Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27952

 1                          Wednesday, 6th December 2000.

 2                          [Ruling]

 3                          [Open session]

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  The Trial Chamber will give its ruling on the

 7    evidentiary issues, those relating to Witness AO and the audiotape.  We'll

 8    deal with the length of speeches.  The rulings as to the admissibility of

 9    the exhibit we will make later this week.

10            I begin then with Witness AO.  The Trial Chamber ordered this

11    witness to return for cross-examination on material which was disclosed

12    after his giving evidence and which material demonstrated inconsistencies

13    with his evidence and would therefore serve to test his credibility.  A

14    subpoena was issued for the witness to appear on the 17th of November.  He

15    did not do so for reasons which have yet to be ascertained and into which

16    we do not have to go.

17            The Defence now submit that his evidence should be struck from the

18    record, that is, disregard it or exclude it.  The Prosecution, on the

19    other hand, submit that it would be wrong to exclude all his evidence, and

20    the Trial Chamber should exercise its own judgement as to which parts of

21    the evidence to accept and which to reject.  However, the fact remains

22    that there was substantial enough material to warrant the witness' return

23    for cross-examination.

24            The Trial Chamber can only guess what effect on his credibility

25    that cross-examination would have had, making it a very difficult exercise

Page 27953

 1    to decide which parts of his evidence to accept and which to reject.  It

 2    seems to the Trial Chamber that the fairest course is to reject all his

 3    evidence, which we do under Rule 89(D), on the ground that any probative

 4    value which his evidence might have had is substantially outweighed by the

 5    need to ensure a fair trial since his failure to return for

 6    cross-examination has meant that his credibility could not be properly

 7    challenged.

 8            I would also add that some of the evidence he gave was -- much of

 9    the evidence, in fact, he gave was the subject of controversy and dispute

10    and, therefore, to rely on it in the circumstances would not be just.

11            I turn next to a ruling on the admissibility of the audiotape,

12    Exhibit Z2801.4.  I set out the history of the matter as the Trial Chamber

13    finds it.  This tape was produced in evidence by Mr. Edin Husic, now a

14    military attache to the Bosnian Embassy in Washington.  The tape was

15    recorded in January 1993 in Zenica.  The witness kept one of two identical

16    recordings according to his evidence.  It was handed to an investigator of

17    the ICTY in December 1999.

18            This tape came to be known as Exhibit 2808.1.  However, before

19    handing over the tape, the witness made a copy which he retained.  When he

20    came to give evidence in this case in February of this year, he brought

21    the copy with him and it was duly produced and played in court as Exhibit

22    2801.4.

23            After the witness had given evidence, the tape, which was not

24    played, 2808.1, was retained by the Prosecutor while that which has been

25    played was retained by the Registry, that is, 2801.4.  Copies of that were

Page 27954

 1    given to the Prosecution and Defence.  This was a Maxell make of tape, the

 2    type which Mr. Husic confirmed that he had produced in court.  He so

 3    confirmed when he gave evidence earlier or rather just last month.  The

 4    Trial Chamber accepts the evidence of Mr. Husic on this point.

 5            The history then was that both sides obtained expert reports and

 6    the Tribunal heard evidence from Mr. Koenig for the Defence and

 7    Mr. Broeders for the Prosecution, but the upshot was, as Mr. Sayers now

 8    rightly concedes, that it was impossible to determine whether a copy of an

 9    audiotape had been tampered with.  Therefore, there is no evidence that

10    this tape has been tampered with, and to challenge its authenticity on

11    that ground is not open to the Defence.

12            However, Mr. Sayers submits that there has been a violation of

13    Rule 81(C), which requires the Registry to retain exhibits, and therefore

14    the evidence should be excluded under Rule 95 since its admission would

15    seriously damage the integrity of the proceedings.

16            The history of the matter as set out and as the Trial Chamber

17    finds shows that there has been no violation of Rule 81(C).  The Trial

18    Chamber finds that the Registry, in this case, retained the exhibit and

19    therefore the Defence submission fails.  We would add this:  Even if there

20    had been a violation of the Rule, it is not at all necessary that the

21    evidence would have been excluded.  Such a violation or any violation of

22    the Rules can only lead to the exclusion of evidence if the admission

23    would seriously damage the integrity of the proceedings.

24            The tape, Exhibit 2801.4, will therefore be admitted.  Of course,

25    issues relating to the weight and significance to be given to the evidence

Page 27955

 1    on the tape will be determined by the Trial Chamber.

 2            I turn finally to the question of speeches, about which there were

 3    submissions yesterday, and their length.  Given the time available and

 4    doing the best that we can to divide it equitably, we have decided that

 5    the Prosecution will have four hours and each Defence counsel will have

 6    three hours.  We will announce the timetable in due course.

 7            Mr. Sayers, I think it's for you to call the evidence.

 8            MR. SAYERS:  The next witness we would call, our first rejoinder

 9    witness, Mr. President, is Zoran Maric.

10                          [The witness entered court]

11            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  The witness is subject to the declaration which

12    he took earlier on when he gave his evidence.  Yes, there's no need for

13    him to take it again.

14            MR. SAYERS:  I'm obliged, Mr. President.

15                          WITNESS:  ZORAN MARIC

16                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                          Examined by Mr. Sayers:

18       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Maric.  Just a few very brief matters of

19    background.

20            I believe that you're currently the President of the Parliament in

21    the Central Bosnia province of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22       A.   That is correct.

23       Q.   You are also a member of the House of Representatives both of the

24    Federation and of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25       A.   I am, yes.

Page 27956

 1       Q.   Do you have a criminal record at all, Mr. Maric?

 2       A.   Never.

 3       Q.   Mr. Maric, were you in Vitez at any time on April the 15th, 1993,

 4    the day before the fighting broke out in Vitez municipality?

 5       A.   Your Honours, I was never in Vitez on the 15th.

 6       Q.   Mr. Maric, we heard from a witness last week who claims that he

 7    saw you in the headquarters of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone during

 8    the afternoon of April the 15th at a meeting supposedly held between

 9    civilian political leaders and the military commanders in the Central

10    Bosnia Operative Zone, including Colonel Blaskic.  Is there any truth in

11    that?  Were you there?

12       A.   Your Honours, I was never, on the 15th of April, in Vitez, nor was

13    I with those gentlemen.

14       Q.   Have you ever heard anything, sir, about such a meeting being held

15    in the last seven and a half years?

16       A.   No, I have never heard that there was a meeting there that day.

17       Q.   Did you ever participate in some sort of a vote between political

18    and military leaders of the HVO to initiate a war or to initiate combat

19    activities in Vitez municipality on April the 15th or at any time?

20       A.   I have said that I never participated in such a meeting as for the

21    15th, and I was never present where anything at all was decided about

22    anything.

23       Q.   All right.  Just one final question.

24            MR. SAYERS:  We've previously distributed exhibits.  There are

25    three short exhibits, Your Honour.  These are all on our rejoinder list.

Page 27957

 1    I'd just like to --

 2            MR. NICE:  I fail to see how any of these fit within the

 3    apparently narrow scope of rejoinder.  They don't accord with the summary

 4    served of anticipated rejoinder evidence of this witness, and therefore I

 5    am perplexed.

 6            MR. SAYERS:  Mr. President, I have no questions to ask about these

 7    other than:  Is Mr. Maric's original signature on these documents?  They

 8    speak for themselves, and they are all in our rejoinder list.  And we

 9    announced yesterday that we were going to have Mr. Maric authenticate

10    three documents and here they are.

11            JUDGE MAY:  They are outside the scope of rejoinder.

12            MR. SAYERS:  Mr. President, I have no questions about these.  If

13    there's any contest as to authenticity, I'd like to know about it.  If

14    there's no contest about authenticity, then we can move on to the next

15    witness.

16                          [Trial Chamber confers]

17            JUDGE MAY:  That goes beyond the scope of rejoinder, strictly he

18    can identify his signature on the documents.

19            MR. SAYERS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20       Q.   Mr. Maric, we've put together a little package of three exhibits.

21    Could you just confirm for all of us that your signature or an accurate

22    copy of your signature appears on each of these three documents.

23       A.   Yes, on the first one.  Likewise on this report.  Likewise on this

24    last document.  These are my signatures.

25            MR. SAYERS:  Thank you, sir.

Page 27958

 1            Mr. President, no further questions.  If we could just have

 2    exhibit numbers assigned.

 3            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, can I simply make this point?

 4            The Court has said that he may identify his signature on the

 5    documents.  The admission of these documents is not -- or the question of

 6    the admissibility of these documents isn't changed by his identifying the

 7    signature.  They would surely fall for consideration just as the other

 8    rejoinder documents.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  But really, Mr. Nice, what's the objection to these?

10            MR. NICE:  Burdening the Court.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Well, that's true.  But apart from that.

12                          [Trial Chamber confers]

13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  We'll admit these three.  May we have numbers,

14    please.

15            THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D355/1.

16            MR. MIKULICIC:  I have no questions, Your Honour.

17                          Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

18       Q.   Mr. Maric, when you gave evidence on the last occasion, you didn't

19    cover the night of the 15th/16th of April, did you?

20       A.   On the 15th, that is, I said about the 15th that it was then that

21    the attack was launched on the territory of Busovaca from the direction of

22    Zenica via Kuber.  That was the testimony I gave.

23       Q.   Have you read your testimony in full preparation for coming to

24    give evidence today, Mr. Maric?

25       A.   I remember my testimony.  I was a live witness to all the events

Page 27959

 1    in my municipality, and they are all imprinted on my memory.

 2       Q.   Mr. Maric, the question again:  Did you reread your testimony

 3    before coming to give evidence today, please?

 4       A.   I did not see the transcript, the last one.

 5       Q.   Let's now go to this evening, the 15th of April.  What were you

 6    doing?

 7       A.   On the 15th of April, Your Honours, on the 15th of April, I was at

 8    home in Busovaca or, rather, I was a refugee.

 9       Q.   Whereabouts were you?  Which house were you in, please?

10       A.   I was in Ravno where I had taken refuge.

11       Q.   Alone or with anyone else?

12       A.   With my family.

13       Q.   And you were, at the time, president of the local government.

14       A.   It is true that I was the representative of the HVO.  But on the

15    15th, I was at home with my wife and my children.

16       Q.   I want to ask you some questions about your relationships with

17    presidents of the other municipalities.

18            MR. SAYERS:  Objection, Your Honour.  Beyond the scope of our

19    direct examination.

20            MR. NICE:  This is all going to go to background, in one sense.

21    It's also the subject of a document about which I would wish to

22    cross-examine this witness as I forecast yesterday, and it goes to his

23    credibility.

24                          [Trial Chamber confers]

25            JUDGE MAY:  Well, we will allow you to cross-examine but,

Page 27960

 1    Mr. Nice, there will be a strict limitation on it.  It's not to be a

 2    general licence, of course.  In particular, we shall restrict you to the

 3    15th.

 4            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, I indicated that I would wish to

 5    cross-examine the witness on the document which, of course, you are

 6    aware.  I would like to put that document to him and seek his comments on

 7    it.

 8            JUDGE MAY:  Let us have the document.

 9            MR. NICE:  It's the four presidents' documents which you may be

10    familiar with.

11            JUDGE MAY:  We may be familiar with it, but I don't have it at the

12    moment.

13            MR. NICE:  Just for the moment, just for the Judges, I think Their

14    Honours would like to be reminded of it.

15            MR. SAYERS:  If I may, Mr. President, this document has already

16    been ruled on and it's already been excluded.

17            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  But there is another application, in the

18    circumstances, to admit it.

19            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, the point is, of course, that this

20    document was ruled upon before there was even any intimation that this

21    witness was going to be called, and indeed one might have expected in the

22    circumstances of openness that one might have hoped for that in objecting

23    to the production of this document, given the history of the suggestion

24    that the Chamber might, itself, call this witness, one might have expected

25    it would be the subject of notice at the time of argument that he was to

Page 27961

 1    be called.  It's page 7.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  The relevant part is going to be page 7.

 3            MR. NICE:  Page 7 and then the general conclusions at pages 10,

 4    11, and 12.

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Are you asking for the whole document to go in?

 6            MR. NICE:  No.  No.  Principally page 7 and his comments on that,

 7    please.  Dependent on his comments, we might look at some or all of 10 and

 8    onwards.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Where is the reference to the 15th of April, please?

10            MR. NICE:  This is not a reference to the 15th of April.  It's a

11    reference to the whole history.  What's more important, it's a record of

12    the antagonism between this witness and Kordic, and I'm going to say that

13    that is extremely important in the setting of the issue about the meeting

14    on the night of the 15th.

15            The whole setting of this evidence on both sides about this

16    meeting, which cannot be examined in complete isolation is, in our

17    submission, affected by and reflected from the antipathy between the

18    presidents and Kordic.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Is there a reference in the document to the meeting on

20    the 15th of April?

21            MR. NICE:  Yes, but not in this particular witness' account.

22            JUDGE MAY:  No.  But where is the reference in the document?

23            MR. NICE:  Page 4, Your Honour, and one can see that halfway

24    down.  It goes on, if you look down, to make reference to the absence from

25    a particular meeting of the presidents and then makes further reference to

Page 27962













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Page 27963

 1    the role of certain authorities later that night.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  What it says is that there was a session of the

 3    Central Bosnia Operative Zone.

 4            MR. NICE:  Correct.

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Attended by commanders of several HVO units.

 6            MR. NICE:  Correct.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  A decision was made to start the attack.  A meeting

 8    was not attended by the presidents of the municipal HVOs.

 9            MR. NICE:  That particular meeting was not.

10            JUDGE MAY:  Or the head of the defence department.

11            MR. NICE:  But then it goes on to say --

12            JUDGE MAY:  Leading people learned about this meeting and then

13    went to Kordic's house.

14            MR. NICE:  Yes.  But if I may say so, it's all without prejudice

15    to the earlier meeting that I'm going to be raising with this particular

16    witness.  So it's part of the series of witnesses.  It's part of the

17    series of meetings, but not this particular one.

18            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Well, we have the evidence in mind about the

19    meetings.

20            MR. NICE:  Yes.

21            JUDGE MAY:  This account is of a rather different nature because

22    it only refers to one meeting, and then another meeting later on in

23    Busovaca which wasn't the evidence which we've heard.

24            MR. NICE:  Correct.  But, Your Honour, that is all that underlies

25    my principal concern which is to put pages 7 and 8 which, of course, go

Page 27964

 1    very substantially to the background issue that I referred to and also, of

 2    course, to the credit of the witness in light of evidence he's given

 3    already on this occasion and on the last.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  Is there anything to attack his credibility on that --

 5    on this particular meeting which he's given evidence about?

 6            MR. NICE:  Not specifically from this document but, Your Honour,

 7    it would be quite unrealistic in my respectful submission to think one

 8    would be able to find necessarily on any particular piece of evidence

 9    something that isolates issues of credibility as to that particular piece

10    of evidence.  Credibility has to be wider than that and always is.

11    Because otherwise, it simply becomes a issue of "You did.  I didn't."

12            MR. SAYERS:  With great respect, Mr. President --

13            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment, please.  The background to pages 7 and

14    8, this is an information on the situation in Vitez military district

15    obtained from discussions with the presidents of the HVO governments of

16    four municipalities and this is said to be the report on Busovaca; is that

17    right?

18            MR. NICE:  Correct.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Obtained from this witness, as alleged.

20            MR. NICE:  Correct.

21            JUDGE MAY:  But it's a general report about Busovaca.

22            MR. NICE:  Correct, and about the attitude of this witness to

23    Kordic and vice versa, and indeed about --

24            JUDGE MAY:  At the moment we are on a narrow issue of evidence,

25    which is the meeting on the 15th of April.  Of course we have to make a

Page 27965

 1    decision about the credibility of the witness, I understand that, but how

 2    are these particular passages on 7 and 8, which are setting out this

 3    history of differences there may have been between the witness and Kordic,

 4    going to help us about the meeting on the 15th of April?

