1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
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5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (Open session)
14 JUDGE MAY: This is Mr. Dzidic?
15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Kadir
16 Dzidic.
17 (The witness entered court)
18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
20 truth.
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Take a seat.
22 Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.
23 WITNESS: KADIR DJIDIC
24 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:
25 [Witness answers through interpreter]
1 Q. Are you Mr. Kadir Dzidic, born in 1949?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. During the conflict in Vitez, you lived in
4 Vitez, where you were a physics teacher; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. During your teaching career, one of your
8 pupils was the accused Dario Kordic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell the Court, what was your
11 opinion of Dario Kordic as a pupil?
12 A. Yes. He was a pupil who stood out as very
13 industrious, and he applied himself very well to the
14 problems of physics, and he was one of my favourite
15 students.
16 Q. Could you tell us if, at the time, Dario
17 Kordic behaved as a person with a rather
18 individualistic character, or did he like to take part
19 in various group activities organised at the time?
20 MR. STEIN: I object. This is clearly
21 leading; probably not particularly relevant.
22 JUDGE MAY: I agree.
23 Let's go on, shall we?
24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
25 Q. Could you tell us anything else about the
1 behaviour of Dario Kordic, who was your pupil?
2 A. As I said, he was a good student, and
3 disciplined. However, physically, he was not very
4 strong, in order to match the other children at the
5 time, so that sometimes he was slightly pushed aside by
6 those who were more physical and more engaged in
7 physical activities than he was.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dzidic, you still teach
9 physics in a school in Zenica, where you live with your
10 family at the moment?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Dzidic, is it true that you were a member
13 of the SDA and that you were the president of its local
14 section in Vitez?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. You were a member of the coordinating
17 committee for the protection of Muslim interests in
18 Vitez; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Lastly, you were a member of the war
21 presidency in Vitez; is that correct?
22 A. I was a co-opted member of the war presidency
23 upon my release from the prison in Zenica.
24 Q. But you are no longer a member of the SDA,
25 Mr. Dzidic, are you?
1 A. I no longer engage in political activities.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzidic, for this clarification
3 regarding your work. We shall now move on to those
4 matters of which you have been called to give your
5 testimony here.
6 On 16th April, 1993, around half past 5.00,
7 you were in your flat in Vitez, and you were awakened
8 by an explosion; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And from your flat, could you see that some
11 parts of Vitez were under fire or under shelling?
12 A. I saw through the bathroom window that houses
13 in Old Vitez were on fire in the area inhabited
14 exclusively by Muslims. I saw the flash of artillery
15 pieces from Krcevine and Jardol, from where these
16 shells were fired. I saw that the entrances to my
17 building and other buildings had been blocked by people
18 who were my neighbours, some of them in uniforms, and
19 they were all Croats.
20 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Dzidic. You are saying
21 that you saw houses ablaze; could you also tell us
22 which were the villages in which, as you saw it, houses
23 were ablaze?
24 A. That was Old Vitez, Stari Vitez, looking from
25 one vantage point. And then, from my own balcony and
1 my neighbour's balcony, I also saw Ahmici on fire.
2 Those were the areas which were -- from where plumes of
3 smoke were rising and where the fires were burning.
4 Q. You tell us that you saw and heard shooting,
5 artillery fire, which came from villages; that is,
6 specifically, the village of Jardol. Was it a Muslim
7 or a Croat village?
8 A. That was a predominantly Croatian village,
9 but there may be a couple of Muslim houses there, too.
10 Q. In your view, Mr. Dzidic, the shelling and
11 this shooting that you saw in the morning of the 16th
12 of April, did it come from the HVO, or from the BH
13 army?
14 A. From the side of the HVO.
15 Q. You are in no doubt in this regard?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I will show you now a document, Mr. Dzidic,
18 which is an aerial view of the town of Vitez. This
19 document was already used, Z2126 (sic). Could we
20 please have this exhibit shown to the witness.
21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: There is a mistake; it is
22 Z2186, not 2126; 2186.
23 Will you please show this document to the
24 witness.
25 Q. Mr. Dzidic, can you find your way about that
1 map?
2 A. I'm trying.
3 Q. Could you please show us where your building
4 was? If, that is, you can find it.
5 A. Just a moment, please.
6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, why don't you
7 help the witness with the orientation? Point out some
8 of the buildings.
9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Could the
10 witness locate the Workers' University building? We
11 spoke about it, for instance.
12 JUDGE MAY: Tell him -- it's difficult for a
13 witness to locate things on an aerial photograph. Tell
14 him where you say it is.
15 A. I think I can find it.
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, will you please
17 tell us where this building is?
18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) You mean
19 the building in which the witness lived? Well, that is
20 precisely what my question was to the witness,
21 Mr. President.
22 JUDGE MAY: No, I want to you explain to us,
23 to start with, where we are supposed to be. The
24 witness doesn't know; we don't know. Now, I've got
25 2186. What is building "A," please?
1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) I'm really
2 sorry. I was to show the document to the witness. You
3 can retrieve this from me. I'm sorry about this
4 misunderstanding.
5 "A" is Hotel Vitez on this plan. "B" is the
6 cinema building, and we shall come to it later. "C" is
7 the post office building, and "D" is the building which
8 housed the chess club.
9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Dzidic, do you see where
10 those buildings are?
11 A. This copy is a bit clearer. My apologies,
12 because my eyesight is not that good.
13 JUDGE MAY: There's no need for you to
14 apologise.
15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) We can
16 move on, if the witness cannot give us any information
17 regarding this document today.
18 Q. Mr. Dzidic, your flat was on what floor in
19 that building?
20 A. My apartment was on the fourth floor of the
21 building which is marked with the letter "D."
22 Q. So your building was in the neighbourhood of
23 the chess club, is it?
24 A. Across from the chess club.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dzidic. So we were
1 able to locate your building after all.
2 In the morning of the 16th of April, 1993,
3 did you hear -- you told us that there was an attack,
4 and you told us that it was an HVO attack; did you
5 expect that?
6 A. No, I did not expect it in any way.
7 Q. But you told us a little while ago that you
8 could see that the soldiers were blocking the entrance
9 into buildings; you also saw soldiers in the street,
10 and at that moment, you decided to go to a neighbour's
11 flat in your building; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I went over to the apartment of my
13 Croatian neighbour. She was a woman with whom I had
14 excellent neighbourly relations. I also took my wife
15 and children with me.
16 Q. You decided to leave your flat because you
17 felt threatened, you felt there was a danger at the
18 moment?
19 A. Yes, that was precisely the reason.
20 Q. What were you afraid of?
21 A. I was afraid of everything that I was
22 seeing. I was afraid that some of the soldiers or
23 someone else would enter my apartment, that something
24 ugly would happen, because something bad could have
25 happened to both me or my wife or my children. This is
1 why I went over to my neighbour. I felt more secure
2 there.
3 Q. Thank you. And you were, therefore, in your
4 neighbour's flat, and you saw three HVO soldiers
5 arrive; they were wearing camouflage uniforms, and they
6 knocked on the door of your neighbour's flat. Is that
7 correct?
8 A. The soldiers first knocked on my door, which
9 was across the hallway, a couple of metres away, so I
10 could hear the knocking. It was very loud. Then my
11 neighbour stepped out of her apartment and said that we
12 were not there, that we had gone to Travnik. And then
13 they said that it was not right, that they knew very
14 well that I was in the building.
15 Q. At that moment, you, yourself, came out of
16 your neighbour's flat; is that so?
17 A. Yes. I saw that it was an awkward
18 situation. I recognised the men. I invited them into
19 my neighbour's apartment to sit down, have coffee, and
20 talk. They accepted the invitation, came in, sat
21 down. Among them were two men whom I knew by name, and
22 the third one I knew by sight, but I cannot recall his
23 name, even to date. The two whom I knew were Josip
24 Franjic, an ex-student of mine, and Igor Vujica, a
25 neighbour who lived maybe one or two kilometres away
1 from my apartment, whom I had known from some young men
2 who are my relations, and he was associated with them.
3 Q. In addition to these two soldiers whose name
4 you gave us, there was a third person whose name you
5 also mentioned, or rather a part of his name, you gave
6 us?
7 A. Other persons? No, these three soldiers came
8 in. My neighbour and her daughter were present, as
9 well as my family.
