1 Friday, 2
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I remind you
7 what we agreed upon yesterday. Mr. Kovacic will start
8 to cross-examine the witness, Mr. Maric, and it will
9 last for some 20 minutes. After that, the Prosecutor,
10 Mr. Nice, will start to cross-examine, and we have in
11 mind the fact that after the pause, at 1.00, we will be
12 back here at 2.30, hoping to have completed with this
13 witness by 4.00 so that the witness can leave.
14 WITNESS: ZORAN MARIC [Resumed]
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Maric. We have met
17 before. My name is Kovacic, I represent the Defence of
18 Mr. Cerkez. And since you are here, I should like to
19 seize this opportunity and ask you certain things,
20 because you might know them and perhaps you will help
21 us explain some matters.
22 In view of the office that you held, that you
23 told us about, in the municipality of Busovaca, you are
24 presumably familiar with the organisation of power in
25 your municipality, and you told us about that. But did
1 you know -- did you have any at least rudimentary
2 knowledge as to what was going on in the municipality
3 surrounding Busovaca?
4 A. As for the neighbouring municipalities, yes,
5 I was aware of the situation there.
6 Q. So tell us, do you remember if in Vitez there
7 was also a coalition HDZ-SDA after the elections, the
8 only difference being that the Serb side, or rather the
9 party of the Serbs, was not a member of the coalition?
10 A. I remember that these three ruling parties,
11 if I may call them that, were the strongest in the
12 municipality of Vitez too, except that the SDS was not
13 a member of the coalition.
14 Q. And as a result of the elections, Muslims and
15 Croats shared the power in Vitez too, didn't they?
16 A. Yes. The mayor was Mr. Ivica Santic, and as
17 far as I can recall, the president of the executive
18 board, that is, the government, was Fuad Kaknjo.
19 Q. And just for the sake of other people, we
20 understand it, but Ivica Santic is a Croat?
21 A. Yes, he is a Croat, and Fuad Kaknjo is a
23 Q. Thank you very much. Now, another matter
24 regarding the situation in the neighbouring
25 municipality. The chief body, which protagonised the
1 defence, the organisation of the defence against the
2 JNA aggression in 1992, the municipal body, that is,
3 was the so-called HVO Municipal Staff?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You in Busovaca also had such a staff?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And so did Vitez?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember perhaps who headed that body
10 in the municipality of Vitez, who was the commander or
11 the chairman or what of that staff?
12 A. The chairman, the president of the HVO, was
13 Mr. Ivan Santic.
14 Q. Of the government, you mean?
15 A. Yes, the government, and the staff itself,
16 which began to operate before the government was
17 founded, before the HVO, if that is what you mean. The
18 president of the assembly, the mayor, was Ivan Santic.
19 And Mr. Marijan Skopljak, I think, was responsible for
20 the executive branch.
21 Q. Do you remember if Marijan Skopljak held that
22 position even when the defence department was set up,
23 that is, when the government was set up and the defence
25 A. Yes. Yes. To the best of my recollection,
1 he headed it.
2 Q. Did you meet Mario Cerkez at the time?
3 A. I met Mario Cerkez in 1993.
4 Q. Could you please be more specific?
5 A. I think it was the latter half.
6 Q. Of 1993?
7 A. Yes, 1993.
8 Q. Latter half of 1993, you are saying?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Did you ever hear what kind of office did he
11 hold in 1992, say?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. Did you ever hear what was his position in
15 A. He commanded the Vitez Brigade.
16 Q. You wouldn't know the exact date?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. And just one subject more. In
19 the organisation of government, even the former
20 Yugoslavia, which was then taken over by the Republic
21 of Bosnia and even by the Croat Republic of
22 Herceg-Bosna, the municipalities had what in the former
23 Yugoslavia was called People's Defence secretariats.
24 Do you remember that?
25 A. I do, yes.
1 Q. And that system, that make-up, was also taken
2 over in the ensuing period. You just mentioned defence
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it correct to say that these defence
6 offices, or former secretariats, were responsible for
7 the preparation and the organisation of civilian
8 support to the military Defence organisation?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could one say that essentially all defence
11 matters in the municipality fell within the
12 jurisdiction of those civilian bodies?
13 A. All preparations went through the defence
15 Q. So what does preparation mean, actually?
16 A. For instance, lists of reservists. Well, the
17 mobilisation, the compilation of lists, based on the
18 former wartime orders, for instance, in the former,
19 that is, JNA. If somebody was an infantry man in the
20 former system, then he would again be an infantry man
21 in the defence office, and so on and so forth.
22 Q. So the defence office had a record of all the
23 individuals, depending on -- classified according to
24 the rank or the type of the service that somebody did
25 in the JNA?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And who was paying for those troops?
3 A. Well, those people were paid by the
4 government, practically.
5 Q. You mean the municipality?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But all the technical matters relating to it
8 were done by the defence office?
9 A. Yes. All the technical preparations were
10 conducted by the defence office.
11 Q. Let us take a simple example. When the
12 defence office summons a particular person, that is,
13 finds him on the records, that is the man they need,
14 called him, established that he is safe and alive, that
15 he has not lost a leg meanwhile or something happened
16 to him, and sends him to a unit, and this is where the
17 job of the defence office ends?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And as of that moment, it is the unit which
20 is responsible for that individual?
21 A. The unit which took up that man is
22 responsible for him.
23 Q. Just one question more about this. You
24 showed us when you went through documents that the
25 central administration, that is, the state of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, for all intents and purposes, did
2 not function. Would you agree that the same held true
3 of the organisation of the People's Defence?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that is why the municipalities undertook
6 to deal with more defence matters than they would
7 otherwise do.
8 A. Yes. When the complete -- when the entire
9 central administration or central government of
10 Sarajevo was completely blocked.
11 Q. So in the organisation of power in the former
12 Yugoslavia, municipalities constituted an important
13 element in the organisation of power; would you agree
14 with that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In fact, when the system fell apart in Bosnia
17 in 1992, the municipalities assumed all the power
19 A. Well, there was only the municipality which
20 could accept it and lead the people during all those
22 Q. Thank you. Finally, just one question more.
23 Can you tell us, please, if you have ever, ever seen
24 Mr. Cerkez in the municipality in Busovaca, I mean, the
25 building, the municipal hall, ever coming for any
1 official visit, meeting, session?
2 A. No, I never saw him there.
3 Q. Did you ever see him in Busovaca anywhere,
4 any place?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maric.
7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have no
8 further questions. [In English] Thank you.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
10 Mr. Kovacic.
11 Mr. Nice, please proceed.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
13 Q. Mr. Maric, when did you first have contact
14 with Mr. Kordic's lawyers, please?
15 A. A year and a half ago.
16 Q. When was your summary first drafted, please?
17 A. The summary was written when I arrived here
18 on the 28th of May.
19 Q. When was it first drafted, please?
20 A. Here, when I arrived.
21 Q. The 28th of May was last -- I can't remember
22 now. This week, you mean?
23 A. Sunday. Sunday. It was Sunday.
24 Q. It was all drafted and translated on the
25 Sunday, was it, or the Sunday and the Monday?
1 A. I arrived on Thursday, and on Sunday I
2 prepared this summary for signature.
3 Q. When you first met the lawyers for
4 Mr. Kordic, where did you meet them?
5 A. In Busovaca.
6 Q. Did you meet them in any other place since
8 A. No.
9 Q. The documents that you've produced, who
10 selected them?
11 A. These documents, I saw them here. I did not
12 see them before because my whole archive, when I left
13 the municipality of Busovaca, stayed behind in the
15 Q. Who selected the documents, then, that have
16 been produced to the Court?
17 A. Documents, well, they -- here.
18 Q. Is the position that so far as you know the
19 entire Busovaca archive still exists?
20 A. I left Busovaca in 1994. Whether it still
21 exists or whether it does not exist, I cannot really
22 say because for the past six years I've ...
23 Q. These documents, you see, that have been
24 produced to us are all sequentially numbered from 1992
25 through to one document or a couple of documents in
1 1993, and they all have a very similar heading to them;
2 not all identical but similar. Do these appear to be
3 originals that have been copied from the archives, or
5 A. They are originals from the archive -- copies
6 of the originals from the archive.
7 Q. Who had access to the archive in order to
8 make this selection, please? You must know; it must
9 have been explained to you.
10 A. I'm telling you, I was with these gentlemen a
11 year and a half ago, and I arrived here, and as for
12 these documents, I don't know who did it because I
13 don't know. But they are my documents, indeed.
14 Q. One notices that there is no official
15 letterhead in 1992 and that the letterhead has simply
16 been typed on in all cases. Why was that?
17 A. That is not true at all, what you are
18 saying. These are originals which were written on the
19 day for which these documents were written.
20 Q. Yes. The letterhead has been typed on; it
21 hasn't got a printed or a formal appearance to it, save
22 in the case of one of the documents which, I think, is
23 number 262/1, for the 11th of November, where there is
24 a formal title page. Were you just typing on the
25 headings of these documents in 1992?
1 A. We were typing headings, and we also had the
2 letterhead forms which were done by the HVO with its
3 full name.
4 Q. Any particular reason for not using the
5 letterhead forms on nearly all of these documents?
6 A. At times we used one type; at other times we
7 used the other type. But as a rule we used the typed
9 Q. Are there any other documents that you've
10 been able to refer to before coming to give evidence
11 here, like a diary, if you have one, for example?
12 A. No, I never kept a diary.
13 Q. Any other documents that you've been able to
14 refer to help you give evidence here today?
15 A. The events in the territory of my
16 municipality have stuck in my memory, it is all
17 imprinted on my mind, so that is how I could speak
18 about those events.
19 Q. Is the overall reality that you're describing
20 for the Judges that the Croats in Busovaca were totally
21 blameless at all times? Is that what you're describing
22 for us?
23 A. I wish to portray the situation as it was in
24 Busovaca. Nobody is infallible. Everybody has
25 mistakes; everybody errs. And there were murders and
1 all sorts of things, and nobody denies that all those
2 things happened.
3 Q. Let's have the full strength from you,
4 please, of how bad the HVO and the Croats were.
5 Murders and all that sort of thing, shall we start with
7 What murders in the period 1992/1993 are
8 inexcusable but attributed to the HVO, please?
9 A. Could you repeat the question, please. I
10 didn't understand it.
11 Q. Of course. Tell us about, enumerate, the
12 murders in 1992 and 1993 that are inexcusable and that
13 are attributed to the HVO or the HDZ.
14 A. Murders, to begin with, any perpetrator of a
15 murder should be punished regardless of who or what he
16 is. But what was done by extremists, that is, what I
17 would call people who committed misdeeds which are
18 attributed to the HVO, I condemned the incidents; the
19 incident when Mr. Ibrahim Hodzic was murdered, Mirsad
20 Delija, and those horrendous things that happened in
22 You should also know that I condemn also that
23 which Muslim units did to Croats, because 2.700 men,
24 Croats, died in these lands. Every life is significant
25 for man.
1 Q. Let's focus, then, on the things you've told
2 us about. Who murdered Ibrahim Hodzic?
3 A. Ibrahim Hodzic, the investigation was under
4 way. As far as I know, it was a policeman, a military
6 Q. Name?
7 A. I cannot remember because the investigation
8 was under way.
9 Q. But this was a military policeman killing in
10 the course of work for the HVO; correct?
11 A. Not that he killed. The problem has to be
12 approached from a different angle. There were such
13 things happening. If somebody lost a brother, a
14 father, then the hatred in him grows towards
15 everybody. And the individual who commits such a crime
16 must be punished, must be called to account, regardless
17 of who or what he is.
18 Q. Well, then, perhaps you'd like to tell us who
19 murdered Mirsad Delija and why.
20 A. I have already said these investigations were
21 under way. The reports were not yet final while I was
22 still in the territory of the municipality of
24 Q. How long did you remain in the territory of
25 Busovaca, please?
1 A. In the territory of Busovaca, it is that part
2 while I was in the government practically.
3 Q. Until? Until when?
4 A. Until April 1994.
5 Q. Between 1993 and 1994, are you saying that
6 this report into Mirsad Delija's death was never taken
7 to any form of conclusion?
8 A. The investigation was being conducted and the
9 investigators were doing their job. I did not receive
10 it, the report.
11 Q. Presumably, and assuming that the archive of
12 the HVO is complete, the archive from which these
13 documents are taken, the report on Mirsad Delija's
14 death will be in the archive, won't it?
15 A. The investigation was conducted by the
16 military police.
17 Q. And the report would still have gone to the
18 HVO, wouldn't it?
19 A. I did not get it, and therefore I cannot
20 speak about what I do not know.
21 Q. Please help me. Would the report of the
22 police into the death of Mirsad Delija have gone to the
23 HVO and be in its archive?
24 A. That is the way it should be, but it did not
25 arrive while I was there in 1994. The investigation
1 was under way and I cannot tell you exactly because I
2 did not get the document.
3 Q. Knowing that you were coming here to give
4 evidence, you didn't ask to see that document, and
5 nobody showed it to you.
6 A. No, I did not ask for it.
7 Q. Let's turn, then, to Ahmici, since you
8 mentioned it. Who committed the appalling crimes of
10 A. From what I learned, there was heavy fighting
11 there, and I cannot say who committed that because this
12 was another municipality and I was not present there.
13 But I condemn every crime, especially the one committed
14 in Ahmici.
15 Q. Yes. You were mayor of a town, just tell us
16 again, how many kilometres from Ahmici?
17 A. The town is about 15 kilometres away.
18 Q. A few minutes in a car; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you telling us that in all the time since
21 then, with all your seniority in office, you can't tell
22 these Judges who committed -- I'm just looking for the
23 terms you used -- those horrendous things that happened
24 in Ahmici? Can you not tell us, please, who did it?
25 A. I cannot say, because I wasn't present.
1 There was also fierce fighting in the territory of
2 Busovaca municipality. You have to know that we were
3 non-stop shelled in Busovaca. We were attacked by
4 almost 20.000 people, and we were defending ourselves.
5 The ratio was 10:1. That was terrible. You couldn't
6 move freely so that you could come and see. Everybody
7 was dealing with their own problems.
8 Q. That doesn't stop your receiving information,
9 then or thereafter, about this atrocity. Please tell
10 me, or tell the Judges: Are you saying you have at no
11 time learnt anything about who were the perpetrators of
12 these horrendous crimes?
13 A. Your Honours, I wasn't there at that time,
14 and I don't know what happened, but I heard that that
15 day was terrible, that a lot of people were killed,
16 both civilian and military. I cannot tell you what I
17 don't know. I took an oath here to tell the truth, and
18 I want to say the truth, because I experienced this
19 truth personally. I know what it was like to be there
20 in that area.
21 Q. These questions started with my asking you if
22 the Croats were blameless, and you were to tell us in
23 what way they weren't blameless. So far you've been
24 unable to name, I think, any murderer or any
25 perpetrator of a crime.
1 Tell me this: When you learnt of the arrest
2 of Blaskic and the later surrender by himself or by the
3 State of Croatia of Kordic, did you think these men had
4 been wrongly charged, from all you knew of them?
5 A. From what I know about these people,
6 Mr. Tihomir Blaskic, Mr. Dario Kordic, and Mr. Cerkez,
7 I know that these are innocent men.
8 Q. As the mayor of Busovaca at the critical
9 time, you were the holder of detailed and relevant
10 information, weren't you?
11 A. I was leading the civilian affairs during the
12 war and I was getting exclusively civilian orders; that
13 is, I issued orders in respect of civilian affairs.
14 And the military units and military commanders
15 conducted the military affairs, and those were in their
17 Q. Well, on one answer you say that these men
18 are innocent, to your knowledge, and the next answer
19 you try to distinguish between civilian and military
20 affairs. My question to you was quite particular: Are
21 you and were you the holder of detailed and relevant
22 information about what was happening that led these two
23 men to trial in this institution? Your answer is yes,
24 isn't it; you had and have a lot of relevant
1 A. Your Honours, I would like to say this: A
2 man who commits something wrong, who commits an evil,
3 is a criminal. A person of whom no such thing was
4 proved cannot be considered a criminal. I know a
5 little bit about law, because I was involved in it a
6 little bit.
7 Q. I wonder if you could just help us with
8 this: Did it ever occur to you, with your position of
9 central knowledge, to offer to help the Office of the
10 Prosecutor with what your knowledge was?
11 A. I said that the documents remained in the
12 archives. They were accessible. I left in 1994; I
13 left the municipality, that is, and I cannot speak to
14 the whereabouts of the documents.
15 Q. The answer to my question is: No, it never
16 occurred to you to get in touch with the Prosecutor
17 here and say, "Well, I actually know what happened.
18 Let me come and help you and tell you," did it?
19 A. I came today and I want to present the events
20 which occurred in the Busovaca municipality.
21 Q. Who replaced you as mayor, and when?
22 A. How do you mean, when? What year?
23 Q. Yes.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,
25 did you hear the question which you were asked?
1 A. I heard the question, but I did not quite
2 understand what the gentleman was driving at.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The question
4 was the following: You left Busovaca in 1994. Who
5 replaced you as mayor, and when? You either know, and
6 then you'll answer. In case you don't know or you've
7 forgotten, this is not really here something where we
8 should exercise our memories here; you should simply
9 declare that you don't know. But the question was very
10 simple and clear.
11 A. Your Honours, I just had not understood what
12 the gentleman was asking me. But I do know.
13 Mr. Glavocevic replaced me.
14 MR. NICE:
15 Q. Thank you. And he then remained mayor until
17 A. He remained mayor until -- I know that he was
18 replaced by Mr. Niko Grubesic, and then he in turn was
19 replaced by Nikica Petrovic, who was the mayor until a
20 few days ago.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
22 Mr. Nice.
23 Mr. Maric, did you come back to Busovaca
24 since 1994?
25 A. Yes, I did come to Busovaca. I was heading
1 the office of the Central Bosnia canton for forestry
2 and agriculture till 1996, and then after that the
3 Central Bosnia HDZ cantonal office, and now I am
4 officially the president of the parliament of the
5 Central Bosnia canton. So these are the duties that I
6 have held since.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Do you live currently in Busovaca?
