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  1. 1 Monday, 10th May, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

    7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, was there a matter you

    9 wanted to raise?

    10 MR. NICE: A couple of matters that I need to

    11 raise at least in private session, possibly in closed

    12 session. It shan't take very long. May we go into

    13 private session first?

    14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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    23 (Open session)

    24 MR. NICE:

    25 Q. Your name is Muhamed Mujezinovic, born in

  14. 1 1949, a doctor by profession?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. A graduate from Sarajevo, you returned

    4 from -- you went to Vitez to work in Vitez as a doctor,

    5 specialising in internal medicine, in the mid-1980s,

    6 working in a medical centre in Vitez and in the general

    7 hospital in Travnik? You could say "Yes" when I come

    8 to the end of a passage.

    9 A. Yes, except that my first job was in Doboj.

    10 I was a general practitioner in Doboj first.

    11 Q. Did you also specialise in occupational

    12 medicine and occupational diseases, and were you active

    13 as a doctor in the sports clubs in Vitez, also working

    14 occasionally for the Red Cross?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Thank you. I can move to the second topic,

    17 and no doubt those representing the defendants will

    18 tell me if and when they want me to stop asking leading

    19 questions.

    20 Until 1990, in Vitez, was there simply one

    21 political party, but in 1990 did several parties and,

    22 in particular, did nationalist parties emerge?

    23 A. Until 1990, there was one leading party in

    24 Vitez, the League of Communists. There was the

    25 socialist alliance of the working people and the youth

  15. 1 organisation. But by and large, it was all under the

    2 umbrella of the League of Communists.

    3 Q. And then after 1990, did nationalist parties

    4 emerge, namely the Croatian Democratic Community, the

    5 Serbian Democratic Party and the SDA as the nationalist

    6 parties?

    7 A. Yes, they emerged.

    8 Q. And the other parties you've listed in the

    9 past and can list again, if asked? I'm not going to

    10 ask you to list them. I'm just saying you can list

    11 them, if asked?

    12 A. Yes, I can list them.

    13 Q. The first president of the HDZ in Vitez was

    14 whom?

    15 A. Professor Anto Valenta, rather, an engineer

    16 of applied chemistry, Anto Valenta.

    17 Q. Was he an acquaintance or friend of yours or

    18 not?

    19 A. Well, we knew one another, but we were not

    20 friends. Nor were we enemies.

    21 Q. So far as the SDA is concerned, its first

    22 president was who?

    23 A. Hajrudin Karic, an electrical engineer.

    24 Q. And the second president was whom?

    25 A. Munib Kajmovic, a history professor in Vitez.

  16. 1 Q. He took the office of president roughly when,

    2 if you can recall?

    3 A. The latter half of 1991.

    4 Q. Were you involved in the party as a member

    5 from an early stage or not?

    6 A. I became a member of the SDA sometime in

    7 September 1990, and I began to actively work there in

    8 the latter half of '91 as a member of the executive

    9 board of the Party For Democratic Action in Vitez and

    10 one of the vice-chairmen of the executive board of the

    11 Party for Democratic Action in Vitez.

    12 Q. Until that time, had you been involved

    13 actively in politics before at all?

    14 A. [No interpretation]

    15 Q. As vice-chairman, did you have the duty of

    16 standing in for the president or chairman in his

    17 absence?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Incidentally, the transcript omits the answer

    20 "no" for what I think we all heard as a negative at

    21 page 16, line 7.

    22 But what was the focus of your interest at

    23 that stage in political activity?

    24 A. Are you referring to the Party of Democratic

    25 Action?

  17. 1 Q. Within that, was there an organisation called

    2 Merhamet?

    3 A. Yes. Upon the initiative of the executive

    4 board of the SDA party, a humanitarian organisation of

    5 the Muslims of Vitez was formed called Merhamet, as

    6 well as the cultural society of the Muslims of Vitez

    7 called Preporod or Rebirth, of which I was also the

    8 vice-president. I was the vice-president of Merhamet

    9 and of Preporod or Rebirth.

    10 Q. And did those organisations take some of your

    11 time?

    12 A. Yes. I worked as a doctor in Vitez and as a

    13 doctor in the internal medicine ward in the hospital in

    14 Travnik, and in my free time, as a volunteer, I engaged

    15 in these other activities.

    16 Q. Until 1991, what had the relations between

    17 the different ethnic groups in Vitez been like? Had

    18 they been unhappy or happy or a mixture? You tell us.

    19 A. As far as I know, in Vitez, in 1991, as the

    20 elections had taken place in November 1990, a new

    21 municipal parliament had been formed. I was not a

    22 member or a deputy in that parliament, which means that

    23 I didn't attend, but I was a member of the executive

    24 board of the SDA party.

    25 Q. I think you're misunderstanding my question,

  18. 1 so I'm going to cut you short, and it's my fault.

    2 Forget about politics just for the time being.

    3 Generally in Vitez, until 1990, 1991, in your

    4 experience how had the different ethnic groups got on,

    5 one with another?

    6 A. As far as I know, there were no major

    7 problems. As far as I know, there were no big problems

    8 in 1991.

    9 Q. Was there any friction between the groups?

    10 A. There was tension because there was a war

    11 going on in Croatia. We also had some refugees from

    12 Croatia, Eastern Croatia. It was tense, in view of the

    13 fact that in the neighbourhood, there was a war.

    14 Q. But before the war, what had relations been

    15 like between the different ethnic groups?

    16 A. I had been working in Vitez since September

    17 1979. I was frequently in a position to attend

    18 investigations, on-site investigations, in the case of

    19 traffic accidents, together with inspectors, and I do

    20 not know of a single case of any kind of conflict

    21 between members of various ethnic groups in Vitez,

    22 because in Vitez there were Croats, Serbs, Muslims,

    23 Slovenians, Macedonians. There were people from all

    24 over Yugoslavia living there.

    25 Q. Was there any pattern of mixed marriage, that

  19. 1 is, marriage by people of different ethnic backgrounds?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. We return then to matters of politics in the

    4 administration of Vitez.

    5 Following the November 1990 elections, the

    6 municipal parliament or assembly, did it have a total

    7 of some 60 delegates?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And were the seats held as follows: HDZ, 23;

    10 SDA, 16; Serbians Democratic, --

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. -- two; League of Communists, nine; Reformist

    13 party, seven; Democratic Union of Socialist Youths,

    14 two; Democratic Union of Socialists, one, or something

    15 like that?

    16 A. The Democratic Union had one deputy; the

    17 Socialist Youth Alliance had two, and the Democratic

    18 Socialist Alliance, one.

    19 Q. The first president of the assembly, was that

    20 Ivan Santic?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And did the assembly have authority over the

    23 various levels of municipal government?

    24 A. It was the highest-level body of authority in

    25 Vitez, so it did have competence over all walks of life

  20. 1 in Vitez.

    2 Q. The government itself, or the executive board

    3 as I think it may have been called, was that chaired by

    4 Faud Kaknjo?

    5 A. The executive council was the executive body

    6 of the municipal assembly, and its president was Faud

    7 Kaknjo.

    8 Q. And so the chairman of the assembly, Ivan

    9 Santic, was a Croat. The chairman of the executive

    10 board, Kaknjo, was he a Muslim?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. As you said at the beginning, you were no

    13 part of the assembly or, indeed, of the government. Is

    14 that right?

    15 A. I was not.

    16 Q. Meanwhile, Valenta was chairman of the party

    17 until sometime in 1992?

    18 A. I think he was president of the party until

    19 mid-1992, but I'm not sure of the exact date.

    20 Q. In any event, when he ceased to be president,

    21 did Pero Skopljak become president?

    22 A. As far as I know, yes.

    23 Q. Were you first aware of the existence of

    24 something called Herceg-Bosna at some stage in 1991?

    25 A. I first heard of the Croatian Community of

  21. 1 Herceg-Bosna in November 1991. The SDA deputies told

    2 us about it at a meeting of the executive board of the

    3 SDA party in Vitez.

    4 Q. Were you later told about it by Mr. Santic?

    5 A. No, I heard it from the deputies. They asked

    6 Mr. Ivan Santic what "Herceg-Bosna" meant, and his

    7 answer was, in those days, was that it was a cultural

    8 community of Croats which was not a threat to other

    9 peoples or to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    10 Q. Did the creation of Herceg-Bosna change the

    11 atmosphere in Vitez at all at that stage or not?

    12 A. In fact, the first problems actually arose in

    13 Vitez at that time; first, quite insignificant, but in

    14 time they gained in intensity.

    15 Q. What sort of problems then at that early

    16 stage?

    17 A. At the proposal of representatives of the

    18 HDZ, a crisis staff was formed in Vitez. I became a

    19 member of that crisis staff.

    20 Q. We'll come to the crisis staff in a minute.

    21 Just if you can in a sentence or so, particularise the

    22 difficulties that flowed between November '91 and

    23 February of '92 from this creation of Herceg-Bosna.

    24 Can you give any examples, please?

    25 A. I can. In the municipal assembly, the

  22. 1 question was addressed to the chairperson as to what

    2 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was. Reports

    3 were coming in from the ground that the Croatian people

    4 were being armed at an accelerated pace, and this was

    5 denied by the chief of police in Vitez, Miro Skopljak,

    6 at the assembly meeting. I heard about this from

    7 deputies at a meeting of the executive board of the

    8 SDA. He said that these were fabrications.

    9 At that time, a company was formed in Vitez

    10 called Vitez Trade, mostly composed of representatives

    11 of the HDZ, and it exported from Vitez explosives and

    12 gunpowder, and as far as we heard and saw, it was

    13 importing from Croatia weapons, bringing in money. In

    14 those days, we called it Mosunjke. This money was

    15 distributed among the Croats.

    16 And in that period, there was also a killing

    17 in the village of Zvizda. A Serb was killed. Cvijan

    18 Mijatovic was his name.

    19 In another village, Tolovici in Vitez

    20 municipality, this village was inhabited two thirds

    21 with Serbs and one third Muslims, and there were

    22 incidents between the villages of Preocica and the

    23 village of Tolovici.

    24 Q. Were any of these events linked, in your mind

    25 or in the discussion of other Muslims, with the

  23. 1 formation of Herceg-Bosna or not?

    2 A. At the time, we didn't believe it, but

    3 unfortunately it turned out to be true.

    4 Q. Let's move, then, to the crisis committee

    5 that you had started to tell us about, formed in the

    6 spring of 1992. What was the date on which it was

    7 formed?

    8 A. It was formed in the spring, perhaps February

    9 or March. I don't recall the exact date.

    10 Q. Why? Why was it formed?

    11 A. Upon the proposal of a representative of the

    12 HDZ, because of the very serious situation and the

    13 immediate threat of war. And the purpose of the crisis

    14 staff was to assume the duties of the municipal

    15 assembly.

    16 I became a member of the crisis staff, in

    17 charge of the formation of the medical service under

    18 wartime or extraordinary conditions. My assistant was

    19 Bruno Buzuk, a doctor, a dentist, work in Vitez.

    20 Q. Thereafter, how regularly did the crisis

    21 staff meet?

    22 A. The crisis staff met very frequently, and the

    23 president of the crisis staff was Ivan Santic. His

    24 deputy was Faud Kaknjo. Depending on the need, they

    25 would convene the crisis staff.

  24. 1 Q. Again, I'm not going to ask you to list all

    2 the members. You've done so in the past and can, no

    3 doubt, list members, if asked. But is it right that

    4 the crisis staff was expanded from politicians to

    5 include representatives of industries and factories?

    6 A. We had, in Vitez, two crisis staffs. One was

    7 at the level of the Vitez municipality, and another was

    8 at the level of chemical factories in Vitez. I was a

    9 member of both of these crisis staffs.

    10 The chairman and deputy of the municipal

    11 crisis staffs would convene people to attend from

    12 public life, the economy, politics, individuals they

    13 thought would be helpful in dealing with certain

    14 problems as they arose.

    15 But the permanent members were 10, and the

    16 others would be occasionally invited to attend. I

    17 don't know whether later on the managers of these

    18 factories became full-fledged members.

    19 Q. At this early stage of the crisis staff, were

    20 the various ethnic groups working together in harmony

    21 or not?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. For how long did the crisis staff operate?

    24 A. The crisis staff, as far as I can recall,

    25 operated from mid-March, or maybe February, until

  25. 1 mid-June. It operated -- actually, it acted in line

    2 with the purpose for which it was formed. That is, it

    3 had the competencies of the municipal assembly.

    4 Q. Before we come to the end of that period in

    5 June, let me deal with -- or I'll let you deal with a

    6 couple of events happening in May.

    7 First, simply as an example of the

    8 documentation that was raised, Exhibit 103, please.

    9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before this document

    10 is distributed, the number is incorrect, but perhaps if

    11 we can change it by hand to "103.1", that will solve

    12 the problem. It's not listed in our list of exhibits

    13 for reasons that will become clear. May the witness

    14 have one?

    15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

    16 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, we appear to be

    17 venturing into matters in controversy now, so I think

    18 it might make some sense for the Prosecution to proceed

    19 by way of normal rules of direct examination rather

    20 than leading questions. They invited us to make an

    21 observation at the appropriate point, and I think this

    22 is the time. Thank you.

    23 MR. NICE:

    24 Q. This document, in the copy I have, has the

    25 original on one side and the English version on the

  26. 1 other. If you would just look, please, at the original

    2 B/C/S version, "Yes" or "No", does this appear to you

    3 to be the photocopy of a genuine document?

    4 A. This document is not signed, but otherwise, I

    5 think it is. Mention is made of my name here, which

    6 means I was present at the crisis staff meeting held on

    7 the 12th of May, 1992, and at that time I was given

    8 specific assignments. I can explain which they were.

    9 Q. We need only look at item number 4, which

    10 says that, "Dr. Mujezinovic is charged with delivering

    11 to the Vitez Medical Centre a part of the supply of

    12 antibiotics from the available medical supplies." Was

    13 that indeed one of the duties that was imposed on you?

    14 A. Yes, I already said that I was charged with

    15 forming the medical service under wartime conditions.

    16 In the chemical factories in Vitez, we had quite a

    17 large quantity of medical supplies, because their

    18 production was in this line of work, and this was the

    19 material for which Mario Cerkez was in charge, and I

    20 was given instruction that I should take medical

    21 supplies from the SDS, and together with Bruno Buzuk

    22 that we should distribute it throughout the network of

    23 outpatient clinics in the field. Most of that material

    24 was to have been given to the medical centre in Vitez,

    25 or its reserve location in the event of war, and at the

  27. 1 motel.

    2 Q. That's at the moment, I think, all I want.

    3 Thank you.

    4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may we go into

    5 private session, just for about three questions? It

    6 relates to the topic I raised earlier this morning.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    8 (Private session)

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    9 (Open session).

    10 MR. NICE:

    11 Q. Was there one meeting in the period March to

    12 June of 1992, one meeting of the crisis staff, where

    13 Anto Valenta said something that you can remember

    14 particularly about the future?

    15 A. At the end of April 1992, at one of the

    16 crisis staff meetings, towards the very end of it, Anto

    17 Valenta, who was then president of the HDZ for Vitez,

    18 said in passing to us that the Muslims of Vitez and the

    19 others must place themselves under the command of the

    20 HVO, and that they must accept that, because he said

    21 that in Vitez at the time the HVO of Vitez was 90

    22 per cent armed, that according to his assessment, the

    23 Muslims were armed 10 per cent. He also mentioned the

    24 HOS, which was operating in Vitez. He said that the

    25 HOS had no importance for the HVO.

  29. 1 At the time, we couldn't believe this. What

    2 is more, the chairman, Ivan Santic, said, "Come on,

    3 Anto, you always complicate things." And his answer

    4 was, "No, I'm not joking. You just think this over."

