Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19440

1 Wednesday, 24 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Cont'd]

10 Q. Yesterday, you produced a number of exhibits,

11 D223, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, I think, and so on, reflecting

12 what happened between June and October of 1992.

13 Perhaps you could just have a look at one of them for

14 me, please, D223/1.

15 MR. NICE: If we can put the English version

16 on the ELMO.

17 Q. This is a typed document, as we can see, and

18 it's got a numbering system that's been put on in hand,

19 I think. I beg your pardon. It's got a numbering

20 system that's been typed on, 01-120/92. Can you

21 explain the system to me, please?

22 A. The numbering system followed an order. Each

23 new document followed an order. It would be issued the

24 next number, and then after "slash" two digits of the

25 year would be entered.

Page 19441

1 Q. And this is the Croatian Community's Defence

2 Council. Would you like to have a look, please, at

3 Exhibit Z129, which we looked at yesterday.

4 Now, look at this one. The number is there.

5 But it's in hand. Do you see the number? 01-122/92.

6 Do you see that number?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that part of the same series? is what I

9 want to know.

10 A. These are -- this is numbering of two

11 separate bodies, of which each had their own logging

12 system. Here you can see that this was Croatian

13 Defence Council in Busovaca, and the 10th June document

14 is headed "Croatian Defence Council Regional Staff of

15 Central Bosnia in Travnik." So those are two different

16 bodies.

17 Q. Well, I mean I can see the point about it

18 being a different body to the extent of being a

19 regional staff, but in fact, document 129 for the 10th

20 of June is headed "Busovaca" as well, and the numbering

21 system is identical in format, and that's why I wanted

22 your help. It may relate to something in Travnik.

23 It's an order form, we know, but it actually comes from

24 Busovaca. Is it the same numbering system or not?

25 A. It's not the same numbering system. It's a

Page 19442

1 separate system. We could find similar systems with

2 business companies and some other bodies in Busovaca.

3 Q. Because you will notice, of course, that the

4 number on Z129 for the 10th of June is number 122, and

5 the document for the 27th of June, D223/1, is an

6 earlier number, number 120.

7 Well now, as to these documents that you've

8 produced, and we might as well just stay with D223/1,

9 there's only one signature on it, isn't there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And I think for all the documents we looked

12 at yesterday, there's never a Muslim signature on any

13 of the documents. Would that be correct? I want to

14 deal with these matters quickly, if I can.

15 A. I would have to review these documents

16 quickly to see whether there were other signatures on

17 them or not, but from what I recall from yesterday, the

18 documents entered yesterday, I remember that there were

19 a number of documents where I took notes, and it was

20 not necessary for two persons to keep notes of the same

21 meeting.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the position is that

23 these documents weren't raised in cross-examination

24 with witnesses with whom they might have been. I'm not

25 in the position to take a position in relation to the

Page 19443

1 documents specifically at the moment. It may be I will

2 be before the witness is finished. Probably not, but

3 I'll just make a couple of observations to the

4 witness.

5 Q. As to these documents, there may well have

6 been meetings to which they related, but I'm going to

7 suggest to you, in the most general terms, that the

8 records made were both unilateral and, in a sense,

9 slanted. Do you accept that, slanted by being prepared

10 by one side only?

11 A. These meetings did take place. It is not

12 that they may have taken place. I was a participant in

13 those meetings, and the minutes accurately reflect who

14 attended them. They were not one-sided. They are just

15 descriptive of what happened in those meetings. They

16 truthfully reflected the contents of those meetings.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the broadcast seems

18 to have this witness' face blocked out. I think that

19 must be an error, unless I'm mistaken. Perhaps it

20 should be corrected for public purposes.

21 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to try and deal

22 with the summer of 1992 quite shortly.

23 The reality is, is it not, that -- the

24 reality is that those Muslims who returned to or

25 retained their jobs did so in subordinate or lower

Page 19444

1 positions than they'd had before; correct?

2 A. That is not correct, and one cannot define it

3 only some Muslims. All Muslims who were municipal

4 employees were returned to their jobs, to these jobs

5 which they held before, and I think that there are

6 documents to support this. There are decisions, and I

7 believe that there are also logbooks and also

8 payrolls. You can tell that they were coming and they

9 were receiving their salaries in jobs which they held

10 before.

11 Only persons who were mobilised into either

12 the TO or the HVO were not coming, because they went to

13 the military, and they may have been coming back for

14 their salaries because no salaries were being paid by

15 the military organisations at that time. And only

16 female employees with children less than -- of ages

17 under 7 have the right to attend to them and still

18 receive salaries.

19 Q. In this same period of time, the late spring

20 and summer of 1992, were barricades put up in

21 Busovaca?

22 A. Could you please specify what period does the

23 question refer?

24 Q. Well, it seems to be after the period in May,

25 in particular. Were barricades put up?

Page 19445

1 A. What is -- it is important to say whether it

2 was after 10 May because I said that after that there

3 were new barricades, and after a while they were

4 removed, 12 or 13 days thereafter. I have already

5 stated that to the Trial Chamber.

6 Q. Were there armed patrols of HVO touring the

7 streets?

8 A. Yes, the HVO military police and the TO

9 military police and the civilian police all patrolled

10 the area.

11 Q. Well, in particular, the HVO, was that not --

12 are you saying the Territorial Defence were allowed to

13 patrol?

14 A. The TO military police, the HVO military

15 police, and the civilian police patrolled the areas of

16 the Busovaca municipality as agreed to in the documents

17 which have been presented to the Trial Chamber.

18 Q. I must challenge you on that. Can you

19 explain how, in the course of the spring and summer of

20 1992, if it be the case, the telephone lines for

21 Muslims were cut from time to time?

22 A. I know that there were -- that the lines were

23 cut. I don't know what the reasons for that were, but

24 both Croats and Muslims were affected. I could not

25 tell you anything about the technical reasons for it

Page 19446

1 because I'm not a professional.

2 Q. Now, on the 28th of May, 1992, might you have

3 been looking at the television, a broadcast at that

4 time?

5 A. This was a long time ago. I don't know.

6 Q. Perhaps we can play just the beginning of the

7 tape, but before we do, what do you say Mr. Kordic's

8 role in 1992 was, if you were to have introduced him to

9 someone? What would you have said he was?

10 A. I spoke about that yesterday. I said on

11 several occasions, that to me, the position of

12 Mr. Dario Kordic and his status in 1992 was not fully

13 defined but that in 1993, I perceived his role as one

14 of a spokesman for the Croat Community in the besieged

15 Lasva River Valley, and I know that Mr. Dario Kordic in

16 1992 was the vice-president of the Croatian Community

17 of Herceg-Bosna and vice-president of the HDZ.

18 Q. But not vice-president of the HVO?

19 A. According to my information, Mr. Kordic was

20 never the vice-president of the HVO. I said that after

21 August 1992, Mr. Prlic was president of the HVO, and

22 Mr. Anto Valenta was later appointed the vice-president

23 of the HVO for Central Bosnia.

24 Q. Perhaps we can just play the beginning of a

25 tape. It's Z117. While this is coming up -- this is,

Page 19447

1 I gather, 18 minutes in total. I wasn't intending to

2 play it in full in order to save time. It's a document

3 that I'll discuss in closing argument. If we can just

4 have the first -- here we go.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Very little is

7 known about the Croatian Defence Council, this is why

8 we have come to Busovaca to ask Mr. Dario Kordic,

9 vice-president of the Croatian Defence Council, for an

10 interview. Our first question is precisely this: Can

11 you explain what the Croatian Defence Council is?

12 Obviously from the conversation we had before

13 filming this programme, the question you asked in

14 private, I realised that there was much surrounding the

15 Croatian Defence Council that was unclear, especially

16 in Sarajevo and in those areas of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina which effectively have no information from

18 other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 MR. NICE: Can we just pause it there for the

20 time being.

21 Now, Your Honour, I'm entirely in the Court's

22 hands. You can see it's a good quality tape and we

23 have a transcript of it. But it will take 18 minutes

24 to watch.

25 JUDGE MAY: Is there some part you want to

Page 19448

1 put to the witness?

2 MR. NICE: Well, I think, first of all, I

3 must ask the witness if he saw it.

4 Q. Did you see this yourself?

5 A. No.

6 MR. NICE: There are a number of passages in

7 it of potential relevance to argument. I can point

8 them out to the Chamber to save time or I can have it

9 played, but I am acutely aware of the pressure that we

10 are all under about time.

11 JUDGE MAY: No, we don't want to have it

12 played because of the time.

13 MR. NICE: Very well.

14 JUDGE MAY: It may be better to leave it to

15 argument.

16 MR. NICE: Very well. In which case, I

17 shan't address it at all at the moment; we'll just come

18 to it later.

19 Q. Just this please. Can you help us with how

20 it could be that Mr. Kordic was introduced as the

21 vice-president of the HVO or is the truth that that's

22 exactly what he was?

23 A. I must say to the Trial Chamber that I was

24 not -- that I have not been able to read the

25 transcript, but as I scanned through the first --

Page 19449

1 through the first page, and it is the reporter that

2 introduces Dario Kordic as the vice-president of the

3 Croatian Defence Council, but I did not find that

4 Mr. Kordic confirmed that.

5 I do not exclude the possibility of that

6 happening, but I just have not been able to read

7 through the text.

8 Q. I'm going to move on.

9 In the autumn of 1992, September, there were

10 moves to relocate various offices including

11 Mr. Kordic's to Travnik, to make Travnik a Croatian

12 centre for Central Bosnia. You were aware of that.

13 A. Yes, I am aware of such activities, that the

14 office of the vice-president of the Croatian Community

15 of Herceg-Bosna and the office of the vice-president of

16 the HDZ-BiH, and I believe the offices of the

17 government for Central Bosnia, would be transferred to

18 Travnik.

19 Q. Well, Travnik was a known Muslim majority

20 area.

21 A. I can say that in Travnik, from what I know,

22 large numbers of Croats, Muslims, and Serbs lived in

23 Travnik, about 26.000 Croats. It was a multi-ethnic

24 town and now it is a city where there is parity of the

25 Croats and Muslims, each making about 50 per cent of

Page 19450

1 the population currently and it's a seat of the canton.

2 Q. But just this, in 1992, in this part of 1992,

3 the confidence of the HVO was such that having taken

4 Busovaca over, it was felt by Mr. Kordic that he could

5 move and set up government in a place where it would be

6 bound to upset the Muslims to do so. Would that not be

7 correct?

8 A. I cannot accept the -- this as you put it,

9 that he took over something like that. I think that

10 this was a logical activity to set up some civilian

11 bodies which the -- which would enable the entire

12 defence to be affected. I will only remind you that

13 following this period, there was the Lasva Valley that

14 was in danger of falling after Jajce, falling to the

15 Bosnian Serbs. And that the agreement was made to

16 defend Travnik, and Travnik was defended.

17 Q. You see, you've told us about Mr. Kordic

18 knowing him before all this happened. At the time you

19 knew him, he was a committed communist, I think, when

20 you first knew him.

21 A. I cannot qualify him, and I don't think that

22 I would describe him as committed. The job openings at

23 that time were such that you had to be a member of the

24 communist party in order to aspire to certain job

25 levels.

Page 19451

1 Q. He was an active member, wasn't he?

2 A. I don't have too much information about that,

3 but I know that he was not a committed communist.

4 Q. How do you know that then?

5 A. We lived in a town for which you could not

6 tell that it was full of committed communists. Those

7 who were known to everyone, and the others, you could

8 say, were just regular people, regular members of the

9 Communist Party who had to join the party in order to

10 get certain jobs.