9 A. I reside in Busovaca with my family, and
10 every day I commute to Travnik, where my office is.
11 And I have to say that Travnik has become a very Muslim
12 town, because a lot of Croats have been expelled from
13 there. And at first it was very difficult, but I have
14 managed to successfully discharge my duties there.
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. NICE:
17 Q. Have you maintained contact with those mayors
18 who have come after you, Mr. Grubesic and Mr. Petrovic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you aware of any policy expressed by one
21 of those mayors to potential Prosecution witnesses in
22 this case, discouraging at least one of them from
23 coming to give evidence here?
24 A. I never heard of anything like that.
25 Q. Let me turn to some generalities. But before
1 I do, there's no aspect of Busovaca life and there's no
2 part of Busovaca territory that was kept from you at
3 the material time, was there?
4 A. You should know that Busovaca, with all its
5 territory, which was populated by Croats, Bosniak
6 Muslims and the Serbs, was one integral territory;
7 however, through attacks and warfare, the territory has
8 been split up. And now we're engaging in building up
9 the Federation, so now we're looking at it as one unit
10 and --
11 Q. I'll cut you short, because we have limited
12 time. At the material time, that is, 1992, 1993,
13 possibly 1994, there was no aspect of Busovaca life or
14 Busovaca territory that was kept from you; you were
15 free to travel everywhere, you met everyone, you were
16 able to get to know what was going on?
17 A. How was it possible, when during the conflict
18 a Croat could not come to the area controlled by the
19 ABiH? You couldn't leave the territory of Busovaca
20 municipality, that is, the area controlled -- the area
21 of town controlled by the HVO.
22 Q. Very well. I'm going to press on with this.
23 I'm going to ask you about various people and ask
24 whether you or they should know more about Mr. Kordic
25 and his involvement at the time. Should you know as
1 much as or more than Milorad Jovic of what Mr. Kordic
2 was doing? Who should know more about Mr. Kordic, you
3 or Milorad Jovic?
4 A. You should know, Milorad Jovic is a Serb.
5 Regardless of whether he's a Serb or a Muslim or a
6 Croat in Busovaca, whoever talked to Mr. Kordic knew
7 him, knew him well.
8 Q. And the other names are these: Nikica
9 Petrovic, Milenko Bilanovic, Anto Stipac, and the man
10 Hodzic, who was vice-president of the HDZ ABiH. Now,
11 as between you and those men, who should know Kordic
12 better or best? You?
13 A. Everyone knew Kordic, knew him from the
14 school days. And we socialised. When we started up
15 the party, we were together. We had contacts non-stop,
16 so I know Kordic as a good person.
17 Q. We've heard that before, and I'll come back
18 to it, in which case I'll move on, because I want to
19 save time. If you can't answer the question, I'll move
21 Mr. Kordic's job before all this developed
22 was actually rather a modest one, wasn't he? He ran
23 the newspaper for the business and was a publicity
25 A. At first he worked as a journalist for the
2 Q. But he was a keen member of the league of
3 communists at his factory?
4 A. He was a member of -- it was open to anyone
5 who wanted to join.
6 Q. Please answer the question. He was a keen
7 and active member of the League of Communists?
8 A. I don't know that, because I never was a
9 member of the League of Communists.
10 Q. When the new party was formed, there was
11 obviously an opportunity for ambitious people.
12 Kordic's father was ambitious for him, wasn't he, Pero
14 A. Anybody had a right to form a party if they
15 wanted to, whether they were ambitious or not. That
16 depended on what they wanted to do. Perhaps I was more
17 ambitious. That is a matter of judgement. If you do
18 not value yourself, how are you going to be able to
19 value anyone else?
20 Q. It would help me if you'd answer the
21 question. Kordic was ambitious and his father was
22 ambitious for him too, yes or no?
23 A. Any person who joined the party had an
24 ambition. Everybody was trying to see a reflection of
25 himself in a leader who would lead the party well, who
1 would show the way.
2 Q. If we look ahead, confirm this if it's
3 right: In due course that party established, without
4 any involvement of the Muslims, a government called the
5 HVO; correct?
6 A. That is not correct. Muslims were also part
7 of the HVO government.
8 Q. The establishment of the HVO was without
9 election, without referendum; it was simply an
10 imposition; correct?
11 A. A referendum was not necessary. Through the
12 referendum we achieved an independent
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We achieved that, thank God, on
14 the 1st of March, 1992.
15 Q. The HVO was created by a political party and
16 it was imposed on an area without referendum, without
17 election; true or false?
18 A. A referendum was not necessary. We were
19 involved in a struggle to preserve the identity of a
20 people. This happened after the attacks of the JNA
21 against the Slovenia --
22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,
23 the question, once again, is a very simple one.
24 What you call the HVO is not something which
25 was the result of an election; those people were simply
1 not elected. That was the question. Please answer
2 with yes or no; there is no reason for you to comment
3 on it.
4 A. There was no referendum; that is true. There
5 was no referendum.
6 MR. NICE: Thank you.
7 Q. So that your area fell under the government
8 of something that had been created by a single
9 political party; that's correct, isn't it?
10 A. What I can state is that it is true that it
11 was created by the Croat Democratic Union, which was
12 the leading party representing the Croatian people in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina because it received support of over
14 90 per cent of the Croatian population.
15 Q. The experience of communist states, and of
16 your state as well, was that once a body, political or
17 military, has power and exercises it, it's very
18 difficult to take it away, what you all discovered
19 through decades of Tito's leadership; correct?
20 A. This period after 1990, when a new society
21 was formed, when the new parliaments were established,
22 this is something completely different from the Titoist
23 regime which was in power until then.
24 Q. I'm not asking you about the new system. I'm
25 asking you about the experience of communist states;
1 namely, that once you take power, if you take it with
2 sufficient firmness, it's very difficult to have it
3 taken away from you; correct?
4 A. You should know that everyone wants to win
5 the elections and then keep the power. That is the
6 goal of every party, to rule as long as possible, and
7 it is up to the population to support it or not.
8 Q. What happened here -- and I'm just looking at
9 things overall before I come to matters of detail -- is
10 that the party's ambition grew and with it,
11 Mr. Kordic's ambition; that's correct, isn't it?
12 A. It's not just Kordic's ambition. The
13 ambitions of every member of the party grew. Everyone
14 wanted that his party grew and prospered in a
15 democratic way, along the democratic principles.
16 Q. What we're going to see as we review the
17 history is Mr. Kordic first in civilian clothes, then
18 in civilian clothes with a firearm, and then in
19 uniform, and that parallels the development of your
20 party and the government going from being a party to a
21 government and to a government operating by force;
23 A. Sir, it's not like you're saying. You should
24 know the circumstances and the events that were taking
25 place from 1990 onward. Events kept succeeding each
1 other, and very quickly the war and the refugees, and
2 you had to defend your home. There were a host of
3 problems. Every man in those territories wanted to
4 preserve their homes. We defended ourselves; we did
5 not attack anyone. If you had spent only one minute
6 there, you would have experienced the same stress and
7 the same pain, and --
8 Q. I must stop you because we don't have time --
9 A. -- we have hundreds of people who are sick
10 from it.
11 Q. By the end of the period with which we are
12 particularly concerned, had Mr. Kordic and Colonel
13 Blaskic started to fall out, to your and everybody
14 else's knowledge?
15 A. I don't know that there were any quarrels.
16 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that in the
17 latter part of the period with which we are concerned,
18 or even in the middle part, Mr. Kordic was taking
19 military decisions and authority, to the damage of the
20 population it may be, but he was taking them, and that
21 this was causing difficulties as between him and
22 Blaskic; is that true?
23 A. Not true. Mr. Dario Kordic was a politician
24 and he was a politician throughout, and Mr. Tihomir
25 Blaskic was the chief of staff and he conducted the
1 military matters. And the Main Staff was in Mostar,
2 under the command of General Petkovic.
3 Q. I'll come back to that topic later in its
4 sequence. But you're maintaining, as I think you are
5 from your answers, that your party was essentially
6 democratic in some way. Tell us, please, why Mr. Cicak
7 was so unacceptable to the party, when all he was
8 voicing was democratic opinions.
9 A. The Croat Democratic Union is a democratic
10 party. Mr. Dragutin Cicak, who was for a period of
11 time the vice-president of the party in Busovaca, was a
12 man who came from Zenica -- so he was not a local man
13 from Busovaca; he only had a weekend home in
14 Busovaca -- but this is a man who, due to mental
15 illness, took an early retirement. He had good and bad
16 sides like any other person who may have good or bad
18 Q. You and, if I may say so, you'll be helped to
19 know, all the other Defence witnesses are now referring
20 to his mental illness. Tell me, please, when it first
21 seemed to you important to mention this man's mental
22 illness as in some way significant.
23 A. He often complained of being ill, and when he
24 was supposed to come up with certain programmes he
25 often said, "I just cannot do this because I have
2 Q. He resigned on the 7th of April of 1991 --
3 the document is 2732; I'm not going to take us through
4 it for the moment for want of time -- but that wasn't
5 the end of his involvement in these matters, was it?
6 A. I would like to see the documents to refresh
7 my memory.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. NICE: Document 2732, if we could make
10 that available. I'm so sorry.
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
12 Mr. Nice.
13 Mr. Maric, you told us that Mr. Cicak was
14 suffering from mental illness.
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Why do you
17 assume that he had a mental illness rather than another
18 type of illness? You say that he was tired; he could
19 have had any physical illness. Why do you speak of a
20 mental illness?
21 A. Because Mr. Dragutin Cicak told me personally
22 that he had such an illness. Personally we were good
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. NICE:
1 Q. You wanted to have a look at the document.
2 It's coming your way.
3 MR. NICE: If we put on the ELMO the second
4 sheet in English -- sorry, the third sheet of that
5 document, which begins, "I have neither the will nor
6 the strength to fight against the fools ..."
7 Q. Dealing with this point quickly, it's true,
8 isn't it, that in his resignation he identified Ivan
9 Pervan as somebody he couldn't work with and maintained
10 right at that early stage that he was being supported
11 by Kordic, although Kordic was somebody he was prepared
12 to discuss with in public; correct?
13 A. No, it is not correct, because if you can
14 tell a priest that he's crazy, that he's not all there,
15 then I think it speaks for itself. A man who is a
16 priest for more than 6.000 men, a man who has been
17 helping people all along, to say something like that to
18 such a priest, I think it shows quite clearly what kind
19 of a man that is.
20 Q. You haven't answered my question but we don't
21 have enough time to go into questions twice. So if you
22 don't answer the first time, then I'm going to move
24 On the 13th of August, in Busovaca, your
25 party of 1991 was already calling the man Kljuic to
1 account, a senior and influential politician. Was that
2 because he was a democrat by instinct and you didn't
3 like his contrary views?
4 A. You ought to know that Mr. Stjepan Kljuic, as
5 the president of the HDZ, never came to Busovaca. And
6 he was married -- of course, his personal thing -- to a
7 Muslim from Busovaca, and she also had some relatives
8 there. He would go to other places but he never came
9 to Busovaca.
10 Q. That, no doubt, was his decision. But your
11 local party, ambitious for power, was summoning Kljuic
12 and calling him to account as soon after its creation
13 as August of 1991. This is all a reflection of local
14 ambition, isn't it?
15 A. No, it is not a reflection -- it is not a
16 reflection of local ambition. But if a president is to
17 lead a people, then he must do it honestly and fairly
18 rather than leave that people to be destroyed by
19 somebody else.
20 Q. Things progressed, and we know that on the
21 4th of November of 1991, you can see the document if
22 you want to, there was a meeting of the Travnik
23 regional community, with people attending, I think,
24 including Cicak. On that occasion a confidential memo
25 was sent to Tudjman -- we don't have the memo, I don't
1 think -- or reference was made to such a memo that had
2 been sent in October.
3 You all swore yourselves to secrecy or
4 declared yourselves to secrecy over the memo. What was
5 the memo about?
6 A. I'd like to see it, if possible, to remind
8 Q. Z20. Now, we can see that you were
9 attending, and under number 2 of the conclusions, which
10 can go on the ELMO, please, conclusion number 2:
11 Confidential conclusion of the 22nd of
12 October, sent to Dr. Franjo Tudjman, unanimously
13 supported by members of the Croatian Regional Community
14 of Travnik, promising to respect the secrecy of this
16 What was it about?
17 A. It is true that I was at a meeting, which is
18 shown here. It is quite true that the conclusion is
19 supported unanimously on the 22nd of October, 1991,
20 which is sent to the president of the HDZ. But you
21 should know that the Croat Democratic Union is a party
22 of every Croat, regardless of where he lives, be it in
23 Canada, Australia, Busovaca --
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric, I
25 would ask you to answer the questions that you are
1 being asked, in order to be able to finish -- complete
2 your cross-examination within the time limit; otherwise
3 you will have to come back here on Monday. We really
4 have a schedule.
5 What can you tell us precisely about the
6 documents addressed to President Tudjman? Please
7 answer the question. And all the rest about what was
8 the HDZ, we know; we've been informed.
9 A. As for this document sent to Dr. Franjo
10 Tudjman, it was said that the Croat Democratic Union
11 would respect the democratic principles in the rest of
12 Croats and all other people.
13 MR. NICE: That hardly requires secrecy. I
14 would have thought public acclamation might be more
15 appropriate. Wouldn't that be the case? Why secrecy,
17 A. It is specified here that the secrecy, it is
18 simply the code secret, because the majority of
19 documents were strictly confidential; that is, that was
20 the marking taken over from the old system.
21 Q. You know that Croatia, via Dr. Franjo
22 Tudjman, assisted, and significantly, in the conduct of
23 the war, including the war in Central Bosnia; correct?
24 A. Croatia was helping Bosnia-Herzegovina,
25 helping equally the Croat and the Bosniak people.
1 Q. By the time of the fighting between the
2 Croats and the Bosnians, are you suggesting that
3 Dr. Franjo Tudjman was helping the Bosnians at that
4 stage, or was he just helping the Croats?
5 A. He was helping them both.
6 Q. Well, what help was he giving to the Bosnians
7 that they might, what, that they might do something to
8 the Croats? Tell us, please.
9 A. He was helping both the Croats and the
10 Muslims with food, other supplies, and all that was
11 necessary to survive in these territories. He received
12 over 500 displaced persons. There is hardly any other
13 state which received so many people as Croatia.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,
15 under these circumstances, if you are telling us that
16 Mr. Tudjman was supporting the Bosnians and the Croats,
17 what were the objectives and the motivations of
18 Mr. Tudjman?
19 A. The motives of Mr. Tudjman were that
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as an autonomous state, is within
21 its borders, because Croatia was the first one to
22 recognise Bosnia after its independence, which was
23 acquired in a referendum on the 1st of March, when the
24 Croats and the Muslims and a part of loyal Serbs voted
25 for its independence.
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
2 Mr. Maric. I'm speaking about the time period where
3 the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims
4 started, which means from 1993 onwards, from January
5 1993 onwards. Did Mr. Tudjman continue to support
6 Croats and Muslims, the two parties which were opposing
7 one another?
8 A. Yes. Tudjman was supporting them both.
9 MR. NICE:
10 Q. Are you suggesting that Tudjman was sending
11 arms to both sides, or military personnel to both
13 A. Well, weapons were arriving in the
14 territories of Bosnia-Herzegovina invariably through
15 Croatia, because the only roads that took one to
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina were across Croatia, whether it
17 arrived legally or, as some call it, illegally.
18 Q. I want to know -- it's a simple question, and
19 I'll make it simpler -- was Tudjman providing arms to
20 the Muslims to use against the Croats; is that your
22 A. Tudjman never said that the Croats and the
23 Muslims should have a conflict.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] That was not
25 the question you were asked. The question that you
1 were asked is: Did Mr. Tudjman send arms to Muslims
2 for the Croats? Please answer by saying "yes" or
4 A. I cannot say exactly whether it was being
5 sent or not.
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. But he certainly sent arms to the Croats,
8 didn't he?
9 A. Well, everybody was trying to manage. Even
10 Saudi Arabia was sending arms to the Muslims side, and
11 the Croats did not get them. Instead of food, they
12 were getting ammunition in tins. There are documents
13 about that.
14 Q. I'm going to interrupt you, Mr. Maric, to
15 save time. You have another chance to answer the
16 question, please. Tudjman sent arms to the Croats; yes
17 or no?
18 A. Sometimes he did, sometimes he did not --
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. -- because he was in a very difficult
21 situation too.
22 Q. And you know perfectly well some of Tudjman's
23 thinking, don't you, because you went to meetings with
25 A. I cannot know what other people think, but I
1 was present at meetings when Mr. Tudjman said, in so
2 many words, that we were fighting democratically, and
3 he never mentioned that we were fighting against the
5 Q. How many meetings with Tudjman did you go to?
6 A. Six meetings all in all, as far as I can
7 remember at the moment, that is, since the party was
8 formed until 1999.
9 Q. How many meetings did you go to with Tudjman
10 in 1992?
11 A. 1992?
12 Q. Mm-hmm.
13 A. In 1992 I did not go.
14 Q. 1993?
15 A. 1993 I was present at one, and at the time
16 when there was a ceasefire.
17 Q. That was in March of 1993, wasn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. About a month before Ahmici. What was the
20 purpose of that discussion, please?
21 A. You can already assume that it did not
22 initiate the conflict. We went to talk to President
23 Tudjman about the cessation of any further activities
24 regarding conflicts in the territory of Central Bosnia,
25 to come and talk to President Alija to withdraw his
1 extremists who had initiated those problems, to avoid
2 conflicts, because President Tudjman was an authority
3 and he could talk to presidents.
4 Q. Did you go to take his instructions on how to
5 conduct yourselves in the coming months?
6 A. We did not go to get instructions.
7 Q. It's right, isn't it, that amongst the means
8 by which arms were brought to Busovaca from Tudjman was
9 Bruno Susnjar, who regularly collected arms; would that
10 be correct? We've heard evidence about this.
11 A. I cannot say exactly if he was the one who
12 brought arms. I know that arms were arriving, that
13 some individuals brought arms.
