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  1. 1 Friday, 23rd April, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.46 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

    8 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.


    11 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    12 Examined by Mr. Nice:

    13 Q. Mr. Cicak, we will continue with the

    14 documentary exhibits. Exhibit 12, please. As I

    15 forecast yesterday, a document that won't take up much

    16 time, but a document of reference.

    17 From yesterday, if you could separate the one

    18 from the other, please, Mr. Usher. Lay the English

    19 version on the ELMO.

    20 This is a document, Mr. Cicak, dated the 23rd

    21 of August, being a proposal for the regionalisation of

    22 the municipal committees of the Croatian Democratic

    23 Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina, said to be pursuant to

    24 conclusions of the main committee on the 6th of August,

    25 the goal said to be to establish closest possible links

  2. 1 amongst the committees on a territorial basis and

    2 thereby to promote the preconditions for the political

    3 and territorial linking of the Croatian people for

    4 which special programmes will have to be designed.

    5 That's how it sets out at the beginning.

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Under the regional committees, number 1 is

    8 the Travnik region, with nine municipalities listed,

    9 and we can see those for ourselves.

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. This document is signed by Kostroman only.

    12 Did you know anything about the establishment of these

    13 regional committees?

    14 A. Regarding the establishment of regional

    15 committees in Central Bosnia and the region of

    16 Herzegovina, I was aware of that, but not about the

    17 other details. This was written by Mr. Kostroman

    18 probably on the basis of a decision by the main board,

    19 though it is not stated that that is an abstract from

    20 that document.

    21 Q. Thank you. The next exhibit is Exhibit 14, a

    22 document from the Croatian Democratic Union of

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, municipal organisation of Busovaca,

    24 dated the 29th of August, said to be a decision on the

    25 functioning of the municipal organisation.

  3. 1 At the foot of the first English page and

    2 Article 2 in the original, please, "The decision to

    3 change the functioning of the municipal HDZ B and H

    4 organisation in Busovaca to exceptional or wartime

    5 conditions shall be made by the executive board of the

    6 municipal HDZ BH board in Busovaca at its special

    7 session."

    8 Then Article 3: "After the decision is made

    9 to change the functioning to exceptional or wartime

    10 conditions, the executive board of the municipal HDZ

    11 B and H board shall become the command of the municipal

    12 HDZ BH organisation in Busovaca in exceptional or

    13 wartime conditions. The president of the municipal HDZ

    14 B and H organisation in Busovaca shall become the

    15 commander, and his assistants, the deputy presidents,

    16 secretaries, and treasurer shall have the same post in

    17 the command. Presidents of the HDZ BH branches shall

    18 become branch commanders. The HDZ B and H command in

    19 Busovaca shall work jointly in exception or wartime

    20 conditions on the basis of actual or free estimate of

    21 the exceptional or wartime conditions, all with the

    22 goal of protecting the lives and property of Croatian

    23 citizens."

    24 Were you aware of the making of this order or

    25 of the making of this decision?

  4. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Were you a party to the making of this

    3 decision?

    4 A. I was.

    5 Q. In whom did this decision vest power; which

    6 individuals?

    7 A. The greatest power was given to the president

    8 of the municipal board of the HDZ of Busovaca.

    9 Q. Did you agree to that happening at the time?

    10 A. Could I agree or not is not relevant, because

    11 the situation was such that it was impossible to change

    12 anything.

    13 Q. And, of course, the president at the time was

    14 who?

    15 A. The president at the time was Mr. Dario

    16 Kordic, and he was vested with the greatest powers in

    17 exceptional and wartime conditions that set in the

    18 territory of Busovaca municipality or, rather, in the

    19 territory of the regional community and Bosnia and

    20 Herzegovina as a whole or, rather, each president was

    21 vested with such powers, if there were such decisions

    22 in other municipal boards of the HDZ in

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    24 Q. Looking at Article 13, please, reading as

    25 follows: "All the sessions of the command of the

  5. 1 municipal HDZ B and H organisation in Busovaca and the

    2 sessions of the Security Council of HDZ B and H in

    3 Busovaca shall be held in secret and without the

    4 presence of public. All written documentation of the

    5 command of the municipal organisation and the Security

    6 Council of the HDZ B and H in Busovaca shall be

    7 strictly controlled, strictly confidential, and not

    8 available to the public."

    9 Article 14, "The release of information to

    10 the press shall be made only by the command of the

    11 municipal HDZ B and H organisation in Busovaca."

    12 So there was that restriction on publicity on

    13 any occasion when these articles were effective; is

    14 that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And who was to determine when these powers

    17 came into operation?

    18 A. I don't understand the question.

    19 Q. Who was able to determine when these

    20 exceptional circumstances were such that these

    21 provisions were effective? Which person or body

    22 determined --

    23 A. The body was the municipal board of the HDZ

    24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Busovaca.

    25 Q. Thank you very much. If we look at the last

  6. 1 page of the document, we see that this one is signed,

    2 or there's a place for a signature. No signature

    3 itself, but the name is Dario Kordic.

    4 Yes? Thank you.

    5 A. I'm not getting any translation.

    6 Q. I'm so sorry. I said at the end of the

    7 document, is there a place -- can you hear me?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. At the end of the document there is a place

    10 for the signature of Dario Kordic, but in fact, no

    11 actual signature?

    12 A. There's no signature. A sentence has been

    13 added, that the decision was adopted at a meeting of

    14 the municipal board of the HDZ in Busovaca on the 29th

    15 of August, 1991. I'm not sure that Mr. Kordic did not

    16 sign this decision.

    17 Q. Thank you very much.

    18 MR. NICE: The next exhibit is Exhibit 16,

    19 please.

    20 A. I have another question.

    21 Q. No, I'm finished the questions in relation to

    22 that.

    23 MR. NICE: I'm not sure -- maybe the witness

    24 is wanting to say something. I'm not quite sure.

    25 Q. Is there something you want to say,

  7. 1 Mr. Cicak, or are you waiting for another question from

    2 me?

    3 A. No, I just wanted to say that no one, and

    4 especially Mr. Dario Kordic, abided by this decision,

    5 because it is stated here that all decisions regarding

    6 a state of war or exceptional circumstances should be

    7 taken by the municipal board. The municipal board

    8 never met to take any such decision. All decisions

    9 were taken by Mr. Dario Kordic.

    10 Q. Thank you.

    11 MR. NICE: Exhibit 16, please.

    12 Q. From the Croatian Democratic Union of Bosnia

    13 and Herzegovina, the Security Council, marked "Strictly

    14 Confidential" and dated the 18th of September of 1991,

    15 being the conclusions of the Security Council at its

    16 session on that date, and in paragraph 1 of the

    17 conclusions, it says that "The Security Council will

    18 from now on be called the crisis staff," with the

    19 following members, and it identifies Kljuic, Boban,

    20 others, including Kostroman, Bozidar Skravan, Bozo

    21 Rajic, and Bruno Stojic.

    22 It sets out, three paragraphs thereafter,

    23 that the president of the crisis staff is Kljuic and

    24 the vice-president is Boban. And then, at paragraph 5,

    25 please, it says: "Stjepan Kljuic is required

  8. 1 immediately to contact the leadership of the SDA/Party

    2 of Democratic Action/ and to seek a political

    3 declaration from them, but the crisis staff shall

    4 develop plans of action both with and without the SDA,

    5 and shall undertake concrete measures for this

    6 purpose."

    7 At paragraph 8, there was the recommendation

    8 to the municipalities that they should not send

    9 recruits to the army, and that no mobilisation be

    10 permitted except for mobilisation carried out through

    11 the HDZ crisis staffs.

    12 We can see that this order or decision comes

    13 over the signature of -- signatures of Kostroman and

    14 Kljuic. Were you aware of these decisions or not?

    15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    16 but going on to your question about this decision, I

    17 should like to learn from the witness, through you, if

    18 there is a relationship between the previous document

    19 and the document we are reviewing now, because in the

    20 previous document the head of the Security Council --

    21 it is the document Z14, and the one we're looking at

    22 now is Z16.

    23 In Z14, on which you have asked questions,

    24 mention is made of the formation of a Security Council

    25 in Busovaca, and then we see the same Security Council

  9. 1 in the next document with, at the head, the Croatian

    2 Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is it the same

    3 Security Council that is being referred to in both

    4 documents? That is my question, so that the Chamber is

    5 able to follow more closely the proceedings.

    6 MR. NICE:

    7 Q. You've heard the question of Judge Bennouna,

    8 Mr. Cicak, but is the position this, that document Z14

    9 is the HDZ for the municipal organisation in Busovaca,

    10 whereas 16 is the Croatian Democratic Union of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina itself? Is that the position?

    12 A. Yes, and would you be so kind as to give me

    13 the date when the document in Busovaca was adopted?

    14 Q. That was on the 29th of August, 1991.

    15 A. I think that Your Honours now have insight

    16 into the fact that we preceded the presidency of the

    17 HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the document adopted in

    18 Busovaca preceded the document that was adopted in

    19 Sarajevo. So the document in Sarajevo came later, and

    20 it has no connection with the document adopted in

    21 Busovaca.

    22 Q. But of course the crisis staff composition

    23 for the party as a whole, as formulated in Sarajevo, is

    24 different, of course, from the formulation of the

    25 crisis staff in the locality of Busovaca?

  10. 1 A. Indeed. It is only normal that it should

    2 differ, because this is a crisis staff or, rather, the

    3 transfer of the presidency of the Croatian Democratic

    4 Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina into a crisis staff

    5 covering the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas in

    6 Busovaca we are talking about the municipal

    7 organisation of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina for

    8 Busovaca.

    9 MR. NICE: I hope that clarifies the matter

    10 for Your Honour.

    11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    12 The decision of the 29th of August, 1991, in Busovaca,

    13 did it prepare the decision taken at the level of the

    14 whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Did it prepare the

    15 decision of the 18th of September, 1991?

    16 MR. NICE:

    17 Q. You've heard the Judge's question, Mr. Cicak;

    18 are you able to help with an answer to that?

    19 A. Absolutely not. That was not in preparation

    20 for this decision at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    21 The decision in Busovaca was taken prior to the other

    22 decision, and the two are not connected.

    23 Q. Thank you very much.

    24 MR. NICE: May we move now then, please, to

    25 Exhibit 18. Again, this is a document from the party

  11. 1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.

    2 JUDGE MAY: If these are core bundle

    3 documents, Mr. Nice, if you would --

    4 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry.

    5 JUDGE MAY: -- let us know that, as you did

    6 yesterday.

    7 MR. NICE: I did yesterday. Could I give you

    8 the numbers of the ones I've dealt with?

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    10 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry to have overlooked

    11 that. While they're being distributed, the numbers of

    12 the first one, Z12, were pages 5803 -- I'm only giving

    13 you the first page number, of course -- and the number

    14 of Z14 was 5799. The number of 16 was 5786, and the

    15 number of this document, Z18, is 5782.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

    17 MR. NICE:

    18 Q. This document, then, dated the 8th of October

    19 and coming from the presidency of the party as a whole,

    20 or its crisis staff, said to be conclusions of a joint

    21 meeting held on the 8th of October, has at paragraph 3

    22 of the conclusions that "The Croatian people of Bosnia

    23 and Herzegovina is called upon to reject all calls for

    24 mobilisation, recruitment, and financing of the army."

