Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 374

1 Wednesday, 4 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 I see one additional member on the team, Mr. Harmon.

11 MR. HARMON: Yes. That is correct, Your Honours. Good afternoon.

12 Good afternoon, Counsel. We are joined today by Mr. Thomas Hannis, who

13 will be leading the first witness in this case. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for introducing Mr. Hannis, Mr. Harmon.

15 Before I give you the opportunity to proceed with your open statement, I'd

16 like to announce that the Chamber allows Mr. Krajisnik to make a short

17 statement after the opening statement of the Prosecution.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

19 [Prosecution Opening Statement]

20 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honours, Counsel.

21 Yesterday, when I concluded the day, I was discussing criminal

22 responsibility under Article 7(3), and I had focussed my attention on one

23 part of the third element, that is, whether or not the accused had reason

24 to know that his subordinates were about to commit crimes or had done so.

25 I would now like to focus on the other part of that element,

Page 375

1 whether the accused had actual knowledge that his subordinates were about

2 to commit crimes or had done so.

3 Now, actual knowledge can be established either through direct

4 evidence or through circumstantial evidence, from which it can be inferred

5 that the accused had actual knowledge. We intend, in the course of this

6 trial, to present both types of evidence to establish this particular

7 element.

8 The commission of experts set forth in their final report a number

9 of relevant factors that can be considered when focussing on the

10 circumstantial evidence of knowledge, and I will identify some of those

11 factors now, starting with the number of illegal acts that occurred; the

12 type of illegal acts; the scope of the illegal acts; the time during which

13 the illegal acts occurred; the number and types of troops involved; the

14 geographical location of the acts; the widespread occurrence of the acts;

15 the modus operandi of similar illegal acts; and the officers and the staff

16 involved.

17 Now, our evidence will show that the accused had direct knowledge,

18 both that crimes were about to be committed and that they had been

19 committed.

20 Our evidence will show that throughout the war, the Bosnian Serb

21 army and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the police, informed the

22 presidency on a daily basis about the events on the ground.

23 The presidency received regular reports through the government,

24 which was in regular contact with the municipalities, with the crisis

25 staffs, with the Serb Autonomous Regions, and it also received reports

Page 376

1 from the individual ministries.

2 In addition, General Ratko Mladic reported personally and

3 frequently to the presidency. He reported about the events that were

4 occurring on the ground.

5 Now, according to a document that we will present to Your Honours

6 during this trial -- this document is entitled "The analysis of the combat

7 readiness and activities of the VRS in 1992". It describes a

8 communication system that was fully functional. I will quote part of that

9 report, and I quote: "With a high degree of certainty, we can say that

10 the existing communication system meets the needs of command coordination

11 and report needs at all levels, from the supreme command, the supreme

12 commander, the General Staff, to lower levels."

13 Our evidence will show that the crimes that form part of this

14 indictment were reported directly to the Main Staff of the VRS and to the

15 presidency, and that the presidency was informed on a daily basis about

16 events and problems that took place on the ground.

17 Let me again take Your Honours back to the 34th Bosnian Serb

18 Assembly session and quote for you the words of General Milan Gvero, who

19 said, and I quote: "The Main Staff has consistently provided oral and

20 written information to the commander-in-chief, the prime minister, the

21 Minister of Defence, and others, about all the problems."

22 Now, let me give you some examples of the types of evidence of

23 those problems that we will present to Your Honours, and these are taken

24 from the reports of the VRS Main Staff.

25 One is a report from the 1st Krajina Corps, dated the 22nd of

Page 377

1 August, 1992. It is a regular combat report, and I quote from it: "A

2 massacre against civilians, Muslim men, was committed on 21 August,

3 between 1830 and 1900 hours. It was committed by a group of policemen

4 escorting a convoy of refugees to Travnik. The massacre took place at

5 Koricanske Stijene, in the canyon of Ilomska River at Mount Vlasic. About

6 100 people were killed in various ways and left in the canyon."

7 Now, this particular crime is identified in schedule B of our

8 indictment, at point 15.5, and this particular report, which went to the

9 Main Staff, was reported at a time when the accused was a member of the

10 expanded presidency.

11 Let me turn to another report, again from the 1st Krajina Corps,

12 issued to the VRS Main Staff. It is dated the 4th of November, 1992. It

13 also reports a crime. And let me quote from that report: "In the area of

14 Kotor Varos," and, Your Honours, Kotor Varos is one of the municipalities

15 identified in our indictment. It goes on to say: "About 40 Green Beret

16 members were killed and about 200 captured. A brutal massacre of the

17 captured members of the Green Berets started because of the wounding of

18 four and killing of one soldier of the Kotor Varos Light Infantry

19 Brigade." And the report goes on.

20 Now, this particular event, this crime, is identified in schedule

21 B at point 11. And again, our evidence will show when this particular

22 crime was reported to the VRS Main Staff, the accused was a member of the

23 expanded presidency.

24 Now, Your Honours, our evidence will show that the plight of the

25 victims of this ethnic cleansing campaign were daily fare in the media, to

Page 378

1 which the Bosnian Serb leadership had access. And I recall quite well,

2 and Your Honours may recall as well, that the brutality of this campaign

3 was depicted in daily fare in the media. And I will turn once again to an

4 exhibit that I have previously shown you. This exhibit from Bijeljina.

5 There will be many more pictures from the media that were depicted in

6 1992, but this image in particular is one which shocked the world and one

7 that was in the media and caused the international community such concern

8 that they made a series of reports and took a series of official actions

9 to indeed -- that resulted finally in this creation of this institution.

10 But this is the type of image that was in the media. Other sorts of

11 haunting images as well appeared daily in the media.

12 This, for example, is the type of an image that -- one of many

13 that was shown in the media, depicting the conditions in the Bosnian Serb

14 camps, camps that were created by the Bosnian Serbs, that were

15 instrumental in the ethnic cleansing campaign. These images -- and if we

16 could have the next image now on the screen.

17 The next image also is an image that was in the media. It shows a

18 scene, the conditions how a number of Bosnian Muslim civilians were

19 detained in the Manjaca camp.

20 There are other images as well that would put the accused on

21 notice. Let me turn to the next image, a typical image that we saw daily

22 in the newspapers, showing the plight of refugees who were being forced

23 from their homes. Other images would have put the accused on notice.

24 Let me turn to another image, showing what was part of the

25 heritage - can I have the next image, please? - part of the heritage of

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Page 380

1 humanity. This is a picture of a mosque, the Alidza mosque, built in the

2 middle of the 1500s that truly was a magnificent sight. This next image

3 is part of its interior. And what images we saw of those sites that had

4 been part of our common heritage, we saw the following types of images.

5 If I could have the next image. This is what's left of the Alidza

6 mosque, and we saw repeatedly in the course of 1992 similar types of

7 images where this common heritage had been reduced to piles of stone and

8 rubble, where these beautiful structures had become parking lots or vacant

9 lots.

10 Now, Your Honours, the evidence will show that the crimes that

11 were being committed by the Bosnian Serb forces against the Bosnian

12 Muslims and the Bosnian Croats were widely reported, and complaints about

13 them were made directly to the accused, to Radovan Karadzic, and to other

14 Bosnian Serb and Serbian leaders, by diplomats, by journalists, by

15 non-governmental organisations such as UNHCR, or the Red Cross, or Amnesty

16 International. Our evidence will show that the Bosnian Serb leadership

17 was receiving this type of information, and I will refer you to a piece of

18 evidence, one of many that we will present during the course of this

19 trial, the minutes of the 5th session of the presidency, dated the 10th of

20 June, 1992, at a time when Mr. Krajisnik was a member of the presidency.

21 And in those minutes, it reflects that the presidency received information

22 in the form of reports from the international community.

23 Now, examples of such reports from the international community

24 will be led in evidence and presented in evidence by us. I'd like to

25 refer to two specific reports. Those reports were prepared by

Page 381

1 Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki, who was a Special Rapporteur of the United Nations

2 Commission on Human Rights. Both of those reports were issued at a time

3 when the accused was a member of the expanded presidency. One report is

4 dated the 28th of August, 1992, and the other report was issued on the

5 27th of October, 1992.

6 In the 27 October report, Mr. Mazowiecki said, and I quote: "As

7 indicated in the first report, the Muslim population are the principal

8 victims and are virtually threatened with extermination."

9 Now, Mr. Mazowiecki's report, which was prepared over 11 years

10 ago, described ethnic cleansing with striking accuracy. What his report

11 said was as follows: "Ethnic cleansing does not appear to be the

12 consequence of the war, but rather its goal."

13 Now, a veritable flood of credible information about the crimes

14 that were being committed by the Bosnian Serb forces inundated the Bosnian

15 Serb leadership. According to the evidence that we will present, their

16 responses to these reports yielded little other than denials that such

17 crimes had occurred, surprise that such crimes had occurred, complaints

18 that the other side was doing the same thing. Sometimes it resulted in

19 directives issued to their forces to comply with international

20 humanitarian law, but seldom were those directives enforced.

21 Now, the last element that we must establish to establish criminal

22 responsibility under Article 7(3) is that the accused failed to take

23 necessary and reasonable measures to prevent the offences from occurring

24 or to punish the perpetrators.

25 As the person who sat at the pinnacle of power within the Bosnian

Page 382

1 Serb leadership, Momcilo Krajisnik had fulsome de jure and de facto

2 authority to prevent perpetrators from committing crimes or to punish them

3 for having done so.

4 As the supreme commander of the army, the members of the

5 presidency, including Mr. Krajisnik, had the duty and the power under the

6 constitution and existing laws to order the army and to order the police

7 to investigate crimes, and they actually exercised that power. I will not

8 go into the details of those legal authorities. I'll leave that for

9 expert witnesses to testify about. But I'd like to provide you with some

10 examples to illustrate the fact that the presidency did indeed have the

11 power to investigate crimes, and these examples are taken directly from

12 the minutes of the presidency meetings where Mr. Krajisnik was present.

13 We will introduce these minutes as evidence in this case.

14 At the 14th session of the presidency, which was on the 3rd of

15 July, 1992, the presidency ordered the police to investigate the activity

16 of paramilitary units in the municipalities of Gacko and Nevesinje, for

17 terrorist acts directed against the civilian population.

18 At the 24th session of the presidency, the 6th of August, 1992,

19 the minister of the interior was ordered to investigate the behaviour of

20 all civilian authorities and individuals guarding prisoners of war, and

21 that information was supposed to be passed back to the presidency.

22 At that very same session, the presidency ordered that a

23 commission for investigating war crimes committed against the Serbian

24 people be established, not a commission to investigate war crimes against

25 all people, but against Serbian people.

Page 383

1 And finally, Your Honours, another example: On the 26th of

2 October, 1992, the presidency ordered the military authority and the

3 command, the VRS command, to investigate accusations that had been made in

4 respect of a politician by the name of Branko Simic.

5 Now, in addition to the powers that the presidency had to

6 investigate, they had other authorities and other powers at their disposal

7 that would have deterred and would have prevented the systematic

8 commission of crimes throughout the territory which they occupied. Our

9 evidence will show that they had the power to directly affect the judicial

10 system. They had the power to make judicial appointments, including the

11 appointments of prosecutors, deputy prosecutors and secretaries to the

12 military disciplinary courts.

13 They had the power to adopt regulations on military discipline;

14 the power to reduce, ameliorate, or rescind any disciplinary measure or

15 punishment. They actually had the power to prescribe disciplinary

16 measures or punishments, and they could decide a variety of personnel

17 matters, such as promotions of officers, appointments of officers,

18 transfer of officers; and they could decide as well on the admission to

19 active military service, or the cessation of active military service of

20 general officers.

21 Our evidence will show that the presidency appointed military

22 judges and prosecutors who would look the other way when the victims of

23 crimes were non-Serbs. They appointed civilian judges and prosecutors who

24 never prosecuted members of the police for crimes that the police had

25 committed.

Page 384

1 We will call witnesses, and we will introduce evidence of actual

2 court records that demonstrate how the court systems actually operated in

3 1992. What is glaringly obvious from these records is that Bosnian Serb

4 perpetrators were seldomly, if ever, prosecuted and punished where the

5 victims were non-Serbs. There were rare and exceptional cases when it did

6 happen, but it was quite common in those cases for the perpetrators to be

7 released back to their military units for active service.

8 However, where the evidence shows that the victim was a Serb, the

9 records demonstrate a different approach, and in those cases, the records

10 will demonstrate that the prosecutions did indeed proceed, there were

11 convictions, and punishment was meted out.

12 Finally, our evidence will show that the pattern of selective

13 prosecution made deterrence of ethnically directed crimes impossible, and

14 indeed, it encouraged the perpetrators to commit additional crimes with

15 impunity.

16 Your Honours, this concludes my opening remarks. I thank you for

17 your patience. We will undertake to present the evidence in this case as

18 expeditiously as possible, while at the same time bearing in mind the

19 solemn responsibilities imposed upon us by the international community.

20 We are satisfied that at the end of the case, after your having heard all

21 of the evidence, you will find Momcilo Krajisnik guilty of the charges in

22 the indictment.

23 Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. The list the Prosecution

25 would provide is already provided or will be provided?

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Page 386

1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the exhibits that I have used are here

2 on this trolley, and I'm prepared to hand them up now, if Your Honours

3 would like. Or I can do it later.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I do understand that they will be tendered

5 into evidence at a later stage of the proceedings. Yes.

6 MR. HARMON: Fine.

7 JUDGE ORIE: But nevertheless, we would like to have an overview

8 on what actually has been presented during the opening statement so that

9 we're fully informed.

10 MR. HARMON: That is not a problem.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Prosecution has now concluded its opening

12 statement, and upon your request, Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber allows you to

13 make a statement, a statement on which, in accordance with Rule 84 bis,

14 you're not required to make a solemn declaration, on which statement

15 you'll not be examined by the parties. I also inform you that Rule 84

16 bis, under (B) reads: The Trial Chamber shall decide on the probative

17 value, if any, of the statements." So whatever you say in your statement,

18 the Chamber could attribute probative value to that, if it decides so.

19 Please proceed.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, I would

21 like to thank you for allowing me to speak briefly at the beginning of my

22 trial. What I wish to say is that I have carefully listened, yesterday

23 and today, to the Prosecutor's opening address, and the charges are very

24 serious that are put forth by the Prosecution. I would like to assure you

25 that everything charged against me is not true. I am innocent on all

Page 387

1 counts of the indictment. I am not guilty. And that is why I hope and

2 believe that in the course of this trial, you, Your Honours, will have

3 enough relevant and truthful documents and evidence to be convinced that

4 I'm not guilty and that the indictment is probably addressed to the wrong

5 person.

6 The Prosecutor also states that they will prove the indictment,

7 and I believe and hope that there will be no documents here that are not

8 true, based on which they will try to do that, and I'm convinced that they

9 will not succeed in proving the charges.

10 Finally, I would like to also state, without abusing your goodwill

11 in permitting me to speak, I would like to state that I believe in God and

12 in justice. I believe that truth will win and that, after having spent

13 some years in prison, I will finally be a free man.

14 I would like to ask you to make sure that the truth wins, since

15 yesterday and today I'm living for that day. I would like the truth to

16 win. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

18 Let me assure you that the Trial Chamber will do whatever is in

19 its ability to find the truth.

20 This brings us to the next stage of this trial, that is, the

21 presentation of Prosecution evidence, and Mr. Hannis, because I understand

22 that I have to address you, would you please call your first witness.

23 MR. HARMON: Mr. Tieger will be excused, with the Court's

24 permission.


Page 388

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. Our first witness will be

3 Isak Gasi.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters have a witness statement,

5 please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, the interpreters are asking for a copy of

7 the witness statement, if available.

