Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9455

1 Thursday, 4th November, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 WITNESS: WITNESS T [resumed]:

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

8 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosector versus Dario

9 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

10 JUDGE MAY: It should be noted for the

11 transcript that Judge Robinson is back with us today;

12 however, he will have to be absent for some time next

13 week.

14 MR. NICE: Before I move on in accordance

15 with the summary, there were some photographs which

16 weren't available yesterday but are available today to

17 help. May they be distributed as a group of four black

18 and white photocopies for the Bench, and may the

19 originals in due course go onto the ELMO.

20 And if the usher would take from me a plan

21 that I've marked. And I hope nobody would object to

22 it. It is a general indication. And lay the bit with

23 the red markings on the ELMO so that it can be seen. A

24 little bit further so that we can get the other one in

25 as well. Thank you very much.

Page 9456

1 Examined by Mr. Nice:

2 Q. May the witness, please, have the colour

3 photographs in sequence. Would you look at the first

4 one. Put it on the ELMO, perhaps, so that everyone can

5 see.

6 Does that show the road leading up to the --

7 I've forgotten the name -- the villa, which was the

8 headquarters?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if we take the photograph off and look at

11 what I've marked. Just take the photograph off,

12 please. I've marked as "1" in red -- you can't see it

13 now. Yes, we can. There it is. Marked as "1", a

14 place. Is it consistent with a view from that place

15 looking up towards the villa?

16 A. No. This is the villa. You can see part of

17 the villa here [indicates]. And as for the view from

18 the villa vis-a-vis --

19 Q. I am going to stop you. If you look at the

20 position marked number "1" on the plan. Perhaps the

21 usher would just point that out to you. Where I've

22 marked a number "1," is the photograph consistent with

23 having been taken from there, please?

24 Your Honour, it wasn't possible to go through

25 the photographs with this witness yesterday. They

Page 9457

1 weren't yet developed.

2 Can we --

3 A. That's this part over here [indicates], the

4 villa is here. It's marked over here.

5 Q. The next photograph --

6 A. So it --

7 Q. Can we see here the villa with a balcony in

8 front of it, and is that the view that you would get if

9 standing in the position, roughly standing in the

10 position marked "2," where the usher will point his

11 finger on the plan? Number "2" is the view there.

12 Roughly, what you would get from number "2" looking up

13 to the villa?

14 A. The villa is above number "2," that is to say

15 above this road.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. Right here [indicates].

18 Q. The next photograph number. Does this, and

19 the following photograph -- and they may be laid side

20 by side, I think, so that we can see them both together

21 on the ELMO -- does this show a view down towards the

22 three that we can see fish ponds used for the

23 cultivation of salmon?

24 A. [Indicates] The photograph over here was

25 taken from here, from this road. This is the fish

Page 9458

1 pond, part of it. And up here are the buildings that

2 were built subsequently, the rest homes.

3 Q. Thank you very much. I can return now to the

4 summary. Thank you very much to the usher.

5 Witness T, this morning we must move at a

6 faster speed because of the requirements of other

7 witnesses and so on. So I am going to ask you a number

8 of questions which I hope you won't think it rude of

9 me. I would like you to answer, if you can, simply yes

10 or no, and then we'll move on that much more quickly.

11 I am at paragraph 68. At about the -- in the

12 summer of 1992, did you notice any soldiers coming from

13 outside Busovaca? Just yes or no. And if the answer

14 is yes --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- what did their insignia show them to be?

17 What did their insignia show them to have come from?

18 A. They did not wear any insignia, but their

19 accents showed that they came from Herzegovina, the way

20 they pronounced words.

21 Q. Did you see any other insignia at that stage

22 indicating people coming from outside

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. No. [Realtime transcript read in error

25 "Yes"].

Page 9459

1 Q. Yes? Well, if it was yes, where from?

2 A. My assumption is that they were from

3 Herzegovina. That's Grude, Siroki Brijeg, Mostar and

4 the like.

5 Q. I want to turn now, first of all, to

6 something that you can deal with very briefly. In

7 October was there a conflict between the Muslims and

8 the Croats in Novi Travnik, and by November of 1992 had

9 the situation in Busovaca got worse, with looting and

10 bombing of Muslim shops and with the HVO placing

11 restrictions on the movements of Muslims?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Paragraph 71. On or about the 20th of

14 January 1993, had you gone for coffee with a man called

15 Mirsad Delija?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On your return, did you notice something of

18 the movements of a particular motor car? If so, tell

19 us the colour and what you saw of its licence plate.

20 A. The vehicle was a white Golf and it had an

21 HVO licence plate without any numbers, and there was a

22 chequerboard sign.

23 Q. What did this vehicle do?

24 A. As we were moving from town towards the

25 houses, we were stopped on two occasions from the

Page 9460

1 direction of Ravne. At certain moments the lights

2 would change; that is to say that they would light the

3 road in different ways, to a greater or to a lesser

4 extent, and they would pass by us.

5 Q. How many times did the vehicle pass you by?

6 A. Twice.

7 Q. When you got to your house, did you invite

8 Mirsad Delija to join you, but did he in fact go to his

9 mother's house, his mother being alone?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At some time, perhaps 25 minutes later, did

12 you hear firing and did you hear Mirsad's sister

13 Zumetra screaming for help, in consequence of which did

14 you go to Mirsad's house and find him on the ground,

15 having been shot several times? Was he then taken to

16 Zenica dying on the way?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just, please, yes or no to this question:

19 Did you discuss this issue with Mirsad's brother Arif

20 Delija?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just yes or no: Did he tell you what had

23 happened earlier that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. From what he told you, had he, Arif Delija,

Page 9461

1 been personally present at the events that he was

2 describing to you? Just yes or no.

3 A. No.

4 Q. Maybe my question needs further

5 clarification. I don't want to know the detail of what

6 Delija told you, but according to what he said, had he

7 been present with his brother earlier that day?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And was he, Arif Delija, then able to tell

10 you what his brother Mirsad had been doing that day?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Why not, if he had been present with him?

13 A. On that day, he was not with his brother

14 Mirsad. He was with his other brother, Miralem

15 Delija.

16 Q. And therefore what was the source of your

17 information about what had happened to Mirsad?

18 A. From his brother Arif Delija, actually Mirsad

19 had been killed in Busovaca in '92, '93, in January.

20 Arif Delija belonged to the Territorial Defence in the

21 local commune of Kacuni, so at that point in time, they

22 had not been together.

23 Q. So for the duration -- as you understood it,

24 for the totality of this day, who had been with

25 Mirsad? Was it Miralem, or was it Arif, or was it both

Page 9462

1 of them?

2 A. On that day it was I, personally, who was

3 with Mirsad.

4 Q. Yes, but earlier in the day, who had been

5 with Mirsad?

6 A. None of his brothers.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, you've been asking

8 about this for some time; I wonder if there is any

9 point in pursuing it.

10 MR. NICE: It's obviously a very important

11 piece of evidence --

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but --

13 MR. NICE: -- and it would be, of course, one

14 of a number of pieces of evidence going to the overall

15 issue, which we would invite you in due course to

16 consider collectively, but Your Honour sees the

17 difficulties that I presently encounter.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. NICE: May I ask one question which I

20 hope won't, as it were, go to the content, but will

21 just give me a chance to establish the route of

22 information; and then, if it's not satisfactory, I'll

23 move on.

24 Q. I want you, please, Witness T, to listen

25 quite carefully to this question, and just to answer it

Page 9463

1 in the precise way I invite you to do so, because it's

2 to do with various rules we have in these courts.

3 Don't tell us what was said to have happened at a

4 particular place, for example a checkpoint, earlier in

5 the day, but can you tell us the route by which you

6 learnt the information? By that I mean, if you can

7 explain that it was Mr. X who told Mr. Y, who then told

8 you, or if it was simply Mr. X who told you. That's

9 all I want to know: the route by which the information

10 came to you.

11 First of all, do you understand my question?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then can you tell me, please, or tell the

14 Court, please, the route by which you learnt

15 information of what happened at a particular

16 checkpoint?

17 A. I personally was told about this by Arif

18 Delija in September 1993.

19 Q. And Arif Delija had learnt it how?

20 A. From his brother Miralem.

21 Q. Is either of those brothers still alive?

22 A. No, not a single one of them.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. NICE: It seems it does come from one

25 brother via another. In light of the death of both of

Page 9464

1 those intervening witnesses, it is the only source of

2 information available to us. We have already heard

3 quite a lot of evidence surrounding this event; there

4 may be further evidence confirmatory of the account

5 given. In particular, if the Court looks at paragraph

6 75 and at what is said there in the second line, there

7 is a named witness there who will be or may be coming

8 to help us, and I'd ask the Court to admit the evidence

9 on the usual basis that its weight can be considered at

10 a later stage. To exclude it now would be to deny

11 forever the chance of it being part of the overall

12 evidential picture.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I do

15 apologise. I was waiting for the end of the

16 interpretation.

17 I listened to all of this very carefully

18 because I was afraid that the witness would be led to

19 an answer, but I think it is quite clear now that it is

20 double hearsay at the least. The Defence has no

21 opportunity of checking this out from the person from

22 which this witness heard about what had happened at

23 this checkpoint, so our objection is that this is at

24 least double hearsay.

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider it.

Page 9465

1 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

2 JUDGE MAY: We will admit this evidence. We

3 notice the criticisms which are made of it. The

4 weight, of course, is something which we will have to

5 determine. By itself, it would not be sufficient to

6 draw any inference, probably.

7 MR. NICE: Thank you.

8 Q. Witness T, will you tell us, please, what you

9 learnt from the other two men, the brothers, about what

10 had happened earlier that day at a certain checkpoint?

11 A. Miralem Delija, who was at the Kacuni

12 checkpoint then -- I mean, they stopped vehicles that

13 were coming back from Kiseljak to Busovaca for the

14 purpose of identification, in order to identify persons

15 and passengers. Among others in these vehicles was

16 Kordic. Then there was also Bozo Rajic, and there was

17 Kostroman, a professor of chemistry from Vitez; in

18 fact, the entire delegation of the HDZ which had had a

19 meeting in Kiseljak.

20 Miralem just wanted to record the fact that

21 they had passed, and he wanted to see their IDs, and

22 that was the duty of this checkpoint, and then he

23 wanted to let them go. However, since they knew each

24 other personally, Dario Kordic and Miralem Delija,

25 Kordic insulted and humiliated both the checkpoint and

Page 9466

1 the insignia that he wore and himself personally.

