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  1. 1 Wednesday, 12th May, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.50 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

    8 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

    10 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    11 I should like to begin by tendering into

    12 evidence, and I should like the usher to distribute the

    13 list of the staff of the health centre in Vitez that we

    14 spoke about yesterday. It has been translated.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked

    16 D19/2.

    17 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) This is the

    18 document we discussed yesterday, we finished, and we

    19 just added the English translation.

    20 May I continue, Your Honour?

    21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.


    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

    24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mujezinovic. I hope you

    25 had a good rest after yesterday. Now, will you please

  2. 1 -- and let us try to be as brief as possible, because

    2 we have only half an hour to complete this, so will you

    3 please answer me just "yes" or "no," just to speed

    4 matters up.

    5 After you left the room in which you saw

    6 Cerkez and other persons that you mentioned, and then

    7 you went back after working on the statement with

    8 Cilic, did you see Cerkez in the building again that

    9 night?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Thank you. After that, early in the morning,

    12 there was a meeting with Mr. Santic and Mr. Skopljak

    13 and you and other colleagues that you had invited from

    14 the cellar; is that true?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. At that meeting, you talked, and on one side

    17 there were eminent Bosniak citizens from Vitez, and on

    18 the other side were Mr. Santic and Mr. Skopljak; is

    19 that correct?

    20 A. Yes, and Zvonko and -- Jozic.

    21 Q. I see. So it was Jozic and Cilic who also

    22 attended the meeting in addition to Santic and

    23 Skopljak. You perceived Santic and Skopljak as

    24 representatives of the civilian structure of the HVO;

    25 is that so?

  3. 1 A. As the representatives of HDZ politics in

    2 Vitez.

    3 Q. Thank you. Could we then move on to

    4 something else. As a physician, and as a physician who

    5 is under legal obligation, and you were even called an

    6 HVO physician, have you had an opportunity of examining

    7 the internees in the cinema except on that occasion

    8 when you said that you had to go and choose the

    9 negotiators?

    10 A. I don't really understand what you mean by

    11 "internees."

    12 Q. I mean people who were imprisoned in the

    13 cinema, that is, in the cellar.

    14 A. I remember a case, his jaw was broken, and he

    15 was in the cinema. There was a commission set up which

    16 went there and examined those detained people. I was

    17 not on that commission. It was Dr. Enisa Mulalic, Rado

    18 Savanovic, Dr. Tibold, were its members. I don't know

    19 who else, but I did not go there to that location to

    20 examine them.

    21 MR. KOVACIC: May I now tender another

    22 document. There is a note about that examination, so I

    23 should like to look at that. Will the usher please

    24 help me?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: D20/2.

  4. 1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

    2 Q. Doctor, could you have a look at that?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. In the upper right corner, it is handwritten,

    5 but in capital letters, "Tibold, Dr. Franjo." Is that

    6 the doctor that you just mentioned?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Can you recognise his signature? I suppose

    9 you knew it because you worked together as doctors and

    10 exchanged documentations.

    11 A. Yes, he was a director for a while, and this

    12 is his signature.

    13 Q. It is his signature?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And we have the title down there which you

    16 have just mentioned, president of the medical

    17 commission of the HVO, Vitez.

    18 A. I suppose he was, but I don't really know

    19 which one. There was -- Franjo was more experienced;

    20 he was an epidemiologist. It is quite possible that he

    21 was the president.

    22 Q. Right. Doctor, tell us, since on the top of

    23 that sheet, right below the first line, it says "Mensus

    24 Aganovic," and then it is indicated "went home," and

    25 somebody's signature. And then it says, "Send home

  5. 1 26th of April." Do you know, have you had the

    2 opportunity of seeing or hearing one of those people?

    3 Were they really released, some of the people from that

    4 list? Do you know anything about that?

    5 A. Will you tell me -- whom do you mean?

    6 Q. I mean all of them, any one from 1 to 22.

    7 Only the one on the top has nothing to do with this,

    8 evidently.

    9 A. When I was in the cellar, I called Zvonko

    10 Cilic. I knew all those people, and I knew their

    11 diagnosis, and I did recommend that some 20 of them be

    12 released, because they were chronic patients, and the

    13 conditions there were impossible. And I told also

    14 Dr. Franjo Tibold, but I really do not know which one

    15 of them was released. I know that Dr. Enisa Mulalic

    16 refused to go on working because they would not accept

    17 her recommendations. She was a Muslim and worked in

    18 Vitez.

    19 Q. Thank you. So you advised that some be

    20 released because you knew them. Does any of those

    21 names figure here, or were they 20 others?

    22 A. Well, for instance, Latif Dzoferovic suffered

    23 from tuberculosis or, rather, chronic bronchitis.

    24 Q. Will you give us just the number?

    25 A. It is Number 1 on the list. Zijad Puric,

  6. 1 number 10, he had heart valves implanted. Safet

    2 Malkic, 11, was suffering from gout. Alihodja Atif was

    3 suffering from asthma, from -- number 12, he was

    4 suffering from asthma. Fikret Kablar, it was -- he was

    5 in a post-infarction period. He is a young man. It is

    6 number 15. Harun Sulevic, number 18, formerly suffered

    7 from a stroke. We say that he suffered from a

    8 cerebrovascular insult.

    9 Q. Right. So there are various patients of that

    10 kind. Another question related to this document --

    11 A. Dr. Jusuf Mehmedovic also suffered from

    12 severe bronchitis and was allergic to all medicines.

    13 Q. That is number 22?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Thank you. But will you just keep the

    16 document, please, for a while.

    17 Look at this paper down below 22 at the

    18 bottom. It says "approved," and then the signature

    19 looks like "Pero Skopljak." Do you know Pero

    20 Skopljak's signature, since you saw documents that he

    21 perhaps signed and worked with him? Can you tell us

    22 something about that?

    23 A. Well, I guess this is Pero Skopljak's

    24 signature. After all, seven years have passed by, but

    25 I suppose that is his signature.

  7. 1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    2 Usher, you can take these documents away from the

    3 witness.

    4 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, will you please tell us,

    5 when you left Vitez and went to Zenica, did you have

    6 any contact with your wife, I mean by telephone,

    7 because she had stayed in Vitez?

    8 A. Yes, I did, but only from the police station,

    9 that is, the civilian police station in Vitez.

    10 Q. In other words, she called from the civilian

    11 police station?

    12 A. Yes. She called me once from a Croat woman

    13 and told me that all -- that the telephone was being

    14 bugged and that somebody was listening to all that she

    15 was saying.

    16 Q. But tell us, Doctor, did she ever call you or

    17 did you call her? But I suppose it was she who called

    18 you perhaps from the building of the Workers'

    19 University, from the command of the brigade.

    20 A. My wife told me that she had tried to talk to

    21 Pero Skopljak and Mario Cerkez, and that Mario Cerkez

    22 told her that I was no man at all, how could I leave

    23 the family, and what had I done, I mean, to leave and

    24 to leave my family back in Vitez.

    25 Q. But he allowed her to telephone?

  8. 1 A. I don't think it was Mario Cerkez. I think

    2 she told me that it was another Croat, Markisa Rujic,

    3 who took her into his office and allowed her to call

    4 me.

    5 Q. Did she perhaps tell you that Zvonko Cilic

    6 organised it so that she could call you from the

    7 command?

    8 A. No, she told me that Mirko Samija, who was

    9 the chief of the civilian police in Vitez, was the one

    10 who made it possible for her to make her call from the

    11 civilian police in Vitez.

    12 Q. Thank you. Now, since we're on this subject,

    13 why did you leave your family and go to Zenica? Yes,

    14 you told us how it was, but still how did you -- where

    15 did you find the courage to do it, since you must have

    16 been aware and you told us that considerable chaos

    17 reigned in Vitez?

    18 A. I received threats, and I said that

    19 [indiscernible], the man who told me that, that there

    20 was an order to have me killed, I told him that I could

    21 not leave the Vitez --

    22 JUDGE MAY: This is cross-examination.

    23 MR. SAYERS: I object to that question for

    24 the same reasons as the information was attempted to be

    25 elicited on direct examination. In cross-examination,

  9. 1 it doesn't make the evidence any more or less reliable,

    2 Your Honour, and we're not bound by any questions, I

    3 believe, that Mr. Kovacic asks.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, counsel has a

    5 point. Do you want to pursue this line of

    6 questioning?

    7 MR. KOVACIC: Well, actually I think that it

    8 wasn't a question problem. The answer was the problem,

    9 because the witness is not answering the question. But

    10 I can put it a different way. No problem.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    12 MR. KOVACIC:

    13 Q. Please let us not get into these procedural

    14 problems. Will you tell me another thing? Was that

    15 the first threat that you received, just "Yes" or "No"?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. The first threat?

    18 A. The first threat ever since I began to work

    19 there again on the 19th of April onward.

    20 Q. Was that the first threat in 1993?

    21 A. I said that there was a verbal threat, but

    22 nothing particular, but that was the first serious

    23 threat which was communicated to me directly,

    24 tête-à-tête.

    25 Q. Right. So you went to Zenica. Edib Zlotrg,

  10. 1 you said he was a liaison officer. Was he involved in

    2 the exchange?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes. Thank

    5 you. Could we now see video 2, please? (In English)

    6 Let us play one short excerpt. It's about 10 or 15

    7 seconds, just the one scene I would like the witness to

    8 recognise, if possible.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Has he got a transcript?

    10 MR. KOVACIC: There's no text, just a

    11 picture.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Play the video.

    13 (Videotape played)

    14 JUDGE MAY: Now, I thought you said there was

    15 no text.

    16 MR. KOVACIC: That is the picture we need, so

    17 it's --

    18 JUDGE MAY: This one?

    19 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. All the rest is

    20 irrelevant.

    21 JUDGE MAY: All right. You want it to be

    22 played from here?

    23 MR. KOVACIC: Right, and I would like the

    24 technician to slow down the text, because there is a

    25 comment which has nothing to do with it, with the scene

  11. 1 we see. He's talking about hospitals.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Right. Well, let them know what

    3 you want.

    4 MR. KOVACIC: Okay, thank you. Enough. We

    5 saw what we wanted.

    6 Q. Doctor, do you recognise, we saw it

    7 yesterday, also the building of the craft centre where

    8 you had the health centre; was that it?

    9 A. Yes, that's where it was.

    10 Q. Can you recognise this damage done to the

    11 roof? Was it an explosion?

    12 A. When I was there, there was no damage.

    13 Q. So this didn't happen while you were there?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. But did you then afterwards hear that the

    16 roof of the building was hit?

    17 A. I heard that a shell had fallen in the

    18 vicinity, in the neighbourhood of that building, but I

    19 heard about it when the war was over.