8 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm told that we anticipated

9 there would be a break between the statements and the first witness, and

10 we are in the process of getting those materials.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps even without a break, you could take care

12 that the material will arrive as soon as possible.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Welcome in this courtroom. The

15 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration,

16 and I see that the text has already been handed out to you by the usher.

17 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Gasi as I understand.

23 Mr. Gasi you'll first be examined by the Prosecution, so please listen

24 carefully and please answer the questions put to you.

25 Mr. Hannis.

Page 389

1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Examined by Mr. Hannis:

3 Q. Sir, would you tell us your name, please.

4 A. Isak Gasi.

5 Q. And would you tell us where you were born.

6 A. On the 5th of May, 1957, in Brcko.

7 Q. And where is Brcko located?

8 A. Brcko is located in the north-eastern part of Bosnia. It is on

9 the River Sava, which separates us from the Republic of Croatia.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I just interrupt you for one second?

11 The witness has asked just before entering the courtroom to deliver some

12 paperwork to the Prosecution. We are not aware of what it is, Mr. Gasi.

13 Could it suffer some delay, so that you'll first be examined, or is it

14 necessary to deliver that right away? It's a bit uncommon to give

15 documents at the very start of your examination to the Prosecution, but I

16 want to have this as transparent as possible, that since you asked for it

17 and since we have not done it yet, that you're aware of that. Unless

18 there's a specific reason you could give us why it should be delivered to

19 the Prosecution at this very moment.

20 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. May I address that?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

22 MR. HANNIS: Just before we started, Mr. Gasi was looking at a

23 copy of a map that was one of the exhibits on the list we propose to show

24 him and he was making some marks on that map to indicate locations that

25 he'll be talking about, and he brought that with him.

Page 390

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gasi, would there be any problem if I look at it

2 before giving it to the Prosecution, so that I'm aware and that I can

3 verify that this is the contents of the document? And is there any

4 observation to be made from the Defence?

5 MR. STEWART: No observation, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

7 Would you allow me just to have a look at it to see that that is

8 it and then give it to the Prosecution? I see you're nodding yes, but for

9 the transcript, it's unclear. If you just nod, it will not be on the

10 transcript.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's a map of the town of

12 Brcko. That's what it is.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It looks from a distance as a map and some

14 explanatory marks made on it. Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 And if we could show Exhibit 39.023 on our list to the witness,

17 please.

18 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you recognise what that is? Would you please tell

19 the Court what that is.

20 A. Yes. That is the municipality of Brcko and the town of Brcko on a

21 map of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Gasi, can you tell us where -- did you spend your

23 whole life in Brcko up until the time of the war in 1992?

24 A. Yes, all my life, up to the beginning of war in 1992.

25 Q. What kind of work did you do?

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Page 392

1 A. For 15 years I worked as a controller and the person in charge of

2 the maintenance of electrical devices in Brcko. From 1979 to 1992. All

3 in all, about 15 years all together.

4 Q. And did you do any national military service during that time?

5 A. Yes. In 1977, I did my compulsory service, according to the law,

6 and I spent about 14 or 15 months in the army. I did that like every

7 other able-bodied man at that time.

8 Q. What kind of duties did you perform in the army? What unit were

9 you assigned to?

10 A. I was in a traffic unit. I was a driver.

11 Q. In addition to your military service and your work with the

12 electrical company, did you engage in any other kind of activity in

13 Yugoslavia for which you gained some local fame, if I can say that?

14 A. When I was 12 or 13, I started rowing in a kayak club in Brcko.

15 So from the age of am 12 or 13, I've been engaged in rowing, to this very

16 day. And I was quite well known in my own town and in the former

17 Yugoslavia, I should say.

18 Q. Did you compete in that sport at a national and international

19 level?

20 A. Yes. I represented Yugoslavia, both as a junior and then as a

21 senior. I participated in world championships and international regattas

22 all over Europe.

23 Q. Could you tell the Judges what the ethnic make-up of Brcko was

24 before the war in 1992?

25 A. According to the census which took place on the eve of the war,

Page 393

1 there were about 44 to 45 per cent Muslims, as they were called at the

2 time. Today they're called Bosniaks. The second-ranking people were

3 Serbs, accounting for 22 per cent in Brcko municipality; and some 17 to 20

4 per cent were Bosnian Croats.

5 Q. And before 1990, did there come a time where the political

6 situation in the former Yugoslavia changed?

7 A. As far as I followed the media, the newspapers and the TV, there

8 were first some conflicts in Slovenia, and later on those moved to

9 Croatia. And then people started rallying on an ethnic basis. And that's

10 how it all started.

11 Q. After the former Yugoslavian leader Tito died, were there a change

12 in the political system?

13 A. Yes, there was a change. The last communist league congress took

14 place in Belgrade. I don't know exactly when. After Tito died, the

15 situation was stable for some five or six years, and then things started

16 happening in Kosovo. The last party congress which took place in

17 Belgrade, I believe that it was in May 1990, I believe that the League of

18 Communists was dissolved there and people started establishing new

19 political parties in Slovenia, in Croatia, and finally in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Divisions started and ethnically based parties

21 started gathering people around themselves. And that's all I could learn

22 from the TV and the newspapers which were printed at the time.

23 When the League of Communists broke up, new nationalist parties

24 were established.

25 Q. Let me stop you there, sir. Can you tell me: The three primary

Page 394

1 parties, based on the three ethnic groups you told us existed in Brcko,

2 what were they?

3 A. There was the SDA, the Party of Democratic Action, which was

4 primarily a Muslim party; then there was the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic

5 Union. That was the party of Bosniak Croats. And there was the SDS,

6 which rallied around itself members of the Serbian people, the Serbian

7 Democratic Party, that was.

8 Q. And sir, I'm sorry. I didn't ask you before. Could you tell the

9 Court your ethnic background.

10 A. This is something I don't volunteer, but let me tell you: I'm a

11 Muslim.

12 Q. And your father's ethnic background?

13 A. He is an Albanian from Kosovo.

14 Q. Were you present in Brcko and aware of the pre-election activities

15 before the multi-party elections in 1990?

16 A. Yes. I was a member of the organisation or committee. They asked

17 me to join them as the SDA was being set up. I told them I would do it,

18 on a condition that this work was public and that my appearances were not

19 political ones. Apart from that, I would appear in every of their rallies

20 that were open to public.

21 Q. And did all three of the parties hold various rallies before the

22 elections in 1990?

23 A. Yes, as far as I know.

24 Q. And did you eventually become a member of the SDA?

25 A. Yes. I became a member of the SDA. I participated at their

Page 395

1 founding congress in Sarajevo, in May 1990.

2 Q. And how long did you remain a member of the SDA?

3 A. I remained a member up to the multi-party elections in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, and then I publicly said that I no longer wished to be a

5 member of any political party; I wanted to be on my own, my own free

6 agent. And that's what I am to this very day.

7 Q. During that time, did you personally make any public appearances

8 on TV and speak about political matters?

9 A. I didn't speak about any political matters. On one occasion

10 before the referendum on the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I had

11 an opportunity to give an interview, a very short interview, about the

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina I thought I could live in. It was a short

13 interview, in which I said that we all had to endeavour to live in one

14 single state, whose name would be Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that we

15 should all live together.

16 Q. Can you tell us the results of the multi-party elections in 1990

17 in Brcko municipality?

18 A. According to what I know, I believe that the SDP, the former

19 communists, the Socialist Democratic Party, won the majority of the votes.

20 They were followed by the SDA and then the HDZ, and if I'm not mistaken,

21 the third was the Serbian Democratic Party, and a small percentage was won

22 by some other parties which were multi-ethnic, of mixed ethnicity.

23 Q. As a result of those elections, did the nationalist parties do

24 anything to try and avoid the communists from retaining control?

25 A. They set up a coalition, according to the law which was then in

Page 396

1 effect, they set up a coalition to push out communists. They wanted to

2 prevent the communists from gaining any seats in the municipal parliament.

3 That's why they set up the coalition.

4 Q. And was there some sort of agreement among the three nationalist

5 parties to share that power and appoint positions among themselves?

6 A. As far as I know, this was the case.

7 Q. Who became the president of the Municipal Assembly as a result in

8 Brcko?

9 A. Mustafa Ramic, a member of the SDA, was the president of the

10 Municipal Assembly.

11 Q. And do you know who or from which party the head of the Executive

12 Board of the Assembly was?

13 A. He was from the Serbian Democratic Party. His name was Petar or

14 Pero Markovic. In any case, his family name was Markovic.

15 Q. And do you recall who or which candidate was selected to be the

16 police chief?

17 A. Stjepan Filipovic, from the Croatian Democratic Union, was the

18 head of police.

19 Q. And the commander or the head of the local TO, Territorial

20 Defence?

21 A. Major Milisav Milutinovic. I don't know whether he was a member

22 of the SDS or not, but in any event, his ethnic origin was Serb.

23 Q. Do you know who some of the other local SDS leaders were in Brcko

24 at that time?

25 A. The president of the Serbian Democratic Party for the town of

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Page 398

1 Brcko was Milenko Vojinovic, also known as Beli. The vice-president or

2 one of the vice-presidents was Bosko Maricic, another one was

3 Djordje Ristanic. I knew some other people. One of them worked with me.

4 He was a member of the Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic Party. I

5 knew quite a lot of them.

6 Q. Now, I think you mentioned earlier that a conflict had begun to

7 occur in Slovenia and Croatia. As a result of that, was there a

8 mobilisation of young men of military age in Bosnia, and in particular, in

9 Brcko?

10 A. Yes. People received call-up papers, and they were required to go

11 to their assigned units, which were actually reserve units of the former

12 JNA.

13 Q. Do you recall approximately when that call-up began?

14 A. I can't give you the exact date or month. It all coincided with

15 the events in Slovenia. Actually, a few months later, people started

16 receiving those call-up papers, and they were asked to report to their war

17 units.

18 Q. In Brcko municipality, was there any difference in the nature of

19 the response to the military call-up between the three different ethnic

20 groups?

21 A. At the beginning, all the three ethnic groups received call-up

22 papers, but they did not respond to them to the same extent. Later on,

23 things changed. Some people decided to abandon the army. They went home

24 and they said they didn't want to participate in all that. Even many

25 Serbs started abandoning those units which were stationed in the local

Page 399

1 garrison in Brcko. That was just their way to show that they didn't want

2 to participate in any of that. In any event, the majority of people who

3 stayed in those units were the local Serbs from Brcko.

4 Q. Mr. Gasi, as a result of your work with the electric company, was

5 your job such that you were able to travel around the municipality

6 frequently?

7 A. If not every day, then every other day I was moving around. I was

8 in charge of the maintenance and control of measuring devices. So I would

9 travel all over the municipality of Brcko at that time. I would go to all

10 the villages there.

11 Q. And during your travels in late 1991 or early 1992, did you see

12 any signs that indicated the existence of something called an SAO, or a

13 Serb Autonomous Region?

14 A. Yes. At the exit of the town of Brcko, towards Bijeljina, there

15 was a board resembling a traffic sign, with the inscription "SAO Semberija

16 and Majevica." And if you went to the eastern side of Brcko, there was

17 also a board with the inscription "SAO Serbian Krajina." There was

18 nothing in the very town, but the moment you left the town, some 10

19 kilometres around the town there were boards. And that was, I believe,

20 already at the beginning of 1991.

21 Q. When you first saw this sign, did you know what that was referring

22 to?

23 A. As I've already said, there was an abbreviation. However, people

24 talked. There were stories around the town. There were rumours. And

25 later on, we realised what the SAO stood for, SAO Krajina or SAO Semberija

Page 400

1 and Majevica.

2 Q. And what did you learn that it stood for, and what was the purpose

3 of it?

4 A. SAO meant the Serbian Autonomous Region and meant a division into

5 ethnic parts. I never saw anything like that before that time.

6 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the referendum in February of 1992.

7 Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I do. I took part in the referendum.

9 Q. And do you recall what the question was that was presented in the

10 referendum, what that vote was about?

11 A. I think that the question was taken from the constitution of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the existing Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the sense

13 of it was: Are you for an independent sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina, a

14 union of Serbs, Muslims, and Croats? So it was something to that effect,

15 yes or no, and then you would choose your response.

16 Q. Were there political rallies held in Brcko municipality shortly

17 before the referendum about that issue?

18 A. Yes, there were political rallies, gatherings of people. And I

19 say again it was ethnically based. Some were for, some were against,

20 others were not in favour. Yes, there were all three ethnic groups

21 gathered for these rallies. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have a chance to attend a rally held for Serbs regarding

23 the referendum before that vote in February of 1992?

24 A. There was one rally -- actually, it was the Serbian Democratic

25 Party organised a cultural society. It was called Prosvjeta,

Page 401

1 enlightenment, and this rally took place in the cultural hall in Brcko.

2 All from the Serbian Democratic Party from Sarajevo appeared at this

3 rally, except, I think, for Mr. Karadzic. He wasn't there. Everybody

4 else, including Mr. Krajisnik, Biljana Plavsic, Aleksa Buha,

5 Nikola Koljevic, were there. On that occasion, there was also another

6 gentleman from the Republic of Serbia who was introduced at the rally as

7 the minister for the Serbs across the Drina River. There were also a

8 couple of authors, writers, from Belgrade, and I think also two members of

9 the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences from Belgrade.

10 Q. Did you personally attend this rally?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And do you recall what the speeches were about, what the message

13 was?

14 A. In the beginning, when the rally began, they were going to talk

15 about the cultural and artistic heritage of the Serbian people. But as

16 the rally went on and different speakers appeared, this turned actually

17 into a political rally, where I did not feel very comfortable. People

18 were jumping up, shouting out threats; others would get up to calm them

19 down. There was a lot of political tension there. So if you happened to

20 be from a different ethnic group or of a different religion, it would have

21 been better for you to leave that hall.

22 Q. You mentioned threats. What kind of threats?

23 A. I remember a couple of the speakers. Amongst them, I remember a

24 speech by this minister from the Republic of Serbia. At the beginning of

25 his speech, he said that the Serbian people should live together with

Page 402

1 others, and by the end of the speech he said that nobody had the right to

2 separate the Serbian people from Serbia, nobody had the right to speak on

3 behalf of the Serbian people, the Serbian people, if they don't get what

4 they're asking for in Bosnia and Herzegovina, then the Serbian people in

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina can always count on Serbia, they can receive all

6 kinds of assistance from Serbia.

7 So that's how it went. That's the sense of it.

8 After this speaker, the academicians also talked. They talked

9 about the wars that the Serbian people waged throughout history, the blood

10 that was spilled by the Serbian people for freedom. If it could not be

11 done in this way, then it will be done by war.

12 So that's how it proceeded, and eventually the atmosphere became

13 very tense.

14 Q. Thank you. Let me take you to another topic, Mr. Gasi. In 1991,

15 could you tell us and tell the Judges where you were living in Brcko, what

16 part of town.

17 A. It's near the centre of the town. My building is near the JNA

18 garrison in Brcko. It's perhaps about 50 metres away. My balcony is

19 about 50 metres away from the JNA facility.

20 Q. And did you live in a house or an apartment building?

21 A. It's an apartment building, a flat in an apartment building.

22 Q. What floor did you live on?

23 A. The third floor.

24 Q. Were you able to see into the actual facility of the JNA from your

25 apartment?

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Page 404

1 A. I could see the entire garrison.

2 Q. Were there any other JNA facilities or garrisons in Brcko?

3 A. Yes, there were. There was a facility where they had the garages

4 for the heavy vehicles, tanks, and trucks. There was also a military

5 facility, as well as a warehouse of ammunitions and explosives, on the

6 road from Brcko to Loncari, near the village of Krepsic.