10 Q. Do you remember the conduct of the three
11 soldiers? Did they ask for something in particular?
12 A. The third soldier was very nervous. He was
13 playing with his pistol all the time, and he kept
14 asking me where was Fuad Kaknjo, and saying something
15 to the effect that he would kill him as a dog. I was
16 unable to tell him, because I didn't know.
17 After a while, he also calmed down. We all
18 had coffee. Then they left. It was just an informal
19 conversation that we had, and I believe that in the
20 end, we arrived at understanding each other.
21 Q. And who was Fuad Kaknjo?
22 A. At that time, Fuad Kaknjo, and even before
23 the war, he was president of the executive board of the
24 municipality. He was legally elected, and he was very
25 prominent, and he held prominent positions for a period
1 of time.
2 Q. Did he live in the same neighbourhood as you?
3 A. We lived in the same building. He was in the
4 next segment of the building, the next entrance.
5 Q. Thank you. So do you remember still the name
6 of the third soldier? You said there were three
7 soldiers. Do you know the name of the third soldier
8 who was tense and who was asking all those questions
9 about Kaknjo?
10 A. No, I cannot, and I never made it -- I
11 believe that his name was Livancic, but it is not clear
12 to me. I also remembered him as one of my ex-students,
13 but I still cannot recall his first or last names.
14 Q. Thank you. You mentioned three names, and
15 particularly the name Igor Vujica, and another name,
16 Josip Franjic. I should like to show you two
17 documents, Mr. Dzidic.
18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) These are
19 documents 2.610 and 2.711, so 2710 and 2711.
20 Would Mr. Usher please help me.
21 Q. Mr. Dzidic, you have these two documents
22 before you. The first document -- that is, 2710 -- it
23 is the 19th of May, 1994. It comes from the military
24 authority of Vitez, the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna,
25 and you see the name of Igor Vujica, former member of
1 the Vitezovi, who became a member of Vitez (sic) in
2 1993, on the 15th of December, 1993. Do you see this
3 document relative to Igor Vujica?
4 A. I have this document in front of me, and its
5 heading is "Request for Treatment of a Wounded Soldier
6 in the Republic of Croatia." The registration
7 number is 1779-09/4-09/94-2553.
8 Q. Right.
9 A. Yes, that is it.
10 Q. This document, does it relate to the soldier
11 Igor Vujica that you spoke a little while ago?
12 A. Yes, it says 25 March, 1972. I don't know
13 the extent of the injuries of Mr. Vujica and whether he
14 could have been recovered by then.
15 Q. No, no, no, I'm referring to the identity.
16 Is that the same person as the one that you spoke
17 about?
18 MR. STEIN: Judge, with respect, this is the
19 same kind of examination that we had with the last
20 witness, where this witness is being asked to look at
21 military documents and things of which he should not be
22 familiar and probably is not.
23 JUDGE MAY: He can identify the names on
24 here, but let's move on, because the witness can't say
25 anything more about these, I take it.
1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
2 Q. Do you know the name of the father of Igor
3 Vujica that you told us a little while before in your
4 testimony?
5 A. Yes, this father's name was Nikica, the son's
6 name was Igor, but I don't know about the date of
7 birth. It could be right.
8 Q. You are confirming that the name of the
9 father of soldier Igor Vujica that you spoke about is
10 Nikica?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The age of Igor Vujica, on the basis of the
13 date of birth indicated in this document, would it
14 correspond, would it tally with the age of Igor Vujica,
15 the soldier that you referred to?
16 A. Yes, it would. It would correspond.
17 Q. Thank you. Will you now look at the second
18 document shown here. This is a certificate issued on
19 the 20th of January, 1996, also by the military
20 authority of Vitez, which is issued to an individual
21 called Josip (Nike) Franjic, and it says that on the
22 16th of April, 1993, he was a member of the Vitez
23 Brigade. The particulars indicated here in this
24 document, would they correspond with the particulars of
25 the soldier Josip Franjic that you spoke about before?
1 A. Yes, they correspond, both the first, last
2 name, and father's name, and again, I cannot say
3 anything about the date of birth.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzidic. Shall we move on?
5 So you stayed in your building on the 16th of
6 April, and on the 17th of April, that is, the next day,
7 at around 4.00 in the afternoon, soldiers came to your
8 apartment to look for you?
9 A. Yes, they came.
10 Q. And you were taken?
11 A. It was Slaven Kraljevic and another soldier,
12 whose last name I later heard was Krizanac, but I
13 didn't know him then. They took me along. They took
14 me around the building to a cafe called 072, where
15 Darko Kraljevic was located.
16 When they brought me to him, he first said,
17 "Kadir, where is your brother?" My answer was,
18 "Darko, he is on duty, just as you are." Then he
19 asked additional questions, and I responded that if he
20 had anything against my brother or something with him,
21 that he should solve that with him and I was not going
22 to be a go-between.
23 Then he ordered this soldier, Slavko, to take
24 me in a Jeep to the cinema building, and immediately
25 after that we were taken there and I was taken to the
1 basement of the building.
2 Q. Could you be more exact? Could you tell us
3 who was your brother and what position did he hold?
4 A. My brother is Sefkija Djidic, who at the time
5 was commander of the staff of the Territorial Defence
6 in the Vitez municipality.
7 Q. You told us that you were taken to the
8 cinema. At least this is how it is in the French
9 transcript. Is it that you were taken to the cinema
10 building directly or were you first taken to the
11 basement of the building which housed the Workers'
12 University?
13 A. It is the same entrance. The cinema/theatre
14 and the Workers' University shared the same entrance,
15 so I was taken in and then down into the basement.
16 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) I will now
17 show you two photographs, Mr. Djidic. This document
18 was already produced, admitted, for a previous
19 witness. These documents are from Z2202, and these are
20 the photographs accompanying that document. Please,
21 usher, show this to the witness.
22 Q. Will you please look at all those documents
23 and tell us if they are showing the building that we
24 are talking about?
25 A. The first picture, yes.
1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Could the
2 witness be shown the second photograph, please?
3 A. Yes. This is also that picture.
4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
5 Q. The next one?
6 A. Yes, this is the building, but a view from
7 another side.
8 Q. Can one see the basement in which you were
9 detained?
10 A. You can see the window of the basement here
11 (indicating).
12 Q. Thank you. The next photograph, please. Do
13 you recognise this photograph?
14 A. This is the cinema/theatre which is located
15 in that building.
16 Q. The next photograph, please.
17 A. This is another view of the cinema/theatre
18 from a different vantage point.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djidic. And this photograph,
20 the last one?
21 A. It's the same building and another view from
22 another vantage point.
23 Q. And --
24 A. I think again a different vantage point.
25 Q. Thank you. So these photographs show the
1 building which you call the Workers' University.
2 Others say it's the Workers' House, the Workers'
3 Centre, and other people would call it the cinema?
4 A. Yes, this is the building, because the
5 cinema/theatre was also located or housed in this
6 Workers' University building.
7 Q. Thank you. So you told us that you were
8 taken to the basement or to the cellar of the cinema or
9 the Workers' University, and there you found other
10 persons who were already there?
11 A. Yes. There were a number of people there, my
12 Bosniak neighbours. They were all there in this
13 basement.
14 Q. Were the people, I mean people who were
15 already in the cellar, were they wearing uniforms?
16 A. Those who were prisoners did not wear
17 uniforms, but those who were guards did wear them.
18 Q. The detainees were the civilians; is that
19 what you are telling us?
20 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Were they only men?
22 A. These were men of different ages, from 17,
23 18, up to 65 and above.
24 Q. After the detention, were perhaps some new
25 detainees brought to the same place?
1 A. This process was ongoing, so the number of
2 people kept rising so that by the night-time, the room
3 could barely hold all the people who were there.
4 Q. Was there enough room for you in that place?
5 A. No. There was not even enough space to sit
6 down, let alone lie down, and it was also a space which
7 was very badly neglected. There was slag there. It
8 was part of a boiler room. It was where the Workers'
9 University was getting their heat from.
10 Q. Could you tell us something about the
11 conditions of detention in that place? How about food,
12 how about hygiene?
13 A. As I said, it was a very cramped space,
14 taking into account all the people who were brought
15 there. As far as food was concerned, nobody even
16 thought about it, but later on we started receiving
17 some food.
