Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 584

 1                           Friday, 6 February 2004 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8     Momcilo Krajisnik.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good afternoon to

10     everyone.  I was informed that Mr. Stewart will not be with us this

11     afternoon.

12             MS. LOUKAS:  Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.  He will be

13     arriving after the first break, but he's attending to some other matters.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Karagiannakis, you may proceed with your

15     examination-in-chief, but not after I have reminded you, Witness 224,

16     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've made yesterday.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

18                           WITNESS:  Witness KRAJ-224 [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Examined by Ms. Karagiannakis [Continued]:

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

22             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

23        Q.   I'd just like to recap where we left your testimony yesterday and

24     I'll continue with some questions after that.  You were telling us about

25     the 4th of May.  You'd been taken to Luka.  You were in an office.  A

Page 585

 1     policeman had told you that you were to be interrogated.  Now, what

 2     happened after that?

 3        A.   We were offered a drink, a cup of coffee, fruit juice.  This

 4     person tried to convince us that it would be just a formal interrogation,

 5     that there was no reason for us to worry about anything.  He tried to

 6     relax us.  However, after only a little while a man stormed in.  He was

 7     angry.  He grabbed a policeman who was sitting there.  He pushed him out

 8     of the office, physically pushed him out.  The policeman was trying to

 9     fight him.  He tried to explain that he was in charge of us and that he

10     should be in the office, but the man didn't care.  He fired a few shots

11     in the air and then returned to the office on his own without the

12     policeman.

13        Q.   Had you seen that man before?

14        A.   No, I did not.

15        Q.   What was that man wearing?

16        A.   A military uniform.

17        Q.   Can you describe the military uniform?

18        A.   It was like a camouflage uniform with leaves of olive green

19     colour.

20        Q.   Did you subsequently learn who that man was?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And who was he?

23        A.   Ranko Cesic.

24        Q.   All right.  What did Ranko Cesic do?

25        A.   When he returned into the office, he started shouting so much

Page 586

 1     that the whole room was shaking.  The blood vessels in his neck were

 2     tense.  He was spitting with anger.  He started cursing our balija

 3     mothers, us balijas.  And then he first --

 4        Q.   If I can just stop you there.  What does "balija" mean?

 5        A.   This was the first time I ever heard this word and I ever learned

 6     of this name balija.  In my view, balija is probably an ugly name for a

 7     Muslim -- for the Muslim people.

 8        Q.   All right.  What else did he say?

 9        A.   He cursed us.  He said he hated all Muslims.  His every word was

10     a swear word.  He grabbed the doctor who was standing in front of him and

11     then started beating him on his head first with a boxer and then he hit

12     him with a rifle butt.  The whole room was resounding.  The man was

13     screaming.  He fell down on the ground and then he started stomping all

14     over him with his boots.  He was kicking him.  He was hitting him.  And

15     then the doctor stopped moving.  And then he grabbed Mustafa and Rasko. 

16     He then kicked and hit the two of them.  He was cursing all this time. 

17     He was so beside himself that he was beating them until the moment they

18     fell to the ground.  He broke out in sweat.  He was tired from all this

19     beating. 

20             And then he ordered the two people who fell down to stand up. 

21     The two -- the people stood up.  They were afraid.  This is the kind of

22     terror I had never seen before.  This was us facing this terror that

23     paralysed all of us.

24             People slowly got on their feet.  Some would stumble and fall

25     down.  Then he would kick them again.  Eventually, all the people stood

Page 587

 1     up and were standing on their feet.

 2             Then he ordered one of our employees who was the strongest of all

 3     of us, he ordered him to hit me with a boxer.  The man --

 4        Q.   Can I just stop you there?  When you say "boxer," what do you

 5     mean?

 6        A.   This is a fist which looks like a boxer's fist.  And he told him

 7     to hit me with his fist and if he didn't hit me hard enough he would hit

 8     him.  So this man didn't think twice.  He hit me with this boxer fist.  I

 9     fell behind a desk that was behind me.  I fell between two chairs, or two

10     armchairs.  I don't know what those were.  And that's how I remained

11     lying down.  He ordered me to stand up, ordered me to move forward, and

12     again, three or four times, he ordered the same man to hit me with his

13     fist and every time I would fell behind the desk.

14             And then he ordered everybody to hit each other with their fists

15     in the head, and people were beating each other.  They were wet.  They

16     were bloodstained but they had to do it.  They had to beat each other to

17     give him the time to rest.

18        Q.   When you say the people were hitting each other, which people do

19     you mean?