7 Q. Apart from the garage for the vehicles and the warehouse for the

8 ammunition and explosives, were there any other facilities other than the

9 garrison next to your apartment, that you know of?

10 A. Near my apartment, there was only the garrison. I don't know

11 about anything else.

12 Q. Based on observations from your apartment and from your travels

13 related to your work, in 1991 did you have occasion to see whether the JNA

14 was involved in providing arms to any of the ethnic groups?

15 A. There were always people in the barracks who were in uniforms of

16 the JNA. However, when I was going through the villages around villages

17 near Brcko, I was present when these people were distributing weapons to

18 the local population from those villages.

19 Q. And which population or which villages are you talking about

20 receiving the weapons?

21 A. They are villages which had 100 per cent Serb population. Serbian

22 Brezovo Polje, Bukvica, Korenica, Potocari, Gredice, Sandici, Trnjaci,

23 Mutica, Pukis, Bobetino Brdo. All of these villages were in the

24 municipality of Brcko, or they belonged to Ugljevik or Bijeljina. But all

25 of them were within a radius of 30 or 40 kilometres south-east of Brcko.

Page 405

1 And from 1990 to 1992, in April, I went to all of those villages. Perhaps

2 not every day, but every other day. I passed through them very often. I

3 would sit down and talk to those people.

4 Q. Did you see weapons being provided by the JNA to any of the Croat

5 or Muslim villages?

6 A. No, I didn't see that.

7 Q. Was there anyone else participating with the JNA in the

8 distribution of weapons to the Serb villages?

9 A. From what I saw at that time, somebody would be in front of the

10 local community centre in that village. They would be standing there. In

11 Serbian Gredica on one occasion I saw a TAM 5.000 500-D trucks when it

12 brought these boxes with automatic and semi-automatic rifles, and people

13 were waiting in front of the local community centre building. They said

14 weapons will be distributed. The truck came.

15 So I was there for about an hour, and I watched as the weapons

16 were being distributed. And this was noted down. In the JNA, each rifle

17 has its own booklet. So if you receive this weapon, you have to sign the

18 book, and it says that such-and-such a person received this rifle, and it

19 also states how many bullets you were issued.

20 Q. Within the town of Brcko itself did you see any of this arming

21 activity of Serbs going on?

22 A. One of my neighbours - this is an example - was always dressed in

23 a camouflage JNA uniform. He would go to town or he would go to cafes in

24 Brcko. They even brought automatic rifles into the cafes, and you could

25 see hand grenades hanging from their belts. They didn't abuse anyone.

Page 406

1 They didn't touch anyone. But it wasn't pleasant to sit with people who

2 had two belts with bullets around them. So times had changed. It wasn't

3 the way I remembered the JNA. It wasn't like that any more.

4 Q. During 1991, from your apartment next to the JNA garrison, did you

5 notice any changes in the nature or level of activity at the JNA garrison

6 in Brcko?

7 A. There were changes. Before, every morning I had the opportunity

8 to hear the bugle and the wake-up call and the young conscripts who would

9 appear in front of the buildings of the garrison. However, in the course

10 of 1991, this stopped, and suddenly mature people began appearing, in

11 their 40s. There were no longer any of these young men around. And for

12 the first time, I saw men wearing the SMB camouflage uniforms with red

13 berets on their heads, which, as far as I remember, I never saw when I was

14 in the army. This is something that I recall.

15 On a couple of occasions when my wife and I took walks by the

16 garrison, I saw those people in red berets, training some local men, local

17 Serbs from my town, training them to place police handcuffs on, taking

18 their pistols out and pointing them at one another. All of this went out

19 right along the fence which divides the garrison from the street on which

20 I lived.

21 Q. These older soldiers with red berets, did you recognise them?

22 Were they local Serbs?

23 A. Some of them were. The others, I didn't know. From my

24 neighbourhood, actually, from my building there were three such men.

25 Amongst them was Ranko Cesic. Also two brothers who lived in the same

Page 407

1 entrance that I lived in and there was another neighbour from the middle

2 entrance. He was also wearing a uniform and one of these red berets on

3 his head. They even used to come home wearing those same uniforms.

4 Q. Mr. Gasi, I want to ask you about some of the political activity

5 that was going on in Brcko town in early 1992. Were you aware of the

6 events that were happening with the local Municipal Assembly and

7 discussions about the future of Brcko town?

8 A. Yes, I did. I attended the assembly session of the Brcko town on

9 one occasion.

10 Q. Were some of the proceedings televised as well of the Municipal

11 Assembly?

12 A. Yes. Local Brcko television broadcast parts of those meetings,

13 and I had the opportunity, with a friend of mine who was a journalist, to

14 attend this meeting. There were many other people who observed the

15 meeting as well.

16 Q. And what in particular do you remember about this meeting you're

17 describing? Do you recall approximately when it was?

18 A. I cannot tell you the exact date, but I think it was in mid-April

19 1992.

20 Q. And what happened at this meeting? What was being discussed?

21 A. A couple of people who joined the discussion said: We don't want

22 the town to be divided. Those who would like to divide it can do so, but

23 they can do so without us. People also shouted this out from their seats.

24 At one point, Djordje Ristanic got up and he slammed his fist on the

25 table: "We will divide it or we will have problems." And he said that

Page 408

1 the last deadline was the 4th of May, but he didn't actually say what

2 would happen after the 4th of May. It was just it has to be divided or

3 there will be all sorts of things happening.

4 Q. And again, who was Djordje Ristanic? What party did he belong to?

5 A. He was from the Serbian Democratic Party, and he was one of the

6 vice-presidents of the SDS. He was in the Executive Board of the SDS,

7 actually.

8 Q. And during this meeting, do you recall if he was -- what he was

9 wearing?

10 A. He wasn't the only one who was wearing the reserves uniform of the

11 JNA. There was also Mr. Millisa Milutinovic and some other gentlemen from

12 the SDS who were there. And they were all wearing JNA uniforms. I think

13 Ristanic was just a captain by rank. I think that he was, unless the

14 insignia had changed at the time without me knowing that.

15 Q. Do you recall if Dr. Beli, Milenko Vojinovic, was at this meeting?

16 A. Yes, he was there also.

17 Q. And do you know what his position was in the SDS or the

18 government?

19 A. He was the president of the SDS of the town board. I'm not sure

20 whether he was a member of the assembly of Brcko, though. I don't think

21 that he was a member of the Municipal Assembly. I think he was there in

22 the capacity of an SDS member.

23 Q. And do you recall what this discussion about the division was?

24 What was supposed to be done? How was a division supposed to occur?

25 A. After this rally, and even before, photocopies began to appear

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Page 410

1 around town, depicting the inner part of town. And what I saw on these

2 maps, and also from what I heard, the Serbs were asking for the

3 south-eastern part of the town and a larger part of the centre of town,

4 which, by my estimate, would constitute about two-thirds of it. Mainly,

5 they were asking for the industrial zone and a larger part of the centre

6 of town.

7 Q. And this was a physical separation with the different ethnic

8 groups living in different parts of town?

9 A. The line -- there was probably a physical line. The fact that I

10 remained on the other side of that line. I don't know what else it could

11 be.

12 Q. And at this time, how were the people living in Brcko? Did each

13 group live in a separate part of town or were they intermixed?

14 A. We were always intermixed. This line of separation would actually

15 divide many families. Some would remain on one side, and the others on

16 the other side. So I don't know what to tell you to that question.

17 Q. And if you know, sir: In Brcko town itself, what were the

18 relative proportions of the three ethnic groups? Which one had the most

19 and which had the least?

20 A. The most numerous were Muslims in the town itself, and then there

21 were Serbs, and then Croats, to a somewhat lesser percentage. But from

22 what I know, I think that the Serbs did not constitute a majority in any

23 of the local communities except for Grcica and Potocari. These are the

24 town local communes. But in the other communes, I think that most

25 probably the Muslims constituted the majority.

Page 411

1 Q. I believe you said that meeting was in about mid-April. I want to

2 take you to the end of April 1992. Did anything unusual happen in Brcko

3 town on the 30th of April?

4 A. Yes. In the morning of the 30th of April - it was 4.30 in the

5 morning, to be precise - I was woken up by two powerful explosions. I

6 have a wife and a child, so we got up. One window was broken on my

7 building, actually, in my apartment, and then a couple of other windows

8 were also broken on the other side. In the beginning, we didn't know what

9 had caused the explosion, but later the telephones were working. We

10 called one another, and later on we found out that two bridges were blown

11 up across the Sava River. One of them was a railway bridge and the other

12 was a bridge for regular passenger and vehicle traffic.

13 Q. Do you recall about what time of day this was?

14 A. I told you this was in the morning, at 4.30 in the morning.

15 Q. And the River Sava, what was on the other side of the River Sava

16 from Brcko?

17 A. The Republic of Croatia.

18 Q. Were there any other bridges in Brcko besides the railway bridge

19 and the other bridge you mentioned?

20 A. There were two other bridges, but they go across the Brka River.

21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, at this time I'd like to show the

22 witness a photograph, if I may.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Hannis.

24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. May we show the witness Exhibit 38.061.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, I do understand that finally the Registry

Page 412

1 would like to give the final numbers to the exhibit. So Madam Registrar

2 will then give the number by putting to you what number it finally will

3 be.

4 Madam Registrar, this will be --

5 THE REGISTRAR: The map of BiH with Brcko highlighted, bearing ERN

6 number 04021847 will be Prosecution Exhibit number P1. And the next

7 exhibit to be tendered will be Prosecution Exhibit number P2.

8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you have a photo on the screen before you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if you recognise that, tell the Judges what that is.

12 A. This is the bridge over the Sava River, in Brcko.

13 Q. And does that picture depict the portion of the bridge that had

14 fallen in the river as a result of the explosion?

15 A. I was here, at that place where that section is missing, on that

16 day. Yes, that is that section of the bridge.

17 Q. Is that how it looked that day when you saw it?

18 A. Exactly like this.

19 Q. Back up a second. After you heard the explosion, did you go to

20 investigate?

21 A. I didn't go there. I got up, and then at about 6.30 I had to go

22 to work, because I have to go to work at 7.00 every morning. So I started

23 walking from my house to the electric company, and when I got there to the

24 Elektrodistribucija, our director said we could return home. So I

25 returned home and then I told my wife I'm going to see the bridge over the

Page 413

1 Sava, because I knew that people were talking that it had been blown up.

2 So it was maybe about 9.30 when I came to look at the bridge.

3 Q. And what did you see when you got down by the bridge?

4 A. In the very centre of town, just before the police station, I saw

5 a couple of human corpses on the sidewalk. There's a small park just

6 opposite from the SUP building, actually, and somebody took a door, a door

7 from an apartment, and covered the lower part of a male corpse, the part

8 where the legs and the lower stomach should be. Later, I passed behind

9 the Posavina Hotel and saw parts of a child's legs.

10 I reached the bridge. There were other people there. There were

11 also police officers from the Brcko police station. There were also some

12 of my acquaintances there. And maybe people began to talk there, to

13 comment, who did it, what they did. All the police officers were lost.

14 They didn't even know what to do there, should they secure the site or

15 not.

16 After about half an hour, a vehicle of the JNA appeared with about

17 eight to ten people in the trailer. It was a pinzgauer, a larger one.

18 All the men were armed in camouflage uniforms with helmets on their heads,

19 and one of them jumped out from the vehicle and started to talk to one of

20 the police officers, that they should clear the site and that there was

21 some kind of commission coming there. Then the soldiers all got back into

22 the vehicle and continued on their way to another part of the town of

23 Brcko.

24 I stayed there for about another half an hour. People continued

25 to comment about what had happened. And then I went back to my apartment.

Page 414

1 That's all.

2 Q. I'm sorry, Your Honour. May I inquire as to when we would break?

3 JUDGE ORIE: It was my intention to break after one hour and a

4 half, so that would be in one or two minutes. If this would be a suitable

5 moment, we could --

6 MR. HANNIS: This would be convenient, yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if first the witness would be escorted

8 out of the courtroom. We have a break, Mr. Gasi. And then that I just

9 for one minute put my schedules on the table so that you could respond to

10 that.

11 You're excused. We'll resume in 20 minutes. Yes.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 JUDGE ORIE: I had in mind for the afternoon sessions, when we

14 start at a quarter past 2.00, to have the first break at a quarter to

15 4.00, a 20-minute break. So we'd start at five minutes past 4.00, until

16 5.30, which would bring us another one hour and 25 minutes, then have

17 another break of 20 minutes until 10 minutes to 6.00 and then continue

18 from 10 minutes to 6.00 to 7.00. If this schedule would, either from the

19 parties or from any of those assisting us just outside the courtroom,

20 would -- if there would be any opposition to it, I'd like to hear that.

21 We'll adjourn until five minutes past 4.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, thank you. I requested if we could have

25 one minute with you before we have the witness come in.

Page 415

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

2 MR. HANNIS: Regarding Mr. Gasi, in preparation for his testimony

3 today, we have been waiting clearance from a Rule 70 provider concerning

4 two statements that he made some time ago, and our request has been

5 outstanding since at least May of last year. Mr. Gasi testified in the

6 Milosevic case in September of 2003. They also were waiting the same

7 clearance from the same provider, but he was allowed to testify without

8 that clearance. I understand from the Milosevic team that yesterday they

9 received a written authorisation to provide those Rule 70 materials in

10 that case, but that case only. I spoke with the representative from the

11 provider in question, who advised me that it was the intention that the

12 clearance would provide -- would cover this case and all other cases as

13 well.

14 However, because that was not put in writing, he requested that I

15 not make the disclosure yet until he can either get it in writing or get

16 an oral confirmation. I mentioned this to Mr. Stewart before we started

17 today but I wanted to bring it to the Court's attention that we still have

18 this. We have reviewed it and in our estimation it does not contain any

19 strictly Rule 68 material, but it is in the nature of a Rule 66 statement,

20 although not signed by the witness, it's more the report of an interview,

21 but in our view it is in the nature of a Rule 66 statement, and we do want

22 to provide it as soon as we receive clearance.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If clearance has not been asked in respect of

24 this case, then the only thing I could establish at this moment is that it

25 would have been better to have asked it in writing.

Page 416

1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We requested it in May, and then

2 again when Milosevic was requesting the same, we asked that if we could be

3 included in that same clearance.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That was in writing?

5 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's good to be informed about it, but it

7 doesn't change the present situation, as far as I understand.

8 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Gasi back into the

9 courtroom.

10 I've got one question for you in between, Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: Yes, sir.

12 JUDGE ORIE: On my witness summary, it's indicated that the

13 estimated duration would be three hours, whereas I find in my most recent

14 list four hours. Is there anything added to what was in the summary we

15 received, that's the summary dated the 2nd of May, 2002?

16 MR. HANNIS: I think the difference is, Your Honour, when we

17 reduced our number of viva voce witnesses from a different number and we

18 moved some people from one municipality to another, we made a decision to

19 try and do more through him live because we had dropped some other witness

20 to a 92 bis status.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I would have expected then a summary adapted to that

22 as well. But as it is now, please proceed.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 [The witness entered court]


Page 417

1 Q. Mr. Gasi, when we broke, I think you had told us that after you

2 had gone down to look at the damage at the bridge, you returned home. And

3 what did you do when you got there? Did you make any arrangements with

4 your family?

5 A. When I returned home from the bridge, I found a neighbour in my

6 apartment, a woman, who lives in the same building, in the apartment below

7 ours.

