Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18444

1 Thursday, 11 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

7 declaration.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is

9 not on.

10 JUDGE MAY: Could you please repeat it for

11 the interpretation

12 WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

13 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

14 and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd

18 like to take a seat.

19 Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

21 Your Honours.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for

23 Mr. Naumovski, please.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise.

25 Before we start, two things, please. First

Page 18445

1 of all, I would like to ask the Court to give two or

2 three minutes to the Kordic Defence after we finish

3 questioning the witnesses. We would like to

4 familiarise the Court with two or three matters.

5 Also, I wish to tell the Court that Mr. Arar

6 came today because he wishes to testify, but he is

7 still in not a very good condition, so I wish to ask

8 the Honourable Judges to make it possible for Mr. Arar

9 to leave the courtroom at some point if he feels so

10 unwell, with your permission.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 Mr. Arar, we will try and see that this

13 session is as short as possible. Do you feel well

14 enough now to make a start? You'll have to speak up,

15 I'm afraid.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I feel well,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. But if at any stage

19 you don't feel well, just indicate and we can adjourn

20 for a few moments.

21 Mr. Naumovski, no doubt, with that in mind,

22 you can take the matter as quickly as you can in order

23 that the witness doesn't have to stay too long. Begin,

24 if you would, with his full name.

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

Page 18446

1 Your Honour.

2 Examined by Mr. Naumovski:

3 Q. Mr. Arar, could you please speak up, first

4 and foremost, and please give us your name.

5 A. Ivo Arar.

6 Q. Mr. Arar, you were born on the 19th of May,

7 1948 in Kiseljak; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. You are a Bosnian Croat by ethnicity and a

10 Roman Catholic by religion?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. You are a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. A few words about your schooling. You

15 completed elementary school in Kiseljak and secondary

16 school in Sarajevo?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. After completing secondary school in 1968,

19 you did your compulsory military service in the

20 Yugoslav People's Army from 1968 to 1969?

21 A. Exactly.

22 Q. After completing your military service, you

23 went to the Republic of Germany and you worked there

24 for ten years, from 1970 to 1980?

25 A. Correct.

Page 18447

1 Q. You worked as a construction worker most of

2 the time; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. After that, about 1980, you returned to

5 Kiseljak from Germany and started your own construction

6 business, and you did that all the way up to 1991?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Right now you live and work in the town of

9 Knin in the Republic of Croatia, and you are working as

10 a janitor in the club of the Croatian army in Knin?

11 A. Exactly.

12 Q. Mr. Arar, could you just wait for my

13 questions to be interpreted first and then answer them,

14 to make it easier for the interpreters.

15 Mr. Arar, as for Mr. Ignac Kostroman, you've

16 known him all your life; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When the HVO was just being organised -- oh,

19 I do apologise. When the HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina

20 was just being organised, Mr. Ignac Kostroman became

21 the administrative secretary of the HDZ of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina?

23 A. Yes, exactly.

24 Q. As I said, this was after 1990, 1991, and you

25 spent time with him, first when the establishment was

Page 18448

1 being set up and then when you started working with

2 him?

3 A. Yes, exactly.

4 Q. After Sarajevo had been surrounded by the

5 forces of the Bosnian Serb army, you returned from

6 Sarajevo to Kiseljak; is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. From that April 1992, when you returned to

9 Kiseljak -- or rather, in April you became the escort

10 and driver of Mr. Ignac Kostroman; is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And you carried out these duties for almost

13 two years, is that right, throughout the civil war, all

14 the way up to March 1994; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. You were with Mr. Kostroman more or less all

17 the time, except for when the Busovaca-Kiseljak road

18 was cut off, and when in 1993 you were on the other

19 side in Kiseljak and when it was impossible for you to

20 return to Busovaca?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. However, from the 24th of January, 1993,

23 until the end of April 1993, that was the case, wasn't

24 it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18449

1 Q. How did you return from Kiseljak to Tisovac?

2 With whose assistance?

3 A. Your Honours, I returned with the help of


5 Q. Thank you. Quite a bit of this time that

6 Mr. Kostroman spent in Tisovac, you spent with him, and

7 you are more or less familiar with the situation in

8 that house where you also lived in Tisovac?

9 A. Exactly.

10 Q. During your stay there, you had the

11 opportunity to see various political delegations coming

12 in, delegations of political parties, et cetera; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. I imagine they were not delegations of a

16 single ethnic group only.

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. So we're talking about delegations of Serbs,

19 Muslims, the International Community, et cetera; is

20 that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Arar, together with Kostroman, you lived

23 in that same house, the former Vila Ivancica where

24 Mr. Kostroman worked, and Mr. Kordic too. Tell me, how

25 many people worked together with you doing various

Page 18450

1 things?

2 A. There was a total number of 14 persons who

3 were working there.

4 Q. That includes a comprehensive pattern of

5 staff, doesn't it; cooks, drivers, guards, yourself

6 included?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. You were some kind of an office, weren't

9 you? There was Mr. Kostroman, Mr. Kordic, and the 14

10 of you who helped them work; is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Tell me, how should I call this group of

13 people?

14 A. Staff.

15 Q. What kind of clothes did you wear?

16 A. Military uniforms.

17 Q. However, not everybody were soldiers?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Tell me, please, at that time, to the best of

20 your knowledge, the headquarters of the Nikola

21 Subic-Zrinjski Brigade was originally located in the

22 post office building in the town of Busovaca; isn't

23 that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. But later it was moved to another place.

Page 18451

1 A. Yes, that's right, to the Sumarija building.

2 Q. Is that also in Busovaca?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The office where Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Kordic

5 worked, that is to say, of the HDZ and Croatian

6 Community of Herceg-Bosna, did it ever have its

7 headquarters either in Sumarija in Busovaca or in the

8 post office building in Busovaca?

9 A. As far as I know, no.

10 Q. When you were there, especially after the

11 summer of 1992, was this building where you were in

12 Tisovac or the area around it, was it ever used as a

13 military facility?

14 A. No, it was not.

15 Q. Tell us, Mr. Kostroman -- I do apologise.

16 Mr. Arar, have you ever heard of the Scorpions, a

17 military unit known as the Scorpions?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. Have you ever heard of Mr. Kordic ever having

20 had some kind of a role in selecting soldiers for any

21 unit of the HVO, or of the military police, or of some

22 special unit of a different nature?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You were there all the time, so you know

25 Mr. Kordic. You know the basic duties that he

Page 18452

1 performed while you were Mr. Kostroman's escort?

2 A. Of course.

3 Q. Could you please tell the Honourable Court

4 about this?

5 A. Your Honours, Mr. Dario Kordic held the

6 office of one of the vice-presidents of the HZ HB, and

7 he was one of the presidents of the Presidency of the

8 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.

9 Q. You mean "vice-presidents"? You said

10 "presidents".

11 A. Yes, vice-presidents.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, don't lead the

13 witness on matters which are or may be important. And

14 the understanding of the role of Mr. Kordic is clearly

15 an important issue.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I understand,

17 Your Honour. As far as Mr. Arar is concerned, this was

18 a question put just in passing, so perhaps I could ask

19 something else.

20 Q. Do you know what kind of an office Mr. Kordic

21 held in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, because

22 you talked about the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna

23 a few minutes ago.

24 A. In the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

25 Mr. Dario Kordic had the role of vice-president of the

Page 18453

1 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

2 Q. Very well. You talked about the Croatian

3 Republic as well. Did he perform any duties there too?

4 A. No. I made a mistake.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Arar, let us move on to the

6 main subject, why you've actually been called to

7 testify here before this Honourable Court. And that is

8 an incident at the Kacuni checkpoint where you were

9 present. Tell us, please, in your opinion, when did

10 this happen and which direction were you going back

11 from? Tell us about that in two or three words, and

12 then we'll proceed.

13 A. It was between the 20th and 21st of January,

14 1993. We were returning from the direction of Travnik.

15 Q. Which road did you take, who was with you,

16 and what had happened in Travnik?

17 A. We were returning from Travnik. This was HDZ

18 and the SDA of both parties. As we were returning,

19 Mr. Dario Kordic went to Busovaca, to his home, and we

20 proceeded straight to Kiseljak.

21 Q. When you say "we", what do you mean?

22 A. I proceeded, as well as Mr. Kostroman and

23 Mr. Miro Musa, who sat in the co-drivers seat on the

24 right-hand side, whereas Mr. Kostroman sat in the back

25 seat. We came to the entrance to Kacuni. We did not

Page 18454

1 notice anything.

2 When we came to an intersection where there

3 is a mosque, that intersection leads straight to the

4 Silos, that's where a checkpoint had been made of

5 anti-tank mines, on the left- and on the right-hand

6 side there were bunkers that were made of sandbags, and

7 behind the bunkers were soldiers. When we approached,

8 a young man walked up to us and stopped us. As soon as

9 we stopped, two were on one side and two were on the

10 other side. They said that we should turn right to the

11 Silos.

12 I looked into the rear-view mirror and I saw

13 that there was a small convoy of the UNHCR. We took a

14 bit of time there. I turned to the right, but I went a

15 bit to the back as well, so I saw this convoy pass, and

16 I saw the army, the Bosnian army, remove the mines

17 because the convoy had to go to Sarajevo.

18 Q. Just a second, please. I do apologise for

19 having interrupted you. Could you just give us a few

20 details? These soldiers who had surrounded you, were

21 they armed? Or tell us something about that.

22 A. The soldiers who were around us were wounded

23 [as interpreted]. They had long rifles, automatic

24 rifles. I also saw two machine guns, and I saw an

25 RPG. I was a bit familiar with it because I -- as I

Page 18455

1 passed through this area, I saw that my face was a bit

2 similar.

3 Q. Oh, so you had seen this man before; is that

4 what you're trying to say?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Did anyone ever tell you his name?

7 A. I heard later that his name was Delija. I

8 never knew his first name, though.

9 Q. Oh, so somebody told you that?

10 A. Well, yes. As we talked, somebody told me.

11 I don't know who it was. Somebody told me that his

12 surname was Delija.

13 Q. All right. Let us continue from where you

14 stopped. You said that you were told to go towards the

15 Silos, you stopped there, and what happened then?

16 A. Then two soldiers were on one side and two

17 soldiers were on the other side. They pointed their

18 rifles at us, and one of the soldiers said to Mr. Miro

19 Musa to get out with his hands up. Also, the other one

20 said the same thing. He also said, "The other one

21 too." When we did that, they took our weapons. They

22 only took one automatic rifle from us and a

23 nine-millimetre pistol, a Browning pistol.

24 Q. Whose pistol was that?

25 A. It was my very own pistol.

Page 18456

1 Q. Very well. Did you ask them something? Did

2 you try to talk to them?

3 A. I asked this one man, who was on the

4 right-hand side by Mr. Miro Musa, I said, "Friend, what

5 do we need all of this for? We are going from a

6 meeting now, where your leaders were too." And he

7 said, "Friend, perhaps we do know each other, perhaps

8 we don't. We got orders. We got orders from Zenica."

9 I asked him, "All right, boy. Who did you get these

10 orders from? How could you get orders when all of your

11 people were in Travnik?" And now I'm quoting. He

12 said, "We got orders from Mr. Dzemal Merdan."

13 Q. Did he give you -- how should I put this? --

14 some kind of code-name for this action?

15 A. This boy didn't tell me a thing. I heard

16 from another person who was a bit older. He said,

17 exactly, "The bird is in the cage," Bird number 2, at

18 that. I think that Bird number 2 had to be a code-name

19 for Mr. Kostroman.

20 Q. Very well. So there was a verbal

21 conversation there. You were asking what all of this

22 was about and this went on for a while, didn't it?

