Page 16946
1 Tuesday, 11
2 [Defence Opening Statement]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
7 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 [Interpretation] The Defence of the accused
9 Mr. Dario Kordic yesterday made submissions on the
10 general thesis which have a bearing on this case and
11 provided the general context of the events which took
12 place in 1992 and 1993 in the Lasva River Valley and
13 the Vitez pocket. Of course, all these events have
14 their bearing on the charges on which the Chamber will
15 have to consider and the surrounding circumstances
16 provide a real picture of the events which took place
17 there.
18 However, what we're concerned with in this
19 proceeding is the individual responsibility rather than
20 the surrounding picture. Of course, we cannot consider
21 the evidence in this case separate from the realities
22 on the ground in a vacuum, and we will have to focus on
23 the role of the accused relating to the charges, and I
24 believe that this is the key point that one has to bear
25 in mind.
Page 16947
1 We are dealing with the events in Bosnia in
2 this period of time, and we are considering an
3 inter-ethnic conflict, and in this we are in
4 agreement. It started with the aggression of the JNA
5 and Bosnian Serb and other Serb paramilitary forces,
6 and gradually it resulted in the conflict between the
7 Croatian -- that is, the Bosnian Croats and Bosnian
8 Muslims at least in some areas of Bosnia, and to a
9 lesser degree, later on it resulted in the inter-Muslim
10 conflict.
11 What we'll have to address in our case is
12 that the conflict between the Croats and Muslims was
13 simply a consequence of the Serbian aggression in
14 Bosnia. And if we project that into time, and I will
15 come back to that when I discuss Count 2, the
16 persecution, it is only there that we will arrive at
17 the realistic picture of what took place, because in
18 1992, all efforts of the HVO were concentrated on the
19 struggle against the Serbs, whereas in 1993, there was
20 a shift which had its own logic.
21 So from the very outset, we beg to differ
22 from how the Prosecution had set out its case, because
23 in some points we depart from the reality, if we look
24 at the indictment, because the HVO that we're concerned
25 with, the part that was in the Vitez pocket, is being
Page 16948
1 painted as a foreshadowing of or the preparation for
2 the conflict with the Muslims rather than focusing on
3 the real fact that the only function of the HVO at that
4 time was the struggle against the Serbs.
5 All the events in Bosnia during 1992 and 1993
6 are very confusing, and it is not easy to gain the
7 proper picture of it. This is why these proceedings
8 take so much time, because a lot of time is needed to
9 arrive at the full picture of what had happened.
10 I will just quote an excerpt from
11 Colonel Stewart's book, because it touches on something
12 that is very relevant for what we're dealing with. At
13 one point -- and this quote was actually used in the
14 Blaskic case, at page 23824, but it is a quote from the
15 book, "Broken Lives", and I will quote it in -- the
16 original in English: [In English] "The differentiation
17 between military and civilian is impossible. Bosnia is
18 undergoing a classic civil war fought by civilians
19 against civilians."
20 And I want to highlight the last sentence:
21 [In English] "A civilian at one point, a soldier the
22 next."
23 This sentence contains a question that is
24 very critical to the defence of Mr. Cerkez, because one
25 of the questions that arises in our case is the
Page 16949
1 distinction between the civilian and military, and
2 military and military in terms of the membership of a
3 certain military unit. To make it very specific, the
4 Defence of Mr. Cerkez, in their case, will submit that
5 certain criminal acts committed during the latter part
6 of 1993 in Vitez, that is, following the conflict of
7 the 16th of April, that is, we will show that there is
8 no evidence that it was -- these acts were not
9 committed by the brigade for which Mr. Cerkez was
10 responsible, and I will later come back to fully fledge
11 this argument.
12 The second issue relating to the pocket is
13 why a tense and chaotic situation in late 1992 and 1993
14 exploded on the 16th of April, 1993. That is the
15 moment when the open conflict between the two ethnic
16 groups in Central Bosnia actually started. Of course
17 we are interested in the motive. Of course we must
18 learn why this took place.
19 In the course of this trial, in the
20 Prosecution case, the Vance-Owen Plan has been brought
21 up on several occasions. Of course the situation in
22 Bosnia was too complex, and no single effect can be
23 traced down to a single cause. However, it is also
24 beyond doubt that the Vance-Owen Plan was an important
25 factor in shaping the events and one of the important
Page 16950
1 causes of the war which ensued.
2 Let me again quote a very short excerpt from
3 a document which was submitted through the Officer de
4 Boer, and it's titled "From Intelligence", and an
5 analysis is provided here. We reviewed it, but at the
6 very beginning it says: [In English] [Previous
7 translation continues] ... "-- would go down in history
8 as the Vance-Owen Plan."
9 I would just like to point out that the
10 Vance-Owen Plan is, without doubt, the key, if not the
11 only cause of the confrontation between the Bosnian
12 Croats and Bosnian Muslims. In that sense, the Defence
13 will show that the Bosnian Croats and their
14 organisation, HZ HB, and the HVO as its executive body,
15 never dreamed up some kind of a master plan which they
16 wanted to put into operation in April 1993 or even
17 1992, as the Prosecution would let you believe, but
18 that the conflict broke out in an uncontrolled way
19 regardless of who even started it, who started an
20 offensive first. And we still do not have direct
21 evidence on who started it. It has been suggested it
22 was the HVO, but we do not have any direct evidence on
23 that.
24 The Defence of Mr. Cerkez believes that it is
25 not really that significant, which side threw a match
Page 16951
1 into the barrel of oil, because the situation may have
2 been ripe for this. The relationships may have been
3 such and the events may have been such that they
4 inevitably led to the conflagration, and we will show
5 that everybody was a victim and that one of the
6 important elements of the conflict was not only the
7 Vance-Owen Plan, as a piece of paper, but the entire
8 stage upon which the actors were staged, not only
9 because of the inner conflicts within the former
10 Yugoslavia and Bosnia but, in part, because of the
11 reaction or bad reaction of the International
12 Community, which may have had honourable motives in
13 getting involved but also did not find its way in this
14 situation.
15 The indictment against my client, Mr. Mario
16 Cerkez, contains 22 counts. In fact, in essence, if we
17 disregard the legal points, there are five criminal
18 acts charged, and the sixth is the persecution, which
19 has rather general underpinnings, and I don't think
20 that I need to belabour that.
21 What I consider essential for this Defence is
22 something that I want to point out, and that is the
23 timeframe. With the exception of the persecution,
24 which is a more general term, everything that has been
25 charged took place in April of 1993.
Page 16952
1 [In English] Your Honour, the transcript on
2 the monitor has stopped, but I don't see that that's an
3 obstacle to continue, I guess.
4 [LiveNote technical difficulties]
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE MAY: I'm told it's a matter of
7 technical difficulty. It will take some minutes to
8 resolve, but a transcript will be made, so you can keep
9 going.
10 MR. KOVACIC: I will, Your Honour.
11 [Interpretation] In essence, everything that
12 takes place and what brought about this indictment
13 actually refers to the events of April 1993. In our
14 Defence, we will try to demonstrate this. But in our
15 case, we will also have to show that from April 1993,
16 if we are able to distinguish victims and perpetrators
17 in this civil war, then we must know that after April
18 1993 the victims change, that is, if we cannot claim
19 that everybody was a victim in that civil war.
20 In respect of Mario Cerkez as a person, I
21 don't think that I need to belabour this point. I
22 think that I made my submissions in the pre-trial
23 brief. We will call certain character witnesses who
24 will speak to the character of Mr. Cerkez, and as
25 professional in the criminal law, we will all agree
Page 16953
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Page 16954
1 that the character of the accused also contributes to
2 the overall conclusions. And as an example, in the
3 presentation of our case, we will show that Mr. Cerkez
4 never harboured any ethnic bias, that he was brought up
5 in a multi-ethnic community, and that he had no reason
6 nor did he ever demonstrate any changes in this general
7 attitude. This may have bearing on the motives of the
8 accused, which in this case also have to be considered,
9 because there is no criminal act without a motive. And
10 we deeply believe that in respect of the acts which we
11 are considering here, the only motive can be a bias
12 against another ethnic community or group, and we will
13 show very clearly and unequivocally that none of that
14 ever was displayed in our client.
15 We also would like to point out a point of
16 law, which was the discriminatory intention, which is a
17 necessary factor to be considered in the charge of
18 persecution, because in the practice of this Tribunal
19 it has been established that this discriminatory
20 intention needs to be established and so the behaviour
21 of the accused before the conflict, that is, in his
22 regular life and even during the conflict, may shed
23 light or may be one of the factors which would have the
24 bearing on whether there was persecution or not,
25 because if there is no segregatist shading in whatever
Page 16955
1 Mr. Cerkez did, then the charges of persecution cannot
2 stand.
3 I believe there is no need to add anything on
4 the character of the accused. He was a family man, a
5 regular, upright citizen who was never in conflict with
6 the law, including misdemeanours, let alone criminal
7 acts or something serious like that.
8 The third main point that I would like to
9 point out is the Count 2 of the indictment, which is
10 persecution, and I would like to ask you for the
11 assistance of the usher to help me distribute a chart
12 and place a copy on the ELMO so that we could all
13 follow it easily.
14 [In English] Could we have one of the copies
15 on the ELMO.
16 [Interpretation] I prepared this chart merely
17 to illustrate my points better and to perhaps save
18 time.
19 The indictment charges my client with a crime
20 of persecution between April 1992 and September 1993,
21 and that is the line in the centre of this graph. I
22 indicated here the two basic periods of time that we
23 have been dealing with, and I think that in the
24 Prosecutor's case this has, I think, emerged quite
25 clearly.
Page 16956
1 Between April 1992 and April 1993 or, to be
2 more accurate, the 16th of April, 1993, general chaos
3 reigns, anarchy. There was a situation where there was
4 no government and no central authority in Bosnia, or
5 even local authority. The authority is governed by
6 improvisation, by extemporisation, and the ability or,
7 shall I say, lack of ability of people working for
8 local governments.
9 One needs to understand that the organisation
10 of authority in the former Socialist Republics of
11 Yugoslavia and in Bosnia was highly decentralised in
12 regard to many powers, even though there was a central
13 leadership. But the point is that the municipalities
14 had a very important role in the organisation of
15 authority and that they played an important role in the
16 discharge of the state authority or state powers when
17 chaos set in in Bosnia, when the new
18 formally-recognised State of Bosnia-Herzegovina could
19 not function because of the occupation and isolation of
20 its heart and the occupation of as much as 70 per cent
21 of its area. And in the circumstances, the local
22 authorities tried to do their best, as best as they
23 could. In some places, it functioned better. In some,
24 it functioned less well. We shall see how it was in
25 Vitez. We have seen some of that so far.
Page 16957
1 However, during this period of time, because
2 of the lack of authority there was lawlessness, there
3 was a situation in which organised but also
4 highly-individual disorganised gangs and individuals
5 acted. There was looting, robbery, contraband,
6 murders, and all the other common crimes which always
7 surfaced in the history of mankind wherever there is a
8 shortage of authority, regardless of whether there was
9 a war happening at the same time, an international war,
10 or if there was no war. But as soon as there is no
11 organised authority, then anarchy sets in, then
12 disorder and disarray sets in.
13 However, these incidents may not be
14 attributed to a people which lives there. One may not
15 claim that the only victims of that disorder or at
16 least that the only of victims of this are Muslims,
17 because that is not true. Everybody was a victim. The
18 degree of victimisation varied from time to time, but
19 everybody was a victim. That is why we submit that
20 there is no persecution, and that is beyond any doubt,
21 until mid-April, simply there is no widespread and
22 systematic persecution of one entity. In other words,
23 an element of this criminal offence is missing.
24 Of course, we do not admit that this offence
25 was committed after the 16th of April. We merely wish
Page 16958
1 to confirm, and we shall show it through the evidence
2 we shall submit, that until the 16th of April, 1993,
3 there could not have been the crime of persecution, and
4 after the 16th of April, 1994 -- 1993 -- excuse me --
5 the situation changes. We have a different interplay
6 of events. And the indictment also says that some
7 other crimes were perpetrated, very specific and very
8 precise, and not a general crime such as persecution
9 is, because the circumstances changed and because an
10 open conflict broke out between these two peoples.
11 In the lower part of my graph, I also
12 indicated what would be our second line of defence, if
13 I may put it that way, which was the position: What
14 was the role of Mario Cerkez during that period of
15 time?
16 There is a small error here, but I'll come to
17 that later.
18 To begin with, we cannot talk about the
19 period of time between April 1992 as the beginning of
20 the period covered by the indictment for this crime,
21 simply because the municipal staff of the HVO, which
22 was the umbrella organisation of the HVO in the
23 municipality of Vitez, was not even founded until
24 sometime in May or June, when it began to work, when it
25 found personnel, and when it was organised.
Page 16959
1 The indictment seems to be covering a period
2 which is about a month and a half too early, because if
3 we follow this logic, one could speak already about
4 1991, which is when, for the first time, the Serbs used
5 military force to attack Grude -- excuse me -- Ravno in
6 Bosnia.
7 The next point in time which I believe must
8 bear in mind is October 1992, when after the
9 reorganisation, the municipal staff of the HVO in Vitez
10 ceased to exist and when the defence office was
11 established. And the commander of that staff, until
12 that time, Mr. Mario Skopljak, and Mario Cerkez's
13 superior, his boss, became the head of that office. It
14 was the called the Ministry of Defence, so the
15 Municipal Ministry of Defence. And needless to say,
16 all the affairs and all the functions and duties were
17 transferred to this new body headed by Mr. Marijan
18 Skopljak, whereas Cerkez stayed at the headquarters and
19 his role there has never been explained, but we shall
20 show it during our case. But perhaps I might mention
21 it right now.
22 In the former staff, Mr. Cerkez was a man who
23 looked after the house until the new house was being
24 moved in, and there was a plan to send him to a new
25 post in the course of that reorganisation, and that is
Page 16960
1 what was done, because in November 1992, Cerkez
2 became -- Cerkez was designated, was appointed a member
3 of the command of the newly formed Intermunicipal
4 Brigade, that is, the joint brigade of two
5 municipalities, of Novi Travnik and Vitez, which was
6 then founded in order to strengthen and organise better
7 the struggle against the Serbs along the front lines
8 north-west of Travnik, that is, on Vlasic and around
9 Turbe.
10 The only objective and the only business of
11 that brigade was to fight against the Serbs. The only
12 duty which Mario Cerkez was to perform at the time was
13 to fight against the Serbs, who were occupiers, and
14 those were purely and clearly military relations.
15 In February 1993, and this is my comment --
16 it says February 1992, it should be February 1993, but
17 it is quite clear here -- Cerkez was appointed the de
18 facto commander of that brigade, of the Stjepan
19 Tomasevic Brigade. And we shall also be introducing
20 evidence, some of it has already been introduced, he
21 was never appointed the formal appointment. He was
22 never appointed the commander of the brigade in the
23 formal, in the fully legal sense of the word for
24 various reasons, and I do not think they are
25 particularly legally relevant. I shall say it had to
Page 16961
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Page 16962
1 do with some personnel relations or plans of some of
2 the higher officers. But Cerkez was appointed, as that
3 order says, as the representative of the commander,
4 because, evidently, there were some other plans about
5 further transformation. So that was a kind of a
6 provisional solution. However, the Defence agrees that
7 for about a month or for six weeks, Mario Cerkez was a
8 de facto commander of the Stjepan Tomasevic.
9 At the time, he was quartered in Novi Travnik
10 where the headquarters of the brigade, where the
11 command of that brigade was, and that the command was
12 in Novi Travnik so as to be as close to the positions
13 on which this brigade was deployed, that is, its area
14 of operations, the front line against Serbs, to be as
15 close as possible to those positions, and there,
16 regardless of the period of time, Mr. Cerkez was only a
17 member of the command or even as a commander, but
18 again, his whole duty -- his whole activity came down
19 to the fight against the Serbs.
20 We have already submitted some evidence, and
21 we shall adduce new evidence, that in Novi Travnik at
22 that time, and that is late November until mid-March,
23 and that is the period of time when Cerkez was in Novi
24 Travnik, there were no -- any conflicts worth
25 mentioning between Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats
Page 16963
1 in Novi Travnik.