    20 Q. And this craft centre is in the heart of the

    21 town?

    22 A. Well, that whole centre is within that block

    23 of buildings. Well, I mean it is a craft centre, so it

    24 is -- there were many shops there, and I heard that a

    25 coffee shop had been hit during the war. But I learned

  12. 1 about that later, that in that block of buildings or

    2 outlets, one shop had been hit.

    3 Q. All right, thank you. Just one more

    4 question, and that will be it.

    5 I'm referring to the communication of the

    6 coordinating committee, and I'm not going into it, but

    7 it referred to the language that was to be used in

    8 schools. Do you know what I'm referring to, Doctor?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So will you please tell me just one thing?

    11 Which language, that is, the previous school year,

    12 which language was used in schools in the municipality

    13 of Vitez during the previous school year?

    14 A. Well, that language was called

    15 Serbo-Croatian.

    16 Q. Or --

    17 A. Croato-Serbian.

    18 Q. At that time, was there some form of that

    19 common language, if I may say so, in the territory of

    20 the former Yugoslavia which was used in Bosnia? Was

    21 there another official name to refer to Bosnia?

    22 A. Formerly, the authorities -- that is, prior

    23 to 1990, the authorities did not approve officially

    24 that it be called the Bosnian language.

    25 Q. Right, thank you. And will you tell us,

  13. 1 please, textbooks, school textbooks, were evidently

    2 books which were published during the SFRY which no

    3 longer existed, which had become obsolete; is that

    4 true?

    5 A. Well, textbooks were published, as far as I

    6 know, because I'm not an educator and I did not really

    7 pay much attention to that. But there was the

    8 publishing house Svijetlost, in Sarajevo. There were

    9 the curricula adopted by the government of the Republic

    10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina applicable throughout the

    11 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    12 Q. But tell us, did you have an opportunity to

    13 hear that people were protesting against those

    14 textbooks, which were crammed with facts and knowledge

    15 about the former Yugoslavia and so on and so forth?

    16 Were people protesting against it?

    17 A. Do you mean educators?

    18 Q. I mean not only educators, all the educated

    19 people, I mean all the people involved with education.

    20 Your children are already big. I mean they are out of

    21 school.

    22 A. Well, that is not true. My son is now 18 and

    23 a half.

    24 Q. So, did you, as a parent --

    25 A. Well, I do think there were some protests,

  14. 1 but I don't really know much about that. I know that

    2 some people were against it. I think that sometime in

    3 September, the HVO introduced the curriculum of the

    4 Republic of Croatia in Vitez, and I know that the

    5 Bosniak side protested against that.

    6 Also, a teacher, Arifa Tunovic, was killed in

    7 Vitez.

    8 Q. Let's stick to our topic.

    9 A. And, no, I mean because of linguistic

    10 problems, because she was the teacher of the mother

    11 tongue. And from what I heard, I think she refused to

    12 switch to the Croatian language.

    13 Q. Right, right. But will you please just

    14 confirm the following or deny? The textbooks that

    15 existed at the time, and we're referring to 1993, they

    16 were obviously published during the ex-Yugoslavia,

    17 which at that time did not exist and which was the

    18 aggressor?

    19 A. I really don't know if all the textbooks were

    20 published, so in all likelihood, they all were

    21 published then.

    22 Q. Doctor, just wait. Do you really believe

    23 that during that chaos of 1992, any textbook would be

    24 published in the territory of Bosnia or Croatia?

    25 A. I believe this was very difficult.

  15. 1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Okay, Doctor.

    2 Thank you very much for your testimony, and I'm sorry

    3 if I bored you, but you've come here to help all of us.

    4 Thank you very much.

    5 A. Thank you.

    6 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I have no

    7 further questions.

    8 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers.

    9 Q. Good morning, Dr. Mujezinovic. My name is

    10 Steve Sayers, and I'm from Alexandria, Virginia. I

    11 represent Dario Kordic, and I have just a few questions

    12 for you today.

    13 Since I'm not speaking in your language, I

    14 don't want to give the interpreters fits, and I've been

    15 told that I tend to speak a little quickly, so it would

    16 help if you would answer the questions "Yes" or "No,"

    17 or as short as possible, and we'll be through with you

    18 as soon as we can.

    19 Is that all right?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Now, as I understand it, Dr. Mujezinovic,

    22 you've actually given four separate statements to the

    23 Prosecutors over the course of your involvement with

    24 these cases, spanning, it looks like, a four-year

    25 period.

  16. 1 A. I think I did.

    2 Q. The first statement you gave on March the

    3 1st, 1995; right?

    4 A. Yes. I made this first statement in 1993. I

    5 don't remember the exact date.

    6 Q. All right. The first one that we have from

    7 you is actually dated March the 1st, 1995, Dr.

    8 Mujezinovic. Are you saying that you actually made an

    9 earlier statement to the Prosecutors in 1993?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Who did you give a statement to in 1993,

    12 then?

    13 A. To the investigators of the Tribunal from The

    14 Hague, from this Tribunal.

    15 Q. That was in 1993, was it?

    16 A. No, no, in 1995.

    17 Q. All right. That was just a translation

    18 error.

    19 The second statement that you gave to the

    20 Office of the Prosecutor was over a three-day period

    21 from January 13th -- sorry, July the 13th to July the

    22 16th, 1995; is that correct?

    23 A. As far as I can recollect, I gave three

    24 statements in the course of 1995.

    25 Q. All right. We only have two of them. The

  17. 1 second one that we have is from July the 13th through

    2 July the 16th, 1995. Do you recall giving statements

    3 to the Prosecutors during that period of time and

    4 having them reduced to writing and actually signing

    5 that statement as a truthful and accurate version of

    6 what had happened?

    7 A. No, I was extremely dissatisfied with the

    8 translation into Bosnian, and I requested certain

    9 corrections to be made, which were never made or,

    10 rather, I don't know whether they were made.

    11 Q. But you signed that statement as being

    12 factually accurate, didn't you, Doctor?

    13 A. Yes, but in agreement that corrections be

    14 made, because I was not satisfied with the translation.

    15 Q. All right. Well, when did you make those

    16 corrections to the incorrect statement that you had

    17 signed?

    18 A. I really don't know.

    19 Q. Do you know whether any corrections were made

    20 to that inaccurate statement, sir, ever?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. All right. The next statement you gave to

    23 the Prosecutors was on February the 3rd of 1997; right,

    24 sir?

    25 A. I said that as far as I can remember, it was

  18. 1 in 1995. I think there were three statements, but I'm

    2 not sure; two or three.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please

    4 speak into the microphone?

    5 MR. SAYERS: Yes, sorry.

    6 Q. I believe the Trial Chamber has been

    7 presented with an assembled package of all of your

    8 statements, Dr. Mujezinovic, and one of them, the third

    9 one, in fact, is actually dated February the 3rd of

    10 1997. Do you remember giving that statement to

    11 Mr. Gregory Kehoe, assisted by Lejla Avdagic?

    12 A. Yes, I do remember that I made a statement in

    13 1997 in the office of the Tribunal in Sarajevo, in

    14 1997.

    15 Q. And that was actually a few months before you

    16 gave testimony in the Blaskic case; correct?

    17 A. I think so.

    18 Q. But you didn't point out the factual errors

    19 that were contained in your July 1995 statement in that

    20 February the 3rd, 1997 statement, did you?

    21 A. I was always complaining about it. Two days

    22 ago, I complained here that the translation wasn't

    23 good.

    24 Q. And the fourth written statement that you

    25 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, Dr. Mujezinovic,

  19. 1 was six months after you had testified in the Blaskic

    2 case, and it was given on March the 14th, 1998, to an

    3 individual named Spork; is that correct?

    4 A. I don't know. If that is what it says, it's

    5 probably correct. As far as I can remember, I made

    6 statements in '95 and '97.

    7 Q. Would it assist you to see the statement that

    8 you signed on March the 14th, 1998, to jog your memory

    9 as to whether you had actually made that statement?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 MR. SAYERS: If I may, Your Honour, I believe

    12 you already have the English and the Croatian, and I

    13 have an extra copy here for the witness, if that

    14 would --

    15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness have the

    16 copy.

    17 MR. SAYERS: Yes, sir.

    18 Q. Next question, Dr. Mujezinovic: Is that an

    19 accurate copy of your signature on the bottom of the

    20 first page of the English version of your March the

    21 14th, 1998, statement to the Prosecutors?

    22 A. Yes, this is my signature.

    23 Q. You didn't point out the factual inaccuracies

    24 in the July 1995 statement to the Prosecutors anywhere

    25 in that statement, did you, sir?

  20. 1 A. I must repeat once again that I did complain

    2 of the poor quality of the translations, and I don't

    3 know what it says here in the English version.

    4 Q. Do you remember, sir, in the Blaskic case, on

    5 August the 20th, 1997, being shown a copy of your July

    6 1995 statement by Mr. Hayman?

    7 A. No. This was two years ago. I think I spent

    8 three days in the courtroom. I was shown quite a

    9 number of these texts in the courtroom, as I have been

    10 shown yesterday and today, my statements, video

    11 recordings. I don't know exactly what he showed me.

    12 Q. Very well. Perhaps we can be of assistance.

    13 MR. SAYERS: With the Trial Chamber's

    14 permission, I have actually prepared little excerpt of

    15 the relevant cross-examination on this particular

    16 statement, and I think it will be of great assistance

    17 to the Trial Chamber in evaluating the --

    18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, what is it that this

    19 is leading to?

    20 MR. SAYERS: It's leading to this, Your

    21 Honour, if I can just precise this: Basically,

    22 Mr. Hayman pointed out that there was a reference made

    23 in the July 1995 statement that Dr. Mujezinovic had

    24 supposedly given, and he pointed out in that statement

    25 that Mr. Darko Kraljevic, supposedly, was being treated

  21. 1 by him as a result of a drug-induced psychosis, that he

    2 was suffering from an overdose of cocaine, and that

    3 treatment was given to him in that regard. That's

    4 exactly what the statement says on page 4, I believe.

    5 Dr. Mujezinovic, when confronted with that

    6 statement, it was said -- I think he used the word

    7 "absurd," factually inaccurate, that he pointed out

    8 that inaccuracy to the Prosecutor's representatives who

    9 had actually taken that statement and was told, "Don't

    10 worry about it."

    11 If I may, I'd just like to address a question

    12 to the witness to see if that jogs his memory at all

    13 about that particular exchange, and if it doesn't, I

    14 have the relevant exchange here in black and white for

    15 him to --

    16 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please slow down,

    17 Mr. Sayers.

    18 JUDGE MAY: The witness has heard what it is

    19 that you are going to put, and perhaps he can deal with

    20 it straightaway.

    21 Do you remember that, Doctor, being put in

    22 the Blaskic trial, and giving those answers?