8 Q. And what is her ethnicity?

9 A. She is a Serb.

10 Q. Did she give you any advice about what you should do?

11 A. My wife had already talked to her. My wife, Jasminka asked me why

12 do we have to leave Brcko. The lady said, "You see the war has already

13 begun. You cannot stay here any longer. They will come from Bijeljina

14 and they will transport you to Serbia. You'd better leave." [In English]

15 I have a problem with ...

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There seems to be a technical problem with the

17 earphones.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's the same. So it's not a matter of the

19 headphones. I must say, I also hear some rumble on the earphones which

20 might be the same, but stronger for the witness.

21 Mr. Gasi, is it any better or is it still the same? It's still

22 the same.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, but there is some

24 noise in my headphones that I hear at the same time.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I have the same, and I notice that it

Page 418

1 depends on who speaks, what microphones are open. Is it better now? Yes.

2 So it must have been one of your own microphones. But of course you

3 can't -- it's not you to be blamed for it.

4 If the matter has been solved, then please proceed, Mr. Hannis.


6 Q. Sir, if you can look at the screen. Did you have a chance to

7 finish your last answer? You said your neighbour advised that you should

8 leave. Was that the end of your answer?

9 A. Jasminka insisted, and kept on asking: "Why do we have to leave?

10 Why should I leave? I don't understand."

11 Q. But was there any further explanation from your Serb neighbour?

12 A. Yes. She said: "Jasminka, war has started in Brcko. You would

13 all be better off by leaving the town." I accepted that. I decided to

14 accept her husband's offer to take us out of town.

15 Q. And did you travel with her husband and take your wife and child

16 out of Brcko?

17 A. Yes. He drove my car. I sat next to him, and Jasminka was in the

18 back. Before that, I called a friend of mine in Belgrade and arranged for

19 him to meet us in Bijeljina. We heard that it would not be possible for

20 us to cross the bridge on the Drina River, because the bridge was blocked.

21 Q. Did you have to travel through any checkpoints on your way from

22 Brcko to Bijeljina?

23 A. Yes. From my apartment, on the road towards Elektrodistribucija,

24 and on the road towards Bijeljina, the army had set up a mixed checkpoint,

25 together with -- together with some people who wore camouflage uniforms.

Page 419

1 There were also people in camouflage uniforms who differed from the JNA

2 uniforms. Those camouflage uniforms were blue, different shades of blue,

3 and there were also two men from the Red Beret units. They checked our

4 IDs. Actually, they checked his ID and then they concluded that he was a

5 Serb and they told us that we were free to proceed, that we were free to

6 pass that checkpoint.

7 Q. And when you say "a mixed checkpoint," are you referring to the

8 ethnicities of the people in the checkpoint or to the units that they were

9 with?

10 A. I'm referring to different uniforms that I could see there. There

11 were some people wearing olive-drab uniforms, some wore helmets on their

12 heads. Two had red berets on their heads. And there were two more men in

13 blue camouflage uniforms that I never saw before. And on their blue

14 berets, there was a flag of the Republic of Serbia.

15 Q. Do you know what the ethnicity of all these individuals was?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. They didn't introduce

17 themselves to me.

18 Q. Did you manage to get to Bijeljina and make arrangements for your

19 wife and child to join your friend and travel to Belgrade?

20 A. Yes. We went to Bijeljina, and I met my friend a couple of hours

21 later. He had come from Belgrade in his own car. He had had some

22 problems at the Drina bridge. And I also met another friend from the

23 kayak team of Yugoslavia. He also wore a soldier's uniform. And he told

24 me not to go back to Brcko. I didn't listen to his advice. I went back.

25 Q. Why did you return to Brcko?

Page 420

1 A. I probably believed that everything would be normal, as it was

2 before. I still held my employment there, so that was probably another

3 motive. I believe I had normal reasons to go back. It's very hard for me

4 to explain why I went back, but I did. I went back.

5 Q. While you were in Bijeljina, did you notice anything about what

6 military units, if any, were present in town?

7 A. There were none in Bijeljina, but on the road from Brcko to

8 Bijeljina, on the left side of the road, there were JNA vehicles parked.

9 There were tanks. There were people-carriers, there were infantry

10 vehicles. There were soldiers. They were just standing there. They were

11 not moving, but they were all turned towards Brcko. This column was a

12 couple of kilometres long, according to my estimate. In the town of

13 Bijeljina, I didn't see any troops. There were police wearing blue

14 uniforms. Some wore camouflage uniforms. We were not stopped. I didn't

15 have any problems entering Bijeljina or returning to Brcko, for that

16 matter.

17 Q. What did you do when you returned to Brcko? Where did you stay?

18 A. I stayed in my apartment.

19 Q. The day after the explosion at the bridge, were there any public

20 announcements about what was happening in Brcko?

21 A. I believe that it was on the 1st of May when the local Brcko TV

22 aired a programme, and Mustafa Ramic, the president of the Municipal

23 Assembly, appeared on the screen. And also I believe that

24 Captain Petrovic, who introduced himself as somebody from the local

25 barracks, the security officer. Mustafa Ramic said in his interview that

Page 421

1 they had agreed at the level of the municipality, with the people from the

2 Brcko barracks, that the army would be given a mandate to take over the

3 civilian life in town in the period of the next 48 hours, because some

4 rumours had started circulating in town about paramilitaries from Serbia

5 who had arrived in town. So the army accepted to control the civilian

6 life in town. And that programme was then interrupted, and I don't know

7 what happened next.

8 Later on, Radio Brcko also repeated something along these same

9 lines.

10 Q. A couple days after this broadcast, did you observe any fighting

11 or any military activity in Brcko?

12 A. Maybe on the 2nd or on the 3rd of May. I was in front of my

13 building. It was around 10.00 in the morning. From the direction of

14 south-east, two jet planes flew over Brcko. They were JNA jets. And they

15 returned a couple of minutes later from the other direction. Again, they

16 flew over the town. And all of a sudden we could hear powerful explosions

17 coming from the direction where they had flown off to. Whether they

18 bombarded or not, I don't know. I suppose so. I didn't see it. I only

19 saw them when they were flying over Brcko and when they were returning

20 from that direction.

21 Q. And the sound of explosions came from the direction in which you

22 had seen them initially fly to and then return from?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. And what ethnic group lived in that part of Brcko?

25 A. This is Mujkici local commune, and then Gluhakovac and then some

Page 422

1 Croat villages. I suppose that if not all, then 90 per cent of the people

2 were Muslims and Croats. There were maybe some Serbs, but very few Serbs

3 who lived on that stretch.

4 Q. Now, do you recall a day when you were eventually arrested in

5 Brcko? Do you recall what day that was, approximately?

6 A. I have repeated it many times: 27 May 1992.

7 Q. And between the 1st of May, when you returned --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.


10 Q. Between the 30th April, when the bridge blew, and the 27th of May,

11 when you were arrested, what were you doing in Brcko?

12 A. I spent most of the time in my apartment. Several times I crossed

13 the River Brka in order to visit my in-laws. And the last time I visited

14 them was on the 3rd of May, in the morning. I returned to my apartment

15 sometime around the 6th or the 7th of May, together with a neighbour of

16 mine from my building, I went to the centre of the town. I went to the

17 market -- where the marketplace used to be.

18 Q. And what is that area of town called?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


21 Q. And what is that area of town called, please?

22 A. Before the war, it was Brace Cuskica Street, across the road from

23 the marketplace there was an arts and crafts centre that some people refer

24 to as Stari Grad, the Old Town.

25 Q. Did anything unusual happen that morning at Stari Grad?

Page 423

1 A. Shooting started. As we entered this area and came into the

2 market area, all of a sudden shooting started behind our backs. I

3 couldn't see what was going on, but there were bursts of fire. And the

4 lady who was with me said we should hide. A woman whom she knew started

5 calling to us from a nearby building and told us to come upstairs to her

6 apartment. We did that. As we entered the apartment, I could see the

7 Bimeks butcher shop below her window. The drapes were drawn, and as we

8 were sitting in the apartment I could hear some more shots. I approached

9 the window. I looked through the window. I pulled the curtains. And

10 then I saw people being executed.

11 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute. Would you tell us first:

12 What was the first group of people you saw being executed? Where was that

13 happening?

14 A. Across the road from that window where I was, there was a group --

15 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues]... my learned friend

16 to be a little bit more careful because the witness said he saw people

17 being executed and then Mr. Hannis said: "What was the first group of

18 people you saw being executed?" The witness didn't refer to a number of

19 different groups. He simply referred in very general terms to people

20 being executed. So I'd invite my learned friend to be a little bit more

21 careful not to lead the witness into that sort of area.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Your response, Mr. Hannis.

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I hear my learned friend and I will try

24 to take care in that regard.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You do agree more or less to what he said?

Page 424

1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


4 Q. Mr. Gasi, could you tell us what was the first thing you saw with

5 regard to people being executed? Where was that happening?

6 A. In front of the window where I was standing, across the road, on a

7 plateau, behind the coffee bars and restaurants which were right in front

8 of me. On my left-hand side, along the wall, a policeman wearing a blue

9 uniform approached the people who were standing facing the wall of that

10 building, and he shot in their heads, or in their backs. I can't

11 remember. There were three such shootings, and I saw all three of them.

12 I tried to describe all of them in detail in my statement.

13 Q. And were the three victims men or women? If you can tell.

14 A. I'm a hundred per cent sure about the three. They were all men.

15 Q. And what were they wearing? Civilian clothing or military?

16 A. They were all civilians.

17 Q. And could you describe the policeman? Was there only one? And if

18 so, what was he or she wearing?

19 A. The policeman who shot in their backs, he wore a blue shirt with

20 short sleeves, of the kind that police used to wear before the war. And

21 he also had a pistol and blue trousers. And the others who were also

22 shooting at people, they all war camouflage JNA uniforms with balaclavas,

23 black balaclavas over their heads. One of them who may have been their

24 commander shouted at them, and he would say: Thirty of them for one of

25 mine.

Page 425

1 Q. Where were the men in camouflage uniforms standing in relation to

2 where you saw the policeman shooting the three people?

3 A. They were about 50 metres away from him, as the crow flies. They

4 were in this area of this artisan centre, or the Old Town.

5 Q. And approximately how many of them were there?

6 A. There were five to six in this first group, and then up at the

7 plateau there were another four to five.

8 Q. And the first group of five or six, are you talking about the

9 soldiers or victims?

10 A. The people who were getting killed were civilians, the victims;

11 and the people who actually did the firing, they were wearing camouflage

12 uniforms and had balaclavas on their heads.

13 Q. And can you explain for the Court how many civilians were being

14 shot by men in JNA uniforms with balaclavas, and how many soldiers there

15 were in that group?

16 A. There were about ten, in two groups. And in those two groups,

17 they killed about 10 to 12 people, plus those 3 men who were killed by

18 this police officer in uniform.

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, could we show the witness next exhibit,

20 P3.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hear that you have taken over more or less

22 the numbering from the registrar.

23 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. We received copies of the documents to be

25 tendered, especially the photographs, with a, I would say, an exhibit

Page 426

1 number on it, attributed to that document by the Prosecution. And that's

2 also what you mentioned. If you mention that number, we know exactly what

3 exhibit we are dealing with. So that would be, I take it, then, that

4 you'd like to show to the witness Exhibit 38078. Which would then, as the

5 registrar will certainly confirm us, will be P3. Yes.

6 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


9 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you recognise what that's a photograph of?

10 A. It's a part of Brcko.

11 Q. And does that depict the area in which the shootings you're

12 describing occurred?

13 A. Yes, that's correct. It depicts the building I was in. And this

14 arts and crafts Stari Grad centre is across from that building I was in.

15 And you can also see the SUP building. That's the new building. You can

16 see it. It's painted white. You can see the roof. And then from that

17 building, across from there, there's a little park and there's a hotel

18 there. This is the SUP building, this is the park. This is the

19 Hotel Posavina building. You just indicated it. Now if you go down a bit

20 with the arrow, a bit lower, still lower, this is the building I was in.

21 This is the place where these five or six people were executed. And then

22 behind that, over those roofs, there's a plateau and another four to five

23 people were executed there. If you take the arrow straight up -- a little

24 bit lower. A little bit lower, to the right. Yes. Yes. A little bit

25 up, please. A little bit up. And then again right, and lower, lower, all

Page 427

1 the way down. Yes. That building right there is where all three men were

2 told to face the wall, and that's where they were shot in the back.

3 Q. By whom were those three men shot, again?

4 A. The police officer in the police uniform in the short-sleeved

5 shirt, the blue police shirt and blue pants that he was wearing.

6 Q. And the SUP building, what does SUP stand for?

7 A. Station, the station for the police. The Secretariat for Internal

8 Affairs of Brcko, to be precise. If you take the arrow straight up, you

9 will see the SUP building.

10 Q. And for the record, sir, is that the white building near the

11 centre of the photograph, at the top?

12 A. Yes, that's the building.

13 Q. What floor were you observing this from, the apartment of the

14 friend of the woman that you were with?

15 A. I told you: Just below the building, or in the building, there's

16 this Bimeks shop. So it's either on the first or the second floor. But

17 in any case, it's just above this Bimeks shop, and there are no other

18 floors except for that floor.

19 Q. And can you tell the Judges what the topography of the land is in

20 that area; that is, is it flat or is there a slope in one direction or

21 another?

22 A. When you go from -- judging -- going by the picture, when you go

23 from the Posavina Hotel, the whole road starts to slope downwards towards

24 the Brka River. More or less, the place where I was was in the middle of

25 this downward slope. Before the war, the street was called Brace Cuskic.

Page 428

1 I don't know what it's called now.

2 Q. And from your position in that apartment, were you able to see

3 over the buildings across the street to the location you described where

4 the policeman was shooting three people?

5 A. Yes, you can be sure that I did, very well.

6 Q. And likewise, the two groups of soldiers shooting people?

7 A. They were the closest to me.

8 Q. And the victims that were being shot by the soldiers, how were

9 they dressed? Were they in military clothing or civilian clothing?

10 A. All civilians.

11 Q. Could you see whether any of the victims had any weapons?

12 A. I didn't see any.

13 MR. HANNIS: May we show the witness the -- well, may we have a

14 number for the next exhibit, and this would be our number 38.105.

15 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be Prosecution Exhibit number

16 P4.

17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you recognise what that's a photograph of?

19 A. Yes, I recognise it. You can see a part of the Posavina Hotel,

20 down there on the right side. And then if you look, you can see the road

21 sloping downwards, as I explained. On the left side, you can see the

22 beginning of these small shops which were in the arts and crafts centre in

23 the Stari Grad, the cafes, little shops, small restaurants.

24 Q. And can you tell us what that building is on the left side of the

25 photograph, the big building there?

Page 429

1 A. Before the war, there was a casino there. I think it was called

2 the Knutsen [phoen] Casino, in that building. Just in front of the casino

3 was the building of the local HDZ, and also the Oslobodjenje cinema in

4 that same building. So it was a little bit more to the left from this

5 shop window that you can see in the photograph. There was also a

6 hairdressing salon there, a small one. I think that perhaps this is the

7 hairdressing salon. And then the entrance to the casino was just in front

8 of it. And also, that's where the HDZ offices were.

9 Q. And the shooting of three people by the policeman that you

10 described earlier, can you tell us where that would have taken place on

11 this photograph, if it's in this area?

12 A. Yes. It was nearby. If we were now to go around the corner from

13 the shop window, there is a path leading along a wall towards the

14 Brka River, and that's where the incident took place, a little bit more

15 when you go down there inside, on the left side.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. HANNIS: May we have the next exhibit number for Photograph

18 38.106.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P5.


21 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you tell the Court what is depicted in this

22 photograph?

