he knew Marko Lujic just

12 as well.

13 Unfortunately, we --

14 Q. Mr. Kalco, that recording that you're talking

15 to us about, do you know what happened to it?

16 A. We handed it over. I was about to say that.

17 We handed it over to our command in Zenica. But then a

18 car bomb went off, exploded there, and with all the

19 havoc it wreaked, I simply do not know now where those

20 documents and the tape are now.

21 Q. You've just spoken to us about Marko Lujic

22 and the conversations between Mario Cerkez and Marko

23 Lujic. You have no doubt as to the voices? There's no

24 way you could have confused the voices of those two

25 people; is that correct?

1 A. Out of the question. I grew up with those

2 people, I worked with them. We regularly met, we

3 socialised, we partied together. Of course we knew

4 each other very well, and I knew that Mario Cerkez was

5 the superior commander of Marko Lujic, called Markesa.

6 JUDGE MAY: When you get to a convenient

7 moment, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I would like to show you a document,

10 Mr. Kalco. This is Document Z2480.2. The document is

11 part of the binder that was given to you a little while

12 ago, the binder which bears the reference number

13 2814.2.

14 Mr. Kalco, the purpose of the document is to

15 suggest a promotion to someone named Marko Lujic, who

16 was the son of Marko from Jardo. Could you tell us

17 whether this document deals with the Marko Lujic that

18 you're speaking to us about?

19 A. In Vitez and in the Lasva Valley, there is

20 only one Marko Lujic called Markesa. There is no other

21 Marko Lujic.

22 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Thank you

23 very much, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 3.56 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres. See if

3 you can finish as soon as possible, please.

4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I shall do

5 my best, Mr. President.

6 Q. Mr. Kalco, a moment ago you spoke about a man

7 called Marko Lujic, who was responsible for the

8 artillery in Vitez. Could you give us the name of the

9 person who was responsible for the artillery division

10 in Central Bosnia?

11 A. It was Batinic.

12 Q. On the 18th of April 1993, in late afternoon

13 there was a powerful explosion in Vitez, a truck full

14 of explosive went off that afternoon, and after the

15 explosion an infantry attack followed on Stari Vitez.

16 Could you tell us if, during this attack of Stari

17 Vitez, there were also members of the Vitez Brigade

18 taking part in it?

19 A. According to the information we had, this was

20 primarily carried out by the members of the Viteska

21 Brigade. It was under their command.

22 Q. And in the evening of that same day, the day

23 of the explosion, do you remember having seen the

24 accused, Dario Kordic, on television?

25 A. Yes. He was on local television, where he

1 said that in Stari Vitez an ammunitions depot of the

2 BiH army was activated, and that there would be other

3 explosions of this kind. He spoke ironically.

4 Q. Did you receive the message and interpret it

5 as a threat for the future?

6 A. Well, of course it was a threat. It wasn't

7 said just like that. He meant it to be a threat in

8 order to intimidate the population and the BiH army.

9 Q. If I've understood correctly, he explained

10 that the explosion was -- well, it was the explosion of

11 the warehouse and not of a truck?

12 A. Precisely. A truck, yes. Yes. 3.000 or

13 4.000 kilogrammes of Vitezite explosive. According to

14 the information we have, it was Sahman, a refugee from

15 Sipovo, who was driving.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kalco. During that televised

17 intervention, did the accused, Dario Kordic, also

18 indicate what would happen to those responsible -- the

19 officials of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army, and say that

20 they should surrender?

21 A. Yes. He said that the members of the army

22 should surrender because they knew what awaits them.

23 And he said that commanders would be tried according to

24 the laws of Herceg-Bosna and -- I can't remember now.

25 That they would be proclaimed rebels.

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1 Q. On the 30th of April 1993, that was the day

2 that General -- that you spoke about, when Praljak came

3 to Vitez. You had a meeting at the Hotel Vitez with

4 Colonel Blaskic and Petkovic.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I believe that you were the only

7 representative of the BiH army in Vitez on that day; is

8 that correct? That is during the meeting.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell us what Colonel Blaskic stated

11 at that meeting?

12 A. First, Petkovic, Totic, Filipovic, Andric

13 from the HVO; and then Sefer Halilovic, Rasim Delic,

14 and Vehbija Karic towards Stari Vitez. After touring

15 Stari Vitez, a meeting was organised at the hotel in

16 Stari Vitez. At this meeting Petkovic said that in the

17 evening he would call the representatives of the Vitez

18 municipality, that Stari Vitez was destroyed, and that

19 basic public utilities should be restored so the people

20 could live properly.

21 Mr. Blaskic said that he was carrying out

22 orders from Herceg-Bosna or, rather, from his superior,

23 Darko Kordic (sic). One of the commanders of the joint

24 command of the army, an HVO from Orasje, Ivica Mioc,

25 former soldier or, rather, officer of the JNA, because

1 all these officers of the army and the HVO --

2 Q. I am going to interrupt you, Mr. Kalco.

3 Excuse me. After the meeting at the Hotel Vitez, did

4 you go to the movies, the cinema where Mario Cerkez had

5 his headquarters, and you were escorted by two British

6 soldiers. You met with prisoners; is that so? During

7 the visit, right after the visit, you were taken apart

8 by an HVO soldier and you were struck; is that true?

9 A. Yes. I went to see two British soldiers, and

10 we were escorting them from both sides. There were a

11 lot of people there at the entrance to the cinema.

12 Somebody hit me in the stomach, and all the air got

13 out, and I had quite a bit of trouble coming to.

14 After that I returned to the hotel, and with

15 Filip Filipovic I came or, rather, an HVO soldier came

16 and he said -- he said, "Bring him here, Colonel, so

17 that I could draw a cross on his forehead."