 5            MR. NICE:  Because they are entirely contrary to the rest of the

 6    evidence that this man gave on the last occasion, and therefore they go

 7    fundamentally to his credibility.  Now, I have other material for his --

 8    since the occasion when he gave evidence on the last occasion about his

 9    credibility, of course I do, but I didn't have this document at that

10    time.  This is a fundamental -- a fundamentally helpful document for the

11    Chamber to consider.

12            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  The objection may be made that it is opening up

13    a much wider area of consideration of evidence than should be opened up at

14    this stage of the rejoinder, and effectively getting in new evidence.

15            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, we have been transparent throughout about

16    the desire to put this matter to this witness.  It's why we took the

17    particular steps we did to immunise him or to isolate him from knowledge

18    of our possession of the documents so that the Chamber might recall him,

19    and we raised that both before service of the document and inter partes at

20    a later stage.

21            I should also draw to Your Honours' attention, as I would wish to

22    draw to the witness' attention, that if one looks at page 8 - I think it's

23    page 8 - yes, you'll see an account of the checkpoint incident.  The

24    Chamber will probably not recall from the massive evidence its heard, but

25    this witness did, in fact, go some way towards acknowledging some of that,

Page 27966

 1    because this was a witness who -- it may have been in Your Honour's

 2    particular absence, but this was a witness who acknowledged that

 3    everything that happened on the 20th was triggered by and consequential

 4    upon the incident involving Kostroman and/or Kordic at the checkpoint.  It

 5    was a reaction to that and therefore, to some degree, as I would seek to

 6    establish, this document does reflect his evidence, although it reflects

 7    it in a far stronger and, no doubt I would be suggesting, a more accurate

 8    way than he told us.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  And it's supposed to represent a report of what he had

10    said.

11            MR. NICE:  Indeed.

12            JUDGE MAY:  It appears to be his report.

13            MR. NICE:  Yes.

14            JUDGE MAY:  Well, the issue, really, is whether at this stage

15    you're entitled to cross-examine on this document.

16                          [Trial Chamber confers]

17            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, could you give the

18    original of the document to the witness, to Mr. Maric, to see if he has

19    already heard about this document or not.

20            MR. NICE:  Certainly.  Will Your Honour just give me one moment.

21            Your Honour, by oversight, the B/C/S has not been brought in, my

22    mistake, but in fact I can deal with the question in another way, I'm

23    quite sure.

24       Q.   Mr. Maric, when were you first asked to come and give evidence

25    here for a second occasion?  How long ago were you notified?

Page 27967

 1       A.   A week ago.

 2       Q.   At that stage, you were notified that you might be required to

 3    deal with a document that purported to be a report of four presidents of

 4    four municipalities; correct?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   When were you seen by lawyers in relation to coming to give

 7    evidence on this second occasion?

 8       A.   Well, I said that a week ago I was called up again.  I was told

 9    that I was supposed to come and testify once again.

10       Q.   But before that, you'd been approached by lawyers in relation to

11    this particular document, hadn't you, the document of the four presidents,

12    as we are calling it for shorthand purposes?

13       A.   Your Honours, I said that a week ago I received notification that

14    I was supposed to come here and testify again.  Nobody mentioned any

15    document to me, nor do I know about one.

16            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, I believe that I received a letter to the

17    effect that he was going to deal with both topics.  That was before the

18    ruling was made.  I'll try and find that letter.

19            But here's the original.  The B/C/S was attached to the version

20    that Your Honours had, and I'd like perhaps confirmation, if my memory is

21    correct, that the original intimation was that this witness was going to

22    come and be able to deal with this document.

23            Meanwhile, may the original document go on the ELMO for him,

24    please.  Thank you.

25       Q.   Will you look, please, at that document in the original, or you

Page 27968

 1    can handle it if you wish.  Have you been shown that document?

 2       A.   I have never seen this document, ever.  This is the first time I

 3    see it.

 4       Q.   Are you saying you've never had this discussed with you by the

 5    lawyers representing Kordic?

 6       A.   Your Honours, I've said that a week ago I received notification

 7    that I would have to come here and testify again.  But I have not been

 8    familiarised with any documents.

 9            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, that's probably as far as I can take it at

10    the moment, unless I find the other letter.

11            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric, did you take part in

12    writing a report or did you write a report about the political and

13    military situation in Central Bosnia alongside other municipal presidents,

14    that is, municipal presidents of Travnik, Novi Travnik, and Vitez, in

15    1993?  Could you tell us if you participated in the compilation of a

16    report with other municipal presidents in Central Bosnia in February 1993;

17    yes or no?

18       A.   In February, I never wrote something, nor do I know about anything

19    like this.

20            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Did you participate -- forget the

21    date.  Did you participate in the compilation of a report about Central

22    Bosnia with other municipal presidents in Central Bosnia?

23       A.   No.

24            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You never participated in writing

25    a report?

Page 27969

 1       A.   I did not.

 2            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And you never heard that anyone

 3    else wrote a report, four municipal presidents, about the situation in

 4    Central Bosnia?

 5       A.   I did not because I did not participate in that.  I don't know if

 6    anybody else wrote about us or about anyone else.

 7            MR. NICE:  May I ask one supplementary question to this effect if

 8    the Chamber looks at page 12 of the English version and the initials

 9    there.

10       Q.   It's right, isn't it, Mr. Maric, that you had dealings with

11    representatives of one of the secret services represented by three men,

12    Boris Adzic, Bruno Saric, and Dragan Voloder and you spoke to them about

13    events in your municipality?

14       A.   Your Honours, I never talk to them.  I don't know these people at

15    all.

16                          [Trial Chamber confers]

17            JUDGE MAY:  Normally, the rules provide for cross-examination upon

18    issues of credibility and it would have been open earlier in the trial

19    when the witness first gave evidence for him to be cross-examined upon

20    this document.  However, given the stage of the trial which we are at, and

21    given the very narrow compass of his evidence, we could not think it right

22    to allow a more wide-ranging cross-examination which may relate to

23    credibility.

24            He has given evidence about events on the 15th of April.  This

25    document relates to or is a report dated the 8th of February and relates

Page 27970

 1    to events in January.  It would open up new issues and we don't think it

 2    right to allow it at this stage.  We will return the document.

 3            MR. NICE:  As Your Honour pleases.

 4       Q.   Mr. Maric, just help me further, please.  Your address in Ravno is

 5    how far from Busovaca?

 6       A.   From Busovaca, four and a half kilometres.

 7       Q.   And at the time in April, how did you communicate with other

 8    people in the government; did you have a telephone?

 9       A.   Well, at that time, all telephones were disconnected.

10       Q.   Then how did you communicate with other members of the government,

11    please?  You were the president.

12       A.   Well, I was president.  In the morning I went to work, and then I

13    would return.

14       Q.   If you were required after hours by any member of your government,

15    what happened?  Was there a messenger to came to collect you?

16       A.   He would come to see me personally at home, and then we would

17    talk.

18       Q.   Who would come?

19       A.   A member of government.  Then I had these members of my

20    government, Mr. Grubesic, Mr. Pezo.

21       Q.   On the 15th, did anybody come and see you in the evening?

22       A.   I said that I was at home with my wife and family -- with my wife

23    and children, on the evening of the 15th.

24       Q.   Yes.  Now, can you answer the question?  Did anybody else from the

25    government, anybody come and see you?

Page 27971

 1       A.   No.  No one came to see me at my house that evening.

 2       Q.   So help me, please.  Was the 15th an entirely ordinary evening at

 3    the end of which you went to bed and to sleep in an ordinary way?

 4       A.   Well, that evening, I said that there was an attack on Busovaca

 5    from the Muslim side, from Kuber.  I was at home at the time because

 6    shells were falling.

 7       Q.   What time in the evening, please, Mr. Maric, are you going to tell

 8    us about?  What time?

 9       A.   Well, I'm telling you the attack started around 3.30, about 3.30

10    p.m. and, at that time, I was at home.  I was in the house all the time.

11       Q.   Busovaca is being attacked at about 3.30 in the afternoon on the

12    15th; is that your recollection?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Can you help us with where that's recorded in any way?  Are there

15    any documents about that anywhere?

16       A.   Sir, last time in my report, I said how the attacks on Busovaca

17    took place, and I said that very precisely in my statement and I remain

18    true to my statement.

19       Q.   So although you were at home, Busovaca was under attack; is that

20    right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Did you have any contact with the military people who were dealing

23    with things in your municipality, please?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Why not?  If there was an attack, as the president of the

Page 27972

 1    government, wouldn't it have been an appropriate thing to do to make

 2    contact with the military leaders?

 3       A.   I was involved in civilian affairs for the municipality of

 4    Busovaca.

 5       Q.   I see.  Let's just hear about the -- yes, but that doesn't mean to

 6    say you don't speak to the military people.  If an attack is taking place,

 7    half past 3.00 in the afternoon is your account, you're still at your

 8    government office, shells falling.  Tell us, please, what did you do?

 9       A.   At 3.00 I went home, because our working hours were until 3.00,

10    1500 hours.

11       Q.   So this little small town is under shelling, you're the president,

12    but at 5.00, off you went home; is that the position?

13            JUDGE MAY:  3.00.

14            MR. NICE:  3.00.  I'm so sorry.

15       A.   I said when I went home, I went home at 1500 and the shelling

16    began later at half past 3.00.

17       Q.   Very well.  And what, you just stayed at home while the town was

18    being shelled and you didn't communicate with anyone at all; is that

19    right?

20       A.   Correct.  I was at home throughout.  I communicated with no one.

21       Q.   Well, that's the 15th.  Did you manage to get some sleep that

22    night?

23       A.   I slept.  Of course I slept, but not as a normal man would sleep

24    because there was war.

25       Q.   And what happened the following morning; anything wake you up

Page 27973













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Page 27974

 1    specially?

 2       A.   Shells were falling.  There was fighting throughout the night.

 3       Q.   At 12.00, 1.00, 2.00, and 3.00, there was fighting going on, was

 4    there?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And was this artillery shells being fired from one community to

 7    the next?

 8       A.   I heard detonations, yes.

 9       Q.   So that you heard them.  Where were they coming from:  Vitez,

10    Ahmici, whereabouts?

11       A.   Your Honours, I said that Muslim forces had attacked the area

12    north-west, north-east in the municipality of Busovaca, and that is the

13    territory of Kuber.

14       Q.   That's sort of over in the general direction of Ahmici as well,

15    isn't it?

16       A.   Ahmici are on the border, on the boundary of the municipality of

17    Busovaca.  That is correct.

18       Q.   You stayed at home, didn't see anything of any press conference

19    that afternoon, did you?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Weren't aware of any press conference that afternoon involving any

22    of the political or military leaders of your community, were you?

23       A.   Your Honours, I said that at 1500, I left the building of the

24    municipal government and went home.

25       Q.   Were you aware of any mobilisation orders that afternoon?

Page 27975

 1       A.   The mobilisation was for a long time on.  It was in force since

 2    the 25th of January, and it was never called off.

 3       Q.   Were you aware of any curfew orders on the 15th by anyone?

 4       A.   Curfew had been introduced a long time before that.

 5       Q.   Well, now, what contact did you have on a regular basis with the

 6    military leaders of your community, please?  You were the president.  What

 7    contact did you have with the military leaders, please?

 8       A.   With the military leaders, I had contact when support was needed,

 9    meaning help to the civilian population or, rather, supplies for the

10    military because we were completely surrounded.

11       Q.   Was that on a daily basis or a weekly basis, every hour; what was

12    it?

13       A.   No.  When the need arose.

14       Q.   Who was the military leader at the time, please, Mr. Maric, in

15    your community?

16       A.   The brigade commander was Mr. Dusko Grubesic.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Well, now, can you help me with this:  You say you

18    didn't go to Vitez at all on the day of the 15th, don't you?

19       A.   I have said, Your Honours, that I never went to Vitez on the 15th,

20    that I was in my office, went home at 3.00, and spent all that time at

21    home with my wife and children.

22       Q.   Are you telling us that you've never heard of any such meeting

23    happening in Vitez at any time?

24       A.   This is the first time that I hear about this from you, sir.

25       Q.   Well, you know and accept, don't you, that there was a terrible

Page 27976

 1    event in Ahmici committed by the HVO on this very night, don't you?

 2       A.   Your Honours, I testified about Ahmici.  Last time, I testified

 3    before the Court, and any crime that is committed by anyone --

 4            JUDGE MAY:  There's no need to go on.  You were simply asked a

 5    question.  The answer is yes or no.

 6            MR. NICE:

 7       Q.   There was a terrible event in Ahmici committed by the HVO on that

 8    very night, wasn't there?

 9       A.   A crime did happen.

10       Q.   Thank you.  As one of the local leaders, did you not inquire into

11    the circumstances by which this crime came to be committed, please?

12            MR. SAYERS:  Your Honour, I must interject at this point.  We went

13    over all of this at great length with Mr. Maric when he was here the first

14    time, and this is considerably beyond the scope of the April the 15th

15    meeting which we brought him here to testimony about, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, I agree.

17            Yes, anything else about the 15th?

18            MR. NICE:  Yes, I want to focus on the 15th.

19       Q.   You see, I must suggest to you this: that there was, and still is,

20    in Vitez, plenty of discussion about the meeting or meetings on the 15th,

21    Mr. Maric, and you know it.

22       A.   Your Honours, I said that that day I was in my municipality

23    because I was the mayor of my municipality.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Maric, my question was broader than that and it

25    came from what you said in your evidence to Mr. Sayers.  I'm suggesting to

Page 27977

 1    you that at the time, since, and even to this day, there is regular

 2    reference to, knowledge of, the meetings that occurred on the 15th.  Those

 3    meetings are talked about, Mr. Maric; yes or no?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   And that the meetings were first in Vitez, and later they were in

 6    your town at Kordic's -- outside your town at Kordic's house, and you know

 7    about these.

 8       A.   I don't know it, Your Honours, because I wasn't present, I wasn't

 9    informed.  This is the first time I hear about it from Mr. Nice.

10       Q.   Very well.  I shall ask you one more question, I think, and then

11    that is all I'm going to trouble you with.

12            From your knowledge of events at the time, can you explain how

13    orders, in the middle of the night, got from Vitez to the military

14    authorities in Busovaca?

15       A.   Your Honours, I am not a military man.  I fought -- I was a

16    civilian.  I was the president of the civilian government and I fought to

17    provide the security for the civilian population and to satisfy the needs

18    as they were at that moment.  And about the military, I'm not competent

19    about that, nor did I have any part in it.

20       Q.   Mr. Maric, let me make it quite clear to you.  My suggestion is

21    that you and various others met in Vitez with Kordic and at that stage you

22    and those others knew perfectly well that there was going to be an attack

23    later that night.

24       A.   Your Honours, I repeat over and over again:  That day I was not in

25    Vitez.  I did not hear anything being said about any plans.  By my honour,

Page 27978

 1    I came here to testify honourably and to speak about what happened, what I

 2    know happened.

 3       Q.   Mr. Maric, you recognise that by your presence at that meeting -

 4    this I must suggest to you - that your presence at that meeting revealed

 5    in various ways of which you must be aware, you realise that you find

 6    yourself in an acutely difficult position because you went along with what

 7    was going to happen.

 8       A.   Your Honours, I was not present and I did not participate in

 9    anything.

10       Q.   And in the prevailing atmosphere in Vitez, Busovaca, and

11    thereabouts to this day, those on the Croat side, like you, I am

12    suggesting, have to turn up and say that which they know to be quite

13    untrue in support of Mr. Kordic, and that's what you're doing here today.

14       A.   Your Honours, I said that I was not at that meeting.  I have no

15    idea about all these events.

16            MR. NICE:  If Your Honour will just give me one minute.  I have

17    nothing else to ask this witness.

18            MR. SAYERS:  No questions, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  The witness is released.  You're free to go,

20    Mr. Maric.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22                          [The witness withdrew]

23            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, the next witness.