11 Q. He was then able to rise very rapidly in the

12 HDZ in Busovaca, and indeed the HVO then, as we've

13 seen, took Busovaca over, and he rose and was

14 continuing to rise in authority throughout 1992.

15 That's a fair picture of the man, isn't it?

16 A. I would just like to point out again I

17 disagree with the term to "take over," that the HVO

18 "took over" Busovaca.

19 Second, in the HDZ hierarchy, and this was a

20 party that was only beginning to get established, it

21 was being established through various branches and

22 people joining in, it is not as if people joined it in

23 order to use it as a stepladder.

24 Q. We must remember that the incident that

25 justified the action in May was an incident that

Page 19452

1 happened at an HVO checkpoint that had been put up

2 without warning in the direction of Kaonik. That's

3 right, isn't it? It was an HVO checkpoint where the

4 first incident occurred, which was relied upon by

5 Kordic and others for what they subsequently did;

6 correct? It's in your own summary.

7 A. It's like this: That is not correct. I can

8 only testify before this Trial Chamber regarding

9 civilian affairs, organisation, management of roads.

10 And as to how this incident took place, what happened,

11 I don't know. I just don't have enough information to

12 be able to testify about it before this Chamber.

13 Q. You may not have enough information to

14 testify about it, but you had enough information to

15 say, at paragraph 36 of your summary, that there was an

16 altercation at an HVO checkpoint. So I think you --

17 did you know that or did somebody tell you that, that

18 it was an HVO checkpoint?

19 A. I said -- I was very clear about this in my

20 testimony before this Court. I do not think there is

21 any need to repeat it.

22 Q. And just to deal with things overall,

23 Mr. Kordic's ascendancy in Busovaca and elsewhere

24 continued right up until mid-April of 1993, when, to

25 everyone's surprise, the Muslims put up rather a better

Page 19453

1 defence than anybody had expected and indeed became the

2 superior force. That's about the truth, isn't it,

3 overall?

4 A. I shall repeat that I'm not an expert on

5 military matters. I really cannot answer it, how

6 strong any party was. I simply cannot say. I'm not an

7 expert. I do not know military rules or, rather, that

8 military logic. I was a soldier in the JNA in 1983 and

9 1984, but I earned no rank in that army, yet I was

10 perhaps the man with the highest education in that

11 army.

12 Q. Well, I'm going to move on very rapidly then

13 if that's your answer. Were you, by any chance,

14 present at a reception given in Busovaca shortly before

15 Christmas of 1992 when a man called de Boer was

16 present, an international monitor? Do you remember

17 that?

18 A. International monitor de Boer, I recall that

19 he was not an international monitor. He was the

20 commander of the Dutch unit of the UNPROFOR.

21 Q. Then you do.

22 A. But I just don't know what reception you have

23 in mind.

24 Q. At such receptions would Mr. Kordic be

25 dressed as and addressed as a lieutenant colonel or a

Page 19454

1 colonel?

2 A. I communicated with people from the municipal

3 administration, communicated with ECMM and with the

4 British Battalion of UNPROFOR and the Dutch Battalion

5 in the UNPROFOR, but now I cannot recall that

6 Mr. Kordic was ever present during those contacts. As

7 far as I recall, I was never present at any meeting

8 together with Mr. Kordic. As far as I can remember, of

9 course, because it was seven or eight years ago.

10 Q. Well, just help us in general. Did he dress

11 as a colonel and like to be called "Colonel"?

12 A. I am not familiar with military ranks and

13 what it looked like, but I never saw any rank insignia

14 on Mr. Kordic's clothes.

15 Q. It's really the case, is it, that you're not

16 familiar at all, despite having lived through a war and

17 worked in the government offices, you're not familiar

18 with military ranks? Don't you know what a colonel is?

19 A. No. I remember the ranks from the time when

20 I served the JNA but now they're quite different.

21 Right at this moment, I have no idea about ranks.

22 Q. Before we move on much further, just this

23 business of Mr. Kordic going to the front line. I

24 think you were there, were you, yourself, or you saw

25 him going? What's the position?

Page 19455

1 A. Could you be more specific? Where do you --

2 are you asking me if I saw him at the front line or ...

3 Q. When he went off to help the troops at the

4 front lines.

5 A. No, I did not see him go there. I only heard

6 him say to the soldiers that he was inviting them to go

7 defend Jajce and to volunteer for that, that he would

8 go too. I testified about that before the Court and I

9 think we're now repeating ourselves. I was never at

10 the front line in Jajce, and I do not know when those

11 volunteers went to that front.

12 Q. Well, what I'd like your help with is this,

13 as a local residence -- incidently, roughly how many

14 people lived in the town of Busovaca itself? Not the

15 overall area, the town of Busovaca. How many

16 thousand?

17 A. In the broader area, what is meant by the

18 town, that is, the municipal boundaries of the town,

19 and they are pretty wide around Busovaca, so almost

20 4.000 inhabitants live in the town of Busovaca, that

21 is, in the part that is officially called the locality,

22 the settlement of Busovaca.

23 Q. That includes outlying villages and hamlets.

24 The town itself is actually very small, isn't it, just

25 a couple of thousand people?

Page 19456

1 A. Well, how shall I put it? I think that the

2 boundary follows the road up to some 2.5 kilometres

3 from the centre of the town in one direction and about

4 two kilometres in the other direction, and it does not

5 include villages. One could perhaps refer to them as

6 suburbs.

7 Q. Well, I just want the Judges, you see, to

8 have from you a picture of quite how small and intimate

9 really this -- it's little more than a big village,

10 isn't it, Busovaca? Would that be about a fair

11 description?

12 A. Well, it's like this: In light of the

13 conditions in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there are about 110

14 municipal seats in BH, and this one was the 80th

15 ranking -- the 80th amongst the municipal seats in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, more or less.

17 Q. Well --

18 A. If I may, just one sentence. There is one

19 fact I should like to point out. As I have already

20 testified, I did not live in Busovaca until August

21 1992, but in a village some 10 kilometres away from

22 Busovaca.

23 It was wartime, and I had to go through

24 several barricades to reach home, so that after work, I

25 would either go home or I was completing the

Page 19457

1 construction of my new house. So that wasn't really

2 wise to all the events as the Prosecutor seems to

3 imply.

4 Q. Well, I'm only dealing with the things about

5 which you were aware, and one of them seems to be that

6 Mr. Kordic was going to provide some help for the

7 troops at the front line.

8 Can you explain to me, please, as a local

9 resident, why a spokesman, if that's what he was, would

10 be able to stimulate the troops? You see, just so that

11 I can finish the point, we're all familiar with

12 political leaders and military leaders inspiring their

13 troops, but can you explain how a spokesman can do

14 that?

15 A. I repeat, I'm referring to 1992 when soldiers

16 were invited to go to Jajce to defend it. And I said

17 that in 1993, as far as [indiscernible], Mr. Kordic was

18 the spokesman for the besieged population in the Lasva

19 Valley, and I cannot really go into it why the soldiers

20 trust Mr. Kordic. He was not their commander. But the

21 citizens of Busovaca, soldiers, not only in Busovaca,

22 trusted Mr. Dario Kordic. They trusted his words.

23 They knew he was a man of integrity, a principled man,

24 and I have already testified about this to this Court.

25 Q. It's truth about it is in 1992, you and other

Page 19458

1 Croats with success or comparative success coming your

2 way were enthused by notions of the wider Croatia, you

3 were enthused by nations of the old Banovina; true?

4 A. I have testified about that too. There were

5 such ideas here and there. In a democratic society,

6 nobody can stop anyone from voicing his political


8 But after the referendum on the independence

9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I never heard it voiced

10 officially. There may have been an individual idea,

11 but a little bit, but officially, no, never.

12 Q. Well, I'm going to move on to the incident in

13 January of 1993. Can you explain at all why several

14 defence -- well, what was the date of this incident in

15 January, 1993, please?

16 A. I have already testified about that too.

17 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to repeat that

18 you've already testified. If counsel asks you a

19 question and it is overbearing and repetitious, he will

20 be stopped. But otherwise, could you just answer

21 shortly, please, to his questions. You were asked what

22 the date was. Just give us the date.

23 A. 24th of January, 1993. It was the incident

24 when Petrovic, an HVO military policeman, was killed at

25 a checkpoint in Kacuni. I heard while being in my

Page 19459

1 house some gunfire around 1600 on the 24th of January

2 1993.


4 Q. All right. Were there any other incidents in

5 January of 1993 that you can tell us about that

6 happened before that?

7 A. This I was told not to repeat, that I have

8 already testified about this. I will not repeat that

9 once again, but on the 20th or 21st of January, 1993, I

10 heard that there was an incident at a checkpoint in

11 Kacuni when Mr. Ignac Kostroman, who was the secretary

12 of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was stopped there and

13 as far as I could understand, he was not allowed to go

14 through to his home in Kresevo.

15 Q. Now, this happened on the 24th or the 25th;

16 is that correct?

17 JUDGE MAY: To be fair to the witness, he

18 said in evidence in chief that it was the 20th or the

19 21st.

20 MR. NICE: The date --

21 JUDGE MAY: I noticed without comment that

22 that's the date that he gave, but let's move on.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. Well, you see, what is your recollection

25 about the date, please? What is your recollection

Page 19460

1 about the date of the incident at the checkpoint at

2 Kacuni? It's your evidence.

3 A. I've just said it was the 20th or the 21st of

4 January, as far as I know.

5 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour --

6 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to bother.

7 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, this is very

8 unsatisfactory. The question was asked by Mr. Sayers.

9 We've heard about an incident that occurred on the 20th

10 or the 21st in Kacuni.

11 JUDGE MAY: Let us not waste time. We are a

12 professional body of Judges. We do not need this kind

13 of detail. We can see what's happening with the

14 witness. We'll make our own mind up about it.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Can you then please, Mr. Grubesic, just tell

17 us the detail of what happened to Mr. Kostroman.

18 That's what I want to know.

19 A. I said that I had heard that he had been

20 stopped there. I do not have any other information

21 about the incident.

22 Q. I think you told us that things happened

23 after that to certain premises. To what premises did

24 things happen?

25 A. Yes. During that period of time, sometime

Page 19461

1 between the 20th and the 23rd, I'm not sure of the

2 date, a large number of Muslim premises in Busovaca

3 were damaged, damaged not destroyed, and several Croat

4 shops were also damaged, but there was a larger number

5 of Muslim shops damaged. That is, their window shops

6 were broken, hand grenades had been thrown into some of

7 these outlets, but none of them were demolished.

8 Q. Well, why were Muslim premises, as you would

9 describe it, damaged? At this time in January, why,

10 can you help us, were prominent Muslim citizens

11 arrested at this time, in this small town?

12 A. I do not know about arrests made at that

13 time, and I really cannot fathom why these shops were

14 damaged. What were the reasons for that, one could, of

15 course, make guesses, but I really do not know what the

16 true reason is behind that, and I cannot comment about

17 that.

18 Q. What about the murder? You haven't mentioned

19 the murder about the man, Delija. What was that all to

20 do with?

21 A. I heard about Delija's murder, but now I

22 cannot tell you because I do not know what were the

23 circumstances or when it happened. Whether it was

24 before the 25th of January or after the 25th of

25 January, I really do not know. What I do know only is

Page 19462

1 that it did take place.