2 He thought -- I mean Miralem thought that

3 this was not right. With the other men there, he

4 disarmed his escorts and the other men from the

5 delegation and took them in the direction of the

6 silos.

7 About 30 or 40 minutes later, they were all

8 released from the silos, with their weapons and with

9 their vehicles, at the intervention and request of

10 Husein Hadzimejlic and others who were then in command

11 in the Territorial Defence, who insisted that they

12 should be released, and in fact they were released.

13 As they were leaving the checkpoint, because

14 again this same delegation went by the same checkpoint,

15 Dario Kordic said to Miralem Delija, in passing, that

16 he would remember this well.

17 Q. Did Miralem and Mirsad live in the same house

18 or in different houses?

19 A. They lived in different houses.

20 Q. How long after the release of these men, as

21 you understood it, was Mirsad killed at his house?

22 A. After leaving the checkpoint and after Dario

23 Kordic's remark, no more than 45 minutes went by.

24 Q. I am now going to turn to questions that I

25 think you will be able to deal with by yes/no answers.

Page 9467

1 And I will be assisted if my friends opposite read a

2 paragraph or so ahead and indicate when they want me to

3 do otherwise.

4 Is it right that the conflict between Muslims

5 and Croats in Busovaca started on the 26th of January?

6 A. Yes, but that was the open conflict. And by

7 that I mean an armed conflict.

8 Q. On the morning of the 26th and 27th, starting

9 at about 5.15, did the HVO go through Busovaca, both

10 disarming and capturing Muslims, and was a man called

11 Floro Glavocevic using a loudspeaker, instructing

12 Muslims to surrender and turn over their arms, saying

13 that HVO would guarantee their safety?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 A. (redacted)

22 Q. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Was the commander of the local police, Ante

25 Sliskovic, the commander of the military police, Vlado

Page 9468

1 Cosic, and were you in fact not interrogated but taken

2 to Kaonik Camp?

3 A. The commander of the civilian police was

4 Kristo and the commander of the military police was

5 Vlado Cosic. I was not interrogated. I was taken to

6 the camp in Kaonik.

7 Q. Paragraph 81 --

8 A. With everybody else.

9 Q. First, were you held in a hangar, some 10

10 metres by 60 metres, where your estimate is that there

11 were some 380 prisoners and where you were detained for

12 some three days?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Paragraph 83. Did the HVO come to the

15 hangar, read off lists of names of those to be

16 interrogated on the grounds that they were alleged to

17 have formed an Islamic municipality, and were others

18 alleged to be extremist fundamentalists or commanders

19 of Mujahedin units?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you hear of others being used as human

22 shields?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you aware of Muslim prisoners being

25 taken, tied by a rope with about one metre between each

Page 9469

1 man, to villages, where they would be sent in ahead of

2 the HVO, who would come behind, equipped with weapons

3 and loudspeakers, enforcing the surrender of local

4 Muslims?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you aware of that clearance of villages

7 happening at Skradno, Loncari, Strane and Rovna?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 87. Between the 29th

10 and 30th of January, or thereabouts, were new cells

11 made and were you taken from the hangar and placed in

12 those cells, each being some three by four metres in

13 size and containing some 20 men?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were not beaten, but one of your brothers

16 was. Please don't name him.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you used to dig trenches at different

19 locations, and in particular at Donja Solakovici, Kula

20 and Skradno?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The guards included a neighbour, whom you've

23 named, but I won't identify. Did the guards inspire

24 some fear in you, wearing paint on their faces and

25 sometimes wearing black uniforms with swastikas on

Page 9470

1 them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. 93. In the course of trench-digging, were

4 two men, to your knowledge, killed: one, Nermin

5 Elezovic, who went out -- paragraph 94 -- to the

6 general area of Kula, where, under the direction of a

7 former schoolmate, whom you've named, was that man,

8 Elezovic, sent to an area of Donji Solakovici, where he

9 was killed in a Croat house?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Your Honour, paragraphs 95 and 96 come in the

12 source of information from others. I'm not going to

13 pursue it in the setting of this case.

14 97. Was another prisoner, Sehovic, killed in

15 the course of trench-digging that same night?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes. Part of 97, really, is subject of a

18 separate paragraph, but I'll deal with it. In the

19 course of your time at Kaonik, did you see Sliskovic

20 there at the time when prisoners were exchanged?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was there a man named Cakara, who, as you

23 understood it, left the camp, never to be seen alive

24 again?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9471

1 Q. At the eventual exchange of prisoners, to

2 your knowledge, did the defendant Kordic play any role?

3 A. I can say that he must have known of

4 everything that was going on in the area.

5 Q. Paragraph 101. Was there one particular

6 Muslim family, not necessarily now to be named, who was

7 well-known to Kordic or to his family?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was that particular Muslim family the subject

10 of different and preferential treatment throughout the

11 conflict?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did they never lose their property nor,

14 indeed, their jobs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Paragraph 104. On the exchange organised by

17 the Red Cross, did you elect to return to Busovaca, and

18 between the 25th of February and the 1st of April of

19 1993 was there an effective ceasefire between Croats

20 and Muslims, and in the course of that ceasefire were

21 Muslim -- or perhaps Muslim householders given a

22 document signed by Kordic and Sliskovic which stated

23 that non-Croats were under HVO protection in respect of

24 property and possessions?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9472

1 Q. The Court already has the document 861, I

2 think. Yes, it's 861 and 861,1. Those can be shown

3 briefly to the witness.

4 JUDGE MAY: What we don't have -- or I don't

5 appear to have a translation.

6 MR. NICE: Coming up right now. It will be

7 861,1(a). If the English version translation can be

8 placed on the ELMO, please. Well, perhaps not, because

9 it identifies someone, but not this defendant.

10 Q. Does the body of the statement read as

11 translated into English? It's dated the 1st of May and

12 it says:

13 "Pursuant to demonstrated need, after finding

14 that certain members of the Busovaca HVO units whose

15 residential buildings had been destroyed in combat

16 operations in the area of Busovaca municipality were

17 trying to solve their existential problems by force,

18 and with the aim of preventing such occurrences and

19 protecting the safety of persons and property for all

20 citizens, regardless of their political, religious and

21 national affiliation, I hereby issue --" then there is

22 the name of a resident, "-- of Busovaca the following

23 certificate whereby it is forbidden to Busovaca HVO

24 members to harass the above-named person and members of

25 his family, threaten the safety of their person and

Page 9473

1 property and take any wilful actions which would result

2 in a threat to the safety of their person and

3 property. The strictest measures envisaged by law

4 shall be taken against the perpetrators."

5 And the signature is not as I forecast, but

6 the signatures are Grubesic, Maric and Kordic.

7 Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What happened to your personal version of

10 such a certificate?

11 A. My copy, in fact the original, was torn up at

12 a doorstep -- at my doorstep in Busovaca by masked,

13 armed persons who were in the habit of coming on a

14 daily basis to loot, taking money and gold, under the

15 pretence that for them such certificates meant nothing.

16 Q. The version you produced, which has a

17 neighbour's name on it, is similar to the copy that you

18 have for yourself?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. May this Exhibit please be under seal.

21 Paragraph 108. Did, in your judgement, the

22 mistreatment of Muslims continue between March and

23 August of 1993?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Paragraph 111. Was a group of some 160

Page 9474

1 Muslims formed who were compelled to dig trenches in

2 groups, the groups themselves being rotated in and out

3 of trench-digging jobs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you used to dig trenches around Loncari?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you see some two Muslims killed in the

8 course of trench-digging work?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Paragraph 109. Were you also used, between

11 March and September, as a human shield at Strane, Kula

12 and Komari? And Komari?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you leave Busovaca late 1993, eventually

15 going in the direction of Zenica, not returning to

16 Busovaca since?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Have you produced to the Prosecution a

19 wartime newspaper, or many pages from a wartime

20 newspaper?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you actually have the original with you

23 this morning, or is it still back at the hotel room?

24 A. I have it on me.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, what I've done here,

Page 9475

1 in order to avoid burdening the Court with unnecessary

2 paperwork, is I have had copied all of the newspaper

3 for the Defence, and I've distributed it to them last

4 night. It contains a number of articles, but locked

5 within the articles are three orders and one

6 photograph, and it's the orders and photograph that I

7 wish to produce. I can do it swiftly, save for the

8 fact that by my oversight, there is no official

9 translation of the one order I may need to look at in

10 detail.

11 The Court should have, I hope, a small clutch

12 of four documents that looks like this, an enlarged

13 newspaper extract; and if the Court has those, from

14 this newspaper --

15 JUDGE MAY: Well, we haven't. We've merely

16 got a photograph.

17 MR. NICE: I'm sorry; I don't know what's

18 gone wrong, then, on that. The Defence were provided

19 with them yesterday, and there's obviously something

20 gone wrong with our distribution.

21 No, those are the original documents as

22 tendered.

23 I see what's happened. I see what's

24 happened. Can I make available to the usher for laying

25 on the ELMO, please, a clutch of four documents which

Page 9476

1 will be copied at the break and made available to the

2 Court as already to the Defence. And if we look at

3 them in the order in which they turn up, if the usher

4 would be so good.


6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

7 with your permission, a comment on the documents which

8 the Prosecutor is trying to tender. We received a copy

9 of the newspapers which the witness has brought along

10 last night. These are newspapers from July of 1993,

11 and that newspaper was distributed only by the Muslim

12 side. That is, that was a Muslim media outlet, very

13 hostile towards the Croats, and that can be gleaned

14 just by the perusal of the newspaper, where, in many

15 places, instead of "Croats," the Croats are labelled as

16 "Ustashas."

17 JUDGE MAY: We follow that. This is a

18 comment about the weight.

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] This was just

20 a preliminary remark. Our objection is that we are not

21 opposed to the introduction of the document regarding

22 the establishment of Herceg-Bosna; we know about this

23 document. But the document labelled as -- marked 248,2

24 is something we have not seen before, and we have

25 grounds for doubting its veracity and authenticity.

Page 9477

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] What

2 document are you speaking about? What is this really

3 about, Mr. Naumovski?

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] The copy is

5 marked Z248,2. This is what we received from the

6 Prosecution last night. And I would like to point out

7 to the Trial Chamber the last sentence, and I have

8 never seen anything like that in any document ever

9 produced by the Croatian side, which actually is the

10 grounds for my questioning its authenticity.

11 It would seem, on the basis of this document,

12 that the command staff of the 1st Battalion had ordered

13 that somebody be executed should they oppose or resist

14 the carrying out of this order. And also there was

15 another document introduced by the Prosecutor earlier,

16 that was Z62, which obviously is a copy of one of the

17 newspapers from the same bundle.

