Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7676

          1                 Tuesday, 28th September, 1999

          2                 [Open session]

          3                 [The accused entered court]

          4                 --- Upon commencing at 3.11 p.m.

          5            THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the

          6  Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

          7            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

          8            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

          9  Mr. President, I would like to ask for a private

         10  session, because the witness who is going to testify

         11  this afternoon has asked for protective measures, and a

         12  request to that effect has been submitted to you on the

         13  23rd of September.

         14            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Is there any objection?

         15  The application is for a pseudonym and --

         16            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Yes, and

         17  facial distortion.

         18            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] We have no

         19  objection, Your Honours, if it's a private session.

         20            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We'll make the

         21  order.

         22                 [Private session]

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 7677

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         10                 [The witness entered court]

         11                 [Open session]

         12            JUDGE MAY:  Sorry to keep you.  If you would

         13  like to take the declaration, please.

         14            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

         15  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

         16  truth.

         17                 WITNESS:  WITNESS Q

         18                 [Witness answered through interpreter]

         19            JUDGE MAY:  If you would like to take a

         20  seat.  Very well.

         21            The pseudonym is --

         22            THE REGISTRAR:  The pseudonym for this

         23  witness will be Witness Q.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.

         25            The legal officer, please.

Page 7678

          1                 [Trial Chamber confers]

          2            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

          3            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

          4  Mr. President, could we for a moment remain in private

          5  session when referring to questions which provide

          6  information on the identification of the witness?  That

          7  will be very brief.

          8            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

          9                 [Private session]

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted)

         16  (redacted)

         17  (redacted)

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 7679

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          8  (redacted)

          9                  [Open session]

         10            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

         11       Q.   Witness Q, while performing your duties in

         12  the police station of Novi Travnik, when you returned

         13  there, your superior was of Croat ethnicity, and his

         14  name was Zlatan Civcija?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   In the spring of 1992, you saw Mr. Zlatan

         17  Civcija wearing a camouflage uniform and HVO insignia

         18  and coming to the police station?

         19       A.   Yes, quite so, though this was not

         20  customary.  I think that he was the first among the

         21  policemen to start going to work, that is, coming to

         22  the police station in a camouflage uniform while

         23  everyone else wore blue uniforms of the civilian

         24  police.

         25       Q.   On the 19th of June, 1992, the police station

Page 7680

          1  where you were working, together with your Croatian

          2  colleagues, was attacked, as well as the headquarters

          3  of the Territorial Defence in Novi Travnik?

          4       A.   Yes, because the TO headquarters and the

          5  police station premises were actually in one and the

          6  same building.

          7       Q.   Following this attack by HVO forces, you and

          8  your colleagues of Muslim ethnicity left the station,

          9  where you were no longer allowed to work?

         10       A.   Yes.  We relocated to other premises,

         11  actually to the premises of the kindergarten, so we

         12  moved out of the so-called lower part of the city

         13  which, after all this, was under the control of the

         14  HVO.

         15       Q.   As of this first conflict which happened in

         16  June 1992, you saw, coming to the police station,

         17  Muslims from Novi Travnik who came regularly to

         18  complain either because they were robbed or exposed to

         19  violence by members of the HVO and the HOS; is that

         20  correct?

         21       A.   Yes.  People would come who had any kind of

         22  problems.  The most frequent complaints were incursions

         23  by men in uniform, belonging to the HVO and the HOS,

         24  into their apartments.  All they could do was complain,

         25  and these complaints of theirs were registered in the

Page 7681

          1  form of official reports in our police station at the

          2  time.

          3       Q.   This collection of complaints continued

          4  throughout the second half of 1992 and throughout 1993?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   I'm going to show you now some documents,

          7  Witness Q, to ask you to look at them and to comment on

          8  them.  The documents have reference number Z1963,1 and

          9  Z1963,12.  Do you have the document 1963,1 before you?

         10       A.   I do.

         11       Q.   This document is, indeed, a record written by

         12  you, is it not, on the 10th of June, 1993?

         13       A.   Yes, it is a -- if I may add, it is an

         14  official note compiled in connection with the expulsion

         15  of Muslims from the lower part of the town, that is,

         16  the part that was under the control of the HVO at the

         17  time.

         18            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I think

         19  there's no point in showing the document on the ELMO

         20  because it bears the name of the witness.

         21       Q.   I should now like to ask you to look through

         22  the other documents, Exhibit number 1963,12.  There are

         23  about 40 notes on offences drawn up by the Novi Travnik

         24  police station.

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 7682

          1       Q.   Have you been able to look through these

          2  documents quickly?  Do you recognise those documents as

          3  being issued by the police station that you belonged to

          4  at the time, the one that had to move after 19 June,

          5  1992?

          6       A.   Yes, I do recognise the documents.  They are

          7  mostly official notes compiled by officials of the

          8  police, police officers, on the basis of complaints by

          9  citizens, mostly having to do with their expulsion and

         10  their harassment by members of the HVO.  That was a way

         11  for us to document each of these events, of course,

         12  those that were reported to us, though I believe there

         13  were many more that were never reported to anyone.

         14       Q.   Some of these reports bear the signature of

         15  the investigator, such as, for example, a report signed

         16  by Mr. Enver Hodzic or by Mr. Semin Kalbic.  Were they

         17  colleagues from your police station?

