Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11048

1 Monday, 6th December, 1999

2 [Closed session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]









13 pages 11048-11109 redacted closed session













Page 11110

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2 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]


9 Q. Witness Z: that is what you are going to be

10 called throughout your testimony. Will you look at

11 this piece of paper, which bears a name, and just say

12 "yes" if the name is yours.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Your Honour, it may be satisfactory to deal

15 with paragraph 1 in this way.

16 Witness Z, have you summarised your career in

17 the British army, or have you had summarised for you

18 your career in the British army in the first three

19 paragraphs of a summary served in this case, which I

20 think you may have seen?

21 A. Yes, I have.

22 Q. In mid-December 1993, did you occupy a role

23 in one of the ECMM teams, and again you have identified

24 it in the summary. That team had areas of

25 responsibility, including Travnik, Vitez and Busovaca

Page 11111

1 and Zenica?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Head of the regional centre being Martin

4 Garrod, and the head of the coordination centre being

5 William Stutt?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Your Honour, I have been told which

8 paragraphs I may and which paragraphs I may not lead

9 on. And there follows a number of paragraphs where I

10 may not lead.

11 When you took up your position, Witness Z,

12 were you introduced to the principal personalities in

13 the Vitez pocket?

14 A. I was, yes, during the week of handover

15 between one monitor and myself.

16 Q. If I give some of the names, you can tell us

17 what you understood them to be. Colonel Blaskic?

18 A. That's correct. He was introduced as the HVO

19 commanding officer for the Vitez pocket and for middle

20 Bosnia.

21 Q. Nikica Petrovic?

22 A. Nikica Petrovic was introduced to me on

23 several occasions, but first introduced as the HVO

24 liaison officer to Commander Blaskic.

25 Q. I see you have a document before you. Are

Page 11112

1 you looking from notes or are you looking at the

2 summary that we have?

3 A. I am looking at the statement, the final

4 summary that was prepared.

5 Q. Unless there is any objection to the witness

6 having that. If there is, please let me know.

7 MR. SAYERS: With respect to this witness,

8 Your Honour, I do not believe that the witness, since

9 she speaks and understands English extremely well,

10 obviously, she doesn't need any kind of coaching

11 material in front of you. So I would prefer that she

12 did not.

13 JUDGE MAY: I think coaching material is

14 exaggerating it. I can't really see any objection to a

15 witness having a statement, when they are dealing with

16 events which happened six or seven years ago. This is

17 merely a summary of what she had.

18 As far as possible, if, Witness Z, you can

19 get on without it, do. But if you find that you can't

20 remember, then that seems proper for you to refer to

21 it.

22 A. All right, sir.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. Darko Gelic?

25 A. Darko Gelic was the liaison officer based in

Page 11113

1 the Hotel Vitez, and he was working alongside Nikica

2 Petrovic to Commander Blaskic in his absence.

3 Q. Mr. Santic?

4 A. Mr. Santic was the mayor of Vitez, who I met

5 once, twice.

6 Q. Before I turn to Dario Kordic, let's turn to

7 the BiH Army side. Memhet Alagic?

8 A. Yes, I met him on many occasions. He was the

9 second in command, I believe, initially, which was

10 called Corpus Brigada, which is 3rd Corps Brigade based

11 in Zenica. And then he took over as the commander of

12 7th Brigade in Travnik in April of '94.

13 Q. Enver Hadzihasanovic?

14 A. He was the 2 IC of 3rd Brigade and took over

15 as the leader eventually. I didn't meet him so many

16 times.

17 Q. Samir Safic?

18 A. Samir Safic was the exchange officer based in

19 Travnik, responsible for live and dead body swaps on

20 the Turbe-Travnik border and any negotiations with

21 Nikica Petrovic.

22 Q. Beba Salko?

23 A. Beba Salko was -- his role seems to change

24 from day to day. Basically, he was in charge of

25 removing Serbs from the Vitez pocket and also from

Page 11114

1 Zenica, through the Vitez pocket, and was in close

2 liaison with British battalions based in Vitez, again

3 involved in the movement of live bodies as opposed to

4 dead bodies.

5 Q. You will discover, Witness Z, that I leave a

6 pause between questions and answers in order to make

7 life possible and not difficult for the interpreters.

8 A. I understand.

9 Q. I am going to deal with the first part of --

10 sorry, paragraph 6. I now turn to Dario Kordic. How

11 was he introduced, and tell us a little bit about what

12 you first learnt of him.

13 A. I first met Dario Kordic in February, on the

14 16th of February, 1994. I was introduced to him

15 through a series of events. I had been trying to

16 facilitate the --

17 Q. No. It's my mistake.

18 A. Sorry.

19 Q. What were you told he was? What title were

20 you told was associated with him?

21 A. I was told through various sources that

22 Mr. Kordic was the head of the self-proclaimed party of

23 Herceg-Bosna based in Mostar, but was actually running

24 the Vitez pocket part of Herceg-Bosnia. I was told

25 that he was a politician.

Page 11115

1 Q. We'll come to your first meeting with him at

2 the appropriate stage on a logical narrative. But

3 you've given how he was described to you. Was he

4 spoken of in similar terms or in different terms by the

5 HVO liaison officers?

6 A. He was never referred to as such, as a

7 military commander, although it was mentioned from time

8 to time that he had a position within the HVO. But,

9 moreover, he was referred to as a political leader,

10 especially one for the Vitez pocket. As a political

11 leader.

12 Q. Please help us now with helicopter movements

13 in general. We'll come to helicopter movements in

14 particular cases later, but in general -- it's the

15 first half of paragraph 7 and paragraph 8. Tell us

16 about it, without referring to notes, if you can,

17 because it will make your testimony much more vital.

18 A. In general, I was aware, as were many other

19 airfield monitors, which of course I was one of to

20 start with, that there was sufficient helicopter

21 movement within the area of the Vitez pocket. There

22 was absolutely no way that someone could move by road

23 from Herceg-Bosnia area into Vitez. And the only

24 guaranteed safe movement was by night, and was by

25 helicopter movement. That was done by the HV and the

Page 11116

1 HVO.

2 Q. When, so far as you were concerned, were

3 these helicopter movements first taking place?

4 A. I was aware of them taking place on my

5 arrival to the mission in August of 1993, but I didn't

6 actually physically see any helicopter movements in the

7 Vitez pocket until March of '94. But I was aware of

8 them flying, because they were breaking the U.N. no-fly

9 zone at the time, for which I was responsible for

10 monitoring.

11 Q. What were your sources of information about

12 helicopter movements, and when you've dealt with that,

13 can you tell us what, if anything, you've discovered

14 about the use of particular figures in the area of

15 helicopters?

16 A. I was aware of helicopter movement because,

17 prior to moving to Zenica, to middle Bosnia, I spent

18 some time as an airfield monitor working with the U.N.,

19 a central nerve office, if you like, based in Zagreb.

20 At that point they showed me how easy it was for the

21 helicopters to move in and out of the base in Split,

22 near Split, called basa Divulje, from a JNA barracks to

23 middle Bosnia, because they are able to fly under their

24 radar zone, therefore avoiding detection.

25 Sorry, could you repeat the second part of

Page 11117

1 the question.

2 Q. Your sources of intelligence or information

3 about whether helicopters were being used, and by whom

4 they were being used, and then tell us by whom they

5 were being used.

6 A. Vitez pocket is a very small area, and

7 therefore those that were unable to move out of it had

8 to do so by either road or by air. As the road was

9 unaccessible -- only by the locals, rather. It was

10 only accessible by ECMM and the U.N. and the military

11 and a couple of non-government organisations. It was

12 common knowledge -- and when I say "common knowledge,"

13 I base my sources on my interpreter, other interpreters

14 that were working for ECMM, of which there are about 10

15 or 15, and I was basing my sources -- basing my

16 information on sources that were working in the Hotel

17 Vitez. And also I was being questioned constantly

18 about helicopter movement by the army of BiH and

19 General Alagic himself.

20 Q. Your common -- sorry. Wait for the

21 interpreter. And your common knowledge was to what

22 effect about the use of those helicopters?

23 A. I was aware, right from the start of my job,

24 that the helicopters were flying in and out of Bosnia

25 with or without guaranteed passage, as booked by them

Page 11118

1 through ourselves, ECMM, to the U.N., to allow them

2 safe passage. They were going with permission and

3 without permission. Of that that I know, because I was

4 the airfield monitor in Split. And on many occasions

5 I'd sit waiting for them to come back and they were

6 very late.

7 Then I would get reports that they had been

8 seen flying over middle Bosnia, doing things that they

9 hadn't booked to do. In other words, they were

10 dropping off parachuters and other bits of equipment.

11 So I knew that they were applying for these

12 medical evacuations to be known as Medivacs. And it

13 transpired at a later stage that these Medivacs were

14 actually allowing them to do other things under the

15 guise of a Medivac. I was always very suspicious of

16 what they were doing, but having moved into middle

17 Bosnia in December, or November of '93, it didn't take

18 very long to realise that they were actually using

19 their helicopters for other things, for troop

20 movements, and movement of staff in and out of the Nova

21 Bila hospital in the Vitez pocket.

22 Q. As to the particular personalities you've

23 already spoken of -- I am going to pause, because I've

24 broken my rule about the interpreters.

25 As to particular personalities you've spoken

Page 11119

1 of, was anything said about them and their use of

2 helicopters?

3 A. It was again common knowledge, and often

4 referred to in conversation, that Mr. Kordic was using

5 the helicopters, was being transported around in the

6 helicopters to meet other members of the Herceg-Bosnia

7 regime.

8 Q. Whose helicopters were they?

9 A. They belonged to both the HV, who were using

10 the helicopters from -- based in basa Divulje, where my

11 other team of airfield monitors are based, and also the

12 HVO, whose base was in Posusje, not far from Mostar.

13 Q. Did you ever speak to pilots of any of those

14 helicopters?