18 As Defence counsel for Mr. Kordic, I can say

19 that neither Mr. Kordic nor we as a team have any

20 knowledge of this source, and given the source, this

21 newspaper, we unfortunately have to question its

22 veracity.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, it's difficult to deal

24 with these matters without a translation.

25 MR. NICE: Yes, and the document only came

Page 9478

1 yesterday, and --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,

3 please.

4 MR. NICE: Sorry.

5 It's difficult to deal, indeed, without

6 translation. The documents only came yesterday, and

7 the one document that I should have given absolute

8 priority to translation, I failed to do, and all I've

9 got is an on-sight translation. Can I explain,

10 however, what the position is.

11 There are three orders that are produced in

12 the newspaper. Two of them have already been produced

13 in either similar or identical formats already, and

14 that would tend to show the reliability of the

15 newspaper, at least in respect of those orders.

16 The third order is not one that we have

17 sourced from anywhere else. This is the best version,

18 as it were, that we have of this document, true or

19 false. We would invite it to be adduced now, weight

20 for later. I'm sorry, "weight"; I mean the weight of

21 the evidence obviously coming later.

22 JUDGE MAY: Can we find out where the witness

23 got the newspaper from, and let's have a look at the

24 original.

25 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly.

Page 9479

1 Q. Witness T, can you produce, please, the

2 original of the newspaper and show it to us, and can

3 you tell us, please, where you obtained that newspaper

4 from and in what circumstances.

5 A. The circumstances which compelled me to ask

6 for this newspaper is such that in these newspapers, a

7 statement was given by an individual who witnessed the

8 murder of my brother. So that was the reason why I

9 looked for this newspaper, and the purpose was to

10 locate the person who survived and who would give me a

11 first-hand account on my brother. And in time, this

12 corroborated the statements and reports which appeared

13 in the newspaper.

14 Q. And it just so happened that the same edition

15 of the newspaper, the original of which is probably

16 quite valuable to you as a personal item, it just so

17 happened that that newspaper also contained set out

18 within it three orders and one photograph that we took

19 copies of yesterday?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

22 Mr. Naumovski, this is a newspaper. A newspaper

23 remains a newspaper. As Mr. Nice said yesterday, we

24 shouldn't forget that these are professional judges in

25 front of you; we know what a newspaper is. We also

Page 9480

1 know what a tendentious newspaper is. There's a

2 certain orientation in this newspaper. We're not going

3 to spend forever with this newspaper. It's worth what

4 it's worth. It's a newspaper article. Now what we

5 have to do is to have a translation of the article so

6 we can at least know what's in it, but I don't think we

7 have to spend forever speaking about this. The

8 Prosecutor has brought in a newspaper article brought

9 in by one of the witnesses; it's worth what it's

10 worth. So we're still talking about the weight, as my

11 colleague said a few minutes ago. That's what we're

12 dealing with, and not with something which should take

13 up the Tribunal's time.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let us return the newspaper

15 to the witness. It may be sensible to adjourn now and

16 try and get some translations.

17 MR. NICE: I have an unofficial draft

18 translation. I know the rules of the Translation Unit

19 here are properly strict, but if we can distribute that

20 temporarily and if I can get the people in the booth

21 simply to translate the last and, I understand,

22 contentious passage at the witness's reading it, that

23 may bring me to the end of this witness's

24 examination-in-chief. Would that be a suitable

25 course?

Page 9481


2 MR. NICE: May the four sheets of paper be

3 laid before the witness --

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

5 before we get to that point, you have to first tell us

6 yourself why you have brought in that newspaper

7 article. Perhaps that could help us. What is the

8 interest of having brought that newspaper article in,

9 other than the interest that the witness has just

10 mentioned?

11 MR. NICE: Both for the third order, which

12 we -- of which we don't have any sight independently.

13 We have the first two; they're already produced -- and

14 for the photograph that you'll see very shortly.

15 So can you lay it on the ELMO, please.

16 Q. Does the first order, or is the first order

17 set out in the newspaper an order of the 21st of March,

18 1992, and the Court will know from its records, or I

19 can inform it in due course, an order to the like

20 effect has already been produced by another witness.

21 MR. NICE: The second sheet, please.

22 Q. The 23rd of October, 1992, is a second order,

23 again, already produced -- I beg your pardon.

24 MR. NICE: This is the one which is not

25 produced. Can I distribute now, please, to the Court,

Page 9482

1 some draft translations, and to Defence counsel.

2 One more coming. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, you mentioned the two

4 other orders.

5 MR. NICE: Yes, the following --

6 JUDGE MAY: It would be helpful to know what

7 their numbers are.

8 MR. NICE: Certainly. The first exhibit, the

9 23rd of March, was Exhibit 62, and it was produced on

10 the 23rd of April of this year by an open witness,

11 Cicak.

12 JUDGE MAY: And what was it about?

13 MR. NICE: It was a request for a meeting

14 with Susak and setting out the attendance of various

15 people.

16 The other order that was produced is dated

17 the 10th of April of 1992. It's Exhibit 71, and it was

18 the establishment of the Croatian Defence Council. And

19 so those two --

20 JUDGE MAY: They are in the clip, actually.

21 We have them.

22 MR. NICE: So this is the third one, and what

23 I would invite the Chamber to do, bearing in mind that

24 a proper translation will be forthcoming in due course,

25 would be perhaps to read for themselves, rather than

Page 9483

1 read into any part of the public record, an at-sight

2 translation, and I will get the witness simply to read

3 out the last passage, which is the particularly

4 contentious passage so far as the Defence are concerned

5 for purposes of any cross-examination.

6 If the Chamber will be good enough to read it

7 to themselves, they will see its potential

8 significance, if a true document.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

10 you're telling us that this document is authentic. Do

11 you intend to show any proof that it is authentic? Or

12 are you going to limit yourself to that press article?

13 MR. NICE: At the moment, having just myself

14 seen the article for the first time yesterday because

15 the witness brought the newspaper yesterday, I am

16 producing it for what it is. It comes along with other

17 orders that are apparently genuine, and our inquiries

18 will continue.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Obviously,

20 speaking for myself, I would say that for the time

21 being, we can understand that this type of document is

22 something which comes from the newspaper, from the

23 press, and with all reservations that that includes.

24 It cannot be constituent of a document which has any

25 kind of probative force in and of itself so long as it

Page 9484

1 has not been confirmed in a more official manner, so

2 long as there are no further elements to come to back

3 it up.

4 So as I said a few minutes ago, it remains

5 something which comes from a newspaper, and that's what

6 we will take it as.


8 Q. And Witness T, would you help us, please, to

9 this extent. You see on the screen in front of you a

10 document which has about two-thirds of the way down

11 some underlining. Would you just read out, fairly

12 slowly so that the translators can translate, the

13 sentence that is underlined and -- yes, just that

14 sentence, please, to start with.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Just read it out loud, please.

17 A. "All members of the BiH Army should be

18 disarmed --"

19 Q. Sorry. Carry on, yes.

20 A. "-- disarmed, imprisoned, and eventually

21 released after 24 hours. The Mujahedin should be

22 liquidated and the other members of the Muslim forces

23 should not be released pending further notice."

24 Q. And can you please look right at the bottom

25 of the document, literally the last sentence that you

Page 9485

1 can see there, please. Just read it out loud.

2 A. "The excerpt from this order is given on the

3 basis of an order of the command of Central Bosnia from

4 the 22nd of October 1992, on the basis of which public

5 mobilisation was proclaimed for all men fit for

6 military service. Members of the HVO who

7 convincingly --"

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness has misread

9 what the paper says, says the interpreter. The verb is

10 not --

11 A. "-- disarm." I can't see this. It's

12 illegible.

13 Q. Very well. A proper translation to be

14 provided soon.

15 JUDGE MAY: The exhibit number, please, of

16 this?

17 MR. NICE: The exhibit number of the whole

18 clutch is 248,2.

19 Q. May the witness see the last sheet.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Judges' microphones are

21 on.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The point is that, of

23 course, at the moment we've got this unofficial

24 translation and therefore it may be wrong to enter it

25 as an exhibit. But we'll give it this number pending

Page 9486

1 the official arrival, the official translation when it

2 can be formally admitted. But until that time it's not

3 an official exhibit; marked, Judge Robinson suggests,

4 for identification. That would be a sensible way to

5 deal with it.

6 MR. NICE: Thank you. And may the witness

7 now see the last of the four sheets on this -- of the

8 document that I placed before him, which is the

9 photograph.

10 Q. You see from the same photograph -- I beg

11 your pardon, from the same newspaper a photograph

12 showing Kostroman, Kordic and Blaskic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can one see in full an arm patch bearing

15 the insignia HVO?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you see anything of an arm patch on the

18 middle figure of the three, Kordic?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. And that is

21 248,2(a). Yes, wait there. You will be asked some

22 further questions.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now for half an

24 hour. We'll sit again at 11.15.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.45

Page 9487

1 --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I would just like to put some

4 numbers, right, of the exhibits. There was a document

5 submitted yesterday by the OTP, which was marked

6 248,2. This was this newspaper article. So this is

7 not yet admitted into evidence, but the unofficial

8 draft translation will be numbered 248/2A. And the

9 photograph will be numbered 248/2B.

10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

12 Your Honour. Before I start, I would like to intervene

13 on a certain point. I talked to my colleagues and we

14 looked at the transcript. In response to a question on

15 page 4 of today's transcript, line 24, the witness

16 answered in Croat "no"; however, the transcript says

17 "yes," and it should have been "no." So could the

18 stenographers check this out with the interpreters

19 later, please.

20 JUDGE MAY: What was the question?

21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] The question

22 was put by the Prosecutor whether the witness saw

23 insignia, insignia of persons who came out of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the answer was -- and then the

25 witness said from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 9488

1 So you can see from the sense of the sentence

2 that the answer had to be "no."

3 JUDGE MAY: That's what I recollect him

4 saying. Yes, well that can be put right.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

7 Q. Mr. T, may I introduce myself. I am Mitko

8 Naumovski. I am a defence attorney from Zagreb and I

9 am one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Dario Kordic. I

10 am going to put a few questions to you, but I have to

11 tell you in advance something that is usually said.

12 Since we understand each other full well when we start

13 speaking, we should wait for the interpretation to come

14 out in other languages.

15 My first question, perhaps we could start

16 with that, relates to what you heard had happened in

17 Kacuni. First of all, I am not sure whether you said

18 this. On which date did this occur in Kacuni; that is

19 to say, when these persons were stopped at the

20 checkpoint?

