Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7718

1 Wednesday, 29th September, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 3.07 p.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

7 Your Honour.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

11 Q. Witness Q, may we continue from where we left

12 off yesterday? The last document we discussed was

13 Z1963,8, and that was the form and declaration by the

14 people who didn't wish to be exchanged.

15 Can we go a step further? It is Z1963,9,

16 that is the next document, and it is a list of

17 individuals who did not wish to be exchanged. There

18 were some 15 names on the list, including Peter Kuhta

19 and Milka Kuhta, who are mentioned in this document. I

20 am sure you remember the document; it was shown to

21 you.

22 A. Yes, I have the document now.

23 Q. Can we agree that we don't have the

24 statements of all these individuals? Only for Petar

25 Kuhta do we have a signed statement saying that he did

Page 7719

1 not wish to be exchanged; is that not right?

2 A. Well, among these papers, we only have his

3 statement tendered, yes, that's right.

4 Q. Thank you. As we're talking about exchange,

5 you became president of the commission in June, on the

6 1st of June, 1993; is that right?

7 A. Yes, in June.

8 Q. And together with you in the commission was

9 Kahric Nijaz, called Nidzo, and Jasmin Krnjic; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In June, in the secondary school in Novi

13 Travnik, there were 15 workers detained from the

14 Bratstvo factory, they were the security detail there,

15 and that was the first exchange that you took part in.

16 A. No, I don't think it was the first exchange.

17 Q. But you know about these 15 civilians who

18 were exchanged on the 25th of June, 1993, with the

19 mediation of your commission.

20 A. Yes, I do know that.

21 Q. Thank you. In July 1993, in the villages of

22 Vodovod and Bukvica, 60 Croats were detained, 16 men,

23 29 women, and 15 children. Do you agree with that; is

24 that right?

25 A. No, I don't agree with respect to the word

Page 7720

1 "imprisoned," that is to say, they were in their

2 homes. They were absolutely free in their homes, of

3 course as much as the wartime circumstances allowed.

4 Q. Yes, but your side said to the HVO that 11

5 men were detained at the school.

6 A. Well, I don't know about that piece of

7 information.

8 Q. In July 1993, do you agree with me when I say

9 that a total, that is to say, on the side held by the

10 BH army, that there were 327 civilian Croats

11 imprisoned, detained?

12 A. No, I do not agree with you there. I hear

13 that figure for the first time.

14 Q. Of the total number, the UNHCR made up a list

15 of 183 civilian Croats who were detained in the village

16 of Senkovici alone?

17 A. No, I don't agree with that. They were

18 people who were living in their own homes, who tilled

19 their own land, who lived with their families in their

20 own homes, and as I said yesterday, most of those

21 people did not wish to be exchanged, and that was the

22 problem. It was a problem that the commission had to

23 face, had to deal with, because when you go to see the

24 people, the people say, "We don't want to be

25 exchanged," and finally, they said, "All right. We can

Page 7721

1 be exchanged but on condition that we don't have to go

2 to the lower part of town of Travnik, but in the

3 direction of Herzegovina or Croatia."

4 Q. Yes, you said that yesterday. So we don't

5 agree with the term used "detained," or "imprisoned";

6 we agree with the number of civilians?

7 A. Well, yesterday, I said in the exchange, all

8 for all, that on the occasion, about 200 people, 200

9 individuals crossed into the part of town under the

10 control of the HVO. These were people who lived in

11 their own homes.

12 Q. Yes, I understood you. Thank you. As we

13 mentioned the village of Senkovici, do you agree with

14 me when I say that the representative of the HVO -- and

15 first of all, I have in mind Dr. Zdenko Kranjc -- for

16 the first time were in a position to visit --

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Let me repeat the question. Dr. Zdenko

20 Kranjc was the first representative of the HVO who had

21 occasion to visit the inhabitants of Senkovici in order

22 to ascertain their health condition?

23 A. Dr. Zdenko Kranjc went with us to visit the

24 Senkovici village and the inhabitants there to size up

25 the situation, to see that the people were living

Page 7722

1 normally there in their own village and to see for

2 himself and to be told by them that they did not wish

3 to be exchanged. Because, as I said, this was a great

4 problem for me as president of the commission, how to

5 convince the other side that people quite simply did

6 not wish to leave their homes.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you. You've already said that.

8 Let me finish asking my question, please.

9 We're talking about the events that took

10 place on the 19th of August, 1993, and that was when

11 Dr. Kranjc visited the village, was it not?

12 A. Well, I don't remember the exact date, but I

13 have it recorded somewhere.

14 Q. But the inhabitants of Senkovici on that

15 occasion, in front of Dr. Kranjc, told you that they do

16 wish to be exchanged and not that they do not wish to

17 be exchanged, as you wanted to convince the HVO

18 earlier.

19 A. Well, I remember that visit very well. When

20 we came to the village, they remained adamant at the

21 beginning, but afterwards, Dr. Zdenko Kranjc asked a

22 separate meeting with all of them, and I enabled him to

23 have that meeting; I had nothing against it. After

24 that second meeting, they changed their minds. So

25 that's how it was.

Page 7723

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. When we're speaking

2 about the inhabitants of Senkovici, they were forced to

3 hold the front line both towards the Serbs and towards

4 the HVO; is that correct?

5 A. That is not correct. No, it's not true.

6 It's not true. If I may be permitted to say something,

7 they were in a much better position than many Bosniaks

8 who went up to the front line to fight. They were with

9 their own families in their own homes.

10 Q. Yes, but what I wanted to say was that they

11 held the front line at Mravinjac, Kamenjas, towards the

12 army of the Republika Srpska.

13 A. Before the conflict between the HVO and the

14 army, there were lines which had both the members of

15 the Armija and the HVO together jointly.

16 Q. I wanted, when speaking about the documents

17 that you looked at yesterday, to look at a document

18 which is Z1963,12, and the document contains a total of

19 40 documents and they are all official notes, as we

20 agreed yesterday; is that not so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. However, 22 of these 40 official notes are

23 based on what we call operative data, which means that

24 it does not state the source of the information. Is

25 that not right? Let me give you an example to

Page 7724

1 facilitate matters.

2 JUDGE MAY: It may be the witness can agree

3 with that without being taken to an example. Do you

4 agree, Witness Q, that at least some of these are based

5 on sources which aren't identified?

6 A. Yes, I do agree with that. I think that this

7 is just a small portion of the notes, official notes,

8 and that there were many more in actual fact.


10 Q. Well, if we agree in this matter, then we

11 needn't go into those documents any more. We discussed

12 them yesterday.

13 Let me just round off what we mentioned

14 yesterday in connection with the Stari Soliter

15 building, and the Court has already heard about this.

16 Tell us, please, Mr. Q, do you agree that across the

17 road from this high-rise building was another high-rise

18 which the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina held as a

19 military facility? I think it is the high-rise which

20 was partially burnt. Anyway, there was a fire in 1992

21 there.

22 A. Yes, it is a high-rise which the members of

23 the HVO set fire to by shooting at it.

24 Q. You haven't answered my question. So it is

25 not a military facility, in fact, but was it held by

Page 7725

1 the BH army in the period we're talking about?

2 A. After it was set fire to, it was abandoned.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

4 I'm just indicating the testimony by Witness C, so I

5 don't need to go into this matter with this particular

6 witness.