20        A.   Yes.  The people who had been brought from the hospital.

21        Q.   After some time did anybody else come into the office?

22        A.   Cesic ran out from the room and brought a man.  We heard a shot

23     from -- coming from the outside.  This man that he brought in was

24     terrified.  He was bloodstained.  He was shaking.  He was begging and

25     crying.  And as he was bringing this man in, he was hitting him with his

Page 588

 1     rifle butt, and he was kicking him.  Those were terrible scenes.

 2             The beg -- the man was begging him to stop beating him.  He said

 3     he would do anything he wanted him to do, but this Cesic continued like a

 4     maniac.  And the man stopped crying.  I believe that he had broken his --

 5     every bone in his body.  The beating was terrible.  It was awful.  It was

 6     unbearable.

 7        Q.   Take your time, madam.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam, if you -- if you would prefer to have a short

 9     break if you feel that your emotions are such that you could not

10     continue, please indicate so.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just give me a moment to calm down,

12     please.

13             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  Perhaps it would be a good idea to take a

14     five-minute break, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would it be a good idea, Witness 224, that we

16     have a short break?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Five minutes.  If you can

18     give me just to go out, wash my face, I'll be okay.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For going out we have to leave the curtains

20     down.  We will adjourn for five minutes.

21                           ---  Break taken at 2.31 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 2.45 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber intends to allow the witness to be

24     accompanied by a person of the victims and witness section.  If there is

25     any observation to be made for the parties, I'd like to know.

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Page 590

 1             MS. LOUKAS:  There's no observation to be made, Your Honour, from

 2     the Defence perspective.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could the witness please be escorted in.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 224, the Chamber understands that giving

 6     testimony may well be very emotional an experience for you.  The Chamber

 7     understands that, and you don't have to be ashamed of it.  And if you

 8     need any extra time, please let us know.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, please?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  All my

12     life dedicated to working and helping for people, and for the first time

13     I met -- I faced something that was inconceivable, so I experienced a

14     terrible shock, and I still feel the pain.  It was really a painful

15     experience.  And now having to go through this just revives this pain.

16     But I still want to continue with this testimony.  I want to tell the

17     truth and nothing but the truth.  I want to inform you about the truth. 

18     I want the criminals to be punished.  I want the crime to be punished.

19     That's my own goal.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 224, this Chamber is trying to find the

21     truth and has understanding for your emotions.

22             Ms. Karagiannakis, please proceed.

23             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

24        Q.   After the end of the --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 591

 1             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

 2        Q.   After the end of that beating -- or those beatings, where did you

 3     go?

 4        A.   He pushed all of us outside.  He simply just pushed us outside.

 5     He was behind us pushing us, and I could just feel that I was being

 6     pushed in that direction.  I looked to the side.  There was a number of

 7     soldiers there.  They continued to push us towards the hangar, towards

 8     the wall near the door.  I looked to the side.  There was some people

 9     next to me, but at that point I couldn't see all of them.  I was pushed

10     up to the hangar wall, and I was the first next to the door along that

11     wall.

12        Q.   You said there was some people at the hangar door.  Do you

13     remember how many?

14        A.   Yes.  We were ordered to lean against the wall, pushed off with

15     our legs.  I raised my head a little bit, and I could see that there was

16     a column back there.  I couldn't see the end of it.  The people who were

17     standing along the wall with their hands on the wall and with their faces

18     towards the wall.

19        Q.   Do you remember how many people there were?

20        A.   It was a very long column numbering possibly about 50 people.

21     From what I saw as I was coming to the place, and then when I looked from

22     the side, I could see this column, very long column, and I couldn't see

23     the end of it.

24        Q.   What were the people in the column wearing?

25        A.   They were civilians.  Their clothes were civilian clothes.

Page 592

 1        Q.   What happened then?

 2        A.   Behind me the soldiers were talking.  I didn't hear what they

 3     were saying.  I heard them say that we should line up, and there was an

 4     order to fire.  At that point, I don't know why I turned towards the

 5     line.  I turned to my side, and that's when I saw that it was a column of

 6     approximately 50 people.

 7             As I say, I don't know why I turned around.  At that moment,

 8     somebody spoke up.  "What are you doing?  Why are you turning around?"

 9     And I didn't know that I was being addressed until I could sense somebody

10     come up to me and pull me by my hand out of that line, and then they

11     pulled me past those soldiers.  This person was walking alongside me

12     holding my hand.  And as I was passing by the soldiers, I heard the order

13     to fire, and I could hear a terrible blast.  I could hear the firing of a

14     large number of rifles, and you could smell the gunpowder in the air, and

15     it was irritating my eyes and my face.  This smell of gunpowder and the

16     smoke were very irritating for the eyes.