    25 And at paragraph 4, this: "The Croatian

  12. 1 Democratic Union of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall

    2 continue to advocate an independent and indivisible

    3 Bosnia and Herzegovina if that is possible, but in the

    4 event of the break-up of Bosnia and Herzegovina our

    5 recommendation to the leaders of the Muslim people is

    6 after the secession of the so-called Serbian

    7 territories in Bosnia and Herzegovina that the Muslims

    8 remain together with the Croats territorially, and that

    9 we link our territories with the Republics of Croatia

    10 and Slovenia confederally or by treaty."

    11 Q. Mr. Cicak, first of all, were you ever aware

    12 of the decision that's set out here?

    13 A. Yes, I was aware of this decision. I learnt

    14 about it somewhat later because I was personally

    15 informed about it by the president of the Croatian

    16 Democratic Union, Mr. Stjepan Kljuic.

    17 Next question?

    18 Q. And what do you say as to the proposed

    19 linking of the territories with Croatia and Slovenia?

    20 A. Allow me first to answer the question

    21 regarding point 3. This was the general position of

    22 the Croatian people not to respond to calls for

    23 mobilisation, recruitment, and financing of the BH army

    24 or, rather, the JNA army, because the JNA had already

    25 conducted an attack against the Republic of Croatia and

  13. 1 Slovenia. So it was only normal to reject any

    2 connections with the JNA army because

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- or, rather, the Croatian people

    4 believed that was essential.

    5 As for point 4, it typically reflects the

    6 position of the presidency of the Croatian Democratic

    7 Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is to continue to

    8 advocate an indivisible Bosnia-Herzegovina with all

    9 peoples living in it on an equal footing, but in the

    10 event of a break-up, which was already a manifest

    11 tendency, the Bosniak people is called upon here --

    12 though they are called the Muslims in this text -- to

    13 stay together with the Croats in one entity and then to

    14 try to establish confederal or contractual relations

    15 with the Republic of Croatia.

    16 I do not understand -- I don't think anyone

    17 can understand -- why the Republic of Slovenia is

    18 mentioned here, because it has no geographic, ethnic,

    19 or any other connections. Whether this was an error or

    20 whether it really was considered at the time, I don't

    21 know, but when I was reading through this document, I

    22 understood what it aspired for, but what was essential

    23 for me was that the presidency sought to preserve

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina as an indivisible entity, and the

    25 call for unity with the Republic of Croatia was simply

  14. 1 in the interest of defence against threats coming

    2 against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    3 Q. Thank you.

    4 MR. NICE: The next exhibit is Z20 -- no, I'm

    5 so sorry; Z19. Core bundle page 5776.

    6 Q. You may or may not be able to help us with

    7 this. It's a single sheet, as presented, with the

    8 English translation on the reverse of the photocopy of

    9 the hand-written original. Looking at the hand-written

    10 original, have you ever seen this document before,

    11 other than seeing it here at court?

    12 A. This is a document I have not seen before,

    13 and I cannot say what it relates to.

    14 Q. Insofar as there may be reference to monies

    15 coming to Busovaca, were you aware of whether monies

    16 came to the party in Busovaca, and if so, how?

    17 A. There were two ways that monies arrived in

    18 Busovaca. The first was direct financing of the needs

    19 of the HDZ from the Republic of Croatia, that is,

    20 directly from Zagreb. Another way of money coming in

    21 was from the sale of weapons, which was coming to

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina free of charge and was being sold at

    23 a high price to HDZ members who could afford to buy

    24 them.

    25 Of course, what happened was that poor people

  15. 1 would sell a part of their own property. I don't know

    2 how the interpreters are going to translate this. They

    3 would sell livestock to be able to procure automatic

    4 weapons.

    5 So my assumption, and it is just an

    6 assumption, so please don't take note of it, that this

    7 was simply a bill being shown to Mr. Kordic for monies

    8 received, but please don't take this officially.

    9 Q. The money coming from Zagreb, who brought it?

    10 A. The main link between the HDZ of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the part that split from

    12 Mr. Kljuic, was linked to Mr. Mate Boban, and Mr. Mate

    13 Boban was the main link between Zagreb and this part of

    14 Bosnia, the so-called Travnik region and the whole of

    15 Herzegovina or, rather, all the HDZ organisations in

    16 Herzegovina who were linked to Mr. Mate Boban. He was

    17 the undisputed chief in all these things, especially

    18 when it came to finance.

    19 Q. Did money come in cash or in some other form?

    20 A. Would you speak a little more loudly,

    21 please?

    22 Q. Did it come in cash or in some other form?

    23 A. I wasn't implying you but the interpreters.

    24 Q. That's fine.

    25 A. The money came in two forms, in cash and in

  16. 1 weapons.

    2 Q. When it came in cash, did you see it arrive

    3 or did you just learn of its coming?

    4 A. I didn't learn about it, but I saw it in

    5 person, because on one occasion I had the opportunity

    6 to be in Mr. Boban's company when he gave a certain sum

    7 of money for the basic organisation in Vares or,

    8 rather, the municipal HDZ organisation in Vares.

    9 Q. Can you remember what quantity of money was

    10 involved on that occasion?

    11 A. Money was never counted, and the amount of

    12 money was never important for Mr. Boban.

    13 Q. That's fine. Thank you very much.

    14 Let's move on to the next exhibit, 20,

    15 please, core document page 5774, this being a document

    16 of the party at the Croatian Regional Community of

    17 Travnik level, as described, dated the 4th of November,

    18 the subject being simply the meeting, your name being

    19 listed beside "Busovaca," along with others, including

    20 Dario Kordic. In the conclusions, at paragraph 1, it's

    21 stated that Stjepan Kljuic was not present, although

    22 he had been duly and timely invited to the meeting.

    23 At paragraph 2, conclusion number, and then

    24 it reads "02-POV - 1/91," "OD 20" -- of the 22nd of

    25 October, 1991, "sent to Dr. Franjo Tudjman, was

  17. 1 unanimously supported. Members of the Croatian

    2 Regional Community of Travnik promise to respect the

    3 secrecy of this information."

    4 You were listed as being present at this

    5 meeting. Were you present?

    6 A. Yes, I was present.

    7 Q. Can you help at all with the confidential and

    8 secret communication sent to Zagreb, to Tudjman?

    9 A. Yes. I don't know why this was called

    10 secret, but at the time we probably thought this was

    11 necessary because of the police and other military

    12 intelligence organisations that probably existed in

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So this letter was a secret one,

    14 although it could have been public.

    15 It said the following: That young men would

    16 voluntarily take part in the defence of the Republic of

    17 Croatia and that they would volunteer to go to the

    18 Republic of Croatia to defend it from the aggressor.

    19 On the other hand, it said that the Croatian community

    20 or, rather, the Democratic Croatian Community of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, would make every effort to give

    22 humanitarian and military assistance to the Republic of

    23 Croatia.

    24 At that time, there were drives to collect

    25 clothes and everything else that is needed when a

  18. 1 country is attacked and when another country should

    2 help it. At the time in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there

    3 was not a war there, but it was obvious that it would

    4 start soon.

    5 Q. The next exhibit, please, Exhibit 21, 1, but

    6 it is in the core bundle at page 5767.

    7 Mr. Cicak, the original is not very easy to

    8 read, but I'll read it in the English, and if you can

    9 follow it, I would be grateful.

    10 Is this a document, dated the 5th of November

    11 of 1991, headed "The Travnik Regional Committee of the

    12 Party," relating to a written response to Mr. Kljuic's

    13 inappropriate ultimatum to Mr. Kordic? And just before

    14 we read the body of the letter, in the postscript at

    15 the end, it being set out that he was sending, that is,

    16 Mr. Kordic was sending a copy of this fax, addressed to

    17 Mr. Kljuic, to all representatives of the Travnik

    18 Regional Community of the party. Did you receive a

    19 copy of this letter?

    20 A. The letter was discussed within the municipal

    21 committee in Busovaca.

    22 Q. Thank you. It reads, "Following our

    23 telephone conversation on the 5th of November around

    24 11.30 hours when I was put through to you by

    25 General-Secretary Ivan Markesic and when you told me in

  19. 1 a 30-second speech, and I quote, 'Kordic, if you do not

    2 appear in my office tomorrow at 8 o'clock, you will be

    3 brought in by the police,' I'm sending you the

    4 following response.

    5 "By the time you received this fax, you will

    6 probably be familiar with the written conclusions

    7 reached at the meeting of the Travnik Regional

    8 Community held in Busovaca on 4th November, fully

    9 supporting all the clear and unambiguous positions of

    10 the Travnik Regional Community.

    11 "As we no longer live in a time of

    12 uniformity of view and blind obedience, I feel

    13 compelled to remind you that your position as president

    14 in the Bosnia HDZ implicitly carries the obligation of

    15 living and acting among the party membership and

    16 respecting the wish of the responsible representatives

    17 of the Croats of this area, that you finally attend at

    18 least one meeting of the Travnik Regional Community. I

    19 wish to inform you that the most responsible Croatian

    20 representatives of the municipalities of the Travnik

    21 Regional Community have not given me the authority to

    22 speak with you personally and particularly not

    23 tête-à-tête about the fate of our people, but if you

    24 insist, with inappropriate threats and ultimatums on a

    25 meeting, it may take place, but only with all the

  20. 1 leaders of the Travnik Regional Community in Busovaca."

    2 Did you know in advance, Mr. Cicak, that that

    3 letter was going to be sent?

    4 A. I knew that the letter would be sent because

    5 we had discussed it at the municipal committee meeting

    6 of the HDZ of Busovaca. The point was that the

    7 president of the HDZ of BH, Stjepan Kljuic, was busy

    8 at the state presidency, and it was very difficult for

    9 him to attend all meetings at regional communities and

    10 at local levels. That is one thing.

    11 Another thing is that the Croatian Regional

    12 Community of Travnik, in relation to the BH HDZ, was

    13 getting stronger and stronger, and that was the

    14 objective of this document. It is quite inconceivable

    15 that a member of a municipal committee, who was at a

    16 far lower level of the president of the HDZ, addresses

    17 the president of the party in this way. I mean this is

    18 not customary in the world.

    19 Q. And, of course, and I take you back to the

    20 document, the last document we looked at, which

    21 reflected a meeting at which you attended, had Dario

    22 Kordic signing as president of the Croatian Regional

    23 Community of Travnik. Do you recall that?

    24 A. You mean this document that we've just been

    25 discussing?

  21. 1 Q. The previous document.

    2 A. The letter? Your Honours --

    3 Q. Forget this question, Mr. Cicak, because I

    4 can deal with it with the next exhibit. Thank you.

    5 Exhibit 22, please.

    6 A. Yes, I see the signature of Dario Kordic here

    7 on this letter. I don't know what we are talking

    8 about.

    9 Q. Core document page 5765, could the Tribunal,

    10 please, and my friends opposite, note that on the

    11 English version, the first half dozen lines, which

    12 begin "Annex 16" and goes down to what looks like a

    13 horizontal line, can be deleted. They aren't part of

    14 the original document. They are some other

    15 annotation. So the document starts from "Herzegovina

    16 Regional Community, Travnik Regional Community," and

    17 it's the conclusions of the joint meeting of the

    18 Herzegovina Regional Community and the Travnik Regional

    19 Community.

    20 And before we come to the conclusions,

    21 Mr. Cicak, would you please turn to the end of the

    22 document and to where you can find the signatures?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And are these documents signed by Boban, on

    25 behalf of Herzegovina, and Dario Kordic, as president

  22. 1 of the Travnik Regional Community?