24            MR. SAYERS:  Jozo Sekic, Mr. President.

25            JUDGE MAY:  While the witness is being fetched, it may be that I

Page 27979

 1    can give the timetable for closing submissions next week.

 2            Thursday, the 14th of December, we'll begin at 9.00, provided

 3    that's all right with the Registry.  From 9.00 to 10.30, we'll hear the

 4    Prosecution.  We'll take the usual break.  From 11.00 to 12.30, the

 5    Prosecution.  We'll take the lunch break from 12.30 to 2.00.  From 2.00 to

 6    3.00, we'll hear the Prosecution.  That gives them four hours in all.

 7    We'll take a break between 3.00 and 3.15.  And then 3.15 to 3.45, we'll

 8    hear the Kordic Defence for the beginning of their submissions.

 9            I'll break off now because the witness is here.

10                          [The witness entered court]

11            JUDGE MAY:  This is a new witness, isn't it?

12            MR. SAYERS:  Yes, Mr. President.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Let the witness take the declaration.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                          WITNESS:  JOZO SEKIC

17                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

18            JUDGE MAY:  If you'd like to take a seat.

19            Yes, Mr. Sayers.

20            MR. SAYERS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                          Examined by Mr. Sayers:

22       Q.   Good morning, sir.  Would you please tell your full name to the

23    Court.

24       A.   Good morning.  My name is Jozo, and my last name is Sekic.

25       Q.   Mr. Sekic, do I understand it correctly that you were the

Page 27980

 1    President of the HVO government of Novi Travnik municipality from July of

 2    1992 until August of 1993?

 3       A.   It is very correct.

 4       Q.   Do you still work for the Chamber of Economy of Herceg-Bosna, a

 5    nongovernmental organisation?

 6       A.   At the moment, I work for the Chamber of Commerce of the

 7    Federation or, rather, the cantonal Chamber of Commerce, the district

 8    Chamber of Commerce in Central Bosnia.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Please don't take offence at this question, sir, but

10    do you have any criminal record?

11       A.   No, never.

12       Q.   Just one point I want to cover with you today, Mr. Sekic, and only

13    one.  A claim has been made in this case last week by a witness who says

14    that he saw you or may have seen you at a meeting of political leaders and

15    military leaders held at the headquarters of the Central Bosnia Operative

16    Zone, the Hotel Vitez, on April the 15th, 1993.

17            Now, did you attend any meeting on April the 15th with Colonel

18    Blaskic or other military leaders in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone

19    headquarters, sir?

20       A.   Your Honours, no memory associates me with any meeting on the

21    above-mentioned date; that is, I was not present at any meeting on the

22    above-mentioned date.  Moreover, I have never heard about such a meeting

23    ever taking place.

24       Q.   To your knowledge, Mr. Sekic, was anybody else from the HVO

25    government in Novi Travnik present in the Hotel Vitez on that day, April

Page 27981

 1    the 15th, 1993?

 2       A.   To my knowledge, I am sure and I am convinced that nobody was at a

 3    possible, potential meeting.

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            MR. SAYERS:  No further questions.

 6            MR. MIKULICIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

 7                          Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

 8       Q.   Mr. Sekic, help me with this, please:  At the material time, your

 9    role in Novi Travnik was President of the municipality, or what was it?

10       A.   At that time I was the President of the HVO, that is, the civilian

11    wing of the government.

12       Q.   Yes.  Now, nasty things happened, very nasty things happened in

13    your area in the course of 1993.  What happened in April, was that, in

14    some way, worse than what happened on other days, or was it all much of a

15    muchness to you?  You see, I want to know why it is that you're able to

16    remember this particular day, first.

17       A.   Well, this specific date, that is, I learnt about a possible

18    meeting -- I learnt on my way here to The Hague about the date of the

19    alleged meeting that took place.

20       Q.   It was my mistake for not making it clear.  You're able to tell us

21    where you were and where you weren't on the 15th of April.  But was the

22    15th of April just like any other day?  The 15th/16th of April, was it

23    just like any other day in the year 1993, or was there something special

24    about it for you?  Perhaps because it was a specially awful day or because

25    something unusual happened.  Tell us.

Page 27982

 1       A.   Well, to me, it was like most days in 1993, nothing special.  And,

 2    really, nothing -- I do not -- nothing brings memory back of that day.

 3    Nothing associates me with it.  Nothing special was there to be imprinted

 4    on my mind.

 5       Q.   And what about the 16th of April, because sometimes you can

 6    remember events not because of a particular day itself but because of the

 7    day before or the following day.  Anything on the 16th of April that is

 8    particularly memorable, however awful?

 9       A.   Well, about the 16th of April, I remember -- I remember that the

10    information arrived, but to be quite honest, I learned it in the afternoon

11    hours that in the municipality of Vitez, there had been fighting.

12       Q.   It's the start, really, isn't it?  The 16th of April is the start

13    of the conflict proper between the HVO and the Muslims.  Would that be

14    right?

15       A.   Your Honours, even before -- during the earlier period, there were

16    some incidents and -- that is it is very hard to say the beginning.

17       Q.   But were you aware that Ahmici, the massacre at Ahmici occurred in

18    the early hours of the morning of the 16th?

19       A.   Sir, it seems to me as far as I can remember, I learned about it

20    in the afternoon because I think that it was only on the 18th that I

21    learned about the dimensions of that incident, of that conflict about what

22    happened.

23       Q.   And so the 16th of April has always been an important day in the

24    life of Central Bosnia, hasn't it, the 16th of April of 1993?

25       A.   Well, Your Honours, that is, of course, an ugly day in Central

Page 27983

 1    Bosnia, an ugly day in Central Bosnia.

 2       Q.   And when you first became involved with lawyers for Kordic in this

 3    case, you knew that this Trial Chamber was inquiring, amongst other

 4    things, into the events at Ahmici, didn't you?

 5       A.   Among other things, I learned, and it was known not only from

 6    lawyers but also the media, the mass media also reported about that.

 7       Q.   Now, when you first got in dealing with lawyers for the defendant

 8    Kordic, you provided an affidavit, didn't you?

 9       A.   I did.

10       Q.   You went with your statement or affidavit to a local judge and it

11    was all explained to you how important it was to get things right, and you

12    testified or swore to the truth of your statement, didn't you?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Were you subsequently informed that the Prosecution had wanted you

15    to attend to give evidence live?  Were you ever told that?

16       A.   Your Honours, I was told that the affidavit was enough, that

17    within the framework of the international legal assistance extended by the

18    judiciary, that is, that it had been agreed upon and that it sufficed.

19       Q.   That's not exactly an answer to my question.  I will just ask you

20    once more:  Were you told that the Prosecution wanted you to attend?

21       A.   Your Honours, I was not told that, but a month ago, I was told

22    that I should appear.

23       Q.   Now, as between you and the man Zlatan Civcija, the chief of

24    police, you, as the president of municipality, would of course have a

25    wider more detailed knowledge of events in your municipality; correct?

Page 27984













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Page 27985

 1       A.   Well, if you mean, have more extensive knowledge about it, no, I

 2    didn't.  May I explain that?

 3       Q.   Of course.

 4       A.   Your Honours, just at what period of time do you have in mind?

 5       Q.   Well, the time when you were president of your community which, of

 6    course, included this dark day, the 16th of April.

 7       A.   So at that time, I was the president of the civilian HVO

 8    government and Mr. Civcija was the commander, the chief of the civilian

 9    police.  That is so.  That is, he was the chief of police and he was doing

10    his job in agreement with the job of the police administration.

11       Q.   I'll come back to it.  As president, you would know what was going

12    on in your community.  You have been brought here not only to say that you

13    didn't go to a meeting on the 15th but nobody else did.  Not a very large

14    town, Novi Travnik, substantial, but not huge.  You would know what was

15    going on in Novi Travnik generally, wouldn't you?

16       A.   Your Honours, in such a confused and complex time, it was

17    difficult to know everything that was going on in the territory.  There

18    was no system in existence, a functioning system.  Those were times when

19    many things got intertwined and when, I mean, with respect to order and

20    peace, the military police played a bigger role and at times, in Travnik,

21    perhaps exclusively.

22       Q.   I only have a couple more questions on this topic and then a few

23    more and then I shall be done.  And if the Chamber is in a position to sit

24    beyond the normal break time, if the interpreters are, I can probably

25    accommodate all I have to say within five or ten minutes.

Page 27986

 1            You were replaced as president by a man called Vidak, weren't

 2    you?

 3       A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 4       Q.   But not until August of 1993.

 5       A.   Correct.

 6       Q.   So for all the important period of April, the dark days of April,

 7    you were the president.

 8       A.   Correct.

 9       Q.   Now, why, again, please, when you went to your local judge and

10    swore your affidavit, did you choose to say that you were only president

11    until March of 1993?

12       A.   Your Honours, I think that it was just a technical error in

13    typing, in typing, I assume.  Because it is quite clear to me that then, I

14    mean, if I was until March, then I wouldn't be against myself.  I wouldn't

15    be going into that nonsense.

16       Q.   This is paragraph 3 of his statement and it sets out in the

17    English version in July of 1992, I became president of the Croat Defence

18    Council and I remained in that position until March of 1993 and, according

19    to the record of your examination by the judge, you were warned of your

20    obligations to tell the truth, you were told the consequences of not

21    telling the truth, and you confirmed everything in your affidavit as

22    true.  Now how can you have made such a fundamental error about your own

23    employment, please?

24       A.   Your Honours, once again, I mean I would like to mention a purely

25    technical oversight, 100 per cent sure, probably when it was being typed

Page 27987

 1    out.  Since -- I mean when I read it, when I read everything that was

 2    typed out, we had to change some things because there had been some typos

 3    so probably later when these things were changed, this was carried out.  I

 4    mean a typographical error was carried out.  So I read this, once again,

 5    quickly, and I did not take note of this date or, rather, this month.

 6       Q.   Now, the man Vidak, was it he who drew to your attention that your

 7    term of office ended in August and not in March?

 8       A.   Your Honours, no way.  No.  No.  Vidak?  No, I did not even

 9    communicate with him from the time I gave my statement.

10       Q.   Have you spoken to him in the last few months?

11       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I did not talk to him at all, so he could not have

12    drawn my attention to anything.

13       Q.   You see from a statement that we took from him, we discovered, a

14    statement served on the Defence, that you became --

15            MR. SAYERS:  If I may, Your Honour, this is covering the same

16    territory that we did yesterday, confronting a witness with a statement of

17    another person, especially when it's being excluded.

18            JUDGE MAY:  A matter can be put without reference to the

19    statement.

20            MR. NICE:

21       Q.   Did you discover, as a result of communications between Vidak and

22    the Prosecutor here, a Prosecutor was going to know that what you had said

23    about ending your term of office in March was untrue?

24       A.   Your Honours, I did not quite understand this thing about Vidak.

25    I'll try to answer, perhaps I'm not going to be very accurate, but as for

Page 27988

 1    Vidak, I don't even know about his statement, nor do I know about the

 2    contents of his statement.

 3       Q.   Yes.

 4            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, I'm not, with this witness, going to seek

 5    to cover the matters that I raised with the last witness or that same

 6    document.  I'm not going to seek with this witness to explore the many

 7    matters we would have explored had he come instead of his affidavit.  I'm

 8    going to confine myself to the 15th, to the matters that relate to that

 9    and I have just a couple more questions but they do relate to that.

10       Q.   Two things about you, please.  You were given your job, really, by

11    Kordic, weren't you?  He appointed people in Novi Travnik in the spring of

12    1992 and that's exactly how you got your job.

13       A.   Your Honours, I have a different view with regard to that.  I was

14    a legally and legitimately elected president of the municipal assembly in

15    1990.  That is to say that when the parliament ceased to function in the

16    Federation, that reflected itself at municipal levels too.  Well,

17    municipal staffs were established of the HVO, actually at the level of

18    Herceg-Bosna or, rather, the BH.  There were two armies that were

19    constituted in a way, and in this way, local self-government was blocked.

20    Maybe I'm --

21       Q.   We've had evidence that Kordic appointed people to the posts in

22    Novi Travnik in the spring of 1992.  Question one:  Do you accept that he

23    did, indeed, appoint some people to their posts at that time?

24       A.   Your Honours, Mr. Dario Kordic was vice-president of the Croat

25    Community of Herceg-Bosna.  That is a political post.  There is no doubt

Page 27989

 1    that through this political post, he influenced personnel matters.  So

 2    there is no dilemma about that.  He had an appropriate influence on

 3    personnel matters, and this peaked in terms of Mr. Mate Boban.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Nice, it is getting on.  It may be better if we

 5    adjourn now and have the break.

 6            MR. NICE:  I shan't be long.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  We're going to break now until the usual time.

 8            Mr. Sekic, don't speak to anybody about your evidence until it's

 9    over and don't speak to anybody during the break.

10                          --- Recess taken at 11.07 a.m.

11                          --- On resuming at 11.43 a.m.

12            MR. NICE:

13       Q.   I've dealt with the fact that you got your job from Mr. Kordic, as

14    I suggest to you, and the second reason you're here is this:  Throughout

15    the war, you were involved with a man called Marelja; correct?

16            MR. SAYERS:  Objection, Your Honour.  This is way beyond the scope

17    of the narrow issue that this witness was brought to testify about.  I see

18    no relevance whatsoever to that question of background matters.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Let's see what the purpose of the question is.

20            MR. NICE:  Can I explain it through the questions, if I may?

21            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

22            MR. NICE:

23       Q.   It's right, isn't it, that you were involved with a man called

24    Marelja.

25       A.   Your Honours, first I shall answer this first question, I mean

Page 27990

 1    about my getting a job from Dario.  It's not -- it's not --

 2            JUDGE MAY:  We've been over this, I think.  You can answer but

 3    very briefly, please.

 4       A.   It's not that I got a job from Mr. Dario.  That's it.  There was a

 5    sort of continuity as far as my political functioning is concerned, and

 6    that's what I wanted to say about that.

 7            Now I'm going to answer this other question of yours.  It relates

 8    to contact -- contact with Mr. Marelja.  I have to tell you the

 9    following:  It was not only contact.  Mr. Marelja was in the civilian

10    authorities of the HVO, that is to say, in the municipality, and he was

11    deputy president.

12            MR. NICE:

13       Q.   I'm concerned with this:  Marelja was trading explosives in and

14    out of your town, selling the products to Croats and Muslims; you were

15    involved in it, as was Kordic, or at least Kordic strongly approved of

16    it.  That's my suggestion.

17            JUDGE MAY:  Credibility.

18            Yes, now, two suggestions were made.  First of all, that you were

19    involved in the selling of explosives.  Were you?

20       A.   Your Honour, absolutely incorrect.  I never took part in actions

21    that would even be similar to something like that, so this is absolutely

22    incorrect.

23            MR. NICE:

24       Q.   I'm going to leave it with this question or with these two

25    questions:  You were the man who dealt with the transport, weren't you?

Page 27991

 1       A.   I beg your pardon?  I didn't understand.  Transport in what

 2    sense?  What kind of transport are you asking me about?

 3       Q.   The transport of explosives to the Republic of Croatia was your

 4    part in all this.

 5       A.   Your Honours, I never saw, let me put it that way, a single gram

 6    of any kind of explosive.

 7       Q.   I see.  Let me move to the third reason why you're here, in my

 8    suggestion to you, to lie on behalf of Mr. Kordic so that there's no doubt

 9    about what I'm suggesting to you, and that is that, although I'm not going

10    to go into it in detail, you were in full support of Kordic's policies in

11    your town of Novi Travnik and you know that as a result of those policies

12    a large number of people died.

13       A.   Your Honours, I was in agreement with the policy, with the policy

14    that had as its objective -- I mean, in moments of fear of a greater Serb,

15    Milosevic aggression, I agreed to have the Croat people protected.  And

16    now to say whose policy this is, I mean, to address it to one person or

17    another, I think that's wrong.  I supported the policy of the Croat

18    Democratic Union.

19            Just one more thing.  It is a fact -- it is a fact that later,

20    unfortunately, there were war conflicts, although I am a profound

21    pacifist.  However, how did this take place?  It reminds me of the

22    question of what is older.