18 After that, I encountered Mario Cerkez and we

19 talked after that, that all prisoners be released. A

20 few days later, all were released. I think that on

21 that day about 70 persons were released, while about 17

22 persons from the leadership of the SDA were expelled

23 or, rather, taken into custody into HVO prisons in

24 Busovaca.

25 Q. In all, according to the figures that you

1 were able to get, about 700 people were released from

2 various detention centres in Vitez; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, in the cinema, and in the premises of

4 the social organisations, or in the heating room of

5 this cinema, then the public accounting office, at the

6 chess club, at the veterinary station, at the

7 elementary school in Dubravica.

8 JUDGE MAY: It may not assist to have this

9 sort of detail. Mr. Lopez-Terres, if we can go on,

10 perhaps, to 57.

11 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Very

12 well.

13 Q. Mr. Kalco, on the 18th of July, 1993, when

14 you were in Stari Vitez and there was a new attack

15 launched against that part of Vitez, that attack lasted

16 from 4.15 a.m. until 1800 hours; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. That was in the morning at 4 until

18 1800 hours in the afternoon.

19 From Princip, an effort was made to enter

20 with an armoured vehicle that was made from a

21 bulldozer. It was made in such a way that 12 soldiers

22 of the HVO could massacre the military and the

23 population once they got into Vitez. Fortunately for

24 us, there weren't enough shells. A shell hit the

25 bulldozer from the asphalt up to --

1 JUDGE MAY: Do we need to hear about the

2 bulldozer?

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] The

4 Defence pointed out that they objected to my asking

5 leading questions. I'm in a somewhat sensitive

6 position.

7 JUDGE MAY: You can ask what the HVO

8 casualties were.

9 A. Well, this is the way it was: On that day,

10 none of our soldiers were killed, no army soldiers were

11 killed. Fifteen were wounded. Eight of them had

12 serious wounds, and they were transferred to Zenica.

13 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Kalco, excuse me. It's not that I'm not

15 at all interested in the casualties that you

16 experienced that day, but I would like to have

17 information about the HVO losses in particular. Is it

18 true that on that day, the HVO lost 27 men?

19 A. That is just what I started telling you

20 about.

21 Two or three days later, I was there on

22 behalf of the BH army, and Boro Jozic was there from

23 the HVO, and he received the bodies of 12 dead HVO

24 soldiers who were from the Viteska Brigade. We did not

25 know how many more soldiers there were. Later on, we

1 found out that there were 15 soldiers that remained

2 between HVO and BH army lines.

3 Boro, who had taken over the bodies, did not

4 want to take over these because they were not HVO

5 soldiers. Later, we came to the conclusion that these

6 were soldiers of the Croatian army from Bjelovar,

7 Daruvar, Osijek and other towns. We found their IDs,

8 their military IDs, their family photographs, and we

9 handed this over to our own authorities in Zenica, and

10 I'm not aware of the fate of these documents.

11 Q. Between July 1993 and February 1994, when

12 there was a ceasefire, did you notice the frequent

13 passage or landing of helicopters in Vitez?

14 A. Yes, yes, often. I think there were 86

15 arrivals by helicopter. Some actually landed, whereas

16 others parachuted parcels, so that the BH army also

17 benefited from this to a certain extent, because the

18 wind brought some of these parachuted parcels with

19 ammunition, weapons, et cetera, that were intended for

20 the HVO.

21 We know that Bralo, a pilot, and some man

22 called Sejo -- as far as we could find out, he was also

23 a pilot from the Croatian army. He was a Bosniak from

24 Kakanj. There were probably others as well. Later on,

25 we found out that they charged 5.000 Deutschmark for

1 every flight.

2 Q. As regards the helicopters that you saw

3 passing by, were they helicopters with HVO insignia or

4 the HV insignia?

5 A. I could not have established that, because

6 they were far away and they mostly flew in at night.

7 Q. On the 8th of August, 1993, you were in a

8 house in Stari Vitez and you saw the accused Dario

9 Kordic. Could you tell us under what circumstances

10 that happened and exactly what it was that you saw on

11 that day?

12 A. Let us go back a bit to this last question.

13 I just have one more sentence to say.

14 JUDGE MAY: No. If counsel wants to ask the

15 question, he will. Can we move on to the 8th of

16 August, please.

17 A. Yes. I was touring the lines, vis-a-vis

18 Lasva and the village of Krcevine. I looked through my

19 binoculars and I saw Mario. I also saw Kordic and

20 other HVO officers who were on Ravni Put. That was the

21 line that separated the HVO from the BH army forces.

22 At any rate, Mr. Kordic wore a camouflage

23 uniform. He had a chain with a religious cross. He

24 was waving his hands. One could see that he was

25 issuing orders, that he was in command, that he was

1 interested in something.

2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

3 Q. At what time did you see that?

4 A. About noon, about 1. It was a clear day,

5 a sunny day, so one could see well, not only I. There

6 were other soldiers who also saw this.

7 Q. At that point, you were in Stari Vitez; is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In the evening of that same day, that is, the

11 8th of August, 1993, you saw the accused Dario Kordic

12 on local television. Could you tell us what was being

13 broadcast that evening?

14 A. I saw Kordic also in uniform. I saw him at

15 the lines. I saw him touring HVO lines, and he said

16 that the lines were firm and invincible.

17 Q. The accused Dario Kordic on that day, did he

18 refer to the history of the territory and to the

19 fact --

20 MR. SAYERS: Leading. I would ask --

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. What counsel can

22 ask is if Dario Kordic said anything else.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Did the accused, Kordic, during that

25 intervention, speak about any people who were the only

1 ones who would be authorised to live in that territory?

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, now, that's precisely the

3 question which I was trying to avoid. It is no good

4 putting the answer to him.

5 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] There was

6 no objection to that question, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, there is now. There is

8 now.

9 Mr. Kalco, during the broadcast, did Dario

10 Kordic say anything else that you remember?

11 A. Yes, Your Honour. He said that these regions

12 were held by Croats for centuries, and that only Croats

13 could live in that area, and no one else, as far as I

14 can remember. There was something else too, but I

15 cannot recall.

16 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no

17 further questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Who is going to

19 cross-examine?

20 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if you will allow

21 us, we will come first.