14 Q. Anto Sliskovic, did he bring them?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Well, who did? We've heard those two names
17 mentioned, but you tell us. You were there. Who
18 brought the arms from Tudjman? There's also the man
19 Franjo Kristo, a police chief. But never mind. You
20 tell us.
21 A. I don't know exactly all the people who
22 brought arms. All I know is that arms arrived.
23 Q. Are you telling us that you're now not able
24 to remember, that it's some form of amnesia, or that
25 you never really knew? Which is it?
1 A. I can't remember all the people who brought
2 them. I know that arms arrived in the territory of the
3 municipality of Busovaca.
4 Q. You don't have to remember them all. Can you
5 just help us with one name of somebody who brought arms
6 from Tudjman to Busovaca, please?
7 A. To begin with, Tudjman did not bring them,
8 because arms were arriving through Croatia, because
9 arms arriving, as I said, were arriving through
10 Croatia. Whether it was brought in another country, in
11 other states, I do not know that and I cannot tell you.
12 Q. Kordic had been elected to a job in defence.
13 Why defence? What skills did he have?
14 A. As for when the government was formed, then,
15 in 1990, Mr. Kordic -- and the regulations, the
16 conditions, the qualifications that had to be met to
17 hold that office were met by Mr. Kordic. What it
18 required was to have somebody with a university degree,
19 and he had that.
20 Q. But no special qualifications for defence of
21 any kind; correct?
22 A. You do not need any special education for
23 that, to be able to head such an office, because he had
24 under him individuals who were responsible for
25 individual departments in that office.
1 Q. On the 18th of November of 1991, last event
2 before we move to 1992, there was a meeting in Grude,
3 and the result of that was that Kordic became a
4 vice-president; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I think you told us this: Senior
7 representatives of various municipalities in which the
8 Croats lived formed the presidency; is that right?
9 A. Excuse me. I didn't hear the interpretation
10 of the first half of the sentence. Sorry.
11 Q. I think I was quoting from paragraph 14 of
12 your summary, if my notes are correct, and what you
13 said in paragraph 14 of your summary was: "The senior
14 representatives of the various municipalities in which
15 Croats lived formed the presidency of the HZ HB, which
16 became a legislative body."
17 Now --
18 A. Yes. Quite. Yes, that is right. For
19 instance, I, as a municipal mayor -- if a Croat was a
20 municipal mayor, then he joined that presidency, and
21 presidents of the executive board were the second
22 position. For instance, in our case it was a Muslim,
23 Asim Sunulahpasic. There were many municipalities
24 where that was not the case and where Croats also were
25 the heads of local governments.
1 Q. And so Kordic, but correct me if I've got
2 this wrong, Kordic becomes the vice-president with an
3 interest in a particular area; is that about right? Is
4 that what you're saying?
5 A. What do you mean? What do you mean, with a
6 particular responsibility? I don't understand you.
7 Q. I'm asking you, really, built on what you
8 said in your statement. "The senior representatives of
9 the various municipalities formed the presidency." So
10 it looks as though the composition of the presidency is
11 municipality-based, and therefore the representatives
12 on the presidency may represent bits of the area, bits
13 of the municipalities.
14 Kordic became a vice-president. Was that to
15 reflect his interest in a particular part of the
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are you sure about that?
19 A. No, Mr. Kordic was elected vice-president of
20 the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna.
21 Q. Well, then, help me with this: In the local
22 area, who was the senior politician if it wasn't
23 Mr. Kordic?
24 A. As I have said, Mr. Kordic was a
25 vice-president. The 18th of November, 1991 is when the
1 Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna was founded, and that
2 was that umbrella organisation and he became its
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. If that is what you mean.
6 Q. In your area, Central Bosnia --
7 A. That's it.
8 Q. -- was there any politician of the party
9 senior to Kordic, or was he really the local man? Was
10 he the local political --
11 A. He continued to be president of the Busovaca
13 Q. Yes. That's still not an answer to the
14 question. Was he -- go on.
15 A. He was the president of the Busovaca HDZ, I
16 was the mayor of the municipality, and so in that
17 hierarchy we were practically on a par, because the
18 presidency consisted of all the representatives of
20 Q. See, when we come to the fighting and the
21 war, the question we're going to want your help with is
22 who was controlling the military? Do you understand?
23 Who was actually running the war? I want to know, and
24 I'll give you advance notice so that you can think
25 about it, what politician other than Kordic had the
1 seniority in your local area to command the soldiers?
2 Would you like to deal with it now?
3 A. I want to answer. The presidency of the
4 HZ HB, headed by President Boban. He was the pivotal
5 figure, President Mate Boban, a master of sciences.
6 During wartime operations, the president of
7 the HZ HB, that is, the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna,
8 was Master Boban, master of arts, and he was the
9 commander in chief, the head of everything. The
10 government which was established later was headed by
11 Prime Minister Jadranko Prlic, and it had its
13 I explained it to you yesterday when I
14 testified that the army was run by Milivoje Petkovic,
15 who was hierarchically -- and he hierarchically followed
16 the chain of command downward by military districts;
17 and in Central Bosnia it was Mr. Tihomir Blaskic, and
18 then again in the descending order to brigade
19 commanders. That was the hierarchy which was set up.
20 The government -- you are confusing
21 governments. The HVO government acted as the civilian
22 wing and the HVO, secondly, the military component, it
23 is responsible for activities having to do with the
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, if
1 you think that this would be an appropriate moment.
2 MR. NICE: Certainly.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We are going
4 to adjourn for half an hour and we will start again at
5 half past eleven.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,
9 Mr. Nice.
10 MR. NICE: Thank you.
11 Q. Before I move on to 1992, I'm going back to
12 the question that you were answering at length before
13 we broke, and I want a single, if it's possible, name
14 in answer to this question: In the war, what was the
15 name of the politician who affected any measure of
16 control over the military in your area?
17 A. What was the name of the politician?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. As I said, the military affairs were handled
20 by the headquarters of Petkovic, down to Blaskic, and
21 of the civilians, it was Mr. Dario Kordic.
22 Q. Yes. What about Mr. Dario Kordic?
23 A. Dario Kordic was only a politician, just like
24 I was just a politician of the civilian HVO.
25 Q. I am going to give you one more chance. Let
1 me explain it to you in simple terms. In the last big
2 war, it might have been said that Churchill, or on the
3 other side Hitler, commanded the war but in each case
4 was a politician. Now, who was the politician who
5 commanded the war in your territory, please?
6 A. In the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina the
7 main politician was Mate Boban.
8 Q. In Central Bosnia, when you were cut off, who
9 was the politician?
10 A. We were all politicians, and he was our
11 politician, Dario Kordic.
12 Q. Right. So he was the leading politician.
13 Was he the one who was communicating instructions to
14 the military, please?
15 A. He communicated with everyone, regardless of
16 whether they were the military or civilian, because he
17 advocated the peace in the area; he talked with the
18 UNPROFOR representatives, with anyone who expressed the
19 desire to talk to him.
20 Q. On the 16th of January of 1992, you were at
21 the Busovaca Cultural Club, where there was the rally.
22 If it's absolutely necessary, you can be shown it
23 again. It's a video. But we've seen it enough times
24 and we're pressed for time. Do you remember the rally?
25 A. I do remember it.
1 Q. Did you think that the observations Kordic
2 made linking the fate of your part of the territory to
3 Germany, and to the hope, were neutral statements, or
4 do you think they had any potentially unsatisfactory
6 A. As far as I know, Mr. Kordic -- and I was
7 present there -- he did not irritate anyone with his
9 Q. What about Kostroman? And I can just tell,
10 you as a matter of interest, that you're seen on the
11 tape -- as the camera pans around, you're seen on the
12 tape in the middle of Kostroman's speech. What did you
13 think of Kostroman's speech, where he was saying that
14 this was Croatian land and that Croatian laws would be
15 enforced there? What did you think of that?
16 A. Everyone has the right to say whatever they
17 want. However, for me and those who were present
18 there, this was not acceptable. I'm a citizen of
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is my country. And I
20 also respect the Croatian state.
21 Q. Does it surprise you to know that a Muslim
22 witness testified that this speech aroused associations
23 with the fascist state of Croatia during World War II
24 and proved to be extremely troubling to them, that is,
25 to the Muslims? Does that surprise you?
1 A. As far as that speech is concerned, as I
2 said, everyone has the right to say whatever they want,
3 and people can accept or not accept the speech of a
5 Q. I'm sorry. You're a local resident, you know
6 your Muslims. The question was quite simple. Does it
7 surprise you that that speech should arouse those sort
8 of concerns in your fellow inhabitant Muslims?
9 A. Anyone could be concerned, whether it is an
10 irritating type of statement or something else. It
11 depends on how people take it. And as far as the
12 Kostroman statement is concerned, everybody is
13 responsible for their own speeches and their own
15 Q. If you won't answer the question, will you
16 answer this: Did you at any stage disassociate
17 yourself from Kostroman's speech and from his stance on
18 basically trying to join up this part of the territory
19 with Croatia? Did you at any stage do that?
20 A. That was a view of Mr. Kostroman. My views
21 are completely different. I respect the Croatian
22 state, but I also respect my own state of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina, because I am a member of the parliament of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina and I protect the interests of
25 the people there.
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,
2 that is all very well, and I believe Mr. Nice could
3 move on to another question, because the witness has
4 answered after his own fashion.
5 MR. NICE:
6 Q. Do you accept that at about this time, that's
7 the beginning of January of 1992, Mr. Kordic, who in
8 the rally was in plain clothes, that is, in civilian
9 clothes, do you accept that about this time he also was
10 seen with a firearm, a pistol, on the occasion of the
11 stopping of the convoy, called the Banana Convoy, at
12 Kaonik on the 17th of January?
13 A. I don't remember that.
14 Q. In general, do you accept that he moved from
15 being a person in plain clothes through to being an
16 authoritative figure carrying a firearm?
17 A. I did not see Mr. Kordic carrying weapons.
18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, for reference
19 purposes, that was Witness A.
20 Q. He resigned, Mr. Kordic, on the 25th of
21 January --
22 MR. NICE: I'm cutting stuff out, Your
23 Honour, in order to save time.
24 Q. He resigned on the 25th of January from his
25 position as deputy president. Do you know why?
1 A. The vice-president?
2 Q. The vice-president of HZ HB.
3 A. I don't know that.
4 Q. Well, the resignation was rejected at a
5 meeting on the 27th. Do you know anything about that?
6 This was the meeting where Kljuic was ousted and his
7 authorities frozen, it appears.
8 A. I'm not familiar with that.
9 Q. Very well. Well, we'll move on as swiftly as
10 we can.
11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, if you'll give me a
12 minute, I'll just try and cut material all the time.
13 Q. Do you know the man Skravan?
14 A. I didn't get the interpretation of this.
15 Q. Skravan. Did you know a man called Skravan
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please
18 spell the name.
19 MR. NICE: S-k-r-a-v-a-n.
20 A. No.
21 Q. We come to March of 1992, and I want to come
22 back briefly to Mr. Cicak. Mr. Cicak wrote newspaper
23 articles, didn't he?
24 A. I don't recall. I know that he wrote things,
25 but I don't know exactly what it was.
1 Q. You're here saying that this man was of
2 unsound mind in some way. I may have missed it in the
3 newspaper articles, but was he ever challenged at the
4 time of behaving in the way he did and writing in the
5 way he did, simply because of weakness of intellect?
6 A. Anyone can write whatever they want wherever
7 they want. Nobody ever prevented him from doing so,
8 because there is no point responding to everything that
9 appears in the press. That at least is my experience.
10 Q. Cicak, on, for example, I'll just take one
11 date, the 21st of March of 1992, challenged the
12 legality of what you had all done because there had
13 been no referendum of the Croat people. Now, first of
14 all, we know that he was right, there had been no
15 referendum. You've confirmed that already; correct?
16 A. There was no referendum. Yes, that is
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
19 apologies. I am trying to avoid any objections, but
20 here we're talking about March 1992, and the question
21 of referendum refers to May of 1992, and that is not
22 clarified through the questions. It creates
23 confusion. Could the questions be asked in a more
24 precise way, please.
25 MR. NICE: I'm sorry if --
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,
2 Mr. Naumovski, but I think that the question was more
3 general. I do not think that any date was mentioned.
4 That was a question that touched upon -- that was
5 touched upon -- ago whether there were elections or not
6 in the government, and the answer was that the
7 government was not elected in the elections.
8 Now, Mr. Nice, will you please ask a question
9 of the witness.
10 MR. NICE: Yes. Thank you.
11 Q. What Mr. Cicak was objecting to, and you must
12 remember this, is that the parastate or whatever it was
13 that you had created, was illegitimate, was without
14 democratic foundation. That's what he was complaining
15 about, wasn't it?
16 A. As far as Mr. Cicak is concerned, or anyone
17 else for that matter, everybody has the right to say
18 what is legal and what is not legal. If some
19 institutions are unable to operate in the territory of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the people are forced to
21 fight for their survival and is creating -- is building
22 up a structure in order to prevent from being expelled
23 from the territory, I don't see what you can prefix
24 with para, because everybody was fighting for their
25 survival in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and everybody has
1 to express -- can express their view.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Mr. Maric. Will you please try to confine yourself to
4 answers to questions that are asked. Thank you.
5 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Just to deal with that last point, if Ms.
7 Verhaag will hold up the three volumes of the lists
8 for -- the government of Sarajevo was publishing laws
9 for the years 1992, 1993, and 1994. Well published.
10 It was still a functioning government, wasn't it?
11 A. That is not correct that they are still
12 enforced today. In 1992 and 1993 the laws could not
13 reach my office in Busovaca, let alone other places.
14 Those laws could reach only as far as the city of
15 Zenica, which was under Muslim control.
16 Q. For the record, they're called Sluzbeni
17 lists. I must move at speed. This man, Cicak, and
18 this is really susceptible to a yes/no answer, was
19 challenging the legitimacy of what you had all done,
20 and he was entirely entitled to do that; correct?
21 A. For the Croatian people, this was legitimate,
22 because we fought for the interests of Croatian people
23 in the territory which were ours and for which we --
24 and where we fought to also allow others to live,
25 because we were at risk. Bosnia and Herzegovina was
1 splitting up. The units of JNA had already taken 70
2 per cent of the territory.
3 Q. If you won't answer that question, answer
4 this one. Why was Mr. Cicak beaten up, please, merely
5 for the expression of democratic views?
6 A. I am not aware of the fact that he was beaten
8 Q. Really? As mayor, you had no knowledge of
9 the fact that he had been beaten up, that he had
10 complained to Kordic that he had a newspaper article
11 published saying Kordic's men had done it? No
12 awareness of that at all?
13 A. I don't know anything about it.
14 Q. Were you on holiday in March of 1992, away
15 from your territory or something?
16 A. In March 1992 I was in Busovaca.
17 Q. You're not telling this Chamber the truth,
18 are you, because when the truth is impossible, you have
19 to hide behind amnesia.
20 A. I'm telling the truth about what I know.
21 That is my truth. You can judge for yourself whether
22 this is the truth or not. I have given a solemn
23 declaration and I'm speaking the truth.
24 Q. And you decline or are unable to help this
25 Chamber at all with the detail of what happened to the
1 man publishing articles in favour of democracy, but you
2 nevertheless assert against him that he's a person of
3 mental illness, do you?
4 A. I said what my personal views are on Mr.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, on the question of
7 Mr. Cicak's mental illness, the witness had said
8 earlier that he had formed the conclusion that Mr.
9 Cicak was mentally ill because Mr. Cicak had told him
10 that he couldn't fulfill some of his duties. I wanted
11 to ask the witness whether there was anything else.
12 Was there anything in the conduct of Mr. Cicak himself
13 that led you to believe that he was mentally ill?
14 A. Your Honour, Mr. Cicak showed me this
15 certificate and told me that he had been ill, that he
16 had a lot of problems. He had headaches and he had
17 problems with his behaviour. And if somebody would
18 oppose him, he would lose control very quickly. He
19 would become angry.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
21 MR. NICE:
22 Q. When do you say he told you that?
23 A. When we met in '89, we met, and in 1990, I
24 said that he was a member of the Busovaca HDZ.
25 Q. So you're saying he told you all this before
1 you voted him into office; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you --
4 MR. NICE: Sorry.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: If Mr. Cicak had not himself
6 told you this, would you have formed the impression
7 that he was mentally ill?
8 A. I believe the person who volunteers this
9 information to me. I can have my own view about the
10 person, but when a person tells me the truth, then what
11 he tells me I take to be the truth. And then he also
12 was entering into arguments, and, for instance, if he
13 reacted in a certain way, later on he would say, "I did
14 not want to react in this certain way." He couldn't
15 control himself. I knew this man well.
16 MR. NICE:
17 Q. This didn't stop you from voting with him, if
18 the article in Slobodna Bosna of the 22nd of May of
19 1999 is right, it didn't stop you voting with him
20 against Kordic's election, did it, at an early stage?
21 A. What vote? I did not quite understand what
23 Q. You were quoted in that newspaper article as
24 having voted with Florijan Glavocevic and Mr. Cicak
25 against Kordic's election as National Defence Secretary
1 and HDZ General Secretary. Is the newspaper article
3 A. That is not correct.
4 Q. I must move forward, I'm afraid. Let's come
5 to the 14th of April.
6 MR. NICE: May the witness please see Exhibit
8 Q. This is a document by way of a receipt for
9 weaponry. Do you remember the circumstances in which
10 Mr. Kordic obtained these particular weapons? They're
11 signed, you see, by his name, at the bottom of the
13 A. You should know that in the Lasva Valley
14 there are two large factories; BMT produced weapons and
15 Vitezit produced explosives, all kinds of explosives.
16 Q. Let me cut you short because we've heard a
17 lot about this. He demanded these very substantial
18 weapons, didn't he, and he did it in April of 1992 and
19 he wouldn't take no for an answer; do you know that to
20 be the case?
21 A. I don't know about that, that that is how it
22 was framed.
23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of how he was the
24 person signing for this heavy weaponry when he was
25 merely a politician, or just a politician?