15 A. Yes. Before I came to Zenica, I spent a lot

16 of time with the pilots, because it was my daily work

17 to liaise with them. And I flew with them on a few

18 occasions, but not right into middle Bosnia, just to

19 the periphery. I never asked them who they were flying

20 exactly, because at that point I hadn't quite worked it

21 out. And by the time I realised what was going on,

22 they were down in Split and I was in Zenica. But I can

23 come on to an incident at a later time.

24 Q. Yes. I'll deal with paragraphs 10 to 15 in

25 their right chronological position, and turn to

Page 11120

1 paragraph 16.

2 Was there fighting in Santici, of which you

3 became aware in January 1994?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. I went on leave back to

5 the U.K. in December of '93. And when I came back, I

6 was aware that heavy fighting had broken out in the

7 Santici area, and actually, I was unable to make my way

8 back to Zenica on the day of my return from leave,

9 because the main supply route that went through Santici

10 was blocked because of fighting that had broken out and

11 had been led by the army of BiH, 3rd Brigade, and

12 Croats were trying to defend that area.

13 Q. Was there alleged Mujahedin involvement? Did

14 you verify it? And what happened to the fleeing

15 Croats?

16 A. I was aware of Mujahedin involvement within

17 the whole area. I had seen them myself. I had run

18 across them a few times. And during the fighting in

19 Santici, one of the interpreters, who was working in

20 Zenica, actually recognised one of the so-called

21 Mujahedin. He had been at school with him. He was

22 Muslim too.

23 They were the spearhead, so-called spearhead

24 of any BiH movement across middle Bosnia. They weren't

25 backed by General Alagic. He had no respect for them

Page 11121

1 and was quite keen for them to go. And when they

2 attacked Santici, the Croat families were forced to

3 flee to -- mostly to Zenica, to Father Stephan, who was

4 the leader of the Croat church in Zenica, who I've

5 since spoken to on a few occasions. I went to Zenica

6 to find out where the families were, to check to see

7 that they had food and clothing, and to do a head

8 count. And I was also aware of at least two members of

9 the Santici population that didn't manage to flee. I

10 was witness to their bodies, and they were my first war

11 crimes.

12 Q. We've used the word "Mujahedin," but perhaps

13 it would be helpful for you to give us your definition

14 or the way you use that word.

15 A. Before I came to the Vitez pocket, I had no

16 idea what a Mujahedin looked like or even what his

17 beliefs, if any, were. While I was in the Vitez

18 pocket, I took it upon myself to read the Koran; not a

19 riveting read, but it actually gives you an insight

20 into what they believe. And the whole concept of

21 Mujahedin in Bosnia, or be it anywhere else, is the war

22 of El Jahid, and when I came across Mujahedin dead

23 bodies, I realised that they had no regard for anybody

24 else's life, not even their own.

25 They waged a war of wanton destruction in the

Page 11122

1 area. They didn't care who they dealt with en route.

2 As I say, they had no regard for themselves. I know

3 that the Croats were absolutely terrified of them, and

4 so was I.

5 Q. So are you using the term to define where

6 somebody comes from or are you using the term to define

7 somebody according to what he has done?

8 A. I'm using the term "Mujahedin" because that's

9 how they were referred to by the army of BiH leader in

10 that area, Mehmet Alagic. He described them as such.

11 There were two brigades of Mujahedin, one

12 based in Travnik itself, which I believe, without

13 checking from my notes, is the 37th Brigade, which were

14 not so fundamentalist in their beliefs as 7th Mountain

15 Brigade, who were based behind Guca Gora monastery.

16 They were not locals. They were fairly

17 dark-skinned and looked like they had come from some

18 parts of Africa. They didn't speak the local language

19 very well, and they moved together and were protected

20 by various imams in and around the area. I knew them

21 to be Mujahedin only because of their distinguishing

22 features and because the Croats and the Muslims

23 referred to them as such.

24 Q. Thank you. We can turn to paragraph 17 to

25 20, which I'm told I can lead on, and therefore,

Page 11123

1 Witness Z, we can deal with this specifically or

2 comparatively swiftly.

3 On the 6th of January, 1994, did you visit a

4 mass grave in Dubravica which the HVO said was the

5 result of Bosnian Muslim atrocities, the claim being

6 that there were 27 bodies in the grave?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Restrictions of time and the fact that you

9 were in a fragile ceasefire and, therefore, a dangerous

10 place, meant that only eight bodies could be exhumed,

11 all male, all apparently of fighting age and clad in

12 military clothing, at least to the extent of one item

13 of clothing per body?

14 A. The bodies were in a state of decay; probably

15 about a month, not even that. They had been buried in

16 the garbage pit just outside of Poculica, which was a

17 typical dumping area for dead bodies.

18 We went with a British Battalion commander or

19 a section commander, and we were right in the middle of

20 the ceasefire between -- on BiH territory. It wasn't a

21 comfortable area to stay, but I can confirm that I

22 stood and watched at least eight bodies being dug up.

23 They had all been bagged and tagged with a number

24 beforehand by the British, and this was just us

25 checking to make sure that they were -- hadn't been

Page 11124

1 tortured, that they had just suffered gunshot wounds.

2 Q. And I think you found nothing on those

3 particular eight bodies to suggest that they had died

4 other than as war casualties, and therefore nothing to

5 confirm the HVO's allegations of BiH atrocities?

6 A. That's correct. With these bodies, I found

7 absolutely no reason to lead me to think that they had

8 been tortured, as alleged by the HVO.

9 Q. And following that exercise, did your ECMM

10 team set up a body exchange between the HVO and the

11 ABiH?

12 A. That's correct, we did, yes.

13 Q. And in mid-January '94, did General Alagic of

14 the ABiH call you to investigate information that he

15 had been given about five of his soldiers being

16 tortured in HVO trenches, as a result of which you

17 inspected five bodies shown by the HVO in a disused

18 school in Vitez with two other people, a Captain York

19 and Fred Schroeder, you then being told by Nikica

20 Petrovic of the HVO that the identity card would be

21 placed on the bodies concerned in order to identify the

22 victims, but you similarly found on this side that they

23 had gunshot wounds to the head, it being difficult to

24 identify faces, and you were dependent on Petrovic's

25 word that the identity cards and the bodies connected?

Page 11125

1 A. That's correct. I went on the Friday to go

2 and --

3 Q. If it's correct and it doesn't need

4 amplification, because I'm able to lead this evidence,

5 we can deal with this in that way.

6 A. That's correct, yes.

7 Q. If I miss something important, amplify.

8 Otherwise, for this and the next paragraph, just

9 acknowledge the accuracy.

10 It wasn't possible to get a pathologist, and

11 your colleagues concluded that the gunshot wounds were

12 not unusual in time of war and that there was no sign

13 of torture. This was explained to General Alagic, and

14 he then agreed to participate in a body exchange?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. That exchange was organised for the 1st of

17 February of '94?

18 A. That's correct, yes.

19 Q. You were told that the bodies produced by the

20 BiH had been tortured, as he suspected, and did you

21 view those bodies at the mosque in Poculica?

22 A. May I answer that?

23 Q. Yes, do.

24 A. General Alagic was claiming that the bodies

25 had actually been tortured, but when I had seen them

Page 11126

1 prior to the body swap, the bodies that I had been

2 shown were not tortured.

3 Three days later, on the 4th of February,

4 when I went to Poculica, to the mosque, I was shown

5 five very badly-tortured bodies. They weren't the ones

6 that I had been shown in the school. The reason I went

7 to Poculica is because that's where they came from.

8 They were being delivered back to the families.

9 Q. So by whom had you been misled?

10 A. Croats had misled me on this occasion.

11 Q. By producing to you bodies that showed no

12 torture, although on exchange it was discovered that

13 they were -- the ones produced on exchange were

14 tortured?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And, of course, you had only been in a

17 position to see eight of the alleged 27 bodies, if it

18 was 27 bodies in the mass grave?

19 A. There were 27 bodies in the mass grave,

20 because come the day of the body swap on the 1st of

21 February, I was able to see all of them lying on the

22 ground. But because we had the television cameras for

23 this from the BBC, and because it was an exceptionally

24 cold day, and because I was standing between the lines

25 of the army of BiH and the HVO, who had already shot at

Page 11127

1 me earlier, I wasn't really going to hang around. So

2 we did the body swap as quickly as possible. On

3 reflection, I think I made a mistake.

4 Q. Did you attempt to investigate these deaths

5 over the following weeks, but what was Petrovic's

6 attitude and what was Alagic's attitude?

7 A. I think it's relevant to say here that Alagic

8 tasked me to go and see these five bodies before the

9 swap because he had been notified from a family based

10 in Poculica that they had actually seen these five

11 bodies being paraded on Croatian television, which

12 because of the proximity and it was so close to

13 Poculica, people in Poculica were able to pick up the

14 TV up there, higher up in the valley, and they had

15 actually seen these chaps being paraded. So I spent

16 the next five weeks asking anybody that would talk to

17 me about the allegations. I even went to the Hotel

18 Vitez to see the TV producer who was working for Martin

19 Bell at the time to ask him for footage.

20 Q. Any success?

21 A. Nothing.

22 Q. And the ultimate attitude of Petrovic?

23 A. Petrovic said, "At least Alagic got his

24 bodies back." I knew at that point I was going to get

25 nowhere. I had spent five weeks, and I wasn't prepared

Page 11128

1 to waste any more time on it.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there are small

3 bundles of documentary exhibits which are in

4 chronological order. If they can be distributed now,

5 including one set to the witness.

6 The documents, may they please be under

7 seal? They needn't go on the ELMO for the usual

8 reasons. We'll be turning to them only briefly. If

9 the witness can have them herself.

10 Q. Paragraph 10. You did meet Kordic. Tell us

11 about the first meeting and when it happened.

12 A. I first met Mr. Kordic on the 16th of

13 February in what was described as his Daca in

14 Busovaca. I went there with my boss, Mr. William

15 Stutt, my interpreter, and I went to visit him because

16 I had been directed to go and visit him or have an

17 interview with him in regard to a case that I was

18 handling. I made an appointment, and I went.