2 Now we go back to one of the elements of that
3 crime, the persecution, the territory, because the
4 indictment claims that Cerkez is responsible for that
5 criminal offence in the territory of Novi Travnik,
6 Vitez, and Busovaca. So during that period of time,
7 Cerkez was not in Vitez, and there were no incidents
8 which would lend credence to the claim that such crimes
9 were committed in Novi Travnik, and none of them were
10 adduced here, let alone that there was absolutely no
11 evidence that Cerkez took part in the persecutions in
12 Busovaca, because he has never been there.
13 Be that as it may, on the 23rd of March,
14 1993, that is, three weeks before the open conflict
15 between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims,
16 Cerkez was appointed the commander of the newly formed
17 Vitez Brigade, having been doing some preparatory
18 activities for some days or so in the municipal
19 government, and at the request of his commander,
20 rather, the commander of that particular area of
21 responsibility, Mr. Blaskic, he performed some
22 preparatory activities, wrote a report. And the
23 municipal government endorsed Cerkez's proposals and
24 suggested and proposed solutions to the commander of
25 the Operative Zone, Blaskic, and these solutions were
Page 16964
1 to set up a municipal brigade as it had been suggested
2 earlier by the municipality, to call that brigade Vitez
3 Brigade, to have its headquarters in the building of
4 the cinema where some vacant offices were found, and
5 that he should be the member of this -- and that the
6 municipal officers should be members of this command,
7 which shall all -- which -- and on the 23rd of March,
8 Colonel Blaskic appointed Mario Cerkez as the commander
9 of the Vitez Brigade, as the commander of that zone of
10 operations. That was three weeks before the beginning
11 of the operations. A newly formed brigade.
12 It is claimed that it was the crucial armed
13 force in the territory of Vitez, in the Vitez pocket,
14 and I believe it is beyond any doubt -- it will be
15 shown beyond any doubt that it was surrounded by much
16 strong forces, by incomparably strong forces of the
17 army of B and H, and as of that time, that is, the 16th
18 of April, the conflict with those superior forces
19 began.
20 The brigade was some 300 men strong. It did
21 not have even its internal organisation. When we begin
22 presenting our evidence, we will show what the
23 composition of that brigade was in terms of skilled,
24 that is, trained officers. There were hardly any. And
25 needless to say, men, soldiers, of whom some had done
Page 16965
1 their military service in the JNA, because the service
2 with the JNA was obligatory, but some of them had not
3 had any training whatsoever. They had some minimum
4 weaponry at their disposal. And this brigade was then
5 expected, on the 16th of April, to take part in a
6 conflict which, according to the Prosecution, marked --
7 was begun by the bad side, by the bad guy; that is, the
8 HVO. We do not think that this was proven. We think
9 there are elements pointing in the opposite direction,
10 and we shall endeavour to show it during our case.
11 As one of the commanders of one of the army
12 units in Vitez, on the 15th of April, was warned by his
13 commander that all the necessary measures should be
14 undertaken to raise the degree of preparedness and that
15 an attack could be expected. However, Cerkez did not
16 lend credence to this warning, whether he was right or
17 not. Evidently, the evidence pointed to the contrary,
18 that he was wrong.
19 However, it is a fact that on the 14th of
20 April, even though some witnesses claimed here it was
21 on the 15th, we will show this was on the 14th, Cerkez
22 personally spent the whole afternoon at the
23 headquarters, rather, with his colleagues from the
24 BH army. He participated in the celebration of the
25 first anniversary of the formation of the ABiH army,
Page 16966
1 and he spent the whole day in Vitez with officers of
2 the Bosniak side who, at that time, were his fellow
3 officers and colleagues, because at that moment, they
4 were still fighting together against the Serbs on the
5 front lines in the mountains, because at that moment,
6 on the eve of the conflict, two days before the
7 conflict and on the day of the conflict itself, a
8 shift, part of the Vitez Brigade of some 70 men, was on
9 the front lines against the Serbs, because they were
10 sharing this sector. To the right and to the left of
11 them were the forces of the army of B and H, because
12 throughout 1992, they were coordinating their defence.
13 In other words, Cerkez naturally took part in
14 the celebration, in the anniversary, in the first
15 anniversary of the army of B and H because they are his
16 comrades. They are his colleagues. It is quite true
17 that at that time, there was also some altercations.
18 There was also different views. There were political
19 differences, but these do did not stop the soldiers
20 from coordinating as much as it was necessary to
21 coordinate things in pursuit of their common objective,
22 which at that time was the struggle against the Serbs.
23 Not only because that was a task defined by the
24 military, but also because as the indigenous population
25 to that area, they also knew that that was a threat to
Page 16967
1 their life. The Serbs were advancing and somewhere a
2 line should be drawn, somewhere they should be stopped.
3 I only wish to say, and I believe it will be
4 clear from our case, that the soldiers did not blindly
5 comply with the orders that every individual, that
6 every recruit who was called to join the war did not do
7 it because he simply blindly complied with his orders.
8 They were doing it for a very normal human response.
9 That was, self-defence. The Serbs were advancing. At
10 that moment, the Serbs held 70 per cent of the Bosnian
11 territory. Everybody could see that on television, and
12 any citizen of Bosnia, who had any brains, knew what it
13 was all about. Sarajevo was being besieged. A huge
14 military force had almost subjugated Bosnia almost
15 completely. Everybody, of course, hoped that that war
16 would not happen in his own village.
17 The only difference was that some were naive
18 and just sat quietly, hoping that would resolve the war
19 for them, and others, to put it in quite simple terms,
20 others were brighter, more pragmatic, they did not
21 think that somebody would solve the war for them, so
22 they organised themselves, they armed themselves, and
23 they defended themselves. So that was on the 14th of
24 April.
25 On the 15th of April, Cerkez went to marry.
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Page 16969
1 His wedding was in the church on the 14th -- or the
2 15th of April, in the afternoon. I believe it was at
3 1600. And we shall also be adducing evidence to that
4 effect.
5 True, he had already concluded a civil
6 marriage in 1980, but at that time, he decided to also
7 undergo a church ceremony and church marriage out of
8 respect for tradition, because before that and he could
9 not do that in view of the job that he held, because
10 during the former Yugoslavia, people who had church
11 weddings were not looked too benevolently upon. Cerkez
12 was a clerk in the municipality in the Secretariat for
13 Defence and in the SPS factory, and for those reasons
14 he simply did not undergo a church marriage. So he
15 decided, on the 15th of April, that is, on eve of the
16 war, to do so. Of course, he does not know that a war
17 will break out next day.
18 And I believe that some rules of logic allow
19 such a conclusion. Even though it is true that Blaskic
20 warned his troops to raise the degree of preparedness,
21 because one could expect the attack of the opposite
22 side the next day, but such calls for higher
23 preparedness had been issued before and nothing ever
24 happened. And so after consulting a man from his
25 command, Cerkez and all the others decided that it was
Page 16970
1 one of the alarms which would lead to nothing.
2 Unfortunately, they were wrong, and the war broke out
3 the next day.
4 In the evening of that day, the 15th of
5 April, 1993, Cerkez was issued a verbal order, and
6 after a conversation with Blaskic, Blaskic prepared the
7 defenders of Vitez and surrounding villages on the
8 basis of information that he had at his disposal, and I
9 will not go into that now. And Blaskic tried to get
10 ready for that possibility. He made Cerkez responsible
11 for blocking or, rather, for preparing the blockade,
12 the barricade of some roads, all possible directions of
13 attack of the Bosnia army from Kruscica and Vranjska,
14 which is slightly below it, towards the centre of the
15 town.
16 Why did he send him there? That is,
17 evidently, one of questions which needs to be
18 explained, and we shall do so. He spent him there. We
19 know that at that particular moment in time, the
20 brigade was some 300 men strong, men who were not in
21 the barracks, men who were on call, that is, who would
22 be summoned and report for duty. And he sent them
23 there, because at that time, a small unit or, rather, a
24 group, a shift, which was getting ready for the next
25 shift on the front line against the Serbs was staying
Page 16971
1 at a motel south of Kruscica, up on a hill, where the
2 shifts were being readied for the departure to the
3 front. That is, the system of work even before, during
4 the municipal headquarters and now when there was this
5 brigade, Vitez Brigade, was such, because the soldiers
6 were not quartered in the barracks, they were living at
7 home.
8 So the system was to simply call soldiers
9 from a list, and every shift should -- had some 100
10 men. So these men would then report when summoned, and
11 at that moment, they become mobilised soldiers. Then
12 they spent seven days getting ready to take up their
13 shift, training, weapons, ammunition, stocking, various
14 tasks, and then they would spend a week in the
15 mountains north-west of Travnik to the defence line of
16 the Serbs, that is, to defend themselves against the
17 Serbs. Then they go back to their village, and go home
18 and work their land, if they are farmers, or back to
19 their enterprises if they're salaried employees, or
20 whatever. Be that as it may, for two or three weeks,
21 they are free citizens; they are not soldiers.
22 So in that night between the 15th and the
23 16th, Cerkez was getting ready such a shift in a motel
24 south of Kruscica, and that group -- those troops were
25 used to form a possible -- to prepare a possible
Page 16972
1 defence if an attack ensued the next day.
2 What happened? In the morning when the
3 conflict started, and our submission and our position
4 is that it was the Muslim side that initiated it, the
5 members of the Vitez Brigade who were deployed due
6 north of Kruscica, that is, along the main supply route
7 and Vranjska main supply route, that is, between those
8 areas and the centre of town, were in their positions,
9 but they were unable to prevent the movement of troops,
10 and for all practical purposes, we can say that they
11 withdrew from their initial positions down towards the
12 main road, and this demonstrates very well what the
13 different forces were, to say nothing of their poor
14 equipment and lack of training on the part of them,
15 even though some of them had some experience in the
16 fighting against the Serbs, but the fighting against
17 the Serbs was really trench war, and from what I
18 understood in talking to these people, it did not
19 differ much from what went on during World War I,
20 except that there was no artillery support there. So I
21 think this is enough, as far as the events leading up
22 to the conflict are concerned.
23 Now, at the moment when the conflict broke
24 out, the brigade was deployed in their positions. And
25 the conflict also broke out in other areas, but we are
Page 16973
1 going to restrict ourselves only to the Vitez
2 municipality. And this horrible, tragic event in
3 Ahmici took place, but I want again to point out that
4 my client's brigade was not in Ahmici. Ahmici is
5 located due north, that is, the north side, north of
6 the road, and they were on the south side of the road,
7 and the evidence will show they were sharing these
8 positions with another unit. And all crimes that took
9 place in Ahmici took place on the 16th of April, and I
10 think enough evidence has been produced to support
11 that.
12 In the course of the conflict from the 16th
13 of April on in the territory of the Vitez municipality,
14 and partly even before the conflict, there were various
15 HVO units deployed in the area. We have seen so far
16 that the Operative Zone headquarters, that is, the high
17 command for that area of Bosnia, was in the town of
18 Vitez, in the Vitez Hotel, just several hundred metres
19 away from Mr. Cerkez' headquarters. That is where the
20 military police was stationed, the 4th Battalion of the
21 military police, a well-organised unit which had its
22 active personnel, had its specialised platoons for
23 various tasks, including combat, for the toughest jobs,
24 and also contained a unit named Jokers, who were
25 headquartered in another location, in a bungalow area.
Page 16974
1 And then there were Vitezovi who size-wise
2 were not perhaps as large, but they were significant
3 because they were mobile, well equipped, and also had
4 very good morale, very aggressive, and the evidence
5 will reflect that.
6 And also before the conflict, there were
7 troops there who were from outside, Ludvig Pavlovic and
8 Bruno Busic Brigades, who were brought in to reinforce
9 the position against the Serbs, but, unfortunately,
10 their activities may have been more eating, drinking
11 and looting, and they provided very little in terms of
12 contribution to the effort.
13 And there were also other brigades, the
14 Frankopan Brigade, which was part of the overall
15 defence system, and Tvrtko too as another
16 special-purpose unit, and some other units.
17 The Defence submits, and we will produce
18 evidence in support of this submission, that the
19 accused Mario Cerkez -- that is, he never committed any
20 criminal act, either as a direct or indirect
21 perpetrator, including all criminal acts charged in the
22 indictment, and the Defence submits that Mr. Cerkez
23 also cannot be held accountable based on the superior
24 authority because no soldiers under his command
25 committed any crimes.
Page 16975
1 We saw documents which were introduced
2 through the Witness Spork and which may raise some
3 doubts, but in the presentation of our evidence we will
4 show that these documents are not what they seem to
5 be. These documents do not provide a solid foundation
6 for any conclusions. And even if we took them at their
7 face value, they do not lead to conclusions that a
8 person who committed certain crimes at a specific time
9 in a specific place was ever a member of the Vitez
10 Brigade, which could then potentially trigger off
11 Mr. Cerkez' responsibility as the superior authority.
12 The next point in the Defence is that, of
13 course, a commander must know or, in given
14 circumstances, objectively could foresee or know that a
15 crime could take place or did take place. If so
16 construed, certain events where it was alleged that
17 members of the brigade had committed any crimes cannot
18 stand, because at the time of the commission of such a
19 crime, no information about the commission of the crime
20 was ever produced because the witness who mentioned
21 this said that this information reached the superiors
22 only much, much later. So if the superior commander
23 did not know about it at that time, he was not in a
24 position to act.
25 Another point that was made in the indictment
Page 16976
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Page 16977
1 was that Mr. Cerkez was the superior commander in the
2 territory, and the interpretation of this criminal act
3 with which Mr. Cerkez is charged can only rest on the
4 premise that Mr. Cerkez was the commander in the field
5 because it is not clear how Mr. Cerkez would have been
6 the superior commander in relation to other units.
7 Mr. Cerkez can only be responsible for certain criminal
8 acts, in terms of his superior authority, only if these
9 criminal acts were committed by those who were his
10 subordinates. He cannot be responsible for acts
11 committed by other -- by members of other military
12 units, even if he was the local commander in the
13 field. He was not the superior commander in this
14 zone. His unit was a local unit and it was only active
15 in a front line against the Serbs, and he can only be
16 construed to be responsible if he was the commander in
17 the territory. I think that this theory has already
18 been demonstrated to be unfounded, and we will provide
19 further evidence in support of it. We will also show
20 that many other units were in the area for which
21 Mr. Cerkez never had any responsibility and which he
22 could not have any command of.
23 In terms of his responsibility for other
24 units, I believe that we need to submit to the Trial
25 Chamber -- and we only heard very little about the
Page 16978
1 brigade military police, so if it is a brigade military
2 police, the conclusion should be that they were under
3 Cerkez' authority. But in order to clarify things, I
4 want to point out that the brigade military police did
5 not exist until sometime in September 1993, when there
6 were some structural reorganisations, and despite the
7 theory that is being promulgated here on the basis of
8 the JNA concept or the NATO structures, despite all
9 these fine theories, the fact is that the Vitez
10 Brigade, in its organisation, even in its theoretical
11 model, let alone in its application in the field, did
12 not have military police.
13 The Trial Chamber heard something about the
14 organisation of the justice system. The Kordic Defence
15 touched upon this, and I will not elaborate. But I
16 would just like to point out that in order to fully
17 explain the theory of this brigade military police,
18 within the 4th Battalion of the military police, with
19 its headquarters in the Hotel Vitez, also contained a
20 platoon, a military police platoon, that was tasked
21 with security, that is, the physical security of the
22 staff of the Vitez Brigade. This was a small platoon.
23 The size of it varied; 20 to 25 men. In terms of
24 formation strength, there should have been 30, and they
25 were attached to the cinema theatre where the brigade
Page 16979
1 headquarters were. And so this detached platoon
2 provided security for the headquarters and for the
3 staff and everything that related to it. This is where
4 members of this platoon were deployed, and it is a
5 matter of semantics, that it was how the people called
6 them, that they were the brigade police, because that
7 is where they were deployed.
8 It is important not only in legal terms but
9 also in practical terms, to whom they were
10 subordinated, who had authority over them, and this is
11 what we will deal with, and we will show who it was who
12 was the commander of this platoon to whom they were
13 answerable and to whom they reported. We will show
14 that it was not Mario Cerkez but another person whose
15 name has been mentioned here before.
16 Next, let me turn to Ahmici, because it is
17 really the crux of this case.
18 In the evidence presented so far, and I
19 believe it is not necessary for us to prove it any
20 further but I think that it will become clear through
21 the presentation of our evidence, the tragedy of Ahmici
22 took place in the morning hours of the 16th of April,
23 1993. According to some evidence, everything was
24 finished by somewhere around 10.00 in the morning. But
25 in the conservative estimate, the conflict at Ahmici
Page 16980
1 was finished by the noon of that day.
2 As far as my client is concerned and his
3 brigade, among the outstanding documents, in addition
4 to hundreds of other documents, we received two
5 documents which showed that two members of the brigade
6 were killed in Ahmici on that day, so the conclusion is
7 offered because they were members of the brigade,
8 because they were killed in Ahmici, Mr. Cerkez is
9 responsible because he was their commander. First of
10 all, I don't think we have all the facts in place in
11 regards to that, but we will still show in the
12 presentation of our evidence that those two persons
13 were, indeed, members of the brigade. That is, we are
14 certain of one, that he was a member of the brigade,
15 but the other one, we're still not sure of the other.