18 As far as the hygiene was concerned, it was
19 really substandard. It was also not allowed that we go
20 to the toilet when we needed, so that people had to go
21 to the toilet in a hallway.
22 Q. How would you define the conditions in the
23 place of your detention?
24 A. Because we had to use this adjacent little
25 room to go and relieve ourselves, the next day there
1 was already this stench coming through, and also there
2 was mud that was brought back into the room in which we
3 were staying, so there was a danger of some disease
4 spreading.
5 Q. You were detained with those other men in
6 this place for several days, weren't you?
7 A. Yes. We stayed there for several days, until
8 the room became too stuffy and too dirty, and then we
9 were able to move to the cinema hall itself, where the
10 sanitary conditions were better, so that the majority
11 of detainees were then transferred there, where we
12 could sit down and get some rest too.
13 Q. Mr. Djidic, I will now show you four
14 documents.
15 JUDGE MAY: Are you going on to another
16 topic, Mr. Lopez-Terres?
17 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Well, it
18 still concerns the detention conditions.
19 JUDGE MAY: Very quickly, as it's 1.00, and
20 then we will adjourn.
21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) These
22 documents are Z767, Z805, Z807, and Z807/1.
23 Q. Mr. Djidic, will you please have a look at
24 these four documents? They are, as you can see, the
25 documents signed by the commander for the HVO forces in
1 Central Bosnia, Colonel Tihomir Blaskic. The first one
2 is dated 21st April 1993. There are two documents on
3 the 24th of April, and the last one is on the 27th of
4 April, 1993. Tihomir Blaskic suggested these documents
5 to the units subordinated to him. The last one on the
6 27th of April is addressed specifically to the
7 commander of the Vitez Brigade.
8 Can you read these four documents,
9 Mr. Djidic?
10 A. Yes, I did have a look at these four
11 documents. They are fine. But at that time, they were
12 not of much use to us.
13 Q. I will ask you, Mr. Djidic, you say these are
14 documents, the orders and calls to obey the request
15 that order be obeyed. Could you tell us, since you
16 were also detained in Vitez during the time at which
17 these orders were issued, could you tell us if you
18 think that these orders, and again invitations to obey
19 orders and reminders of the Geneva Conventions, were
20 they complied with, were they obeyed, at the time when
21 you were detained?
22 MR. STEIN: With respect, I think that's a
23 conclusion only the Court should only draw. More
24 germane, the orders were dated 24 April, 23 April, and,
25 I think, 21 April. The confinement that we've know
1 about thus far is 19 April.
2 JUDGE MAY: As far as the dates are
3 concerned, there's no difficulty about that.
4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) But the
5 witness was detained between the 16th and for a time,
6 so at the time when these orders were issued, the
7 witness was still in detention.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll deal with this after
9 the adjournment. The witness can be asked about the
10 conditions which existed, but can we do it as briefly
11 as possible, because he won't be familiar with these.
12 When you go over the page in the statement,
13 we've had a lot of evidence now about the negotiations
14 involving Dr. Mujezinovic, so those paragraphs could be
15 taken very quickly down to 27.
16 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Very well,
17 Mr. President.
18 JUDGE MAY: When we get back, you could
19 briefly ask the witness about these documents and about
20 the conditions in the detention centre.
21 We'll adjourn now. We'll return five minutes
22 later, 25 to 3.00.
23 Mr. Djidic, would you remember, please,
24 during this adjournment and any others, don't speak to
25 anybody about your evidence, and that includes members
1 of the Prosecution. Don't speak about it until it's
2 over. Could you be back, please, at 25 to 3.00.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 2.40 p.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.
6 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation).
7 Q. Mr. Dzidic, before the break, you were shown
8 four documents signed by Colonel Blaskic. You were
9 able to look through those documents, which have to do
10 with the order addressed to brigade commanders
11 regarding the treatment of detainees. Could you tell
12 us whether, during the time you were detained in Vitez,
13 between the 17th of April and the beginning of the
14 month of May 1993, you personally noted a change in the
15 difficult detention conditions that you explained to us
16 this morning.
17 A. I didn't notice any particular change, and
18 having looked through these documents, I see that they
19 were issued with some delay, because the worst things
20 that happened in Vitez were in the first three or four
21 days. As regards the conditions in the prison, they
22 remain more or less the same as they were at the
23 beginning. The prisoners were frequently taken to dig
24 trenches. Sometimes a prisoner would not come back.
25 By way of an example, let me say that Almir
1 Gadjun, a young man in his 20s, was killed during the
2 labour he was taken to do. There were some other
3 cases, but now I'm referring to this particular young
4 man.
5 Q. Thank you. I'm going to show you a document,
6 Mr. Dzidic, which is a death certificate. It is
7 document number 4 among those given to the registrar,
8 with the reference number Z2229.
9 Mr. Dzidic, could you examine this document
10 and tell us whether the person that you referred to as
11 having lost his life while digging trenches is indeed
12 this person whose name appears on this certificate?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dzidic, during your stay in
15 the detention centre in the Workers' University and the
16 cinema hall, you were chosen to participate in
17 negotiations with representatives of the HVO together
18 with other members of the Muslim community of Vitez. I
19 should like us to refer to those negotiations, and
20 especially the telephone call that you were asked to
21 make. Could you tell us, in connection with those
22 telephone calls, whether you were forced to make them,
23 or whether you had the possibility to refuse to make
24 those telephone calls?
25 A. First of all, like the other participants in
1 the negotiations, we were people from the basement;
2 that is how Mr. Jozic frequently referred to us.
3 People from the basement, as you know, have to be
4 obedient. After these conversations, I was assigned
5 the task to talk to Mr. Ramiz Dugalic, who was the
6 liaison officer of the 3rd Corps of the BH army in
7 Zenica. Until that conversation ended, until the
8 morning, from that conversation until the morning,
9 myself, like the others, had to call anyone we knew in
10 order to stop what they described as the advance of the
11 BH army. I did whatever I could. I understood the
12 gravity of the threat. I realised that all those
13 people held in detention could become victims in that
14 prison, including myself.
15 Q. You speak of threats, the seriousness of the
16 threat. Could you specify the nature of that threat?
17 What exactly did you expect before making those
18 telephone calls, or during those telephone calls?
19 A. I expected even murders to take place,
20 because in prison, we heard amongst ourselves that some
21 people had been killed on the first day, in their own
22 apartments, at their thresholds, and in the street. My
23 life was no more valuable than that of those people.
24 Q. Thank you. You have said that among the HVO
25 representatives with whom you negotiated, there were
1 people whose names you mentioned a moment ago: A
2 gentleman called Bozic, and another person, that is,
3 Mr. Zvonko Cilic. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you know which HVO units these two
6 persons belonged to?
7 A. I did not know.
8 Q. I am now going to show you two documents,
9 Mr. Dzidic, and I'm going to ask you to examine them.
10 They are documents -- Prosecution Exhibits Z703 and
11 Z694.
12 Could you examine the document with the
13 number Z694; it's a document dated the 17th of April,
14 1993. Do you have it before you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell us who signed this document?
17 A. Zvonimir Cilic.
18 Q. Could you also tell us which is the
19 information appearing in the heading? That is, who
20 issued this document? In the top left-hand corner.
21 A. The Croatian Defence Council, the Republic of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then the command of the Vitez
23 Brigade, reference number 02, et cetera.
24 Q. Thank you. As for the second document, Z703,
25 I hope you have a good copy in the Serbo-Croatian
1 language. It is a document also dated the 17th of
2 April. Could you tell us who signed this document and
3 on behalf of whom?
4 A. It's not legible enough. It says four. I
5 think it says Josic Borislav here.
6 Q. The document in the Serbo-Croatian language
7 is indeed a poor copy, at least the one I have, but in
8 the English-language version, the signature part is far
9 clearer.
10 Could you tell us, in any event, regarding the
11 heading in the left-hand corner, who issued this
12 document?
13 A. The command of the Vitez Brigade, Vitez.
14 Q. Thank you. I should like to draw to the
15 attention of the Trial Chamber that indeed, the
16 document that I have, in the signature, in the English
17 version, a name appears which is preceded by the name
18 of the accused, and it is much clearer in the English
19 translation than in the Serbo-Croatian version.