17             I continued to walk.  I didn't dare turn around because this

18     soldier was still holding my hand.  So I didn't turn around, but

19     subconsciously I was expecting -- even though I couldn't turn around, I

20     wanted to hear what was happening behind me.  Was it really possible that

21     those people were killed?  I just wanted to at least hear the falling

22     bodies, the sound of the bodies that were falling.  And I did hear that. 

23     I heard the bodies as they fell, and I could hear the sounds, the sighs,

24     moans of people.  As the people were falling, they were making these

25     sounds, and you could hear these dull thuds of those 50 bodies falling to

Page 593

 1     the cement.

 2             I was then brought back to the same room where I was before. 

 3     Once I was brought into the room, I didn't hear the soldier.  I didn't

 4     see the soldier any more.  And then I heard the sound of Branko Cesic's

 5     voice.  He was shouting and pushing me inside that room.  I found myself

 6     alone with him in that room.

 7             He placed a chair next to the wall, and he ordered me to sit

 8     down.  He placed a second chair in front of me.  He turned his automatic

 9     rifle towards me.  It was almost pointing at me, and he fired.  And I

10     could smell the gunpowder and the smoke, and I could see the bullet

11     entering the wall.  And he said that in order -- he wanted to just

12     question me a little bit, play around with my nerves.  He asked me about

13     my work, what was I doing, how was he killing their Serb children.  I was

14     dumbfounded.  I didn't know where he got the idea to say such things to

15     me.

16             Then he asked about my husband.  He asked a lot about my husband. 

17     He asked me about my work.  He said, "I just want to play around with you

18     a little bit to decide what to do with you."  Then he ordered me -- I

19     don't know how long this took.  It seemed to last an eternity for me. 

20     Each minute seemed like a year.  It was terrible to go through something

21     like that.

22             Then he pulled me out and made me leave.  I was walking in front

23     of him, and then there was a vehicle, a van or some kind of vehicle which

24     was outside.  He made me go in and sit to the seat next to the driver's

25     seat, the front passenger's seat.  He sat down in the driver's seat and

Page 594

 1     the vehicle set off.

 2             I could sense two German shepherds, two very large dogs that were

 3     behind me, and I could feel their breath.  They were breathing behind me. 

 4     They were close to me, so I could just sense their saliva falling onto my

 5     shoulders.

 6             Then we turned around.  We came up to the hangar entrance.  He

 7     ordered the guards to open the hangar, which is what they did, and then

 8     he turned to the right.  He went towards the hangar.  It was terrible for

 9     me.  At the same time, I was ashamed, and I was afraid.  Everything was

10     mixed up together.  I didn't know where to look, because I was so afraid,

11     and because of the fear, my eyes were just gazing around the walls.

12             I looked to the side through the window, and I could see that

13     people were lined up with their hands up.  They were lined up along the

14     wall around the hangar.

15             He went around the hangar slowly, and he was listing some things

16     to himself.  I don't know what it was.  I was disturbed by the growling

17     of the dogs while we were driving around through the hangar.  He was

18     going very slowly, and I could see every wall, every side, and I saw a

19     lot of people.

20             I estimate that there were perhaps about 100 people there who

21     were civilians.  This is what I was able to estimate in spite of my fear. 

22     They were wearing different civilian clothes, jeans, shirts, T-shirts.  I

23     am sure, 100 per cent sure that they were all civilians.  I don't

24     remember, I didn't see, and I cannot say for certain whether I saw

25     soldiers inside or not.

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Page 596

 1             A circle was formed.  Very soon we were outside.  He turned

 2     towards the gate going out of Luka.  They opened the gate very quickly.

 3     The guards opened it very quickly because they probably knew him well. 

 4     He drove straight towards the bridge.  It was already dark.  It was the

 5     first time that I noticed it was already dark.

 6             We were on the street going towards the bridge.  He stopped the

 7     car, and then he told me that he had to play with me, that he made the

 8     decision what he was going to do with me and that the first time -- that

 9     the first thing he wanted to do was to rape me.  Then he took a knife

10     out.  He had the knife in his boot, a very large knife with a serrated

11     edge.  He placed it on my neck.  The dogs heads were just above me.  I

12     was very afraid.  I grabbed the car door, the door handle, with one hand.