21 A. The date, in all fairness, I do not know for

22 sure, but I know that it was in January 1993, that is

23 to say before the killing of Mirsad Delija. That is to

24 say that it was during the night, according to the

25 information that I received, in the afternoon, between

Page 9489

1 5.00 and 6.00.

2 Q. I'm sorry, I did not understand. Was it the

3 same day or was it the day when Mirsad Delija was

4 killed, or not?

5 A. It was the same day.

6 Q. I would agree with you that it was in the

7 afternoon, around 4.00, if that's what you meant by

8 afternoon.

9 A. Yes, between 4.00 and -- well, it was

10 January, night-time, early night-time. There was a fog

11 and things like that.

12 Q. You said today for the first time that you

13 heard about this event from Arif Delija only in

14 September 1993?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But you were in contact with him before that,

17 weren't you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You saw him only then?

20 A. I was in Busovaca from the 28th of January,

21 1993 until the 15th of September, 1993. Arif Delija

22 was in the local commune of Kacuni; that is to say that

23 we were on two different sides.

24 Q. If I understood you correctly, he was a

25 soldier in the 33rd?

Page 9490

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Today you said this incident occurred at a

3 point in time when several people were coming to

4 Busovaca from Kiseljak?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you mentioned their names; that is,

7 Mr. Kordic, Mr. Kostroman, and a professor of

8 chemistry, you said?

9 A. Yes, Valentic (sic).

10 Q. Are you referring to Anto Valenta from Vitez?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. However, I have to tell you that as you made

13 two statements earlier on, you said that at that

14 checkpoint only two men were stopped and searched at

15 that checkpoint, that is to say Mr. Kordic and

16 Blaskic. Blaskic.

17 A. That's what I had heard. There is a

18 possibility of Blaskic having been there.

19 Q. You are not sure that Blaskic was there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. But today you mentioned the name of Bozo

22 Rajic for the first time. Are you sure that it was

23 those people who you mentioned today?

24 A. This is the way it was. The gentlemen who

25 were in the top leadership of the Croatian

Page 9491

1 institutions --

2 Q. Sorry that I am interrupting --

3 A. -- they held meetings every day, political

4 meetings in the hall of the Busovaca municipality.

5 Q. I am sorry. I have to interrupt you.

6 Please, could you answer the question that I put to

7 you? And it's a very simple question. You mentioned a

8 few persons today who were stopped at this checkpoint

9 and you never mentioned them before, and you made two

10 statements earlier on.

11 And you mentioned General Blaskic, and you

12 said that you were not sure whether he was there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Why do you mention these persons for the

15 first time today? A lot more time has gone by in the

16 meantime. I mean, until today rather than until the

17 day when you made your first statement.

18 A. Well, I was not there at the checkpoint, and

19 the delegation had had a meeting in Kiseljak on that

20 same date.

21 Q. If I understand you correctly, that's your

22 opinion?

23 A. Yes. Opinion.

24 Q. Can you tell me what you base this opinion

25 and conclusion of yours upon?

Page 9492

1 A. Conclusion? I base my opinion and conclusion

2 on the assumption that these persons had a meeting in

3 the municipality of Busovaca afterwards.

4 Q. But you're not sure of that; that's only your

5 assumption?

6 A. Yes, that's my assumption.

7 Q. So what you told us today about what happened

8 in Kacuni --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- I mean, the persons who were stopped, that

11 is your assumption, isn't it?

12 A. Among others, well, yes.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

14 with your permission, I would like to put our position

15 to the witness right now, and I don't want really to

16 waste much time over this.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. T, I have to tell you the pure truth, and

20 that is that Mr. Kordic was not in Kacuni during those

21 days at all, and he was not stopped at that

22 checkpoint.

23 Yes, please go ahead.

24 A. That's your opinion.

25 Q. No, that's a fact. I'm going to tell you who

Page 9493

1 was stopped.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, it's the witness

3 who gives evidence. You can make suggestions and put

4 matters to him.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

6 The witness asked me, so I answered. I'm sorry.

7 Q. On that day, Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Blaskic

8 were stopped, but they were going from Busovaca to

9 Kiseljak, not the other way around. Do you know that?

10 A. What about Dario Kordic?

11 Q. Well, please answer my question first.

12 A. I did not know the direction. I stand by

13 that.

14 Q. Now, my other question related to

15 Mr. Kordic: Mr. Kordic did not leave Busovaca during

16 those days at all. In view of your assumptions, the

17 ones that you mentioned.

18 A. Yes?

19 Q. So what do you say to that?

20 A. Well, this is the way it is. My opinion is

21 that some people were stopped there, and the assumption

22 leads to one name at least. My source of information

23 is almost accurate. The witnesses, unfortunately, all

24 three brothers, all three Delija brothers, were

25 killed. Somebody had issued an order after all to

Page 9494

1 liquidate Mirsad Delija.

2 Q. Mr. T, I have to interrupt you. The Defence

3 never claimed that Mirsad Delija had not been killed.

4 We are not claiming that. We are now talking about

5 what happened in Kacuni at that checkpoint. If I

6 understand your assumptions correctly, you actually do

7 not know whether Mr. Kordic was there or not; is that

8 right?

9 JUDGE MAY: I think -- just a moment,

10 please. I think you've taken this as far as you can

11 with the witness, Mr. Naumovski. You've put your case

12 to him. The witness has told us what he heard and

13 where he heard it from. He's not saying, of course,

14 that he was there at the time. I don't think you can

15 really take it any further.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] You see, the

17 witness spoke of his assumptions, and then some names

18 perhaps were mentioned involved in these assumptions

19 and others were not, and he did not say which names

20 were part of his assumptions. But if you believe that

21 enough light has been thrown on this, then we may

22 proceed.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. So, Mr. T, I'll take you back to the

Page 9495

1 beginning. You gave your first statement on 27

2 September 1996, to the Centre for Public Security in

3 Zenica; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you please say "yes," because nodding

6 cannot be taken down.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also gave a statement to the

9 investigators of this Tribunal at the end of January of

10 this year?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you also perhaps give a statement to the

13 agency for investigation of war crimes?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the presidency? When did you give that

16 statement?

17 A. Perhaps in '95, '96.

18 Q. Was a record taken? In other words, was it

19 written down?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you perhaps have that statement on you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I thought that perhaps you had it, because we

24 don't.

25 You will agree with me that whenever you gave

Page 9496

1 a statement on what you knew, you spoke to the best of

2 your recollection?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You spoke about things that you knew to the

5 best of your knowledge?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us, please, what is your

8 profession?

9 A. I am a craftsman.

10 Q. Do you still work as a craftsman today?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us, where did you work in 1991

13 and 1992?

14 A. I worked in the steelworks until '91.

15 Q. In Zenica?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And after that, were you employed, or not?

18 A. I was laid off. I could not move and go to

19 Zenica freely and could not go for medical care, since

20 I had a leg injury, and I could not go there for my

21 regular medical exams and for the disability

22 commission.

23 Q. You're talking about the period when

24 thousands of Croats who lived in Busovaca, Vitez, and

25 had worked in Zenica, were left jobless?

Page 9497

1 A. At that time, both Croats and Muslims, a

2 large number of those employed in the steelworks in

3 Zenica had taken the two-year salary, and then some of

4 them left Central Bosnia altogether.

5 Q. Very well. Let's not dwell on that.

6 When did you leave Busovaca? 1993, 1994?

7 When was it?

8 A. Late 1993 is when I was mobilised in the

9 ABiH, and I remained in the army until the end of 1996.

10 Q. What unit were you in?

11 A. 303rd.

12 Q. You mean 303rd, or 333rd?

13 A. 333rd.

14 Q. That was in Busovaca?

15 A. Around Busovaca.

16 Q. So it was in the territory of the Busovaca

17 municipality, nevertheless?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in the course of 1992, you were a member

20 of the Territorial Defence in Busovaca?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Along with Arif Delija and many other people?

23 A. Yes, and many Croats, because a number of

24 Croats were also members of the Territorial Defence.

25 Q. Can you tell me, very briefly, let's go

Page 9498

1 through the events which you gave evidence about when

2 you went with Arif Delija, when you went fishing with

3 him.

4 Yesterday, in examination-in-chief, you said

5 that when you went there in early July '92, that you

6 were stopped at the checkpoint in Meraja, at the

7 bridge?

8 A. Yes, as you come onto the bridge to get to

9 Tisovac.

10 Q. And you will agree with me that you were

11 advised that you had to go back, that you couldn't go

12 on?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yesterday you stated that you still managed

15 somehow to convince the soldiers to let you through,

16 and they in turn told you that you were seen?

17 A. Yes, they told us not to tell anybody that

18 they had seen us.

19 Q. Very well. We mentioned your previous

20 statements, and I want to point out a detail to you.

21 Earlier, on both occasions when you -- both on the

22 occasion when you spoke to the ICTY investigators and

23 to the Bosnian authorities, you said that you went

24 around this checkpoint in order not to be seen by the

25 soldiers because they would have barred you from

Page 9499

1 passing through?

2 A. Yes, they pointed out and they advised us to

3 go around this ground and to then go fishing and not to

4 make reference to them.

5 Q. Yes. But you never said that before. And I

6 am going to tell you why I am raising this as an

7 important point, because on that occasion you said that

8 you and Arif, on your own initiative, decided to go

9 forth, and I quote you, "regardless of everything," and

10 again I quote you, "at our own risk." So that would

11 mean that not only did nobody let you pass, but you

12 took it upon yourself to go at your own risk?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I just wanted to point out to you that this

15 is not what you said yesterday and today, because what

16 you said on this occasion is the exact opposite of what

17 you had said before. Do you understand me?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Well, is that true?

20 A. The truth is that we were warned and that we

21 proceeded on -- on our own responsibility to go

22 fishing.

23 Q. So you say that they let you go, that they

24 let you pass?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9500

1 Q. Which is what you said yesterday for the

2 first time.

3 Now, tell me, why would you run the risk?

4 A. We did not see that we should have been

5 prevented from fishing, because we went along the

6 Ivancica River all the time and we kept -- we fished

7 all the time. So we did not think it very dangerous to

8 keep moving on in order to fish.