16 They were both killed in front of their homes, at their
17 doorsteps. Why? From the documents offered so far,
18 this is not clear, because the documents which were
19 offered so far only show that a certain person was
20 killed.
21 In fact, I need to make a correction. One of
22 these individuals was only wounded.
23 And because Ahmici is so important and this
24 person was a member of the brigade, because he is on
25 the list of brigade members, certain conclusions are
Page 16981
1 made. But we will show that these people were killed
2 because they lived there and that it has nothing to do
3 with their wartime assignments, it has nothing to do
4 with any orders which placed them there, because they
5 simply found themselves there because they had not been
6 assigned to any particular duties at that moment in
7 time.
8 The charges against Mr. Cerkez were built on
9 circumstantial evidence, and I need to show that such
10 evidence cannot stand on its own. Later in the
11 presentation of our case, I will give some more space
12 to this, and we will use some portions of transcripts
13 from other cases. But suffice it to say that there
14 were other units in Ahmici which were clearly
15 recognised, including a unit of the 4th Battalion of
16 the military police and the Joker units, but the Vitez
17 Brigade members were not there, and the evidence
18 offered so far show clearly where the brigade was
19 supposed to be on that day, and we will demonstrate
20 that they were there on the 16th of April. It was
21 south of the main road on the 16th of April.
22 Mr. Sayers spoke quite a lot about the
23 investigation of Ahmici, but let me just add a few
24 comments.
25 Colonel Stewart told Mr. Cerkez that it would
Page 16982
1 be good if he launched an investigation on Ahmici, but
2 Colonel Stewart, only an hour before he addressed
3 Mr. Cerkez, had asked the same of Mr. Blaskic, who was
4 Mr. Cerkez' superior. Of course, Mr. Cerkez informed
5 Mr. Blaskic of his conversation with Colonel Stewart,
6 and it was then that he learned that Colonel Stewart
7 made such a request to Mr. Blaskic.
8 Second, Mr. Cerkez should have launched an
9 investigation within his own unit, but Mr. Cerkez had
10 no authority to do so, including the crime in Ahmici,
11 if it concerned another unit and not the unit of which
12 he was the commander. It follows from this very
13 logically that Mr. Cerkez should have started an
14 investigation on the crime in Ahmici only if he knew or
15 was aware that his unit was involved in this crime and
16 in this area or if he received such orders from his
17 superior officers. In this particular case, it is
18 clear that Mr. Blaskic did not order Mr. Cerkez to
19 conduct such an investigation. And why did he not
20 order him to do so? Because he knew who was deployed
21 there. We have seen which units were ordered to
22 conduct an investigation. He ordered it to the
23 military police. When he did not get any results, he
24 involved SIS as a service for which he assumed and for
25 which it was generally believed that it had
Page 16983
1 capabilities to conduct such an investigation.
2 Thirdly, in keeping with the regulations
3 which were in force at the time regarding an
4 investigation of a criminal act, and it appears to be
5 clear that Mr. Blaskic understood that there was a
6 criminal act involved at least since his conversation
7 with Colonel Stewart, according to the law the
8 competent authority was the justice system. So if the
9 military police was involved, it would have been the
10 military prosecutor which was competent and the
11 military court which was to conduct and get involved in
12 this case.
13 An outsider, according to the law, be it a
14 military person or a common citizen, could only suggest
15 that an investigation be launched, because there is a
16 provision in the law that if someone should learn of a
17 crime having been committed, they should inform the
18 proper authority about it. It is only a suggestion,
19 then, that if an individual believed -- and this
20 individual could be a citizen or a military person --
21 they could pick up the phone, or write, or walk into an
22 office of the proper authority, and this proper
23 authority would then initiate the proceedings. Of
24 course, if an officer, that is, a person of authority,
25 would report such a crime, the military prosecutor's
Page 16984
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14 the French and English transcripts.
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22
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24
25
Page 16985
1 office will consider such information more seriously
2 and give it more weight. But according to the law, it
3 is clear that my client had no authority to conduct an
4 investigation, nor did he have any reason to do so.
5 Fourth, it was to be expected that Blaskic at
6 least would ask for some sort of report or an
7 explanation, perhaps even an investigation of
8 Mr. Cerkez, if -- during those initial days when the
9 Ahmici case arose, only if he had any suspicions that
10 the brigade or some elements of the brigade were in
11 Ahmici. But this was not the case. Not only did
12 Blaskic know what tasks he gave to which unit, and so
13 he did not ask any investigation at the brigade level,
14 but even in the subsequent dates after he may have
15 learned about some elements of what took place, he
16 still did not request any investigation on the brigade
17 level, which he didn't do because other units were in
18 Ahmici, as we heard.
19 Just one additional detail regarding Ahmici.
20 Even though the Defence accepts that a crime was
21 committed in Ahmici and that civilians were killed,
22 about 100 people -- it would have been a tragedy if
23 there had only been five dead -- still the Defence does
24 not accept that Ahmici was not a defended target. We
25 will provide evidence to support this, to show that a
Page 16986
1 small ABiH unit was deployed in Ahmici. There was
2 fighting there. There were HVO casualties there, after
3 all, even though this cannot justify the number of
4 civilian casualties there. But we cannot agree that
5 this was an undefended target.
6 In support of this, and that extends to some
7 other locations mentioned in the indictment which I
8 will name, it is not in dispute that in the Lasva River
9 Valley, where my client's unit was operating, the
10 strategic importance of the main supply route through
11 the Lasva River Valley is obviously very important to
12 consider. The military force that controls this road
13 and several key geographical features alongside the
14 road could have full control of the entire area. In
15 the Lasva River Valley, which includes the Vitez
16 pocket, which is surrounded by the ABiH forces,
17 according to all reasonable military standards the HVO
18 had to do its best to control the road, to maintain its
19 control, and that clearly put them on a collision
20 course with the Muslim forces.
21 The situation in the area was such that every
22 side protected their villages. Where there was a
23 Muslim majority, the ABiH protected the village, and
24 where the Croats were in majority, the HVO protected
25 the village. The only exceptions are key strategic
Page 16987
1 points, and this is where the two sides fought each
2 other.
3 An example of this is Stari Vitez, where,
4 according to all the facts that we have heard so far,
5 it was a legitimate military target there. There is no
6 doubt that there was an ABiH unit there which was an
7 armed and equipped unit which had its lines of supply,
8 a unit which kept its positions for 11 months, being
9 totally surrounded by the hostile force, that is, HVO,
10 and who kept it -- which held its ground in spite of
11 two HVO attempts to take over the area.
12 Why did the HVO want, aspire to take the area
13 of Stari Vitez? I believe that is quite clear. First
14 of all, because of the sniper fire which, to all
15 intents and purposes, blocked individual parts of Stari
16 Vitez and the remaining parts of the town; and
17 secondly, so as to control one of the two roads passing
18 through Ahmici and partial control of the other road,
19 the so-called roundabout, which was within the range of
20 snipers and artillery positions in Stari Vitez.
21 I'm now not going to list all the other
22 places, because I promised I would not. I wish to say
23 that in all those places where that was conflict
24 between the armija and the HVO and in which the Vitez
25 Brigade participated as of the 17th of April for
Page 16988
1 several days on, we do argue that these were all
2 legitimate military targets. And as of April, the
3 front lines practically were stabilised, with only
4 slight shifts, but the same positions were practically
5 held throughout the war.
6 And the luck of war, the forces of war
7 changed, and the HVO was obviously an inferior force as
8 of June if one looks at all the objective military
9 elements, that is the strength, the strategic
10 deployment, the level of equipment, the organisation,
11 number of professional officers, and everything else.
12 We also heard something about that, and we only need,
13 in our defence, to add some new elements in order to be
14 able to draw sounder conclusions.
15 So now the only remaining subject is the
16 international armed conflict. Some of the charges
17 would simply not exist if it were not as an
18 international armed conflict, but perhaps I should not
19 go into that, because Mr. Kordic's Defence covered
20 that, so as to avoid repetition, and maybe I should
21 only mention two sentences.
22 As for the evidence, we shall be using some
23 exhibits from other cases, and basically our thesis,
24 our argument, is that in this case, one cannot use the
25 so-called overall test from Tadic, because to simplify
Page 16989
1 it and waste as little time as possible, we believe
2 that the Croat-Muslim conflict, as already said, was
3 the consequence of the Serb aggression, and that it
4 was, in point of fact, another war from many different
5 points of view. We believe that we can submit many
6 conclusions in evidence that after the JNA aggression
7 supported by domestic and outside Serbs on Bosnia, that
8 is, Serbs, whichever, and the other side, Croats and
9 Muslims from Bosnia, in the first war, the consequence
10 of that was the conflict between the Muslims and
11 Bosnians in what we call, in inverted commas, the
12 second war. And if we compare those two wars, there we
13 see that there are major differences between them, and
14 that many elements are indicating that the Republic of
15 Croatia was not the Lord of that particular war, or the
16 master of that war.
17 I can go into that, but I think we shall be
18 dealing with it at greater length subsequently. This
19 is just a thesis that I wish to put forward, and only
20 two details that we shall use in defence merely to
21 illustrate some of the contradictions in the thesis
22 about Croatia as the master of that war, and that is
23 the fact that the explosives factory in Vitez, the SPS,
24 as it is usually called, as a powerful business
25 organisation, which also managed to relocate its money
Page 16990
1 and its organisation to Split before the war, that they
2 organised several helicopter flights which, yes, indeed
3 brought some equipment and which took away -- which
4 evacuated the wounded to the hospital in Split, and we
5 shall be producing some evidence to this effect.
6 So, for instance, a helicopter, and there
7 were some indications here that it was an HV
8 helicopter. We shall also show that there were
9 helicopters which were financed by a company from
10 Vitez, that is, a legal entity which has nothing to do
11 with Croatia.
12 We shall also be producing evidence, an
13 exhibit, showing that a soldier from Croatia but born
14 in Bosnia, in the summer of 1993 set off to Bosnia to
15 help his countrymen to defend themselves in a war.
16 When, from the Republic of Croatia he crossed the
17 border and wanted to enter the Republic of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then the border authorities
19 searched him, found a uniform and weapons, explained
20 that it was an infraction of regulations, that he could
21 not enter another republic with this equipment, and
22 took him to the misdemeanour magistrate. He was fined
23 there. The fine exceeded his monthly salary, and that
24 is a great deal of money. And so that all these
25 weapons were confiscated, were seized, and he was
Page 16991
1 turned back to Croatia. From what we could learn,
2 there were a number of such cases.
3 And another thing --
4 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Kovacic, it's now
5 nearly ten past eleven. Are you going to be very much
6 longer?
7 MR. KOVACIC: I will be finished in the next
8 three to five minutes. More than positive.
9 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] This is merely
11 an information which needs to be borne in mind when one
12 speaks about the correlation of forces and analyses the
13 reasons for that war.
14 The territory of the municipality of Vitez
15 was, of course, divided during the war and even before
16 the war because of the parallel authority. It had been
17 split up between the Bosnian Croats and Bosnian
18 Muslims, and everybody knew which area belonged to
19 whom, and we've already heard witnesses to that
20 effect.
21 Mathematically speaking, 75 per cent of the
22 Vitez territory was controlled by Bosnian Muslims, and
23 about 25 per cent was held by Croats and other peoples
24 present in the area. They were mostly Croats, but
25 there was a village of Roma, inhabited by Roma, and
Page 16992
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14 the French and English transcripts.
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Page 16993
1 some Serbs who at that time, regrettably, did not have
2 any villages of their own any longer because they had
3 been evicted, but there were some individuals present
4 there, and I think that a witness called Kajmovic spoke
5 about that.
6 And to corroborate our argument which we
7 shall go into, we think that the events in Vitez, that
8 the developments in Vitez may not be viewed -- isolated
9 from everything else. We think that they are a part
10 and a consequence of a very complex and very
11 conflicting -- contradictory picture about Bosnia.
12 I should like to conclude by quoting two
13 sentences from a letter of Witness Watters, that was
14 exhibit for the Defence, 57/1, and it is something that
15 we shall try to show. I think this was the best worded
16 sentence about this war, and I shall do it in English:
17 "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ...
18 faction blame to a specific faction prosecuting its
19 military or political advantage. It is convenient to
20 identify the corporate and level the blame in his
21 direction. It is comfortable but too simplistic.
22 There are no," in brackets, "(good guys and bad guys)
23 in this bitter civil war, there are only victims."
24 [Interpretation] Your Honours, I truly
25 believe that in our case, in addition to all that we
Page 16994
1 proved in the Prosecutor's case, that they were only
2 victims, and even if some crimes were committed, they
3 may not be either described, nor proven in the manner
4 that the Prosecution set out to do, and by attributing
5 the guilt to one side only, attributing the
6 responsibility to one side only, and trying to derive
7 individual responsibility from collective
8 responsibility, as a specialist -- as criminal lawyers,
9 we simply cannot accept that an act of crime is always
10 individual, even when we talk about the command
11 liability. Even then, if it is individual
12 responsibility, even had all the HVO brigades been
13 criminals, we have to prove here that the
14 responsibility of my client does not exist and that
15 my -- or that my client could have foreseen that or
16 prevented or punished it.
17 We do not think that the Prosecutor proved
18 it, and we believe that we shall corroborate it during
19 our case. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Kovacic.
21 We'll adjourn now for half an hour.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.14 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.46 a.m.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the
Page 16995
1 declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
3 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
4 and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: FILIP FILIPOVIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a
8 seat.
9 Mr. Naumovski, we've just been handed the
10 summary. It may be convenient, having heard what
11 Mr. Sayers said, and it seemed a sensible suggestion,
12 that the summary forms the basis of the evidence in
13 chief, it may be convenient then, and in order to save
14 time, if you simply went through it as quickly as you
15 can, dealing with any particular paragraphs you want to
16 draw our attention to.
17 MR. NICE: May I make one point at the
18 moment, Your Honour. We have only just received this
19 document. I have no idea whether I will be in a
20 position properly to cross-examine this witness, having
21 looked at it, and I have other observations to make
22 about the summaries and the way the evidence should
23 progress in any event in due course. Perhaps I can
24 reserve my position on that until we've heard what the
25 witness has to say.
Page 16996
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I'll just make this point,
2 that you're not entitled, under the Rules, to any
3 statement at all, so you're better off than you
4 normally would be.
5 MR. NICE: That may or may not be the case.
6 There's a provision for summaries, and I have
7 observations I wish to make about this later, but
8 better out of the presence of the witness.
9 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's get on with this
10 anyway, because we want to get through these witnesses
11 this week.
12 Yes.
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
14 Your Honours. We shall, of course, abide with what you
15 have just said.
16 So only a couple of introductory questions
17 for this witness. And our witness is retired Major
18 General Filip Filipovic.
19 Examined by Mr. Naumovski:
20 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you have read and went through
21 your statement, and you have the copy of it in front of
22 you in Serbo-Croatian?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All what is said here is what you stated to
25 the best of your knowledge and to the best of your
Page 16997
1 recollection, isn't it? What this statement says is
2 the extent and amount of your knowledge, isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn
5 declaration, you also confirm under oath that what is
6 stated here is accurate?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 then, in line with what has been agreed, I should like
10 to tender it into evidence, and I should like to get
11 the number for it.
12 JUDGE MAY: Any objection?
13 MR. NICE: Yes. I haven't had a chance to
14 read it, and in those circumstances, I can't express
15 any view as to the propriety of allowing this
16 particular document in as an exhibit at this stage.
17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. At this stage,
18 Mr. Naumovski, since there are challenges to it, the
19 best course would be this: The witness, having looked
20 at the document and confirmed its truth, those matters,
21 as I say, on which you rely, draw his attention to
22 them. You can get his evidence on the particular
23 point.
24 Now, the background matters I don't imagine
25 are particularly disputed; the first page, for
Page 16998
1 instance. Just take the witness quickly to -- I think
2 we can read the first two pages, for instance. If you
3 want to go to paragraph 16 and take the witness quickly
4 through that part of the evidence, you should.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
6 Your Honours. Then we shall quickly go through this
7 first introductory part.