7 Your Honours, if I may now, I have just taken

8 a look at my note, when Witness C, on the seventh day

9 of our deliberations, the 20th of April, 1999, gave his

10 testimony, he answered one of your questions, that is

11 to say, "What was the condition set by the HVO to let

12 the inhabitants of that high-rise leave?" I should

13 like now, if I may, just to ask for some precision,

14 that is to say, my own stand in that regard, if I may.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] On that

17 occasion, I accepted what Witness C said, more or less,

18 but I think that it is true that the HVO really did

19 impose a condition and said that it would leave the

20 tenants -- let the tenants go on condition that the

21 Croats who were detained by the BH army side, and there

22 they had in mind the village of Trenica and Senkovici,

23 that those individuals should be exchanged for the

24 inhabitants of the high-rise. So that is the precision

25 that I would like to make in relation to the answer I

Page 7726

1 gave you on that occasion. I said that on page 932 of

2 the transcript.

3 Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. Speaking about the exchange, I omitted to ask

5 you one thing. In the village of Opara, in the

6 elementary school, there were 25 detainees, Croats, in

7 the summer of 1993, in July 1993; is that right?

8 A. I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. You did not take part in their exchange,

10 therefore?

11 A. No.

12 Q. In the villages, on the 2nd of June, Trenica,

13 Bugojcici, Petocici, Potocani, Bistro, in those

14 villages, 47 individuals were detained, 80 men, 24

15 women, and five children. Do you agree with me?

16 A. I do not agree in the wording you have used,

17 "detained," that is to say, "imprisoned". We know

18 what "imprisoned" means. As I say again, those people

19 were in their own houses; they had water. They didn't

20 have electricity, but they had water.

21 Q. Thank you. But do you agree that those

22 people were never registered with the Red Cross?

23 A. I'm sorry, I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. Thank you. You spoke about seeing Mr. Kordic

25 yesterday on several occasions on television. I think

Page 7727

1 you'll agree that he was wearing a uniform on some

2 occasions and civilian clothing on others.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I didn't hear you say what period you were

5 talking about when you said you saw him on television.

6 A. I saw him since my arrival in Bosnia; that is

7 to say, from August onwards.

8 Q. You mean August 1991?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. I asked you for those specific details

11 because of the conclusions you drew on the basis of

12 what Mr. Kordic had said, and you say that the same

13 conclusions were repeated?

14 A. I don't remember the details of the speech,

15 but that was the substance of it.

16 Q. But you didn't speak about one speech that he

17 made but of several?

18 A. Yes, because I saw him on television on many

19 occasions. He wasn't on television only once.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Your Honours, I have no

21 further questions to ask this witness with regard to

22 what Mr. Kordic said, although the Defence does not

23 agree with the conclusions that are made by the witness

24 as to what Mr. Kordic had said when he appeared on

25 television. So that is what we contest.

Page 7728

1 Q. Mr. Q, did you go about your business, as the

2 representative and president of the commission for

3 exchange, to the villages of Ruda, Pecine, and

4 Margetic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You explained yesterday to the Prosecutor

7 that you were never in the military police, as

8 Commander Yorke said, who investigated the events in

9 the village of Lazine?

10 A. Yes, that's right. I said I was a member of

11 the -- I was never a member of the BH army and, by the

12 same token, a military policeman.

13 Q. I looked at Z1963.10, written in English. It

14 is a statement, and he understood you both to be a

15 military policeman and also an officer for the exchange

16 of individuals in Bosnia-Hercegovina of the Novi

17 Travnik Brigade, as an officer for exchange in this

18 portion of the brigade and as a military policeman.

19 A. Well, I don't know what Captain Yorke thought

20 of that. I know that I worked at the time. I

21 contacted him when it came to exchanges of this kind

22 and pulling out the remains of -- the bodily remains at

23 Begino Brdo, in the Begino Brdo area.

24 Q. In the first paragraph of his report,

25 Mr. Yorke says --

Page 7729

1 JUDGE MAY: Look, Mr. Naumovski, the witness

2 has said that he doesn't understand how Captain Yorke

3 came to that conclusion. There seems little point

4 going on about it. We've got the report, and if you

5 want to comment on it, you can.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] That's

7 precisely what I wanted, so we've dealt with that

8 question.

9 Q. The essential point is that Mr. Yorke noted

10 that you agreed to a ceasefire that had been agreed

11 upon previously and that you told him about the events?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But you told us yesterday that you were not

14 an eyewitness of the particular event, that is to say,

15 when those people were killed; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. I was not, but every inhabitant of the

17 upper part of town, or Kalinska Street, as we call it,

18 remembered that event very well, and it was recounted

19 afterwards.

20 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, along with this

21 report, in your papers we do not have the post-mortem

22 findings. You said that a physician examined the

23 bodies, but we have no findings.

24 A. What are you thinking about?

25 Q. I'm talking about the three -- that is to

Page 7730

1 say, two bodies that were found in the period when

2 Captain Yorke was there.

3 A. I did not attach a single post-mortem

4 finding. This was just a report of mine to the Novi

5 Travnik municipality.

6 Q. Yes. But in your reports, we cannot see

7 whether the injuries were injuries during the -- while

8 the people were alive or whether the injuries were done

9 to the body after death.

10 A. Well, I'm not a pathologist. I didn't see

11 the bodies. In the Sahinovic -- Muhamed Sahinovic case

12 and Hajdar Mujic, I did talk to the coroner, the

13 physician, who described in detail the state in which

14 these people found themselves after the exchange, and

15 you will notice in the report that I used different

16 terms, terms of the medical profession, used by the

17 medical profession. So they were direct eyewitnesses.

18 Dr. Suvad Grizic was one of them, and the whole event

19 was taped by Mirad Silajdzija. I'm talking about

20 Sahinovic and Mujic.

21 Q. I just want to say, in general terms, that in

22 what you wrote, there is no mention of whether the

23 injuries were incurred during the individual's life or

24 afterwards, after they had already died. Do we agree

25 there?

Page 7731

1 A. I wrote the report on the exchange that took

2 place, and it was not a post-mortem report.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

4 don't think we need tire the Court further with that

5 matter.

6 Your Honours, I beg your indulgence for just

7 one moment. I think that I am drawing to a close.

8 In fact, I have no further questions. Thank

9 you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

11 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

12 Your Honours.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Q. My name is

15 Goran Mikulicic. I'm a lawyer from Zagreb in this

16 case, and I am the Defence counsel, with Mr. Kovacic,

17 of the accused Mario Cerkez.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. I'm going to ask you a number of questions,

20 and I should like you to answer them to the best of

21 your knowledge and recollection.

22 Mr. Q, tell us, please, how long have you

23 been a policeman?

24 A. About 17 years.

25 Q. Tell us, please, which police schools you

Page 7732

1 attended, academies?

2 A. The policemen's secondary school in Zagreb.

3 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Q, when you attended

4 these secondary schools for policemen, did you study

5 the criminal code of the former Yugoslavia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know any provisions of the criminal

8 code which refer to police matters within this code of

9 criminal procedure?

10 A. Yes, more or less.

11 Q. Therefore, I can take it that you know the

12 provision of Article 151 of the previous Law on

13 Criminal Procedure, which speaks about official notes.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As you know the stipulations of that

16 provision, will you agree with me when I say that an

17 official note is one of the ways in which the police

18 documents individual events?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Will you agree with me when I say that an

21 official note is so-called informal evidence within the

22 criminal procedure in the former Yugoslavia?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Q, what does the police

25 do after it compiles an official note, as a rule? Does

Page 7733

1 it then file a criminal report in its further

2 investigations?