    23 A. Yes, Your Honours. I said at the time that

    24 we doctors may suspect something, but in order to prove

    25 it, and to establish a firm diagnosis, we need to have

  22. 1 sound arguments. I may have had my doubts, but I

    2 wasn't absolutely specific about it, and I did not say

    3 this. I complained about it. I also said that no

    4 nurse could make such a statement either.

    5 MR. SAYERS: Well, since that goes to an

    6 issue in the case, I would like to have this exchange

    7 marked as an exhibit for future reference, Your Honour,

    8 if I may.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    10 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: This is D16/1.

    12 MR. SAYERS:

    13 Q. Do you read or understand English at all,

    14 Dr. Mujezinovic?

    15 A. I understand English to be able to read

    16 medical literature, but I know very little English, in

    17 fact.

    18 Q. All right, Dr. Mujezinovic. You actually

    19 pointed out on page 1816 that the translation was, in

    20 your view, absurd?

    21 JUDGE MAY: Where is this in our transcripts,

    22 please?

    23 MR. SAYERS: I think it's page 1816, Your

    24 Honour. If you take a look at -- the page numbers are

    25 actually in the middle of the pages; it's actually

  23. 1 three pages in. The answer begins on Line 21.

    2 Q. But I think the point you were making,

    3 Dr. Mujezinovic, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the

    4 point you were making to the Prosecutors is, when you

    5 saw this, you actually told them that this was an

    6 incorrect factual statement, this statement that was

    7 supposedly contained in the statement regarding

    8 Mr. Darko Kraljevic. Is that correct?

    9 A. As far as I can remember, I have already said

    10 that I protested, but it is customary in medicine for

    11 us to have a working diagnosis, but to be able to have

    12 an exact diagnosis, it is not customary except if we

    13 have some firm confirmation: Laboratory tests, EKG,

    14 x-rays, ultrasound tests, and so on. Only once we have

    15 those tests can we establish the official diagnosis. I

    16 didn't have a laboratory to be able to make those

    17 tests. I may have had my suspicions, because my

    18 colleagues suspected, as I said, that this was a heart

    19 attack, but it obviously was not.

    20 Q. I understand, Dr. Mujezinovic. I think that

    21 we are like two ships passing in the night here a

    22 little bit. I think my question was, had you pointed

    23 this factual inaccuracy out to the Prosecutors before

    24 you were actually asked to sign this statement?

    25 A. I complained to the Prosecutors about the

  24. 1 translation and explained that I could not have said

    2 that explicitly. I didn't say what I saw written, and

    3 as far as I can remember, the Prosecution told me that

    4 the corrections would be made.

    5 Q. Do you know whether they ever were?

    6 A. I really don't know.

    7 Q. Did you know that that statement had actually

    8 been presented to the Trial Chamber and referred to in

    9 a road map of your testimony, at least what the Office

    10 of the Prosecutor expected your testimony to be,

    11 without those corrections having been made?

    12 A. I don't understand the question, I'm afraid.

    13 Q. Did you know that an uncorrected copy of your

    14 July 1995 statement had been presented to the Trial

    15 Chamber and referred to in a little outline of what the

    16 Prosecutor had expected your testimony to be?

    17 A. I denied that in the courtroom, and I said

    18 what I have just said to you.

    19 Q. Well, let's move on a little. You were asked

    20 some questions by the Prosecutor about this fellow,

    21 Darko Kraljevic, and the HOS troops that he commanded.

    22 And in response to a question from Judge Bennouna, I

    23 believe, you made reference to the fact that the HOS

    24 was the military arm of a party called the Croatian

    25 Party of Rights, or the HSP. Do you recall that

  25. 1 testimony?

    2 A. Yes, I do. As far as I know, that was the

    3 military arm of the Croatian Party of Rights.

    4 Q. Right. And the HSP is a completely distinct

    5 and separate political party from the HDZ; you would

    6 agree with that, wouldn't you?

    7 A. I was not familiar with the programme, but

    8 they are two different parties.

    9 Q. All right. Now, did I understand you to say

    10 that you treated Mr. Kraljevic prior to the time that

    11 you acquired these statements that you've related to

    12 the Trial Chamber, you treated him for suspected

    13 alcohol toxicity by intravenous injections of the drug

    14 diazepam?

    15 A. I didn't put it like that.

    16 Q. Well, did you treat him for suspected alcohol

    17 toxicity with the drug diazepam, sir? "Yes" or "no"?

    18 A. I said that he was given diazepam

    19 intramuscularly and that he was given an injection for

    20 detoxification with alcohol.

    21 Q. The trade name of diazepam is actually

    22 Valium, isn't it?

    23 A. Yes. Diazepam. I don't know whether it's

    24 called valium in America. We call it diazepam or

    25 apaurin. I don't know what its name is in America.

  26. 1 Q. But the point is it's a central nervous

    2 system depressant, isn't it, just like alcohol?

    3 A. No, it's a drug to treat anxiety, which

    4 relaxes.

    5 Q. So one would feel, within a short period of

    6 time from having been injected with this drug, a sense

    7 of euphoria; right?

    8 A. No, quite the opposite.

    9 Q. Well, you stated, sir, that it was in the

    10 course of these sessions when he was having injections

    11 -- and I'm quoting now from page 50 of the LiveNote,

    12 at lines 15 to 22: In the course of these sessions

    13 when he was having injections, then he would relate to

    14 you the conversations that he was having with Messrs.

    15 Skopljak, Valenta, and Cerkez. Is that true?

    16 A. Yes, that is what I said, that he was

    17 particularly referring to Pero Skopljak and Anto

    18 Valenta, and yesterday I said that he would

    19 occasionally talk to Cerkez as well.

    20 Q. Well, Doctor, let's get to the heart of the

    21 matter. In your view, this gentleman was

    22 psychologically unstable, explosive, I believe, to use

    23 your word. Is that correct?

    24 A. I said that he could be explosive at times,

    25 that his moods would change, that he was a man who was

  27. 1 unpredictable, his reactions were unpredictable, and in

    2 my opinion, I said that he was rather unstable, that he

    3 didn't have a firm character, in the sense that if he

    4 took a decision, that he would really stick to it.

    5 This was a young man, full of strength and energy, and

    6 he wanted to assert himself. That is my understanding

    7 of him. A good-looking young man, well built,

    8 physically.

    9 Q. Well, do you remember testifying two years

    10 ago that this was not a stable person

    11 psychologically? "With such people you cannot foresee

    12 what their next reaction will be. He was

    13 psychologically unstable, explosive"?

    14 A. For two days I have been repeating the same

    15 thing. I really don't know what you want of me.

    16 Q. You agree that you did say that two years

    17 ago, in the Blaskic case, when you were talking on the

    18 subject of Mr. Kraljevic?

    19 MR. NICE: I wonder if Mr. Sayers could

    20 provide the page reference. It's not in the transcript

    21 that he has provided.

    22 MR. SAYERS: Yes, I can show the witness the

    23 pages I want. It's page 1826 and 1827 of the Blaskic

    24 trial transcript.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps, Mr. Sayers, we can get

  28. 1 through this as rapidly as possible. There's no need

    2 to put to the witness whether he remembers saying

    3 things. He may well not. It's perfectly

    4 understandable. If you want to refer to specific items

    5 in the evidence, you can do so.

    6 MR. SAYERS: I don't want to waste time and

    7 flog a dead horse, Your Honour, in the interest of

    8 expediency, but let me just see if I can jog his

    9 memory.

    10 Q. Do you remember saying, sir, in response to

    11 cross-examination on August the 21st, that

    12 Mr. Kraljevic was not a stable person psychologically?

    13 A. I said that in my opinion, he was an unstable

    14 person. In my opinion.

    15 Q. But you agree that you gave that testimony

    16 two years ago?

    17 A. As far as I can recollect, I said that in my

    18 opinion, he was an unstable person of whom you never

    19 knew how he would react at a particular time. That was

    20 my opinion as a doctor, as a man, as an individual, as

    21 far as I knew him.

    22 Allow me to say that I knew Darko Kraljevic

    23 just as somebody from Vitez, a young, well-built man

    24 who wanted to be important. I didn't have much contact

    25 with him. I didn't treat him before. I went to treat

  29. 1 his family members, his grandmother, grandfather, but

    2 Darko Kraljevic had not consulted me, at least, for any

    3 health problems.

    4 Q. All right. Now, it's true, isn't it, that

    5 the troops under the command of this psychologically

    6 stable (sic) or explosive individual were responsible

    7 for much of the criminal activity, at least in your

    8 view, that was going on in Vitez in the first -- over

    9 the latter half of 1992 and the first part of 1993; is

    10 that correct?

    11 A. As far as I know, there has to be an order

    12 for all military operations. Now, who issued the

    13 orders, I really don't know.

    14 Q. All right. Do you recall, sir, giving

    15 testimony either yesterday or the day before to the

    16 effect that at some point, the HOS troops became

    17 incorporated into the HVO?

    18 A. Yes, they changed their name. They became a

    19 special purpose unit called the Vitezovi.

    20 Q. Do you know --

    21 A. And this was announced in public, on local

    22 television, that Darko Kraljevic had been promoted to

    23 the commander of that unit with the rank of colonel.

    24 Until then, as far as I can recollect, people were not

    25 going around with ranks. There were former JNA

  30. 1 officers -- we mentioned one of them yesterday,

    2 Filipovic. I think he was a Lieutenant-Colonel in the

    3 former JNA, or a Major, I'm not quite sure -- but in

    4 any event, then there was Ramiz Dugalic in Vitez who

    5 was a major in the former JNA. There were captains who

    6 came and said that they held such-and-such a rank.

    7 Regarding ranks, this was the first time I heard that

    8 ranks were being introduced into the HVO.

    9 Q. I think you would agree, doctor, that these

    10 were turbulent times, both from a military perspective

    11 and a perspective of society in general, with the

    12 break-up of the former communist state of Yugoslavia,

    13 the secession of various constituent republics, and a

    14 state of civil war being threatened in the first part

    15 of 1991; isn't that correct?

    16 A. In the first half of '91?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. There was war in Croatia then, and in Vitez,

    19 we were afraid that it might spill over into

    20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At that time, and I said so

    21 yesterday, the crisis staff was set up in Vitez

    22 precisely because of that, because the immediate danger

    23 of war and difficulties with communications,

    24 difficulties with regular supplies of citizens, and the

    25 situation was difficult.

  31. 1 Q. All right. Well, let's try to approach this

    2 chronologically. It's true, I believe, that the Croats

    3 and the Muslims voted overwhelmingly at a national

    4 referendum held on February the 29th, 1992, and March

    5 the 1st, 1992, in favour of the establishment of a

    6 newly independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

    7 correct? You would agree with that?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And this newly independent state, sir, was

    10 born in an atmosphere of impending civil war, wasn't

    11 it?