19 Q. If we look at the documents that have been

20 placed before you, the first one, 1362,1, the second,

21 1364,2, and the third, 1375,1, deal with the matters

22 we've just covered about the dead bodies. But since

23 it's been possible to lead that information as

24 unchallenged, although the documents can be produced,

25 we needn't deal with them in detail?

Page 11129

1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. And so we come to your first meeting on the

3 16th of February of 1994, and that is the next exhibit,

4 1377, the second sheet of it and, indeed, the last

5 substantive paragraph. The topic of your meeting at

6 his Daca?

7 A. I wanted to meet Mr. Kordic because I was

8 trying to move the imam of Busovaca away from

9 Busovaca. I had been given him as a case, and I had

10 visited him on several occasions. He was hungry, his

11 family were being intimidated, and he was under

12 so-called house arrest. The imam was very frightened

13 and very concerned about members of his family who had

14 been intimidated, bullied, harassed, verbally abused.

15 He had had his mosque blown up.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. He wanted to leave the area. I asked

18 Mr. Kordic, when it was my turn to speak, if he would

19 grant me passage to remove the imam from Busovaca.

20 Q. A few questions. Deal with them all

21 compendiously but briefly.

22 When he received you, was he alone or with

23 others, what was his manner, and then tell us what he

24 said about the imam.

25 A. When I arrived at the so-called Daca in

Page 11130

1 Busovaca, I was met by six or seven men with short hair

2 and pale green uniforms on, pale green uniforms. They

3 had AK-47s and pistols on their body. They moved

4 myself and Mr. Stutt out of the vehicle in a hurried

5 manner and moved me inside, where I was introduced to

6 Mr. Kordic. His manner was rather menacing and that of

7 a bully, and I did feel intimidated.

8 Q. His response or attitude to the particular

9 problem of the imam when, as you said, it was your turn

10 to speak?

11 A. Very offhand and almost laughing at my

12 request, as if I had just asked the stupidest

13 question. He was not going to help me with my request,

14 and he went on to explain why not, which didn't make

15 much sense, and I was rather dismissed out of hand.

16 But I wasn't going to be put down, so I went at him

17 again. In the end, he said that he'd think about it

18 but that he was a pragmatist and that he didn't see why

19 he should honour my request.

20 Q. We see this meeting summarised in the second

21 sheet of 1377 under the paragraph beginning: "During a

22 visit to Dario Kordic ..." We turn on from that

23 meeting.

24 The next document, 1378,1, which reflects the

25 same meeting, is that right, at Item 4(VI), or is this

Page 11131

1 another meeting on the following day?

2 A. No. 1378,1 refers to me going to see the

3 imam the following day to give him the results of my

4 meeting with Mr. Kordic, because I promised the imam

5 that I would go and see Mr. Kordic on his behalf.

6 Q. So the impasse remained. The imam reiterated

7 his request?

8 A. I apologised to the imam and told him that I

9 wasn't here to move him and his family. And he was

10 very sad about that, but I told him to hang on because

11 I hadn't given up at that point and that I was going to

12 see Mr. Kordic again as soon as he was back in the

13 pocket and as soon as I had the time to go and see

14 him. In fact --

15 Q. The next document is 1381,1 for the 19th of

16 February, and it says simply that, under 4(VI), you

17 arranged a meeting with Dario Kordic for Monday, the

18 21st of February?

19 A. That's correct, we did.

20 Q. Where was he at the time; did you know?

21 A. No. I was just told by the liaison officers

22 in the Hotel Vitez that Mr. Kordic was not currently in

23 the pocket.

24 Q. And by "pocket," does that refer to the

25 overall pocket surrounded as it might have been or to

Page 11132

1 some other more local area?

2 A. No, sorry. The Vitez area of Busovaca-Vitez

3 itself and the area towards Travnik, which was

4 surrounded, as you quite rightly say, was known in

5 those days as the Vitez pocket.

6 Q. So that "out of pocket" meant that he had

7 been able to travel, by some means, elsewhere?

8 A. That's correct, yes.

9 Q. 1386,1 is the next document, and I think you

10 can help us here with something about helicopters in

11 some detail, but also you can deal perhaps with the

12 visit to Mr. Kordic on the 21st of February.

13 The 21st of February, do you have a note of

14 that meeting or not?

15 A. I don't, no. I seem to have lost my notes,

16 the 21st of February. But I have recorded it on -- I

17 make reference to it on the 23rd of February, which is

18 one of the exhibits.

19 Q. And putting things in order, did you visit

20 him on the 21st of February, as we can see from the

21 next following document, 1386,2, I think?

22 A. I did, yes.

23 Q. And what had his attitude been on the 21st?

24 A. When I visited him on the 16th, as I said,

25 his mood was fairly menacing and fairly aggressive

Page 11133

1 towards me. When I visited him again on the 21st, he

2 was almost in a carnival mood. He was fairly joyous

3 and fairly buoyant. I didn't quite know what was going

4 on, but I was quite pleased to see a change in his

5 manner. But he still didn't answer the question about

6 the imam.

7 Q. And at that stage, were you able to work out

8 why there was this apparent change?

9 A. I had no idea.

10 Q. In due course, you were able to put a reason

11 to it, and we'll come to that in its sequence.

12 But as you helpfully remind me, it's on your

13 report of the 23rd of February, under, "2. Political

14 Situation," that you hark back to Monday's meeting with

15 Kordic and ECMM and UNPROFOR; is that right?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. Well, then let's, having dealt with that

18 meeting, come back to Document 1386,1 and to something

19 that happened, I think, on the 22nd of February

20 concerning a helicopter.

21 A. Would you like me to expand?

22 Q. Yes, please.

23 A. Okay. Part of my monitoring duties in the

24 Vitez pocket was to visit both Croats and Muslims,

25 which I tried to do with a great deal of impartiality.

Page 11134

1 One of my areas was the Nova Bila church in the area of

2 Nova Bila. The church had been turned into a field

3 hospital, because Croats had no chance to use the

4 facilities of a hospital in Vitez pocket. Both

5 hospitals were outside. One was in Travnik and one was

6 in Zenica. So they had to make do with what they could

7 get. And they turned the church into a field hospital

8 in Nova Bila.

9 Because they were surrounded and because they

10 were constantly under fire from snipers who were

11 Muslims and Serbs from higher areas, the casualties in

12 the Nova Bila field hospital were beyond my belief. A

13 lot of the casualties were not always there, when I

14 came back for a second visit. At first I had assumed

15 that they had died. But when I got to know the priest

16 that was running the Nova Bila hospital, a Franciscan

17 priest, he told me they were actually being rotated

18 out.

19 When I asked him to expand about "rotating

20 out," he said that helicopters would come in the night

21 and pick up the casualties if they could pay to leave.

22 Well, around about the 20th of February I was

23 aware that my airfield monitors based in Split had been

24 approached by a nurse from England called Sally Baker.

25 It was her proposal to bully her way into Nova Bila to

Page 11135

1 take out injured children from the Nova Bila hospital.

2 But she was unable to get to them by road, because the

3 fighting was so intense, and it was totally out of the

4 question.

5 I since found out, after my airfield monitors

6 tipped me off, so to speak, that Sally Baker had

7 actually flown in with the help of an MI8, which is a

8 Russian-built helicopter, into the quarry at Vitez, a

9 well-known landing site for these helicopters, and had

10 achieved her aim of rescuing these children and had

11 flown out again.

12 And as a result of her arrival in the pocket,

13 senior Croatian doctors had also arrived at the Nova

14 Bila hospital. And I saw them. And I noticed that

15 some of those children had in fact gone, and that some

16 of the soldiers had in fact gone too.

17 So I was aware of the fact that there was

18 helicopter movement, and it was confirmed initially by

19 this incident.

20 That's it.

21 Q. And were you aware of how Kordic had -- if he

22 had been out of the pocket -- returned at about this

23 time or not?

24 A. I didn't physically see him return, or even

25 depart. But the mere fact that these helicopters were

Page 11136

1 operational, and the very fact that we couldn't use any

2 of the roads for these known players, if you want to

3 refer to them as such, there was actually only one way

4 in and one way out. And, as I said, it was common

5 knowledge by the locals, those that lived in the Vitez

6 pocket, that the helicopter was the one, almost

7 reliable, route in and out.

8 Q. Next document, please, 1387,1, which is dated

9 the 28th of February. The second sheet under

10 "humanitarian activity" records your team's visit to

11 the chief imam of Zenica. And comparative success

12 there required a visit to be agreed with and then

13 arrangements to be agreed by Kordic. Is that correct?

14 A. That's correct. Mr. Kordic, I felt, in my

15 first meeting, was only going to allow me to move the

16 imam of Busovaca out, if he thought that he was going

17 to let it happen, and if I had something to bargain

18 with. So my bargaining tool was Father Stephan from

19 Zenica, a Croat priest who I was going to bring in to

20 the Vitez pocket so that he could visit his people on

21 the ground on the Vitez pocket. And I would pull the

22 imam of Busovaca from Vitez pocket to Zenica.

23 Q. Your next meeting with Kordic was when?

24 A. Mid-March sometime. But it wasn't my

25 meeting; I was just taking the notes at that meeting.

Page 11137

1 Q. Tell us about it, in any event, even if you

2 have to do so from -- substantially from memory.

3 A. We've moved on a bit now from February and

4 the Federation has been signed, and the mood within the

5 pocket and the army BiH has changed somewhat, but it

6 seems that it's meeting with resistance from Mr. Kordic

7 and from Mr. Alagic. And I went along to a meeting in

8 Busovaca with my boss, with Martin Garrod, HCC of

9 Zenica, ECMM, and Mr. Nick Turnbull, who I took over

10 from back at the beginning of December.

11 We tried to start talks with Mr. Kordic about

12 the HVO involvement and demilitarisation within the

13 Lasva Valley, and tried to bring in the BiH from

14 Zenica, Travnik.

15 Mr. Kordic didn't really want to get involved

16 in any of these talks, and it was quite apparent that

17 he was pulling the strings in the Vitez pocket.

18 Everything had to go through him.

19 And at that time, and I've written this down

20 because I was taking the notes of this meeting,

21 Mr. Kordic said that at this time the process for

22 discussion had not yet arrived. That was that. End of

23 discussion.