8 Q. General, you were born on the 1st of March,
9 1946, in Travnik. You're married and the father of
10 three children, aren't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And having completed your secondary education
13 in Travnik in 1965, you enrolled in the Military
14 Academy in Belgrade, and you rounded off your military
15 education by attending commander school at the Visoke
16 Oficire in Belgrade and graduating from it in 1979?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And at present you are the chief manager of a
19 de-mining operation which is under the jurisdiction of
20 the Council of Ministers of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, a couple of remarks
23 regarding your former service with the JNA, and these
24 are points 7 to 15, and subsequently, of course, in the
25 HVO.
Page 16999
1 So in the JNA, you held responsible posts.
2 You had quite a nice career as a professional officer,
3 didn't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You left the JNA of your own free will on the
6 10th of April, 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And clearly, at that time, you were a
9 colonel.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In view of your military training, education,
12 you returned to your municipality, to your town, which
13 is Travnik, and you immediately placed yourself at the
14 disposal of your people and became the first commander
15 of all HVO forces which were still being organised in
16 Central Bosnia.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. However, you did that for a very short period
19 of time, sometime until the 20th of May, 1992. And
20 then until October 1992, you were a special
21 headquarters commander in the Operative Zone of Central
22 Bosnia, under the command of Colonel Tihomir Blaskic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In October 1992, in Travnik, the then
25 commander of the Travnik Brigade, Ivica Stojak, was
Page 17000
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14 the French and English transcripts.
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22
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25
Page 17001
1 killed by members of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and you
2 came to -- and then you became the commander of the
3 Travnik Brigade?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That was not a kind of demotion in terms of
6 the duties that you performed, it was your voluntary --
7 you wanted to come and do that in view of the gravity
8 of the situation, knowing what the army of the
9 Republika Srpska was doing?
10 A. Yes, that was my choice.
11 Q. And you performed that duty until the end of
12 April 1993, or to be more precise, until the 28th of
13 April, 1993?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you were then replaced by Jozo Leutar who
16 was killed in an assassination attempt in Sarajevo, and
17 he was Deputy Minister of the Interior of the
18 Federation of B and H?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I think we are too fast, so shall we please
21 make a break, a pause between question and answer.
22 And now, very briefly, to go through the rest
23 of that period of time; at the end of April 1993, you
24 became a member of a joint commission of the ABiH and
25 the HVO that was created to deal with negotiations
Page 17002
1 about the ceasefire after the fighting in Travnik, and
2 you kept that duty until June 1993?
3 A. Yes. I was a member of this highest level
4 commission of the armija and the HVO.
5 Q. Could we clarify this? Under the command of
6 Mr. Petkovic, there was also Colonel Andric on the
7 Croat side, and on the side of the army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the commission included General
9 Sefer Halilovic, Rasim Delic, and Vehbija Karic.
10 A. Yes. You listed the most prominent
11 personalities there. On our side we also had
12 Mr. Totic, because we wanted to pull him out. He had
13 been abducted by Mujahedin forces. And on the Bosniak
14 side there were other officers sitting on the
15 commission. I cannot really -- I couldn't really list
16 exactly their names.
17 Q. If I understand you properly, the formal
18 appointment of Zivko Totic was to force the other side
19 to release him?
20 A. Yes, to begin with; secondly, he was a good
21 officer who could discharge a good job in this
22 commission.
23 Q. And in this introductory part, very briefly,
24 items 12 to 15 of the summary, on the 11th of June,
25 1993, you were appointed Deputy Commander for the
Page 17003
1 Operation Zone of Central Bosnia, that is, deputy of
2 Colonel Blaskic, and you were responsible for the
3 preparation of combat operations, and you kept that
4 post until March 1994, that is, the end of the war.
5 A. Yes. When I arrived in Central Bosnia or,
6 rather, on the 10th of June, in the evening of the
7 10th of June, it meant that in that highly unclear
8 situation that I should go quickly to the front lines
9 in order to stabilise the situation, because we had
10 suffered a complete collapse of our lines on the
11 western front, and along -- and in various other
12 segments of our front, the Muslim forces had broken
13 through.
14 Q. Thank you. In April 1994, you replaced
15 Colonel Blaskic at this post and you became the
16 commander of the Operative Zone, and you kept that post
17 for a year?
18 A. Yes. I was deputy commander to Blaskic
19 throughout the war, for the duration of the war,
20 between the Muslims and the Croats, that is, the BH
21 army and the HVO, until the agreement, the ceasefire
22 agreement after the conflict. When Blaskic had
23 departed, I was left there as the commander of the
24 Operative Zone.
25 Q. After a short stay in the second Operative
Page 17004
1 Zone, Tomislavgrad, in May 1995, you replaced
2 General Ante Roso in the joint command of the
3 Federation army; that is, you replaced an HVO officer
4 who used to be on the joint command?
5 A. Yes. The joint command of the Federation
6 army was headquartered in Sarajevo, and I entered
7 Sarajevo through a tunnel sometime in mid-May, and I
8 was the commanding officer there. I had the pendant,
9 that is, my counterpart was General Muslimovic and
10 Brigadier Backovic.
11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Just one question
12 more about your military career, that is point 15. On
13 the 31st of January, 1997, you retired from active
14 military duty, having attained the averaging of major
15 general in the army of the Federation of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that so?
17 A. It is.
18 Q. Now several questions to do with the initial
19 command structure of the HVO forces in Bosnia, and that
20 is item 16 onward. The Trial Chamber already has heard
21 something about that. Croats were discriminated in the
22 former JNA, and you were the first Croat from Central
23 Bosnia, from World War II up to that time, who went to
24 the school for high officers?
25 A. Yes. The 20 years after the war, it was
Page 17005
1 inconceivable for Croats to go to the military
2 academies, and only after the fall of Rankovic did it
3 become possible for the Croats to have military office
4 or careers.
5 Q. The military situation became uncertain and
6 dangerous for Muslims and Croats due to the aggression,
7 and the new Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was
8 just established, was never able to function properly
9 with all the institutions that country has.
10 A. It is very difficult to describe the
11 situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the days of
12 April and even March of 1992, but the fact is that
13 almost nothing functioned, and there was a general
14 collapse of the system.
15 Q. Due to this situation, the municipalities
16 which were isolated and with the difficulties in
17 communicating with them, the municipalities were left
18 to fend for themselves.
19 A. Not only municipalities but even at lower
20 levels. People organised themselves at the level of
21 the municipality, and that was considered at the
22 highest level, but they also did so in counties and in
23 individual villages. But the organisation at the
24 municipality level was the highest one that was still
25 functioning.
Page 17006
1 Q. In these difficult times, the HVO was
2 formally declared on the 8th of April, 1992?
3 A. I left the JNA on the 10th of April, 1992, in
4 Sarajevo and only later learned that the HVO was
5 established, and I arrived in the area of the Lasva
6 Valley on the 12th of April.
7 Q. You mean 1992?
8 A. Yes, 1992. And immediately I found this
9 chaotic situation, and knowing of the aggression of the
10 JNA and its further aggressive intentions, I
11 immediately offered my services because I knew that
12 among the Croats there was no person who was more
13 trained or more able to respond to the situation. So I
14 insisted myself to be made commander of the forces who
15 were on the ground in the area.
16 Q. This powerful attack by the Serb forces,
17 which were well trained, well equipped, and already in
18 the initial wave, occupied 70 per cent of the
19 territory, and this caused a flood of refugees in the
20 areas that were still not under occupation.
21 A. Perhaps there were not waves of refugees in
22 April, but in early May and on to June thousands of
23 people descended on the Central Bosnia area.
24 Q. We covered the establishment of the HVO.
25 That is point 9 of the summary. But in those days you
Page 17007
1 took an active part in the efforts to organise the HVO,
2 and you said that the biggest problem that you had was
3 trained officers because there were only about ten
4 career officers available, if I may call them that.
5 A. I tried to get involved not only in
6 organising Croats but also Muslims, because we expected
7 a very strong attack of the Bosnian Serb forces from
8 Mount Vlasic and the Komar Pass, which is the area of
9 Turbe. There were many armed individuals, but -- as
10 individuals, but there was no organisation in the sense
11 of professional command and control of these
12 individuals. And as far as Croats are concerned, at
13 that time there was almost no one available, and
14 through the war we were only able to gather less than
15 ten professional military officers who could be
16 involved.
17 Q. We will agree, I think, that in 1992 the HVO
18 developed as a military structure. The main staff was
19 formed, the operative zones were established, and at
20 the end of 1992 the HVO was fairly organised and
21 represented a significant force.
22 A. Yes. Between April and the end of 1992, we
23 were able to organise people, and the combat forced us
24 to train them to repel attacks from the areas, as I
25 said, of Mount Vlasic and Komar and the town of Jajce.
Page 17008
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14 the French and English transcripts.
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Page 17009
1 We also managed to link up with the Jajce enclave in
2 the summer of 1992, and that was all put together as a
3 whole.
4 Q. When the HVO developed, it separated itself
5 from the civilian authorities, and we know that in the
6 summer of 1992 an HVO civilian government was
7 established, led by Dr. Jadranko Prlic.
8 A. Initially, it was difficult to separate these
9 different parts of the HVO. First, it was all HVO, and
10 then later on obviously we separated out as a military
11 entity and we worked to establish it apart from the
12 other segments of society.
13 Q. Another detail relating to the organisation.
14 This is point 20. You said that the Muslims -- the
15 ABiH army had many more trained officers who had come
16 from the ranks of the JNA, including some of those who
17 were retired from the JNA, so that it was easier for
18 the ABiH to organise itself militarily than it was for
19 the HVO because it had more officer staff.
20 A. As early as May in 1992, and then it
21 continued in June, a number of ethnic Muslim military
22 officers arrived in this Central Bosnia territory, and
23 there were ten times more of them than there were
24 Croats. I could name you at least 20 right off the
25 cuff, and they represented a strong presence in this
Page 17010
1 area. It included a lot of professional military
2 officers who joined the ranks of the Territorial
3 Defence or the ABiH, as these names kept changing. So
4 by this influx, the balance which was in place in this
5 particular small area for a very long period of time
6 was significantly upset, and the units of the BiH army,
7 starting in June 1992, had developed a much larger
8 force not only in terms of the number of soldiers but
9 also professional staff, with perhaps the exception of
10 materiel and equipment.
11 Q. Paragraph 21 addresses the personnel which
12 came through the Operative Zone between May 1992 and
13 June 1992, when Colonel Blaskic became the commander of
14 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone.
15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, we can read that
16 paragraph. You can take it very quickly.
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
18 Your Honour. This is exactly the point that I was
19 trying to make.
20 Q. General, there's no need to list everybody
21 who followed you in the post, but you proposed, to
22 General Petkovic, Tihomir Blaskic for the commander of
23 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone in June 1992?
24 A. Yes. One of the commanders was taken
25 prisoner. Then, given the size of the problem that we
Page 17011
1 encountered in the area, it became very clear very fast
2 that we needed a professional soldier for that
3 position, and we had one in the person of Tihomir
4 Blaskic.
5 Q. Let's move straight to paragraph 22. After
6 Colonel Blaskic's appointment as commander of the
7 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, he undertook a series of
8 organisational measures and appointed Franjo Nakic as
9 chief of staff of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone.
10 And with this, the organisational structure of the HVO
11 forces in Central Bosnia was finally established.
12 A. Yes. Throughout 1992, we were looking for
13 the best way to organise, and towards the end of 1992
14 we developed a form which seemed the most efficient,
15 given the circumstances at the time.
16 Q. Moving to paragraph 23. When you arrived in
17 Central Bosnia in April 1992, you had a good
18 relationship with your counterparts in the Territorial
19 Defence. However, after about two months after you
20 returned to the Travnik area, the Muslims started
21 replacing their military commanders in the area with
22 persons who were new men who were members of the SDA
23 party, and you know that by mid-1992 the Muslims had
24 replaced all of their commanders who had previously
25 enjoyed good relations with the Croats in the Travnik,
Page 17012
1 Novi Travnik, and Vitez areas.
2 A. From the very start, I had established very
3 good relations with local commanders, Cengic in Vitez,
4 Trako in Novi Travnik, and the gentleman in Novi
5 Travnik, and we worked to facilitate an orderly
6 pull-out of the JNA from that area. I was involved in
7 the secure departure of the JNA garrison from Travnik,
8 which included the civilians who wanted to leave
9 alongside the military in a single convoy, and this was
10 all fine.
11 All of a sudden, new people arrived who were
12 not local, who imposed themselves as new leaders, and
13 the local people with whom I had worked until then in
14 those structures disappeared and people like Alagic,
15 Cuskic, Merdan, and others took their places.
16 Q. General Filipovic, were you ever a member of
17 the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic Union?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Several questions relating to the chain of
20 command, which is paragraphs 24 through 28.
21 We talked about the military organisation of
22 the HVO, but parallel to that, the civilian
23 institutions of the HZ HB were also established, the
24 institution of the president was established sometime
25 in early July 1992, and the president of the HZ HB
Page 17013
1 became the commander-in-chief of the HVO. Is that
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. According to the decree on the armed forces,
5 the Main Staff of the HVO was established as well as
6 defence departments, some kind of Ministry of Defence.
7 A. Yes, but I myself cannot speak very well
8 about it, because we only received information on that
9 indirectly. We did not have such direct links with
10 these institutions and with the president of the
11 HZ HB. Occasionally, yes, and we also received
12 communications about their work.
13 Q. Very well. Paragraph 25. In 1992 and until
14 late July or early August 1993, Brigadier Milivoj
15 Petkovic was the commander in chief of the HVO armed
16 forces. He was succeeded in this post by General
17 Slobodan Praljak, and then he in turn was replaced in
18 late November 1993 by General Ante Roso.
19 A. I'm not sure of the exact dates, but that was
20 the sequence of events as far as the commander-in-chief
21 of the HVO succession is concerned.
22 Q. Moving on to paragraph 26. The armed forces
23 of the HVO were organised into four Operative Zones.
24 Is that correct?
25 A. Yes. The first, second, third, and fourth.
Page 17014
1 Q. The one relevant for us here was the Central
2 Bosnia Operative Zone, which I believe was labelled as
3 the third Operative Zone. Let me just formulate the
4 question. It covered the municipalities, and we have
5 the names here. I think we don't need to name them
6 each. I think we can just agree on them. Is that
7 correct?
8 A. In essence, it was the entire Bosnia without
9 the Posavina region and without Herzegovina.
10 Q. After the initial organisational problems,
11 when finally Colonel Blaskic was appointed commander of
12 the Operative Zone in June 1992, for a short period the
13 headquarters was in Kruscica and then it was moved to
14 the town of Vitez, in the Hotel Vitez, where it
15 remained until the end of the war.
16 A. Yes. The headquarters of the Central Bosnia
17 Operative Zone was in Kruscica, in the Motel Lovac, in
18 the summer of 1992. This was a mixed village of
19 Croat-Muslim, but after the incidents which took place
20 in that area during that period, Colonel Blaskic
21 decided to move his headquarters to the Hotel Vitez,
22 and this was done in the fall of --
23 Q. 1992?
24 A. -- 1992, and it remained there until the end
25 of the war.
Page 17015
1 Q. Moving on to paragraph 27. In this area of
2 the Operative Zone, there were several brigades that
3 were operating. For instance, the Busovaca Brigade was
4 named the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski, and it was commanded
5 by Niko Jozinovic, and then when the brigade moved to
6 Zepce, he was replaced by Dusko Grubesic.
7 A. Yes, when we arrived at the point where we
8 were able to establish brigades. But you have to
9 understand the context. We were constantly shelled by
10 the Serb forces and there were frictions between the
11 Croats and Muslims. So the process was very slow and
12 painstaking. And the organisation, at first, went on
13 within individual villages and then groups of village,
14 and it went first, organisationally speaking, from
15 companies and then up to the brigades. The example you
16 have cited here is correct as you put it.
17 Q. So far in this case, we have often heard
18 about the HVO brigades. You are a person who is more
19 competent than anybody else to tell us what they were.
20 In its name, it may sound like the military unit that
21 is established along NATO and some other standards, but
22 what was it in reality?
23 A. We did it for a certain effect, for the
24 enemy, so that we would look as more sizeable. In terms
25 of inner organisation, this would not be described as
Page 17016
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14 the French and English transcripts.
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Page 17017
1 brigades. You could still exercise command and
2 control, but there was not enough time to set up a full
3 military organisation. You need a time of peace and
4 maybe a year or two to do so. You can move faster in
5 the case that we had, which was one of war. But it
6 could not have been called a brigade according to the
7 NATO standards or many other standards, for that
8 matter.
9 Q. Final paragraph, 28. In this part, the
10 brigades were organised into battalions, and they --
11 into a company. Each battalion company commander
12 reported directly to the brigade commander, who then,
13 in turn, reported to the commander of the Operative
14 Zone, and we know that that was Colonel Blaskic, and he
15 then was accountable to his commanding officer, that
16 is, the commander-in-chief of the Main Staff of the
17 HVO. Isn't that so?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. We can move on to another topic,
20 and that is the distribution of JNA weapons and
21 facilities. Excuse me. Just a question I forgot to
22 ask you.