13     With my other hand, he just simply took my other hand and pulled it

14     towards him, and then he said -- he pulled my hand, and then he started

15     to lift my skirt.  He started to undress me.  He opened up his trousers,

16     and at that point I was petrified.  He said that I shouldn't move and

17     that he would use the knife if I did.

18        Q.   Witness, can you just in one sentence describe what happened

19     next?  No need for details.

20        A.   Yes.  He raped me.  And while he was raping me, he said that it

21     was a pleasure to have one more balija woman to rape, something to that

22     effect.

23        Q.   What happened after he finished raping you?

24        A.   As he was zipping himself up, he said, "We're going to a

25     different area now."  He said we would go to the bridge where he would

Page 597

 1     cut my throat and throw me into the river.

 2             As he said that, some lights appeared.  They were from -- came

 3     from the back, and they lit up the front part.  Somebody stopped in their

 4     vehicle behind us.  A man came out.  I didn't know who he was.  He came

 5     out, and he said, "Ranko, come out."  Ranko didn't respond immediately. 

 6     He just looked through the window.  Then he told me, "Please, you have to

 7     come out.  We have to talk."  So that man was trying to get him to come

 8     out of the car so that they could talk.

 9             Ranko went out of the car.  They began to talk normally, then a

10     louder conversation ensued.  It was more like an argument.  Then the

11     argument became even louder, and then I heard this other man telling him,

12     "Why did you take an inmate out without permission?"  He was berating

13     him.  He was not allowed to do that.  He needed to have permission.  So

14     this was the gist of that conversation.

15             Then the person who was the driver actually told this other

16     person to come out, and then all three of them stood there and talked. 

17     There was a little bit of pushing, and the argument was a little bit

18     heated.  However, the man who was driving left his companion to discuss

19     things with Ranko, and in the conversation they mentioned Ranko Cesic. 

20     And this is the first time that I found out his name.

21             The driver then came around to my side.  He opened the door and

22     asked me nicely -- first he introduced himself.  He said, "Madam, my name

23     is Dragan.  Please don't be afraid.  Please come into my car.  Nothing

24     will happen to you.  I'm going to take you."  So I went into his car. 

25     The man sat down.  Dragan sat down, and he drove straight towards the

Page 598

 1     SUP.

 2             So those two men, the driver -- the co-driver and Ranko Cesic

 3     left -- were left behind in that place where we were while the two of us,

 4     Dragan and I, found ourselves in front of the SUP.

 5             He stopped in front of the SUP.  He parked the car.  There were a

 6     lot of soldiers in front of the SUP, in military uniform.  They were all

 7     kinds of uniforms.  They were moving around.  They were not standing

 8     still.  They were going in one direction and coming back.  That was large

 9     number of soldiers.  Perhaps about 50 of them were there.

10             However, Dragan got out of the car and crossed over to my side,

11     and, holding my hand, he passed and went up the stairs, and he escorted

12     me to the right side, to an office.  He took me into the office.  We were

13     alone.

14             Dragan tried to calm me down a little bit, to tell me that I was

15     in safe hands, that nothing will happen, and what he wanted to do was to

16     just do a formal interrogation and that I should not be afraid.  He even

17     asked somebody to bring me some coffee.  He offered me a cigarette so

18     that I could calm down.  This took some time, because I was shaking all

19     over.  It took me a while to calm down so that he could ask questions and

20     that I could answer his questions.

21             After about perhaps half an hour or so I calmed down, and he

22     started to question me very kindly about my family.  I answered what I

23     could, what I knew of my family, where they were, where they were living.

24     I gave him the answers, and then he said that the main interrogation

25     should be conducted by Dragan Veselic, the chief of the SUP, and that

Page 599

 1     they were waiting for him to be free.  And we waited for a little bit for

 2     him to come to us.

 3             Not a long time afterwards, Dragan took me up to the third floor. 

 4     He was walking alongside of me.  He took me to the third floor where

 5     there was a kind of conference room.  There was a round table there with

 6     chairs, and there were about four soldiers inside this room.  One was

 7     next to the door, two were at the end of the room, and one of them was

 8     walking between the table and the windows.

 9             So as I came in, again they brought a chair next to the door for

10     me to sit down.  The man who was walking around sat down opposite me.  He

11     asked me, "Look at me carefully.  Do you know me?"  He repeat this had a

12     couple of times.  "Look at me carefully."  The man was shaven with short

13     hair, wearing soldier's clothing.  I looked at him for a while and I said

14     that I didn't know him.  (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17             Then he started to interrogate me.  He asked me about my family. 