         18       A.   Yes, these were colleagues.  Enver Hodzic

         19  worked in the criminal police of the Public Security

         20  Station in Novi Travnik, and Semin Kalbic also worked

         21  as a criminal technician at the time, though he also

         22  performed other police duties.

         23       Q.   Several of these reports do not bear any name

         24  of the person who drafted them but simply a wording --

         25  simply the words "Authorised Official" is indicated.

Page 7683

          1  Could you explain this to us, what it means?

          2       A.   Yes.  This was frequent because the relocated

          3  police station was virtually on the very front line, so

          4  many policemen, for this reason, did not sign these

          5  reports because one didn't know under whose control

          6  that same station might be the very next day, the

          7  police station.

          8            The other reason is that this kind of keeping

          9  records of a criminal offence or an act has the same

         10  validity with the judicial bodies.  What is important

         11  is the act itself and not the signature.

         12       Q.   In most of these reports, the perpetrators,

         13  whether they are robberies, forced expulsions, or

         14  harassment, are often described as being masked.  Could

         15  you explain that for us, please?

         16       A.   Yes.  In these official notes, it is stated,

         17  as was in fact the case, that perpetrators used to

         18  coexist with their neighbours, Bosniaks, so they could

         19  be readily recognised by the victims, to call them

         20  that.  On the other hand, the effect was greater on

         21  those victims, forcing them to leave their apartments.

         22       Q.   In one of these reports, appearing in the

         23  pile of documents submitted to you, dated the 28th of

         24  January, 1993, reference is made to a robbery carried

         25  out in the premises of Mr. Ragib Zukic.  It is a

Page 7684

          1  document on page 27 in the English version and 27 in

          2  the Bosniak version as well, Z1963.12, page 27.

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   It is stated in this report that Mr. Ragib

          5  Zukic had to swallow and drink detergent.  Was that a

          6  normal practice?  You didn't hear my question?

          7       A.   No, I didn't get the translation.

          8       Q.   Let me rephrase it.  In this note that you

          9  have in front of you, it is stated that the victim,

         10  Mr. Ragib Zukic, had to swallow detergent, that he was

         11  forced to do so on the part of persons who appeared

         12  there.  Was this something normal?  Did you have other

         13  complaints of this kind?

         14       A.   I personally do not recall any other cases of

         15  such abuse.  All I can say is that these notes are

         16  authentic, and I know Ragib Zukic personally.  He was

         17  once beaten up also as a member of a negotiating team;

         18  I think it was on the 19th of October, 1992.

         19       Q.   This gentleman, Mr. Ragib Zukic, that you are

         20  mentioning, he was a member of a Muslim commission that

         21  was negotiating with the HVO on the 19th of October,

         22  1992, at the Worker's Centre in Novi Travnik?

         23       A.   Yes, he was one of the members, and more or

         24  less, all the citizens of Novi Travnik know that with

         25  the president of the party, I think it was Salih

Page 7685

          1  Krnjic, that he was beaten up in the Worker's Centre in

          2  Novi Travnik.

          3       Q.   I should now like to ask you, before we

          4  finish with these documents, to look at the last pages

          5  of the pile that has been given to you, pages 37 to 40

          6  of this document.

          7            It appears, reading these notes on offences,

          8  that on four of these, there are certain anomalies

          9  regarding the dates.  The document is dated the 25th of

         10  January, and it says that the victim appeared on the

         11  26th, for instance.  On page 38, the document dated the

         12  23rd of January says that the facts, that is, the fire

         13  of the victim's house, occurred on the 20th of October,

         14  1993, which means much later.  Again, page 39, the

         15  report is dated the 25th of November, 1992, and it says

         16  that the event occurred on the 20th of January, 1992.

         17            Can you give us some explanations regarding

         18  these discrepancies with respect to the dates?

         19       A.   I think that this happened mostly due to

         20  errors made by the policeman writing the official

         21  reports.  We have to bear in mind the period when these

         22  reports were written, the position of the police

         23  station itself on the very front line which was a daily

         24  target of the HVO.  So it is quite possible that such

         25  mistakes can be made here and there, but I'm quite sure

Page 7686

          1  that the contents of all these notes correspond to the

          2  truth.

          3       Q.   If I understand you well, the discrepancies

          4  that we have referred to are purely of a formal nature

          5  due to the lack of concentration, which is

          6  understandable, on the part of the person drafting

          7  them.

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   We have finished with these documents,

         10  Mr. Witness, so, Mr. Usher, you can collect them.

         11  We've finished with this document, but there will be

         12  others to be shown to the witness.

         13            In the period we're talking about, that is,

         14  the end of 1992 and the first six months of 1993, did

         15  you have occasion to see on television the accused

         16  Dario Kordic?

         17       A.   I did, yes, on several occasions.  I was able

         18  to see him on television and hear various statements

         19  that he made, which sounded rather like propaganda to

         20  the effect that parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina inhabited

         21  by Croats were Croatia, they were Croatia and will

         22  remain Croatia, or words to that effect, and that is

         23  how I remember his public statements.

         24       Q.   Could you recall, for the benefit of Their

         25  Honours, the words spoken by the accused, as you have

Page 7687

          1  just said?

          2       A.   I can -- it is difficult for me to recall any

          3  further detail apart from what I have already said.  I

          4  remember that he often wore a camouflage uniform with

          5  HVO patches.  I never met him personally, however.

          6       Q.   Did he say on television that the Croatian

          7  Community --

          8            JUDGE MAY:  No.  Let the witness give the

          9  evidence, please.