23            JUDGE MAY:  Now, we have only a limited amount of time, Mr. Sekic,

24    and I think you've answered the question.

25            MR. NICE:

Page 27992

 1       Q.   I want to turn now, please, to the meeting itself but with this

 2    opening question:  Presidents of the municipalities did regularly meet;

 3    correct?

 4       A.   Presidents of municipalities, let me put it this way, met from

 5    time to time, but I have to tell you that these were not institutionalised

 6    meetings.  Practice was to have a cup of coffee, things like that.

 7       Q.   I'm going to suggest that they may well have become rather more

 8    institutionalised, and I'm going to refer to one meeting before I come to

 9    the meeting on the 15th between you and other municipality presidents.  It

10    bears on the 15th, and it bears on one of my previous questions to you.

11            On the 8th of March of 1993, you, along with the president of the

12    municipality, Zoran Maric, and president of the municipality, Pero

13    Skopljak, and others visited Tudjman in Zagreb; correct?

14       A.   I remember that that was at the beginning of March, the beginning

15    of March.  And what you said, I mean Pero Skopljak, president of the

16    municipality, he was not president of the municipality at that time.  At

17    that time, the president of the municipality --

18            JUDGE MAY:  It doesn't matter.

19            MR. NICE:

20       Q.   Bearing on what was to happen on the 15th of April, just help me

21    with this:  Were you and all of you at that time forecasting warfare to

22    come and ask Tudjman for his help?

23       A.   Your Honours, I remember -- I mean memories are coming back all

24    the time now.  It seemed very likely that the Vance-Owen Plan would be

25    signed.  To be quite frank with you, throughout my political activity, I

Page 27993

 1    always thought that it would only last another month or two and then it

 2    would all be over.  So after this Vance-Owen Plan was signed, I mean the

 3    Muslim side signed it; however, putting forth the condition of a

 4    particular annex.  We thought that the Serbs would also sign it and we

 5    thought that this would lead to a resolution of a crisis.

 6       Q.   I'm going to cut you short.  And I'm going to suggest these all go

 7    on matters of credit.  Two things from that meeting before I move on.  One

 8    is that there was a specific request at that meeting with Tudjman for

 9    Praljak to be returned to Central Bosnia, and the second is you, and this

10    goes to your credit, made it clear that in Novi Travnik, you were -- you,

11    the HDZ were prepared to use force and resoluteness towards the Muslims.

12    True or false, both of those points, please?

13       A.   Your Honours, I remember that there were talks concerning the

14    subject of the complexity of the situation and jeopardy.  As for this

15    other thing, I think that it was only mentioned -- it was only mentioned

16    that in Novi Travnik the situation was under control, to quite an extent,

17    that it was quite all right, and that there was no jeopardy.  Of course

18    these were our assessments.

19       Q.   Well, I'm suggesting to you that the terms were exactly as I've

20    put them, and I'm now going to move to the night of the 15th.  Are you

21    saying there was no meeting of -- sorry.

22       A.   I don't remember.

23       Q.   Are you saying there was no meeting on the evening of the 15th?

24       A.   Your Honours, as I said at the beginning, I really do not know

25    about any meeting, nor do I remember that one was held.

Page 27994

 1       Q.   Of course for a municipality to issue a curfew order, there would

 2    have to be involvement of, I suppose, the president of the municipality,

 3    wouldn't there?

 4       A.   Well, I guess so.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Would you like, please, to look at a Defence exhibit

 6    in this case, D307/1, tab 224.  Understand please, Mr. Sekic, that this

 7    document has been put in -- can we just see the top of it so we can have

 8    the date and indeed the time.

 9            This is a document that's been put forward by the Defence as being

10    a genuine document.  It comes on the 15th of April at five minutes to 7.00

11    in the evening, and it goes to the commanders of Brigades 1 to 12.  So

12    that incorporates and includes commanders in Novi Travnik; correct?

13       A.   That's the way it should be.

14       Q.   Thank you.  The order reads, or the document reads, "We hereby

15    inform you that the civil authorities in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone

16    have issued the following orders," and it then refers to a curfew.

17            Can you tell us, please, how, in your municipality, there was a

18    representative of the government in a position to authorise this curfew?

19       A.   You mean a representative of the government -- I mean, I didn't

20    understand this.  Was there a representative of the government where?

21       Q.   Government of Novi Travnik.  Let's look at the bottom of the

22    document.  I'll help you.  This document comes from Blaskic.  He says in

23    terms, the civil authorities have issued the following orders.  He's

24    speaking of Central Bosnia, and the document goes to all brigades

25    including those in your town.  Who, from Novi Travnik, agreed that this

Page 27995













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Page 27996

 1    order should be issued, please, you?

 2       A.   Your Honours, I really do not remember this.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  I suggest you remember it perfectly well because you

 4    were at that meeting, although you haven't been identified with precision,

 5    but either you or possibly somebody on your behalf was at that meeting in

 6    Vitez on the evening of the 15th.  This curfew was amongst the things that

 7    were discussed.  Is that possible?

 8       A.   Your Honour, indeed it is 1.000 per cent sure that I did not

 9    attend this meeting.  I do not even know about anyone else having been

10    there.  I really don't know anything about this.  So 1.000 per cent sure I

11    was not at that meeting or did I know about this curfew.

12       Q.   All right, then.  Last opportunity.  How did somebody from Novi

13    Travnik come to authorise a curfew, please, at or by five to 7.00 in the

14    evening?

15       A.   And to this question, Your Honours, it is also very difficult for

16    me to answer.  The communication between the headquarters of Central

17    Bosnia, well, in principle, it must have gone to the commander of the Novi

18    Travnik Brigade and at that time -- well, the military, in a manner of

19    speaking, dominated, in a way, in that walk of life.

20       Q.   I see.  Are you telling us that whatever it says, whatever the

21    document says about civil authorities, the truth is that it was a sort of

22    military state in Novi Travnik; is that what you're telling us, military

23    rule?

24       A.   Well, one could more or less, yes.  One could, more or less.

25       Q.   Could Kordic issue an order like this on his own?  Did he have

Page 27997

 1    that sort of power?

 2            MR. SAYERS:  Once again, Your Honour, objection as to beyond the

 3    scope of the direct examination.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  Credibility.  Yes.  Let's finish this off.

 5            MR. NICE:  Yes.

 6       Q.   Could Kordic issue such an order on his own?

 7       A.   Your Honours, it is very difficult for me to answer that

 8    question.  My views as to how this should function is that he couldn't do

 9    it on his own.

10       Q.   Then the last question on that, and then one or two questions to

11    follow.  Did you have regular contact with Kordic at meetings during your

12    term of office as president of Novi Travnik?  I suggest --

13       A.   Well, meet, we did meet.  We did.  And that was through that

14    coordinating body which was led by Mr. Valenta, and then Kordic would come

15    there.  Those were also noninstitutional meetings.

16       Q.   You see, in your affidavit that said you stopped working as

17    president in March, you're also recorded as having said, and it's the last

18    sentence of this affidavit, "Dario never called me during the war years

19    and never issued any orders to me in my capacity as president of Novi

20    Travnik."  "Never called me during the war years," is that strictly

21    accurate or is that another slip of somebody's typewriter or pen?

22       A.   It is quite true that he never issued any orders to me; that is

23    quite true.  Now, as for calling or telephoning, such contacts could have

24    been.  But issuing orders, no.

25       Q.   I see.  So, again, your affidavit in error.  Can you think of any

Page 27998

 1    way that this affidavit made this second significant error about Kordic,

 2    saying "he never called me" when that simply was not true?

 3            MR. SAYERS:  Your Honour, I absolutely object to the form of that

 4    question.  That mischaracterises what Mr. Sekic said and the Prosecution

 5    knows it.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Don't personalise, Mr. Sayers.  That is objectionable

 7    in itself.  This trial has been going on long enough for the manners of

 8    counsel to have improved.

 9            Mr. Nice, I don't think we're going to get further with this

10    witness.

11            MR. NICE:  I'm going to leave it there.  My case is as is put to

12    this witness.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

14            MR. SAYERS:  No further questions, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

16            Mr. Sekic, that concludes your evidence.  You are free to go now.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I express my

18    gratitude to you.  And may I also greet Dario and Mario?

19            JUDGE MAY:  You can leave now.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21            JUDGE MAY:  There's a matter I want to raise in closed session,

22    please.

23                          [Private session]

24    [redacted]

25    [redacted]          

Page 27999













13    Page 27999 redacted – in closed session.













Page 28000

 1    [redacted]

 2    [redacted]

 3    [redacted]

 4    [redacted]

 5    [redacted]

 6    [redacted]

 7    [redacted]

 8    [redacted]

 9    [redacted]

10                          [Open session]

11            MR. NICE:  There's a document that I'd like the Court to take into

12    account as an exhibit or otherwise.  The Court already has it, but for

13    ease of reference, I've had copies made for the Court of the relevant

14    pages.  If that could be handed in, please, to the learned Judges and to

15    Defence.  It relates not to this witness but to the previous witness, and

16    once Your Honour sees it, the point will become obvious.

17            The Court will remember that I was struggling with my memory to

18    find the document that set out what Maric was likely to say about the four

19    presidents' document.  I'm not seeking to revisit that as an exhibit, but

20    these go substantially -- these issues go substantially to his credit.

21    I'm afraid I didn't have the document at my fingertips; my shortcoming.

22            The Court will remember the answers that the witness gave both to

23    His Honour Judge Bennouna and to me, emphatically denying any knowledge of

24    the four presidents document.  We see on this part of the filing, it's an

25    extract from the filing of the 26th of November, that under Maric's name,

Page 28001

 1    it says:

 2            "He will controvert the factually false allegations contained in

 3    certain unstamped and anonymously authored documents that have been

 4    allowed into evidence to the effect that there were significant disputes

 5    or differences of opinion between Mr. Kordic and the leaders of the

 6    municipalities of Novi Travnik, Busovaca, Vitez, and Travnik.

 7    Specifically, he will address the contentions made in the anonymous

 8    document produced by the Prosecution which supposedly recounts a

 9    round-table discussion between the presidents of these municipalities.

10    The anonymous document has political motivations and was produced by an

11    organisation with known criminal ties specifically in the area of

12    narcotics trafficking and arms smuggling."

13            That was what was originally expected from this witness, and if

14    I'd had the document at my fingertips, I'd have put it to him.  I'd invite

15    the Chamber to say it is clearly apt for further consideration on the

16    issue of his credibility.

17            MR. SAYERS:  We didn't show him the document, Your Honour.  We

18    recited to him the scurrilous allegations that are contained in it, and he

19    told us that they were absolutely false.  There's no need for him to be

20    shown the document whatsoever.  We just covered with him the allegations

21    that were contained in it, and if there's any dispute on that, my

22    suggestion is let's bring him back and ask him about it, if the

23    Prosecution wants another go at him.

24            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, we'll consider the matter.  Thank you.

25            While the witness is being brought, let me deal with Friday, the

Page 28002

 1    15th of December, and the rest of the closing submissions.

 2            On the 15th of December, 9.30 to 1.00, the remainder of the Kordic

 3    Defence submissions.  The break at the usual time.  From 11.30 to 1.00,

 4    Cerkez Defence submissions, first half.  Lunch at the usual times.  From

 5    2.30 to 4.00, Cerkez second half of Defence submissions.

 6                          [The witness entered court]

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 9    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                          WITNESS:  DUSKO GRUBESIC

11                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

12            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, if you'd take a seat.

13            Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

14            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15                          Examined by Mr. Naumovski:

16       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Grubesic.

17       A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Naumovski.

18       Q.   May I just remind you of that instruction which I already gave you

19    to pause a little before answering so as not to make the work of the

20    interpreters more difficult than it has to be.

21            Now, will you please be so kind and give the Chamber your full

22    name.

23       A.   Your Honours, my name is Dusko Grubesic.  I was born on the 29th

24    of July, 1960, in Busovaca.

25            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please come closer to the

Page 28003

 1    microphone.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Grubesic, you're asked to come closer to the

 3    microphone so that the interpreters can hear everything you say.  Thank

 4    you.

 5            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   Thank you.  If there is no objection, I believe that we could go

 7    relatively quickly through this first part of your statement which has to

 8    do with your particulars.

 9            Mr. Grubesic, you are a brigadier.  You have the rank of a

10    brigadier in the army of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you are

11    the active commander of the 3rd Zdrug, of the 3rd Detachment of the army

12    of the Federation; is that correct?

13       A.   It is.

14       Q.   And you are married and you live in the town of Busovaca, don't

15    you?

16       A.   I do.

17       Q.   Before the war began in Central Bosnia, you, like the majority of

18    younger people in the former Yugoslavia, served your military service with

19    the former army and you also attended a school for reserve infantry

20    officers of the former JNA in the town of Bileca in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is

21    that correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And after you went through this basic training, you went also for

24    further training for about six months in the town of Bjelovar in the

25    Republic of Croatia; is that correct?

Page 28004

 1       A.   It is.

 2       Q.   And after you quit the army, you had the reserve rank, didn't you,

 3    of the reserve corporal; is that correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Brigadier, in the early days of the war in the territory of the

 6    former Yugoslavia or, rather, in Croatia in September 1991, you were

 7    called up to serve with the reserve police forces of the Ministry of the

 8    Interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and you were there, you

 9    served with them until sometime in April of 1992; is that correct?

10       A.   It is.

11       Q.   And then in April 1992, you were appointed to the municipal staff

12    of the HVO in Busovaca as the deputy commander; is that correct?

13       A.   It is.

14       Q.   Will you tell the Court who was the commander at the time, that

15    is, who is your superior?

16       A.   At that time, my superior was Mr. Ivo Brnada.

17       Q.   Mr. Brnada was there for about two months and if I understood it

18    well, in June of 1992 you succeeded Ivo Brnada as the commander of the

19    municipal HVO staff in Busovaca; is that correct?

20       A.   It is.

21       Q.   Brigadier, you held that post, the post of the commander of the

22    municipal HVO staff between June until the end of October 1992; is that

23    correct?

24       A.   It is.

25       Q.   And I suppose it is also fair to say that meanwhile, about a month

Page 28005

 1    or so in August until the -- and between the end of September, you

 2    contracted pneumonia, and for that, you were hospitalised in the hospital

 3    in Travnik and for that reason you could not really carry out the duties

 4    of the commander of the HVO municipal staff in Busovaca; is that correct?

 5       A.   It is.  Between the 11th of August and the 25th of September, I

 6    was hospitalised in the Travnik hospital.  During that time, Ivica Cosic

 7    took over and acted as the commander.

 8            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our outline goes

 9    chronologically, but to go through the background and finish with that, I

10    would move on to paragraph 10 and 11, and would then move on to items 53

11    onward so as to cover in full Witness Grubesic's career.  So item 10.

12       Q.   Let me ask you like this:  When was the Brigade Nikola

13    Subic-Zrinjski founded in Busovaca?  Which is the true date of its

14    foundation?  When do you mark the brigade day?

15       A.   The Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade was properly founded on the 19th

16    of December, 1992.

17            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps now is the

18    time to hand over to the Court some documents which we wish to tender in

19    evidence with the Witness Grubesic.  With your leave, I should rather not

20    go through them document by document, because that would take too much

21    time.  We would like to cover two sets of documents and we may only refer

22    to others.  And if Your Honours or perhaps my learned friends have some

23    questions on them, then we can come back to them.

24            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Scott.

25            MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, just briefly, we reserve our position

Page 28006













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Page 28007

 1    that the vast amount of these documents are not appropriate rejoinder.  I

 2    think the Chamber will see, if it will review some of these documents,

 3    that we've gone far beyond the scope of rejoinder and getting into the

 4    area of concern that the Prosecution raised yesterday.  We just reserve

 5    that position.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

 7            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask, if I may, it

 8    is quite true that some of the documents are rejoinder documents.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  No need at the moment.  We'll have the argument in due

10    course.