22 A. Yes.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kalco.

25 A. Good day to you, sir.

1 Q. My name is Bozidar Kovacic and I am Defence

2 counsel for Mario Cerkez, together with my colleague,

3 Mr. Mikulicic, and I would like to put a few questions

4 to you related to your statement.

5 A. Thank you. Please go ahead.

6 Q. There is one thing I have to ask you. Let us

7 both be careful, you and I, to leave some time between

8 our questions and answers, for the purpose of

9 interpretation, because you and I understand each

10 other, but all of this is being interpreted for

11 everybody else.

12 Mr. Kalco, today is the first time that we

13 heard from our colleagues from the Office of the

14 Prosecution that you had had a stroke. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. I think that this could be of relevance to

18 the entire situation, so could you please tell us when

19 this happened?

20 A. It happened in '96, on the 19th of January.

21 Q. And you were treated for it, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where were you treated?

24 A. In Zenica.

25 Q. In hospital?

1 A. Yes, in hospital.

2 Q. How long were you in hospital?

3 A. For 12 days.

4 Q. After that, did you go for a recuperation,

5 rehabilitation?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. How long did the rehabilitation last?

8 A. About ten days.

9 Q. Also in Zenica?

10 A. No, in Fojnica.

11 Q. Oh, in Fojnica. You said that you retired.

12 Was this disability retirement or regular retirement?

13 A. Regular retirement.

14 Q. Also, tell me, please, after this illness and

15 after rehabilitation, what has your condition been

16 like? What was your health been like?

17 A. Now it's all right.

18 Q. Do you have any problems with your memory,

19 have you had any amnesia?

20 A. No. I just have a few speech problems.

21 Q. You haven't got any problems in terms of

22 setting time in the past?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. I'm sorry, and I do apologise for having put

25 these personal questions to you, but I had to.

1 A. Oh, it's all right.

2 Q. You said that you knew Cerkez before the

3 conflict. Briefly, in order to speed things up, I am

4 going to repeat the basic facts. You were his superior

5 in the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence; is

6 that correct? Just give a yes or no answer.

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. And after that, again, you were his superior

9 while you worked at the SPS?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you worked together for a total of about

12 ten years?

13 A. Yes, perhaps even more than ten.

14 Q. So, can I say that you really knew him well?

15 A. Yes, I knew him well. And I liked him. I

16 liked him as if he were my own younger brother.

17 Q. Tell me, Mr. Kalco, during those 12 years or

18 so, or even when the first problems started during

19 1992, did you ever notice that Cerkez held certain

20 positions vis-a-vis other entities, other national

21 groups, whether he was in favour of segregation, or did

22 he have any kind of negative attitude towards the

23 members of other ethnic groups?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You never felt that in his case?

1 A. Never.

2 Q. Can you tell us, perhaps, when you first

3 noticed this, if at all?

4 A. Well, his attitude was different when the

5 army was established and the HVO. There was not that

6 real friendship camaraderie. That's what it was like.

7 All of it was official, like what had to be done.

8 Q. Very well. You said yourself that you had

9 many direct contacts with him as two soldiers, you as a

10 soldier of the BiH army and Cerkez as an HVO soldier?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at that point did you still have only a

13 professional relationship or did he have a different

14 attitude towards you now?

15 A. Now his attitude was purely professional.

16 Q. And if my information is correct, even at

17 that time he did not opt for an ethnic approach; this

18 was simply a question of dealing with a different army,

19 the enemy army?

20 A. Well, it's hard to answer that, you see.

21 People say one thing and do another thing.

22 Q. I do apologise for interrupting, but let me

23 rephrase my question and put it in a better way.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic,

25 will you slow the pace down a little bit, please,

1 because it is very difficult, when you listen to the

2 interpretation, to follow. Thank you.

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Let us simplify matters. It is difficult to

5 say that. During the war, and during all the contacts

6 you had, did he ever use any derogatory word vis-a-vis

7 Muslims or his colleagues on the other side?

8 A. During the war we did not even meet. From

9 the 16th of April until the 25th of February 1994, we

10 did not meet. We did after that. I mean, after that

11 his attitude was, "Well, what has been has been, and

12 let us proceed from there." So this was his attitude

13 towards me, in global terms.

14 Q. And what about these few meetings that you

15 had in October '92 and throughout 1993, in April 1993,

16 did he ever use any derogatory term or insulting term

17 in your presence in respect of the Bosniak people?

18 A. He did not. But there is one thing. When we

19 had a meeting at the post office, he was categorical.

20 Q. May I interrupt you. We are going to get to

21 that, the meeting of the post office. Thank you very

22 much for this. You told us that it was actually a

23 coincidence that at the same time in early '92, when

24 you knew that many volunteers from Bosnia were going to

25 Croatia to fight against the Serbs, that at that time

1 Cerkez was missing for a while. On that basis, you

2 drew the conclusion, if I understood you correctly,

3 that in your opinion Cerkez also went to Croatia as a

4 volunteer?

5 A. Well, he was not in Vitez. He probably did,

6 in our judgement. But where he was, that --

7 Q. Mr. Kalco, on the basis of this, I infer that

8 you do not have any facts upon which you base this

9 conclusion.

10 A. Well, to tell you truth, no, I don't. But I

11 know that his comrades, who were there, spoke about the

12 fact that they were there for training, and they

13 mentioned his name. I don't have to mention the names

14 of these persons.

15 Q. Please, could you be as accurate as

16 possible. You talked about two things in this

17 section. Again, you mentioned training. The question

18 was, was he in Croatia? Do you have any information

19 about that?

20 A. No. No. I don't know that.

21 Q. And now, my second question, that is the one

22 that you actually raised on your own. Once again, the

23 question of training.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So now you said what you had to say to us.

1 So there were some rumours to that effect, that he was

2 undergoing training too?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you don't have any specific date about

5 this?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. As for rumours, can you tell me exactly who

8 said this to you, and what exactly?