24 Q. Now, you met him on this occasion. With whom

25 on his side was he in company?

Page 11138

1 A. He had no political accomplices at that

2 point. He was on his own. He had a plethora of men of

3 military status? I described them as short-haired,

4 fairly burly individuals, bristling with ammunition and

5 rifles, and obviously acting as bodyguards, because

6 they moved very close to Mr. Kordic whenever he stepped

7 out of his room.

8 Q. In these discussions with comparatively

9 senior or very senior people on your side, did he have

10 to refer to anybody else before making decisions? Did

11 he have to pick up the telephone or anything like

12 that?

13 A. No. The telephone links were rather sporadic

14 at that time. We were actually in the Vitez pocket,

15 rather cut off from the rest of middle Bosnia. But he

16 did say that he wasn't prepared to make any high-level

17 decisions without first discussing the questions with

18 people of higher authority. And he never actually

19 named anybody of higher authority, but he made

20 reference to them in general.

21 Q. And how did these attempted negotiations

22 conclude?

23 A. Are you referring, sorry, to the ones in

24 mid-March?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 11139

1 A. They were non-conclusive.

2 Q. This meeting in mid-March, by what title, if

3 any, did Kordic introduce himself, or identify

4 himself?

5 A. Self-proclaimed politician of Herceg-Bosnia

6 for the Vitez pocket, and Colonel of the HVO.

7 Q. Was this the first time he'd called himself a

8 Colonel in the HVO, or had it happened earlier, or

9 can't you remember?

10 A. It's the first time that he referred to

11 himself as a HVO Colonel. But I had heard him referred

12 to as such by other people in and around the pocket

13 that I had met in the course of my work.

14 Q. Was that your last meeting with Kordic, or

15 were there later ones?

16 A. That was it.

17 Q. For completeness, it's right that you saw

18 Blaskic on various occasions?

19 A. That's correct. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Starting when and finishing when?

21 A. The first time I saw Commander Blaskic was on

22 the television on the 3rd of January. And he was

23 standing in front of the ammunition depot in Vitez

24 pocket. And then I had two meetings with him at a

25 later stage, January, February time.

Page 11140

1 Q. We'll deal with the television programme

2 first. What was the content of what he was saying

3 then?

4 A. As you rightly pointed out a while ago, Vitez

5 pocket was surrounded by troops of the army BiH, and

6 Commander Blaskic, although he was the commander of

7 middle Bosnia, he had wired the ammunition factory in

8 Vitez with explosives. And he went on the television

9 to provoke General Alagic, it would seem, and he

10 threatened the Muslims at the time that if they tried

11 to capture the Vitez pocket, he would blow up the

12 ammunition dump. And he showed various monitors the

13 ammunition dump and the wires and the explosive

14 devices, the TNT that he described, although I never

15 saw it; it was passed onto me. But I actually saw him

16 on the television, the 3rd of January, standing in

17 front of the ammunition dump. He was very tired.

18 Q. And I think you spoke to Ivica Saric, former

19 President of Travnik and the HVO President of the

20 Exchange Commission, about this, or at least he

21 commented on this, to the effect that fatigue was

22 playing a part?

23 A. Mr. Ivica Saric, former President of Travnik,

24 displaced government of Travnik, shall we say, or

25 displaced President of Travnik, was then hiding out in

Page 11141

1 the -- well, not hiding out, but for his own safety

2 living in the Hotel Vitez, or close to the Hotel

3 Vitez. He was a very well-educated man, in my

4 assumption. And he described Commander Blaskic as

5 tired, exhausted. And the very fact that he had been

6 on the television -- he described his showing on the

7 television as irrational behaviour, due to his

8 exhaustion, and trying to look after his people in the

9 Vitez pocket.

10 Q. On the two subsequent occasions that you saw

11 Blaskic, what was he wearing by way of uniform and rank

12 insignia, and what did he tell you, if anything, about

13 rank insignia?

14 A. On both occasions, Commander Blaskic was

15 wearing what we in the army would describe as DPM

16 clothing. That's disruptive pattern material,

17 tree-suit material, green and brown. On his right arm

18 he had a patch with HVO on it, which is Croatian army,

19 and he had no badges of rank. They are normally now

20 above the pockets, but he had nothing.

21 And I asked him what rank he was. He said

22 that it was too early for ranks, and that the Croatian

23 army didn't have any ranks that were yet decided or

24 given out. That would come at a later date.

25 Q. How, overall, did Kordic's attitude appear to

Page 11142

1 you, contrasted, if it's appropriate, with Blaskic's?

2 A. Compared to Blaskic, his manner was pushy,

3 unprofessional, menacing, intimidating, and that of a

4 bully.

5 Q. Blaskic?

6 A. Professional, honest, when asked direct

7 questions, keen to make sure that we didn't, as an ECMM

8 team, take ourselves into any positions of danger. He

9 was always looking out for our safety. And for that I

10 was very grateful.

11 Q. Last two documents and two more questions,

12 please. 1393,1. Now, you've told us about a Medivac

13 or about Medivac helicopter problems. But this is now

14 on the 11th of March. Just explain this, please.

15 A. As I said earlier, the only field hospital

16 that we had in Nova Bila had a series of very sick

17 patients, be they young or old. At this point, on

18 around the 9th of March, I was contacted by the

19 airfield monitors in Split and told to prepare for an

20 arrival of MI8's from basa Divulje to the hospital in

21 Nova Bila. So I got myself into position that day, the

22 11th of March --

23 Q. That's coming from the state of Croatia?

24 A. Coming from the state of Croatia to the

25 Republic of Bosnia. To my area, yes.

Page 11143

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. At the time that the helicopters were due to

3 arrive, I noticed them flying towards the hospital, but

4 I noticed that they were dropping too quickly and that

5 they actually weren't going to land where I was

6 situated in my vehicle. I had no idea where they were

7 going to land. So I followed the tail and found that

8 they had actually landed in a school yard about one

9 kilometre from where I was waiting in my vehicle.

10 I got on the radio and I contacted the

11 BritBat G5 officer, Captain York, who I had worked with

12 on many occasions. And I asked him to get to the grid

13 reference I quoted to him, because I suspected that

14 something was about to go amiss.

15 Within a very short period of time, Captain

16 York arrived in his Land Rover, with the aid of one

17 Warrior tank, APC, whatever you want to call it. And I

18 noticed, because we had arrived in time to see the

19 helicopter landing, and we noticed that coming out of

20 the back of the MI8 were approximately 20 soldiers in

21 new uniforms, carrying weapons, carrying bags, carrying

22 boxes. The boxes -- some of the boxes were leaking

23 oil. And from my military experience, I can only tell

24 you that when boxes leak oil, there is something inside

25 there, like explosives. Inside their bags, although we

Page 11144

1 couldn't see them, we could hear ammunition chinking.

2 And the soldiers were being greeted, by those who had

3 gathered quickly, as a hero's welcome.

4 I asked my interpreter to listen to what was

5 being said. She said that these guys had apparently

6 come from Gornji Vakuf, which was south from us.

7 So I asked Captain York if he could get some

8 more Warriors, and that we were going to surround the

9 helicopter so that it couldn't fly off.

10 Q. Is that what happened?

11 A. Within a short period, two more Warriors came

12 and trained their cannon on their -- on the MI8s. And

13 then I recognised one of the pilots and I put him in my

14 truck and took him to BritBat, because he wouldn't get

15 in the BritBat truck. And I took him to the ops room

16 in BritBat to meet the Colonel of BritBat, and also

17 Commander Filipovic was there as well.

18 This was the first time that I'd actually

19 witnessed the MI8 landing in the Vitez pocket. This

20 was now after the war and it was during the daylight

21 hours, and it seemed to me as if they had become quite

22 complacent. And they were doing this, knowing full

23 well that I was going to be around.

24 Q. So the flight from Croatia, cleared for

25 Medivac purposes, apparently abused?

Page 11145

1 A. That's correct. The airfield monitors in

2 Split had actually cleared the helicopter, as was the

3 procedure, before it took off. By the time it arrived

4 at Nova Bila, it was no longer empty. It was full of

5 troops. And the troops had been picked up en route.

6 We can't say exactly where, but we suspect that they

7 were picked up from Poculica. Or not Poculica; from

8 Posusje, I beg your pardon, which was the Croatian

9 helicopter base in southern part of Bosnia.

10 Q. So that would again be coming from Croatia?

11 A. Yes. It left Croatia empty. By the time it

12 arrived with me it was full.

13 Q. This is dealt with in document 1393,1, where

14 the query is raised. At number 2, are you able to

15 confirm whether troops or passengers exited from the

16 helicopter when it landed? And your report can be

17 found at 1393,2. We notice at the foot of the first

18 page, at the end of paragraph 1, that the Croatian

19 television had recorded Mr. Kordic being back in

20 Busovaca at that time, but then under 2, operational

21 military matters, and over the page, the account of

22 this helicopter incident, which you dealt with, is

23 there set out.

24 A. That's correct. Yes. You want me to

25 expand?

Page 11146

1 Q. I think you've covered everything that there

2 is there. So far as you know, the soldiers were sent

3 back, except that 19 went back and not 18?

4 A. Actually, the 19 that I refer to there were

5 actually --

6 Q. I am so sorry. Nineteen patients?

7 A. Nineteen patients. I actually loaded 19 and

8 not 18, because there was one more that I took pity on,

9 and there was this space left in the seekings that came

10 to pick up Croat people.

11 Q. So the Medivac mission was completed with

12 seeking helicopters and, so far as you know, the other

13 helicopter did go back and, presumably, went back with

14 the soldiers?

15 A. Shall I expand?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Yes, the helicopter that was grounded by

18 force, shall I say, from the Warriors, was actually

19 held on the ground. And Commander Filipovic insisted

20 that all the soldiers that had actually got out from

21 the helicopter be rounded up and taken back to where

22 they came from. Now, this did happen, although I have

23 no report to show it.