1 A. He worked in the defence office in Busovaca
2 in 1992.
3 Q. But I thought you carefully explained to us
4 that the defence office has very limited military
5 functions. Can you explain, please, why this
6 politician was getting heavy weaponry?
7 A. At that time Mr. Dario Kordic worked in the
8 Busovaca municipality where he held the post of the
9 Secretary of National Defence; that is the position he
10 was holding.
11 Q. All right. Let's move on to the Draga
12 barracks. The Draga barracks were emptied of their
13 weapons by the HVO; correct?
14 A. It is true that there was a distribution. I
15 explained in my testimony that there are three barracks
16 in the municipality Busovaca; that at Kacuni, that is,
17 weapons and buildings were overtaken by Muslim units --
18 Q. I don't want you to repeat your testimony.
19 A. -- I'm not repeating my testimony. All I
20 want to say is Draga was allotted to the Croats.
21 Q. After the taking of weapons from the Draga,
22 did the JNA do something unpleasant?
23 A. Of course, because it bombed Busovaca.
24 Q. What you missed out is what happened in
25 between. What happened to the soldiers from the JNA
1 barracks, that is, the JNA soldiers?
2 A. I was present when they were evacuating
3 Draga, and as soon as the soldiers had started on their
4 way to Sarajevo on a bus, I took my car and drove
6 Q. At this operation, you were in plain clothes
7 but Kordic was by now wearing a uniform, wasn't he?
8 A. He did wear a uniform, but anyone could put
9 it on.
10 Q. The JNA soldiers, were they taken off
11 somewhere else into the countryside, to a fate, at the
12 time, unknown?
13 A. They, the JNA soldiers, as you know, were not
14 taken anywhere. They headed for Sarajevo.
15 Q. The commander of this operation was Kordic,
16 wasn't he?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Who was?
19 A. Regarding the takeover of the Draga barracks,
20 the crisis staff was in operation then and it was
21 Mr. Florijan Glavocevic and Mr. Hadzimejlic who were
22 designated to take care of the takeover from the JNA.
23 Q. The taking of these weapons from the JNA was
24 by surprise; it was effectively by ambush, wasn't it?
25 A. No, it was not sudden because an agreement
1 had been reached a long time before that. My part of
2 the crisis staff, headed by me, we discussed it with
3 JNA representatives at the Rajlovac barracks. And I
4 can tell you that I was detained on that road by the
5 former JNA, that is, by the forces of the SDS, on the
6 Ilijas bridge, and I was to be liquidated then, me and
7 Mr. Milorad Jovic, Mr. Glavocevic, and Mr. Hadzimejlic;
8 that is, Asim Sunulahpasic and the commander of the
9 then chief of police, Husnija Neslanovic, they can
10 confirm this.
11 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that it was this
12 early miscalculation of the approach to the Draga
13 barracks that led to the JNA's response into the
14 bombing of Busovaca, and that this was all probably led
15 by Kordic; you don't accept that, I imagine.
16 A. Here I repeat, sir, Your Honours, Kordic did
17 not run that operation. The operation was run by
18 Mr. Glavocevic and Mr. Hadzimejlic regarding the
19 takeover of the weaponry and the barracks from the
20 Yugoslav People's Army.
21 Q. Then we come to the next incident, which is
22 the Kaonik camp weapons on May the 9th. The agreement
23 was simply for an equal share of weapons, wasn't it?
24 A. The agreement was reached to share it 50/50,
25 that is, half to go to the Croat and half to the Muslim
2 Q. The checkpoint that had been erected, before
3 any armed conflict between you and the Muslims, was a
4 solely HVO checkpoint, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes, because it was in the territory with the
6 Croat operation.
7 Q. Why wasn't it a joint checkpoint if you were
8 still trying to cooperate with the Muslims at that
10 A. Because the territories where the Croats were
11 controlling had Croat majorities there.
12 Q. Well, I'm going to suggest to you that all
13 that happened was that the Muslims arrived all in one
14 truck to collect the weapons. Would that be about
16 A. They came, as there had been an agreement on
17 the takeover, the Muslims, that is, the majority who
18 had not agreed, because they were headed by Mr. Dzemal
19 Merdan at the Leptir, and I told you yesterday in
20 detail how it all happened. So they wanted to force
21 their entry into the Kaonik barracks so as, in point of
22 fact, to take it over, notwithstanding the agreement,
23 because it was said that 50 per cent of the weaponry
24 should go to the Muslims and 50 per cent to the
25 Croats. And they came to the Leptir disco to take it
2 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that what you're
3 saying about a breach of the agreement is made up by
4 you and others in order to try and justify what
5 happened then and thereafter, and they simply turned up
6 to take the weapons they had agreed should be theirs.
7 A. Your Honours, I'm telling the truth, because
8 I know, I was a participant in these matters, because I
9 headed the crisis staff, and I know how the action was
10 carried out to the end.
11 Q. Can we now, then, look at Z100, please, and
12 hear your account on that and your view on it. Just to
13 remind us, I think this is a document that you
14 participated -- in the drafting of which you
15 participated; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But that you felt unwell before it was
18 completed, and therefore you had to go home before it
19 was signed; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you help us at all with at which stage of
22 the document's drafting you started to feel unwell, how
23 much of it we can see as a reflection of your input and
24 how much is after you had to go home?
25 A. The document was drafted -- the whole
1 document was drafted. I left before it was signed.
2 But all it says here was agreed on that occasion.
3 Q. Very well. And then let's come to the
4 signatures, because I just want to be quite sure what
5 you're saying about Mr. Kordic's signature. Can you
6 tell us about that, please?
7 A. I said yesterday that Mr. Ivo Brnada,
8 commander of the municipal HVO staff, military wing,
9 signed this, and Mr. Dario Kordic was only a
10 co-signatory to this. This is a document as a surety,
11 as a guarantor, that it was verified --
12 Q. I see.
13 A. -- to show that he was there.
14 Q. Where does the document say that, please?
15 You're an educated man. We've all seen documents that
16 say "signed in the presence of so-and-so" or
17 "witness." Where does it say that Kordic is signing
18 as -- I think it's a guarantor, is it? Co-signatory or
19 guarantor: Where does it say that?
20 A. Among us it is a practice, it is a practice
21 with us, that the person who signs the act signs it on
22 the right-hand side, and the person who is witness to
23 that signs on the left-hand side.
24 Q. I see. And so we'll have to have a look at a
25 few more orders if that's really your evidence. But
1 let's see what you think about the content of this
2 document after these years and can help us with.
3 Unilateral -- paragraph 1 -- the unilateral
4 termination of the agreement decided that HVO should
5 take all the weapons. Why was that, then? Just
6 because the other side had shown, on your account, an
7 inclination to take more weapons from Kaonik? Is that
9 A. Because they did not comply with the
11 Q. What about the paramilitary formations, the
12 so-called -- number 3: To be given an ultimatum to
13 hand over all their weapons? Why was that imposed?
14 You weren't yet at war with these people. Why were you
15 doing that?
16 A. Because they were falling foul of the
17 agreement. But I must point out that the TO never came
18 under the HVO. And after these events between the 9th
19 and 10th of May, they continued to exist in Busovaca.
20 Q. I see. Well, I'm not going to have time to
21 deal with that for the time being, but let's go on to
22 number 4. No HVO representative has the right to
23 negotiate with representatives of the so-called
24 Territorial Defence and the Patriotic League. Why so?
25 A. Because that agreement was not observed, and
1 if you reach an agreement that something has to be done
2 in such-and-such way, then how can one say there is --
3 how does one proceed to try to reach an agreement if
4 what has been agreed is not observed?
5 Q. Then of course the arrest of the three men.
6 Do you remember telling His Honour Judge Robinson
7 yesterday, I think it was, who would be carrying out
8 the arrest? The police, wasn't it?
9 A. The police.
10 Q. And to whom did they respond? I think you
11 told His Honour the civil side; correct?
12 A. The civilian police was to arrest them, that
13 is, to take them in for interrogation.
14 Q. Do you say that it is under Brnada or
15 under --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice.
17 MR. NICE:
18 Q. Do you say that these police are under
19 Brnada, under Kordic, or under you?
20 A. The civilian police operated under the
21 civilian HVO. As a matter of fact, the crisis staff
22 was still active that evening. The civilian police
23 were still under the supervision of the civilian wing.
24 Q. So who is that, you or Kordic?
25 A. I was the president of the crisis staff. I
1 told you that. And when this was signed, then the
2 crisis staff practically ceased to exist.
3 Q. This document was another step on the way of
4 a takeover of power by an unelected body, wasn't it?
5 Quite simple.
6 A. When you say "unelected" and "illegal," Your
7 Honours, you should know that at such times when you
8 have a crisis on your hands, then there can be no
9 referendum, as you say. It takes time to have a
10 referendum. And these are all pre-war conditions
11 practically, because there was bombing, and there were
12 all sorts of things which are difficult to describe now
13 what the situation was at the time.
14 Q. Why was Merdan beaten up?
15 A. I don't know that he was beaten up. I know
16 that he was interrogated, because he brought in fact
17 people to Leptir illegally, who were not supposed to
18 take part in the negotiations.
19 Q. Then this period of time started on the 11th
20 of May, ended just what, 11 or 12 days later, didn't
21 it, with Z111? If we can look at that, please, Z111.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Again, Mr. Kordic's signature on the
24 left-hand side. This is in the witness position, is
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We can see that there's been a blockade of
3 the city of Busovaca in all directions for the
4 preceding 10 days, and that's now abolished. There's a
5 curfew introduced.
6 We'll come back to number 3 in a minute.
7 Number 4, because the HVO of the Busovaca
8 municipality is leading the whole -- I'm so sorry to
9 the interpreters if I'm going too fast -- the whole
10 organisation of life and defence. The Busovaca
11 Municipal Crisis Command will not do their duties
12 anymore, nor will they take any decisions. This was a
13 takeover, wasn't it, by your party, through the HVO, of
14 your region?
15 A. The Croat Defence Council took over all
16 competencies in order to assume all responsibility for
17 developments on the ground.
18 Q. Now, under item number 3, about the workers
19 of government bodies and municipal assembly workers and
20 of companies immediately organised functioning of the
21 governmental bodies of the Busovaca Municipal
22 Assembly. What about that?
23 MR. NICE: The Chamber will remember that
24 there's got to be an amendment from the English version
25 of the translation of the passage in brackets.
1 Q. What did you interpret number 3 as doing,
3 A. As for number 3 here, where it speaks about
4 the desire to organise the life in the territory of the
5 municipality of Busovaca, and invites all workers, all
6 employees, to work in the territory of the municipality
7 of Busovaca without coercion, so that everybody can do
8 their jobs as they wanted to do before. Because I'm
9 telling you, the situation was very difficult and it
10 was increasingly grave from one day to the other, and
11 we were trying to organise it through these orders.
12 Q. We've had evidence in this Court of people
13 saying they were only allowed to return to work, or
14 would only have been allowed to return to work, on
15 terms of an oath of loyalty to the HVO. What do you
16 say to that evidence?
17 A. Nobody ever asked anyone to sign loyalty.
18 Everybody could come and work as he pleased, so nobody
19 ever demanded that anybody sign any loyalty, whether he
20 would be loyal or not.
21 Q. Can you think of anything that was being said
22 by officials or by the proprietors or directors of
23 enterprises? Can you think of anything that was being
24 said to Muslims that they could have misunderstood as a
25 requirement to give an act of fidelity or an oath of
1 fidelity to the HVO?
2 A. Insofar as I'm aware, nobody ever requested
3 that anybody sign any kind of fidelity to anyone. I've
4 already said that. I say it again.
5 Q. There weren't any particularly enthusiastic
6 or committed local people who might have used the
7 changed circumstances as a way of getting rid of Muslim
8 employees, if they weren't prepared in some way to sign
9 up to the HVO?
10 A. I repeat: Nobody ever, never, ever, asked
11 anyone to sign any kind of loyalty. What was pursued
12 was to have people work, to have some kind of peace in
13 the municipality of Busovaca, because the situation was
14 getting graver from one day to the other, and the
15 Croats and Bosniaks and Serbs who lived in those
16 territories had to see that this be organised to the
17 benefit of every man.
18 Q. Well, now, the period of time between this
19 change of circumstances and the end of the year is
20 covered by the documents that you provided yesterday.
21 I may have a few questions to ask you about those after
22 the lunch adjournment, but I'm not in a position to do
23 so at the moment. But tell us, between whatever we're
24 up to now, May 1992 and the end of the year, were
25 people leaving the territory? Muslims, were they
1 leaving the territory?
2 A. They were.
3 Q. Why?
4 A. But also the displaced persons were
5 arriving. I only have to tell you that my family, my
6 wife and my children, were away because there was
7 shelling. The situation was complicated: war in
8 Croatian, war in the territories of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
9 so people feared for their life. Everybody did.
10 Q. In this intervening period, the second half
11 of 1992, perhaps the witness could just help us by
12 looking at a couple of exhibits. Exhibit 120, please.
13 You're telling us, I think, that Mr. Kordic
14 had no military function of any kind; is that right?
15 A. I have said that Mr. Kordic never had
16 anything military. He was only a politician.
17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to
18 bother with more than one of these documents, but it's
19 just to give the witness an opportunity to deal with
20 one obvious point.
21 If 120 hasn't yet been produced, can I
22 produce it and I'll provide copies later? If I
23 separate it out, original for the witness and English
24 copy for the ELMO. Sorry. I hadn't appreciated it
25 hadn't gone in.
1 Q. What you're looking at there is an order of
2 June 1992, so the same period of time, which says:
3 "The municipal headquarters of the Defence
4 Council in Vares is ordered to send a unit of 30
5 soldiers immediately on receipt of this order to
6 protect the village of Tarcin Do because of an
7 immediate danger of Chetniks attacking the village."
8 And then it's said the units are obliged to
9 stay in the village until weapons are secured.
10 Now, that's a military instruction, isn't
11 it? Do doubts about it?
12 A. This is the first time that I see this order.
13 Q. Well, it's nevertheless a military
15 A. It can be a political one.
16 Q. I'm so sorry. Ordering a unit of soldiers to
17 move for purposes of defence of a village, is that the
18 sort of thing that politicians were doing regularly?
19 A. Well, there were instances of politicians,
20 because they are concerned for their people, so they
21 would organise higher alertness so that people can
22 defend their lands.
23 Q. I'm so sorry. I don't understand that. But
24 let me -- my mistake, I'm sure. But help me with
25 this: If this is a military order affecting whatever
1 it is, a platoon of 30 soldiers, where is the military
2 signature that gives authority to this instruction?
3 It's not there, is it?
4 A. I've told you that this is the first time I
5 see this. I know that the gentleman was a politician,
6 and perhaps there was a military component from the
7 army commander.
8 Q. Because you see the difficulty, don't you?
9 This is signed by Kordic; it's signed on the right-hand
10 side of the page, just in case there's any significance
11 in the difference. This man was giving military
12 instructions, wasn't he? Wasn't he?
13 A. Perhaps, and political too. I'm not sure.
14 Q. Perhaps you would be good enough to look at
15 this photograph. It doesn't come out terribly well.
16 MR. NICE: Again, I've got the copy
17 immediately available for the ELMO, if that helps,
19 Q. Now, it appears from the background, if you
20 have a look at it closely, this may be up in the
21 Tisovac area. At what part of the period 1992/1993 did
22 you see Mr. Kordic dressed like this, looking like
23 this, and carrying a weapon of that kind?
24 A. Anybody could put on a military uniform, I
25 told you; I also wore it for a time. You should know
1 that at any moment, a man -- even if he was not wearing
2 a uniform, because 14-year-old children to 60-year-old
3 men defended the territories of the municipality. And
4 if a man walks around in civilian clothes, he cannot be
5 in civilian clothes, he had to wear a uniform.
6 Q. That's not actually an answer to the
7 question. What part of the period 1992/1993 did you
8 see Mr. Kordic dressed like this and did you see him
9 carrying a gun like this, this politician?
10 A. He only had a photograph taken of him with
11 the rifle, because he didn't carry one. I know that
12 whenever he would come he never had any weapons. This
13 was just posing for the picture. I also had a picture
14 taken of me with a weapon in the former army, to have
15 it as a memento.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,
17 the question is simple so will you please try to avoid
18 any comments. Did you see Mr. Kordic dressed like
19 this, as a military man, and carrying a weapon, as this
20 photograph shows? Did you ever see him like that or
22 A. Mr. Kordic did wear a military uniform but
23 did not carry weapons.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. NICE:
1 Q. At what period of the history did he start
2 being called "Colonel"?
3 A. They started addressing him like that when he
4 first went to Sarajevo for discussions with the
5 representatives of the Bosnian army.
6 Q. Was that the period of time at which he was
7 falling out with Blaskic and starting to take over
8 military authority from Blaskic, as I must suggest to
10 A. As far as I know, Messrs. Kordic and Blaskic
11 were never --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please
13 repeat the last word. It didn't come out audible.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Would you
15 please repeat for the transcript what you just said,
16 Mr. Maric.
17 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, Messrs.
18 Kordic and Blaskic never had a dispute.
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. I may come back to that at the end. I'll
21 pass over the balance of 1992 for the time being and
22 come to 1993, and I'll return to 1992 this afternoon if
23 time allows.
24 You tell us in your summary, and I think in
25 evidence, something about Dzemal Merdan instigating a
1 crisis by complaining about a machine-gun. The truth
2 is that in that period of time, 1992 and into 1993, the
3 HVO did patrol with machine-guns on vehicles, didn't
5 A. There was a truck with a machine-gun mounted
6 on it which patrolled from one checkpoint to another.
7 Q. It also patrolled in the areas of town, in
8 particular in the Muslim areas.
9 A. That is not correct. They went from the
10 checkpoint at the Busovaca-Kiseljak municipal
11 boundaries towards Zenica, to a place called Grablje.
12 Q. There were also machine-guns, as we've heard
13 from a witness called (redacted), that were posted
14 in the Muslim areas. What about that; true or false?
15 A. Not true.
16 Q. Well, how, then, does Merdan's complaining
17 about a machine-gun have any bearing on what we've been
18 inquiring into?