3 A. An official note is, in fact, the next step

4 to take to ascertain the truth of a given matter.

5 Q. After a police investigation is conducted,

6 then a criminal report is filed to the Prosecutor's

7 office; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know, Mr. Q, that in cases of this

10 kind, the ones that were tabled as evidence, whether

11 any criminal reports were filed with regard to the

12 looting of Bosniak citizens in the town of Travnik?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Do you know whether the police identified the

15 perpetrators of the burglaries and looting that took

16 place?

17 A. I don't know, because they were wartime

18 circumstances. It was a total blockade, in fact.

19 Q. Is it possible, in view of the fact that the

20 perpetrators remained unidentified, to ascertain

21 whether they were members of military units, or

22 civilians, or if they were members of military units,

23 which units they belonged to?

24 A. That was not possible at the time. It was

25 not possible to ascertain that. But according to the

Page 7734

1 insignia on their uniforms, they could have known, and

2 as I said yesterday, it was frequently that these

3 perpetrators were masked, that is to say, you couldn't

4 recognise them.

5 Q. Yes, I take your point.

6 I looked through the official notes that were

7 shown to you yesterday and that you have before you,

8 and as a general concept, it says that the perpetrators

9 were members of the HVO, but it is not said which

10 unit. Do you agree with me?

11 A. Well, if it's not mentioned, then it isn't,

12 is it?

13 Q. Mr. Q, a moment ago you said that they were

14 in uniform and that they had HVO insignia. You also

15 told us that from time to time, you wore a military

16 uniform, although you were not a military man. Did you

17 have any insignia on the uniform that you occasionally

18 wore?

19 A. For the most part, no, I had none.

20 Q. When you say "usually", does that mean that

21 sometimes you did?

22 A. Yes, sometimes I did, as a member of the

23 police.

24 Q. We're talking about a military uniform, sir,

25 camouflage uniform.

Page 7735

1 A. Camouflage uniforms were worn by policemen

2 too; in war, that is.

3 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Q, do you know somebody

4 nicknamed Sosa in Novi Travnik?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Do you know that that individual was a

7 suspect for many crimes committed in Novi Travnik?

8 A. No, I don't know that. I do know that he was

9 a member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think

10 the Novi Travnik 308th Mountain Brigade.

11 Q. Let us move on now to another topic, Mr. Q.

12 You said that you were a member from the 1st

13 of June, 1993, and president of the exchange

14 commission. Could you define for us the commission?

15 Was it a civilian body or was it a military body?

16 A. It was a body that was appointed by the war

17 presidency of the municipality of Novi Travnik; that is

18 to say, it was appointed by the civilian authorities.

19 Q. You would table reports to the war presidency

20 as the civilian authority; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Q, would you please take a look at

23 Exhibit 1963,7? Would you look at the lower right-hand

24 corner of that document, which is where your signature

25 is under number 2, and above it says, "The BH army

Page 7736

1 commission". You signed the document. You told us

2 that the commission was a civilian body. How, then,

3 can you explain this particular fact on the document?

4 A. Well, this record was drawn up by the

5 commission for exchange of the Croatian Defence Council

6 for Novi Travnik, and that's how they wrote it;

7 although, if we take into account the circumstances

8 under which the exchange took place, then this was

9 practically up at the front line. So it was under

10 exceptionally dangerous circumstances, and so you try

11 and get the job done as soon as possible.

12 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Q, despite

13 the fact that you signed this record as a member of the

14 commission of the BH army, you state that you were

15 never a military man but a civilian; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, take a look at page 2 of the record,

18 which says "HVO commission." Were these individuals

19 civilians or were they soldiers?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Do you mean Josip Brodovic?

22 A. I don't know, but according to the heading, I

23 would say that they were members of the Croatian

24 Defence Council. This is their document; they wrote

25 this document.

Page 7737

1 Q. Yes, you've already told us that, Mr. Q.

2 What do you mean when you say "the Croatian Defence

3 Council," a civilian or military institution?

4 A. A military one.

5 Q. Very well. Mr. Q, do you know who, in

6 October 1993, was in command of the Stjepan Tomasevic

7 Brigade in Novi Travnik?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. Mr. Q, in Novi Travnik, next to the old

10 high-rise which we have talked about, there are at

11 least four other tall apartment buildings, that is, the

12 Koric, Novoteks, and the Novotekna, as their names are;

13 is that correct?

14 A. Those are high-rises. I don't know if they

15 are the same height or one or two higher or lower, but

16 they are all about ten stories high.

17 Q. Do you agree with me that they are the

18 dominant structures in town, that is, based on their

19 height?

20 A. Based on the height, yes. Perhaps there

21 is -- they would be matched by Splicanka in the lower

22 part of town.

23 Q. In September of 1993, you said that the HVO

24 had controlled the old high-rise building. Do you

25 agree with me that this building was at the very line

Page 7738

1 of separation of the two confronted parties in town?

2 A. Yes, it was in the immediate vicinity of the

3 line of separation, more closer to the HVO side.

4 Q. Mr. Q, who controlled the Koric high-rise?

5 A. I don't know a single building by that name.

6 Q. Perhaps your mind would be refreshed if you

7 see a sketch.

8 A. You mean Koric?

9 Q. Oh, yes, my apologies. You're quite right.

10 Could you now answer that question? Who controlled the

11 Koric high-rise?

12 A. It was controlled by the army.

13 Q. How far was that building from the line of

14 separation in October 1993?

15 A. It is hard to say with precision, some 70

16 metres perhaps.

17 Q. So that's very close, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Q, let me take you back to 1991 and early

20 1992 for a moment. Is it true that young men from the

21 Novi Travnik area at that time were going to the

22 Republic of Croatia, which had been attacked by the JNA

23 and the Serbian and Montenegrin paramilitary units, to

24 fight for the Republic of Croatia against the

25 attackers? Do you remember whether there were such

Page 7739

1 young men who went there?

2 A. I do not know of a single case from Novi

3 Travnik.

4 Q. If you don't know anything about that, I have

5 no further questions of you, and I thank you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

7 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

8 Q. Witness Q, the Defence has indicated on

9 several occasions, in connection with this exchange

10 between the residents of the Stari Soliter building and

11 the Croats who were in the area under the control of

12 the Bosnian army, that this was an exchange of

13 prisoners.

14 Let me ask you the question once again: The

15 Croats who were in the area under the control of the

16 Bosnian army, were they detained by the Bosnian army?

17 A. No. As I have already said, it is

18 inappropriate to compare people who were held in the

19 Soliter as detainees and people who lived at peace in

20 their own homes, with their families. They had their

21 own livestock; they were spared going to the front

22 lines. I cannot, under any circumstances, agree that

23 these people were prisoners because, after all, those

24 people didn't want to be exchanged.

25 Q. So those people could engage in their regular

Page 7740

1 activities, to the extent that that was possible in

2 times of war. They could tend their farms and engage

3 in other normal activities.

4 A. Yes, exactly so. One of the reasons why they

5 didn't want to go down there was because they knew that

6 all men of military age would immediately be engaged as

7 HVO soldiers; whereas in their villages, they were left

8 in peace.