24 They were picked up, and around about 6.00

25 that evening they were flown back. I had to be back in

Page 11147

1 there each night at 5.00 to start my report and to meet

2 the curfew time. But they did get flown back. But, as

3 it happens, they didn't arrive in Split; they were

4 dropped off in Posusje, where another 19 or 20 of them

5 were loaded. And they were older guys. They weren't

6 the same ones that were pulled out of the Vitez

7 pocket.

8 So when they arrived back in Split, where

9 everybody was waiting for them, they weren't the ones

10 that jumped out of the helicopter earlier that -- the

11 day before. In other words, the game playing had still

12 continued, even though they had been exposed.

13 MR. NICE: If I can deal with paragraphs 22

14 and 23 before the adjournment, then I would have

15 concluded the witness's evidence.

16 JUDGE MAY: How long is it going to take?

17 MR. NICE: Not very long, I don't think.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. Paragraph 22, your translator who is named,

21 but don't name her, did she tell you about an attack on

22 her village of Dusina in January of 1993? Just "Yes"

23 or "No."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And she gave an account of what happened to

Page 11148

1 her and her brothers, which you summarised in the

2 summary?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Were you interviewed by someone named in

5 paragraph 23 of your summary about the abduction of

6 that person's husband?

7 A. I was approached by her. I wasn't

8 interviewed by her, but, yes --

9 Q. You interviewed her?

10 A. I interviewed her, yes.

11 Q. How many times?

12 A. On many occasions. That was the first one in

13 January.

14 Q. And this was in relation to the Mujahedin?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 MR. NICE: Again, I'm not going to take that

17 further. I think that's all I want from this witness.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.

19 Witness Z, would you be back, please, at half

20 past 2.00.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Sir.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.




Page 11149

1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon,

5 Witness Z. My name is Steven Sayers. I am one of the

6 attorneys representing Dario Kordic. We'll try to get

7 through with your questions so that you can leave

8 today.

9 Ma'am, you gave a statement on February 11th

10 and 12 of 1997 to Mr. Carry Spork, one of the

11 Prosecution's investigators; correct?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. That consists of 13 pages, single spaced, and

14 it is pretty detailed, chronologically. Did you

15 consult any personal notes, any journals or

16 contemporaneous diary that you kept before preparing

17 that statement and giving it to the Prosecution's

18 investigators?

19 A. For certain aspects of it, yes.

20 Q. Do you have any contemporaneous notes made of

21 the three conversations that you've related to the

22 Trial Chamber concerning Mr. Kordic?

23 A. The only notes that I have concerning

24 Mr. Kordic are the ones that I wrote when I came back

25 from my day out in the Vitez pocket, which was done on

Page 11150

1 a daily basis around about half past 4.00, 5.00 each

2 night. So I am referring to those notes.

3 Q. You are referring to the notes which were

4 subsequently typed up, and which were marked as

5 exhibits and shown to you today, I take it?

6 A. The notes that I have given as exhibits were

7 actually written by myself at the time in 1994. Yes,

8 they would have been done by me.

9 Q. So would it be fair to say, ma'am, that those

10 notes, or the entries in the exhibits that we've seen

11 today, represent the sum total of the material that

12 you've actually written yourself about each of those

13 three meetings?

14 A. That's correct, yes.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, the statement

16 that you gave to Mr. Spork two and a half years ago,

17 was that given in your words or were someone else's

18 words used?

19 A. They were given by me, at my private

20 accommodation, and taken down over the space of about

21 three days.

22 Q. It would be fair to say, I take it, that you

23 signed that statement as an accurate representation of

24 what you had personally told the investigator?

25 A. That's correct, yes.

Page 11151

1 Q. I noticed, ma'am, that you have some facility

2 with the pronunciation of Croatian names. Do you

3 actually speak the Croatian language?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Did you have that ability when

6 you were performing your functions as an ECMM monitor

7 between December of 1993 and July of 1994, was it?

8 A. When I first got to Croatia, I couldn't speak

9 a word of language. I've learnt it since I have been

10 there.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. I'm not fluent, but I am working on it.

13 Q. The fact is, though, that at the end of 1993,

14 and in early 1994, you actually needed the services of

15 an interpreter to be able to converse with people on

16 the ground; correct?

17 A. Yes, absolutely.

18 Q. Just a few background questions, ma'am, to

19 make sure I've got the chronological facts straight. I

20 understand that your first mission to the former

21 Yugoslavia was from August to November, and that you

22 spent that time actually in the Republic of Croatia; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Actually, my first mission was for a year,

25 but I spent the first part of my mission as an airfield

Page 11152

1 monitor based in Croatia, yes, that's correct, from

2 August until November.

3 Q. You came to Zenica for the first time on

4 November the 5th of 1993, right?

5 A. That's correct, yes.

6 Q. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 A. That's right. I had actually taken a growing

23 interest in what was going on in the area, and because

24 -- I suppose because of my interests and because of my

25 background, I was asked if I would like to take over

Page 11153

1 the team working in Vitez. But it was pointed out to

2 me that I would be the only female around and that it

3 was actually a fairly difficult area in which to work.

4 And I was asked whether I would like to take over the

5 job, to which I said yes.

6 Q. You were asked some questions right at the

7 end of your direct examination about the events at

8 Dusina in January of 1993. I would just like to ask

9 you a few questions in that regard.

10 But I think, Mr. President, we may have to go

11 into private session to do so, with the Trial Chamber's

12 permission.

13 JUDGE MAY: You are asking to do that?

14 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11154













13 page 11154 redacted private session













Page 11155













13 page 11155 redacted private session













Page 11156













13 page 11156 redacted private session













Page 11157













13 page 11157 redacted private session













Page 11158













13 page 11158 redacted private session













Page 11159

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much, ma'am.

18 Just a couple of very general questions regarding the

19 HVO chain of command.

20 Q. You understood that the general staff of the

21 HVO, the military forces, was located in Mostar;

22 correct?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. And you also understood that the supreme

25 commander of the armed forces was actually the

Page 11160

1 president of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, a

2 man by the name of Mate Boban; correct?

3 A. That's correct, yes, but I also understood

4 that his supreme commander was President of Croatia.

5 Q. Did he ever tell you that?

6 A. Did who ever tell me that?

7 Q. Mr. Boban?

8 A. I never met Mr. Boban. No.

9 Q. And when you were present in Central Bosnia,

10 ma'am, do you know who the chief of the general staff

11 of the HVO was, who the military commander was?

12 A. I was told and introduced to Commander

13 Blaskic as such, yes.

14 Q. Let me suggest to you, ma'am, that Commander

15 Blaskic was the commander of the Central Bosnia

16 Operative Zone, or the 3rd Operative Zone at that time,

17 and that he reported to a superior officer who, while

18 you were present in Central Bosnia, was General Ante

19 Rosso. Does that name mean anything to you at all?

20 A. Rosso, yes.

21 Q. All right. And on the subject of Commander

22 Blaskic, you had no doubt that he was, in fact, the

23 commander of all of the HVO military forces within his

24 area of responsibility; correct?

25 A. That's correct, yes.

Page 11161

1 Q. And when issues such as the unfortunate issue

2 of body exchanges or exchanges of wounded arose, you

3 naturally contacted the military authorities to arrange

4 that; correct?

5 A. Actually, it was pretty much the other way

6 around. They always had firsthand knowledge of when it

7 was right to go ahead with those things, and I was to

8 report to them on a daily basis, which I did sort of in

9 the course of my work, and they would update me. I

10 used to go to the Hotel Vitez every day to go and talk

11 with them.

12 Q. All right. You gave some testimony, ma'am,

13 regarding what Colonel Blaskic told you in connection

14 with the HVO rank system, if you like?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I would just like to show you a document and

17 ask you whether you ever had the opportunity to see

18 this at any time or hear about it while you were on

19 your tour of duty.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

21 D140/1.


23 Q. This document was published in something

24 known as the Narodni List of HZ Herceg-Bosna. Had you

25 ever heard of that gazette before?

Page 11162

1 A. I understand it's a people's list of

2 Herceg-Bosna. No, I've never seen this document

3 before. It's the first time I see it today. I see

4 it's signed by Mate Boban.

5 Q. Right, on July the 3rd of 1992. But if

6 you've never seen it before, ma'am, there appears to be

7 little point in asking you any questions on it, so

8 let's move on.

9 Did you ever have the opportunity to meet a

10 gentleman by the name of Dr. Jadranko Prlic?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Did you know that Dr. Prlic was actually the

13 President of the HVO before the Croatian Republic of

14 Herceg-Bosna was formed?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity, ma'am, to

17 speak to any of the three vice-presidents of the HVO:

18 Mr. Stipo Ivankovic, Mr. Kresimir Zubak or Mr. Anto

19 Valenta?

20 A. I know the names. I have never met the

21 gentlemen in question, no. I know that Mr. Zubak is a

22 political figure in Croatia, because I saw posters of

23 him two years ago, during the elections.

24 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Zubak had actually

25 signed the Washington Agreement that terminated

Page 11163

1 hostilities on March the 1st of 1994, and he signed in

2 his capacity as representative of the Croat people?

3 A. Yes, I know that.

4 Q. All right. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, obviously?

5 A. Yes, end of February, 1994. Around about the

6 25th of February. Around about that time.

7 Q. I can make this an exhibit or not, as the

8 case may be.

9 Let me just represent to you that according

10 to a letter dated March the 3rd of 1994, from the

11 permanent representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

12 Croatia to the United Nations and to the

13 Secretary-General, there is a reference to two

14 documents signed in Washington on the 1st of March

15 1994, which are known as the Washington Agreements.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Signed by Mr. Haris Silajdzic, the Prime

18 Minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Granic.

21 A. Mr. Granic.

22 Q. And Mr. Kresimir Zubak, head of the Bosnian

23 Croat delegation. Does that refresh your memory as to

24 the precise date?

25 A. It does, because the ceasefire was called for

Page 11164

1 12.00 on the 25th of February, so that was the natural

2 conclusion that followed on, yes.

3 Q. Okay. Did you follow the genesis of this

4 so-called Stoltenberg Owen plan at all, ma'am, or not?