19 A. I don't know what Mr. Merdan had in mind when
20 he said that.
21 MR. NICE: May the witness see, please --
22 Q. It's not what Mr. Merdan said -- I'm sorry, I
23 must sort this out -- it's what you said. I may have
24 misunderstood it. Paragraph 34. You said this in
25 paragraph 34, you said, "At about the 15th of January
1 of 1993, I went to Kacuni to speak with Dzemal Merdan
2 who had instigated a crisis because an HVO truck with a
3 machine-gun mounted on it was patrolling the road from
4 Kaonik to Kacuni. Claiming that it irritated them, the
5 Muslim troops stopped the truck."
6 Well, was that a crisis?
7 A. Yes, that was a crisis because Kacuni was
8 already filled with the displaced persons who were
9 getting ready for a conflict.
10 Q. What's your evidence that people were getting
11 ready for a conflict as opposed to merely protecting
12 themselves from an increasingly all-powerful local
14 A. They couldn't take it any more. I showed you
15 a number of documents yesterday where the government
16 made efforts to achieve normalcy of life, and you could
17 see that 30 tonnes of flour was distributed on a Friday
18 before the conflict which broke out between Sunday and
20 MR. NICE: Can the witness see 381.4; coming
21 your way.
22 Your Honour, of course I'm not going to
23 introduce more than the necessary minimum of documents,
24 but I must give the witness, as I try generally, the
25 opportunity to deal with contemporaneous accounts from
1 independent sources.
2 Q. This is a document you almost certainly will
3 not have seen before. It's a document from the army
4 that was patrolling the area at the time. I'm afraid
5 it is only in English, and I'll read out the relevant
6 passage to you slowly enough for you to follow it, I
7 trust. It's on the second page, at number 9, in a
8 document that is dated itself the 20th of January, 6.00
9 in the evening.
10 This document says: "The Dutch Transport
11 Battalion report that tensions in Busovaca have
12 increased recently. The BiH commander was stopped in
13 the town by the district HVO police and his weapons and
14 car were taken from him."
15 Would that be correct?
16 A. I don't remember it.
17 Q. It was also reported: "The HVO police in
18 Busovaca had been reinforced by HVO from elsewhere."
19 Was that true?
20 A. Not correct. That is not true.
21 Q. I was wondering whether there was any reason
22 for reinforcing at exactly that time, in January of
23 1993. You say the Dutch Battalion's report or
24 information is incorrect?
25 A. This information is not correct. There were
1 displaced people in Busovaca who had arrived from Jajce
2 and other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I said that
4 Q. I -- sorry. Yes, go on.
5 A. There were no units there in Busovaca.
6 MR. NICE: May the witness see 382.3; coming
7 your way.
8 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 21st of
9 January but it is retrospective to a degree. It's a
10 milinfosum, that is, a military report document, and it
11 says these things about your town.
12 On the first page, at number 2: "On the 18th
13 of January, an ICRC convoy was stopped at Busovaca by
14 an HVO checkpoint. The drivers were Muslims from
15 Zenica. They were intimidated and robbed. As they
16 subsequently drove away, shots were fired at them
17 causing two tyres to be punctured."
18 True or false?
19 A. I cannot recall that event. I was the
20 civilian part of the HVO and the checkpoint was manned
21 by the military police.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, perhaps you should
23 say what ICRC is.
24 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. Yes.
25 Q. International Committee of the Red Cross.
1 You understood that, did you? I'm sorry if you
2 didn't. The ICRC was a Red Cross convoy.
3 A. I had said that I did not know about that
4 event because the checkpoints were manned by military
5 policemen. So I cannot speak to that event because I
6 don't know about it. Because I was the civilian HVO, I
7 did not receive that information.
8 Q. If we turn to the next page, number 6 --
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,
10 sorry to interrupt you.
11 Mr. Maric, are you telling us that there was
12 absolutely nothing in common between the civilian wing
13 of the HVO and the military wing of the HVO, that there
14 was no mutual information/feedback between the two?
15 A. When the structures were established, the
16 military was brought into a military chain of command
17 and the civilian was separated out. So everybody was
18 accountable for their own sector; the military to the
19 military structure and the civilian police to the
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, no, no,
22 I'm not interested in the chain of command. I'm
23 talking merely about information. Wasn't there
24 information which circulated from one wing to the other
25 wing of the HVO?
1 A. Sometimes there was.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. NICE: I'm grateful to Your Honour.
4 Q. But the stopping in your small town of a Red
5 Cross convoy, with the intimidation and robbing of
6 Muslim drivers, was something that could happen without
7 even coming to your attention; is that really what
8 you're telling us?
9 A. Any intimidation, any, as you put it -- I
10 don't know how you put it -- I condemn such actions.
11 Q. Second page, item 6, this is what the
12 International Observers, Mr. Maric, said about the
13 Kacuni checkpoint. They said that "The BiH in Busovaca
14 have established a checkpoint at Kacuni. This is the
15 only BiH checkpoint between Vitez and Kiseljak and is
16 located just north of the BiH Brigade headquarters. It
17 is manned by 15 to 20 soldiers with automatic weapons
18 and an RPG-7. Anti-tank mines are also said to be laid
19 at the checkpoint."
20 Now, is that about accurate?
21 A. Correct. They had a checkpoint at Kacuni.
22 Q. And the description of the number of soldiers
23 and equipment is about right, is it?
24 A. Well, I believe that occasionally there were
25 even more; 20, and up to 30 perhaps.
1 Q. Did you ever go there yourself?
2 A. Only when I spoke to Mr. Dzemal Merdan,
3 before the conflict, and I also -- based on the
4 information I received, even the UNPROFOR
5 representatives mentioned this checkpoint, because at
6 that time I had contacts with them as well.
7 Q. We come to the 20th of January of 1993, and I
8 think you volunteered or were asked about and told us
9 something about an incident occurring at a checkpoint
10 involving another politician; do you remember that?
11 A. According to the information I received,
12 Mr. Ignac Kostroman had been stopped at that
14 Q. The date? The date of the incident, please?
15 A. The 20th or 21st. I don't know exactly but I
16 think it was more likely the 20th of January, 1993.
17 Q. Can you help me, please, with this: You're
18 not the first witness whose chosen a base of dates, a
19 bracket of dates, of the 20th/21st. What is it that
20 fixes one of two dates in your mind, please?
21 A. That is not why I choose it. This is what
22 was happening. The crisis was intensifying.
23 Q. Why, when asked about something, do you say,
24 "Well, it was either the 20th or the 21st"? For
25 example, have you discussed this with the other
1 witnesses in the case?
2 A. I was informed that -- the information came
3 and I -- and this was seven years ago. I cannot recall
4 exactly, but I know that the shelling started on the
5 25th, when the fiercest fighting took place in
6 Busovaca. And at the same checkpoint the day before,
7 on the 24th, Mr. Ivica Petrovic was killed, and another
8 gentleman, a taxi driver, also was killed at that
9 checkpoint on the 24th. And early on the 25th, and I
10 mentioned that yesterday, there was heavy attack of the
11 Bosniaks on Busovaca.
12 Q. And what do you say you were told had
13 happened to this politician on the 20th or 21st?
14 A. That he had been stopped and harassed, that
15 he was prevented from reaching his destination.
16 Q. Did you discover how it was that the incident
18 A. I don't have detailed information on that.
19 Q. That same night did anything else happen that
20 you can recall?
21 A. I recall that Muslim premises were blown up
22 and that Mr. Mirsad Delija was seriously injured and
23 that unfortunately he died on route to the hospital.
24 Q. Now, those attacks, both on the shop premises
25 and on Mirsad Delija, they were connected to the
1 incident at the checkpoint, weren't they?
2 A. That was the result of those events.
3 Q. My mistake for not following the answer. The
4 attacks on the shop premises and the attack on Mirsad
5 Delija followed from the incident at the checkpoint,
6 didn't they?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Because they were by way of reaction to
9 interference with a politician at the checkpoint.
10 That's what you mean, isn't it? Isn't it?
11 A. Mr. Ignac Kostroman was harassed at that
13 Q. And that led -- I'll come back to that in a
14 minute, but on your evidence, that led to the
15 destruction of the --
16 A. It resulted in -- this incident resulted in
17 people who were in that area. It angered them, so they
18 went and they blew up these premises.
19 Q. And then they went and murdered Delija?
20 A. He wasn't murdered; he was seriously
21 injured. He died on the way to hospital. That is the
22 report that I received.
23 Q. He was called out of his house and shot and
24 he died. Isn't that murder?
25 A. It is a murder, since the man eventually
1 died. I condemn such acts.
2 Q. But for the avoidance of any doubt -- we've
3 now got to it -- these acts on the people of Busovaca,
4 their premises, and the man Delija, flowed from the
5 incident at the checkpoint incident involving a
7 A. Regardless of who it was, yes, it was a
8 politician who was there. But I condemn any kind of
9 excessive acts. I said so.
10 Q. The man Delija died because it was his
11 brother who had stopped the politician, and the
12 murderers went to his family home and they found the
13 wrong brother. That's about right, isn't it?
14 A. I did not get such a report. What I can say
15 is what I see for myself and what is presented to me,
16 and this was presented to me in this way.
17 Q. Now, the fact that this attack on Busovaca
18 Muslims was connected to the stopping of a politician
19 was well-known, was common currency, in the
20 conversation of Busovaca at the time; correct? We've
21 already heard other evidence about there being rumours
22 about this, but please confirm it. It was well-known,
23 it was talked about?
24 A. I told you my opinion.
25 Q. You told me what you discovered through being
1 in, of course, a position of some authority and having
2 an inquiry and so on, but I still want an answer to the
3 question, please. The fact that these attacks were
4 retaliation for what had happened to a politician were
5 well-known and widely discussed in Busovaca at the
7 A. I repeat: I mentioned what the report on
8 that incident was that I received.
9 Q. Well, if you won't answer that question, will
10 you answer this one: But the rumours at the time were
11 that the politician was not Kostroman, but Kordic who
12 was stopped; correct?
13 A. It was Mr. Kostroman who was stopped.
14 Q. Now, then, about this report: You received a
15 report. Where is it?
16 A. That report is in the archive.
17 Q. The same archive as that from which these
18 documents come?
19 A. I said the entire archive is at the
20 municipality, and I left the municipality in 1994, in
22 Q. And have remained an active politician, in
23 various guises, in the same area ever since?
24 A. Yes, that is correct. I remained an active
25 politician and continue to be so, and I am a
1 representative in a legislative body.
2 MR. NICE: Might that be a convenient
3 moment? And although I shall have to excise a
4 considerable number of topics, I think, in the
5 circumstances, I can properly do so and conclude by the
6 end of the afternoon session.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
8 Mr. Nice, for being so cooperative and for the way in
9 which you conducted your cross-examination. Of course,
10 you are always entitled to ask all the relevant
11 questions. That you do. We appreciate the way you did
13 And now we shall adjourn. We shall make a
14 break and we shall resume at half past 2.00. We shall
15 work until half past 4.00. I am not -- now, I am not
16 encouraging you, but if you will need additional time,
17 then Judge Robinson and I shall be ready to consider
18 it. Thank you.
19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I would just
3 like to say that Judge Robinson drew my attention to a
4 problem of translation from French into English. I
5 said, "Thank you, Mr. Nice, for being so cooperative,"
6 but I did not say in French "for the way you conducted
7 your cross-examination." It was the interpreter who
8 added that. So would you please strike that out, what
9 I said, "Thank you for your cooperation," and what I
10 meant was by taking care of the time. I also wanted to
11 thank you, Mr. Nice, for condensing your
12 cross-examination within the time frame. I also said
13 that it wasn't a matter of five or ten minutes; you can
14 always, if necessary, use a couple of minutes more in
15 order to enable this witness to be able to leave this
16 weekend from The Hague. So that was what I wanted to
18 Mr. Nice, please go on now with the
19 cross-examination. You may proceed.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Response obscured by
22 MR. NICE: No problem.
23 Q. Document 381.3, please, coming up. This is a
24 document, the very last page of which is almost
25 illegible in the copy form produced. I have the
1 original here. It's barely more legible there but I've
2 been able, or to be precise, Ms. Verhaag has been able
3 to make out most of what's there, and I'll read it out
4 what it contains for completeness.
5 Mr. Maric, this is a military document, the
6 20th of January of 1993, and it deals with Busovaca on
7 the third page, at the foot of the third page, and it
8 reads as follows: "The BiH in Busovaca area have
9 erected a new checkpoint at Kacuni. This is the only
10 checkpoint on route from Vitez to Kiseljak and is
11 located north of the brigade headquarters, manned by
12 approximately 15 to 20 soldiers who are equipped with
13 automatic weapons." That's what we heard, I think,
15 It goes on to say that: "Reports from the
16 soldiers during daylight hours stated that the BiH had
17 laid" -- now the last page is illegible on the copy
18 form, but it reads roughly like this -- "a number of
19 mines at the checkpoint," and then there's reference to
20 information from the Dutch that the mines had been
21 lifted as darkness fell, and the comment that "this is
22 another indication of the spread of mistrust through
23 the Busovaca-Travnik-Vitez area."
24 Would you agree with those comments of the
25 military men?
1 A. As for the comment these are units which were
2 coming there and they could see, if it says so, about
3 what happened at the checkpoint, that is proof to me.
4 Q. The next exhibit is 385, which is already an
5 exhibit, and this, Mr. Maric, is a document dated the
6 21st of January, but it's retrospective to a limited
7 degree. It says of Busovaca, on page 2, the following,
8 and I'll read it slowly. It refers to the earlier
9 document, and it then says: [as read] "Dutch report
10 that the new BiH checkpoint in Kacuni was put in place
11 to prevent HVO reinforcements coming from Kiseljak or
12 Kresevo. The local BiH commander states that these
13 reinforcements arrived during the evening of the 20th
14 of January and were turned back at the checkpoint."
15 Now, is that correct?
16 This is a contemporaneous document and a
17 contemporaneous complaint by the BiH. Is that why the
18 checkpoint was put up?
19 A. Well, this is the first time I hear about
20 these documents. I know that no units, apart from
21 those that were in Busovaca, ever arrived there.
22 Q. Yes, but is it right that reinforcements were
23 coming from Kiseljak and Kresevo and that was what
24 concerned the BiH commander? You were there. Please
25 help us.
1 A. I know nothing about it because I was not
2 aware of that, and there were no reinforcements
4 Q. It goes on to say this: "Tensions increased
5 in Busovaca during late afternoon. Between 2000 and
6 2100 hours, two HVO checkpoints were erected at either
7 end of the town centre. At approximately the same time
8 a quad 4 by .5, mounted on a flatbed," and that, I
9 think, is a shorthand description of a weapon mounted
10 on a flatbed lorry, "was deployed on the road south of
11 the town. All main routes in and out of Busovaca were
12 then controlled. Between 2100 and 2.00 the following
13 morning," I summarise, "the Dutch reported a number of
14 explosions, and on the 21st, the daylight recce,"
15 reconnoitre, "confirmed that eight shops or kiosks had
16 been badly damaged by fire and some form of
17 explosives. The Dutch believe that these shops, which
18 are all Muslim, were possibly damaged by grenades.
19 Both HVO checkpoints were removed on the 21st of
20 January. A local source reported to the Dutch
21 Battalion that a number of families in Busovaca had
22 sent their children to stay with friends in Zenica,"
23 and the comment was, "the action of the 20/21 of
24 January appears to be a preplanned, coordinated attack
25 on the Muslim population."
1 Now, are there any facts in what I have read
2 out to you that you dispute?
3 A. As for that date, it is not true at all that
4 there was any shelling. Yes, there was tension, and
5 I've already pointed out that that evening some shops
6 were blown up by explosives.
7 Q. So you don't challenge, as the man on the
8 spot at the time, disagree with anything that's said in
9 that report?
10 A. I do not agree with all of it. Something is
11 correct in part because, yes, there were shops which
12 blew up. Not only Muslim; there were also Croat shops.
13 Q. Very well. Next Exhibit, please, is 392.
14 And while they're coming to you, Mr. Maric, I'm
15 presenting to you the contemporaneous views of
16 independent observers so we can, through you, get a
17 correct account of what was happening on these
18 important days.
19 This document is dated the 25th of January,
20 and it's another military document, but it reviews
21 matters that have happened in the previous seven days.
22 And on the third page it simply says again, at letter
24 "Tension between Muslims and Croats increased
25 at the beginning of the week. On the 20th of January,
1 1993, a new roadblock was established by the Bosnian
2 army near Kacuni, manned by 20 soldiers with automatic
3 weapons, in order to reduce the level of HVO
4 reinforcements from Kiseljak/Kresevo."
5 So again it's the same point. Perhaps I
6 needn't actually have troubled with that one. My
8 Now, what you tell us is, amongst other
9 things, and this is paragraph 37 of your affidavit, you
10 say there was an attack on the 25th of January, don't
12 A. On the 25th of January, 1993, the attack of
13 Muslim forces on Busovaca began in the early hours of
14 the morning.
15 Q. Now, you were, and the other officials in
16 Busovaca, in contact from time to time with the
17 military people who drove by in their white vehicles,
18 weren't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You also tell us, unless -- I think, in
21 relation to this part of the history, that there were
22 lists obtained from a captured Muslim soldier
23 containing the names of neighbours who were to be
24 liquidated. Is that right?
25 A. It is.
1 Q. Did you see this document yourself or is this
2 the stuff of rumour?
3 A. It is not rumours. I saw this document.
4 Q. Where is the document?
5 A. It should be at the military police.
6 Q. Such a document, if it is existed, is exactly
7 the sort of document that you would show to the
8 military -- the independent international military
9 observers, isn't it?
10 A. I said when the conflict broke out, that is,
11 on the 25th, I was at home.
12 Q. You're not --
13 A. -- in Podjele. I spent there the whole day.
14 Q. Please listen to the question again. The
15 type of document you describe having seen is exactly
16 the sort of document that the warring parties, if and
17 when they became warring parties, would show to
18 UNPROFOR; correct?
19 A. Sir, Your Honours, I wanted to explain. It
20 was some 15 days later that I met the monitors.