         10            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Very

         11  well.

         12       Q.   Did he speak about the Croatian Community of

         13  Herceg-Bosna during these speeches on television?

         14       A.   Yes, he did.  He spoke about the Croatian

         15  Community of Herceg-Bosna.

         16       Q.   Do you remember what he said with reference

         17  to that Croatian Community?

         18       A.   I do not.

         19       Q.   Thank you.  You said that you did not know

         20  Mr. Dario Kordic personally.  Did you know the accused

         21  Mario Cerkez?

         22       A.   No.  I do not know them, because as I have

         23  already said, I came to Bosnia just before the outbreak

         24  of the war, so that I don't know many of the

         25  inhabitants.

Page 7688

          1  (redacted)

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          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted)

         16  (redacted)

         17  (redacted)

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22  (redacted) with

         23  a reference number Z1963,7.  Do you see that document?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   You appear on the right-hand side of this

Page 7689

          1  document, at the bottom?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7       A.   No, I was never a member of the army of

          8  Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This must be a mistake in the

          9  drafting.  I think this was a uniform form of the HVO

         10  of Novi Travnik, of the commission for exchange,

         11  because at the bottom, where it says that the dead

         12  bodies of civilians were received, I think it would be

         13  more correct to say "-" rather than -- it should be "/"

         14  rather than "-" after it says, "HVO Members -

         15  Civilians."

         16       Q.   So this title of being a member of the BH

         17  army was given to you by mistake by the HVO?

         18       A.   They could have put down whatever they

         19  wanted.

         20       Q.   We're going to talk about this exchange of

         21  prisoners and bodies.  These exchanges most frequently

         22  took place in dangerous places and very close to the

         23  front line, didn't they?

         24       A.   Yes, that was most frequently the case.  It

         25  was on the line of separation mostly and close to a

Page 7690

          1  place called Trenica, which is close to the town of

          2  Novi Travnik.

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14       A.   Lazine.

         15       Q.   I should now like to show you a document with

         16  reference number 1963,3.

         17       A.   Yes.

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22       Q.   It is specified in this document that the

         23  soldiers whose bodies were exchanged were mutilated and

         24  tortured.  Can you give us some more details regarding

         25  the condition of these bodies of those soldiers?

Page 7691

          1       A.   As far as these soldiers are concerned, I

          2  know that they were captured on the 29th of June when

          3  the HVO attacked the village of Lazine.  As usual, we

          4  negotiated the exchange for these bodies.  At first, we

          5  had information that they had been captured alive, and

          6  this surprised us a little, and we were surprised when

          7  we were given them as dead during the exchange.

          8            The exchange was carried out close to the

          9  locality of Trenica in the Novi Travnik municipality.

         10  As on previous occasions when there were exchanges, the

         11  immediate family would usually identify the bodies

         12  being exchanged, and a doctor found on the spot.  In

         13  this case, it was Dr. Suvad Grizic, who was also the

         14  coroner.

         15            I personally did not look at the bodies being

         16  exchanged because it was far from a pleasant sight,

         17  because the stench was terrible, and also the reactions

         18  of family members was terribly moving.  If UNPROFOR

         19  vehicles were used for transportation, I had to go back

         20  to town quickly.

         21            In this case, the coroner, Grizic, gave me a

         22  detailed description of the condition of the exchanged

         23  bodies, Muhamed Sahinovic, Hajdar Mujic, Enver

         24  Omeragic, and Besim Omeragic, as is stated in this

         25  report.

Page 7692

          1            I remember that according to what Muhamed

          2  Sahinovic's brother told me, that is, Bakir Sahinovic,

          3  the bodies were in some kind of nylon and they were

          4  wet, and he had the impression that they had been

          5  washed, the bodies had been washed, before being

          6  exchanged.  Later on, when Bakir transported his

          7  brother Muhamed from the nylon to the grave, he noticed

          8  that his underwear was red, soaked with blood, and that

          9  a part was missing near the sex organ.  In fact, half

         10  of it had been cut off.  That is what made me remember

         11  this particular exchange.

         12       Q.   I should now like to show you another

         13  document, that is, document 1963,11.

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Did you get information from a

         16  Mr. Ibrisimbegovic about a detention camp that was in

         17  the Stojkovici region; is that correct?

         18       A.   Yes.  This is my own official note, and it

         19  was compiled after the talk with Safet Ibrisimbegovic

         20  who was at the time imprisoned in the camp at

         21  Stojkovici.  This is one of the ways, as I have already

         22  said, of how we documented certain reports pertaining

         23  to the events that had taken place.

         24       Q.   According to the information which you

         25  received from that Mr. Ibrisimbegovic, the soldiers

Page 7693

          1  whose bodies were given back on the 8th of July, 1993,

          2  could they have been kept in that camp?

          3       A.   In view of the fact that he spent from the

          4  13th to the 19th of July in the camp, then there is

          5  great probability that this could have happened because

          6  they were taken prisoner on the 29th of June.

          7       Q.   Excuse me.  I didn't quite understand.  This

          8  Mr. Ibrisimbegovic was detained, according to the

          9  report, on the 5th of July at least and on the 18th of

         10  July.  On the 5th of July, he was in that camp; do we

         11  agree on that?