9 Q. The Defence also spoke to you about a list of

10 123 Croatian prisoners established by the United

11 Nations Commission for Refugees. Have you seen that

12 list?

13 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

14 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I wish to

15 draw the attention of the Trial Chamber, this list

16 referred to a moment ago, that the Office of the

17 Prosecutor is not aware of the list, and if the Defence

18 has one, the Office of the Prosecutor would be glad to

19 have a copy.

20 Q. A question has been addressed to you

21 regarding the identification of the people who

22 conducted acts of violence and evictions which were the

23 subject of official reports drawn up by your service.

24 On one of the documents that you yourself

25 signed -- it is a document dated the 10th of June,

Page 7741

1 1993 -- it appears that one of the victims recognised

2 among the perpetrators of these acts of violence a man

3 called Zuti, Andro Androvic, known better under the

4 name Zuti.

5 This note is the one with the reference

6 number Z1963,1 -- 1963,1 -- and you indicate in this

7 report, in this note signed by you on the 10th of June,

8 1993, among them, Mr. Zaim Ramic, and you say that this

9 person was beaten by HVO members, among whom he

10 recognised Zarko Jandric also known as Zuti.

11 Do you see this document? Do you have it in

12 front of you?

13 A. Yes, I do have the document.

14 Q. What do you know about this person known as

15 Zuti?

16 A. This is a statement by Zaim Ramic, living on

17 Veljko Vlahovic Street, in Novi Travnik. I think there

18 must be a mistake. His name was not "Jandric," but

19 Andric, Zarko, known as Zuti, without the "J,"

20 therefore, whom I later had occasion to meet. In those

21 days, I didn't know him at all.

22 Q. Do you know where Mr. Andric, known as Zuti,

23 came from?

24 A. I think he came from the village of Ricice,

25 near Travnik or, rather, Nova Bila.

Page 7742

1 Q. He came from Nova Bila?

2 A. Yes. Just now, he's living in Nova Bila. As

3 far as I know, he owns a cafe.

4 Q. Do you know whether that person was the head

5 of a group known as "Zuti's Group," which was active

6 throughout the conflict in the Lasva Valley in 1993?

7 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. He is still active.

8 Zuti still has a group of his own people who take care

9 of him, as he is disabled. He was paralysed during a

10 showdown.

11 Q. This Zuti --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, I don't really

13 see that this arises from the cross-examination. We've

14 heard now quite a lot about this individual and, no

15 doubt, have a picture of him.

16 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] The

17 Defence complained that people could not be identified

18 among the perpetrators. This is almost the only name

19 that appears as one of the perpetrators. I will be

20 finishing this point soon.

21 Q. Reference was made to someone called Susa a

22 moment ago.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That he was a member of the BH army and of

25 the 308th Brigade, that is what you said a moment ago.

Page 7743

1 A. Sosa, yes. Yes, I can confirm that.

2 Q. Was his real name Ivo Skocibusic?

3 A. I think this is a misunderstanding. We are

4 talking about two people with similar nicknames: One

5 is Susa, he is Skocibusic, and Sosa is quite a

6 different person who was on the side of the army.

7 Q. It is precisely on this point I wish to hear

8 your clarifications. A moment ago, the person you

9 spoke of as a member of the 308th Brigade, was he

10 Mr. Ivo Skocibusic, who was a leader of the HOS in Novi

11 Travnik?

12 A. No. No, it was Sosa; Fikret Skopljak, I

13 think his name was.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you.

15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no

16 further questions.

17 JUDGE MAY: Witness Q, thank you for coming.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: Witness Q, thank you for coming

21 to the International Tribunal to give your evidence.

22 It is now concluded and you are released. You are free

23 to go.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 7744

1 MR. NICE: Mr. Baggesen is back. Perhaps he

2 can come in.


4 MR. NICE: I don't know what time we're

5 sitting to today or how much of tomorrow we've got. My

6 provisional plans are that Baggesen will be the last

7 witness this week. I'm sure we can finish him this

8 week, in what's left of today and tomorrow, but it

9 seems that there would be very limited time available

10 tomorrow and it wasn't possible to start another

11 witness tomorrow.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Some of us have a meeting

13 at 5.00, so we'll have to finish at quarter to.

14 MR. NICE: Right. If he comes in, and

15 Mr. Scott, who was taking him, will no doubt arrive

16 imminently.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I take it, we'll be

18 able to finish this witness, if not today at least

19 tomorrow?

20 MR. SAYERS: I would hope today, Your Honour,

21 but most certainly tomorrow. I think I should be

22 through by a quarter to five.

23 JUDGE MAY: Good. Thank you.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, it occurs to the Trial

Page 7745

1 Chamber that it may be convenient tomorrow to deal with

2 some of the legal points.

3 MR. NICE: It had occurred to me that we

4 might deal with the issue about the expert witness, in

5 particular. There's a substituted expert witness and

6 there's opposition to that, and that certainly can be

7 dealt with tomorrow. I've made arrangements for that

8 material to be ready.

9 JUDGE MAY: Let me see if I recollect the

10 point. It's --

11 MR. NICE: There's a witness we propose to

12 call called Ribicic, whose name couldn't be provided

13 until recently. He's an expert in constitutional

14 matters.

15 There was an earlier expert in the same field

16 named who had given evidence in the Blaskic case who,

17 for various reasons associated with the problems of

18 giving evidence here, was not able to give evidence

19 live for this trial.

20 Before the trial and aware of the

21 difficulties that might develop, I had his evidence in

22 the Blaskic case summarised and submitted to the

23 Defence for possible agreement. They felt unable to

24 agree and said that they would wish the witness for

25 cross-examination, and presumably that's the same

Page 7746

1 position that they would have taken had we made an

2 application to have his transcript evidence read, and

3 given that he's an important witness, there was every

4 reason to believe that the application to

5 cross-examine, even if we made an otherwise well-formed

6 application to have his transcript evidence read, would

7 be granted.

8 Further, their Defence pre-trial brief dealt

9 at great length with the issues dealt with in general

10 by that witness and to be dealt with by Ribicic, and

11 it's plainly an important part of their case. Indeed,

12 it would appear that the pre-trial brief has been

13 drafted, to this extent, by an expert they must have

14 already retained. I can't believe that the matters

15 spoken of are all within the knowledge and expertise of

16 lawyers.

17 So we set about finding an alternative

18 expert, and maybe for similar reasons to those that

19 were an impediment in the way of the first expert, we

20 had some difficulties.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: The witness is in now. We will

23 get a copy of this material, will we?

24 MR. NICE: The material, the expert report,

25 is not yet in form for service, but that's not in

Page 7747

1 itself an impediment. Can I deal with it later on?

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

3 Major, thank you for coming back. You are,

4 of course, subject to the solemn declaration. If you'd

5 like to take a seat, we will go on with your evidence

6 this afternoon, and if it's not finished this

7 afternoon, it will be tomorrow.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.


10 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Major. Sorry to force you to

12 come back today, but we hope to be through with the

13 questions that we have for you this afternoon.

14 When we left, we had discussed the fighting

15 that had occurred on the 16th of April, 1993, and I'd

16 just like to draw your attention to the 18th of April,

17 just a couple of days later.