23 When I spoke about the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski
24 Brigade in Busovaca, I did say who was its commander
25 and so on and so forth, but since Mr. Kordic is our
Page 17018
1 client, I have to ask you: Mr. Kordic was never the
2 commander of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade or any
3 other armed forces in Busovaca, to your knowledge, was
4 he?
5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I would have thought
6 that sort of question should not have been asked in a
7 leading form, but it's a matter for the Court.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What's the answer, please?
9 A. I already said that what paragraph 27 says is
10 accurate, and that is a good example of the
11 organisation of the brigade in Busovaca, and I could
12 list all the brigades in that area, the Travnik, Novi
13 Travnik, Vitez Brigade, and others.
14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] In view of
15 the objection, perhaps I should rephrase my question.
16 Q. Was Mr. Dario Kordic --
17 JUDGE MAY: You can ask, if you want, if you
18 want to ask: "Was Dario Kordic commander of any
19 military formation?" You can do that, yes.
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] That's what I
21 was going to ask, Your Honours.
22 Q. Was Mr. Kordic the commander of any military
23 formation in Central Bosnia or outside?
24 A. I know that Mr. Dario Kordic did not command
25 any armed formation in the area of responsibility of
Page 17019
1 the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia.
2 Q. Thank you. Now let us move on to what I have
3 just announced, and that was the next topic, and that
4 was the distribution, the division of JNA weapons and
5 facilities.
6 When the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 broke out, the question of weapons, naturally for
8 Croats and Muslims, became the question of vital
9 importance; naturally, because one cannot defend one's
10 self without weapons. So there was an agreement
11 reached between the HVO and the army of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina to partake, to divide the weapons
13 from the JNA.
14 A. When I came to the territory of Central
15 Bosnia, quite a number of individuals had weapons they
16 carried but those were personal defence barrels. We
17 knew that in the depots still kept by the JNA, there
18 was the armament of the Territorial Defence, that is,
19 those people there, the municipalities. Not the
20 property of the JNA but the property of the Territorial
21 Defence, that is, population of the area concerned, and
22 that it was kept at Slimena. And as of the first day
23 of my duty there, I focused on Slimena and the barracks
24 in Travnik.
25 Q. To simply clarify for the Court: Slimena is
Page 17020
1 a big barracks, the depot of the JNA, and three or four
2 kilometres away from Travnik?
3 A. Yes, because this facility is in the area
4 inhabited by Croats. So I obtained my information from
5 there and so on, and I could organise the blockade of
6 that depot to prevent these weapons from being taken
7 away.
8 Q. And the understanding was to divide the
9 weapons 50/50 between the Bosnian Croats and Muslims,
10 isn't it? However, some men arrived there,
11 uncontrolled. People simply pounced upon that
12 facility, and the weapons were taken from that JNA
13 barracks without any control whatsoever, in a very
14 chaotic manner, shall I say, if I may put it that way.
15 A. No, not on the first day when one could get
16 killed, when there was fighting. They came in large
17 numbers there when the commander there mined two
18 facilities within that compound and they blew up, and
19 one could see weapons in the meadow. First of all
20 Muslims, but then Croats simply pounced upon those
21 weapons. And since I knew that it was mined, and the
22 mines could be seen, they were visible, with what
23 forces I had, I tried to prevent them from entering
24 that compound until we demined the area. And we
25 managed to do that until about noon the second day, and
Page 17021
1 then the crowd simply pounced upon that area and they
2 took whatever they could lay their hands on.
3 Q. Very well. Subsequently, you paid visits to
4 various places in the area, and you could also assess
5 the number of the weapons. Those are the semiautomatic
6 weapons which the TO came by on that occasion.
7 A. Since these weapons belonged to the
8 Territorial Defence in that area, there were more
9 weapons than for a brigade, that is, over 2.000 barrels
10 of personal weapons and other armament. And in view of
11 a large number of Muslims who had come to take those
12 weapons, and many were -- fell prey to the mines, which
13 shows that they had already taken those weapons, I am
14 sure over 1.000 pieces of weapons came into the hands
15 of the Muslims and about 500 or 600 pieces came -- fell
16 into the hands of Croats.
17 As I am an artilleryman by profession, I just
18 don't know why people had to get some artillery pieces,
19 to have some artillery, so that the majority of the
20 theodolites, compasses, and various other computing
21 devices were taken by my men.
22 Q. And my last question related to this facility
23 at Slimena: This was a good school for you, if I might
24 put it that way. And you said you took steps in the
25 case of other barracks, meaning Kaonik and Travnik,
Page 17022
1 that is, the barracks in Travnik, to avoid this and to
2 do it in a much better organised and in a much safer
3 way.
4 A. There was an understanding reached before
5 that to split it 50/50, and so I insisted with all the
6 commanders, that is, both Croats and Muslims, then when
7 other facilities were taken and when the army was
8 evacuated from there, that the understanding needed to
9 be complied with, that is, it had to be done in an
10 organised manner and that the responsible persons
11 should organise it in order to avoid the repetition of
12 Slimena.
13 Q. Thank you. Talking about the distribution of
14 weapons, and we cannot avoid also the case of the
15 weapons in Bratstvo Factory, Travnik. That was also
16 split between the Armija and the HVO. You said that
17 one third went to the Territorial Defence or, rather,
18 the ABiH in Visoko, one third to the HVO in
19 Herzegovina, and one third was then distributed in your
20 area between the HVO and the army of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. On that occasion you say, and you were an
24 eyewitness and the man who was responsible for the
25 distribution of weapons, that the Muslim side got not
Page 17023
1 less than 100 mortars, howitzer, nine of 122
2 millimetres and two of 152 millimetres, the howitzers
3 called usually Norahs?
4 A. Yes. That was done in May 1992.
5 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to our next topic,
6 and that is the fall of Jajce, very briefly.
7 Paragraphs 30 and 31.
8 In these paragraphs, you describe in
9 considerable detail that your area of responsibility
10 around Jajce was over 100 kilometres long. You also
11 say that the HVO had considerable forces to defend that
12 front. Do you agree with me that according to what
13 General Petkovic said, as many as 60 per cent of all
14 the armed forces of the HVO in Bosnia and Central
15 Bosnia were engaged there on that front line?
16 A. The defence of the Jajce pocket was a problem
17 unto itself. From the Lasva Valley, there was a very
18 narrow and precarious corridor across Vlasic or,
19 rather, across the Ranta [phoen] Mountain by forest
20 paths to the Jajce pocket. In the summer of 1992, the
21 proper -- the fiercest fighting took place in the Jajce
22 pocket, because that pocket was separated between the
23 32nd Krajina Corps of the Republika Srpska to the depth
24 of some 70 kilometres, and those two corps in the area
25 of Turbe had visual contact at their front lines and
Page 17024
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Page 17025
1 there was then, in depth, a 70-kilometre area which
2 they could not control. Hence, the major effort of the
3 army of the Republika Srpska to liquidate that Jajce
4 pocket.
5 Q. We do not really have to go into all the
6 details about this, but just one more question related
7 to this matter.
8 You heard that some Muslims asserted that
9 there were no HVO soldiers along the front lines near
10 Jajce and that the HVO had simply made a pact with
11 Bosnian Serbs to surrender Jajce to them. Those were
12 the accusations against the HVO. Had you heard about
13 those?
14 A. The fall of Jajce distressed me no end,
15 because I had personally invested very much in the
16 defence of Jajce. Moreover, the army of the Republika
17 Srpska gained major operative and strategic
18 possibilities there, and I know that Travnik or,
19 rather, the Lasva Valley became much more vulnerable
20 now than before.
21 But a day after the fall of Jajce, the
22 propaganda -- the Muslim propaganda, rather, the
23 propaganda from Sarajevo said that the HVO had betrayed
24 Jajce. In the Lasva Valley, that caused indignation
25 among people, because how can you betray yourself? How
Page 17026
1 can you betray 20.000 men who now began to arrive in
2 the Lasva Valley? And this whole episode was the
3 result of a purposeful belittlement or even prevention
4 of the HVO.
5 Q. Thank you. We can move on to the next topic,
6 and that is the refugees or the persecution.
7 You said a while ago, and I'm moving on to
8 paragraph 32, that the result of the forceful attacks
9 of the army of the Republika Srpska against Muslims and
10 Croats, over 1.000 Muslim refugees flooded the area of
11 the Central Bosnia, including these lands which were
12 populated primarily by Croats. Those people had to go
13 through Croat lines. That is, you enabled all those
14 refugees, Muslims and Croats, to go through the lines
15 that you held against the Serbs and to go across them
16 into the area of Central Bosnia, didn't you?
17 A. The defence front in Travnik was some 70/30.
18 That was the correlation of forces, the HVO and the
19 territorial army, the army of B and H. Three roads
20 which the refugees could use to arrive from the
21 Republika Srpska or, rather, in places where they were
22 delivered by the army of Republika Srpska because they
23 could not come alone, the BSA simply delivered them
24 there, so these three roads were held by the HVO. I'm
25 talking about more than 100.000 people on those two
Page 17027
1 roads where, from the point where people would enter,
2 we had to provide some means of transportation. There
3 was a shortage of oil, of vehicles, and so on and so
4 forth, but we had somehow to take them down; down to
5 the Lasva Valley, that is. Those were not refugees. I
6 mean all these people were under stress. These people
7 were frustrated. It defies a description of what it
8 looks like when the army of Republika Srpska delivers
9 12, 15, 20 thousand people at a spot and then those
10 people descend -- climb down Vlasic towards the Lasva
11 Valley.
12 Q. Let us then move on to paragraph 33. To
13 avoid the objection of the opposite side that I'm
14 leading the witness, I shall try to phrase it as
15 follows:
16 General Filipovic, in Central Bosnia, from
17 what you know, did the HVO pursue an official or
18 unofficial policy of persecution of Muslims by the HVO?
19 A. I have already said about the reception of
20 refugees delivered by the army of Republika Srpska.
21 They were put up in our area, in our villages, in our
22 sacred objects, in the Jesuit secondary school which is
23 held sacred by the Croats, yet hundreds of Muslims were
24 put up there.
25 Had it been the policy, I could have agreed
Page 17028
1 easily with it, because I would have protested always
2 for refugees to be accommodated in the Jesuit secondary
3 school in Travnik. But had there been such a policy,
4 then all these events wouldn't have taken place,
5 because I could always mine the roads that the refugees
6 were using and refuse to help them find accommodation
7 or whatever.
8 So, in a nutshell, there was no such policy
9 in military, religious, or any other sense was there,
10 in the sense of inequitable treatment or refusal to
11 sympathise with the suffering of the refugees, of
12 Muslim refugees; not only Muslims, because Croats also
13 arrived from Krajina. Our policy was to help people,
14 and that help then came as a [indiscernible] to us.
15 Q. In this paragraph 33, you say explicitly what
16 would have been your reaction, your attitude, had there
17 been such a policy?
18 A. Fortunately, one cannot foresee the future.
19 Well, one can predict certain things but cannot foresee
20 what will happen. But I'm referring to that time. Had
21 anyone, by accident or purposefully, pursued a
22 different kind of policy than the policy of humane
23 relations, then I would have opposed it. There is no
24 doubt about that.
25 Q. Apart from the pressure of refugees on that
Page 17029
1 area, you made a very interesting observation, a
2 military kind of observation about what we are talking
3 about, and that is the banishment -- the persecution of
4 Muslims by the HVO had there been such a policy, and
5 we've agreed that there wasn't, that it would have been
6 tantamount to a military suicide and that it was your
7 great military experience, apart from the human
8 properties that you have, that your military experience
9 would have made you -- would have forced you to refuse
10 to pursue such a policy to hurt somebody who was much
11 stronger, much more powerful?
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, of course we're
13 encouraging you to go quickly, and you are, no doubt,
14 trying to summarise the evidence. It's better if you
15 don't give it and let the witness give it, but I think
16 we probably got the point.
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] That isn't
18 what I tried to do. I wasn't really trying to put any
19 words in his mouth or say anything that the General had
20 not carefully analysed before he put his signature to
21 it. I'm not saying anything that the General did not
22 say. These are his words.
23 Q. Very well, General. Would you care to
24 answer, but only briefly, and then we can move on.
25 A. As a professional, but I've already said
Page 17030
1 something about it, the correlation of forces in the
2 Lasva Valley changed as of June and especially July
3 '92, and any policy that would lead to intensifying
4 the conflict would be tantamount to madness, and I
5 really wasn't mad to do any such thing. I'm referring
6 to the area of the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia,
7 and there there was no policy of persecution of
8 Muslims, and especially there was nothing organised,
9 that is, incidents, mishaps. There were, yes, daily,
10 and we know the causes, but there was no intent behind
11 that.
12 Q. When we tendered this summary into evidence,
13 I thought of not asking you anything about the 7th
14 Muslim Brigade, since this is our next topic, but we
15 were not given the number for this piece of evidence so
16 we shall move on to paragraph 34.
17 You say that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
18 and the HVO were organised along similar lines, more or
19 less. The HVO had operative zones and the army of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina had corps?
21 A. Yes, because both peoples were faced with the
22 same problems, so that the ways and means of devising
23 solutions were the same. And the organisation of
24 brigades and the corps or, rather, operative zones were
25 similar or sometimes even identical, and in any event
Page 17031
1 it was always headed and run by people who had gone
2 through the same school, who had gone through the JNA.
3 But the 7th Muslim, and it was rather
4 characteristic of the kind of organisation that existed
5 in Central Bosnia, its organisation, I believe, began
6 sometime in the summer of 1992, and I think it was
7 completed sometime in the autumn or towards the end of
8 1992. It was an anomaly, because it was quite
9 different from the manner in which things were
10 organised elsewhere in Central Bosnia, and a hitherto
11 manner -- way of life of people in that area was
12 radically -- underwent a radical change when the 7th
13 Muslim Brigade was formed. The emblems of the combat
14 corps, such as Allah-u-ekber and the like, did not
15 exist in that area before that. The insistence of the
16 members of those forces that women's faces had to be
17 covered and certain other things fundamentally --
18 radically changing the way of life in that area single
19 out this brigade as a different one, as something that
20 was radically different from all the rest that existed,
21 from the military organisation or the way of life in
22 that area. Now, I think that the organisation of the
23 7th Muslim Brigade, subsequently Mudzahid, caused a
24 further -- disrupted the balance, tipped the scale to
25 one side in that area.
Page 17032
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Page 17033
1 Q. We can agree, can't we, that the 3rd Muslim
2 Brigade and this specially-organised detachment of the
3 Mudzahid consisted of fundamentalistically-minded
4 persons?
5 A. It could not be joined -- or at least it was
6 my impression, the impression that I gained at the time
7 and I still think so, that it could not be joined by
8 those who held some different views regarding the
9 objectives of the struggle in that area. You know, I
10 am fighting for Bosnia-Herzegovina. I fight for my
11 people. I fight so that my daughters can use their
12 make-up or that my son can use a computer and so on and
13 so forth. And then forces come which refute all that
14 and do so with rifles in their hands. That is why I
15 insist on it, that it meant a disruption in that area
16 regarding the way of life, regarding the frame of mind,
17 the living conditions, and everything else.
18 Q. And who organised the 7th Muslim Brigade and
19 the Mudzahid, who organised them, who controlled them,
20 who was their superior commander, or where was their
21 superior command?
22 A. Officially it was the 3rd Corps, with
23 headquarters in Zenica. But I do know that even in
24 1995, the commander of the joint staff, when I sent
25 people from both components to tour some areas in Gluha
Page 17034
1 Bukovica or Han Bila, that even then I could not find
2 men who would do that from both components, I mean,
3 Muslim and Croat, because that formation was always
4 treated differently from any other formation of the
5 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in that area.
6 I really do not go further into it, but I
7 repeat: Officially it was subordinated to the
8 3rd Corps.
9 Q. Paragraph 35, very briefly, because the Court
10 has heard a great deal about how members of the
11 7th Muslim Brigade committed the massacre in Busovaca
12 on the 26th of January, 1993, and that was the first
13 massacre of the civilian population in Central Bosnia,
14 but you also know that the 7th Muslim Brigade played an
15 important role during the Travnik offensive, and we
16 shall come back to it again, in June 1993, and you took
17 direct part in it, then in the Kakanj offensive, also
18 launched in June 1993, then in Fojnica in July 1993,
19 and then in Bugojno in July 1993, and finally, Vares in
20 early November 1993.