    12 A. Yes, the Serb Democratic Party in the

    13 assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, its

    14 president, threatened -- we saw it on television -- he

    15 threatened that if Bosnia and Herzegovina were

    16 recognised as an independent state or republic, then

    17 the Serb people would not accept that and that they

    18 would fight against it.

    19 Q. And I believe that the state of

    20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared to be independent on

    21 March the 3rd of 1991, just two days after the

    22 conclusion of the national referendum; is that correct?

    23 A. Possibly. I know it was the former half of

    24 1991, after the referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when

    25 the Croats and Muslims, Bosniaks, voted almost

  32. 1 100 per cent for an autonomous republic. There were

    2 also some Serbs, but very few and far between.

    3 Q. All right. I think I may have misspoken,

    4 Dr. Mujezinovic. I said 1991, but it was actually

    5 1992, wasn't it, when the Republic of

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared?

    7 A. Yes, yes, I don't think -- it was '92, yes.

    8 Q. If I may, I just have a few documents that I

    9 would like to go over with you that track fairly

    10 chronologically, and I have put together these

    11 documents in chronological order for the Bench, the

    12 Prosecutor, you, and co-counsel, if I may.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the documents be

    14 placed on the ELMO, please, for the benefit of the

    15 interpreters.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The bundle will be marked

    17 D17/1.

    18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, we were saying to the

    19 Registrar that it really is very hot in here, and I

    20 suspect that everybody is feeling it. Therefore, we've

    21 requested to move to the other court, and we'll see if

    22 we can do it by the break, if possible, or after the

    23 break.

    24 MR. SAYERS: I thought I was experiencing the

    25 signs of premature ageing, Your Honour, in all candour.

  33. 1 Q. The first document, Dr. Mujezinovic, just to

    2 bring the Trial Chamber up to speed, appears to be a

    3 decree issued by the presidency of the brand-new State

    4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, within actually about a month of

    5 its establishment, with a state of imminent threat of

    6 war?

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be placed on the

    8 ELMO, please, for the interpreters?

    9 MR. SAYERS: Usher, if you would place that

    10 on the ELMO for the interpreters, I've just received a

    11 request for that, although we're not going to spend

    12 very much time on this.

    13 Q. There's really only one question, Dr.

    14 Mujezinovic. You do recall this decree being issued by

    15 the presidency of the newly-independent republic?

    16 A. Let me see. Yes, I do remember. It was

    17 announced on television, broadcast on radio. There was

    18 a lot of talk about it at the time. I mean it wasn't

    19 only me who knew about this. Any person who could read

    20 and write and who would listen knew about this.

    21 Q. Right. I totally agree with that. In April

    22 of 1992, that's when Sarajevo was surrounded and the

    23 town of Bijeljina was attacked by Serbian forces;

    24 right?

    25 A. I don't know the exact date, but it is

  34. 1 correct that Sarajevo was attacked, and Bijeljina too,

    2 1992. The first half; April, most probably.

    3 Q. Is it fair to say that as of April of 1992

    4 and proceeding throughout, really, the rest of 1992 and

    5 1993, notwithstanding your views as to the previous

    6 ethnic harmony, if you like, between the three

    7 constituent peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the

    8 decades before, a state of vicious civil war existed?

    9 You would have to agree with that, wouldn't you?

    10 A. At the time in Vitez, we did not -- or I

    11 personally did not have that feeling. At official

    12 meetings, there was a danger of conflicts breaking out

    13 because that threat had been pronounced in the assembly

    14 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    15 Q. I'm not just talking on the municipal level

    16 of Vitez, Dr. Mujezinovic. I'm taking a bit more of a

    17 broader view than that, a national view. It would be

    18 fair to say that throughout your country, within a

    19 month of its establishment, a vicious civil war was

    20 unleashed by one of the ethnic minorities in that

    21 country upon the other two ethnic minorities; that

    22 would be fair to say, and you would have to agree with

    23 that, wouldn't you?

    24 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we've dealt with

    25 that. Mr. Sayers, that question is really a matter of

  35. 1 argument and comment.

    2 MR. SAYERS: I will move on swiftly, Your

    3 Honour.

    4 JUDGE MAY: If you would. You did tell us

    5 yesterday you would be half an hour.

    6 MR. SAYERS: I know, and I feel great

    7 recrimination for that. I don't want to mislead the

    8 Bench in the least.

    9 Q. You were asked a question yesterday about

    10 refugees, Dr. Mujezinovic. Do you know what the

    11 population of the town of Vitez was in 1991, according

    12 to the census?

    13 A. As far as I can remember, the population of

    14 the municipality was some 20.000.

    15 Q. Well, actually the population of the town

    16 itself was 7.200, wasn't it?

    17 A. Thereabouts, yes, the urban part of it is not

    18 more than that.

    19 Q. And as I understand the response that you

    20 made, I believe, to questions from the Bench, from the

    21 autumn of 1991 and throughout 1992 and 1993, refugees

    22 came flooding into the central Lasva Valley from the

    23 east, from the west, and from the north.

    24 A. Yes. I said yesterday that the first

    25 refugees arrived from East Croatia, and they were

  36. 1 Croats, and subsequently Bosniak Muslims began to

    2 arrive from East Bosnia in Vitez. More specifically,

    3 we had them from Tjentiste. That was from Foca, then

    4 from Zenica, from Sipovo, that is, the western part of

    5 Bosnia. In Vitez, we had refugees -- I mean Muslims

    6 from those places.

    7 Yesterday, I also said that from Rogatica,

    8 and my wife came from there, about 20 refugees were

    9 accommodated in the house where I lived in Vitez, and

    10 they spent almost nine months in my house.

    11 Q. Well, 25.000 refugees actually left the town

    12 of Jajce when it fell to Serbian attacks at the end of

    13 October of 1992; isn't that right?

    14 A. Yes, I believe it was the end of October,

    15 November. I examined those people, both Croats and

    16 Muslims, and I did examine them in this reserve

    17 location of the health centre. I had heard that there

    18 were some 7.000 Croats from Jajce, but I really do not

    19 remember how many Muslims there were, because there

    20 were other people who were responsible for keeping a

    21 record of that.

    22 Yesterday, I said that the overwhelming

    23 majority of Croats left Vitez. Not very many of them

    24 stayed there. They asked to go to Croatia, to go to

    25 Tomislavgrad, but by and large to Croatia.

  37. 1 Q. As a prominent citizen in the community, Dr.

    2 Mujezinovic, you would agree with me, I take it, that

    3 this massive influx of refugees put a tremendous strain

    4 upon the local resources that you had available, both

    5 in terms of housing, food, medical care, and other

    6 resources too.

    7 A. Excuse me. My family -- I just told you that

    8 in my household, there were 20 refugees, so naturally

    9 that we were put under it -- the whole municipality and

    10 all the households had -- the expenditures rose

    11 steeply, of course. The standard of living began to

    12 drop, because as I was saying, my family had five

    13 members, and all of a sudden there were 20 people more

    14 at home in my household. We were all trying.

    15 At that time, I, I mean as a doctor, was

    16 trying to help all those people, to help them, to put

    17 them up somewhere, to not let them sleep in the park,

    18 in the open, regardless of their ethnic origin.

    19 But it is quite true that there was an

    20 enormous -- a tremendous influx of refugees from Jajce,

    21 and I believe it was late October or perhaps early

    22 November, 1992.

    23 Q. And using your own personal experience, I

    24 think you would agree and you would tell the Trial

    25 Chamber that the strain that that put on available

  38. 1 housing in the area was absolutely tremendous.

    2 A. Why? I already stated where we accommodated

    3 those people; mostly in private homes, those who had

    4 their relatives there, and in summer cottages, and

    5 there were quite a number of those in the villages of

    6 Kruscica, Ahmici, Hrasno. There were a number of such

    7 cottages, and mostly people from Zenica -- I mean

    8 people living in Zenica had those cottages.

    9 Q. All right. Now, that brings us to the

    10 October 1992 blockade at Ahmici that you talked about.

    11 That was immediately before the fall of Jajce, was it

    12 not?

    13 A. Yes. I said that at the time, I was not in

    14 Vitez, that I spent my weekends working in the Travnik

    15 Hospital. It was only on Monday morning that I learned

    16 of a roadblock in Ahmici, that is, the main regional

    17 road to Split and Banja Luka. In point of fact, we do

    18 not have any other road except for the one that goes to

    19 Doboj or, rather, to Croatia. There were --

    20 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, let me interrupt you. If

    21 you deal with these matters shortly, I hope we can

    22 finish more quickly.

    23 Mr. Sayers, we have been over this ground.

    24 Unless there's something new you want to ask, I suggest

    25 we move on.

  39. 1 MR. SAYERS: Just a couple of cleanup

    2 questions on that.

    3 Q. You would agree that in the autumn of 1992,

    4 sir, there were more people wearing uniforms than there

    5 were not in the population generally; right?

    6 A. What year are you talking about?

    7 Q. '92, sir.

    8 A. Yes, I agree.

    9 Q. All right. You were informed that Mr. Dzemal

    10 Merdan from the 3rd Corps command in Zenica had

    11 actually ordered that roadblock to be installed in

    12 Ahmici; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes, but that is something that I learned at

    14 a later date.

    15 Q. And after the hostilities, sir, and I

    16 appreciate that you don't know about them because you

    17 didn't observe them first-hand, but you and the

    18 political leadership in Vitez cooperated by going on

    19 television and trying to calm down the tensions that

    20 were created as a result of that fighting; isn't that

    21 right?

    22 A. Yesterday, I said that with two local priests

    23 and Pero Skopljak, that we all appeared on the local

    24 television, sometime in the evening of the 23rd, in an

    25 attempt to calm down the situation in Vitez and explain

  40. 1 what it was all about. Munib Kajmovic was also

    2 supposed to go, but he had called me and told me that

    3 he could not, and asked me if I could go in his stead,

    4 so I did.

    5 Q. Now, going to the second document in the

    6 bundle, by the time of the October conflict --

    7 JUDGE MAY: Well, we must give these a

    8 number. The first had better be 17/1.1, and the second

    9 17/1.2.

    10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sayers, before you

    11 continue, I just want to have a clarification on the

    12 answer that was given to your question that there were

    13 more people wearing uniforms than there were not in the

    14 population generally. I would just like to have an

    15 explanation of that. Exactly what does that mean?

    16 There were more uniformed persons than there were

    17 civilians?