18     Mostly he asked about my friends, our common friends with whom we

19     socialised before the war.  These friends with whom I had contacts with

20     were people from mixed marriages.  They were of all religions, all mixed

21     up.  However, I told him I didn't know where those people were.  And I

22     really didn't know where they were.

23             From the beginning, I was in the hospital, I didn't know what was

24     going on outside.  I didn't know what was going on in town.  Then he

25     began to count back.  He gave me an ultimatum.  He said I had one minute

Page 600

 1     to respond or he would kill me, and I said, "Sir, you can kill me, but I

 2     cannot give you answers to questions to which I don't know the answers,"

 3     and this is how I finished with my answers.

 4             After that, there was a more strict conversation.  The tone

 5     changed.  After a while it became a little bit more mild.  He asked me,

 6     actually, what I wanted to do now, and I said that I would like to go

 7     back to my work where I was and from where I was taken away.  And then he

 8     said, "Very well."  He told the others --

 9        Q.   Can I just stop you there and ask you, the Dragan Veselic that

10     you knew before the war, what did he look like?

11        A.   Yes.  He had a moustache and a beard, and he had long, slightly

12     curly hair.  He was tall, thin, brown-eyed.  I even know that he was a

13     vegetarian, because we socialised.  That's why he was very skinny.  He

14     was tall.  I know his face very well from before the war.  So that

15     throughout all the changes -- and the uniform and the shaved face and the

16     shaved moustache, his face was smooth, shaved smoothly, and his hair was

17     cut short -- so because of that, all of those changes, I didn't recognise

18     him.

19        Q.   All right.  Now, were you subsequently taken back to the

20     hospital?

21        A.   Yes, escorted by two soldiers.  They brought me to the car --

22        Q.   And did you stay at the hospital during that next day?

23        A.   Yes.  This was already when I left the SUP.  It was almost dawn,

24     and I think I even asked one of the soldiers what time it was, and they

25     said it was about 4.00 a.m.  So it was already almost dawn.  They

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 1     escorted me to the hospital.  There was no conversation between us.  They

 2     brought me to the door, and they left me there, and I went inside, into

 3     the hospital to my workplace.  When I came to my workplace, one of my

 4     colleagues was there.

 5        Q.   Can I stop you there.  Did you stay at the hospital for the whole

 6     duration of -- for most of that day?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Yes.  And were you at any stage taken out of the hospital again?

 9        A.   This was in the afternoon when Dragan Zivkovic came to my

10     workplace and called me again.  He said that-and-that person, he said,

11     "Who is so-and-so?"  And I said that was me.  I thought the first time

12     that I was brought back the interrogations would be over and that I was

13     finished with that, but when he came to get me for the second time and

14     when I was taken away again to the same place, I understood that this is

15     actually just the beginning of everything that was happening.

16             I left with him.  We went downstairs.  We went to the -- a little

17     bit towards the dialysis department in that corridor.  We stopped there.

18     We waited.  There were another two nurses there, and then again I saw the

19     doctor, the same doctor that was taken away together with me that first

20     evening.  And I told him through the -- they told us that we should enter

21     the doors of the dialysis and go towards them.  And there was one soldier

22     there.  So we went after them.  We followed them.

23             As we were escorted and we were walking past, for the first time

24     I saw a large quantity of weapons in the rooms where the dialysis ward

25     was, and also towards the entrance.  At the entrance itself, I could see

Page 603

 1     that the hospital courtyard was absolutely filled with weapons.  You

 2     couldn't see the courtyard for the weapons.

 3             They told us to sit in the back seat of a vehicle.  I remember is

 4     that Kosta was the driver, because I remember, I know that Kosta is the

 5     husband of one of our nurses who used to work in the -- in one of the

 6     hospital wards.  There was also Dragan Zivkovic.  He was the husband of

 7     one of the nurses who worked in the dialysis section.  So I knew them as

 8     the husbands of these nurses who worked with us.

 9             And then there was the following conversation:  I remember now

10     that I saw the staff in the corridors who had not turned up for their

11     shifts.  They were all of Serb ethnicity.  I could see in the corridors

12     nurses who were supposed to report to work but they did not come.  They

13     were in ironed uniforms.  They looked like models.  They wore make-up.

14     They were very groomed.  They were walking up and down the corridors, and

15     that was the first time that they had reported to work.