21 A. All these operations conducted by the Muslim
22 side could not be launched without the Muslim brigade,
23 be it in whole or in part. From information, from
24 conversations with people and so on, I think also that
25 the crimes against Croats in that area, not Croats,
Page 17035
1 against people, were committed by members of that
2 brigade.
3 Q. And my last question related to this
4 brigade: Amongst the civilian population or even the
5 soldiers of the HVO, because of this lack of respect
6 for human life and so on and so forth, this Muslim
7 brigade had an awesome reputation. I mean, people were
8 simply afraid of it.
9 A. I've already said that it changed the image
10 or the way of life that came through that brigade. I
11 wouldn't say that we were afraid of it in the
12 beginning. Naturally, in the beginning, it was rather
13 successful in creating that image of itself which it
14 was trying to project through combat and other
15 activities, but as the time went by, in 1993, when we
16 were all crowded in the enclave or pressed in, and when
17 members of this and other special units were conducting
18 the attacks, each was a combat formation as any other,
19 as far as we were concerned, it inflicted more losses.
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. I was
21 about to suggest that, Your Honours. Yes, it would be
22 quite convenient.
23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.
24 Major General Filipovic, would you be back,
25 please, at half past two to continue your evidence. I
Page 17036
1 must warn you, as I warn all witnesses, not to speak to
2 anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that
3 does include members of the Defence.
4 Half past two.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
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Page 17037
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
4 Your Honours. With your permission, Your Honours, I
5 have made some progress with respect to the plan that
6 we have started out with, and I think we can cut things
7 short. I believe that the Prosecution had some time to
8 review the summary, and perhaps we can now tender it
9 into evidence, in which case, we would not have to go
10 paragraph by paragraph.
11 MR. NICE: I'm not in a position to make that
12 concession at this stage. I've only had time to review
13 some of the statement, not all of it.
14 JUDGE MAY: Take it, Mr. Naumovski, as
15 quickly as you can, but, of course, if there are any
16 matters which you particularly want to draw our
17 attention to or to particularly bring out in evidence,
18 you may, of course, do so.
19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Your Honours.
21 Q. General, we can continue where we left off
22 before lunch, and we stopped off where we said -- this
23 is paragraph 37, where the political institutions
24 ceased to function. This is both 37 and 38. Even
25 though you said you were not a member of the HDZ, you
Page 17038
1 know that this main political party of Croats ceased to
2 exist during the summer.
3 A. I do not know much about this, but I know
4 that the HDZ and Demo-Christians and the Party of Right
5 were not active at the time, and I also heard that
6 officially the position was taken that members of the
7 HVO could not participate actively in political
8 parties. So I know that as of June 1992, these parties
9 were not active.
10 Q. We also mentioned today about the activities
11 of the civilian authorities, and let's break it down
12 into two parts. We agree that in 1992 there were
13 difficulties, and due to these difficulties, the normal
14 life continued to get organised at the municipal level
15 and, as you said, even at the level of individual
16 villages.
17 A. Yes. There were political problems which
18 were continuous, and somebody still had to carry out
19 these activities. But I must say that the majority of
20 the civilian activities just died down.
21 For instance, the educational system
22 stopped. Children couldn't be let to go to school if
23 you expected shelling every day. Also, the health care
24 was reduced to the basements of health centres. But in
25 short, some -- life needed to go on, and there were
Page 17039
1 bodies that were involved, and what really became very
2 important was the humanitarian organisations in the
3 area, in the field.
4 Q. These problems in the organisation of
5 civilian life emerged, especially in 1993, after the
6 conflict of April 1993, because everybody was
7 mobilised. Everybody was put in the line of defence,
8 if I can put it that way.
9 A. When we were reduced to an enclave, very few
10 civilian activities were still carried on. So it was
11 characteristic that the entire life was organised in a
12 military way or through the military.
13 Q. Very well, let's move on to paragraph 38.
14 You had information which you received in the course of
15 this case that the British army military intelligence
16 report seemed to say that there were some connections
17 with the HVO and HDZ. In other words, that there was
18 some kind of a political commissar or zampolit, as in
19 the Soviet Union.
20 You would be the right person to ask this
21 question: Were there any political commissars in the
22 HVO, in the sense that this word was used in the former
23 Soviet Union?
24 A. I can state that there was no place and there
25 was no such practice on the part of political officers
Page 17040
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Page 17041
1 in the military. There were only officers which were
2 liaisons with the public sector for raising the morale,
3 and these were people who liaise between the military
4 and the civilians.
5 Q. In other words, it is a post that is to be
6 found in any other army, but was there any
7 representative of the HDZ who worked on either combat
8 plans, combat operations, the use of troops, or
9 something like that?
10 A. At no level of command, including platoon,
11 company, battalion, Operative Zone, or brigade was
12 there such a post, such a function.
13 Q. Let us repeat one more time. According to
14 the decree on the armed forces adopted by the
15 Bosnians --
16 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation
17 continues] ... to repeat something which we know
18 already.
19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Your Honours.
21 Q. We're moving on to paragraph 39, which is the
22 HVO defence in the Lasva Valley. Was the HVO prepared
23 for the conflict with the TO and the ABiH in 1992,
24 General?
25 A. I can talk about the Central Bosnia Operative
Page 17042
1 Zone and the Travnik Brigade, which was really the
2 focus of my activity at the time.
3 We had our hands full with the defence
4 against the Army of Republika Srpska, and the problems
5 where the enclave -- where the population was mixed,
6 and the Muslim offensive showed that the HVO was
7 unprepared for the military tasks which it had to deal
8 with, and the incidents show that we could be
9 attacked.
10 And if we compare our soldiers to those of
11 the army of the Republika Srpska, and we depended on --
12 we had to provide the corridor between the Republic of
13 Croatia and the enclaves, but we were not preparing,
14 and we could not count -- we could not foresee what the
15 whole situation would turn out to be, because we had
16 formed a commission which was supposed to work on
17 separation of forces and other issues which were the
18 burning ones at the time.
19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, what were
20 some of the main objectives which the ABiH had in
21 Vitez?
22 A. I can speak to the entire Lasva Valley. ABiH
23 had several key objectives, which was to encircle --
24 that is, to consolidate the area which it controlled,
25 and the Lasva Valley was an obstacle to its full
Page 17043
1 control of the territory to which it aspired. And then
2 there were two very significant factories. One was
3 Bratstvo, which was producing all ammunition up to
4 150 millimetre, and the second was the explosives
5 factory in Vitez.
6 In October 1992, they managed to cut us off
7 from the Bratstvo Factory, and throughout 1993, they
8 endeavoured to take control of the explosives factory
9 in Vitez. And in the course of 1993, it became
10 transparent, what the real objectives of the ABiH were,
11 and that was to cut through the Lasva pocket once,
12 through Ahmici, Santici, Vranjska, which is about eight
13 to nine hundred metres in a straight line. And in
14 Central Bosnia, also one of the objectives was the
15 headquarters of the Operative Zone, which would mean to
16 cut off the head and the rest of the body would have
17 died.
18 In Vitez, we had about 150 to 200 fighting
19 men per shift involved in the defence. And from June
20 1993, anyone who could carry a weapon was engaged, and
21 so the number of casualties also rose proportionately.
22 There were about 800 Croat casualties for that small
23 area, and it's a very substantial percentage, and that
24 is because of the forces that it had in the area. It
25 also had it in Travnik, Novi Travnik, and Busovaca, but
Page 17044
1 it was very characteristic for this particular area.
2 Q. And just to wrap up this line of questions,
3 in addition to this enormous number, that is, the
4 disproportionate number, there were also about 2.000
5 wounded in the area?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We're moving on to paragraphs 40 and 41, the
8 HVO military police.
9 With respect to the military police, there
10 was a chain of command in the Central Bosnia Operative
11 Zone, in the operative sense of the word. The
12 operative commander in the Operative Zone was the
13 commander of the Operative Zone; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So this is how the 4th Battalion of the
16 Military Police, which was stationed in Vitez, was also
17 used?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But the military police, and we know this
20 from other armies, in the organisational sense, in a
21 sense of -- in an administrative sense, in a sense of
22 appointment of officers, it was also linked to the
23 military department?
24 A. Yes. In respect of -- that is, the context
25 of the military police within the military organisation
Page 17045
1 overall is that it has its own duties, which was to
2 ensure that all the recruits are brought into the
3 units, into the front line, and to ensure the full
4 strength of the armed forces, which is why -- which is
5 one of the reasons why the military police is separated
6 out from the main body of the military organisation.
7 Q. I think that there will be more questions on
8 this in the cross-examination, but let me ask you just
9 one more question in that regard.
10 During your time in the command positions in
11 the HVO, did Mr. Blaskic ever have any responsible
12 towards the military -- that is, did Mr. Kordic have
13 any responsibility with respect to military police?
14 A. I said that Mr. Kordic never had command over
15 any military unit in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone,
16 including the military police.
17 Q. Thank you. Let's move on quickly. These are
18 paragraphs 42 through 48, the fighting in 1992 and
19 1993.
20 Several questions relating to the October
21 1992 conflict in Novi Travnik, when there was -- when
22 we had several days of fighting. You spoke about it,
23 but what was the strategic objective of the TO, that
24 is, ABiH, in October 1992?
25 A. This conflict did not only occur in Novi
Page 17046
1 Travnik, it was part of the conflict, and in that
2 context the commander of the Novi Travnik Brigade,
3 Ivica Stojak, was killed.
4 During that period, I could not come to
5 Travnik. This was part of a larger-scale operation,
6 and I imagine that it was the conquest of territory.
7 But we lost ability to control about 70 per cent of the
8 territory in Travnik, including the Travnik factory
9 which employed, if I remember correctly, over 4.000
10 people.
11 This conflict in October also led to the fall
12 of Jajce, and this was mentioned before. But people
13 who could cross over the mountains in Jeep-type
14 vehicles knew that they would be unable to use those
15 mountain roads in the next six months, and the conflict
16 between the Croats and Muslims shook the confidence of
17 the defenders of Jajce, and the enclave of Jajce, which
18 was key to the defence of the Lasva River Valley
19 against the Bosnian Serb army, was lost.
20 Q. You mentioned the Bratstvo Factory in
21 Travnik, and you said that the HVO completely lost
22 control over this factory in October?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me, who issued combat orders in
25 Travnik during the conflict between the HVO and TO,
Page 17047
1 that is, ABiH?
2 A. The system of command and control was such
3 that the Novi Travnik Brigade, that is, the people from
4 Novi Travnik -- I was there the whole time and the
5 Central Bosnia Operative Zone commander. As I said,
6 there were conflicts in several areas, and it was the
7 chief of -- the area commander, then his deputy, which
8 was myself, and ...
9 Q. The Trial Chamber knows that Mr. Kordic --
10 where Mr. Kordic was during this conflict. Did
11 Mr. Kordic have any military command duties during this
12 conflict?
13 A. Mr. Kordic would always come where the
14 situation was critical. I know that, for instance,
15 when it was critical in Jajce, he would come to Jajce,
16 and then Vitez, Travnik also. But as far as the
17 command-and-control system are concerned within the
18 HVO, he was not involved at all.
19 Q. I understand that. You speak generally
20 within the system of command and control. But let's
21 talk specifically. You were in Novi Travnik. You were
22 overseeing all the operations. Did you ever see
23 Mr. Kordic issue any order during those seven or
24 however many days the conflict in October 1992 lasted?
25 A. I will repeat for the fifth time, I never
Page 17048
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Page 17049
1 heard of it, I never saw it. No, it never happened.
2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
4 Mr. Naumovski, I would like to ask -- excuse me. It is
5 there where there were serious problems, but was he
6 abreast of events? He didn't give orders -- did you,
7 General Filipovic, know if Mr. Kordic was receiving
8 instruction from superior political and military
9 structures in cases where there were serious problems?
10 Did you know whether he received any instructions
11 during those difficult moments?
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You understood the question?
14 A. I don't know whether he received
15 instructions. I know what the activities in the field
16 were. You do not need instructions if you're
17 attacked. You have to defend yourself inasmuch as you
18 can.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] General, you
20 say that Mr. Kordic was still there, but was he
21 communicating with the military hierarchy at the time?
22 Do you know? Did you have and did he communicate with
23 the military hierarchy? Do you know anything about
24 that?
25 A. Mr. Kordic was there. Because I was there, I
Page 17050
1 communicated with him. He was there with General
2 Blaskic. He was there with other persons. But again,
3 I repeat, at any, at any moment, he was free to get
4 involved in any problem which arose, but it was the
5 military structure which issued orders. If you want a
6 specific example, Mr. Kordic never could or did give
7 any orders to me or any of my subordinates.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Can you tell
9 us, General, what type of problems Mr. Kordic was
10 dealing with?
11 A. Mr. Kordic contacted people in the sense that
12 he provided political support. If there was a crisis
13 and it affected the entire population, their leadership
14 has to be there for them. And people voted for him.
15 And through his activities he showed leadership, and
16 this is -- and I will repeat, this is why he was in
17 Jajce in the summer of 1992. I think that it was in
18 August or when Jajce fell and then part of Travnik area
19 fell, and both HVO and the ABiH lost ground, then
20 Mr. Kordic intervened, and he sent in earthmovers to
21 dig trenches and to re-establish lines of defence, and
22 that was also the case in Travnik in August 1992, which
23 is not different from his overall activity throughout
24 the war.
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
Page 17051
1 Your Honours.
2 Q. General Filipovic, we were going to come to
3 that later, but since you mentioned Jajce and the
4 support of Mr. Kordic in efforts to defend Jajce --
5 this is paragraph 53. What was the role of Mr. Kordic
6 specifically? Since we touched on this, can you tell
7 us: In what ways did he mobilise people?
8 A. In those situations when one loses one's
9 life, when one loses one's freedom or part of a body,
10 there are not always people who should act as they
11 should. Doctors are leaving the area even though their
12 fundamental mission is to stay there where there is
13 suffering. Teachers should teach, at least in places
14 outside of the range of shells and so on and so forth.
15 But Mr. Kordic -- and I profoundly believe that -- the
16 man who was responsible to the people, he really
17 devoted himself to see that his people live better, to
18 live the life that people chooses, and as far as I
19 know, he never left the most critical areas, the most
20 critical points.
21 In that regard, Mr. Kordic's position in
22 overall developments in the Lasva Valley was such, and
23 usually where one could get killed at any given
24 moment.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us move on. That
Page 17052
1 is paragraph 44. But those were some incidents, and
2 the Court has already heard something about that, but
3 incidents that happened around Easter in 1993 in
4 Travnik, when Croats hoisted some of their flags in
5 order to mark Easter. What happened to those flags?
6 A. In March and April 1993, I had to keep up
7 with a whole number of incidents in the area of
8 responsibility of the Travnik Brigade. Then I was -- I
9 also had the murder of Zvonko Gaso's wife in the
10 doorway of their apartment, then Medancic's murder in
11 his flat, the eviction of the family Rimac from their
12 flat and so on and so forth. But the most
13 characteristic, the most glaringly obvious attack was
14 the removal of the flags, of our flags, of my flags
15 along the streets and the singing of songs,
16 Allah-u-ekber or Tekbir or something, right up to our
17 office.
18 And when I began to take them down from those
19 buildings, then we opened fire to drive them away.
20 This was the picture of the disrupted balance,
21 equilibrium of normal life, and the jeopardy to the
22 overall situation in which I found a person that one
23 could negotiate, that we could talk things, and he did
24 what he could.
25 I might also mention that the incidents and
Page 17053
1 the things that happened were not only -- that the
2 blame for them should not only be laid down at the door
3 of Muslims but at Croats as well.
4 Q. You mentioned whom? Who was the head of the
5 HDZ in Travnik? You mentioned a Croat name. Who was
6 that?
7 A. I would not say he was the front man, but he
8 was from the HDZ.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not
10 get the name, I'm sorry.
11 A. He was an officer in the command of the
12 Travnik Brigade. That is, during the time when Stojak
13 was killed, he was wounded, but that happened in
14 October 1992, and in March or early April -- I don't
15 know exactly -- his wife was killed on the threshold of
16 their apartment.
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Just to make it clear for the transcript, I
19 gave the name "Gaso." I don't see that.
20 Let us move on. Paragraph 45. To follow up
21 on your previous thought, there were also incidents in
22 March, then in April, and so on and so forth.
23 General, did -- in 1993, was Mate Boban in
24 Travnik? Did he ever visit Travnik that year?
25 A. No. I'm sure that he never was in Travnik,
Page 17054
1 but from what I know, in the Central Bosnia Operative
2 Zone, he visited it only once and that was in September
3 or October 1992, and that was for a few hours only.
4 Q. You mean that was the only time that he came
5 there in 1992?
6 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nodded.
