Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7173

1 Tuesday, 21st September, 1999

2 [Private session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 11.32 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]









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23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.15 p.m.



Page 7228

1 --- On resuming at 2.45 p.m.

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

5 Mr. President, Your Honours, let me first introduce to

6 you, or give my apologies from Geoffrey Nice who will

7 not be able to be with us this afternoon because he is

8 working in the Jelisic case, and that is that case is

9 meeting at the same time as this one, the Kordic case.

10 I would also like to say that at the request

11 of the witness who will appear this afternoon, that we

12 have filed a motion that the witness be granted

13 protective measures. So that I can present it to you,

14 I would like us to be able to move into private

15 session.

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Page 7234

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness P, after the 1990 elections and until

20 June of 1992, would you say that the working relations

21 within the municipal institutions in Novi Travnik

22 between the Croats and Muslims were good until June

23 1992, the time when the HVO attacked certain

24 institutions within the city of Novi Travnik? Is that

25 correct?

Page 7235

1 A. Yes, one could say that relations were more

2 or less good sometime up until April '92.

3 Q. April 1992. That corresponds with the

4 establishment of the HVO; is that correct?

5 A. Roughly, yes. In April 1992, the first flag

6 of Herceg-Bosna was hoisted, the flag of the Croatian

7 people, a flag with Croatian emblems, on the

8 municipality. This was on the 10th of April, 1992.

9 Q. Before that period in April 1992, were there

10 some events that took place in the municipality of Novi

11 Travnik which dealt with the sending of weapons and

12 ammunition from the Bratstvo factory to the JNA, and

13 the Croats in the region were opposed to that type of

14 delivery? Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that was so. Since in Novi Travnik,

16 there was the military factory, Bratstvo, which mostly

17 manufactured all kinds of weapons, including heavy

18 weapons, and as there was a conflict going on in

19 Croatia at the same time against the JNA, they opposed

20 deliveries of weapons from Bratstvo to the JNA.

21 Q. Is it true that certain trucks that were

22 carrying those weapons and ammunition were stopped and

23 that the Croats seized some of the trucks?

24 A. Yes, that is correct. I know of one truck

25 which was stopped in the village of Bucici, but I don't

Page 7236

1 know what happened with that truck or the weapons and

2 equipment. What happened with it, I don't know. I

3 know that it was stopped at the village of Bucici.

4 Q. The Croats that we are speaking about had

5 seized the trucks by force; is that correct? The

6 trucks that we are speaking about?

7 A. The truck was stopped by armed civilians, and

8 some, by then, soldiers with weapons.

9 Q. Did you, yourself, notice at that time that

10 there were armed civilians and soldiers preventing the

11 traffic of those vehicles in the area of Novi Travnik?

12 A. Yes, it was in that period that traffic was

13 stopped in that area; that is, the area from Bucici

14 towards the crossroads on the Travnik/Sarajevo

15 highway.

16 Q. Do you know to which units those armed

17 soldiers belonged and where they came from?

18 A. Colleagues from the HDZ in those days told me

19 that these were members of their Territorial Defence.

20 I know of one man, who was a local man, who came from

21 the area of Croatia, from the Croatian army, Ivo,

22 Suse. I also heard reports that there were people who

23 came from Croatia, other people also, who had come from

24 Croatia.

25 Q. Were roadblocks set up on the road at that

Page 7237

1 point, more or less March of 1992? Is that correct?

2 A. These were not barricades. In fact, they

3 were just people stopping vehicles, the people I have

4 described. They were the ones who stopped those

5 vehicles. I don't remember any particular barricades

6 being put up.

7 Q. Do you know whether the accused Dario Kordic

8 was involved in those incidents, stopping the vehicles

9 that were coming out of the factory?

10 A. I would meet Mr. Kordic in those days, and he

11 did participate in those activities.

12 Q. At that same time, did you also participate

13 in a television broadcast with Mr. Dario Kordic in

14 Sarajevo, a broadcast in which the president of the

15 parliament, Mr. Jozo Sekic, was also a participant?

16 A. I remember a programme on the 21st of March.

17 It was a Saturday. The programme was moderated by

18 journalist Smiljko Sagolj. It was called "Vidokrug,"

19 or "Perspectives." I participated; the president of

20 the assembly, Jozo Sekic; and Dario Kordic.

21 Q. That was the 21st of March; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. The purpose of the broadcast, inter alia, was

24 to mention the events that were taking place all

25 around; that is, having to do with the weapons from

Page 7238

1 that Bratstvo factory?

2 A. I think that the programme had two aims. One

3 was to show what was happening with the military

4 industry, and especially the military industry in Novi

5 Travnik, the Bratstvo factory. But I think another aim

6 was to present for the first time the by then already

7 formed Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I would

9 like to show the Trial Chamber a short extract of that

10 broadcast so that the witness can identify it. Let me

11 state for the Trial Chamber that the witness appears on

12 the videotape that's going to be shown, and perhaps a

13 protective measure should also be ordered to preclude

14 the witness's being recognised on that tape.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to show it in closed

16 session; that's the only way that the witness can be

17 protected.

18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] It will be

19 very short.

20 [Closed session]

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Page 7239













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Page 7240

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9 [Open session]

10 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness P, you saw the short excerpt from the

12 television programme that I referred to. Is that, in

13 fact, the broadcast that took place in Sarajevo on the

14 21st of March, 1992, in which you yourself were a

15 participant with the accused, Dario Kordic, and the

16 president of the parliament, Mr. Jozo Sekic, everything

17 under the control of the journalist Smiljko Sagolj?

18 A. Yes, that is that programme.

19 Q. Witness P, I'm now going to show you the

20 transcript of the entire broadcast, which has several

21 pages and which records some of the statements that you

22 made and those of the journalists and the other

23 participants. I would ask you to review the transcript

24 which is referenced Z53.1 in B/C/S and Z53A in

25 English.

Page 7241

1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: The document should itself

2 be protected insofar as it includes the witness's

3 name.