20 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we are helped by
21 these documents. I'm going to hand them both back.
22 Hand them in.
23 Let's move on, Mr. Lopez-Terres, please. I'm
24 not admitting those documents.
25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) I thought,
1 Mr. President, that there may be some interest in
2 establishing that the two persons conducting the
3 negotiations belonged to the command of the Vitez
4 Brigade. I shall pass on to the next document, and I
5 shall continue with the examination of the witness.
6 Q. Mr. Djidic, at the end of the month of April
7 1993, you were visited by senior representatives of the
8 HVO and the BH army, after which your release
9 occurred.
10 I should like to show you another document,
11 dated the 29th of April, 1993, issued by Colonel
12 Blaskic. It is document Z852.
13 Mr. Djidic, as you are able to see, this
14 document is intended to effect the release of all
15 detainees, particularly civilian detainees, as
16 indicated in paragraph 2 and dated the 29th of April.
17 You explained that you, yourself, and other people were
18 not released then; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. Yes, 13 of us were taken out from the
20 cinema hall in the early hours of the morning and taken
21 to the chess club. The others, I think, were released.
22 Q. Could you explain to the Tribunal why, in
23 your opinion, your release and that of the other people
24 did not take effect, in spite of this order?
25 A. I cannot explain that, I never discovered,
1 but when I reviewed the group of people with me, at
2 least ten of them were highly-qualified people who held
3 certain executive posts either in the factory or in the
4 local administration, which was an indication for me
5 that they were detaining people who meant something. I
6 hope this will not sound immodest on my part. People
7 who had a certain standing in town.
8 Q. Thank you. You have told us that you were
9 transferred to the building of the chess club?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) I'm going
12 to show another document, document Z2164. Could this
13 document be shown to the witness? It is the photograph
14 of a building.
15 Q. Mr. Djidic, this building, is it the chess
16 club that you mentioned and where you were detained?
17 A. Yes, that is the chess club building. I was
18 detained, I think, here (indicating) in this second
19 section of the building, in the basement of that part
20 of the building.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djidic. You told us that you
22 stayed in this building for several days and then you
23 were transferred to the Kaonik camp, together with
24 other people.
25 During the first days of detention in the
1 Kaonik camp, were you exposed to any threats by the
2 soldiers who were guarding the camp?
3 A. The first two days, there were all kinds of
4 threats that were spoken through the slit in the door.
5 I didn't see who it was, but my impression was whoever
6 passed by the door launched a curse at us, swore at us.
7 Q. Did you receive any death threats during
8 those days?
9 A. Yes, certainly. There were death threats to
10 the effect, "You will be killed," or, "You will be
11 forced through minefields," and all kinds of things
12 like that.
13 Q. Thank you. During your detention in the
14 Kaonik camp, you told us that personally you did not
15 suffer any violence, but did you note that other
16 detainees were exposed to physical abuse?
17 A. I was not mistreated in the sense of being
18 beaten. Others, for example, Fuad Kakjno, was taken
19 out and mistreated and, after that, brought back to the
20 prison. Alija Basic was also taken out of the cell.
21 He was threatened, and after all that he didn't feel at
22 all well. As for the others, I cannot say.
23 Q. Were there, among the detainees in the Kaonik
24 camp, somebody called Smajo Kavazovic?
25 A. There was this person, Smajo Kavazovic, and
1 during a lunch break I saw him eating at a table. We
2 heard of him that he was most probably dead. However,
3 I met him in prison. There were many traces of
4 violence on his face and body.
5 Q. Around the 15th of May, 1993, you and other
6 detainees of the Kaonik prison were taken to Vitez,
7 taken back to Vitez. Upon your return to Vitez, you
8 met several persons, representatives of the HVO, didn't
9 you?
10 A. I didn't meet them. They came to the hall
11 where we were being detained. Among them was Mario
12 Cerkez, Ivica Santic and Pero Skopljak. They expressed
13 regret should those of us there present decide to leave
14 Vitez, because they offered us every security, assuring
15 us that we should stay, and that Vitez would be the
16 loser if the intellectuals left.
17 However, in view of what had happened before
18 that was not an indication that these people could be
19 trusted, especially so as my family had a day or two
20 previously been expelled in the evening and most of the
21 other people's families had also been driven out.
22 Q. Do you remember when, upon your return to
23 Vitez, one of you was hit by a soldier?
24 A. Yes. I think that was the last day that we
25 spent in the cinema hall, when a soldier entered the
1 hall, looking for Suad Salkic. He was carrying a
2 wooden bat, and he beat him with it so that there were
3 traces of blood on his head. The police were present
4 and did nothing.
5 Q. When talking about the police, are you
6 talking about the civilian or the military police?
7 A. I think it was the military police.
8 Q. You and the majority of the other members of
9 the group decided to leave Vitez and to go to Zenica.
10 At the moment of your departure, you were asked to sign
11 a document?
12 A. Yes. We were asked to sign a document saying
13 that we were voluntarily and of our own free will
14 leaving Vitez. I signed it, as did the others.
15 Q. This document had been prepared in advance,
16 hadn't it?
17 A. Yes, of course.
18 Q. All you had to do was sign it?
19 A. Exactly.
20 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) I have the
21 last document, Mr. President, I should like to show the
22 witness. It is Z2712.
23 Q. Mr. Djidic, will you please look quickly
24 through this document dated the 24th of May, 1993, and
25 entitled, "The Report On The Work Of The Commission To
1 Date"? I should like you to focus in particular on the
2 last part of the first page, where your name appears.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The names of the persons appearing below
5 yours, does that coincide with the people who were
6 detained with you in Kaonik?
7 A. Yes, but this "Emir Pezer" here who was added
8 to us because he was already in prison when we got
9 there.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. "Atif Omerovic" is a name I do not know.
12 Q. The next paragraph after the list of names
13 that you have just spoken about, there is a report
14 regarding the conditions of the release of a group of
15 14 people who wished to leave Vitez. You see that
16 paragraph? On page 2, the paragraph after the names.
17 Page 2, at the top.
18 A. Yes, I see it.
19 Q. Could you confirm that this report does
20 indeed relate to the release of you and the others that
21 occurred on the 16th of May, 1993?
22 A. I think that that is the report, because
23 Fehim Beso remained in Vitez; probably Ramo Karajko as
24 well, but I'm not quite sure about that.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djidic.
1 Before concluding, Mr. Djidic, I should like
2 to ask you, you left Vitez and you then went to join
3 your family which had been driven out of their
4 apartment, as you have already told us, haven't you?
5 A. Yes. Actually, my family was expelled to
6 Travnik, and I was transferred with the others to
7 Zenica. Then I managed to join up with my family after
8 a period of time in Zenica, because it took time to
9 find accommodation for all of us.
10 Q. Were you able to take with you any personal
11 belongings when you left Vitez?
12 A. No, I was not able to do that, nor can one
13 carry much going on foot. I tried to get my car back,
14 which was with the police, but I didn't get it. So
15 with a blanket under my arm and some of the things I
16 had in prison, I left and went to Zenica.
17 Q. You were never able to regain your apartment,
18 were you?
19 A. No, for the present, that is still not
20 possible. I have submitted a request for restoration
21 of my apartment and property. When that will be
22 achieved, I don't know.
23 Q. At the beginning of your testimony this
24 morning, Mr. Dzidic, you said that you were still a
25 teacher and that you were practising your profession in
1 Zenica. Could you tell us whether today you would have
2 the possibility of practising your profession in
3 Vitez?
4 MR. STEIN: On relevance grounds, I object.
5 JUDGE MAY: It may not take us very much
6 further, but the witness can answer.
7 A. The school I used to work in, I would
8 probably not be elected a teacher, because as far as I
9 know, there is not a single Bosniak working there with
10 children living in Vitez.
11 Q. And the programmes, educational programmes,
12 in Vitez are the same as those in the rest of the
13 Federation, the teaching programmes?
14 A. As far as I know, in the Croatian part, the
15 programme is closer or identical to the school
16 programme of the Republic of Croatia. Attempts are
17 being made to agree on a common programme. What the
18 outcome of those negotiations will be, I cannot
19 forecast now.
20 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) I have no
21 further questions, Mr. President, of this witness.
22 JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination, I hope, in
23 short order, Mr. Stein. Much of this matter has been
24 gone over before.