    2 A. I haven't got the signature here. This

    3 document was not signed by Mate Boban. And the

    4 signature of Mr. Dario Kordic is among the signatures

    5 of the participants in this meeting, but not as a

    6 signatory of the document, which is quite customary,

    7 because I do not see any reason why he would sign it.

    8 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, I can see

    9 there's a problem about the subscript of this document,

    10 and I'll deal with that. It may be that there's a

    11 better version of the original from which the

    12 translation was taken. But for the time being, the

    13 subscript and signatures on the English version must be

    14 queried until I can replace it with a better original.

    15 Q. The conclusions read as follows:

    16 Number 1, picking it up about three lines in,

    17 "... continue to support the unanimously-approved

    18 declarations and conclusions adopted in the agreements

    19 with President Franjo Tudjman on the 13th and 20th of

    20 June of 1991 in Zagreb."

    21 At the end of that paragraph is there set out

    22 that, "the communities jointly and unanimously adopt

    23 the decision that the Croatian people in Bosnia and

    24 Herzegovina must finally institute a decisive and

    25 active policy in order to bring about our age-old dream

  23. 1 - a common Croatian state."

    2 And the next paragraph goes on to say, "In

    3 order for this historical goal to become our reality in

    4 the near future, the two regional communities call for

    5 the formulation and declaration of legal and political

    6 documents (the proclamation of a Croatian banovina or

    7 entity in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the organisation of a

    8 referendum to join the Republic of Croatia...) as the

    9 initial phase leading towards the final solution of the

    10 Croatian question and the creation of a sovereign

    11 Croatia within its ethnic and historical (currently

    12 possible) borders."

    13 Can you help us in two ways, please,

    14 Mr. Cicak?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. First, as to the alleged agreements of the

    17 13th and 20th of June, 1991, made with Dr. Franjo

    18 Tudjman in Zagreb, can you help us with what they were?

    19 A. I cannot tell you anything about these

    20 agreements because I was not in the presence of

    21 Mr. Franjo Tudjman, and that was a group of Bosnian

    22 Croats that was present there at Mr. Franjo Tudjman's.

    23 Later on, I found out about the details that were being

    24 discussed, but it is precisely this part that was

    25 discussed, the one that relates to this text from

  24. 1 paragraph 2, item 1; that is to say, that the creation

    2 of a single banovina was discussed. Rather, this was a

    3 historic aspiration of the Croatian people, to have the

    4 Croatian banovina established once again. And that was

    5 the banovina that Mr. Macek had worked on before the

    6 Second World War, and this banovina was then

    7 established. So the aspiration was to have it renewed

    8 in 1991.

    9 As for all these other political enactments

    10 that were passed in this regard, the general conclusion

    11 was that all municipal committees and at the regional

    12 community of Travnik, that a struggle had to be waged

    13 for a pure Croatian territory which could be annexed.

    14 But no one said in which form that was important, but

    15 that would be annexed to the Republic of Croatia.

    16 That was the basic objective of this

    17 document, and we had discussed it for a very long

    18 time.

    19 Q. Was this an approach to which you gave any

    20 support, yourself?

    21 A. No. This was an approach that was supported

    22 by the regional community of the Croatian Democratic

    23 Union of Travnik and the municipal committee -- or,

    24 rather, the president of the municipal committee of

    25 Busovaca or the vice-president of the Croatian Regional

  25. 1 Community of Travnik, Mr. Dario Kordic. This is a

    2 total deviation from the policy of the Croatian

    3 Democratic Union of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    4 that was led by Mr. Stjepan Kljuic.

    5 Q. Thank you.

    6 MR. NICE: The next exhibit is not in the

    7 core bundle; it's 25.1 -- no, I beg your pardon, it is

    8 5755, although in the formulation that you will have,

    9 that number doesn't appear. Or it may do, but it

    10 doesn't appear in mine.

    11 This is dated the 15th of November, from the

    12 Croatian-Herzegovinian Travnik regional union, and

    13 signed, or with a place for a signature, with the name

    14 "Dario Kordic," and in fact, if you look at the

    15 original signature there, just visible, it reads --

    16 A. What document are you talking about?

    17 Q. I'm looking at the original, the photocopy of

    18 the original. And at the foot of --

    19 A. It's a very poor photocopy.

    20 Could you please show this to the Prosecutor

    21 and ask him whether this is the document that he's

    22 discussing?

    23 Q. Yes, and if you just look where the usher

    24 will place his thumb, you will find a signature at the

    25 foot of the page.

  26. 1 A. Put your thumb there, please.

    2 Could you have found an even poorer copy?

    3 Q. If you would look, please, at the body of the

    4 text, does it read as follows: The subject is "Reply

    5 to the proposed initiative for holding a separate

    6 meeting of the Croatian Travnik regional union from the

    7 municipalities of Vitez, Travnik, and Novi Travnik."

    8 And does it read: "Certain leaders of the municipality

    9 and the HDZ from the above mentioned municipalities,

    10 after my return from the joint regional meeting of

    11 Herzegovina and the Travnik regional union in Grude on

    12 12 November where the unanimous attitude of the

    13 Croatian people from all the 26 municipalities dated 13

    14 and 20 June, i.e. all documents signed 15 and 22

    15 October were confirmed, sent a request to me personally

    16 to call a session of the Travnik regional union to be

    17 held in Travnik. I have, in principle, agreed to this

    18 meeting provided that, in addition to Mr. Kljuic and

    19 his closest assistants, it also be attended by the most

    20 responsible leaders from Zagreb and the Herzegovina

    21 municipalities."

    22 Mr. Cicak, was there any need, in your

    23 judgement, for the attendance of leaders from Zagreb for

    24 meetings of the Travnik regional union?

    25 A. There would be an answer that has two parts.

  27. 1 If the Croatian Democratic Union of Herceg-Bosna is an

    2 independent organisation, an independent political

    3 organisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, if that is the way

    4 we see things, then there is no need for the

    5 representatives of the Croatian Democratic Union of

    6 Croatia to come to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    7 Secondly, if we believe that the aspiration

    8 of the regional community of Travnik, of the Croatian

    9 Democratic Union and the entire regional community of

    10 Herzegovina is to be annexed to the HDZ of Croatia,

    11 then it was necessary for people to come from Croatia

    12 and to present their ideological, political, and other

    13 positions at the time.

    14 At that time, this was considered necessary

    15 for Bosnia-Herzegovina. In this case, this meant a

    16 division of the Croatian Democratic Union of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina into two parts.

    18 Q. Thank you.

    19 MR. NICE: Exhibit 39, please.

    20 Q. Core bundle page 5751, this being a letter,

    21 typed letter from Dario Kordic, deputy president of the

    22 Croatian Union of Herceg-Bosna, president of the

    23 municipal board of the HDZ in Busovaca, addressed to

    24 the presidency of HZ Herceg-Bosna, president Mate

    25 Boban, deputy president Bozo Rajic, secretary Ignac

  28. 1 Kostroman, and to all the leaders of the HZ

    2 Herceg-Bosna Croatian Union, the Bosanska Posavina.

    3 The subject, resignation of the post of deputy

    4 president of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    5 It reads: "I am writing this resignation

    6 from the honourable post of Deputy President of the HZ

    7 Herceg-Bosna, as the legitimate representative of the

    8 Croatian people" -- at some time -- "and 50 minutes on

    9 25 January immediately after the close of the Assembly

    10 session.

    11 "An honest feeling of belonging to the

    12 united Croatian people and several months of personal

    13 modest contribution to establishing the internationally

    14 recognised Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna in the

    15 Croatian Travnik regional union area, and my Croatian

    16 being -- with all its heart and soul -- turned towards

    17 an independent state of Croatia, do not allow me to act

    18 as leader of the Croatian people in the HZ BH whose

    19 representatives disgracefully and humiliatingly

    20 'defended' -- sold the historical holy Croatian spirit

    21 in those areas.

    22 "This attitude will in no way decrease my

    23 even greater future involvement as a life-long Croatian

    24 activist in the HZ HB working for the welfare of the

    25 Croatian people. This act of mine should not be

  29. 1 considered as a retreat, but as a moral act of pointing

    2 out mistakes which could have been and should have been

    3 avoided in order to strengthen the healthy Croatian

    4 fighting spirit."

    5 Then, following a passage that was not

    6 capable of translation, it continues: "... that

    7 representatives from HZ HB, with the honourable

    8 exception in ... Sarac, tonight showed the miserable

    9 face of an amorphous mass of a herd blindly following a

    10 less blind leader not having the courage, on behalf of

    11 420.000 Croatians in the HZ HB and 120.000 in Hrvatska

    12 Posavina, to state the minimum requirements of the

    13 Croatian people. It should have been said this night

    14 that the Croatian people will not give in even one

    15 millimetre of the 'Banovina' area" -- an illegible

    16 passage -- "... which will be clearly defined with the

    17 democratic right of Croatians to manage their lives in

    18 this area. Not a word (was said) to the

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina TV audience about the sovereign B-H

    20 the Croatians wanted.

    21 "In my opinion, representatives of the

    22 Croatian people from Herceg-Bosna-Posavina, who make up

    23 a significant majority among the HDZ representatives in

    24 the B-H Parliament, having played a secondary role,

    25 behaving like political blind men who allowed

  30. 1 themselves to be the executioners of the process of

    2 losing the centuries old sovereignty of the Croatian

    3 people on the territory of Herceg-Bosna.

    4 "By hypocritically and without dignity giving

    5 an unreserved support to the SDA in the referendum of

    6 B-H citizens for an independent B-H state, these

    7 gentlemen, Croatian" -- and then there's a break, and

    8 it goes on in capital letters: "INDEPENDENT STATE OF



    11 "As Deputy President of the HZ HB, I am

    12 firmly convinced that the leaders of the HZ HB have not

    13 made enough effort to hold an essential meeting of the

    14 HZ HB Presidency and of all the representatives from

    15 our territory. I believe, that even though I only

    16 supported such an approach to this historical hour of

    17 the Croatian people in Herceg-Bosna, with a clearly

    18 defined opinion which can only be determined among the

    19 legitimately elected representatives of the Croatian

    20 people in Herceg-Bosna and not in some quasi club of

    21 representatives which allegedly represents our people,

    22 I carry at least a small dose of historical

    23 responsibility to the Croatian people for being part of

    24 (the assembly) which did nothing to bring about the

    25 only possible, necessary, moral Croatian act and no

  31. 1 other. Finally, it should be said that the opinion

    2 regarding the historical Croatian area in Croatian

    3 unions of Herceg-Bosna and Posavina has not been

    4 honestly and openly stated."

    5 Postscript: "We have received ..." -- and in

    6 quotes -- "... 'generous' promise from Mr. Cengic that

    7 the Government will respect the decision of the new

    8 regionalisation, primarily on economic bases, so the

    9 chances that HZ HB may again become a part of several

    10 wonderful B-H regions are 'growing.'

    11 "For the HDZ, their good and obedient partner

    12 last night the allies appointed the constitutional

    13 court judge and reserved the post of president of the

    14 B-H National Bank. Mr. Miofil Ljubic became the

    15 president of the B-H assembly. So now in the next

    16 elections for the president of the B-H assembly we can

    17 only wait for the post to be given to the HDZ president

    18 Mr. Stjepan Kljuic and then in a 'skilled and wise'

    19 manner bring about a Croatian Bosnia and Herzegovina

    20 with three leading persons in the state -- president of

    21 the state, assembly and government -- and also with

    22 several ministerial seats since these seats are not

    23 wanted by the Serb people.

    24 "Congratulations, with respect," and then the

    25 name "Dario Kordic," and a signature.