5 A. I didn't understand it, to be perfectly

6 honest. I understood what they were attempting to do,

7 but I think it was -- my own opinion -- premature and

8 incredibly optimistic. And it only took two sides into

9 account. It totally ruled out the third element. So

10 it was a non-starter, as far as we could see.

11 Q. Was that a view that was --

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

13 Mr. Sayers, could the witness tell us more precisely

14 what she was referring to, the two first elements and

15 the third element?

16 A. I understand the question.

17 MR. SAYERS: I think, Your Honour --

18 A. The third element being the Serb element.

19 I'm sorry.

20 MR. SAYERS: The Republika Srpska.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And the

22 first two elements, therefore, are the Croats and the

23 Muslims? Is that what you mean?

24 A. Sorry. I didn't get all of that.

25 MR. SAYERS: Let me try to clear this up.

Page 11165

1 With the permission of the Trial Chamber, I do not

2 believe that a copy of the Stoltenberg Owen plan has

3 ever been made an exhibit, and it might be helpful just

4 to ask a few questions of that by way of background to

5 clarify for everybody what the proposal was.

6 This is a relatively substantial document,

7 Your Honour. But I would only wish to point out three

8 separate paragraphs in it. And I think that you can

9 see what the International Community was attempting to

10 achieve. Thanks.

11 If we could have this marked as the next

12 Defence Exhibit.


14 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

15 Q. There is no need to go through this fairly

16 weighty document in any detail, ma'am. I would just

17 like to point out to you certain salient features. If

18 you just turn to page 5 of the document, paragraph 19.

19 There is a reference here to the fact that,

20 after intensive discussions of a number of drafts, all

21 three parties agreed, on the 30th of July, 1993, to a

22 constitutional agreement for a Union of Republics of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and to that Union forming part

24 of an overall peace settlement.

25 The next page, the paragraph I would like to

Page 11166

1 draw your attention to, is on the next page, paragraph

2 24, where all three sides agree that the name of each

3 constituent republic would be determined by the

4 competent authorities of that republic.

5 Was that your understanding of one facet of

6 the agreement, ma'am, or does that not ring even a

7 faintly familiar bell?

8 A. It rings bells, but what's written here on

9 paper wasn't actually what was being thought out at the

10 time. And I say that purely because the only two sides

11 that you could get to talk to were indeed the army BiH

12 and the HVO. There was no -- for us, as ECMM monitors,

13 there was no even -- no thought of talking with the

14 third side. And, in fact, they didn't even sign the

15 agreement, so ...

16 Q. And, in fact, even though that dialogue was

17 going on, it was not eased by the fact that there was a

18 major, widespread offensive being mounted by the ABiH

19 in the summer of 1993 against HVO forces. And, if you

20 want to, take a look at paragraph 37 on page 9. A

21 reference is made to that.

22 Did you have any personal knowledge or

23 knowledge from your colleagues at the ECMM regarding

24 that ABiH offensive in the summer of 1993?

25 A. I wasn't there in 1993, in the summer, I'm

Page 11167

1 afraid. I can't comment.

2 Q. My final question. If you just turn to page

3 13, appendix 1, which articulates the constitutional

4 agreement of the Union of Republics of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina. There were to be three constituent

6 republics which encompass the three constituent

7 peoples: Muslims, Serbs and Croats.

8 Is that a fair synopsis of what the

9 Stoltenberg Owen Plan was intended to achieve, in your

10 recollection?

11 A. On paper, yes. In reality, not a chance. As

12 I say, it was a bit optimistic, a bit too -- it's a

13 good idea, but it was ahead of its time.

14 Unfortunately, it didn't work.

15 Q. Ma'am, there is no question, though, that the

16 Croats accepted this plan and agreed to abide by it;

17 correct?

18 A. The Stoltenberg agreement?

19 Q. Stoltenberg agreement.

20 A. I couldn't say for sure exactly what they had

21 in their mind, but it would probably ring true, because

22 at a later stage they signed up to the Federation, in

23 March '94.

24 Q. And shortly after this agreement was signed

25 or approved by the Croat side, do you recall that the

Page 11168

1 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was actually founded

2 in Mostar on the 28th of August, 1993?

3 A. Well, I have a document, not with me, but it

4 was signed by Mate Boban on the 5th of August, 1992,

5 where he declares himself as the President of the

6 Republic of Herceg-Bosna. So we missed a year here.

7 Q. Let me show you one other document, ma'am.

8 It may or may not help refresh your memory as to this

9 topic. But it's actually the founding document of the

10 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna. I believe I may

11 have misspoken somewhat, ma'am, when I said the

12 republic was founded in Mostar. It was actually

13 founded in Grude on that day.

14 Could you just turn to the second page,

15 ma'am. You can see that this document was signed by

16 the President of the House of Representatives, Perica

17 Jukic. Did you ever meet that gentleman?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. Does his name ring a familiar bell?

20 A. No, I know nothing about the man.

21 Q. Very well. Now, did you realise, ma'am, that

22 the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna ceased to exist

23 once the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was founded?

24 A. Sorry, will you repeat the question?

25 Q. Did you realise that the Croatian community,

Page 11169

1 an entity known as the Croatian community of

2 Herceg-Bosna, the so-called HZHB, ceased to exist once

3 the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna was --

4 A. Yes, I did. Sorry.

5 Q. Okay. Just a few questions, ma'am, if I may,

6 regarding Mr. Kordic. In your statement two and a half

7 years ago, you made the observation that the precise

8 nature of Mr. Kordic's position in this republic was

9 uncertain after the political exit of Mr. Mate Boban.

10 You made that observation on page 8. Would it be fair

11 to say that there was a considerable degree of

12 uncertainty within the ECMM regarding the nature of

13 Mr. Kordic's offices, if any, in the Croatian Republic

14 of Herceg-Bosna?

15 A. It would be fair to say so, yes. It would

16 also be fair to say that you couldn't get a straight

17 answer, so you were left to try and find out the

18 answers any way you could. These were not particularly

19 clear times, as I'm sure you realise.

20 Q. The ECMM, though, actually had available to

21 it the decrees of the Croatian community of

22 Herceg-Bosna, such as those which appointed members of

23 the government; did it not?

24 A. The HCC would have had access to this,

25 because he attended high-level meetings. They would

Page 11170

1 have been passed down, but, to be perfectly honest, I

2 never saw them. I was going on verbal instructions.

3 And my job was to go out there and confirm what was

4 either being passed around as a rumour or that that was

5 written down. I was gathering information.

6 Q. So even though the documents that articulated

7 the appointments of members of the government were

8 available to the head of a regional centre, the HRC,

9 the position is that you yourself never actually saw

10 them?

11 A. Sad to say, but that's the truth, yes.

12 Q. Then we can move on.

13 A number of references to Mr. Kordic and

14 inquiries about his position appear, ma'am, in the

15 records of the ECMM. I'd just like to show you a few,

16 if I may. The first one is dated the 15th of December,

17 1993.

18 A. Written by Mr. Turnbull, probably.

19 Q. Just checking, and I'll let you know. The

20 authors of this document appear to be a gentleman by

21 the name of Aage Terp, Gerard van der Elshout, and

22 Johan Swennen. Let me just show it to you, if I may.

23 A. Yes. I know all three of them.

24 Q. Thank you. Just --

25 THE REGISTRAR: The last document was marked

Page 11171

1 D142/1, and this document is marked D143/1.

2 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

3 Q. Just two or three questions about this

4 document, ma'am.

5 There's a reference to the HCC in Mostar

6 meeting a gentleman called Slobodan Lovrenovic, who is

7 the press advisor to Mate Boban. When asked

8 specifically about the status of Mr. Kordic, who had

9 been a vice-president of the Croatian Community of

10 Herceg-Bosna, the HCC was informed that Mr. Kordic no

11 longer held presidential office but merely was one of

12 many legislators in the house of representatives.

13 Do you recall any internal discussion at the

14 ECMM in December or January on this topic, ma'am?

15 A. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. Similarly, at the bottom of the page, there's

20 a reference to a discussion between the HCC of Travnik,

21 who I gather was Mr. Stutt --

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. -- a discussion between him and Mr. Blaskic,

24 and the topic of Mr. Kordic's status within the

25 republic cropped up, and Colonel Blaskic informed

Page 11172

1 Mr. Stutt that he was not a politician and had not

2 followed the political process. Did you have any

3 discussion on that subject about Mr. Kordic's status

4 with Mr. Stutt at around this time, ma'am, or shortly

5 thereafter?

6 A. Mr. Stutt is a military man, and it's a

7 well-known fact that military and politicians don't mix

8 terribly well.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. That he says -- that Mr. Blaskic says that he

11 doesn't know anything about politics comes as no

12 surprise. I think I'd give the same answer.

13 Q. The next ECMM report, I don't need to go into

14 that. Let me just see if I can pick up the pace here a

15 little, ma'am.

16 On the subject of helicopter flights about

17 which you testified, you never actually saw Mr. Kordic

18 take a flight in a helicopter at any time after you

19 took up your duties as a V1 ECMM monitor in December of

20 1993, did you?

21 A. No, sir, I did not.

22 Q. And I believe that the only helicopter

23 landing that you witnessed yourself, the one in which

24 the Warriors apprehended it by force, occurred after

25 the war had already ended, after the signature of the

Page 11173

1 Washington Agreements.

2 A. That was the one that I actually witnessed.

3 I saw them leaving from Split before. We had had a lot

4 of reported helicopter movement which was taking place

5 during the night during the war, which made sense; they

6 were hardly going to fly during the day. But the only

7 one that I did see was the one that actually landed on

8 the 11th of March, I believe it was.

9 Q. After the signature of the Washington --

10 A. Correct. Still a violation.

11 Q. One question, if I may, about the subject

12 that you gave regarding the imam in Busovaca.

13 In your statement two and a half years ago,

14 you made no reference to the imam, did you? I mean you

15 have reviewed your statement, I take it.

16 A. To be honest, I would have to check my

17 statement again about the imam, but I can't say off the

18 top of my head because I haven't got the document here

19 in front of me, so ...