    5 Q. The HVO, when had you first been aware of

    6 that, as a body?

    7 A. I learnt about the HVO in the first half of

    8 1992.

    9 Q. When you first learnt of it, what was it?

    10 What did it do?

    11 A. It was a military formation in Vitez.

    12 Q. By the time that Valenta said what you've

    13 described his saying, was it just a military

    14 organisation, or had it started to assume other

    15 responsibilities?

    16 A. At that time, it was only a military

    17 formation.

    18 Q. And so in light of what was said by Santic

    19 and about him by his colleague, did you take what he

    20 said seriously, or not?

    21 A. Well, to tell you quite honestly, we were

    22 very worried, that would be perhaps the best word,

    23 because at that time, we were agreeing together, or

    24 rather took a decision at the crisis staff to take away

    25 the weapons from the former army, the JNA, because

  30. 1 those weapons were the property of the Territorial

    2 Defence, and the former army had taken it away and

    3 stored it in its base in a village called Slimena, near

    4 Travnik.

    5 So the crisis committee decided that the TO,

    6 the HVO, should together take away those weapons. I

    7 was the medical security. I believe it was done on the

    8 4th of May, '92. But we were very worried by Anto

    9 Valenta's statement.

    10 Q. And was your initial reaction that you should

    11 do what he proposed, or not?

    12 A. We thought right at the beginning -- I mean,

    13 that question was raised at the SDA executive board.

    14 We thought we should not place ourselves under the

    15 command of the HVO. We thought we should have a joint

    16 Defence force. We thought we even suggested that the

    17 commander of these joint armed forces in Vitez be

    18 Mr. Franjo Petrac. We did not object to having a Croat

    19 as the joint commander of the TO and HVO at the time.

    20 Q. The next topic, the murder of somebody called

    21 Samir Trako: Can you help us with that? When did this

    22 happen?

    23 A. It happened sometime around the 20th of

    24 May, '92, in the late hours. Well, generally speaking,

    25 the chairman of the crisis staff, Mr. Santic, called me

  31. 1 and asked me to come urgently to a meeting of the

    2 crisis staff in his office. He did not tell me the

    3 reason. So I went there, and in his office, other

    4 members of the crisis staff were present, and Mario

    5 Cerkez was also there, sitting, when Mr. Ivan Santic

    6 explained to us why he had called us to the crisis

    7 staff. He said that an unpleasant incident had

    8 happened, that a TO member had been killed, that two

    9 had been arrested, and called upon all of us to prevail

    10 upon people in the town to calm the situation down.

    11 Then the floor was taken by Cerkez, by Mario

    12 Cerkez, who at that time was the HVO commander, the

    13 commander of the HVO staff in Vitez, and he explained

    14 the circumstances under which that thing happened. He

    15 seemed to me under the influence of alcohol. He said

    16 that three young men had come to the brewery in the

    17 basement of the hotel, that they sat at the bar, that

    18 they behaved very provocatively, that they asked for

    19 drinks, and that at the exit from the hotel, that they

    20 also challenged Miro Vukadinovic, an HVO guard, and

    21 that he fired at one of them, and that he was then

    22 killed, and that the HVO military police arrested the

    23 other two.

    24 The crisis staff then decided to conduct an

    25 investigation and that the two arrested soldiers of the

  32. 1 Territorial Defence from Vitez be handed over to the

    2 military police of the Territorial Defence in Vitez.

    3 It was also decided that a team should go and notify

    4 the family that that young man had been killed. I was

    5 on that team, also the police commander, Saban

    6 Mahmutovic, Fuad Kaknjo as the deputy chairman of the

    7 crisis staff, and at that time I offered even Santic to

    8 join us because he also enjoyed great prestige in

    9 Vitez, but he refused and said that we, the Muslims,

    10 should solve it amongst ourselves.

    11 Mario Cerkez telephoned from the office and

    12 ordered to hand over the two arrested to the TO

    13 military police and promised that they would be brought

    14 and turned over straight away. Fuad Kaknjo, Saban

    15 Mahmutovic, and I were in front of the building waiting

    16 for the HVO military police to bring those two arrested

    17 soldiers. We waited for an hour, and they still did

    18 not turn up in front of the hotel.

    19 I saw Ivan Budimir, who was the commander of

    20 the military police, the Croatian Defence Council, in

    21 Vitez, and I went to ask him why those arrested TO

    22 members weren't coming. He told me, "Doctor, I called

    23 twice. There's a hitch somewhere. Something is

    24 happening." I knew Ivan Budimir very well, because he

    25 was the coach of the football team in Vitez, and I was

  33. 1 the deputy chairman of the club board.

    2 So I asked him, "How could that happen?" And

    3 he told me, "Doctor, don't you see that Mario is

    4 drunk? He came after those young men, from the hotel

    5 after those young men and fired a shot at the last

    6 one. We did all we could to save him, but

    7 unfortunately he was dead. We transferred him to the

    8 Travnik hospital by our vehicle, but he was dead."

    9 He promised that he would still insist on

    10 releasing the two arrested ones.

    11 After that, we went to the --

    12 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt. Doctor,

    13 you've been speaking for some time, and we need --

    14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge May,

    15 please.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, you've been speaking for

    17 some time, and we need a pause for a moment.

    18 You suggest, in speaking to Budimir, you

    19 asked, "How could that happen?" And he said, "Don't

    20 you see that Mario is drunk? He came after those young

    21 men from the hotel and fired a shot at the last one.

    22 We did what we could to save him, but unfortunately he

    23 was dead."

    24 Mr. Nice, I wonder if you could clarify that

    25 passage, please.

  34. 1 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly. Incidentally,

    2 with witnesses like this witness, where the long

    3 narrative answer is the material, but in the event I

    4 want, I'm not going to interrupt him, because it only

    5 takes time. So it was a long answer, but in fact he

    6 was covering the territory that I wanted him to cover.

    7 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, just clarify, please,

    8 though, that last part of your account. Ivan Budimir

    9 was telling you something in answer to what question?

    10 What were you really-- what did you ask him, first of

    11 all?

    12 A. I asked Ivan Budimir how did the incident

    13 happen, how did it come about, how the man was killed.

    14 And he answered, "Didn't you realise, Doctor, that

    15 Mario was drunk? When those young men were coming out

    16 from the hotel, he followed them and fired at the last

    17 one." I'm only conveying the words of Ivan Budimir.

    18 Q. How long before your meeting with Mario

    19 Cerkez did you understand that the death had occurred?

    20 A. I learnt about it at the meeting itself.

    21 JUDGE MAY: One moment, Doctor; there's an

    22 objection.

    23 Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

    24 MR. KOVACIC: Mr. President, we're on the

    25 brink of hearsay right now, and will you ask the

  35. 1 Prosecutor, so as not to waste more time later, will

    2 you ask the Prosecutor to ask the witness if the

    3 mentioned Budimir is alive or not and about his

    4 whereabouts, so that we could have confirmed the

    5 information mentioned by the witness. Only then can we

    6 really decide whether it is hearsay or not.

    7 MR. NICE: I don't know that one follows from

    8 the other, but I'm certainly happy to ask the witness

    9 whether he knows where Ivan Budimir is.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    11 MR. NICE:

    12 Q. Do you know if Ivan Budimir is alive or dead,

    13 Dr. Mujezinovic?

    14 A. About four months ago, I learnt that Ivan

    15 Budimir was no longer alive. I learnt it from my

    16 medical assistant, Franjo Petrac, that he had been

    17 killed in the village of Mosunj. So I asked about Ivan

    18 Budimir, Franjo Petrac, the chief medical technician in

    19 Vitez, in the health centre, because he was an

    20 associate of mine, and I repeated; he told me, "No,

    21 unfortunately, he is no longer with us." I did not

    22 know that before that time.

    23 Q. When, apparently, did he die? When was he

    24 killed?

    25 A. That, I don't know.

  36. 1 Q. And before I come back to the topic of the

    2 conversation that we were most recently dealing with,

    3 what sort of man was Ivan Budimir? What was his job,

    4 what was he like as a man?

    5 A. I worked together with Ivan Budimir in the

    6 football club, and he was a very hardworking man, a man

    7 who taught children football. He was a coach. For

    8 some time he was the chief coach of the soccer club,

    9 and for a while he was assistant coach. For instance,

    10 when I voted who the coach would be, I always voted for

    11 him, because he was a serious and hardworking man.

    12 Q. What was his ethnicity, to use that word?

    13 A. Croat.

    14 Q. And how was he regarded generally in Vitez?

    15 A. In Vitez, before the war and during the war,

    16 I think -- I believe people trusted him, because they

    17 knew him. You know, it's a small place, and everybody

    18 knows the coach of the football team. The football

    19 team, of course, had all the ethnicities represented,

    20 and he was coaching them all.

    21 Q. And how did he die?

    22 A. I don't know that.

    23 Q. Back to the question I was asking you: You

    24 went to this meeting, and you saw Cerkez. You were

    25 informed of the death of Trako. Were you told how long

  37. 1 before the meeting Trako had died, had been killed?

    2 A. No, I wasn't told that. All I was told was

    3 that an incident had taken place, and, as I said

    4 before, the time was not mentioned.

    5 Q. But you noticed Cerkez's condition at the

    6 meeting as being one where he was affected by alcohol?

    7 A. Well, that was how he looked to me, at

    8 least. It seemed to me that he was affected by

    9 alcohol.

    10 Q. What signs was he showing, if you can recall

    11 at this remove of time?

    12 A. I knew Mario Cerkez very well, and here he

    13 was very garrulous, his face was flushed, and as soon

    14 as we asked to have those two released, he immediately

    15 took up the telephone -- he has this mobile one -- and

    16 called -- I mean, I did not know that Mario Cerkez

    17 before. Formerly he was very nice, and we often would

    18 have coffee together at the factory compound.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, I'm sorry to interrupt

    20 you; there's a matter I want to raise with counsel, and

    21 I've raised it with my colleagues.

    22 What is the relevance of this evidence? It's

    23 clearly prejudicial as far as Mr. Cerkez is concerned.

    24 As far as I recollect, there is no account in which

    25 this murder appears.

  38. 1 MR. NICE: No, absolutely right, but it's

    2 plainly of value both in relation to disposition as to

    3 Muslims generally, and, indeed, as to his disposition

    4 generally, which may come up for argument and

    5 consideration later, when the matters more specifically

    6 charged are to be dealt with.

    7 So it's plainly relevant, and we would invite

    8 the Tribunal to carry on hearing the comparatively

    9 limited evidence, limited in terms of time, that will

    10 touch upon it. So far as this witness is concerned, I

    11 have only two more questions to ask which tie it in

    12 with earlier evidence given by, I think, the last

    13 witness or the last witness but one. Then we'll be

    14 done with this topic, and I'll move on to something

    15 else.

    16 JUDGE MAY: It's not the length which

    17 concerns me, the length of the answers; it's whether

    18 it's relevant or not.

    19 MR. NICE: Well, the victim of course was a

    20 Muslim. We are dealing here with the developing state

    21 of thinking and the developing attitudes of the

    22 parties. In due course, the Tribunal will be concerned

    23 with the control of Cerkez, the discipline by Cerkez of

    24 subordinates, and in relation to all of those matters,

    25 this evidence may be very powerful evidence indeed.

  39. 1 In any event, it's now before the Court, and

    2 I would respectfully invite you to -- well, I'll leave

    3 it there.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Stein.

    5 MR. STEIN: As Your Honour notes, the danger

    6 of bad character evidence against Mr. Cerkez is

    7 obvious, and to the extent that we are going to be

    8 tagged in some fashion with command, control,

    9 conspiracy, unity, co-defendants, our association with

    10 someone whose character is being assassinated, while

    11 peripheral, is still a concern to us.

    12 So I suggest again, since this is an

    13 unindicted, uncharged crime now attempted to be proved

    14 circumstantially through a witness who is deceased, and

    15 there's no direct linkage, its attenuation versus its

    16 prejudicial effect is so clear it ought not to be

    17 allowed.

    18 MR. NICE: May I just add one point in

    19 relation to that: Of course, the evidence shows not

    20 only the killing, but it also shows the ability to

    21 control due judicial process at the time. It was to

    22 this, of course, that Zlotrg's evidence was

    23 particularly relevant, and the last two questions I

    24 would ask of this witness would touch on that same

    25 point: What happened, or to be precise, what did not

  40. 1 happen afterwards?

    2 On issues of command and control generally,

    3 and on wider issues, the question whether these

    4 defendants, singularly or as part of a collective body

    5 bearing responsibility, obeyed rules or bent rules to

    6 suit themselves, even at this early stage, is plainly

    7 of potential value. It shows the scale of control they

    8 had and their willingness to abuse it, and it's not

    9 material that can be properly overlooked, in my

    10 respectful submission.

    11 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    12 JUDGE MAY: Well, we will admit the evidence,

    13 but on a limited basis. We think it has some relevance

    14 -- or may have some relevance; it's too early to

    15 say -- as part of the background and as part of the

    16 evidence relating to command and control. We do not

    17 accept it as evidence of bad character, and we bear in

    18 mind and disregard that aspect of the evidence. We also

    19 bear in mind that, of course, it's hearsay evidence

    20 again. We'll have to decide what weight, if any, it

    21 has.

    22 Perhaps you could finish it fairly briefly.

    23 MR. NICE: Certainly.

    24 JUDGE MAY: I just want to add this: One of

    25 the concerns of the Trial Chamber is that we don't get

  41. 1 bogged down, if I can put it that way, in detail about

    2 individual events. I think I've raised this in

    3 relation to this particular event when evidence was

    4 given about it before.

    5 MR. NICE: Yes.

    6 Q. Two other questions, please,

    7 Dr. Mujezinovic. First, was there an investigation

    8 ordered into this death; "Yes" or "No"?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Was it, to your knowledge, ever completed?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Was the man named Vukadinovic ever brought

    13 back to Vitez, or indeed ever heard of again in Vitez?

    14 A. We raised that question. We asked about Miro

    15 Vukadinovic, and at the crisis staff we were told that

    16 he had disappeared from Vitez. The investigation was

    17 conducted in Vitez. Vlado Miskovic, the prosecutor in

    18 district court in Travnik --

    19 Q. We've heard something about this before, and

    20 I'm going to move on.

    21 You told us that the crisis staff only

    22 survived until June of 1992. What brought the crisis

    23 staff to an end?

    24 A. Sometime in mid-June, the building of the

    25 municipal hall and the civilian police was taken over

  42. 1 by HVO soldiers. They disarmed policemen of Muslim

    2 ethnicity, and they kept the building for about three

    3 days. At the time, we did not know what it was all

    4 about.

    5 The chairman of the crisis staff convened a

    6 meeting three or four days later and said that he did

    7 not support that kind of methods, this forcible

    8 take-over of buildings.

    9 Q. Were flags raised?

    10 A. Yes. The flags of the Croatian Community of

    11 Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian state, were hoisted above

    12 those buildings. At that meeting, Anto Valenta made a

    13 comment, saying that this had been done by armed groups

    14 not controlled by the HDZ. Pero Skopljak said that it

    15 had been done by people who could no longer wait,

    16 because the Croat people were awaiting change, and Ivan

    17 Santic, who they class worked in the municipal hall and

    18 as civilian policeman, to come -- I mean Muslims, to

    19 come back to work.

    20 On that occasion, he informed that the HVO

    21 government had been formed in Vitez and asked a Muslim

    22 representative that the officials of Muslim nationality

    23 place themselves under the authority of the

    24 newly-formed Croatian authority in Vitez. He said that

    25 the HVO government had decided that Vitez was to become

  43. 1 part of the union of communities, of municipal

    2 communities within the Croatian Community of

    3 Herceg-Bosna, and that the BH army or, rather,

    4 [indiscernible] In Vitez be also placed under the

    5 command of the HVO staff in Vitez. And he also

    6 requested that the civilian policemen of Muslim

    7 ethnicity work for the civilian police of the Croat

    8 Community of Herceg-Bosna and pursuant to rules and

    9 decrees of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna. Mumib

    10 Kaimovic was talking over this, who took part in a

    11 discussion at that meeting, and I can tell you briefly

    12 what they thought and what they said; that this was an

    13 attack against lawful bodies.