11            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

12       Q.   Tell us, Brigadier, who appointed -- who designated brigade

13    commanders in Central Bosnia including the commander of Nikola

14    Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca?

15       A.   The appointments were all done by the commander of the Central

16    Bosnia Operative Zone, that is Colonel Tihomir Blaskic.

17       Q.   And tell us, please, whom did Colonel Blaskic appoint as the first

18    commander of Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca?

19       A.   Mr. Niko Jozinovic was appointed the first commander of the Nikola

20    Subic-Zrinjski Brigade.

21            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] May I just remind the Court that

22    that is chapter 2 of the document that we have tendered.

23       Q.   Witness Grubesic, you were appointed the deputy commander, that

24    is, Mr. Jozinovic's deputy; is that correct?

25       A.   It is.

Page 28008

 1       Q.   However, Mr. Niko Jozinovic was shortly relieved of that duty and

 2    transferred to Zepce to be the brigade commander there; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.  Two or three months later, sometime in February 1993,

 4    Mr. Niko Jozinovic was relieved of that duty and I was appointed to that

 5    post.

 6       Q.   You were appointed, and it is document 19 in this sequence of

 7    documents, as Tihomir Blaskic said, the acting commander as it was phrased

 8    then, and that actually means that you acted as the commander.

 9       A.   Yes.  I was acting as the commander of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski

10    Brigade.

11       Q.   Right.  And since we are talking about appointments, you were, at

12    a later stage, appointed as the permanent commander.  We have it in --

13    under item 35.  You were formally appointed the commander of the brigade

14    in May 1993; is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.  In the former half of May 1993.

16       Q.   Thank you.  And now, as I have told Your Honours, let us move to

17    item 53.

18            You kept that duty, that is, you held that post from February

19    until which date in 1993?

20       A.   I held that post from the 8th of February until the end of October

21    1993.

22       Q.   And what happened then?

23       A.   And then I was relieved.  I was relieved of the duty of the

24    commander of Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, and Jure Cavara was appointed

25    to command the brigade.

Page 28009

 1       Q.   This was in chapter 44.  Now, if I understood you well, in October

 2    you were relieved of the duty of the commander; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And what did you do between October 1993 and January 1994?

 5       A.   During that period of time, I visited defence lines and, in a

 6    manner of speaking, represented moral support.  And then in the latter

 7    half of December, because of some health problems, I was transferred to

 8    Herzegovina, and there I went through medical examinations and I did those

 9    in the hospital in Split.

10       Q.   If I understood you well, that was a very short absence.  You were

11    not absent from Central Bosnia for a long time, were you?

12       A.   For about ten days.

13       Q.   Very well.  And during that time, you volunteered as a soldier, if

14    I may call it that, that is, you were on the front line.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Very well.  And tell us what happened to your career then in

17    January 1994?

18       A.   On the 16th of January, I was summoned to the command of the

19    Central Bosnia Operative Zone command together with Colonel Ilija Nakic

20    and Mr. Dragan Vinac.  At that meeting, we were told that a 3rd Guards

21    Brigade was about to be set up, and that its commander -- and that the

22    commander of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, Colonel Tihomir Blaskic,

23    having consulted Mr. Filip Filipovic and chief of staff, Mr. Franjo Nakic,

24    proposed that the 3rd Guards become -- that is the commander of the 3rd

25    Guards becomes Colonel Ilija Nakic, and deputy commander, Mr. Dragan

Page 28010

 1    Vinac, and nominated me for the post of the chief of staff.

 2       Q.   So Colonel Blaskic proposed to appoint you to the post of the

 3    chief of staff of the 3rd Guards Brigade, and you took up that duty

 4    between the 16th of January until August 1994; is that correct?

 5       A.   Yes, until the end of August 1996.

 6       Q.   And then you underwent supplementary military training in Zagreb.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  We're getting well away from the rejoinder evidence.

 8    Now, can we go back to that, please?

 9            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just to

10    round off the background with two questions more.

11            JUDGE MAY:  What is the relevance of it?

12            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted you to

13    have full insight into Brigadier Grubesic's personal background and also

14    his military career.

15            JUDGE MAY:  We have full insight now.  We can read what it says in

16    the summary.  There's no need to go over it again.  Now, let us go back to

17    the beginning.  Time is limited.  It seems to me paragraph 9 is not in the

18    least bit rejoinder.  Paragraph -- I thought we might start at paragraph

19    13 insofar as that's relevant.  Probably paragraph 15 we can start on what

20    is actually rejoinder evidence.

21            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I agree with you, Your Honour.  Of

22    course we're going to go through this very quickly.

23       Q.   Brigadier, just a few questions about the chain of command.  Tell

24    us, please, you held military duties.  You were a soldier in the Croat

25    Defence Council.  First of all, this Croat Community, who was supreme

Page 28011

 1    commander of the HVO military forces until the signing of the Washington

 2    Agreement?

 3       A.   The Supreme Commander of the armed forces of the Croat Defence

 4    Council was Mr. Mate Boban.

 5       Q.   At a lower level, while you held posts within the municipal staff

 6    in Busovaca, or later in the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca,

 7    who did you receive your orders from, military orders?

 8       A.   During my command, I personally took orders from the Commander of

 9    the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, Mr. Tihomir Blaskic.

10       Q.   Brigadier, tell us, please, did you ever receive orders from

11    politicians, from persons who held political and administrative posts?

12    For example, Mr. Maric, President of the HVO in Busovaca, or Florijan

13    Glavocevic, or Mr. Kordic, or anybody else.

14       A.   No, Your Honours, I did not receive orders from civilian

15    authorities.

16       Q.   We would like to go through the events in Busovaca very quickly

17    and the night of the 20th of January or, rather, from the 20th of January

18    onwards.  This is paragraph 16, by the way.

19            Brigadier, you were not in Busovaca in January.  You were at a

20    different place in terms of your military assignments.

21       A.   No, on the 20th of January, I was not in Busovaca.  I was at the

22    defence line, the town of Travnik, the Vlasic plateau, with the forces

23    that were sent from the municipal staff or, rather, from the Nikola

24    Subic-Zrinjski Brigade.

25       Q.   You used an expression, "the plateau of Vlasic."  Is this a

Page 28012

 1    relatively narrow area or is this a wider area?  Speaking in geographical

 2    terms, are we speaking in terms of kilometres or metres?

 3       A.   The mountain of Vlasic is an enormous plateau; I believe it

 4    includes tens of kilometres.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, when you returned to Busovaca, I

 6    mean, when did this exactly happen in January 1993?

 7       A.   I returned to Busovaca in the afternoon hours of the 23rd of

 8    January, 1993.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Then, when you came, did you hear at brigade

10    headquarters about what had been going on in town, and in the municipality

11    of Busovaca in general, during those past few days?

12       A.   Yes.  Upon arrival at brigade headquarters, I received information

13    that, in the evening hours of the 20th of January, a group of criminals -

14    I think we should call them that - threw explosive devices at Muslim

15    establishments, and a few Croat shops were damaged in the process.

16       Q.   Did you hear about any armed incidents, about any casualties?

17       A.   Yes.  After that, housing facilities were searched in order to

18    find the perpetrators.  When the Delija family home was searched, an

19    incident occurred between the members of the military police and

20    Mr. Mirsad Delija.  There was shooting and Mr. Mirsad Delija was wounded.

21       Q.   Very well.

22       A.   Subsequently, I received information that he passed away while he

23    was being transported to the clinic.

24       Q.   Tell me, please, do you perhaps remember how many weapons were

25    seized at various places in town that night, in Busovaca, if you remember?

Page 28013

 1       A.   I could not say exactly how many guns were involved.  According to

 2    the information I received, it was between 30 and 40 guns.  However,

 3    obviously, there were individuals who took these guns for themselves.

 4       Q.   All right.  So to conclude on this point regarding the

 5    circumstances of Mirsad Delija's death, you said that you had heard about

 6    an incident.  What kind of an incident was this?  Why was there shooting?

 7    Was there any official information about this?

 8       A.   Allegedly, the military policemen wanted to search Mr. Mirsad

 9    Delija's family home; he opposed that.  One version says that he came out

10    with two hand grenades; another version has it that he came out with a

11    hand grenade and a pistol; that is to say, there was a conflict between

12    the military police and Mirsad Delija.

13       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Tell me, please - this is paragraph 20,

14    Your Honours - did you hear about any other incidents, about an incident

15    in Kacuni on that day, on the 20th of January?

16       A.   Yes, yes.  Basically, in the evening hours, at the checkpoint in

17    Kacuni, Mr. Ignac Kostroman was stopped.  His weapons were taken away and,

18    after brief discussions, he was released.

19       Q.   Tell me, please, through all this information that you heard about

20    at brigade headquarters concerning the 20th of January, did you hear of

21    Mr. Kordic having anything to do whatsoever with any of these incidents,

22    either this incident in town or the other one in Kacuni?

23       A.   As far as I know, Mr. Kordic did not have anything to do with any

24    of that.  He condemned all these incidents, both in Kacuni and in the town

25    of Busovaca.

Page 28014

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on to this other incident of the 24th.

 2    You had just arrived in town.  Do you know about what happened on the 24th

 3    of January, 1993 in Kacuni?  Were there any casualties, things like that?

 4       A.   Yes.  Your Honours, upon my return from the front lines in

 5    Travnik, as I was approaching Kaonik, a junction near Busovaca, I saw some

 6    persons of Muslim ethnicity who were moving towards Zenica, and along the

 7    road to Busovaca I encountered 15 or 20 civilians with shopping bags and

 8    bags.

 9       Q.   Tell me, please, when you're referring to civilians, who are you

10    actually referring to?

11       A.   All of them were women and children.  After arriving at

12    headquarters, I asked what was going on.  Then I was informed that for a

13    few days already, the Muslim population had been leaving their homes and

14    going to Zenica.

15       Q.   Very well.  And what about the men?

16       A.   The men, they stayed at home.

17       Q.   All right.  Later on we will refer to that.  Let us just complete

18    what happened in Kacuni, to the best of your knowledge, on the 24th of

19    January, 1993.

20       A.   According to intelligence sources, it was noticed that, in terms

21    of the area of Kacuni, certain parts of the units belonging to the 7th

22    Muslim Brigade had arrived and a certain number of members of the 17th

23    Krajiska Ljuta, and that from then onwards there were some problems in

24    communication.  People were stopped and mistreated quite often.

25            Then, on the 24th of January, in the afternoon hours, according to

Page 28015

 1    information received from the civilian population, a checkpoint was set up

 2    by the BH army.  They stopped Mr. Srecko Kristo, who was going with a

 3    young boy from Kresevo - I can't remember his last name now - and also a

 4    member of the military police, Mr. Ivica Petrovic.

 5       Q.   Did you hear about what had happened, whether there were any

 6    casualties?  Let us try to keep this as short as possible, not to go into

 7    all sorts of details.

 8       A.   Yes, yes.  There were two casualties involved:  Mr. Ivica

 9    Petrovic, a member of the military police, and Mr. Igor, who was going

10    with Srecko Kristo.

11       Q.   Very well.  Tell us, please, apart from the killing of these two

12    Croats that you mentioned, were there any other actions taken against

13    other HVO soldiers, to put it that way?  Were there any arrests?

14       A.   Yes.  In terms of the agreement reached with Mr. Huso Hadzimejlic,

15    at the plateau of Mount Busovaca, we had joint units located there in case

16    there were some airborne raids of the Yugoslav Armada and the Bosnian

17    Serbs.

18       Q.   What happened to these soldiers?

19       A.   After their replacements arrived, they were taken prisoner in the

20    area of Pridolci and taken to the Silos prison in Kacuni.

21       Q.   Very well.  Let us try to shorten things even more and let me ask

22    you what then happened on the 25th of January, 1993.  Was there a

23    conflict?  Was there a conflict and who attacked who?

24       A.   On the 25th of January in the morning hours, there was shooting in

25    the centre of town coming from Kadica Strana.  In this way, the conflicts

Page 28016

 1    officially started in Busovaca and they later spread from all the lines

 2    from the direction of Kacuni, Mount Kuber, et cetera.

 3       Q.   Very well.  Tell me, who attacked who on this 25th of January,

 4    1993 in the territory of the municipality of Busovaca or rather the area

 5    where you were carrying out your military duties?

 6       A.   I already pointed out that we were attacked in the morning hours

 7    from Kadica Strana.  We were attacked by the Muslim side.  And I pointed

 8    out that in the period around the 20th, units from the 7th Muslim Brigade

 9    and the 17th Krajiska Ljuta came to the area there of Kacuni and located

10    themselves there.

11       Q.   I do apologise.  Since you mentioned the 17th Krajiska, I

12    mentioned that you heard why these soldiers had come.  Were they promised

13    something?

14       A.   Yes.  Yes.  The intelligence information said that they were

15    promised apartments and houses in the territory of the municipality of

16    Busovaca and that they could keep whatever they took.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Let us just go back to these events in Busovaca with

18    one more question.  You said that there was fighting in the town of

19    Busovaca itself.  How did this fighting end, in town, I mean?

20       A.   In the morning hours, the members of the military police sealed

21    off a part of town.  Then, 15 to 20 members of the civilian police came to

22    help them out, and then they asked the commander of the Operative Zone of

23    Central Bosnia for reinforcements because we did not have sufficient

24    forces, nor were we prepared for any kind of conflict.

25       Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting.  I didn't mean to be rude, but we will

Page 28017













13   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14   and French transcripts.












Page 28018

 1    deal with this in greater detail a bit later.  I just wanted you to tell

 2    me in one sentence:  How did this fighting end, and what happened to the

 3    members of the BH army or, rather, the TO, the Territorial Defence?

 4       A.   The members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were defeated in the

 5    afternoon and taken to Kaonik prison.

 6       Q.   Do you know perhaps how long they were kept there and whether they

 7    were exchanged after that?

 8       A.   A few weeks until the exchange took place.  I think it was two

 9    weeks at a maximum.

10       Q.   All right.  Tell me, please, after the conflict broke out in

11    Busovaca, you say the attack of the BH army against the HVO in January

12    1993, did Busovaca remain cut off from Kiseljak or could the road between

13    Busovaca and Kiseljak be used?

14       A.   Yes.  Yes.  The Busovaca-Kiseljak road was cut already in the

15    morning, and the Muslim forces were deployed along the Kozica River and

16    they used other dominant places to direct their attack against Busovaca

17    from there.

18       Q.   The Honorable Court already knows that this road was cut off until

19    the end of the war so we don't have to deal with this much longer.  We can

20    move on to paragraph 26 now.

21            Tell me, please, when this attack took place in January 1993,

22    where was the command, the headquarters of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski

23    Brigade in Busovaca?

24       A.   The headquarters were stationed at the Draga barracks, for the

25    most part, and a certain part was in the building of Sumarija.

Page 28019

 1       Q.   The building of Sumarija is also in the town of Busovaca, isn't

 2    it?

 3       A.   Yes.  With your permission, I would like to continue.  After that,

 4    the command post was transferred to the post office building because this

 5    premises were protected from earlier on from April 1992 when we were

 6    shelled by the Yugoslav Peoples' Army and the Bosnian Serbs.

 7       Q.   All right.  So if I understood you correctly, it is reasons of

 8    safety and security that led to this temporary transfer to the post office

 9    building in the town of Busovaca.

10       A.   Yes.  Yes.  There were shellings so it was safest to be there.

11       Q.   Tell me, please, at this temporary command post, did you have your

12    office there, you, personally?

13       A.   First of all, I have to point out, Your Honours, that at that

14    time, Mr. Niko Jozinovic had an office of his own.  As his deputy, I

15    coordinated between the command post in the post office building and the

16    command post in Sumarija where the command of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski

17    Brigade was.  Mr. Jozinovic had an office there.  He had a room with maps

18    in it, operative maps, rather.  But basically, I used those premises

19    together with him from time to time.