23 A. Yes. It went on for about ten minutes or so,

24 until the convoy left for Sarajevo. I heard all sorts

25 of things being said: "Kill them. The Ustashas should

Page 18457

1 be killed." I also heard -- how shall I put this? I

2 heard a man who was drunk or whatever, and he was

3 singing the following song: "From Sarajevo to Kupreska

4 Vrata [phoen] There will be neither any Serbs nor

5 Croats."

6 Later on, when there seemed to be even more

7 trouble, I looked into the other direction. I saw two

8 vehicles coming from Busovaca. In the first vehicle --

9 I saw that this was a vehicle from Tisovac. In the

10 first vehicle I saw Bogdan. I don't know the surnames

11 exactly. I'll give you their first names. I saw

12 Bogdan, I saw this -- Bogdan. I cannot remember all

13 the names. I know Bogdan was there, and Milenko,

14 Milenko Arapovic, and another one in the first

15 vehicle. And in the second vehicle, I saw a man whose

16 name I don't know. I just know his nickname. Krezo is

17 his nickname.

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. When they saw that these vehicles had

20 arrived, there was panic. The gentleman nicknamed

21 Krezo said, "[Realtime transcript read in error

22 "jerks"], if you do not release

23 Mr. Kostroman, my car is full of explosives; we are

24 going to blow everything and everything up, and we are

25 all going to die." In a very short period of time,

Page 18458

1 Mr. Kostroman was released.

2 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, there appears to be

3 a typographical error at line 21 of page 14. I think

4 the word "gentlemen" was used and not the word that

5 appears there. I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's line 21.


7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Please go ahead, Mr. Kostroman [as

9 interpreted]. Please continue. You said that this man

10 nicknamed Krezo said that he would activate the

11 explosive and --

12 A. Mr. Mira Musa and I got into the car and we

13 set off. Our car was first, and these two other cars,

14 one was from Tisovac and one was from the civilian

15 police, as far as I can remember. We continued our

16 drive to Kiseljak. We reached a cafe about two or

17 three kilometres from the checkpoint where we had been

18 stopped. We sat there for about an hour and a half or

19 two, and from there we proceeded straight to Kresevo.

20 We arrived in Kresevo around 10.30, 10.30, or 2230

21 hours.

22 Q. Very well. Are you sure about the number of

23 vehicles that came from the direction of Busovaca?

24 A. I'm sure. I'm sure I saw two vehicles. I

25 did not see any others.

Page 18459

1 Q. Tell us, please: On that occasion, at that

2 checkpoint, apart from the vehicle that you,

3 Mr. Kostroman, and your colleague Mira Musa were in, at

4 this moment when you were halted, was there any other

5 vehicle going with you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Tell us, please: Was Mr. Kordic stopped at

8 that checkpoint together with Mr. Kostroman?

9 A. He was not.

10 Q. You have heard about the contention that on

11 that occasion Mr. Kordic was also stopped at that

12 checkpoint, not only you, but when you were allegedly

13 moving from the direction of Kiseljak towards Busovaca?

14 A. Your Honours, that is not true.

15 Q. So you're affirming what you just said a

16 moment ago, that you were coming from the opposite

17 direction?

18 A. Correct.

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

20 I should like to adduce an exhibit at this point.

21 Yesterday the question was asked if there was any trace

22 in writing about the incident that took place on that

23 occasion at Kacuni. It is a report entitled "Report on

24 Incidents in the Area of Central Bosnia," dated 23rd

25 January, 1993, and it was written and signed by the

Page 18460

1 commander of the 4th Battalion of the military police

2 in Vitez and addressed to the Operative Zone Central

3 Bosnia.

4 Q. Mr. Arar, will you take up the Croatian

5 version, that is, the latter part of this exhibit, and

6 will you please look who it is addressed to and who is

7 signed.

8 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked

9 D214.1.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

11 this was an exhibit which was used in Blaskic case, and

12 there it was marked D503.

13 Q. You saw who signed this document. Will you

14 please tell the Court, do you know who Pasko Ljubicic

15 was?

16 A. Mr. Pasko Ljubicic was the commander of the

17 military police.

18 Q. In Vitez, you mean?

19 A. In Vitez, yes.

20 Q. So in this -- in the first part, if you had

21 an opportunity to look at it, where the municipality of

22 Busovaca is mentioned, this incident is mentioned that

23 Mr. Kostroman was stopped there, that this checkpoint

24 -- let me sum it up briefly -- that this checkpoint

25 was removed at a later stage and that some incidents

Page 18461

1 are mentioned that happened that night in the town of

2 Busovaca, and this seems to corroborate what you just

3 said.

4 A. This document is fully correct, but this is

5 the first time I see this document. I did not know

6 that it existed.

7 Q. Thank you. So you were not the source of the

8 information or the author of this document?

9 A. I was not.

10 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please. We are now

11 coming to the end. While Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Kordic

12 worked at Tisovac, you spent most of your time at

13 Tisovac and you were also a driver, so you will know

14 which were the vehicles that Mr. Kostroman and

15 Mr. Kordic used; you know which vehicles were parked

16 there in front of the mansion that you lived and worked

17 in?

18 A. As far as I know, there was a Mercedes, then

19 an Opel. There was a Renault 17, I think, and there

20 were some other vehicles, but they were broken. For

21 instance, there were some Golf vehicles and others, but

22 they were broken.

23 Q. Tell us, please, if Mr. Kordic or

24 Mr. Kostroman ever used a Jeep.

25 A. No, never, because we did not have one.

Page 18462

1 Q. And as you travelled around that area when

2 you escorted Mr. Kostroman, did you ever see a Jeep

3 with a white eagle painted on it?

4 A. I did not.

5 Q. So you never saw such a Jeep in the area that

6 you used to cover?

7 A. No. Only Colonel Tiho Blaskic had a Jeep,

8 but even on it there were no eagles or any emblems.

9 All that there was were HVO plates.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Arar.

11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

12 I have concluded my examination-in-chief.

13 You will now be asked questions by the

14 Prosecution. Are you all right? Can you go on? Thank

15 you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, have you any

17 questions?

18 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I was

19 doing something else. No, I don't have any questions

20 for this witness.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

22 Q. Mr. Arar, who prepared the summary from which

23 you're reading today?

24 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I don't believe the

25 witness was reading from any summary. That's a

Page 18463

1 misleading question. He doesn't have any summary

2 before him, in concordance with the Court's

3 instructions.

4 JUDGE MAY: The first question should be: "Do

5 you have a summary in front of you?"

6 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, I shall rephrase it.

7 JUDGE MAY: No, just a moment.

8 A. No, I don't.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


11 Q. Who prepared the summary that was given to

12 the Prosecution today? Or yesterday, excuse me.

13 A. I wrote it roughly in my own hand, and the

14 lawyer then typed it for me.

15 Q. You personally included in that all the

16 information about yourself you wanted this Court to

17 know; is that correct?

18 A. It is, Your Honours.

19 Q. There is a point where you indicate that the

20 source of your knowledge is because you were in the

21 inner circle. I shall point it out to the Judges.

22 It's escaping me, but you referred to yourself as being

23 in the inner circle with Mr. Kordic. Why, as an escort

24 or a driver, would you consider yourself to be in the

25 inner circle with Mr. Kordic?

Page 18464

1 A. I did not mean that I was the closest person

2 to Dario Kordic. I was with Mr. Kostroman, and

3 Mr. Kostroman was my superior.

4 Q. I'm sorry. Paragraph 27, you did say:

5 "Mr. Kordic was not at the checkpoint at any time on

6 the 20th or 21st of January or thereafter. I know this

7 because I was in the inner circle of staff members at

8 Mr. Kordic's and Mr. Kostroman's headquarters." Are

9 you suggesting you did not have a close, confidant-type

10 relationship with Mr. Kordic?

11 A. I have known Mr. Kordic since 1991. We were

12 not on particular -- there was no particularly close

13 relationship between us. It was simply business. If

14 Mr. Kordic needed something from me, then he would say

15 so to Mr. Kostroman, and Mr. Kostroman would then tell

16 me.

17 Q. What kind of business?

18 A. Well, say if he needed a car, if one had to

19 get fuel for his car, or bring food for the cooks, and

20 things like that.

21 Q. In 1991? Food for the cooks in 1991? What

22 cooks?

23 A. I didn't mean '91 for the cooks, I meant '93.

24 Q. I see. How long -- excuse me. You said in

25 your statement, your summary, that you have known

Page 18465

1 Mr. Kostroman all your life. How did you meet

2 Mr. Kostroman?

3 A. I knew him since my childhood. We played

4 together, we played football together, because we come

5 from two neighbouring municipalities. He played

6 football in his municipality, and I played it in my

7 municipality.

8 Q. The neighbouring municipalities being Kresevo

9 and Kiseljak; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you know Tihomir Blaskic all your life?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And he was from Kiseljak?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. You and Mr. Kostroman are very, very close,

16 are you not?

17 A. Well, yes.

18 Q. Now, I just want to make sure I understand

19 correctly about why you are in the inner circle. Is

20 that because you are a driver and an escort?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I think you were a very modest man. It seems

23 that you have omitted all the biographical data about

24 your being the head of the HDZ Kiseljak, which is a

25 recognised fact. Is there a reason that you don't want

Page 18466

1 to bring this up?

2 A. As regards the Kiseljak HDZ, I was one of the

3 first to form the HDZ in Kiseljak. I was one of the

4 vice-presidents of the HDZ. That was in 1991.

5 Q. Well, when did you stop being active in the

6 HDZ?

7 A. I stopped in 1994.

8 Q. Then throughout the entire formative period

9 of the Croatian Community and the Croatian Republic of

10 Herceg-Bosna, you were not only a member of the HDZ,

11 you were, in fact, the leader in Kiseljak; is that not

12 correct?

13 A. I don't know what the word "leader" means. I

14 was one of the vice-presidents, and that was in '91.

15 When I had time, I attended meetings, but those

16 meetings were very rare because I was too busy with

17 Mr. Kostroman.

18 Q. What were you doing for Mr. Kostroman in 1991

19 and '92?

20 A. Well, we went to Sarajevo together, to the

21 main headquarters of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian HDZ. For

22 a while, I was both with the security and one of the

23 drivers.

24 MS. SOMERS: I would like the usher to

25 distribute, please, Exhibit Z1364.7. I believe it is a

Page 18467

1 new exhibit. We probably can also do Z1177.1. I'm

2 sorry, I have trouble reading the marking. Sorry,

3 1177.1 has been previously introduced. If the Registry

4 would be kind enough to please pull it out.

5 If I may, with the Court's permission, go

6 ahead and begin to look at 1364.7.

7 Q. This is a document from BH command.

8 Actually, it's out of Zagreb. It's for UNPROFOR. They

9 tend to put into their who's whos only people whose

10 positions are of significance for them, either as

11 contacts, or for intelligence, or for some political or

12 military reason. Now, I notice your name on the second

13 page of it. In the left-hand column, it says: "Arar,

14 Ivo", and then "Kiseljak CCHB". That must be "Croatian

15 Community of --" it's probably "Bosna Herceg" just

16 reversed. Could you explain how your name got into

17 this particular directory, which is pretty selective?

18 JUDGE MAY: No, that's not for him to say.

19 What you can ask is this: Mr. Arar, it appears from

20 this that UNPROFOR thought that you were important

21 enough to put into their directory of authorities or

22 individuals in February 1994. Can you assist as to why

23 they may have thought that? Obviously, you can't tell

24 us why they did something, but can you think of any

25 reason why they should have put you in this directory?

Page 18468


2 Q. You've heard the Judge's question, Mr. Arar.

3 Could you be kind enough to answer it?

4 A. Your Honours, this is the first time I see

5 this document, and I really don't know why my name

6 appears here. I think that it could be perhaps only

7 because I was one of the HDZ vice-presidents in the

8 Kiseljak municipality.

9 MS. SOMERS: If we take a look at Z1177.1, if

10 the usher could perhaps put it on the ELMO, and I'm

11 really interested in identifying it initially than just

12 looking at one page. Excuse me, Mr. Usher. That is

13 the milinfosum? Mine is slightly set up a little

14 different. Yes, okay.

15 Your Honours, I'm hopeful I have the same

16 copy, but what this is is a milinfosum dated 24 August

17 1993, and what I would like to point -- or ask Mr. Arar

18 about is the entry on what is my very last page, which

19 describes "Orbats/personalities". It said: "A request

20 from Mate Boban for transport to a meeting to discuss

21 the Geneva protocols reveals the Croat political

22 hierarchy in Central Bosnia. The list, with

23 appointment, is as follows: And there is a list which

24 has "Dario Kordic" at the top. I think this is -- I'm

25 sorry. Apparently what you have been given is a more

Page 18469

1 limited edition. May I share with the Court my copy

2 and put it on the ELMO. I think you have a bit of a

3 watered-down one.