4 Q. Would it be possible, Witness P, to look at

5 the last page of the document in which you appear. You

6 say something right before the answer given by the

7 accused. Could you give us a comment of what you meant

8 in that statement and read out to us what the accused,

9 Dario Kordic, answered?

10 A. My comment was the following: I simply said

11 what I knew and what my people felt, as well as a large

12 number of citizens in those days, and that was that the

13 Croatian community could not be established, as

14 imagined, by the representatives of the political party

15 of HDZ, and the comment of Dario Kordic was that no one

16 has the right to stand in the way of the Croatian

17 people in organising themselves as they wanted. That

18 was the comment.

19 Q. Thank you. You could put the document down.

20 Sometime after that television programme in

21 March 1992, did you have the opportunity to see Dario

22 Kordic again, who at that time was accompanied by

23 soldiers in Novi Travnik?

24 A. I came across Dario Kordic many times in that

25 period, including in my own office where he would come,

Page 7242

1 as well as in the vicinity of the Bratstvo factory.

2 Q. I would like you to speak to us about the day

3 that Dario Kordic came to your office to talk with you

4 about the removal of two multiple-rocket launchers.

5 Could you speak to us about that day?

6 A. Dario Kordic came one day, one evening,

7 together with soldiers that were escorting him; and

8 Mr. Marinko Marelja, who was an owner of cafe Novi

9 Travnik; and the president of the assembly, Jozo

10 Sekic. As far as I remember, they were with him. He

11 wanted to take with him some equipment. I remember

12 they were two rocket launchers, VBRs as they were

13 called.

14 I know that there was a piece of paper. It

15 was an ordinary piece of paper, torn off from a

16 notebook, a cheque notebook, on which he wrote down

17 that he would pay or return those pieces of equipment

18 by the end of June. I don't know what happened in the

19 end.

20 Q. Is the document that you're speaking about

21 one that Dario Kordic wrote himself and gave to you?

22 A. Yes. I saw that document. I don't know

23 where it ended up. I remember it very well.

24 Q. I'm going to show you a document. It is a

25 document which was already admitted by another Trial

Page 7243

1 Chamber. It is Z78.

2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: The document is referenced

3 Z78A, which is -- there's another 78B. I'm talking

4 about 78A that I want you to show to the witness.

5 Q. This is Z78. It was admitted in April of

6 last year. I think it is the handwritten document.

7 Yes, it's that one.

8 A. I have ... that document. Yes, that is the

9 document.

10 Q. The document with the signature of Dario

11 Kordic is the one that you saw at the time, which was

12 given to you by the accused; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that is the document.

14 Q. If I understand the document correctly, it is

15 stated that the rocket launchers in question should

16 either be paid for or given back on the 20th of June,

17 1992.

18 A. Yes. That is what it says here in the

19 document and that is how it was.

20 Q. As far as you remember, who was supposed to

21 pay for those multiple-rocket launchers? Which

22 authority was supposed to pay for them?

23 A. Mr. Kordic, as far as I can recollect, said

24 that the defence secretariat of Busovaca would pay for

25 it, because our joint Defence Ministry was still

Page 7244

1 functioning in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

2 the Minister was Jerko Doko.

3 Q. The accused, Dario Kordic, at that time was

4 the office [sic] of that defence office for Busovaca;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes. That is what I know.

7 Q. I believe that you have looked at another

8 document that was given to you in advance. Could you

9 look at it? It's a typed document.

10 A. Yes. I see that document.

11 Q. Did you see that document on the day that it

12 was given to you or the other one was given to you,

13 rather?

14 A. This document is one that I didn't see on

15 that day. I only saw the first document, handwritten

16 on a piece of paper with squares on it.

17 Q. In your opinion, was this document issued by

18 the Bratstvo factory? Does it show the ordinary

19 characteristics of that factory?

20 A. In my view, that is not a document. The

21 customary document issued by the factory would have a

22 memorandum with the name of the factory, the telephone

23 numbers and the faxes, and it would have to be stamped

24 at the bottom saying who delivered what. I don't see

25 that in this document.

Page 7245

1 Q. I think that you've already said that the

2 multiple-rocket launchers that are in question were

3 never brought back to the Bratstvo factory, nor were

4 ever paid for. Is that correct?

5 A. Do I not know that they were paid for or

6 returned.

7 Q. Do you have any idea where those weapons

8 went?

9 A. Judging by what we heard, they went off

10 towards Herzegovina or Croatia. I don't know exactly.

11 Q. Aside from the facts that we're speaking

12 about that go back to approximately the 20th of April,

13 1992, as far as you know, did the accused, Dario

14 Kordic, ever take other weapons from the Bratstvo

15 factory?

16 A. I know that Kordic came to Novi Travnik

17 municipality on several occasions and also to the

18 Bratstvo factory. I saw him several times coming in an

19 armoured vehicle up to the municipality where he held

20 meetings. This was an armoured bus. He also went to

21 the village of Margetici, which is in the immediate

22 vicinity of the Bratstvo factory. Then he would come

23 in a combat armoured vehicle.

24 Q. When Dario Kordic would come to Novi Travnik

25 and go to the Bratstvo factory to take weapons, as

Page 7246

1 you've just said, was he dressed in a uniform or was he

2 wearing civilian clothes?

3 A. As far as I can remember, I mostly saw

4 Mr. Kordic, at the beginning in the war, in military

5 uniform. If my office -- he would come to my office

6 wearing a military uniform and also on other

7 occasions.

8 Q. Was he always accompanied by armed men?

9 A. When he came to my office, he was escorted by

10 men in camouflage military uniform, under arms. Also,

11 with him, Ignac Kostroman would come quite often.