20       Q.   Tell me, please, in addition to Niko Jozinovic and your then

21    commander and yourself, did anybody else use this area as their office,

22    for example, Mr. Kordic?

23            JUDGE MAY:  How does this arrive out of the rejoinder evidence?

24    It was given, all this evidence was given in chief about the PTT

25    building.  The British officers described Kordic's office in the PTT

Page 28020

 1    building.  There was no evidence in rejoinder about it.  We can't have

 2    evidence which isn't related to the rejoinder evidence.  You can't produce

 3    a witness at the very end and try and shore up what was the evidence

 4    during the trial.

 5            If you wanted to call this witness to deal with the PTT building,

 6    the time to have done it was during the trial.

 7            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] In principle, I absolutely agree

 8    with what you say, Your Honour.  However, so many new documents were

 9    tendered that in this mass of documents, it is hard to tell what is old

10    and what is new in terms of details, but if you wish, I will move on to

11    another subject straight away.

12            JUDGE MAY:  There wasn't a mass of documents.  We made a

13    particular point of restricting the documents which were allowed for that

14    very reason.

15            You could deal, if you want, with the artillery, because that is

16    something which was introduced.  The documents suggested there's a

17    connection between Mr. Kordic and the use of artillery.  Now, that is an

18    issue which was dealt with in those new documents, it would cover that.

19            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, quite gladly.

20    This question related to the post office building was all meant as an

21    introduction for a discussion of document Z421.4, but I shall try to cut

22    this as short as possible.

23       Q.   Tell me, Brigadier, the state of readiness of the Nikola

24    Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in January 1993, was it good or was it not good and

25    if not so, why not?

Page 28021

 1       A.   Your Honours, the command of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade was

 2    not prepared for conflicts with the BH army.  We happened to be in a very

 3    difficult situation.  Confusion prevailed.  Indeed, it was difficult in

 4    those moments to bring together the units of the brigade.  I have already

 5    pointed out that we already had one company deployed in the plateau of

 6    Vlasic.

 7            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8            Your Honours, if this is a good moment, perhaps we could break off

 9    now, but could I just get a number for the document, please?

10            JUDGE MAY:  Which document?

11            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] This one, the one we've produced.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  The document will be numbered Defence Exhibit

13    D356/1.

14            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15            JUDGE MAY:  We'll adjourn now until half past 2.00.

16            Brigadier Grubesic, don't speak to anybody about your evidence

17    until it's over, and that does include members of the Defence team.  Could

18    you be back, please, at half past 2.00.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.






Page 28022

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

 3            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4       Q.   Brigadier, let us move on to the topic which is the most relevant

 5    for the Court and for us and that is the role and activities of Mr. Dario

 6    Kordic.

 7            First question:  Tell us, please, did Mr. Dario Kordic, while you

 8    held your military -- while you held your military duties in Busovaca, was

 9    Mr. Kordic ever a military commander of any kind?

10       A.   Your Honours, during my service as the commander, Mr. Kordic was

11    no commander.  He was a politician, one of two vice-presidents of the

12    Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, that is, Croat Community, and the

13    Vice-President of the Croat Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14       Q.   Tell us, please, did Mr. Kordic, while holding those offices which

15    you say he held, participate in the resolution of daily problems which

16    arose in the municipality of Busovaca and in the broader area, that is,

17    the Lasva Valley?

18       A.   Absolutely.  Mr. Kordic, that is, apart from his obligations, had

19    a lot of pressure to bear from the civilian population, and especially

20    after the fall of the town of Jajce in late October 1992 and onward.

21       Q.   Tell us, please, if this public pressure, the pressure of the

22    inhabitants of Busovaca, also existed during the January attack on

23    Busovaca, or not.

24       A.   Yes.  I already stressed, as of October 1992, throughout January

25    to April 1993, and after that.

Page 28023

 1       Q.   Tell us, please, to your knowledge, through possibly your personal

 2    contacts with Mr. Kordic or his surroundings, are you aware if -- do you

 3    know if he helped, if he did what he could to meet the requests of people

 4    addressed to him?

 5       A.   Well, insofar as I know, Your Honours, Mr. Kordic wanted to help

 6    every man, and that also goes for the time of the fiercest conflicts.

 7    Wishing, in a way, to be in the arena, to be in the heart of events, he

 8    extended support to everybody.

 9            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have, more or

10    less, reached item 31.  As a matter of fact, I have prepared a set of

11    several documents which are all based on the same facts and concern the

12    same fact.  They are all part of the file which we turned over to you, but

13    we prepared it only as an aid to Your Honours and to the witness to follow

14    better what we are talking about.  These are the documents Z421.4 and

15    documents which are in this big binder and marked 16, 15, 14, and 13.

16    They all bear on the same issue and have to do with document Z421.4.

17            JUDGE MAY:  Are these documents which have been admitted or not?

18            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes.  That is all with the first

19    one.  This is merely an aid.

20            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Yes.

21            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Before I move to that, it is my

22    duty to draw your attention to a document which is in tab 15.  That is the

23    only document of all those that we tendered today, or rather that we would

24    like to adduce in this case, which are not on the list we submitted a few

25    days ago.

Page 28024

 1            Why?  Because the search for this document, if I might call it --

 2    this document was found only after Mr. Grubesic told us about it when he

 3    arrived in The Hague.  I hope that Your Honours will understand from the

 4    context that it is closely linked with those other documents and that it

 5    is nothing beyond that.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Naumovski, let me understand the position.  I have

 7    now got this in front of me.  I can see Exhibit Z421.4 and it appears on

 8    the top of that document.  I now come to a document --

 9            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Exactly.

10            JUDGE MAY:  -- tab 16.  There is no mark of any exhibit on it.

11    Where does it come from, if you say it's already been admitted?  What is

12    its number?

13            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] It is the document 356/1, D356/1

14    that was the document that was adduced and admitted today, and tab 16.

15    Your Honours, it looks like --

16            JUDGE MAY:  I simply don't understand what do you mean.  When was

17    it adduced today, 356/1?

18            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] This whole binder, Your Honours,

19    was tendered today at the beginning of Brigadier Grubesic's testimony.  I

20    hope I did not misquote the number.  We were given the number at the end

21    of this morning's session.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  You see, what I understood you to have said was

23    that it had been admitted.  It had simply been put in by you as a general

24    document, but in any event, I turn to tab 15 in it in the large bundle.  I

25    see.  Yes.  Yes, go on.

Page 28025

 1            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, I have

 2    also prepared a set of these documents in Croatian and in English if they

 3    should be put on the ELMO to facilitate matters.

 4       Q.   Brigadier, will you please look at this document Z421.4.  It is an

 5    order of the 30th of January, 1993.  Are you familiar with this document

 6    and are you aware of the circumstances under which this document came into

 7    existence?

 8       A.   Yes, I am familiar with that document, and with your leave, I will

 9    give an explanation regarding this document, that is, this order.

10            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, briefly.

11       A.   Following the all-out aggression of the BH army against the lands

12    of Busovaca, a total disarray, the units of the Croat Defence Council were

13    in total disarray as a result of that.  And the then commander, Mr. Niko

14    Jozinovic repeatedly requested support from the superior command.

15    Unfortunately, we got none.  He asked me to intercede with Mr. Kordic to

16    see if we could get some support from soldiers in other municipalities in

17    one way or another.

18            Since the Busovaca-Kiseljak communication was cut off, the

19    commander of the Operative Zone was in the territory of Kiseljak.  All the

20    PTT communications were cut off.  After that, I called Mr. Kordic, that

21    is, his office at Tisovac and asked him to use his authority, his prestige

22    to try to help resolve the problem.  He said that he'd see, and that he

23    would let me know in five or ten minutes' time.

24            After that, Mr. Kordic called and said that he had obtained the

25    consent of the Minister of Defence or, rather, the chief of the defence

Page 28026

 1    administration of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna, and that within

 2    that concept, we should prepare the order for the brigade, for the

 3    Tomasevic Brigade in Novi Travnik.  The commander tasked the operations

 4    staff to prepare the order.  After that, it was sent to Tisovac to be

 5    signed by Mr. Kordic even though, I must say, that he tried to establish

 6    contact with Colonel Tihomir Blaskic, he, unfortunately, failed to do

 7    that.

 8            After the man returned with the order signed, the secretary put a

 9    stamp on it because this document was to be sent on to the military

10    district.

11            JUDGE MAY:  I must ask you, Mr. Grubesic, to be brief and to the

12    point.  You have been going on.  I asked you to answer briefly and you

13    have been going on for three minutes, and I am simply not following what

14    you are saying.

15            Are you saying that you drew up this order; is that what you're

16    saying, and you got it signed by Mr. Kordic?

17       A.   Your Honours, this document was prepared by the operations staff

18    of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade and Mr. Kordic signed it.  We stamped

19    the document with the brigade seal, and used the packet in order to send

20    it to the Operative Zone Central Bosnia.  When the commander went through

21    the document, he then added by hand to notify Operative Zone Central

22    Bosnia.

23            JUDGE MAY:  Right.  That is the point.  Thank you.  We have it.

24            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Just to follow up on this.  The tab 16, this is the same document

Page 28027

 1    which was to be sent by packet to the Operative Zone, isn't it,

 2    Mr. Grubesic?

 3       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  That is, after the document was sealed,

 4    stamped, I pointed out that the document had to be addressed to the

 5    Operative Zone Central Bosnia, that is, chief of staff, since the

 6    commander was cut off and because the artillery had to act in the area of

 7    Roski Stijene.

 8       Q.   And this addition, Mr. Grubesic, in this packet message, that is

 9    in this document, tab 16, who is the author of this addition below

10    Mr. Kordic's signature, below Mr. Kordic's name?

11       A.   I added this because of the confidentiality of information.  We

12    were well aware that we were being surveyed, that we were being tapped and

13    I used the packet system to send to the chief of artillery this

14    information.  However, as I was writing it, we learnt from the ground that

15    there was no need, that new forces had arrived, and then I wrote this

16    addition in a minute.

17       Q.   Very well.  Can we then move on to the document in tab 15.  That

18    is the next document.

19            We don't need to remind Their Honours that these two orders, the

20    order that you mentioned was dated the 30th of January, 1993.  This is a

21    document which you also identified, or, rather, you remembered it when we

22    talked about it.  So will you now please be so kind and tell the Court,

23    what is this document?

24       A.   After the packet or, rather, the order was sent, the operations

25    officer on duty notified us that there was no need because they had

Page 28028













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Page 28029

 1    already carried out the order.  I informed about this Commander Niko

 2    Jozinovic, who then returned this order and signed it to indicate that

 3    another order had been carried out.

 4       Q.   It was done on both.  On document Z421.2 and in this document in

 5    tab 16, that is, the packet message, the handwriting is identical.

 6       A.   Your Honours, yes, because it is common knowledge that the system

 7    of command and control can go only through the commander of the Operative

 8    Zone of Central Bosnia, and that basically nobody else can issue any

 9    other -- any military orders or any deployment of forces.

10       Q.   Tell us, Brigadier, please, this document in tab 15, which is the

11    letter that you received from the duty officer in the Operative Zone of

12    Central Bosnia, contains in the first sentence something else too.

13    Because you are being sent orders which were issued the day before, but

14    they are sent to you only after you transmitted your packet message,

15    aren't they?

16       A.   Yes.  Your Honours, the duty officer notified us that, on the

17    basis of an oral request, they wrote out the orders and that we should be

18    expecting them.

19       Q.   To try to cut it short, we can say that these are the orders, in

20    the end, under tabs 14 and 15.  Those two tabs contain those orders.  They

21    are, if you agree with me, the orders which you received after you had

22    sent your order to the Operative Zone by packet.

23       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Only, as far as I know, this second order for

24    the special purposes unit, if my memory serves me well, it was basically

25    not fully carried out because reportedly the unit refused to come.

Page 28030

 1       Q.   Very well.  So to round off this topic, Brigadier, after you told

 2    Their Honours -- after you were informed by the Operative Zone that they

 3    had already acted upon your previous request, which was practically the

 4    fate of this order which you or, rather, your officers put together and

 5    which Mr. Kordic signed.

 6       A.   This order was sent back.  It was vacated and put back in the

 7    archive.

 8       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  A while ago you told us that Mr. Kordic

 9    helped as best he knew in various events, that is, that he wanted to be of

10    assistance, if I understood you properly.

11       A.   Yes, basically, because of the pressures brought on him and, I

12    have already pointed out, because of the major influx of refugees.  He

13    wanted to help everybody.

14            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I don't want to waste too much

15    time with documents, but perhaps we could just show the document in

16    tab 22, Your Honours.  There is the English version for the ELMO and the

17    Croatian version for the witness.

18       Q.   Brigadier, this is an order that you know.  In two words, because

19    the document speaks for itself, you signed this order, you are its author,

20    aren't you?

21       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  This is not an order; this is an

22    authorisation, basically.

23       Q.   Yes, yes, that is what I meant.  That was a slip of the tongue on

24    my part, I apologise.  But you were its author, weren't you?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 28031

 1       Q.   And tell us, on the left-hand side, we see that the consent of the

 2    Vice-President of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna is Mr. Kordic, isn't

 3    it?

 4       A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 5       Q.   Tell us, please, what were the circumstances under which

 6    Mr. Kordic signed this, and why?

 7       A.   Namely, in the brigade command, Mr. Enver Prolaz dropped by the

 8    command and sought permission for Mr. Husein Hadzimejlic to replace him in

 9    his absence, that is, that Mr. Hadzimejlic should perform the regular

10    rituals at the indicated intervals.  In view of the authority, of the

11    prestige Mr. Kordic enjoyed, I requested and insisted, for absolute

12    safety, that Mr. Kordic, as the Vice-President of the Croat Community of

13    Herceg-Bosna, co-sign this document.

14       Q.   I see.  But what was the reason for it?  You wanted the public to

15    know that Mr. Kordic stood by this, that is, that he also agreed with your

16    action?

17       A.   The reason for this was to also inform those civilian

18    structures -- the civilian authorities were also informed about this

19    because, as I have pointed out, because of the major influx of refugees,

20    one could anticipate some surprises, that is, some events that would be

21    out of the ordinary, that somebody might die or something; so as not to

22    provoke any incidents, that is.

23       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  We can move on to paragraph 32.

24            Tell us, Brigadier, one of these days, perhaps it was yesterday,

25    you had a look at some documents that were shown to you from which one

Page 28032

 1    might infer that Mr. Kordic, perhaps, had tried to issue some military

 2    documents.  One of these documents was document Z447.1, in which Mirko

 3    Batinic, who at that time commanded the artillery, if I may call it that,

 4    in the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, in this document, Mr. Batinic

 5    voiced some views about Mr. Kordic.

 6            At that time, when you held various military duties, did you ever

 7    hear about such instances, specifically about this instance which is

 8    related to Mr. Batinic?

 9       A.   Yes, Your Honours, I familiarised myself with this document and I

10    know that from time to time Mr. Kordic wanted, in a way, to be in the

11    arena even though he was not conversant with various military matters, or

12    even if he did know something, that was very little.  But in most such

13    instances, these matters, that is, requests, were denied because the

14    command and control system was well established, and it was known that

15    only the commander of the Operative Zone could authorise the use of

16    artillery with requests of brigade commanders -- upon requests of brigade

17    commanders.

18       Q.   Tell us, please, specifically this instance, that is,

19    Mr. Batinic's, did you hear, what was Mr. Batinic's reaction to this?

20       A.   As far as I know, Your Honours, there was a lot of indignation

21    about such requests, because he was well aware that there were orders

22    which regulated the use and manner of use of means of artillery which,

23    unfortunately, were in short supply.

24       Q.   Very well.  In spite of everything we've been discussing so far

25    and on the basis of all these documents, I have to ask you once again:

Page 28033

 1    Did Mr. Kordic really have any military powers whatsoever?

 2       A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, and I know quite a bit, relatively

 3    speaking, Mr. Kordic had no military powers except for what I mentioned

 4    during my previous address.  I referred to political authority, and he was

 5    considered the leader of the Lasva River Valley.