  32. 1 Can you just help us with a few things on

    2 this document. He refers to a meeting that had

    3 happened, the assembly session, the same day, the 25th

    4 of January. Had you been at that meeting yourself, or

    5 not?

    6 A. I was present at that meeting. We discussed

    7 this letter several times, and had I not known

    8 Mr. Dario Kordic, I would have thought that he was in a

    9 special psychological frame of mind. This letter is

    10 full of inaccuracies, full of contradictions, so it

    11 cannot be taken officially as a serious matter for a

    12 socio-political community, so it is quite unimportant.

    13 It is of minor significance. It is not worthy of a

    14 debate.

    15 However, this letter shows something

    16 different, and that is that Mr. Kordic firmly adheres

    17 to his positions that a Croatian Banovina should be

    18 established where the Croatian people would live and

    19 that would be annexed -- sorry, I always seem to hit

    20 this thing -- and that this would be annexed to the

    21 republic of Croatia. Then there is a dozen or so

    22 inaccuracies, contradictions, and I don't think that

    23 they are worthy of comment.

    24 The Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was

    25 never legitimate or legal. It did not have legitimacy

  33. 1 or legality. It was never an expression of the will of

    2 the Croat people. It was only the expression of a

    3 certain group of people who had rallied together and

    4 established the so-called Herceg-Bosna, which was never

    5 recognised as an official social organisation, and

    6 domestic organisations did not recognise this, and

    7 international organisations did not recognise it, of

    8 course. International organisations would never stoop

    9 that low.

    10 Q. Can I --

    11 A. Can I continue?

    12 Q. Mr. Cicak, I was going to reflect your

    13 observation that the letter may not be worth too much

    14 comment. You have answered the specific questions that

    15 I wanted to deal with, bar one. Can you just help me

    16 with that? It's clear in this letter that he is

    17 against certain gentlemen as described, and in his

    18 postscript it's clear that he's writing critically of

    19 some people. Can you help with the gentlemen who he

    20 was against at the meeting? Who were they, if you can

    21 remember, and if you can't, say so.

    22 A. I cannot remember, but it is rather comic,

    23 you see. In those days, he was against Mr. Mariofil

    24 Ljubic, and he became president of Parliament and

    25 therefore his associate. So everything is rather

  34. 1 absurd. Mr. Mariofil Ljubic is a descent person who is

    2 in the HDZ, and I don't see why he would be against

    3 him. As for Mr. Cengic and the others, that is

    4 understandable, because they belong to the other party,

    5 the SDA, and it is quite normal that there should be

    6 differences between them, but animosity towards Stjepan

    7 Kljuic, who was the first -- next president of the

    8 presidency after Alija Izetbegovic, that was -- it was

    9 his turn to take over the presidency, so there was no

    10 need to say things against him. There was mention here

    11 of Mariofil Ljubic and I don't know who else, but these

    12 are all people with whom Mr. Dario Kordic collaborated

    13 very closely several months later, so I'm surprised how

    14 such an about-turn could have been made, a salto

    15 mortale, as they say.

    16 Q. Thank you very much. Just, finally, this:

    17 It's said to be a letter of resignation. Did he, in

    18 fact, resign at all?

    19 A. Yes, I forgot to say that. He never really

    20 handed in his resignation, nor did he have that in

    21 mind. I really don't know why he wrote that and what

    22 it served, because nobody even read that.

    23 Q. Thank you.

    24 A. As for -- in terms of the media and other

    25 political organisations.

  35. 1 Q. Now, that --

    2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

    3 MR. NICE: Yes? Sorry.

    4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure whether you're

    5 coming to this next, but the letter was written to one,

    6 two, three, four -- there are five addressees. Was

    7 there any reaction from them to the letter?

    8 MR. NICE: I wasn't coming to it, but I think

    9 that the witness may be able to help us.


    11 MR. NICE:

    12 Q. You've heard Judge Robinson's question,

    13 Mr. Cicak. To your knowledge, did any of the people to

    14 whom this letter was addressed respond to it in

    15 writing, or in any other way?

    16 A. Respond? You mean in writing?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. No. No one responded in writing, ever. Only

    19 in a conclusion, I think it was several months later,

    20 we discussed the matter of the resignation of Mr. Dario

    21 Kordic and that it would not be accepted, and that even

    22 Mate Boban didn't know what it was all about. It was

    23 some kind of an ethical act demonstrating his

    24 disagreement with the policy, I assume, the policy,

    25 combined policy of the SDA, the HDZ, and so on. Nobody

  36. 1 responded in writing, and orally this matter was raised

    2 only several months later. So it was completely

    3 irrelevant.

    4 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you did say that a

    5 decision was taken later not to accept the

    6 resignation? I just want to be clear about that.

    7 THE WITNESS: You mean as a particular

    8 decision? No, it was part of the conclusions of a

    9 meeting, and it was stated in those conclusions that

    10 the resignation of Mr. Dario Kordic was not accepted.

    11 It wasn't any special separate written decision. That

    12 would be too much.

    13 MR. NICE: Can I turn, please, to the next

    14 exhibit, Exhibit 41. So that the Tribunal can know

    15 roughly what the evidence will be, there are a few more

    16 decisions that we've got to deal with, and then we will

    17 come to the newspaper articles that set the scene for

    18 what comes at the very end of this passage of evidence.

    19 There are a few more decisions yet to deal with. Not

    20 so very many.

    21 THE WITNESS: Could we have a break?

    22 MR. NICE: I think the witness is --

    23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cicak, would you like a

    24 break? We normally have our break at 11.15; that's to

    25 give the interpreters a break. Would that be all right

  37. 1 with you?

    2 THE WITNESS: I would be very grateful.

    3 JUDGE MAY: You would like a break now?

    4 THE WITNESS: Not a break, a pause. A

    5 pause. Not a lunch break. Just a break.

    6 JUDGE MAY: We will have our normal break

    7 now. 20 minutes.

    8 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

    9 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.

    10 MR. NICE: Exhibit 41, please, and this is

    11 dated the 27th of January, headed, "Croatian Community

    12 of Herceg-Bosna, Travnik Subregional Community", and in

    13 the list of those attending, six lines down, Mr. Cicak,

    14 we see your name listed.

    15 Q. Just to tidy one thing up straightaway, if we

    16 turn to paragraph 10 of the conclusions, was it indeed

    17 on this meeting, at paragraph 10, that the following

    18 was recorded: "Full support is given to the leadership

    19 of Herceg-Bosna. The resignation of Mr. Dario Kordic

    20 is rejected. However, it is acknowledged as a moral

    21 act intended to clear all misunderstandings of

    22 political options and further activity of Croatian

    23 people in these areas"?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Before we come back to the body of the

  38. 1 document, and simply to deal with something that I want

    2 to deal with at some stage, could you please look at

    3 the end of the document?

    4 And for these purposes, the Tribunal might

    5 like, please, to look at the original, as the question

    6 I have relates to language and translation.

    7 On the original, we see that Mr. Kordic signs

    8 underneath a title which is headed "Dop --" you tell me

    9 what the title is, and then we'll hear it through the

    10 interpreters. What title does he have here?

    11 A. Regarding this document, on the last page it

    12 says, "Deputy President of the Croatian Community of

    13 Herceg-Bosna and president of the Travnik Subregional

    14 Community, Dario Kordic," but this is not his

    15 signature.

    16 Q. Very well. But at the moment, I'm just

    17 concerned with the question of titles, and I'm going to

    18 ask you this question, but it may be that, in a sense,

    19 I'm really trying to get assistance from the

    20 interpreters.

    21 Is there a word in your language for

    22 "chairman" that is different from the word for

    23 "president"? It may be that that indeed can't be

    24 interpreted, if there isn't an appropriate word, but --

    25 THE INTERPRETER: There is, there is.

  39. 1 Q. What's the word for chairman?

    2 THE INTERPRETER: "Precidavajuci." "No,"

    3 says the witness.

    4 A. Our word for "chairman" is "predsjedavajuci",

    5 and "president" is "president." In this case, it is

    6 not the chairman of a meeting that is the person

    7 chairing a meeting, the first among equals, but this is

    8 the president of the Travnik Subregional Community.

    9 Q. Thank you very much. And we see here the

    10 signature. You say that is not his signature?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Do you know anything about how that signature

    13 was put on this document?

    14 A. No. No, I don't. No.

    15 Q. Can we come back, please --

    16 A. I couldn't speculate.

    17 Q. (Inaudible) of the document, and in the

    18 conclusions, I just want to deal with, I think, three

    19 of them. Under "1" and about five lines down, does the

    20 conclusion read as follows? "Representatives in the

    21 Bosnia and Herzegovina assembly, chosen on behalf of

    22 the B and H HDZ, should not have voted, nor were they

    23 authorised to vote for such a decision, without

    24 consulting with the municipal HDZ boards and without

    25 consulting with the Herceg-Bosna presidency, as these

  40. 1 decisions were decisive for the destiny of the Croatian

    2 people."

    3 Do you remember this matter being discussed?

    4 A. Yes. Actually, at the time the Croatian

    5 Democratic Union and its position, ranging from the

    6 main board of the HDZ of Croatia to the HDZ of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was that the Croats should not

    8 participate in the referendum. At first, that was the

    9 position taken, that the Croats should not participate

    10 in the referendum.

    11 Q. What was your position on this?

    12 A. My position was that there was no reason for

    13 the Croats to obstruct the referendum in

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that they should freely express

    15 their will, because, after all, it meant general

    16 support but it didn't really mean anything, but it was

    17 a kind of moral support for the State of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    19 Q. Conclusion number 6, please. "We state that

    20 inter-party negotiations up to now have been

    21 consciously obstructed by Stjepan Kljuic, and this

    22 subregion withdraws any right bestowed on him for

    23 representing the party and the Croatian people."

    24 Was that a view with which you agreed or not?

    25 A. Nonsense. I did not agree with that. Such a

  41. 1 conclusion was not even adopted at this meeting.

    2 I said already that all written documents

    3 that later appeared, such as these minutes, were

    4 drafted by Mr. Kostroman in his own office after the

    5 meetings. He would phrase the conclusions in these

    6 documents in the way it suited him, his followers and

    7 his superiors.

    8 Q. Then paragraph 9, "Mr. Mate Boban shall be in

    9 charge of speeding up the negotiations with other

    10 parties together with persons authorised to negotiate.

    11 Mr. Stjepan Kljuic is to be excluded from

    12 negotiations, since his conduct is directly obstructing

    13 the course and the content of the negotiations."

    14 Do your previous comments apply to that

    15 paragraph as well?

    16 A. Yes, I have no comment. This is a fatal

    17 mistake for the Croatian Democratic Union of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    19 I'm afraid someone from the Defence may again

    20 say that I'm commenting on this matter, but this meant

    21 complete separation of Mr. Kljuic from the Croatian

    22 Democratic Union and the take-over of that union by

    23 Mr. Mate Boban.

    24 MR. NICE: Thank you. Exhibit 42, please.

    25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice?

  42. 1 MR. NICE: Yes, sorry.

    2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have heard several

    3 references to decisions taken in these meetings and the

    4 question as to whether they have been reflected with

    5 fidelity in the conclusions. I would like to find out

    6 what was the procedure in the meeting for the adoption

    7 of decisions. For example, was it on the basis of a

    8 majority, or on what basis were decisions adopted?

    9 MR. NICE:

    10 Q. Mr. Cicak, you've heard Judge Robinson's

    11 question. Could you help us, please?