25 MR. STEIN: I hope you'll be pleasantly
1 surprised.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Stein:
3 [Witness answers through interpreter]
4 Q. Mr. Dzidic, let me introduce myself. My name
5 is Bob Stein; I represent Dario Kordic. If there's any
6 question that I ask you that you don't understand, let
7 me know.
8 Did you hear my question -- did you hear my
9 statement, sir? If there's any question that I ask you
10 that you don't --
11 A. Yes, I heard you, yes.
12 Q. All right. Now, how long have you been a
13 teacher?
14 A. Since 1973.
15 Q. So roughly 25 years?
16 A. Plus.
17 Q. Were you trained to be a teacher?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it fair to say that the majority of your
20 teaching has been under the communist system that
21 existed in Yugoslavia before the war?
22 A. Yes, that is incontrovertible.
23 Q. And do I take it, because you were a teacher,
24 you were addressed as "Professor"?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And if I may, I'll address you as
2 "Professor," if that's all right with you.
3 A. My diploma states that I'm a professor of
4 physics.
5 Q. Very good. Professor Dzidic, let me ask you
6 this: Was there a curriculum for the schools which was
7 imposed throughout the nation of Yugoslavia?
8 A. There was a curriculum for the Republic of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. And that curriculum stressed the communist
11 doctrine; isn't that fair to say?
12 A. Physics does not distinguish between
13 communist or any other doctrines.
14 Q. I accept that. And having miserable grades
15 in physics, I'll accept whatever you say about it. My
16 question to you, sir, is: You are aware, however, of
17 the rest of the curriculum in the schools; fair
18 enough?
19 A. You know, I taught physics, and my interest
20 in the rest of the curriculum was limited.
21 Q. All right. Let me try it another way: Is it
22 fair to say that under the communist system, the
23 teachings of the communist system required that all
24 people living within the republic be considered
25 brothers and sisters?
1 A. Brotherhood and unity was a slogan which was
2 a guiding thing in the system, and we were taught to
3 take care of each other.
4 Q. And you were taught to be tolerant of each
5 other's religions and ethnic origins as well; correct?
6 A. I was taught in my house to be tolerant of
7 all religions and of all people.
8 Q. All right. And that was also part of the
9 communist doctrine as well, to be tolerant of all
10 religions and all people; correct?
11 A. Well, yes.
12 Q. And in fact, if anyone spoke out against an
13 ethnic group, they would be punished?
14 A. Yes, there were such occurrences.
15 Q. Now, let me ask you this: Do you know a
16 woman named Emina Kaknjo? And that's E-M-I-N-A
17 K-A-K-N-J-O.
18 A. Emina Kaknjo was a child of Fuad Kaknjo.
19 Q. And she was present when you were interviewed
20 by investigators from the ICTY; correct?
21 A. This person is an interpreter. By
22 coincidence, Fuad Kaknjo has a daughter whose name is
23 Emina; but I believe that the interpreter who was
24 interpreting when I gave the statement happened to have
25 that same name.
1 Q. Fair enough.
2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) If I may,
3 Mr. President --
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
5 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: There may be a confusion.
6 There is an interpreter with whom the Prosecutor's
7 office cooperates and whose name is Emina Kaknjo, and
8 to my knowledge, she has nothing to do with Mr. Fuad
9 Kaknjo.
10 MR. STEIN: I accept that; I wanted the
11 mystery cleared up.
12 Q. Sir, let me ask you this question: I want to
13 talk about the meeting that you had, that we've heard
14 so much about, that ended up with Dr. Mujezinovic
15 making a public statement over the television. You
16 were left alone in the office and asked to use the
17 telephone to call some BiH officials to stop the
18 fighting; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Your current apartment, is that owned -- was
21 that, before you had it, used by a Croat?
22 A. No, it is an apartment of which I was the
23 first occupant, if you're referring to the apartment in
24 Vitez.
25 Q. The current apartment where you live.
1 A. The current apartment in Zenica is an
2 apartment where a person lived with his family. He is
3 a mix of Slovene and Croat, and his wife was an ethnic
4 Serb.
5 Q. All right. And last, when you were released,
6 you were exchanged for Croat civilians; isn't that
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. STEIN: Nothing further.
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic?
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:
12 [Witness answers through interpreter]
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dzidic. My name is Goran
14 Mikulicic.
15 A. Good day.
16 Q. I am an attorney from Zagreb, and I represent
17 Mr. Mario Cerkez's Defence in this case. I'm going to
18 ask you several questions, and kindly respond to them
19 to the best of your recollection.
20 Mr. Dzidic, you gave us some personal data; I
21 would just like to clarify a couple of points. Would
22 you please tell us, until the sovereignty of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina was proclaimed in April of 1992,
24 what was your citizenship?
25 A. Until the proclamation of sovereignty, I was
1 a citizen of SFRY.
2 Q. And after April 1992?
3 A. I assumed the citizenship of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina.
5 Q. Do you assume, or are you sure of it?
6 A. I should be sure of it.
7 Q. Mr. Dzidic, do you practice your religion?
8 A. Yes.
9 (Trial Chamber confers)
10 MR. MIKULICIC:
11 Q. Does that mean that I can conclude that you
12 regularly go to mosque to pray?
13 A. I go occasionally.
14 Q. Mr. Dzidic, we heard from you that you worked
15 as a teacher in school for a number of years. Given
16 that position of yours, I assume that you knew quite a
17 few people. Would you happen to have known the family
18 of Mario Cerkez, his parents?
19 A. I knew most of the citizens of this small
20 town, at least from passing, and I met and contacted a
21 number of people. I knew the parents of Mr. Cerkez,
22 mostly in a businesslike fashion. They were very
23 polite.
24 Q. Did you also have an opportunity to meet
25 Mario Cerkez?
1 A. I think I only met him in passing, and I
2 don't think we ever sat down to have a drink together.
3 Q. Mr. Dzidic, in your contacts with Mario
4 Cerkez's parents, and perhaps superficial contact with
5 Mario Cerkez himself, did you form an impression of
6 that family as a family who had any ethnic or other
7 prejudices?
8 A. No, I could not conclude any such thing.
9 Q. Mr. Dzidic, you described to us the events,
10 the unfortunate events of 16 April, 1993, when you were
11 awakened by an explosion. Then you went to the
12 apartment of your neighbour, who was an ethnic Croat
13 woman, and there you took shelter, so to speak. Did I
14 conclude that right?
15 A. Yes, exactly.
16 Q. Am I correct in saying that you actually
17 trusted this woman where you took shelter?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Dzidic, after that, you said that some
20 soldiers arrived who banged at the door of your
21 apartment, and then you showed them into the apartment
22 of your neighbour, and you recognised two of them. You
23 sat down and had coffee. Mr. Dzidic, can you tell us
24 what type of uniform these soldiers wore?
25 A. Those were camouflage uniforms.
1 Q. Do you perhaps remember, did they have any
2 insignia?
3 A. I think that they had none.
4 Q. Does that mean that you cannot tell us to
5 what unit they belonged?
6 A. Exactly.
7 Q. Mr. Dzidic, you then said that the following
8 day, you were taken to Darko Kraljevic, and of him you
9 said that he was the commander of Vitezovi? That's how
10 you said it?
11 A. No, I did not say that he was the commander
12 of Vitezovi, but it is true.
13 Q. So he was a commander of Vitezovi?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said that you were taken to a coffee bar?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recall the name of that place?
18 A. It is called 072. It is right below my
19 apartment.
20 Q. Given the proximity of it, could you tell us
21 whether this place was some kind of a headquarters of
22 the unit commanded by Darko Kraljevic?
23 A. I cannot say, because I never entered it.
24 Darko Kraljevic was in front of it, where there were
25 some tables where guests would sit. That's where I met
1 him.
2 Q. Mr. Dzidic, does this part of town where you
3 lived have a name, Kolonija?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Dzidic, where is the coffee bar called
6 "Benz"?
7 A. Next to that bar in the neighbourhood.
8 Q. You mean next to this 072 coffee bar?
9 A. They're either one next to another or very
10 close by one another.
11 Q. Is it true that these two coffee bars share
12 an outside terrace, a garden?
13 A. No, I cannot tell you because I never went
14 there.