    18 MR. SAYERS: You're absolutely right, Judge

    19 Robinson. That was not a question that was

    20 characterised by a phenomenal amount of artistry, and

    21 I'll see if I can clear it up.

    22 Q. Would it be fair to say, Dr. Mujezinovic, in

    23 response to Judge Robinson's question, that there were

    24 more civilians, more male civilians, people of military

    25 age, who were actually wearing uniforms in the latter

  41. 1 half of 1992 than were actually wearing civilian

    2 clothes?

    3 A. As far as I can remember, and yesterday I

    4 think some evidence was shown, that there were many

    5 conscripts in uniforms of the HVO, the Territorial

    6 Defence, the HOS also in the first half. There were

    7 quite a number of men wearing uniforms. At the time, I

    8 would go through by car, and I saw them in the streets.

    9 Q. So as you were driving through the streets,

    10 just to follow up on this, you would see more people in

    11 uniform than out of uniform; is that correct?

    12 A. No. Let me tell you. In the town itself, to

    13 the best of my knowledge and memory, the Territorial

    14 Defence or, rather, the staff of the Territorial

    15 Defence at that time was sending units in the direction

    16 of Sarajevo and Vlasic, and I also heard at the time

    17 that the HVO was also sending its units to Vlasic. So

    18 in the town itself, as these units were being sent also

    19 to the ground, there were not very many of them. There

    20 were uniformed individuals, but those units were being

    21 sent out to the field.

    22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,

    23 I believe that this line of questioning is leading us

    24 nowhere. Could you go on to something else, because

    25 this is leading nowhere. You know how much time is

  42. 1 valuable, and everybody's time, including that of the

    2 accused. So we have to go further. We don't see what

    3 this all means.

    4 MR. SAYERS: Very well, Your Honour. I take

    5 that and will try to move on.

    6 Q. Turning your attention to Exhibit D17/1.2, do

    7 you recognise this as the decree issued on June the

    8 20th, 1992, declaring a state of war in the Republic of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    10 JUDGE MAY: You know, Mr. Sayers, I wonder

    11 about the point of this. You're presenting this

    12 witness with a whole lot of documents which he's not

    13 even seen, and I've been going through it and I got

    14 halfway through, I got to 9 or 10. I don't know how

    15 many documents there are in all. Is this the

    16 appropriate witness, first of all, to put these

    17 documents to?

    18 MR. SAYERS: It may be, Your Honour, because

    19 he was a prominent political figure in Vitez and the

    20 president of the war presidency, which had, according

    21 to his testimony, military power or the power to issue

    22 orders to the army, and I would have thought that he

    23 would be the appropriate witness to authenticate or to

    24 identify this kind of document. But --

    25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. But let us do it more

  43. 1 quickly. Because of the time this witness has been

    2 giving evidence, which is already over two days, it had

    3 been hoped that we could go fairly quickly.

    4 I would also ask you to bear in mind that

    5 relying on the estimates we were given yesterday,

    6 arrangements would have been made for witnesses to come

    7 here, and we need to get through those witnesses this

    8 week. So I'm afraid there will be a time limit on the

    9 amount available for questioning.

    10 Perhaps you can go through fairly quickly

    11 with the witness. Ask him if he can remember the

    12 documents or not, number them, and move on.

    13 MR. SAYERS: I will do that, Your Honour.

    14 MR. NICE: Can I interrupt for this purpose

    15 only? Of course, if the Defence choose to present me

    16 with a bundle of documents, inviting me to admit them,

    17 I'll deal with it and they can be dealt with

    18 compendiously. It's a matter I was going to raise this

    19 afternoon, in any event.

    20 JUDGE MAY: You mean if you had a chance to

    21 look at these documents, --

    22 MR. NICE: I haven't had a chance --

    23 JUDGE MAY: -- it may be possible to admit

    24 them over the break?

    25 MR. NICE: Well, probably, but certainly if

  44. 1 we're given generally advance notice, we can admit

    2 documents and they can then be incorporated into the

    3 core bundle and so on. Not a problem.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, and that would be much more

    5 helpful, because as it is, we're going to have to go

    6 between the two bundles to pick these documents up.

    7 MR. NICE: Perhaps we can deal with that this

    8 afternoon in our procedural discussion.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    10 Mr. Sayers, what I suggest is this: We'll

    11 adjourn now for our usual break. We'll make it half an

    12 hour, because everyone has got to move. Will you

    13 please discuss these matters with Mr. Nice, see if it's

    14 possible for the documents all to be admitted and

    15 numbered, and then there may not be any need to put

    16 them to the witness unless there are specific matters

    17 you want to raise with him? In that way, I hope that

    18 we can finish his evidence as quickly as possible.

    19 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour, I'll do that.

    20 Thank you.

    21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,

    22 we have to add that the submission of documents has to

    23 have some connection with the testimony itself. This

    24 has to be linked with the testimony that was given.

    25 There has to be a relationship, because we cannot have

  45. 1 the witness coming to testify on a given point, go the

    2 full range of all kinds of things. It has to be linked

    3 to the examination-in-chief.

    4 A. May I, please? Your Honours, may I ask a

    5 question?

    6 JUDGE MAY: You can.

    7 A. This is the fourth day I'm spending in this

    8 courtroom, not the second day.

    9 JUDGE MAY: We've got that in mind. That's

    10 why we're trying to finish and get you home.

    11 Well, if the break could be spent profitably,

    12 we'll sit again at quarter to 11.00 (sic) and with a

    13 view to having this witness finished within half an

    14 hour.

    15 A. Thank you very much.

    16 JUDGE MAY: We'll meet again in courtroom 2.

    17 --- Recess taken at 11.12 a.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

    20 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I have conferred

    21 with Mr. Nice over the break, and the documents that we

    22 have presented to the Trial Chamber I believe are not

    23 objectionable to the Prosecution. They consist of

    24 three things. The first two documents are official

    25 documents from the official published lists of the

  46. 1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; the other category

    2 of documents are documents that are within the

    3 Prosecution's own core bundle, and the other category

    4 of documents are documents that exist and were

    5 introduced as exhibits in Blaskic.

    6 Your Honours, mindful of your injunction that

    7 this gentleman has been testifying for four days, and

    8 with your permission, I'm not going to go through those

    9 with him. I would like to finish up this

    10 cross-examination with about ten minutes of questions

    11 on topics which were directly covered by this gentleman

    12 in direct examination.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    14 MR. SAYERS:

    15 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, you testified that you

    16 assumed the chairman of the war presidency on February

    17 the 2nd, 1993; right?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. That made you the leader of the Muslim

    20 community in Vitez at that time; right?

    21 A. (No translation)

    22 Q. And that gave you supreme authority in the

    23 municipality along with your colleagues on the war

    24 presidency, and that included control over the army;

    25 right?

  47. 1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sayers, we had no

    2 translation to the question, "That made you the leader

    3 of the Muslim community in Vitez."

    4 MR. SAYERS:

    5 Q. It did make you the leader of the Muslim

    6 community in Vitez, did it not, Dr. Mujezinovic?

    7 A. I became president of the war presidency, a

    8 body that was taking decisions, passing orders,

    9 recommendations, conclusions, and we implemented

    10 everything we received from the presidency and

    11 government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    12 Q. (Microphone not activated) ... control over

    13 the Muslim military forces in your area; right?

    14 A. The military forces in Vitez and the police

    15 could not undertake any action without our approval.

    16 Q. Right. And as chairman of the war

    17 presidency, Dr. Mujezinovic, you were fully informed

    18 about the numbers of troops, equipment, and

    19 dispositions of the TO troops in the Vitez area? You

    20 testified about that just last Friday in the Kupreskic

    21 case, did you not?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. You were provided with the exact deployments

    24 and dispositions of each of the units of the army of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Territorial Defence within

  48. 1 your area; right?

    2 A. I had the deployment and disposition of the

    3 HVO units as well.

    4 Q. I understand, sir, but you knew about --

    5 there's no question that you knew about the

    6 dispositions of the TO and ABiH units in Vitez before

    7 April the 16th, 1993, outbreak of hostilities. That's

    8 correct, is it not?

    9 A. Yes, we had to report all military facilities

    10 to UNPROFOR, and the location of all armed forces, and

    11 this was reported by members of the army.

    12 Q. And the BiH army actually had wartime units

    13 in Stari Vitez prior to the outbreak of hostilities in

    14 the middle of April; that is correct, is it not?

    15 A. Yes, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had the

    16 defence staff in Stari Vitez, and the deployment of the

    17 brigade that we had was not stationed in Stari Vitez,

    18 only the Defence headquarters of Vitez, the commander

    19 of which was Sefkjia Dzidic.

    20 Q. But the army had units in the surrounding

    21 villages, such as Kruscica, Preocica, and Poculica;

    22 isn't that right?

    23 A. That is right. Only those units were mobile,

    24 and they went to the front lines.

    25 Q. And these were all units of the 325th

  49. 1 Mountain Brigade; is that not correct?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And that brigade actually included men from

    4 the villages of Santici, Pirici, and Ahmici as well,

    5 did it not?

    6 A. Yes, military conscripts, and I already said

    7 that all able-bodied adults were either in the army or

    8 in the defence staff or in the police or in the civil

    9 defence, which meant the entire population had certain

    10 assignments, because the danger of war had been

    11 declared, and there was a kind of mobilisation.

    12 Q. Exactly. And that included men who lived in

    13 the villages that I just mentioned: Santici, Pirici,

    14 and Ahmici?

    15 A. Yes. Yes.

    16 Q. Now, as president of the war presidency

    17 throughout 1993 and 1994, what personal responsibility

    18 or duty did you have to ensure that criminals who had

    19 been apprehended, and were within the judicial system

    20 being prosecuted, actually had their cases disposed

    21 of? Did you have any responsibility to do that once

    22 the criminal investigation had begun?

    23 A. The war presidency had, as I said, it issued

    24 orders, conclusions, and recommendations, and the order

    25 was that all criminals, if any, as well as those who

  50. 1 did not respect the rules, should be taken into custody

    2 by the military police if they were military men or by

    3 the civilian police, and that proceedings be instituted

    4 against them.

    5 Q. But the point I'm making, Dr. Mujezinovic, is

    6 that once that process had begun, once these people

    7 suspected of criminal activity had actually been

    8 apprehended, you and your colleagues on the war

    9 presidency relied upon the legal system to carry

    10 through to its end without intervening, yourselves;

    11 isn't that correct?

    12 A. If a soldier was in question, the soldiers

    13 were apprehended by the military police of the BH

    14 army. There was a military court in Zenica and a

    15 prison in Zenica, and they, the military court,

    16 conducted the proceedings against people suspected of

    17 having violated the rules.

    18 Q. That's exactly right, Dr. Mujezinovic.

    19 That's the point I'm making, that once these people had

    20 been made subjects of the criminal justice system, such

    21 as it existed, even in the military context, you left

    22 the administration of that process, the wheels of

    23 justice, so to speak, to move in their own way, without

    24 becoming involved yourself; isn't that right?