2 Q. And was it rumoured to be connected to

3 Mr. Kordic or to Mr. Kostroman or to both?

4 A. I was not aware of such comments. I shall

5 say only one sentence: The situation at that time was

6 very confused and it was very difficult to obtain any

7 information in wartime. And I think war anywhere, it

8 is best to stay put at home and not move about,

9 especially at night. I think this applies to war in

10 general.

11 So I spent most of the time with my family.

12 I would go to work and come back home from work. In

13 wartime, the situation is very difficult and very

14 confused.

15 Q. Mr. Grubesic, you're claiming amnesia or

16 never having known of events when it's inconvenient,

17 aren't you? That's the truth, because you know

18 perfectly well in your small town what happened to lead

19 to both the bombings and the killing.

20 A. If something happened three streets away from

21 here, we wouldn't know what had happened there, would

22 we, because we are not there.

23 MR. NICE: I want to just deal with a couple

24 of particular matters. May the witness have Exhibit

25 461, please. It's a sealed exhibit so it shouldn't go

Page 19463

1 on the ELMO. It may be sealed, I'm not sure.

2 JUDGE MAY: It is apparently sealed.

3 MR. NICE: Yes.

4 Q. Can you just look, yourself, please, at --

5 the entries are all dated, and since it's sealed, can

6 you just read it to yourself. All right? Go, for

7 example, to the 26th of January, our page 5.

8 Have you read the entry for the 26th of

9 January?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, you were staying in your house, so you

12 may not have seen or heard everything, but is that

13 entry, as an example, an accurate entry of what was

14 happening in January of 1993 in your small town?

15 A. You will remember that I already said that

16 with my wife, who was expecting, I went to the shelter

17 on the 24th, that I spent several days there and never

18 left that shelter because there was a lot of gunfire

19 and shelling. So it was very dangerous to go out of

20 the shelter. I cannot give you any precise, that is,

21 any information.

22 Q. All right. Well then one more short

23 extract. Come back a couple of pages. A very short

24 extract, bottom of our page 3. I don't know where it

25 is in the original. 21st, 22nd, and 23rd of January.

Page 19464

1 Read it to yourself.

2 Is that an accurate account of the 21st,

3 22nd, and 23rd?

4 A. I did not see any of the things indicated

5 here, and the only thing I can say is that I realised,

6 at a later stage, that the Muslims had begun leaving

7 Busovaca. And I did not know about that, nor did I

8 know reasons about it. It was only later that I found

9 out that it had happened.

10 And perhaps just one more comment. From what

11 I can see, this document was written on the 12th of

12 February, 1993.

13 Q. But you're not challenging -- you tell us you

14 didn't hear it, but you're not challenging that what's

15 said there for the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd of January

16 might well be true. You accept it might well be true,

17 don't you?

18 A. Well, if I did not hear something or see

19 something, then I cannot say anything about it, can I?

20 Q. 3rd of February, Mr. Jennings. I'll just

21 deal with this very briefly. Could you look at this

22 map, please, which I can make available. It's 2781.2.

23 I'll show the usher the bit to put on the ELMO,

24 please.

25 MR. NICE: There's a census document, Defence

Page 19465

1 116/1, that the Chamber may wish to remind itself of,

2 and that document I can also make available to the

3 witness in a minute.

4 Q. The position is this, is it not: The place

5 marked -- sorry. Is there a problem with the map,

6 Mr. Grubesic?

7 A. I don't see any.

8 Q. The map shows the area between Kacuni and

9 something marked as Donje Polje; correct?

10 A. Yes. That is what I see on the screen, that

11 particular area.

12 Q. The colours don't come out particularly well,

13 but you can see on the original that there runs

14 north -- well, there runs from Donje Polje down to

15 Kacuni, a river, and it crosses the road some distance

16 to the north-west of Kacuni, the little bridge there.

17 We can actually see it. If you can see it, you might

18 point it out with the pointer.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Thank you. That's the bridge.

21 You've given evidence about Muslim houses and

22 Muslim occupation of Polje or Donje Polje, and I can

23 hand the census form to you, but the evidence we've

24 heard is this: that along the road from that bridge in

25 the direction of Donje Polje, there are houses, I think

Page 19466

1 on either side, or there were houses on either side.

2 That would be correct, wouldn't it?

3 A. Yes. All the way from Kacuni to Busovaca,

4 there are houses on both sides more or less. They may

5 be slightly scattered perhaps, they're not close to one

6 another, not wall to wall, but yes, there are houses

7 all along the way.

8 Q. The census document that shows a nil return

9 for Muslims deals not with Donje Polje but Polje, and

10 that same census documents also allows for the

11 existence of eight Yugoslavs and seven other ethnic

12 group inhabitants. You can have the document if you

13 want to.

14 The evidence that we've heard is that along

15 that road, houses that happened to have or had

16 four-sided roofs were being visited by men with HVO

17 uniforms or HVO insignia and were being set on fire.

18 Now, that's the evidence.

19 You're not able to tell us yourself, are you,

20 to which particular part of this overall area the

21 census relating to Polje relates? You have the

22 document to look at, of course, if you want to. Have

23 mine for speed.

24 A. From what I can see in this document and as

25 far as I can remember, it is accurate as far as Polje

Page 19467

1 is concerned. So as far as I understood, 729

2 inhabitants, 5 Serbs, no Muslims, and 709 Croats,

3 8 Yugoslavs, and 7 others.

4 I believe that these figures are accurate

5 figures reflecting the population structure in Polje in

6 1991.

7 Q. We don't know along that road from Donje

8 Polje to Kacuni where the boundary is, and I'm going to

9 suggest to you that there were houses along that road

10 that belonged to Muslims and that they were indeed

11 being destroyed in February 1993 by the HVO.

12 A. I didn't understand. Were you asking me

13 something? Was that a question?

14 Q. Yes. I'm suggesting to you -- you've given

15 evidence about habitation.

16 A. It's like this: I don't know how accurate I

17 can point to things on the map, but the bridge that I

18 have pointed out --

19 Q. Yes. What about the bridge?

20 A. This [indicates]. There was an incident on

21 this bridge when the military policeman Petrovic was

22 killed on the 25th of January -- no, 24th of January,

23 1993.

24 The settlement of Polje starts by this creek

25 which is called Babjak. I'm going to point it on the

Page 19468

1 map. Here in the direction of Busovaca, that is where

2 the village of Polje runs [indicates]. Up to here is

3 the village of Kacuni, to this point on the road. This

4 is where Kacuni and Polje border each other. And from

5 here, almost until the entrance to Busovaca, there's

6 Polje and there's some additional villages there

7 [indicates]. There's not -- there is no single Muslim

8 home alongside the road. I can almost tell you, house

9 by house, who owns it. I went to school there, I knew

10 these people, and I could name all these --

11 Q. I'm going to interrupt you. The point you've

12 pointed to is the junction of the two villages that

13 indeed fits with what -- the evidence we've heard, so

14 that's fine. I needn't ask you any more about that.

15 Thank you.

16 I think I've got very little more to ask

17 you. You were in charge of passes or you had the right

18 to issue passes in the war for the passage of property

19 and goods. That was a method of raising taxes, wasn't

20 it, passes for the passage of goods?

21 A. The passes for passage of goods were not

22 being charged. There was no charge for them, but they

23 could be used by the tax authority to follow the

24 traffic of goods.

25 And Mr. Glavocevic was in charge of this, and

Page 19469

1 I could only do it in his absence which, I believe,

2 never actually happened, that I signed any of such

3 passes.

4 Q. Did either of you charge the issue of passes?

5 A. I think that there was a service in the

6 municipal government in charge of that. I think for

7 the passage, there was a charge for the passage of

8 people. I think the fee was around one German mark per

9 person, but I was not directly involved in this.

10 I know that there was a tax, maybe 10 or 20

11 marks for the passage of goods.

12 Q. Two other questions. Why were men of

13 military age arrested and detained in Kaonik in early

14 1993, please, Muslim men of military age? What

15 conceivable reason was there for doing that?

16 A. I wouldn't know why this happened. I said

17 where I was during that period. There are several

18 possible reasons for it. One is probably that they

19 were captured with weapons so that the prisoner could

20 be put somewhere.

21 So in that sense --

22 Q. Why were Muslim men of military age rounded

23 up and imprisoned in Busovaca, please?

24 A. I don't know the exact reason why this

25 happened.

Page 19470

1 Q. Why did Mr. Kordic take up headquarters in

2 the PTT building and do so with all the accoutrements

3 of being a military officer, uniformed and armed

4 guards. You were there, why did it happen?

5 A. I think that Mr. Kordic did not move any

6 headquarters of his into the PTT building. I think

7 that at that time, the basement -- the PTT basement was

8 a fairly secure place, secure from shelling, and I

9 think that the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade

10 headquarters were there at the time.

11 Q. Why would he be there in military uniform,

12 please?

13 A. Who?

14 Q. Mr. Kordic.

15 A. I don't know. I wasn't there during that

16 period. I never entered the PTT building during that

17 period when the headquarters was there.

18 Q. Explain to us, please, why there were only

19 30-odd Muslims left in Busovaca by February of 1994.

20 They were driven out, weren't they, all the others?

21 A. I don't think that those are accurate data.

22 Let me give you one piece of information. There are

23 about 30 Muslim families in my neighbourhood, and I

24 know that they stay there until September or October

25 1993, they stayed in their homes.

Page 19471

1 And that with the influx of fresh refugees

2 who had been driven out of Zenica, these displaced

3 people forcibly pushed those Muslims out of their homes

4 and moved in and gave them documents allowing them to

5 enter their homes which they had left in Zenica.

6 So the information, data for this period are

7 not accurate.

8 Q. Do you have a Croatian passport, yes or no?

9 A. I have the passport of Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 and I have the passport of the Republic of Croatia. I

11 have a dual citizenship. I have the citizenship of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina and, according to the law, I also

13 have the right to the citizenship of the Republic of

14 Croatia.

15 Q. I'm not, of course, going to ask you any

16 questions about the awful tragedy of your parents and

17 I'm not in a position to deal with the detail. Just

18 help us, have you at any time spoken to the

19 investigators of this Tribunal about those

20 circumstances or not?

21 A. No, I was never invited by the investigators

22 of this Tribunal to talk about this. I only gave a

23 statement in the police station in Busovaca in that

24 regard.

25 MR. NICE: Very well. Thank you.

Page 19472

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I want to take the

3 witness back to something which he said in the latter

4 part of his examination-in-chief. It is in relation to

5 Mr. Kordic's encouraging the soldiers to defend Jajce

6 and he said Mr. Kordic said words to the effect, "I

7 will go with you to the front lines not as a soldier

8 but as a politician."

9 I want to ask the witness whether that was

10 the direct speech of Mr. Kordic, in other words, was

11 that -- were those his exact words, or do they

12 represent your understanding of what he would, in fact,

13 be doing were he to go to the front lines?

14 A. Your Honours, the exact words of Mr. Kordic

15 were, "We have to defend Jajce and I will go with you

16 to defend Jajce." And the rest is my understanding of

17 it in that context.

18 I never heard from anyone, nor did I see that

19 Mr. Kordic was in any place with the weapon in his

20 hands so I drew a conclusion that he would go up there

21 as a politician. That was my conclusion.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

23 MR. SAYERS: Just two or three questions,

24 Mr. President. I wonder if I could show Mr. Grubesic

25 one of the documents that he was asked about, Z78 and

Page 19473

1 Z78A.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Sayers:

3 Q. Mr. Grubesic, you were shown this document

4 and asked some questions about it by the Prosecution

5 and certain propositions were put to you regarding the

6 conclusions that are to be drawn from the fact that

7 Mr. Kordic signed it.

8 As you can see from the introductory part of

9 this document, it says, "In accordance with the order

10 of the Ministry of National Defence of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina," and there's a stamp on the

12 Croatian original. Sir, could you identify that

13 stamp? It appears to be in Cyrillic, and I can't read

14 it, but does that look familiar to you?