9 A. No, I don't want to go into that, for the

10 sake of that person. It is not one person I am talking

11 about. It's several persons.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. In your statement to

13 the Prosecutor's office yesterday, you said that Cerkez

14 and other Croats such as, for instance, and then you

15 mentioned Darko Kraljevic, Anto Furundzija, for

16 instance, went for training. And you know what I am

17 talking about?

18 A. I do, yes.

19 Q. Anto Furundzija, if we mean one and the same

20 person, in 1992, that is at roughly about that same

21 time, he was the commander of an anti-terrorist squad

22 in the Territorial Defence?

23 A. No. He was with the military police of the

24 BiH army, but then the conflicts between the army and

25 the HVO escalated. He quit the army and joined the

1 HVO. He wasn't the only one. There were more Croats

2 that did that.

3 Q. Very well. But it is that Furundzija who was

4 with the military police of the BiH army, and was it in

5 that capacity that he was sent for training?

6 A. No. It was when he left the army that he

7 went for the training.

8 Q. But, by the way, isn't it true that the BiH

9 army also sent its men for training and specialisation

10 in Croatia, and that in that regard the Republic of

11 Croatia extended help to them?

12 A. Not from Vitez.

13 Q. I see. Not from Vitez. Then what about

14 Central Bosnia?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. And you were not informed about that, as an

17 officer?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And just one question more about this. You

20 became an active member of the Territorial Defence, as

21 late as August 1992, when you replaced -- you replaced

22 Hakija Cenjic in that position; is that correct?

23 A. I was with the TO on the 4th of April 1992.

24 I was this commander of the Stari Vitez squad. After

25 that, I went to the Visoko-Sarajevo front, and after

1 that front I replaced Hakija Cengic as the commander of

2 the TO staff.

3 Q. That was when in '92? What month?

4 A. Early October.

5 Q. So I understand from what you are saying,

6 that between April and October '92 you were absent from

7 Vitez?

8 A. That is not true. I was in Vitez, did a

9 shift, that is seven days on duty and seven days in

10 Vitez.

11 Q. I see. You took shifts.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And let us try to explain these shifts. The

14 BiH army took shifts on the front line against the

15 Chetniks?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the HVO sent their shifts. We shall come

18 to the assessment. My question is did they send their

19 troops there or not?

20 A. Yes, in the Croatian area, but not in

21 Visoko-Sarajevo area.

22 Q. So from Vitez, units went to that part, to

23 Turbe, Vlasic area, but not to the Visoko-Sarajevo

24 area. But they were organised also in shifts, weren't

25 they?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Kalco, I believe you will agree with me

3 that that job for the HVO, in 1992, was organised and

4 led by the municipal HVO headquarters in Vitez?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That was the body that took care of these

7 things?

8 A. Yes, for the HVO. For HVO units. The staff

9 or, rather, the command of the BiH army took care of

10 the shifts in the BiH army.

11 Q. Right. And on the front lines, they also

12 divided the responsibility, who would be responsible

13 for which sector; is that correct?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. In 1992 in Vitez, there did not exist a

16 brigade that belonged to the HVO; is that correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. Pursuant to the then regulations which you

19 had inherited from the former Yugoslavia and which had

20 been taken over by the government in Sarajevo, the HVO

21 and others, military conscripts could be summoned for a

22 particular task, that is, for instance, a shift on the

23 front line, and then they complete their shift and go

24 back to their villages or wherever. And what did they

25 do there when they came back?

1 A. They took rest.

2 Q. But if people had full-time jobs, they went

3 there?

4 A. No, no, because most of the factories were

5 closed, so few of them went to that.

6 Q. But if the factories went on working, they

7 would go back to their jobs?

8 A. I do not think so. Those who had been to the

9 front line did not go back to their jobs. They would

10 do a shift on the front line, and one shift they would

11 be resting.

12 Q. And was he treated as a soldier once he

13 finished his shift?

14 A. I believe so.

15 Q. But would he then be wearing the uniform

16 around and carry weapons?

17 A. Those who had weapons would carry them;

18 mostly short weapons, pistols, revolvers, and so on and

19 so forth. But most of them, yes, they would wear

20 camouflage uniforms.

21 Q. You mean both armies?

22 A. Yes, both.

23 Q. You said, "I believe so." You are not

24 affirming that?

25 A. No, I do affirm that, I do affirm it.

1 Q. So let us be quite clear about this. You

2 affirm that under the rules, a soldier would come back

3 from duty and waiting for his next shift, but he was

4 still considered an active-duty soldier; is that so?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that is how you treated them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You do not know if the HVO applied the same

9 rules?

10 A. Oh, yes, yes, definitely.

11 Q. Very well. But did you go into that at the

12 time, whether the HVO did the same?

13 A. Yes. We had conversations, and we learned

14 from each other.

15 Q. I should now like to move on to a different

16 subject, Mr. Kalco.

17 You told us today about the roadblock, an

18 incident in Ahmici on the 20th of October, 1992.

19 First, as for the meeting which, according to

20 you, took place on the 19th of October, that is, on the

21 eve of the conflict at the roadblock, you said that you

22 were there, Imam Mestrovac, Ivica Santic, Cerkez and

23 Pero Skopljak, and that it took place in the basement

24 of the post office. From what we have already heard in

25 this case, the composition of the meeting, and I'm

1 judging it by the presence of Imam Mestrovac, that

2 meeting took place after the incident and it was an

3 attempt to resolve it.

4 A. No, that is not true.

5 Q. Very well. I will show you a document later

6 on. Perhaps that will jog your memory.

7 But whatever the case, at that meeting, as

8 regards the composition of the meeting, which of these

9 meetings was attended by Mr. Marijan Skopljak?

10 A. He was not at the post office.

11 Q. Excuse me. I did not understand. Was he?

12 A. No, no, no, he was not at the post office.

13 Q. Was he at the health centre?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And after the incident?

16 A. We were in the municipal hall. We held a

17 meeting there in Marijan's office, but that was before

18 the incident.

