Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10177

1 Tuesday, 23rd November, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

9 MR. NICE: Two short administrative matters.

10 First, as I think the Chamber knows, we would be

11 grateful for a short ex parte hearing. I understand

12 the practical difficulties about setting one up at the

13 beginning of the session.

14 Knowing a little about what's at stake, there

15 may be some urgency or there may be some need to deal

16 with it as swiftly as possible; possibly at the end of

17 the morning session. If we were to have some time,

18 might that be possible?

19 JUDGE MAY: Well, the alternative is 9.15

20 tomorrow morning.

21 MR. NICE: My concern is more what may follow

22 in relation to the work of other parts of the

23 institution, but if the Chamber is aware of the subject

24 matter in general terms, and is convinced that 9.15

25 tomorrow morning will be time enough to deal with it,

Page 10178

1 then 9.15 tomorrow morning.

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Nice, we have only the

3 vaguest idea, because we have had a very general

4 message. Is there any reason it has to be dealt with

5 today as opposed to 9.15 tomorrow morning?

6 MR. NICE: Providing other parts of the

7 institution are able to respond in time, 9.15 tomorrow

8 should be all right.

9 JUDGE MAY: I'm afraid that is so elliptical

10 I don't know what that refers to.

11 MR. NICE: That's a problem, isn't it? I

12 can't tell you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, I leave it to your

14 judgement. If you urge us to have the hearing today,

15 we will do it today, provided we get on with the

16 witness.

17 MR. NICE: I will review it at the break and

18 let you know informally whether it's necessary.

19 The second small administrative matter

20 relates to Brigadier Duncan, who is coming back this

21 week. He provided his diary, and the Chamber will

22 remember the concerns I expressed at the end of the

23 time when he gave his evidence. But he has provided

24 the extracts from his diary entirely voluntarily,

25 blanked out, and so that's not a problem, and I think

Page 10179

1 they've been served already. If not, they -- I think

2 they have been.

3 But before Mr. Sayers deals with that, in the

4 letter by which they've been provided, he also asks

5 that he may be provided with some milinfosums for

6 particular dates. Well, now, I haven't checked whether

7 they have already been exhibited so that they are in a

8 sense public documents, and there's probably no reason

9 why he shouldn't have them; they are documents of

10 record to which he would have made a contribution. But

11 as he is partway through giving his evidence, I checked

12 that nobody will object to his having access, and if

13 so, we will provide him copies of milinfosums for the

14 9th, 12th, 13th, and 19th of May, the 11th of June,

15 27th of September, and 6th of November.

16 MR. SAYERS: As Mr. Nice says, Mr. President,

17 we have received some small extracts from Brigadier

18 Duncan's diary. The one concern that I have with

19 respect to the blacking-out of entries is that there

20 are entries that concern events about which the

21 brigadier testified, and you have, for example, a

22 sentence about the event, a sentence about the event

23 one sentence later, and then an intervening sentence

24 just blacked out, and we don't have any way of

25 verifying that the item that was blacked out is of a

Page 10180

1 purely personal nature. Of course, if the Prosecution

2 represents that it is, then we will take the

3 Prosecution at its word; but it seems odd to have a

4 sentence, that appears to be part of a discrete

5 discussion of an event, blacked out without really any

6 explanation for that given to us.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, it was really as a

8 concession to you that that order was made. It's been

9 done voluntarily by the witness, and the fact is that

10 this is his private diary. Now, our ruling before has

11 been that these diaries have to be protected because of

12 the privacy of the individual, and he was given by the

13 Court the power to determine what should be disclosed

14 and what not. And in my view -- I haven't discussed

15 it, of course, but in my view, you've got what you're

16 entitled to.

17 MR. SAYERS: We're obviously in the Trial

18 Chamber's hands in that regard, and it turns out that

19 the parts of the -- actually there are two sets of

20 documents, extracts of which we were given, and they

21 are both extremely helpful, and we are very grateful

22 for the Court's indulgence in that regard, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

25 MR. SAYERS: With respect to the request to

Page 10181

1 consult the milinfosums, my reaction is that I don't

2 see why not.


4 MR. SAYERS: They form part of the pertinent

5 materials in this case, and I think the brigadier is

6 perfectly entitled to take a look at them if he wishes.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I mean, if he had asked in

8 the middle of the trial, while giving his evidence, if

9 he could look at a milinfosum to refresh his memory,

10 then presumably it would have been allowed, so I can

11 see no objection to that.

12 MR. SAYERS: We are completely in agreement,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.

15 MR. NICE: I'll act accordingly, and I'll

16 raise the general concerns of the Ministry of Defence

17 about diaries later, when the witness comes back, so as

18 not to interrupt the flow of today's evidence.

19 I gather there is an objection being taken in

20 relation to today's witness, and I'll let Mr. Scott

21 deal with that in due course.

22 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, just for the

23 record, we are sharing the view of the Kordic Defence

24 in the raised matter.

25 JUDGE MAY: This is about the next witness?

Page 10182

1 MR. KOVACIC: Right -- no, I'm sorry, there's

2 a misunderstanding. Related to the issue of the Duncan

3 diary and milinfosums.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.

5 MR. KOVACIC: And, Your Honour, if I may --


7 MR. KOVACIC: -- if that is an appropriate

8 moment -- and let me continue in the Croatian language,

9 because it may be a little bit more difficult.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 JUDGE MAY: Is it a matter that you want to

16 raise about the next witness?

17 MR. KOVACIC: Yes.

18 JUDGE MAY: We better go into private session

19 then.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10183













13 pages 10183-10192 redacted closed session













Page 10193

1 [Open session]


3 Q. Witness U, is it correct that in

4 approximately the latter part of 1992, the first part

5 of 1993, some several hundred people lived in what

6 might be called the Santici area in Central Bosnia?

7 A. Yes. Yes, it is correct.

8 Q. Is it also correct that approximately

9 70 per cent of that population just referred to, in

10 your estimate, was Croat?

11 A. Yes, it is correct.

12 Q. And is it also correct that in that village

13 area, there were something like 15 Muslim or Bosniak

14 houses in the village?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. SCOTT: Now, for purposes of the Court,

17 if the witness has in front of him -- I believe you do

18 there, Witness U -- a map which is marked as Z2271,

19 although the usher might need to -- I'm sorry, some

20 assistance. And I think, for these purposes, there is

21 no reason why this can't be on the ELMO. It would be,

22 I think, the easiest way for everyone. If you can

23 focus on -- all right. That's okay.

24 Q. If you start with -- orient yourself to

25 Vitez, can you point out on the map where Santici is

Page 10194

1 located, and then perhaps the camera can zoom in on

2 that particular portion, if you can find it.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the video is not

4 terribly clear. I'm not sure if -- okay. That's

5 fine. All right.

6 Q. So you're pointing now to the village of

7 Santici, which, on the map, is probably something like

8 oh, three or four centimetres to the right of Vitez; is

9 that correct?

10 A. It is, yes.

11 Q. Can you just, by way of further orientation,

12 point out the village of Ahmici, which I believe you

13 will find a little further to the right.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 JUDGE MAY: That's, in fact, rather

16 misleading, isn't it? Because Ahmici is right next

17 door to Santici.

18 MR. SCOTT: It is, Your Honour. In fact,

19 that was my next question of the witness. If you look

20 at this map, it looks like there is considerable

21 distance; but I think the witness will indicate that it

22 is, to use the Court's word, somewhat misleading.

23 Q. Witness U, how close, in fact, on the ground,

24 is Santici to Ahmici?

25 A. Well, that locality seems to be joined. It's

Page 10195

1 about 500 metres from my home.

2 Q. Would it be fair to say, Witness U, that the

3 two villages in a sense kind of meld together?

4 A. Yes, they do meld together.

5 Q. And is it correct that perhaps -- you just

6 indicated that what might be considered, if we can use

7 the term in villages this small, the centre of Ahmici

8 would be about 500 metres from your house?

9 A. Yes, true.

10 Q. Let's move forward: Is it correct, sir, that

11 on the 18th of October, 1992, the HVO attacked

12 Santici. At about 8.00 that morning you heard gunshots

13 and went to the southwest balcony of your house; is

14 that correct?

15 A. It is, yes.

16 Q. You saw HVO soldiers running between the

17 houses. You recognised some of the soldiers as your

18 neighbours, although you did not know their names, or

19 at least all of their names. They wore camouflage

20 uniforms and camouflage bulletproof vests and were

21 carrying weapons?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. And one of the HVO soldiers appeared to you,

24 to your observation, to be going in the direction of

25 the HVO headquarters; is that correct?

Page 10196

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Now, when you say "HVO headquarters" in this

3 particular context, are you referring to a local

4 headquarters, if you will, in Santici?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if you can look at Exhibit Z1982, the

7 aerial photograph.