12 Q. Thank you. Is it true, Witness P, that

13 around June of 1992, before the conflict broke out on

14 the 19th of June, that you and -- yourself and other

15 Muslim authorities of the municipality received

16 instructions from the HVO, according to which you were

17 to submit or, rather, you would subordinate yourself to

18 the authorities?

19 A. Yes. I saw that document personally in the

20 Grand cafe. It was Ilija Zuljevic who had the

21 document, and at the time he performed the function of

22 Minister for Veterans Affairs in the republican

23 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I heard from

24 colleagues in the HDZ of Novi Travnik that such demands

25 had been made.

Page 7247

1 Q. Were you told at the time that the request

2 for your submission came from Mate Boban?

3 A. I do not remember. I'm sure it came from

4 Mate Boban, but I do not recollect whose signature

5 appeared on that document, but I know it was from the

6 political and military leadership of Herceg-Bosna. In

7 those days, the two were melded together.

8 Q. You're speaking about the heading of the

9 document that was given to you by Mr. Zuljevic; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes. I saw that document, only he showed it

12 to me and he said that that was something that we had

13 to do, that we had to subordinate ourselves and place

14 ourselves under the command of the HVO.

15 Q. What did you answer when he spoke to you

16 about what the consequences of that kind of submission

17 would be, if such submission would take place?

18 A. I asked him whether he knew what that

19 document meant and what consequences it could have, and

20 I told him that it could only have the consequence of

21 bloodshed in Novi Travnik. He responded that it was an

22 order that had to be carried out into practice.

23 Q. This Minister Zuljevic that you're speaking

24 about, was he himself a member of the Croatian party,

25 the HDZ?

Page 7248

1 A. Certainly he was a member of the HDZ. That

2 is my conclusion, as he was a Minister on behalf of the

3 HDZ.

4 Q. Witness P, a little bit later, around the

5 middle of May, 1992, after the HVO had taken over power

6 in Busovaca, were you sent to Busovaca yourself at the

7 request of Mr. Efendic and Mr. Jahic, who told you that

8 you should speak with Dario Kordic and find out what

9 happened in Busovaca? Is that correct?

10 A. Yes. That is exactly what happened.

11 Q. So you went to Busovaca, and on that day your

12 vehicle was stopped at an HVO checkpoint near Kaonik,

13 around the Mediapan factory; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. That is exactly what happened. I went

15 in a red Golf vehicle with a driver and the vehicle was

16 stopped at the checkpoint. It was a barricade really,

17 at the place named Kaonik, at the bridge across the

18 Lasva River, near the Mediapan factory.

19 Q. On that day, you didn't have an appointment

20 with the accused, Dario Kordic; is that correct?

21 A. No. I did not have a scheduled appointment

22 with Dario Kordic, but I hoped that he would receive us

23 once we explained why we came to Busovaca.

24 Q. On two occasions you spoke to one or two

25 other people; is that correct? Did you speak together?

Page 7249

1 A. I only had a driver with me, the person who

2 drove me.

3 Q. Going back to that checkpoint that was near

4 the Mediapan factory, could you tell us in a few words

5 what happened during the check and how the soldiers

6 received you and then contacted the Tisovac centre?

7 A. We were stopped in a very rude way. When I

8 showed my personal ID and I asked to be received by

9 Mr. Kordic, I heard a voice coming through the radio.

10 They said, "Send the Turk over here," and they swore my

11 mother, and "so we can cut his throat." Then the

12 soldier said that Dario Kordic would guarantee that if

13 I passed through.

14 Q. Were you able to hear those words clearly,

15 because you were very close to the person who was

16 holding the radio?

17 A. It was very, very clear. I was outside, and

18 I was standing next to the soldiers, and I heard this

19 being said.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you were

21 authorised to go to the Tisovac Hotel, which at that

22 point -- where Dario Kordic was, and that hotel is

23 outside of Busovaca; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, I was allowed to come to the Hotel

25 Tisovac, and after I waited for a period of time, Dario

Page 7250

1 Kordic appeared with Ignac Kostroman. They were both

2 wearing military uniforms.

3 Q. Both of them were wearing uniforms; is that

4 what you're saying?

5 A. Yes, they were both wearing uniforms, and

6 there was some kind of a headquarters there. I

7 remember that there were a lot of soldiers there. I

8 know that there was some bulldozer or some earth mover,

9 so there was some earth being moved around there.

10 Q. During the meeting that you had with the

11 accused Dario Kordic and Ignac Kostroman, did they

12 explain to you that what was going on in Busovaca had

13 happened because of an order which had been issued,

14 according to which the Muslims had to subordinate

15 themselves to the HVO, the Croats in Busovaca, and that

16 the order had to be implemented, and that in addition

17 there were a few extremist Muslims who wanted to

18 prejudice the Croats in Busovaca? In any case, that's

19 how they explained the take-over of power by the Croats

20 in May of 1992?

21 A. Yes, that's exactly what the explanation was

22 of the political and military situation in the town of

23 Busovaca. All Bosniaks were then expelled from the

24 government, and all the institutions of the Republic of

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina were purged of all Bosniaks by

Page 7251

1 the civilian government and the military government and

2 all the institutions which were joined at the time.

3 Q. Did Dario Kordic and Mr. Kostroman make any

4 other comments about possible coexistence of the

5 Muslims and Croats in the municipal institutions of the

6 Herceg-Bosna Community?

7 A. This was really in dispute at the time. They

8 insisted on the establishment of the Herceg-Bosna

9 government, and later things would be as they would

10 turn out to be.

11 Q. Did they expressly tell you, on the day that

12 you met with them, they could no longer accept a joint

13 authority with the Muslims in the Croatian Community of

14 Herceg-Bosna?

15 A. They insisted that the HZ-HB be implemented

16 with all its institutions, and nobody paid any

17 attention to what was going to happen to the Bosniaks.