    14 Q. Yes. In fact, were Muslims prepared to join

    15 in with the HVO government, as suggested?

    16 A. At that meeting, that was the first time that

    17 we heard of the HVO government in Vitez, and we took

    18 part in the discussion. When we were invited there, it

    19 was as members of the crisis staff of the municipality

    20 of Vitez, and at that time -- I didn't really

    21 understand the question.

    22 Q. Were Muslims prepared to take part in what

    23 was happening, or what was their attitude to what you

    24 were being told?

    25 A. No. At that time, they were not really ready

  44. 1 to accept it. To begin with, they had no jurisdiction

    2 for that. They said it was an attack against lawful

    3 authorities, that this was breach of sovereignty of the

    4 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that it looked like the

    5 partition of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they did not take

    6 a firm stand at that particular meeting. They refused

    7 this --

    8 Q. Thank you. I'll cut you short again. Two

    9 short questions.

    10 You told us, I think, about the Muslim police

    11 being relieved of their weapons. Were their weapons

    12 returned to them, and were they able to resume their

    13 jobs?

    14 A. Yes, later they were returned those weapons,

    15 and they returned to the joint civilian police and were

    16 there until October '92. There was the joint civilian

    17 police in Vitez, that is, made of Muslims, Croats and

    18 Serbs.

    19 Q. A second short question. At about this time,

    20 were you receiving any personal advice, yourself, or

    21 any personal warnings?

    22 A. In 1992, at that time I personally did not

    23 receive any advice. I worked for the health centre and

    24 in Travnik, and here I was present as a volunteer.

    25 Q. Was there a soldier you knew called by the

  45. 1 name of Miro?

    2 A. Miro? Yes, but -- Miro Saric, Miro

    3 Vukadinovic.

    4 Q. But you --

    5 A. No, I didn't know the man. I didn't know the

    6 man. No, I did not. I know the Vukadinovic family, I

    7 know some of them who live in the village of Kruscica.

    8 But him, no, I did not know him.

    9 MR. NICE: I don't know if the Chamber is

    10 looking for a time, but I see the clock.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now. Half an

    12 hour. For "half an hour", read 20 minutes.

    13 --- Recess taken at 11.17 p.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 11.49 a.m.

    15 MR. NICE:

    16 Q. Staying with the middle of 1992 --

    17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

    18 Mr. Nice.

    19 MR. NICE: I'm very sorry.

    20 Q. Staying in the middle of 1992,

    21 Dr. Mujezinovic, just to see if you can help us with

    22 any statements by any other of the named persons in

    23 whom we have an interest. Skopljak, did he say

    24 anything at about that time, that you can recall?

    25 A. There are several Skopljaks in Vitez. I

  46. 1 don't know who you have in mind.

    2 Q. Pero.

    3 A. Pero Skopljak was the president or, rather,

    4 the head of the civilian police in Vitez until '91 and

    5 in the first half of 1992.

    6 Q. In the first half of 1992, did he say

    7 anything about the future, that you can recall?

    8 A. Pero Skopljak was also a member of the crisis

    9 staff of Vitez municipality. I have already stated --

    10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation)

    11 Counsel Nice, I think the Chamber has a problem with

    12 the way this witness is being interrogated. You are

    13 asking him to say something about the future. We

    14 can't -- you can't talk about the future as much as you

    15 want in a narrative. But these are not questions that

    16 are normally being asked in a criminal trial. You have to

    17 narrow down to focus on the events in the indictment,

    18 and that is the way you can control the procedure.

    19 Thank you for taking this into account.

    20 MR. NICE: I quite understand that, but in

    21 fact the questions I'm asking, in a non-leading form,

    22 are questions as to what, if anything, was said by the

    23 names in whom we have an interest at the time about

    24 what was to come. But if the witness is unable to help

    25 us in relation to the name I've just given --

  47. 1 Q. Did you at the time, in the middle of 1992,

    2 did you know the name Dario Kordic?

    3 A. I met Dario Kordic in the first half of

    4 1992. Before that, I didn't know him.

    5 Q. Did he, in the first half of 1992 or in the

    6 middle, either personally or on the television or the

    7 radio, say anything about what was happening or what

    8 was to come?

    9 A. I don't remember for the first half of 1992.

    10 Q. Very well.

    11 A. I simply cannot remember these things.

    12 Q. Very well. Well, then let's move, finally,

    13 to Mario Cerkez.

    14 You spoke earlier on of his being the HVO

    15 staff commander and also as the HVO commander. Was

    16 there any difference or was that the same, so far as

    17 you were concerned, staff commander and commander?

    18 A. I think I was using it synonymously. I think

    19 it is the same thing.

    20 Q. Very well. He was present at talks in the

    21 first half of 1992. I think you may have said this

    22 already. What, if anything, did he say about the

    23 abilities of the HVO?

    24 A. From that time period, the first half of

    25 1992, as I already said, I only heard from Anto Valenta

  48. 1 what the ability of the HVO in Vitez were. In that

    2 period, I really didn't hear anything from Cerkez.

    3 Q. Can we deal with something called HOS?

    4 You've mentioned it already, and you can deal with it

    5 really quite shortly, certainly at the moment. What

    6 was HOS and when were you first aware of it?

    7 A. HOS, in Vitez, was a military organisation of

    8 the Croatian Party of Rights. There was a unit in

    9 Vitez, the commander of which was Darko Kraljevic. It

    10 operated, I think, at the end of '91 and the first half

    11 of 1992 in Vitez under the name of HOS.

    12 Q. The man Darko Kraljevic, did you have quite a

    13 lot to do with him for particular reasons?

    14 A. I didn't frequently come across Darko

    15 Kraljevic, but on one occasion I was sitting with his

    16 father when he approached our table and had a chat with

    17 us. A second time I met Kraljevic, he was sick, but

    18 otherwise I didn't have any special contact with him.

    19 Q. When he was --

    20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    21 the witness mentioned HOS. I have the transcript here

    22 in English, "in Vitez, was a military organisation of

    23 the Croatian Party of Rights", which was not well

    24 translated into French. The Croat Party of Rights, I

    25 suppose civil rights or human rights. What is that

  49. 1 party? Could we ask the witness, what is that party,

    2 that Croatian Party of Rights which he said was the

    3 party apparently supervising the activities of HOS? So

    4 HOS would be the military arm of the Party of Rights?

    5 A. That is precisely so.

    6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) What is the

    7 Croatian Party of Rights? Could the witness tell us

    8 about that party?

    9 A. That party, in Vitez, did not take part in

    10 the parliamentary elections in 1990. It emerged later

    11 on. It was the extended arm of the Croatian Party of

    12 Rights from Croatia, headed by a man called Paraga, as

    13 far as I can recollect, like the HDZ.

    14 So the Croatian Party of Rights were branches

    15 of the Croatian parties in Croatia of the same name.

    16 They had a military arm called HOS and which, in Vitez,

    17 had its own area. It was well armed. I don't know how

    18 strong it was, how many members it had. But as I said,

    19 the commander of the HOS was Darko Kraljevic, and the

    20 president of the Croatian Party of Rights in Vitez was

    21 a certain man called Franjo Krizanac, also known as

    22 Paraga.

    23 MR. NICE:

    24 Q. This party, was it a right-wing, a left-wing,

    25 a centrist, a reformist party, if it can be categorised

  50. 1 in that way? Or alternatively say it can't be so

    2 categorised.

    3 A. As far as I know, that party, according to

    4 its programme, fought for an independent

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as far as I know. I'm not very

    6 familiar with it. And the president of the Party of

    7 Rights offered, on two or three occasions, closer

    8 cooperation with the SDA in Vitez.

    9 Q. Thank you. Darko Kraljevic was unwell, I

    10 think you said; tell us about that. In what way was he

    11 unwell?

    12 A. I worked on a regular basis in Vitez as a

    13 physician. One morning I came to work, and I had

    14 coffee with my colleagues, Dr. Franjo Tibold from

    15 Vitez, and Zvonko Kajic. They left the room we were

    16 sitting in, and about an hour later they came back and

    17 asked me to go to Darko Kraljevic. I simply said, "I

    18 feel awkward." They said that Darko Kraljevic had had

    19 a heart attack, and they wanted me to examine him. So

    20 I went with them. His men drove us there, to a

    21 building of the Sumarija, the forestry company in

    22 Vitez, in the compound.

    23 Q. Taking the story shortly, when you examined

    24 him, what possible diagnosis did you make?

    25 A. I didn't see any signs of an infarction.

  51. 1 There was tachycardia. He was angry, he was

    2 aggressive, and I gave him a shot for detoxification

    3 from alcohol, one in his vein and another

    4 intramuscular. I gave him diazepam, and after ten or

    5 fifteen minutes, Darko started to curse and to insult

    6 my colleagues, Croats. He said, "You see, I'm feeling

    7 well now; how come you couldn't treat me like that?"

    8 After that, Darko would come to see me at

    9 home, under escort, in civilian clothes, he came to my

    10 home. And I had to stand in front of the surgery when

    11 the nurse was giving Darko Kraljevic a shot.

    12 Q. Why was he being given injections? For what

    13 condition? I want to deal with this quite quickly,

    14 please.

    15 A. I suspected that he was intoxicated by

    16 alcohol or something else.

    17 Q. And the other substance might have

    18 been ... ?

    19 A. I suspected intoxication.

    20 Q. In the course of your encounters with Darko

    21 Kraljevic, did he tell you about what he was doing and

    22 what he was being expected to do?

    23 A. In the course of these sessions when he was

    24 having injections, very often his wife was with him,

    25 and he would say to me that Pero Skopljak, Anto

  52. 1 Valenta, Mario Cerkez, were trying to persuade him to

    2 place himself under the command of the HVO, that he had

    3 to wage war against the Muslims -- or rather that he

    4 should mistreat the Muslims. He told me then that he

    5 would not agree to that.

    6 Q. When you say "mistreat the Muslims," was he

    7 specific as to what was expected of him?

    8 A. To break into houses of the prestigious

    9 individuals, that a kind of intimidation that the

    10 Muslims of Vitez should be got going.

    11 Q. And as to children and women, what, if

    12 anything, were his instructions?

    13 A. Yes -- no, actually, I already said what he

    14 told me. Children, women, individuals of prestige,

    15 that his unit, his soldiers, wanted him to do that.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

    17 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    18 Mr. President, I should like to object once again on

    19 the same grounds. The witness is mentioning as a

    20 source something that Kraljevic said, and for us to be

    21 able to see to what extent this is direct knowledge or

    22 rather hearsay, I should like to ask my learned friend,

    23 the Prosecutor, to ask the witness whether Darko

    24 Kraljevic is alive.

    25 MR. NICE: No problem with that. Again, we

  53. 1 were going to come to it in any event.

    2 Q. Kraljevic: Alive, or dead?

    3 A. As far as I have heard, Kraljevic was killed

    4 after the war in a traffic accident. That is what I

    5 heard. It was -- at the entrance to Vitez, there is a

    6 monument to him.

    7 Q. Back, then, to what you were being told by

    8 Kraljevic -- and it was for this reason I wanted you to

    9 tell us a bit more about his condition -- at the times

    10 he was saying these things to you, how lucid, how clear

    11 did he appear to be in his mind?

    12 A. No, at that time he told me that he wouldn't

    13 accept it, that he was thinking of leaving Bosna with

    14 his family. His family came from Herzegovina. I was

    15 extremely surprised when I later saw Kraljevic on

    16 television as a colonel, as a commander of the military

    17 unit known as Vitezovi, in view of what he said to me.

    18 Q. I'll come to the Vitezovi later, but my

    19 question to you was: How clear was he in his mind when

    20 he told you what was being asked of him by others?

    21 A. At that time, he seemed to me to be quite

    22 okay. He wasn't aggressive. He spoke to me in a

    23 normal tone of voice. I was sitting in the car next to

    24 him. He wasn't shouting; he wasn't aggressive. It was

    25 a normal kind of conversation, under normal conditions,

  54. 1 the way people talk.

    2 Q. HOS survived as a group until when? Can you

    3 recall?

    4 A. I don't know the exact date, but I think in

    5 the second half of '92 they were operating in Vitez as

    6 a military unit of the HVO called Vitezovi.

    7 Q. And Kraljevic, was he in some way involved

    8 with the Vitezovi, and if so, in what way?

    9 A. He was introduced on the media as the

    10 commander of the military unit, the Vitezovi.

    11 Q. Let's turn now to the coordination committee

    12 for the protection of Muslims. Can you tell us,

    13 please, how it came about that that body was formed,

    14 and when?

    15 A. The coordination committee for the protection

    16 of Muslims in Vitez was founded in the first half of

    17 July. In view of the fact that a one-nation HVO

    18 government had been proclaimed in Vitez, that in fact

    19 the legal authorities had been toppled, upon the

    20 initiative of the executive board of the SDA of Vitez,

    21 the president, Munir Kajmovic, invited prominent

    22 Muslims in Vitez and other representatives of parties,

    23 because only 60 per cent of the Muslims had voted for

    24 the SDA whereas 40 per cent of the Muslims had voted

    25 for other parties, and we felt that we could not take

  55. 1 decisions on behalf of all the Muslims of Vitez.

    2 At the meeting, it was agreed that a body be

    3 set up which we called the coordination committee for

    4 the protection of Muslims. It numbered 19 members.

    5 The president of the coordination committee for the

    6 protection of Muslims of Vitez was Fuad Kaknjo, the

    7 president of the executive board of Vitez

    8 municipality.

    9 At that meeting, decisions were taken --

    10 Q. And again, I want to deal with it

    11 comparatively swiftly: Was this committee in any

    12 senses a government or parallel government, or was its

    13 function different from that?

    14 A. Its function was not that of a government,

    15 but rather to monitor in Vitez all walks of life with

    16 respect to any violations of the interests and rights

    17 of Muslims in Vitez, and to address the public through

    18 the media telling them where the rights and interests

    19 of the Muslims had been violated. We gave instructions

    20 that Fuad Kaknjo, as president of the executive

    21 council, should continue working in the executive

    22 council as the legal government in Vitez municipality.

    23 That was our conclusion.

    24 Q. And the overall objectives of this committee

    25 were to do what for life in Vitez, as its real aims?

  56. 1 A. To draw the attention of the public to the

    2 forcible imposition of government in Vitez by a single

    3 ethnic community, and to brief the public as to what

    4 that government was doing in Vitez, how it was

    5 operating, because the newly formed government was

    6 exclusive.

    7 MR. NICE: Exhibit 210, please. Double-sided

    8 for the Court and for the Defence, but two sheets for

    9 the witness.

    10 Q. Is this a press release that went out -- I'm

    11 sorry about the quality of the copy, but is it a press

    12 release that went out on the 10th of September of 1992?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Headed "Co-ordination Board for the

    15 Protection of Muslims' Interests," within the Republic

    16 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Vitez Municipality, and it

    17 sets out here complaint or outrage at a decision, in

    18 particular: "According to the decision of the

    19 so-called Croatian Defence Council ... of 3 September

    20 1992 it has been decided that instruction in elementary

    21 and secondary schools in the municipality ..." should

    22 involve school books published in Croatia, and various

    23 other provisions -- again, in accordance with last

    24 week's practice, I don't need to read the document in

    25 detail unless the Chamber wants me to -- and the

  57. 1 coordination board set out its outrage at this decision

    2 and set out its reasons why.