21 Q. When did you see the document? Who had it?
22 A. The commander of the military police.
23 Q. Name?
24 A. The commander of the military police at the
25 time was Mr. Cosic.
1 Q. So Mr. Cosic was in a position to give an
2 account of this and to show the document to the
3 UNPROFOR if he had wanted to?
4 A. I don't know if he communicated with
5 UNPROFOR, but I did see the document.
6 Q. He could either communicate with UNPROFOR or
7 he could communicate with the military in Busovaca,
8 couldn't he? This is an important piece of
10 A. I said that I was the civilian authority in
11 Busovaca, so that as far as military matters are
12 concerned, it's up to military units. It's within
13 their jurisdiction.
14 Q. And you saw this list. What did it say? Did
15 it have a title on the top: "Neighbours to be
16 liquidated"? Or how do you know what it was? Tell
18 A. The document said that every neighbour should
19 shoot his neighbour.
20 Q. An absolutely astonishing document; you'll
21 agree with that, won't you? An extraordinary thing to
22 see, even in the troubled times of Busovaca and Central
23 Bosnia; yes?
24 A. Of course, that is, to kill a man, a man to
25 kill a man, and they lived together until a few moments
1 ago, that's a disgrace.
2 Q. And by whom was this document signed, or
3 where did it come from?
4 A. I don't know who signed it. The order was
5 not signed.
6 Q. But in any event -- it wasn't signed? What
7 did you say? You first of all said, "I don't know who
8 signed it," and then you said, "The order wasn't
9 signed." Well, which one is it?
10 A. I do not know who signed it, because it is
11 not signed.
12 Q. Now, you told us that the document should
13 still exist in someone's archive. Whose archive is
14 that? The police archive?
15 A. Of the military police.
16 Q. And where may that archive be found, please?
17 A. I don't really know exactly. I'm telling you
18 that in 1994 I left Busovaca from those parts, so that
19 I can't know where it is. The archive should be in
20 Busovaca, but where is it now? I do not know how you
21 came by the documents that you have.
22 Q. And being shown this document, you weren't
23 shown it on the basis that you shouldn't tell anyone
24 else about it. Presumably, once you saw it, you had to
25 tell other people; it was such an astonishing
1 document. Wouldn't that be right?
2 A. Who should I tell about it when I didn't
3 communicate at the time? I'm telling you that it was
4 about 15 days later that I spoke to the leaders of the
5 SFOR, or rather the then UNPROFOR. And I didn't have
6 the document with me to say, "Here, look what's being
8 Q. And since you see the point that's coming, at
9 no time have you ever mentioned the existence of such
10 an astonishing document to the International Community,
11 with whom you regularly spoke; correct?
12 A. I can say what I see and show, so that I can
13 document it to every person. But at that time I did
14 not have the document with me to present it to the
15 gentlemen that I spoke to.
16 MR. NICE: 395.2, please.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
18 MR. NICE: 395.2, please, with my apologies.
19 Q. Mr. Maric, there was no attack by the BiH.
20 As we're going to see from the independent observers,
21 there turned out to be exchanges, but there was no
22 attack. This is a document dated the 25th of
23 January -- yes, 25th, 26th -- and at item 17 on page 4
24 of the document, as we have it, it says this about
1 "The situation in Busovaca deteriorated.
2 Several roads in the area were declared out-of-bounds
3 for humanitarian convoys by UNPROFOR. A BiH army
4 roadblock at Gusti Grab, near Busovaca, prevented all
5 road movement north from Kiseljak. HVO and BiH forces
6 around this village exchanged mortar and small arms
7 fire, while some house burning began. HVO reportedly
8 hold the high ground around and seem to be adopting a
9 more aggressive attitude than the BiH forces."
10 Do you have any quarrel with any of that?
11 A. Your Honours, the 25th of January, 1993, in
12 the morning, when it started, this fighting, I was at
13 home. And you are telling me there was no shelling. I
14 affirm there was, because dozens of shells fell on my
15 village too. Snipers who were north of my house, that
16 is, Strane, which is a Muslim area, snipers fired in
17 the direction of my village. It was a fierce attack.
18 And nobody can tell me that there was no shelling when
19 I went through it.
20 Q. Finally, please, 423, coming your way. A
21 slightly longer entry but it comes to the end of this
22 period of time.
23 On the first page of this document, which is
24 dated the 30th of January, it sets out something about
25 the arrangements made for a ceasefire in the
1 Kacuni/Busovaca area.
2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
5 Mr. Naumovski, please.
6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,
7 I didn't really want to cut in. But in the middle
8 paragraph which refers to meetings between the BiH and
9 HVO, an annex A is mentioned, so that my objection is
10 to the completeness of the document, because this
11 document should also be accompanied by the annex if
12 this document is to be used. It's the second passage,
13 second paragraph, on the first page of this document.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,
15 could you please help us? Could you please assist us?
16 MR. NICE: If we have the annex, we'll
17 produce it. I'm not sure if we've got it. I'm not
18 certain we have. No. The document is all that we
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: What paragraph are you
21 referring to?
22 MR. NICE: Foot of the first page, not the
23 middle of -- I'm only covering the middle of the page
24 for introductory purposes. I'm going to the third
25 paragraph, paragraph 3, which sets out the findings in
1 relation to Busovaca.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Please
4 MR. NICE:
5 Q. This reports in relation to Busovaca and
6 Kacuni: "An LO team spoke with Edin Beganovic at the
7 BiH headquarters of the 333rd Brigade at Kacuni. Edin
8 stated he was the officer responsible for morale,
9 information, and religion. He believed that the
10 Muslims in Busovaca (between the ages of 16 and 65) had
11 been arrested and detained either at the secondary
12 school at Busovaca or the Mediapan factory. Edin
13 reported the conflict had started when the Muslims had
14 ignored the HVO demands to hand in their weapons on the
15 20th of January."
16 I'm going to pause there for a minute. He's
17 right in reporting, isn't he, that Muslims were
18 required to hand in their weapons on the 20th of
20 A. I am not aware at all that anybody asked for
21 weapons from the Muslims.
22 Q. I see. It goes on, then, to say this:
23 "Approximately 50 HVO extremists led by Anto Sliskovic
24 were then reported to have destroyed many Muslim
25 properties and to have killed one BiH soldier on the
1 night of the 20/21 of January."
2 Is it right that it was Sliskovic's men who
3 committed the crimes you've told us about this morning?
4 A. I don't know whose men were they.
5 Q. You really can't help us at all.
6 A. I cannot help you at all with this.
7 Q. "Edin reported that 50-100 BiH soldiers who
8 lived in the northern part of Busovaca started to
9 prepare defensive positions on Kardic hill. The HVO
10 persuaded the BiH soldiers to give up their defensive
11 positions and these soldiers were subsequently
13 Can you confirm that is true?
14 A. When there were talks about a ceasefire, when
15 that was supposed to be arranged, then it was said that
16 all trenches should be covered, filled in; however, the
17 Muslim units did not respect that, they went on
19 Q. So broadly speaking you accept the accuracy
20 of this but you put a different interpretation on it;
21 is that right?
22 A. I'm speaking the truth, Your Honours.
23 Q. The report of the International Observers
24 goes on: "Edin stated that the 333rd Brigade's area of
25 responsibility was the front line around Maglaj. Since
1 tensions between Muslims and Croats had risen, these
2 forces were withdrawn back to the Kacuni area. He
3 stated they were keen to negotiate with the Croats in
4 order to effect both body and prisoner exchanges."
6 A. It is the gentleman who is saying that. If
7 it is true, why were they withdrawing towards
8 Busovaca? Why weren't they defending the areas around
9 Maglaj, from whence they came? In other words, they
10 were supposed to attack the Croats; that is what one
11 can conclude.
12 Q. All right. Let's read on and see what the
13 other side said. "The liaison officer team returned to
14 Busovaca and spoke to the HVO commander Jadsinovic. He
15 stated that Lendo's forces, that is to say, the forces
16 of the BiH from Novi Travnik, had attacked the Croat
17 village of Busovaca from the direction of," and then he
18 gives a direction, "at 1500 hours today," and the day
19 of the report is the 30th of January, "resulting in
20 three Croat deaths."
21 Now, is that part of it true or false?
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. "He claimed to have intercepted a fax message
24 from Lendo to Mekic which listed the five positions in
25 Busovaca which should be attacked. He stated that BiH
1 artillery positions in the village of Grablje shelled
2 Busovaca." Now, is that true?
3 A. That report says that the BiH troops were
4 attacking. We only defended ourselves.
5 Q. I was reading it out for you for comment if
6 there's anything wrong, you see. It then goes on, if I
7 haven't missed anything, "The shelling was at 1700
8 hours this evening resulting in one house being
9 destroyed and two Croat deaths. Jadsinovic believed
10 that the BiH had both 105- and 122-military artillery
11 pieces, as well as 82- and 122-millimetre mortars. He
12 stated that the front line between the HVO or BiH
13 forces passed through," and then he sets out the
14 villages concerned which I needn't trouble you with,
15 unless anybody wants to know, at the moment.
16 Now, does that appear to be accurate so far
17 as what's being said on your side?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. All right. We do not find there, in the
20 narrative of these five days, a starting point for what
21 happened other than the incident on the 20th of January
22 with the blowing up of the premises and the murder of
23 Delija. Now, was that what started all this?
24 A. I said a while ago how things developed, what
25 the situation was in the Busovaca area, and I don't
1 want to repeat myself. Whatever I said previously is
3 Q. There was one more that I want your comment
4 on. Document 390.3, it's just slightly back a few
5 days. My mistake. It's for the 25th of January.
6 So again this is right in the middle of the
7 time when you say there was an attack, and if we look
8 at the first page and the first paragraph, about six
9 lines down, where it's dealing with Bosnia, and Central
10 Bosnia generally, but it says: "The Busovaca-Kiseljak
11 route is now reported as clear for UN vehicles;
12 however, the recommendation is that soft-skinned
13 vehicles do not use this route either. BritBat will
14 patrol the routes and try to establish when free
15 passage for all vehicles is possible. The main problem
16 on the Busovaca-Kiseljak route is in the village of
17 Kacuni. This roadblock is controlled by the BiH," and
18 then it deals with what the soldiers are going to do.
19 At the third page, item 7, it says this,
20 under the assessment of the command: "Busovaca area.
21 Busovaca and the surrounding area has been the scene of
22 fighting during the day between Croat and Muslim
23 forces. The CO," commander officer, "has reported that
24 he has seen 20 Muslim houses burning in the area. He
25 assesses that this action represents ethnic cleansing
1 by the Croats against the Muslims."
3 A. The areas mentioned up at Kacuni, where
4 Croats lived, about 1.200 people were expelled there, I
5 also mentioned that, and how many houses were burned.
6 I also said in my outline how many Muslim houses were
7 burned or damaged.
8 Q. They are not figures that I'm in a position
9 to, and I don't, accept.
10 Let's move forward in time from January,
11 reminding ourselves that it was in the beginning of
12 March that you called on President Tudjman. Did you
13 get any minutes of the meeting that you had with
14 President Tudjman?
15 A. I don't.
16 Q. Did anybody?
17 A. I don't know who has the minutes but I
19 Q. Paragraph 50 in your summary deals with the
20 imam. You gave us an account of how you had to take
21 some time to think about whether he could go or not; is
22 that right?
23 A. Correct, because I wanted the imam to be
24 present in Busovaca because he was needed there. He
25 was a religious leader, and whenever a religious leader
1 leaves an area, those who follow him feel differently
2 too without the hodza or imam.
3 Q. Did you discuss his predicament with anyone
5 A. I thought for a long time what to do, because
6 I know how someone can feel in a community where he is
7 a minority. And then I reached a decision that
8 Mr. Enver Prolaz could leave the area of Busovaca, and
9 I regret his having left.
10 Q. He was effectively a hostage for a time, as
11 he was described by some of the international
12 observers. That would be correct, wouldn't it?
13 A. It is correct that he couldn't move, but, you
14 know, these were wartime circumstances. Because
15 everybody is concerned about their own life.
16 Q. And the reason you took some time was so that
17 you could discuss it with Kordic, whose approval you
19 A. That is not correct.
20 Q. I turn now to April and to Ahmici. But
21 before we come to Ahmici itself, I want you, please, to
22 help us with what you say -- let me just find it --
23 about preparations made by the BiH before the 15th.
24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm sorry about
25 this. Will you just give me one second. A document
1 has been incorrectly numbered, but I can press on while
2 we're finding it.
3 Q. What do you say was the development of --
4 what do you say was the chronology of events relating
5 to Kuber and its significance?
6 A. Yesterday I provided information on how, in
7 the afternoon hours, heavy attack was launched by the
8 Muslim forces on Kuber, and Kuber is a feature which is
9 exposed from the direction of Zenica, from where the
10 ABiH units attacked the territory of Busovaca.
11 Q. When do you say they went there?
12 A. I said that this was in the afternoon hours
13 of the 15th of April, 1993. Muslim forces from the
14 direction of Zenica attacked the territory of Busovaca
16 Q. They were already, were they, on the 15th of
17 April, on the feature mounting an attack? That's your
18 evidence, is it?
19 A. Yes. They were already attacking, and then
20 there was one area towards Vitez, that was one
21 direction, and then from Kuber towards Podjele, and the
22 areas adjacent to Busovaca.
23 Q. They held this feature and were able to
24 attack your hometown from it; is that right?
25 A. Correct. They attacked the territory of
1 Busovaca municipality.
2 Q. What you just told these Judges is quite
3 untrue. Would you like to have a look, please, at
4 Exhibit 684. It's an outstanding exhibit.
5 While it's being found, let me make it quite
6 clear, Mr. Maric. I'm suggesting to you that you've
7 corrupted the order of events in order to try to give
8 an excuse for what happened on the 16th of April at
9 Ahmici and elsewhere, and that what you're saying is
10 not true. Do you understand?
11 A. I am telling the truth, Your Honours.
12 Q. This document, of which you must have the
13 original before you, is signed by Colonel Blaskic on
14 the 16th of April, but not only on the 16th of April;
15 late in the evening -- well, in the evening of the 16th
16 of April, at 1945 hours. And it reads:
17 "Battle orders for the defence of Kuber.
18 Extremist Muslim forces are advancing from the
19 direction of Gornje Zenica towards Kuber with the
20 intention of taking Kuber or cutting it off. Your
21 mission is to deploy reinforcements in Kuber with your
22 best-prepared and ablest forces, and defend Kuber
23 unflaggingly. Minimum force strength is a company.
24 Coordinate your operations with the Viteska Brigade,
25 because Kuber must not fall. Upon occupying the
1 defence lines, report to me in writing."
2 It speaks only of Muslim forces advancing and
3 of a mission to take the feature.
4 A. Your Honours, the conflict started in the
5 afternoon hours of 15th of April. That is when Kuber
6 was attacked. That is when the fighting started.
7 Q. Would you like to explain this document to
9 A. What I'm saying is true. And on the 16th the
10 ABiH army units were attacking Busovaca, and they were
11 grouping and attacking every day.
12 Q. What preparations for events on the 16th of
13 April had been made by the military, to your knowledge?
14 A. I said that I was the head of the civilian
15 HVO. I have practically nothing to do with the
16 military side.
17 Q. You say that.
18 MR. NICE: I'm afraid that the document I'd
19 like to lay on the ELMO is untranslated because it is
20 only just available. Perhaps not only just available.
21 No, it's only just selected. But may I nevertheless
22 lay one document on the ELMO. Mr. Naumovski wants to
23 say something.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
25 just what we have been saying in principle, not to use
1 the documents which have not been translated. I think
2 that that is how our own documents were handled. So
3 the objection is not to use the document because it
4 does not have a translation attached.
5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,
6 Mr. Nice. It is exactly what we had decided.
7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, unlike the position
8 of the Defence, we can't know in advance what a witness
9 is going to say; we can't then know everything that's
10 going to be relevant. They're always in a different
11 position, having had the statement for months or
12 years. If a witness comes along and says he's never
13 taken any part in military matters, and a document, a
14 short document, exists which could show the contrary,
15 in our submission --
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] If it's a
17 document that we are just using, we decided also to put
18 it on the ELMO and then let the witness read the
19 document and we will use the interpretation, in case it
20 is a short document, obviously.
21 MR. NICE: Might we have it for the witness
22 to look at it while it's on the ELMO.
23 Q. That's a document about the Home Guard, it's
24 signed by you, and there's one other to a similar
25 effect where you, I think, are appointing people to the
1 Home Guard. If you'd just like to look at this one as
2 well on the ELMO. They needn't be produced. These are
3 military matters and you're signing orders, aren't you?
4 A. I signed this document because this was
5 security of the facilities of vital interest, like the
6 PTT, and the Home Guard units were supposed to protect
7 it, to provide security for it, the Home Guards
8 consisting of older men.
9 MR. NICE: I needn't bother with the other
10 one, because I must make more speed. Thank you.
11 Q. And that document was simply over the one
12 signature, namely, your signature, wasn't it?
13 A. Correct, my signature, because I wanted to
14 protect the buildings of vital interest to the Busovaca
16 MR. NICE: Exhibit 861, please.
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I would like to
18 ask for a five-minute break. I am a diabetic and I
19 need to use the bathroom, please.
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] In which
21 case we are going to make a break and we will be back
22 at 3.40. So we'll start again at 3.40.
23 --- Break taken at 3.26 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 3.42 p.m.
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric, I
1 hope you're feeling better now.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Needless to
5 say, if you are not feeling well, if you have any
6 problem during your testimony, please let us know.
7 Mr. Nice, evidently we have to include the
8 break and we shall work, therefore, until quarter past
10 MR. NICE: Yes. I can tell the Court that to
11 finish at a quarter past four will inevitably involve
12 my simply pruning large chunks, and I won't be able to
13 raise all issues I probably should. I'm in the Court's
14 hands. But let me press on, in any event.
15 Q. 861 is a certificate, if you'd like to look
16 at it, please. Have you got the original in front of
17 you? It's a certificate. I don't think he has got the
18 original. It's only the English version on the ELMO.