23 A. You can see this street now that you asked me about just before,

24 and you can see the exact place where this policeman killed those three

25 people. I don't know whether they died on the spot, but in any case, I

Page 430

1 did see them fall.

2 Q. And is the Knutsen casino that you mentioned before shown on this

3 photograph?

4 A. You can't see it right now because the image has shifted. Now

5 we're looking at this road that leads between the building where the

6 Knutsen casino was. This road, if you followed it all the way down, there

7 is a cement wall, and there's -- at the end of it there is access which

8 would take you down to the Brka River. But you can't see it. But that's

9 it.

10 MR. HANNIS: And may we show the witness the next photograph and

11 give it the next number. This would be 38.084 in our numbering.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P6.


14 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you recognise what area this photograph is taken in?

15 A. Yes. It was taken on the exact spot that we saw just before, but

16 it's been probably taken from a different angle. But this is the same

17 place that I was describing earlier.

18 Q. And is the uniform that the man with the gun is wearing similar to

19 the uniform you described the shooter wearing that day?

20 A. Exactly the same, yes.

21 MR. HANNIS: And may we show the witness the next exhibit, 38.086.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P7.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Gasi, again, is this the street that you described running

25 next to the side of the Knutsen casino, where you saw the shooting of the

Page 431

1 three victims by someone in a police uniform?

2 A. Yes. You see the garbage container on it at the end of the

3 street, and then behind the container there's a cement wall which

4 separates the street from the Brka River. The Brka River is a bit lower

5 down, so you can't see it, but that is that precise spot.

6 Q. And finally, one more in this series, 38.089.

7 MR. HANNIS: May we give it the next number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P8.


10 Q. And again, Mr. Gasi, this is -- is this the -- sort of at the end

11 of the street that you've described earlier, as running back toward the

12 Brka River?

13 A. Not at the end and not in the middle of the street. It's sort of

14 towards or near the middle of the street.

15 Q. And where along the street were the three men shot when you saw

16 this event on about May 7th?

17 A. This man on the right side who is shooting, from where he is

18 standing, if you look, there is a window to the left with bars on it.

19 That's where he made them face the wall, and that's where he shot them in

20 the back, exactly there.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. HANNIS: We don't need that one any more.

23 Q. Mr. Gasi, what did you do after you saw these events occurring

24 outside your friend's friend's apartment?

25 A. I was there until maybe 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening. Then the

Page 432

1 lady who was with me, from my building, managed to call a friend of hers,

2 who came and collected the two of us from the apartment. We were not able

3 to move around freely. She was afraid, because a curfew was imposed. I

4 think it went into effect after 8.00. So nobody should have been on the

5 streets of Brcko after 8.00. So I think her friend appeared a little bit

6 before then, or perhaps at 8.00; I can't remember. But it was already

7 beginning to get dark. And he brought us back to my building, and we

8 didn't really leave the building any more, until the people from

9 Elektro-Brcko came.

10 Q. And how far from the police station were these places where the

11 executions took place? Approximately.

12 A. About 50 metres or 70 metres, to be more precise. It's about that

13 distance.

14 Q. Were you still going to work any time between the 30th April and

15 the time you were arrested on the 27th of May?

16 A. I told you before: I was in the apartment until the 9th or the

17 10th of May. I can't remember exactly. Anyway, on that morning, the

18 people from Elektro-Brcko came and they took me in their vehicles. So

19 then from the 9th or the 10th of May, I was in Elektro-Brcko all the time,

20 and I also worked around town. I moved around in the Elektrodistribucija

21 vehicles, until they came and arrested me on the 27th of May.

22 Q. And between the 9th or 10th and the 27th of May, were you also

23 sleeping at your workplace at Elektro-Brcko?

24 A. Yes. I was sleeping and eating. I slept in the technical goods

25 warehouse with the other electricians who were there.

Page 433

1 Q. And why were you doing that? Why were you sleeping at your

2 workplace?

3 A. The director told us that this was a war labour assignment and you

4 had to be there 24 hours. You had to be available. They had to know

5 where you were at all times, for as long as these extraordinary measures

6 were in effect.

7 Q. And during that time before your arrest, did you, in the course of

8 going out and working around town, did you see any dead bodies in Brcko

9 town?

10 A. On the 12th of May, 1992, we left the Elektrodistribucija compound

11 and started driving towards the town centre. Across the road from the

12 Jelenka Vockic elementary school, there was a military police checkpoint.

13 They stopped us. And as they explained to one of the Serb electricians

14 who was driving us, they had to wait to receive permission to pass from

15 somebody from the JNA garrison. That's what they told us.

16 And then, after about half an hour or so, a vehicle appeared which

17 used to drive the garrison commander around before the war, and in the

18 vehicle was captain first class. I think he was in the reserves, but I

19 know him as well. Captain Mitric, Slobodan Mitric. A soldier was driving

20 him. When he turned up at the checkpoint, they talked to him. I saw that

21 from the car. Then they came up to the Serb who was driving us and said

22 that we can continue straight ahead towards the Galeb Hotel. And when we

23 came near the Galeb Hotel, there is a parking space in front of the Galeb

24 Hotel and the department store. We were supposed to turn left there and

25 pass through the centre of town, but the man who was driving the car, he

Page 434

1 was -- on the right-hand side of this parking, there were garbage

2 containers, and I could see parts of human bodies showing outside of these

3 containers, legs and arms. And next to the containers there were three or

4 four corpses lying there, in civilian clothes.

5 In front of the Galeb Hotel, there were people sitting in

6 olive-drab camouflage uniforms. They were sitting in front of the hotel

7 on chairs which had probably been taken outside from the restaurant. So

8 when we made the left turn, that's the image that stuck to my mind. After

9 that, we went in the direction of the medical centre, in order to repair

10 whatever we were supposed to repair.

11 Q. And, Mr. Gasi, can you tell the Court how big that garbage

12 container was from which you saw body parts sticking out?

13 A. That's where the containers are. Their volume is three, four, or

14 a maximum of five cubic metres of garbage. And then there are these local

15 vehicles, the sanitation company vehicles, which can pick up the container

16 and tip the garbage into the vehicle that collects the garbage. I think

17 to this very day you can find such containers around the town of Brcko.

18 Q. And how far away were the men in uniform from the garbage

19 containers and the bodies that you saw.

20 A. About 20 metres.

21 MR. HANNIS: And may we have the next exhibit number for

22 Photograph 38.059 and show it to the witness, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P9.


25 Q. Mr. Gasi, is the area that you've been talking about shown in the

Page 435

1 photograph on the screen before you?

2 A. Here you can see the culture hall, and you can see the Partizan

3 building, and also you can see one part of the Galeb Hotel. Here, where

4 the arrow is now, this is not the parking. The parking is a bit lower, in

5 front of the Galeb Hotel, but it is not depicted in this photo. This

6 parking is in front of the culture home. If you were to move the arrow

7 further down, there is another parking lot in front of the Galeb Hotel.

8 But it is not depicted in the photo. Here you can see just one part of

9 the Galeb Hotel, the Partizan sports hall, and the culture hall. This is

10 the Partizan sports hall. If you move to the right now, that's the

11 culture hall. This is the culture hall. You're showing it now. You are

12 pointing at it now.

13 Q. And the white building in the lower right corner of the

14 photograph, what building is that?

15 A. That's the Galeb Hotel. I don't know what it's called now, but

16 before the war it used to be Galeb.

17 Q. And the Partizan sports hall is the building just above that, as

18 you're following along the street?

19 A. Yes, you're right there. That is the building that you're now

20 showing.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Gasi, during your work assignment between the

22 10th and 27th of May, do you recall an occasion when you were out working

23 on top of a very tall pole and saw something unusual in a field near the

24 Bimeks factory or farm?

25 A. It was not just a pole; it was a transformer pole which was about

Page 436

1 20 metres high. On one occasion, we were supposed to replace the

2 insulator tapes on those poles. And this is in the middle of the army

3 shooting range. There is also a small stream close to that transformer

4 pole that we were supposed to climb. And I was one of those who were

5 selected to climb that transformer pole. I saw a white Bimeks TAM, lorry,

6 which was parked in front of a hole. They were unloading human corpses

7 and throwing them into that hole.

8 Q. Can you tell us, first of all, what Bimeks was in Brcko at that

9 time?

10 A. Bimeks was a slaughterhouse, and also a processing plant for meat,

11 for the slaughtered pigs and cows. They would also distribute all those

12 meat products, not only in Brcko, but all over Bosnia and all over

13 Yugoslavia.

14 Q. And how far away was this taking place from where you were on the

15 pole? Approximately how far?

16 A. Between 100 and 150 metres, tops.

17 Q. From that distance, were you able to tell what kind of clothing

18 the bodies had?

19 A. Yes. I could see that.

20 Q. And what was that?

21 A. They all wore civilian clothes.

22 Q. And could you see what kind of clothing the men who were taking

23 the bodies out of the truck and putting into the hole, what kind of

24 clothing were they wearing?

25 A. Camouflage uniforms that belonged to the JNA. They were

Page 437

1 olive-drab camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. Do you recall how many men were taking the bodies out?

3 A. I saw two.

4 Q. And were there any other people around besides the two men

5 unloading the truck?

6 A. I didn't see anybody else.

7 Q. Were there any other vehicles or equipment around the hole?

8 A. There was a construction machine, a bulldozer, as they call it.

9 MR. HANNIS: Now I would like to have the next photograph given a

10 number, please. It's our 38.081.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P10.


13 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you recognise the area where that photograph is

14 taken of?

15 A. Yes, I recognise it. I know exactly where this is.

16 Q. Can you tell the Judges where that is?

17 A. As you're walking from Elektrodistribucija, and when you go toward

18 Bijeljina, there is a gas station called Mistrafovici there. Instead of

19 going right, you turn right [as interpreted] towards the pig and the

20 cattle farm. And as you drive along some 300 metres further on, there's a

21 fence, which fenced off a company that was supposed to move from that

22 area. And this was all within the compound of the JNA shooting range.

23 Now, this place that we are looking at is immediately behind that fence.

24 Q. Is this hole in the location that you've described seen from the

25 pole, or is this a different location?

Page 438

1 A. This is not that place. That place was some hundred metres away

2 from the place depicted in this photo.

3 Q. Can you tell the Judges how you're able to tell the difference?

4 A. I already saw these photos, and if you look to the left from this

5 excavator you can see a lamp and a fence, and the only place you could

6 find this type of fence and this type of lamppost was Brcko, and that's

7 how I recognised that this was the JNA shooting range, because this is the

8 only place where you can -- you could find this type of fence and this

9 type of lamppost and lamp. I already saw this photo somewhat enlarged. I

10 don't know whether it was during my interview when I gave the statement,

11 or maybe here. In any case, I saw this photo a bit enlarged, maybe from a

12 different angle, so I could see it better.

13 Q. And in this photo, are you able to see a part of the Bimeks truck

14 that you're describing, or one that looks like the truck you were

15 describing?

16 A. This is the same type of truck. In the right-hand side corner, a

17 white TAM, which bore the inscription "Bimeks" on it. That's exactly the

18 one.

19 MR. HANNIS: May we have the next exhibit number, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I ask you one thing? Could you

21 please invite the witness to perhaps a part of the photograph that was

22 just enlarged, where the lamppost was, to indicate where he sees the

23 fence. Because I have some difficulties in following.


25 Q. Mr. Gasi --

Page 439

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you'll enlarge that part of the photograph.

2 MR. HANNIS: We'll try and do that, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Gasi, did you hear that, and can you indicate where the fence

4 is in the photograph?

5 A. Yes. If you look closer at this photo, you will see a fence. It

6 is a bit overgrown, but there is a fence. You can see it. And maybe at a

7 distance of 100 or 200 metres, at every 100 or 200 metres, there is one

8 lamp. It was my company that installed these lamps. Now you are showing

9 the fence. This is the fence that I was referring to.

10 Q. And can you tell us what kind of fence that is? Is it a wood

11 fence? Is it a wire fence?

12 A. It was a metal fence which was made to order. I believe that

13 there is a concrete base on which this metal fence was mounted and put

14 together. And every 100 or 200 metres there is a lamp. These lamps are

15 integral parts of this fence.

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we have a hard copy. I don't know if

17 that is easier to see from than on the screen.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The registrar was so kind to provide the hard

19 copy, and we have looked at it, and there would be no need just -- if we

20 want to look at a hard copy, we'll ask the registrar. That will save us

21 copying again three times in colour the original exhibit. Please proceed.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. And may the next exhibit be

23 given the next number, please, and shown to the witness.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P10, Prosecution reference 38.082.

25 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. Would that be 11?

Page 440

1 THE REGISTRAR: P11. I apologise.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you see this photograph? And tell us what that is.

4 A. It's the same place. Everything is the same. Maybe the angle is

5 different; however, the place is the same.

6 Q. Can you see the fence better in this photograph?

7 A. Yes. I could see it well in the previous one, but you can also

8 see it in this photo. Yes, this is it.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. HANNIS: Now we can take that away, and I want to move on to

11 another area.

12 Q. Mr. Gasi, you've told us before you were arrested on the 27th of

13 May, 1992. Can you tell us where that happened and who arrested you?

14 A. On the 27th of May, in the morning, around 9.00 in the morning, a

15 red van stopped in front of the Elektrodistribucija gate. Two police

16 officers came out of the van. I knew both of them. They wore police

17 uniforms. One of them was Dragan Pantelic, the other one was

18 Radivoje Knezevic. They entered the area where the director slept and

19 then they approached me. They called me by my name and then they told me

20 that I was to go with them. The director asked them where they were

21 taking me. They answered: This is none of your business. If anybody

22 asks, just tell them that the police had taken him away.

23 Then they pushed me into the back part of the van. They drove me

24 to the town, to the police station, to the so-called SUP.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 441

1 MR. HANNIS: May the witness be shown the next --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the Prosecution.

3 MR. HANNIS: My apologies. May the witness be shown the next

4 exhibit number. It would be our 38.095.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P12.


7 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you tell the Court what is in photograph P12.

8 A. That's the SUP, the police station in Brcko. It is the entrance.

9 What you are showing, all of it, that's the entrance.

10 Q. And how long were you kept at the police station after you were

11 taken there by those two men you named?

12 A. They pushed me into a room on the right-hand side. There was no

13 light. They just shoved me into that room. Later on I saw that there

14 were already two people in there, and I stayed there for maybe 40 minutes

15 or an hour. They didn't beat me. Nobody did anything to me. And later

16 on, they came to fetch me and they took me out of that room.

17 Q. Did you know the other two people that were in the room with you?

18 A. I knew them well. I didn't recognise them at first, but I did

19 know them.

20 Q. Without naming them, can you tell us their ethnic background?

21 A. One of them was a Muslim, and the other one was a mixed Serb who

22 was a bit of a local problem. He was a petty thief, a petty criminal.

23 They were both in that room. I had a quick chat with the two of them.

24 Q. And where were you taken when you were removed from the room, and

25 who took you?

Page 442

1 A. A local Serb whom I knew, wearing a JNA uniform without a hat on

2 his head, he came. He knocked on the door and he said: "Gasi come with

3 me." His name was Pera. That's what we called him. He held my ID card

4 in his hand. There was another man with him. He wore a camouflage

5 uniform. Judging by his accent, he was a Serb. And this guy says:

6 "Shall we tie him?" And the former one said: "No. He's a good man.

7 Don't do that."

8 Then I was put into a pick-up, and as we were leaving the SUP

9 building, I asked Pera: "Pera, what are you doing, and where are you

10 taking me?" And he said: "We're taking you to Luka, to the harbour."