    25 A. We did not interfere in the work of the

  51. 1 courts or their decisions. They had their own rules of

    2 procedure, and the court was independent of us. We

    3 couldn't have an influence over the decisions of the

    4 court.

    5 Q. That is right, sir, and if you had tried to

    6 interfere or in any way monitor the progress of the

    7 criminal investigations, you would have been told that

    8 that's a matter for the criminal justice system and not

    9 a matter within your competence; isn't that true?

    10 A. Yes, exactly. That was within the competence

    11 of the military or the civilian court. It was not

    12 within our sphere of competence. Our responsibility

    13 was to have all suspects apprehended and proceedings

    14 started against them. At the war presidency we had a

    15 very clear stand in that regard, because we really did

    16 wish to have peace restored, and we wanted to avoid

    17 conflict. We requested from the army commanders and

    18 the chiefs of the civilian police to strictly respect

    19 the rules of duty or, rather, the recommendations of

    20 the presidency and government of the Republic of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Well, Doctor, I think we've

    23 covered the point. Thank you.

    24 MR. SAYERS:

    25 Q. Now, you've testified about the most serious

  52. 1 incident that you're aware of involving ABiH troops,

    2 an incident at which six HVO soldiers were beaten up

    3 shortly before the outbreak of the April 1993

    4 hostilities; is that correct?

    5 A. Yes, at the end of November, two soldiers of

    6 the BH army were killed on the road from Vitez to the

    7 village of Kruscica. One was called Huso Haric, and

    8 the other was, I think, Esad Mujo. We insisted, and

    9 orders were issued by the local commander, that the

    10 first HVO unit that arrives --

    11 Q. Doctor, I don't mean to be impolite, but I

    12 just asked you if that was your testimony and not to

    13 repeat the testimony.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, you are not being

    15 impolite. It is the duty of counsel to control the

    16 witnesses. If there is some point on which you don't

    17 need the evidence, then it's your duty to interrupt.

    18 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    19 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, the village of Dusina is

    20 just a few kilometres down the road from Vitez, is it

    21 not?

    22 A. I think it is about 18 or 20 kilometres

    23 away. I don't know exactly.

    24 Q. Did you know that 13 Croat civilians had been

    25 massacred in the village of Dusina on January the 25th

  53. 1 and 26th, 1993, sir?

    2 A. I had heard about it, but I'm really not

    3 familiar with the details about Dusina.

    4 Q. Did you know that three HVO officers and

    5 their driver had been kidnapped, supposedly by the 7th

    6 Muslim Brigade forces, on April the 14th, 1993, sir?

    7 A. No. As far that case is concerned, there

    8 were such cases, but I'm not familiar with the

    9 details. I know what happened in Vitez. As for the

    10 broader region, I can just tell you what I had heard,

    11 that there were incidents in Travnik, Zenica -- you

    12 mentioned the village of Dusina, I mentioned the

    13 village of Kruscica -- Busovaca. There were incidents

    14 on both sides.

    15 Q. Well, turning to the last one of those

    16 incidents that I would like to draw the Trial Chamber's

    17 attention to, you were aware that commander Zivko Totic

    18 had been kidnapped by the 7th Muslim Brigade in Zenica

    19 on April the 15th, 1993, were you not?

    20 A. No. No, I was not.

    21 Q. Did you not see televised, sir, the pictures

    22 of commander Zivko Totic's bodyguard, consisting of

    23 three people, shot by approximately 100 bullets, shot

    24 to death in Zenica on the 15th of April, 1993?

    25 A. I heard later that some HVO soldiers had been

  54. 1 killed in Zenica, but I really do not recollect that.

    2 I didn't see it, and nobody told me that Zivko Totic

    3 had been killed, and I don't know the man in person. I

    4 never met him. I never saw him.

    5 Q. All right, sir. Now, in connection with the

    6 testimony that you gave regarding being driven back and

    7 forth between the Vitez health centre and your house

    8 after April the 19th, isn't it true that Dr. Bruno

    9 Buzuk, the health minister for the HVO, actually told

    10 you that that was occurring because of the danger of

    11 Muslim snipers shooting people in Vitez after April the

    12 19th?

    13 A. No, I was told by the driver who drove me --

    14 I said that his name was Dragan Petrovic -- that he had

    15 received orders to drive me, but he didn't tell me

    16 anything about what you said.

    17 Q. Did you know that in 1993, five people were

    18 killed by sniper fire in Vitez and another 26 were

    19 wounded? Five Croats were killed and 26 Croats were

    20 wounded?

    21 A. I said that from the 19th until I was

    22 exchanged, I had no contact, and all I knew was what I

    23 had heard from stories, but I didn't have any official

    24 data. I had no contact with the official

    25 representatives of the BH army. I really didn't know

  55. 1 how many people were killed or wounded on either side.

    2 Q. Did you ever treat either Marko Prskalo or

    3 Zoran Pilicic for gunshot wounds inflicted by snipers

    4 in the middle of April, 1993?

    5 A. Let me tell you, I said that there were many

    6 people wounded, especially after the 19th. I don't

    7 remember by name each of the wounded people who came

    8 for treatment. We had a registry where we entered the

    9 names and the diagnoses, the treatment we gave to each

    10 wounded person, whether he stayed on there or was sent

    11 to hospital, but I do not remember the names of all the

    12 individuals. I remember Ante Omazic, who was wounded

    13 in the stomach. I knew him well. We went to

    14 elementary school together. Whether it was from a

    15 sniper, I don't know. I remember him, though.

    16 Q. You don't remember treating either of the two

    17 gentlemen that I mentioned to you: Mr. Prskalo or

    18 Mr. Pililic?

    19 A. It's possible that I may have treated them. I

    20 don't know. I told you I do not remember the names.

    21 Q. The last series of questions on this

    22 particular subject, the people that you treated from

    23 April the 19th to May the 19th, 1993, you treated over

    24 100 HVO soldiers who had been wounded and suffering

    25 from various types of injuries ranging from grave to

  56. 1 light, and most inflicted by gunshot; is that not

    2 correct?

    3 A. I don't know the exact number, but they were

    4 wounds from firearms.

    5 Q. You would agree with me that you estimated

    6 that the number of people you treated on April the 19th

    7 alone was over 100 HVO troops suffering from various

    8 kinds of gunshot and explosion-related wounds; isn't

    9 that right, sir?

    10 A. The injuries were mostly from firearms,

    11 perhaps shrapnel. But in any event, from firearms.

    12 Q. The point I'm making is there were more than

    13 100 on that day alone?

    14 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness has said he

    15 doesn't know the exact number.

    16 MR. SAYERS: All right.

    17 Q. Do you remember being asked that precise

    18 question in the Blaskic case on August the 21st, 1997,

    19 sir?

    20 For my friend across the hall, it's at page

    21 1783. The question was, "Can you estimate, were there

    22 more than 100?" Answer, "I think there were."

    23 Did you say that two years ago?

    24 A. Possibly. I said that there were a large

    25 number of them, that I worked very hard, I worked all

  57. 1 day, that I asked Dr. Buzuk to bring physicians who

    2 were capable, like Dr. Drago Moris, who was a surgeon,

    3 Dr. Patkovic, because there were indeed many. I repeat

    4 again, there may have been more than 100.

    5 Q. Right. But you didn't treat any TO troops or

    6 troops from the ABiH. These were all, every single one

    7 of them, HVO troops; right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. One final question, sir. Did I understand

    10 you to say, in your direct examination, that you had

    11 four hand grenades in your house on the evening of

    12 April the 15th, 1993; "Yes" or "No"?

    13 A. I wasn't aware of them. I said that my wife

    14 told me later on.

    15 Q. You had four hand grenades in your house on

    16 the evening before the fighting broke out; is that

    17 correct?

    18 A. It is correct, but I was not aware of them.

    19 My neighbour from upstairs brought them and left them

    20 on the balcony. That's what my wife told me. Then my

    21 wife handed them in to Stipo Krizanac. I really didn't

    22 know about them, nor did I ever have any weapons.

    23 MR. SAYERS: Thank you. No further

    24 questions.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, just before you

  58. 1 finish, the witness has said that Mr. Kordic was

    2 introduced to him as the first Croat of Central Bosnia,

    3 a colonel and the deputy president of the HZ-HB. Is it

    4 accepted that Mr. Kordic was introduced in those

    5 terms?

    6 MR. SAYERS: I really don't know, Your

    7 Honour, because I don't know what occasion the doctor

    8 was talking about. But I would be happy to cover that,

    9 if the Court wants.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, is that right, that the

    11 accused Mr. Kordic was introduced in those terms?

    12 A. I said that he was introduced on the local

    13 public media, on television and the radio.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. That's

    15 the answer. Now then, is that in dispute, that he was

    16 introduced in that way?

    17 MR. SAYERS: Well, I really don't know the

    18 answer to that question, Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask Mr. Kordic then

    20 if it's disputed?

    21 MR. SAYERS: Well, I think that Mr. Kordic

    22 was introduced as a member of the HVO and he was

    23 introduced as a colonel, although he didn't wear any

    24 rank insignia, Your Honour.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. Any

  59. 1 re-examination, please?

    2 MR. NICE: Very little re-examination. But I

    3 have just a slight confusion as to the very last

    4 question that Mr. Sayers asked, the question about the

    5 hand grenades and, indeed, the questions of impeachment

    6 generally, because it's almost as if they are

    7 impregnated with another proposition, and the

    8 proposition isn't being advanced to the witness. I

    9 don't know what, if any, significance there is in them,

    10 and I can't deal with it.

    11 So far as re-examination is concerned, before

    12 I come to that, my attitude on Defence exhibits, as

    13 explained to Mr. Sayers, is this, so that the Trial

    14 Chamber understand: Obviously, I can't accept,

    15 certainly not at short notice, the prevalence of

    16 exhibits introduced in the defence of other cases.

    17 Equally, I can accept the prevalence of exhibits that

    18 come from our side. Of course I can. I simply ask if

    19 documents are put in, they are flagged up as to whether

    20 they are Defence exhibits in another case or where they

    21 come from. That's all.

    22 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

    23 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, going back to questions you

    24 were asked on behalf of the defendant Cerkez, and deal

    25 with them as briefly as you can, before the war, his

  60. 1 responsibilities in the factory, what were they, what

    2 did they include?

    3 A. As far as I know, Mr. Cerkez worked in the

    4 department for self-protection and information in the

    5 work organisation SPS in Vitez. I think that he was in

    6 charge of materiel and technical resources in that work

    7 organisation.

    8 Q. Were there any, to your knowledge, weapons in

    9 that organisation?