15 A. When I am re-analysing this document, I can

16 indeed see, I am referring to the document itself, that

17 the document was issued by the -- in accordance with

18 the order of the Ministry of the National Defence of

19 the Republic of BH. And as far as a seal is concerned,

20 it was done in two alphabets. The better one is in

21 Cyrillic.

22 These were the usual prewar seals in

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so both in the Cyrillic. It says

24 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Busovaca

25 municipality, the Municipal Secretariat for National

Page 19474

1 Defence. And then it also has a prewar coat of arms in

2 the middle. That is done both in Cyrillic and in Roman

3 alphabets.

4 Q. Just one final question. The Ministry of

5 National Defence of the republic, was that a military

6 institution or a civilian institution?

7 A. That was a civilian institution at the level

8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which would correspond to

9 the Ministry of Defence, and here it was called

10 People's Defence.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. SAYERS: I'm finished with that document,

13 Mr. Usher, and there's one other document that I would

14 like to have put on the ELMO, and I've highlighted a

15 parenthetical phrase. I'd just like the witness to

16 read this slowly in his own language and get an

17 accurate translation of this document, Z111 and Z111A,

18 for which there are various translations provided to us

19 by the Prosecution.

20 Q. But let's just have it read in the original

21 language, sir, and see what it says. And this is from

22 paragraph 3.

23 A. Paragraph 3?

24 Q. Yes. The language I've highlighted in

25 between the brackets, and I've highlighted it in

Page 19475

1 yellow.

2 A. Not the entire paragraph 3 but just the part

3 in parenthesis.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. "All employees of the administrative bodies

6 of the Busovaca Municipal Assembly, as well as the

7 employees of all companies and institutions in the

8 Busovaca municipality area, the employees of the

9 Busovaca public security station," in parenthesis,

10 "except for the employees of the police station who do

11 not wish to place themselves under the HVO command."

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grubesic. That's just fine.

13 I'm through with that exhibit. Thank you.

14 Then the last exhibit I'd like you to look at

15 was the exhibit that was under seal.

16 MR. SAYERS: So please don't put this on the

17 ELMO, but if you'd just show it to the witness. Thank

18 you. Exhibit Z461.

19 And just for the Trial Chamber's information,

20 there's an ancillary exhibit that I'm sure the Trial

21 Chamber remembers, Z461A, which is a rather more

22 chronologically concentrated version of this report.

23 Q. I'd just like to ask you two questions, sir.

24 In connection with the entry --

25 A. Sorry. I'm sorry. I only received a copy in

Page 19476

1 the English language.

2 Q. I'm sorry, sir. My error. Thank you. If

3 you could just turn to the entry for January the 20th

4 and the 21st. Is there any mention at all of anyone

5 being stopped at a checkpoint by ABiH troops? Any

6 mention of Mr. Kostroman being stopped or indeed of

7 Mr. Kordic being there? Could you just inform us of

8 that, please?

9 A. To look at 20th and 21st. Very well. I'll

10 need a little bit of time to be able to read through

11 it.

12 MR. SAYERS: To save some time, Your Honour,

13 if I could just put the proposition to the witness, and

14 if the Prosecution has any observations, I'd be more

15 than delighted to hear from them.

16 Q. There is no mention of anyone being stopped

17 at any checkpoint, Mr. Kostroman or Mr. Kordic, on the

18 20th or 21st in this document that appears to be

19 generated by the head of the Muslim police station in

20 Kacuni.

21 Would you agree with that from your scanning

22 the document, Mr. Grubesic?

23 A. As I scan through it, I cannot find any

24 mention of the incident of anyone being stopped at the

25 checkpoint in Kacuni.

Page 19477

1 Q. Very well. Last question. On page 3 of the

2 English version, there's a mention of the murder of

3 Mr. Delija, about which questions were asked of you by

4 the Prosecution. Could you just tell us whether you

5 found that, sir. I believe it's towards the end of

6 January 20th.

7 A. I've found it.

8 Q. Very well. Now, is there any contention made

9 in the document that was prepared several weeks after

10 this incident of any rumours, scuttlebutt, hearsay,

11 gossip, things of that type, that connected this

12 incident with Mr. Kordic in any way, sir?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. SAYERS: No further questions, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Grubesic, that concludes your

18 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

19 Tribunal to give it. You are released.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, it would be

23 convenient to take the break now, unless there's

24 something you wanted to raise.

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

Page 19478

1 just a couple of minutes to discuss the protective

2 measures for the next witness very briefly.

3 JUDGE MAY: I don't have the document. I

4 thought I did, but I don't.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] With the

6 Trial Chamber's permission, we can -- if we are going

7 to discuss it before the break, we need to go into

8 private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19479

1 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

3 [Open session]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the

6 declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

9 truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

14 just a few minutes to go through the particulars of

15 this witness and could we go back into the private

16 session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19480

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19481

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)


Page 19482

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)


16 [Open session]

17 Q. Witness DE, you're on -- the Court will allow

18 you to look at your summary from time to time during

19 your testimony, but I do not think it is really

20 necessary for you to refer to it. You can answer your

21 questions falling back on your memory but, of course,

22 you can refer to it if need be.

23 The Court has already heard a great deal

24 about the historical background so we do not have to go

25 into it. Just one sentence. From the point of view of

Page 19483

1 you, the inhabitants of the municipality, when did some

2 more noteworthy, some grave misunderstandings begin

3 between the Muslims and Croats in your municipality?

4 A. In our municipality, these misunderstandings

5 began when the Yugoslav People's Army requested the

6 evacuation of the barracks or, rather, after the war

7 had broken out in Croatia officially, and weapons were

8 being requested to be taken to the territory of the

9 Republic of Croatia and other places so as to wage

10 war.

11 It is a fact that the Croat people, that is,

12 or I can say about myself, in Croatia, I have a sister

13 in Osijek, for instance, and Osijek, at that time, was

14 under fierce shelling and destroyed.

15 She used to work in the hospital. The

16 hospital was badly destroyed, and every time she went

17 to work, it was a hazardous business. So I had

18 personal reasons to be concerned about the movement of

19 those convoys because some of them were also going to

20 that particular area in Croatia.

21 Q. I was about to say, as to those convoys, with

22 there other villages with other inhabitants of the

23 municipality, you also participated in those protests

24 personally to prohibit, to stop the passage of weapons

25 to Croatia?

Page 19484

1 A. Yes, I personally approved that, and I

2 supported it insofar as I could do it, of course.

3 However, it is a fact that the Muslim side was not

4 concerned about it, it simply showed no interest, and

5 the Serb side, I mean, those who were in Busovaca

6 still.

7 So that was one of the first

8 misunderstandings between the Croat and the Muslim

9 communities. They were inactive. They paid no

10 attention to the fact that the Croat community was

11 concerned about this; that it was insisting on the

12 evacuation of the barracks; that the JNA had no

13 business to be there; that the Croat population in

14 Busovaca was a minority population; therefore, there

15 was no reason for them to.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you. So if I understand,

17 this rift between the communities began first because

18 of the war in Croatia and also your views and the

19 preparations that would -- then in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

20 isn't it? That was another factor that you could not

21 agree about?

22 A. Yes. Of course, people in some higher

23 political offices understood the situation, but I

24 couldn't really have a full grasp of the situation.

25 The situation was rather confused. But basically one

Page 19485

1 could see that there was an aspiration that everything

2 was leading to chaos, to disarray. One could not rely

3 on anything with any degree of certainty, especially

4 since some conflicts had already begun in Sarajevo.

5 There was no communication with Sarajevo at all.

6 Q. Very well. Very well. We shall move step by

7 step. Only will you please wait for my answer to be

8 interpreted into the official languages of the Tribunal

9 to facilitate the work of the interpreters. It will be

10 very difficult to say who said what unless we make a

11 break.

12 Okay. I believe we have described, in a

13 couple of sentences, the situation in which the Croat,

14 that is the minority population of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15 accounting for only 17.4 per cent, found themselves

16 in. A great deal has already been said here and the

17 Court knows about the attitude of the Croats who got in

18 the referendum. However, if there are any questions

19 about this you can answer that, but we can move on.

20 In spite of the referendum and in spite of

21 the fact that the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had

22 become an autonomous and independent state, could that

23 state stand on its own two feet; that is, did the

24 central government ever begin to function with regard

25 to the municipalities?

Page 19486

1 A. No, never. That is, those conflicts which

2 were taking place around Sarajevo blocked completely

3 the entrance, the access to Sarajevo. I know this from

4 accounts of drivers, those who were busy with payments,

5 who had to take money to and from the municipalities,

6 that they would be intercepted by Chetniks, threatening

7 them with murders, seizing their cars, and so on and so

8 forth, so that the blockade was complete.

9 And all the funds, all the central funds

10 which were in Sarajevo and other central administration

11 which was in Sarajevo did not function at all,

12 especially with regard to the municipalities. So the

13 municipalities somehow had to fend for themselves. The

14 municipalities had to become states, in a manner of

15 speaking.

16 JUDGE MAY: If anything turns on this, you

17 will be asked some questions about it.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

19 Your Honours.

20 Q. Witness DE, just one question more about

21 this. The Court already knows about how the whole

22 system fell into pieces -- fell to pieces, but life had

23 to be organised in your municipality because life goes

24 on regardless of the problems in the state, but

25 municipality -- the municipal government organised the

Page 19487

1 whole life, public health, education, finance, and

2 everything else.

3 A. Yes, of course. There was a period of time

4 when we had to think and take some decisions, to talk

5 to other municipalities to see how and what to organise

6 it all. Namely, one had to organise the work of

7 schools, because the school year was coming up; to

8 organise the health; welfare; the work of medical

9 institutions; to organise the payment of pensions,

10 because the pension fund was also in Sarajevo. There

11 was absolutely no chance of these people getting their

12 pensions from there.

13 So in municipalities or specifically in the

14 municipality of Busovaca, since the payments had been

15 cut off, all the money was kept in Busovaca. That is,

16 the municipal government then decided that the funds

17 should be distributed and to finance the communal

18 needs; that is, the public institutions, health care

19 institutions, public utilities, and the like.

20 Q. That is, to finance from these funds all

21 these -- all walks of life in the territory of the

22 municipality of Busovaca?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In view of the imminent danger of war, the

25 Municipal Assembly ceased to function at some point

Page 19488

1 sometime in early April 1992, and the Crisis Staff was

2 set up, consisting of members of all the parliamentary

3 parties, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did the Crisis Staff continue to try to

6 organise life in the municipality? However, in those

7 chaotic times, did it succeed or not?

8 A. Your Honours, I'm not really sure how it

9 functioned, because I simply had no say, nor did I have

10 any information about the operation of the staff,

11 especially after the shelling. For a while, we never

12 came to work. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 All I heard was that this Crisis Staff was

17 not really performing very well, that they were

18 inefficient, that they had problems, but I really do

19 not know much about that.

20 Q. But I suppose you were aware that some

21 agreements had been reached with the JNA about the

22 evacuation of the JNA, about the location of --

23 dislocation of, because they were in the municipality?

24 A. Yes. They had three barracks with large

25 depots. (redacted) there was a huge

Page 19489

1 barracks, and people were saying that the whole house

2 might blow-up if this went on fire, and the situation

3 was very tense among the population. Everybody was

4 very anxious as to what would happen to those barracks,

5 whether the conflict would break out straight away,

6 whether it would be resolved in some peaceful manner.