    12 A. I can. At each meeting, minutes were kept in

    13 handwriting, by hand. Those minutes were of a general

    14 nature. The debates were also of a general nature.

    15 There was nothing specific. And after those

    16 discussions, it would be proposed that a group of

    17 people attending the meeting, the secretariat or the

    18 executive board of the HDZ, would draft the

    19 conclusions. Then, on the basis of the minutes and the

    20 discussions that went on at the meeting among 20 or 30

    21 men, the main points would be extracted and a sentence

    22 compiled in the form of a conclusion.

    23 So that in this case, everything that is

    24 written here was not adopted by the executive board or

    25 a group of people attending the meeting. All these

  43. 1 conclusions, at least those at my disposal, and there

    2 were several hundred of them, I see only a couple here,

    3 those conclusions were drafted by Mr. Ignac Kostroman.

    4 I think this suited the interests of a certain group of

    5 people in the Croatian Democratic Community.

    6 Q. Can I follow that answer with two detailed

    7 questions? Were matters at the meeting ever put to a

    8 vote of those attending?

    9 A. They were.

    10 Q. How regularly? For every issue or just for

    11 some issues?

    12 A. Some key issues that had to do with the work

    13 of the HDZ and the society in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

    14 the activities of the HDZ in Busovaca.

    15 There are two types of voting; secret ballot

    16 and by show of hands. All the voting was done by show

    17 of hands; those against, those for. Never did we have

    18 any secret vote, even in the case of the most important

    19 issues for the work of the Croatian Democratic Union.

    20 Q. When you found yourself in disagreement with

    21 the majority or what you may have thought to be the

    22 majority, did you nevertheless cast your vote by show

    23 of hands in accordance with your conscience?

    24 A. No, I didn't vote, but this would never be

    25 shown in any minutes or in any written form, so that we

  44. 1 don't know what the situation was at that meeting. I

    2 know that there were a number of my friends attending

    3 these meetings who did not agree with the debates that

    4 we had at the time. There were contradictory views

    5 expressed, but never, never, never are opposing views

    6 reflected in these documents, only those supported by

    7 Mr. Kostroman.

    8 Q. My question may not have been clear, but I

    9 think you've explained it. But I'll nevertheless

    10 clarify it.

    11 Did you vote in accordance with what you

    12 believed, when you had a chance to vote by show of

    13 hand?

    14 A. Only if I believed in something. If I didn't

    15 believe in anything, I would not raise my hand.

    16 Q. The second detailed question following on

    17 Judge Robinson's enquiry: Minutes of the type we are

    18 looking at, were they distributed to those attending

    19 the meeting on a regular basis or not?

    20 A. That's a story for children. Let me

    21 explain. No, they were never distributed.

    22 Q. Thank you.

    23 A. We usually say "a children's tale" to mean

    24 that.

    25 Q. I trust that meets the concerns of Judge

  45. 1 Robinson and the enquires he wanted to make.

    2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It does. I mean no doubt

    3 others may wish to take this up.

    4 MR. NICE: The next exhibit is 42, for which

    5 I need only one -- literally one line.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, before you go on,

    7 paragraph 10 of that last exhibit states, "The

    8 resignation of Mr. Kordic is rejected."

    9 MR. NICE: Yes, it does. I dealt with that

    10 right at the beginning of the evidence, Your Honour.

    11 Q. Z42, Registry page number 5737. Mr. Cicak,

    12 this is a --

    13 A. Excuse me. Just a moment, please.

    14 Q. This one is dated the 29th of January of

    15 1992. I can't find your name in the list, although

    16 it's difficult to find names in these lists. It's

    17 excerpts from the minute of the session of the

    18 presidency of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

    19 expanded to include presidents of the municipal boards

    20 of the HDZ BH from the area of Herceg-Bosna, and it was

    21 held in Grude. Did you attend this meeting or not?

    22 A. I did not.

    23 Q. The only point I want to take you to is on

    24 the fifth English side, so the third English sheet, and

    25 in the original it's, I think, at about the same place,

  46. 1 about five sheets in, under a paragraph headed,

    2 "Re-examination of staff appointments." It is the

    3 last sentence of that paragraph which, if you found it,

    4 reads, in the English translation, "A candidate who is

    5 not a member of the HDZ cannot be appointed to a post

    6 in the bodies of the Republic."

    7 Were you aware of this decision?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Its effect, so far as the power and authority

    10 of the party was concerned, was what?

    11 A. I have to explain that in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    12 with the emergence of national parties, SDS, HDZ, and

    13 SDA, absolutely no one, no one, could be elected to the

    14 lowest position, to a doorman even, if he was not a

    15 member of a national party. Therefore, personnel

    16 policy was decided by nationalist parties, be it

    17 Bosniaks, Serbs, or Croats, which was fatal for

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and still is.

    19 Q. Thank you. The next exhibit, please, 47.

    20 This one, I'll just check, was not in the core bundle.

    21 I'm grateful to Ms. Somers. The transcript

    22 reads "nationalist parties" in the answer to the

    23 previous question, and I believe the word was

    24 "national," but no doubt it can be corrected, if

    25 appropriate.

  47. 1 This document, Mr. Cicak, dated the 21st of

    2 February of 1992, from the Croatian Community of

    3 Herceg-Bosna to the secretariat to the Zagreb HDZ, the

    4 presidency of the HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

    5 secretariat of the HDZ BH, the president of the Grude

    6 HZ-HB, and the municipal boards of the HDZ of the

    7 Travnik Regional Community, a document signed under a

    8 name, "Dario Kordic." Do you recognise the signature

    9 or not?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And whose signature is it?

    12 A. Dario Kordic's, Mr. Dario Kordic's.

    13 Q. And the body of this document includes, I

    14 think, four paragraphs. I don't want to read all of

    15 it, in order to save some time, but the first

    16 paragraph -- perhaps I better read as follows: "The

    17 historic importance of this moment for the Croatian

    18 people of Herceg-Bosna calls for a clear and

    19 unequivocal stand by the HDZ BH political leadership

    20 with respect to the referendum on the status of Bosnia

    21 and Herzegovina. We are absolutely opposed to any

    22 disruption of the unity of the Croatian people and the

    23 HDZ BH, which took much effort to build and was clearly

    24 demonstrated during the main board meeting held in

    25 Livno. We therefore believe that the passive and vague

  48. 1 stand of the HDZ BH presidency has created fertile

    2 ground for the activities of opponents of a unified

    3 approach of the Croatian people (for example, the Doboj

    4 HDZ and others) and its polarisation. Our opponents

    5 are taking advantage of this situation and revelling in

    6 our weaknesses."

    7 And then after two paragraphs, the fourth

    8 paragraph reads: "We give no one the right to depart

    9 from the clearly-defined stand of the HDZ BH from Livno

    10 for which we voted almost unanimously. We, therefore,

    11 see all who disrupt party discipline as destroyers and

    12 executioners of the Croatian people as a whole."

    13 Mr. Cicak, can you help us, please, with what

    14 is being referred to as the conclusions of the meeting

    15 almost unanimously agreed to at Livno?

    16 A. Should I start?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. This document shows the division within the

    19 Croatian Democratic Union of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    20 I don't know if I mentioned this before, but

    21 I have to say that the Croatian Democratic Union was

    22 actually divided into three regional areas. The basic

    23 area was the most active one. In terms of the creation

    24 of a banovina and annexation to Croatia, et cetera,

    25 that was Herzegovina. The other part was Central

  49. 1 Bosnia and the third part was Posavina. It was

    2 inhabited by people who were very rich, people who were

    3 well off, who had their own family houses, their own

    4 land, and it never occurred to them that they should go

    5 by some silly book or instructions written by Mr. Anto

    6 Valenta about the so-called humane resettlement. They

    7 were very close to the Posavina of the State of

    8 Croatia. They cooperated with them and they had close

    9 ties to them. The other community was Central Bosnia

    10 and the third one was Herceg-Bosna.

    11 This third document shows that there was a

    12 polarisation, and it speaks of the regional

    13 community -- I underline "regional community" -- of

    14 Herceg-Bosna, and they talk about the Croatian people

    15 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those two do not mix

    16 because the Croatian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina do

    17 not only live in the regional community of Herceg-Bosna

    18 but throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is to say,

    19 from the Adriatic to the Sava, from the Una to the

    20 Drina Rivers.

    21 There are Croat people living everywhere.

    22 The Croat people said clearly that they disagreed with

    23 these positions that were presented here, which was

    24 acknowledged in this document as well, that -- this was

    25 put pretty roughly, that there are destroyers, et

  50. 1 cetera, et cetera -- something very ugly was said about

    2 individuals amongst the Croatian people who do not

    3 recognise these other representatives of the Croatian

    4 people.

    5 Mention is made of the referendum here. That

    6 is to say, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

    7 believed that the Croats should not vote in the

    8 referendum at all. But Croats did vote 100 per cent,

    9 and they voted -- that should be remembered, they voted

    10 in favour of a unified Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    11 Q. Can I just interrupt you briefly, because

    12 I --

    13 A. I am interrupted all the time.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I think it would be

    15 helpful to the Tribunal to return to the question which

    16 you asked.

    17 MR. NICE: I was about to do that.

    18 JUDGE MAY: What was agreed at Livno, in a

    19 few words, please?

    20 MR. NICE:

    21 Q. You've heard His Honour, Judge May's

    22 question. Could you just help us by giving us the

    23 answer to that question, please. What was agreed at

    24 Livno, in summary?

    25 A. It was agreed upon in Livno that these

  51. 1 conclusions of Herceg-Bosna had to be carried out

    2 throughout all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that Croats could

    3 not be outside the HDZ. That is to say, if they were

    4 in the HDZ, they had to carry out the conclusions of

    5 Herceg-Bosna.

    6 Q. Thank you very much.

    7 MR. NICE: The next exhibit is Z48, and then

    8 we'll turn to something different.

    9 A. This is a bad photocopy. Couldn't you find

    10 better photocopies?

    11 Q. I'm afraid, Mr. Cicak, you have the best that

    12 we've been able to provide at the moment. If we can

    13 find better ones for the Court, you can be sure that we

    14 will. But I only need you to turn to the second

    15 sheet --

    16 A. If this is a good photocopy, if this is a

    17 good photocopy, I don't know what a bad one is.

    18 Q. If you could be so good as to turn to the

    19 second sheet, please, of a document that is dated the

    20 27th of February, and the title of which the Tribunal

    21 can see for themselves. I think you'll find that

    22 paragraph 3 is sufficiently clear to read, and it reads

    23 as follows, in the English translation: "The status of

    24 outgoing president Stjepan Kljuic: Up until the

    25 authorised organ of the HDZ resolves the issue of the

  52. 1 formal-legal and political status of the President of

    2 the BH HDZ Stjepan Kljuic, his rights and duties

    3 regarding his authority as president of the BH HDZ are

    4 suspended and he does not have the right to appear in

    5 public on behalf of the HDZ BH."

    6 And that is signed at the bottom by typed

    7 names of Kostroman and Boban. The meeting is said --

    8 hard to discern -- to have been a meeting of the

    9 presidency of the Croatian Democratic Union.

    10 Mr. Cicak, did you become aware of this

    11 decision?

    12 A. I knew -- well, an introduction has to be

    13 made from the 21st of March, 1991, in order to

    14 understand this document, and this signature, I don't

    15 know whether it is Mr. Boban's signature, but what was

    16 written here made no political sense at the moment in

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, at that time.