19 This is a certificate signed by you -- he should have
20 861.1 -- here it is.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you got it? That's the original, if you
23 would just like to have a look at that, which is a
24 document signed by you saying that HVO members should
25 not harass a particular person who is a Muslim person,
1 of course, and Grubesic, you, and Kordic signed the
2 document. Harassment was going on, wasn't it?
3 A. As the displaced persons from other areas
4 kept arriving -- and I pointed out that first it was
5 the displaced people from Jajce after the fall of
6 Jajce, and then the Zenica Croats who were coming to
7 the Busovaca municipality -- their numbers grew. They
8 wanted to find shelter for themselves and they harassed
9 the Bosniak/Muslim population, which we wanted to
10 prevent at any cost, so as to prevent their being
11 expelled from their homes and harassed in other ways.
12 Q. It says here, "Busovaca HVO members," not
13 incomers. It couldn't be clearer. The HVO was
14 harassing people in Busovaca.
15 A. Your Honours, members of the HVO were people,
16 Croats, who were coming -- who had found themselves
17 there. They were incorporated into the Croatian armed
18 forces. They came from Jajce, Zenica, and later on,
19 Travnik. All this complicated the situation. They
20 were incorporated into the units.
21 Q. Exhibit 926, please. While that's being
22 found, I can tell you what it's about. It's about a
23 meeting an independent observer had with the imam of
24 Busovaca, and the imam spoke of you and he spoke of the
25 problems of the Muslims in Busovaca. It's annex K in
1 the witness McLeod's report. He spoke of asking you to
2 give them, the Muslims, protection and to give them a
3 telephone line, and complained of Muslims' houses being
4 taken over by Croats.
5 MR. NICE: If the usher would give that to
6 Ms. Verhaag, she can find it, or it's annex K,
8 Q. Was what the imam told the investigating
9 person correct?
10 A. As far as what the imam said, I pointed out
11 that the situation in Busovaca was difficult, that the
12 displaced people who were seeking shelter for
13 themselves were harassing the Muslim population. We
14 did all we could to protect those displaced people and
15 the local Muslim population because we did not want
16 them to leave Busovaca, but unfortunately what happened
17 was that they found themselves forced to leave.
18 I asked the people who were evicting Muslims
19 from the houses, I asked them why, and they said,
20 "Well, where should I live? I was also expelled." It
21 is terrible when --
22 Q. There's no need to repeat that. The imam
23 also said that between the 20th and 23rd of April, five
24 women of Ocenici, five women were killed and their
25 houses were burnt; just yes or no. True?
1 A. I don't know about it.
2 Q. But you accept that the HVO were killing some
3 people in the area in the time that we are discussing,
4 don't you?
5 A. It wasn't only the HVO who killed but the
6 Muslim units at Kacuni were also killing. From Kacuni,
7 dead bodies were arriving through Kacuni from the area
8 controlled by the ABiH.
9 Q. Nevertheless, a simple yes/no answer to my
10 question would help us. In the period of time with
11 which we are concerned, there were wholly unjustified
12 killings of Muslims in your area by members of the HVO;
14 A. There were, and I condemned such excesses. I
15 condemn every killing regardless of who has committed
16 it. Unfortunately that was the situation. People lost
17 their loved ones, and his vengefulness and the evil
18 side is awakened, and only those who experienced it can
19 understand it. There were people who had lost three
20 brothers. It is sad to look at all that. Everyone
21 suffered regardless of who they were, a Croat or
22 Bosniak. It was very sad. I hope it never repeats
24 Q. I want to show you one more document, I
25 think, at the moment, and then I may turn -- well, one
1 more document in the series.
2 While we're dealing with what you're saying
3 about crime, crimes were largely committed by
4 conscripts, weren't they? They weren't committed by
6 A. I said these conscripts were displaced people
7 who arrived from those areas and who were looking for
8 shelter for themselves. Had they not come, the
9 situation in Busovaca -- speaking specifically about
10 Busovaca -- had the displaced persons not arrived from
11 the eastern Bosnia area, from the north, they all
12 arrived and they were looking for shelter in a very
13 confined area --
14 Q. I'm going to have to stop you. We don't have
15 that much time. In September of 1993, do you accept
16 that you prepared a report on crime for the year, and
17 at that stage, September, it was two murders, one rape,
18 ten aggravated robberies, and six armed robberies, with
19 ten cases of planting explosive devices, and that was
20 the total that you recorded in a report you signed off,
21 or somebody else's report but you signed it. Do you
22 accept that?
23 A. I would like to see the document, please.
24 Q. If I have time I'll show it to you. Does it
25 sound about right?
1 A. I cannot say that I signed something if I
2 don't look at it.
3 Q. I'm going to come back to that if I have time
5 1217.1, please. This is a document of the
6 27th of September. It's from the European Monitors; it
7 relates to a meeting with you and how you were asked
8 about the situation of the Muslims in the town. You
9 said that they had difficulties to control the criminal
10 elements between the refugees, about 7.500. You were
11 trying everything to protect the remaining Muslims, of
12 which you said there were about 100. You promised that
13 an investigation would be done to find responsibility
14 for the mosque. When asked if you'd met the imam to
15 discuss the situation of the Muslims, you denied that
16 and said you would probably do this after the
17 investigation. And then there was this comment: "It
18 seems that the imam is considered more as a hostage
19 than as a conversation partner."
20 Is that all accurate?
21 A. That is not correct, because I respect the
22 imam as a man and I wanted him to stay in Busovaca, and
23 I continue to respect him to date. I also wanted to
24 conduct an investigation in order to uncover the
25 perpetrators of this.
1 Q. You're reported as going on to say this.
2 Asked your opinion considering a possible peace, you
4 "As long as Mr. Izetbegovic wants more
5 territory, there would be no agreement and the Croats
6 in Central Bosnia would fight until the death, and the
7 only Muslim leader who could reach an agreement would
8 be Mr. Abdic, but they were aware that he hadn't enough
9 power to influence the Muslim hardliners."
10 Is that a correct reflection of your then
12 A. It is correct that I said so, because
13 Mr. Izetbegovic advocated a unitary Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina, and not taking into account Croats. And
15 when Croats pointed out that there would be an exodus
16 out of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Izetbegovic did
18 Q. They then went to see the imam, and he said
19 there were only 38 Muslims left in September. He was
20 very afraid, and was even afraid of having had contact
21 with the international observers. That's about right,
22 isn't it?
23 A. That is probably right, if he went to imam
24 after our conversation, but I don't know, because I did
25 not control him.
1 Q. In another of the International Community's
2 reports, that I haven't got time to find and show you
3 at the moment, you're recorded as referring to the fact
4 that Muslims had a higher birth rate than Croats. Was
5 that something that preyed on your mind?
6 A. It is correct that the birth rate of Muslims
7 is higher than Croats, but it doesn't mean anything
8 taken out of the context. But there are facts whose
9 birth rate is higher than whose.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
11 International Community, did you, as is recorded?
12 A. I did say, and I mentioned it. I don't know
13 what the conversation was, but there is no dispute that
14 the birth rate of Muslims is higher than that of
15 Croats. I don't see anything bad in that. That's the
17 Q. You will be aware that in very recent weeks,
18 documents have been being produced in Zagreb following
19 the change in the government. Are you aware of that?
20 It's in the newspapers extensively.
21 A. I don't know about that. What I follow in
22 the media is what you said, but I did not see any
23 publicly released document.
24 Q. At the time with which we are concerned, in
25 1993 and 1994, you were the president of the Busovaca
1 HVO; correct?
2 A. Yes, of the civilian side of the government.
3 Q. And in any event, personalities like
4 Kraljevic would be known to you?
5 A. Person Kraljevic?
6 Q. Darko Kraljevic.
7 A. Darko Kraljevic, I met him in mid-1993, I
8 believe in mid-June of 1993.
9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there's a document
10 I'd like this witness' comments on, if it can be
11 produced, please. I know that the Defence have either
12 been provided with it directly from Zagreb or,
13 alternatively, they've had it provided to them by a
15 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, we object to this
16 unauthenticated document on the grounds of hearsay,
17 double hearsay. It's not signed by anybody, we have no
18 idea who prepared it, there's no indication of who
19 prepared it, or when, and it's absolutely prejudicial.
20 In the absence of a better foundation being laid for
21 this document, we think that introduction of this
22 document amounts to deprivation of the rights of the
23 accused to confront his accuser. It's a violation of
24 Article 21 and it's also a violation of Rule 89 (c) and
25 (d). It has no probative effect, and the prejudicial
1 effect is self-evident, from an anonymous source. So
2 we object to it in the absence of the Prosecution
3 laying a foundation as to who wrote it, and when, and
4 proving it was based on firsthand knowledge rather than
5 multiple layers of hearsay.
6 MR. NICE: As the Court knows, the providers
7 or potential providers of documents have not provided
8 documents, have been obstructive and non-cooperative
9 until very recently. If documents come into our hands
10 late, it is no fault of ours. The fault can be traced
12 These documents will, or may, feature in
13 another way at a later stage in the case, of course.
14 But where there's a witness who can plainly deal with
15 the content of the report, the witness should have a
16 chance to do so now rather than to have no opportunity,
17 and for the document, if it goes in due course in
18 another way, to go in without the advantage of his
20 The Court being professional Judges, as it
21 from time to time reminds us, is able to deal with
22 evidence on a contingent basis, but what is important
23 is that this witness should be given the opportunity to
24 deal with this document, and in particular with the
25 passages that he should be expected to be knowledgeable
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where are they coming from?
3 MR. NICE: It comes from Zagreb. In case
4 there's any -- it may be that Your Honours haven't been
5 following matters as revealed in the press.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,
7 could you tell us, and will you please speak slower so
8 we will be able to follow. And you tried to say
9 several times: Are you challenging the authenticity of
10 this document?
11 MR. SAYERS: Absolutely. We have absolutely
12 no idea who prepared it, when it was prepared, what the
13 sources of information were upon which it was
14 prepared. It's not signed. We think it's a complete
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,
17 can you help us with the problem of authenticity?
18 MR. NICE: At the moment we are in a position
19 to draw to your attention the stamp on the front of the
20 page beside the reference to HIS and a signature, which
21 is the Croatian Intelligence Service. We were able to
22 tell you that this document has been provided to us, as
23 indeed I know to Mr. Kovacic, from one of the
24 providers -- the provider in Zagreb of documents at the
1 We would respectfully remind the Chamber that
2 there is material going to show that the Defence
3 lawyers have had access to sources in Croatia, as well
4 as in the Federation, far longer than we have, and that
5 prima facie this must be a genuine document. It's
6 provided, as the Chamber will also recall, or may
7 recall, either wholly or in part, pursuant to orders
8 made by this Court for production of documents. Some
9 of that's been --
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
11 Mr. Naumovski wanted to add something.
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] With your
13 leave, Your Honours, but very briefly.
14 The Defence received this document only after
15 it learnt from the press that it had been disclosed to
16 the Prosecution and some other addresses. So we
17 received this document after the Prosecutor's office.
18 That is the first thing.
19 Secondly, this document is copied, so that it
20 seems both these pages belong to one and the same
21 document. However, the original has this first page,
22 and it looks indeed as it looks here. And the second
23 page, which seems to be annexed, is this unsigned
24 document, which doesn't show the source, which doesn't
25 show who did what, and so on and so forth. And that is
1 why we challenge the authenticity of the document which
2 is annexed. So we are objecting to the annex because
3 that is a document which has not been authenticated or
4 anything. And the Defence, of course, is fully -- has
5 all the grounds, all the reason, to believe that it was
6 a fabricated document. We do not know, of course, the
7 purpose behind it. So we had absolutely no advantage
8 over the --
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank
10 you very much.
11 MR. KOVACIC: It is quite clear, and I
12 believe that the Prosecution does have a document which
13 I transmitted to them this morning, so probably it was
14 not seen. There are two Defenses. We received the
15 document from the government of Croatia, indeed from
16 the office of the president, on May 20, and that was at
17 least four weeks after the Prosecution got it. And
18 that was after we entered a very bitter discussion with
19 the government based on the fact that --
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, no.
21 Listen. Listen, Mr. Kovacic. Wait. We are not going
22 to start this discussion now, because it is already 10
23 past 4.00 and it is Friday also. Tell us, please: Do
24 you have the same document -- this same document, and
25 was it given to you by the government?
1 MR. KOVACIC: This is one of five documents
2 in a set which the government gave us on the 20th of
3 May. Not the government. Let me be precise. The
4 presidency, the office of the president of the state.
5 There were five documents in one and the same sets.
6 This is only one of these documents.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 So you have the same documents which were given you by
9 the office of the president of the Republic of Croatia;
10 is that so?
11 MR. KOVACIC: To be quite precise, Your
12 Honour, I sent a letter, I guess, two days ago to the
13 Prosecution where I asked the same fact, because I
14 never saw -- I did not have -- I was not in the
15 position to see what actually Prosecution got from the
16 office of the president and what I got. I only
17 presumed --
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No. But do
19 you have this document which we're now examining?
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It was
21 one of the set of five documents.
22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I wanted to have
25 something clarified. In the English copy, the person
1 who signs on the first page -- there's no signature
2 there, because it's the English copy, but when we look
3 at the Croatian, you can see a signature. Is that
4 person purporting to be the author of what follows on
5 the --
6 MR. NICE: No.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No?
8 MR. NICE: No, no. As we understand it, this
9 is a report being provided by the director of HIS to
10 Tudjman, but the report itself is not signed off by
11 that individual. So it is an enclosure or an
12 attachment. It's a separate document. So -- at least
13 that's my understanding of the position. So the
14 document is a document as a whole and is to be
15 construed in that way. But does he specifically sign
16 off the report? No, he doesn't, as I understand it.
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: So we don't know who is the
18 author of the document here attached.
19 MR. NICE: You're absolutely right. We don't
20 know who is the author, whether it's the same or a
21 different person, but it is sent under the authority of
22 the person signing and emerges from the archives of the
23 state in the way that I've described.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What indicates that it is
25 sent under the authority of the person signing?
1 MR. NICE: Because of how -- well, because it
2 goes with it, because it's forwarded with it. The two
3 documents are associated together.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Did you receive it from the
5 presidency of Croatia as it is now, as you --
6 MR. NICE: No. We received it as the two
7 pieces of paper, first that side and then separately
8 that sheet. They're not one sheet of paper; they're
9 two separate sheets of paper, again, as I understand
10 it, but they're associated together as covering
11 document and report.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, we
14 shall admit this document but in the fashion that you
15 were given it, that is, as a document which was given
16 you by the Office of the President and which will serve
17 you in your cross-examination today. Of course,
18 needless to say, the probative value accorded to this
19 document will be determined by the Chamber in due
20 time. Naturally, with regard to the weight and
21 probative value of this document, it can be challenged
22 also and will be determined by the Chamber in due
24 MR. NICE: Thank you.
25 Q. If you could look, please, Mr. Maric, at the
1 original in your language, and we'll place it on the
2 ELMO, it's headed, "The appointment of Darko Kraljevic
3 to the HVO General Staff may lead to the disintegration
4 of the defence organisation in Vitez and to the fall of
5 Vitez into Muslim hands," and the report, like the
6 covering letter, is dated the 18th of February, 1994.
7 Now, it then says as follows: "We found out
8 from reliable sources that a meeting will be held
9 today, the 18th of February, in which the status of
10 Darko Kraljevic will be discussed. At that meeting
11 Darko Kraljevic will be given the rank of HVO Colonel
12 and appointed to the HVO General Staff."
13 Were you aware of Darko Kraljevic becoming,
14 or indeed hoping to become, an HVO Colonel?
15 MR. SAYERS: Objection, Your Honour. Double
16 hearsay. We have no idea who wrote this report; we
17 have no idea who the reliable source is.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,
20 you know well what our position is concerning this
21 issue. It is still the same jurisprudence. The weight
22 and the probative value will be determined by the
24 Mr. Maric, did you hear any talk about this
25 or not? And we shall, of course, appreciate at a later
1 stage the weight we should accord to your statement.
2 So the question that is asked of you --
3 A. I am not aware of this event at all.
4 MR. NICE:
5 Q. The next paragraph begins in this way:
6 "According to a reliable source, Darko Kraljevic, with
7 the help of Dario Kordic and Ignac Kostroman, intends
8 to use this appointment to the HVO General Staff to
9 destroy Colonel Blaskic. There has been a concealed
10 and very bitter conflict between Dario Kordic and
11 Kostroman with the presidents of Travnik, Novi Travnik,
12 Vitez, and Busovaca HVO in Central Bosnia for quite
13 some time."
14 Now, pausing there and taking it in reverse
15 order, had there been an issue in respect of which the
16 presidents of Travnik, Novi Travnik, Vitez, and
17 Busovaca HVOs had been allies?
18 MR. SAYERS: Once again, Your Honour,
19 objection. Double hearsay. I apologise for
20 interrupting, but I want to ensure we create a clear
21 record here for future purposes. Once again, double
22 hearsay. We don't know who wrote this report. That
23 person, an unidentified, anonymous author, is quoting
24 an allegedly reliable source who, again, we have no
25 idea as to the identity of.
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,
2 we shall ask you not to interrupt us again on this
3 issue. You have had the opportunity to explain your
4 position; it is in the transcript and it is on record.
5 The position of the Chamber is once again the
6 same. We shall hear what the witness tells us. As for
7 the hearsay, as we have done before, we shall act in
8 the same way and we shall decide what weight and what
9 value to accord to what is said.
10 Mr. Maric, will you answer the question.
11 A. Your Honours, as for this document, I am not
12 familiar with it at all. I do not know what was
13 discussed in this document.