7 So the situation was very tense.

8 At night, people put out their lights very

9 early or, rather, nobody went to bed because people

10 were afraid. There was sporadic gunfire around the

11 barracks. So the situation was like that all the

12 time.

13 Q. I suppose that this collective anxiety and

14 this tension spread especially after the bombing of

15 Busovaca on the 26th of April by the JNA air force.

16 There were fires and a lot of destruction had taken

17 place.

18 A. Yes. Fear culminated at that time because

19 nobody believed before that they would bomb it like

20 that, that everything would be on fire, that there

21 would be these terrible explosions. That is, I'm

22 trying to portray the situation. I have never before

23 experienced any bombing. And it was the culmination,

24 horrible culmination, because everything was in flames,

25 and the power was cut off, telephones were cut off, and

Page 19490

1 there was chaos in the town because we didn't know

2 whether the bombing would happen again. The planes

3 flew over us the next day.

4 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Witness DE, we've heard a great

6 deal of evidence in this case, as you appreciate. It's

7 been going on for more than a year. Could you confine

8 yourself to simply answering the questions, and if

9 you'll do, that we'll get on more quickly.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness DE, you heard it from His Honour.

12 The Court has indeed learned a great many details about

13 this, so we do not have to do it any more.

14 However, in this chaotic time, sometime in

15 May 1992, in early May 1992, the tension between the

16 Croat and the Muslim community in Busovaca culminated.

17 You were not there yourself, but just in a sentence,

18 what do you know about that? What is it that happened?

19 A. You mean in relation to the barracks and the

20 takeover of the barracks? Well, I did not take part in

21 this; I only heard. In the wake of it, I heard that

22 there was a problem with the Kaonik barracks. I heard

23 that in a nearby coffee shop; that is, it was quite a

24 large coffee shop, and it was full of Muslim troops

25 before that, and they were discussing the takeover of

Page 19491

1 that barracks and the distribution of it 50/50. I do

2 not really know any details about that. But there was

3 some altercation and some gunfire, and a young man, a

4 21-year-old man was wounded.

5 Q. Yes, yes, yes. The Court knows all that.

6 Thank you. But did you hear, perhaps, if it was only

7 locals who had turned up or were there some people from

8 outside the municipality? Did you hear anything about

9 that?

10 A. I'm not quite sure, but I was told that there

11 were also some people from outside the municipality,

12 some people who were unknown in the municipality.

13 Q. So in that atmosphere on one of those days,

14 the HVO in the municipality of Busovaca was founded.

15 It was provisional measures, measures to organise life

16 in the area. You also had certain duties to perform in

17 the -- in that civilian body which ran the

18 municipality?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. We already said what you did, so we do not

21 have to repeat that. (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted), but did

24 you receive any assistance from central government, was

25 it possible to try to -- coordinate the authorities

Page 19492

1 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. No, no way. We were simply left to our own

3 devices. We could not expect assistance from anywhere

4 because the situation was growing more complex day in

5 day out so that we simply had to rely on ourselves, try

6 to do whatever we could do and try to organise somehow

7 that retched life we had.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted). I did not

20 ever see him come to work, only in passing when he was

21 talking to his men.

22 Q. Excuse me, where was he at that time? What

23 was he doing?

24 A. I should say in the BH army.

25 Q. Very well, thank you. Could you tell the

Page 19493

1 Court, I mean, we do not have to repeat it unless so

2 required, but the municipal government had to ensure

3 the health care and pensions and food supplies and

4 schools and so on and so forth so there is no need to

5 go on back into that and waste time.

6 So just one sentence about it. As of May,

7 this municipal civilian work of the HVO continued the

8 work of the former municipal authority, that is, the

9 organisation of the overall life in the municipality?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Very well, thank you. Tell us, please, you

12 worked with the same people for years. You've known

13 one another for a long time. After May 1992 when the

14 civilian HVO took over, assumed the responsibility for

15 the situation in the municipality, have you ever heard

16 that all of you, all of you employed there, Muslims and

17 Croats and everybody else, had to take an oath of

18 allegiance or sign your loyalty?

19 A. No, I never had to do it nor did anybody ever

20 tell me to do that, nor were we instructed to do so.

21 We were told to do as you did before and just treat

22 everybody equally. The civil servants have to be

23 polite and attend to all the needs of all the people.

24 Q. So, you were required to demonstrate

25 professional attitude?

Page 19494

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted). Did any of them have to take the oath of

5 allegiance?

6 A. No, I never heard about that, never heard

7 about that. As far as I know, they were not requested

8 to do that.

9 Q. Tell us, please, under the new job

10 systemisation in the municipal government after May

11 1992, who was the only one who formally lost a job,

12 regardless of Croats and Muslims?

13 A. Asim Sunulahpasic lost his job formally or it

14 was agreed, but it was agreed that he went back to the

15 Vatrostalna factory where he worked before.

16 All of them kept their jobs. (redacted)

17 (redacted) for the TO

18 and the BH army. But once a month, (redacted)

19 and there was no problem. They would, nevertheless,

20 get their salaries for that month. And it was like

21 that until the end of 1992.

22 Q. So formally speaking, they were still (redacted)

23 payroll although in practical terms they were in the

24 units?

25 A. Yes, especially men. They were all in the

Page 19495

1 units but that was the understanding, no problem, let's

2 just have them report and they would get their salaries

3 so they were paid regularly. There were, I think, 72

4 people on the payroll in November 1992. They all got

5 their salaries.

6 Q. Tell us, please, since we are talking about

7 the organisation of work in the municipal government,

8 have you ever heard or, rather, did you ever hear that

9 there was ever any --

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. NICE: The witness is following the

12 summary very closely.

13 JUDGE MAY: Could you close the summary up,

14 please. And since this is -- Mr. Naumovski, since this

15 is very much in dispute, perhaps you would not lead on

16 this evidence.

17 Perhaps the witness could give her own

18 evidence. What was the attitude towards the Muslim

19 employees by the HVO municipal government --

20 [Technical difficulty]

21 JUDGE MAY: We are getting French. Now we

22 seem to be all right.

23 Could you start again, please, Witness DE?

24 A. I'm saying that the attitude of the

25 authorities towards all the employees was the same,

Page 19496

1 there was no difference.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)-- and received their pay, their salaries regularly,

5 even though they did not come to work regularly because

6 they worked for the army of BH or the Territorial

7 Defence.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] If there are

9 no further questions from Your Honours, may I

10 continue? Thank you.

11 Q. This was part of the -- my own question, and

12 I was helped out by the Trial Chamber. Did you ever

13 hear that there was a direct or indirect discrimination

14 against people of other ethnic groups in any of the

15 services of the municipal government?

16 A. You see, there were very few of us there,

17 that is, towards the end of 1992 and early 1993. There

18 were very few of us working there because the situation

19 was difficult in general, and it was not very safe.

20 And I believe in respect of the municipal government

21 services, special care was -- that special attention

22 was taken to also consider the Muslim employees because

23 we all needed to work and survive somehow.

24 Q. Can you tell me, please, in late November or

25 in December of 1992, (redacted)

Page 19497

1 (redacted)?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Out of those, how many were Muslim?

4 A. There were seven Muslims. And as I said,

5 they all received their salaries, some even got bonuses

6 like Ms. Nasiha Neslanovic who had additional work.

7 She had additional areas to clean. Because we had

8 fewer people coming in to work, we would distribute the

9 entire workload among those who came. So they, for

10 instance, had to clean the land office rooms, that was

11 120 square metres.

12 JUDGE MAY: We don't have to go into all this

13 detail. Let's move on.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

15 I think we should avoid further details so I thought

16 that we may enter the -- tender as an exhibit the list

17 of all the work done by all the employees at the time.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you want to do that, do

19 that.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I simply

21 thought that we would put it in the record and the

22 document will speak for itself. I will have no further

23 questions of the document. Can the usher please assist

24 me.

25 Q. While we are waiting for this document to be

Page 19498

1 distributed, out of 72 municipal employees who were

2 working there in January 1993, how many of them were

3 receiving salaries?

4 A. As far as the employees are concerned, the 19

5 that I mentioned.

6 Q. I meant all departments.

7 A. There were 72 including all those who only

8 occasionally showed up for work.

9 Q. Out of that total number, how many Muslims

10 were there?

11 A. I believe that there were 25, 26. I cannot

12 give you the exact figure.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked D 233/1.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness DE, is this the document, if you

16 could just scan it very briefly, is this the logbook of

17 all employees and their times and who worked when?

18 A. Yes, that is that document.

19 Q. Very well. No need to go any further into

20 it.

21 As you said, you tried to do what you could

22 to organise a life there, but also to have an open ear

23 to the wishes of the citizenry; in other words, not to

24 impose certain views on certain -- on citizens.

25 So if a citizen came to get some kind of a

Page 19499

1 certificate or other document from the municipal

2 services, could they choose what type of letterhead

3 they would get?

4 A. Yes. After we had reached the agreement,

5 after the provisional government was established in

6 Busovaca, very soon thereafter, we produced this

7 documents which had two different letterheads or

8 headings; one with the lilies, one with the

9 Herceg-Bosna seal.

10 Because some people asked, depending on what

11 they needed it for, they asked for different types of

12 documents so the Muslim citizens and Croat citizens

13 could get which ever type of document they wanted.

14 Q. Who decided which type of letterhead was

15 going to be used on which document, the official or the

16 party that came for it?

17 A. The party.

18 Q. You also worked on the organisation of the

19 school system. There were a number of schools in the

20 Busovaca school system. At that time, the school

21 curriculum was not fully defined. There was still the

22 old curriculum but -- from the old state, but also the

23 HVO in Mostar had its own curriculum.

24 Were there problems relating to that?

25 A. At the beginning of the school year, we

Page 19500

1 called all the school principals, I think that the head

2 of the municipality did so, and a meeting was held.

3 And we said that the curriculum should be adjusted,

4 that the Serbian authors should be omitted, that -- and

5 other adjustments should be made.

6 So at the level of the Mostar government and

7 also the Central Bosnian level, such meetings were

8 organised and the school principals discussed the

9 adjustments to the school curriculum.

10 The curriculum from the government in Mostar

11 was such that we could agree with the Muslim

12 counterparts specifically in language, that they could

13 use their own name for their mother tongue, the

14 Bosniak. At that time they did not exist.

15 Also, to study particular authors and so on.

16 Q. After these agreements -- regarding these

17 agreements, those who agreed were members of both

18 ethnic groups?

19 A. Yes. There were three elementary schools.

20 There was one in Kacuni where the principal wore the

21 Muslim because the population was majority Muslim, and

22 there was one in Busovaca and one in Kaonik. They

23 would sit down together and hold joint meetings. There

24 were no particular objections except that they needed

25 to sit down and work out those curricula.

Page 19501

1 Q. You said that in Kacuni the principal was a

2 Muslim, but did Croats also teach there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Until when?

5 A. Until the first conflict on the 24th, 25th.

6 Q. Was that in January 1993?

7 A. Yes, January 1993. That is correct. In

8 fact, my colleague who used to teach music there, her

9 name is Dragica Miocevic, a couple of days before moved

10 across the lines because she said that there was a lot

11 of concentration of soldiers and that conflict would

12 break out.

13 Q. So Dragica Miocevic was one of the non-Muslim

14 teachers who worked there?

15 A. Yes. She also lived there and she worked

16 there.