8 MR. SCOTT: And, Your Honour, I'll have to

9 clarify here: This reference to a building 15 is keyed

10 to a different diagram. It should have been simply

11 taken out of the outline, I suppose, but it was a key

12 to an earlier statement.

13 Q. If you look at Exhibit 1982, is it correct,

14 sir, that the HVO headquarters that you're referring to

15 now was in building or location 4?

16 A. Yes, that is so.

17 Q. In addition to being a headquarters or a

18 gathering -- a meeting place, that was also the house

19 of someone named Colic; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. It is.

23 Q. Moving forward, on the 18th of October, as

24 you began a few minutes ago, you saw a man named Nenad

25 Santic running down the road from his house wearing a

Page 10197

1 camouflage uniform and carrying an automatic rifle. He

2 turned the corner at the Pican Cafe and headed north on

3 the road to -- in the direction of Pirici, in the

4 direction of this same HVO headquarters; is that

5 correct?

6 A. It is, yes.

7 Q. And if you can just remind me, I apologise,

8 for the correct pronunciation of that cafe: Pican?

9 A. Pican. Pican.

10 Q. And on the Exhibit 1982, is that the location

11 number 2?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. Now, did you know that Nenad

14 Santic was a Croat and the commander of the -- the very

15 local commander of the HVO in the Santici area?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. About 30 minutes after seeing what you

18 described in the last couple of minutes, you saw a

19 yellow flat-bed truck with a three-barrel anti-aircraft

20 gun mounted on the back; this same Mr. Santic was on

21 the back of the truck with the anti-aircraft gun; you

22 saw the truck was going in the direction toward Ahmici;

23 and after this, you heard heavy firing. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 10198

1 Q. This same truck then came back and stopped in

2 front of your house. Mr. Santic aimed the

3 anti-aircraft gun at your house. About this time, Ivo

4 Vidovic and Anto Vidosevic came out of the Pican Cafe

5 and told Mr. Santic not to shoot at your house and, in

6 fact, he did not; is that correct?

7 A. It is, yes.

8 Q. And this same truck with the anti-aircraft

9 gun was then parked in front of Ivo Vidovic's house?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During these events around the 18th of

12 October of 1992, a 19-year-old Muslim man was killed.

13 You also saw Sakib Pezer trying to stop his house from

14 burning. Anes Pezer told you several days later that

15 his house and the mosque had also been struck by

16 bullets; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Shortly after the 18th of October, sir, is it

19 correct that again this same Nenad Santic, then also a

20 Miro Josipovic and another man named Zeljko, came to

21 your house; they searched the house and found the

22 pistol for which your father, in fact, had a permit;

23 and they took the pistol and your father to the local

24 HVO headquarters?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10199

1 Q. Did you learn from your father, sir, that at

2 that time, Mr. Santic threatened or made actions

3 toward, in fact, beating your father at the HVO

4 headquarters, but in the end, he did not?

5 A. Yes. True.

6 Q. All right. Now, Witness U, I'm going forward

7 a few days, to the 23rd of October. On that day, were

8 you sleeping in your room when you again heard

9 shooting, when a red van -- you got up, looked out.

10 There was a red van in front of your house with the

11 black letters "HVO" painted on the front of the van?

12 A. Yes, it is true.

13 Q. What else did you see at that time? What was

14 happening outside?

15 A. I saw a soldier holding a rifle aiming at the

16 sky, but he was saying, "Balijas, balijas," and firing

17 shots in the air, and others were breaking the glass

18 (redacted). They looted the store,

19 and after that, they boarded the van and headed towards

20 Vitez. Then they paused, and when they stopped, one

21 could hear two explosions. After that, they went on

22 towards Vitez.

23 Q. Were you able to determine, then, you and

24 your family, soon after this event, that, in fact, two

25 hand grenades had been tossed into the (redacted)?

Page 10200

1 A. Yes. Two grenades were tossed.

2 Q. Is it correct, sir, that about five minutes

3 after this, again the same Mr. Nenad Santic and Zeljko

4 Livancic arrived; your father told them what had

5 happened, told them that the van had gone in the

6 direction of Vitez; Mr. Santic was heard telling

7 Livancic that they should go toward Vitez. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. Is it also correct that about 30 minutes

11 later, Mr. Santic and Livancic came back to the house

12 with three HVO soldiers, one of whom you recognised or

13 was called, again, Ivo Vidovic, and another was --

14 perhaps you can remind me about his name.

15 A. Anto Papic.

16 Q. All five of these men, including Mr. Santic,

17 were wearing camouflage uniforms with HVO patches; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Two of them had automatic rifles?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, this same Zeljko Livancic had previously

23 attacked and beaten your father in a Croat store in

24 Santici; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 10201

1 Q. All right. Now, concerning these hand

2 grenades being thrown (redacted), can

3 you tell us, Witness U, to your knowledge was anyone

4 ever arrested or punished in connection with that

5 incident?

6 A. No, nobody ever.

7 Q. Can you tell the Court whether you believed

8 that Mr. Santic, in fact, would do something about it,

9 about this incident?

10 A. We did not.

11 Q. Why was that?

12 A. He said he was going towards Vitez to see

13 what it was about, and when he came back he said that

14 HVO soldiers were sleeping at the roadblock and they

15 had not seen any man. Before that, he searched the

16 house and was attacking my father in the HVO

17 headquarters, and then he seized the weapon for which

18 we had a permit, on no grounds at all. He gave us a

19 piece of paper, "Nenad Santic, Commander of the Santici

20 HVO."

21 Q. All these events leading you to the

22 conclusion that you did not expect Mr. Santic to take,

23 in fact, any action about this incident (redacted)

24 (redacted)?

25 A. We were not expecting him to do anything

Page 10202

1 about it.

2 Q. This incident, sir, caused, I take it,

3 obviously some fear and stress to your family?

4 A. Yes, it did, very much so.

5 Q. Is it correct, sir, then that continuing on

6 from about the time of these incidents in October 1992

7 and moving forward to April of 1993, that you and your

8 family were regularly receiving threatening telephone

9 calls because you were Muslim?

10 A. Yes, that is true.

11 Q. It appeared to you that during this time,

12 after October 1992, conditions, relationships were

13 deteriorating and it seemed to you that the Croats did

14 not want the Muslims to live in Santici any more?

15 A. Yes, it is true.

16 Q. All right. Sir, we're jumping to the 15th of

17 April, 1993. Can you tell the Court, do you recall

18 anything unusual about that day? Obviously, I think,

19 at this point you know it was the day before some other

20 tragedy, but on the 15th of April, was there anything

21 unusual to you about that day?

22 A. No. I was at school and everything was as

23 usual. I came home, got ready all my things for school

24 the next day, and I didn't to school then.

25 [Technical problem]

Page 10203


2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

3 Q. Sorry, Witness U. The last question pending

4 was: On the 15th of April, do you recall anything

5 unusual about that day, anything you saw around the

6 Santici, Ahmici area that seemed unusual to you?

7 A. No, nothing happened. As I said, I was at

8 school in Vitez. I came back and everything was as

9 usual. So I put together my things that I needed for

10 the next day and that was that.

11 Q. You were going to school in Vitez at that

12 time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell the Court, is it correct that on

15 the 15th of April, or the preceding days, for that

16 matter, was there any ABiH or Muslim military activity

17 in Santici, to your knowledge?

18 A. No, there wasn't.

19 Q. And is it correct that you did not see in

20 that area any defensive earthworks or positions,

21 military positions, either existing or being prepared

22 there?

23 A. Yes, that is true.

24 Q. All right. Now, directing you then to the

25 next day, the 16th of April, can you tell us what

Page 10204

1 happened starting early that morning, and perhaps you

2 can tell us part of this story in your own words.

3 A. In the morning we heard a powerful

4 explosion. My brother and I were in our room, and we

5 went to our parents' room. My brother said to our

6 father that there was this explosion, and our father

7 said that he knew that.

8 We all got up and came out into the hallway

9 because it was shielded and that is where we were.

10 Then we heard gunfire shots which came from the

11 direction of Pican's cafe and Anto Vidosevic's house

12 into my room and my brother's room and my father's

13 room. Then we went down to the ground floor, and we

14 took along our pillows and quilts with us because we

15 decided that we should be there and not go anywhere.

16 After that, we heard somebody say, "Boss,

17 Boss, come out of the house." My father opened the

18 door and said, "I have no weapons. I surrender." The

19 soldier then ordered us to come out with our hands up

20 and we did that.

21 He took us across the street to a fence and

22 told us to look in the opposite direction and turn our

23 backs on our house. We could hear them breaking the

24 windows and entering the house. One of them then

25 asked, "Do you have any weapons?" Father said, "We

Page 10205

1 don't." He said, "If we find any, we'll slit the

2 throats of all of you."

3 Q. How did these men, the ones who were outside

4 your door, how were they dressed?

5 A. They were in camouflage uniforms and they

6 were also painted with some creams on the face, and

7 they had HVO flashes.