16        Q.   Were you taken at that stage back to Luka camp?

17        A.   Yes.  They drove us through the town, and then Kosta, the husband

18     of one of our colleagues, said that he was sorry, that he didn't like

19     what was going on.  He wasn't in favour of that but that he had to do his

20     duty and that he was just the driver and that he did not want to get

21     involved that.  So it was as if he was trying to justify himself through

22     that conversation, and while doing that, he brought us to the same place,

23     back to the Luka, back to the same room.

24        Q.   And who was in the room when you entered?

25        A.   We were told to enter the room.  We entered.  In a corner, there

Page 604

 1     were people in light blue police uniforms.  There was a young man sitting

 2     in that corner, very young, maybe around 25, and another person, a girl,

 3     a very young girl.  They were sitting in a corner, and to the side there

 4     were three or four policemen standing next to them.

 5             They brought us in, and they put us in front of Goran Jelisic's

 6     desk.  We were standing in front of his desk.  Goran Jelisic introduced

 7     himself to us.  He said, "I'm Goran Jelisic, also known as Serbian Adolf

 8     Hitler.  My duty is -- and I've been given the green light, my hands are

 9     free to do whatever I want because Muslims have a lot of children -- my

10     duty is to eradicate the Muslim people.  My duty is to hate Muslims, to

11     hate balijas."  He says he couldn't support balijas, that he was

12     irritated by balijas.

13             Goran Jelisic such started in a somewhat milder tone, but as he

14     went on speaking, he started looking more and more irritated.  He was

15     yelling and shouting while he was delivering his words.  He said a lot of

16     things.  I can't repeat everything.  I can't remember everything.  I can

17     remember just some of it.  In any case, it all boiled down to the hatred

18     of Muslims and that his job was to eradicate Muslims because there were

19     too many of them.

20             He also said, "Don't count on the Red Cross.  Don't count on

21     international organisations.  They were not help you."  He said that he

22     was our god and our lord, and everything that was to happen would be his

23     decision.  He said, "Abandon all hope, because your destiny is in my

24     hands."

25             As he said that, for the first time I realised what he was saying

Page 605

 1     was the truth, that he had the green light to do whatever he wanted to

 2     do, because the way he spoke, he was so assured of himself that I felt

 3     convinced that what he was saying was the truth.  And then I realised

 4     that the circle was full, that it was a death circle and that this would

 5     be our end, the end of us.

 6             He ordered us -- things.  He wanted to prove his power and his

 7     influence.  He ordered a prisoner to be brought from the hangar.  They

 8     brought him.  He ordered us to look in front of us.  They ordered a man

 9     to be brought in.  The man was indeed brought in.  He was pushed into the

10     room.  They pushed him into the middle of the room.  The room was very

11     small, three by four metres big.  Then he ordered -- ordered other

12     policemen to stand up and to encircle this man.  He stood up himself. 

13     They were shouting.  They were shouting insults.  And although my eyes

14     were cast down, I still wanted to see what was going on.

15             They were beating him so heavily.  Those kicks were so forceful.

16     The man was screaming and yelling.  I could see his legs.  And he had a

17     pair of trainers on his feet.  He was a civilian.  They were beating him

18     with animal fierceness.  They were bloodthirsty, and one could hear

19     screams of this poor man.

20             I just can't repeat that.  I'm sure that something -- at that

21     moment something must have happened to me because of all the fear that I

22     felt at that time.  I lack words to explain how I felt at that moment,

23     and I am ashamed, but I have to say that I peed in my pants out of fear. 

24     I'm ashamed to admit that.

25             They were beating this man until he fell to the floor, and then

Page 606

 1     they stomped all over him.  They hit him with rifle butts.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3        A.   And no one could no longer hear him screaming or shouting or

 4     begging for mercy.

 5        Q.   Witness, when this beating was over, what happened?  Where did

 6     you go?

 7        A.   They pulled the victim outside.  He ordered him to pull the

 8     victim outside.  The rest of us stayed in the room.  And after all that,

 9     he told us, "This is just an example of what could happen to you."  And

10     then they ordered them to take us to the room where we would be

11     accommodated.

12        Q.   You were taken to that room?

13        A.   Yes.  It was a small office across from the hangar door.  It was

14     a small room.  We could only sit.  There was no room for us to stretch

15     our bodies.  We gathered in that room.  We stayed there.  We tried to

16     calm down a little, to come to our senses.  We were hoping that this was

17     the end of the ordeal.  However --

18        Q.   Were you in the room with two females and a male?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And were those people Muslim people?

21        A.   Yes.  They -- those people had been brought from the hospital. 

22     The four of us who were brought from the hospital were put into that same

23     room.  They put us in that one room.