18 There's a special report on the Middle Bosnia

19 situation, it's already been marked as Exhibit Z719,

20 and I don't think I need to show you a copy unless

21 you'd like to take a look at it, but it says that there

22 is fighting going on throughout the whole of the area

23 of responsibility of the BiH 3rd Corps, and this is on

24 the 18th of April now, and the conclusion is that the

25 worst fighting intensity for the time being is within

Page 7748

1 the Vitez area, where both sides are using all

2 available means against each other. Would you agree

3 with that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. The same document refers to the

6 situation in Zenica, where you were principally based,

7 and it says: "The situation is quiet, as these lines

8 are being typed, though throughout the night and the

9 day, there was sporadic shelling." Would you agree

10 that the shelling of Zenica was actually a rather

11 routine event?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. One question on the problems with

14 checkpoints. You said that the only issues that you

15 ever encountered were -- any access issues were with

16 HVO checkpoints, but isn't it true that you also

17 encountered occasionally with ABiH checkpoints as well?

18 A. Yes, we had, but not in the Lasva area, as

19 far as I can remember.

20 Q. There is a joint operation centre report

21 dated the 22nd of April, 1993, which makes a reference

22 to a team from the joint operations centre encountering

23 a BiH checkpoint outside of the Klokoti gas factory.

24 Just to orient you, that's somewhat to the northeast of

25 Bilalovac. There, it says -- and it's northwest of

Page 7749

1 Kiseljak. The joint operation centre report goes on to

2 say that the BiH forces denied permission to the ECMM

3 monitors to pass and threatened them with an RPG-7 and

4 two M-60 machine guns. Was that an unusual event in

5 your experience?

6 A. It was.

7 Q. And that was in the Lasva Valley area,

8 essentially, wasn't it?

9 A. I would describe that as south of the Lasva.

10 That's why I gave you that other answer.

11 Q. I stand duly corrected. Thank you very

12 much.

13 Now, you were in Central Bosnia throughout

14 the month of June 1993, weren't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Isn't it true that the ABiH launched

17 localised offensives against Croat pockets in Travnik,

18 for example, and in Kakanj, as another example?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Indeed, you yourself noted in your diary that

21 on June the 9th, as the fierce battles were raging

22 around Kakanj, you actually saw ABiH forces using

23 Croatian refugees as human shields to defend a power

24 plant; is that correct?

25 A. That's right.

Page 7750

1 Q. So the testimony about human shields that you

2 gave, it's a very unfortunate observation, but it was

3 really something that was going on fairly prevalently

4 on both sides, wasn't it?

5 A. It was.

6 Q. All right, sir. You were asked some

7 questions in connection with what you referred to as

8 Croat propaganda, for lack of a better term, and two

9 documents specifically, Z670 and Z696. The first one

10 dealt with the matter of flags, and there are three

11 names on the document. You identified this document as

12 having Mr. Kordic's fingerprints all over it, but would

13 it be fair to say that the document is not actually

14 signed by him? I would be more than happy to show you

15 a copy, if you wish.

16 A. As far as I can remember, they were not

17 signed, only the names were mentioned in the bottom.

18 MR. SAYERS: Yes, that's the point that I was

19 making.

20 I would like to have the usher show you

21 Exhibit Z696, which is the second document that bears

22 Mr. Kordic's name and about which you gave testimony.

23 Q. Major, just one real question about this

24 document. You'll see that there are three separate

25 names that appear on this document; right?

Page 7751

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But do you notice that the signature of each

3 one there is by the same person?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know who actually signed the document?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. That's fine.

8 Now, turning to the testimony that you gave

9 about atrocities against Croats in the days following

10 the outbreak of fighting on the 16th, isn't it true

11 that you visited several Croat villages to the west of

12 Zenica on April the 20th and recorded, on page 8 of

13 your diary, that you saw Croatian villages that had

14 been burned down, many houses abandoned, and criminal

15 gangs were running riot and pillaging houses?

16 A. Can I please have the date again?

17 Q. Absolutely. It's April the 20th, and it's on

18 page 8 of the English version. I don't know whether

19 that's of any help to you.

20 That is, indeed, what you saw?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. The next day, as I understand it,

23 sir, you continued your tour -- actually, before I ask

24 you that question, that's something that you saw and

25 verified with your own eyes; correct?

Page 7752

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The same is true on April 22nd; you visited

3 the village of Zalje, I believe --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- with Mr. Junhov and Fra Stipan Radic, and

6 it's true that you knew that ten Croats had

7 unfortunately been murdered in that village; correct?

8 A. We were told that by Fra Stipan.

9 Q. And you saw a 90-year-old man who had been

10 shot and, unfortunately, a young girl, aged about

11 three, who had been shot in the head in her bed?

12 A. We were told that by Father Stipan.

13 Q. And you have no reason to disbelieve that,

14 have you?

15 A. No, I haven't.

16 Q. All right. In fact, you believe that you

17 were being told the truth on that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The results of your investigation were

20 ultimately incorporated into a report, a special report

21 on Croats in Zenica, that was dated the 20th to the

22 21st of April, 1993; right?

23 A. I can't remember all the dates on my report.

24 Q. All right. Well, it's already been marked as

25 an exhibit in this case, D25/1. You're more than

Page 7753

1 welcome to take a look at it, but let me just draw your

2 attention to a few things.

3 Isn't it true that you found about four

4 houses burned and 38 houses empty in the village of

5 Cajdras?

6 A. I'd have to see the report to give you that

7 answer.

8 MR. SAYERS: 25/1. That's it, thank you.

9 Q. Major, I do not want to consume too much time

10 on this particular document, but this is one of the

11 documents that you had a part in drafting; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It, indeed, incorporated the results of your

15 investigations and observations?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We don't need to go through all of these

18 items of burned houses, robbings and so forth. The

19 document speaks for itself and it's already in

20 evidence. But wouldn't you agree there were in excess

21 of 50 or so burned houses that you yourself saw, that

22 there had been at least 14 Croats killed, and hundreds

23 and hundreds of families had fled their houses as a

24 result of this uncontrolled mayhem?

25 MR. SCOTT: I'm going to object to the form

Page 7754

1 of the question. The suggestion --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel,

3 please.

4 MR. SCOTT: The suggestion --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, please,

6 microphone.

7 MR. SCOTT: -- began as a result of HVO

8 propaganda. The question is --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please

10 repeat his intervention?

11 JUDGE MAY: You're asked to repeat the point

12 for the interpreters.

13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we object to

14 Mr. Sayers' question for the reason that it's not

15 consistent with the witness's testimony at all. The

16 witness's testimony clearly on direct was that the

17 movement by the Bosnian Croats out of the Cajdras area

18 and the villages west of Zenica was as a result of HVO

19 propaganda, not as a result of uncontrolled mayhem.

20 The question is fundamentally misleading.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think he's entitled to

22 ask it in cross-examination. But so the witness can

23 follow the point, I will rephrase it.

24 Did they flee because of propaganda or was it

25 because there was general uncontrolled mayhem, as it's

Page 7755

1 put, going on around them? Major, do you have a view

2 as to that?

3 A. No. We were only able to see the burned

4 houses, and our conclusions were that the people there

5 had left that area because it was not secure enough for

6 them to stay there.

7 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much indeed,

8 Major. Let me continue, if I may.

9 Q. On the day that you described three buses, I

10 think it was, were repossessed from you by HVO forces,

11 to put it charitably, isn't it true that that occurred

12 on April the 25th of 1993 and that that was the same

13 day that five Croat civilians were massacred in the

14 village of Miletici?