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I did not hear an answer. Did you say
9 "yes"?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let's move on. Paragraph 46, your initial
12 information about the events in Ahmici received from
13 Colonel Bob Stewart when he visited you in Travnik and
14 when you spoke about the problems that you, the Croats,
15 faced in the town of Travnik, is that so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You mean, did he tell you anything,
18 anything? Did he give any details about that or did he
19 simply inform you that a crime happened?
20 A. He often came to see me and Alagic. It went
21 all the time. And I remember one occasion when I
22 complained about what the Muslims were doing or the
23 army of BH, what they were doing against the HVO, he
24 said, "And what do you do? What do you, the Croats,
25 do? What do we do?" Then he mentioned Ahmici, that
Page 17055
1 there were very many fatalities there, and it was the
2 first time that I heard about the crime in Ahmici.
3 Later on, in that commission and even before
4 that, neither a Delic's, nor a Vehbija Karic's, nor a
5 Siber's, nor at -- What was the gentleman's name? --
6 rather, General -- What's his name? -- Dzemal Merdan or
7 any other -- I did not hear about that crime within a
8 series of such incidents, of such crimes. This did not
9 seem to be singled out as something special. It was
10 only until 1994, 1995 when this began to grow into
11 something that's seen -- that looked to me like an
12 orchestrated, like a fabricated picture of anything,
13 questioning everything, or at least the purest defence
14 of the HVO since the world began, because there is
15 nothing else for ten months, locked out from everybody,
16 separated from any help, thousands of victims are the
17 targets of that defence are brought into question.
18 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to be helped by
19 this. If you would --
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MAY: If you want, Mr. Naumovski, to
23 ask anything more about Ahmici, you can. Otherwise,
24 let's move on to a different subject.
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very briefly,
Page 17056
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Page 17057
1 Your Honours.
2 Q. I was about to ask -- we're still at
3 paragraph 46 -- as a trained military, as a
4 professional military, as a responsible military, I
5 think to your mind, every civilian casualty is one too
6 many. That is the question. You don't dispute that,
7 do you?
8 A. I condemn crime as such. I condemn crimes
9 against people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not only my
10 people but against people, and I hope that the
11 perpetrators of the crimes will be called to account
12 and that they will be punished. I believe that this
13 august Court is helping to bring the life in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina back to normal and to avoid any
15 further crimes.
16 Q. Thank you. And in a nutshell, you heard that
17 the HVO conducted an investigation about the event in
18 Ahmici, but did you personally play any part in the
19 investigation? Did you take part in the investigation,
20 and so on and so forth?
21 A. Well, my concern in Travnik had to cover so
22 many things that I could not make a contribution
23 anywhere else. I heard and I know that investigation
24 was conducted. I did not have any part to play in
25 that, but I can have an idea about this in view of
Page 17058
1 everything that was happening in that area during the
2 period that we are talking about.
3 Q. There will be more questions about that, and
4 you will have another opportunity to talk about that,
5 but we have now move on to the next paragraph, which is
6 47.
7 You're a career soldier, and while you worked
8 in the Operative Zone before and after the Travnik
9 Brigade, before and after you were quite familiar with
10 the military situation in Central Bosnia or, rather, in
11 the Lasva Valley. To your knowledge, on the 16th of
12 April, 1993, fighting broke out in several places, not
13 only in one small restricted area.
14 A. When the 16th of April became the "D-Day," if
15 I may call it that, I toured cemeteries and could
16 see -- and I'm referring to the HVO young men -- I
17 could see how many young men who were killed on that
18 day were buried in the cemeteries in the Lasva Valley.
19 So that what I know about that, my knowledge about
20 that, is the result of that tour.
21 Well -- but, anyway, the crime happened. One
22 cannot deny that. And I repeat once again, I condemn
23 the crime, and I hope that those responsible for it
24 will be called to justice.
25 Q. And the paragraph 48. The attacks of the
Page 17059
1 ABiH in Krizancevo Selo in 1992 and early 1994 -- no, I
2 think I was wrong. I'm referring to December 1993,
3 Krizancevo Selo, and January 1994 in Buhine Kuce, when
4 many civilians and captured soldiers were killed. Do
5 you know something about that? Some of your former
6 soldiers lost their lives there, in Buhine Kuce in
7 particular.
8 A. I already spoke how the enclave was shrinking
9 and about its narrowest part which were under the
10 severest attacks of the BH army, and that is Ahmici,
11 Santici, Buhine Kuce, and Krizancevo Selo.
12 We were told that the Christmas of 1993 would
13 be bloody and so it was. In Krizancevo Selo, we lost
14 almost 100 men, and then in Buhine Kuce about 20. It
15 is true that that was in combat, but that was the
16 product of crimes against civilians and captured
17 soldiers, because captured soldiers were also victims;
18 that is, a crime was committed against them.
19 Q. I apologise. I already mentioned Dusina as a
20 place where a crime happened. But in the area that you
21 know best, and that is the municipality of Travnik,
22 there were crimes, and around the Travnik municipality,
23 there were crimes in Miletici, in Buhine, in the
24 village of Cukle, and that was June 1993. You have
25 relatives in Miletici, so you would know about that?
Page 17060
1 A. I had. I'm talking about the attacks, ethnic
2 cleansing crimes, after a military operation.
3 That whole area or the fighting for the area,
4 the struggle for survival and the fighting to get hold
5 of a passage -- of a corridor, an enclave, they
6 produced victims and produced crimes on both sides,
7 because there were numerous incidents when one did not
8 deal with them as crimes. But a mass crime is a mass
9 crime. Whether 20 or 30 or 70 human lives, then that
10 is a crime. There is no other word for it. I am
11 therefore trying to portray the events or what we call
12 the defence of the Lasva Valley.
13 Q. General, with many officers who are your
14 opponents in the war, that is, amongst the Muslim
15 ranks, when you were in the joint army, in the federal
16 army, and you worked with General Merdan and others,
17 did you ever hear from any one of them that the
18 perpetrators of crimes against the Croats in the
19 villages you mentioned had been punished?
20 A. They were not punished. They were not even
21 brought to trial. They were not even prosecuted. So
22 they could not be punished, because there were no
23 proceedings conducted against them.
24 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to the next
25 topic. The Court knows about it as the Convoy of Joy.
Page 17061
1 You know about it as the Tuzla Convoy, and that is
2 paragraph 49.
3 Before we address that, however, will you
4 tell the Court in two sentences, at that time, a couple
5 of days before that convoy, four or so very well
6 planned and organised offensives of the BH army against
7 the HVO began throughout that area of the Travnik and
8 Novi Travnik municipalities; is that so?
9 A. Well, on the 9th and 10th, I conducted
10 negotiations with Siber or, rather, Delic in Kiseljak,
11 together with Petkovic, and the evening of the 10th,
12 UNPROFOR took us to Vitez. Then I sensed an atmosphere
13 of panic, of fear, of disarray in Vitez. That is, I
14 learned that eight children had been killed that day
15 next to Crnogorka -- that was a building there, we
16 called it that -- and very many other casualties. And
17 no sooner did we finish that sort of a meeting,
18 Petkovic -- then Petkovic went to the headquarters and
19 I went to the Travnik Brigade, because Travnik or,
20 rather, the Travnik Brigade had suffered most from the
21 previous offensive; disarray, panic, nerves. Those
22 were not humans any longer. It was all nerves and
23 emotions. I immediately set about organising the
24 defence, but it was not easy at all, because people who
25 had fled their homes, they looked up at the hills, at
Page 17062
1 their homes burning. They knew who had perished, who
2 was no longer there, who was not down, who had not come
3 down.
4 That day or the next day, the Tuzla Convoy
5 arrived amidst that -- into that state of affairs
6 between Travnik and Novi Travnik, that is, on that
7 road. It landed in the middle of that situation, and I
8 know that it was impossible to control. I'm referring
9 to those men, to refugees who a few days before that
10 had lost everything they had and arrived there having
11 nothing.
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] All right,
13 thank you.
14 Your Honours, I forgot to say, when I began
15 to examine Mr. Filipovic, that we had no exhibits to
16 tender. But we do have a videotape, so could we show
17 it today? It's very short. It's a BBC clip, and it's
18 about the convoy. Could we show it now?
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [In English] An exhibit number, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape will be marked
24 D204/1.
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
Page 17063
1 Q. General, you had just begun describing the
2 situation, the wartime situation in that area. What
3 you saw now, does it properly reflect your
4 interpretation of the circumstances under which these
5 things -- these incidents around the convoy happened?
6 A. Here I see the role of several soldiers
7 isolating somebody. I don't know who or in what
8 capacity. I also see a priest who is presumably trying
9 to calm people down, and he comes to a woman who bars
10 his passage. That is inconceivable in that part of the
11 world, to resist a priest, and it merely confirms what
12 relations were in the Lasva Valley during those days
13 since the loss of Travnik, that is, between the loss of
14 Travnik and the fear that the whole area would be lost.
15 Q. General, it is claimed that this convoy was
16 stopped in a planned manner, that it was stopped
17 deliberately, that is, that there was an organised
18 attack and that it was all premeditated. You were
19 there. You were familiar with the conditions under
20 which all this happened. Is that statement -- is that
21 claim accurate?
22 A. There was no plan to defend it, plan. There
23 was a plan, but the situation to establish a front
24 line, not to lose any more territory, any more ground,
25 not to lose houses. No, there was no plan to attack
Page 17064
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Page 17065
1 the convoy. I'm describing the situation when one is
2 losing ground, losing thousands of houses, when people
3 are getting killed. And when the HVO or the Croats
4 there are being corralled in a very small area, and to
5 plan an attack on a convoy, no, I think it is simply --
6 it is out of the question.
7 Q. You had to deal with this convoy at the time
8 when this happened and much later. Could you tell us
9 if you have ever heard, through the cooperation with
10 all the HVO officers, could any HVO officer run these
11 events? Could anyone really keep control over these
12 events, or any HVO high-ranking representative, could
13 anyone keep it under control and control these things,
14 manipulate those things?
15 A. From Tomislavgrad to Kiseljak, where I was
16 supposed to go there for negotiations, and I know that
17 its passage was postponed for days and I know perhaps
18 even weeks on end because it was to enter a
19 highly-hazardous area, yet it was decided that it was
20 to go through, knowing in advance that it couldn't --
21 you know, a Muslim convoy, a Muslim convoy, one
22 could -- which was taking weapons and armaments, or at
23 least supposedly taking that, and we were at that time
24 losing our people, losing our property, so that convoy
25 should not have been allowed to go through, especially
Page 17066
1 at that particular period of time, that it shouldn't
2 have been allowed to enter the area.
3 But the area where the convoy was attacked is
4 that same area where, in 1992, the JNA was not allowed
5 to pull out the weapons from Bratstvo. I've already
6 spoken about that.
7 JUDGE MAY: General, we'll make quicker
8 progress if you could just concentrate on the
9 question. The question was: "Could anybody control the
10 convoy or what would happen to it?" Could you just
11 briefly give us an answer to that?
12 A. I am not a legal person, so please guide me
13 in terms of the procedure.
14 My answer is nobody ever heard that anyone
15 organised an attack against this convoy.
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, let's move on.
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Just one
18 follow-up question, Your Honour.
19 Q. How many refugees did flee the area engulfed
20 in the conflict in those days?
21 A. At least 20.000 Croats from the Travnik
22 municipality, some areas in Novi Travnik, Vitez, and
23 Busovaca municipalities, which would come to a total of
24 about 30.000 people.
25 Q. Another question related to paragraph 50.
Page 17067
1 You remembered when Mr. Kordic told some people to let
2 the convoy go. What do you know about that?
3 A. I was told from -- I heard from people in
4 Novi Travnik, and when you -- when they arrived in the
5 Lasva pocket, in this corral, if we can call it that,
6 they related that they were received by a number of
7 people, including Kordic and Blaskic -- I don't know if
8 they were there together or not -- and that they all
9 trained their weapons at Mr. Kordic and his escort, and
10 that he barely got out of there alive. I think that
11 Mr. Blaskic was also present there.
12 I never even considered going into such
13 perilous situations. I always went directly against
14 the enemy, because I would -- I thought that I would
15 rather be killed by the enemy than be involved in
16 situations where I had people that were out of control.
17 Q. We will now move on to the next area of
18 questioning, which we bring under the common heading of
19 "Dario Kordic". Paragraphs 51 through 56.
20 When you arrived in Central Bosnia, you said
21 that you mentioned people who were the key persons in
22 that area. Mr. Kordic was one of them, but there were
23 others in addition to him; isn't that right?
24 A. My profession also implies a judgement of
25 people and seeing who is best able to do a certain job,
Page 17068
1 and if I look at the Lasva River Valley, the four
2 municipalities, Matisic in Travnik, and there were some
3 others. It's all here in the summary, but there were
4 people who really wanted to place themselves in the
5 service of their people.
6 Q. You partially answered the questions
7 contained in paragraph 52, but can you tell us a little
8 bit about your view of Mr. Kordic? You said that he
9 was a political leader, that he was able to motivate
10 people?
11 A. I would not like to repeat myself too much.
12 I could elaborate on some of these things. But without
13 a doubt, Mr. Kordic was a person who was able to
14 motivate people or try to do so. It was very
15 convincing. He had very strong -- very clear views.
16 He had the courage to go into difficult situations.
17 When we went to Jajce, there was a
18 16-kilometre stretch, very dangerous. Only about 30
19 people volunteered to go there. Then I approached the
20 political leadership through Blaskic, but I approached
21 Mr. Kordic. It wasn't very formal, though. I asked of
22 him to do something, because we had to do it, and
23 Mr. Kordic and others interceded. And after that, we
24 had regular shifts of people going to Jajce and
25 elsewhere.
Page 17069
1 So this was the climate, and this is the role
2 that political leadership had. It wasn't just
3 political structures. You needed to involve other
4 people in order to get things done and individuals
5 involved.
6 Q. Can you please tell us, did you ever -- you
7 heard him speak, you heard his speeches -- did you ever
8 hear him use any derogatory terms in relation to other
9 ethnic groups, especially the Muslims, as they were
10 called at the time?
11 A. Never, in terms of ethnic groups. But with
12 respect to extremists within those ethnic groups who,
13 in those circumstances, were our enemies, he was very
14 sharp and also very realistic in terms of what needed
15 to be done and how things needed to be approached.
16 Q. If I understand you correctly, he never had
17 anything against groups as a whole.
18 A. No, just extremists and perhaps some groups,
19 but in relation to them, perhaps there were some
20 harsher words too.
21 Q. Let's move on to paragraph 53. You said that
22 Mr. Kordic was in Novi Travnik. Could he come and
23 learn about the military situation there?
24 A. Mr. Kordic and others like Matisic in
25 Travnik, and Pero Krizanac also in Travnik, could at
Page 17070
1 any time attend the briefings and meetings wherever it
2 was necessary in order to familiarise themselves with
3 issues and not infrequently they did so. And again, I
4 repeat: They had no commanding role or meddling, if I
5 can put it that way, in military matters, but simply in
6 order to facilitate their later activity in mobilising
7 forces and so on and so forth.
8 Q. Yes. You said that a number of times. No
9 civilian, including those who you just mentioned, had
10 any role or part in that chain of command.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Paragraph 54. When you arrived, you found
13 Mr. Kordic in the role of one of the early organisers
14 of institutions in the area, but later, you and
15 Mr. Blaskic, who were trained officers, took over all
16 these jobs. In other words, you organised the military
17 aspects of the HVO.
18 A. I don't know specifically what Mr. Kordic's
19 role was before my arrival there -- I can only guess --
20 but after I took over the regional headquarters and
21 then Blaskic the organisation and especially combat,
22 was always within the chain of command. As far as the
23 logistics is concerned, for instance, supply of fuels,
24 food, we did not have facilities for that. This is
25 what the civilians did, and also the municipal
Page 17071
1 government would also provide with us salaries. They
2 were doing the payrolls if there was money. So that
3 was 20 or 30 marks a month. So Colonel Filipovic
4 received a salary of 20 to 30 marks a month, and this
5 was provided to me by the municipal government.
6 Q. General, you were a trained soldier. You are
7 a trained soldier. Can you give us your assessment of
8 whether Mr. Kordic had any military knowledge of any
9 kind?
10 A. If he had it, he did not display it, but I
11 don't think that he did have any, nor did he ever try
12 to make it appear as if he did.
13 Q. You know that he just did his military
14 service just as all men of military age were obliged to
15 do in the former Yugoslav army?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. General, did you ever hear Kordic issue any
18 order to any special purpose units or any other regular
19 HVO unit or any part, any minutest unit of the HVO in
20 the Central Bosnia area while during your stay there?