24        Q.   Did there come a time when you were taken out of that room?

25        A.   I can't tell you when it happened.  In any case, it was not long

Page 607












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Page 608

 1     before the door was opened.  A solder walked into the room.  He kicked me

 2     with his boot as I was sitting closest to the door.  He was carrying a

 3     huge big torchlight.  I had never seen such a big torch lamp before.  He

 4     point it had in my eyes.  He held it like that for a while and he said,

 5     "Follow me."  I was blinded by the light.  I was touching the walls in

 6     order to see where I was going.  I was walking in front of him.  He was

 7     pushing me from the back, and then he returned me to the room where Goran

 8     Jelisic was, to that same room.

 9             I was taken into that room again.  I was standing in front of

10     Goran Jelisic.  This time I was on my own.  The three others had stayed

11     behind.  Then he first told me that he hated Muslim women, that Muslim

12     women are dirty, that he didn't want to touch a Muslim woman.  He

13     insulted me some more, and then he ordered the others to bring in another

14     nurse.  He repeated the same words when that nurse was brought in.  He

15     was saying a lot of things about women, but what I can remember is that

16     he said that he hated all Muslim women.

17             And then the third nurse was brought in and the doctor.  We were

18     brought in individually, one by one.  Again we experienced the same kind

19     of swearing.  He called us balijas.  He said he would show us another

20     example.  He ordered them to bring another person.  They brought this

21     other person.  They put him in the middle of the room, and again he

22     ordered the others to make a circle around that -- that person, and the

23     same scene repeated:  Screams, beatings, yelling, crying for help.

24        Q.   All right.  Can I stop you there, Witness, please.  After that

25     second beating, were you then taken back to the room where you had come

Page 609

 1     from?

 2        A.   Yes.  They brought me back to that same room.

 3        Q.   And did you stay there for some time?

 4        A.   Yes.  We did not even have enough time to calm down.  It was so

 5     hard.  We were in such a state of shock it was very difficult to calm

 6     down.  We tried to comfort each other as much as we could.

 7             And again after a little while, a soldier came, again kicked me

 8     with his boot, again directed the torchlight into my eyes and ordered me

 9     to go out.  As I stepped out, again I tried to find my bearings.  I

10     thought that I was being taken to the same thing again, to experience

11     another beating.  However, at one moment I was pulled to a different

12     side, to another room.  All of a sudden I found myself in a different

13     room where I saw another desk.  There was a lamp on that desk.  The room

14     was somewhat dark, and I saw a woman lying down on the floor undressed,

15     and there was a soldier above her buttoning himself up, and there were

16     two other soldiers standing next to her.  I just had a glimpse of that

17     scene.

18             I was then pushed behind the desk.  As I was pushed, I fell

19     behind the desk, and two of the soldiers whom I couldn't see properly at

20     that time, I was fighting them.  I was physically fighting them.  I was

21     trying to push them away.

22        Q.   Witness, can I stop you there.  Were you raped in that room by

23     two people?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you tell us the name of those two people, the names of those

Page 610

 1     two people?

 2        A.   Zuco, Makivija Stojanovic, and the third person whose turn it was

 3     to rape me, somebody entered and shouted, "Action, action, quickly." 

 4     They had to leave quickly.  They buttoned themselves up very quickly, and

 5     I remained lying on the ground exhausted, powerless.

 6             Then as I was able to walk, I dragged myself across the corridor

 7     to my room.  When I got to my room -- but before I say that, I apologise. 

 8     I forgot to say while this was happening, I heard a woman's screams.  I

 9     could hear a woman screaming, and when I returned to my room, I saw

10     Dr. Mufti was crying like a little child.  The three of us, the three

11     nurses, we were all crying.  He wanted to comfort us.  He apologised for

12     not being able to help us.  He felt really bad.  He didn't know what was

13     going on.  And in that conversation, he tried to comfort us.

14             He took the shirt off his face -- his body.  There were bruises

15     all over his body.  His body was more black and blue than of normal

16     colour.  He had been heavily beaten, and whenever he moved, his whole

17     body hurt.

18             Then he told us that on the first night when we were taken away,

19     that Ranko Cesic of killed another man and that he had seen it with his

20     own two eyes.  He had seen when this happened.

21        Q.   Now, you remained in that room, didn't you?

22        A.   Yes.  We remained until the following morning.  We couldn't

23     sleep.  There was not enough room.