9 Q. Even in spite of the fact that you saw an

10 improperly buried or hastily buried body of a soldier

11 nearby?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in that respect, just one question. You

14 say that this body was buried up, so to speak, in the

15 open, not somewhere where it's a hidden place, but

16 right next to the bridge, so that certain parts of the

17 bodies could even be seen?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You described the first incident. I am not

20 going to repeat it, but let me ask you: You were

21 basically accused of being infiltrated because you were

22 in that area without permission?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. However, when the situation was clarified,

25 Grubesic escorted you back and, in essence, apologised?

Page 9501

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In late July you went towards the black top

3 or the Mount Busovaca for the second time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This is some 10, 15 kilometres away from

6 Busovaca; is that correct?

7 A. Some two hours' walk.

8 Q. And about, what, 10 or more kilometres away

9 from Tisovac also, or the other way? I mean from the

10 black summit.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Just give us an approximate figure.

13 A. There were 15 to 20.

14 Q. You mean kilometres?

15 A. Approximately.

16 Q. With respect to the second incident, you gave

17 two statements, which we referred to just now. And

18 just in general, I don't want to go into detail, but in

19 the first statement you described in detail that you

20 saw the manner in which this one soldier whom you

21 believed to have been a member of the Serbian Army was

22 killed, and today you said that you absolutely did not

23 see the killing itself. Which of that is true? That

24 is the question.

25 A. The truth is that we were prevented and that

Page 9502

1 we could not see the murder.

2 Q. Yes. But Mr. T, let me point out to you that

3 you described the murder for the -- in a very detailed

4 way in your first statement and you signed it. I can

5 show you your signature.

6 A. I believe that this is not true.

7 Q. Let me just add something to what I said you

8 signed in your statement. Before you signed it, it is

9 mentioned, and I quote, "I have nothing further to add

10 to this. I have heard this statement being read back

11 to me. I am prepared to repeat it before a Tribunal or

12 any other international institution which may express

13 an interest in it. Should I remember any additional

14 details, I am prepared to amend the statement. I

15 consider it my own and I confirm it by signing it."

16 Do you understand me? You saw this written

17 down when you were signing it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you say that in spite of all of this, that

20 this statement is not true?

21 A. The end of this story, that is until the

22 murder itself, is not true.

23 Q. Thank you. Just to add -- in October of 1992

24 you again went for the third time with Arif over there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9503

1 Q. So in spite of all the dangers which you were

2 exposed to, the first and the second time, you still

3 went for a third time in that area. Mr. T, it would

4 seem that Arif Delija and you, as members of the TO,

5 were sent there to reconnoitre the area?

6 A. Yes, perhaps that is true.

7 Q. Just another detail in relation to this

8 statement. Yesterday you mentioned a soldier named

9 Boban. This man is never mentioned in any of your

10 statements, but a different person is mentioned.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Ante Budimir is mentioned?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that this person?

15 A. Well, his nickname was Bobi or Boban,

16 something like that.

17 Q. But you told the Prosecutor yesterday that

18 that was his real name. He asked you expressly?

19 A. Yes. I meant -- I thought that it was,

20 because we have called him by that name throughout the

21 time that I have known him since childhood.

22 Q. That is not so important. You may have

23 recalled yesterday I got up to object to the HDZ

24 mention. Can we agree that you do not know very

25 specific details about the HDZ organisation; that is,

Page 9504

1 when it was established, who were the Presidents and so

2 on? Is that correct?

3 A. Superficially I do know, but globally

4 speaking, I don't know all the names.

5 Q. My question, Witness T, is that you do not

6 know precisely in detail everything that I said?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In other words, you know what the general

9 knowledge was in Busovaca at the time; that's what you

10 know?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But I need to ask you one thing regarding

13 Mr. Kordic. Actually, a series of questions regarding

14 Mr. Kordic. We've resolved the issue on the HDZ, so

15 I'll skip that. But yesterday you said that Mr. Kordic

16 was the vice-president of the war presidency?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who was the President of this war presidency?

19 A. I believe that it was Asim Sunulahpasic.

20 Q. Asim Sunulahpasic was President of the

21 executive board in Busovaca?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And he's a Muslim?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know when this war presidency was

Page 9505

1 established?

2 A. I believe in late 1991.

3 Q. Perhaps I should have asked you better. What

4 war presidency are you referring to?

5 A. The joint one.

6 Q. So in fact you are not referring to the war

7 presidency but to the joint crisis staff?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You don't know anything about the criteria

10 according to which this joint crisis staff was

11 established?

12 A. I know that there was parity in terms of the

13 victory achieved.

14 Q. In the elections?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Sunulahpasic entered this crisis staff as

17 President of the executive council, that is to say the

18 then government of Busovaca?

19 A. I think so, yes.

20 Q. Do you know who at that time was President of

21 the Municipal Assembly of Busovaca? Did you understand

22 my question?

23 A. Yes. Well, it was from the Croatian people.

24 Q. But you don't know who it was?

25 A. I can't remember the name.

Page 9506

1 Q. Let me put a simpler question to you.

2 Perhaps can you tell the Honourable Court on what you

3 base your assertion that Mr. Kordic was

4 vice-president. You are referring to this crisis

5 staff, if we've -- clear that up today.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us some facts upon which you

8 base your assertion? Actually, you are not sure, if

9 that is how I can interpret your silence, that

10 Mr. Kordic was vice-president to Mr. Sunulahpasic in

11 this crisis staff, right?

12 A. I think that Kordic was commander of the

13 Territorial Defence and then transferred to the post of

14 vice-president of the war presidency.

15 Q. I understand that that's what you think, but

16 I asked you for the facts. By the way, who was

17 Commander of the Territorial Defence? Husein

18 Hadzimejlic, right?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. So it wasn't Mr. Kordic, right?

21 A. But at one period of time he was present in

22 this staff, Dario Kordic was.

23 Q. Mr. Kordic was never in the Territorial

24 Defence, Witness T. He was secretary in the

25 municipality.

Page 9507

1 A. The secretary for what?

2 Q. Yes, for national defence.

3 A. I know, but this is an executive agency, not

4 a military agency.

5 Q. Mr. T, let me be quite frank about this. It

6 is not my opinion; it is a fact.

7 A. Yes?

8 Q. The crisis staff was established -- that is

9 to say the joint staff -- was established as follows.

10 It was the president of the municipality and the

11 president of the executive council, or the executive

12 board, and a few other persons. The president of the

13 municipal assembly was ex officio president of this

14 joint crisis staff, if that's what we're going to call

15 it, and the president of the executive board or

16 executive counsel was the vice-president of this crisis

17 staff. The name that you could not remember is the

18 president of the municipal assembly of Busovaca,

19 Mr. Zoran Maric. He was the president of the crisis

20 staff, and his deputy was Mr. Asim Sunulahpasic, not

21 Mr. Kordic. Obviously you had made a mistake. Do you

22 agree with what I'm saying?

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, I don't think you can

24 really get much further with this. There will be

25 evidence which you can produce if you want on this

Page 9508

1 particular topic. I think you have dealt very

2 thoroughly with it as far as the witness is concerned.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

4 Your Honour. I'm just following your instructions from

5 earlier on, that in such situations, we should present

6 our own position quite clearly and then see what the

7 witness will say to that. But perhaps we may proceed

8 at this point.

9 Q. Perhaps another question related to the war

10 presidency that was set up in Kacuni in January 1993,

11 January. Do you know anything about this?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know that the president of the war

14 presidency -- I'm talking about the war presidency that

15 was established by the Muslims in Kacuni -- was Asir

16 Mekic?

17 A. Yes, but this was after I got out of Busovaca.

18 Q. No, this was in January 1993, but never

19 mind. If you don't know anything about this, I'm not

20 going to put any further questions to you about it.

21 Yesterday you said that Mr. Dario Kordic wore

22 a uniform every now and then?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Today, on the photograph, you showed an

25 armband on Mr. Kordic's left arm, as all other persons

Page 9509

1 had, and it said "HVO"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell me, where did Mr. Kordic wear insignia

4 of his rank?

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Perhaps we could use the same

6 photograph. With the permission of the Court, perhaps

7 we could have the photograph placed on the ELMO once

8 again. I think it is Z248,2B, if I'm not mistaken.

9 Q. Where is his rank?

10 A. The rank was here [indicates].

11 Q. Do we agree that it's not on this picture?

12 A. Yes. But here --

13 Q. And when did you first see Mr. Kordic wearing

14 a sign of his rank on his uniform?

15 A. In '92, in the month of July or August.

16 Q. When the HVO brigade was formed, the one you

17 mentioned, in August 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Just one more question related to this

20 photograph, so let's sort that out. The caption --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The caption is not an integral part of the

23 photograph, right? It is from a newspaper?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This was written without any quotation marks?

Page 9510

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But we have to explain this to the Judges,

3 because both you and I understand what this means, but

4 we have to explain it to the Judges. So it says "Za Ka

5 pe Dom spremni," "Prepared for the house of

6 correction," "Kostroman, Kordic, Blaskic."

7 Do we agree, Witness T, that "KP Dom" is an

8 abbreviation for "house of correction"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So that means "prison," right?

11 A. Yes, but it is also -- there is also another

12 abbreviation there, and that is of "Za Dom spremni,"

13 "ready for the homeland."

14 Q. Mr. T, let's not quarrel on this, because

15 these are two completely different things, "Ka pe Dom

16 spremni" and "Za Dom spremni." Let us just explain

17 this to the Judges. Let us just explain the source.

18 Thank you. When you spoke of this act -- or rather

19 when you spoke about rank, yesterday you said that you

20 did not find the rank clear. What did you mean by

21 that?

22 A. I did not know it.

23 Q. But in your previous statement, you said that

24 it was an officer's rank?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9511

1 Q. That is to say a senior officer's rank,

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But that is only your inference; you don't

5 really know this for sure?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know, to the best of your knowledge,

8 whether a single soldier in July 1992, or a single

9 uniformed person in the HVO, had any rank, any sign of

10 rank, on their uniforms?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You never saw anyone else? Thank you.

13 To put this as briefly as possible, the part

14 where you mentioned the Tisa Hotel, you spoke about a

15 series of units that had their command, to the best of

16 your knowledge, over there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But I think we will agree that the MUP never

19 had its headquarters in the Tisa Hotel?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The military police, the intervention

22 platoon, et cetera, they had their headquarters where

23 you mentioned, behind Nama, or rather behind the bus

24 station? How shall I put it?

25 A. Yes, but the intervention platoon was in

Page 9512

1 Tisa.

2 Q. Another piece of information related to

3 Skorpions.

4 A. Yes?

5 Q. We're talking about Mr. Dario Kordic all the

6 time, so I'll tell you quite frankly that I never heard

7 of that name. Who told you that they were called

8 Skorpions? What do you base this conclusion upon?

9 A. I base it on statements made by my friends,

10 that part of the intervention platoon was involved in

11 guarding Dario Kordic personally, and they were called

12 Skorpions.

13 Q. So that is something you heard about in

14 Busovaca; rumour had it in Busovaca that that's the way

15 it was?