         12       A.   It says that he was there from the 13th of

         13  June up until the 19th of July, and this is what he

         14  stated.

         15       Q.   I believe that there is a slight mistake in

         16  the English interpretation.  It says that he was

         17  detained from the 13th to the 19th of July in the camp,

         18  whereas, in fact, it was the 13th of June to the 19th

         19  of July.

         20       A.   This is the original official note, and I

         21  think that it states in precise terms the time in which

         22  he -- the time he spent there, and I should like to say

         23  that this was his statement taken as an official note.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  I think we can read the note.  We

         25  don't need to go through it.  Thank you.

Page 7694

          1            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

          2       Q.   I would like us now to speak about another

          3  fact which occurred a little bit later, that is, the

          4  events that took place in October of 1993.

          5            Do you remember that at that time, three

          6  soldiers of the Novi Travnik Brigade, of the 308th BH

          7  Army Brigade, were forced to walk toward their own

          8  front line by HVO soldiers, whereas they had been

          9  attached to mines.

         10       A.   Yes, I remember that event.  It took place on

         11  the 3rd -- I think it was the 3rd of October, yes --

         12  that five of them were taken prisoner by the HVO during

         13  the HVO attack on the village of Isakovici in Novi

         14  Travnik, and two days after that, that is to say, on

         15  the 5th of October, three of them were forced to carry

         16  mines, explosive devices, mortars on their backs and to

         17  move towards the positions of the BH army.

         18            I remember that when they reached the

         19  vicinity of this position, the mines, the explosive

         20  devices were activated, and they were on their backs.

         21  Then the soldiers of the army succeeded in getting the

         22  remains of Enes Hajric, whereas the remains of

         23  Muslimovic and Mujak, the other two men, they were not

         24  able to gather up the remains, so that their bodily

         25  remains stayed on no man's land for about 40 days.

Page 7695

          1       Q.   Did you yourself participate in the

          2  operations which allowed the remains of the two

          3  soldiers to be collected?

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7       Q.   Were you escorted by a British officer whose

          8  name was Yorke?

          9       A.   Yes.  On the occasion, I was greatly helped

         10  by Captain Yorke who did his utmost to help pull out

         11  the bodily remains of those individuals with the

         12  Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, the HVO, so that we did

         13  succeed on that day in doing so; I think it was the

         14  15th of November.  We succeeded in recuperating the

         15  bodily remains of these people.  Great efforts were

         16  invested to do so.

         17            It was already growing dark, it had already

         18  grown dark, and the captain did not move about in his

         19  vehicle at dark, but nonetheless --

         20       Q.   It isn't necessary to give us those details,

         21  Witness Q.  Thank you.

         22            I'm going to give you a document which was

         23  drafted by an officer of the British Battalion whose

         24  name was Yorke, that is, document 1963,10.  This is a

         25  document in English.

Page 7696

          1            I'm going to read out a passage from the

          2  document, and it says that Captain Yorke spoke to an

          3  individual who was responsible for exchanges, the name

          4  given is your own, and then on the second page, it says

          5  what observations were made by that officer,

          6  particularly the fact that near the remains of the

          7  bodies cables were found which led directly to the HVO

          8  lines.

          9            As far as you know, does this report match

         10  the facts that we're speaking about?

         11       A.   As far as my personal participation in all

         12  this is concerned, I said that I was not personally on

         13  the spot when the bodies -- that is to say, at Begino

         14  Brdo when the bodies were dismembered.  Captain Yorke

         15  and a journalist of the BH army, Enes Begic was his

         16  name -- I came to a place called Isakovici, I got there

         17  in Captain Yorke's Land Rover, and that's where I

         18  waited for them -- and the two of them went to collect

         19  the remains which they then brought back to the

         20  building, the secondary school building in the upper

         21  part of town, and that is when Enes Begic made a

         22  videotape of the bodily remains.

         23       Q.   In the report, it says that you were a

         24  military policeman.  What would you have to say about

         25  that characterisation?

Page 7697

          1       A.   No.  No, that's not true.  I think that there

          2  has been an error.  As I said previously, I was never a

          3  member of the BH army.  I was always a member of the

          4  Public Security Station, that is to say, the civilian

          5  police station.  Perhaps Captain Yorke made a mistake

          6  because of the clothing that I wore most frequently

          7  which was a camouflage uniform, because at the time, it

          8  was the most apt thing to wear.

          9       Q.   We're going to speak about other matters now

         10  which have to do with the building that was known as

         11  Stari Soliter.

         12            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Lopez-Terres, let me

         13  interrupt you to say this, if it assists:  We have

         14  evidence about the attack on Stari Soliter, which was,

         15  as I recollect, uncontradicted.  So you can take it

         16  fairly quickly until we get to the witness's own part.

         17            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] As far as

         18  I know, Mr. President, only one witness mentioned this,

         19  that was on the 16th of April of this year, that is,

         20  Witness C.

         21            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, that's what I mean.  We

         22  don't need to hear it all again.

         23            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Therefore,

         24  in order to expedite matters, I would like to show

         25  several other documents which the witness drafted and

Page 7698

          1  which have to do with what happened in Stari Soliter.