4 Mr. Usher, could I ask you, please, to take

5 my copy? I'm sorry for the inconvenience. It should

6 have been an identical document. The last page,

7 please. If you want to show the first page just so

8 that it's possible to identify it.

9 MR. SAYERS: Well, Your Honour, Exhibit

10 Z1171.1 is not a milinfosum. It comes from the ECMM,

11 and it's a two-page document and it doesn't have any

12 attachments to it.

13 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me. I can explain the

14 glitch. I'm sorry, but there was a glitch on the part

15 of our OTP which mismarked it. It should be 1179, and

16 I do apologise. That is, in fact, a milinfosum. It's

17 just simply mismarked on my copy. Again, I ask -- I'm

18 terribly sorry.

19 Q. Having looked at the basis for the entry of a

20 number of names, your name --

21 JUDGE MAY: A moment.

22 MS. SOMERS: Surely.

23 JUDGE MAY: I have it. Yes. Let the witness

24 have it, and look at the last page. Mr. Arar, do you

25 read English at all?

Page 18470

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, you'll see your name on the

3 last page.


5 Q. Mr. Arar, the list of names which Mr. Mate

6 Boban gave to UNPROFOR is on the back. Do you see your

7 name as number "R" or letter "R"? It says: "Ivo Arar,

8 Kiseljak." Is that you?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Arar, in the early part of 1991,

11 when the HDZ party was gaining momentum, you attended a

12 number of meetings. And we won't spend an inordinate

13 amount of time certainly on this, but just some of the

14 highlights of the meetings at which you were present

15 might help us understand a little bit about your role.

16 Looking at Exhibit Z7, Z11, Z30, and Z41, I

17 think all of these are in, as well as some meetings

18 from 1992, Z18.1, and also Z2787, which is a

19 photograph, I'd like to just --

20 JUDGE MAY: Let's have a look at the

21 photograph.

22 MS. SOMERS: Surely.

23 JUDGE MAY: What number is it?

24 MS. SOMERS: The photograph, Your Honour, is

25 number 2787.

Page 18471

1 JUDGE MAY: What is this a photograph of?

2 Can you help us with it, Ms. Somers?

3 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MAY: This is Mr. Tudjman?

5 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. This

6 photograph was introduced through the testimony of

7 Stjepan Tuka, and this is a meeting of some of the

8 representatives of the HDZ-BiH in the presidential

9 palace, with Franjo Tudjman. Among these persons is

10 Mr. Arar. He's in the back. If you look at the

11 female, he would be to her right in the back. A

12 younger Mr. Arar, but Mr. Arar nonetheless.

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, we better ask Mr. Arar

14 first whether he recognises himself.


16 Q. Mr. Arar, you have heard the question of the

17 judge. Can you confirm --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you attend that meeting in the

20 capacity of the driver for Mr. Kostroman or his escort?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were there other drivers invited to be

23 photographed with President Tudjman?

24 A. No. I was the vice-president of the HDZ of

25 Kiseljak at that time, because Mr. Jozo Boro could not

Page 18472

1 come with us, so I was told to go instead, and

2 Mr. Kostroman together with me.

3 Q. That was in June of 1991. Now, if we look at

4 Z7, please, which is a meeting -- excuse me one

5 second -- of July 21, 1991, do you see --

6 MS. SOMERS: Is it in front of the witness

7 yet? I guess not. Thank you.

8 Q. Do you see your name as those in attendance

9 at this meeting of the HDZ? After the name Marijan

10 Skopljak, do you see your name?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Do you recall this meeting?

13 A. No. It was a long time ago.

14 Q. So you would have to read the minutes to

15 refresh your memory about the meeting; is that correct?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. And would this meeting, would the minutes of

18 this meeting reflect every item that was discussed and

19 every vote that was taken?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. The person who was the administrative

22 secretary who signed off on these minutes, along with

23 Dario Kordic, as the chairman of that meeting, was

24 Ignac Kostroman, your friend. Was it your

25 understanding that your friend accurately recorded all

Page 18473

1 the meeting minutes, every vote, dissenting and

2 affirming?

3 A. I would not know that.

4 Q. Just a couple of points, since you don't seem

5 to have an independent recollection of things, but

6 there were some comments that were made, and I wonder

7 if you could just tell us if you agree with them.

8 There was a comment, for example, discussing

9 the following: "Because of the loss of confidence in

10 the HDZ in some areas, there are attempts to establish

11 other Croatian parties with more radical goals." Do

12 you remember that? Is that correct?

13 A. I don't know that. I did not write this.

14 Yes, I was present, but I did not write it. This is

15 the first time I see these minutes, this record here.

16 Q. "There is also discontent with some members of

17 the presidency that is being raised." Did you feel

18 discontent with some members of the presidency? That

19 would have been Stjepan Kljuic and the members of his

20 slate.

21 A. As for me, I was quite happy with everybody.

22 I was not a politician. That is, I was a politician

23 only in Kiseljak, and only in the HDZ party. And as

24 for the top, nothing; I only went as a driver. Nobody

25 asked my opinion there.

Page 18474

1 MS. SOMERS: Can we please turn to Z11, which

2 is 13 August 1991.

3 Q. You have it in front of you? This particular

4 meeting had present Mate Boban, and again the minutes

5 were signed off by -- sorry to fumble here -- by your

6 friend, Ignac Kostroman, and also listing the

7 chairpersons as Mate Boban, Martin Udovicic, and Dario

8 Kordic. Now, this -- do you have any recollection of

9 this meeting, what took place there? It was a fairly

10 contentious meeting. Does that stick out in your

11 memory?

12 A. I remember the meeting, but I was not present

13 at the meeting.

14 Q. If you look at the first page of the agenda,

15 maybe it's wrong, maybe your friend didn't mark it

16 correctly, but it does say, first page: "Present at

17 the session, under Kiseljak, Josip Boro, Marko

18 Frankovic ..." And what's the third name there? Is it

19 Ivo Arar?

20 A. I think this is a mistake. I did come, but I

21 drove Mr. Kostroman there and I didn't attend this

22 meeting.

23 Q. So you, as the representative of the HDZ

24 Kiseljak, waited outside, in your dual role as driver,

25 while a very important meeting with Mate Boban took

Page 18475

1 place; is that correct?

2 A. Vice-president. I was not president.

3 Vice-president. The third one, at that.

4 Vice-president.

5 Q. I'm sorry. I said "representative". But

6 whatever your role, vice-president is -- you consider

7 that insignificant?

8 A. I do not, but I don't think that it is

9 necessary to have two or three men from one place. The

10 only role that I played was that of driver over there.

11 As for the rest of them, they did what they had to do

12 at the meeting.

13 Q. Well, at this point, Mate Boban was also just

14 a vice-president. He was Mr. Kljuic's vice-president,

15 wasn't he?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At this meeting, there is a lot of criticism

18 of Mr. Kljuic, who I don't believe was there. Did you

19 voice any concern? You told us earlier that you were

20 very happy with everything about the HDZ. Did you

21 voice any concern about some of these extremely

22 unflattering things that are said about Mr. Kljuic?

23 For example -- excuse me, I don't mean to cut

24 you off before you answer, but let me just ask you in

25 connection with this question. Point number 3 of the

Page 18476

1 decisions --

2 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I believe

3 Mr. Naumovski has risen.


5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

6 I do apologise, but I feel the need to say this.

7 Mr. Arar said that he was in the HDZ, and he said that

8 he was vice-president of the municipal organisation of

9 the HDZ in Kiseljak. However, everything that he is

10 being asked now absolutely goes beyond the reasons why

11 Mr. Arar was brought here as a witness. Now he's being

12 asked about his opinions of Mr. Kljuic, Mr. Boban,

13 et cetera. This definitely goes beyond the direct

14 examination.

15 Mr. Arar said that he was one of the founders

16 of the HDZ. That's all. I don't see why one should go

17 this broadly. Thank you. I do apologise.

18 JUDGE MAY: It's relevant to credibility, but

19 no doubt it can be done as expeditiously as possible.

20 MS. SOMERS: I shall certainly try. Thank

21 you.

22 Q. May I just quickly quote to you:

23 "The behaviour of Stjepan Kljuic, president

24 of the HDZ-BiH, while conducting the session of the

25 HDZ-BiH main board on 6 August 1991, is judged as

Page 18477

1 unbefitting and unacceptable. He skilfully managed to

2 avert discussion on the decisions of Travnik Regional

3 Community, although his attention was several times

4 directed to the material on hand and the agenda

5 adopted."

6 And then following that it says: "We hereby

7 call on President Stjepan Kljuic to explain his

8 behaviour at a meeting of the HDZ-BiH presidency. The

9 explanation will then be passed --"

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please slow down.

11 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry.

12 Q. "The explanation will then be passed on to

13 the regional community." Did you consider yourself or

14 did you list yourself in any kind of vote among those

15 who said, "We hereby call on president Stjepan Kljuic

16 to do..." what I just read?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you voice any opposition in as much as

19 you told us that you were very happy with the HDZ? I

20 do not see opposition here. Did someone fail to write

21 down your opposing vote?

22 A. Well, I don't know about all of this here. I

23 wouldn't really comment too much about this. I really

24 do not know whether there were conflicts, and obviously

25 there were, according to this evidence. I think there

Page 18478

1 is nothing for me to say in relation to this. There

2 was no vote; that I know for sure. Replacements were

3 normal, as agreed by Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Stjepan

4 Kljuic.

5 Q. Do you know Martin Udovicic?

6 A. I do, but very superficially.

7 Q. You don't know him well enough to know, then,

8 that his name is listed at the bottom of the minutes as

9 well. Would it surprise you to learn that he also

10 didn't have any opposing vote cast or recorded -- I'm

11 sorry -- recorded, that he shared a very positive view

12 about Mr. Kljuic that you claim you had, and that his

13 opposition to this was not recorded either? Would that

14 surprise you?

15 A. No.

16 MS. SOMERS: Next exhibit, please, which

17 would be January 27th, 1992. I'm sorry. I beg your

18 pardon. 28 November, Z30.

19 Q. Mr. Arar, I do not know, in fairness, if you

20 were at this meeting, and that is not why I have this

21 exhibit in front of you. We do know that Ante Beljo,

22 from Zagreb, was at the meeting, but if you would turn

23 to item 2, point D, which in the English is on page 3.

24 It says: "A commission consisting of

25 Andjelka Stojic, Matilda Dragicevic, and Ivo Arar is

Page 18479

1 hereby appointed to take an inventory of the fixed

2 assets and small inventory in use as of 31 December

3 1991."

4 What type of inventory was this really? Can

5 you describe what you actually had to do? Did you

6 fulfil this task?

7 A. I fulfilled this task. These were two

8 computers, one photocopier, and then also inventory for

9 catering. This was at the headquarters of the HDZ in

10 Sarajevo.

11 MS. SOMERS: Next exhibit, please, Z41.

12 Q. Mr. Arar, these are minutes, or excerpts from

13 minutes of a meeting of the Travnik Subregional

14 Community of Herceg-Bosna from 27 January 1992, and I

15 see in the portion on the first page, where it says

16 "attended by", your name, it says: "Ivo Arar,

17 Kiseljak." Do you see that?

18 A. Exactly.

19 Q. Do you remember this meeting?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. What makes you remember this meeting over all

22 the other meetings that we've discussed? What took

23 place there that sticks out in your mind?

24 A. Because I went on behalf of Kiseljak, as the

25 vice-president of the HDZ, to attend this meeting.

Page 18480

1 Q. And at that meeting there were a number of

2 discussions, among them the upcoming referendum for BiH

3 independence. This meeting, of course -- let's see

4 now. Who signed off on this? This was signed off on

5 by Dario Kordic, with your friend Ignac Kostroman

6 taking the minutes. And one question I'd like to ask

7 you about, in point 6, please.