20 Q. All right. If I might just show you the next

21 document I would like to have marked, which is an ECMM

22 report from the CC Travnik, February 16, 1994. Thank

23 you.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

25 D144/1.

Page 11174


2 Q. The CC Travnik, as we've established, is

3 Mr. Stutt?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And he was the one that actually drafted the

6 political situation summary that is contained on

7 page 1; correct?

8 A. I believe I was sitting right next to him

9 when he did it. That's correct.

10 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that

11 Mr. Stutt was doing most of the talking and you were

12 actually taking notes?

13 A. No, it's not true, actually; not on this

14 particular occasion, no.

15 Q. You came out and spoke your mind on that one

16 particular subject; is that right?

17 A. It was my meeting. I took Mr. Stutt along

18 for protection.

19 Q. And that was the first meeting that you had

20 had with Mr. Kordic, as we've established; right?

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 Q. Now, did the imam tell you that he had

23 actually been paying visits to his mother and spending

24 time in Kacuni?

25 A. I don't remember him saying that, no.

Page 11175

1 Q. All right.

2 A. If he did, he must have done it before my

3 time, because by the time I got to him, he was going --

4 he wasn't allowed out of the house. But Kacuni at that

5 time was cut off, so there was only one route into

6 Kacuni and that was -- I interviewed one gentleman that

7 had gone from Travnik to Kacuni, and it took him 12

8 hours, with the aid of a donkey. So I don't know how

9 the imam got to Kacuni. He must have done it before I

10 arrived.

11 Q. Very well. It's true, ma'am, that while you

12 were in Central Bosnia, the ABiH launched two large

13 offensives in the Vitez-Busovaca area; correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. The first was just before Christmas on

16 December the 22nd and the 24th, 1993, and that resulted

17 in numerous deaths and casualties, an attack on

18 Krizancevo Selo, and it was those bodies that you saw

19 exhumed about a month later, was it?

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. And then the second attack was on Santici and

22 Buhine Kuce, I believe-- please forgive my

23 pronunciation -- on the 9th of January, 1994?

24 A. That's correct, yes.

25 Q. Would it be fair to say, ma'am, that between

Page 11176

1 those two events, those two offensives, the ECMM's view

2 was that morale in the Vitez-Busovaca pocket, at least

3 from the Croat perspective, was as low as anybody could

4 remember?

5 A. I'm sorry, let me just go back a step here.

6 Do you mean that the morale of the HVO soldiers was

7 low?

8 Q. And the civilians, yes.

9 A. I think they had gone into survival mode, if

10 you ask my opinion. It wasn't as low as the army of

11 BiH, but it wasn't far off it. They were struggling,

12 both sides.

13 Q. I don't think we need to make this an

14 exhibit, but from the RC Zenica daily report for

15 December the 28th, 1993, the head of the regional

16 centre makes the observation that HVO morale in Vitez,

17 Kiseljak, and Zepce is as low as anybody can recall

18 having seen it.

19 A. On the 28th of December, 1993, I was actually

20 away in the U.K. on leave, so if he says that's the

21 case, then that must have been based on the previous

22 Victor 1 leader who I took over from, so presumably

23 that's the conclusion that they came to.

24 Q. And that was Mr. Turnbull?

25 A. That's correct, yes.

Page 11177

1 Q. The testimony that you gave regarding threats

2 made by Commander Blaskic to explode the SPS factory in

3 Vitez, those warnings were fairly routine, weren't

4 they? They had been going on for a number of months

5 and it was really nothing new?

6 A. It's what I could describe as normal Balkan

7 provocation. It seems threatening to us, but it's

8 normal life where they live. I thought it was quite a

9 good plan myself.

10 Q. A few questions, ma'am, on the subject of the

11 ABiH attack on Santici on the 9th of January, 1994.

12 There's no question that this was a concerted

13 3rd Corps assault on the main supply route at Santici,

14 spearheaded by Mujahedin forces; correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. The Mujahedin forces, in fact, were

17 supplemented by troops from the 3rd Corps, weren't

18 they?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And in launching the attacks on the village

21 of Santici, the assault troops used standard FIBUA

22 tactics, fighting in built-up area tactics, standard

23 house-to-house clearance tactics, as far as you could

24 see; correct?

25 A. You mean the army of BiH troops used those

Page 11178

1 type of tactics? I didn't see them do it, but if they

2 did, they made a fairly poor stab at it, because I've

3 seen it done professionally and it was not very well

4 done. In fact, it was just haphazard and fairly

5 sporadic, with a hint of optimistic attached. They

6 didn't get very far.

7 Q. All of the Bosnian Croat civilians who

8 declined to flee from their homes, though, were killed,

9 weren't they?

10 A. I saw two casualties, two dead bodies from

11 the attack on Santici, yes. They were -- one was

12 unable to run away because he had been hit by a car a

13 year earlier and he was on crutches. They grabbed him

14 first. There was a female of about 35 years old. She

15 was lying dead in the garden in the same area. I know

16 of two that couldn't leave the area.

17 Q. Thank you. On page 5 of your statement, you

18 said that you saw two women shot dead in their garden

19 as they were trying to escape the assault. Is that

20 consistent with your current recollection?

21 A. I saw one woman in the morgue and I saw one

22 man who had been impaled. I don't remember the other

23 woman, to be honest.

24 Q. All right. The second individual that you

25 identified was about 60-years old, a crippled man who

Page 11179

1 was killed and cut in half; correct?

2 A. Umm-hmm, correct.

3 Q. That gentleman's -- the top half of his body

4 was then impaled on a pole about nine or ten feet long;

5 correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Do you know if anything was done within the

8 3rd Corps, ma'am, to investigate these appalling

9 crimes?

10 A. No, I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know whether any measures at all were

12 taken to discipline or remove any military commanders

13 who were responsible for that attack?

14 A. I asked General Mehmet Alagic about this, and

15 he said it was the work of the Mujahedin. He said that

16 the Mujahedin didn't come under his control from Cesko

17 [phoen] Brigada. He said that they were working

18 independently.

19 And it transpired later that any dealings

20 with the so-called Mujahedin were well and truly out of

21 Alagic's reach. So although he was the commander, or

22 second in commander, and then took over 7th Muslim

23 Brigade, he actually didn't wield much power, because

24 when I put him to the test, he couldn't help me.

25 Q. I have a photograph here, ma'am. I would

Page 11180

1 just like you to identify whether this was the

2 gentleman that you saw in his dismembered condition?

3 A. Yes, that's him.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Document marked D145/1.


6 Q. A very brief question, ma'am, on one of the

7 exhibits that you were shown, Exhibit Z1381,1.

8 There is a reference in this document to the

9 Hotel Vitez, the HVO headquarters, being subjected to

10 sporadic mortar fire from Stari Vitez. Was that a

11 fairly common occurrence, in your view, during this

12 war?

13 A. Almost daily. In fact, the day that I went

14 to see this exhibit here, they were busy shelling the

15 Hotel Vitez every 40 minutes. I worked it out. And

16 within those 40 minutes, I managed to run from the

17 Hotel Vitez, to go and see this exhibit, and run back

18 again. It was fairly intense, and it was going on

19 every day, just about.

20 Q. Just one question, ma'am, in connection with

21 the mid-March 1994 meeting that you had with Mr. Kordic

22 and your boss, if you like, Mr. Stutt.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That was after the Washington Agreement had

25 already been signed, I take it?

Page 11181

1 A. That's correct, yeah.

2 Q. Did you know that Mr. Kordic had been

3 appointed as the President of the Croatian Republic of

4 Herceg-Bosna Commission for the implementation of the

5 Washington Agreement?

6 A. No, I didn't. To be honest, I didn't at that

7 time, no. I took notes that day. That wasn't my

8 meeting.

9 Q. Do you have those notes with you, or are they

10 lost?

11 A. No, I have them here. Just give me a minute.

12 Q. Is there anything of a personal nature in

13 there, or is it all business?

14 A. I just have to check and make sure I haven't

15 already submitted this one. Just give me a second,

16 please.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, you've now been

18 nearly an hour on this cross-examination. How much

19 longer do you require?

20 MR. SAYERS: Perhaps five, ten minutes, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Kovacic, are you

23 cross-examining this witness?

24 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour, we don't.

25 A. I can't find it. It's in here somewhere.

Page 11182


2 Q. That's quite all right, ma'am. Just a few

3 final questions on some final topics, if I may. First,

4 you never saw, at any time during your tour of duty in

5 Central Bosnia, detainees being used to dig trenches,

6 did you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Or being used as so-called human shields?

9 A. No. I went to the prison in -- I can't

10 pronounce it -- Kaonik, I think. It's near Busovaca

11 anyway. And I saw what they had in there, but they

12 weren't being used. But they were being accused of

13 doing it. I never saw it.

14 Q. You yourself, though, never saw any people

15 used for forced labour, did you?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. And you never witnessed any maltreatment of

18 detainees at any time during your tour; is that

19 correct?

20 A. No, I didn't see that. No.

21 Q. You were asked some questions, ma'am, in

22 connection with one topic that actually may require us

23 to go into private session again, Mr. President, if I

24 may.

25 [Private session]

Page 11183













13 pages 11183-11194 redacted private session













Page 11195

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (Open Session)


Page 11196

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a

3 seat.

4 Examined by Ms. Somers:

5 Q. Madam Witness, would you state your --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 Microphone, Ms. Somers.


9 Q. Would you speak into the microphone and state

10 it, please?

11 JUDGE MAY: Can you give us your full name,

12 please?

13 A. Nasiha Neslanovic. I was born on the 16th of

14 June, 1958, in Busovaca.


16 Q. You were born in Busovaca and continued to

17 live there until the war?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And your occupation formerly was mail courier

20 and cleaning lady?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you are, by ethnicity, a Bosniak or a

23 person of the Muslim persuasion?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you work in Busovaca during the entire

Page 11197

1 period up until the war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where did --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- you work?

6 A. In the municipal hall, in the municipal hall

7 in Busovaca.

8 Q. Did you know Dario Kordic when you lived in

9 Busovaca?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long did you know him?

12 A. I knew him for a very long time, ever since

13 we were children until this day.