    10 A. Mr. Cerkez was, in fact, in charge of the

    11 military supplies. In the work organisation, there was

    12 an entire service providing security for the plants,

    13 and these mainly contained military materiel; rifles,

    14 equipment, medical supplies for the army.

    15 Q. That's fine. You were asked about the HVO in

    16 Vitez having both military and civil authority. Was

    17 there any split in the chains of command or authority

    18 as between military and civil functions, to your

    19 knowledge, or not?

    20 A. I don't know what the chain of command and

    21 control was in the HVO. I learned that there was the

    22 staff of the HVO and the government of the HVO of

    23 Vitez, and our interpretation was that there was the

    24 civil part, the political part, that that was the

    25 government, and that the staff was the military part.

  61. 1 I'm not sure of this, whether that is so.

    2 Q. Thank you. Where did Mr. Cerkez fit in, as

    3 you understood it?

    4 A. Mr. Cerkez came as the commander of the HVO

    5 staff in Vitez. He would occasionally attend meetings

    6 of the crisis staff, as necessary. And Marijan

    7 Skopljak also came, Hakija Cengic, and later Sefkija

    8 Djidic, when there were any disagreements between the

    9 HVO and the TO, which later became the BH army, at the

    10 local level.

    11 Q. Who had authority to speak for the HVO

    12 military side at those meetings?

    13 A. Mostly, it was Mario Cerkez who spoke, and

    14 Marijan Skopljak. For a while, he was the Defence

    15 minister, Stipo Krizanac, but later on, Marijan

    16 Skopljak.

    17 Q. And of Cerkez and Skopljak, who was senior?

    18 A. I really wouldn't know. I'm not conversant

    19 with that hierarchy.

    20 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the way

    21 people were introduced, for example, on television.

    22 The question related to Kraljevic, but you've also

    23 spoken of Kordic. Was Mr. Cerkez ever the subject of

    24 television information, and if so, how was he

    25 announced?

  62. 1 A. No, I never listened to that. He may have

    2 been, probably, but I never heard Mario Cerkez on

    3 television.

    4 MR. NICE: The next topic is something that I

    5 may be able to deal with very briefly. Mr. Sayers

    6 suggests that the Tribunal has a collection of this

    7 witness's witness statements. I wasn't sure if that

    8 was the case or not. If you have them, I can deal with

    9 it very briefly.

    10 JUDGE MAY: The answer is that the legal

    11 officer has a collection. We don't, individually, have

    12 a collection.

    13 MR. NICE: Very well. I deal with this topic

    14 very briefly, and if my friends opposite want me to

    15 deal with it in more detail, they must say so.

    16 Q. Of your four statements, the first in 1995,

    17 do you recall that that was -- I'm going to lead on

    18 this -- that that was something that has never been

    19 signed?

    20 A. Yes, because I wasn't happy about the

    21 translation.

    22 Q. Thank you. The remaining three statements,

    23 each of which has been signed, were they taken in

    24 English or in your own language?

    25 A. Questions were asked of me in English, and I

  63. 1 had an interpreter. I really was not satisfied with

    2 the manner, and on one occasion I asked them to find

    3 another interpreter here in the Tribunal from

    4 Mr. McNowell from the Prosecutor's office.

    5 Q. When did you first have a chance to see the

    6 translations from English into your own language of

    7 these statements, or any of them, if you can remember?

    8 A. It was usually a day or two after I had given

    9 a statement.

    10 Q. In relation to one topic that you were asked

    11 about by Mr. Kovacic, you were asked about the

    12 conversation in the car with Kraljevic, in which you

    13 told the Court that he mentioned Cerkez, along with

    14 Skopljak and Santic, and you were asked about the fact

    15 that you had not mentioned that, I think, in a later

    16 statement or testimony.

    17 Is it the case, and again I'm going to lead

    18 this, that on page 12 of your first signed statement,

    19 the 13th and 16th of July of 1995, that you mentioned

    20 that Cerkez, along with Valenta, Skopljak, and Santic,

    21 were spoken of by Kraljevic?

    22 A. I mentioned -- first of all, I said that the

    23 most persistent in all this were Anto Valenta and Pero

    24 Skopljak.

    25 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, I'm going to cut you again

  64. 1 short. The question is susceptible to a "Yes"/"No"

    2 answer. Is it right that in that statement, the first

    3 signed statement, you mentioned Cerkez, along with the

    4 other three? Just "Yes" or "No."

    5 A. I believe I did, yes.

    6 Q. You were shown yesterday -- no. Staying with

    7 that topic, you have been asked a number of questions

    8 about what you said of Kraljevic. An extract was

    9 provided of part of your testimony in Blaskic.

    10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to fill

    11 in the blanks, although it may be that it's sometimes a

    12 slightly unfortunate course to extract passages.

    13 Q. Is it the case that in addition to whatever

    14 you saw of Kraljevic, you also had information about

    15 use of drugs, maybe in the form of gossip but from

    16 others, not necessarily in relation to him but in

    17 relation to troops generally?

    18 A. Well, yes, there was talk about that in

    19 Vitez, that HOS formations were distributing drugs.

    20 Q. Thank you.

    21 A. But this is purely gossip. I did not see

    22 it. I do not know if that was true.

    23 Q. You gave an account to the Tribunal, in

    24 answer to questions from me, of your judgement of the

    25 lucidity, the clarity, of what Kraljevic was saying

  65. 1 when he spoke of Valenta, Skopljak, Santic, and

    2 Cerkez. You gave that evidence last week, I think.

    3 In light of what you've been asked by the

    4 Defence, do you want to change that, or is your

    5 evidence unchanged on that topic?

    6 A. During our conversation in the car, he spoke

    7 normally.

    8 Q. Thank you. Is there anything you want to

    9 change from what you first told the Chamber last week?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Well, then tell us what it is.

    12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

    14 MR. KOVACIC: I would kindly ask you to try

    15 to correct. It is either an error or it was

    16 misleading. I think it's better to do it now than on

    17 the end of the testimony.

    18 The Prosecutor was asking about the first

    19 statement of the witness and then was referring to the

    20 date 16 May, 1995. That is not correct. We had been

    21 talking, when I asked the witness on that, the first

    22 statement is on the 1st March '95, and in that one, he

    23 never mentioned Cerkez. It would be better to clear it

    24 now.

    25 MR. NICE: I think on every occasion, I said

  66. 1 it was the first signed statement, and I've

    2 distinguished between the unsigned statement and the

    3 signed one.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    5 MR. NICE:

    6 Q. What, if any, changes do you want to make in

    7 the account that you gave to the Chamber last week as

    8 to the clarity of speech of Kraljevic in the car?

    9 A. He spoke normally while we talked, and what

    10 do I know? He wasn't showing any signs of aggression.

    11 It was just a chat, a conversation between two

    12 persons. He was asking me about my opinion, and I

    13 advised him to leave Vitez. I mean --

    14 Q. Thank you. You've been asked about the HOS

    15 and the Vitezovi, into which it changed. Just remind

    16 us, please, what sort of period you're dealing with,

    17 the change from HOS to Vitezovi.

    18 A. I think it was the latter half of '92.

    19 Q. Was Darko Kraljevic in charge of the Vitezovi

    20 from then and until the time of your escape, or your

    21 exchange? I beg your pardon.

    22 A. I stated that on the local television, he was

    23 introduced as colonel and as the commander of the

    24 special unit, Vitezovi, HVO Vitezovi, special HVO

    25 formation called Vitezovi, with the rank of colonel.

  67. 1 Q. Was anything said to you or did anybody else

    2 say to you about the lines of command of the Vitezovi

    3 and how it connected or otherwise with other parts of

    4 the HVO in Vitez or elsewhere?

    5 A. No, no.

    6 Q. And finally on the subject of Kraljevic, who

    7 is dead, is he commemorated in Vitez, to your

    8 knowledge?

    9 A. I really don't know. I've passed through by

    10 car. I know there is a monument in Vitez to him.

    11 There was flowers and wreaths there. But as I don't

    12 live and don't work in Vitez and I don't really go to

    13 Vitez at all, I just don't know. I don't have any

    14 latest information about that.

    15 Q. Thank you. There was a video shown yesterday

    16 with an untranslated transcript. It showed you in

    17 hospital in April. It's hard for you to remember this,

    18 but was there anything on that soundtrack that needed

    19 translating or that you want to draw to our attention?

    20 I have to ask it this way because we haven't had any

    21 other opportunity of dealing with it.

    22 A. Let me tell you, I was brought there to work,

    23 escorted by military police, and I truly worked there

    24 and I did all that was within my power.

    25 Q. The question was, was there anything said on

  68. 1 the soundtrack that you think may assist us?

    2 A. In this -- on this soundtrack, I stated that

    3 it had been said that I had been killed, and I said,

    4 "Well, don't you see that I'm working here?" I

    5 introduced other doctors who had been brought to work

    6 here, and they were both Muslims and Croats, and there

    7 was a lady doctor, Serb, and also a male Serb doctor.

    8 I was simply trying to allay the tension, to show that

    9 the picture was not as black as it was usually reported

    10 to be.

    11 Q. Thank you. You spoke of a television

    12 interview where you were invited to say things but you

    13 declined, as I've understood it. What were you being

    14 invited at one stage to say that you were not prepared

    15 to say?

    16 A. I was asked to invite Muslims from Stari

    17 Vitez to lay down their weapons, and that was what I

    18 declined to say.

    19 Q. Thank you. This morning, you were shown one

    20 document only that I want you to look at, and again

    21 very briefly. It's D20/2, and it's my mistake probably

    22 for not understanding something.

    23 On the top -- for public display, this would

    24 actually require the original to be shown on the ELMO,

    25 if at all, but on the top we see two figures number 1.

  69. 1 We've got a translation of the top one of those.

    2 First of all, had you seen this document, or

    3 any part of it, before you were shown it this morning?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. The writing, apart from the signature at the

    6 foot, do you recognise it at all?

    7 A. No. This is the first time I see this

    8 document. I mean I saw it today.

    9 Q. Are you able to help -- probably the answer

    10 is self-evident, but I must ask it. Are you able to

    11 help, one way or another, with why the top entry on the

    12 page has been written above by a further top entry

    13 given number 1? Can you offer any explanation for

    14 that?

    15 A. I don't know. Mensus Aganovic, Rasim's son,

    16 I do not know that man at all. It says here that he

    17 went home, and somebody's signature, but I simply

    18 cannot identify it.

    19 Q. Thank you very much. You were asked

    20 questions about your motivation for leaving Vitez.

    21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I notice that no

    22 alternative explanation was ventured.

    23 Q. You were asked about having the courage to

    24 leave Vitez or how you had the courage to leave Vitez.