15 Q. Mr. Djidic, you said that Darko Kraljevic had
16 ordered you arrested and taken to the cinema/theatre;
17 is that correct?
18 A. No, I said that he said that I should be
19 taken to the cinema building when I was arrested.
20 Q. To whom did he say this?
21 A. It was to his brother, Slaven, and another
22 man. I believe his name was Krizanac.
23 Q. But would I be wrong in saying that these two
24 soldiers were of the unit commanded by Darko Kraljevic?
25 A. I'm not sure, but they may have been.
1 Q. Mr. Djidic, you talked to us about conditions
2 in the basement where you were placed, and then you
3 said that you were invited to make certain telephone
4 calls. I believe we're referring now to 19 April
5 1993. Is that correct?
6 A. I cannot specify the date, but I was made
7 part of the team which was to conduct negotiations.
8 Q. My question was about the telephone calls to
9 the BH army commanders.
10 A. Yes. After the conversation with the HVO
11 officials, I was given a task of talking to the liaison
12 officer of the 3rd Corps of the BH army.
13 Q. I must ask you again, because I'm not sure
14 that I understood it right. Were you in any way forced
15 to make those telephone calls or was it suggested to
16 you?
17 A. A moment ago I mentioned that we were the
18 people from the basement, and this was often pointed
19 out during this time, which also meant that, "You
20 better be quite careful if you want to see your family
21 survive."
22 Q. On 18th of April, 1993, a cessation of all
23 hostilities was arranged between the leadership at the
24 very top, that is, the HVO and the BH army?
25 A. I was not familiar with the outcome of these
1 negotiations.
2 Q. But did you hear something about it?
3 A. Later on, but not at that time.
4 Q. Did you ever think that in a situation where
5 a day before a cease-fire had been negotiated,
6 arranged, that you would be invited to have it
7 implemented?
8 A. I did not know about it, but my overall
9 opinion was that all this should come to an end.
10 Q. Well, that is clear. But, Mr. Djidic, who,
11 in that first building where you first found yourself,
12 took you to the chess club?
13 A. There were soldiers in a van.
14 Q. Were these members of the military police?
15 A. I wouldn't know. They were in uniforms. I
16 don't know whether they were policemen or officers or
17 what.
18 Q. But do you know who took you from the chess
19 club to Kaonik?
20 A. They were also soldiers, and I believe that
21 the driver was civilian.
22 Q. Do you know members of which military units
23 were guards in Kaonik?
24 A. No. How could I know that?
25 Q. So you don't know anything about members of
1 these units?
2 A. I was on the other side of the door.
3 Q. Mr. Djidic, while you were in the cellar, as
4 you put it, could you ask and get medical assistance?
5 A. At that time, I did not need any, even though
6 I already had papers to go to the hospital. But only a
7 few days later, a physician arrived, and he told me
8 that I didn't, after all, need to go to the hospital.
9 Q. Do you remember who that doctor was?
10 A. Dr. Franjo Tibolt.
11 Q. Did he examine you on that occasion?
12 A. No. We only talked.
13 Q. During that time, were you made to engage in
14 some manual labour?
15 A. No, I was spared the trench digging.
16 Q. Who spared you? Who gave you the paper
17 sparing you from that?
18 A. Dr. Franjo.
19 Q. Mr. Djidic, at the time of your release you
20 said you had to sign a statement. Is that true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I will now show you a document. Will you
23 please try to identify it and tell us if that is the
24 statement?
25 MR. MIKULICIC: (Interpretation) Will the
1 usher please take care of these documents?
2 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D28/2.
3 A. This is my signature.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: (Interpretation)
5 Q. Will you tell us the number under which your
6 signature figures?
7 A. Number 13.
8 MR. MIKULICIC: (Interpretation) Thank you.
9 Usher, you can take those documents, you can collect
10 those documents.
11 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Djidic, at the time when
12 you were released with other people, did the television
13 make a record of this and were there journalists
14 present there?
15 A. There was a television crew there, as far as
16 I remember.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: (Interpretation) Thank you
18 very much, Mr. Djidic. I have no more questions.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: Any questions?
21 THE INTERPRETER: We're sorry, we could not
22 hear the Prosecutor. The microphone was switched off.
23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Djidic, thank you for coming
24 to the International Tribunal to give your evidence.
25 It is now concluded, and you are released.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,
3 before the next witness is called in, I should like --
4 (The witness withdrew)
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.
6 MR. MIKULICIC: (Interpretation) Thank you,
7 Your Honours. I shall be very brief.
8 During the examination of an earlier witness,
9 I believe it was Dr. Mujezinovic offered a photocopy of
10 a document. Now we have the original of that same
11 document, and I should like to tender it into evidence
12 for authenticity. It was 20/2, that is, D20/2.
13 So will the usher please take this document
14 from me? I have it for him.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, as you know from this
17 morning, I was expecting to move to procedural matters
18 after this witness and therefore didn't bring another
19 witness here for the afternoon. I understand that the
20 Defence aren't in a position to go ahead with the
21 procedural matter because Mr. Smith isn't here, which
22 is unfortunate. I haven't been served in advance with
23 any notice of what their position is going to be, but
24 they've only had since yesterday to look at the
25 statement, although they've had over a week, I think,
1 to look at the dossier.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
3 MR. NICE: It seems to me that it's very
4 unfortunate to waste even 20 minutes of time if we can
5 use it to good purpose.
6 Before I return to the subject of the
7 dossier, the Court may recall, may have before it, or
8 may indeed, want to remind itself of my printed
9 arguments for procedural possibilities at some stage
10 before the argument is advanced by the Defence, because
11 the pressure of time on the last occasion we visited
12 this problem, or not problem, this issue, was such that
13 I had to take you through it very quickly. It's
14 probably not with you on the bench at the moment, but I
15 would ask that you obtain the opportunity, if you find
16 it helpful, to consider it or reconsider it before
17 starting again on this issue.
18 It's probably helpful if I just also set the
19 scene for procedure. It's been a long time coming
20 because we've always put the taking of evidence ahead
21 of everything else, and very sensibly, if I may
22 respectfully say so.
23 But right at the beginning, the Chamber
24 raised the issue of the witness list, not on the basis
25 that it was going to make any cuts at that stage or
1 anything of the like, because it said specifically just
2 because of its wanting to know what the position was.
3 I then set out our position, subject to further
4 procedural developments, and although it was a matter
5 between -- effectively, it's a matter between the Bench
6 and the Prosecutor, each defendant had an argument on,
7 or was allowed an argument on, the witness list
8 generally at that stage, and subject to my reply, that
9 was really an end of it.
10 What happened then was that I raised
11 specifically the issue of the dossier in my procedural
12 paper as one solution to the problem, and it's
13 obviously not inappropriate that the Defence should be
14 allowed to discuss that in general terms in the same
15 way as if I sought to call the witness, they would be
16 able to object to the witness being called.
17 That's, I think, the way things stands at the
18 moment.
19 Outstanding procedural matters, apart from
20 the dossier, include, I suppose, timetable matters
21 arising from the modest change to the timetable of the
22 availability of seven more half days.
23 I had set out in my paper, and I'll remind
24 you of this, that as to experts, I had hoped to be able
25 to serve you with two more of the total of four
1 intended expert reports of a general nature by the end
2 of this week, and I hope that's still going to be
3 possible. I then invited the Court to consider the
4 possibility of reading those expert reports between the
5 end of this week and the next sitting of this Chamber
6 in order that we could take the experts really very
7 swiftly.
8 I had raised as a possibility a practice that
9 saves time in certain jurisdictions and is wholly
10 unobjectionable, so far as I'm concerned, which is that
11 competing experts, experts from opposing sides, can not
12 only be called back to back, if that's a course
13 acceptable to all, but that indeed the experts can be
14 put together outside court, before they ever come to
15 give evidence, so that they can narrow the issues that
16 exist between experts on one side and another. I have
17 no doubt that those who have tried any form of
18 conventional case involving expert witnesses will know
19 how long expert evidence can take if it is all explored
20 in detail in court, how all too frequently when that's
21 done --
22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,
23 you are saying that several experts could be together.
24 Not too general, but let us take a case, for
25 instance, an expert opinion about an area or about a
1 town. Would that be within the framework of your
2 proposal regarding the dossier? Is this related to the
3 presentation of the dossier or is it a proposal which
4 goes over and above the question of dossier, because
5 this would be within the context of the dossier,
6 wouldn't it?