8 "We state that inter parte negotiations up

9 to now have been consciously obstructed by Stjepan

10 Kljuic, and this subregion ..." headed by Dario Kordic

11 -- that's parentheses, my comment, of course,

12 "... withdraws any right bestowed on him for

13 representing the party and the Croatian people."

14 Did you agree to this?

15 A. I do not recall.

16 MS. SOMERS: The next exhibit -- excuse me

17 one second -- a document which has not yet been

18 tendered, so I would ask for distribution, would be

19 Z252.

20 JUDGE MAY: It's apparently in the

21 outstanding exhibits.

22 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm

23 sorry for the confusion.

24 Q. Mr. Arar, this document, dated 24 October,

25 1992, is an informational document which summarises

Page 18481

1 some negotiations in Sarajevo, directed to the Mostar

2 Main Staff for Bozo Rajic and for the IPD, the

3 Information/Propaganda/Intel folks. Now, your name is

4 mentioned as being part of that delegation. Do you

5 remember being part of that delegation? At the bottom

6 it said: "The members of our delegation were," and it

7 has: "Tihomir Blaskic, Ignac Kostroman, Marko Prskalo,

8 Ante Sliskovic and Ivo Arar". Do you recall being

9 there on the 23rd of October?

10 A. I remember this document, but I did not

11 attend this. At that time, I was in Germany.

12 Q. How did your name get down there as being

13 present? Can you explain that?

14 A. Very gladly. This document was made five

15 days before I was supposed to go to Germany.

16 Q. I'm sorry. It was made five days before you

17 were supposed to go to Germany. But this records an

18 event that took place on the 23rd of October. Now,

19 when did you go to Germany?

20 A. I went on the 25th.

21 Q. So you're saying you weren't there, but your

22 name is here. Now, there were some significant things

23 that occurred. If you were not there and these things

24 are attributed to you as a member of the delegation,

25 did you write a letter to correct this, to show that

Page 18482

1 you were not a member of the delegation?

2 A. I didn't write anything.

3 Q. This was just -- did you hear about what

4 happened at this particular meeting where your

5 delegation demanded the removal, as a condition of any

6 further negotiations, the removal of Refik Lendo from

7 Novi Travnik? Were you aware of that, that your name

8 was under that suggestion?

9 A. I didn't hear a thing.

10 Q. Thank you. Excuse me just a minute.

11 You've indicated that as far as you know,

12 Dario Kordic never had any particular role in picking

13 the members of any military unit. Now, that was not an

14 area within one of your many competencies, was it? You

15 were not handling the selection of military persons,

16 were you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'm sorry. You were not handling them or,

19 yes, you were handling them?

20 A. No, no, no, it was not my duty.

21 Q. So you really don't know what Dario Kordic

22 may or may not have done about the selection of

23 anything; that was simply not part of your -- it was

24 not within your portfolio; correct? Is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 18483

1 Q. Now, Tisovac. There has been quite a bit of

2 evidence about where Mr. Kordic had his offices, and I

3 just wanted to ask you if you can indicate whether or

4 not a building called Sumarija, which is, I believe,

5 translated as "forestry office" -- is that correct? It

6 has to do with wood or forestry; is that right?

7 A. Incorrect.

8 Q. Would you explain that? Could you correct

9 me, please?

10 A. I can explain. The office of Mr. Dario

11 Kordic was in Tisovac, and it was called Plave Salon,

12 the Blue Parlour.

13 Q. But "Sumarija", what is that all about? What

14 does that actually mean? It's come up with a number of

15 UNPROFOR witnesses and members of the International

16 Community. What is a Sumarija?

17 A. Sumarija, that is a building. I don't know.

18 The brigade, Nikola Subic-Zrinjski, was located there.

19 Q. But the term refers to what type of

20 industry? Does it refer to farming, does it refer to

21 fire brigades; what type of industry is the Sumarija?

22 A. Sumarija, those are offices of the Sumarija.

23 How can I explain this to you? I don't know.

24 Q. Does that concern forestry, which is one of

25 the government industries, forestry? Just tell us,

Page 18484

1 please.

2 A. I guess so. I don't know.

3 Q. Mr. Arar, you are now living in Knin; is that

4 correct? That's what you said in your report?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. When was the last time you saw Ignac

7 Kostroman?

8 A. The last time I saw him, it was about two

9 months ago.

10 Q. Where did you see him?

11 A. I saw him in Knin.

12 Q. Is he living in Knin?

13 A. From time to time, yes.

14 Q. And from time to time, where else does he

15 live?

16 A. In Zagreb.

17 Q. Is his family with him?

18 A. Some are, others aren't, because one child

19 attends school in Zagreb, and another child is sick and

20 is in Zagreb in hospital, and one child and his wife

21 are in Knin.

22 Q. I would like to ask you about Germany. You

23 left Germany, you said, in 1980, but you also indicated

24 you've made trips back to Germany since. You indicated

25 you were on your way to Germany when the Mixed Military

Page 18485

1 Working Group session in '92 took place. What type of

2 activity did you engage in in Germany after you

3 returned to live permanently in Kiseljak?

4 A. I only went to Germany for private matters.

5 I have four brothers still living in Germany. I never

6 went to Germany to have meetings organised or something

7 like that. I went to Germany straight to see my

8 brothers.

9 Q. I'd like to ask you -- well, you yourself

10 mentioned meetings. I'm a little curious about that.

11 I hadn't said anything quite yet, but there is a

12 meeting of the -- the minutes of a meeting that I have

13 looked at and which I would be happy to put on the

14 ELMO. I'm not seeking to introduce it, by any

15 stretch. But it's from Stuttgart, and it's from the

16 9th of November, 1991, and it's a meeting of the

17 exiles, essentially, of the Croat emigres from Kresevo

18 and Kiseljak.

19 MS. SOMERS: May I ask the usher simply to

20 put it on the ELMO for all of us. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MAY: Now, Ms. Somers, how is this

22 going to assist us?

23 MS. SOMERS: The content of it, Your Honour.

24 I'm going to ask him about what he was doing in

25 Germany.

Page 18486

1 Q. Can you comment? Can you see it okay? Can

2 you just tell us what you were doing there? Were you

3 doing work on behalf of the HDZ-BiH when you were in

4 Germany? I'm looking actually at it looks like "G"

5 sort of in the middle of that page above the name --

6 well, your name is there. It says: "Ivo Arar from

7 Kiseljak, secretary of the HDZ." What were you

8 actually doing there?

9 A. I went to Germany with the intention to stay

10 with my brothers. I heard that presidents or

11 vice-presidents would come from three municipalities to

12 attend a meeting in Stuttgart. These are not emigres,

13 these are men who live and work there and who collect

14 money for the municipalities of Fojnica, Kiseljak and

15 Kresevo so that people could buy flour there. I heard

16 about that, and when they came, I went together with my

17 four brothers.

18 Q. Flour. "Flour" like for bread flour or

19 "flowers" like flowers?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm sorry, which one is it?

22 A. I don't understand your question.

23 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're going to get

24 much further with this.

25 MS. SOMERS: Okay.

Page 18487

1 JUDGE MAY: Now it's getting on to the time

2 for the adjournment, in any event. There's something I

3 want to ask.

4 Mr. Arar, you were asked questions about

5 these documents, and what essentially was being put was

6 this: that they tend to show or may show that you were

7 part of the leadership of the HDZ and that you weren't

8 simply a driver, an escort, for Mr. Kostroman, that you

9 were playing a larger part in political events. Now,

10 that's one possible interpretation of these documents.

11 Can you assist us as to what the reality was? Were you

12 simply a driver, an escort, or were you playing a part

13 in the politics?

14 A. My politics, the top rank I reached was

15 vice-president of the municipal HDZ in Kiseljak. And I

16 did two other jobs, driver and bodyguard for

17 Mr. Kostroman; nothing else. I have to say the truth

18 and nothing but the truth here.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now for

20 half an hour.

21 Ms. Somers, would you tailor your

22 cross-examination after the adjournment, please? The

23 witness isn't looking very well, and we need to finish

24 his evidence as soon as possible.

25 MS. SOMERS: Yes, absolutely.

Page 18488

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Arar, if you don't feel well

2 after the adjournment, let us know. But you've got a

3 break now for half an hour.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Arar, I understand you

7 weren't well during the adjournment. How are you

8 feeling now?

9 A. I'm all right. We can continue.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, we will ensure that it's

11 not for long.

12 Ms. Somers, given the circumstances, I don't

13 know if you were told that the witness was unwell

14 during the adjournment.

15 MS. SOMERS: I was not.

16 JUDGE MAY: That is the position we've been

17 told. I think we will try and curtail

18 cross-examination as much as possible. Is there

19 anything of importance which you ought to put?

20 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I

21 didn't mean to interrupt you. If I could respond to

22 your telling me about curtailing. There are some

23 important points. I am very sympathetic to the

24 physical condition, but I must, perhaps even in the

25 most brief way, raise certain points.

Page 18489


2 MS. SOMERS: And including issues from the

3 affidavits which are submitted. Now, because I speak

4 fast anyway, I can speak a little faster, and if the

5 interpreters can follow, we can go through those very

6 quickly, but they must be discussed. And there are

7 some very specific points about the checkpoint

8 incident. I will try to be brief, but I must emphasise

9 that this is very critical evidence.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, if you could come to

11 the checkpoint, I think, and deal with that quickly.

12 MS. SOMERS: If I can ask -- I was on the

13 tail of the last question about the Stuttgart document,

14 and I will quickly put it to the witness.

15 Q. Mr. Arar, there has been evidence given to

16 this Tribunal by a number of people, including Stjepan

17 Tuka, that Ignac Kostroman and Bruno Susnjar were

18 collecting money, were fund-raising for the HVO, or the

19 Herceg-Bosna, rather, effort, and that fund-raising was

20 aimed specifically at the purchase of weapons.

21 Tell us, please: What you were doing in

22 Stuttgart was related directly to fund-raising for the

23 purchase of weapons, as has been indicated by the

24 testimony to which I have referred; is that not

25 correct?

Page 18490

1 A. That is not correct.

2 Q. Looking at the incident in Kacuni at the

3 checkpoint, I'd like to get a little bit of a better

4 understanding about what you were doing in Travnik that

5 day. Now, you are a political person, as you have

6 admitted to this court, and as a political person, if

7 you were attending a meeting of the SDA and the HDZ in

8 Travnik, you should know the name of the president of

9 the SDA in Travnik. Can you tell us who that was,

10 please?

11 A. Your Honours, I did not attend the meeting.

12 I said that I was a vice-president of the HDZ in the

13 municipality of Kiseljak, but I was not present at the

14 meeting. I drove Mr. Ignac Kostroman to the meeting

15 and I waited for the meeting to end, and when it did,

16 we went home.

17 Q. Are you saying, then, that you, a

18 vice-president of the HDZ Kiseljak, went to a meeting

19 in a very volatile environment, which meeting was a

20 joint meeting of the SDA and the HDZ, and you waited

21 outside because you were driving; you were the escort?

22 Is that what you're telling us?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. And who was the head of the -- the

25 representative for the SDA in Travnik whom

Page 18491

1 Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Kordic were visiting? Name,

2 please.

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. You had never, in the course of dealing -- as

5 part of the Travnik Regional Community, you had never

6 had dealings with the SDA in Kiseljak?

7 A. I never had a meeting arranged with the SDA.

8 Q. I didn't ask you about a meeting; I asked you

9 for a name, the name of the head of the SDA in Travnik

10 with whom Mr. Kordic and Mr. Kostroman were meeting.

11 A. I've already told you: I do not know.

12 Q. Mr. Arar, you know that there are no meetings

13 at all of the SDA and the HDZ any time in 1993, were

14 there, in Travnik, none at all?

15 A. That's what you say, and I say that there was

16 a meeting.

17 Q. What was the address at which this meeting

18 that you dropped your friend and Mr. Kordic off? Can

19 you give us the address in Travnik, please?

20 A. The meeting was held in the building of

21 Sumarija of the forestry management.

22 Q. Are you familiar with the report by the

23 Spanish Battalion which, because it is in Spanish, I

24 will spare the Court at this point from having to deal

25 with the translation? It talks about the general

Page 18492

1 conditions in Central Bosnia on those days during the

2 period of time in question. Are you aware of the

3 tensions in Vitez and the tensions in Travnik?