    25 Did you want to leave your family at that time?

  70. 1 JUDGE MAY: I think really the time may be

    2 coming to bring this to a conclusion.

    3 MR. NICE: Very well. I've got one other

    4 question or two other questions of substance to deal

    5 with, but I've been very brief, as Your Honour will

    6 note.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, are you all right? Would

    8 you like a break? Are there --

    9 MR. NICE: They are questions of importance.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Could you, Doctor, deal with one

    11 question, and then we'll release you, please?

    12 MR. NICE: There are two or three questions,

    13 and they relate to the role of --

    14 A. Yes.

    15 MR. NICE: -- Dr. Mujezinovic in relation to

    16 the army and his knowledge.

    17 Q. First, you've been asked about troops from

    18 Santici, Ahmici, and Pirici fighting on the front

    19 lines, but just help us with this. In the middle of

    20 April of 1993, were there any BiH units stationed at or

    21 in any of those villages?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. You've been asked about your knowledge of the

    24 deployment of forces. Were those villages defended in

    25 any way at that time?

  71. 1 A. On the 16th of April, no.

    2 Q. And in your role, you had knowledge of the

    3 deployment of troops and of the movement of soldiers.

    4 Did you have any part of direction or control over the

    5 soldiers yourself, any direct control over the movement

    6 of BiH soldiers?

    7 A. I had to know where the army was, how many

    8 soldiers there were, how many of them were on the

    9 ground. I had to be aware of the orders they received

    10 from the superior command. The war presidency had to

    11 know this, this kind of thing, that is, have all the

    12 information related to armed forces.

    13 Q. Did you have any, yourself, ability directly

    14 to control the soldiers?

    15 A. Through commanders who were responsible for

    16 individual units, and it was through them that we

    17 exercised our influence, that is, those commanders,

    18 upon receiving orders from us, first had to obey their

    19 superiors or, rather, seek approval for what we were

    20 asking them to do. In other words, we did have some

    21 influence as regards the appointment and requests of

    22 commanders of individual formations.

    23 Q. Thank you very much.

    24 MR. NICE: That concludes all I want to ask

    25 of this witness, with apologies for having dealt with

  72. 1 matters so briskly, maybe, that I lacked some

    2 sensitivity at the end.

    3 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Mujezinovic, thank you for

    4 coming to the Tribunal for giving evidence, and thank

    5 you for giving evidence. You are now released.

    6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

    7 (The witness withdrew)

    8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski?

    9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    10 if I may, I should like to say two sentences only.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Provided they are relevant, yes.

    12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I believe

    13 they are. First, I was really surprised when the

    14 Prosecutor commented on some questions asked by the

    15 Defence. I find that unnecessary, because I believe

    16 that the Court will evaluate what we did. But that was

    17 only by the way.

    18 The important thing which I wish to clarify

    19 here is the following: What my colleague Steve Sayers

    20 said, he agreed with the Prosecution about the document

    21 that we tendered; the Prosecutor did not respond to

    22 that, which means that he agreed to that. However, if

    23 I understand him properly, now, in the end, the

    24 Prosecutor expressed a certain degree of reservation as

    25 regards those documents.

  73. 1 Now the question arises: Were these

    2 documents admitted on the basis of the consent of the

    3 two parties or not? That is the only point that I wish

    4 clarified. Thank you.

    5 JUDGE MAY: I suggest that be a matter for

    6 consultation between the parties. If the Prosecution

    7 have got submissions about the documents, then they

    8 could make them in due course. I say that because

    9 apparently there was no notice given that these

    10 documents were about to be adduced. And if that is

    11 going to happen, it places on the party, the other

    12 party, a very real difficulty. And in those

    13 circumstances, I would allow the Prosecution time to

    14 make submissions on the documents.

    15 MR. NICE: I'm happy to do that. I'm equally

    16 happy to make my position plain, as I made it plain to

    17 Mr. Sayers at the break. In relation to all the

    18 documents that have been put in by the Defence, I have

    19 raised, I think, no objection to any document.

    20 Objections take time, and it is far better that if they

    21 want you to see a document, you should see it, and we

    22 can work out its value later. I simply made the point,

    23 but of course, if a document comes from the Defence in

    24 another trial, I'm in no position to concede its

    25 genuineness, either on short notice or necessarily at

  74. 1 any stage. We simply need to know, for later

    2 appraisal, where documents come from -- and I asked

    3 Mr. Sayers, and as I understood it, he was happy about

    4 this -- that Defence exhibits should simply be flagged

    5 as Defence exhibits.

    6 Before the next witness comes, may we go into

    7 closed session?

    8 JUDGE MAY: Before we do, there is something

    9 I want to say. We would have all seen the distress of

    10 that last witness. You, Mr. Nice, apologised. In my

    11 judgement, of course, you were right to do so. There

    12 was no need to do so. It was not the briskness of the

    13 questioning which I suspect caused the distress; it was

    14 the length that the witness had been giving evidence.

    15 The Bench is most concerned about this, that

    16 a witness was brought here last week; he gives evidence

    17 -- this is the third or fourth time, it doesn't matter

    18 -- in the Tribunal, and in this case, he's kept here

    19 for two and a half days.

    20 We must speed up the way in which the

    21 evidence is given, and -- well, it may be premature,

    22 but for the next witness, we are going to suggest

    23 targets in order that we get through this witness and

    24 the next one by the end of the week.

    25 MR. NICE: Excellent. I'm grateful to Your

  75. 1 Honour for mentioning that. May I -- and I don't want

    2 to rub salt into what may be a small wound at the

    3 moment on the opposite side, but of course the topic

    4 that caused distress was the topic about which

    5 questions had been asked but not focused, and I simply

    6 needed to know where I stood, but there it is.

    7 I think Mr. Kovacic wants to raise something,

    8 but if we may go into closed session for the next

    9 witness -- not for the next witness; before --

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    11 MR. NICE: -- he comes to give evidence.

    12 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours, I

    13 wanted to say something else that we unwittingly opened

    14 here. I think we are faced now with a problem that we

    15 may have to face again, so I'm trying to be

    16 constructive.

    17 During his examination of Mr. Mujezinovic,

    18 Mr. Nice disqualified the first statement that the

    19 witness gave, saying that it was not signed. Now, if

    20 we begin to use statements that were adduced as part of

    21 supporting material because allegedly they had not been

    22 signed, then the question arises as to the

    23 justification of the confirmation of the indictments,

    24 because these statements are found in the supporting

    25 material, and the Tribunal confirmed the indictments on

  76. 1 the basis of that material, and now, when this is taken

    2 out as an exhibit and shown to the witness, then we say

    3 "Well, it's no go, because it's not been signed."

    4 I'm afraid it might have some very

    5 undesirable consequences, so that I'm suggesting that

    6 we resolve this matter in principle. Evidently these

    7 statements that were given by witnesses to

    8 investigators are not evidence, and I don't really

    9 think that it really matters very much whether it was

    10 signed or not. It was a statement made by a witness,

    11 and we simply are trying to clarify the validity of

    12 that statement, juxtaposing it to what the statement

    13 (sic) testified here, giving evidence.

    14 If that is the approach, that may be all

    15 right, but if we are changing this approach, then we

    16 really have a problem, because evidently the material

    17 adduced was not legally valid, and this is not the only

    18 such case; this is only one of the examples.

    19 Thank you.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, the only

    21 significance of the questioning about whether the

    22 statement was signed was this, that questions were put

    23 to the witness about something he said in the

    24 statement, and therefore his credit was being in that

    25 way impeached or attacked. If that is done, and the

  77. 1 witness said that he complained about the translation,

    2 it is relevant as to whether the statement was signed

    3 or not.

    4 Apart from that, there is no significance in

    5 the questioning. So if there is a question about a

    6 statement, and the witness gives answers about it, it

    7 is relevant to know -- or it may be relevant -- to know

    8 whether the statement has been signed or not. It's not

    9 evidence; it's merely a question of whether his credit

    10 could be impeached because of what's in the statement.

    11 MR. NICE: And to settle Mr. Kovacic's

    12 concern -- I'm so sorry.

    13 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,

    14 I absolutely agree. That is what I had in mind, and I

    15 wouldn't like us to debate this example, but it is a

    16 fact that we do have unsigned statements, and bona

    17 fide, at the cross, I asked the witness whether he had

    18 said what he said. I didn't enter into a debate as to

    19 whether there was a signature or not. And today the

    20 Prosecutor explained by the lack of signature the fact

    21 that we were engaging in this impeachment procedure.

    22 So we no longer have equal arms, because the

    23 explanation is precisely what you have given. We are

    24 treating it in the way we are. We can't just say,

    25 "This is not signed, so it's not in debate any more,"

  78. 1 because the indictment is based on it. So in that

    2 case, let us eliminate all the statements that have no

    3 signature.

    4 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    5 JUDGE MAY: On this topic, we want to make it

    6 plain that the question whether a statement is signed

    7 or not is something that we will be considering when we

    8 look at the evidence and decide what weight to put upon

    9 the particular point. That, in my judgement, is the

    10 only significance of it at the moment.

    11 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, now, closed session -- yes,

    13 Mr. Stein. What do you want?

    14 MR. STEIN: I'll be succinct. The next

    15 witness who is proffered, whose statements you may have

    16 read -- and this foreshadows this afternoon -- is going

    17 to testify far and wide in range about towns not named

    18 in the indictments, about issues not in the indictment,

    19 and to the extent that even we have from the Prosecutor

    20 this morning a summary of his testimony, or a road map

    21 through his testimony, of some 17 pages, most of it

    22 again tracks what we've seen in the discovery, and the

    23 lion's share of it simply will not advance the cause.

    24 To this regard, I suggest that the Tribunal

    25 limit the testimony to the length -- I suggest the

  79. 1 Tribunal limit the testimony to what this witness has

    2 to offer about these two defendants.

    3 JUDGE MAY: Well, he is entitled to deal --

    4 are you saying he is not entitled to deal with any

    5 area? Kresevo, for instance?

    6 MR. SAYERS: Kresevo is not named in the

    7 indictment, it's not a town at issue, nor are the other

    8 towns that are mentioned in his summaries. They are

    9 not specific named towns set out in the indictment.

    10 MR. NICE: Maybe go into closed session

    11 first, because the whole question of publicity of this

    12 witness has to be dealt with first. As that is being

    13 organised, may I, before I overlook the point, hark

    14 back for one sentence to console Mr. Kovacic over his

    15 concern over the unsigned statement. The unsigned

    16 statement was not submitted at either the time of the

    17 confirmation of the original or the amended indictment,

    18 and that's shown up on the witness confidential list.

    19 (Closed session)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)




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    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)



    16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    17 4.34 p.m., to be reconvened on

    18 Thursday, the 13th day of May, 1999,

    19 at 9.45 a.m.