          2       Q.   Were you yourself involved in the relations

          3  with the residents of that building in Novi Travnik

          4  between the 9th of June, 1993 and the 17th of

          5  September, 1993?

          6       A.   Yes, I was directly involved in the

          7  negotiations concerning the release of those

          8  individuals from the building, and I took certain

          9  steps, made certain efforts in that respect.

         10       Q.   As regards the living conditions of those

         11  people during the three months when they were in that

         12  building, they were very difficult; is that correct?

         13       A.   Yes, they were very difficult.  For all

         14  practical purposes, the building was exposed to daily

         15  fire of the members of the HVO.  Apart from that, it

         16  was impossible to get food because there was only one

         17  entrance to the building, and so from that side, they

         18  were in fact -- they were in fact prisoners, just for

         19  having been in their own apartments when it started.

         20  It was the children that suffered in particular.  The

         21  youngest child was only 11 months old, a baby.

         22       Q.   In the beginning, there were 57 people in

         23  that building; is that correct?

         24       A.   Yes, at the beginning, there were 57 people,

         25  right up until the 1st of July.  On the 1st of July,

Page 7699

          1  when the attack was launched by the members of the HVO

          2  and the HV, their attack on the building, Zijad Muslic,

          3  a resident, was wounded and so was a member of the

          4  Croatian army, Marko Suhreta, so that we had to

          5  evacuate them.  We were allowed, probably by the HVO,

          6  to evacuate these people because Marko Suhreta was

          7  wounded, so that there were only 56 residents in the

          8  building after that.

          9       Q.   Could you have a quick look at the document

         10  that I'm going to show you?  First, 1963,4 and 1963,5.

         11       A.   Yes, it is -- they are reports in fact which

         12  I submitted to the war presidency of the municipality

         13  of Novi Travnik relating to the problems of the Stari

         14  Soliter building, and they were in fact my efforts to

         15  find a solution to the problem, to stop the suffering

         16  of the people.

         17       Q.   I'm now going to show you 1963,6, which is

         18  dated 1 August, 1993.

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Were you the author of this document as well?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   It deals with the delivery of food after a

         23  long period of deprivation for the residents of the

         24  building.

         25       A.   Yes, that's right.  This is a report which

Page 7700

          1  states that after a series of negotiations with the

          2  Croatian side, "... we succeeded on the 1st of August,

          3  through UNPROFOR mediation, to bring food to the Stari

          4  Soliter building ..." because the situation was getting

          5  worse.

          6       Q.   I would like to show you a document which is

          7  dated 3 July, with the reference number 1963,2.

          8            You already mentioned some of these facts,

          9  but particularly the presence of a soldier of the

         10  Croatian army -- I'm saying "the Croatian army," that

         11  is, from the Republic of Croatia -- who was wounded in

         12  the Stari Soliter building at the beginning of July

         13  1993 in Novi Travnik.

         14       A.   Yes, that's correct.  The soldier was a

         15  soldier of the Croatian army, because at the time we

         16  found an ID on him which stated that he was a member of

         17  that particular army.  So he was not a member of the

         18  HVO but of the HV, as we called it.

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 7701

          1       A.   Yes.  That was a request made by the Croatian

          2  side, to allow the civilians from the building to be

          3  freed on the condition that all the Croats living in

          4  the villages mentioned should cross over to the lower

          5  part of town, that is to say, the part of town that was

          6  under HVO control.

          7            However, the Bosnian side did not agree to

          8  that at the beginning, because in actual fact this

          9  would have meant ethnic cleansing of the area, that on

         10  the one hand, and on the other, a certain number of

         11  Croats did not wish to be exchanged, and it was very

         12  difficult for us to convince the HVO commission that

         13  these people did not wish to be exchanged, quite

         14  simply.

         15       Q.   Were you yourself in a position where you

         16  were to meet those people and to hear what they had to

         17  say?  I would now like to show you documents which

         18  refer to what we're speaking about.  These are

         19  documents 1963,8 and 1963,9.

         20       A.   Yes, that's right.  1963,8, this is a

         21  statement by which the signatory claims that he does

         22  not wish to be exchanged, and he says that -- and I did

         23  this at the request of the HVO commission, because they

         24  didn't believe me that a certain number of individuals

         25  quite simply did not wish to be exchanged, especially

Page 7702

          1  the elderly population.

          2            This can also be seen in the second

          3  document.  It is a list of individuals who stated that

          4  they did not wish to be exchanged, the offer or

          5  principle, and I personally contacted many of them.  I

          6  remember it well.  I remember Mate Ljubas from the

          7  village of Torine who did not wish to be exchanged.

          8       Q.   In the end, after the 17th of September, the

          9  exchange took place; is that correct?

         10       A.   Yes, that's correct.

         11       Q.   During those exchanges and discussions with

         12  representatives of the HVO, did they lead you to

         13  understanding that they had received instructions in

         14  order to carry out the exchange?

         15       A.   Yes, that's right.  Yes.  For their part,

         16  Josip Udovicic was the representative, and the exchange

         17  took place in town up at the line.

         18            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

         19  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

         20            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.

         21            Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

         22            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         23  Your Honour.

         24            Mr. Q, let me introduce myself.  My name is

         25  Mitko Naumovski, a lawyer from Zagreb, and I am one of

Page 7703

          1  the Defence counsel for Mr. Dario Kordic.

          2            In view of the fact that we sometimes have

          3  problems with the interpretations, you and I can

          4  understand each other as soon as we say something, but

          5  please wait for the interpretation before you answer my

          6  question.  Thank you.