    3 In the second-to-last paragraph, it called on

    4 the citizens not to respect the decision because it's

    5 to the detriment of the non-Croatian population, and

    6 said that instruction -- that is, instruction in

    7 schools -- would not start on the established date, and

    8 said that this was another example of the so-called

    9 democracy in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    10 Before we turn from this committee, how

    11 effective was it, Dr. Mujezinovic, this committee, in

    12 your judgement? What did it achieve, if anything?

    13 A. That coordinating committee for the

    14 protection of Muslims, apart from taking note of the

    15 violations of rights and interests, and apart from

    16 continuing our coordination with HDZ members, sometime

    17 in August we managed to bring together the main staff

    18 of the Vitez HDZ and Vitez SDA to convene their meeting

    19 and try to see if we could solve, jointly, problems in

    20 Vitez.

    21 At that meeting, we agreed that in Vitez we

    22 should call the government the Muslim/Croat Defence

    23 Council, because there were all the Croats and Muslims

    24 in Vitez represented there. That suggestion was made

    25 by Josip Silic, a Croat from Vitez. We were all happy

  58. 1 that a compromise had been found, and some three or

    2 four days later Munib Kajmovic, as the president of the

    3 SDA at Vitez, told us at the executive board that Anto

    4 Valenta now, as the deputy president of the Croatian

    5 Community of Herceg-Bosna, told him that nothing would

    6 come out of it because they had not been given the

    7 green light from Grude.

    8 Q. By "Grude," you mean -- or by "Grude," he

    9 meant ...

    10 A. Grude is where, from what we knew, was the

    11 seat of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    12 Q. So even at this stage, were you pressing for

    13 co-operation with Croats in the HDZ, or were you

    14 pressing for separation of interests and powers?

    15 A. No, all the time we kept in touch and were

    16 looking for a compromise to, set up a joint authority

    17 in Vitez and to set up a joint military command and

    18 joint police.

    19 Q. Before I turn to topic 9 on my little

    20 schedule, I'll just deal with topic 10 and then come

    21 back: Refugees, please. What was the position so far

    22 as refugees in Vitez were concerned? Were there

    23 refugees, where were they coming from, when did they

    24 first start to arrive?

    25 A. In Vitez, there were refugees. First

  59. 1 refugees from Croatia began to arrive; that is in '91,

    2 from Vukovar, from Sid. But there were not many of

    3 them, and largely they came to stay with their

    4 relatives in Vitez. There were some sick people and

    5 elderly.

    6 Subsequently, a large number of refugees

    7 arrived from West and East Bosnia, mostly of Muslim

    8 ethnicity. As far as I can recall, sometime in

    9 September or October, there were over 4.000 Muslim

    10 refugees in Vitez.

    11 Q. Where were they living, for the most part?

    12 A. Some were staying with relations, that is, if

    13 they had relations there. Others were accommodated in

    14 weekend cottages and summer cottages of Zenica

    15 inhabitants. In Vitez, that is in the locality of

    16 Ahmici and Kruscica, there were very many summer

    17 cottages, and these people either stayed with their

    18 relations or in those cottages in Kruscica and Ahmici.

    19 Q. Was the accommodation in those summer

    20 cottages organised by any particular body, and if so,

    21 how did that happen?

    22 A. Yes, the accommodation was organised in the

    23 second half -- that is, I think, in October, November,

    24 and December, it was Mehmed Ahmic who was in charge of

    25 that, and we suggested to him that he ask the owners to

  60. 1 turn him over the keys in order to accommodate those

    2 unfortunate people who arrived with a couple of bags or

    3 rather with nothing at all. We had Merhamet in Vitez,

    4 and through Merhamet we distributed food among them,

    5 and clothing, and some footwear, and money, when there

    6 was some. I had 20 refugees at home in my own house

    7 for a while.

    8 Q. How, generally, did the refugees behave? And

    9 I don't think you've yet given us date for when they

    10 first started to arrive, if you can help us.

    11 A. The refugees began to arrive sometime in

    12 mid '92, Muslims, that is, and I said that Croats

    13 arrived from Croatia in 1991.

    14 Q. And how did the Muslim refugees behave,

    15 generally, in Vitez?

    16 A. I have not heard that they caused trouble in

    17 Vitez. I did not hear any such thing. They were happy

    18 that they were being put up somewhere, that they were

    19 being given food or clothes. They asked for more

    20 always, but we gave them as much as we could. At that

    21 time we were cooperating with the UNHCR, with the

    22 International Red Cross, nongovernmental organisations

    23 which operated in Bosnia at the time, and were given

    24 food, clothing, footwear by them, and through Merhamet

    25 we distributed those items. We had a whole service set

  61. 1 up which kept record of who had arrived, where he had

    2 been accommodated, what he had been issued and so on

    3 and so forth.

    4 Q. Did they, as far as you could judge, generate

    5 any ethnic discord in the community?

    6 A. On one occasion -- and I was the

    7 vice-chairman of the Merhamet charitable organisation

    8 in Vitez; we also had a pharmacy -- and I heard on the

    9 local Croat television, I heard a gentleman who

    10 unfortunately is no longer alive, Anto Marijanovic, and

    11 he was at the time the editor, that Muslims were

    12 pursuing a cunning policy whereby they were setting out

    13 to change the demographic structure of the Vitez

    14 municipality so that they could win power in Vitez at

    15 the next elections.

    16 I was appalled by that, and I asked him,

    17 "Anto, how can you say that?" And he said, "Well, we

    18 have to say something."

    19 I mean, it did not depend on Muslims in

    20 Vitez, how many of them we would receive, how many of

    21 them we could receive. They were asking for help. And

    22 in the first half --

    23 Q. I'll cut you short there, because I want to

    24 move from the refugees coming to Vitez to the movement

    25 of Muslims from Vitez: When did the process of Muslims

  62. 1 leaving Vitez begin?

    2 A. As far as I know, at a Merhamet meeting, the

    3 secretary who was keeping the record, in the presence

    4 of officers of the International Red Cross from France,

    5 she said sometime around the 10th of April, '93, three

    6 or four hundred refugees had suddenly left Vitez, and a

    7 large scale departure of Muslims from Vitez, or rather

    8 the expulsion of Muslims from Vitez, began on the 16th

    9 of April, 1993.

    10 Q. Thank you. So far as humanitarian aid was

    11 concerned for refugees, was that humanitarian aid

    12 always available to them, or did there come a time when

    13 for any reason it stopped?

    14 A. The conditions which existed for the

    15 reception of refugees, one of the conditions was that

    16 they all had to report to the Red Cross in Vitez.

    17 Sometime in November '92, the HVO government simply

    18 prohibited the work of the Red Cross, prohibited Suad

    19 Caic, who was the president of the Red Cross, and his

    20 typist, to enter there. They seized the seals, and we

    21 could not any longer make record of Muslim refugees in

    22 Vitez, because from that card, from that application,

    23 the application of the Red Cross was the basis on which

    24 we could receive aid from international organisations.

    25 At the same time, Mehmed Ahmic, who was

  63. 1 responsible for putting up, for accommodating refugees,

    2 informed us that Dario Kordic had prohibited the

    3 settlement of refugees in the municipality in Busovaca

    4 at that period of time.

    5 So we found ourselves in a rather

    6 embarrassing position. And then the refugees began to

    7 slowly -- I mean refugees of Muslim ethnicity -- began

    8 slowly to leave Vitez. I think we have records.

    9 Q. Thank you. And when was this announcement by

    10 Dario Kordic, if you can recall?

    11 A. At one of the Merhamet meetings, I think it

    12 was sometime in November '92, but I am transmitting to

    13 you the man in charge of the matter was the one who

    14 told us that, at the meeting, and his name was Mehmed

    15 Ahmic, called Sudzuka.

    16 Q. I now want to deal generally with the period

    17 June '92 to January '93, topic 9, and with what

    18 happened so far as Muslim buildings, businesses, and so

    19 on, were concerned. In that period, was there a change

    20 in the life of Muslims in the town of Vitez?

    21 A. At that time when the HVO appointed Vitez

    22 government, I already said that money was arriving from

    23 Croatia, the money that was not being used in Croatia

    24 anymore. Then weapons arrived. Those weapons were

    25 also sold to Muslims.

  64. 1 The first attack, I mean physical attack,

    2 against local Muslims in Vitez began sometime around

    3 the 10th of September, when the SDA kiosk in Vitez was

    4 destroyed, that is, the lottery of the SDA in Vitez.

    5 Then the bust of a national hero, a national hero of

    6 the last world war, was also demolished sometime around

    7 the 20th.

    8 Then I think it was around the 20th of

    9 October when the HVO attacked TO units in Vitez, and

    10 then the command post of the TO was taken, the

    11 logistics of the TO was taken over. And then in Ahmici

    12 four houses were destroyed, then farm buildings, about

    13 20 buildings were damaged.

    14 Q. Before you move too far forward, just because

    15 you haven't dealt with it in detail, the kiosk that

    16 you've referred to and the national hero whose bust was

    17 destroyed, did either of them have Muslim connections

    18 or was the kiosk Muslim owned or not and was the hero a

    19 Muslim or not, just so we can know?

    20 A. The kiosk belonged to the SDA party, and the

    21 bust, the man's name was Mosa Pijade, and he was of

    22 Jewish origin.

    23 Q. Picking it up at about the 20th or, more

    24 precisely, maybe the 21st of October, were you working

    25 in the hospital on the 21st of October?

  65. 1 A. At that weekend, I was working in the

    2 hospital. I was on duty there. On the 19th, I worked

    3 in Vitez and I learned, on the morning of the 20th,

    4 that there had been a conflict in the village of Ahmici

    5 between TO and HVO members.

    6 Q. Did you see any of the victims or people who

    7 were apparently victims of that incident?

    8 A. Yes, and since we had moved the health centre

    9 to a reserve site from Vitez, rather from the urban

    10 part of Vitez, wounded people came to us, mostly

    11 Muslims. But they also brought to us a man from Ahmici

    12 with his elbows smashed. I think his name was Nesib

    13 Kajmakovic. And I was at home at the time. It was

    14 lunchtime, but they called me and asked me to come back

    15 urgently. And when I came, Dr. Bruno Buzuk and

    16 Dr. Enisa Mulalic were having an argument with two or

    17 three HVO soldiers who wanted to kill that wounded

    18 man. Owing to Dr. Bruno Buzuk, we extended aid to that

    19 wounded, and he was then taken by an ambulance car to

    20 the hospital in Zenica, to the orthopaedic surgery.

    21 That day, there were five or six of them, as

    22 I said, on the 20th of October, civilian wounded who

    23 came to us, to the health centre, looking for medical

    24 help.

    25 Q. So the HVO soldiers were saying this, that

  66. 1 they wanted to kill the man in the hospital itself, or

    2 where?

    3 A. Yes. They wanted to take him out into the

    4 street and kill him.

    5 Q. Back then to the 21st of October, if your

    6 memory is such that you can take us through the

    7 important events of the next few months without my

    8 interrupting you, do so. Otherwise, I'll take you to

    9 various topics.

    10 But can you now remember the developing

    11 history so as to give us, without concentrating on

    12 minor details, just give us the major events? Can you

    13 take us through to January of 1993?

    14 A. I'll try to be as concise as possible.

    15 In that period after the 21st of October, a

    16 Croat from Vitez, Ilija Safradin, approached me and

    17 told me that soldiers of the BH army had seized his

    18 car, and asked me for help. I went to the secondary

    19 school with Stipo Kristo, the driver, and in the

    20 command I found about 15 or 20 members of the BH army

    21 or, rather, the TO, and I asked to see the commander,

    22 Sefkija Djidic. Nihad Rebihic told me that he was

    23 standing in for him. I asked him where was the

    24 commander, and he said he was in Stari Vitez at the

    25 reserve command post.

  67. 1 With the same driver, I went there and I

    2 asked Sefkija to return the car to Ilija Safradin, and

    3 he ordered a military policeman to bring that car and

    4 asked me to establish contact with Ivan Santic to try

    5 to calm down the situation and convene a meeting.

    6 When we returned, I called Ivan Santic and I

    7 said Sefkija was asking for a meeting, and he also told

    8 me that he had been issued the order by the district TO

    9 staff that a blockade should be put up on the road to

    10 Ahmici. But he said that he had very few soldiers,

    11 that all his soldiers were on the front line. He also

    12 said that the HVO would just step up, go through that

    13 blockade, and that people would die just like that.

    14 With the help of the UNHCR in Vitez and Ivan

    15 Santic, I convened that meeting, and I attended one of

    16 those meetings. I think it was on the 23rd at the

    17 joint meeting convened to appease the situation in

    18 Vitez.

    19 Together with Pero Skopljak and a local

    20 priest both of the Muslim and Croat origin, we appeared

    21 on -- we came on television. We were trying to call

    22 upon people -- we were appealing to people, telling

    23 them that there was no need for concern, that an

    24 understanding had been reached, that talks were being

    25 conducted at the level of higher commands or, rather,

  68. 1 at the republican level, and so that the situation was

    2 rather calm for a few or three days.

    3 But then at the beginning of November, at

    4 night, about 10 buildings were blown up, and they were

    5 owned by Muslims in Vitez.

    6 Q. What buildings were those?

    7 A. Those were restaurants or coffee shops or

    8 hairdressers, photographers, owned by Muslims.

    9 Q. What was the reaction of the Muslim

    10 population to that?

    11 A. We were asking, "Why, what for, how?"

    12 Q. And the answers you got, if any?

    13 A. We mostly received the same answer, that

    14 these were done by people who were not controlled by

    15 the HVO, people whom the HVO could not control.

    16 Anyway, I mean these are very vague answers.

    17 Q. And who was identified as beyond the control

    18 of the HVO?

    19 A. I don't know. It was really -- I could not

    20 really understand who that was, because they were

    21 mostly HVO soldiers who blew up those buildings. That

    22 was a method of intimidation of people living in Vitez.

    23 Q. Let's move on, then, from the --

    24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I want to find out

    25 who gave the answer that those activities were done by

  69. 1 people who were not controlled by the HVO. Who is it

    2 that gave that answer?

    3 A. We continued to be in touch with members of

    4 the crisis staff; Ivan Santic, Pero Skopljak, Anto

    5 Valenta. Also present frequently at the meetings of

    6 the crisis staff was Mario Cerkez. And mostly they

    7 were the people who represented the Croatian side in

    8 all agreements and negotiations.

    9 For example, on the 23rd and 24th of October,

    10 a motel called Plavac in Kruscica was destroyed and the

    11 guard was killed, and the motel was owned by a Muslim

    12 who was a commander of the BH army in that area. His

    13 name was Hakija Gelilovic.

    14 Towards the end of November, two soldiers

    15 were killed on the road to Kruscica, and then when the

    16 refugees from Jajce came --

    17 MR. NICE:

    18 Q. Keep in mind Judge Robinson's question. He

    19 specifically wanted to know who was giving you the

    20 answer to your query about responsibility for these

    21 actions. I hope I haven't cut you short too quickly,

    22 but focus on that question of the Judge's, please.

    23 A. I remember once when Anto Valenta told us at

    24 a meeting, when we asked him about these incidents, he

    25 said, "Perhaps it is being done by the Muslim

  70. 1 extremists to deepen the rift," because we asked him,

    2 "Who is doing this?" And the answer by responsible

    3 officials of the HVO was that this was being done by

    4 people who were out of control of the HVO, and I have

    5 listed the four names.

    6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

    7 MR. NICE:

    8 Q. Now, you've taken us up to the end of

    9 November, I think. Are there any important events of

    10 the type you've described that happened before the end

    11 of November, or does that pretty well conclude it until

    12 then? I know there's a bank to be dealt with, but I

    13 think that comes later.