8 One of them then told my father to come into

9 the house, and my father stayed there for a while and

10 then came back. He told us then that they had taken

11 the money which we had and his wallet.

12 Then I heard them talk and say, "What are we

13 to do with them?" One of them said, "Well, take them

14 to where the others are." So he told us to move down

15 the main road, and we went for about (redacted) metres

16 and then turned into the yard of Mustafa Dedic, Mujo.

17 We reached his house, which was on fire, and

18 there I saw Munib Ribo and Mustafa lying down killed.

19 Q. Before we go too far ahead, a few details.

20 When the HVO soldiers approached your house, I take it

21 your family dog became concerned, was barking and an

22 HVO soldier shot and killed your dog; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Then --

25 A. Yes. Yes. That's correct.

Page 10206

1 Q. The money that was taken from your father or

2 from inside the house, this was approximately

3 29.000 Deutschemarks?

4 A. Yes, 29.000 in the green safe, and I don't

5 know how much he had in his wallet.

6 As we were passing along the road, I saw that

7 there were many soldiers in front of Pican's cafe and

8 they were laughing at us. They were also wearing

9 camouflage uniforms and their faces were painted in

10 different colours.

11 Then I saw the bodies of Ribo Munib and

12 Mustafa Dedic. Then one of the two told my brother to

13 open the door of the garage, of Mustafa Dedic's garage,

14 and they told me and my mother to go into the garage.

15 My brother also tried to enter the garage, but he told

16 him to go back and to lock the garage.

17 After, that I heard shots immediately. I

18 peeped through the openings on the garage doors, the

19 openings between the boards, and I saw my father and

20 brother lying there dead.

21 Q. Why did they kill your father and brother?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Why did they? Why were they killed?

24 A. Because they were Muslims.

25 Q. Had your father or brother offered any

Page 10207

1 resistance at any time during that morning?

2 A. No, no resistance at all.

3 MR. SCOTT: In fact, I'm momentarily

4 referring back to paragraph 32, Your Honour.

5 Q. When the HVO tried to enter the garage at

6 your house, your brother, in fact, offered to open the

7 door for them rather than have the door broken; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, he offered the keys of the

10 garage and of the car but the soldier said nothing. He

11 continued breaking down the door and that's how it

12 was.

13 Q. Now, before you got to the garage where your

14 father and brother were killed, you said at the house

15 of Mujo Dedic you saw the bodies of two other Muslim

16 men, Mujo Dedic and Ribo Munib; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. If we can look at Exhibit Z1982, the aerial

19 photograph. Was Mr. Dedic's house -- is that location

20 number 5?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It was burning at the time when you walked by

23 the house; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it was burning. We were standing next

25 to it and it was burning. It was very hot.

Page 10208

1 Q. When you look now, in fact, at the

2 photograph, you can see that the roof is burned off of

3 the house; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. And the location of the garage where your

6 father and brother were killed, was that at location

7 number 6?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Continue on, please. What happen then after

10 your father and brother were killed?

11 A. After that we were told we mustn't go out,

12 not even to the toilet or to drink water, and if anyone

13 went out, he would be killed.

14 After that, I recognised Semren. His

15 nickname was Zuti. I recognised him. He was masked,

16 but he was easily recognisable, and he responded to a

17 woman calling him by name,"Semren, Semren, Zuti." I

18 also saw Drazenko Vidovic there.

19 We were there for a while and then we were

20 transferred to Nesib Ahmic's house, which was partly

21 burned down, and we spent the night there. In the

22 morning --

23 Q. Witness, before you go on, this Semren, was

24 his first name -- apart from his nickname "Zuti," was

25 his name Ivica?

Page 10209

1 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, his name is Ivica.

2 Q. Then you went to Nesib Ahmic's house, which

3 was partly burnt but partly still extant, and you spent

4 the night there?

5 A. Yes. Then in the morning some Croats in

6 civilian clothes came and took us to the HVO

7 headquarters. We were there. I sat with Heleg Munib,

8 right next to Heleg Munib, and he told me if anything

9 were to happen to him that I should let his son know

10 that it was Nenad Santic who was to blame for

11 everything. He had planned everything and that

12 everything started from him.

13 After that, two members of the HVO came in.

14 Again they were wearing camouflage uniforms, and they

15 took Hasim and his two sons. They wanted to take Haris

16 Dedic as well, but his mother begged, "Don't. Don't

17 take him. You've killed his brother and father already

18 so leave him." So didn't take him. They took Hasim

19 and his two sons and Munib Heleg.

20 After some time, Nikica Plavsic walked into

21 the room, nicknamed Slikar. Hasim's wife asked Nikica

22 where her husband and two sons were, and he said that

23 special forces had killed them and not to expect them

24 to return, and that they were going to go to Pirici to

25 set fire to everything and kill everyone as they had

Page 10210

1 done in Ahmici.

2 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment,

3 Witness U. As you were still being held in the garage,

4 is it correct that there was another young man, you

5 just referred to him, Haris Dedic, and that his father

6 and brother, who were both Muslims, had also been

7 killed earlier that day; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, his father and brother had been killed,

9 and they wanted to take him and kill him too.

10 Q. And this is when his mother intervened and

11 said, "You have already killed my husband and other

12 son, so don't take him"?

13 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

14 Q. So the record is clear on these four men, the

15 four men who were taken out, one was this man Heleg,

16 and then Hasim Ahmic and his two sons, Zenur Ahmic and

17 Amir Ahmic; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, yes, correct.

19 Q. And can you tell the Court, sir, did you, in

20 fact, ever see those four Muslim men alive again?

21 A. No. Never. I never saw them again.

22 MR. SCOTT: If I can ask the usher to show

23 you Exhibit Z1540.

24 Q. Is that the man that you saw that day, and

25 talked to, and then was taken away, named Heleg?

Page 10211

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness U, is it correct that it was your

3 conclusion or belief that the HVO soldiers who were in

4 Santici on the 16th of April were helped, or, in fact,

5 maybe included some of your neighbours, who were HVO,

6 in doing these things that you've described in the last

7 few minutes?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. Can you tell the Court why, in your view, was

10 it necessary that some of the Croats and your

11 neighbours from Santici were, in fact, involved in

12 these events, that is, in carrying them out?

13 A. Because people from the outside, if you bring

14 people from the outside, they can't distinguish between

15 Muslim and Croat houses. That is why I believe, and

16 that is true, that our neighbours helped them, that our

17 neighbours were involved in this.

18 Q. For the Court's general assistance,

19 Witness U, have you heard it to be something of a --

20 I'll use the worth "myth," or incorrect information,

21 that some people say that all Muslim houses have

22 four-sided roofs and that all Croat houses have

23 two-sided roofs, and that's the way that anyone looking

24 at the house can tell whether it's a Croat house or a

25 Muslim house? Is that true or false?

Page 10212

1 A. You cannot tell which house is whose.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. If I can direct your attention and the

6 Court's attention again to Exhibit 1982, if I can

7 direct your attention to locations 2 and 15, can you

8 tell us whether, to your knowledge, Croats lived in

9 those buildings, or Muslims?

10 A. Croats lived there.

11 Q. Yet when you look at the photograph, you can

12 see that, from the still-existing roofs, these were

13 four-sided roofs; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On the 16th of April, in Santici, sir, did

16 you see any Croat houses, houses where Croats lived,

17 burned or damaged?

18 A. No. Neither burnt nor damaged.

19 Q. Whereas if you look -- and if the Court can

20 take the time at its own leisure to look at

21 Exhibit 1982, its more length, you can look at, for

22 instance, locations 11, 10, 12, 7, 8, and a number of

23 others -- is it correct, Witness U, you can see that

24 all the roofs on those houses have been burned off?

25 A. Yes, correct.

Page 10213

1 Q. Let's move forward, then. After you had

2 spent some time in the garage from which these four men

3 were taken, what happened after that?

4 A. After that, two UNPROFOR vehicles arrived,

5 and the women with babies wanted to go to Zenica. Then

6 Jevco came running from Pirici, and he took those

7 UNPROFOR vehicles away from us. Later on we saw them

8 stop for a moment and then turn around and go off in

9 the direction of Vitez.

10 After that, all of us together headed towards

11 Vitez. We were stopped there at a point called

12 Dubravica, the old railway station. We stopped there,

13 and then, again, a Croat came by. His kum was Islam

14 Ahmic, and he had been killed, and he had put his women

15 and children in his car, and so he picked up me and

16 another boy, Ahmic Elmir, and took us to Vitez. My

17 mother stayed behind. She told me to go. She couldn't

18 come.

19 After that, we reached Vitez. I asked him to

20 go back, if he could, to get my mother. He said he

21 would try, but he didn't manage. I don't know what

22 happened. He didn't bring my mother over.

23 Q. Witness U, let me again stop on a few

24 details. You used just now the word "kum"; with the

25 interpreters' help, what does that mean?