 6       Q.   Just a question in passing, Brigadier.  I'm referring to the

 7    Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade.  In January or February 1993, did you

 8    attack -- did you use VBRs, multiple rocket launchers, to attack Kacuni or

 9    Lugovi.  Let us just clarify for the Court --

10            JUDGE MAY:  We'll get on quicker if the questions are shorter,

11    Mr. Naumovski.

12            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I agree.

13            JUDGE MAY:  It was a straightforward question.

14            MR. SCOTT:  While we are interrupted for a moment, I would like to

15    make an objection to leading.  These are sensitive issues, and at this

16    point, I'd like to hear the witness' testimony.

17            JUDGE MAY:  The question was:  Did you use multiple rocket

18    launchers to attack Kacuni or Lugovi?  That's not a leading question.

19            MR. SCOTT:  This particular one was not so bad, but there have

20    been a series of them that have been going on for some time.

21            JUDGE MAY:  If there had been, I would have stopped them.  Yes.

22    Yes, let's hear the answer, please, Brigadier Grubesic.

23       A.   Your Honour, the use of a multiple rocket launcher or, rather,

24    multiple rocket launchers and cannons were not used against Kacuni, only

25    82-millimetre and 120-millimetre mortars were used because that's the only

Page 28034

 1    thing the brigade had.  And I have to point out that this was not used

 2    against the populated area but only against the outskirts where the BH

 3    army front line was.

 4            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   In paragraph 33, let's be as brief as possible, the Honorable

 6    Judges know that on the 30th of January, 1993, a ceasefire agreement was

 7    signed through the mediation of UNPROFOR.  I would like to ask you whether

 8    the ceasefire was violated once or several times, and did you protest

 9    about this?  Did you send your protest to anyone specific?

10       A.   Your Honours, this ceasefire agreement was signed, but in spite of

11    that, almost every day there were violations of this agreement.  I

12    informed international factors of this regularly as well as the commander

13    of the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia in accordance with my

14    instructions.

15            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me just remind

16    you that this is 20, 25, 26, and 30 if we look at the documents.

17       Q.   Brigadier, let's move on to another subject.  Do you have any

18    knowledge concerning an event from February 1993 when a flag was raised

19    within the compound of the SPS factory in Vitez?

20       A.   Your Honours, I only have information which I obtained after the

21    event itself.  In my opinion, it was not that important for me, because it

22    was not within my zone of responsibility, namely a flag of the BH army was

23    raised on the chimney of the Vitezit factory.

24       Q.   What happened to that flag, do you know?

25       A.   At one of the briefings in the command of the Operative Zone, I

Page 28035

 1    talked to the chief of staff, Mr. Franjo Nakic, and in that conversation

 2    we touched upon this particular incident with the flag.  He told me that

 3    this was not really a problem, and that it was removed that night by the

 4    security people, that is to say, with the approval of Colonel Tihomir

 5    Blaskic.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on to the next subject, paragraph 36.

 7    Brigadier Grubesic, tell us, do you know about this or did you hear from

 8    any particular source that on the 15th of April, 1993, or at any time

 9    during that day, one meeting or several meetings were held, if any,

10    between the military and civilian structures in the headquarters of the

11    Operative Zone of Central Bosnia in Vitez, that is to say, at Colonel

12    Blaskic's?

13       A.   Your Honour, I am not familiar with this allegation, that on the

14    15th of April there was any meeting in the Operative Zone of Central

15    Bosnia.  I think that had there been one, I certainly would have been

16    asked to come in as acting commander of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski

17    Brigade.

18       Q.   Since we are discussing that particular day, the 15th of April,

19    1993, an event occurred on that day, and that is something that the

20    Honourable Judges have already heard about, and that was the abduction of

21    Zivko Totic and his escorts.  On that day, a press conference was held in

22    Busovaca.  Do you remember that?  Do you know about that?

23       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Your Honours, I remember that on that day, there was

24    not only one incident but several incidents in the period from 12.00

25    onwards for about an hour and a half, a press conference was held

Page 28036

 1    addressing the public, I mean.  I remember that Mr. Kordic was present,

 2    among other people, and also the commander of the Operative Zone of

 3    Central Bosnia, Colonel Tihomir Blaskic.

 4       Q.   In which city -- in which town was this press conference held?

 5       A.   The press conference was held in Busovaca in the premises of the

 6    municipality.

 7       Q.   All right.  As far as you can remember that day, do you know or do

 8    you remember, rather, when Colonel Blaskic left Busovaca or, rather,

 9    whether you saw Mr. Kordic later that day?

10       A.   I did not see Mr. Kordic or Colonel Blaskic, but I do have some

11    information to the effect that there was a joint luncheon at Mr. Kordic's

12    office in Tisovac.  After that, usually we would receive information to

13    the effect that Colonel Blaskic had left, that is to say, that he went

14    towards Vitez and Mr. Kordic probably went home.

15       Q.   Viewed from Tisovac, in which part of town did Mr. Kordic live?

16       A.   I'm sorry, what do you mean?  In which direction?

17       Q.   Is that the road toward Tisovac where Mr. Kordic had a house or

18    was it some other part of town?

19       A.   Mr. Kordic has a house south-west of the town of Busovaca, that is

20    to say, 400 to 500 metres in the direction of Tisovac.

21       Q.   Tell me, please, have you ever heard either then or later that

22    Mr. Kordic left Busovaca on the 15th of April, 1993?

23       A.   Your Honours, I have no such information that Mr. Kordic left the

24    area of the municipality of Busovaca.

25       Q.   We can move on to the next subject.  Tell me, Brigadier, you had

Page 28037

 1    contacts with the other commanders in the territory where you were active,

 2    especially those from neighbouring municipalities.  I imagine that you had

 3    quite a few contacts with the 4th Battalion of the military police too?

 4       A.   Well, at any rate, Your Honours, all commanders of units knew each

 5    other well.  So I knew the commander of the 4th Battalion of the military

 6    police too, which is quite logical, and his subordinate commanding

 7    officers; not only his, but also of other units in the Operative Zone of

 8    Central Bosnia.

 9       Q.   In paragraph 40, you gave an organisational layout of the 4th

10    Battalion, didn't you?

11            JUDGE MAY:  There is no dispute about this so let's move on.

12            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That's

13    precisely what I wanted to say, that we should move on to the next

14    subject.

15       Q.   What is your knowledge concerning the anti-terrorist platoon that

16    was established in late January or early February 1993.

17       A.   Yes.  The information that I had was that it was established --

18    that it consisted of elite troops and that it was located in Vitez for a

19    given amount of time, and then along the communication between Vitez and

20    Busovaca in a place Rasko Polje.

21            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  Your Honours, I don't

22    want to go into some parts of our proceedings that were closed to the

23    public so perhaps it would be a good thing if we moved into private

24    session for just a few moments, please.

25            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

Page 28038

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10    [redacted]

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12    [redacted]

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18    [redacted]

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Page 28039













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Page 28040

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10    [redacted]

11    [redacted]

12    [redacted]

13                          [Open session]

14            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   We are in public session again, so we can proceed.

16            Mr. Grubesic, where were you on the 15th of April, 1993 in the

17    afternoon?  What were you involved in?  What were you doing?

18       A.   Your Honours, all day, I had my regular duties and activities in

19    the -- at the headquarters of the brigade.

20            In the afternoon hours, around ten or fifteen minutes past three

21    in the afternoon, the commander of the 4th Battalion reported that, at

22    Mount Kuber, an attack was launched against the forces of the Nikola

23    Subic-Zrinjski Brigade.  We had men wounded; some seriously wounded too.

24            After that, I was at the brigade headquarters all the time and I

25    informed my Superior Command about the events of that day and also

Page 28041

 1    international officials who had mediated in the implementation of the

 2    agreement on the ceasefire between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

 3    HVO.

 4       Q.   Let's just clarify one point.  You said that the commander of the

 5    4th Battalion had reported to you.  You are referring to your own 4th

 6    Battalion and its commander, that is to say, belonging to the Nikola

 7    Subic-Zrinjski Brigade; is that right?

 8       A.   Yes, Your Honour, from my own commander within the brigade, that

 9    is to say, that unit which held the front line at Mount Kuber.  As far as

10    I can remember, in that attack, Mr. Dragan Andrijasevic was wounded.  I

11    have seen this in the documents too.

12            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the document

13    under tab 29, the certificate concerning the wounding of Dragan

14    Andrijasevic at Kuber, on the 15th of April.

15       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, you were involved in your own

16    military job, weren't you?

17       A.   Absolutely.

18       Q.   When Colonel Blaskic, and that is an order under tab 31, issued

19    combat orders on the 16th, in the morning, and one of them was addressed

20    to you as well for the preparation of defence, where were you at that

21    point in time?

22       A.   I was at the command, because I had asked for a bed to be prepared

23    there for purposes of rest.

24       Q.   All right.  So you were at the brigade headquarters, weren't you?

25       A.   Yes, yes.

Page 28042

 1       Q.   Tell me, by the way, as commander of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski

 2    Brigade, did you personally have full authority to carry out all necessary

 3    military operations in the area of responsibility of your brigade, that is

 4    to say, on the territory of your brigade, that is to say, within the

 5    territory of the municipality of Busovaca?

 6       A.   Yes, Your Honours, I had authority.  As commander of the brigade,

 7    I had authority to take activities to defend the area in case there was an

 8    attack, and to protect the civilian population.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  I have to put a question to you that also pertains to

10    Ahmici.  We have to hear what you know about this.  Have you ever heard

11    that Colonel Blaskic issued an order concerning Ahmici, on the 16th of

12    April, 1993, that all military-aged men, able-bodied, aged from 16 to 60,

13    should be killed on that day?  Have you ever heard of anything like that?

14       A.   Your Honours, I hear these words for the first time.  Knowing

15    Colonel Tihomir Blaskic, I cannot believe this, nor can I confirm any such

16    thing.

17            JUDGE MAY:  But you yourself weren't there at the time.

18       A.   No.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.

20            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, this is

21    paragraph 49, or 50, rather.  Actually, let me rephrase this question.

22       Q.   Can you tell the Honourable Trial Chamber, from which time, from

23    which period -- or, rather, who held the village of Kovacevac, in the

24    territory of the municipality of Busovaca?

25       A.   Your Honours, during the initial conflicts in January, the units

Page 28043

 1    of the Croat Defence Council prevailed in the Kovacevac location, although

 2    there was a squad of members of the military police that was helping out;

 3    that is to say, we held the locality of Kovacevac under our control

 4    throughout this time.

 5       Q.   When you say "throughout this time," what period are you referring

 6    to?

 7       A.   From the very fall of the village of Kovacevac, that is to say,

 8    from the month of January onwards, until the ceasefire was signed.

 9       Q.   So Kovacevac is in your zone of responsibility; is that right?

10       A.   Yes, that's right.

11       Q.   In April or, rather, on the 16th of April, 1993, was there any

12    fighting in Kovacevac?  And, I'm sorry, was it necessary to engage any

13    additional forces to take Kovacevac?

14       A.   Your Honours, in the locality of Kovacevac, no.

15       Q.   Tell me, please, when we're talking about your job, and we're

16    talking about your job all the time, did Mr. Kordic have any encounters

17    with your soldiers?

18       A.   Absolutely, Your Honours.  Mr. Kordic communicated.  He frequently

19    toured the front line in order to boost morale.  It was exceptionally

20    difficult under those circumstances to endure all of that, to endure all

21    those strains, both physical and mental.

22       Q.   Tell us, please, your soldiers, the majority of the soldiers that

23    you had in the brigade, were they the inhabitants of Busovaca or did they

24    come from the outside?  I'm referring to the municipality of Busovaca.

25       A.   Your Honours, the soldiers in the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade

Page 28044

 1    were from the territory of the municipality of Busovaca.  However, in the

 2    4th Battalion facing Kuber, we also had members who had fled from the area

 3    of Kotor Vares, Jajce, and Dobratici.

 4       Q.   Actually, I wanted to ask you something else but I don't want to

 5    lead you.  So quite a few of your soldiers are inhabitants of Busovaca,

 6    and that's where their families live; is that right?

 7       A.   Absolutely.

 8       Q.   Let us move on to another subject.  Tell us, please - that is

 9    paragraph 51, Your Honours - do you remember any problem or incident

10    related to some convoy on the 28th of April, 1993 or in April 1993?

11       A.   Your Honours, I cannot remember that in April there was any

12    problem with a convoy, but there certainly were such problems before April

13    and also in June and July.

14       Q.   Perhaps it would assist you if I told you that this was allegedly

15    a very big convoy consisting of some 40 vehicles.

16       A.   As far as I know, I do not have such information, nor do I

17    remember any such thing.  I cannot believe that there was such a big

18    convoy, because usually there were two to six, seven vehicles, eight at a

19    maximum.  In the area of Busovaca, I don't remember that.

20       Q.   All right.  If you don't remember that, then we won't pursue the

21    matter further.

22            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I won't be much

23    longer, but I should, nevertheless, like to ask a few questions which have

24    to do with the document Z610.1.  Just a few, and I'll try not to spend too

25    much time on that.

Page 28045

 1       Q.   Brigadier, you had an opportunity to go through this logbook of

 2    the duty officer in the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia.  You had a look

 3    at it after you arrived in The Hague, didn't you?

 4       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  After I arrived in Den Haag, I was shown the

 5    logbook of the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia.

 6       Q.   As a brigade commander, I suppose you also had a kind of -- kept a

 7    kind of record, a kind of logbook, where various observations were written

 8    down, didn't you?  Do I have that right?  Or perhaps I'm wrong.

 9       A.   Quite, Your Honours.  The brigade command itself and all the

10    subordinated units in a brigade had to keep their logs where they recorded

11    their observations in the course of their daily activities; events,

12    incidents, telephone calls, and the like.

13       Q.   Very well.  And did this logbook have to be kept chronologically,

14    that is, from one day to the other, every hour?

15       A.   Yes, absolutely, Your Honours, this logbook had to be kept in a

16    chronological order, and every unit had instructions on how to keep this

17    operations logbook.

18            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we show on the

19    ELMO two pages of the English text of that logbook.  They are pages 41 and

20    42.  I also have them in Croatian for the witness.

21       Q.   When you went through this, there were no markings on it, were

22    there?  There were not these yellow marks that I have put in there; isn't

23    this correct?

24       A.   It is.

25       Q.   Did you personally discover some inconsistency in the dates on

Page 28046

 1    these two pages?

 2       A.   Yes, Your Honours.  It is quite -- it is self-evident.  There is

 3    nothing for me to explain here because it is quite obvious that after the

 4    28th of February, we have the 3rd of March, and then on the next page,

 5    there we have the 1st of March and then the 2nd of March.

 6       Q.   To simplify matters, the dates are upside down, aren't they?

 7       A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  We don't have to go into it any further.  Perhaps,

 9    Brigadier, my last question which we have already asked both our Defence

10    witnesses today:  Do you have a criminal record, Brigadier?

11       A.   Your Honours, I do not have any criminal record, nor was I ever

12    summoned to testify or anything until this moment.

13            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Brigadier, thank you for your

14    answers.  Thank you, Your Honours, I have no further questions.

15            MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16                          Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

17       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Brigadier.  In this case, I

18    defend Mr. Cerkez and I will ask you only a few questions and I should

19    like to invite you to cooperate to the best of your recollection.

20            Brigadier, as the commander of the brigade in the first half of

21    1993, did you have -- did the structure of your brigade envisage a

22    separate police unit?

23       A.   Your Honours, in the brigade, we did not have envisaged a military

24    police platoon until mid-June or, rather, the latter half of June when it

25    was regulated by an order.  I exceptionally well remember that, that an

Page 28047

 1    order should be issued to subordinate to the brigade, the military police

 2    platoons.