    14 A. At the end of November, two members of the BH

    15 army were killed on the road between Vitez and

    16 Kruscica. Also in January --

    17 MR. NICE: I am going to stop you now because

    18 I want to introduce another exhibit. 294, please. So

    19 things can be broadly chronological, I'm going to -- in

    20 order to achieve, wherever possible, chronological

    21 development, I'm going to ask everybody to have that

    22 document in their hands, but also to have an earlier

    23 one, 246, and then they can be dealt with in the

    24 correct order.

    25 As to 246, it's my error entirely, if the

  71. 1 witnesses could have 246 in the B/C/S first, it's 246

    2 for which I required a minute of private session this

    3 morning. If I could have private session now, please,

    4 for a minute.

    5 (Private session)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

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    16 (redacted)

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    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

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    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    3 (redacted)

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    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

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    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (Open session)

    24 MR. NICE:

    25 Q. The next document, Document 294, dated the

  75. 1 26th of November, do you have that before you, please?

    2 This is a press release dated the 26th of November, and

    3 it starts off with a reference to the fact that since

    4 the 25th of November, there hasn't been a single

    5 representative of the authorities of Muslim nationality

    6 in the building of the assembly of the Vitez

    7 municipality. Explain that, please, or explain this

    8 document, which can otherwise probably speak for

    9 itself.

    10 A. In those days, the HVO government had

    11 introduced a new system of work, and all those who had

    12 not signed allegiance to the new government on that

    13 day, and I think it was the 25th of November, were not

    14 allowed entrance to their place of work. When we

    15 learned that, we issued this press release. This is a

    16 release of the executive board of the Party of

    17 Democratic Action in Vitez. Therefore, all of those

    18 who did not sign up to this new organisational set-up of

    19 the HVO and who were not loyal to that government lost

    20 their jobs.

    21 Until that day, the executive board of the

    22 municipal assembly, headed by Faud Kaknjo, worked in

    23 the same building as the HVO government.

    24 Q. Now, the document speaks for itself. Thank

    25 you for that. It speaks for itself. It deals with the

  76. 1 fact that Muslim nationality policemen were not able to

    2 carry out their duties. It asks a rhetorical question,

    3 and it concludes by saying this: "In conclusion, we

    4 are calling upon the HVO government in Vitez to act

    5 seriously and cooperate, with the aim of creating a

    6 union which will respect the interests of all Vitez

    7 citizens, regardless of their national or political

    8 affiliation." It's a document not signed, but it's on

    9 behalf of the SDA?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Was that conclusion and that invitation

    12 genuine, and were you still anxious, in the SDA, to

    13 cooperate in order to create a union for the interests

    14 of all?

    15 A. Yes. The result of this was an agreement

    16 reached around the 27th of January, 1993, to form, in

    17 Vitez, a wartime government of Vitez municipality where

    18 all would be represented --

    19 Q. I'm going to bring you to that in due

    20 course. But before we get there, I want you to move,

    21 again quite swiftly, through the history of events.

    22 We had left it at the end of November,

    23 possibly the beginning of December, I'm not sure, with

    24 the death of the two soldiers. Can you take us through

    25 any other events that happened in the end of November

  77. 1 or in December? Then we'll come to the 15th of

    2 January.

    3 A. I think I have said enough, that all persons,

    4 regardless of ethnicity, including Muslims, were not

    5 allowed to enter and take up their jobs unless they

    6 signed a new certificate issued by the HVO government

    7 in Vitez, and --

    8 Q. My mistake for not being clear.

    9 A. We wanted to establish contact again to reach

    10 some kind of a compromise.

    11 JUDGE MAY: I think, Doctor, we're moving

    12 away from the point, I think.

    13 MR. NICE:

    14 Q. I want to take you back, Dr. Mujezinovic,

    15 please, to the events of violence and other changes in

    16 the life of Vitez between November '92 and January '93,

    17 and then we'll pick up the political environment in

    18 January.

    19 To get you back to the topic I want you to

    20 deal with, which is the series of events you've already

    21 covered, with the damage to businesses and shops and

    22 the motel and the killing of soldiers, what was the

    23 position so far as the commercial bank of Travnik is

    24 concerned? What currency did it deal with or deal in?

    25 A. It dealt with the former Yugoslav dinar, and

  78. 1 then in Vitez, the Croatian currency was introduced.

    2 Then the Croatian curricula from Croatia, various

    3 symbols of the Croatian state. There was political

    4 pressure on the Muslims of Vitez to accept this as

    5 being the reality. In fact, Croatian authority was

    6 fully asserted, and no mention was made of others

    7 anymore.

    8 After this announcement of ours, the

    9 situation did not calm down. Shops continued to be

    10 blown up. The economic bank -- commercial bank of

    11 Travnik in Vitez was blown up. Then Zmajevac. The

    12 owner was from Zenica. Then the Klevija company based

    13 in Zavidovici.

    14 Individual Muslims were taken into custody

    15 for interrogation, physical abuse, threats, such as,

    16 for instance, engineer Suad Salkic, who was an

    17 honorary citizen of the town of Zagreb;

    18 Dr. Ridzanovic, with a PHD in technology. A well-known

    19 businessman in Vitez was killed and plundered in Stara

    20 Bila. Another businessman on the way out of Vitez in

    21 the village of Nadioci was killed. Policemen were

    22 taken into detention, policemen of Muslim ethnicity in

    23 those days, that is, in January we learned.

    24 I didn't hear it, but at our meetings, we

    25 were told that Mr. Dario Kordic had proclaimed the

  79. 1 members of the BH army and the police as being

    2 paramilitary formations, stating that the only lawful

    3 unit within historical Croatian borders was the HVO.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, it's time for our

    5 adjournment.

    6 We've had the contemporary notes of events

    7 made by an earlier witness as Exhibit 332.1.

    8 MR. NICE: Document 11 does come next on my

    9 list, and we're moving on to that.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but we don't want repeated

    11 those allegations with which we've already dealt,

    12 unless there's been a challenge to them.

    13 MR. NICE: I'm satisfied that we will

    14 conclude this witness in chief this afternoon, and I

    15 mentioned earlier the possibility of -- this has

    16 nothing to do with the evidence of this witness, but I

    17 just mentioned the possibility this morning of another

    18 witness being available to make sure that the balance

    19 of the week will be filled with evidence. Providing

    20 there's enough of the week at the end of it to take

    21 that witness, he's able to come, I'm happy to say.

    22 JUDGE MAY: I'm sure that's the case, that

    23 you've got all those matters in mind, Mr. Nice, but I'm

    24 just saying that we, because I'm reminded of it and now

    25 I look to it, Exhibit 332.2, we haven't yet reached

  80. 1 that. The dates don't compare, but we've had, at

    2 considerable length, evidence of what happened in

    3 December '92 until January of '93, so that can be taken

    4 shortly.

    5 MR. NICE: I've finished with it, I think.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If that's a

    7 convenient moment, we'll resume at a few minutes after

    8 half past 2.00.

    9 Doctor, we're going to adjourn now. If you

    10 would be back, please, for half past 2.00 to start.

    11 Could you remember, in this adjournment and

    12 any other adjournments, not to speak to anybody about

    13 your evidence, please? And that does include members

    14 of the Prosecution.

    15 Thank you. If you would be back then.

    16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.










  81. 1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

    3 MR. NICE:

    4 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, we come to January 1993 and

    5 the war presidency. Very shortly, whose idea was it

    6 that such presidency should be created?

    7 A. The war presidency of the municipality of

    8 Vitez was founded on the basis of a decree of the

    9 presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We

    10 complied with it and established that body, which in

    11 wartime conditions was the supreme authority in the

    12 municipality.

    13 Q. The Republic had instructed you to set this

    14 up; was it a body that was to comprise people of all

    15 ethnicities, or just of one?

    16 A. It was to consist of representatives of all

    17 peoples who lived in the municipality.

    18 Q. Were there difficulties in finding somebody

    19 who was prepared to act as president?

    20 A. In Vitez, it was four persons who were

    21 nominated. They all refused. They did not dare. They

    22 tried to prevail upon me, and were at me for about --

    23 more than a month, trying to talk me into accepting

    24 it. They believed that I was on good terms with

    25 everybody in Vitez and that therefore I would be

  82. 1 successful and manage to prevent any conflict.

    2 Sometime on the 2nd of February, '93, I agreed to do

    3 that, as a volunteer.

    4 Q. What warnings, if any, had you had about the

    5 consequences of accepting this job?

    6 A. A Croat from Vitez -- before the war, he was

    7 a high official in the republic and MUP, his name was

    8 Jugoslav Bilic -- and he came to my house and warned my

    9 wife and me that in Vitez, there was no room for

    10 Muslims any more. He offered to give us passports with

    11 Dario Kordic's signature, and we only had to write our

    12 names and the names of our children as Croat names, and

    13 he offered also to give us a ride to Split.

    14 I told him what I was being offered in Vitez,

    15 and he said, "Doctor, this is no joke; the situation is

    16 very serious. Think about it. I am at your disposal.

    17 Just give me two pictures of your children, and write

    18 down the names that you would like to have."

    19 My wife was frightened, but I thought there

    20 was an understanding reached on the 27th of January to

    21 set up a joint government to be called the municipal

    22 wartime government, municipality of Vitez, within the

    23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so it would be the

    24 wartime government of Vitez. It was in Grude, Republic

    25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, wartime government of Croatia --

  83. 1 Q. I'm going to stop you there.

    2 A. No, sorry, the Republic of

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Community, Herceg-Bosna.

    4 Q. The original question was, what, if any,

    5 warnings did you have of what would happen to you if

    6 you took this job. Did you get any warnings of what

    7 would happen to you? Yes or no?

    8 A. I already said that I was warned by Bilic,

    9 Jugoslav Bilic, nicknamed Jugo.

    10 Q. What would happen to you? Did he say?

    11 A. No, it was in general terms, that there was

    12 no room for Muslims, that they would expel all Muslims,

    13 that the situation was serious.

    14 Q. That's fine. The government having been set

    15 up, a parallel government, as I think you described it,

    16 did it have any dealings with the HVO?

    17 A. Whom do you mean? I did not understand the

    18 question.

    19 Q. You, having become president of the war

    20 presidency, did that presidency have dealings

    21 thereafter with the HVO? Did you meet them, the HVO?

    22 A. At the time, we already had reached agreement

    23 at the level of the BH army, signed by Sefer Halilovic

    24 and Milivoj Petkovic, as the commander in chief of the

    25 HVO, to set up three commissions in Vitez, mixed

  84. 1 commissions, and a central one in Busovaca, and all

    2 incidents that would happen were to be investigated

    3 jointly.

    4 So one commission was the commission for

    5 incidents; another one was the commission for exchange

    6 of captured and exchange of our equipment and materiel;

    7 and the third commission was for the unimpeded return

    8 of military vehicles of the army of B and H to Vitez.

    9 In Busovaca, in Hotel Tisa, the joint

    10 commission sat. I think the army of B and H was

    11 represented by Dzemal Merdan; he was the chairman of

    12 the commission.

    13 Q. Again, I'm going to stop you short: Did the

    14 commissions in Vitez meet? Just yes or no. Were they

    15 effective?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. How long did they remain effective?

    18 A. Until the 15th of April, '93.

    19 Q. Between the summer of 1992 and the 15th -- I

    20 beg your pardon; start again.

    21 Between January and the 15th of April of

    22 1993, were there further acts of violence committed

    23 against Muslims? Just yes or no.

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And you can provide detail of and answer

  85. 1 questions about those events if asked by either Defence

    2 counsel or by the Court? Just yes or no.

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Thank you. You've already dealt with the

    5 destruction of the bank, which I think happened in

    6 January; is that right?

    7 A. Yes. '93.

    8 Q. I want now to move to the 15th of April and

    9 the next few days after the 15th of April of 1993, but

    10 just before I do, one question. Covering the whole

    11 period from the summer of '92 until April of '93,

    12 you've spoken of acts of violence by Croats against

    13 Muslims. Were there any acts of retaliation, to your

    14 knowledge, by Muslims on Croats? Yes or no?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Were any of those in your presence? Yes or

    17 no?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Were any of them with your approval?

    20 A. No. I insisted that they all be taken under

    21 custody, detained, and punished.

    22 Q. So that again we can deal with it shortly,

    23 first of all, you are in a position to give detail to

    24 the Defence counsel, if they want to know of it, of

    25 acts by Muslims, can you pick out a bad one, i.e., the

  86. 1 worst example you can think of, of an act of

    2 retaliation or violence by Muslims committed on Croats

    3 in that period of time, and just tell us about that in

    4 a sentence?

    5 A. You mean after the murder of two soldiers,

    6 towards the end of November, on the road

    7 Kruscica/Vitez, members of the BH army captured six HVO

    8 members, and they were physically ill-treated. Not

    9 only -- one of them was ill-treated with a knife on the

    10 back. I intervened and saw that these men be released

    11 and that the soldiers of the BH army who had done that

    12 be detained by the military police and taken to the

    13 military prison in Zenica.

    14 As far as I know, those soldiers were

    15 arrested and taken to prison. I really don't know --

    16 Q. That's as much as I want of that.

    17 MR. NICE: And of course, Your Honour, in

    18 dealing with that, I'm not conceding relevance, but it

    19 seemed that a balanced picture was helpful, and it is

    20 available in more detail if it is relevant.

    21 Q. The 15th of April, then, of 1993: On that

    22 day, can you detail what was happening politically, or

    23 what did happen politically on that day?

    24 A. On that day, I was at my regular job as a

    25 physician, and I was called in to adjudicate at the

  87. 1 meeting of the incidents commission. I was told that I

    2 had to arrange for the meeting of the war presidency.

    3 At the meeting, there was the incidents commission

    4 present, and I said that they concluded that the

    5 situation had deteriorated terribly in Vitez and that

    6 we had to hold a joint party meeting and a meeting of

    7 the representatives of the authorities to start the

    8 initiative on setting up joint command; that is, joint

    9 police and joint authority. They also suggested as to

    10 who should be invited from the regional level. I think

    11 they mentioned Asim Fazlic, who was the commander of

    12 the centre for security service in Zenica, and also the

    13 commander of the HVO civilian police for Central

    14 Bosnia, and also a representative of the Armija.

    15 Q. Did you make arrangements with the HVO to

    16 attend such a meeting?

    17 A. Yes. We agreed and confirmed that a meeting

    18 would be held in the building of the municipal hall in

    19 Vitez on the 16th of April at 12.00.

    20 Q. Did you then go home?

    21 A. Yes. Yes, I went home.

    22 Q. On the way home, on foot, I think, did you

    23 meet someone, some member of the HVO government?

    24 A. Yes, because my car had been stolen already,

    25 so I walked home.

  88. 1 Q. [Indiscernible]

    2 A. Yes. His name was Zvonko Bekavac. He was a

    3 member of the HVO government in Vitez. I asked him to

    4 give me a lift home because my mother was ill --

    5 because his mother was ill, so I went to his house to

    6 see his mother, to examine her and all that.

    7 After that, two other Croats came to Zvonko

    8 Bekavac's house and asked me to go and extend medical

    9 help for a woman, and they brought me an X-ray of her

    10 heart. I prescribed what to administer her and told

    11 them to take her to Travnik, to hospital, if her state

    12 did not improve. He also gave me a lift home.

    13 Q. So that's a Croat or Croats you were helping

    14 on that very night?

    15 A. I was helping them. Yes, they were Croats.

    16 Q. Thank you. That night, on the telephone, did

    17 you receive calls about the condition in Vitez

    18 generally?

    19 A. Yes. Many Muslims from Vitez called me,

    20 asking me what was going on, how to listen to

    21 television, and I answered -- I gave them all the same

    22 answer, that the next morning we would be having a

    23 meeting at 12.00 and there was no problem.