18 Q. Did you have a discussion with the accused

19 Kostroman [sic] which lasted for about an hour?

20 A. Yes, somewhere around there. I believe that

21 it may have lasted for about an hour. I know that they

22 were busy, that they had other duties, they had other

23 meetings; that is what they said. And so we stayed

24 there for about one hour and then we parted.

25 After my visit to Tisovac, on that same day,

Page 7252

1 I visited a man called Husein Hadzimejlic, who at the

2 time was in a position of the TO staff. I went to his

3 home in Busovaca and told him everything that happened,

4 that the Bosniaks were practically removed from all

5 institutions of power, and he was scared and confused.

6 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: I'd like to correct

7 something, if you allow me to, Mr. President. Let me

8 point out, the question that I asked, reference is made

9 to "the accused Kostroman"; I think I was referring to

10 the accused Dario Kordic and Kostroman.

11 Q. Witness P, still in May 1992, on the 28th of

12 May, 1992, specifically, was a new team put into place

13 in the municipality of Novi Travnik?

14 A. I saw this document at the centre for

15 information and alert. That was the centre under my --

16 which was in my competence, under my authority, and I

17 saw that this document was signed by Dario Kordic. I

18 remember that Zvonimir Grahovac was there; he was the

19 president. The vice-president -- I cannot recall

20 exactly who the vice-president was. I know that Zlatan

21 Civcija was head of the MUP, and the Department of

22 Information and Propaganda was Marinko Marelja, the

23 owner of the Grand Cafe. I was in a position to see

24 all the names, I think about nine persons altogether,

25 and no Bosniak was among them.

Page 7253

1 Q. A little bit later, on the 19th of June,

2 1992, Witness P, did you have meetings during the day

3 with political and military representatives on the

4 Muslim side, among whom were Mr. Saban Imamovic, and

5 during the meetings, did you meet with the

6 representatives of the Croatian side, that is, Mr. Jozo

7 Sekic, Mr. Marinko Marelja, and could you speak to us

8 briefly about what took place during those two meetings

9 on the 19th of June, 1992?

10 A. Yes, in the morning we held a meeting with

11 the president of the HDZ. At the same time, he was the

12 president of the presidency of the Novi Travnik

13 municipality, so this body had been established by the

14 laws of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We met with him as

15 both the president of the HDZ and the municipal

16 assembly, so the political top, Croatian top of Novi

17 Travnik who were there. But we were unable to reach

18 any agreements as a result of this meeting. I

19 attempted to call the next meeting with Zvonimir

20 Grahovac, and he agreed to another meeting around 5.30

21 in the afternoon.

22 Meanwhile, between these two meetings, I

23 received information from Refik Lendo, the TO commander

24 at the time, that we had received an ultimatum, and I

25 heard it then directly from Marinko Marelja that if we

Page 7254

1 did not militarily subordinate ourselves to the HVO,

2 that we would be militarily defeated and that the HVO

3 authority in Novi Travnik would be established.

4 Q. During those meetings at the Workers' Centre

5 in the city of Novi Travnik, the headquarters of the TO

6 was attacked; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is exactly what happened. About 20

8 minutes into the meeting, we could hear shooting in

9 town, and that was the attack on the TO headquarters,

10 which was next to the police headquarters in Novi

11 Travnik, practically next door.

12 Q. Is it true that you were also able to hear

13 that there were loudspeakers set up in the city being

14 used by the HVO over which the HVO said that orders

15 from the Muslim authorities had been given to

16 surrender?

17 A. Yes, that is exactly what happened. The TO

18 units were then called to subordinate themselves to the

19 HVO. The HVO could do so because they had taken over

20 the centre for information, and he was -- the head of

21 the centre was a Croat.

22 Q. Did you, yourself, check with the military

23 command in Zenica, that's with General Merdan, that the

24 order had never been issued, and, in fact, that it was

25 false information?

Page 7255

1 A. Yes, I checked that with General Merdan, who

2 at that time was the commander of the regional staff of

3 the Territorial Defence, and he told me that he was

4 asking for an urgent cessation of hostility without any

5 preconditions, and this is what I then transmitted.

6 Q. Did you then refuse to transmit the order to

7 the Territorial Defence to surrender, and later on

8 during that evening, while you were still at the

9 Workers' Centre, you saw the chief of police arriving,

10 Mr. Zlatan Civcija, who was accompanied by the person

11 whose name was Ivo Skocibusic, who was known as Suse,

12 and who was the chief of the HOS in Novi Travnik, and

13 they were themselves escorted by a group of HVO

14 soldiers; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that is exactly what happened. Zlatan

16 Civcija, as chief of police in Novi Travnik, came, and

17 with him was Ivo Skocibusic, also known as Suse, and I

18 heard them asking to see me in person. None of the

19 Croatian negotiators came to our aid, to protect us,

20 and they came and arrested us.

21 Q. Did they hit you at that point?

22 A. Yes, at the time, I was also hit. I was

23 kicked and hit with hands by soldiers who were there,

24 and they were led by this Suse. And also a knife was

25 placed under my throat, and they said, "This is now the

Page 7256

1 Ustasha authority. You have no more life, and we will

2 do the same to you as Chetniks are doing to Visegrad."

3 And they also said, "We will kill you with bullets, we

4 will hang you, and this will all happen to you now."

5 And I said, "This only happens once."

6 Q. After you were assaulted in that way, did you

7 speak with the HOS chief and some of the soldiers at

8 the Cafe Grand, whose owner was Marinko Marelja?

9 A. I don't know where the chief of police,

10 Civcija, disappeared, but Suse and a group of policemen

11 pushed me into a car. I don't know what make of a car,

12 but I know that there were five or six of them, and

13 they took me to the Grand Cafe, and while we were

14 driving, they made threats to me.