11 And that's where they took me. This Pera, he had an automatic weapon.

12 Q. Do you know Pera's last name?

13 A. Maybe Bozic or something like that. I can't remember exactly.

14 But I know the guy. I know him well.

15 MR. HANNIS: May the witness be shown the next exhibit, and may it

16 be given the next number.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. HANNIS: May the witness be shown the next exhibit and may it

19 be given the next number in order, our 38.093.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P13.


22 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you tell us what this building is?

23 A. That's the Posavina Hotel building. And you can also see the

24 corner of the old municipality building. And this passage leads towards

25 the summer hall of the Radnik cinema. In any case, this is the Posavina

Page 443

1 Hotel building in Brcko.

2 Q. And where is that located in relation to the police station? How

3 far?

4 A. Fifty to seventy metres, according to my estimate. It may even be

5 a hundred. It really depends on the angle from which you are looking at

6 it.

7 MR. HANNIS: May we have the next number in order, for Photograph

8 38.072.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P14.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you tell the Court what that is a photograph of?

12 A. These are hangars, the hangars of the Brcko harbour on the

13 Sava River. Yes. These are the hangars. You're right there.

14 Q. And what was the name of this area?

15 A. Brcko had a harbour, Luka. Luka was the name of this area, which

16 means "harbour."

17 MR. HANNIS: May we have the next number in order for 38.083.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P15.


20 Q. Do you recognise that, sir?

21 A. Yes. This is the entrance to the Luka area.

22 Q. And how long did you stay at Luka after you were taken there on

23 the 27th of May?

24 A. Until the 7th of July, 1992, exactly.

25 MR. HANNIS: May we have the next number in sequence for 38.090.

Page 444

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P16.


3 Q. Please tell us, Mr. Gasi, what that's a picture of.

4 A. You are showing the hangars where I was. The first hangar was

5 empty when I arrived. I was a bit more to the right, in the second

6 hangar. Now, the first one that you showed just a little while ago was

7 totally empty. But I was in both of them, actually.

8 Q. And where were you first taken when you arrived at Luka?

9 A. Across the road from these hangars there's a building, a

10 prefabricated house which housed the offices for the admin. workers who

11 used to work in Luka before the war. A policeman from the Brcko police

12 station took me there, and this guy whose name was Pudic was waiting for

13 me there. He hit me with a pistol on the head, and they took me into the

14 first office on the right-hand side. As I entered the office, there were

15 four people there, plus Pudic, who was behind my back. He pushed me in.

16 I said: "Good morning." And one guy with a beard jumped to his feet.

17 And he was holding something like that fireman's hose. And he jumped on

18 his feet, wanted to hit me with that hose. But then he changed his mind,

19 and he says: "Can you greet me in the Serbian way?" And then I said:

20 "Yes, I can." And I answered: "God help you, brothers." And then he

21 said: "And same to you. Fuck you."

22 And then I sat on the bench, and one of them asked me: "Where

23 were you in 1982?" I didn't know why they were asking me that. On my

24 left-hand side in that same office where they were, there was a guy

25 sitting. He was a friend of mine from the kayak club. He was a JNA

Page 445

1 officer. He was an active-duty military man. He served in Split. He

2 also wore a uniform. He turned towards me and he told the others: "Don't

3 mistreat this man. I know him well. He is a native of Brcko. He's a

4 very well-known Yugoslav athlete."

5 When he told them that, then the others calmed down and one of

6 them said to Pudic: "Pudic, take him to the first hangar and don't touch

7 him there."

8 Then Pudic took me out of there. We entered the first hangar that

9 you see in front of you. It was empty. And as he put me in the hangar,

10 behind the door there was a chair and he told me: "Sit on the chair and

11 don't move." I sat in that chair, I waited, and some 40 minutes later

12 Pudic appeared again and told me: "Okay. Go to the other part of that

13 hangar."

14 These hangars have a partition, a high metal partition with a

15 door. The door was open and I entered the second part of the hangar. On

16 both sides of the hangar there were people lying on the concrete floor.

17 There were some people lying on cardboard. In any case, on both sides of

18 the hangar there were people prostrated on the ground.

19 Q. Let me stop you there, Mr. Gasi. You mentioned Pudic, who hit you

20 when you first arrived at the office. Do you know his first name?

21 A. I can't remember exactly, but I know that his name was Pudic. And

22 before the war, he was on the police force. And it seems to me that he is

23 still a member of that same police station. If I were to give you any

24 names, I may be wrong, but I know the man very well.

25 Q. Was he wearing any uniform on this occasion?

Page 446

1 A. He wore a police uniform. He didn't wear a JNA uniform. He wore

2 a blue police uniform, like the ones that they used to wear before the

3 war. That's the kind of uniform that he wore at that time.

4 Q. And can you tell us the name of the JNA officer that was in the

5 office?

6 A. I can, but if the Trial Chamber agrees, I'd rather not mention his

7 name. If the Trial Chamber insists, I can give you his name. I'd rather

8 not. I know the man very well. I know his name.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how important it is for the Prosecution

10 case to hear that name. If so --

11 MR. HANNIS: Could we go in private session just for the name,

12 Your Honour?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll go into private session, then.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 447












12 Page 447 redacted, private session














Page 448

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.

23 Mr. Gasi, we'll have a break for another 20 minutes. We'll

24 adjourn until 10 minutes to 6.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

Page 449

1 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gasi, during the break, some attention was paid

3 to the quality of the sound. If there's any further problem, please

4 indicate so. We might not be able to make it perfect, but if

5 it's -- please be aware of it's of our concern.

6 And for the parties, I would like to indicate to you that the last

7 five minutes of today's hearing, I'd like to spend some time on some

8 procedural issues, smaller ones.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 May we give the next exhibit, P17, if that's the next number, for

12 38.092.

13 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you tell us what photograph is on your screen now?

14 A. Now you can see, this building on the right, that's where the

15 offices are where I went for interrogations, and across from them is the

16 hangar where I was.

17 Q. And the office where you were first taken when you arrived at

18 Luka, is that shown in the picture?

19 A. Yes. You can see that. You can see it.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... On the photo? Which side?

21 A. Here you can see, on this picture on the right, two windows, a

22 little bit to the left, and then up a little bit, if you pass, you can see

23 an entrance. On the right side there is the door. So that's the first

24 part of the office. And then if you continue along straight, I think that

25 there are two more entrances.

Page 450

1 Q. And you mentioned when you were first taken to the office, you

2 mentioned Pudic, who hit you, and the JNA officer. Who were the other

3 people in the office when you got there, and were they wearing any

4 uniforms?

5 A. In the office, on the right, there are two men inside. They were

6 sitting on chairs. They were in camouflage uniforms. One of them had a

7 beard, and he had a large Kokarda insignia on the left. It was a metal

8 Kokarda insignia which he wore. When I entered the office, there were two

9 more men sitting inside. One of them was facing me directly. He was a

10 younger person. He was a lieutenant. He wasn't wearing a camouflage

11 uniform, but an olive-drab uniform. The other man was also wearing an

12 olive-drab uniform. And then, as I said, there was also that captain who

13 I knew personally. He was sitting to the left.

14 Q. And could you tell us, please, what the Kokarda is, what that

15 looks like and what that's associated with, in your mind?

16 A. That's the insignia. I know this. I learnt this also in history

17 classes. It's insignia which the Serbian Chetniks wore during the First

18 and the Second World Wars. This insignia was worn later by people who

19 belonged to the Serbian Radical Party.

20 Q. Thank you. Before the break I think you told us you were

21 initially placed in the first hangar and then later on moved over into the

22 second hangar, where there were several other people. Can you tell us how

23 many people were in the second hangar?

24 A. That first day when I arrived, there were approximately,

25 approximately, 200 people. Throughout my entire time in the hangar, for

Page 451

1 those 10 or 11 days that I spent there, I counted them to myself. So

2 sometimes I would count 100, 120, sometimes 170 men, then sometimes a

3 group would leave. They would go to work somewhere. Then they wouldn't

4 come back. Others would come, five or six new people would be brought

5 during the day. So I would add those people up. So all the time it was

6 from 100, 120, 150, 170, sometimes up to 200 people were there at certain

7 times. Sometimes I counted them and sometimes I did not.

8 Q. And would you tell the Court, please, what the conditions were

9 like in the hangar where you were kept with these other people.

10 A. All those people were lying on cardboard boxes. Some were lying

11 on the concrete, some just lay on their own clothes. I lay on cardboard

12 boxes. Mostly people were either sitting down or lying down when I

13 entered the hangar.

14 Q. And how big was that hangar that you were in with these other

15 people, approximately?

16 A. I don't know. I walked its width and length many times. So

17 perhaps it was 35 to 40 metres wide and about 70 metres long. I used to

18 walk down both hangars, because they were separated by doors. So I walked

19 everywhere. So it was about from 35 to 40 metres wide, and then 50 metres

20 long. So that's about the size of it.

21 Q. And tell us about the people that were kept in there with you.

22 Were they men, women, children?

23 A. All of them were men. There was only one woman, and her son was

24 with her. She was a retarded woman from Brcko. I knew her from before

25 the war. When I came to the hangar, she was there as well, on the 27th of

Page 452

1 May. I think that two days afterwards she was released, together with her

2 son. I don't know where she was taken. I don't know if she survived or

3 not. I'm not able to tell you that. But I do know that while I was in

4 the hangar, she was there for a day or two, and that was the only woman I

5 saw in the hangar then.

6 Q. Did you see other women at the hangar -- I mean at Luka, but not

7 in the hangar?

8 A. One of them used to come from the building where the offices were.

9 She would come in very often, accompanied by the soldiers. She would

10 enter the hangar. I don't know why she did that. Once they brought her

11 in to see if she knew anybody. But I knew her also. I'd seen her around

12 before. And even later, I had a chance to speak to her. She said that

13 she slept in these offices, the offices were closed. There were about

14 five or six other women that she mentioned were with her.

15 On another occasion, another woman came into the hangar together

16 with Kole, Kosta Simeunovic and Goran Jelisic. That was that Monika, she

17 was with him at the time. I think she appeared at the hangar twice with

18 him during the entire time that I was there.

19 Q. The first woman you mentioned, not Monika, what was the ethnicity

20 of that woman?

21 A. I know her very well because her former husband was also a rower

22 at one of our clubs. So I knew her. Her name was Ruzica. I think she

23 was an ethnic Croat, and I believe that she lived in Gunja, across the

24 Sava River bridge.

25 Q. And the men who were kept in the hangar with you, do you know what

Page 453

1 ethnicity they were?

2 A. At the time I was there, I think that 90 per cent of all the

3 people were Muslims. There were also several Croats, and there were also

4 us Siptar, as they call us, of Albanian origin. It doesn't matter that I

5 wasn't born there, but I belonged to that group of Siptars. And there

6 were also three or four people of Kosovar origin, just like myself. So

7 most of the people there were Muslims, there were some Croats and also

8 some Albanians or Siptar, as they call them.

9 Q. Is Siptar a derogative term for Albanian?

10 A. Yes, it is. That's the way they used it. However, in the

11 Albanian language, Albania is called Shqiptrie, so that's where that comes

12 from. So probably they turned this historical term into a derogatory

13 term.

14 Q. And the men that were kept there, were they -- were any of them

15 soldiers or uniformed personnel that you know of?

16 A. All the people that I saw in Luka at the time were in civilian

17 clothes. There were a couple of men in pajamas as well. I don't know how

18 they ended up wearing pajamas, but anyway, there were some men in pajamas

19 there.

20 Q. Did you know many of these people, or any of these people?

21 A. Yes. Almost all of them.

22 Q. Where were they from?

23 A. All of them, or nearly all of them, were from Brcko.

24 Q. And what was the age range of the men kept in the hangar?

25 A. The woman, who was the only woman there when I got there, and her

Page 454

1 son, I think he was maybe between 15 and 17 years old. There was another

2 young man, together with his father, who was there. He was maybe about

3 15. The rest of the men ranged from about 20 up to even 70 or 75 years of

4 age. The elderly ones, perhaps there were four or five of them, and the

5 rest were mostly people in their 40s, 50s, in their 30s, 25 years old, or

6 20. That was the age range.

7 Q. And during the time that you were there from the time of your

8 arrest, how many days total?

9 A. If I'm not wrong, if I'm not mistaken, I think I was there for 10

10 or 11 days.

11 Q. Do you recall the day on which you were released?

12 A. Yes, I do. I remember it very well. It was the 7th of June,

13 1992.

14 Q. And during that time, were you and the other men in the hangar

15 allowed to leave and go about freely?

16 A. I cannot hear the translation right now, but I did understand your

17 question.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Turn the microphone on, Mr. Prosecutor, I guess.

19 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. Let me repeat the question.

20 Q. Were you or any of the other men allowed to leave the hangar and

21 move about freely while you were at Luka?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were you locked in the hangars?

24 A. We were in the hangar, and only the first hangar had its door

25 open, the metal door. It was about 50 to 70 centimetres open. If you

Page 455

1 wanted to go out for air. But those of us who were in the second hangar,

2 if we wanted to go out and get some air, we had to go to the first hangar

3 and then squeeze through the gap. Outside the door there was a man, a

4 soldier, in a reserve JNA uniform. So each time we went out, we had to

5 ask him if we could go to the latrine or to have a drink of water, and

6 then they would let us go for two or three minutes. And they would always

7 check to see how long we would stay in the bathroom or in the latrine,

8 just opposite from the hangar where we were. There were two bathrooms and

9 two latrines there. And all of that was there. We slept there, we ate

10 there, we drank there. Everything was in there.

11 Q. Was the soldier armed who was watching you?

12 A. Yes. They were always armed. All of them had weapons, either

13 automatic or semi-automatic rifles.

14 Q. And did you know any of these men in JNA uniforms with weapons?

15 Were they local Serbs?

16 A. Some of them were. And we managed to get in touch or to establish

17 contact with most of them. They would come into the hangar and we would

18 chat. I knew some of them. Some of them were our local Serbs from Brcko.

19 Sometimes, when there was a change of shift, sometimes they would come

20 from Bijeljina or from the villages around Bijeljina. Sometimes, if they

21 were friendly, we would manage to establish some kind of contact with

22 them.

23 Q. In addition to the JNA uniformed men who were guarding you, were

24 there any other uniformed men who came into the camp during the time that

25 you were there?

Page 456

1 A. Yes. People came in camouflage uniforms, different -- members of

2 their different armies would come. There were people who came from the

3 republican SUP of Serbia. People came in camouflage uniforms, wearing the

4 insignia of Arkan's group. Ranko Cesic would come in wearing a JNA

5 camouflage uniform. Goran Jelisic would come in. One evening, about five

6 or six of them came in. It was after midnight. Perhaps it was 2.00 a.m.

7 They were wearing camouflage uniforms and they had flashlights. They

8 started to beat us, kick us, said that we should get up. We had to sing

9 Serbian songs, and they said: "Sing them loudly, as loudly as you can."

10 And this went on for perhaps 40 minutes. "Sing louder, louder." And they

11 were hitting us as we were doing this. You couldn't see who they were

12 because they were pointing the flashlights into our faces.

13 I was lucky. I didn't get beaten too much. I did sing, though.

14 So there were people coming in wearing different uniforms. There

15 were different people. But all of them wore the olive-drab-coloured

16 uniforms. They were either of a darker or lighter shades. There were

17 people in old JNA uniforms, new JNA uniforms. All of them put in an

18 appearance.

19 Q. And did you have an understanding during the time you were there

20 of who was in charge of Luka camp? Was there one individual that fit that

21 description?