16 A. Well, yes, perhaps you could put it that way

17 too, yes.

18 Q. But we agree that the men we are talking

19 about did not have any special insignia?

20 A. No. No, they did not have any special

21 insignia, except for their uniforms, their weapons --

22 Q. All right. Like any other soldier, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Let us continue with the

25 questions related to Mr. Kordic, so that we could be as

Page 9513

1 accurate as possible.

2 Yesterday, in response to the Prosecutor's

3 question, and it was a direct question, you were

4 supposed to say, on the basis of your own experience,

5 what your opinion was as to when Mr. Dario Kordic

6 became president of the HDZ and whether he had any

7 authority, and you answered that he had political

8 authority in several municipalities?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. First of all, how do you know that, and what

11 is that conclusion based upon?

12 A. It is based upon what was seen on television,

13 on TV Busovaca. They broadcast live the sessions where

14 these gentlemen were present and where they passed

15 crucial decisions.

16 Q. Mr. T, these were political discussions,

17 political meetings; right?

18 A. Military too.

19 Q. Give me one example when a military session

20 was televised and when Mr. Kordic was present, please.

21 A. '93, the month of February.

22 Q. So after the conflict broke out?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was this meeting about?

25 A. Well, it directly had to do with the exchange

Page 9514

1 of territories and the moving out of Muslims from

2 Zenica, Visoko, from Zenica to Vitez, then also marking

3 borders, territories, things like that.

4 Q. Mr. T, that is from one of the articles that

5 you gave us from these newspapers that you gave us.

6 This is mentioned in one of the articles?

7 A. Well, possibly. I didn't read that.

8 Q. But may I, on the basis of what you said,

9 conclude that you watched a press conference on

10 television, not a military meeting?

11 A. Well, the gentlemen were present there, the

12 gentlemen from the military and political leadership.

13 Q. But this was a press conference, for

14 journalists from home and abroad?

15 A. Well, maybe. I think that's the way it was.

16 Q. All right. If we've agreed on that, then we

17 can go on.

18 Sorry, I forgot another question from that

19 area. When you said "political authority," I don't

20 want the Honourable Trial Chamber to misunderstand what

21 we are saying, especially because all of this is being

22 interpreted into the English language. What did you

23 mean by that?

24 A. In this situation of war in Busovaca, the

25 political structures of government were absorbed,

Page 9515

1 mobilised for defence.

2 Q. Yes, you said that yesterday, that's correct,

3 but in response to another question. However, your

4 opinion was that Mr. Kordic had political power in all

5 those municipalities that you mentioned. What do you

6 mean by that? Because the Court should understand what

7 you mean.

8 A. Well, persons who were dedicated to Dario

9 Kordic were put in key positions. For example, an

10 acquaintance of mine, Pasko Ljubicic, in the

11 municipality of Vitez, and others.

12 Q. Mr. T, when you're talking about these

13 influences --

14 A. Yes?

15 Q. -- actually, do you know who the president of

16 the HVO was, after the HVO was established, of the

17 civilian government of the HVO?

18 A. I think it was Zoran Maric, the president of

19 the municipality.

20 Q. From the very outset, when the HVO was

21 established, the HVO government; is that what you're

22 saying?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But that's not correct, Mr. T. Florijan

25 Glavocevic was the first president. You know

Page 9516

1 Mr. Glavocevic?

2 A. He was elected president of the Territorial

3 Defence, too, on behalf of both populations. However,

4 this was never established. The reasons were clear.

5 Q. Mr. T, we are talking about political

6 influence, and in that context I'm asking you the

7 following: Do you agree with me when I say that

8 Florijan Glavocevic was the president of the civilian

9 government of HVO in Busovaca before Mr. Maric?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Do we agree that the civilian government of

12 the HVO had so-called administrative executive

13 functions?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That is to say, in other words, it did the

16 things that a municipality otherwise does?

17 A. Yes, but the military had priority.

18 Q. But you didn't answer my question as to how

19 it was that Mr. Kordic had power in Fojnica, Stari

20 Travnik, and for that matter, you mentioned all the

21 surrounding municipalities.

22 And if you just will wait for the

23 interpretation to be finished.

24 A. I say that Pasko Ljubicic was a good

25 acquaintance and a friend of Dubravka Kordic.

Page 9517

1 Q. Witness T, you mentioned Pasko Ljubicic. I

2 asked you about Travnik and Fojnica, that is the two

3 towns in opposite ends of the region. And how did

4 Mr. Kordic have authority power there?

5 A. He was seen during masses, in churches where

6 he held speeches and so on.

7 Q. Very well. Do you know about other

8 municipalities: Kresevo, Kiseljak? Do you have any

9 specific facts which you can mention or do you just

10 conclude this in general from his political activities?

11 A. I know from Pasko Ljubicic.

12 Q. Could you tell us any fact about the

13 political influence of Mr. Kordic regarding the

14 situation, let's say, in the municipality of Novi

15 Travnik? And what is the basis of your conclusion?

16 A. The forces which were sent to take Novi

17 Travnik were sent from Busovaca.

18 Q. Now that you mention Busovaca, who was the

19 HVO military commander in Busovaca at the time? Do you

20 know? If you don't know, just say so.

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. I just mentioned the HDZ military structures

23 in Busovaca xxx, and you said that Dusko Grubesic was a

24 commander?

25 A. Yes, but this was in '92.

Page 9518

1 Q. Who was there before him, so that the Trial

2 Chamber has a full picture of it? Who was the

3 commander of the Busovaca brigade, that is, the Nikola

4 Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, before Mr. Grubesic?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Witness T, if you will agree with me, you

7 make inferences on Mr. Kordic's political power based

8 on his political activity, but that's just your

9 inference?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yesterday, I don't think that this was very

12 relevant, but you brought it up, so I need to ask you.

13 You said that Mr. Dario Kordic was related and on

14 friendly terms with the Anto Sliskovic family because

15 Franjo Sliskovic, Anto's brother, had married the

16 sister of Mr. Kordic's wife; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you talked about these relations between

19 Mr. Sliskovic and Kordic and when you mentioned all of

20 this, you placed all this in the context of 1992,

21 because that was the year that was being discussed at

22 the time; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Witness T, you obviously confused this with

25 some other -- because of some other things, and I will

Page 9519

1 say why, and I apologise to the Trial Chamber for --

2 JUDGE MAY: I don't follow this.

3 Mr. Naumovski, what are you going to put to the

4 witness?

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I was just

6 coming to the question.

7 Q. Mr. Franjo Sliskovic married the sister of

8 Kordic's wife in December of 1994. That was much

9 later.

10 A. Well, that was only on paper.

11 Q. We can prove it if necessary, but perhaps we

12 should not dwell on this. But let me point to you to

13 another matter. Yesterday you said expressly that

14 Mr. Kordic was superior to Mr. Sliskovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you provided no fact to support it.

17 Could you state any facts in that respect for the Trial

18 Chamber?

19 A. The units which went to liberate Novi Travnik

20 went from Busovaca through Nadioci, Ahmici, Vitez and

21 beyond. These units were led by Dario Kordic. I say

22 this on the basis of fact that he was stopped at the

23 checkpoint at the limits of the Busovaca municipality

24 by the reserve forces of MUP of Busovaca municipality

25 -- that is, Vitez municipality.

Page 9520

1 Q. Excuse me. Could you give us the precise

2 location where this happened?

3 A. This was between Nadioci and the restaurant

4 called Sunce, where the road winds.

5 Q. So was that before the cemetery?

6 A. That was on the stretch before Nadioci and

7 the Vitez municipality limits and Busovaca municipality

8 limits.

9 Q. How do you know this? Who told you about

10 this?

11 A. My nephew, who was there at the checkpoint,

12 he told me this. And later on, after the Ahmici were

13 occupied, he was killed and massacred --

14 JUDGE MAY: Let's finish. That's your

15 nephew, is it, who was killed?

16 A. It's a cousin.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness T, I have to tell you that the Trial

19 Chamber had an opportunity to hear other witnesses who

20 claimed that Mr. Dario Kordic was at some meeting --

21 JUDGE MAY: That's a pure comment. You can

22 make the comment to us. It's not for the witness.

23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. I just

24 wanted to confront the witness with that. I

25 apologise.

Page 9521

1 Q. But I can put it to the witness that

2 Mr. Kordic was never stopped at that checkpoint.

3 A. Yes, you can put it to me, but can you prove

4 it?

5 Q. I am not here to answer your questions, but I

6 will put it to you that there was no witness who

7 testified here who testified to that.

8 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment.

9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I agree with

10 you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Let us move on, Witness T. Yesterday you

12 very specifically said that Mr. Kordic was a cousin of

13 Mr. Boban?

14 A. Yes, that is what I think.

15 Q. I did not find that in the transcript, but I

16 think that you even elucidated that it was on the

17 maternal side?

18 A. I thought that it was actually the paternal

19 side, through his father, Pero Kordic.

20 Q. Very well. Let's not go deeper into that.

21 But this is your opinion. Now, can you give us any

22 fact to support it?

23 A. From conversations among the Croats in

24 Busovaca, I reached that conclusion.

25 Q. If I understand it correctly, those are some

Page 9522

1 kind of rumours or stories?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

4 this may be irrelevant, but Mr. Kordic is not -- has no

5 relation that was stated. I think that maybe something

6 else was intended by such implication.

7 Q. Just one detail regarding the Busovaca

8 mosque. Are we in agreement that Mr. Kordic responded

9 to a question by a journalist that, "Why shouldn't

10 there be a mosque in Busovaca when there are mosques in

11 other cities?" And he made a specific reference to

12 Rome.

13 A. Yes. He said that there was one in Rome.

14 Q. Mr. T, on what day in the week was it when

15 the conflict in Busovaca broke out?

16 A. It was -- I think it was Saturday or Sunday.

17 Q. If it was Saturday or Sunday, then your dates

18 are wrong, because the Sunday was the 24th of January,

19 1993.

20 A. So that would have been on the 25th.

21 Q. So then we would agree that it was a Monday,

22 not on Sunday?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We have already spoken about what had gone on

25 a couple of days before, which was an attempt at

Page 9523

1 abduction of Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Blaskic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Today you mentioned that they were taken to

4 the silo for a short period of time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what a

7 silo was, what it meant at the time?

8 A. That was a place which was used by the

9 Yugoslav People's Army, which was then turned over or

10 was taken and given to use to the Territorial Defence.

11 Q. My very specific question was: Was that a

12 camp for Croats?