15 Then, when we came to the Grand Cafe, this

16 Suse brought me out of the car and pushed me into the

17 Grand Cafe. He hit me and said, "Get in, you pig."

18 And he hit me here [indicates], and I still suffer from

19 the consequences of this hit above the eye.

20 I know that there were a number of the

21 Croatian government there. Marinko Marelja, Civcija,

22 Anto Zlatic, who was there without portfolio, as it

23 were. So there were a number of people from the HVO

24 government, and I think I mentioned four.

25 Q. Is it true that while you were at the Grand

Page 7257

1 Cafe, one of the soldiers put his pistol into your

2 mouth and joked around with you?

3 A. Yes. When they brought me to the Grand Cafe,

4 I did not know what was going on. I know that one of

5 the soldiers who had a camouflage uniform -- he was

6 called Drazan; he was from Duvno or Tomislavgrad -- he

7 put a pistol to me and cursed me, and he said, "Where

8 are all the TO units? Where is Refik Lendo, the

9 commander?" I know that Civcija and Marelja said that

10 I had insisted on the legality of the BH government,

11 and they cynically said, "Why doesn't President

12 Izetbegovic help you now, and the presidents of the

13 BH?"

14 I stayed there for a while, in these

15 circumstances, and then Marinko Marelja took me to a

16 room which was on the premises of this cafe. It was a

17 storage room. I spent the night there, until 9.00 next

18 morning.

19 Q. Were you locked up in that room?

20 A. No. I could not leave that room. I was

21 locked in it.

22 Q. Is it true that during that same night of the

23 19th of June, 1992, another representative of the

24 Muslim delegation in Novi Travnik, Mr. Ragib Zukic, was

25 also assaulted by members of the HVO?

Page 7258

1 A. Yes, that is correct. I thought that this

2 person actually had expired that night from the force

3 of the blows that he received. He spent the night on

4 the floor, but I saw him several days later. He was

5 all black and blue. When he was on the floor, he was

6 gurgling, and I thought that this was the -- the

7 gurgling that comes at the time when somebody is

8 dying.

9 Q. On the day we're speaking about, that is, the

10 19th of June, the individual whose name was Ivo

11 Skocibusic, the head of the HOS, was wearing a black

12 uniform and the others were wearing camouflage

13 uniforms; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that is true. I know that Skocibusic

15 was wearing a black uniform all the time.

16 Q. Were you released the next morning,

17 Witness P, and then taken to the Kasapovici sector,

18 that is, the regional HVO commander, Mr. Filip

19 Filipovic, who was the one who took you there; is that

20 correct, to Kasapovici?

21 A. Yes, a man by the name of Filip Filipovic

22 took me there, and I don't know what post he held at

23 the time. He first took me to my parents', and then he

24 took me to the village of Kasapovici.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, if you're

Page 7259

1 moving on now to a different topic, that might be a

2 convenient time.

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now for a quarter

6 of an hour.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.55

8 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness P, I would like us to go back to the

11 conflict of June 1992. Is it true that during that

12 conflict, about ten soldiers from Busovaca were

13 captured by the TO defence forces near the firemen's

14 station in Novi Travnik and you were able to see them?

15 A. Yes. That is correct. I personally saw

16 them.

17 Q. Could you tell us what the circumstances of

18 your meeting with those soldiers was and where it took

19 place?

20 A. I met them in the afternoon in the village of

21 Trenica, after a joint effort on the part of Croats and

22 the Bosniak Muslims to calm down the passions. I came

23 to talk to them and they then told me that they had

24 been sent from Busovaca to the Novi Travnik area.

25 Q. Did you yourself speak with those soldiers?

Page 7260

1 A. Yes. I personally talked to them, and they

2 also said that they were sent by Dario Kordic to Novi

3 Travnik, and this is why they were there. They were

4 all scared. Then they were released. They were kept

5 in some kind of general store or maybe it was some kind

6 of a cultural centre in that village, I don't know

7 exactly.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness P, on several occasions

9 you spoke about an individual whose name is Marinko

10 Marelja, and you said that he was the owner of the

11 Grand cafe where you were held for a night, and that he

12 had responsibilities in the municipality where he was

13 in charge of propaganda and information within the new

14 municipality which had been set up in May, that is, the

15 19th of May, 1992; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. That is correct. He was in charge of

17 information and propaganda, and he was a deputy,

18 elected in the elections of 1990. Until then he was

19 the president of a commission for appointments in the

20 municipality at the local level.

21 Q. Was he an active member of the HDZ party?

22 A. Yes. From what I know, he was an active

23 member of the HDZ party.

24 Q. Witness P, I'm going to show you a document.

25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I can tell

Page 7261

1 the Trial Chamber that this document was previously

2 admitted already. It is Z223.

3 Q. Could you tell us, Witness P, after you've

4 looked at the first page, this is a document which is

5 dated 22 September, 1992, which was drafted in Busovaca

6 at the Central Bosnia headquarters, and which deals

7 with excerpts from the meetings of various Croat

8 representatives in Central Bosnia.

9 On the first page is a list of those people

10 who participated in the meeting. Do you see the page

11 I'm speaking about?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Could you tell us, under the section dealing

14 with the municipality of Novi Travnik, who those

15 individuals were who represented the city?

16 A. I see Marinko Marelja, vice-president of the

17 Novi Travnik HVO. So this was some kind of a new

18 appointment following the one in May of 1992. The

19 president of the HVO was Jozo Sekic and Marinko was his

20 deputy, and this is how he is titled here. There was

21 also Jozo Sekic, who was the president of the HVO of

22 Travnik.

23 Q. In the B/C/S version of the document that you

24 have, the name "Jozo Sekic" appears. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, I see him there. He's listed as the

Page 7262

1 president of the HVO Novi Travnik, and Marinko Marelja

2 vice-president.