15 A. I remember that the buses were taken from

16 us. I cannot recall what else happened that day.

17 MR. SAYERS: All right. I actually have the

18 daily operations report from that day which I would

19 like to have marked as an exhibit and which can be

20 shown to you, and that may refresh your recollection.

21 Thank you.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit is marked D86/1.

23 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

24 Q. The part of this document that I would like

25 to draw your attention to specifically, Major, is

Page 7756

1 paragraph C on the first page, which refers to the

2 Croat village of Miletici and five inhabitants there

3 having been murdered by shots and by knives. Everyone

4 can read this document for themselves.

5 Let me just ask you to inform the Trial

6 Chamber of whether this is an accurate recitation of

7 what you understand occurred in Miletici and what the

8 ECMM understood occurred there.

9 A. Yes. As I can see, one of our team was

10 there.

11 Q. That was Major Friis-Pedersen?

12 A. Yes, and he was together with Mr. Merdan and

13 Mr. Nakic.

14 Q. I don't think there's any need to go through

15 this, Major. It really speaks for itself. Let me ask

16 you to focus your attention on the next day.

17 Do you remember visiting the village of

18 Janjac, where about 50 per cent of the houses had been

19 robbed, and an old woman had been killed by a sniper,

20 and seven houses actually had been burned down by

21 extremists with two soldiers in the basement, and they

22 had burned to death as a result; do you remember that?

23 A. Did I make a report of that?

24 Q. I think you did. Let me have a copy of that

25 marked. I think it's actually already been marked as

Page 7757

1 Z832 in the Prosecution's direct examination.

2 This is a report from Team Z1, which

3 consisted of you and your colleague, Lieutenant Colonel

4 Morsink, and the first numbered paragraph refers to

5 your joint investigation into the events at Janjac.

6 Wouldn't you agree that the report is precisely as I've

7 just phrased it, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right, thank you. Now, do you know

10 whether anything was done to investigate these terrible

11 things on the part of the ABiH?

12 A. I cannot remember if there was a team put on

13 Janjac, but that was a normal procedure when we saw

14 things like that, that it was followed up by an

15 investigation --

16 Q. All right. Do you know if --

17 A. -- either by ECMM or UNPROFOR or --

18 Q. All right. The things that we've gone over,

19 as horrible as they are, really are not rumours. They

20 are things that you yourself and your colleagues at the

21 ECMM actually saw with your own eyes and verified as a

22 result of your investigations; isn't that correct?

23 A. If you look at Janjac as an isolated

24 incident, it was not on rumour. But a lot of the other

25 places we visited were -- there was nothing there to --

Page 7758

1 Q. Right. The things that I'm referring to,

2 though, are the houses that had been burned down, the

3 Croat houses, and you're not suggesting that the Croats

4 burned those houses down themselves, are you?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. The Croats that had been shot to death or

7 otherwise murdered, you're not suggesting that the

8 Croats were responsible for murdering their own people,

9 are you?

10 A. Things like that happened on both sides, I

11 think.

12 Q. One final question in this area, sir, and I

13 think we can depart it swiftly. It concerns an event

14 that occurred on June the 10th of 1993, when a shell

15 was fired from Stari Vitez and exploded in a children's

16 playground, literally blowing apart about eight

17 children there, and that event was filmed by the BBC.

18 Were you aware of that?

19 A. What was the name of the area?

20 Q. I believe the shell fell close to Gacice. If

21 you do, you do know about it, and if you don't, that's

22 fine.

23 A. What was the date?

24 Q. June the 10th, 1993, approximately between

25 6.00 and 8.00 in the evening, I believe.

Page 7759

1 A. At that time, I was not in that area. I was

2 operating in the Kakanj area.

3 Q. Very well. Around that time, June the 10th,

4 there was an ABiH offensive actually under way in

5 Kakanj, which resulted in the expulsion of about 15.000

6 Croat refugees from the town, ultimately?

7 A. Yes, and that's why I was in the Kakanj

8 area.

9 Q. Yes, sir. Let me turn to another subject

10 that you covered in your direction examination, the

11 fighting in Kiseljak.

12 The Kiseljak municipality was actually part

13 of Canton 7 under the Vance-Owen Plan; isn't that

14 right? That was going to be a Muslim-controlled

15 canton, I believe.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You tried initially to gain access to the

18 village of Gomionica, and you were stopped by one very

19 old man with a very old rifle, I believe.

20 A. Yes, at one of the checkpoints.

21 Q. At the other checkpoint, you were stopped by

22 troops who instructed you that they had received orders

23 from Mr. Ivica Rajic not to permit you to pass;

24 correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7760

1 Q. And he was the power in Kiseljak, so to

2 speak, wasn't he?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. SAYERS: I'd like to show you two

5 documents, one which you probably have not seen before

6 but is useful by way of background, and one which I

7 believe you may have seen before. The first is a

8 document that I -- dated the 19th of April, 1993, that

9 I would like to have marked as the next exhibit,

10 please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

12 D87/1.

13 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

14 While you're looking at this document, if I

15 could just have the usher mark the next exhibit,

16 please, I'm showing to you.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document D88/1.

18 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

19 Q. First of all, Major, have you ever heard of a

20 special forces unit of the ABiH known as the Black

21 Swans?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The first document, D87/1, it looks like an

24 order from Colonel Blaskic to the Ban Jelacic Brigade

25 in Kiseljak, and the fourth point in that order informs

Page 7761

1 the Ban Jelacic Brigade that in Colonel Blaskic's

2 estimation, an effort would be made by this

3 special-purpose unit, the Black Swans, to try to

4 infiltrate the ranks of the HVO in Kiseljak.

5 You've never seen this document before, I

6 take it, sir.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would it be fair to say that when you went to

9 Gomionica, you found, with one exception, no dead

10 bodies of civilians?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Indeed, when you actually went to Gomionica,

13 if you take a look at the next exhibit, there's a

14 reference on page 2, under item 5, to the fact that no

15 bodies were found, "except for one dead soldier from

16 the Muslim fraction," it says, but I take it that it

17 means "faction," "called Black Swan."

18 Is it fair to say that you actually saw this

19 dead soldier, since you were one of the authors of this

20 report?

21 A. This soldier, he was not found in Gomionica.

22 I cannot recall where he was found, but he was not in

23 Gomionica.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. I don't think it says that he was found in

Page 7762

1 Gomionica.

2 Q. Fair enough. It would be fair to say that

3 you found actually no bodies at all in Gomionica.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. But one of the special forces

6 units was found in one of the villages to the northwest

7 of Kiseljak on the 24th of April; is that right?

8 A. Actually, we don't know. He was an old man,

9 what you call, in this special unit. We were able to

10 identify him because of his, what are you calling it,

11 on his shoulder --

12 Q. Insignia on his shoulder?

13 A. Yes, on his shoulder. But as far as I can

14 recall, he was an old man. It could be someone put in

15 the uniform. Just because you are finding a dead body

16 in a uniform, it's not guaranteed that he belongs to

17 that force.

18 Q. I absolutely agree with you, Major, that

19 that's one possibility, but that's speculation, that he

20 was put into the uniform. We simply have no way of

21 determining that fact, do we?

22 A. We found a man in a uniform who belongs to

23 the Black Swans.

24 Q. Yes. Turning to June the 22nd, which is

25 drawing towards the end of your tour through Central

Page 7763

1 Bosnia, isn't it true that there was a rocket attack on

2 the town of Kiseljak, with the Croatian part of the

3 town hit by many rockets, resulting in the deaths of

4 several children and the wounding of several others?