13 A. At that time, no.

14 Q. And when did it become a camp for Croats?

15 A. I believe sometime in July or August, maybe

16 even September 1993, but this -- but not that military

17 complex. It was another one.

18 Q. But where the silo was, in that area?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do we agree that the day before the 25th,

21 that is, on the 24th, at 3 p.m., two Croats were killed

22 at the Kacuni checkpoint: Ivica Petrovic from Busovaca

23 and another person who was from somewhere else?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you go to Kacuni on a regular basis

Page 9524

1 before the conflict, that is throughout 1992?

2 A. To Kacuni. I would say through Kacuni, yes,

3 but to Kacuni only on occasion.

4 Q. I had in mind a wider area of Kacuni with

5 regard to your duties in defence activities throughout

6 1992.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When the Territorial Defence was deployed in

9 Kacuni, it was meant by personnel mostly from Busovaca

10 and the surrounding areas; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But on the days when that abduction -- when

13 Ivica Petrovic and Igor Bogdanovic were killed, a

14 number of soldiers from Zenica arrived there, that is,

15 from the Zenica TO; is that correct?

16 A. At that time I did not go to the Kacuni

17 area. I heard that some Croats were killed, that is,

18 later, and that there was a conflict. And I had an

19 opportunity to see this. And that there were some

20 units there.

21 Q. My apologies. It is not in the -- it is not

22 -- it was not entered into the transcript that those

23 two men were Croats who were killed.

24 A. Yes. And I heard that they were killed and

25 that they were Croats.

Page 9525

1 Q. Very well. I think that that is corrected.

2 We can move on. The day when the conflict started on

3 the 25th of January 1993, Witness T, you were still a

4 member of the TO and you had certain duties?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. (redacted)

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. Yes, but that was later, I believe before the

17 conflict.

18 Q. We are talking about the time period up to

19 25th of January?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: Just before you go on. Now, how

22 is this going to assist the Trial Chamber in deciding

23 this case? Again, it seems to me an effort to

24 establish that there was misconduct or there were

25 murders of some Croats. Even if that is so, how does

Page 9526

1 that justify what happened thereafter? Now, we need

2 really to speed up. This witness has been giving

3 evidence for a long time. We ought to try and finish

4 him today.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

6 the situation is very simple. We assert that

7 everything that preceded the conflict, and the

8 Honourable Trial Chamber has already heard about this

9 -- actually, we are going to prove this during our own

10 case, that the Muslims attacked the Croats on the 25th

11 of January.

12 JUDGE MAY: You will prove what is relevant,

13 and not a series of allegations against the other

14 side. You can prove what's relevant, but really the

15 tit-for-tat approach is taking up a great deal of

16 time. And I am speaking for myself. I am very

17 concerned about it. Because I am not sure that it's

18 relevant to these matters.

19 In any event, can we move on?

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] May it please

21 the Court. This is not a question of tit-for-tat. We

22 are just trying to explain how the war in Busovaca

23 broke out in January 1993 and who attacked who.

24 A. Yes, but you didn't mention --

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Wait a

Page 9527

1 minute, Witness T.

2 A. Yes, but you didn't mention '92.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, the

4 Court knows about that.

5 JUDGE MAY: Now, Witness T, please don't

6 intervene.

7 Mr. Naumovski, will you now move along with

8 this cross-examination and try and complete it so that

9 if there is any other questions by Defence counsel, it

10 can be altogether finished by the time the adjournment

11 comes. You have been cross-examining for something

12 like an hour and a half.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 I do bear time in mind and I believe that we are going

15 to finish everything during the rest of the day today.

16 Q. As for this unit that was established in this

17 area, Mr. T, just one more question.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On the 25th of January, 1993 --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- this platoon that we are talking about --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- that is to say, this military unit, had

24 positioned itself on the hill of Crvencina?

25 A. This platoon was deployed in the zone of

Page 9528

1 responsibility in the defence of Maglaj.

2 Q. Mr. T, I am talking about you, who were in

3 Busovaca at the time.

4 A. I am also talking about the very same

5 platoon, and I am saying that part of the platoon, not

6 the entire platoon -- that is to say, 60 per cent --

7 with all their weapons, and all the other platoons from

8 the detachment of Busovaca, were engaged in the defence

9 of Maglaj.

10 Q. Mr. T, part of the platoon was in Busovaca,

11 wasn't it?

12 A. Yes, but without any weapons --

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, it is no part of

14 counsel's task to argue with the witnesses. Put your

15 case, get the answer, and then please move on.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] One more

17 question, Your Honour. Thank you. And I do apologise

18 if I started arguing with the witness for a moment or

19 so.

20 Q. After the shooting and after the fighting

21 that ensued, did you withdraw to Nezir Mujicic's house?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that's where you were arrested?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 9529

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. (redacted)

4 Q. (redacted)

5 A. (redacted)

6 Q. (redacted)

7 A. (redacted)

8 Q. (redacted)

9 mentioned Nermin Elezovic and Jasmin Sehovic's murders?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I believe we will agree that it was others

12 that told you about this; you were not there, right?

13 A. (redacted).

14 We were taken out together.

15 Q. Yes, I understand that. But you did not see

16 the actual killing; that's what I am trying to say.

17 A. No, I did not.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Your Honours, I want to

19 shorten the proceedings, so I'm not going to put any

20 other questions in this respect, but I wish to draw

21 your attention to D38/1, which speaks of this incident,

22 so I don't really have to question the witness about

23 this unnecessarily.

24 Q. Mr. T, I have to go back to this document,

25 the one that you gave from the newspapers, that is to

Page 9530

1 say, Z248/2. You were in the army, right?

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] So could this

3 please be shown to the witness.

4 Q. So that is the document that we discussed

5 today, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you were in the army, and you know that

8 such secret documents, so to speak, have in their upper

9 right-hand corner a sign saying "Confidential,"

10 "Strictly Confidential," or "Military Secret," or

11 something like that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you say yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This document doesn't have that, does it?

16 A. Yes. I can't see it.

17 Q. And the sentence that you could not read, at

18 the very bottom, the last sentence in this paper is:

19 "Members of the HVO who resist should be disarmed, and

20 in more serious incidents, killed." Is that what you

21 could not have read?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the last thing , something that we have

24 here in the Croatian text, that is to say the order for

25 an attack on Travnik. At the very bottom, that is a

Page 9531

1 headline from a newspaper; is that right?

2 A. Possibly.

3 Q. Today a document was shown to you, 861, or

4 rather the other one, that pertains to your neighbour.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So it's 861,1. Do you agree with me that in

7 these documents, no specific time is mentioned? It

8 doesn't say at any point how long this is valid, for

9 how long a period is this valid?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you had this same kind of document,

12 didn't you?

13 A. Yes, yes, but a different nationality.

14 Q. But, please, why did you state in your

15 earlier statements that you did have a limit, a time

16 limit, on your document, the 1st of April?

17 A. I don't know. Perhaps I referred to the

18 curfew.

19 Q. So perhaps it's a mistake; do we agree on

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

23 I'm trying to finish as soon as possible, so I'm trying

24 to see what are the new things that he mentioned

25 today.

Page 9532

1 Q. Mr. T, do you agree that in the period -- or

2 rather in the summer of 1993, to be precise, before you

3 left Busovaca, there was a big wave, so to speak, of

4 refugees from Travnik in this entire region; they came

5 to Busovaca?

6 A. Yes. I had the opportunity of seeing that at

7 the bus station.

8 Q. Today, Mr. T, you presented an opinion of

9 yours that Mr. Dario Kordic had to know about

10 everything that was going on in Busovaca. That is your

11 conclusion, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Witness T, did you ever see Mr. Kordic say in

14 public or write in public or sign in public a military

15 order for an attack against the Muslims? I'm referring

16 to the period from May 1992 until the end of the war.

17 A. No. Personally, I did not.

18 Q. So your conclusion is based on what we would

19 call general knowledge, or rumour? I don't know if you

20 understand what I'm saying. Do we agree on that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I think, Witness T, that we're almost over

23 with my questions. Let me just have a look and see

24 whether I've missed something.

25 I'm going to change this question.

Page 9533

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Perhaps, for the very end --

2 well, perhaps it's best for me to finish at this point,

3 Your Honours. I'm afraid that if I put another

4 question, I'm going to enter a new subject altogether,

5 so then I'm going to be short for time. I thank you

6 once again, and I thank you, Witness, for your

7 questions.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, you've got a few

9 minutes left. If you want to go into something else,

10 of course, you can.

11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

12 Your Honour. I don't think that you prevented me from

13 carrying out my work. I just think that I should

14 finish at this point because I'm afraid I should not

15 raise any other issues. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] You know the

18 answer, Your Honour: No, we don't have any questions.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE MAY: We can't always be sure.

21 MR. NICE: Two questions only.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

23 Q. Witness T, in relation to the group that you

24 have called the Skorpions, were any of those Skorpions

25 known to you by name?

Page 9534

1 A. They were part of the intervention platoon.

2 The intervention platoon consisted of troublesome

3 Croats, who were wanted men by the police and things

4 like that. That is to say that before the conflict,

5 they had done things they were not supposed to do.

6 As for the names, I personally met Milenko

7 Akrap; I knew him from before. Ivica Kristo. Ivica

8 from Gusti Grab; I cannot remember the name right now.

9 Q. I'm going to interrupt you there. Where did

10 you get the name "Skorpion" from? Did you get it from

11 talking to people you knew, or from somewhere else?

12 A. They said, either by way of a joke or not, on

13 the 17th of April 1993, in front of the department

14 store in Busovaca -- actually, in that part of the

15 street, I mean, I was there for medical reasons; I was

16 walking along that street. I reached that street where

17 the intervention platoon, the military police, had some

18 kind of a celebration. It so happened that I was

19 stopped, and I was forced to drink beer with them to

20 celebrate some kind of victory.

21 Among others, Drazen Kresic, Dzare Pulic were

22 there, and other acquaintances who knew me. They were

23 friendly towards me, and as we talked and joked, they

24 said that they belonged to the Skorpions.

25 Q. Thank you. Second question: How short or

Page 9535

1 long a time after the alleged stopping of Kordic at the

2 checkpoint did your relation, your nephew or your

3 cousin, report that to you? So how long after the

4 stopping was it that he told you about it?

5 A. Some 30 days went by; that is, from when he

6 was stopped at the checkpoint.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. I guess it was at night. I believe this

9 checkpoint then pulled back to the cemetery below

10 Ahmici, and during that night --

11 Q. That's all I want to know.

12 There is a third question, and it's this.

13 Your visits to the area of Tisovac, just answer this

14 question if you want to: Were they part of an act of

15 reconnoitring, or were they just pastime, or do you

16 prefer not to say?