3 Q. The name was left out on the English

4 document. So my question is: The person that you

5 spoke to us about, Marinko Marelja, was that the same

6 person who appears as the representative of the Novi

7 Travnik municipality on the document that you are

8 looking at?

9 A. Yes. That is the only person by that name,

10 Marinko Marelja, in Novi Travnik.

11 Q. Could you review the second page of the

12 document, Witness P? The first paragraph of page 2

13 deals with the municipality of Novi Travnik. Could you

14 read the passage quickly and make a few comments to us

15 about the report that was made about the events or the

16 situation in the municipality of Novi Travnik?

17 A. "It is estimated that the HVO hold about

18 70 per cent authority while the Muslims hold about 30

19 per cent. The question of special purposes production

20 has to be urgently resolved. After an earlier

21 confrontation with the Muslims the situation is tense

22 but fairly peaceful. Recently the Croats have moved

23 into about 400 apartments which were abandoned by Serbs

24 without any coercion by the Croats but out of fear of

25 Muslims."

Page 7263

1 Now let me comment on this first section, if

2 I may, right away.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, before we do

4 that, what is the relevance of this? We have heard

5 evidence about Novi Travnik, quite extensive evidence

6 about the conflict there.

7 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I was

8 hoping that the witness, who had certain

9 responsibilities in that municipality, could give us

10 his opinion, but if you consider that it's not

11 necessary, we can just move on.

12 JUDGE MAY: Let's go on to the events that

13 you deal with on pages 6 and 7 of the summary.

14 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness P, in July 1992 you were a

16 participant -- well, leave aside the other document.

17 We're going to speak about other things.

18 In July 1992, you participated in other

19 meetings with the HDZ and HVO representatives in Novi

20 Travnik, who again said to you that they wanted the

21 Muslims in the municipality to be subordinate to the

22 Herceg-Bosna authorities; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. That is correct. We refused this and

24 requested to see what type of a model of a joint life

25 we would be offered, but we asked that a platform of

Page 7264

1 organisation be presented to us. This was the HZ-HB's

2 own proposal, and we wanted to see what they had to

3 offer but we never did. We didn't receive anything.

4 Q. I'm going to show you a document dated 7th of

5 July, 1992. Please look at it and tell us whether the

6 document relates to the events that you are speaking

7 about. That is Z165-1, 165-1. That is a new

8 document.

9 A. This is the document.

10 Q. You signed an agreement with Mr. Jozo Sekic,

11 who had asked you to make proposals about how the HVO

12 conceived of this joint authority.

13 A. Not an agreement. This was a public

14 notification and that a platform would be proffered,

15 prepared in accordance with the concept of the HZ-HB,

16 and that is what I have already stated.

17 Q. So you never reached an agreement with the

18 HDZ-HVO authorities; is that correct?

19 A. No. We received this prepared platform which

20 contained the model of the administrative structure in

21 accordance with the HZ-HB concepts. Of course, we

22 turned it down. We wanted something that was not

23 forced upon us by the other ethnic group. We were

24 looking for a compromise.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 7265

1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I would

2 like to say, in passing, that this document, which has

3 the witness's name, should also be covered by

4 protective measures.

5 Q. Moving forward a little bit, in August of

6 1992 you were able to participate in celebrations, in a

7 rally, that was organised by the Croats and which took

8 place in front of the municipal building, where you saw

9 many soldiers who had come to take an oath in front of

10 the building.

11 A. Yes, that is how it was.

12 Q. The accused Dario Kordic was present during

13 the rally. You saw him in a camouflage uniform and he

14 made a speech; is that right?

15 A. Yes. That is correct. I saw him, and met

16 him, and we exchanged greetings, and later on we sat at

17 the hotel in Novi Travnik.

18 Q. Is it true that during the speech the accused

19 mentioned both the restructuring of the HVO and also

20 stated that Novi Travnik would soon be Croatian?

21 A. Yes, precisely. Reference was made to the

22 development of the HVO and to the fact that Novi

23 Travnik would soon be taken by the Croats and that it

24 would be a Croatian town.

25 Q. Do you remember whether on that day the

Page 7266

1 accused Dario Kordic was escorted by a specific group

2 of soldiers?

3 A. I don't know how he came to Novi Travnik,

4 Dario Kordic, but I know that at this ceremony, when

5 Croatian soldiers were taking an oath in front of the

6 municipality building in Novi Travnik, but I know that

7 a unit was present, like a honorary escort, which I

8 was told was a unit of Jokers from Busovaca, that they

9 were Dario's unit. I know that those young men

10 reminded me of the young men I saw in Trenica, in the

11 fire station, who were arrested there. They were all

12 rather short and wearing military uniform.

13 Q. During the rally in Novi Travnik in August,

14 there was also Marinko Marelja, whom we spoke about

15 previously; Tihomir Blaskic; and the individual whose

16 name was Ivo Skocibusic, the man who had hit you a

17 little while earlier; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, exactly. And that man wanted to say

19 hello to me. I refused, because I wanted at least an

20 apology from him for what he had done to me

21 previously.

22 Q. This Ivo Skocibusic, also known as Suse, did

23 he also make a speech after Dario Kordic on that day?

24 A. I don't know the exact order, but I know that

25 Dario Kordic and Suse held speeches.

Page 7267

1 Q. I would like to show you a document,

2 Witness P, simply in order to try and situate the date

3 that you're speaking to us about. This is a new

4 document, reference Z191-1.

5 Witness P, the document is dated 18th of

6 August, 1992. It comes from Colonel Blaskic, and it

7 deals with ceremonies of swearing in.

8 In paragraph 2, under (b), it says that the

9 ceremony would take place in Novi Travnik on the 23rd

10 of August, 1992. Is the date the one which corresponds

11 with the facts that you're speaking to us about?