19 Q. So according to you, there were not less than

20 three meetings before the incident?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Kalco, you told us about how and why the

23 roadblock was put up, and we're not going to go into it

24 now, of course. But will you tell us, if those

25 meetings did not represent an attempt of the local

1 politicians, and by these I mean people from Vitez,

2 residents from Vitez, to find a solution in view of the

3 two divergent interests, because you had your order to

4 stop them and they had the order to get through, so

5 didn't you get together to try to resolve this without

6 a conflict?

7 A. There was an HVO proposal of the solution to

8 let the units through. There were no other proposals.

9 Q. Mr. Kalco, did you discuss the alternative

10 solution, I mean in the conversations, that joint

11 roadblocks could be put up on the road so as to ensure

12 that these troops coming from the south-east would take

13 a roundabout, while preventing its entry into Vitez

14 itself?

15 A. After the incident, after Ahmici, there were

16 also such ideas, but not at the meeting itself. After

17 Ahmici, it was agreed those units used the main road

18 without going into Vitez.

19 Q. But that idea was born at that meeting on the

20 19th, before the roadblock?

21 A. But it did not originate from us, nor with

22 the HVO or the BH army. It originated with the former

23 command, I mean the BH army in Zenica.

24 Q. Very well. But you will confirm that there

25 were two roadblocks, one at Ahmici that we spoke about

1 today and another one by Bila, by the River Bosna; is

2 that correct? And what about the HVO and the one at

3 Bila? Did they go through it?

4 A. No, they went around it.

5 Q. I'm not sure I understood your answer.

6 A. Well, yes, the HVO was coming from Bila, but

7 that was above the main road, where the roadblock was,

8 and they had to go through this one, but only if they

9 were moving towards Travnik or towards Zenica.

10 Q. That is what I want to know. You said they

11 were going westward. That is what you said.

12 A. Let me tell you, they could not go from

13 Ahmici to the roadblock at Bila. The only thing they

14 could do, the only -- the units which -- the HVO units

15 which had been in Stari Vitez could pass through

16 there. Others could not.

17 Q. And then fighting broke out at that

18 roadblock, and the attack was focused mostly on that

19 roadblock; we agree on that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And there was some collateral damage around

22 that; we agree on that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Some houses or, rather, some stables burned

25 down. I believe there were two houses which --

1 A. No, not the barns, but houses, and the mosque

2 in Ahmici, the mosque in Vitez, the mosque in

3 Preocica. They all suffered damage on that occasion.

4 Q. Was there any fighting in Preocica? We never

5 heard about that. And who would be there?

6 A. It was the BH army there. There were no HVO

7 soldiers there. But that was the seat of a unit of the

8 BH army.

9 Q. Right. Mr. Kalco, that roadblock was lifted,

10 be that what it may, and you say that a couple of HVO

11 soldiers were killed there?

12 A. I guess so. I don't know.

13 Q. But this was not a conflict between two armed

14 parties in the conflict?

15 A. Not at all.

16 Q. And after that, meetings went on, and

17 political and military leadership from Vitez took part

18 in them. The meetings convened in order to put right

19 the situation, as it had disturbed people and could

20 give rise to major problems; is that true?

21 A. Yes, it is true. All effort was invested,

22 and I believe that the BH army and the Bosniak civilian

23 authorities did their utmost to maintain the situation

24 and prevent an open conflict. But the other side

25 resulted, through all sorts of ways, in a means to

1 provoke and to subject the BH army to the HVO command.

2 Q. If I may interrupt you, we shall come back to

3 this later.

4 As for the municipal authorities, as for the

5 politicians, politicians on both sides, a serious and

6 sincere effort was made bilaterally to calm the

7 situation down; is that true or not?

8 A. Yes, in the words, but not in practice.

9 Q. Mr. Kalco, in practice, since you come to

10 mention it, was the damage compensated for for those

11 whose houses in Ahmici that were damaged?

12 A. This is the first time I hear of it. This is

13 the first time I hear of it, from you.

14 Q. But can you deny this?

15 A. No, that was not the case at all.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you. But the fact is that

17 it did not lead to any further conflict, that things

18 were still kept under control in Vitez for the time

19 being, at least; can we agree on that?

20 A. Yes, for the time being, but it began to

21 escalate once -- but there was again insistence that

22 the BH army be attached to the HVO.

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] For the record,

24 there was a problem here in 165, line 7. The witness

25 here confirmed that it was -- that it was a conflict

1 between two armed parties of the conflict.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that correct? And in the record it says

4 the other way around. It said "No."

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's mistake.

6 MR. KOVACIC:

7 Q. You already explained to us how the order

8 came to block the road near Ahmici. This order went to

9 Nijaz Sivro from Sivrino Selo; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. He was responsible for that part.

11 Q. So, Nijaz Sivro, having received the order,

12 evidently did something about it, and ordered Midhat

13 Berbic to put up the roadblock at a particular place,

14 we know where, by the cemetery on the road there?

15 A. Yes. Correct.

16 Q. And we know that, but others may not. Midhat

17 Berbic commanded a BiH army unit in Ahmici; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, at that time.

20 Q. Yes, at that time. Yes. And the staff of

21 the Ahmici Territorial Defence was housed in the

22 elementary school in Ahmici?

23 A. Yes, for a while.

24 Q. Yes. Yes. We are referring to that

25 particular period of time.

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. And that is where they kept their radio

3 equipment. They had the so-called RUP 12 device?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And from there they could establish

6 communication with the Territorial Defence, that is

7 with your staff, with your headquarters in Vitez, in

8 Stari Vitez, with the local -- with the neighbourhood

9 community in Kruscica, that is Vranjska, with their

10 people in Vrhovine, Poculica and Sivrino Selo. Is that

11 correct?

12 A. It is. That was the communications system,

13 the army's.

14 Q. Right. And in all those places I mentioned,

15 there were also Territorial Defence units. Regardless

16 of the fact that it's unclear when they grew into --

17 from the Territorial Defence into the army, but we are

18 referring to this party to the conflict; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And that roadblock was quite solid. Do you

22 know anything about it?

23 A. Well, I do not know what you say, that it was

24 well-built.