17 Q. Did what she say would happen indeed happen?

18 A. Yes. The very next day, we had that terrible

19 night where all this shooting could be heard coming

20 from Kacuni, when there was a mass exodus of people

21 from that area.

22 Q. In those days before this event, that is,

23 before your conversation with your friend, had you

24 heard of another incident in the Kacuni area?

25 A. I heard that many people were being stopped

Page 19502

1 at the checkpoint in Kacuni. Among others, Ignac

2 Kostroman, who several days before was on his way home

3 in Kresevo, had been stopped, and I heard that he was

4 verbally abused. I think I also heard about that on

5 the Radio Busovaca.

6 Q. But you were no eyewitness to this?

7 A. No. I only heard about it.

8 Q. After the ceasefire was established in

9 February and until April, it was relatively calm, if I

10 can put it that way. You continued to work in your

11 job, as did all other people in those municipal

12 agencies?

13 A. Yes. The situation had calmed down. We

14 could even go to Split for food. The permits were

15 being issued. Some of the male employees were

16 withdrawn from the checkpoints, and permits were issued

17 for passage of goods and foodstuffs and things like

18 that.

19 Q. What happened in Travnik in 1993 -- sorry, in

20 April 1993?

21 A. I think this was close to Easter 1993. A new

22 Muslim offensive was launched. I think we were

23 attacked from the direction of Kula. My brother was

24 wounded there, so I know about this very well. There

25 was terrible shooting and people were being killed.

Page 19503

1 Q. Their Honours have had plenty of opportunity

2 to hear that. I wanted to limit the questioning to

3 what is closer to you.

4 How was that reflected in your work? Were

5 people able to come to work due to shelling?

6 A. It was very unsafe to come to work, and

7 shells were falling also around the municipal

8 building. Many people did not show up, only those

9 whose apartments and houses were close by. I believe

10 that I did not come to work for about 15, 20 days, and

11 (redacted) because she was very

12 close by. And in -- for a long period during 1993, (redacted)

13 (redacted) .

14 Q. Was this also reflected on the payment of

15 salaries?

16 A. No. Everything was blocked on all sides.

17 People were being killed. The defence lines which had

18 also been established in town. Shells were falling

19 throughout the territory of the municipality, including

20 the villages.

21 Q. Very well. Could you just tell the Trial

22 Chamber: You said that Croats did not come to work, as

23 well as Muslims, because of the difficulties in

24 travelling. But all the way to May, were there still

25 any Muslim employees in the municipal agencies in

Page 19504

1 Busovaca?

2 A. Yes. Alma Hodzic was still around in May

3 [sic] 1993. She was the last one to leave. She was a

4 very fine young woman and very hard worker.

5 Q. So up until May [sic] 1993, there were still

6 Muslim employees there?

7 A. Yes, but very few of us showed up to work.

8 Q. I understand. There was a war.

9 A. Yes. Many people were unable to come. We

10 had shortened our business days, four to five hours.

11 Q. Very well. Just one point for the Trial

12 Chamber. Why did the population -- what did the

13 population of Busovaca live on? What were the sources

14 of food supplies and so on?

15 A. We were -- the blockade was total, so it was

16 through the humanitarian aid, through UNHCR, the

17 Caritas. That is how the humanitarian aid arrived, and

18 it was distributed to all people living in the Busovaca

19 area.

20 Q. I was looking at the transcript. When you

21 spoke about Alma Hodzic, and I asked you that too, you

22 said she worked until September. However, page 3 -- I

23 think it was said "May."

24 A. That is a mistake, because I have documents

25 to support that, that it was until September.

Page 19505

1 Q. So September 1993.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. You said to the Trial Chamber

4 that there was shelling, that there were hard times for

5 any kind of organisation of life. You said that you

6 were close to the town of Busovaca, that you also had

7 experiences from your village of Kaonik. Can you tell

8 us, among the civilian population, that is, among the

9 citizens of Busovaca municipality, were there many

10 casualties?

11 A. There weren't that many, but there were

12 frequent shellings. Sometimes there would be for ten

13 days in a row. I could not let my children go out for

14 ten days in a row. Children are curious, but I was

15 afraid. It was safer for me to stay in the house. But

16 that was very difficult for the children. That made

17 them very nervous.

18 Q. In this confined space in which you lived,

19 let's say from April 1993 until the spring of 1994, do

20 you have any knowledge of the total number of

21 casualties in general?

22 JUDGE MAY: Well, we had evidence about this

23 yesterday.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

25 Your Honours.

Page 19506

1 Q. Several questions about Dario Kordic, with

2 whom, as we said at the beginning, you worked in the

3 same factory.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. He was an information specialist, and the

6 Trial Chamber knows about it. What are your -- what

7 kind of comments can you make about him regarding that

8 period?

9 A. I know that Dario, at that time, talked about

10 many problems publicly. He had a lot of understanding

11 for the low-paid workers. He was very courageous

12 during that period, because this was a period that you

13 couldn't speak openly about these things.

14 Q. You said that you personally participated in

15 certain protests, that you went out in the streets to

16 protest the delivery of weapons to be used against

17 Republic of Croatia. Do you remember Mr. Kordic from

18 those days?

19 A. Yes. He was among the leaders there. He

20 was -- showed up bare armed and confronted the soldiers

21 who were armed. And one of these convoys that was

22 going into Sarajevo had stopped near my house.

23 Q. You mean in the fall of 1991?

24 A. Yes, in the fall of 1991.

25 Q. You actually personally saw this?

Page 19507

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And these were very heated conversation with

3 the people who were escorting the convoy?

4 A. There were these huge rockets which were a

5 part of that convoy, and I was very afraid.

6 Q. Very well. Witness DE, you occasionally

7 worked with Mr. Kordic, including in the Busovaca

8 municipality in late 1991 and early 1992, but you also

9 followed his public appearances, his press conferences,

10 I assume, and so on?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. To you, was he a politician or a soldier?

13 A. Dario was primarily a politician. He was a

14 politician.

15 Q. Go ahead.

16 A. He conducted press conferences, he was

17 covering the situation, and he tried to define what was

18 going on, especially at the time when we were

19 completely encircled. He wanted the voice of the

20 people who was encircled to be heard around the world,

21 so that the world would know what was going on there,

22 and he also was working on getting humanitarian aid.

23 Q. You, madam, are no soldier or anything like

24 that.

25 A. No.

Page 19508

1 Q. Have you ever heard or seen Mr. Dario Kordic

2 issue any military orders?

3 A. No. I never heard about that. As I said, I

4 had no contact with the military, but from what I did

5 know, I never heard anything like that.

6 Q. You said that you heard and followed some of

7 the press conferences. In the area where you live,

8 which is Kaonik, the northern corner of the

9 municipality, what was the TV Busovaca signal? What

10 was the quality of the TV signal?

11 A. It was -- the signal was very bad. We -- the

12 sound was a bit better than the image, but it was

13 pretty poor.

14 Q. Further north of Kaonik, could -- do you know

15 whether the people there could receive the signal?

16 A. No. I heard that you couldn't get the

17 signal. It was -- it could only be picked up in the

18 town itself and immediate surrounding areas.

19 Q. Again, a little problem with the

20 interpretation. If I understand you correctly, you

21 said that the signal was very weak, that the sound was

22 better, but that occasionally you had neither sound nor

23 image. I think was that omitted.

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Very well. When you followed these press

Page 19509

1 conferences -- I'm sure that you saw more than one --

2 have you ever heard from Mr. Kordic that he was saying

3 anything bad, that he was saying anything bad about

4 some ethnic group, that he was inciting to violence or

5 something like that?

6 A. No, I did not. He, especially at the time of

7 complete siege, he tried to calm down the people,

8 because there was great mental pressure. Some people

9 were terribly afraid that the lines of defence would

10 collapse, because there were threats that we would all

11 be killed and slaughtered, women and children and all,

12 and people were very concerned. And he acted in such a

13 way in order to turn people towards thinking more

14 positively.

15 Q. And if he uttered any critical comments, who

16 was that directed against?

17 A. He spoke critically about the Muslim

18 extremists, especially about the presence of Muslim

19 soldiers who were foreign born, of whom there were

20 many, because people would see them at the lines of

21 defence and so on.

22 Q. Witness DE, you know that it has been alleged

23 that Mr. Kordic used Radio Busovaca to issues orders to

24 burn down the village of Loncari specifically on the

25 16th of April, 1993. Have you ever heard that this was

Page 19510

1 said, and this allegedly was said early in the morning

2 on the 16th?

3 A. From what I know, Radio Busovaca started its

4 programme at 8.00 in the morning. This was the only

5 radio station we could follow on a regular basis. It

6 started at 8.00 in the morning and worked -- was on the

7 air for four or five hours but it never worked that

8 early in the morning.

9 Q. Have you ever heard any such statement on any

10 other media?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. So let me conclude this heading on Dario

13 Kordic. What was Mr. Kordic's role in relation -- what

14 was the perception of his role of your neighbours, your

15 fellow citizens?

16 A. We all perceived it as a very positive role.

17 He encouraged people. He directed them to think

18 positively, to believe that they would be able to

19 defend ourselves, that we would survive here, that we

20 shouldn't go anywhere else.

21 Q. When we talk about it, I assume you know

22 where Mr. Kordic's family lived throughout the war?

23 A. Yes, this was one of the examples. The

24 entire family of Mr. Kordic lived in Busovaca and

25 Mr. Kordic's wife also showed optimism and said that we

Page 19511

1 should stay here.

2 Q. Another area that you were called to give

3 evidence about was -- is that there was a policy which

4 was implemented through the institutions which was a

5 policy which advocated ethnic cleansing of non-Croat

6 ethnic groups from the entire area of Herceg-Bosna.

7 You worked with all these people, you lived

8 with them. Have you ever heard of any official or

9 unofficial campaign of that kind?

10 A. No, I did not. The situation was far more

11 serious. It was a question of life and death. What I

12 am trying to say is that in a way, that was not a

13 priority. The priority was to survive, to organise the

14 life there because we had food shortages.

15 Q. No, but have you ever heard that there was a

16 policy of persecution of Muslims?

17 A. No, I never heard of any such thing, nor was

18 any such thing implemented from what I know. There may

19 have been some individual cases of -- on the part of

20 unthinking individuals who disregarded the government

21 policies and there was a war and the bad side of

22 certain individuals came to the fore.

23 Q. You mean the criminal excesses?

24 A. Yes, there were some criminal excesses, and I

25 was very sorry for people to whom such things were

Page 19512

1 done.

2 Q. You said you never heard, but I want your

3 answer on whether any of the officials at higher levels

4 or in public places or in -- through the media ever

5 advocated such a position?

6 A. Your Honours, I had contacts with top

7 leadership in the municipality. They were in charge of

8 the overall policy and, to the contrary, they directed

9 us to treat everybody well and that we should avoid any

10 such -- anything that would lead to such relations.

11 Q. Their Honours had the opportunity to hear

12 what the census figures were for Busovaca in 1991 and

13 the ratio of Muslims and Croats there, so that is not

14 in dispute. But at the time when the Washington

15 Accords were signed after the cease-fire in 1994, to

16 your knowledge, what were the percentages of territory

17 of the Busovaca municipality under control of the HVO

18 and what percentage was under the ABiH control?

19 A. The HVO controlled about 60 per cent and the

20 ABiH about 40 per cent of the overall territory.

21 Q. According to your information, can you tell

22 the Trial Chamber, given your current job, how many

23 Croats and how many Muslims were forced to leave the

24 area of Busovaca municipality, that is, their previous

25 residences?