12 A. I think that was the date that corresponds to

13 the event I was referring to.

14 Q. After the ceremony, Witness P, is it true

15 that the soldiers who had participated spread out in

16 the city and started to shoot?

17 A. Yes, that is what they did. The soldiers

18 were shooting from different kinds of weapons in town,

19 and the smell of gunpowder could be felt throughout the

20 town, gunpowder and smoke.

21 Q. In October 1992, that is, the 19th of

22 October, 1992 to be exact, you were not in Novi Travnik

23 when the second conflict broke out; is that correct?

24 A. No, it was Friday, the 16th of October, when

25 I went to Split from Zagreb, and I was away on that

Page 7268

1 trip until -- the 18th was Sunday, 19th Monday. At

2 half past 3.00, I left Split towards Novi Travnik.

3 Q. In order to be able to leave the city of Novi

4 Travnik and to travel to Croatia, you had to receive a

5 special permit from the HVO, didn't you?

6 A. Certainly. It was not possible to leave

7 without that pass, and I had to get that pass from

8 Marinko Marelja. I received it after a great deal of

9 persuasion. And that applied to all Bosniaks; I think

10 it was much easier for Croats. We all had to have

11 those passes in order to able to move about.

12 Q. When you came back to Novi Travnik after your

13 trip, you mentioned to those people who were there in

14 the conflict about what had happened. Did people speak

15 to you during those conversations about the role the

16 accused Dario Kordic allegedly played during that

17 second conflict?

18 MR. STEIN: Excuse me, I object, Your

19 Honour. That would be maybe hearsay -- bad word--

20 unreliable, because we don't know the source of the

21 people, the context, and their basis for making these

22 claims.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, if you would

24 like to lay the foundation, please.

25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

Page 7269

1 Q. Witness P, did you see a document,

2 specifically a video document, in which the accused

3 appeared during the conflict?

4 A. I said that on the 18th, I was in Zagreb, and

5 on the 24th, on the Saturday, I reached Novi Travnik.

6 I saw what had happened, but I also received a

7 videocassette on which I saw Dario Kordic at the hotel

8 in Novi Travnik requesting the immediate arrest of

9 Refik Lendo, for him to be tried, and he was the

10 commander in Novi Travnik at the time.

11 Q. During the conflict in October, did you

12 notice that the Muslims in the city had been killed,

13 that property belonging to Muslims had been destroyed

14 by soldiers of the Novi Travnik municipality, but also

15 by soldiers who came from outside that municipality?

16 A. Yes. After entering the town, I passed

17 through the town and was able to see burnt and

18 destroyed property, houses, businesses, apartments, of

19 Bosniaks, Muslims. Among others, I saw some of my

20 relatives' houses; they had been killed. And

21 everything looked like something that consisted of

22 ashes alone. All the houses had been burnt down --

23 that is, those under Croatian control. And I heard

24 from many people who were there at the time that there

25 were units present from all parts of Central Bosnia,

Page 7270

1 Croatian units. From my relative's business premises,

2 everything was taken away on a truck, and it was taken

3 to Busovaca, and he was killed on the spot.

4 Q. Witness P, I'm going to show you a document

5 dated 5 November, 1992. This is a new document, and

6 it's reference Z268-A, and 268 for the version in

7 B/C/S.

8 Witness P, the document is another one which

9 comes from Colonel Blaskic. In the first part -- that

10 is, the first paragraph of the document -- there is an

11 order which is given to the HVO authorities in Novi

12 Travnik that measures be taken so that houses belonging

13 to well-known individual Muslims no longer be set on

14 fire.

15 A. This document is certainly a good one, if

16 only it had been issued before the conflict in

17 October. But to be issued after that is rather ironic,

18 after everything that could be destroyed had been

19 destroyed.

20 Q. Witness P, as far as you know, were the

21 perpetrators of the murders that you spoke about, or

22 the robberies and destruction, were they punished by

23 the HVO authorities?

24 A. I'm not aware that any one of them was

25 arrested, punished, or convicted for what he had done.

Page 7271

1 Q. Witness P, in December 1992, you participated

2 in further negotiations with the HVO representatives.

3 The negotiations had as their objectives to calm down

4 the tensions within the municipality and possibly to

5 set up a unified military command; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, indeed. These were fresh efforts on our

7 part to try and do something that would be satisfactory

8 for both peoples, to set up some kind of an authority

9 that would be accountable to both, to set up civilian

10 structures and proper organisation of authority. That

11 is what we could do as far as our possibilities

12 allowed.

13 Q. Were there several meetings whose purpose was

14 to set up this organ that you've just spoken about, and

15 during the meetings, is it true that once again, the

16 individual named Marinko Marelja was the representative

17 of the Croatian authorities, the one who was the most

18 active?

19 A. Yes. Upon entering the municipality

20 building, or the office where I used to sit, there was

21 a man called Marinko Marelja who said, "I am now the

22 representative of the authorities. What can I do for

23 you?"

24 There were three of us. We sat down, talked

25 to him. I don't remember whether there was anyone with

Page 7272

1 him. Usually he would be alone, and negotiate by

2 himself, because that was his nature. I know that

3 Mr. Slobodan Praljak came in that period. I also know

4 that Tihomir Blaskic would be with him.

5 Q. Witness P, do you know where General Slobodan

6 Praljak came from?

7 A. According to what I know, Slobodan Praljak

8 had come from Croatia, and he was in the territory of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the areas of Travnik, Turbe, the

10 lines against the Serb aggressor at the time, so he was

11 touring those lines and carrying out other tasks that

12 he had. I know that I came across him there in Marinko

13 Marelja's office, both him and Tihomir Blaskic.

14 Q. This General Praljak, was he a general who

15 came from the Croatian army? Do we agree about that?