          7                 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

          8       Q.   Witness Q, as far as I was able to gather,

          9  you have given a statement to the investigators of this

         10  Tribunal.

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Did you give a statement and discuss this

         13  question with the state committee for the investigation

         14  of war crimes attached to the presidency of

         15  Bosnia-Herzegovina?

         16       A.   No.

         17       Q.   Did you make a statement to the so-called

         18  Agency for Investigation Documentation, AID?

         19       A.   No.

         20       Q.   Mr. Q, as a policeman, you trained in the

         21  Republic of Croatia, did you not?

         22       A.   Yes, among other things in Croatia as well.

         23       Q.   If I understood you correctly, you worked as

         24  a member of the Ministry of Defence in Sibenik until

         25  1991.

Page 7704

          1       A.   No, that's a mistake.  No, that's not true.

          2  I was never a member of the Defence ministry.

          3       Q.   I mean the Internal Affairs ministry.

          4       A.   Yes, the Internal Affairs ministry, that's

          5  correct.

          6       Q.   Perhaps I misspoke.  I meant the Ministry of

          7  Internal Affairs.

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   In 1991, you therefore came to work as a

         10  policeman in Novi Travnik, did you not?

         11       A.   That's correct.

         12       Q.   Your family stayed on to live in the Republic

         13  of Croatia?

         14       A.   No, they came with me.

         15       Q.   Did they live with you throughout in Novi

         16  Travnik?

         17       A.   Yes, that's right, all the time.

         18       Q.   Thank you.  You spoke about the first

         19  conflict that occurred on the 19th of June, 1992.

         20  Their Honours have already had occasion to hear about

         21  it.  Just one more question about it.

         22            Do you know that prior to the 19th of June

         23  was an incident that occurred on the 18th of June,

         24  1992?

         25       A.   I'm not aware of that.

Page 7705

          1       Q.   So you know nothing about the incident that

          2  occurred on the 18th of June?

          3       A.   No.  I know that the overall situation was

          4  very tense.  I am unable, however, to pinpoint a

          5  particular incident.

          6       Q.   But if you don't know the details, I won't go

          7  into that.  But let us clarify for the record, in the

          8  same building was both the Novi Travnik police station

          9  and the command of the Territorial Defence, weren't

         10  they?

         11       A.   Yes.  It was one and the same building.

         12       Q.   Tell us, at the time of the second conflict,

         13  you were not in Novi Travnik?

         14       A.   I was within the territory of Novi Travnik

         15  municipality but not in the town itself.

         16       Q.   You were in the village of Zagrlje, weren't

         17  you?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   But at the beginning of October 1992, you

         20  were not in the territory of Novi Travnik municipality

         21  at all, were you?

         22       A.   Immediately before the conflict, I was in

         23  Croatia with my family.  I came on the 18th of October

         24  from Croatia.

         25       Q.   Let us be very precise.  You went to the

Page 7706

          1  Republic of Croatia with your family?

          2       A.   Yes, exactly so.

          3       Q.   I'm asking you because in your statement for

          4  the investigators, you stated that you were visiting

          5  family members in the Republic of Croatia.

          6       A.   Yes, my wife's family.

          7       Q.   So the wife's family live in Croatia and not

          8  your wife and children?

          9       A.   My wife's family is living in Croatia.

         10       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  In that case, I will

         11  not ask you much about the second statement, as you

         12  were not in the town itself.  But as you were in

         13  Zagrlje, if I understand correctly, which is relatively

         14  close to Opara, about some 15 kilometres away, my

         15  question is would you agree with me that the Muslims in

         16  this village -- in Zagrlje and Opara expelled the Serbs

         17  on the 27th of August, 1993, just before you got

         18  there?

         19       A.   I don't know which village you're referring

         20  to.

         21       Q.   I'm talking about the Serbs who lived there.

         22       A.   I said that I came from Croatia in 1991.

         23       Q.   Yes, but I'm asking you about August 1992.

         24  At that time, you were working as a policeman in Novi

         25  Travnik?

Page 7707

          1       A.   I don't understand your question.

          2       Q.   Do you know or would you agree with me that

          3  on the 27th of August, 1992, the Muslims expelled the

          4  Serbs from Zagrlje and Opara?

          5       A.   I do not agree with that statement.  I don't

          6  know that the Serbs were expelled.  Those who had lived

          7  there abandoned those places before the conflict,

          8  abandoned the area.

          9       Q.   Before which conflict?

         10       A.   Before the conflict between the army and the

         11  HVO.

         12       Q.   Which conflict are you referring to, June

         13  1992, the first incident?

         14       A.   I'm thinking of the second incident, October

         15  1992.

         16       Q.   Mentioning these conflicts, could you tell us

         17  with precision when the front line was established in

         18  the town of Novi Travnik?

         19       A.   The front line was established after -- I

         20  think it was after the second conflict, after October

         21  1992.

         22       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

         23            Tell us, please, in a few words, about your

         24  work as a policeman.  Until the 19th of June, 1992, you

         25  worked in one police station, and after that date, the

Page 7708

          1  police separated, if we can call it that?

          2       A.   We were expelled from that police station.

          3       Q.   But I would put it differently.  You left

          4  that station yourselves because you didn't want to work

          5  there; nobody forced you out?