Page 10214

1 A. When a baby is born, then somebody comes as a

2 godfather, and that is a kum. So they had that kind of

3 relationship, as families.

4 Q. All right. Now, before we move on, the HVO

5 soldiers that you saw in Santici on the 16th of April,

6 1993, at least the ones that you recognised, is it

7 correct, sir, that they were all from Santici?

8 A. Yes, it is correct.

9 Q. And is Santici part of the Vitez

10 municipality?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was it your understanding, therefore, at this

13 time, that these HVO soldiers in Santici were part of

14 the HVO Vitez Brigade and under the command and control

15 of the Vitez Brigade?

16 JUDGE MAY: Well, I'm not sure the witness is

17 in a position to so describe these events unless a

18 proper foundation is laid.

19 MR. SCOTT: Let me see if I can assist, Your

20 Honour.

21 Q. From your living in the area and interacting

22 with your Croat neighbours and seeing, in fact, some of

23 these same men who you recognised on the 16th of April,

24 did you know that there were in fact HVO members or

25 soldiers in the Santici area?

Page 10215

1 A. Yes. Yes, I did know them.

2 Q. Did you have any information, in talking with

3 any of these soldiers, what unit or brigade they were

4 part of?

5 A. I talked to Bruno Santic, and he lived in a

6 place that is separated from Santici by the river.

7 This place is called Donja Rovna. He told me that they

8 belonged to the Busovaca Brigade, to Busovaca.

9 Q. All right.

10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think we're

11 jumping ahead in the outline now and perhaps confusing

12 two different groups, so I will move forward. I think,

13 as the Court indicated, we probably can't go further

14 with that.

15 Q. All right. Now, as you then moved off from

16 this garage and went toward Vitez and then ultimately

17 to -- your mother stopped at the Dubravica school and

18 did not go on to this apartment in Vitez; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And do you remember, during these events, the

22 HVO soldier's name who told you that you would be

23 exchanged, the group of you would be exchanged and

24 taken to -- again, to Vitez or Dubravica?

25 A. Anto Papic.

Page 10216

1 Q. All right. Then you mentioned this Croat man

2 who had picked up some of you and taken you to an

3 apartment in Vitez; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How long were you at this apartment?

6 A. For 17 days.

7 Q. During the time when you were staying in

8 Vitez, did you see any bodies, or burned houses, in

9 Vitez in the area of where you were staying at that

10 time?

11 A. No, I didn't see any.

12 Q. Referring back to the people who had stayed

13 at the Dubravica school, did you ever talk afterwards

14 to Haris Dedic?

15 A. Yes, I did. I spoke to him, and he told me

16 that they had taken people to dig trenches, the

17 prisoners. They took the prisoners to dig trenches.

18 Q. And these prisoners, to your knowledge, were

19 Muslims?

20 A. Yes. Yes. Only Muslims.

21 Q. All right. Let's move forward, then, again.

22 Did there come a time when you left this apartment in

23 Vitez and went to another location?

24 A. Yes, we went to the elementary school in

25 Vitez, and they said that the Red Cross was there, that

Page 10217

1 we could apply and be registered, and we would be taken

2 to Zenica. However, nothing came of that. We were

3 there for three days. HVO soldiers were there.

4 After that, this Croat came who had brought

5 us to this apartment, and he took us to the road

6 towards Zenica. It's a roundabout road through the

7 mountains, and he told us to go alone, that he could

8 not help us, saying, "Surely they will not shoot."

9 So we headed off. We passed by the Muslim

10 cemetery. HVO soldiers were there digging trenches,

11 and I saw them drinking water. They didn't say

12 anything to us. We went on, and then we heard

13 shooting. Bullets flew over our heads, so we lay

14 down. Later on, we came to the conclusion that those

15 were snipers that were trying to hit us. And then we

16 proceeded.

17 Q. And you went on to Zenica, and is it fair to

18 say, sir, that you then lived in Zenica for the rest of

19 the war?

20 A. Yes. I lived in Zenica.

21 Q. All right. Again, a couple of details.

22 Just, in fairness, going back to the time you spent at

23 the elementary school in Vitez, you did not see, during

24 that particular occasion, any Muslims hurt or killed,

25 and did not see any women or girls taken away at that

Page 10218

1 location by the HVO; is that correct?

2 A. No, I didn't see any.

3 Q. And the size of this group that you were on

4 the road to Zenica with, how many people were you

5 travelling with at that time?

6 A. Eight to ten people.

7 Q. In concluding this part of these subjects,

8 let me ask you to look at -- and let me be specific

9 that these not be put on the ELMO, Your Honour, because

10 they would be identifying, or at least some of them

11 would be identifying. But if you can look, please,

12 first, at Exhibit Z1986.

13 MR. SCOTT: These are going to be several --

14 four or five photographs, Your Honour.

15 Q. The family shown in Exhibit 1986, who is

16 that, or who is the man? Let's start with that.

17 A. This is the late Ribo Munib. I saw him

18 killed (redacted).

19 Q. This was one of the two men who you saw --

20 whose bodies you saw on the ground near Mujo Dedic's

21 house; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. Exhibit 1987 is just a different photograph

24 of the same man and his family; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. That is correct.

Page 10219

1 Q. Let me direct your attention, next, to

2 Exhibit 1984. The man to the right of the photograph,

3 with no shirt, is that your father?

4 A. Yes, that is my father.

5 Q. And the young man approximately in the middle

6 of the photograph, with someone behind him in a striped

7 shirt, is that your brother, who was killed on the 16th

8 of April?

9 A. Yes. Yes, that is my brother.

10 Q. And are you in that picture, sir?

11 A. Yes, next to -- next to my brother, with a

12 cap on the head.

13 Q. You're the young boy in the white shirt; is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. And who is to your brother's right?

17 A. That is my mother.

18 Q. Exhibit 1985: Is that a photograph of your

19 brother, who was killed?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Moving forward, then, Witness U -- are you

22 okay?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You knew that this Nenad Santic was the HVO

25 commander in Santici, and he was -- in your view, was

Page 10220

1 he the one in Santici who was working the most or

2 taking the most actions against the Muslims in Santici?

3 A. Yes. Yes. It was Nenad Santic.

4 Q. During these events, or during 1992 and 1993,

5 did you know of a man named Dario Kordic?

6 A. Yes. I did know.

7 Q. And who did you know or understand Mr. Kordic

8 to be?

9 A. He was a highly influential person in Central

10 Bosnia, and I believe that he -- I don't know how to

11 put it -- that he was the leader down there of the HVO

12 in Central Bosnia.

13 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kordic in Santici?

14 A. Yes, I did see him.

15 Q. Directing your attention, then, to

16 approximately the end of October period of 1992, was it

17 around that time that you saw Mr. Kordic in Santici?

18 A. Yes, I did see him.

19 Q. Can you tell us, then, in your own words,

20 what you saw of Mr. Kordic that day?

21 A. I was coming back home from school, and

22 across the road from my house was Nenad Santic, in a

23 suit, and he was carrying a briefcase. I passed by

24 him. I greeted him and went home. After that, I saw a

25 jeep coming up, and I saw that there was the driver

Page 10221

1 inside and Dario Kordic. Nenad Santic got into the

2 jeep, and they drove off in the direction of Vitez.

3 Q. Was there any particular reason that you said

4 hello to this Mr. Santic as you walked by on your way

5 home from school?

6 A. Yes. He told Elmir Ahmic to tell all of us

7 that we would have to greet him whenever we saw him.

8 Q. When you say "all of us," sir, who are you

9 referring to?

10 A. Us Muslims.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

12 Mr. Scott. I should like to ask the witness whether

13 Mr. Santic had an official position in Santici at that

14 time.

15 A. He was an HVO commander in Santici. I don't

16 know exactly whether he had any formal position, but I

17 know that he was the HVO commander in Santici.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, if you come to a

19 convenient moment, we'll adjourn.

20 MR. SCOTT: There are one or two further

21 questions on this topic, Your Honour, but we can take

22 it just as easily after a break.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now

24 until half past 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

Page 10222

1 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Scott.


4 Q. Witness, before moving on then, if you could

5 look again at --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott.


8 Q. Before moving on, can you look again at

9 Exhibit 1982, the aerial photograph.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you point out approximately on the

12 photograph where you saw Mr. Santic standing or waiting

13 when you then later saw him being picked up in a car

14 with Mr. Kordic?

15 A. I saw him opposite me. He was there between

16 my house and Pican's restaurant. He was standing there

17 on the corner.

18 Q. All right. Given that reference, I'm not

19 going to ask that it be put on the ELMO for

20 identification, because it may be identifying.

21 Is it fair to say then -- let us go this

22 way: The point where Mr. Santic was standing was

23 something -- 50 metres or less from where you observed

24 this?