7 MR. NICE: This, Your Honours, is entirely
8 separate from the dossier I mentioned in my procedural
9 paper. It relates to experts who are experts in
10 particular fields, and so that in this case we have
11 historians and we intend to have a constitutional
12 expert in matters of that sort, and those are the
13 experts I had in mind.
14 I think experience does show that if you take
15 experts who are experts in a narrow field, coming to a
16 court to give evidence on a narrow range of topics,
17 time can frequently be saved by them being invited to
18 consider the extent to which they truly disagree and
19 the extent to which they agree.
20 I've raised this in my paper. I haven't had
21 any response yet from the Defence. I don't know what
22 their attitude to it is.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I don't have your
24 paper in front of me. There's one aspect of it that I
25 recall had to do with the question of
1 cross-examination.
2 MR. NICE: Yes.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You quoted the relevant
4 provision of International Covenant on Civil and
5 Political Rights, which speaks of the right to examine
6 and to have examined. Thereafter, you, I think,
7 pointed to a commentary on it, and I think you are
8 suggesting that that comment made the point that the
9 formulation that I have referred to is the way it is to
10 take account of differences in the two legal systems or
11 in different legal systems.
12 What I wanted to find out from you is whether
13 you are suggesting that the right to examine and have
14 examined witnesses as a right of the accused, whether
15 the International Covenant is satisfied in some systems
16 without the accused actually having the right to
17 cross-examine. I don't know whether that is the point
18 that you are getting at, that the right to examine and
19 have examined does not necessarily mean, in some legal
20 systems, that the witnesses have to be cross-examined
21 by the accused person.
22 MR. NICE: Your Honour's recollection of the
23 detail of the paper is very accurate. It's certainly
24 the case using the word "witness" in the way which Your
25 Honour does, that some systems do not demand or require
1 that the defendant should have the right to
2 cross-examine the witness when the word "witness" is
3 used in that way.
4 May I respectfully submit that, first of all,
5 this Tribunal itself, in its general acceptance of
6 hearsay, of course acknowledges that the defendant
7 doesn't have the right to cross-examine everyone who,
8 as it were, might be able to give evidence against him
9 or her, and may I suggest that one of the interesting
10 issues that this problem throws up is the real
11 difference between the two systems, the common law and
12 the civil system, and it shows the difficulties that
13 practitioners on one side or the other have with
14 dealing with the other system's approach to evidence.
15 It's probably a good idea, if I can presume
16 so to say, to use the word "witness" only in respect to
17 people who come to court or, alternatively, who give
18 evidence by video link, and to find and uniformly to
19 use another word for people whose evidence would be
20 given through that witness.
21 Sometimes, I think, in the jurisprudence with
22 which we are familiar, when looking at the famous
23 common-law concept of hearsay, wholly unknown to the
24 civil lawyers, the word "declarant" is used, the
25 declarant of a statement. One could use that word.
1 One could use the word "observer" for somebody who
2 observes events, whose observations are then
3 transmitted to the Court through the witness who brings
4 them.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can I just interrupt you:
6 I'm not too concerned, overly concerned about the
7 jurisprudence of the Tribunal, which I know, and which
8 obviously, if it comes from a certain body, is binding;
9 but I would be very much helped in my appreciation of
10 the entire problem that we are looking at if I could be
11 persuaded that the International Covenant, which I
12 consider the basic human rights document, certainly
13 next to the Universal Declaration, if it could be shown
14 to me that that instrument legitimises or authorises a
15 situation in which an accused person does not
16 necessarily have a right to cross-examine a witness,
17 but that that witness -- or declarant or maker or
18 provider of information; it doesn't matter to me what
19 you call that person -- but that person is examined or
20 -- in some other way, you know?
21 My concern is to satisfy myself that the
22 norms in the Covenant, which, in my view, reflect
23 customary international law, are satisfied in that kind
24 of situation. And I wondered -- my thoughts were
25 provoked when I saw the comment in your paper that I
1 think the Covenant was formulated in the way it was to
2 meet the variations, the vicissitudes in different
3 legal systems.
4 MR. NICE: Well, my understanding of the
5 question is that the answer is yes. To some extent,
6 the answer is particularised by the examples we give
7 from the civil system, as understood by us, and
8 proposed. It's helpful to have your question
9 overnight. I will attempt, if I may, to bring further
10 chapter and verse to show that such systems fall within
11 the Covenant for you first thing in the morning, if
12 that would help.
13 But it's certainly the case, under the civil
14 systems that we have summarised -- and they're not all
15 the same -- that witnesses bring information from
16 declarants or observers, and that there is no automatic
17 right to have each and every observer or declarant --
18 absent some particular exception: death, or
19 whatever -- there is no absolute right to have those
20 people brought before a court, although in certain of
21 the jurisdictions, as we understand it, there is a
22 strong presumption that important ones will, of course,
23 be made available.
24 But it appears, for example, in the French
25 system -- and Mr. Lopez-Terres will correct me if I'm
1 wrong, or probably Judge Bennouna -- but in the French
2 system, the Court decides the degree to which the
3 defendant's case requires that there should be
4 witnesses available for cross-examination, assuming the
5 witnesses are available, but nevertheless is free to
6 draw on other material, providing that material is read
7 out, so that it's part of the public record, for its
8 final decision. And that must accommodate the Covenant
9 and must fit within it. But if you can give me until
10 tomorrow morning, now that your question is completely
11 articulated, I'll hope to be able to bring you some
12 more specific answers to that problem.
13 Certainly, if we aren't able to fit such
14 practices within the Covenant, then there's the general
15 policy of the Tribunal, and its approach to hearsay
16 would present a difficulty. But that's for another
17 day, maybe, because that issue is clearly resolved.
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, moving on, you
19 mentioned experts and a suggestion about experts.
20 MR. NICE: Yes.
21 JUDGE MAY: Now, has there been any
22 discussion between the parties about this suggestion?
23 MR. NICE: I haven't heard back from the
24 Defence on that.
25 Before I close what I have to say about
1 experts, there's the outstanding issue of the
2 constitutional expert. Just to remind the Chamber, the
3 constitutional expert we originally hoped to be able to
4 call gave evidence and was extensively cross-examined
5 in Blaskic. Well before the trial, I summarised, in a
6 digestible way, his evidence, served it for admission,
7 but it was rejected. That witness, in light of what
8 happened to him after he gave evidence in Blaskic, is
9 not prepared to come in person to help us, and we are
10 attempting -- I think we have identified a substitute
11 expert.
12 It's plainly a witness that has to come, not
13 least because of the very detailed account given of
14 constitutional matters in the Defence pre-trial brief,
15 which, although not identified as to its author, would
16 appear to be the content of an expert's report.
17 One of our problems in identifying a
18 substitute expert has been the hope that the
19 Prosecution's case will finish within a reasonably
20 short period of time. Therefore, if an expert is
21 available but only available next year, we've had to
22 rule him out. I think we have now identified an
23 expert, but I'm not sure how long it's going to take me
24 to have the report prepared for service.
25 That apart, there will be three, I think, by
1 the end of this week or the very beginning of next
2 week. You've seen one of them already. The second one
3 comes from Mr. Cigar and the third from Mr. Allcock.
4 I'm anxious that their testimony can be taken in the
5 most concise and useful way possible.
6 JUDGE MAY: But unless there's agreement by
7 the Defence on this matter, you'll have to call them in
8 the conventional way.
9 MR. NICE: Yes, of course. I accept that.
10 JUDGE MAY: Your suggestion would be that the
11 experts should meet, or something of that sort, or
12 should correspond, and try and thrash out what is in
13 dispute and what is agreed between them?
14 MR. NICE: Yes, because it's a practice that
15 in other areas works very well.
16 JUDGE MAY: It seems a sensible suggestion
17 and limits the amount of evidence. The time which is
18 necessary given to it can be given to it outside.
19 Well, we'll put that matter to the Defence in due
20 course.
21 Looking ahead, since we've got another five
22 minutes, as I've said, we have to fix the calendar for
23 the rest of the year. I'm sorry that hasn't been done
24 already, but it's because of the difficulties of other
25 cases impinging on this one. I do recognise that for
1 those involved, it does cause an inconvenience if you
2 don't know what you're supposed to be doing in the
3 autumn, so we shall come to it as soon as we possibly
4 can.