5 A. No. It was actually in Vitez, but in the

6 translation from my Danish diary to maybe the Croatian

7 or the English, there's been some error. This attack

8 was in the Vitez area.

9 Q. Nonetheless, the Croatian part of Vitez was

10 hit by rockets --

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. -- and people were killed on the 22nd. All

13 right. That's fine.

14 A. It said in the diary that I was together

15 there with Pero Skopljak. It was not Pero Skopljak.

16 It was another man. I made a mistake in my diary. It

17 was not Pero Skopljak.

18 Q. That's no problem, sir, but --

19 A. But the attack was in the Croat part of

20 Vitez.

21 Q. In other words, the rockets landed in the

22 Croat part, and Croats were killed as a result of the

23 explosions.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes. Turning to one more subject, the

Page 7764

1 testimony that you gave regarding the village of

2 Rotilj. According to the special report that was

3 marked as Z818, the ECMM concludes that the village was

4 not defended by any BiH force. Are you sure that

5 that's the fact, or isn't it true that the village was

6 actually defended?

7 A. Rotilj?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I was not on the team who went in, which was

10 in the first days. I don't actually know.

11 Q. All right. Did you ever discuss with Colonel

12 Morsink the results of his findings regarding Rotilj

13 and the conversation that he had with the local HVO

14 commander about what happened in that village?

15 A. I cannot recall, no.

16 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say then,

17 sir, that you yourself actually do not know what

18 happened in Rotilj and that you would defer factually

19 to those who actually have more personal knowledge

20 about the facts of that event than you do?

21 A. Yes, because I was not in Rotilj just after

22 the incident, but a few days after.

23 Q. All right. And you don't recall having any

24 conversations with Colonel Morsink about that

25 particular subject?

Page 7765

1 A. Yes, I did, because I was there together with

2 him, but I cannot remember --

3 Q. All right. With the Trial Chamber's

4 indulgence, Colonel Morsink testified in the Blaskic

5 case on page 10024 as follows, the question was:

6 Q Tell us if you agree with your prior

7 statement on page 7 when you said that

8 you discussed this ...

9 and he refers to Rotilj.

10 ... with the local HVO commander and he

11 said, he claimed that villagers had

12 opened fire on his troops from a Muslim

13 house and that one HVO soldier had been

14 killed. Fighting had started and that

15 was when the Muslims had been killed and

16 seven Muslim houses were burnt. The

17 Muslims had handed over 20 weapons and

18 the young men taken to prison. I think

19 this story was accurate.

20 And the question was asked of Colonel

21 Morsink:

22 Q Is that a correct statement?

23 A That's a statement I made in my special

24 report, yes.

25 Q And do you believe it to be true?

Page 7766

1 And the response to that was:

2 A I believe it to be true.

3 Isn't that essentially what Colonel Morsink

4 told you as well when you discussed the events of

5 Rotilj with him?

6 A. When you asked me if there was any defence in

7 that area, I was thinking of BiH troops, but there were

8 no BiH troops. I could not remember if there were

9 inhabitants who tried to defend their own houses or

10 not, but the people killed in Rotilj were not people

11 who were trying to defend. I can remember there was a

12 woman who was raped. I don't think she was raped

13 because she tried to defend her home.

14 Q. Did you speak to that woman?

15 A. No. She was dead.

16 Q. So your conclusion about what happened to her

17 is really based upon what you were told by other

18 people; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. On the subject of gaols and

21 prisoners, just a few questions on this topic. You

22 actually visited, on April the 30th, 1993, a detention

23 facility in Kiseljak where you found 48 civilian

24 prisoners, all of whom were male and all of whom had

25 been treated well; isn't that true?

Page 7767

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Then you visited the main

3 military prison in Zenica on the 20th of April, ten

4 days earlier, and the conditions that you found there

5 were -- at least they're described in the English

6 version of your diary -- worse than a hen house. Is

7 that an accurate translation of what you recorded in

8 your diary on page 7?

9 A. When I mentioned that the conditions there

10 were bad, they were not that bad, but I referred not to

11 a hen house but another thing that the person who

12 translated it could not understand, because it's a

13 special Danish word or joke on it.

14 This was in a small room, but not that small,

15 and actually when I visited the different prisons down

16 there, I often mentioned that it seems to be okay.

17 When I say everything was -- the prisoners were treated

18 fair, they had bread and water and they were allowed to

19 have fresh air. It was not the Hotel Hilton, but they

20 were allowed to have something to eat and something to

21 drink and allowed to smoke cigarettes and have fresh

22 air.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. That was on both sides.

25 Q. Right. I mean, just to put an end to this

Page 7768

1 particular area, there were detentions of large numbers

2 of civilians on both sides, and would it be fair to say

3 that although the conditions were not, as you put it,

4 the Hotel Hilton, they were not outrageously bad or

5 particularly bad, in your view?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. You gave some testimony with

8 respect to communications. Let me just ask you, isn't

9 it a completely normal tactic in wartime to try to cut

10 the communication lines of the opposing forces?

11 A. Yes. Between the forces, yes.

12 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that you only

13 ever saw one large radio antenna in Vitez?

14 A. I remember seeing radio antennas in Vitez and

15 other places, but I cannot recall the different

16 places.

17 Q. All right. Now, on the subject of the Zenica

18 shelling of April the 19th, you've agreed that the

19 shelling of Zenica was fairly regular both before and

20 after April the 19th, 1993; right?

21 A. As I can recall, April the 19th was the first

22 attack with artillery against Zenica.

23 Q. Well --

24 A. And after that, it became on a daily basis.

25 Q. There's no question in your mind that the

Page 7769

1 Serb artillery positions due west of Zenica at Pajinik

2 [phoen] and just six kilometres northwest of Travnik,

3 they had the range to hit Zenica, did they not?

4 A. They did. On the later attack, they shelled

5 Zenica and they shelled the Croats in Vitez.

6 Q. So during the month of April, the Bosnian

7 Serb artillery in the Travnik area was shelling not

8 only Zenica, but also Vitez too?

9 A. Yes, to keep the kettle boiling, we think.

10 Q. Isn't it true that 130 people were actually

11 seriously wounded in a shelling incident on the 21st of

12 April, 1993, and that numerous uncounted people were

13 killed in that shelling incident too.

14 A. In Zenica?

15 Q. Yes. Well, your diary is in evidence. As I

16 see it, there was another shelling incident on May the

17 8th which you investigated.

18 A. What dates?

19 Q. May the 8th?

20 A. Say again.

21 Q. May the 8th.

22 A. May the 8th?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Sorry. Yes.

25 Q. And that resulted in your production of

Page 7770

1 actually a written report regarding that item, that

2 incident; isn't that correct, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But there was no written report that you

5 prepared regarding the April the 19th shelling

6 incident, was there?

7 A. Not from my part.

8 Q. Right. In fact, there's no reference in your

9 diary on April the 19th of having made any kind of

10 crater analysis or contemporary expert investigation of

11 the provenance of the shells, is there?

12 A. Not in the diary, because the diary was not

13 meant for this Court.

14 Q. Do you have any artillery expertise beyond

15 the training you received during basic training, sir?