25 A. Less. About 30 metres.

Page 10223

1 Q. You said that there were two people in the

2 car, a driver and then you saw Dario Kordic; is that

3 correct?

4 A. It is, yes.

5 Q. All right. Now, continuing on, can you tell

6 the Court whether soon after when you saw this event in

7 Santici, did you see Mr. Kordic on television?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell the Court what you saw and what

10 you remember about that?

11 A. I saw that Dario Kordic and Slavica

12 Josipovic, they were on television together. It was a

13 meeting at Grude.

14 Q. And who was this Slavica Josipovic?

15 A. She was Nenad Santic's sister.

16 Q. To your knowledge, did she work in the HVO

17 headquarters in Vitez?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell the Court the approximate

20 connection in time or relationship in time between

21 seeing Mr. Santic and Mr. Kordic in Santici and then

22 when you saw Mr. Kordic on television concerning the

23 meeting in Grude?

24 A. It was either that same evening or the next

25 evening that I saw him on television.

Page 10224

1 Q. Moving on then, Witness U. Were you

2 childhood friends with someone named Bruno Santic?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. And this Mr. Santic, Bruno, had a brother by

5 the name of Leonard Santic, nicknamed Leno?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And these were the sons of Zvonko Santic and

8 they lived in Donja Rovna in the municipality Busovaca;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. I think you mentioned this earlier. Is it

12 correct that Donja Rovna is close to Santici but on the

13 opposite side of the Lasva River?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now, is it correct to say, sir,

16 that at least up until some point in time you and this

17 Bruno Santic continued to be friendly toward one

18 another?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall an occasion when Bruno Santic

21 said something to you about a military unit that he was

22 a member of?

23 A. Yes. He told me he was a member of a special

24 unit which was Kordic's special unit. That's what it

25 was called. He told me that the training was very hard

Page 10225

1 and that many could not pass it and that -- something

2 about Kordic having elected them -- selected specially

3 for that unit and that some of them were his

4 bodyguards.

5 Q. Do you understand where this unit was based

6 or where this training was taking place?

7 A. All I know is that it was in Busovaca, that

8 the training ground was in Busovaca, but I really don't

9 know where the training itself was taking place.

10 Q. Let me ask you to look -- well, did you see

11 any patches on, when you had this conversation, Bruno

12 Santic? Did you see any insignia or patches on his

13 uniform?

14 A. Yes. He had an HVO patch.

15 Q. And did he have a brother -- did you see his

16 brother on this particular occasion or at some point

17 around this time see the two of them together;

18 Leonard?

19 A. I saw them both together and separately. We

20 used to meet, and his brother had an HVO patch.

21 Q. All right. Let me just ask you: Did one of

22 them have an HV patch and the other have an HVO patch,

23 or did they both have the came patches?

24 A. One, Bruno, had an HV [realtime transcript

25 read in error HVO] patch, and Leno had an HVO [realtime

Page 10226

1 transcript read in error HV] patch.

2 Q. I'm going to ask you to look, please, at

3 Exhibit 1458,1, and again because of some markings on

4 that exhibit, I ask that it not be displayed and that

5 it will be sealed, but if the witness and the Court can

6 look at a hard copy, if you will, of 1458,1.

7 Sir, is that a drawing that you made of the

8 patch, the HV patch or insignia that you saw on Bruno

9 Santic's uniform?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 JUDGE MAY: I thought the witness said that

12 Bruno had the HV patch and Leonard had the -- Bruno had

13 the HVO patch and Leonard had the HV patch. Perhaps

14 you could clear that up.

15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I'm looking

16 back at the transcript myself, but let's just simply

17 ask again.

18 Q. Between the two brothers, sir -- can you just

19 be as clear as possible in response to the Judge's

20 question -- which of the brothers had the HV patch and

21 which had the HVO patch?

22 A. Bruno Santic, Bruno Santic had an HV patch

23 and Leonard Santic's patch was HVO.

24 Q. It was Bruno Santic who told you that he was

25 in this Dario Kordic special unit?

Page 10227

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did Bruno Santic say anything to you about

3 how the members of this unit were selected? I'm sorry,

4 I'm looking at the transcript. I don't know if you

5 answered that or not. Did he tell you how the members

6 of this unit were selected?

7 A. That he -- that Dario Kordic selected them

8 himself and that the training was very hard and that it

9 lasted for two months. That's what he told me.

10 Q. Very well. Is it fair to say, Witness U,

11 that you can recall seeing Mr. Kordic on television

12 approximately five times?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These were usually something we might call

15 press conferences?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How would Mr. Kordic be dressed during these

18 televised press conferences?

19 A. At times he would be in a camouflage uniform

20 and at times he was in civilian clothes.

21 Q. And is it correct that you remember seeing

22 Colonel Blaskic at least two of these same press

23 conferences together with Mr. Kordic?

24 A. Yes, that is true.

25 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Kordic speaking on the

Page 10228

1 radio?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what, if anything, do you remember him

4 saying?

5 A. On that occasion, he talked about war. I

6 didn't really understand what he was saying, but he

7 said something like the Muslims and Croats could not go

8 on living together any more.

9 Q. And finally, one last other point of

10 information, sir: During the time of the war, had you

11 also known or heard of an HVO unit which wore black

12 uniforms and were called the Jokeri?

13 A. Yes, I did hear about them.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness U.

15 MR. SCOTT: We have no further questions.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] With your

17 leave, Your Honours, may we be the first ones to

18 cross-examine the witness?

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

22 Q. I'm Bozidar Kovacic. I'm a lawyer from

23 Rijeka, from Croatia. I'm sorry we have to look at one

24 another across this. I am the counsel for the second

25 accused, Mario Cerkez, in this case, together with my

Page 10229

1 colleague Mr. Mikulicic. I am sorry, I know you

2 suffered losses in this war, but I nevertheless need to

3 ask you some questions so as to clarify certain

4 points. We both speak the same language, so I

5 should -- and this same holds true of me; let us try to

6 make pauses so that the interpreters have time to

7 translate both answers and questions. I trust I shall

8 be rather brief.

9 So, Witness U, could you tell me, at that

10 time, you were a young man in the secondary school, at

11 the time when all those things happened. In 1992,

12 before the incident you told us about in October '92

13 took place, did you see any village guards before that?

14 A. Yes, I used to see them.

15 Q. So tell us, were those village guards of a

16 mixed composition? That is, did both Muslims and

17 Croats from the village take part in them? Or were

18 they monoethnic?

19 A. In the beginning, they were mixed, and later

20 on Croats took those village guards upon themselves.

21 Q. And did those men who participated in village

22 guards wear some uniforms?

23 A. The Croats did. The Muslims did not have any

24 uniforms, so they were in civilian clothes.

25 Q. And was it a rule without an exception, or

Page 10230

1 was it the general picture?

2 A. Well, some may have had a shirt or something,

3 I mean a camouflage shirt or something, but very few of

4 them.

5 Q. Does that hold true of both parties?

6 A. No, no, no, this holds true only of the

7 Muslim party. The Croats had uniforms with HVO

8 flashes.

9 Q. Did all the Croats wear the same kind of

10 clothes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And from what you know, what kind of weapons

13 did the Croats serving on village guards have?

14 A. Different types of weapons, but by and large,

15 automatic rifles.

16 Q. Would you know anything about how they

17 obtained those weapons?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. Thank you. Nenad Santic, whom you mentioned

20 a couple of times, was he also part of these village

21 guards?

22 A. He did not go out on guard duty, because he

23 was an HVO commander in Santici.

24 Q. In 1992, the HVO in Santici, the only thing

25 they did was go on guard?

Page 10231

1 A. Why, yes, and he was a commander. A

2 commander won't go out to stand guard, would he?

3 Q. So you think that he was the one who issued

4 the orders of assignment, and duties, and things like

5 that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did you learn that? Was that common

8 knowledge in the village?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Nobody talked about that to you

11 personally, showed you a paper?

12 A. Well, when he searched the house and seized

13 our pistol, he gave us a piece of paper, and I have it

14 at home in Bosnia. It said that a pistol of

15 such-and-such make was being seized, and under it, it

16 said, "HVO Commander, Nenad Santic."

17 Q. Thank you. The conflict that you told us

18 about, or better said, the attack in October '92, that

19 was, I believe, on the 18th of October. Are you quite

20 sure that it was the 18th of October, or the 20th of

21 October?

22 A. 18th of October.

23 Q. Because, at that time, there was another

24 skirmish because a roadblock was put up above the

25 Catholic cemetery. Do you know anything about that?

Page 10232

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. You mentioned that down there -- that is,

3 that a young man was killed in the village that night?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see him die?

6 A. I didn't.

7 Q. Did you hear about the circumstances?

8 A. All I heard was that he was killed.

9 Q. But you did not hear that it happened at that

10 roadblock?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So you do not know if he was killed at that

13 roadblock?