25 Q. Well, there were metal bars they call the

1 hedgehogs, there were also land mine, anti-tank mines

2 of different types. It was strategically well placed,

3 it was guarded by soldiers, who were dug in on the

4 side, that is one side in the cemetery, another one

5 facing the houses. Is that correct? So one wouldn't

6 say it was made by amateurs, it was done by troops.

7 I think that it was perhaps my fault. I was

8 too fast. But in this paragraph, starting from line

9 18, the witness confirmed this part affirmatively. He

10 said "Yes."

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but it's a very long

12 question, and I suspect the interpreters didn't hear

13 the response.

14 Can you keep your questions fairly quick.

15 Fairly short I mean.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, Your Honour, I certainly

17 will. And you, of course, understand that it was my

18 intention to shorten, because obviously there was no

19 dispute.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. For the sake of the record, Mr. Kalco, all

23 these facts, these military elements related to the

24 roadblocks that I mentioned, were confirmed by you?

25 You said "yes" in the affirmative? Right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just before this roadblock was placed, were

3 there any incidents, any major incidents between the

4 members of the two respective parties?

5 A. Well, no major incidents.

6 Q. Do you know why your superior, Sefkija

7 Djidic, replaced Zahid Ahmic and, in a way, accused him

8 of being responsible for the exchange of gunfire at the

9 roadblock?

10 A. That is not correct. He was not replaced

11 because of that. He was replaced on account of other

12 things.

13 Q. Can we know why?

14 A. Well, I don't want to go into all of that.

15 Q. Very well. Mr. Kalco, what was the situation

16 like in Stari Vitez with regard to arms supplies on the

17 eve of the conflict, for example, on the 15th of April

18 1993? Let us break this down into several questions.

19 What kind of weapons did you have?

20 A. Small arms, automatic, semi-automatic rifles,

21 hunting rifles, mortars, 60 millimetres.

22 Q. According to my information, you had three or

23 four 60-millimetre mortars?

24 A. We had two.

25 Q. You had one 82-millimetre mortar?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You had three snipers, out of which one was a

3 Steyer 7.9?

4 A. Only one. Only one. And the other two were

5 rifles that we called Tandzera M-48 from the Second

6 World War. A good marksman could use them like a

7 sniper.

8 Q. So it did not even have a sight?

9 A. No. No. No. They did not have a sight at

10 all.

11 Q. All right. But they could be used as

12 snipers?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. You also had an M-84 machine gun?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. You had at least six M-53's, right?

17 A. No. Just three.

18 Q. All right. They are the 7.9-millimetre

19 calibre ones, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you also said that you had small arms,

22 and you had a total of 270 soldiers that were armed?

23 A. We had 256. And not all of them had arms.

24 We had 200 military weapons, and the rest were hunting

25 rifles. However, when the war ended, we had over 300

1 weapons, because we had taken quite a few from the HVO

2 during the fighting.

3 Q. Two offensive attempts were made by the

4 opposing side to take Stari Vitez, one was on the 16th

5 of April, the one that you described, and the other one

6 was in August, on the 18th of August. You spoke about

7 that today. In addition to that, were there any other

8 offensives, or was the front line stabilised?

9 A. The first was on the 16th, the other one was

10 on the 18th. And then in July, on the 18th, there were

11 other attempts as well, especially from the garages in

12 Novi Vitez. But that did not succeed.

13 Q. After the month of July, there weren't any

14 serious changes in -- major changes on the front line,

15 were there?

16 A. No, there weren't.

17 Q. As for food supplies and ammunition supplies,

18 you did have some supplies, didn't you?

19 A. Well, let me tell you. You should know, and

20 the Honourable Judges should know, and Cerkez and the

21 rest, we had enough food for the population and for the

22 army. We did not have sugar, we did not have oil. We

23 had ammunition. As for shells, we had those for RB

24 mortars. We had 100 shells for them. And then we used

25 90, and there were 10 at the end of the war. We used

1 ammunition only when we had to. But we bought

2 ammunition from HVO soldiers.

3 Let this be known. Let this be known. We

4 gave quite a bit of money for that, but we purchased

5 ammunition from them in the evening.

6 Q. During those 11 months of siege, did you have

7 some supplies coming in, at least from time to time?

8 A. Yes. In the beginning. And afterwards, when

9 the war was almost over.

10 Q. When you are saying the beginning, you are

11 talking about the supplies that came by river?

12 A. No. No. I am talking about the assistance

13 we received from humanitarian organisations. The river

14 transport was different.

15 Q. Was that a different line of transportation?

16 A. No, I am not saying it's a different line. I

17 am saying it's a different story, and I don't want to

18 go into it here and now.

19 Q. All right. But you opened some routes for

20 new supplies; is that right?

21 A. Yes, precisely.

22 Q. Please, I would like to go back to something

23 for a second. I omitted to mention something. In a

24 statement that you made to the investigators of this

25 Tribunal earlier on, that is to say on the 15th and

1 16th of July '95, when you spoke about the roadblock on

2 the 20th of October and about that fighting, at one

3 point you said explicitly, I am going to read this

4 sentence, "The only person authorised by the HVO of the

5 Municipality of Vitez to issue an order for attacking

6 Ahmici on the 20th of October in 1992, was the

7 President of the Municipality of Vitez, Ivica Santic."

8 A. Can I comment on it now?

9 Q. Yes, please go ahead. First of all -- well,

10 first things first. Is this exactly what you stated?

11 A. Yes. But let me tell you, the HVO, the

12 military and the civilian authorities, were one single

13 command, and that is the Croatian Defence Council,

14 civilian and military. And now, who Santic received

15 orders from, that I don't know.

16 Q. Mr. Kalco, we unwittingly opened a new area

17 now, but I'll have to clarify it. I shall try to

18 simplify things as much as possible. The HVO was the

19 executive branch of the Croatian community of

20 Herceg-Bosna, the executive government, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Secondly, that the HVO, that is to say that

23 this executive branch had two branches of government,

24 the military and the civilian. Do we agree on that?