14 Q. Did you have a professional relationship with

15 Dario Kordic's mother?

16 A. Yes, because his mother was a physician. She

17 treated my brother, myself, my child, and so on.

18 Q. Where did you have treatment given by

19 Dr. Kordic?

20 A. The treatment was given in the health centre,

21 and at times I also went to their home, that is, to

22 their flat, if there was something urgent, if I needed

23 some urgent care for my child or my brother or

24 somebody. So we would go to her home for either some

25 findings or for a prescription, whatever kind of help

Page 11198

1 we needed.

2 MS. SOMERS: I would ask the usher to show

3 Z1472,1 to the witness.

4 Q. Did you ever have treatment by Dr. Kordic

5 after the war had begun in Busovaca?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And where was the treatment given?

8 A. At the health centre in Busovaca. She

9 treated me during the war because it was during the war

10 I fell ill, and I went to the health centre and I was

11 standing in the passage, and there was some military

12 and civilians --

13 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just tell us the

14 doctor who treated you during the war. That's

15 sufficient.


17 Q. Can you simply tell us, is this the same Dom

18 Zdravlja that is mentioned at the bottom of the page of

19 the document that you have in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was there also a war hospital near Dom

22 Zdravlja in Busovaca?

23 A. Yes. It was a kindergarten which was then

24 converted into a war hospital during the war. That is,

25 they evacuated the children and turned it into a war

Page 11199

1 hospital.

2 Q. And the time frame when you received your

3 treatment from Dr. Kordic during the war, was it after

4 25th of January, 1993?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At the time you were treated by Dr. Kordic,

7 did she have on a military uniform?

8 A. No. She wore the professional white clothes,

9 the white frock.

10 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Somers, you referred to a

11 Document 1472,1. We were handed a number of documents,

12 but that one doesn't seem to be amongst them.

13 MS. SOMERS: I'm terribly sorry, Your

14 Honour. It should have been a top document, actually,

15 a separate one.

16 JUDGE MAY: We have 175,1.

17 MS. SOMERS: If it's not there, please give

18 my copy. I apologise. It should have been in a pile

19 with two copies.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not

21 have it.

22 JUDGE MAY: This document is the

23 announcement, is it, of an award to Dr. Kordic?

24 MS. SOMERS: Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: Appears to be.

Page 11200

1 MS. SOMERS: I have no further questions of

2 the document. I was identifying locations and whether

3 or not there was a uniform at the time.


5 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

6 Q. Going back a bit in time, did something

7 unusual happen on the steps of the police station in

8 May of 1992 in Busovaca?

9 A. Yes. I was carrying the mail to the police

10 station in Busovaca, there were some letters, and as I

11 reached the stairs, I saw two men in black clothes. I

12 first -- I thought they were chimney sweepers. But

13 when I reached the staircase, I saw the two were

14 wearing black uniforms with caps with the letter "U" on

15 them, and I stopped at the staircase because I was very

16 taken aback by this uniform. To my mind, it only

17 existed in history in the past. I saw it in textbooks

18 but never in reality. So I was rather lost, and one of

19 the policemen took me by the hand so I could leave the

20 mail there.

21 Then I came back to the municipal hall very

22 surprised and told my boss that I had seen those

23 uniforms and with the letter "U". He said, "Well, this

24 won't be the first time you're coming across that."

25 Q. What did the letter "U" represent to you?

Page 11201

1 A. Well, we learned about that in our history

2 classes, that that meant -- that was the symbol of the

3 Ustasha, that those were uniforms in the last war and

4 those uniforms were rather old, and because -- they

5 were pretty frayed and moth-eaten because they must

6 have been concealed somewhere, lying somewhere for so

7 many years. I mean, it was obvious that they could be

8 dated to the last war, because they were very old. I

9 mean those were really old clothes, really.

10 Q. Did you recognise --

11 A. Quite old.

12 Q. Excuse me. Did you recognise either of the

13 persons wearing those uniforms?

14 A. Yes, I recognised one of them. His last name

15 was Marinic. I knew him. I believe he was Zoran

16 Marinic's uncle, whom I used to know because he was a

17 neighbour of mine and a friend too, and he lived not

18 far from where I lived.

19 Q. Does Zoran Marinic use any other name?

20 A. Yes, he did. He was called Svabo. More

21 people knew him as Svabo than by his real name and

22 surname.

23 Q. The boss to whom you addressed your concern,

24 what was his ethnicity?

25 A. He was a Croat.

Page 11202

1 Q. Going back a bit further yet, in November

2 1991 do you recall any referendum that was presented to

3 you, as a citizen of Busovaca, to create or to vote to

4 create the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

5 A. No, I don't know about that. I never went

6 out to such a referendum, nor do I know that there was

7 one.

8 Q. In November '91, did you observe any changes

9 in the way things were taking place around you in

10 Busovaca?

11 A. I didn't understand. Oh, I see, yes. Yes,

12 there were major changes.

13 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. You know,

14 Ms. Somers, we've heard quite a lot of evidence about

15 this, so I think you can move on to the next

16 paragraph.

17 MS. SOMERS: Of course, Your Honour, of

18 course.

19 Q. It's okay. Thank you, Ms. Neslanovic. We'll

20 move on to another question.

21 Are you aware of what position, if any, Dario

22 Kordic may have held in Busovaca through the HDZ after

23 the 1991 elections?

24 A. Dario Kordic was appointed the chief of all

25 national defence. He was designated to the post by the

Page 11203

1 HDZ, and so he was the chief of the national defence.

2 Q. During that time period, did you see Dario

3 Kordic during the course of the workday?

4 A. Practically every day. I mean, we met in the

5 passage, in the corridor, every day. He came to work

6 every day after he was appointed the head, the chief,

7 for the national defence.

8 Q. Were you involved in any work concerning his

9 office? Did you have to go into his office?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Why?

12 A. Well, to bring in whatever mail there would

13 be, or to clean the place, or anything, or if I had to

14 call somebody out who was there. So I mean I always

15 went in on business, only when there was something

16 official that had to be done; to take in letters, to

17 sweep the office, things like that.

18 Q. During that time period, did you observe how

19 Dario Kordic was dressed when he came to work?

20 A. Yes. At the outset, he wore a civilian

21 uniform, and then he would wear a military uniform too,

22 that is, the multi-coloured -- the camouflage uniform.

23 And that was as of April. As of April, people began to

24 don camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. April of what year?

Page 11204

1 A. '92.

2 Q. Did he carry any weapons when he came to

3 work, that you could see?

4 A. From time to time, yes. Now and then; not

5 always. But I would see him. Sometimes he would have

6 a pistol over his clothes, and sometimes he would take

7 off his jacket and then we would see the pistol. That

8 was his personal weapon.

9 Q. Did he have bodyguards?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall how many?

12 A. He had two bodyguards who escorted him, who

13 accompanied him always, waited for him when he attended

14 meetings, and they were armed.

15 Q. Did you recognise either of the bodyguards?

16 Were they from Busovaca?

17 A. Yes, one of them was from Busovaca, and

18 another one came from Kresevo. The former one wore a

19 multi-coloured uniform and a short rifle, and the

20 latter one had black clothing, white belt, and the

21 holster was also white, the pistol holster. I don't

22 know what you call it, but that was white. The white

23 belt and the black uniform, the one from Kresevo, that

24 is how he was dressed. And I saw him later on at the

25 police station. When he was not with Dario, he was at

Page 11205

1 the police station.

2 Q. Looking at the period of June or perhaps

3 early July of 1992, did you observe any special

4 military measures taken by the HVO in Busovaca?

5 A. You mean since 1992, in 19 --

6 Q. In, yes. Did you observe any special

7 military measures taken by the HVO in Busovaca, and if

8 so, against whom were these measures directed?

9 A. Yes. Sometime in July, on Tihomira Jovica

10 Street, where the majority of residents were Muslim,

11 practically the whole street was Muslim. And in Kadica

12 Mahala, there were also Muslim residents, and their

13 machine-gun nests were set up there and soldiers who

14 manned them and controlled that street.

15 Several times in daytime, a small dump truck

16 would come in with a far-ranging weapon and it would

17 patrol the streets several times a day, both these

18 streets, from one machine-gun nest to another. They

19 would pass, they would drive by and intimidate us; that

20 is how we understood it, to instill fear in us, because

21 there was no other ethnic group but Muslims there.

22 Q. If you recall, do you know at whom the

23 machine-guns in the nests were directed, if you recall?

24 A. They were directed at Muslim houses, because

25 all those houses were Muslim. So they were aiming at

Page 11206

1 those houses, not in front, not behind; either to the

2 left or to the right, depending on whether they were

3 coming back or going.

4 Q. Do you recall, were they always manned or --

5 I'm sorry. Were they manned at all times?

6 A. At that particular period of time, yes.

7 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I think if this

8 were to be the end of today's session, this would be a

9 convenient time.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think we've heard

11 about -- we've heard evidence, quite a lot of it, about

12 the takeover of Busovaca, so it may be convenient to

13 start at paragraph 7 tomorrow, with the 25th of

14 January, '93.

15 MS. SOMERS: With the Court's permission,

16 there are some points in 6. I agree that a good deal

17 has been given. There are some points that I believe

18 have never been brought up in Court, and if I may just

19 selectively ask questions from there, getting past the

20 bulk of it.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

23 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Neslanovic, we are adjourning

24 today. I hope you've been told that it may not be

25 possible to hear your evidence tomorrow first thing

Page 11207

1 because there's another urgent witness to be heard, and

2 I hope you'll bear with us while that's done. But we

3 shall deal with your evidence as soon as we possibly

4 can so that you can finish within a few days.

5 Could you remember, in this adjournment and

6 any others there may be in this case, don't speak to

7 anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that

8 does include members of the Prosecution.

9 So could you be back, please --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of

11 course.

12 JUDGE MAY: Can you be back, please, when

13 you're told.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn until tomorrow at

16 half past 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18 4.15 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

19 the 7th day of December, 1999, at

20 9.30 a.m.