14 A. No, I don't know.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell me just one thing: This

16 photograph which we used here, Z1982, I suppose you

17 don't know when it was taken?

18 A. It must have been taken after the conflict,

19 after the HVO attack.

20 Q. But you do not know how long after that?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 JUDGE MAY: The witness wouldn't know, but no

23 doubt the Prosecution, if it's important, can assist as

24 to when this aerial photograph was taken.

25 Mr. Scott, no doubt you can help us at some

Page 10233

1 stage.

2 MR. SCOTT: I can inquire, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Tell me, please, your house, as you come --

6 because on this photograph we do not see how this is

7 turned, but the house that you indicated to us, which

8 is marked number 1, as you come from Vitez, as you go

9 to Busovaca, eastward, where is it? On the left-hand

10 side of the road?

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10234

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise. It was really my

9 fault. Okay, I'll go around.

10 JUDGE MAY: If at any time you want to go

11 into private session, just ask.

12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I don't think

13 it will be necessary.

14 Q. So between those (redacted) in the place,

15 were they competing?

16 A. What do you mean, "competing"?

17 Q. Well, there are two (redacted) in a very

18 small area. Were they rivals?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So the owner of (redacted) a Croat, wasn't

21 he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Tell me, please, you told us that some

25 soldiers in a van came to your house, and then you

Page 10235

1 found out that they'd thrown grenades (redacted)

2 (redacted). Did you or your father or any other member

3 of your family report that incident to the police?

4 A. I wouldn't know exactly. I know that father

5 called somebody by telephone, but I don't know what he

6 said. He called Nenad and somebody else, but I don't

7 know what about exactly.

8 Q. Was he asking Nenad Santic to intercede or

9 something?

10 A. Yes. When he seized the weapon, he said if

11 anything, then that we should call him.

12 Q. Thank you. And the building number 4, which

13 you marked and which you said housed the HVO

14 headquarters in the village, was it its only purpose,

15 or did it serve some other purpose, too?

16 A. On the ground floor was the headquarters, and

17 they lived on the upper floor.

18 Q. So wouldn't it be true to say that it was a

19 private house, a private home, and that Santic used the

20 ground floor as his commanding post?

21 A. All I know is that it was the HVO

22 headquarters, and above it were residential premises.

23 Q. But the ground-floor premises, were they used

24 also for some village meetings when those were held?

25 A. Well, it was HVO soldiers who usually

Page 10236

1 gathered there.

2 Q. But wasn't it a place where people used to

3 meet and hold meetings even before the war?

4 A. I wouldn't know.

5 Q. Thank you. You said that when those soldiers

6 arrived one of them called your father to come out,

7 calling him, "Chief, chief."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you perhaps recognise the voice?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So you don't know who it was?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. You mentioned Anto Papic, who told you that

14 you would be exchanged and so on. In an earlier

15 statement you had said that he explicitly told you that

16 he would take care of you and that nobody would kill

17 you. Do you remember that statement?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. So can I take it from this that Anto Papic

20 wanted to calm you down?

21 A. I don't know what he wanted.

22 Q. But he did say what I just said?

23 A. Yes, he did. He was the guard there.

24 Q. Tell me, please, when you spent those 17 days

25 in that apartment in Vitez, Vitez Television came there

Page 10237

1 one day, didn't they?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And they made a feature about it, didn't

4 they?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You made a statement?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So you didn't speak during that filming?

9 A. No. They just filmed us and nobody said

10 anything.

11 Q. Was there a TV set in that apartment?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you later see that feature?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Did you hear that it had been broadcast?

16 A. Yes, I did hear it, but I don't know anything

17 about it.

18 Q. Does that mean that somebody told you that

19 they saw you on television?

20 A. They filmed us. We didn't say anything.

21 This was very brief. They came with a camera and they

22 left. I assume it was shown on television. Why else

23 would they have filmed us?

24 Q. But in any event, you didn't make any

25 statements?

Page 10238

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago, towards

3 the end of your testimony, that Slavica Josipovic used

4 to work in the HVO headquarters in Vitez.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you say "HVO headquarters in Vitez,"

7 what institution do you mean or, rather, which

8 building?

9 A. I don't know exactly.

10 Q. You don't know, for instance, that in the

11 Vitez Hotel that the Operative Zone of the HVO had its

12 headquarters?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you know that in the cinema in the

15 Workers' University there was another headquarters?

16 A. I heard about the cinema while I spent 17

17 days there. Sulejman was taken to the cinema for

18 interrogation.

19 Q. So you don't know in which building Slavica

20 worked?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. You don't know perhaps the name of the

23 institution in which she worked?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. Tell us, please, Witness U, your village,

Page 10239

1 Santici, is actually very close to the municipal

2 border. Do you know where the border is?

3 A. No. I just know that Rovna is across the

4 Lasva, and further on I don't know.

5 Q. In connection with the TV crew that came to

6 the apartment that we have just mentioned, do you

7 remember that Sulejman Dajic made a statement?

8 A. No.

9 Q. But he was there?

10 A. I don't know whether he was, because he was

11 taken twice to the cinema, as I just said.

12 Q. Do you know that the TV Vitez studio was

13 housed in the cinema hall?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You never heard that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Very well. You said in your testimony that

18 this Croat eventually took you to the road via

19 Vjetrenica, the road that goes via Vjetrenica to

20 Zenica. Is that true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And from thereon you went on foot?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On that road, do you know what Sivrino Selo

25 is?

Page 10240

1 A. I know that it is some way removed from the

2 road. I think so at least.

3 Q. So once you start climbing along this road

4 toward Vjetrenica, after a couple of kilometres you

5 come to Sivrino Selo; is that right?

6 A. Yes, to the right. On the right-hand side.

7 Q. So that area was under the control of the

8 Muslim forces?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Are you telling us that you walked all the

11 way to Zenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where did someone pick you up and drive you

14 there?

15 A. We stopped there and I was recognised by a

16 friend, a family friend, and he put us in a car and he

17 drove us there.

18 Q. Do you know where this was?

19 A. I don't know exactly.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. You told us that you

21 were detained in the elementary school in Vitez for

22 three days?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us which unit guarded that

25 place? Who were the guards? Were they military

Page 10241

1 police?

2 A. HVO soldiers in camouflage uniforms. I don't

3 know whether they were the police or not.

4 Q. You couldn't tell from any insignia what unit

5 they belonged to?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, did you ever see

8 on television Mr. Cerkez?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Cerkez in Santici?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did the troops in Santici ever mention

13 Cerkez?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

16 think I have no further questions for this witness, and

17 thank you.

18 Thank you, Witness U.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, before you finish,

20 may I be sure that I have the position right, that

21 there is no dispute or no challenge to the witness's

22 evidence that soldiers in camouflage uniform with cream

23 on their faces and HVO flashes came to his house on the

24 16th of April, and no challenge to the events of the

25 day as he described them. Because if there is any

Page 10242

1 challenge to that or any dispute, then it should be put

2 so the witness has got a chance to deal with it now.

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

4 I think that you summarised our position well. We are

5 not challenging the fact that certain HVO soldiers came

6 to the house; secondly, we really do not know exactly

7 what happened in Santici that morning.

8 The only thing that we challenge is that they

9 were not HVO soldiers of the Vitez Brigade. And the

10 witness knows nothing about that. From the other

11 questions and answers, it is evident that he did not

12 recognise any closer insignia.

13 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic,

15 you were saying that you challenge what the witness

16 said, and that is HVO troops intervened at Santici and

17 that they were apart of the Vitez Brigade.

18 Mr. Kovacic, I am addressing you.

19 You said that you are challenging that the

20 soldiers that intervened in Santici were part of the

21 Vitez Brigade. Are you also contesting that Santici

22 was territorially a part of the Vitez command?

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

24 Honour. No, I'm not challenging that. Territorially

25 and according to administrative municipal borders,

Page 10243

1 Santici is a part of Vitez municipality, but we will

2 show documents later on to show this, that they're

3 actually bordering with the neighbouring municipality.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

6 Your Honours.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

8 Q. Mr. U, allow me to introduce myself. I am

9 attorney Mitko Naumovski, one of the Defence counsels

10 for Dario Kordic. I have several questions for you but

11 please remember the warning to wait a minute for your

12 answer until the question has been translated.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

14 about these events in Ahmici and Santici, you have had

15 occasion to hear extensive testimony, so I have only a

16 few questions for this witness so as not to remind him

17 of the terrible tragedy that he experienced.

18 Q. Mr. U, you gave five statements to the

19 investigators of The Hague Tribunal?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you testified in the case against

22 General Blaskic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Apart from those statements, did you also

25 make a statement for the centre of the security

Page 10244

1 services in Zenica or some other body?

2 A. No.

3 Q. While you went to school you went to the

4 elementary school?

5 A. No. I went to the secondary school.

6 Q. What year were you?

7 A. First year, I think.

8 Q. Did you keep any kind of school diary or

9 something like that?