25 A. Well, let me tell you. They did both.

1 Q. I suggest that we move one step at a time.

2 Was there a division into the military and civilian

3 branches?

4 A. I don't know, but there should be, in my

5 opinion, but I'm not sure. I don't know what the

6 actual set-up was.

7 Q. You don't know what the actual set-up was.

8 But since you are claiming not to be aware of the

9 actual set-up, Mr. Kalco, then how could you claim that

10 Cerkez, in 1992, was chief of staff of the HVO in

11 Vitez?

12 A. Because we received documents signed by him.

13 Q. May I remind you, Mr. Kalco, that during

14 1992, all the way up to the month of October, Marijan

15 Skopljak was a commander of staff in HVO in Vitez?

16 A. Yes, but that was the office for defence

17 preparations.

18 Q. But then before Marijan Skopljak, who was

19 commander of this office? Can you remember that?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. And what about Stipo Krizanovic, wasn't he

22 there?

23 A. Well, yes. Probably, yes.

24 Q. So there is one line, that is the defence

25 department, Stipo Krizanovic, and then Mario Skopljak

1 later took that office. And you will agree with me

2 that this is the staff of the HVO, we are talking about

3 1992, you communicated with him and you knew him as the

4 Territorial Defence. You confirmed to us that you

5 cooperated with him in terms of the different shifts in

6 Turbe. They took care of this. They took care of this

7 organisation of the HVO army; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. They also gave men for

9 this.

10 Q. Yes, that's right. Cerkez worked there,

11 right? He is one of Marijan Skopljak's men in 1992; is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes. Yes. But from a military point of

14 view, he commanded that unit.

15 Q. All right. But now we are talking about

16 1992. Please, Marijan Skopljak, was he Cerkez's boss,

17 all the way up to October 1992?

18 A. I think so.

19 Q. And what you said to us earlier on, the

20 Prosecutor did not ask you about the exact point in

21 time, but I'm going to ask you now.

22 Sometime towards the end of 1992, in October

23 1992, Marijan Skopljak became head of the Defence

24 Department for the municipality of Vitez?

25 A. Well, that's the same thing.

1 Q. So do you agree with that?

2 A. Well, that's the same thing.

3 Q. But the difference is that they gave it a

4 different name because of this reorganisation?

5 A. But they did the same job.

6 Q. Yes, that's right. But do you agree that it

7 was a bit of reorganisation, that they gave it a new

8 name even?

9 A. Yes, but for the same purpose.

10 Q. Specifically --

11 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Kovacic, I'm not sure

12 that we are being helped by all this detail. You've

13 got the point of what the witness said. Let's move on

14 to something else.

15 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I want to really

16 not bother you, but it is really important to

17 distinguish who is who. There is only one question and

18 I'm closed with it.

19 JUDGE MAY: Ask the question and then move

20 on.

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. If you remember, Mr. Kalco, at that time,

23 this is approximately October 1992, these HVO people,

24 they called it the municipal HVO government; is that

25 correct? That is the term that was then introduced?

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Tell me, do you agree that Ivica

3 Santic was mayor of the town?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then he took over the office of the

6 civilian structure of the HVO in Vitez. What about

7 Ivica Santic; did you ever see him in uniform?

8 A. I never did.

9 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the incident in

10 May, that is to say, the killing of Samir Trako. I

11 have just two short questions. Did you hear of an

12 investigating judge from Zenica having been there to

13 carry out investigation on site?

14 A. No, no, I don't know.

15 Q. So you only heard about the military

16 representatives of both sides?

17 A. Yes, yes. Ours was led by Dugalic, and the

18 other --

19 Q. Did you hear about this being discussed this

20 same night at the meeting of the crisis staff?

21 A. Yes, yes, but the crisis staff is a

22 double-edged sword. It was just a lot of talk, but

23 nothing was actually done.

24 Q. All right. You said to us here today that

25 Ivan Budimir was the military police, and you put him

1 under Cerkez' control. I would have to put a few

2 questions to you because you know the organisational

3 structure, but perhaps it wasn't put very clearly.

4 What was the post held by Ivan Budimir in 1992?

5 A. He was commander of the military police, and

6 the military police and the brigades -- and the staffs,

7 rather.

8 Q. Mr. Kalco, we're talking about 1992. Edib

9 Zlotrg, your colleague who testified here, a policeman

10 himself, that is to say, he had frequent contact with

11 Budimir?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. He explicitly stated here in some documents

14 that were tendered that Ivan Budimir was commander.

15 JUDGE MAY: If you've got the evidence from

16 another witness, you don't need to put it to this one.

17 Why argue with the witnesses all the time? You've got

18 the evidence. Now, there's no need to go over it all

19 again.

20 Now, I suggest that we move on to something

21 else.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Today you also testified about some alleged

24 killings that were allegedly committed by Perica

25 Vukadinovic on the 19th of November, 1992, and you also

1 established that he was a member of the brigade. We

2 agreed before that there was no brigade in 1992.

3 A. There was the defence staff of the HVO, and

4 he was there, and Mario was his commander.

5 Q. Are you trying to say that he was one of the

6 men who was in those shifts that we had discussed?

7 A. Well, yes, yes.

8 Q. Can you deny that Perica Vukadinovic was a

9 member of the regional military police?

10 A. I know that his commander was Mario, and the

11 man who saw him shoot recognised that he was the one

12 who was shooting at them.

13 Q. Mr. Kalco, when was Mario his commander?

14 A. In October, November, and before that.

15 Q. In '92?

16 A. Yes, in '92, and after that.

17 Q. Very well. You said that there was an armed

18 attack on the logistics base of the BH army, that is,

19 TO in Vitez, during the meeting. Who was it?

20 Vitezovi, you said?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. So those were Vitezovi?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And it has nothing to do with Cerkez at the

25 time?

1 A. I believe it does not.

2 Q. Maybe just two or three questions about the

3 meetings, about the negotiations.

4 On at least two occasions, you said that

5 among others, there was also Ivica Santic in addition

6 to Cerkez. Who is superior to whom?