4 A. I am not.

5 Q. You were not aware. And you drove through

6 the areas that were documented by the Spanish Battalion

7 as -- excuse my need to translate from Spanish, but

8 reading on the -- and I quote, you, and you can tell me

9 if you heard about this. It is a Spanish Battalion

10 document dated 23 January 1993, and it describes the

11 condition in Central Bosnia. It says: "On the 19th of

12 January, we were informed that Muslim civilians from

13 Vitez had been --" excuse me. "In Vitez, Travnik and

14 Novi Travnik, the HVO ordered the Bosnian, the

15 Bosniaks, to lay down their arms." And a subsequent

16 entry says: "In Travnik, those Bosnian refused to lay

17 down their arms, as ordered by the HVO."

18 Were you aware of the particular tension that

19 was existing during this time period on the 19th?

20 A. They did not.

21 Q. Was it your custom to check conditions,

22 before you escorted your friend and Mr. Kordic to a

23 place, for their own security?

24 A. For me, there was security, because the road

25 was not blocked anywhere. It is quite true that there

Page 18493

1 was some tension, a little, but mainly in Travnik

2 between Serbs on one side and us Croats and the Muslims

3 on the other, because at that time we had our joint

4 defence against Serbs. As for those in Novi Travnik, I

5 know nothing about laying down of weapons, I know

6 nothing about that.

7 Q. You mentioned in your evidence, or your

8 evidence was, that a roadblock or a checkpoint

9 appeared, you came across a checkpoint. When did you

10 first learn that the checkpoint at Kacuni had been

11 erected?

12 A. When I reached the checkpoint.

13 Q. Were you -- I'd just like to read you a

14 passage and actually show you and the Court Z391.2, a

15 milinfosum spanning from 15 to 21 January 1993. If I

16 may ask the usher to distribute it, please.

17 This milinfosum from UNPROFOR headquarters

18 covers the period -- it is a sitrep of all sectors

19 dated from 15 to 21 January, so the conditions

20 described herein are valid at least to the 21st of

21 January.

22 Turning to page 11, there are entries for 19

23 January, and then it is evident it is a typo. It says

24 "10 January", but it is couched between 19 and 21

25 January, so clearly it is the 20th of January. Entry

Page 18494

1 number 3: "Busovaca. BiH forces have set up a new

2 roadblock in Kacuni, south-east of Busovaca, on the

3 road from Kiseljak to Vitez." This condition existed

4 from at least the 20th of January, at least, and we

5 have had evidence that it existed earlier and was in

6 place until the end of the period covered by this

7 sitrep, which is the 21st of January, 1993. Can you

8 explain, please, the entry -- can you explain, please,

9 how you did not know about it?

10 A. I can. Every morning, Mr. Kostroman and I

11 would come to Busovaca from Kresevo, Kiseljak, and that

12 is one of the reasons which I can offer you to show

13 that there was no checkpoint. I do not really know

14 when was it that it happened to us, whether it was the

15 20th or the 21st. It was the first time that the

16 roadblock was erected, at least to my knowledge, as far

17 as I know. I affirm -- I contend that there were no

18 roadblocks before that.

19 Q. You seem now to be able to pin it down to the

20 20th or the 21st. May I ask you, how many times have

21 you been stopped at roadblocks with Mr. Kostroman where

22 he has been the object, as you say, of such action by

23 the BH army?

24 A. Well, about five times.

25 Q. So there are other incidents where

Page 18495

1 Mr. Kostroman has been stopped. And Mr. Kordic as

2 well, have you ever been stopped in the company of

3 Mr. Kordic on other occasions where the BH army has

4 made such --

5 A. No.

6 Q. I'm sorry? Did you hear my question, and

7 what was your answer?

8 A. "No." New question, please.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Arar, the description that

10 you gave of the order of --

11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] My

12 apologies. With your leave, Your Honours, I think the

13 transcript is not quite correct. The witness asked to

14 be repeated the question. I sit very near him. He did

15 not say, "New question," but he wanted the question to

16 be repeated.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's move on.

20 MS. SOMERS: I think it's been answered

21 satisfactorily. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.


24 Q. Mr. Arar, Defence counsel has presented today

25 a document, D214/1, which details an event occurring on

Page 18496

1 the 20th of January, and it appears it is at a

2 checkpoint, and are you aware whether -- is it

3 possible -- have you looked at the document? Is it

4 possible, after having read it, that there might have

5 been more than one incident on the 20th of January --

6 does that strike you as possible -- where this could

7 have happened?

8 A. I know only about the incident which happened

9 on the 20 and or the 21st. I cannot tell you exactly

10 when it did happen, whether it was the 20th or the

11 21st. As for other incidents, if there were any, I

12 really do not know anything about them.

13 Q. So you're not sure whether the document shown

14 by Defence counsel today discusses the incident which

15 we are discussing in this courtroom; is that what

16 you're saying?

17 A. And what do I answer to this question? I am

18 telling you, I had almost nothing to do with

19 documents. I was a simple driver who was ordered to go

20 somewhere and bring something back. That was the

21 description of my job.

22 Q. But we do agree that this document is crystal

23 clear about the date. It says "20 January", does it

24 not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18497

1 Q. Now, the summary which you submitted and the

2 evidence which you gave today says -- let me see now.

3 I don't want to get it wrong. Point 17 of your

4 summary: "On either January 20th or 21st, 1993." Do

5 you always have that -- allow for a gap of a day or so

6 when you plan things or when you make your schedule, or

7 have you ever missed an appointment because you thought

8 it was one day and it was the next?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE MAY: This is the sort of point --

11 you've made the point, Ms. Somers. It's the sort of

12 point which we can, in all circumstances, take

13 quickly. We have it.

14 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

15 Q. I'd like to ask you if you remember -- well,

16 some other persons who claim to have been at the scene

17 have submitted their versions of events, and I'd just

18 like to ask you if these sound correct to you, if I

19 could, please. They've done it in written form. They

20 have not come to court, for whatever reason.

21 Before I move on to that, I would like to

22 just ask you one quick question. Are you aware that on

23 the -- of critical issues occurring -- tensions

24 occurring in Busovaca on January 20th or 21st, where

25 the bank was blown up, the Privedna Bank was blown up

Page 18498

1 in the Muslim section?

2 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I think that the

3 bank explosion occurred in another place, not

4 Busovaca.

5 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, I meant "Vitez". I

6 beg your pardon. Correct.

7 Q. Are you familiar with that event?

8 A. No.

9 MS. SOMERS: I'd just like to take one quick

10 minute and ask the usher, unless it's in, Z386.1, to

11 just show this to you and see if it rings a bell.

12 Perhaps the usher might put it on the ELMO.

13 This is an announcement made by the executive

14 board of the SDA in Vitez, the same party that

15 Mr. Kordic and Mr. Kostroman, you claim, were visiting,

16 although that was in Travnik. And it simply says that:

17 "Last night in Vitez, 20 January 1993, at about 2200

18 hours, a very strong explosive device demolished the

19 offices of Privedna Banka in Travnik, located in

20 downtown Vitez, which is under the control of the HVO

21 formations." And it talks about: "The Muslim people in

22 our community are embittered by the pressure exerted on

23 them from brutal threats," and it moves on to describe

24 the fact that the Privedna Banka Zagreb, which is only

25 50 metres away, was left intact.

Page 18499

1 Q. Are you aware of this, all these events of

2 the 20th?

3 A. I'm not aware of this.

4 Q. Several affidavits were submitted, as I have

5 mentioned earlier, by persons by the name of Brano

6 Kristo, Milenko -- let me get his last name --

7 Arapovic, I think it is. Yes, Milenko Arapovic. And

8 the third one is -- sorry. I've got to try to get that

9 together -- Bogdan Santic. Do you know these names?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were these people who were supposedly

12 involved also in some way or another at the checkpoint

13 incident on the 20th of January at Kacuni?

14 A. I think that one -- no, two were, and the

15 third one was not. Franjo [as interpreted] Kristo was

16 not involved.

17 Q. Let me just tell you what one of them said,

18 and see if you can tell me if this is correct. And I

19 will try to go quickly. One of them said:

20 "On 20th or 21st January, 1993, I

21 accompanied Mr. Kordic and Mr. Kostroman as they were

22 attending talks with representatives of the SDA."

23 THE INTERPRETER: Would you slow down,

24 Ms. Somers, please.


Page 18500

1 Q. "We were returning from Travnik to Busovaca

2 through Busovaca through Vitez."

3 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me. I was just told

4 that -- I beg your pardon. The transcript says "Franjo

5 Kristo". It was Brano Kristo. If that can be

6 corrected. Thank you.

7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] With your

8 leave, the witness said he did not know Franjo Kristo,

9 that he was not there, because he understood that he

10 was being asked about Franjo Kristo.

11 JUDGE MAY: Now, let's get this straight.

12 Look, rather than doing it the other way around, what

13 the witness should be asked is positive questions.

14 Ms. Somers, don't read out part of the affidavit and

15 ask him to comment. He's merely commenting on what

16 somebody said. If there is a discrepancy, of course,

17 you can ask him about it.

18 MS. SOMERS: All right.

19 JUDGE MAY: Now, would you tell us, please,

20 Mr. Arar, who was in the cars and who was involved in

21 this incident which you've described at Kacuni on your

22 side.

23 A. There were myself, Mr. Kostroman, Mr. Miro

24 Musa, Milenko Arapovic, Damir Cosic, Brano, "Krezo." I

25 don't know his last name. I can't recall all names but

Page 18501

1 there were other people too. I don't really know all

2 the names.

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, you were asked earlier:

4 Was Franjo Kristo involved? What is the answer to

5 that?

6 A. He was not.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.


9 Q. Now, was Brano Kristo involved, if I can get

10 a clarification on that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm sorry for the confusion, Mr. Arar.

13 There is another name that appeared in the

14 document that was presented by Defence counsel, and I

15 will come to ask you about that name in a moment as

16 well.

17 Can you just tell us, please, how many

18 walkie-talkies were involved in the -- or Motorolas, if

19 you might call them that -- were involved in the

20 incident? Do you know? On the part of the HVO

21 personnel, who had a Motorola among your group?

22 A. Our group had two Motorolas.

23 Q. And who had them, please? Which persons?

24 A. I had one, and one was in the vehicle with

25 Mr. Dario Kordic.

Page 18502

1 Q. And which of the three names that you just

2 gave -- Kristo, Arapovic, or Santic -- was with Dario

3 Kordic?

4 A. With Dario Kordic, in Travnik, were both --

5 were also from the civilian police, except that I don't

6 know their names. And with Dario were Milenko Arapovic

7 and those other two. I can't remember the names.

8 Q. Who, according to your version of things, who

9 drove Mr. Kordic home? Which of the three were with

10 Mr. Kordic when he went home to Busovaca?

11 A. The car was driven by Milenko Arapovic, as

12 far as I know.

13 Q. And where was Brano Kristo? With whom was

14 he?

15 A. Brano Kristo, I don't know whose car he was

16 in. I don't know.

17 Q. Just tell me if this is correct. You said

18 there were two cars that came from the direction of

19 Busovaca to the checkpoint that you could see; is that

20 correct, two cars?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it possible that Brano Kristo was mistaken

23 when he said that "We immediately got into three cars

24 and headed towards Kacuni to help Mr. Kostroman" ? Is

25 that possible, that Brano Kristo, from Dario Kordic's

Page 18503

1 house in Busovaca, said, "We got into three cars"?

2 A. I don't know. I am not aware of that.

3 Q. Is it possible that he could have omitted the

4 threat by Dzemal --

5 JUDGE MAY: No. That again is a comment.

6 You can make these points to us, Ms. Somers, in due

7 course.

8 MS. SOMERS: Okay. Will do. I'd like, if I

9 may, with the Court's permission, just -- there are a

10 couple of points from the other two affidavits that I

11 think bear discussion and that should finish this.