    24 Q. The next morning at 5.00, what happened?

    25 A. The next morning, around 5.30, and my wife

  89. 1 and my parents-in-law was with me, my children and I

    2 were awakened by tremendous detonations, a series of

    3 detonations. Until that time, there were detonations

    4 here and there, but now there were tremendous

    5 detonation and a whole series of them. So we got up,

    6 and I dialled -- I called by telephone Sefkija Dzidic,

    7 the commander of the TO in Vitez, to ask him what it

    8 was all about, and he told me that Vitez had been

    9 attacked by the HVO, that fighting was going on around

    10 houses in Stari Vitez. I asked him what to do, and he

    11 told me, "Just stay at home and keep quiet." At that

    12 time, somebody rang at my door.

    13 Q. Who was that?

    14 A. It was my neighbour, Marinko Katava from the

    15 second floor. So my wife and I opened the door. "Good

    16 morning, neighbour. So what is it about," I asked him,

    17 and he said, "I warned you that your children should

    18 not shout slogans, 'Armija, B and H' and not to write

    19 graffiti on the walls, and you did not obey. Now don't

    20 be surprised because HVO soldiers will come and you are

    21 no more," and he left.

    22 Q. Had your children, to your knowledge, been

    23 chanting slogans, or had they been drawing graffiti?

    24 A. I don't know; nor did he warn me previously.

    25 I never talked about such things with Marinko Katava,

  90. 1 and I really don't know.

    2 Q. Did you stay in your --

    3 A. I don't think so. I mean they were small, my

    4 children.

    5 Q. Did you stay in your apartment?

    6 A. Yes. I stayed in my apartment with my

    7 family.

    8 Q. Did you receive further phone calls,

    9 informing you of things that had been happening in the

    10 town?

    11 A. Yes, I was receiving all sorts of telephone

    12 calls. Some were provocative. Some were why don't I

    13 come out to help people. They were letting me know who

    14 had been killed. And finally my line was cut off.

    15 Q. Just a matter of detail, "Yes" or "No". Was

    16 one of the people of whose death you were informed

    17 Nedim Zlotrg?

    18 A. Yes, and his wife.

    19 Q. And did you see them again, and if so, at

    20 what time?

    21 A. Yes. My neighbour came again around 9.00 or

    22 10.00 and asked me to go to the children's room to have

    23 a tête-à-tête conversation, and we entered. He brought

    24 me two boxes of cigarettes and asked me, "Doctor, tell

    25 me, what is it that you have done for all these people

  91. 1 so that they saved your neck?" And I started telling

    2 them that I was a physician, but he was pressing on me

    3 to tell him who was it, because somebody was saving me,

    4 and that all this would be over by Monday.

    5 At that moment, another neighbour of mine

    6 came from the next-door, also a Croat, Dragan Safradin,

    7 of whom I was on very good terms, an engineer in Vitez,

    8 and he was crying. He also brought me a box of

    9 cigarettes and told me to keep quiet, to sit there,

    10 that I would have no more problems, that I had

    11 survived. I don't know. After that, they left, both

    12 of them.

    13 During that day, a third --

    14 Q. Before we come to the third neighbour or

    15 third visitor, that first neighbour, Marinko Katava,

    16 did you get on well or not with that neighbour?

    17 A. His wife worked in the same company as I

    18 did. He was a pharmaceutical technician, so we

    19 cooperated, I mean, on medical issues. We were not

    20 close friends, but we were not enemies, either.

    21 Q. [indiscernible] before?

    22 A. No. On one occasion, he came to my place

    23 with his wife and brought -- allegedly, the HVO

    24 government had given him the first aid kit, and they

    25 were taking it from the city pharmacy, and did I want

  92. 1 to take part in this. I was telling him that this was

    2 city pharmacy and that the HVO could not make presents

    3 out of something which was city property. But

    4 otherwise, no, we did not have any other.

    5 Q. I'm sorry that I'm having to cut you short,

    6 but it is the only way we can move the evidence forward

    7 swiftly in the way that is appropriate in this case,

    8 and I hope you don't think it's rude of me. But indeed

    9 I see that by doing that, I sometimes blank out the

    10 questions on the transcript. So what is indiscernible

    11 at line 7 is, "Had he shown any antagonism before," but

    12 I'm afraid that's going to happen as long as I have to

    13 cut through the answers of the witness from time to

    14 time.

    15 You stayed in your house. You were about to

    16 tell us about a third visitor, I think. Who was that?

    17 A. The third visitor was Stipo Krizanac, and one

    18 of -- [indiscernible] Safradin, who was in the next

    19 entrance to the house. Stipo came and asked me if we

    20 had any weapons in the house, and we said we didn't.

    21 He said that HVO soldiers would be searching flats and

    22 houses and would kill those in whose flats they did

    23 find weapons. I did not know -- I was not aware of any

    24 weapons in my house.

    25 When Stipo Krizanac left, my wife told me

  93. 1 that Harum Suljevic, my neighbour from the floor above,

    2 had brought, meanwhile, four hand grenades and that

    3 they were on the balcony. My wife had packed them in a

    4 bag and took them to Stipo Krizanac's flat.

    5 Q. Was there a search of your flat for weapons?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Did you stay in your flat or in the building

    8 of your flat all day the 16th?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. The following day, the 17th?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And the 18th?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Were you receiving phone calls still?

    15 A. The first day, but also on the 17th and 18th,

    16 not so often. We were not allowed to go out. In front

    17 of the entrance to the building, there were armed men

    18 who were not allowing any kind of movement to members

    19 of my family and others. Anyway, I didn't go out. We

    20 were told that there were guards in front of the door,

    21 and through the windows I saw other entrances being

    22 guarded by armed men.

    23 Q. From your phone calls or from any other

    24 callers, were you learning of what was happening in

    25 Vitez and, indeed, in Stari Vitez?

  94. 1 A. No. The wife of my colleague, Dzevad Balto

    2 called me up, and he was the director of the health

    3 centre in Vitez, and he said to me, "Why don't you go

    4 out?" Then after that, the woman looking through the

    5 window fell ill, and she got an acute psychosis. I

    6 don't think she ever recovered.

    7 Then some other people called me, without

    8 introducing themselves. They told me that a man called

    9 Salem Topcic was lying stabbed in the middle of the

    10 road, and he used to work in the police.

    11 Q. I'm pausing there, and again in the most

    12 general terms, can you give any estimate of the number

    13 of deaths that were reported to you in -- local deaths

    14 that were reported to you in this period of time? You

    15 told us about the man Zlotrg, and you just told us

    16 about another. Were any other deaths reported to you

    17 about this period of time?

    18 A. I received information that Arifa, I think

    19 her name was Tunovic, had been killed, and she had been

    20 a teacher in Vitez, in the elementary school there.

    21 Judovarupa Zlotrg, Mira Zlotrg, Salem Topcic.

    22 I later learned from Buzuka (phoen) that Saban

    23 Mahmutovic had been killed.

    24 Q. Were you able to see or hear any shooting,

    25 either from light weapons or from heavy weapons?

  95. 1 A. I watched from my window as shells were

    2 falling on the village of Novaci. I saw houses in

    3 Stari Vitez burning and houses in Vitez owned by

    4 Muslims, the Kavazovic family. I think his name was

    5 Smajo. Koca, Ahmici, from that direction, I could see

    6 smoke.

    7 Q. Did your neighbour from the other floor,

    8 Marinko Katava, visit you again?

    9 A. Yes. I said that he came to visit me between

    10 9.00 and 10.00 on the same day.

    11 Q. No, no, on later days, moving beyond the

    12 15th. Did he come on a subsequent day?

    13 A. I saw Marinko Katava again on Sunday

    14 afternoon. He was going around and telling tenants to

    15 half open the windows because there would be an

    16 explosion and the panes could break.

    17 My father-in-law opened the windows, and in

    18 the afternoon, about 5.00, there was a very powerful

    19 explosion. Katava came around again, telling people

    20 not to be afraid, that it was an ammunition dump that

    21 had been hit at -- Djudin's garbage dump, because it

    22 was looked after by somebody called Djudin. I can't

    23 remember exactly his full name.

    24 Q. Did you subsequently discover what that

    25 explosion had been caused by?

  96. 1 A. Yes. I later learned that where the offices

    2 of the war presidency of Vitez municipality had been,

    3 had been destroyed, that building had been destroyed.

    4 I think about eight people were killed on that

    5 occasion.

    6 Q. And destroyed by what device?

    7 A. Later, I saw some photographs. At the time,

    8 I was living in the part of Vitez under full control of

    9 the HVO. Later, I saw remnants of a lorry.

    10 Q. Thank you. And these offices that were

    11 destroyed, were they in Vitez or in Stari Vitez?

    12 A. Earlier on, we didn't describe and divide

    13 Vitez into "Vitez" and "Stari Vitez", but it was in

    14 Stari Vitez that this happened.

    15 MR. NICE: There's a clip of a video that I

    16 would like to show now. It's Z204.2. It was disclosed

    17 to the Defence, I think, in the summer of last year.

    18 Q. The position is this, Dr. Mujezinovic, isn't

    19 it? You subsequently saw the damage, and you can tell

    20 us if we've got it right, in this extract of the video,

    21 whether this video shows the damage caused by that

    22 truck bomb? So if that video could be played.

    23 (Videotape played)

    24 A. I beg your pardon, but I'm not seeing

    25 anything.

  97. 1 MR. NICE: Can we freeze there, please?

    2 A. These are the consequences --

    3 MR. NICE: We can freeze it there, the image.

    4 A. Those were the consequences of the lorry

    5 bomb.

    6 MR. NICE: Very well. It doesn't freeze

    7 frame very well. If we could just run it forward just

    8 a little further, and then that will be enough. Run it

    9 at normal speed, please.

    10 Q. Can we see any particular building as we pass

    11 through that you can identify? This one or this one

    12 (indicating)?

    13 A. This one to the right (indicating). This is

    14 Karahodzija Huzo's (phoen) house, and across the way

    15 there's a house that wasn't completely destroyed but

    16 which houses the offices of the war presidency. This

    17 is Huzo Karahodzija's (phoen) house in Vitez, and in

    18 this house did we have our offices.

    19 Q. Thank you very much. That was on the Sunday

    20 evening that that bomb happened?

    21 A. Yes, in the afternoon. In the afternoon.

    22 Q. What happened next, so far as you were

    23 concerned? Did you stay in the flat, or did you go

    24 somewhere else?

    25 A. On Monday, the 19th, a soldier came to my

  98. 1 apartment, an HVO soldier, a military policeman. I

    2 knew him; his name was Dragan Calic. He used to be in

    3 the TO. He was looking for me. My mother-in-law

    4 asked, "What do you want of him?" And I came out and

    5 said, "Dragan, what do you want?" And he said that I

    6 should take my doctor's bag and follow him, not to be

    7 afraid, that they had many wounded soldiers, that I had

    8 to go to work.

    9 He took me to the crafts centre, in the

    10 basement, which was the alternate position of the

    11 medical centre in Vitez. On the way, he asked me, "Do

    12 you know, Doctor, who saved your life?" I said I

    13 didn't know. And he told me that it was Darko

    14 Kraljevic who had saved my life, who had come by, by

    15 chance, when HVO soldiers were passing in groups, and

    16 he had ordered them that they mustn't kill me.

    17 When they had brought me to this reserve

    18 medical centre, the staff was surprised to see me

    19 alive.

    20 Q. Were there some nurses there?

    21 A. Yes, there were doctors, nurses.

    22 Q. Had you by this stage learnt anything of the

    23 events in Ahmici?

    24 A. Until this point in time I knew nothing about

    25 Ahmici.

  99. 1 Q. But then?

    2 A. In the course of the day, two nurses from

    3 Ahmici told me what had happened in Ahmici. The name

    4 of one of them was Vidovic Santic. She didn't use to

    5 work in the medical centre before. And the other's

    6 name was Ljubas; that was her maiden name.

    7 Q. What did they tell you?

    8 A. I can't remember her name. They told me that

    9 the two of them, because they were Croat, had been

    10 moved, all of them, about 1.00 at night towards the

    11 Lasva Valley, and that in the morning, the HVO had

    12 attacked the village from all directions, that they had

    13 killed everything in their way, women, children,

    14 animals, and torched everything. When they told me

    15 about this, they were crying. They said that the

    16 situation in Ahmici was terrible, that there were many

    17 cows wandering around, many corpses lying there. That

    18 is when I learned about Ahmici.

    19 The other nurse's name is Ankica Pudza.

    20 Q. And by whom had those two nurses, according

    21 to them, been told to move at 1.00 in the morning?

    22 A. HVO soldiers.

    23 Q. We're now, then, in the medical centre,

    24 reserve medical centre. How long did you stay there?

    25 A. I stayed there roughly until the 15th or 19th

  100. 1 of May, it was a Monday, when I was exchanged. Or

    2 maybe -- I think it was the 18th of May.

    3 Q. I want to deal with some details in the

    4 course of that time, but before I do, are you saying

    5 that you didn't go back to your flat in the meantime?

    6 You stayed permanently in this complex? Or did you go

    7 back to your flat from time to time?

    8 A. No, occasionally one of the people with me,

    9 and there were three, I was told his name was Dragan

    10 Petrovic, known as Kinez, I was told that he was in

    11 charge of the organisation of work. When I had to go

    12 home, he would take me by ambulance to my entrance, it

    13 was about 200 to 300 metres away, and he would hand me

    14 over to the guards at the entrance. Also he would come

    15 and pick me up in the same way, and he would bring me

    16 back, when there was nothing to do, he would come in

    17 the daytime or at night, which means he would drive me

    18 to my house.

    19 MR. NICE: Perhaps we'd better look at a map

    20 and just see if we can make a little more life of the

    21 geography. That is not going to take us very long.

    22 Z2186.

    23 Q. There should be a pointer on the desk,

    24 Dr. Mujezinovic, I don't know if there is, because the

    25 item will be put on the ELMO device -- thank you.

  101. 1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not sure that a

    2 great deal turns on the geography, so I'm not going

    3 through the process, that is time-consuming, of marking

    4 the plan; that can always be done, if it turns out to

    5 be material, in cross-examination.

    6 Q. Does this aerial view show part of Vitez? If

    7 you'd like it another way, differently oriented, say

    8 so, because it's sometimes difficult to follow maps

    9 other than in the way you like them. Move it round if

    10 you want.

    11 A. Yes, this is a part of Vitez.

    12 Q. Can you show us, please, any of the locations

    13 that you've been referring to, starting with your own

    14 address? You have to point on the ELMO, if you would

    15 be good enough. You have to point on that -- yes.

    16 A. I lived here (indicating).

    17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other microphone

    18 be switched on, please.

    19 A. And they would drive me along here.

    20 MR. NICE:

    21 Q. And that was the medical centre there, was

    22 it?

    23 A. Yes. That was the medical centre.

    24 Q. The location of the offices that were blown

    25 up by the truck bomb, are they shown or not shown on

  102. 1 this plan?

    2 A. No, they're not. This is a neighbourhood

    3 that we called "Kolonija," and in this area here is

    4 that other part of Vitez (indicating).

    5 Q. Which area?

    6 A. Off the map.

    7 Q. Off the map; very well. So that was the

    8 comparatively short journey that you had to be driven

    9 from the flat to the hospital and back again, under

    10 guard at all times?

    11 A. No, I was just driven by Dragan Petrovic.

    12 There was no guard. But he would hand me over to the

    13 guards at the entrance.

    14 Q. Thank you. Did you, shortly after being

    15 taken to this location, did you have a meeting with the

    16 defendant Mario Cerkez?