21 A. My answer again is "No."
22 Q. When I spoke about the smallest or minutest
23 units, I refer to Jokers and Vitezovi and Alfa Force or
24 whatever their names were. Is your answer the same for
25 all units?
Page 17072
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Page 17073
1 A. There were many other units who were -- with
2 different names and who skirted their obligation to be
3 part of the chain of command and who looked for ways
4 not to be part of the defence but, rather, be involved
5 in things other than the defence.
6 Q. Yes, I understand you, but we are here to
7 defend Mr. Kordic. So my question to you is: Do you
8 know of any connection of Mr. Kordic to any of these
9 units?
10 A. No.
11 Q. General, we're turning now to paragraph 56.
12 We spoke a lot here about Mr. Kordic's rank of
13 colonel. You were the only real colonel, which is a
14 rank that you brought from the JNA, but do you know how
15 Mr. Kordic was given this honorary rank?
16 A. My rank was implicit, so to speak. I did
17 not -- I was not reappointed in that rank for the HVO,
18 but everybody just respected it. I insisted that
19 Blaskic also be conferred the rank of colonel because
20 that was the commanding position that he was carrying
21 out, and I addressed him as "colonel" and that was the
22 practice.
23 In the summer of 1992, the negotiations
24 started in the Sarajevo airport. General Mladic and
25 General Halilovic were representatives of the other two
Page 17074
1 sides, and Colonel Blaskic was representing our side.
2 Technically speaking, Generals Mladic and Halilovic
3 took about an hour to come and go, whereas for
4 Colonel Blaskic, it took one or two days. And this
5 happened a couple of times, and I said, "This cannot go
6 on like this. We have to appoint a different person to
7 go to the Sarajevo airport."
8 Q. Why?
9 A. Because the commander cannot be absent from
10 his post for such a long period of time. And the
11 possibility arose that Mr. Kordic would be such a
12 person, but he couldn't go there without a rank. So I
13 said, "If I'm a colonel, he can be a colonel, and this
14 is something that he needs in order to get the job
15 done." So I insisted that we all call him "Colonel."
16 And I think that this was done for this
17 specific purpose. I know that there was a Colonel
18 Jovic who was appointed major general in order to go on
19 a mission to Africa. As far as Mr. Kordic is
20 concerned, whether he was officially confirmed, and I
21 believe he was in this rank, but nobody ever questioned
22 his rank. He did not abuse it, and it was understood
23 that this is what it was.
24 Q. So his rank remained, but he never had any
25 command duties and he never commanded over any units?
Page 17075
1 A. This rank was confirmed in a moment of
2 necessity, but he never abused it, and the rank was
3 never revoked or taken away.
4 For instance, Mr. Mesic, who is now president
5 of Croatia, he was confirmed the rank of major general,
6 even though he was never a military man. That's how it
7 went.
8 Q. Very well. I'll just touch on paragraph 57.
9 Excuse me.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like to ask the witness
11 why he formed the view that Mr. Kordic would not be
12 able to participate in the negotiations unless he was
13 styled "Colonel."
14 A. Your Honour, I did not conclude this, I knew
15 it.
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Maybe you should explain to the Judges what
18 kind of negotiations these were.
19 A. These were negotiations of the military
20 commanders of all three parties.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: And only military
22 personnel --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And only military personnel
25 could participate in them?
Page 17076
1 A. Only military personnel. And to my
2 knowledge, the first meeting was attended by both
3 Mladic and Sefer Halilovic and Blaskic. In the second
4 meeting, some of them delegated other persons.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could I ask you to explain
6 another statement. You said that, "If I'm a colonel,
7 he could also be a colonel." I didn't quite understand
8 that, but you are a professional soldier. Could you
9 explain that?
10 A. In the HVO, there were no official ranks
11 until April of 1994. It had to do with the -- there
12 was organisation and combat was going on, so there was
13 lack of organisation and just the lack of trained
14 personnel that staffed -- that was staffed by the
15 Ministry of Defence. There were not enough
16 higher-ranking professional officers. People gave
17 themselves ranks or other people gave them certain
18 ranks.
19 For instance, in the Travnik Brigade or at
20 the front line in Jajce, I addressed certain persons by
21 certain rank publicly before everybody else, because I
22 personally considered that this was the rank that a
23 certain person should have. This was not official.
24 Usually these ranks are confirmed at the top level
25 down, but the combat required more efficiency and this
Page 17077
1 is what was more efficient.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Naumovski.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Thank you very much.
4 Q. [Interpretation] I just wanted to close this
5 paragraph 57. Who had authority to initiate
6 disciplinary measures against their subordinate
7 soldiers at various levels?
8 A. Commanders. Commanders.
9 Q. My last question: According to the best of
10 your knowledge and recollection, did Mr. Kordic have
11 any role in the military disciplinary investigations or
12 cases?
13 A. Dario Kordic did not. Others who were in the
14 hierarchy, in the chain of command did, but Mr. Kordic
15 did not it, because he had no role to play in this.
16 Q. General, I believe that we have made good
17 progress. I think we have only one area left, and that
18 is paragraph 58, the HVO [sic] troops in Central Bosnia
19 or absence of them, as you said.
20 Were there any HV units or soldiers in the
21 Central Bosnia area or even military vehicles of the
22 HV, to your knowledge?
23 A. As far as Central Bosnia is concerned, there
24 were no individuals, let alone HV troops. And when I
25 refer to "HV troops," I mean the troops from the
Page 17078
1 Republic of Croatia. Unfortunately, there were many
2 military personnel from all around the world, but not
3 from Croatia, and the reason is simple. The Croats in
4 Central Bosnia were in such a -- in a position to
5 defend themselves, and the Croatian army was not strong
6 enough to help them defend that territory.
7 When soldiers ask me why we didn't get any
8 assistance from the Croatian army, I told them that
9 this was like -- that it was like a newborn child and
10 that it was not strong enough to do such a thing.
11 There were individuals from Bosnia, those who
12 were born in Bosnia, who grew up in Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina, who wore badges or insignia of the
14 Croatian army and there were those who wore insignia
15 of -- there were others, British, German, and so on.
16 I'm talking about the Croatian side. But people from
17 Croatia, those who were born and bred in Croatia, they
18 were not in Central Bosnia. Unfortunately, they were
19 not there.
20 Q. You say "unfortunately" as a professional
21 soldier, somebody who knew what they could have used at
22 the time.
23 A. Thousands of -- I don't know how I should
24 call them -- people who were against me, who were
25 against my way of life, people who carry weapons, who
Page 17079
1 march under different flags, but as for the assistance
2 of the army of Republic of Croatia, which would have
3 been legitimate, it was missing. I know that this may
4 reflect negatively on the image that the Croats have
5 created for themselves, but, unfortunately, the
6 assistance in Central Bosnia, which was badly needed,
7 was missing.
8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 I just said that I made good progress, but on the other
10 hand, I think it could have been better too. So maybe
11 we can come to an agreement in order for this progress
12 to be better. Perhaps these summaries could be made
13 part of the record so that we wouldn't have to go
14 through all the points and we can focus more on the
15 cross-examination, but this will, in any event,
16 conclude my examination of General Filipovic. Thank
17 you.
18 JUDGE MAY: We did not exhibit the
19 Prosecution summaries, and I don't think it would be
20 right to exhibit these unless there is a measure of
21 agreement between the parties that that should be done
22 in order to save time. But, in fact, you've covered
23 the summary, because I've been following it.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 Thank you.
Page 17080
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Page 17081
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
3 Mr. Naumovski, I believe that the witness has just told
4 us that there was no assistance coming from Croatia,
5 even though this assistance, this help, would have been
6 justified. He believes that assistance from Croatia
7 would have been justified, legitimate, but there was
8 no -- there was no assistance, because the state of
9 Croatia was like a newborn child. I would like to ask
10 you, General, whether it would have been legitimate for
11 Croatia to help you.
12 A. In my opinion, if people are suffering, if
13 the French people, Americans, Germans are suffering
14 anywhere in the world, France, the US, Germany has to
15 help with whatever means are available.
16 We were suffering in Lasva Valley. Half of
17 the population no longer lives where it used to live
18 there. My family lost all it had. In this context,
19 Croatia has an obligation to help and this was our
20 understanding, and we expected that help.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But did
22 Croatia have the obligation to assist you because you
23 yourself were Croats, because, ethnically speaking, you
24 defined yourself as a Croat, or was it because Croatia
25 shared the same objectives as you?
Page 17082
1 A. I'm not talking about objectives, I am
2 talking about living in the area of which we are
3 talking. If the Serbs are superior with the assistance
4 of Serbia or whoever else, if the Bosniaks are superior
5 with the assistance from I don't know who throughout
6 the world, so in this context, it has an obligation to
7 help Croats in Central Bosnia. And not just Croats, to
8 help people survive in that area.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
10 very much, General.
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.
12 Mr. Kovacic, Mr. Mikulicic, perhaps you'd
13 like to make a start, and we'll go on until about ten
14 past four.
15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
16 Your Honours.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:
18 Q. Good afternoon, General Filipovic. My name
19 is Mikulicic. I'm a lawyer from Zagreb, and with my
20 colleague Mr. Kovacic, I represent Mr. Mario Cerkez.
21 I will ask you several questions. I will be
22 much shorter than Mr. Naumovski, and I will ask you to
23 answer them to the best your recollection.
24 General, you said, in the beginning, that on
25 the 12th of April, 1992, you came to the Lasva Valley.
Page 17083
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Will you please try to remember what was the
3 situation at that time and later in the course of 1992,
4 the situation that prevailed in Vitez? What kind of a
5 military structure, military organisational layout did
6 you find upon your arrival?
7 A. Your Honours, I said that I left the JNA on
8 the 10th of April. I went to Doboj, talked with my
9 wife about the evacuation, her and children and
10 parents, and then I went to Travnik, that is, Vitez, as
11 I knew Mr. Marijan Skopljak. So it must have been as
12 early as the 12th that I was in Vitez and was talking
13 with Mr. Marijan Skopljak about the evacuation of my
14 family from Doboj. That was where I met Mr. Cerkez,
15 who at that time was a jack of all trades in that
16 municipal command or that stage of organisation in
17 Vitez.
18 They managed to put together ten men who then
19 travelled to Doboj in vehicles, and that was far from
20 simple, and they got my wife, my children, and my
21 parents out of Doboj and took them to Travnik.
22 Q. So at the time Mr. Marijan Skopljak, when you
23 came there, was, if we may define it so, the key person
24 in the municipal headquarters of the HVO in Vitez?
25 A. Correct.
Page 17084
1 Q. General, do you remember being present at the
2 talks and those talks taking place in a pub in Vitez,
3 in a pub which was owned by Mr. Marijan Skopljak?
4 A. That is Mr. Marijan Skopljak's house. I know
5 the lower floor, that is, on the ground floor, there
6 was a restaurant. I believe it was called Konaba
7 [phoen].
8 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Will the
9 usher please show Exhibit D66/2. It is a photograph.
10 Could it be, please, shown to the witness to see if he
11 can identify it, D66/2. [In English] Could I ask
12 Mr. Usher to put it on the ELMO, please, the colour
13 one.
14 Q. General, can you recognise the house that we
15 were talking about, that is, Marijan Skopljak's house,
16 and the restaurant Konaba?
17 A. Yes. This is the restaurant Konaba, and we
18 met in this auxiliary building [indicates].
19 Q. And is it correct that that was a kind of
20 operative headquarters of the staff of the Vitez
21 municipality?
22 A. Yes. I remember that in two smallish rooms
23 which had not been furnished properly or even finished
24 properly, there was no plaster or anything but there
25 was a table and a couple of chairs, and that was, among
Page 17085
1 all the things, where we met and also discussed the
2 evacuation of my family from Doboj.
3 Q. Thank you. General, you already said that
4 the principal objective the HVO pursued in the
5 municipality of Vitez and beyond it in Central Bosnia
6 was to structure itself, to organise itself, so as to
7 better resist the advancing forces of the army of
8 Bosnian Serbs and the JNA; is that correct?
9 A. It is.
10 Q. Likewise, you mentioned that you participated
11 and that there were certain military operations
12 organised with a view to moving out the JNA units from
13 the barracks in adjacent places and takeover of the
14 weapons?
15 A. Organised with me as the head of the
16 operation, that is, after my arrival.
17 Q. And this action was not participated only by
18 the HVO members but also members of the Territorial
19 Defence, that is, Bosniaks; is that correct?
20 A. It is, insofar as they were able to take part
21 or, rather, insofar as I could trust the units that I
22 had.
23 Q. One of these actions was the taking over of
24 the barracks at Slimena. If I am correct, you took
25 part in that action personally; rather, you commanded
Page 17086
1 that action.
2 A. It is.
3 Q. Do you remember if my client, Mr. Cerkez,
4 under the orders of Mr. Marijan Skopljak, was also to
5 take part in that action?
6 A. He was to take part in that action, and he
7 did.
8 Q. On that occasion, General, you managed to get
9 two anti-aircraft cannons for that action from the
10 municipal staff of the TO?
11 A. A three-barrel cannon of 20 millimetres and
12 Bofors, and they were manned by mixed crews of the TO
13 and the HVO; not only those cannons. But I found, when
14 I arrived and then participated in equipping that
15 battery, because we wanted it to serve as an example to
16 all the other units, it was a mixed crew made up of
17 Muslims and Croats, but the majority were Muslims.
18 Q. Very well. But this was an action which was
19 jointly organised. It was no secret action that would
20 have been conducted by only and exclusively by the HVO?
21 A. Well, it was secret insofar as when you
22 organise something, it does require certain secrecy,
23 but not an action conducted by the HVO. There had
24 been, before that, negotiations with Cengic, with
25 Hamdija Cengic in Vitez, and I think that General
Page 17087
1 Merdan and Dugalic also took part in it as regards the
2 activity and distribution of the weaponry in that
3 depot.
4 Q. I apologise, General, if I was somewhat
5 confused. When I said "secret," I meant secret in the
6 sense that it was hidden from the Muslims or, rather,
7 the TO. It was you did not conceal that action from
8 them. But you've already answered my question.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well. You also said that Mr. Cerkez
11 took part in that operation. Was his task to bring the
12 volunteers from Vitez at a certain time to a certain
13 place where the action was to start?
14 A. As far as I can remember, yes, that was his
15 task. But he wasn't a surety, but he was a kind of a
16 man I could trust, really, so he made me feel more
17 secure, because I negotiated with the chief of that
18 depot under sniper fire.
19 Q. His name was Kostic?
20 A. Yes, Kostic, to try to resolve it in a manner
21 worthy of military and saying that they should be
22 allowed to leave with their personal weapons in a
23 manner that military should do; that is, not to
24 surrender but simply to pull out and go to their
25 people, that is, in the barracks in Travnik.
Page 17088
1 Q. But those negotiations failed?
2 A. I saw it in his eyes, that nothing would come
3 out of these negotiations, and at night he just blew up
4 the depot.
5 Q. And then the HVO and TO came by a certain
6 quantity of weaponry. Could you tell us, how was it
7 distributed?
8 A. These weapons, I mean, from Slimena were not
9 distributed, but the crowd went through the security
10 guards that we had positioned to avoid any casualties.
11 But the crowd simply passed upon that field and began
12 to grab it, to grab the materiel which was there
13 scattered over all the meadows and fields and whatnot.
14 And I know that General Merdan and Dugalic arrived with
15 several trucks, and I also know that from the municipal
16 staffs of the HVO, groups came in vehicles and took
17 materiel away. So it was not distributed. It was
18 snatched, grabbed, and plundered.
19 Q. Very well. I used the wrong term. It was a
20 misnomer. I should have said -- I should have asked
21 whether the TO army, that is, the Bosnian side, got any
22 of the weapons that had been kept in the depot.
23 A. As far as the barrels and personal weapons
24 are concerned, they took much more -- a much larger
25 share than the HVO. And that is what I claim, what I
Page 17089
1 affirm, because there were wounded and I believe there
2 were even some fatality, and they show that they were
3 all Muslims.
4 That day, I did not have a single Croat
5 casualty, but that night there was fighting, and two
6 HVO members were killed and eight of them sustained
7 severe injuries. When the commander blew up those
8 facilities, then that and all the rubble and materiel
9 simply buried the men who were besieging the barracks.
10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I
11 would now like to move to another topic, so perhaps
12 this would be a convenient time to break for today. I
13 mean you said that we would be working until 4.10.
14 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Half past
15 9.00, please, tomorrow morning.
16 Would you be back, Major General Filipovic,
17 then, for half past 9.00.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
19 4.14 p.m., to be reconvened on
20 Wednesday, the 12th day of April, 2000,
21 at 9.30 a.m.
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