    18 Q. Thank you. You've told us on several

    19 occasions that you did not agree with the decisions

    20 that were being made, and you have also told us that

    21 your views were never recorded in the minutes, as we've

    22 now seen them, of these meetings.

    23 MR. NICE: The next exhibit, please, is --

    24 Your Honour, I forgot to give you the core bundle

    25 document reference. It's 5721 for that last document,

  53. 1 5721.

    2 The next exhibit, 59,1 and -- 59,1 and 59,1A

    3 were not in the core bundle. They are documents for

    4 which we have summary translations at the moment and I

    5 trust full translations after the weekend. They are --

    6 this is the first of a few newspaper articles which I

    7 will ask this witness to deal with, one or two in full,

    8 the others just by reference to certain passages or to

    9 the summaries.

    10 Q. Mr. Cicak, you've heard that we don't yet

    11 have full translations into English of all the articles

    12 that you've provided us, but -- and this is one for

    13 which we have only a summary. What I would like you to

    14 do, please, Mr. Cicak, is to look at the original

    15 version, to remind yourself in the most general terms

    16 of what it says, and then to listen to me as I read the

    17 summary of its contents from the English version in

    18 order to tell us if, in general terms, the summary

    19 reflects what's contained in the original.

    20 So if you have the original before you, the

    21 summary is that this is an open letter by you, dated

    22 the 9th of March, headlined: "The Croatian Community

    23 of Herceg-Bosna is a product of a sick mind."

    24 Your open letter read, or was summarised, in

    25 this way: "The so-called HZ HB President Dario Kordic

  54. 1 and the Travnik region crisis staff launched the

    2 initiative to block the roads in the Lasva River Valley

    3 and the surrounding area. This idea was then called

    4 off and a meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister

    5 Muhamed Cengic and General Kukanjac announced.

    6 "There are many unknown factors regarding the

    7 legitimacy of the HZ HB and its leaders as well as

    8 their agenda. This letter attempts to shed light on

    9 some of them.

    10 "The HZ HB is a product of sick extremists

    11 led by Mate Boban -- it was never an expression of the

    12 will of the Croatian people in BH.

    13 "At a secret meeting in Grude, on 18 November

    14 1991, Boban, Kordic, Santic, Kostroman all appointed

    15 themselves as leaders of something they concocted and

    16 called it HZ HB.

    17 "There was never a decision by the central

    18 board of HDZ in BH to create a regional community of

    19 Travnik HDZ in BH.

    20 "The Travnik regional crisis staff was never

    21 officially created.

    22 "Mato Boban, Dario Kordic, Vlado Santic and

    23 Ignac Kostroman -- all self-appointed wild nationalist

    24 officials of the non-existent HZ HB have never been

    25 given the authority to act on behalf of the Croatian

  55. 1 people in BH.

    2 "Not one of the 30 Municipal Assemblies

    3 which allegedly made up the non-existent HZ HB has ever

    4 made a decision regarding the creation of the HZ HB,

    5 nor did it call a referendum of the Croatian people on

    6 that subject.

    7 "Boban, Kordic and Kostroman have no

    8 authorisation to organise roadblocks or act in a way

    9 which endangers the lives of innocent citizens of BH.

    10 "If Croatia is interested in the welfare of

    11 the people in BH they can always offer financial

    12 assistance rather than inquire about the production of

    13 armament factory in Novi Travnik.

    14 "The Croatian, Serbian and Muslim peoples in

    15 Kresevo, Fojnica, Kiseljak, Busovaca, Vitez, Novi

    16 Travnik, and Travnik have always lived together

    17 peacefully. The extremists from any nationalist party

    18 are in vain trying to provoke a civil war in the region

    19 to fulfil some insane objectives.

    20 "Deputy Prime Minister Muhamed Cengic and

    21 General Kukanjac should not come for a meeting with the

    22 self-appointed insane leaders of the non-existent HZ HB

    23 because the only true and legitimate representative of

    24 the Croatian people in BH is the Central Board of the

    25 HDZ in Sarajevo led by president Stjepan Kljuic.

  56. 1 "It is hoped that this letter will help the

    2 Croatian people and other citizens of BH find out the

    3 truth. Perhaps citizens from other national groups

    4 will be encouraged to expose their own non-existent

    5 self-proclaimed organisations."

    6 First, does the summary I've read out reflect

    7 what is contained in the original document?

    8 A. Excellent.

    9 Q. Were those views expressed your own genuinely

    10 held views?

    11 A. This article was divided into three parts.

    12 The first part -- I mean, lest there be any

    13 misunderstanding, the first part of the text of this

    14 written material pertains to the physical obstacles to

    15 the withdrawal of armaments, weapons, and other

    16 equipment from military factories that were in the

    17 Lasva Valley. In the Lasva Valley, the following were

    18 operating: Vitez, as the dynamite factory --

    19 Q. Mr. Cicak, I'm going to come back to the

    20 various resources of the Lasva Valley towards the end

    21 of your evidence, and perhaps we can deal with it

    22 there. In order to assist the Tribunal to follow the

    23 flow of newspaper articles and their conclusion for

    24 you, at this moment, if you accept that the views

    25 expressed here were your genuinely expressed views, and

  57. 1 bearing in mind that we're going to have a full

    2 translation of the document before probably your

    3 evidence is concluded, we can move on to the next

    4 exhibit.

    5 So just help us, please. Were these your

    6 genuinely held views at the time?

    7 A. I have to mention one fact only, and this

    8 Honourable Court has to bear this in mind: This is the

    9 final outcome of my powerlessness. No matter how many

    10 times I tried, at all levels of organisation of the HDZ

    11 of the BH, to point out all the things that were wrong,

    12 especially the criminal acts of the Croatian Community

    13 of Herceg-Bosna and also the criminal acts of the

    14 municipal committee of the HDZ of Busovaca, I did not

    15 have any support, and I had to address the citizens of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina publicly so that I would draw their

    17 attention to what was going on in the more extremist

    18 part, so to speak, of the HDZ of the BH and to point

    19 out the results of that. This article that I wrote is

    20 an authentic text that you managed to find somewhere.

    21 I don't know.

    22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    23 allow me to interrupt you for a few seconds. It seems

    24 to me that you haven't told us -- or, rather, you

    25 didn't ask the witness to tell us -- which was the

  58. 1 magazine or paper in which this document appeared.

    2 Which was the magazine? What was its circulation?

    3 What was the background of the publication of this

    4 letter? Could we have some more information to be able

    5 to perceive the possible impact that it may have had?

    6 MR. NICE: Certainly. I was going to turn to

    7 some of those issues, but not all of those issues, some

    8 of which I cannot deal with. If we look at the

    9 original 59,1, there is an annotation at the top which

    10 probably needs correcting. I'll deal with it through

    11 the witness, if the witness can help.

    12 Q. In which newspaper was this article

    13 published? Can you help us, Mr. Cicak?

    14 A. This article was published in the written

    15 media of Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the electronic media

    16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is to say that it was

    17 broadcast on Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, Radio

    18 Sarajevo. It was broadcast on television, the

    19 television of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was carried on

    20 the Yutel Television, and also in print. In

    21 Oslobodjenje, the daily newspaper, also in Nasa Rijec,

    22 and the text that I have here is from the newspaper

    23 Nasa Rijec, which covered half of Bosnia-Herzegovina;

    24 and as much as I could see in certain documents -- I

    25 didn't read this -- I found it in some small local

  59. 1 papers, this very same text.

    2 Q. Yes. I'm afraid I don't think we're going to

    3 be able to assist with circulation figures for the

    4 newspapers, but the newspapers concerned were published

    5 in -- how widespread were they published within

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Locally, or throughout?

    7 MR. NICE: We've already dealt with that.

    8 Thank you. I was distracted. I withdraw that

    9 question, and we move to the next exhibit, 59,2.

    10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice, we

    11 have information about the mass media, the means used

    12 to publish this article. Could the witness tell us

    13 whether there were any reactions that he was aware of?

    14 Was he aware of any reaction following the publication

    15 of this article?

    16 MR. NICE: I'll deal with Your Honour's

    17 question in two ways. First of all, there is certainly

    18 a reaction coming, but it comes in a sequence of

    19 articles, and it's a newspaper article itself, but it's

    20 better that we should see that it is in it's right

    21 place in the chronology, rather than at an earlier

    22 stage. Indeed, the witness has already referred to

    23 that article yesterday when he referred to the title

    24 "Small Judas." But I will deal immediately with Your

    25 Honour's concern in more general terms at this stage.

  60. 1 Q. Mr. Cicak, was there any immediate reaction

    2 to this article, either in press or in any other way?

    3 Contacts with you, phone calls, people stopping you in

    4 the street, whatever else. Was there any immediate

    5 reaction to this earlier article that you published?

    6 A. This is only one of the ten-odd articles I

    7 have published. It is absolutely not one article that

    8 I published, but some ten or so, but I don't know how

    9 many you have in your documentation. I had many more,

    10 because they took -- before they took it out of my

    11 house.

    12 The reaction was a very turbulent one. All

    13 the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were

    14 democratically oriented phoned me or they saw me in

    15 person or at various meetings, and they approved of my

    16 position.

    17 MR. NICE: I trust that will meet the

    18 immediate concerns. And as we look at exhibit -- if we

    19 now look at Exhibit 59,2.

    20 Q. Again, if you have that before you,

    21 Mr. Cicak, this is an article published on the 12th of

    22 March, a couple of days later, in --

    23 A. I don't have this. Would you please be so

    24 kind as to provide me with --

    25 Q. The Slobodna Bosna paper?

  61. 1 A. I don't have it.

    2 Q. I'm so sorry.

    3 MR. NICE: 59,2; does the Court have 59,2?

    4 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    5 MR. NICE: Can I see what the witness has

    6 got, and perhaps I can help.

    7 Q. Again, Mr. Cicak, I'm going to ask you,

    8 please, to remind yourself by looking at and scanning

    9 the article as I read to the Court a summary of it that

    10 we have at 59,2.

    11 The summary reads as follows: "The Croatian

    12 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina have recently been

    13 exposed to a violent appropriation of power and

    14 authority by a group of self-appointed so-called

    15 leaders of non-existent political creations allegedly

    16 representing Croatian communities in BH. This travesty

    17 of political process has been further exacerbated by

    18 the foolish ruling that the Croats in BH would be

    19 represented in Brussels by Mate Boban, Vlado Santic,

    20 and Iko Stanic. These three weak-spirited individuals

    21 will never able to represent the Croatian people in

    22 Bosnia and Herzegovina. The HDZ leadership consisting

    23 of Tudjman, Mesic, and Juric have just made their worst

    24 decision ever in sending these three base creatures.

    25 Such actions are likely to be extremely harmful for the

  62. 1 independence and respect of the HDZ in BH.

    2 "Peace-making efforts of Kljuic and some

    3 others have been violently opposed by Boban and company

    4 because the president Kljuic saw through the insanity

    5 of division of BH. The HDZ in BH has unfortunately

    6 been rotting from the core with the unprecedented

    7 actions of the secretary general of the party Ignac

    8 Kostroman who has been plotting to get rid of the party

    9 president. This is being done not to improve the

    10 standing of the Croatian cause but to continue looting

    11 and defrauding of party funds the majority of which --

    12 72.000.000 DEM -- have arrived from abroad. The

    13 corruption involving officials from HDZ leadership is

    14 widespread and includes money laundering, buying and

    15 selling of armaments, military equipment, oil, coal,

    16 foodstuffs, et cetera.