17 A. I say with responsibility that I did not go

18 there as part of any military tasks; that I went to the

19 area of Tisovac -- even before the war, I engaged in

20 fishing, I went to get mushrooms, and other activities

21 that had some economic value.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. NICE: Nothing else.

24 JUDGE MAY: Witness T, that concludes your

25 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

Page 9536

1 Tribunal to give it. You are now released.

2 While these matters are being looked into,

3 Mr. Nice, you've got one witness tomorrow?

4 MR. NICE: At the moment I have an

5 embarrassment in relation to witnesses which I am

6 finding out about, and I'll tell you about it when this

7 witness withdraws.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 MR. NICE: Before we pass from this witness,

10 in my efforts to be economic with time and with paper,

11 I think I've probably been nothing but confusion and

12 difficulty to your staff. And it occurs to me that in

13 relation to the newspaper, it might be prudent to have

14 the four extracts from the newspaper, which are four

15 sheets, collectively produced as a separate exhibit,

16 because it may be that the accuracy of one of the other

17 orders in comparison with the orders already proved

18 will come to be of significance; it may be not. They

19 are four sheets, and they could be produced as a single

20 exhibit, 2783, and the Chamber will then know that the

21 whole newspaper was copied for the Defence. But I

22 think I've rather caused problems with the numbering;

23 I'm sorry about that.

24 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could discuss that

25 with the registry to find the most convenient answer to

Page 9537

1 it.

2 MR. NICE: The position as to the witnesses

3 is, to say the least, worrying. I think the last week

4 and this week, the problems we've faced with three

5 major witnesses booked to attend on either last week,

6 this week, and next week, whatever it is, include such

7 things as a witness being quite willing to attend and

8 then at the last minute finding that his son was going

9 to visit him in a far-off land, unknown to him, and his

10 then saying, "I'm not coming"; a witness, having been

11 booked a long time in advance, coming from the other

12 side of the world, when we tried to reorganise the

13 schedule to make things fit, he is entirely

14 unavailable, and so we can't yet be sure whether he is

15 coming as planned or not, and he's a high-ranking

16 officer, who is only going to give us a very limited

17 amount of time; and then the witness that I -- I didn't

18 identify; was identified very helpfully for me last

19 week as somebody who could fill what was by now

20 becoming a short week, a witness who is in the building

21 and I had thought was going to be available to give

22 evidence tomorrow, I've just received a message, which

23 is why Mr. Scott's left the room, that unknown to us,

24 though he very helpfully came for the last two days, he

25 may not now be available tomorrow, so I am

Page 9538

1 investigating that at once.

2 These witnesses are all, I think, military or

3 similar witnesses. And looking ahead to next week in

4 general, there is a problem that we're going to have

5 too little evidence, or it may be, if the witness who

6 comes from the other side of the world arrives, because

7 he has been booked and is going to come and that's

8 that, and he's only going to give us two days, we may

9 have too much evidence.

10 What I would ask in relation to these, as it

11 were, professional witnesses is that if necessary,

12 consideration be given to the possibility of their

13 summaries counting as, once adopted, evidence, save and

14 to the extent that the Defence identify passages that

15 need to be taken in detail and could be the subject of

16 cross-examination. Of course, it may be, rather than

17 having too much evidence, that I shall land up having

18 too little.

19 As to tomorrow, I'm going to need a few

20 minutes yet to find out what the position is. As you

21 will understand, I've sent a message out immediately

22 asking the colonel whether he can do anything to

23 rearrange tomorrow's appointment, of which we were

24 earlier unaware, and be available to help us with

25 evidence tomorrow. That's Mr. Schipper. I know the

Page 9539

1 Defence --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: What is the situation, now?

4 What is the situation, exactly? That you have no

5 witness for tomorrow morning, or maybe?

6 MR. NICE: Well, as of ten minutes ago, I was

7 told no. Mr. Scott's gone out to attempt negotiations,

8 but I understand that it is a firm no. He is a

9 military officer from northern Europe, and he

10 apparently is intent on returning.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So you have

12 no more witnesses from now to the end of this week at

13 least?

14 MR. NICE: That's absolutely right.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: And you are not sure about

16 the next week?

17 MR. NICE: Next week I think I have two or

18 three witnesses. If it's two witnesses, it will be a

19 bit too little; if it's three witnesses, given that

20 they are substantial witnesses, it could be a little

21 bit too much. I have erred on the side of having too

22 many witnesses, and I have attempted to make

23 arrangements to have the witness coming from the other

24 side of the world come, on the basis that I forecast

25 the Chamber would probably prefer to accommodate that

Page 9540

1 arrangement rather than the other one.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, so it's important that we

3 get on with the evidence.

4 MR. NICE: Yes.

5 JUDGE MAY: Despite these difficulties.

6 MR. NICE: The last week and the next week

7 have proved to be quite extraordinarily difficult.

8 There have been earlier problems that have had a

9 knock-on effect of changes in the Trial Chamber's

10 timetable and so on.

11 JUDGE MAY: And there will be further?

12 MR. NICE: There will be further ones like

13 that.

14 JUDGE MAY: I can tell you now that because

15 of the requirements of another case, we shall not be

16 sitting in the afternoons of the 24th and 25th, so that

17 week will be shortened.

18 MR. NICE: Thank you for that.

19 Incidentally, I know that this witness would

20 be available this afternoon. I think we raise that

21 because if yesterday's position had continued, that

22 might have been a possibility, but I can recognise that

23 that will no longer be a possibility.

24 JUDGE MAY: It's not, because of the

25 requirements of the other case.

Page 9541

1 MR. NICE: Of course.

2 I think I've said before, the arrangement of

3 witnesses is extremely difficult, and we are working

4 flat out to find people at all times, and this is I

5 think the first time we have run into a serious block.

6 But unless my discussions with the colonel are going to

7 have any more results than Mr. Scott's, and I can see

8 no reason to believe that's likely to be the case, it

9 looks as though we are out of witnesses for tomorrow.

10 There's the argument about the one dead

11 witness; that in itself I don't think will take much

12 longer to argue, because it's been argued substantially

13 already, and there is a limited amount of outstanding

14 discussion; and in any event, that argument, although

15 it can be self-contained, has a connection with some

16 evidence yet to come.

17 For example -- let me just explain that. The

18 evidence that we seek to adduce relates to a sighting

19 of Kordic on the night before the attack in Donje

20 Veceriska. There is evidence of another witness

21 dealing in some detail with earlier sightings of

22 Mr. Kordic at the same place -- not on that particular

23 night, but going to show a pattern of visits. And of

24 course that would be either corroborative material or

25 similar-fact material, or material of some weight, to

Page 9542

1 support the evidence that will be coming from the

2 statement of the deceased, so that even arguing about

3 it might not lead to its ultimate resolution because

4 the Chamber might prefer to make a resolution of that

5 issue after hearing the evidence of the other visits to

6 Donje Veceriska.

7 JUDGE MAY: It would seem sensible to leave

8 that argument until that evidence has been heard.

9 Very well. How long do you want, as it were,

10 to find out?

11 MR. NICE: If you could give me about ten

12 minutes, I'll go and speak to the man directly.

13 JUDGE MAY: What we shall do is to adjourn,

14 and if you find that you can call the witness tomorrow,

15 will you kindly let us have word by quarter past 1?

16 MR. NICE: Certainly.

17 JUDGE MAY: Otherwise this matter is

18 adjourned until Monday morning.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: What do you aim for Monday

20 morning? What is the programme?

21 MR. NICE: Personally, I shall be here on

22 Monday morning, but the balance of next week I have to

23 attend on the other Chamber for another trial. But on

24 Monday morning it's going to be, I hope, a man called

25 Carter, and I think he is now definitely arriving, and

Page 9543

1 the alternative is it will be Brigadier -- or he may

2 now be General Duncan. But I think he is probably

3 going to come next.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: If you have the summary

5 ready before the end of this week?

6 MR. NICE: Any summaries that are prepared

7 will be made available.


9 MR. NICE: But the problem, again -- I'm

10 running into an objection, I think, or a comment.

11 MR. SAYERS: Just a few brief comments,

12 Mr. President. First, we have some matters of a legal

13 nature that we wanted to raise with the Trial Chamber,

14 and I had thought that they were going to be addressed

15 tomorrow. I would not anticipate that they would take

16 more than an hour in total.

17 With respect to the second matter regarding

18 the deceased witness, that's an issue which has been

19 lying fallow for a long time. And we've heard for the

20 first time today that apparently the theory is that

21 this is going to -- even though there are no

22 corroborative witnesses for this particular piece of

23 evidence, there is going to be evidence of a consistent

24 pattern of conduct, supposedly. Well, I would suggest

25 that that's subject to Rule 93 concerns, Rule 93(b)

Page 9544

1 concerns, and I do not believe any disclosures of an

2 allegation of such a consistent pattern of conduct have

3 been made to us.

4 JUDGE MAY: What are the matters you want to

5 raise? Just give me an idea in a few words.

6 MR. SAYERS: Off the top of my head, there

7 was an issue relating to the current protective order,

8 which perhaps needs to be expanded. There's an issue

9 related to the confidential witnesses that have been

10 brought before the Chamber so far who have -- for whom

11 protections have been sought, and only to recant the

12 necessity of those protections when they actually take

13 the stand. And I'm sure that the Trial Chamber can

14 appreciate the extremely difficult position in which

15 that puts the Defence.

16 There are also some other relatively discreet

17 issues. I thought we were going to address the issue

18 of dead witnesses generally, Your Honour, and that

19 raises the Aleksovski appeal decision concerns. I

20 don't believe that it's a particularly complicated

21 legal argument, maybe Mr. Nice disagrees, but it's

22 something that should be addressed sooner rather than

23 later. Things of that variety.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: Well, we will sit to hear the

Page 9545

1 matters that the Defence wish to raise, but it may well

2 be that we will not hear the argument about the dead

3 witnesses for the reasons which Mr. Nice has already

4 alluded to. Yes.

5 MR. NICE: Well, if we are going to sit

6 tomorrow in any event, I --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel,

8 please.

9 MR. NICE: If he is available, I take it the

10 Chamber would rather have evidence tomorrow. I'll

11 communicate with somebody in the appropriate department

12 and let you know one way or the other what the position

13 is.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Tomorrow morning.

15 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 1.08

16 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the

17 5th day of November, 1999, at 9.30 a.m.