22 A. The second day, Kosta, Kole, Simeunovic, a local Serb in a police

23 uniform, a blue police uniform, came to the hangar. He introduced himself

24 to us new people who arrived. And the other men who were already there

25 told us about it. He said: "I'm Kosta, Kole, most of you know me from

Page 457

1 Brcko. I am the commander of the Luka Brcko camp. When you are

2 interrogated, I would be present." And then he told us what we were

3 supposed to do during the day. This happened on the second day of my stay

4 in Luka.

5 Q. Did you know him from before?

6 A. Yes, I did. I knew him from before.

7 Q. I think earlier you mentioned another female who was in the camp

8 named Monika. Who was Monika?

9 A. That was his stepsister, Kosta's stepsister, Monika.

10 Q. And what ethnicity were Monika and Kole?

11 A. I cannot say about Kosta. He's probably a Serb. His father's a

12 Serb. His mother is maybe a Croat. I don't know. Maybe she is a Croat

13 or a Serb. And as for Monika, I don't know exactly. I don't know who her

14 father is or how she declared herself. But anyway, she was there.

15 Q. And what was her role at the camp? What did she do at Luka?

16 A. As I told you before, I think she appeared there on a couple of

17 occasions. Both times she was in Goran's company. She was wearing

18 civilian clothes. I don't know. She was wearing a skirt, summer skirt,

19 short summer skirt. She wasn't in uniform. She appeared with him. One

20 time when she came with him, he was angry, he was shouting and waving his

21 gun around the camp and she went across to the other side. There was a

22 young man there. Admir Didic was his name. They brought him. He was

23 wearing his pajamas. He was already beaten up and bloodied. She went up

24 to him, I guess he looked at her and she said: "Are you thirsty?" I

25 don't know whether he said that he was or wasn't. I couldn't hear his

Page 458

1 answer. But anyway, she started to pour a Coca-Cola over his head from a

2 large bottle, a bottle that can hold a litre and a half. And when she

3 poured that over his head, then she hit him on the head with the bottle.

4 The bottle shattered and then he fell down. I don't know. Then Goran had

5 his own show: "I killed 98 people. Fuck you balijas. I will kill 98

6 more of you." And then Kosta came and tried to calm down the situation.

7 And in the meantime he was walking around and kicking people and waving

8 his gun around. And then all three of them went out. That was that one

9 time.

10 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute. You're talking about Goran.

11 What was his last name?

12 A. Jelisic.

13 Q. And his ethnicity?

14 A. Serb. That's what he said.

15 Q. And do you know what -- was he in uniform? Did he belong to a

16 particular unit?

17 A. That time when he came to the hangar, he wore a camouflage uniform

18 of the JNA. I didn't see any other insignia on it. He didn't wear a cap.

19 Q. What kind of camouflage uniform did he wear?

20 A. From the uniforms that I know, I think that was the camouflage

21 uniform of the JNA. I don't know any other ones. That's what it was.

22 Q. Did he have a nickname that was known to the prisoners in the

23 camp?

24 A. Yes. They called him "Adolf," and he himself, that time when he

25 came to the hangar, said, he said "Goran Jelisic, Adolf." And the first

Page 459

1 time when I met him. I didn't meet him, but the first time that he

2 appeared in the hangar he said the same thing.

3 Q. And you testified just a few minutes ago that he said he had

4 killed 98 and he would kill 98 more. Did the prisoners that you talked to

5 mention or tell you that he had killed other people before you arrived in

6 Luka?

7 A. Well, it was very dangerous to speak of such things amongst us

8 prisoners in Luka at that time. But yes, two men -- actually, three men

9 from Elektrodistribucija, a father and son from Elektrodistribucija, and

10 another one of my colleagues from work, who also did the same kind of jobs

11 as I did, told me that he was present. I don't know when. Goran

12 committed some murders in Luka. So this is what I heard from those three

13 people who were there. However, nobody dared to say anything more than

14 that in Luka, and all the things that were said, we had to wait for

15 darkness to fall so that the neighbour who was lying down next to you

16 wouldn't see you, for whatever reason. Everything that was discussed that

17 went on in the hangar was always talked about in whispers.

18 Q. Let me ask you that the next photograph, 38.101, be given the next

19 exhibit number and shown to the witness.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P18.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you have that photograph on the screen before you,

23 and can you tell us what that's a picture of?

24 A. Yes, I know very well where this is. You can see the manhole.

25 It's just across from the hangar where I was.

Page 460

1 Q. And when you say "manhole," can you tell us where in the picture

2 you're talking about?

3 A. Yes. You are just pointing to it with the arrow. That's the

4 manhole.

5 Q. That's in the lower left-hand corner of the picture, what looks

6 like some sort of grating, I would call?

7 A. Yes. Yes. It's a receptacle for sewage, for waste water, for

8 rainwater. Near that place -- I mean, if you go straight down to the

9 Sava River, there's a large pipe which actually links up the whole

10 waterworks and sewage system in the town.

11 Q. And had some of the other detainees in the hangar with you told

12 you that there was anything special about that grate?

13 A. I will tell you the name. Smajo Delic told me at the time that he

14 was present when Jelisic lined up three or four men near that manhole and

15 stepped on their heads and fired into their heads. He said that he

16 himself had survived this execution. How, I don't know. And these two

17 other men, father and son, Abid and Osman Stranjac were also in Luka.

18 Osman told me that from that place where the arrow is right now, at that

19 place - and this is what he said, I am telling you what I heard - that

20 almost 80 people were killed, and from that place they were loaded up into

21 a JNA TAM 5000-D truck. He helped to load up those dead bodies. I don't

22 know where they were taken. He didn't tell me that. But anyway, he said

23 that he had counted 80 people who were killed that day. That's what I

24 heard. I don't know if that's true or not.

25 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Gasi: Did you personally see anyone killed

Page 461

1 during the time that you were at Luka?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Tell the Judges about when that occurred and how that occurred.

4 A. If we move from this place to the right, if you move the arrow to

5 the right, the office is on the right-hand side from this manhole. On one

6 occasion, the hangar was closed. On that day, we couldn't go out.

7 Everything was calm. And all of a sudden we heard a noise coming from the

8 outside. As I was sitting in the hangar, I could hear people shouting,

9 and shouting: "Come on. Move. Outside."

10 As I was by the door, I looked in that direction, and from the

11 office where I had once being interrogated, four civilians came out.

12 Ranko Cesic followed them and shot them in the back. Two of them fell on

13 the ground. Whether he killed them on the spot, I don't know. In any

14 case, I heard five or six shots all together. I also saw another local

15 Serb from Brcko who was standing, leaning on the wall next to the office.

16 He was observing the whole scene. His name is Miso Cajevic. He entered

17 the hangar twice while I was there. Both of them wore camouflage uniforms

18 at the time.

19 Q. Was there anyone else with those two men when this shooting

20 occurred?

21 A. There was another person in police uniform. I believe that it was

22 Pudic. Whether they shot or not, I don't know. I only saw Ranko shooting

23 them in the back.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I just wanted to indicate: This is an

25 incident which Mr. Cesic has pled guilty before you, Mr. President.

Page 462

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that.

2 MR. HANNIS: May we have the next exhibit photo 38.108 given the

3 next number and shown to the witness.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P19.


6 Q. Do you recognise who that's a photo of?

7 A. Yes, I do. I know who this is. It's Ranko Cesic, a neighbour of

8 mine.

9 Q. Did he live in your building?

10 A. Yes, he did. We lived in the same building.

11 Q. And what is his ethnicity?

12 A. He is a Serb.

13 Q. I want to ask you about Mr. Jelisic.

14 MR. HANNIS: Could we have the next photograph, 39.109, given the

15 next number and shown to the witness.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P20.


18 Q. Do you recognise the person in that photograph?

19 A. I do. Goran Jelisic, Adolf.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I draw your attention to the fact

22 that if you say I want to ask you about Mr. Jelisic, then ask for the next

23 photograph and ask the witness who is on this photograph, that might not

24 assist the Chamber in the most perfect way.

25 MR. HANNIS: I take your point, Your Honour. Thank you.

Page 463

1 Q. Mr. Gasi, was there also a soldier there or an officer in the camp

2 named Major Vojkan?

3 A. He also came twice or three times. Major Vojkan Djukanovic, he

4 wore a camouflage uniform of the JNA, and he also bore the rank of a JNA

5 major. He introduced himself to us. He delivered a few speeches as well.

6 Q. And what was his role at the camp, if you know?

7 A. According to him, according to what he told us on the first time

8 as he entered the hangar, he asked us to approach him because he wanted to

9 tell us something. On that occasion, he told us that he was the commander

10 of the Luka camp and that he would try to save as many people as possible.

11 And then he asked some people whom he had saved before I came, and he told

12 them: "You know, don't you, that I saved you when you were being

13 interrogated?" And then he said: "Well, see, men, the times are

14 different. We are going to organise ourselves better. You're going to be

15 safer here from now on. The situation in Luka is now improved. It's not

16 what it used to be."

17 And then he invited some other people whose names he even

18 remembered, to vouch for that. And after all of these words that he told

19 us, a group came into the hangar. They brought us cookies, cubes of

20 sugar, probably cigarettes as well. They would throw all that amongst the

21 detainees. On that same day, those who had come with sugarcubes and

22 cigarettes and cookies, who managed to catch them, the people who had

23 brought all these things in the first place took these people out and then

24 they beat them. So when they came back into the hangar, they were all

25 black and blue from beating. And that's what happened almost every day in

Page 464

1 the Luka camp.

2 Q. Do you recall an occasion where one of the detainees was abused by

3 a person who described himself as a Chetnik from Bijeljina?

4 A. Yes. There was Ibrahim Levic, who slept next to me on a

5 cardboard, just like me. Somebody who introduced himself as Enver, as a

6 Chetnik, stormed in. He had a knife and told this guy: "Stand up." He

7 grabbed him by the neck and he carved a cross on his forehead. And then

8 he also kicked him. And this man fell to the ground. He was bleeding.

9 That's what Enver did on that occasion when he entered the hangar.

10 Q. You mentioned the shooting by Ranko Cesic during your time at

11 Luka. Did you see dead bodies outside the hangars?

12 A. On one occasion we were taken out of the hangar. There were four

13 or five of us. We were supposed to do something. And they took us

14 between the hangars, there is a passage between the hangars. Three men

15 came. One wore a camouflage uniform, and the two others were guards,

16 wearing uniforms of the JNA reserve. Behind the hangar there are two

17 railroad tracks. There were some railway carriages there. And as we were

18 taken to an open area covered with gravels, they told us to go a bit to

19 the left, towards the Sava River, to a group of bodies that were down on

20 the gravel. They stayed behind us. And one of them told us: "Grab them

21 by their legs and by their arms and throw them into the river."

22 We started doing that. I believe that I myself and another

23 neighbour of mine managed to throw four bodies into the river.

24 Q. Let me ask you about these bodies. Approximately how many were

25 there at this location?

Page 465

1 A. I didn't count them, but I believe there were between 15 and 20 of

2 them.

3 Q. Were they men, women, children?

4 A. I can't be sure whether they were women or not, but I'm sure that

5 there were no children. I would have recognised children's bodies. I'm

6 sure that there were men. The four bodies that I threw into the river

7 were men. There may have also been women on the pile, but I'm not sure.

8 I am sure, however, that there were no children's bodies in that pile.

9 Q. What kind of clothing were they dressed in?

10 A. I didn't see a single uniform. They were all clothed in civilian

11 clothes.

12 Q. And could you see any injuries on their bodies?

13 A. Yes. There were some bloodstains on their backs, and holes -- and

14 on two bodies I saw holes on the necks, and on one body I saw that an ear

15 was missing, and that was the first guy that I threw into the river. I

16 believe -- as far as I can remember, one of them opened his eyes. I don't

17 know whether he was alive or not. In any case, his eyes were open. We

18 threw him into the river as well.

19 Q. And these holes you described, are you able to give us any better

20 description of what they looked like?

21 A. We could see bloodstains on those -- on the clothes of those

22 bodies. On one of them I could see that the right part of the head was

23 badly injured. One part of the ear was missing. Most of these bodies I

24 believe had been shot, either in the back or in the head. The ones that I

25 had an opportunity to look at better.

Page 466

1 Q. And of the ones you were able to look at, were you able to

2 recognise anyone either by facial features or clothing or anything else?

3 A. I'm not a hundred per cent sure, but I believe I recognised a

4 young man from my club. He had a sports T-shirt on. He was also shot in

5 the back, close to his shoulders. His yellow T-shirt was bloodstained.

6 He wore a pair of jeans and trainers. I didn't turn him around because I

7 was not the one who carried him into the river. But as I was looking at

8 him on that pile, from the back, I thought that I had recognised him.

9 There was also another man from my company, and I believe that I also

10 recognised him by the shoes and by the clothes that he was wearing. I

11 believe I recognised the leather jacket he always wore as he came to work.

12 And I believe that I recognised him as well. I cannot be a hundred per

13 cent sure that they were the people that I thought they were, but in any

14 case, I think that I did recognise the two.

15 Q. And what is the ethnicity of those two people that you thought you

16 might have recognised?

17 A. They were Muslims.

18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if we may, could I return to Exhibit

19 P14, which was shown to the witness earlier? If we could put that on the

20 screen before him.

21 Q. Do you have that in front of you now? No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The electronic version is not on the screen yet.

23 MR. HANNIS: I think it's on the screen now.

24 Q. We showed you that picture earlier. Can you tell us, from that

25 picture, where you came out of the hangar and where you went to throw

Page 467

1 bodies in the river?

2 A. If you point your arrow to the first hangar from which we came.

3 This is the door through which we came out. Now move the arrow up, up,

4 parallel with the building of the Luka. Yes. That's the way to go.

5 Here, at the end of this set of hangars, there is a passage, and I believe

6 that you can see the railway carriages in the photo if you move the arrow

7 through the passage. Here, this is where the two rows of railway

8 carriages were. I can still see them. And approximately where the arrow

9 is. And if you move to the left, downwards, there was some gravel. Here

10 there is a path down there. Here, exactly. You're okay here.

11 The bodies were somewhere around here. We had to go down to the

12 bank. This area was all open plain. It was not so overgrown. It was

13 plain open area. You could see the bank across the river in Croatia. We

14 came close to the river. We threw bodies into the river. As we threw

15 one, we would go back to the pile, took another one and threw him into the

16 river as well. That's what we did.

17 Q. Were you able to throw all the bodies into the river or did

18 something stop you?

19 A. I didn't, because they started shooting from the Croatian side. I

20 don't know whether they were shooting at us. We could hear bullets

21 hitting the railway carriages. People started running towards the railway

22 carriages. The soldiers had already hid behind them. Somebody started

23 shouting at us: "Motherfuckers, we're going to kill you all." And they

24 started cocking their rifles.

25 Then another soldier said to the first one: "Stop talking

Page 468

1 bullshit. Leave people alone."

2 And then we returned to the hangar, and then this soldier told us:

3 "You'd better keep quiet about what you had done and what you had seen."

4 Q. Then did you return to the hangar after that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You told us how the first day you arrived you were hit on the head

7 by Mr. Pudic. Were you yourself personally physically abused during your

8 10 or 11 days at Luka, besides that time?

9 A. He didn't hit me in the head. Actually, he missed my head and hit

10 me in the ear. But on that same day, I was beaten up. That was a bit

11 later.

12 Q. And tell the Judges, please, how that happened and who did that to

13 you.

14 A. Yes. When I was allowed to go to that second hangar, maybe an

15 hour or two hours later, a person appeared wearing a camouflage uniform

16 with the Arkan's soldiers' insignia on his arm. His name was Zivan. He

17 had long hair tied into a ponytail. He entered and came up to the middle

18 of the hangar. There were two other men following him, wearing a JNA

19 reserve army uniforms. He was the only one wearing a camouflage uniform.