16 A. From Croatia. I later saw him on Croatian

17 television, and I think that he was Brigadier General

18 Slobodan Praljak. I know he wore a beard. He was tall

19 and well built.

20 Q. You again spoke about Marinko Marelja. Do

21 you know whether this Mr. Marinko Marelja had any kind

22 of friendly connections with the accused Dario Kordic?

23 A. Very frequently I sat with them in his cafe

24 called Grand. Sometimes -- we would always sit

25 together in the municipality building of Novi Travnik.

Page 7273

1 Q. Did you see them together on several

2 occasions in Novi Travnik?

3 A. Yes, certainly, I saw them together often.

4 We would have coffee together, all three of us. I

5 would be with them and with other people.

6 Q. Is it true that this Mr. Marinko Marelja

7 participated in the funding of Anto Valenta's book on

8 the partition of Bosnia and the transfer of

9 populations?

10 A. Marinko Marelja told me personally that he

11 participated in the financing of the book and in the

12 drafting of the book. In fact, it says in the book

13 that he was one of the persons who financed it.

14 I also heard in town that he was one of the

15 people who organised the departure of Serbs from Novi

16 Travnik via Busovaca and Kiseljak, two areas under Serb

17 control. That is what I heard. I don't have any

18 personal experience about it, but I heard a story that

19 a very large convoy of people were stopped at the

20 crossroads in front of Novi Travnik at

21 the Travnik/Sarajevo road --

22 JUDGE MAY: I think we can do without the

23 stories. We will try and concentrate on evidence.

24 Mr. Lopez-Terres, we must finish at 5.00. We

25 ought to get through the witness's evidence in chief

Page 7274

1 before then, so perhaps we could move on.

2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Very well,

3 Your Honour.

4 Q. During the first months of 1993, life was

5 very difficult for Muslims in Novi Travnik, Witness P.

6 There were two distinct areas in the city, one under

7 the control of the HVO and an area where the Muslims

8 lived, and at the time it was said that the Muslims

9 were beaten, they were thrown out of their homes, and

10 that there were also rapes of Muslim women; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, that was a period of divisions and

13 checkpoints in town. And throughout Central Bosnia,

14 Croats mostly controlled their areas whereas the

15 Bosniaks kept to their own areas. I know that it was

16 impossible for the Muslims, this whole period from the

17 New Year until March or April 1993. It was unbearable

18 for the Muslims. There was mistreatment, evictions,

19 persecution, killings, also in that period. I know by

20 name certain people who were killed in that period.

21 Q. During that period that we're speaking about,

22 the crimes that you have mentioned involved various

23 units. There was the local brigade, which was the

24 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, and there was another one

25 that came from the outside, made up of soldiers who

Page 7275

1 were members of the Bruno Busic Brigade; is that

2 correct?

3 A. In town at the time, there were very many

4 people from Herzegovina. They were known, the

5 Hercegovci, who came with their equipment, soldiers in

6 uniform, who belonged, as far as I know, to a brigade

7 called Bruno Busic. Then in Novi Travnik there was the

8 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, and as far as I can

9 recollect, the commander of the HVO in those days was

10 Mr. Mario Cerkez. I think I came across him at least

11 twice at meetings held in that period in an attempt to

12 prevent certain things from happening.

13 Q. Were you able to see that the soldiers who

14 had come from Herzegovina had as their main

15 responsibility terrorising the Muslim population?

16 A. Our entire people felt this, that these were

17 people who had come from there and who were terrorising

18 them. And anyway, this was accepted by both the

19 political and military leaders of Novi Travnik. For

20 instance, when the Herzegovinians were supposed to go

21 to a meeting held on the 13th of January, 1993, I know

22 that President Jozo Sekic said that the Herzegovinians

23 could not leave Novi Travnik because they hadn't

24 finished the job they had come to do.

25 Q. A final question, Witness P: During the

Page 7276

1 conversations and meetings that you had with the

2 representatives of the HVO of your municipality,

3 whether it was Mr. Cerkez or Mr. Marelja, did they tell

4 you whether they were obliged to speak with the accused

5 Dario Kordic during the negotiations?

6 A. I know that certain gentlemen said very

7 frequently that they didn't dare do anything without

8 their commander in Central Bosnia. In those days it

9 was Dario Kordic who held the key role in the area of

10 Central Bosnia. And very frequently the responsibility

11 would be shifted onto him, that they couldn't do

12 anything or were not allowed to do anything. That is

13 what they said. Whether that was so, I don't know.

14 That was the general impression.

15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have

16 finished with the direct examination, Mr. President. I

17 have no further questions.

18 JUDGE MAY: Witness P, you said then

19 " ... that certain gentlemen said very frequently that

20 they didn't dare do anything without their commander in

21 Central Bosnia."

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: I'm just going to make a note.

24 You then went on to say: "In those days it

25 was Dario Kordic who held the key role ... and very

Page 7277

1 frequently the responsibility would be shifted on to

2 him, that they couldn't do anything or were not allowed

3 to do anything. That is what they said."

4 A. Yes, those were the answers I was given very

5 often.

6 JUDGE MAY: When you say "certain gentlemen"

7 gave you those answers, can you tell us who it was or

8 what type of people or category of people were saying

9 this to you?

10 A. By way of an example, the president of the

11 municipality of the HDZ, Jozo Sekic; or somebody who

12 was a member of the HVO authorities, Anto Zlatunic; or

13 Zoran Matosevic, who was secretary for defence at the

14 time .... me.

15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll adjourn now.

16 Would you be back, please, Witness P, tomorrow at half

17 past 9.00 to conclude your evidence.

18 Would you remember not to speak to anybody

19 about your evidence until it's over and, of course,

20 don't let anyone speak to you about it. That includes

21 members of the Prosecution.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

23 4.57 p.m., to be reconvened on

24 Wednesday, the 22nd day of September,

25 1999 at 9.30 a.m.