12 Q. Do you recall offering the car that

13 Mr. Kostroman was in, do you recall offering it up to

14 the ABiH soldiers who were there, saying, "Take the car

15 and take the weapons"?

16 A. I do not recall that, and I did not do it.

17 We were stopped in a brutal way. That's the only thing

18 I remember. I cannot remember having given my car to

19 someone and also having given up on my friend

20 Kostroman, whom I've known all my life.

21 Q. Then is it possible that Bogdan Santic is

22 wrong when he -- excuse me -- when his statement is

23 that "I offered them --"

24 JUDGE MAY: No. That's a comment.

25 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry.

Page 18504

1 Q. Then you did not hear -- may I ask you: Did

2 you hear the comment? Did you hear a comment by Bogdan

3 Santic to the effect that: "I offered them his,"

4 meaning Kostroman's" car,and the weapons"? Did you

5 hear that made?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Where was the soldier who told you that

8 Dzemal Merdan ordered the detention?

9 A. He was in front of the car, opposite me. He

10 was a youngish boy of about 20.

11 Q. I want to make sure I understand. In the car

12 in which you were sitting, was any of the three names

13 mentioned, either Santic, Arapovic, or -- I'm sorry.

14 The third name escapes me all the time.

15 JUDGE MAY: Kristo.


17 Q. -- or Kristo present?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were any of the walkie-talkies used to try to

20 summon UNPROFOR assistance? Did you have a channel

21 that could reach anyone from UNPROFOR?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You did not have a channel, or you didn't use

24 the walkie-talkies for that purpose?

25 A. We did not have that kind of a

Page 18505

1 walkie-talkie. We had the smaller, more primitive

2 kind, only for short range use, from one vehicle to

3 another.

4 Q. But there was a communication that was

5 received in front of Mr. Kordic's house by one of the

6 persons who drove Mr. Kordic back, so that must have

7 been a longer range. Or am I wrong? They heard on the

8 walkie-talkies; is that correct? I'm sorry, what was

9 your answer?

10 A. Correct. These were walkie-talkies up to a

11 four- or five-kilometre range.

12 Q. Did anyone who had a walkie-talkie attempt to

13 summon either the police or any other armed units of

14 the HVO to respond to this incident?

15 A. I did not have the frequency. I could have

16 called the police, but I did not have the frequency

17 needed to call the military or civilian police. That

18 is why I only used this frequency, our frequency, the

19 one we used internally, we drivers who drove Dario

20 Kordic and Ignac Kostroman.

21 Q. Did you tell the BiH persons who stopped the

22 vehicles that you had just come from an SDA meeting in

23 Travnik?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you ask them to confirm this by radio or

Page 18506

1 in some other means, by some other means?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Why not?

4 A. Because I did not have the time to. There

5 was general chaos there, 35 to 40 armed men. As I said

6 a few minutes ago, they had long rifles and they kept

7 chanting, "Kill the Ustasha, kill the Ustasha." In

8 that chaos, I did not have the time to call my friend

9 and say, "What shall we do?"

10 Q. But you indicated that in this chaos, the BiH

11 personnel removed some of the mines and allowed

12 UNPROFOR vehicles to go through, so there was a time

13 lag, was there not?

14 A. Yes, for some. But as for our car, where

15 Mr. Ignac Kostroman was, the two of us drivers and the

16 co-driver, there were four soldiers who held us at

17 gunpoint [as interpreted]. We could not move, while

18 those who were removing mines from the road were doing

19 that so that UNPROFOR could pass.

20 Q. Did you notice any of the vehicles speeding

21 away behind the UNPROFOR convoy trucks to give them

22 cover? Any of your vehicles. Did anyone in your group

23 of cars use to its advantage --

24 A. [No translation].

25 Q. Did not notice it. I would like to ask you

Page 18507

1 something --

2 MR. SAYERS: If I might just interrupt. I

3 think there's a transcript error, Your Honour. My

4 Croatian-speaking colleague tells me that on page 62,

5 lines 6 and 7, what appears as "the two of us drivers

6 and the co-driver" should actually read, "the two of

7 us, the driver and the co-driver."


9 Q. Mr. Arar, do you know a person named Ivan

10 Jurman?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You indicated that UNPROFOR was the means by

13 which you were able to return to Tisovac from

14 Kiseljak. Does that mean that they were willing to

15 accommodate you because you, as a member of the HDZ,

16 needed to get back to do your work?

17 A. First of all, I, as a member of the HDZ, did

18 not go to Busovaca. I went there as Mr. Kostroman's

19 driver and bodyguard.

20 Secondly, I came with UNPROFOR. UNPROFOR had

21 a meeting at the barracks in Kiseljak. I came in front

22 of the barracks. I heard a man from Kiseljak speaking

23 German to UNPROFOR, using the German language. I

24 joined in. I asked, "Could I come with you to Vitez"

25 -- sorry -- "to Busovaca?" He said that he had to ask

Page 18508

1 his commander. We have to wait. I waited for an hour,

2 or about an hour and a half. When the meeting at the

3 barracks was over, and I never entered there, he asked,

4 "They just took my name and surname and they said that

5 it was all right." We went via Visoko, to Lasva, and

6 then we entered Busovaca through Kacuni. They could

7 not pass.

8 Q. Mr. Arar, there has been evidence in this

9 Chamber that on the 20th of January, 1993, Dario Kordic

10 and Ignac Kostroman were in fact in Fojnica at a

11 meeting of the HVO. It is a document, excuse me. It

12 was submitted to this Chamber. Can you comment on

13 that, please?

14 A. My comment is that this is incorrect.

15 Q. The document which was provided by the

16 Defence, Z214.1, if you could take a look at it,

17 please. It was the report from 23rd of January, 1993.

18 Look at the first page, please, where it says -- the

19 beginning it says: "On the 20th of January, 1993." I

20 just want to establish the order of events --

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, what are you going

22 to interrupt about? This constant interruption makes

23 the flow of the evidence difficult, and also it -- we

24 have a witness here who really is not well. Now,

25 unless you've got something really pertinent to say,

Page 18509

1 let's not waste any more.

2 Mr. Arar, are you feeling all right?

3 A. It's all right.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for

5 Mr. Naumovski, please.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I didn't want

7 to intervene, Your Honour, I just wanted to say that

8 there was a Croatian version, and he's looking at the

9 first page in English and he doesn't speak English. So

10 that's only what I wanted to say by way of assistance.

11 Thank you, and I do apologise.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


14 Q. On the Croatian version, which is also on

15 page 1, the order of events as is summarised in this

16 document, which, by the way, is written by Pasko

17 Ljubicic -- do you know Pasko Ljubicic?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. It summarises the following: I have it in

20 sort of an A, B, C fashion. "A" would be: "On the 20th

21 of January, there were first the Muslim forces at the

22 checkpoint," and that is at Kacuni, which is in the

23 Busovaca municipality. "B": "Half an hour --" I'm

24 sorry. Then there were some events after the

25 checkpoint incident, which was described, up to the

Page 18510

1 line which says: "The checkpoint was removed." It then

2 talks about incidents subsequent, about a bomb being

3 thrown at HVO soldiers and two soldiers sustaining

4 minor injuries, with detonations heard all over town

5 and members of the BH army being disarmed. And then it

6 talks about the devastation to Muslim property that

7 night, again as a follow-on to point A. And the third

8 point, "C", is that: "Mirsad" -- it said "Delic", but

9 it is "Delija" --"got killed on that night. These are

10 the events that grew out of the checkpoint incident."

11 Is that how you see it? ? Do you agree that that is

12 the incident -- it is written in such a way that these

13 show the flow of events and the connection of events,

14 is that correct, the way Mr. Ljubicic wrote that?

15 A. As regards this document, I truly apologise

16 but I cannot interpret this document in any way. I

17 really do not know what these events were like.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, I think that's

19 sufficient.


21 Q. Mr. Arar, one final point I would like to ask

22 you.

23 All the versions, all the versions of this

24 story about the checkpoint and about people feeling the

25 need to explain the presence or absence of Dario

Page 18511

1 Kordic, all of these arose after the death of

2 Mr. Delija; is that correct?

3 A. That is not correct. First of all, I don't

4 even know when Delija was killed.

5 Q. Well, it appears that, from this document, it

6 says that night, so that would be the night of the

7 20th. The territory of Kacuni, was that territory

8 which you and your colleagues viewed to be part of

9 Herceg-Bosna, Croatian territory?

10 A. We Croats believed that Bosnia was ours all

11 together. We voted for it together at the first

12 referendum. And there is nothing else I can say by way

13 of a comment.

14 Q. Now, that group at the checkpoint represented

15 a significant number of high-ranking HVO or HDZ

16 officials. Did you feel offended by being detained by

17 the ABiH? Were you angry about this incident?

18 A. I don't understand the question.

19 Q. Were you angry that you got stopped by the

20 ABiH at a point in Kacuni? Did it upset you?

21 A. No, it was not that I was angry. I was

22 terrified, because it was my life that was at stake and

23 my friend's life, both one and the other. I had no

24 time to think and to be angry.

25 Q. Did you have time to think about it later and

Page 18512

1 did it make you angry?

2 A. I'm never angry. I was never angry at these

3 young men, because these young men were led by people

4 who were extremists a bit, people in that army who were

5 in charge and who were a bit extreme.

6 Q. Was Mr. Kostroman angry or upset about it?

7 A. Less than I.

8 Q. And according to your version of things, what

9 was Mr. Kordic's reaction to it?

10 A. I cannot comment about that. You can ask

11 Mr. Kordic about that.

12 Q. Is it not true, Mr. Arar, that the various

13 versions, including your own, of this account were

14 necessary to give some form of justification to the

15 fact that at this checkpoint where Dario Kordic was

16 with you and Mr. Kostroman, things happened, things

17 happened that made Mr. Kordic very, very angry, and he

18 made comments about someone paying for it? These

19 comments were overheard by a number of people, but your

20 group was also implicated there, high-ranking people in

21 your party. I want to just continue. Tell me if I'm

22 completely wrong, please. And when the events of the

23 evening, the murder of Mr. Delija, the brother of the

24 man who stopped Mr. Kordic and Mr. Kostroman at the

25 checkpoint, when that happened, you didn't expect it

Page 18513

1 and it was a very inconvenient fact, was it not, that

2 all of you HVO executives who were at the checkpoint

3 found yourselves, having been there, implicated in a

4 murder not of a group of unidentified people in

5 villages who are killed by shells which the HVO was

6 wont to do, but --

7 JUDGE MAY: You really must come to a

8 question.

9 MS. SOMERS: May I just focus it to a

10 question.

11 Q. But that there was a discreet person

12 identifiable who was killed as a result of Mr. Kordic's

13 rage. Is this what this is all about; "yes" or "no"?

14 "Yes" or "no"?

15 JUDGE MAY: If you didn't follow the

16 question, just say so.

17 THE INTERPRETER: He was waiting for the

18 translation.

19 A. First of all, Mr. Kordic was not with us at

20 this checkpoint where we were stopped. As for the

21 rest, I cannot comment upon that for you. I'm sorry,

22 but I really cannot. That is what I wish to say.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mrs. Somers,

24 don't you see that this type of questions or comments

25 do not help us? You really should focus on facts. If

Page 18514

1 you try to be more concise. But I am afraid that you

2 are not doing it properly. Will you please try to be

3 concise in your cross-examination.

4 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise

5 that it was a defuse question, but the point of it, of

6 course, was to allow the inferences to be drawn that I

7 think come out of today's examination.

8 I have no further questions. Thank you.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But we still

10 have not reached a conclusion. We are still in

11 cross-examination, and that is a different thing.

12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. I'm finished with

13 this cross. Thank you.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

15 just one question. I see that Mr. Arar is unwell, so I

16 don't want to --

17 Re-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

18 Q. Mr. Arar, just one more question. Let it be

19 quite clear. At this checkpoint that was erected at

20 Kacuni, you say on that day when you stopped there,

21 when you just came along -- in January, was

22 Mr. Kostroman, together with you and Mr. Musa, stopped

23 only once or several times?

24 A. I assert, with full responsibility, only

25 once.