7 A. In military terms, Mario.

8 Q. But a little while ago, you agreed that only

9 Santic could issue such an order?

10 A. Yes. Santic would come with Mario and talk

11 about the removal of the roadblock, and Mario said, "If

12 you don't, then Vitez will be butchered."

13 Q. Very well. Mr. Kalco, you say that Cerkez

14 said that, but was it within the context of explaining

15 the situation and making it clear that everything might

16 go to hell, or do you think it was a threat, or what?

17 A. I think it was a threat.

18 Q. But was there any talk about the possible

19 consequences if the situation was not resolved by some

20 peaceful means?

21 A. No. It was only said that Vitez would be

22 butchered or, rather, that part inhabited by Bosniaks.

23 Q. My next question also has to do with Cicko

24 Bralo, whom you mentioned. Just one thing for the time

25 being, and after that I will show you -- rather

1 tomorrow morning I will show you a document which we're

2 having copied now.

3 At the time when Salkic was murdered, Bralo

4 belonged to a different unit. What do you say? He was

5 the member of what unit at the time of this murder?

6 I'm referring to February '93.

7 A. He was a member of the Vitez Brigade. But of

8 course you can find a different list that says

9 something else, but I could not accept that.

10 Q. Mr. Kalco, another question. You yourself

11 said that at that time, the Vitez Brigade did not exist

12 at that time?

13 A. Don't harp on the Vitez Brigade. There is

14 his signature, when Mario asked, "Here is a document

15 requesting equipment for special-purpose forces," and

16 it's his signature on it, so don't.

17 Q. I don't want to go into a discussion with

18 you. I will ask you a question about this document.

19 Do you have some specific information, apart from what

20 your informers told you, that at that time, that is,

21 early '93, Bralo was a member of a unit commanded by

22 Mario Cerkez?

23 A. I have information from my intelligence

24 officers, and I trust them. I believe that that was

25 so.

1 Q. But you yourself did not see a document, some

2 other evidence?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Since you mentioned this Document

5 221 signed by Mario Cerkez, and it says, "The municipal

6 staff, 19 September," the municipal staff is supposed

7 to resolve the logistics problems for the troops

8 there?

9 A. Yes. But is it with the use of forces?

10 Q. Very well. That concept that you told us,

11 and you said that you inherited the JNA concept

12 regarding the subordination of units in a territory,

13 tell us first -- this will be a question -- do you

14 agree that in the territory of the municipality of

15 Vitez towards the end of '92 onward, at any time there

16 were several different units?

17 A. I agree.

18 Q. Do you know that the seat of the command, of

19 the HVO [inaudible] command, was in Vitez?

20 A. I know that.

21 Q. In the hotel?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said yourself that in Vitez, there was a

24 unit which in 1992 was called HOS and then changed its

25 name and became the Vitezovi under Darko Kraljevic's

1 command, and that they were active in Vitez throughout;

2 is that correct?

3 A. Let me tell you --

4 Q. No, no, no. Just a moment. The Prosecutor

5 may ask you other questions about that. Will you

6 confirm that that unit existed in Vitez?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was Vitez the headquarters for the regional

9 police of the HVO?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did this military police have two mobile

12 offensive squads, one of which was called Jokeris?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in late '92, did the Ludvig Pavlovic Unit

15 come to the territory of the municipal?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. With those oak leaves, isn't it?

18 A. True.

19 Q. Did Bruno Busic ever come there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the 16th of April, were there also parts

22 of the Frankopan along the edges to the east, towards

23 Busovaca?

24 A. I don't know all those who were there, but I

25 can say about the attack on Stari Vitez, that the

1 responsibility for it is borne by the Vitez Brigade and

2 its commander. Whether he received his orders to do

3 that and in that way is another matter. But all the

4 units which took part in the attack which were inferior

5 to him, what was their supreme commander because they

6 are attached to him. And other units which are also

7 attached to that unit are placed under the command of

8 the commander of that particular formation.

9 Q. That is a model?

10 A. Yes, that is a model. Now, how it

11 happened --

12 Q. Yes. But that model, depending on the

13 instructions of the commander, of the higher commander,

14 could also be different, could change, isn't it?

15 A. It could, yes. I do not question that.

16 Q. Very well. Have you ever seen a document, an

17 order, an instruction to indicate that the first model

18 was being applied?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, when you come to a

21 convenient moment, we'll adjourn until the morning.

22 MR. KOVACIC: As a matter of fact, Your

23 Honour, I think it will be just a good moment, because

24 I'm about to go into a new area.

25 JUDGE MAY: How much longer do you anticipate

1 more with this witness?

2 MR. KOVACIC: I think I could be done that in

3 an hour and a half, not more than two. But I'm trying

4 to be on the safe side, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Well, try and do it in an hour.

6 MR. KOVACIC: I can assure you I will do all

7 the best.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the length of the

9 cross-examination of this witness creates some

10 potential problems. We have a witness, Brigadier

11 Hayes, who we don't forecast will take very long in

12 chief or in cross-examination. He certainly won't be

13 long in chief if we're allowed to put in his summary as

14 his evidence in chief. But he has to be on an

15 aeroplane tomorrow afternoon and has to leave for that

16 aeroplane at 4. We were wondering whether it was

17 appropriate to interpose him.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let's see how we get on tomorrow,

19 if we can complete the cross-examination. Mr. Sayers,

20 do you anticipate being very long?

21 MR. SAYERS: I would not anticipate more than

22 a half an hour, Your Honour, at the maximum. And I'll

23 try to keep it less than that.

24 JUDGE MAY: I would have thought there is

25 time to fit the Brigadier in.

1 MR. NICE: And indeed I have one other

2 witness as well, but after the Brigadier is gone, if we

3 sit till 5.15 or 5.30.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

5 Mr. Kalco, I'm afraid you'll have to come

6 back tomorrow, but we'll conclude your evidence then.

7 If you could be back, please, at 9?

8 A. Very well.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

10 at 5.21 p.m. to be reconvened on

11 Wednesday, the 8^th day of March, 2000

12 at 9 a.m.

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