Page 19513

1 A. The inhabitants of Busovaca municipality,

2 that is about 2.500 of them were forced to leave their

3 homes, both Muslims and Croats.

4 Part of the Croat population, after the

5 situation was calm -- had calmed down returned, and

6 these -- this meant people who were returning to homes

7 that were under the HVO control and those were about

8 700, but they came back temporarily and they came back

9 to the areas controlled by the HVO.

10 Q. But I'm referring to those who lived in the

11 areas affected by the fighting.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And now just to gain the full picture, you --

14 do you know the percentage of Muslims who have so far,

15 to date, returned to the Busovaca municipality and what

16 percentage of the Croats?

17 A. Out of these 2.500, the Muslims came back

18 into villages 100 per cent which would be about 1.000.

19 We don't have accurate data for this. They all

20 returned, and all the properties were returned.

21 And in the town, I don't know exactly,

22 about -- about 700, about 50 per cent, already 50 per

23 cent Muslims have returned to the town.

24 Q. And the Croats?

25 A. Far less, about 20 per cent of Croats.

Page 19514

1 Again, I don't have the final figure, but about 20 per

2 cent.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 Thank you for your answers.

5 Your Honours, this concludes my

6 examination-in-chief.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: No questions, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

9 Q. Witness DE, how long have you lived in

10 Kaonik?

11 A. Since 1980.

12 Q. Did you become aware of the use of the

13 barracks, former barracks at Kaonik as a detention

14 facility from at least 1992, possibly earlier?

15 A. Yes, I learned about that later, after

16 everything was over when an exchange had taken place.

17 I heard it was a reception centre or something of the

18 sort.

19 Q. Later. Could you say a date, please? When

20 did you learn about it?

21 A. I couldn't really pinpoint the date. It

22 could have been a month after the conflicts or I don't

23 really know. After the first conflict -- no, no, it

24 must have been later. It had to be spring, the spring

25 of 1993.

Page 19515

1 But that barracks is completely isolated on a

2 hill. The entrance is on the other side. I can't see

3 it from my house so I couldn't see what was going on

4 there.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. (redacted).

8 Q. And you never saw persons during 1992 and

9 1993 being taken to Kaonik? You never saw that?

10 A. No. No, I did not. I'm telling you the

11 barracks is on a hill. The entrance is on the opposite

12 side.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. Did you ever visit Kaonik?

18 A. Barracks? You mean the barracks?

19 Q. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 A. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted). I worked there prior to 1993.

Page 19516

1 I don't really know about these business deals, that

2 is, I do not know what Vatrostalna did or delivered

3 because I did not work for the commercial department.

4 Q. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 So salaries, payments, cashiers, and some of

16 the bookkeeping were kept in Busovaca because a

17 considerable part of that was in Zenica where we had

18 the mainframe computer. So the payments, the analysis

19 of payments was done in Zenica.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 (redacted). Can you

22 give, please, exactly the years from when to when;

23 month, year, month year?

24 A. April 1978 to January 1991.

25 Q. Were you in any type of managerial position

Page 19517

1 when you worked (redacted) or were you just one of

2 the workers?

3 A. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted), and I can't

6 remember really all the details.

7 Q. But you were not a managerial person; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. As I said, (redacted).

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted).

12 Q. Your education in Sarajevo as a -- did you

13 branch graduate as an economist or did you just study

14 economics?

15 A. I graduated in economics in 1978. In four

16 years' time, I graduated.

17 Q. In former communist countries, can you please

18 explain what an economist does. It appears that that

19 was not an uncommon type of area to go into, but its

20 exact function may be less clear to western academics.

21 Can you please explain?

22 A. You mean that service which I headed?

23 Q. What does an economist do, a graduate

24 economist? What types of -- what is it? Is it a

25 highly-skilled job? Is it math or is it arithmetic?

Page 19518

1 Is it management? What is being an economist. At the

2 time you finished school -- if I may just add this to

3 the question -- it was still the former Yugoslavia.

4 What role could you play in a command economy?

5 A. I was admitted to the section for analysis

6 and planning. So first we would draw up annual plans,

7 then medium-term plans for the production of fire

8 refraction materials in the plant. The technical

9 service will provide me with information as to what is

10 manufactured, how is it manufactured, what are the

11 costs, so on and so forth. Then we talked about the

12 overall costs, about the money. Then we would try to

13 calculate the prices on the basis of all the input,

14 then to compare the planned price to the market price,

15 and we would try to harmonise the two to somehow --

16 that is, starting from a unit product. We would then

17 move on to the overall output to establish --

18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. I

19 don't think we're being assisted by this. Can we move

20 on, please.


22 Q. May I ask just as a final follow question

23 about the nature of the work.

24 Did you ever have the final say in anything

25 or were you just part of a group of people giving

Page 19519

1 input?

2 A. I did have a final say when proposing plans

3 or, rather, I would present the plan to the management

4 bodies in the plant, and I would draw up the plan with

5 the help of the technical services, with the production

6 staff; that is, we would draw up plans together. We

7 would all be part of a team. Then the plan would be

8 brought down to the financial plan, and I would present

9 it to the management of the plant.

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 A. That was not the name of the department. I

Page 19520

1 was appointed in 1991 to (redacted)

2 (redacted). I was appointed by

3 the municipal government.

4 Q. And who in the municipal government?


6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

7 Your Honours. I'm not objecting to the question, but

8 we should go into private session. But when various

9 jobs of the witness are mentioned, I think that should

10 be struck out from the transcript. That is the only

11 thing I'm worried about.

12 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I can certainly go

13 around it if --

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go around it.


16 Q. Of course. Okay. The present --

17 MS. SOMERS: Well, in order -- may I address

18 the Bench on this point? In order for me to ask about

19 certain aspects of the current work, I don't know how

20 identifiably that would be with the personality.

21 JUDGE MAY: Let us go into private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19521











11 Pages 19521 19550 redacted-(closed session)














25 [Open session]

Page 19551

1 MS. SOMERS: Is it okay?

2 Q. Can you tell me please, Witness DE, what was

3 your reaction to the burning of the mosque in

4 Busovaca?

5 A. To begin with, I was not told about that,

6 because I wasn't -- because I didn't come to the office

7 for several days.

8 Q. When did it happen?

9 A. Then when I heard about it -- I don't know.

10 I couldn't tell you.

11 Q. Where was the mosque?

12 A. It was -- how shall I explain it? -- next to

13 the old school.

14 Q. Could you see it from your office? Did you

15 have pass it going home?

16 A. No. No. No, I didn't. It's a completely

17 different part of the town.

18 Q. How did you come to learn that it was gone?

19 A. Well, simply the story went around town that

20 somebody -- that one night somebody planted some

21 explosive. What else could it be? I don't know. I'm

22 telling you. I don't know. I heard it from other

23 people talking about it. I don't pass -- I don't take

24 that route all that often. There is no reason for me

25 to walk in that direction, so that I did not see that.

Page 19552

1 I only heard it from other people.

2 Q. When you heard it, did it concern you that an

3 institution as long-standing as a mosque could be the

4 target of an explosion or a burning? What was your

5 reaction?

6 A. Your Honours, at that time there was

7 destruction of business outlets. There were people

8 with a destructive way of thinking. I don't know how

9 to put it. There was a war going on. It wasn't good.

10 It wasn't good. It's never good to destroy anything.

11 If somebody invested his labour, his effort, and then

12 to bring it down, it's bad, especially if it is a

13 religious object.

14 Q. Kaonik camp, not the barracks any more but

15 the detention centre that was used by the HVO to detain

16 mainly Muslim males of military age, do you know how

17 that camp was supplied with food, where the

18 transportation came from? How did people get into that

19 camp, if you know?

20 A. I don't know. I really don't. I have no

21 idea. These are military matters, and I repeat, I

22 simply had nothing to do with military affairs or any

23 information about it. I never received any such

24 information.

25 Q. Did any of the persons, whose names shall not

Page 19553

1 be mentioned, about whom we talked recently in private

2 session, did any of those persons indicate a time spent

3 in Kaonik? As detainees, not as visitors, as

4 detainees.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Without names, please.

7 A. (redacted)

8 Q. Without names, please.

9 A. Yes. It was mentioned on one occasion. I

10 didn't know anything about it.

11 Q. Did you notice a diminution, a reduction in

12 the population of the Muslim community in Busovaca?

13 Did that catch your eye?

14 A. Yes, of course. Yes, of course. After a

15 large number of displaced persons arrived, especially

16 from the areas of Travnik and Zenica, they had lost

17 their homes, had suffered pressure before they arrived

18 in Busovaca. They came there and brought pressure on

19 the local population to move out or, rather, they were

20 looking for some accommodation for themselves and their

21 families.

22 Q. What ethnicity were these displaced persons

23 that you've just described from Zenica, Travnik? What

24 ethnicity were they?

25 A. Why, they were Croats.

Page 19554

1 Q. Did you do anything? Were you outraged at

2 the fact that an order to accommodate displaced Croats,

3 the HVO, including Dario Kordic, displaced local

4 Muslims? In fact, there were records of significant

5 numbers of expulsions to accommodate these Croats. How

6 did you view this?

7 A. Your Honours, I wasn't really all that

8 familiar with the problem. It was the social work

9 centre which took place of the displaced persons. I

10 know that they tried to prevail upon the Muslim

11 population and offered them their own homes. I know a

12 man who, because of the frequent pressure by a Zenica

13 man, had to leave his house. He went to Zenica, but

14 before that, he dropped by my place and spent the night

15 at my place with his daughter, telling me that he could

16 not stand the pressure of those displaced persons any

17 more and that he was on his way to exchange, to swap

18 houses. That was, for instance, something that I

19 experienced personally.

20 Q. To swap houses with whom?

21 A. There was a displaced person from Zenica who

22 offered his house. He had already come to Busovaca,

23 and he offered him his own house in Zenica in return,

24 in exchange. I think that there were a number of such

25 agreements. Some were even put down on paper about

Page 19555

1 these exchanges. Some thought that this would be a

2 temporary thing. Some thought this was permanent. But

3 as we know, we know that in wartime this was not a

4 thing that could stand. This would have to be

5 temporary.

6 Q. Did you have any conversations with

7 Mrs. Neslanovic after she left -- after she stopped

8 coming to work? Have you seen her since 1993?

9 A. After April 1993, I believe I did not see

10 her, and we did not have any conversations. She was an

11 employee and did her job. There were no

12 conversations. Sometimes she would stay behind for

13 overtime because there were incentives for that, but we

14 had no special conversations.

15 Q. Busovaca, you indicated, was a fairly small

16 location. Did word get back to you about her situation

17 where, in May of 1993, she was the only Muslim left in

18 her neighbourhood?

19 A. Excuse me. I did not fully understand you.

20 Q. Because Busovaca is a small enough town for

21 information to pass quickly, or rumour, did you hear

22 about Mrs. Neslanovic being the only Muslim left in her

23 neighbourhood in May 1993?

24 A. In May 1993, no, because I didn't see her.

25 She did not show up for work so I did not know whether

Page 19556

1 she was still in Busovaca or not because in April, she

2 would still come to work.

3 After that, she stopped, and I did not know

4 whether she was still in Busovaca. In fact, I don't

5 even know exactly where she lives.

6 Q. But you knew that Croats were moving into

7 Muslim homes. You did not hear then that she was given

8 five minutes to leave her house in which she had lived

9 for years and years and vacate so that a Croat family

10 could move in?