 3       Q.   But at the brigade, if I may use that expression, there were,

 4    nevertheless, some military policemen, weren't there?

 5       A.   Your Honours, yes.  And to provide security for the command posts,

 6    to escort, to provide escort when moving, when attending meetings, that

 7    is, for some more important places and travels.

 8       Q.   Brigadier Grubesic, are you aware -- where were the personnel

 9    files of those military policemen kept, that is, those who were attached

10    to the brigade for these -- with these particular assignments, where were

11    they issued with their weapons and which payrolls were they on?

12       A.   Their records were at the military police with its seat in Vitez.

13       Q.   And is it true that these military policemen, who were attached to

14    the brigade, were called, in the vernacular, the Brigade Military Police?

15       A.   Yes.  That's how we referred to them.

16       Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned in your testimony that your brigade had

17    mortars, 82 and 120 millimetres; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.  Six 82-millimetres and four 120-millimetre mortars.

19       Q.   According to your military experience and your expert opinion, the

20    use of 120 mortars, can it be used at some nearby targets or are they used

21    to aim -- to target some targets at a certain distance or as of a certain

22    distance?

23       A.   The 120-millimetre mortars are used for distances up to 4500

24    metres and are used to prevent breakthroughs and to prevent the opposite

25    fire.

Page 28048

 1       Q.   Tell us, Brigadier, on the basis of your experience and your

 2    expert knowledge, which is the least distance, the least range at which

 3    these -- such weapons can be used?

 4       A.   Your Honours, in this conflict, the rules were doubtlessly

 5    violated because the minimum distance is 300 metres, and we were forced to

 6    use them at shorter distances.

 7       Q.   And just one more question on this matter.  Did the use of

 8    mortars, it's possible, in your experience and knowledge, it's possible in

 9    parallel with an infantry attack on a particular position?

10       A.   It is very difficult to fit in to synchronise.

11       Q.   Why?

12       A.   Because one might place in jeopardy one's own, one might place

13    imperil one's own troops.

14            MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

15    Mr. Grubesic.  I have no further questions.

16            MR. SCOTT:  May it please the Court.  Mr. Usher, if you could help

17    by providing the witness with a packet of exhibits that Mr. Naumovski was

18    using, Z421.4.

19                          Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

20       Q.   If we could start by looking at tab -- well, 421.4 itself.  I just

21    want to make sure that we understand your testimony, sir.  If you have the

22    English -- on the second page, for purposes of this question, the first

23    page of the original itself, the Bosnian language version.

24            There's no question, sir, you're not raising, as I take it, if I

25    understand you correctly, any question that that is Dario Kordic's

Page 28049

 1    signature, that a military order was prepared and provided to him for

 2    signature.  You don't dispute that, do you?

 3       A.   Correct.

 4       Q.   And in terms of orders, military orders given by Mr. Kordic, sir,

 5    do you have any personal knowledge of a military order given by Mr. Kordic

 6    that was not carried out?

 7       A.   Your Honours, Mr. Kordic did not issue military orders and he

 8    signed this order as the vice-president of the Croat Community of

 9    Herceg-Bosna.  The consent with the Minister of Defence, as we call him,

10    Mr. Bruno Stojic.

11       Q.   We don't have time in these proceedings, sir, to go through all of

12    the exhibits that might be put in front of you.  If I can represent to

13    you, for the moment, and pose my question this way:  We could put a number

14    of orders, I represent to you, in front of you that appear to be signed by

15    Mr. Kordic like the one I've shown you.  My question is:  Can you tell the

16    Chamber any instance in which your personal knowledge, in which such an

17    order given by Mr. Kordic was not, in fact, executed?

18       A.   Your Honours, I believe I was crystal clear and said that

19    Mr. Kordic did not have military powers, did not have powers, that is, to

20    issue orders and believe me, that on various occasions, this was met with

21    laughter, and I also indicated that in my answers to Mr. Naumovski's

22    questions.

23       Q.   Well -- excuse me.  You said something just now about laughter.

24    My question specifically was, let me rephrase it, did you ever have anyone

25    tell you words to the effect:  I received an order from Dario Kordic, a

Page 28050













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Page 28051

 1    military order from Dario Kordic, but I didn't execute it because, of

 2    course, we all know Mr. Kordic doesn't have any military authority.  Did

 3    you ever have anyone tell you that?

 4       A.   No, nobody told me that except with Mr. Batinic when we commented

 5    with the chief artillery in Operative Zone Central Bosnia that he asked

 6    that an action be conducted against some targets.  But I know Mr. Kordic,

 7    and I know that he does not have much military knowledge or military

 8    experience.  There is a well-known order that the use of artillery weapons

 9    can be ordered only by the commander of the Operative Zone Central Bosnia

10    at the request of the commanders of the units, that is, brigades.

11       Q.   Sir, I'm only going to ask one more question on this and then I'll

12    move on.  My question to you is about the artillery officer you just

13    named.  Did he tell you, and my question to you is not whether there was

14    laughter or not, did he tell you he received orders from Colonel Kordic

15    and he did not execute those orders?

16       A.   Your Honours, I did not -- I mean hear it from him.  All I heard

17    was that he had said, "Dario asked to fire at certain features."  And then

18    laughter ensued for a while.

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Scott, can the witness elaborate on that

20    particular aspect, the laughter?

21            MR. SCOTT:  Certainly.

22       Q.   What do you mean when you say there was laughter in connection

23    with this conversation about Mr. Kordic's artillery order?

24       A.   Your Honours, by -- this laughter was what accompanied his

25    insistence and his request, because we knew who could use the artillery

Page 28052

 1    and at whose request.  Because it was common knowledge in the army

 2    hierarchy how and who uses heavy weaponry.

 3            MR. SCOTT:  Let's -- if I can, Judge Robinson, move on.

 4            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5            MR. SCOTT:

 6       Q.   The problems sir, if you look at tab -- you've indicated in your

 7    direct examination that some of Kordic's actions in this regard were

 8    considered something like interference.  The problem is if you look at a

 9    document such as tab 15, again, we're on Z421.4, if we go to tab 15.  You

10    have documents such as this one from Slavko Marin, and I will represent to

11    you more of a similar nature, asking for the agreement, looking to the

12    second paragraph, "Please inform us whether you agree with the same."

13            Now, do you see something on the face of this document, sir, that

14    Mr. Marin, this was a joke for Mr. Marin or that he was not sincerely

15    asking for Colonel Kordic's agreement to military action?

16       A.   Your Honours, from what I see here, is a duty officer, Mr. Slavko

17    Marin, to my mind, Mr. Blaskic should communicate with Mr. Kordic and deny

18    such actions.

19       Q.   Well, sir, that's your opinion.  Can you tell me -- well, the

20    document speaks for itself.

21            In terms of tab 13, this was an order signed -- purporting to be

22    signed by Blaskic.  You know, sir, don't you, that Colonel Blaskic at that

23    time was in Kiseljak.  He could not have signed an order in Vitez because

24    he was in Kiseljak at the end of January 1993, wasn't he?

25       A.   Yes.  But, Your Honours, it is really -- it was the chief of staff

Page 28053

 1    who signed.

 2       Q.   Well, did he do that with the agreement of Mr. Blaskic or Colonel

 3    Blaskic or do you know?

 4       A.   I am confident that he had to have.  He could not have the

 5    authority of the commander for such orders.

 6       Q.   I'm sorry that he did not have?

 7       A.   Your Honours, when you have this kind of order, the chief of staff

 8    could not but have the consent, the authority of the commander of the

 9    Operative Zone Central Bosnia.

10       Q.   So you'd agree then, sir, that in this particular instance, the

11    fact that there -- someone like Colonel Blaskic, in this instance, was not

12    physically present, doesn't mean that he or any other authority could not

13    issue orders or authorisations by telephone or other communications; isn't

14    that true?

15       A.   He could only give consent to carry out such and such order by

16    telephone, that is, if the commander is absent, then the first man ranking

17    below him had to do it because it had to get the green light if it was to

18    be signed.  And in this case, it is Colonel Blaskic.

19       Q.   Returning for a moment to tab 15, my final question on these

20    documents before moving forward.  Sir, do you have any personal knowledge

21    that Mr. Kordic did not, in fact, give Mr. Marin the agreement that he had

22    asked for?  Do you have any reason to tell us, on personal knowledge, that

23    in fact, Colonel Kordic didn't do exactly as Slavko Marin asked him to do

24    and indicate his agreement with this order?

25       A.   Mr. Marin, in this case, merely communicated with Colonel Blaskic,

Page 28054

 1    with the commander of the Operative Zone Central Bosnia.  And basically,

 2    he did not -- he was not authorised to act by passing over orders except

 3    those which are enclosed.  I don't think that he would be the head of the

 4    operations for a long time.

 5       Q.   Sir, when were you first contacted by anyone working for the

 6    Defence of Mr. Kordic in connection with being a witness in this case?

 7       A.   Your Honours, the communication -- the first communication with

 8    Dario Kordic's lawyer was in 1998; that is, we simply met.  And a month

 9    and a half ago we were together in the area of Busovaca and talked about

10    whether I would come to testify if such a need arose, and I gave my

11    consent.

12       Q.   Between 1998 and approximately a month and a half ago, did you

13    have any other contact with anyone on behalf of Mr. Kordic concerning his

14    defence?

15       A.   I do not recall such contact, and the first contact was in the

16    case of Mr. Nobilo's.

17       Q.   Can you tell us, sir, what steps did you take, if any, to prepare

18    to testify today?  Did you review any documents?  Do you have a personal

19    journal?  Did you do anything to prepare yourself for coming to testify to

20    this Chamber?

21       A.   Your Honours, when I came here, that was the first time that I

22    took the documents and papers to inspect them, to see them, and to gain

23    additional knowledge to what I already was aware of.  Before that, I did

24    not have -- nor did I have any source which I could use to prepare myself,

25    nor did I know the thesis about which the case could be conducted, at

Page 28055

 1    least not in great detail.

 2       Q.   Sir, touching briefly on paragraph 4 of your statement, you

 3    mention receiving training in Croatia for six months.  Approximately when

 4    was that?

 5       A.   Your Honours, the training -- I attended this commanding school,

 6    the officers' school, in 1996, between August 1996 until the end of July

 7    1997.  I went there from the post of the head of the chief of staff of the

 8    brigade and I went back to become the deputy commander of the 3rd Guards

 9    Brigade.

10       Q.   Moving on, I have a few minutes to touch on a few things before

11    the end of the day.  The flag-raising incident in February that you've

12    been asked about, sir, in paragraph 34, you say you dimly recall this, and

13    in paragraph 35, your testimony essentially is that you never heard

14    information that Mr. Kordic had a role.

15            Sir, I put it to you that you really have no knowledge, no

16    personal information about this matter at all, do you?

17       A.   No, Your Honours.  During the briefing that we had in the command

18    of the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia, that is, when I communicated with

19    the chief of staff, I was told that during the night it had been taken off

20    by the members of the security of Vitez with the approval of Colonel

21    Blaskic.  But I know that Mr. Kordic definitely had nothing to do with it,

22    unless --

23       Q.   Well, sir, that's not what you said in your statement.  And before

24    we get to that, you say you dimly recall, and then ultimately, in the

25    latter part of paragraph 34, you say, "cannot remember anything clear."

Page 28056

 1    Now, did you write this?  Is this your testimony?  Was this your statement

 2    that you prepared or did somebody else put those words -- suggest those

 3    words to you?

 4       A.   Your Honours, I'm aware of what I said.  I am aware, and I made my

 5    statement, that is, I prepared my statement with some support, that is,

 6    guidelines by the lawyers.

 7       Q.   And what --

 8       A.   But --

 9       Q.   I'm sorry.  What kind of guidelines did you receive from the

10    lawyers about your testimony?

11       A.   I was shown a large part of documents to go through and the thesis

12    which might be in this case.

13       Q.   Well, what thesis?  Were you suggested -- were you given a thesis

14    that your testimony should follow?

15       A.   Well, it wasn't really suggested to me.  The theses were roughly

16    outlined to me.

17       Q.   Well, such as?  Sir, if I can put it -- let me rephrase my

18    question.  Was it put to you that you should come here and the thesis was

19    to say whatever was necessary; to essentially say that Mr. Kordic had no

20    role in these matters, that he had no military power, and that's basically

21    what you should come here and say.  Is that what was put to you in so many

22    words?

23       A.   Your Honours, that was not put to me in those words.  What I was

24    told was that it would be necessary for me to come and testify, which I

25    had already accepted a month and a half ago.  And when I arrived here, I

Page 28057

 1    was given the thesis, such as January 1993, my CV, details from the date

 2    of my birth to my place of residence, education, military schools, duties,

 3    and that is how I wrote it all down; such as April 1993, convoys.

 4    Basically, that is it.  Had to do with the general, but that was largely

 5    six, seven, or even eight years, and I used as many documents as were

 6    available to me.

 7       Q.   Now, if I could --

 8            JUDGE MAY:  It's about time.  It may be that there's a problem

 9    with -- not a problem but a difficulty arising from the translation.

10    "Thesis" has a particular meaning in English but it sounds as though the

11    witness is talking about subjects.

12            MR. SCOTT:  I absolutely allow for that, Your Honour.  I had a

13    couple of follow-up questions.  That's a distinct possibility.  But we can

14    finish on that topic in the morning, unless the Chamber wants to finish it

15    now.

16            MR. SAYERS:  If I might clarify, Your Honour - sorry for jumping

17    in - apparently the word in Croatian, according to my Croatian-speaking

18    colleague here, is "theme" not "thesis."

19            JUDGE MAY:  Well, that may explain it.

20            Mr. Scott, how long do you think you will be tomorrow?

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22            MR. SCOTT:  Sorry.  The witness was forecast with

23    cross-examination being a full day and we've just started, so I think it

24    will take the morning, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE MAY:  Perhaps you could have a look at it overnight with a

Page 28058

 1    view to restricting that.

 2            MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  And then we can -- there are some housekeeping matters

 4    we've got to deal with.  There's outstanding the Kordic documents.

 5            Mr. Sayers, if you would get that into order for us tomorrow,

 6    please, we can look at that.

 7            MR. SAYERS:  Yes, indeed.  And may I just say, Mr. President, just

 8    on a tangent, I apologise for zeal surpassing courtesy earlier today and

 9    I've communicated my apologies to the Prosecution.

10            JUDGE MAY:  No need for apologies.

11            The next matter is there's a motion which we've received from the

12    Prosecution about adjudicated facts.  I don't know if the Defence have had

13    it yet.  No need for a written response; we can deal with it orally.

14            MR. SAYERS:  Might I suggest, Mr. President, if it's acceptable to

15    the Trial Chamber, we could just deal with that in our final submissions.

16            JUDGE MAY:  I'm not sure that we need to go that far, but we'll

17    talk about that tomorrow.

18            I don't know if there are any other outstanding matters.  We've

19    got to rule on the two bundles of exhibits which we haven't ruled on, but

20    we will do that during the remainder of the week.

21            MR. NICE:  Nothing else outstanding.  All I know is that in order

22    for -- we want our documents that we serve on Wednesday to be as complete

23    as they can be, and therefore, from an entirely selfish point of view, the

24    sooner we can know about the documents, obviously, the better, because

25    otherwise it's going to be very difficult to have those new documents

Page 28059

 1    integrated.  But I understand entirely the pressure that's on the

 2    Chamber.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  And, Mr. Mikulicic, you've got three witnesses,

 4    haven't you, as I recollect.

 5            MR. MIKULICIC:  In fact, Your Honour, we have only two.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Two.  When do you think they'll be here?

 7            MR. MIKULICIC:  I think we can manage them throughout tomorrow

 8    afternoon.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We'll see how we get on.  If we can, so

10    much the better.  We'll adjourn now.

11            Brigadier Grubesic, could you be back, please, at half past nine

12    tomorrow morning to conclude your evidence.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.05 p.m.,

15                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of

16                          December, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.










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