    17 "Moreover, his associates in Croatia have

    18 participated in creating policies which have resulted

    19 in the most senseless war, with 50.000 citizens of

    20 Croatia killed and 1.200.000 displaced throughout

    21 Europe. Considering that Tudjman has recently stated

    22 that Croatia proper has a historic duty to help the

    23 Croats in BH, it is important to decline this offer of

    24 assistance. The Croats in BH have always known that

    25 they had to follow their own counsel without the need

  63. 1 for half-baked concepts conceived by sick and deranged

    2 persons like Boban, Stanic, Santic, Kordic and

    3 Kostroman.

    4 "The proud and independent Croatian people in

    5 BH will never follow someone like Boban who is not

    6 worthy of representing them."

    7 First of all, Mr. Cicak -- and I know it's a

    8 difficult exercise -- but does the summary that I've

    9 read out cover most of the important points in the

    10 original text that you've had before you?

    11 A. Partly, it does correspond, but the

    12 translation is not quite correct, at least what I heard

    13 through the headphones, but the text is okay.

    14 Q. Thank you.

    15 A. What is your question?

    16 Q. Again, insofar as it's accurate, were these

    17 your honest opinions expressed publicly at the time?

    18 A. More loudly, please.

    19 Yes. These are my honest opinions, and they

    20 were the result of the increasingly deteriorating

    21 situation in Herceg-Bosna or, rather, the part led by

    22 Mr. Dario Kordic and Mr. Mate Boban. The result of

    23 this was the arming of Croats. Whether this was on a

    24 voluntary basis or not, I don't know, but an important

    25 point of mine was underlined here, and I think it was

  64. 1 supported by all the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    2 and that is that Mate Boban does not have the

    3 legitimacy to represent the Croatian people, especially

    4 Vlado Santic and the others. These were anonymous

    5 people, and Mr. Mate Boban under no circumstances had

    6 the legitimacy to represent the Croats of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. If anyone needed to represent

    8 them, then there were the official bodies of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina in which those people were members,

    10 and they could have been the people to go to the

    11 negotiations in Brussels.

    12 Everything else is true, because a large

    13 amount of money was obtained through sale of armaments

    14 and directly coming to Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think I

    15 can freely say that the persons profited personally

    16 more than they really prepared the Croatian people of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina for any kind of military campaign

    18 that was being prepared. All this was the result of

    19 the erroneous policy of Mr. Tudjman, Mr. Mesic,

    20 Mr. Susak, and, of course, there were Spegelj and

    21 others working in Croatia, but I think it was a totally

    22 erroneous policy towards Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    23 Q. Thank you.

    24 MR. NICE: The next document, please, is Z60,

    25 and is a minute that fits chronologically into the

  65. 1 developing history. Registry page number, again,

    2 5709.

    3 Q. This document, I think, is headed as an

    4 excerpt from the minutes of a meeting of the Croatian

    5 Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina held on the 15th

    6 of March of 1992 in Bugojno. Did you attend that

    7 meeting or not?

    8 A. No, I did not attend that meeting.

    9 Q. We see that Dario Kordic is listed in the

    10 block of guests to the meeting, the fourth line in the

    11 English and fifth line in the original.

    12 The conclusions of the meeting, at the second

    13 sheet of the English and likewise the second sheet of

    14 the original, records the following: "Quorum: We note

    15 for the record that 38 members of the Main Board are in

    16 attendance, which is a simple majority for lawful

    17 decision making.

    18 "Election of an acting president of the HDZ

    19 BiH: Prof. Dr. Milenko Brkic, Minister in the BiH

    20 Government, is appointed the acting President of the

    21 Croatian Democratic Union of Bosnia and Herzegovina

    22 with one abstention.

    23 "It has been felt that the election of Prof.

    24 Dr. Milenko Brkic, a prominent scientist and

    25 politically eminent worker, to the position of acting

  66. 1 President of the Croatian Democratic Union of Bosnia

    2 and Herzegovina is a step towards strengthening the

    3 Croatian Community. The Croatian Democratic Union has

    4 been supporting unity from the beginning.

    5 "All members of the HDZ BiH presidency have

    6 unanimously agreed to support the new acting President,

    7 and recognise him as the lawfully elected leader of the

    8 HDZ BiH."

    9 Did you become aware of this decision?

    10 A. You mean at the time it was taken, on the

    11 same day? I did not. But I spoke to Mr. Milenko Brkic

    12 several days later. We had a very intimate

    13 conversation. We exchanged some jokes. I asked him

    14 how come he had been elected, as a well-known linguist,

    15 and who, together with Professor Martin Udovicic, how

    16 come the two of them were in this group? And this

    17 statement that everybody would support -- how did you

    18 put it, the Croatian people; I don't remember

    19 exactly -- is a mere farce, because it is well known

    20 that Mr. Milenko Brkic handed in his unequivocal

    21 resignation several days later. He is today in

    22 Mostar. He is a university professor and a man of

    23 integrity.

    24 Q. When he handed over the reins, who --

    25 A. Therefore to this day -- yes?

  67. 1 Q. When he handed over the presidency, who took

    2 it over? Who was next appointed or elected?

    3 A. I think it was Mr. Mate Boban.

    4 Q. Can we then please turn to the next exhibit,

    5 not in the core bundle, 60,1 and 60,1A in the English.

    6 Q. This is another newspaper article which I

    7 would like you to look at to remind yourself of it in

    8 general terms, to scan it, if you can, as I read the

    9 quite short summary.

    10 This is an article published in the same

    11 newspaper as the first article was published, I think,

    12 on the 16th of March. The headline is: "Busovaca is a

    13 Town of Hard-working, Wise and Peaceful Citizens." The

    14 article is by yourself.

    15 The summary of it is as follows: "Busovaca

    16 is a town of Croats, Serbs and Muslims who should all

    17 live in peace. That is why the policy of people like

    18 Kordic is destructive and senseless. Ethnic hatred is

    19 provoked artificially and unnecessarily. Absurd

    20 staffing policy is being implemented in administration,

    21 police, schools, hospitals, and companies. Croatian

    22 citizens and youth are being armed in an unprecedented

    23 and insane manner. People who are given weapons are

    24 often mentally unbalanced, well-known drunks and

    25 unstable characters. This has had a profoundly

  68. 1 disturbing effect on the peaceful living of the

    2 citizens of the Busovaca municipality. Shootings can

    3 occur anytime and anywhere. The financial means given

    4 to the HDZ are being used arbitrarily and willfully

    5 without any control. Without authorisation, the

    6 Busovaca municipality has been secretly made part of

    7 the non-existent HZ-HB/Croatian Community of

    8 Herceg-Bosna/ with Mostar as its centre. The Croatian

    9 extremists are wrecking the peaceful life of ordinary

    10 citizens. No one can fathom why Kordic has decided to

    11 destroy peace and downgrade the complete Croatian

    12 movement. We ask the nefarious individuals to leave

    13 the Busovaca HDZ in BH and let the normal people live

    14 in peace."

    15 First, was that summary that I've read, in

    16 the most general terms, a reflection of the article of

    17 which you have the original before you, in Cyrillic

    18 text, of course?

    19 A. Yes, this is one of the nice articles written

    20 in the local paper, but it was published in all the

    21 print media of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as the

    22 electronic media of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is an

    23 article on Busovaca, a town of hard-working wise and

    24 peaceful citizens, which Busovaca always was.

    25 Busovaca, from the beginnings as a small village, never

  69. 1 had any aspirations to engage in any kind of warfare or

    2 extremist activities, and even during the Second World

    3 War, when fascists were rampant in this area, Busovaca

    4 was not a part of it. It only had one Ustasha.

    5 So the main point of this is why is

    6 Mr. Kordic arming shock groups, a certain number of

    7 people and why he's using them to terrorise the

    8 population of the regional community or, rather, the

    9 town of Busovaca and the municipality, and what was its

    10 aim? Why should people be disturbed, and why should

    11 cooperation be upset between Serbs, Croats, and

    12 Bosniaks, or Muslims, as they were called in those

    13 days? That is the point of this article.

    14 I think that the population accepted this,

    15 because I received a very large number of written

    16 comments and oral remarks in agreement, expressing

    17 agreement with this text, and a certain number of

    18 members of the municipal board of the HDZ, not to

    19 mention the republican presidency of the HDZ, supported

    20 these positions, and I think that these were normal

    21 positions for a democratic state, or a state that had

    22 pretentious to become a democratic state.

    23 Q. Thank you.

    24 MR. NICE: Exhibit 61 next, registry page

    25 5703.

  70. 1 Q. This document, in the original, is

    2 hand-written. It has some signatures at its foot. Do

    3 you recognise any of them?

    4 A. I recognise the signature of Mr. Dario

    5 Kordic. I don't know whether I was present at that

    6 meeting; probably not. I don't know when it has held,

    7 because if it was during the night, I couldn't have

    8 been present.

    9 Q. Well, the date at the top, in handwriting, is

    10 said to be the 17th of March, which would accordingly

    11 follow the articles that we've just been considering,

    12 and is said to be a joint meeting of the leaders of the

    13 municipal HDZ boards for Since, Busovaca, Vitez, and

    14 Travnik, and the listed attendees, ten in number, are

    15 set out. Your name is not there amongst them.

    16 A. Yes, I've already said.

    17 Q. And it was in Vitez.

    18 The conclusions of this gathering --

    19 A. Excuse me, the time is not indicated, the

    20 hours. If the meeting was held at 20.00 hours or 19.00

    21 hours, then technically I could not attend. If it had

    22 been held earlier on, I could have attended, but I

    23 don't know the time when it was actually held.

    24 Q. Thank you. The conclusions read: "1. As a

    25 municipality bordering on municipalities of the

  71. 1 HZ/Croatian Croatian Community/Herbage-Bosna Since is

    2 to be included in the defence system of HZ

    3 Herceg-Bosna.

    4 "2. Ensure the duality of character of the

    5 political and defence activities of HDZ branches in the

    6 areas of Since which border on Travnik, Vitez, and

    7 Busovaca. Such duality of character and co-operation

    8 would be carried out through municipal boards, and such

    9 character would refer to the following branches," and

    10 they're then listed.

    11 Paragraph 3: "Command of the Travnik

    12 regional community and the Command of the Since

    13 municipality should hold a joint meeting and agree on

    14 specific implementation of the above.

    15 "A meeting with the representatives of

    16 HOS/Croatian Defence Force/(HSP)/Croatian Party of

    17 Rights, from the district of Travnik and Since should

    18 be arranged as part of these meetings.

    19 "Mr. Dario Kordic will co-ordinate this

    20 activity."

    21 Did you know anything of this decision before

    22 it was made?

    23 A. A moment ago, we were saying that it was

    24 necessary to include these gentlemen in the defence

    25 system, the gentlemen who were in the HOS, which was

  72. 1 also a paramilitary formation that developed from the

    2 Croatian Party of Rights. I think Mr. Jadranko and --

    3 what's his name -- I think it was Marko Kraljevic, who

    4 was killed later on during the war, were in it. But

    5 this is mere parlance, envisaging the inclusion of

    6 Since in the defence system of Busovaca, because

    7 Since in those days already had a more organised HDZ

    8 in military terms, and there was no need for the HDZ of

    9 Since to join the municipal organisation of the HDZ of

    10 Busovaca, except to make a whole -- both of them

    11 together to form a single region.

    12 But the point was that the HOS organisation

    13 should be placed under the command or control of the

    14 HVO; that is, that all the political organisations

    15 should be placed under the control of the Croatian

    16 Democratic Union.

    17 Q. Just to deal with one detail, you referred to

    18 the man Kraljevic. What role did he occupy, what job

    19 did he have?