11 A. No. I hear this from you.

12 Q. Are you aware of the deaths of two Muslim

13 males whose names I shall give you. One is a Mirsad

14 Delija and the other one was Ibro Hodzic, both Busovaca

15 residents?

16 A. Yes, I know about it. I learned about it

17 later. And I regretted that I knew Mr. Hodzic because

18 he was a municipal employee.

19 Mr. Delija, I did not know, but I

20 subsequently learned that he had been killed.

21 Q. What did you learn about the death of

22 Mr. Hodzic?

23 A. I heard that he was attacked in his apartment

24 and that they wanted to evict him, but these were

25 rumours. I am not sure who it was. I know no closer

Page 19557

1 details.

2 Q. You do not know when?

3 A. No, I wouldn't know that.

4 Q. Did you know his wife?

5 A. Very superficially. I'm not sure that I

6 would recognise her.

7 Q. But he was a municipal employee in the same

8 building in which you worked?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. As a member of management, did you pay a

11 condolence call?

12 A. As I did not know the lady, and I did not

13 know where they lived. And probably, at that time, I

14 wasn't even working. I wasn't coming to work, because

15 I assumed this was after the first conflict. Times

16 were difficult.

17 Q. So your answer is no, you did not pay a

18 condolence call?

19 A. No, I did not, because I wasn't that close to

20 the family at all. I only knew him.

21 Q. What did you know about the death of

22 Mr. Delija whom you said you did not know personally?

23 A. I also heard that some men had broken into

24 his apartment or wherever he lived. That they shot,

25 because he wouldn't open up, but I did not know the man

Page 19558

1 or where his -- where he lived or anything like that.

2 Q. Do you recall what, if any, events may have

3 occurred in Busovaca the night after his death or the

4 same night of his death?

5 A. No, I don't recall. I think that at the

6 time, I wasn't coming to work and my home is about five

7 kilometres from Busovaca, and I don't know at all what

8 was going on.

9 Q. But if I were to suggest to you that there

10 were massive explosions in Muslim shops, are you

11 suggesting that the sound of a number of explosions

12 would not carry to the area of Busovaca near Kaonik

13 where you lived? Are you really telling us that?

14 A. Kaonik is five kilometres away, and it's a

15 hilly terrain, so you definitely would not have heard

16 it in Kaonik. But, as I said, at the time, I came to

17 work very infrequently and I noticed that there were --

18 that all the business premises were vandalised, that

19 they were looted, but it wasn't restricted only to

20 Muslim business premises. The scene of the crime rate

21 had definitely risen.

22 Q. How do you know it wasn't restricted to

23 Muslim business premises?

24 A. Well, I recall when I would come to work

25 occasionally that all store shops were either boarded

Page 19559

1 up or vandalised, that there were no -- there was no

2 goods in them, that everything had been taken away. It

3 looked horrible. How should I describe it? I saw -- I

4 don't know how to put it.

5 Q. Well, can you name the Croat stores or the

6 Croat shops, the businesses that were vandalised the

7 names of the owners, please.

8 A. Well, there were some state-owned premises

9 like the department store that was all vandalised and

10 everything had been taken away. I don't know what

11 shops specifically these were.

12 There were -- there was a company which --

13 there was a state-owned company, I don't know if it was

14 a Muslim-majority owned. It was socially-owned as it

15 was called then, a company, and their outlet was one of

16 those, but I remember that there was no merchandise.

17 It was all gaping, it was ghostly.

18 Q. I would like to ask you something about the

19 educational system. You commented that for the school

20 year 1992-93, we eliminated the old Yugoslavia

21 Serb-dominated socialist school programme and you

22 taught classes based on a curriculum based from

23 Mostar. Why Mostar?

24 A. The HVO government was established in Mostar,

25 and it tried to -- it made attempts to link up to the

Page 19560

1 municipal governments. There were no other curricula

2 offered. This one was offered, but a possibility was

3 left open that certain agreements be worked out with

4 the local principals so that the Muslim and Croat

5 authors would be included, but it was left for people

6 to make agreements about it.

7 Q. You have children. What Muslim historians,

8 authors, points of culture, were included? Please

9 specify.

10 A. I don't know exactly, but for instance, Mak

11 Dizdar. I personally was not involved in the details

12 of these curricula. The education specialists, the

13 principals, were involved in this, but the door was

14 open to agreements. I don't recall very much, and I

15 did not -- I did not scrutinise it that much. That was

16 left to the educators, to the teachers in schools to

17 deal with.

18 Q. Were there no textbooks available from

19 Sarajevo or was there, if you know, was there a

20 difference in the curriculum that was being taught in

21 the schools there? I realise that both places were

22 under siege, but was there a difference in the

23 curriculum? As a mother, what would you expect?

24 A. There is a number of questions here. I

25 will -- first the textbooks from Sarajevo. Those had

Page 19561

1 Yugoslav in orientation, they were not Bosnian in their

2 character. And it was under siege, the biggest

3 printing plant was all blown up, and I believe that all

4 the textbooks have been scattered, taken away, and you

5 couldn't count on textbooks from Sarajevo and there was

6 no curriculum coming out of Sarajevo.

7 Q. You had indicated difficulties in having pay

8 met and generally financial difficulties.

9 Now, it was certainly easier for the Croatian

10 Community of Herceg-Bosna because of the generous and

11 very regular support coming from Croatia. Was that

12 support not given to other parts of Bosnia?

13 A. I don't know where it went regarding the

14 education. Yes, some textbooks, some teaching aids

15 were received for free. I don't know about other

16 areas.

17 Q. You don't know about other areas where

18 Croatian assistance went to, is that what you're

19 telling us?

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 Q. Well, just one or two more questions. If

22 you'll give me a minute, please.

23 You indicated that you had regular contact

24 with Dario Kordic during the time you worked in

25 Busovaca. What was your observation as to how often he

Page 19562

1 left Busovaca during the period 1991 through -- and

2 1993?

3 A. After the episodes with the barracks and the

4 air raids, there was no -- this Secretariat for Defence

5 no longer existed, and we had to move out of the second

6 floor because it was too dangerous to stay there. So

7 nobody was there any longer. And I saw Mr. Kordic very

8 rarely, first, because I was not coming to work

9 regularly; and second, he went around to gather

10 information and attend press conferences, and I saw him

11 only infrequently.

12 Q. When was the last time you saw Mr. Kordic

13 before seeing him as an accused in this Tribunal?

14 A. I really don't remember. I cannot recall,

15 really.

16 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very briefly,

18 Your Honour.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

20 Q. Let's start from the end. We talked about

21 this education. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether

22 in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, after its

23 independence was declared, a new school curriculum for

24 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina was ever adopted?

25 A. Your Honours, such curriculum was never

Page 19563

1 adopted or never implemented in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina.

3 Q. So the schools used textbooks of the former

4 school system from the Socialist Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina when it was still part of

6 Yugoslavia?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. And the last question, if I remember

9 correctly: At the municipal level there was a flexible

10 curriculum which was not to be in favour or disfavour

11 to any of the communities?

12 A. Yes, and it was then to be worked out in

13 detail.

14 Q. Very well. Could I have Z175? Do you have

15 it perhaps in front of you?

16 A. Yes, I do, in fact.

17 Q. This document was mentioned several times.

18 Can you please read item 1 on it? What does item 1

19 say?

20 A. "In the temporary provisional" -- [No

21 interpretation]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please put

23 it on the ELMO?

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 You don't have to read it through, but would you agree

Page 19564

1 with me that these decisions demonstrated -- they are

2 issued temporarily, until the municipal -- proper

3 municipal bodies were established after the agreement

4 was reached?

5 A. Yes. It was very temporary.

6 Q. Another question was why did such a document

7 did not come to Sarajevo, and my question to you would

8 be: Did the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina

9 function in the area where you lived?

10 A. What should I tell you? It is absurd to

11 say.

12 Q. In other words, it was not?

13 A. No. Nothing functioned.

14 Q. Also, a seal was mentioned, and it states

15 "Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Mostar 1." Do

16 you know whether Mr. Kordic ever worked in Mostar in

17 1992 and 1993?

18 A. Your Honours, I don't believe that he worked

19 there. I think this was all very temporary.

20 Q. Very well. One quick question about

21 telephones. The question was whether you had a

22 telephone line in your office in 1992 and 1993. My

23 question to you would be --

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] My colleagues

25 are pointing to -- that what the witness had read was

Page 19565

1 not recorded in the transcript, and I didn't want to

2 put it on the ELMO for fear of revealing something that

3 was under protection. So maybe myself or the witness

4 could read it over again so that it be made part of the

5 record.


7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Could you please read it out slowly.

9 A. "In the provisional administrative executive

10 government of the -- Busovaca, the decisions of the

11 heads of departments shall be issued until the

12 completion of the procedure of the municipal Croatian

13 Defence Council."

14 Q. I think that we got it now. Thank you. I

15 think we will have to ask the Translation Department

16 for a correction. But let's move on to the phones.

17 Could you talk to anybody from your office

18 throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Europe, and the

19 rest of the world?

20 A. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted). So it was very dangerous to stay

23 there. And I believe I only stayed there for several

24 hours during that year, because we all moved down

25 because of the shelling.

Page 19566

1 Q. But if you needed to phone, to make a

2 telephone call, would you have had free telephone

3 access in all of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 A. No. These phone lines were in -- very

5 questionable.

6 Q. I had some questions about this attendance

7 record, but I think you answered all the questions

8 there.

9 You gave a personal example. You said that

10 person, a Muslim, was forced to exchange houses with a

11 Croat from Zenica. These were individual cases. But

12 at the municipal level, did HVO -- and this would then

13 involve Dario Kordic, I think that is the gist of the

14 question -- did they implement any policy of forced

15 resettlement of Muslims from Busovaca to any other

16 areas?

17 A. As far as I know, no. The main pressure was from those displaced

18 persons coming mostly from the Travnik, Zenica and other regions.

19 Q. Very well. You talked about Mr. Hodzic's

20 death, and you said what you knew about it. My

21 question is: After Mr. Hodzic's death, did you see on

22 television Mr. Dario Kordic expressing condolences and

23 condemning this event? Did you have an opportunity to

24 see that on television?

25 A. I'm not sure that I saw a programme of that

Page 19567

1 content. As I said, the signal was very poor where I

2 lived.

3 Q. In the beginning, there was -- there were

4 quite a few questions about the employment of Muslims

5 after the implementation of the Dayton Accords. I

6 think that there was some misunderstanding there.

7 The current municipal council is composed of

8 members from both ethnic groups. Who reached the

9 agreement that these people worked there?

10 A. Your Honours, the agreement was reached by

11 the governing parties, that is, the parties who had won

12 at the elections. The representatives of both parties

13 agreed that this municipal council be formed and

14 specified its composition and so on.

15 Q. Very well. This is not to -- just sheer

16 employment policy, this was a result of the agreement

17 of two parties?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

20 I have no further questions.

21 JUDGE MAY: Witness DE, thank you for coming

22 to the Tribunal to give your evidence. It's

23 concluded. You are free to go.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 19568

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, you've got two

2 more witnesses.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour. We have two witnesses, and as far as the

5 Defence is concerned, they may both be examined

6 tomorrow, but if necessary, we can move one to the next

7 week.

8 JUDGE MAY: I hope very much we can deal with

9 them both tomorrow. They're fairly short witnesses?

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I believe

11 so.

12 JUDGE MAY: We'll make sure that we finish

13 them tomorrow.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: Half past nine tomorrow.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

17 at 3.59 p.m., to be reconvened on

18 Thursday, the 25th day of May, 2000,

19 at 9.30 a.m.