Page 18515

1 Q. And that is what you describe now?

2 A. That is what I described, and I assert -- and

3 I'm saying the truth -- that Mr. Dario Kordic was not

4 with us at that time at the checkpoint.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

6 Mr. Arar, and thank you for having managed this

7 questioning. Thank you.

8 No further questions, Your Honours.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

10 Honours.

11 JUDGE MAY: You're free to go. Thank you for

12 coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence,

13 Mr. Arar.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too,

15 sir.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The next witness.

18 MR. SAYERS: The next witness, Your Honour,

19 is Bruno Santic, and let me just say for the record

20 that we have filed today an affidavit of his brother,

21 Leonard Santic, on the very narrow point or in

22 corroboration of the very narrow point on which he

23 speaks, and I would expect that the direct examination

24 would not last more than five or ten minutes.

25 Actually, Your Honour, may I take the

Page 18516

1 opportunity, while the witness is being brought in,

2 just to ask the court reporter to check page 66, line

3 23. Mr. Arar said the word "together", I believe, and

4 not "altogether" when he was talking about the

5 referendum. He said that, "We Croats viewed the state

6 as ours together with the Muslims," not "altogether",

7 so I would just like the court reporter to check that,

8 please.

9 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure it's a very real

10 distinction, but it can be done.

11 MR. SAYERS: It may not be.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. May we have the witness,

13 please.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

16 declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

18 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

19 and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Examined by Mr. Sayers:

25 Q. Good morning, sir. Would you please state

Page 18517

1 your full name for the Court, please?

2 A. My name is Bruno Santic. I was born on the

3 24th of November, 1970, in Donja Rovna, municipality of

4 Busovaca.

5 Q. All right, Mr. Santic. Let me just take you

6 through some preliminary information fairly quickly.

7 It's the case, I believe, that you are

8 married. You and your wife currently have two

9 children?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you and your family live in Donja Rovna;

12 is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I believe, Mr. Santic, that you have

15 lived in Donja Rovna all of your life.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I think that you joined the Croatian Defence

18 Council, the HVO, in April of 1992, sir. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct. I joined the HVO in

21 April 1992.

22 Q. All right. And from May to October of 1992,

23 I believe that you were a member of a unit of the HVO

24 in Busovaca known as the Reconnaissance and Commando

25 Group. Is that correct?

Page 18518

1 A. Yes, that is correct. I was a member of the

2 IDG between May and October '92. It was called

3 Intervention Commando Group, an HVO unit in Busovaca.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Santic, could you tell Their Honours

5 how you came to join this group?

6 A. I joined that unit of my own will. Nobody

7 brought me to that unit, apart from myself.

8 Q. Did members of the IDG unit consist of

9 volunteers or not?

10 A. They were volunteers, yes.

11 Q. All right. And --

12 A. And so was I.

13 Q. All right, Mr. Santic. Is it accurate to say

14 that you did not receive any special military training

15 beyond basic training for defensive operations, but

16 that you did receive some hand-to-hand combat

17 instruction because your commander was a martial arts

18 specialist?

19 A. Yes, that is 100 per cent correct.

20 Q. All right. Mr. Santic, was there any special

21 selection procedure for membership in the IDG, as far

22 as you were aware?

23 A. No. Anybody who wanted could volunteer for

24 the IDG, like myself.

25 MR. SAYERS: All right. Your Honour, may I

Page 18519

1 request that we go into private session for just a few

2 minutes? Thank you.


4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18520

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

23 Q. Now, sir, one person who has testified in

24 this case, Witness U, has claimed that you supposedly

25 told him that you were specially selected for

Page 18521

1 membership in the IDG by Mr. Dario Kordic. What do you

2 say to that? Is that accurate or not, sir?

3 A. That is not accurate, that Dario Kordic sent

4 me to join the Intervention Unit. That is not

5 accurate. I joined the Intervention Commando Unit, the

6 IDG, of my own volition.

7 Q. All right, sir. Have you ever heard of the

8 IDG, or any other unit, referred to as the Dario Kordic

9 Special Unit or Kordic's Special Unit?

10 MR. SAYERS: And Your Honours, just for the

11 transcript, that's page 10.224.

12 Q. What do you say to that, Mr. Santic? Have

13 you ever heard either of those terms used while you

14 were serving with the HVO throughout the civil war?

15 A. No, I have never heard that.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. That Mr. Kordic had a unit of his own, that

18 is not correct.

19 Q. Have you ever heard that Mr. Kordic had any

20 military power at all or could select -- and that he

21 could select people for membership in units such as the

22 IDG, sir?

23 A. As far as I know, Mr. Kordic did not have

24 such authority, because he was at a political level,

25 rather.

Page 18522

1 Q. All right. And have you ever told anybody

2 that he handpicked you for membership in the unit, the

3 IDG unit?

4 A. No, nobody.

5 Q. Just a couple of final questions,

6 Mr. Santic. Did members of the IDG unit in which you

7 served ever fulfil the functions of guarding political

8 or military leaders or serving as their escorts?

9 A. As far as I know, they did not, or at least

10 until I was with the IDG, until October, that was not

11 the case.

12 Q. Have you personally ever acted as an escort

13 to a military or political leader of any type?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Have you ever acted as an escort for

16 Mr. Kordic?

17 A. No, never. I hardly knew Mr. Kordic, let

18 alone escorted him. I knew him by means of radio and

19 television, and that about sums it up.

20 Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Kordic

21 face-to-face in a direct person-to-person conversation?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, sir, Witness U also claims that he saw

24 you wearing a uniform with the insignia of the army of

25 the Republic of Croatia upon it. What do you have to

Page 18523

1 say to that?

2 A. That is not true. I was never a member of

3 the army of the Republic of Croatia, nor did I wear the

4 emblem of the Croatian army.

5 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much indeed,

6 Mr. Santic. No further questions. But if you stay

7 there, you may be asked some by Mr. Kovacic, who

8 represents Mr. Cerkez, the other defendant in this

9 case, or by the Prosecution.

10 Thank you very much, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

12 Q. Since you mentioned it, I am the Defence

13 lawyer for the accused Cerkez. Let us perhaps clarify,

14 since you mentioned it.

15 In 1992, 1993, in the Lasva Valley, were

16 there any soldiers at all that you saw wearing some

17 other insignia on the uniforms apart from HVO insignia?

18 A. No, I never saw that.

19 Q. You never saw any of that?

20 A. I did not.

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very

22 much.

23 That is all, Your Honours. I have no other

24 questions.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

Page 18524

1 Q. I just have a few questions for you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]


4 Q. I just have a few questions for you. Just

5 remind us or confirm for us that Santici and Ahmici and

6 the village where you live are all very close,

7 together, aren't they?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. They're effectively one community?

10 A. Well, Santici and Ahmici, yes, but Busovaca

11 is not with them, because there's Donja Rovna,

12 municipality of Busovaca.

13 Q. Quite. Busovaca is separate, but the little

14 villages are all one community. And Ahmici and

15 Santici, which are separated by a river or a stream,

16 are what, about five kilometres from Busovaca?

17 A. Well, about ten.

18 Q. That town being a small town at the time,

19 probably totalling no more than about 20.000 people.

20 Would you accept that?

21 A. Yes, I would.

22 Q. You have known Witness U, who simply lived

23 across the river or stream in the other bit of the

24 community, all your life; correct?

25 A. I do not know whether Witness U spent all his

Page 18525

1 life there. I wouldn't say so. And I knew him

2 -- well ...

3 Q. And you knew him well to talk to from time to

4 time, and so on? Yes?

5 A. No -- yes, I did know him, but I never talked

6 to him.

7 Q. Are you saying you never talked to him at

8 all, didn't even pass the time of day with him?

9 A. I did. I talked more to his brother, because

10 his brother was a little older, perhaps my peer, and he

11 was younger, so I just don't remember that I ever

12 talked to him about anything.

13 MR. NICE: I don't know, incidentally, if the

14 Court is assisted by being reminded what witnesses look

15 like. This witness doesn't need to be reminded what

16 somebody he knows looks like, but if it helps you to

17 know what a witness looks like, I can make a picture

18 available to you.

19 If it could be brought up discreetly by the

20 usher, please, and returned to me in due course.

21 Sometimes it makes the evidence fresher, I

22 think.

23 Just for the Judges, please. Thank you very

24 much.

25 Q. Now, this young man, was there anything in

Page 18526

1 the history of what passed between you and him, or the

2 history of what passed between even his brother and

3 you, that could have led to resentment on their parts?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You joined this particular force, you say, in

6 May of 1992.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is there any documentation recording your

9 induction into the force that will show, if you were

10 introduced by anybody, by whom you were introduced,

11 anything like that?

12 A. I do not know if there is any documentation,

13 but I brought myself to that unit, to the IDG.

14 Q. You say that you left it in October. What

15 were you doing between October of 1992 and January of

16 1994?

17 A. We had village patrols in the village. That

18 was reserve force.

19 Q. And so you were still an active member of the

20 HVO in the Busovaca area?

21 A. Yes, but with the reserve force.

22 Q. And you were, therefore, in the HVO and in

23 the area at the time of, for example, Ahmici?

24 A. I was in my village, with village -- doing

25 guard duty in the village.

Page 18527

1 Q. As a member of the HVO in this extremely

2 small community, you must have heard what happened in

3 Ahmici.

4 A. I did not hear that straight away. I heard

5 it three or four days later.

6 Q. And as a member of the HVO, you will have

7 heard from other members of the HVO what happened in

8 Ahmici and Santici; correct?

9 A. I did not hear it from troops, from soldiers;

10 I heard it from my relatives who had fled from Ahmici

11 to our village.

12 Q. And later -- help me if I'm wrong -- you will

13 have got more information of this extraordinary and

14 terrible event from villagers and from other members of

15 the HVO defence, as you describe them.

16 A. I got that information later, perhaps some

17 five or six days later.

18 Q. Well, now, you know that Witness U goes

19 simply by the name of "Witness U", and it may be that

20 you should have in mind that nothing that you learn

21 about Witness U in this hearing must be mentioned

22 outside it. But you know that Witness U suffered a

23 terrible family disaster on that night, don't you?

24 A. I did not hear that, because those relatives

25 who came to our place, they --

Page 18528

1 THE INTERPRETER: We are sorry. We did not

2 get the end of the sentence.

3 A. They were not aware of where Witness U was

4 from.

5 MR. NICE: I think it would be safer if we

6 went into private session for a few questions.


8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18529

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I can certainly

17 finish by the adjournment, if you're a little flexible

18 with a few minutes, I think. I forecast how the

19 questioning is going to go, but I want to give the

20 witness an opportunity.

21 Q. Is it your case, please, that the HVO did not

22 commit any crimes or do anything wrong on the night of

23 Ahmici, at Ahmici or in Santici? Is that what you're

24 telling us?

25 A. I cannot tell you anything about it, because

Page 18530

1 I do not know, because I was not there.

2 Q. Mr. Santic, don't be under any illusion. If

3 you only learnt of details of what happened by what

4 other people told you, subject to the Judges taking a

5 different view, we'll be able to hear what you say.

6 Now, from what other people told you, are you telling

7 us that the HVO did nothing wrong on the night of the

8 Ahmici killings?

9 A. I cannot say anything, because I did not hear

10 anything so that I could say something.

11 Q. Can you give any explanation -- you say you

12 were told, days later, by villagers. Can you give us

13 any explanation, please, so that we can follow it, of

14 what happened in Ahmici?

15 A. I can't. I'm not -- I was just a simple

16 soldier, and it's not my place to comment anything.

17 Q. Being a simple soldier, or being a soldier,

18 is one thing, but you're here to give the truth, the

19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Your community

20 of a kilometre or so across suffered an attack that

21 received worldwide attention and was discussed by

22 villagers. I'd like you, please, to tell the Judges

23 what, on your understanding, happened.

24 A. A war between Muslims and Croats. That's

25 what happened.

Page 18531

1 Q. Are you really not in a position to give any

2 more detail of what happened in your own community when

3 over a hundred people were killed? Please,

4 Mr. Santic.

5 A. I can't give you any documents and I can't

6 say anything. I was just a simple and plain soldier.

7 And at that time I was with village guards in my

8 village.