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. My colleague has asked you something about

16 this so I have just one more. If I understood you

17 well, you have no knowledge at all about the fact that

18 at the end of October 1992 there was an obstacle placed

19 on the Vitez-Busovaca road and that there was a

20 conflict there.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Not only do you not have any personal

23 knowledge, but you didn't hear anything about it.

24 A. When the attack occurred, I heard that this

25 young man had been killed.

Page 10245

1 Q. But that is what you said occurred on the

2 18th of October?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The secondary school you went to, it was a

5 school attended by members of all ethnic groups?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And you went to school together until the

8 15th of April, 1993? That was the last day?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. When you spoke about this event in October,

11 if I understood you correctly, you just saw soldiers

12 wearing camouflage uniforms, on the 18th of October?

13 A. Yes. I saw them with HVO insignia and that

14 is what I said.

15 Q. You said that you recognised your neighbours,

16 didn't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But you don't know the names of those

19 neighbours that you recognised that moment?

20 A. Those I knew, I mentioned.

21 Q. One of the people you recognised is Nenad

22 Santic, that you have spoken about?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You already said that he was the local

25 commander of the HVO, as you've said, in Santici?

Page 10246

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You heard that Nenad Santic was killed later

3 in Novi Travnik?

4 A. Yes, I heard something about it, but I don't

5 know exactly.

6 Q. You were a school pupil, and you probably

7 don't know much about these things, but I still have to

8 ask you: Do you have any personal knowledge about the

9 organisation of Territorial Defence in Santici, Ahmici,

10 and that area?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Nor were any members of your household or

13 your neighbours a member of the TO?

14 A. Yes, my brother was a member.

15 Q. The Territorial Defence in Santici, did it

16 have a separate department? Was it separate?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were they, then, part of the Ahmici

19 department?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Where, then, where was your brother?

22 A. He was part of the Vitez Territorial

23 Defence.

24 Q. Let us now go on to the events of April '93.

25 You told us that a Croat helped you and transferred you

Page 10247

1 to that apartment where you spent 17 days?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can we tell his name, or will that contribute

4 to disclosing your own identity?

5 A. As he is known in Vitez, I would rather not

6 mention his name.

7 Q. Never mind, then.

8 A few more questions about this. Towards the

9 end of your testimony today, you said that you saw

10 soldiers with Jokers insignia?

11 A. Yes, I did, and I heard about them.

12 Q. You don't know who the commander of the

13 Jokers was?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. You don't know the names of any Jokers?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. Let us now go on to a few questions linked to

18 Mr. Dario Kordic that you mentioned today. You said

19 that you were a student of the first year of secondary

20 school, so I assume you were not a member of any party;

21 you were not involved in politics?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You also had no military duties, so you have

24 no knowledge about military matters; isn't that so?

25 A. Yes, one could put it that way.

Page 10248

1 Q. Did you, as a student of the first year of

2 secondary school, have any knowledge about the method

3 and organisation of the authorities in Vitez

4 municipality in those days?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you don't know who held which office, and

7 that sort of thing?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. Today you spoke about your views regarding

10 the position of Mr. Dario Kordic. That was a

11 conclusion of your own, wasn't it?

12 A. I said what I thought.

13 Q. My question is, if that is the conclusion you

14 came to, what was that conclusion based on? You did

15 not follow political events, you didn't know who held

16 which position, so what is your conclusion based on?

17 A. Dario Kordic had his special unit -- may I

18 ask you a question? Why did he appear in public

19 wearing a uniform?

20 JUDGE MAY: Witness U, I'm afraid you've got

21 to answer the questions rather than ask them.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

23 Your Honours.

24 Q. I just asked you to explain what your

25 conclusion was based on.

Page 10249

1 A. But I already have.

2 Q. Because he was on television?

3 A. Yes, and because he had a special unit.

4 Q. But you only know about it from what Bruno

5 Santic told you?

6 A. Yes, Bruno Santic.

7 Q. Which Santic?

8 A. Bruno Santic.

9 Q. Oh, Bruno; I see.

10 A. Yes, Bruno, Bruno.

11 Q. I said Susnja; I'm sorry. Bruno Santic.

12 That's right.

13 Let us focus for a moment on this event when

14 you said you saw Dario Kordic in Santici. You don't

15 know exactly what date it was?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. Tell us, please: Today you said that you

18 first saw Nenad Santic standing at the bus station?

19 A. Yes. Right across the road.

20 Q. You don't have to tell us, just for

21 identification purposes, in your own interest.

22 You said that the distance was some 30 metres

23 from which you saw him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were watching from the first floor?

Page 10250

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. From the statement I received today from the

3 Prosecutor, it says explicitly that you were watching

4 from a distance of some 50 metres.

5 A. 30 metres.

6 Q. You're saying that today?

7 A. No, I'm saying 30 metres, the distance was.

8 Q. I'm just reminding you of what you told the

9 investigator. Is that a mistake, then? At that

10 interrogation, Mr. Patrick Lopez-Terres was present,

11 one of the Prosecutors, and it says here that you were

12 watching this from a distance of 50 metres.

13 A. 30 metres.

14 Q. Very well. Mr. Nenad Santic was in civilian

15 clothes?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But otherwise, he always wore a uniform in

18 October '92?

19 A. Mostly he wore a uniform.

20 Q. From what direction did this car come?

21 A. From the direction of Busovaca.

22 Q. Could you tell us a little more about the

23 car? The colour?

24 A. I don't remember the colour. I know it was a

25 jeep.

Page 10251

1 Q. A military or civilian vehicle?

2 A. A civilian vehicle.

3 Q. Could you perhaps see the license plate?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Tell us, please: You said that you

6 immediately recognised Mr. Kordic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In the car?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where was he sitting in the car?

11 A. He was sitting on the side closest to my

12 house.

13 Q. But in relation to the driver?

14 A. He was sitting so that I could see him at the

15 window.

16 Q. But what seat in the car?

17 A. Behind. Behind, to the right of the driver.

18 Q. Could you tell us what his hairstyle was

19 like?

20 A. Mr. Kordic had a short haircut. His hair was

21 cut short.

22 Q. Did you see whether he was wearing glasses?

23 A. Yes, he was wearing glasses.

24 Q. Did he have a thick frame on those glasses?

25 A. I don't know that.

Page 10252

1 Q. Did you notice what kind of clothing he was

2 wearing?

3 A. No, but on television, I saw him in civilian

4 clothes.

5 Q. So you didn't notice what clothing he had

6 on. How long did the car stand there while Nenad

7 Santic got in?

8 A. Just for a minute.

9 Q. Maybe less than a minute, just for Nenad

10 Santic to get on?

11 A. No, it wasn't less than a minute.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] All these

13 questions, are you contesting the fact that Kordic was

14 in Santici, or what?

15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

16 Honour. Mr. Kordic was not in Santici. That is our

17 position.

18 If I may proceed?

19 Q. Mr. U, your first statement was given a year

20 and six months after all these events, on the 17th of

21 October, 1994. I assume you remember that?

22 A. Up to a point.

23 Q. You said, describing this event, quite

24 contrary to what you said today, that Dario Kordic was

25 wearing a camouflage uniform with an HVO patch on his

Page 10253

1 shoulder.

2 A. No, what I said today is correct.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

4 unfortunately I only have this single copy of that

5 statement; but if necessary, if you think it is

6 necessary, I should like to show the witness this

7 statement so he can read himself what he said and what

8 he signed.

9 JUDGE MAY: You can read out to him that he

10 said that Mr. Kordic was in a camouflage uniform, and

11 he says that that's wrong. Now, is there anything else

12 that you want to put in the statement?

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll

14 come to that immediately.

15 Q. Speaking about this event, you just said that

16 you saw Mr. Dario Kordic and Nenad Santic, didn't you?

17 But when you made this first statement, and that is the

18 second reason why I wish to show it to you, you said

19 that Mr. Kordic was with Nenad Santic and Slavica

20 Josipovic.

21 A. I must have been confused, because I saw

22 Slavica Josipovic on television that night with

23 Kordic.

24 Q. I understand what you said, but I have to

25 tell you that in this statement, there is no mixup.

Page 10254

1 You then said that Dario Kordic and Slavica entered his

2 car.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I can read

4 out the whole sentence, if Your Honours permit. Shall

5 I read the whole sentence?

6 JUDGE MAY: Unless it adds anything to what

7 you've put to the witness -- you've put what the

8 statement says; the witness says that he was confused.

9 I don't know that we can take it, really, very much

10 further than that.

11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I understand,

12 Your Honours, with respect, but I believe that from

13 this context, you will also see whether this is a

14 confusion of some sort or something else. That is why

15 I thought it would be better if I read it out.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Read the statement, then.

17 But before you do, have the Prosecution got

18 the passage? You have?