14 MR. NICE:
15 Q. What I'm asking you, and it relates to the
16 contents of the document but it comes from your memory,
17 is this: Was there an issue in this time, leading up
18 to February 1994, where the presidents of Travnik, Novi
19 Travnik, Vitez, and the Busovaca HVOs were allies, an
20 issue where you were working together to achieve an
22 A. I cannot answer when I simply cannot remember
23 when the meeting was, where it was. I simply haven't a
25 Q. Well, think back. You've come here and given
1 us a great deal of detail, as you told us, from your
2 memory which, you say, required no help from
3 documents. Was there an issue where you four HVO
4 presidents were either associated with, it's not
5 entirely clear, or alternatively against Kordic and
6 Kostroman on an issue that related, it would appear, to
7 Kraljevic? Was there such an issue?
8 A. Your Honours, I repeat once again: We were
9 never against Kordic or anyone, and so I cannot speak
10 about something that is not true. I cannot talk about
11 this document that I know nothing about. This is the
12 first time I hear about it.
13 Q. Were you against Blaskic, all of you, at some
15 A. How could one be against a man fighting for
16 his people?
17 Q. Then I'm not going to go through the rest of
18 it line by line, not only because of the lateness of
19 the hour but for other reasons, but just tell me --
20 remember what I asked you earlier, think back,
21 please -- Mr. Kordic, did he, as time went by, assume
22 more military authority, ever more military authority?
23 A. I said, and I affirm to this day, that Kordic
24 was a politician not a soldier. He was always a
25 politician and he never aspired to run the army.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to take
3 that document any further with this witness because
4 we've passed the passage where he's specifically
5 identified, and that's what I wanted his answers on.
6 I'm in this position: There's a great deal
7 more I would have asked if time had been unlimited, and
8 I certainly haven't joined issue with this witness on
9 all the topics that he gave evidence on yesterday and
10 to which we would wish to ask questions. However, I am
11 content to end my cross-examination on the basis that
12 the witness is going home this weekend. But if there's
13 an application, for example, to have his re-examination
14 taken on Monday so that he's going to be here in any
15 event, well, then I'd ask for a little more time on
16 Monday to deal with some of the central issues that I
17 would have been dealing with in any event if I hadn't
18 been constrained by time.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Mr. Nice.
21 Mr. Naumovski.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
23 so many subjects were brought up and I also would have
24 a number of questions, but I know that Mr. Maric has to
25 go home. So perhaps I could manage to finish it all in
1 less than ten minutes, or perhaps ten minutes. I would
2 not go into all the subjects. If you give me ten
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,
5 Mr. Naumovski.
6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
7 Your Honours.
8 Re-examined by Mr. Naumovski:
9 Q. We shall begin from the end, Mr. Maric. From
10 this document, and you heard what we think about it,
11 the gist of what you were asked now is that there was a
12 very serious fallout between the presidents of the HVO,
13 that is, the civilian government in Travnik, Novi
14 Travnik, Vitez, and Busovaca and therefore you
15 personally on the one hand, and Mr. Dario Kordic and
16 Mr. Ignac Kostroman on the other, because of the whole
17 situation in the Lasva Valley. Did that ever really
19 A. Your Honours, I repeat once again: There was
20 never any conflict between the civilian side of the HVO
21 and the military side of the HVO.
22 Q. But this also speaks of a conflict with
23 Mr. Kordic personally and Mr. Kostroman.
24 A. I said no, not ever with the two of them.
25 Q. To conclude, so this is a false claim in this
2 A. It is false because I know that there never
3 was any conflict.
4 Q. Thank you. Document 861 is the certificate
5 with three signatures; the brigade commander, Dusko
6 Grubesic, then you in the centre as the prime minister,
7 and the vice-president of the Croat Community of
8 Herceg-Bosna, Mr. Dario Kordic. Would you agree with
9 me that this document shows best this distribution of
10 power because it is signed by the military commander, a
11 representative of the civilian government, that is,
12 you, and Mr. Dario Kordic as the vice-president of the
13 Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna, as the politician?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. This document about Kuber, the
16 attack on Kuber, Colonel Blaskic's order of the 16th of
17 April, 1993, you say this order does not interfere with
18 what you say, that the battle on Kuber began on the
20 A. The battle on Kuber began on the 15th, and
21 the Muslim forces were advancing on the territory of
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
24 without wasting time, I should like to draw your
25 attention to item 1 in this document, Z684, where it
1 says that the Muslim forces are advancing with a view
2 to taking Kuber in full which does not exclude any
3 previous fighting. Very well. Thank you.
4 Q. You said that you attended a meeting in
5 Croatia with President Tudjman in March 1993. I had
6 several questions but there is no time for that, so
7 only one question. Mr. Kordic was not at that meeting
8 with you.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Some reports, some milinfosums,
11 of the British Battalion were read here about events on
12 the 20th, that is, 21st of January, 1991 in Busovaca.
13 You were asked by the Prosecutor a very long question
14 and you answered it in part but I don't think that you
15 answered all parts of that question. My question is as
17 On those days, the 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd of
18 January, 1993, did the authorities in Busovaca organise
19 any attack on Muslims?
20 A. The authorities never organised an attack on
21 the Muslims. Never. I swear by my life.
22 Q. So there wasn't a plan of attack.
23 A. Never.
24 Q. Incidentally, you were asked by the
25 Prosecutor if you had talked to the investigators of
1 this Tribunal. Tell us, Mr. Maric, did the
2 investigators of The Hague Tribunal ever invite you, as
3 the president of the HVO at that time, to have any
5 A. No, I was never invited to any meeting.
6 Q. So are you telling the Court that you, as the
7 president of the government in those years, 1992/1993,
8 that is, 1994, nobody ever asked you with a view to
9 talk, with a view to establish -- to finding facts to
10 establish the situation in Busovaca in 1993?
11 A. No, I was never invited to discuss these
12 events in 1992, 1993, 1994. Nobody, ever.
13 Q. Thank you. There were two or three questions
14 which came down to your knowledge about an alleged
15 fallout between Colonel Blaskic and Mr. Kordic.
16 A. I do not know that there has been ever any
17 fallout between Mr. Kordic and Colonel Blaskic.
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I do not want
19 to waste any more time by showing the witness D52/1.
20 It's a document that we adduced, and I should like
21 merely to draw attention to item 4 of this document,
22 showing that Colonel Blaskic is suggesting that
23 Mr. Kordic, as the president of the HZ HB, should
24 attend some talks in Sarajevo. That is all that I
25 wanted to draw the attention of the Court to.
1 Q. You already said something about Mr. Kordic's
2 photograph. Did you ever see Mr. Kordic with any rifle
3 or any weapons for the duration of the war?
4 A. I never saw him with a rifle or a weapon.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. You were shown
6 document Z120. It is an order, I don't know if you
7 remember, about sending a unit to Rasni Do [phoen], a
8 unit of 100 men or something, and it is signed by the
9 vice-president of the HVO, Dario Kordic, and the
10 secretary of the HVO, Ignac Kostroman. Did they have
11 any military responsibilities, the two gentlemen who
12 have signed here?
13 A. No.
14 Q. This is the 1st of June, 1992; Z120 bears
15 that date. That is the document. Do you know if the
16 commander before Colonel Blaskic was Tole who was
17 captured by the Serbs?
18 A. I cannot remember right now.
19 Q. Would you agree that this document was issued
20 before Colonel Blaskic became the commander of the
21 Operative Zone?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. That is, the 1st of June, 1991, it is the
24 period of time when the power was not yet divided that
25 you told us about.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you. A document has very
3 often come up here in this case, Z76.1, and that is the
4 delivery list or the shipping order. We have another
5 document, Z78A and B, and this document, Mr. Kordic
6 signed, but that is in the capacity that you already
7 saw, the secretary of the secretariat for the People's
8 Defence. We saw it, but perhaps, sir, you can
9 enlighten us. Pursuant to the order of the Ministry of
10 Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, an
11 indication of the need to urgently remove, that is,
12 dislocate finished products from the weapons factory,
13 Bratstvo, in Novi Travnik.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember if at that time everything
16 possible was done to take as many weapons from the JNA
17 as possible?
18 A. Quite so, because a year and a half before
19 that, the weapons that were held by the Territorial
20 Defence of Busovaca, that is, in all municipalities,
21 all these weapons were withdrawn and stood in the
22 barracks; that is, it was taken away. In point of
23 fact, it was taken away from the TO, which could manage
24 those weapons.
25 Q. Yes. We have to be mindful of the time, so
1 will you please keep your answers as short as
2 possible. Did the Busovaca HVO ever have at its
3 disposal those sophisticated means?
4 A. No, never.
5 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor showed you a set
6 of Official Gazettes of the Republic of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina reporting that these were the only
8 lawful laws, that is, that the only valid laws were the
9 ones carried by that Official Gazette. Is that
11 A. I said that these sets of the Official
12 Gazette never reached the municipality of Busovaca.
13 These, I would have certainly had them in my hands as
14 the mayor of Busovaca.
15 Q. Then let us try to explain it to the Court as
16 follows: After the conclusion of the Dayton Accords,
17 did the Dayton Accords accept as valid all three types
18 of laws; that is, laws adopted by the presidency of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, laws adopted by the Croat
20 Community, that is, Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and
21 the laws passed by the Republika Srpska in
23 A. When the Dayton and Washington Accords were
24 concluded, all the laws of all the three sides became
25 valid, until such time -- until such -- until the
1 beginning of the functioning of the parliament. Now it
2 is adopting official documents.
3 Q. But since not all the documents have been
4 adopted as yet for Bosnia-Herzegovina, there are still
5 some laws of the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna which
6 are still in effect?
7 A. Yes, indeed, there are still some of these
8 laws which are still in effect.
9 Q. Now, one question to do with the legal, that
10 is, legitimate power. You explained to us why you
11 thought that the Croats had legitimate right to
12 introduce their authority.
13 Just one sentence. Do you agree with me that
14 the lawful and legitimate power of the Croat Defence
15 Council, that is, Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna and
16 the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, was the counterpart
17 which was recognised by the International Community
18 together with other two counterparts in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, both at the time of the conclusion
20 of the Dayton Accords and the Washington Agreements?
21 A. Yes. Well, it was the basis for both the
22 Washington and the Dayton Accords.
23 Q. So it merely goes to confirm the legality and
24 the legitimacy of the power which was set up in the
25 days when the old power had fallen apart?
1 A. Quite so.
2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
3 just a few more moments. Just a couple of questions.
4 Q. A great deal was said, or rather the
5 Prosecutor characterised it and said Tudjman was
6 sending weapons, and you told us about different ways
7 in which weapons arrived.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
9 Mr. Naumovski, I must ask the interpreters also to be
10 patient with us. We shall accord a few more minutes.
11 I suppose they agree. Thank you. Because they also
12 have their union rights. Thank you very so much for
13 being so cooperative.
14 THE INTERPRETER: And could Mr. Naumovski
15 please slow down.
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
17 I can confirm that I will finish in five minutes. But
18 on the other hand, I'm being warned that I have to slow
19 down, so it is difficult to both be slow and finish
20 it. But thank you very much. I shall do my best.
21 Q. So the collection of weapons took different
22 forms; it was both taken away from the JNA, purchased,
23 and so on and so forth?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you agree with me that it was in late
1 1991 and early 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. After April 1993, that is, after this second
4 conflict began, and then it lasted that whole year,
5 that is, until the next spring, are you aware that in
6 Croatia a large number of Muslim refugees from the
7 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina were accommodated
8 in the Republic of Croatia?
9 A. Of course I do. There were over 200.000 who
10 were accommodated in the Republic of Croatia.
11 Q. When you first mentioned it, the transcript
12 recorded 500 expelled persons. That is why I had to
13 ask you that. Are you aware that --
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I didn't ask
15 questions about that. It's one of the various topics
16 that I haven't covered. And to put a huge leading
17 question in that form is valueless to the exercise,
19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, that is
20 in the record, in the transcript, Your Honours, and
21 that's why I reacted, because there was a figure of 500
22 mentioned, and that is not realistic, needless to say.
23 Q. Are you also aware that in Split, in
24 Zagreb --
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
1 Mr. Naumovski, will you please -- I do not remember
2 either 500.000 [as interpreted]. Will you just move
3 on, please. Will you please move on to the next
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, of
6 course, Your Honour. But let me just finish this. We
7 shall not dwell on this.
8 Q. Are you aware that throughout the war between
9 Muslims and Croats in Central Bosnia, the Republic of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina had its logistical and military
11 centers in Split and Zagreb, in the Republic of
13 A. Excuse me. I didn't understand your
15 Q. I'm saying, are you aware that for the
16 duration of the war between the Muslims and between
17 Muslims and Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the
18 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had its logistical
19 centers in Split and in Zagreb in the territory of the
20 Republic of Croatia?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And as for the speech on the 16th of January,
23 1992, and what Mr. Kostroman had said, you already
24 explained it to the Prosecutor. My only question is:
25 You said that you disagreed with that political option?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that on the table
3 there were quite a number of political options until
4 the referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Well, yes, of course there were all sorts of
7 Q. In your conversations with President Tudjman,
8 was there ever any mention about the violent takeover
9 of power?
10 A. No. That was never brought up.
11 Q. There was another question, and the
12 Prosecutor asked who was the politician who managed to
13 run the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina? And I shall ask
14 you: Did any politician in Bosnia-Herzegovina ever run
15 the army in which the war --
16 A. No, never.
17 Q. Was there any politician who ran, who led the
18 army, who headed the army?
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We are not
20 coming back to that point. The witness has already
21 spoken to us about Mr. Boban, his role, about the
22 politicians and the military. I do not think we have
23 to go back to that.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
25 I won't, Your Honour. No, I will not do that.
1 Perhaps my final question.
2 Q. At the time when the HVO government in
3 Busovaca was set up in May 1992, was there a central
4 government, central authority in Bosnia and Herzegovina
5 which could organise life in the territory of the
6 municipality of Busovaca?
7 A. No.
8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 I really would have very many questions, but I am fully
10 aware of the time, so I should like to thank you for
11 the patience and to thank Mr. Maric for his answers.
12 Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
14 Mr. Naumovski.
15 Mr. Kovacic, we have forgotten you. Do
16 you -- I still have to ask you: Do you have anything
17 to add?
18 MR. KOVACIC: No, sir, I don't.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Mr. Kovacic.
21 Very well. Mr. Maric, you have finished
22 giving your evidence before the International Criminal
23 Tribunal. Thank you very much for coming here to
24 testify before the International Criminal Tribunal.
25 You are now free to go.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The session
3 is adjourned and we shall resume --
4 Mr. Nice, yes.
5 MR. NICE: One thing.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I wanted to
7 say that we shall be resuming at half past 9.00 with
8 Judge May and Judge Robinson, as it has been announced
9 to you. As for me, I shall be on another case.
10 Yes, Mr. Nice.
11 MR. NICE: I'm simply going to ask, through
12 the Court, whether we could have the summaries for next
13 week's witness, who of course musn't be mentioned,
14 immediately, because they are in each case indicated as
15 substantial witnesses, and the difficulties of
16 preparing at short notice are very great.
17 And indeed the second thing I would ask is
18 that we can have a list of witnesses that extends
19 beyond next week, for I don't think we've got one at
20 the moment.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Wait. Could
22 the witness please go. I believe we should allow the
23 witness to leave.
24 Usher, will you please escort the witness.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers.
2 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour. The witnesses
3 for next week are beginning to arrive today, and we
4 will provide the Court and the Prosecution -- if the
5 Court still wants the summaries, if it feels that
6 they're at all useful, we're more than happy to
7 continue the exercise. I'm sure the Court can
8 appreciate that it's an extremely substantial exercise
9 putting these documents together, but we're happy to
10 continue to do that and we will provide them to the
11 Prosecution in a timely fashion as soon as they're
13 We anticipate that the first one should be
14 available to be delivered to the Prosecution first
15 thing tomorrow morning, maybe 10.00 or 11.00, and the
16 other three should be available, once they've been
17 prepared, certainly by the -- before the beginning of
18 the first session on Monday. So that way the
19 Prosecution should have them all.
20 Insofar as a batting order is concerned, we
21 will give the Prosecution a batting order for the week
22 of the 20th. We haven't made final decisions regarding
23 those witnesses yet, but we'll alert them before the
24 end of next week and try to give them a batting order
25 for the next two weeks.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Will Mr. Sayers slow down,
3 MR. SAYERS: My apologies to the
5 We'll give a batting order for two weeks to
6 the Prosecution sometime towards the end of next week.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] With regard
9 to the fortnight list, for a list, we agreed. We
10 discussed. We do, yes; we agree with you.
11 As for the summaries, that is, the text which
12 concerns the examination-in-chief of witnesses, we
13 believe the Chamber considers them very useful, because
14 they help us to prepare, to follow easier. I cannot,
15 of course, encourage you to continue, because this is a
16 serious work.
17 But, Mr. Nice, are you satisfied with what
18 has just been proposed?
19 MR. NICE: As to the provisions of summaries,
20 thank you very much.
21 As to the provision of a witness list, I
22 think the provision of a list only in the middle of
23 next week is really very late. I think, by and large,
24 the minimum that the Rule imposed right at the
25 beginning of the case required was that there should be
1 a notice the next two weeks of witnesses. And really
2 we should have, at any given time, a notice of the next
3 two weeks to come.
4 Of course I'm not unsympathetic to
5 difficulties in the way of getting witnesses here, and
6 of course decisions made will be contingent upon the
7 performance of earlier witnesses. I understand that.
8 Nevertheless, I would respectfully invite the Court to
9 make it really the case that there's always a minimum
10 of two weeks of -- two working weeks of witnesses
11 available for us to prepare.
12 MR. SAYERS: If I may, Your Honour, there
13 will be. The week of June 12th, I believe, is --
14 there's no court that week. So if we give the
15 Prosecution a list of witnesses for the next two weeks,
16 it's going to be the week of the 20th and the week of
17 the 27th. They can --
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] This is what
19 I was going to say. Any matter as of the next week,
20 yes, there will be one week to prepare. But it doesn't
21 prevent you, of course, to give them really as they
22 come so that the Prosecution could be prepared. So
23 tomorrow you will have the summary for the witnesses
24 who will be here on Monday, and I suppose that you will
25 have them 24 hours in the advance for the witnesses who
1 will follow. Thank you.
2 This session is adjourned.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
4 at 4.49 p.m., to be reconvened on
5 Monday the 5th day of June, 2000,
6 at 9.30 a.m.