9 Q. Nenad Santic, a man known to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. HVO boss of the local area; would that be

12 right?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Is it right that young men were told by Elmir

15 [phoen] Ahmic always to say "hello" and "good morning"

16 to Nenad Santic?

17 A. I don't know. I've heard it from you.

18 Q. The unit for which you worked, headed by

19 Mirko, is that right, Cosic?

20 A. Mirko Cosic.

21 Q. I apologise for the pronunciation. Mirko

22 Cosic.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you keep up with Mirko Cosic after you

25 left his unit?

Page 18532

1 A. No, never after that.

2 Q. Did you hear of his being involved in Ahmici?

3 A. No. I don't know. I heard nothing.

4 Q. Not a word. Are you not in a position to

5 name one person from the HVO who took an active part in

6 the Ahmici incident? Is that your position, please,

7 Mr. Santic?

8 JUDGE MAY: I think he's been asked enough

9 now about that.

10 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases, in which

11 case I will move on to the last questions that I have

12 to ask him of the limited number.

13 Q. This group that you joined, what was special

14 about it? It seems to have been in some way a

15 particular group. What was its functions?

16 A. Well, its speciality was defence and martial

17 arts, because our commander, Mirko Cosic, was very well

18 trained in martial arts, and that is how he became

19 that, and so we ...

20 Q. That means, of course, hand-to-hand combat?

21 A. No. No. It wasn't only for fighting; it was

22 also for our personal needs, because nobody forced us

23 in IDG for any special training, but whatever we would

24 suggest, so we would impose that obligation on

25 ourselves.

Page 18533

1 Q. Martial arts would be particularly useful for

2 people offering personal protection to military leaders

3 or political leaders, wouldn't it, because it means

4 they would be able to deal with individuals who might

5 suddenly turn up and be aggressive or attack them?

6 A. Yes, they can. Why not?

7 Q. You were in Busovaca. Mr. Kordic always

8 travelled with an escort of armed guards, didn't he?

9 A. No, that is not correct. I met Mr. Kordic on

10 a couple of occasions, and it could have been in the

11 street, just like that, in civilian clothes or perhaps

12 in a uniform; it depended. And on television. And

13 that I saw him with some uniformed men, armed men, to

14 stand guard for him, no, I did not do that.

15 Q. So you can't help us at all with who were his

16 bodyguards, if it wasn't your group?

17 A. I don't know, but it was not our group, for

18 our group did not guard any military or political

19 person. As far as I know, Mr. Kordic was more on the

20 political stage, and he did not need any guards.

21 Q. Your brother's affidavit informs us that you

22 told your brother that the IDG had provided no special

23 training for you and that you had received only basic

24 military training. When did you tell your brother

25 that?

Page 18534

1 A. Well, when I was with the IDG. Must have

2 been then.

3 Q. Why would it be necessary suddenly to say to

4 your brother, "By the way, the IDG has given me no

5 special training"? Or is the position that you told

6 him that more recently?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The same affidavit of your brother -- and

9 this is the last question I'm going to ask about it --

10 incorporates this sentence: "IDG members did not guard

11 political or military leaders, and never served as

12 their escorts. My brother Bruno told me this

13 himself." When did you tell him that? When did you

14 say to your brother, "We didn't guard political or

15 military leaders"? When did you tell him that?

16 A. I told him at the time when I was with the

17 IDG and now too, when I saw him.

18 Q. You see the problem, don't you? There would

19 be no need to say to somebody, "This is what we don't

20 do. " So I'm suggesting to you that what your brother

21 has here, "Bruno told me this," is something you've

22 told him only recently. Is that possibly true?

23 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

24 Q. Yes, of course. Where your brother says that

25 you told him you didn't guard political leaders, is

Page 18535

1 that something that you may have only told him

2 recently, arising, indeed, from this litigation, from

3 this case?

4 A. No. I told him that even before.

5 Q. Were you bragging when you said to Witness U

6 that you had been hand-picked by Kordic and

7 bodyguarding him?

8 A. No. I did not discuss these matters with

9 that person.

10 Q. Maybe that was the truth and you were,

11 indeed, a bodyguard for a short period of time, even if

12 you were dispensed with?

13 A. No, that is not true, no way, and you can

14 take my word for it.

15 Q. You've seen no records, in the course of

16 preparation for coming to give evidence here, setting

17 out what your unit's duties --

18 A. No.

19 Q. -- and functions were in 1992?

20 MR. NICE: I don't have to cross-examine on

21 all details, Your Honour. I --

22 A. No, I did not.

23 MR. NICE: Just before --

24 A. I did not see any documents.

25 MR. NICE: Excuse me for the impertinence of

Page 18536

1 my standing again. But before I sit down, I ask that

2 the Chamber might have in mind the possibility of a

3 warning in relation to the particular delicate nature

4 of these proceedings.

5 MR. SAYERS: No further questions, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Santic, thank you for coming

8 to the Tribunal. That concludes your evidence, and

9 you're free to go.

10 Would you please remember what you were told,

11 not to mention anything about what the witness you had

12 heard about said in these proceedings. Apart from

13 that, you're free to go.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE MAY: Now, there's something which the

17 Defence want to raise. I note it is now five past

18 1.00. There is, I understand, a matter which the

19 Prosecution want to raise ex parte.

20 MR. NICE: Arising from yesterday's matters.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we're not going to be

23 able to deal with all of that now. It's now five past

24 1.00, so we'll have to have a hearing this afternoon.

25 How long will it take to deal with the Defence matter?

Page 18537

1 MR. SAYERS: There are two matters, Your

2 Honour. The first is a request for judicial notice

3 under Rule 94A, and it is that Dr. Ante Starcevic died

4 in 1895.

5 JUDGE MAY: If that is disputed, no doubt the

6 Prosecution can put it in, but we will --

7 MR. NICE: I'm pretty sure it won't be

8 disputed.

9 JUDGE MAY: We will take note of that.

10 MR. SAYERS: Very well. And the second

11 matter, I don't know whether the Court has been alerted

12 to this, but it is in connection with the Defence

13 efforts to try to --

14 JUDGE MAY: This is the audiotape?

15 MR. SAYERS: Yes, indeed.

16 JUDGE MAY: Sorry to interrupt. Yes, we

17 understand that the position is that you've requested

18 the original. Is that to show to your expert; is that

19 the purpose of it?

20 MR. SAYERS: Well, actually, we didn't

21 request the original. We've been trying to get a copy

22 of what is in the exhibit that's in the Court's file,

23 and we've been trying for a month. And we have been

24 told that, well, first you have to do this, that, and

25 the other thing, and we've done that. Then we were

Page 18538

1 told that, "You can only make a copy of this tape in

2 the Evidence Unit in the Office of the Prosecutor, not

3 through the Registry."

4 We found out yesterday that apparently the

5 original of this audiotape isn't even in the building.

6 It's been sent out for an independent analysis by the

7 Office of the Prosecutor, as we understand it, without

8 alerting us, without seeking permission from the Court

9 and, as far as I know, without even alerting the Court,

10 and I have to say that it's absolutely staggering for

11 evidence to be removed from the Registry, especially

12 evidence of this type. I've never heard of such a

13 thing.

14 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MAY: Well, if we could deal with this

17 as expeditiously as we can. What do you want? I mean,

18 I'll find out from the Prosecution what the position

19 is, why the exhibit has gone without leave. What is it

20 you want, a copy?

21 MR. SAYERS: Well, we wanted a digital copy

22 of the original audiotape, and that's what we wanted.

23 But it looks to me like -- I mean, I think that our

24 witness, our expert witness, Dr. Koenig, would like to

25 take a look at the original audiotape in due course

Page 18539

1 when we can get him over here. But at the very

2 minimum, we would like to have an accurate digital copy

3 of the audiotape, which I mean I'm not even sure what

4 tape is in evidence, in all candour, Your Honour. I

5 mean is the -- I assume that there are some tapes in

6 the Registry and those are what, indeed, are evidence.

7 The original, however, is not in the Registry. It's a

8 peculiar situation. I'm somewhat at a loss.

9 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to ask the Prosecution

10 about this. First of all, Mr. Sayers is absolutely

11 right, that the original exhibit should not have left

12 the building without leave.

13 MR. NICE: I'm not sure what processes were

14 gone through whereby it was released for the purpose of

15 being sent to the Dutch laboratory, which is where it's

16 gone. My understanding was that all proper procedures

17 went through in accordance with what normally happens.

18 I have to pursue that a little bit and find out the

19 detail of it.

20 JUDGE MAY: It may be that we were approached

21 and gave leave, but I have no recollection of it.

22 MR. NICE: I'll have to find out a bit more

23 about that.

24 In any event, it's gone to the Dutch

25 laboratory, which has the facilities for making this

Page 18540

1 kind of digital copy that Mr. Sayers wanted. Indeed,

2 that's one of the reasons it went there, obviously.

3 There is no reason why it shouldn't come back

4 forthwith.

5 JUDGE MAY: Plus a copy.

6 MR. NICE: Plus a copy.

7 We have, I think, yesterday -- I haven't

8 followed all the twists and turns of this, but we have

9 already offered, I think, a Dutch laboratory digital

10 copy to the Defence if we can get one from them.

11 Perhaps we haven't, but they can certainly provide one,

12 I believe. And I'm informed that the Evidence Unit

13 here is also now -- or it may be even the Audio-Visual

14 Unit here is now able to produce digital copies itself,

15 and the Audio-Visual Unit is not serving only the OTP;

16 it serves the Court and all sides.

17 So one way or another, a digital copy can be

18 provided as soon as may be and the tape can be brought

19 back, and we'll check on what happened that led to its

20 release.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we shouldn't gloss

22 over this lapse, that is, the removal of an exhibit

23 without the permission of the Court. I mean, it goes

24 to the question of custody, and who knows what might

25 have happened to the original when it was sent. I

Page 18541

1 wouldn't want us to gloss over it at all. It's a very,

2 very serious matter and, in my view, almost potentially

3 contemptible.

4 MR. NICE: I'm not glossing over it at all.

5 As I understand, appropriate steps were taken at the

6 time to release the document in accordance with

7 whatever the practices are. The laboratory to which

8 it's gone, which is the laboratory, I think, that's

9 been used before in this institution and which I think,

10 indeed, had some training at an early stage of this

11 institution's life from an American laboratory, has a

12 chain of custody record of the exhibit, and that can,

13 no doubt, be made available. But I'll pursue the

14 matter with as much -- in as much detail as is

15 required.

16 JUDGE MAY: I mean, it seems to me the

17 sensible conclusion that we will find out what the

18 procedures are under which the tape left the building.

19 If they are procedures which were in place at the time

20 which did not involve requesting the permission of the

21 Trial Chamber, then those procedures must be promptly

22 amended.

23 As far as the particular tape is concerned,

24 what I would suggest is within seven days the Defence

25 are to be provided with a copy, a digital copy, as

Page 18542

1 requested, and that they are, in due course, to have

2 facilities for their expert to see the original.

3 MR. SAYERS: May I just say, Mr. President,

4 that we have been working with the Registry, which we

5 found to be most cooperative, over the last month or

6 so. Far rather than the tape having been removed for

7 the purpose of making a digital copy to be turned over

8 to us, we had the technical people -- the Tribunal's

9 technical people ready in the Evidence Unit yesterday

10 actually to make a copy of this tape, and we were

11 informed that -- for the first time that the Registry

12 had found out that the tape had gone.

13 And I think -- I mean, I want to look into

14 this, obviously, and not go off precipitately, but I

15 think that the concerns that were raised by one of the

16 Bench are concerns that are extremely serious, and we

17 take them seriously. And I think that those need to be

18 looked at very closely, and we intend to try to do

19 that. But we appreciate Your Honour's ruling that at

20 least we'll get a copy of, I assume, the original

21 within seven days. That's highly appreciated.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, unless there are

23 any other matters to be dealt with in open court, we'll

24 adjourn now and sit ex parte at 3.00, and the case

25 itself is adjourned until Monday at half past 9.00.

Page 18543

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

2 1.15 p.m., to be followed by and Ex

3 Parte Hearing























Page 18544