    20 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation) I think that

    21 later, as far as I know, he was engaged with the

    22 police. He was very much involved in the police work

    23 and its activities in the region. As for HOS, I don't

    24 know. But I know that he was killed. I am not sure

    25 whether it was in a traffic accident or whether he was

  73. 1 assassinated.

    2 Q. And Kraljevic, what were his views, if you

    3 knew them, so far as integration of the ethnic groups

    4 within Bosnia-Herzegovina or separation of the ethnic

    5 groups within Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    6 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation) with

    7 Mr. Kraljevic, I spoke with Mr. Kraljevic about 10

    8 times or so. Regardless of instructions of the

    9 municipal board of the HDZ of Busovaca, I had private

    10 conversations with him. It was very hard to establish

    11 contact with him, because this man at first used

    12 stimulants, which was something quite unacceptable, so

    13 that one couldn't have normal conversations with him as

    14 to the way in which the defence should be organised.

    15 Generally-speaking, in conversation and in

    16 communication, he was a very difficult person, in the

    17 sense that he would not -- he did not like dialogue.

    18 MR. NICE: Very well. Exhibit 62, please.

    19 While these are being distributed, I'm going

    20 to ask the Chamber, at the end of the morning, for a

    21 private session, which may take a few minutes but

    22 probably not more than five. I don't know how pressed

    23 the individual members of the Chamber are to be away

    24 promptly at 1.00. I mention it now. We're obviously

    25 happy to sit until any hour, but if the Chamber is

  74. 1 pressed, it should know that I'm going to want a couple

    2 of minutes in private session at the end of the

    3 morning. But I only mention it now because we've still

    4 got a quarter of an hour to go, and I don't want to

    5 cause a problem.

    6 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we'll adjourn the

    8 hearing generally at five to 1.00 and hear your

    9 application then.

    10 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

    11 Q. Document 62 is -- I'm sorry about the quality

    12 of the photocopy, Mr. Cicak. Again, it's the best that

    13 we can manage. It's a military secret document, dated

    14 the 21st of March, being a request to the Ministry of

    15 Defence of the Republic of Croatia but headed "Meeting

    16 with the Minister of Defence." It reads as follows:

    17 "At the meeting of the commanders of Central Bosnia

    18 held on the 17th of March in Busovaca, a meeting with

    19 the Minister of Defence of the Republic of Croatia,

    20 Mr. Susak, was considered imperative. We would like to

    21 request a meeting with you in order to inform you about

    22 the current situation in Central Bosnia and the

    23 problems we encounter and to receive your

    24 instructions." The list of those representatives to

    25 attend follows, including Mr. Dario Kordic, set out as

  75. 1 being head of the crisis committee for Central Bosnia,

    2 vice-president of the Croatian Community of

    3 Herceg-Bosna.

    4 Did you know anything about the visit of

    5 Mr. Susak or the requested visit of Mr. Susak to this

    6 area.

    7 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation) in relation to

    8 this document, we had several discussions in the

    9 municipal committee or in a narrower group of the

    10 crisis staff or of the HDZ of the municipal committee

    11 of Busovaca. However, the point is the following: We

    12 could not get the right person from Zagreb who could

    13 explain the overall situation to us; that is to say, in

    14 the Republic of Zagreb --

    15 THE INTERPRETER: Says the witness.

    16 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation)-- and at all

    17 the front lines in Slovenia and in other places. So we

    18 sought direction information, and never, ever did we

    19 manage to get this kind of information. And Mr. Gojko

    20 Susak absolutely could not come to Busovaca. He was

    21 probably prevented from doing so because of his

    22 commitments in the Republic of Croatia.

    23 Q. Exhibit 63. For the assistance of the Court,

    24 this is the penultimate newspaper article by the

    25 witness, and then there will follow the article in

  76. 1 reply by the first defendant, and then we'll go on to

    2 deal with the facts. Now, it obviously won't be at

    3 this session. We'll go on to deal with the facts of

    4 what happened to this witness after this exchange of

    5 newspaper articles.

    6 This one has been, I think, fully

    7 translated. I'll probably just deal with it by five to

    8 1.00.

    9 Will you please have before you the

    10 original -- I'm so sorry -- the original text and

    11 follow as I read?

    12 This newspaper article, headed, "What

    13 Herceg-Bosna, Which Dario Kordic," reads: "On the 5th

    14 of March, 1992, on the afternoon news hour, Radio

    15 Sarajevo reported the news from a journalist in Novi

    16 Travnik that a major blockade of roads from Travnik to

    17 Busovaca, Vitez and the mouth of the Lasva Valley would

    18 be undertaken on that day.

    19 "On that occasion, listeners of Radio

    20 Sarajevo were informed that the Croatian Community of

    21 Herceg-Bosna, that is, its Vice-President Dario Kordic

    22 from Busovaca had organised the blockade. It was also

    23 said that they abandoned their intention because

    24 circumstances had changed and after the crises

    25 headquarters for the region made up of the 11

  77. 1 municipalities in the Lasva River Valley, the so-called

    2 region of Travnik, had met.

    3 "It was also said that the arrival of the

    4 Deputy Prime Minister Mohamed Cengic and General

    5 Kukanjac was expected to Novi Travnik for talks.

    6 "Please print the following, so that

    7 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina can learn the whole

    8 truth:

    9 "1. The Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

    10 was never established with the will and the authority

    11 of the Croat peoples and a statutory decision of the BH

    12 HDZ in Sarajevo, but it was formed of the fruit of the

    13 ill spirit of extreme mental incompetents from the HDZ

    14 Croatian Democratic Union gathered around Mate Boban.

    15 "2. At the secret meeting in Grude on the

    16 18th of November, they elected themselves as leaders of

    17 the non-existent Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    18 Mate Boban elected himself president, Dario Kordic and

    19 Vlado Santic elected themselves vice-presidents, and

    20 Ignac Kostroman elected himself secretary. That could

    21 only have been done by a mad political association.

    22 "3. Also, the regional community of the BH

    23 HDZ Croatian Democratic Union for Bosnia and

    24 Herzegovina for Travnik was never established through

    25 the will of the Croat peoples and the decision of the

  78. 1 BH HDZ of Central Bosnia in Sarajevo. As such, it does

    2 not exist.

    3 "4. To claim that any crises headquarters was

    4 ever founded and established through the will of the

    5 Croat peoples and a decision of the BH HDZ Sarajevo

    6 central board and decisions of the municipal assemblies

    7 in the region is not true.

    8 "5. The self-proclaimed, mad, nationalist

    9 heads of the non-existent Croatian Community of

    10 Herceg-Bosna, Mate Boban, Dario Kordic, Vlado Santic

    11 and Ignac Kostroman, have no authority at all from the

    12 Croat peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there is no

    13 statutory decision of the BH HDZ central board in

    14 Sarajevo that they can represent Croats in

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    16 "6. Not one of the 30 municipal assemblies

    17 that apparently make up the non-existent Croatian

    18 Community of Herceg-Bosna has ever passed a decision at

    19 its session about the establishment of the Croatian

    20 Community of Herceg-Bosna, nor did any of them call for

    21 a referendum of the Croat peoples so that they could

    22 express their opinion.

    23 "7. The Croat peoples did not authorise Mate

    24 Boban, Dario Kordic and Ignac Kostroman to organise in

    25 their name and erect throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina

  79. 1 various roadblocks, organise armed road gangs, hit the

    2 unarmed Croat workers and citizens with weapons, and

    3 implement the other illegal, mad and deadly activities

    4 for the Croat and other peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    5 "These ill-spirited people took this right,

    6 endangering the lives of the innocent citizens of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    8 "8. The self-proclaimed heads of the

    9 non-existent Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna are very

    10 worried, in the name of the Republic of Croatia, that

    11 the army does not get its hands on weapons produced in

    12 the factory in Novi Travnik. If the Republic of

    13 Croatia and its President Tudjman are so interested in

    14 such weapons, why don't they send 150 million

    15 Deutschemark for salaries for the workers in the

    16 factory. Then weapons would remain in the storerooms,

    17 and the workers would not go hungry because they have

    18 not been paid.

    19 "The Croat, Serb and Muslim peoples living in

    20 Herceg-Bosna, in Kresevo, Fojnica, Kiseljak, Busovaca,

    21 Vitez, Novi Travnik and Travnik have for centuries

    22 co-existed together. Many wars have gone by, many

    23 states have changed, but the peoples on this land did

    24 not raise arms against each other.

    25 "That is why the attempt of mad extremists

  80. 1 from any party to disrupt Croats, Serbs and Muslims,

    2 start a civil war and realise their mad aims, is

    3 useless. If the Bosnia-Herzegovina government, that

    4 is, its Deputy Prime Minister Mohamed Cengic and

    5 General Kukanjac come for talks with the

    6 self-proclaimed mad leaders of the non-existent Croatian

    7 Community of Herceg-Bosna, then the Bosnia-Herzegovina

    8 government and Deputy Prime Minister," and they are

    9 named, "are placing themselves on the same spiritual

    10 level as the others. They cannot allow something like

    11 that, can they? They cannot allow themselves something

    12 like that, can they?

    13 "11. The public, and especially the Croats in

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, have to be told the truth, that

    15 there are many self-proclaimed and non-existent

    16 political association in Bosnia-Herzegovina, never

    17 established through the will of the Croat peoples.

    18 "They were created as the fruits of madness

    19 and the minds of Croatian nationalistic extremists.

    20 With this act the already seriously shaken and almost

    21 ruined reputation of the BH HDZ, with its central board

    22 in Sarajevo and its legitimate President Stjepan

    23 Kljuic, as the real political representatives of the

    24 Croat peoples, has been seriously endangered.

    25 "Thank you for allowing me this space and

  81. 1 time. By publishing these true facts, you will

    2 contribute to the Croat people finding out the truth,

    3 and with them the other citizens of

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Perhaps that will incite the other

    5 people so that they too will also tell their people the

    6 truth about certain their non-existent and

    7 self-proclaimed political associations.

    8 "That would be the proper thing to do."

    9 And, Mr. Cicak, was that article a faithful

    10 representation of your views at the time?

    11 MR. STEIN: May it please the Court, since

    12 the witness has taken off his headset throughout the

    13 entire recitation, and unless he speaks English, he

    14 cannot answer the question.

    15 JUDGE MAY: It's five to 1.00. We'll adjourn

    16 now.

    17 Mr. Cicak, would you be back, please, on

    18 Monday morning at the same time, 9.45, when your

    19 examination will continue?

    20 A. May I just say this, Your Honour? The

    21 gentleman who spoke a few minutes ago, I actually want

    22 to say something in connection with what he said. I

    23 understood every word that was said. I know that text,

    24 and what he said was nonsense.

    25 Thank you. I'll be back on Monday.

  82. 1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Monday morning.

    2 MR. NICE: It's possible you'll want the

    3 witness, in light of what I'm going to raise in the

    4 private session -- I can do it in his presence or his

    5 absence, probably preferable in his absence, but he may

    6 have to come back.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Since he's here --

    8 MR. NICE: To save him the walk, can we go

    9 into private session?

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cicak, would you remain a

    11 moment? Yes, we'll go into private session.

    12 (Private session)


    14 Pages 1287-1291 redacted - private session



    17 Monday morning.

    18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    19 at 1.05 p.m., to be reconvened on

    20 Monday, the 26th day of April, 1999,

    21 at 9.45 a.m.