16 A. I have been commanding units with artillery,

17 I have fired artillery myself --

18 Q. Twice? Did you say "twice"?

19 A. No, myself. So I have a lot of work with

20 artillery, but I'm not from the artillery.

21 Q. Would you describe yourself as an artillery

22 expert or not?

23 A. I'm not.

24 Q. All right. There's no question, though, that

25 contemporaneously in your diary, you recorded that the

Page 7771

1 shells were fired at 9.30 a.m., isn't that right, if

2 you turn to the April the 19th entry?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, it's true that Zenica had actually many

5 military headquarters; not only was it the headquarters

6 of the 3rd Corps, but also the 7th Muslim Brigade had a

7 headquarters there, as did the 314th Motorised Brigade,

8 and the military police, and also the 301st Mechanised

9 Brigade.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I asked you whether you knew the model of

12 howitzer that was used in this shelling incident, and

13 did I hear you say that you believed it to have been a

14 D30 model, or do you know?

15 A. Could have been.

16 Q. The maximum range of a D30-J is approximately

17 17,300 metres, as we covered. Is that consistent with

18 your understanding?

19 A. I think it's able to have a longer range than

20 that.

21 Q. All right. You would concede that what you

22 did in terms of a crater analysis does not qualify as

23 an exact science; wouldn't you agree with that, Major?

24 A. When you are looking at this impact, it's

25 actually very easy to see the direction from where the

Page 7772

1 shell had been fired, and when looking on the splash

2 marks and looking if you can find any of the shrapnel,

3 it should be easy to see the size of the weapon that

4 was used.

5 Q. All right. Did you perform any calculations

6 or consult any authoritative works regarding ballistics

7 to arrive at your conclusions?

8 A. We did not do that in the ECMM because we

9 were not assigned a military unit, but as far as I can

10 recall, some of the UNPROFOR units were asked to do

11 something.

12 Q. Basically, what you did was take a compass

13 and point it at what you considered to be the centre

14 line of the crater; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes, and we did that from three out of six

16 craters, and we found that they came from the same

17 direction.

18 Q. All right. Did you have the assistance of

19 the representatives of the 3rd Corps in performing your

20 investigation, sir?

21 A. Let me have that question again, please.

22 Q. There were, in fact, representatives of the

23 3rd Corps present as you were performing your

24 observations of the craters; isn't that correct?

25 A. I cannot recall if they were there on April

Page 7773

1 the 19th, but often when we were visiting an area where

2 we were doing some investigations in the BiH-held area,

3 we had representatives from BiH and some of their

4 experts, and we did the same when we were going to

5 investigate impacts on HVO areas; then there were

6 representatives from the HVO with us as well.

7 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that with

8 the exception of the April the 19th incident, your view

9 was that every other incident in which artillery was

10 used to shoot shells into Zenica, your view was that it

11 was the Bosnian Serb artillery that was responsible for

12 that damage?

13 A. As far as I can recall, yes, because its view

14 claimed that the BiH were shelling the Vitez area, and

15 BiH were claiming that the HVO were shelling Zenica.

16 Therefore, it was important for us to find out who was

17 responsible for the shellings, and if we couldn't tell

18 the HVO and the BiH that it was the Bosnian Serb army

19 that was shelling both of them, it would ...

20 Q. Let me just ask you to agree with me that at

21 17.300 metres, a ten-degree error, if you made an

22 error, would result in a deviation of 3.200 metres

23 regarding your analysis of the point of origin of the

24 shelling; would you agree with that?

25 A. How much did you say?

Page 7774

1 Q. Thirty-two hundred metres. You would not

2 agree with that? That's fine.

3 Do you know what the top of the -- or how

4 high the shell travelled, sir, how far above the

5 ground?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know that the maximum elevation point,

8 if you'd like, the apogee of the ballistic was actually

9 6.000 metres for a D30-J, 122-millimetre howitzer?

10 A. I can't recall all the different weapons, but

11 if you've looked it up --

12 Q. Do you know what the meteorological

13 conditions were on that day?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Isn't it fair to say that if you had, for

16 example, 12.000-metre winds at 6.000 feet, that would

17 result in a 500-metre deviation from a no-wind

18 condition?

19 A. Could be.

20 Q. Do you know whether the HVO actually had any

21 meteorological facilities?

22 A. Actually, the way we saw the use of artillery

23 in Bosnia, it didn't seem to us that they were experts

24 in using those weapons --

25 Q. Isn't it true --

Page 7775

1 A. -- because we didn't see any military target

2 hit by artillery. We only saw civilian areas hit by

3 artillery. If there had been any artillery of soldiers

4 who were able to guide the fire against the targets,

5 then they would have had hit the targets, but it seems

6 to us that they were just shelling just to shell an

7 area.

8 Q. Isn't it true that just a few days after you

9 performed the -- well, actually let me ask you one

10 other question. You simply do not know what the target

11 was on April the 19th by whoever was firing that

12 artillery, whatever calibre it was, and wherever it was

13 fired from, do you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Isn't it true that just a few days later, the

16 ECMM actually recommended the installation of

17 artillery-locating radar in the Zenica area to verify

18 which units were firing and their targets so that there

19 would be no question as to who was firing upon whom?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SAYERS: Just for the Trial Chamber's

22 information, I don't think there's any need for the

23 witness to look at this; I'd just like to mark the

24 daily operational report containing that recommendation

25 as an exhibit.

Page 7776

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, you are drawing to a

2 close.

3 MR. SAYERS: Yes. I had hoped that I'd be

4 through by now, but I think I have about five more

5 minutes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MAY: See how you get on towards a

7 quarter to.

8 MR. SAYERS: Do you want me to continue or

9 take --

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. SAYERS: All right.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Document D89/1.

13 MR. SAYERS: Just for the Trial Chamber's

14 information, the item that I read was on page 2, under

15 paragraph 8.

16 Q. One other document I would just like to show

17 you, Major, is the daily report that I believe that you

18 and a colleague of yours prepared regarding the May the

19 8th shelling.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

21 D90/1.


23 Q. I'm just showing you document D90/1, Major.

24 That is a copy of the report that you actually prepared

25 regarding the shelling incident that occurred on May

Page 7777

1 the 8th; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you were asked some questions in

4 connection with the order signed by Colonel Blaskic.

5 Isn't it --

6 JUDGE MAY: If you're going on to another

7 topic, it may be more convenient to deal with it

8 tomorrow.

9 MR. SAYERS: Very well, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: You've got about five minutes,

11 Mr. Sayers?

12 MR. SAYERS: Five minutes, I would say.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic?

14 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, my best

15 estimation, probably something more than one hour.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will sit

17 tomorrow. Yes, we'll sit at 2.30 tomorrow, and I hope

18 we shall be able -- we must get through the witness,

19 and also it would be convenient to have the legal

20 argument too, so everybody should be prepared for

21 that.

22 MR. NICE: Until what time is the Court

23 thinking of sitting tomorrow? I have decided, I think,

24 not to call another witness, but if there was going to

25 be a substantial amount of the afternoon, it's just

Page 7778

1 possible I could reorganise a witness and start one who

2 could come back in many weeks' time.

3 JUDGE MAY: No. We shall have to adjourn at

4 4.30 tomorrow.

5 MR. NICE: In which case, I'll take the

6 decision and I'll not call another witness tomorrow.

7 He will be part heard, in any event. Thank you.


9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 4.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

11 the 30th day of September, 1999, at

12 2.30 p.m.