5 I think it likely -- although it's not yet
6 decided -- that we shall be sitting from the 13th of
7 September. To start with, I shall be engaged in
8 another case in the morning, for some of that time, and
9 we shall run through until October. We hope fairly
10 soon to be able to give you some finalised dates.
11 What I think would be helpful, from the point
12 of view of the Trial Chamber, from the Prosecution, is
13 an estimate of how long they are going to be, because
14 we may want to take a view about that. How long is it
15 going to take for the rest of the Prosecution case?
16 Given, for instance, if you had full court time, how
17 long would it take for you to finish your case, having
18 in mind, for instance, how long Blaskic took?
19 MR. NICE: As you know, I have always hoped
20 that our case, although similar in overall scale of
21 issues to Blaskic, would take a very substantially
22 shorter period of time, not least because we have the
23 advantage of being able to learn lessons from what's
24 happened in Blaskic.
25 My belief is that if the dossier approach
1 finds favour -- and if it's something that we can
2 accomplish, because it's very labour-intensive on our
3 side, I have to say, but if it's acceptable, we'll find
4 the resources to do it -- then that will immediately
5 save a very considerable amount of time.
6 My further belief is that the techniques that
7 I've been developing for taking evidence in chief are
8 paying off, I think quite handsomely, in the time that
9 evidence is taking, not only because evidence in chief
10 is getting shorter, but it seems to me that there is a
11 corresponding focus by the Defence that is shortening
12 cross-examination.
13 I would like a day or so to look, with my
14 team, at the witness list, with those various
15 possibilities in mind, and in a sense, I'd be helped by
16 knowing what the response to the dossier issue is,
17 although that may take some time to come from the
18 Chamber; I recognise that. But I would think that if
19 you give us a couple of days, I can give you, one way
20 or another, some target periods of time that I estimate
21 our case will take.
22 I have to say that there are always going to
23 be odd problems along the way. We are, for example,
24 encountering some difficulty with witnesses generally,
25 rather more than we'd expected, including in respect of
1 witnesses who were very recently willing. That always
2 creates difficulties for us because we've got to decide
3 what our response to their attitude is, and our
4 response may itself be sometimes time-consuming, or it
5 may be simply the response of choosing other witnesses,
6 and so on.
7 So there are always going to be unexpected or
8 developing difficulties, but I think things are in
9 hand, and within a few days I could give you an
10 estimate of time.
11 JUDGE MAY: Tomorrow, you propose, Mr. Nice,
12 hearing one witness; is that right?
13 MR. NICE: No, the Defence have indicated an
14 hour and a half, I think, for the procedural
15 discussion. I have no idea of the time it may take; I
16 will obviously require -- or may need to say things in
17 reply. But if it's an hour and a half out of the
18 morning, that would take us till -- well, I would hope
19 not only to do one witness, but two witnesses, by
20 Friday lunchtime, is the short --
21 JUDGE MAY: Why is it suggested that the
22 procedural matters should take precedence tomorrow
23 morning over the evidence?
24 MR. NICE: Only because, if you remember,
25 this morning, you had suggested procedure tomorrow
1 afternoon, and I had suggested that we take procedure
2 because it had been partially agreed after Dzidic, and
3 you said that was satisfactory. I'm quite happy to
4 start a witness, or Mr. Scott's quite happy to start a
5 witness at 9.45 tomorrow morning and to take him as
6 swiftly as may be, and that will then leave a witness,
7 perhaps, for Friday, who I would hope could be taken in
8 -- completely, start to finish -- in the morning.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'd better resolve
10 this procedural matter tomorrow morning first thing,
11 one way or another.
12 Mr. Stein, can I address you on behalf of the
13 Defence, in the absence of Mr. Smith?
14 MR. STEIN: Certainly.
15 JUDGE MAY: It may be that one approach to
16 this problem of the dossier is having seen it -- and
17 we'll hear your objections, although I think we can
18 probably anticipate them -- one approach may be to test
19 the system, as it were, further, with one dossier, and
20 see how that works or doesn't work in practice. I
21 don't expect a response to that now, but that may be a
22 suggestion which is made tomorrow.
23 I can tell you, thinking aloud, myself --
24 this is a purely personal opinion about it -- there is
25 in the dossier a great deal of material which, under
1 our Rules, is potentially admissible; that would be the
2 documentary material and the photographs and the like.
3 That leaves the issue of the witness statements, which
4 I suppose is the nub of the matter, and about that
5 there can be argument. But one approach might be, your
6 having had the summary, is to ask you what's in dispute
7 here, what is the real issue about this village, and
8 then determine what, if any, witnesses should be called
9 on that issue.
10 I put that forward for your consideration,
11 and we'll hear your submissions on it tomorrow.
12 MR. STEIN: I won't preclude those or preview
13 them now, except to say that I believe sincerely that
14 the dossier approach will lengthen and not shorten this
15 trial.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Stein,
17 what has been proposed by the Court is an experiment;
18 it is not a question of faith and what we believe in.
19 We should rather like to go into juridic science and
20 experiment a little. It is not a question of what we
21 believe in or not. That will not help us to make
22 progress.
23 This being so, if we pass from the area of
24 beliefs to the area of science and practice and
25 experimentation, we all have in mind the rights of the
1 accused, the rights of the Defence. I think that is
2 essential, and that is the reply to what was said a
3 moment ago by my colleague, Judge Robinson, about the
4 Covenant on Civil Rights. That is the respect of the
5 rights of the Defence. There are different ways of
6 respecting the rights of the Defence, but it is
7 essential that those rights be respected.
8 If we go through this dossier and you tell us
9 that for such-and-such a person mentioned, or statement
10 mentioned, we need to hear them, then there will be no
11 problem; but as for others, there is no reason to bring
12 them, because they will be repeating what other people
13 have said. There may be witnesses who will be
14 repetitive. In that case, we will be economising, all
15 of us, and that is the spirit in which we are working.
16 Respect for the rights of the Defence:
17 Nothing should be done that would infringe upon that
18 right. But on the other hand, we must respect the
19 institution, not to waste time and resources without
20 any cause. And I think, with a certain degree of an
21 open mind, we may go ahead with this kind of an
22 experiment, and that is the spirit that I wish to
23 convey to you.
24 MR. STEIN: Judge, perhaps it's because I'm a
25 New Englander; I have a reputation for being
1 conservative. But in fact we have many experiments
2 going on in our jurisdiction. I have tried civil cases
3 in which we've put on our damage evidence before we got
4 to our liability evidence. I've tried cases to summary
5 juries, where you make an offer of proof of your case,
6 and they give you an opinion. We have many novel
7 experiments. I must confess the idea of duelling
8 experts in the back room, while I've heard it before,
9 just intrigues me intellectually, but I'm not sure
10 we're going to agree to that in this particular
11 instance.
12 So it's not that we're afraid to make
13 innovative techniques, and I'm sure the Chamber, as do
14 we, weigh the balance of that innovative technique to
15 not only the search for truth, but the defendants'
16 rights as established under our process. Mr. Smith
17 will address that, as only he can, and I will address
18 it, hopefully, tomorrow, on a more practical level --
19 having put my foot in it, I'll just leave it there.
20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, if you could have the
21 witness here at a reasonable hour tomorrow, I hope we
22 won't be too long with this argument.
23 MR. NICE: We'll have him here straight away,
24 first thing in the morning, I think, for safety.
25 MR. STEIN: Can we know who the witness is?
1 MR. NICE: One of them is seeking some
2 protection. I'll tell my friends the order I propose
3 to take them, unless they've got any objection. If
4 not, it's the next two witnesses on the list, because
5 the last three I cancelled, as they will remember. The
6 only other evidence that I might seek to lead this
7 week, if time allows, is the two witnesses who took the
8 statement from Dr. Mujezinovic which has been the
9 subject of such heavy complaint.
10 MR. STEIN: And to the extent we can have
11 their summaries ahead of time, it certainly is helpful.
12 MR. NICE: Yes, that's not a problem.
13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Tomorrow morning at
14 quarter to 10.00, please.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
16 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened on
17 Thursday, the 17th day of June,
18 1999, at 9.45 a.m.
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