    17 A. The same day, in the evening, about 8.00, to

    18 the medical centre where I worked at the time, two

    19 military policemen came. The name of one of them was

    20 Anto Kovac, known as Zabac, and the other was Ratko

    21 Nuk. They ordered me to follow them.

    22 Q. Where did you land up?

    23 A. The medical staff asked me, "Where are you

    24 going, Doctor?" And they just told me to go. They

    25 took me to the cultural centre in Vitez, or the

  103. 1 Workers' University, to the command. I didn't know

    2 until then that that was where Cerkez's command was,

    3 that is, in the cultural centre.

    4 Q. Is that shown on this plan, this photograph?

    5 A. (Indicating)

    6 Q. Thank you.

    7 A. This is the cultural centre in Vitez

    8 (indicating).

    9 Q. Thank you. When you got there, what did you

    10 find, and what did you do?

    11 A. These soldiers, or rather military policemen,

    12 took me into the office where, sitting at a long table,

    13 was Mario Cerkez together with Zeljo Sajevic, Zvonko

    14 Cilic, Borislav Jozic, Zeljo Vrebac, Stipe Zigonja. I

    15 knew all of them very well. Most of them used to work

    16 in the TO staff, as professionals, whereas Zvonko Cilic

    17 worked as a social worker and Borislav worked in the

    18 security of the factories in Vitez.

    19 Q. Were these all Croats, or was there a mixture

    20 of people?

    21 A. They were all Croats.

    22 Q. What was said to you?

    23 A. Mario Cerkez asked me whether I was aware of

    24 the position I was in. I said yes. He asked me

    25 whether I knew about Ahmici. I said yes. Then he said

  104. 1 to me, in that case, I had to do as he told me.

    2 Q. How did you interpret the combination of

    3 questions about Ahmici and being obliged to do what you

    4 were told?

    5 A. I understood it as a threat.

    6 MR. KOVACIC: I think it's going a little bit

    7 beyond. (Interpretation) It seems to me that the

    8 question is not appropriate. Perhaps the question

    9 could be rephrased, because this is in a sense a

    10 leading question. An opinion is required of the

    11 witness rather than facts.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Well, in fact, it's not a leading

    13 question. It was not asked in leading form. And the

    14 witness can answer as to how he interpreted what was

    15 said. That is matter of fact, as to how he interpreted

    16 it. Whether it is or is not a threat, of course, is

    17 something for us.

    18 Yes.

    19 MR. NICE:

    20 Q. What was the next thing that Cerkez said to

    21 you or told you?

    22 A. He said to me, "Doctor, you know where

    23 Dubravica and Zabrdze are?" The BH army had broken

    24 through the front lines at Dubravica and Zabrdze. He

    25 said to me that I must call up the command of the 3rd

  105. 1 Corps, that there were 2.223 prisoners of war, and if

    2 they continued their advance on Vitez, that he would

    3 order the killing of those prisoners.

    4 I knew Dugalic Ramiz in the 3rd Corps, who is

    5 from Vitez, and who used to work in the TO staff in our

    6 town at one time. I sat at a table opposite them.

    7 Zvonko Cilic was there, too, next to me. I called up

    8 Ramiz Dugalic in the 3rd Corps, and I told him what

    9 Mario Cerkez asked me to say: That there were 2.223

    10 prisoners, and if the BH army continued its advance on

    11 Vitez, that he would order the execution of the

    12 prisoners.

    13 He also told me that I had to call up the

    14 Bosnian politicians, Izetbegovic, Ganic. I asked Ramiz

    15 Dugalic to give me their telephone numbers. Ramiz

    16 Dugalic wanted to know what telephone number I was

    17 calling from. He called me back half an hour later and

    18 told me that I should accept all the terms set by

    19 Cerkez, that he would order a halting of the attack on

    20 Vitez.

    21 After that, Mario Cerkez said that I had to

    22 address the Muslims of Stari Vitez on television and

    23 ask them to surrender their weapons. I sort of

    24 hesitated, and then he gave me Zvonko Cilic to assist

    25 me as to the way in which I should speak, but first he

  106. 1 asked me to set up a commission for negotiations with

    2 the HVO. I said to Mario Cerkez --

    3 Q. Let me just interrupt you for one short

    4 question before we move on to what happened next: When

    5 Cerkez told you about the HVO lines having been broken

    6 through, did you know that to be true, or did you

    7 discover that that was true, and one way or another,

    8 was what he said about the village of Dubravica shown

    9 subsequently to be true, or not? Or don't you know?

    10 A. At that moment I did not know, but later I

    11 learned that it was true, when I was exchanged.

    12 Q. Yes, very well, then. You'd been instructed

    13 to set up a commission to negotiate. Did that lead to

    14 your going to the basement of those premises?

    15 A. No. I said to Mario Cerkez, I asked him who

    16 should be at those negotiations, and he just waved his

    17 and said, "Doctor, in the basement there are 300 men;

    18 you can choose who you like. I don't care."

    19 I went to the basement with Zvonko Cilic and

    20 the soldiers -- or rather the military policemen -- and

    21 in the basement I found a host of people in the

    22 basement, where the coal was for heating the building.

    23 There were men between 18 and perhaps 70 years of age,

    24 from all these neighbourhoods, the Muslims from

    25 Kolonija, professors, teachers, engineers.

  107. 1 Q. What were the conditions in which they were

    2 kept?

    3 A. You know what a place looks like where you

    4 shovel coal into a furnace for central heating?

    5 Q. How many people there? Could they stand up,

    6 sit down, lie down? Describe the position -- in a few

    7 sentences, but so that we can have a picture of it.

    8 A. Mario Cerkez himself told me that there were

    9 about 300 of them. These were cellars, really, with

    10 small windows for shovelling in coal. The ventilation

    11 was very poor. There were too many people. It was too

    12 crowded. There wasn't enough room for people to stand

    13 comfortably.

    14 Q. Who did you select, quickly -- not quickly,

    15 fairly swiftly, so far as names are concerned -- and

    16 what criteria did you apply to select people for this

    17 so-called commission?

    18 A. Well, I mostly took -- picked out

    19 intellectuals from Vitez. Sivro, who was an electrical

    20 engineer, he was director of research and development

    21 at Vitezit; Mulah Halilovic, he was the director of the

    22 secondary school in Vitez; Kadir Dzidic, who was a

    23 professor in Vitez; Fuad Kadir, who was the president

    24 of the executive board in Vitez, and a young man about

    25 whom I knew he had heart valves built in. I'm not sure

  108. 1 of his name; I think it's Nuzja (phoen) Bilic.

    2 They all set off except for Kaknjo, who was

    3 too afraid. We went to the office of Muazam Gerim, and

    4 he was there, too. Formerly he was the SPS director in

    5 Vitez.

    6 Q. Were there any, and if so what sort of number

    7 of people in the basement, dressed in military uniform,

    8 or not?

    9 A. No, they all wore civilian clothes. They

    10 were all civilians, and in civilian clothes.

    11 Q. So back to the office: What happened in the

    12 office with your commission as now formed?

    13 A. In the office, where Zvonko Cilic and Boris

    14 Jozo were there in the office, and they insisted that

    15 Fuad Kaknjo come too. So we went back to fetch him,

    16 and he also came to the office.

    17 In this office, Zvonimir Cilic and Borislav

    18 Jozic said to those present what they were expected to

    19 do: To call their acquaintances by telephone and to

    20 tell them that they were in a basement, that they were

    21 about 300 of them, that the BH army should stop

    22 attacking, that they would all be killed, and the

    23 like.

    24 And Zvonko Cilic and I agreed and around 1.00

    25 after midnight I was taken to the upper floor to

  109. 1 address the public in Vitez. So we drew up a text, and

    2 the local television then broadcast it every now and

    3 then for about a couple of days, with my statement.

    4 When I finished that, I returned to the

    5 office around 2.00, Cilic and Jozic said they had to

    6 go, and they said that if we wanted to stay in that

    7 office, we could, and if not, we could go back to the

    8 cellar. They promised that we would come to talk to --

    9 that Pero Skopljak and Ivan Santic would come around

    10 6.00 in the morning to talk to us. We stayed in this

    11 office and only Fuad Kaknjo went down to the cellar.

    12 Around 5.00 in the morning, Pero Skopljak

    13 turned up, and Ivan Santic, too.

    14 Q. You didn't go down to the cellar again? Or

    15 did you?

    16 A. Only Fuad Kaknjo went down to the cellar. We

    17 stayed in that office, at the desk, and every half hour

    18 an HVO guard would enter to see what we were doing.

    19 And as a matter of fact, we were just sitting, I mean,

    20 there was nowhere to lie down.

    21 Q. Now, Cerkez had mentioned 2.223 prisoners of

    22 different gender and age. You'd seen about -- or you'd

    23 seen what you were told was 300 men. Were you informed

    24 of where any other prisoners were being kept, and if

    25 so, by whom?

  110. 1 A. Cerkez said that he had 2.223 prisoners. At

    2 that time, I did not know even about those in the

    3 cellar. I didn't know where the others were being kept

    4 until I heard it from Cerkez.

    5 Q. And what did he tell you?

    6 A. I don't understand.

    7 Q. What did he tell you about where the others

    8 were kept?

    9 A. No, he did not tell me where they were.

    10 Q. Did anybody else tell you where the others

    11 were being kept?

    12 A. Later on, I learnt, when I came out, after

    13 that night, later, I heard and I saw prisoners in the

    14 SDK office, that was the public auditing service in

    15 Vitez, and I asked Bruno Buzuk to set free a

    16 veterinarian who had had four bypasses on his heart.

    17 He was in the cellar of the veterinarian station, or

    18 rather in his surgery, where he examined animals.

    19 Later they brought Dr. Patkovic, Dr. Muris Trako.

    20 Dr. Muris Trako told me that he had been detained in

    21 the elementary school in Dubravica, and he told me

    22 there were women, children, and adult men.

    23 Q. Thank you. Will you look, please, at the

    24 next exhibit, 752.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I take it we're on

  111. 1 target?

    2 MR. NICE: Certainly, yes. I had actually

    3 forgotten what time we sit to this afternoon, Your

    4 Honour.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Just after 4.00.

    6 MR. NICE: I should hope so, yes.

    7 Q. This document -- I'm sorry about the quality

    8 of the original -- is described as a joint statement

    9 dated the 20th of April of 1993, and it has at its foot

    10 signatures over the typed names of yourself and Ivan

    11 Santic. It is in five paragraphs, of which the first

    12 is a demand that the military commands of HVO and BH

    13 army establish a cease-fire.

    14 The second is that the civilian

    15 representatives unanimously declare that there should

    16 be -- no conflict would have arisen without the

    17 influence of global politics.

    18 The third, in capital letters, reads that:





    23 The fourth, that, "Both sides agree that in

    24 Vitez and Province 10, the Vance-Owen Plan should be

    25 implemented even before signed by the Serbian side.

  112. 1 Also, the army shall retain their structure in

    2 conformity with the ethnic composition ..."

    3 And five, "The highest-level civilian

    4 government bodies shall immediately establish a

    5 political dialogue which will continue until there is a

    6 permanent peace."

    7 That document has a signature; is it yours?

    8 A. It is.

    9 Q. Is the document in any sense truly your

    10 document, in that you drafted it or agreed to it with

    11 free will?

    12 A. As far as I remember, it was signed in the

    13 morning of the 20th, when Pero Skopljak and Ivan Santic

    14 came that morning. Then Santic suggested that we write

    15 this, and suggested -- I don't know whether he brought

    16 the text of the agreement with him, as I already had

    17 the consent to sign. Whatever the HVO would request us

    18 to sign in Vitez, I would have of course signed it,

    19 except that I did not agree with Item 2.

    20 Q. So did you not agree with the proposition

    21 that civilian representatives unanimously declare that

    22 no conflict would have arisen without global politics?

    23 A. Civilian representatives of the Croatian and

    24 Muslim peoples declare that the conflict would not have

    25 arisen again. Because in your translation, if it were

  113. 1 not for the influence of global politics and military

    2 operations from the outside of the municipality.

    3 I still think -- and I thought that we had

    4 done everything, absolutely everything, to avoid a

    5 conflict and humiliation and insults and plunder and --

    6 Q. Right. I can move on, then.

    7 A. -- tremendous human effort --

    8 Q. I can move on to the remaining period of time

    9 that you spent in Vitez. You've already dealt with it

    10 in summary. Between the 20th of April and the time

    11 when you left Vitez in May, did you carry on treating

    12 the sick, so far as you were able, sick and injured?

    13 A. Yes. They perceived me as their chief, so I

    14 selected the wounded -- that is, I decided which

    15 wounded should go to Split, which to Travnik, to

    16 Zenica, and who could stay in our hospital and be

    17 treated there.

    18 Meanwhile nobody asked for me, nobody called

    19 me. My family were not harassed. On the door of my

    20 apartment there was a poster, which said that I was an

    21 HVO physician, with a stamp. And really, I worked, and

    22 I had no problems. Even some Croats from Vitez,

    23 because I knew a number of them, even gave me some

    24 money and would tell me, "well, now, you need this, so

    25 this is for you." Twice a week, I --

  114. 1 Q. [No microphone] ... or otherwise?

    2 A. Only HVO's wounded soldiers came, and they

    3 were Muslim civilians, but not members of the BH army.

    4 They were simply not there.

    5 Q. So when people were giving you money, was it

    6 because it because you'd treated them as a doctor, or

    7 were they giving you money for other reasons?

    8 A. No, not because I treated them, but they were

    9 saying, "you will need this." They simply gave it to

    10 me. I remember one of them, Niko Marac (phoen),

    11 suffering from cirrhosis of the liver, and I treated

    12 him, and he simply said, "Well, listen, Doctor, do you

    13 need any money?" And I told him no, I did not need it.

    14 Q. Let's move now to the 19th of May of 1993.

    15 Did you go to work in accordance with your then pattern

    16 on that day?

    17 A. Yes, I went to work on the 19th, or perhaps

    18 18th, or was it 19th? It was Monday.

    19 Q. There was one other question I should have

    20 asked: I'll deal with it now. Between the 15th of

    21 April and this day, the 18th or 19th of May, had you

    22 been able to exercise any political authority, or to

    23 take part in any political functions and matters?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. Was the presidency of which you were the

  115. 1 president still in existence, technically? Yes or no?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Was it able to operate? Yes or no?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Thank you. And back to this day, the 18th or

    6 19th: You went to work. Who drove you?

    7 A. I was always driven by Petrovic, Dragan

    8 Petrovic, from my flat to work. Twice a week I went to

    9 Busovaca to work, and then a driver from Busovaca would

    10 come.

    11 At first, I and Dr. Muris Trako went -- he

    12 was a surgeon. And later on, he left, and I went all

    13 by myself twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, first

    14 to examine the wounded --

    15 JUDGE MAY: Let us keep to the point,

    16 please.

    17 MR. NICE:

    18 Q. On that day, were you driven away from work

    19 in the afternoon?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Where were you taken?

    22 A. You mean the 18th of May?

    23 Q. Yes, the 18th or the 19th.

    24 A. On the 18th of May, I received a call from

    25 Dr. Bruno Buzuk. He asked me if I would like to see my

  116. 1 mother. My mother lived not far from Vitez, and it was

    2 under the control of the BH army. Would I like to see

    3 my mother?

    4 I thought he was pulling my leg, but at

    5 12.00, Dr. Bruno came, called the driver of the medical

    6 unit, Dragan Bugojnoic, and told me to sit in the

    7 back. I sat there, and he took me to the checkpoint of

    8 the BH army at Dubravica. On the other side was an

    9 ambulance car of the 3rd Corps, with a unit of the 3rd

    10 Corps and Dr. Alija Smajlovic, and they took out a

    11 woman from the Zenica ambulance car, and I moved into

    12 the -- and they put her into the car in which I had

    13 driven up, and I moved into the ambulance car that had

    14 come from Zenica. Dr. Alija Smajlovic said that that

    15 was the wife of a Croat general, that they had heard

    16 that I was to be killed, that there was Kordic's order,

    17 Dario Kordic's order, that I should come to Busovaca.

    18 JUDGE MAY: On what grounds are you

    19 objecting?