          6       A.   In my view, that is a leading question and, I

          7  think, unacceptable.  We left the station after we had

          8  been attacked with arms, with rifles.

          9       Q.   We were speaking about the building and the

         10  conflict linked to that building, but you personally

         11  were not thrown out of the police station.  That is

         12  what I wanted to say.

         13            JUDGE MAY:  I wonder if we're going to get

         14  much further with this.  You've heard the witness's

         15  evidence, you've challenged it, and you can call other

         16  evidence, if you have any.  I don't think we'll be

         17  assisted by any more.

         18            MR. NAUMOVSKI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

         19       Q.   Tell us, please, what exactly you did as a

         20  policeman in the newly-formed police station in Novi

         21  Travnik.

         22       A.   I was a policeman.

         23       Q.   Yes.  But were you a patrolling policeman or

         24  were you engaged in administrative affairs?

         25       A.   I engaged in police affairs.  You know very

Page 7709

          1  well; it was a war.  You do what the police does.

          2  There was a shortage of manpower.

          3       Q.   Tell me, please, can we agree on a further

          4  point, and that is that in September 1992, because of

          5  the war operations going on in Bosnia-Herzegovina as a

          6  whole, between four and five thousand Muslim refugees

          7  came to the town and the municipality of Novi Travnik?

          8       A.   I don't understand the question.  Which

          9  refugees, from where?

         10       Q.   The refugees from the areas where the Serbs

         11  were expelling populations, the north and northwest of

         12  Bosnia-Herzegovina.

         13       A.   Yes, there were refugees coming especially

         14  from the municipality of Jajce.

         15       Q.   Yes.  That wave of refugees from Jajce came

         16  when Jajce fell, but I'm talking about the second half

         17  of 1992, refugees were arriving.  Can we agree on that?

         18       A.   I don't know.  I don't know when they left.

         19  I can't be precise about that.

         20       Q.   But as a policeman, dealing with people on a

         21  daily basis, you must have noticed that in September

         22  1992, there was a great deal of pressure from the

         23  refugees in the town and the surroundings.

         24       A.   There were refugees, but I cannot be specific

         25  about when they came or when they left.  I know that

Page 7710

          1  most of them came when the Serbs attacked the

          2  municipality of Jajce.

          3       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Tell me, please,

          4  these refugees that came to the territory of Novi

          5  Travnik, did they report to the Novi Travnik police

          6  station?

          7       A.   There were records.

          8       Q.   Apart from being registered, they all

          9  submitted requests for ID cards because they had moved

         10  into certain apartments in town.

         11       A.   I do not remember that.

         12       Q.   You weren't engaged on those matters?

         13       A.   No, I was not.

         14       Q.   Thank you.  Today, the Prosecutor has

         15  tendered into evidence a large number of official notes

         16  with statements by citizens complaining about what had

         17  happened to them, robberies, and so on.

         18       A.   Are you asking me as the police or me

         19  personally?

         20       Q.   Yes, the police.  You said you and your

         21  colleagues, because we know that there were many

         22  documents that were not written by you.

         23       A.   Yes, that was one of the ways.  You know

         24  that, according to our legislation, an official note is

         25  a manner of registering an event, and so I received

Page 7711

          1  such notes and complaints.

          2       Q.   A brief overview of these documents -- there

          3  are many; I haven't had time to look into them -- but I

          4  see that they are official notes, and that was all that

          5  was taken, a mere matter of registering the event.

          6       A.   Yes.  Yes, because what else could we do in

          7  those days?  Could I perhaps call up someone to assist

          8  us?  That was all that we could do because we had no

          9  one to complain to on the other side.

         10       Q.   The citizens did not write those statements

         11  they gave, as far as I can see.

         12       A.   These were statements in the form of official

         13  notes, so they are not really statements.  They are,

         14  rather, official notes about statements.

         15       Q.   Thank you.  But members of which ethnic group

         16  complained to your police station about what had

         17  happened to them?

         18       A.   Mostly Bosnian Muslims, mostly.

         19       Q.   To judge by the names, the vast majority are

         20  Muslims; I just wanted us to agree on that.

         21            Tell me, please, regarding your particular

         22  field of activity, did the Kalinska Ulica belong to

         23  your area?  It was previously called the 4th of July

         24  Street.

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 7712

          1       Q.   These are buildings, apartment buildings

          2  inhabited by other ethnic groups, I mean, Croats and

          3  Serbs?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   Those citizens in those apartment buildings

          6  were also mistreated and evicted, were they not?

          7       A.   I don't agree with you.  If any one of them

          8  left, they left on time because they knew when the HVO

          9  would attack, at least in the case of the first and

         10  second conflict.

         11       Q.   When you say "on time," what do you mean?

         12       A.   I mean they simply knew that a conflict would

         13  occur.

         14       Q.   Witness Q, I'm not talking about the

         15  conflict.  I'm asking you whether you know or, rather,

         16  whether you would agree with me that both Croats and

         17  Serbs living in this same street were also mistreated,

         18  people broke into their flats, their property was

         19  stolen, et cetera, et cetera.

         20       A.   No, I do not agree with you on that issue.

         21  I'm not aware of cases of Croats on Kalinska Street

         22  being mistreated or evicted.  I'm not aware of that.

         23       Q.   But can we agree that as a policeman

         24  responsible for that sector, you should have been aware

         25  of that?