20 He said: "Where is that Siptar who arrived earlier today?" I got up.

21 Then he said: "Come closer."

22 As I was approaching him, he held his arm behind his back, and as

23 I was some metre away from him, he said: "Come on. Come closer."

24 I came closer, and then he waved his right arm. He had a key in

25 his hand, a key which weighed about two kilos, approximately. And he hit

Page 469

1 me in the right shoulder. Then he wanted to hit me in the head, but

2 missed. Then he tried to hit me in the head again. He missed and he hit

3 me in the other shoulder, somewhere in the neck area. When he hit me the

4 second time, I fell on the concrete floor. And I heard one of them

5 saying: "This guy looks really strong. You have to hit him twice to

6 throw him on the ground."

7 I received a few more kicks in the head and in the stomach area,

8 in the chest.

9 Q. Did you suffer any long-term consequences as a result of that

10 beating?

11 A. No. The only thing I suffered was the buzzing sound in the head,

12 and I also had a pain in the upper part of my head. When I arrived in a

13 refugee centre, later on in my life, they did some x-rays in order to see

14 whether something was broken, but nothing was broken. I did suffer pain,

15 but now I can hear all right and I can see all right.

16 Q. And the item he hit you with is described as a key. Can you

17 describe for us what that looked like and what it's used for?

18 A. It was similar to a monkey wrench that is used for tightening

19 firemen's hoses one to another. This is what firemen used when they were

20 mounting their hose together. They used this thing in the shape of a

21 letter "C." It was a metal object similar to a monkey wrench. It was a

22 piece of tool that firemen use.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Gasi, during your time at Luka, were you taken to

24 the office to be interrogated?

25 A. On the following day, in the morning, Kosta came, and from the

Page 470

1 hangar, I went to the office, on the left-hand side. As I entered the

2 office, a police inspector was there, Petar Kaurinovic, also known as

3 Pero. Zoran Kondic was with him. He used to be a crime technician in the

4 Brcko police before the war. And there was an acquaintance of mine,

5 Petar Zaric, who belonged to the reserve police unit, together with the

6 two of them. They didn't beat me. I sat down.

7 Q. In addition to Kosta and these policemen you've described, was

8 there anyone else that sat in during your interrogation?

9 A. Only the three of them were in that office, in the room where I

10 was. There was also another office. I could see them through the open

11 door. But these people were not present while I was being interrogated.

12 Q. And what did they ask you about?

13 A. Since the three of them knew me from before, Petar told me:

14 "Before we start, Isak, I can tell you that your father and your brothers

15 and your nephew were also here. I made sure that they are all right. Now

16 they are at home, and you don't have to worry about them."

17 Q. And what did they ask you about after they told you that?

18 A. The first question was: "Isak, do you have any weapons?" That's

19 what Petar asked me.

20 Q. Did you?

21 A. I said I didn't have any. And then he said: "But you had a

22 licence to carry a pistol." I said: "Yes, but people from the barracks

23 came and took it away from me and gave me a receipt." And then he says:

24 "Ah, this is really good that you have this receipt. It may be a

25 lifesaver for you in the future."

Page 471

1 Q. Did they ask you anything about other Muslims in Brcko?

2 A. Yes. They asked me whether I knew any Muslim extremists from the

3 SDA, the Green Berets. I said: "Pero, I don't know any Muslim

4 extremists. All I know, and people I know are the people who were with me

5 in the SDA. And if there is anything else I can assist you with, I will

6 gladly do that. You just keep on asking and I'll try and answer."

7 At the end, he asked me whether I voted for an independent Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina in the referendum. I said: "Yes, I did." And he says:

9 "Well, that's the biggest mistake in your life." And then I said:

10 "Pero, if that is the biggest mistake, then kill me. I did vote, and

11 that's how things are."

12 And then he told me: "No. No. We are not going to kill you. We

13 don't kill people. I'm not here to kill you." And this and that.

14 And then he asked me whether I had been ill-treated. I said:

15 "No, I wasn't." And then he said: "Why do you have bruises all over

16 your head?" And I said: "Well, these are bruises from sleeping on the

17 concrete floor." And then he says: "Just tell me if anybody ill-treated

18 you. We know you. We know who you are. We are going to help you." And

19 then I said: "Well, if you're going to then help me, then help me leave

20 this place. I don't know to be here, if possible."

21 Q. And why did you tell them that you had not been beaten, even

22 though that was the cause of your injuries?

23 A. Well, sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut, because after

24 the interrogation, I had to go to the hangar again, and I really didn't

25 know who would come after Petar.

Page 472

1 Q. And before you returned to the hangar after that interrogation,

2 did you have occasion to talk with anyone else in the office area?

3 A. Not at that occasion. When they told me I was free to go, he said

4 that he would see what he could do so that I don't spend too long there.

5 I went out and I returned to the hangar.

6 Q. And who told you that he would see what he could do?

7 A. Petar said that as I was leaving that room where they were, that

8 office.

9 Q. Was there a time shortly after that interrogation that you spoke

10 with a JNA lieutenant near the bathroom?

11 A. Yes. Once when they allowed me to go to the toilet, to that

12 bathroom, when I went into the bathroom, when the guard allowed me to go,

13 the guard in front of the hangar, I then suddenly heard that somebody had

14 come in after me. I stayed a little longer inside, and then when I came

15 out, I saw that lieutenant whom I saw on the first day when I came to the

16 Luka. From the first moment I saw him, when I saw his eyes, he seemed to

17 me to be a good person. And he told me, in the corridor: "For God's

18 sake, man. I listened to your interrogation. I heard where your wife is.

19 Do you want me to call her? Do you have the phone number in Belgrade

20 where she is?" I said: "Yes, I will give it to you."

21 And I did give it to him. I gave him the business card from that

22 friend, the card that I had in my pocket. And that was it.

23 On another occasion, maybe a day or two later, I again had the

24 opportunity to meet that man. He said that he had called. He told them

25 that I was here. And actually, he was the one who gave me two pills for

Page 473

1 the stomach pain that I had. I also had diarrhoea, so ... That's how it

2 was.

3 Q. And did you --

4 A. There was one friendly person, like I said.

5 Q. And did you ever see him again after that second occasion when he

6 told you he had called and he gave you the pills?

7 A. No, I never saw him again while I was in Luka. I haven't seen him

8 again to this very day.

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, that might be a good time to stop.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it certainly is, because at least there's

11 another five minutes.

12 Mr. Gasi, we have to stop for now, and we expect you to appear

13 again tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon. May I instruct

14 you not to speak with anyone from now on on the testimony you have given

15 until now, also on the testimony you're about to give. So with neither of

16 the parties, nor with any third persons you are allowed to speak about

17 your testimony.

18 Yes. Then, Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Gasi out of the

19 courtroom.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: This just leaves me a couple of minutes to ask the

23 attention of the parties for some practical, procedural aspects.

24 The first thing is the use of the arrow on the screen. If the

25 arrow is used, I take it that the arrow is manipulated by your assistant.

Page 474

1 Yes. If the arrow is used when asking questions, the use seems not to be

2 problematic if it supports the question itself. If you tell us what the

3 white building in the left top corner of the picture is, then I think

4 there's no problem if the arrow goes to that same corner of the picture.

5 On the other hand, if the arrow should not be used to guide the

6 witness. When the witness Gasi was asked to identify where the fence was,

7 the arrow had come on the place where the fence might have been already

8 five times before he said it was over there. That's not the way of

9 guiding a witness.

10 When the witness answers a question, as we have seen this

11 afternoon, the witness described more or less part of the village, I

12 remember the Posavina Hotel, which, at least in my recollection, didn't

13 play any further role in his testimony, I think if it's just a kind of a

14 guided tour of irrelevant place in a village there's no need to repeat it,

15 or to say to the witness the point when the witness said this was pointing

16 at that building. But of course if it is relevant, then it's very

17 difficult, both for this Chamber at a later stage, but certainly also for

18 an Appeals Chamber, if one of the parties would appeal against a

19 judgement. It's almost impossible to follow the testimony if it's not

20 clearly described. So if the arrow is used during an answer, the witness

21 should be invited to give the guidance for how to move the arrow, and then

22 if it's relevant, it should be briefly described, so as to -- when the

23 witness identified this building, the arrow was at the red building in the

24 lower left corner of the photograph. Because otherwise we are lost.

25 This is some guidance in respect of the use of the arrow.

Page 475

1 The Chamber is also a bit concerned about the way the pictures are

2 presented to the Chamber. Of course, the testimony of the witness is not

3 concluded yet, but if, for example, I would look at the exhibits P6, P7,

4 and P8, the Chamber is provided with the information that this is, first

5 of all, in Brcko; second, that it's Goran Jelisic, who is shooting the

6 Muslim man, men in the plural. In the testimony, we have not heard

7 anything yet on the identity of the one who is shooting, neither on the

8 ethnicity of the victim, nor whether there was one man or there were more

9 men.

10 Similarly, it draws the attention to buildings, for example, on

11 Exhibit P9. It's the Partizan sports hall, I take it, whereas three

12 buildings have identified during the testimony clearly, which is one of

13 the sports hall, the other one is hotel, and a third one a cultural

14 centre. The Chamber is not that happy to be guided already by -- perhaps

15 not guided, but to receive information in such a way. So if there would

16 be another way of presenting this without the description attached to it,

17 that would be appreciated.

18 Yes, Mr. Harmon.

19 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I know we're on the preliminary steps of

20 a long voyage, and it's very helpful for you to point things out to us.

21 We will try to resolve matters that are, such as the ones you have

22 described, in the clearest way possible. In fact, Your Honour, I raised

23 it with Defence counsel during the break and made a number of suggestions

24 that might be of benefit to the Chamber. Because I came to the same

25 conclusion that you came to and Your Honours came to, that moving the

Page 476

1 arrow now isn't going to be helpful to the Chamber later on, or an Appeals

2 Chamber.

3 And one suggestion I have is that when it comes to buildings, for

4 example, that are merely used to orient the Court through a testimony,

5 that we might premark those photographs with numbers and attach a legend

6 behind that. For example, the Partizan hall could have been marked with a

7 number 1, and the hotel could have been marked with a number 2, and at the

8 conclusion of the testimony, there would be attached to that a legend that

9 would have, number 1, Partizan hall; number 2, building of the hotel. The

10 witness would identify what number 1 represents. It would represent

11 number 2. So that's a system that we have used previously in other cases

12 that was quite beneficial. But in any event, if it's acceptable to the

13 Court, Defence counsel, and the Prosecution will get together, we'll try

14 to find a system that works best. We'll raise it with the Senior Legal

15 Officer. They can put forth our suggestions with Your Honours and if

16 Your Honours approve we will proceed the rest of the trial in that manner.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're quite flexible in that respect and I

18 appreciate that you also will discuss it with Defence, from which I will

19 hear whether they would agree with your suggestions or not. Because

20 that's, of course, essential. If you say, for example, if a picture shows

21 a city, and if one of the buildings gets a number, and if the witness

22 then, of course, would be asked whether he sees on this picture the

23 building where a certain event took place, then of course he might be

24 inclined to choose the building, the only one with a number next to it.

25 So it has to be worked out in such a way that both parties are confident

Page 477

1 that it works well, and of course there's no prejudice to the other party.

2 So I'm welcoming any suggestions and any cooperation between the

3 parties in that respect.

4 Is there -- you have commented on a few things -- yes, Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, one matter related to, I think, Exhibits

6 P6, 7, and 8, described as Goran Jelisic shooting some individuals.


8 MR. HANNIS: And that's correct. They are photos of

9 Goran Jelisic. The shootings that this witness has described as occurring

10 on that street on that day when he was upstairs watching that apartment,

11 we don't know whether the policeman he saw a blue uniform was

12 Goran Jelisic. We know it's the same street and the same building.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But whatever it is, we get a picture with a title

14 next to it that it's Goran Jelisic shooting the men, in the plural, where

15 I didn't identify any other possible victim on the picture. So we get

16 additional information which does not come from the witness, and we get it

17 for free with the photograph, and that's not the way to do it.

18 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And there must be a technical way of solving

20 this -- if the information should come to us not in this way, and if not,

21 it should be deleted. Yes. Any observations from the Defence.

22 MR. STEWART: Just on that, we'd agree with what's been said so

23 far, Your Honour. It seems to us that all that's needed is the bare

24 minimum labelling of the photograph to enable it to be distinguished

25 conveniently from other photographs. The less said the better should be

Page 478

1 the principle, really, consistent with just giving a useful identification

2 of the photograph. But we understand that is basically agreed as a

3 principle.


5 MR. STEWART: Just a point that arose in relation to this

6 particular witness. It hasn't caused enormous problems in this case

7 because, as was indicated, to some extent additional evidence is being

8 adduced through this witness that might have come through another witness

9 anyway. So we haven't been taken greatly by surprise in relation to this

10 matter. But Your Honour indicated earlier that in principle if there is

11 to be any expansion of the witness's evidence outside the scope of the

12 65 ter summary, which is served precisely for that reason to alert us as

13 to what the scope of the evidence will be then it is extremely important

14 that we are given ample notice of that if there is to be any suggestion

15 that there is expansion of the scope of the evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I indicated already that if the scope

17 of the evidence really changes, then of course if these were just parts

18 taken out of the summary of other witnesses, should then be added to the

19 witness, through which this information will be led in evidence. Yes,

20 Mr. Harmon.

21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we're aware of that problem. We

22 addressed it today, as a matter of fact, in respect of another witness. I

23 signed a memo to Defence counsel, identifying evidence or information that

24 we received during the proofing session that was outside of the Rule 65

25 ter conference. I sent a memo today. I signed it at lunch-time I sent

Page 479

1 it to Defence counsel. I don't know if they've yet received it yet. And

2 I sent a copy to Mr. Harhoff to provide Your Honours with.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's say that's a start, and we'll have to get used

4 to systems and methods we'll use in this trial.

5 Mr. Stewart.

6 MR. STEWART: A couple of points, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I have to -- if they take more than one

8 or two minutes -- I mean, the interpreters have been working hard, and a

9 couple of minutes. If -- I would ask them, they might allow me, but if

10 it's more substantive we have to do it at the beginning.

11 MR. STEWART: It won't take long.

12 JUDGE ORIE: But I still have to ask the interpreters.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes. First of all it would be extremely helpful to

14 the Defence and we think entirely reasonable if it's indicated to us by

15 the Prosecution which, if any, previous -- in which if any previous case

16 any witness has given evidence and also the dates. In particular in

17 relation to this witness, who has given evidence in the Milosevic trial, I

18 think the date was sometime in September. But anyway, it would be

19 extremely helpful to know that date afterwards, because we then can find

20 it. I won't enter into whose responsibility it is to provide whom with

21 transcripts. I know that's a vexed issue in the end. We'll try to get to

22 the bottom of that. The only other point is I have asked and it would be

23 extremely helpful, because Your Honours knows some of the difficulties we

24 face, if we simply could be provided with copies of all the 65 ter

25 statements for the witnesses who are going to give evidence in this

Page 480

1 four-week phase of the trial. There aren't that many. We suppose the

2 Prosecution have got them to hand. Mr. Harmon helpfully indicated at, I

3 believe, the 65 ter meeting last week all sorts of sources where we could

4 find these things, but for this immediate phase it would be helpful if we

5 could just be provided with that small batch of 65 ter summaries.

6 MR. HARMON: That should not be a problem.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any other issue? Then we'll adjourn until

8 tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, in this same courtroom.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day of

11 February 2004, at 2.15 p.m.