19 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. We have that

20 one, and I think there is also --

21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] So it is

22 page 6 in the English version, I believe.

23 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. We do have it,

24 and there is also a correcting later statement in which

25 this statement was corrected.

Page 10255

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If necessary, you can

2 deal with that.

3 You can read the sentence now,

4 Mr. Naumovski.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Here it is: "Dario Kordic was with Nenad

7 Santic and Slavica Josipovic. Slavica used to work for

8 the HVO headquarters in Vitez. As I passed by, I

9 greeted Nenad Santic, because we had to greet him.

10 Dario Kordic was in a camouflage union [as interpreted]

11 with an HVO flash. Slavica was in civilian clothes.

12 Dario Kordic and Slavica entered his car and drove

13 away."

14 Now I've read the whole context.

15 A. I just told you a moment ago that I was mixed

16 up.

17 Q. So what you say here is not true?

18 A. What is true is that I saw Dario Kordic with

19 Nenad Santic; that is, that Nenad Santic boarded his

20 car and they drove away together. That is true, and I

21 don't know what else.

22 Q. So you're denying what I've just read to you?

23 A. No, I'm not denying, but I was confused at

24 the time and --

25 JUDGE MAY: There is no need to say anything

Page 10256

1 more about this. You have put the matter. The witness

2 has answered it. The matter is now plain. Let us move

3 on.

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

5 Your Honours.

6 Q. Speaking about Mrs. Slavica Josipovic,

7 Slavica Josipovic was one of the prominent members of

8 the HVO in Vitez. Were you aware of that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know that Slavica Josipovic is, at

11 present, a member of the presidency of the HVO -- of

12 the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. I used to see her, yes.

14 Q. Let us move on to another topic, and that is

15 on to Bruno, Leonard Santic, a couple of questions.

16 If I understand the statement properly, I

17 mean, the statement which was made in December 1998 in

18 the presentation of Mr. Patrick Lopez-Terres, this

19 Bruno Santic was a little bit older than you, wasn't

20 he?

21 A. Yes. I think four years my senior.

22 Q. Well, not really a little bit, but if you say

23 "four," then it's four?

24 A. Yes. Yes, four.

25 Q. You told us today -- let us not repeat all

Page 10257

1 that -- what unit he belonged to and so on and so

2 forth. Did he also mention to you that he was also a

3 member of the Busovaca Brigade, because that was his

4 position there?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And apart from that flash which you say was

7 an HV, was his uniform in any way different from his

8 brother's uniform, Leonard?

9 A. No. Uniforms are the same, it's only that

10 the flashes were different.

11 Q. But we shall agree that, as you say, Leonard

12 was a member of the Busovaca Brigade, the HVO Brigade

13 in Busovaca?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And Bruno Susnja -- no. There I go once

16 again. Bruno Santic, you were on friendly terms with

17 him? You were friends for a long time?

18 A. Yes. We were friends for a long time.

19 Q. So you must know that he never was in the HV?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. But was he absent from home for a long time

22 so that you would know?

23 A. Well, we were not all that close to keep

24 visiting one another all the time.

25 Q. You told us today that only he was with that

Page 10258

1 unit and that his brother wasn't. Is that so?

2 A. He told me that he was with Kordic's special

3 unit and that his brother wasn't.

4 Q. When you made this statement a year and a

5 half after the events that I spoke about earlier, on

6 the same page in the English version you also said that

7 the two of them told you the whole story about that.

8 A. Yes. Yes. His brother was with him when he

9 told me that.

10 Q. What I wanted to tell you is that what you

11 said explicitly then was that Leonard was also a member

12 of that unit together with his brother.

13 A. No, only Bruno was a member.

14 Q. But you agree that you said earlier what I've

15 just read to you?

16 A. I'm sorry, I have no answer to that.

17 JUDGE MAY: He's agreed with it. Yes, let's

18 move on.

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

20 Q. About six years and six months have elapsed

21 more or less since the events that you spoke about.

22 In conclusion, referring to what you heard on

23 the radio, you said that Mr. Kordic was saying

24 something about the war but that you didn't really get

25 his meaning, did you?

Page 10259

1 A. No. I did understand what he said, that the

2 Muslims and the Croats could not go on living together

3 anymore. That is one thing I understood very well.

4 Q. But could you please define it closer? When

5 did you hear it said?

6 A. I can't.

7 Q. But what year was it?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Where were you when you heard that?

10 A. At home.

11 Q. So it was before the war?

12 A. I wouldn't really know when but I was at

13 home.

14 Q. Witness U, I must say this: You gave five

15 statements. You also testified in the Blaskic case,

16 which makes it the sixth time. This is the first time

17 today that you are mentioning that Mr. Kordic ever said

18 something on the radio. You never mentioned that

19 before?

20 A. True. I did not deem it all that important,

21 but now it turns out that it is very important.

22 Q. Yes, I know, but I also must tell you that

23 when you made your first statement, you were asked to

24 speak about relevant things and you immediately told

25 them all that you knew about Mr. Kordic. At that time,

Page 10260

1 of course, your memory was much fresher than now, six

2 years later.

3 A. Well, maybe not. Maybe now I'm beginning to

4 get a clear picture of it all.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

6 Your Honours, for your patience. I have no more

7 questions. I should also like to thank the witness.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

9 Q. Witness U, when your further statement was

10 taken on approximately the 15th of December of last

11 year, 1998 -- and I'll have to ask, obviously, for this

12 to be translated to you rather than show it to you, the

13 copy I have is English -- do you remember giving a

14 statement at that time and now I'm quoting: "During my

15 first interview, I had mentioned that Slavica

16 Josipovic, Nenad Santic's sister, was there. Today I

17 no longer remember whether she was. However, I do

18 remember very well that on that same evening or on the

19 day after the meeting, I saw Kordic, Santic, and

20 Slavica Josipovic together in a televised report

21 covering a demonstration which had taken place in

22 Grude."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you also say, on the 15th of December

25 last year, that: "During my preceding interview, it

Page 10261

1 was mistakenly stated that Bruno's brother, Leonard,

2 was also a member of the special unit. Leonard was

3 only a member of the HVO forces in Busovaca. I have

4 not had any further contact with Bruno and his family

5 since I left Santici."

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. SCOTT: No further questions, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE MAY: Witness U, that concludes your

10 evidence and you are released. Thank you for coming to

11 the International Tribunal to give evidence.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Just wait a moment and then you

14 can go.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 MR. NICE: The next witness is going to be

17 taken by Mr. Lopez-Terres. Here he is.

18 Just before we part from the last witness, as

19 the Chamber knows, witnesses -- Croat witnesses of the

20 type referred to by the last witness are not generally

21 available to us for obvious reasons. I mention that

22 because, of course, at some stage the Chamber may, and

23 I don't know what the court's provisional attitude is

24 going to be, but it may be thinking of calling

25 witnesses on its own account, and such witnesses may or

Page 10262

1 may not be more amenable to the summons of the Trial

2 Chamber than they are to the Prosecution.

3 JUDGE MAY: Speaking of myself, I wasn't, but

4 no doubt it can be considered.

5 There was the matter which you wanted to

6 raise before we start on the next witness.

7 MR. NICE: Yes. I understand the Chamber

8 would prefer to deal with it at 9.15 tomorrow morning.

9 I can make it at 9.15 tomorrow morning, although I have

10 to see someone at I think half past 9.00 and a hearing

11 in the other Chamber at 10.00. If because of the hour

12 and knowing that it takes five minutes to change from

13 one mode to another the Chamber would rather take the

14 ex parte matter now, I'm in the Chamber's hands. What

15 I have to say is, I think, very short, it's just a

16 question of having the arrangements made for the

17 ex parte hearing to be properly recorded.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MAY: Rather than start on the witness

20 for quarter of an hour, since we're not sitting this

21 afternoon, it may be more convenient to deal with the

22 ex parte matter now.

23 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE MAY: Before we do, Mr. Kovacic.

25 MR. KOVACIC: May I address the Court this

Page 10263

1 one sentence please?


3 MR. KOVACIC: You put me some questions after

4 my cross-examination of the witness. I would just like

5 to point out to the Prosecution's brief, the title is

6 "Prosecution's Overview of Witnesses," dated May 1999,

7 where the summaries for each witness are provided. You

8 remember that. On page 10, under number 129, there is

9 specification to which item of the indictment this

10 witness corresponds.

11 There is no -- this is not related to the

12 counts which are related to my client. So it is

13 even -- the Prosecutor, at least in this paper, does

14 not see the relation with that evidence to the

15 indictment.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That's a matter we

17 can deal with in due course.

18 Yes. Now, unless there's anything else, we'd

19 invite -- it may be easier if we rise for five

20 minutes. We'll rise for five minutes and the court can

21 be rearranged.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

23 at 12.46 p.m., to be reconvened on

24 Wednesday, the 24th day of November,

25 1999 at 9:30 a.m.

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