    20 MR. SAYERS: This is absolute hearsay, and I

    21 think that it's unduly prejudicial under the test of

    22 Rule 89 for reasons that we stated when we went over

    23 the same kind of testimony with Witness A on April

    24 13th. Apparently the declarant is not listed as a

    25 witness. We don't even know whether the declarant

  117. 1 supposedly saw this order, and there's simply no way to

    2 test the veracity of it. I think that the prejudicial

    3 impact of this testimony grossly outweighs any limited

    4 probative value it would have, if it has any, which I

    5 don't think that it has.

    6 So for those reasons, we object to that

    7 testimony, Your Honour. Thank you.

    8 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    9 MR. NICE: I know Your Honour is probably

    10 about to make a ruling. You haven't heard from me yet,

    11 because --

    12 JUDGE MAY: No, I'm afraid we haven't heard

    13 from you. Normally, no discourtesy is intended, but we

    14 have considered the matter fully and we're going to

    15 exclude it. It's what somebody has said that somebody

    16 else has said that he's heard.

    17 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, I must interrupt the

    18 Court, because the Court hasn't heard me. I'm afraid

    19 that's not, with great respect, fair, because there is

    20 further supporting evidence in respect of this.

    21 When you come to this type of evidence, it's

    22 important to look at the position in the round. Now

    23 here you have a man who is working according to a

    24 routine imposed on him, substantially under control and

    25 effective imprisonment for part of the day. Those who

  118. 1 plainly -- and we only heard of one so far, but those

    2 who had his interests at heart changed his routine and

    3 moved him from a place where it may be judged, on all

    4 the evidence as well as this category of evidence, that

    5 he was at risk, and moved him to a position of safety.

    6 So that, in itself, goes to show, as a matter

    7 of evidence, that there was a risk. We now have to

    8 trace where that risk comes from.

    9 If you had permitted the evidence in, and I'm

    10 going to ask you to reconsider the position and to

    11 hear, before you hear the detail of it, the outline of

    12 the other material that goes to support, when you hear

    13 all the evidence from two different sources that goes

    14 to point, to the same conclusion, then you may

    15 conclude, and I would invite you to say that you must

    16 conclude, that each can support the other, the two

    17 separate bits of evidence, and in any event, in all the

    18 circumstances, it's more likely to be of some value

    19 than of no value, it's more likely to be right than

    20 wrong.

    21 The people who would be protecting this man

    22 from the risks that the independent evidence of his

    23 being moved shows existed, are the sort of people who

    24 it's always going to be difficult for us to have

    25 first-hand because of their proximity themselves to the

  119. 1 defendants, and it may be because of their doing things

    2 that were contrary to their own code.

    3 JUDGE MAY: But just pause a moment and think

    4 what you're submitting. Because the case is difficult

    5 to prove, are you saying, "We should have the thinnest

    6 sort of evidence in?"

    7 MR. NICE: No.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Well, that appears to be the

    9 effect of the submission.

    10 MR. NICE: I'm not saying that at all. But I

    11 am inviting the Court, in a place where hearsay of any

    12 generation is not automatically excluded, to have in

    13 mind, amongst other things, the difficulties of getting

    14 first-hand evidence. That's just something to have in

    15 mind. But more important, to look at the surrounding

    16 circumstances, which I've touched on, and the other

    17 evidence which would have been or would be evidence in

    18 support.

    19 I'll explain in general, although I don't

    20 want to rehearse the witness, where it comes from. It

    21 comes from a meeting he had the night before and with

    22 someone else.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Well, why don't you deal with

    24 that evidence, if you say you've got it, and we'll

    25 consider that. But at the moment, this evidence is not

  120. 1 to be admitted.

    2 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. And may I

    3 make this point as well, just in general before I move

    4 on?

    5 Where we're dealing with evidence coming from

    6 other sources, as it's been described, secondhand, it

    7 may be important for the Court to have some regard to

    8 the sort of person from whom the witness in court hears

    9 that which comes to him.

    10 As I think Your Honour said on an earlier

    11 occasion, it's always a question of reliability that's

    12 at root, and therefore if the evidence comes from

    13 somebody who is likely to be reliable in all the

    14 circumstances, or likely to be unreliable, that will

    15 affect your judgement.

    16 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, the night before this

    17 exchange, on your way from where you were doing your

    18 work, where were you taken?

    19 A. I was taken on Friday, that is, two days

    20 earlier. I was asked by a Croat to examine his

    21 mother. That Croat's mother had been to see me and was

    22 examined by me a couple of days earlier. That Croat

    23 took me to his uncle's house, where his mother was, and

    24 she was making some dough. So I said, "Good afternoon,

    25 good afternoon. How are you?" And she said, "Fine."

  121. 1 That person --

    2 Q. We're going to deal with the evidence in

    3 small bits for the convenience of everyone.

    4 First of all, are you happy to name in this

    5 Tribunal here now, in the present circumstances, the

    6 Croat who took you to his mother?

    7 A. Please, I told you already, during closed

    8 session, I can't name. But I already was in the

    9 courtroom and I already testified about this.

    10 Q. So the name of this person, if you can name

    11 him --

    12 A. He is Vujica Trpimir. He taught biology in

    13 Vitez. He was a Croat by ethnicity. He took me into

    14 the room and said he had taken to UNPROFOR bases

    15 Dr. Enesa Mulalic the day before. And Dragan Petrovic

    16 was --

    17 Q. The mother who you were taken to see --

    18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers?

    19 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I think we can cut

    20 to the central matter here. I believe that Mr. Nice is

    21 trying to elicit from the witness precisely the same

    22 kind of hearsay testimony, from someone who is not on

    23 the witness list, by the way, Mr. Vujica, apparently,

    24 to the effect that he heard from someone that there was

    25 the same kind of order about which he's previously

  122. 1 testified, and that evidence has been excluded. This

    2 evidence should be excluded for precisely the same

    3 reasons.

    4 In the Rule 89 balance, Your Honour, and I

    5 don't think we've made too many of these objections,

    6 but in the Rule 89 balance, you have to balance the

    7 prejudicial effect, which is substantial, against the

    8 probative value, which is virtually zero. I think that

    9 for the same reasons, this testimony should be

    10 omitted. It's rank double or triple hearsay and it's

    11 very prejudicial, and we object to it, Your Honour.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's hear a bit more of

    13 the evidence first.

    14 MR. NICE:

    15 Q. So now the mother you had been taken to look

    16 at or to treat because she was unwell or apparently

    17 unwell, in fact, in what condition was she when you

    18 arrived?

    19 A. Well, that man took me into the room, took

    20 out a bottle of brandy, and poured for the two of us,

    21 and said, "Doctor, Dragan Petrovic in Skopljak has been

    22 put in charge of controlling what you are doing."

    23 Q. I'm going to stop you again. It's difficult,

    24 I know, to understand the reasons for these small

    25 questions with requests for short answers, but I hope,

  123. 1 Doctor, you'll accept that there is a reason for it.

    2 When you saw the woman, what condition was

    3 she; fit or unfit?

    4 A. It was okay. I saw her in the house of her

    5 brother. She was making a pie, as I was saying, the

    6 dough for a pie.

    7 Q. So that you had been taken to see somebody

    8 who was apparently unfit, but she now appeared to be

    9 well.

    10 The man who talked to you, don't tell Their

    11 Honours yet what the man said. Tell us a bit more

    12 about the man. What sort of man was he? What did he

    13 do for a living? You've mentioned it, but repeat it.

    14 Just tell us what sort of chap he was.

    15 A. He was a teacher of biology in Vitez. He was

    16 teaching in grammar school. I didn't know him from

    17 before. I knew the family, I knew his father, but

    18 until that time, I had not known him personally. He

    19 was a young man.

    20 Q. Did you know anything to his detriment, did

    21 you know anything to his credit, up until this stage?

    22 MR. MIKULICIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    23 we have to object again. The witness, in answer to a

    24 question, said that he didn't know the man. After that

    25 came another question in the same direction. I think

  124. 1 the Prosecution is repeating the same questions that

    2 have already been answered.

    3 JUDGE MAY: I think the evidence was he knew

    4 his father, "but I had not known him personally." Yes,

    5 yes, let's move on.

    6 MR. NICE:

    7 Q. Did you know anything to his detriment, did

    8 you know anything to his credit?

    9 JUDGE MAY: No, I'm --

    10 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, move on from that.

    11 Very well, very well.

    12 Q. Now, Dr. Mujezinovic, don't say anything

    13 that's material to your particular position on this

    14 day, because that's what the Court is concerned about.

    15 But did this man who poured you a brandy, did he tell

    16 you anything about the general scope of his function?

    17 First of all, just "Yes" or "No". Do you understand my

    18 question? I only want you to tell the Court what he

    19 told you was his function at that time.

    20 A. Yes, I understand.

    21 Q. Then tell us, please, what he told you was

    22 his function.

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. What did he tell you was his function?

    25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

  125. 1 A. His function was to secure the place we were

    2 working. Not just his function; he also mentioned the

    3 names of two other men involved.

    4 Q. Did he say anything about his function in

    5 relation simply to your movements; "Yes" or "No"?

    6 A. Yes. He said that it was his duty to follow

    7 what I was doing, whom I talked to, how I was working,

    8 and that he had to report to the HVO about that.

    9 Q. Did he tell you how long he had been doing

    10 that or not?

    11 A. From the very beginning, when the conflict

    12 started, he was there.

    13 Q. Just "Yes" or "No". You had a further

    14 conversation with him?

    15 A. Yes. I started to work --

    16 MR. NICE: Stop there. I just wanted to stop

    17 it at that.

    18 Now, I've laid the groundwork. The Court,

    19 not having read the material, won't know precisely

    20 what's forthcoming. But from the necessary formulation

    21 of the argument, it will know, in general terms, what

    22 will be forthcoming. Since the Court has to wear hats

    23 both as the decider of law and the decider of fact, it

    24 may prefer to know, even now, precisely what would be

    25 forthcoming. But that's a matter for the Court.

  126. 1 (Trial Chamber confers)

    2 JUDGE MAY: This is entirely without

    3 prejudice to admissibility. We shall hear the

    4 evidence. I'm afraid I'm not going to take any more

    5 argument at this stage. We wish to hear the evidence,

    6 and then we'll rule on it. If we decide it's

    7 inadmissible, then we shall exclude it entirely. At

    8 least I want to know the basis on which it's being put

    9 forward. Yes.

    10 Mr. Kovacic, we've really had a great deal of

    11 interruption. What do you want to say?

    12 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours, I

    13 do not object to this. The ground has been laid. But

    14 I would suggest, for us to be on the safe side when

    15 judging hearsay, to ask the witness, before this

    16 question, another question, and that is whether this

    17 gentleman, the one he's talking about, is he alive or

    18 dead today?

    19 MR. NICE: I'm happy enough to do that.

    20 Q. What's the answer, please?

    21 A. I think he's alive.

    22 Q. Now, can you now please tell the Court what

    23 else the man said to you at this meeting?

    24 A. He said to me that they had received orders

    25 from Dario Kordic that when I come to Busovaca the next

  127. 1 time, that is, on Tuesday, because I had been the

    2 previous Thursday, there was an order for me to be

    3 killed. He said to me, "My father asked me to save you

    4 and to take you to the UNPROFOR base in Stara Bila."

    5 As I had my children, my wife, my in-laws in Vitez --

    6 Q. Let me stop you there. He told you that this

    7 is what he had learned. Did he explain how he had

    8 learned that, what his source of information was for

    9 where he learned of the order that you've described or

    10 that he described to you?

    11 A. He said that they had received the order,

    12 that is, the HVO security that was providing the

    13 security for us who were working, and that there was a

    14 written order from Kordic that when I come to Busovaca

    15 the next time, I should be executed.

    16 JUDGE MAY: I think that's enough for now.

    17 Just a moment, Doctor. We will decide upon the

    18 admissibility of that. I take it that a written order

    19 does not --

    20 MR. NICE: The written order does not exist.

    21 I've made my argument about the two features having the

    22 potential to support each other and, indeed, this one

    23 arguably being much stronger than the one that in the

    24 event came up first.

    25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

  128. 1 could we know from the witness something that would

    2 clarify things? He said, "When I was going to Busovaca

    3 on the following Tuesday." What date would that be?

    4 What date would that Tuesday be?" "I had gone on a

    5 Thursday, and when I was going again on Tuesday." What

    6 date was that?

    7 MR. NICE:

    8 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, can you help us with the

    9 date?

    10 A. I went every week on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

    11 This went on for a month, you see, --

    12 Q. We want the date, Doctor.

    13 A. -- or maybe 20 days. I had been there on a

    14 Thursday. I think it was the 15th. I was told this on

    15 the 16th. And on the next Tuesday, I was due to go

    16 again to Busovaca to work there. I think it must have

    17 been the 19th of May, 1992.

    18 But I'm just mentioning that I went every

    19 week to work in Busovaca on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

    20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I hope that helps.

    21 If it was the 15th, by an addition of those numbers, it

    22 would actually be not the 19th but the 20th. I hope

    23 that helps.

    24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, just something I

    25 wasn't clear about. I believe the witness said that --

  129. 1 it has gone off the printout here -- that the HVO

    2 security had received the order. That was the effect

    3 of it. I wanted to find out whether the person of whom

    4 he's speaking was a part of that security.

    5 MR. NICE:

    6 Q. You have the question, Doctor. Was this man

    7 speaking to you a part of that security --

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

    9 Mr. Nice.

    10 A. Yes, yes.

    11 MR. NICE:

    12 Q. What was he saying to you, if anything, about

    13 whether he had or had not seen the order himself?

    14 A. He said that all of them had seen it, that

    15 they had received such a signed order, and that his

    16 father, Slavko Vujica, had asked him to save my life,

    17 to get me out and to take me to the UNPROFOR base.

    18 MR. NICE: That's enough.

    19 (Trial Chamber confers)

    20 JUDGE MAY: We shall exclude this evidence.

    21 We doubt its reliability. It is highly prejudicial.

    22 The question is, "What sort of weight, at the end of

    23 the case, could you put on this piece of evidence," and

    24 the answer is, "Very little." In those circumstances,

    25 it will be excluded. Of course, we are not

  130. 1 establishing any sort of general principle. Yes.

    2 MR. NICE: I have two more short topics. Do

    3 you want me to deal with them now or tomorrow morning?

    4 JUDGE MAY: I think we're minded to adjourn,

    5 but if you could make them as short as possible

    6 overnight.

    7 (Trial Chamber confers)

    8 JUDGE MAY: And the Defence will be ready

    9 first thing in the morning, I hope. Mr. Stein, are you

    10 undertaking the --

    11 MR. STEIN: With the Court's permission, we

    12 would like and we've agreed amongst ourselves to have

    13 Mr. Kovacic begin and then Mr. Sayers, if that's --

    14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Kovacic, you'll be

    15 ready first thing tomorrow morning?

    16 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I shall be

    17 ready, of course, in the morning, Mr. President. You

    18 may be interested in the duration of the

    19 cross-examination, but I believe it will be for the

    20 whole day, for sure.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Well, if we can get all the

    22 cross-examination in tomorrow, it would undoubtedly be

    23 a good thing, and we're going to do that.

    24 Doctor, could you be back, please, at 9.45

    25 tomorrow morning and we'll go on with your evidence?

  131. 1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    2 4.16 p.m., to be reconvened on

    3 Tuesday, the 11th day of May, 1999,

    4 at 9.45 a.m.