Page 7713

          1            JUDGE MAY:  Listen, the witness has said he

          2  is not aware of it.  We can't take the matter any

          3  further.

          4            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] If Your

          5  Honour permits, I wanted to mention two particular

          6  cases, but if you disagree, I won't.

          7            JUDGE MAY:  There's no point.  He says he

          8  doesn't remember.

          9            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.

         10  Thank you.

         11       Q.   A few questions in connection with the events

         12  that happened in the old skyscraper or Soliter.  Their

         13  Honours have already heard about it, so I shall be very

         14  brief.

         15            In your earlier statements, and you gave two,

         16  you said that the HVO attacked and shot at the building

         17  but that on one occasion, an HVO soldier, Marko

         18  Suhreta, entered the building and was wounded, together

         19  with another person; do you remember that?

         20       A.   Yes, I do.

         21       Q.   Also today, you said, if I heard correctly,

         22  that this Marko Suhreta had documents on him that he

         23  was a Croatian soldier.

         24       A.   Yes, he had the ID of a Croatian soldier.

         25       Q.   Did you have that ID in your hands?

Page 7714

          1       A.   I saw it.  I personally saw it.

          2       Q.   And where was it left?

          3       A.   I don't know who has it; probably one of the

          4  tenants kept it.

          5       Q.   But this Marko Suhreta, does he come from the

          6  territory of Novi Travnik?

          7       A.   I don't know where he comes from.  I don't

          8  know.

          9       Q.   But it was for the first time that you said

         10  today that the HV attacked this apartment building.  I

         11  never found that statement in your earlier statements.

         12       A.   I said that a member of the Croatian army

         13  participated in the attack on the Stari Soliter.  That

         14  is what I said.

         15       Q.   So this is this individual that we are

         16  talking about, so that there should be no

         17  misunderstanding, and I think that is a mistake in the

         18  transcript.

         19            You agreed with the question of the

         20  Prosecutor today that the HVO set a condition on the

         21  release of the occupants of that skyscraper; that is,

         22  that all the Croats on the territory under the control

         23  of the BH army should be released.

         24       A.   Correct.  That was a precondition set by the

         25  Croatian side.  It was very clear and very precise,

Page 7715

          1  "all for all," as they would put it.

          2       Q.   Witness Q, I have to remind you that in your

          3  statement of the 5th of June, 1999, that is, your

          4  second statement to the investigators, you said that

          5  the HVO asked that the Croats living in their houses in

          6  Senkovici and Torine should be released to territory

          7  under Croatian control.  You were talking about only

          8  the villages of Senkovici and Torine.

          9       A.   Those were the remaining population living in

         10  the territory under the control of the BH army.  You

         11  should know that.

         12       Q.   I just wanted us to agree that in that

         13  statement, you did not mention any other village but

         14  the villages of Senkovici and Torine.  Senkovici, yes,

         15  I'm sorry.

         16       A.   Most of the Croatian population at the time

         17  were in the village of Senkovici.  I think there were

         18  about 200 of them.

         19       Q.   I have seen several exhibits tendered by the

         20  Prosecutor today having to do with Croats living in the

         21  area under the control of the BH army.

         22            By way of an example, this is Z1963,8, it is

         23  a statement from which -- it is a printed form of your

         24  commission for the exchange of prisoners, from which it

         25  emerges that Petar Kuhta and Milka Kuhta refused to

Page 7716

          1  take part in the exchange on the 17th of September,

          2  1993.  It is number Z1963,8.  Do you have the document

          3  in front of you?

          4       A.   I do.

          5       Q.   But there's only one signature on this

          6  statement.

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   One of the two of them; we don't know which

          9  one.

         10       A.   Petar Kuhta signed it.

         11       Q.   Then there is a heading "Witnesses," people

         12  who witnessed this statement.  We agree with that?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   But no one is registered under that heading,

         15  "Witnesses"?

         16       A.   As you can see by the date, this was written

         17  just before the exchange.  So there were objective

         18  problems prior to the exchange.  There were people who

         19  simply would not be exchanged.  The Croatian side wants

         20  them to be exchanged.  So there were hundreds of people

         21  waiting.

         22            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Naumovski, it's now coming on

         23  to the time when we must adjourn.  Have you many more

         24  questions?

         25            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I would have

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          1  a few, at least another 15 or 20 minutes.  I tried to

          2  be as expeditious as possible; unfortunately, I haven't

          3  succeeded.

          4            JUDGE MAY:  Tomorrow afternoon then.

          5            Witness Q, I'm afraid we're not going to

          6  finish your evidence today, so I must ask you to come

          7  back tomorrow to conclude it.  Could you be back,

          8  please, at half past two tomorrow?  Could I remind you,

          9  during that time, not to speak to anybody about your

         10  evidence and not let anybody, of course, speak to you

         11  about it?  That does include members of the

         12  Prosecution.  Would you be back at half past two?

         13            Is there something you want to raise,

         14  Mr. Lopez-Terres?

         15            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I simply

         16  wish to indicate that most of the documents that we

         17  referred to this afternoon bear the name of the witness

         18  and, therefore, they also should be protected.

         19            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Half past two then

         20  tomorrow.

         21                 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

         22                 4.43 p.m., to be reconvened on

         23                 Wednesday, the 29th of September, 1999,

         24                 at 2.30 p.m.