24             The hangar door opened.  They started taking people out of the

25     hangar.  They would line them in three or four rows.  I could hear

Page 611

 1     Jelisic's voice.  He was loud.  He was shouting.  He would order them to

 2     sing Serbian songs.  He would run through the lines of people with his

 3     pistol.  He was shouting.  He wanted to see whether every single

 4     individual was singing, singing properly.  He was waving his arms.  He

 5     was probably firing his pistol.  I cannot confirm that he killed anybody

 6     because I couldn't see that.  There was a guard watching us all the time. 

 7     But from time to time, we could throw a glance.

 8             He would then return to the hangar.  More soldiers would come to

 9     the hangar.  There was more beatings, shouts, crying, cries for help. 

10     Then they would take people in front of the hangar.  And this all lasted

11     all night.  We could not sleep.  It would continue almost up to the dawn.

12        Q.   Did this continue -- did these types of beatings continue in the

13     evenings that you were detained at Luka?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you please describe for us what your -- apart from those

16     nights where beatings occurred, what your daily routine would be.

17        A.   Yes.  The first thing that happened in the morning was they would

18     order us to go and clean their toilets and the offices.  We would clean

19     blood, bottles, ashtrays full of cigarette butts.  They would order us to

20     clean all that.  That was our first task in the morning.

21             Once we completed that, they would order us to go to a small

22     kitchen.  The kitchen was across the hall from our room.  And then we

23     would be ordered to serve food to the troops.

24        Q.   You said you used to clean offices.  Now, did you ever notice

25     anything in particular when you were cleaning offices?

Page 612

 1        A.   Every day we worked like that.  My colleague and I were cleaning. 

 2     She would take out bottles, and I would dust or clean the blood.  I would

 3     clean the desk, and on one occasion when I was dusting the desk I saw

 4     four or five pieces of paper.  I never paid too much attention to these

 5     papers until one time when I saw that the title "The List of People to be

 6     Executed."  When I saw this title, I just couldn't help myself.  I had to

 7     look.  I was very, very frightened, but I just couldn't help myself.  I

 8     wanted to have a look at that paper.

 9             I had the best look at the first paper.  I spent somewhat less

10     time on the second paper.  However, having read the first paper, I could

11     conclude that this was a list of people, some of them Croats but most of

12     them Muslims.  I can't remember any name.  I did it in a haste.  I really

13     can't remember, but judging by the names, I knew some of these people.  I

14     knew that these people were either prominent, educated, or well-off

15     people.  This is what I could conclude based on that first paper.

16             About 50 people were on that list altogether.

17             I didn't want to dust the desk on that day.  I was afraid that

18     somebody might suspect that I had read the paper.  I didn't want anybody

19     to suspect that I had been in the position to read the list.

20        Q.   Were the people on the list men or women, or do you know?

21        A.   Mostly men.  I don't remember having seen any female names on

22     that list.

23        Q.   Now, after that time, did you become very sick for two or three

24     days and have to remain in the room where you were detained?

25        A.   Yes.  I had problems with my urinary organs.  I had a high

Page 613

 1     temperature.  I suffered a lot of pain.  I couldn't move for two days.  I

 2     can't remember what was happening with me.  I believe I was either

 3     delirious or in a coma.  I didn't know what was going on around me.  I

 4     was just not there for two days.

 5        Q.   And after that time were you raped on a continuous basis by

 6     soldiers at Luka camp?

 7        A.   A colleague of mine, a nurse, obtained some drugs which she gave

 8     to me.  I can't remember much about that time.  I felt somewhat better on

 9     the third day.  I came to, but I only know that I had -- that my hair had

10     turned grey overnight.  I lost a lot of weight.  And the same things

11     repeated after that.

12        Q.   And were you -- up raped again by Makivija Stojanovic, weren't

13     you?

14        A.   Yes.  One afternoon I was ordered to go to the office next

15     door --

16        Q.   It's just sufficient to say yes or no.  You don't need to go into

17     detail.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, after you recovered from your illness, you continued

20     cleaning, isn't you?

21        A.   Yes.  It was terrible.  They forced us to clean their toilets

22     with our bare hands, and the only thing that they gave us was a stick or

23     a broom.  It was terrible.  It was disgusting, but they forced us to

24     clean their toilets with our bare hands.  Monika was in charge of that.

25     She was the one who supervised our work.

Page 614

 1        Q.   All right.  Did you ever have to have occasion to leave Luka

 2     through this period?

 3        A.   When we were done with distributing food to the soldiers, a car

 4     would come with two soldiers in it, and we were told to go to the town to

 5     clean houses for Serbian families who were supposed to return.  There

 6     were usually two soldiers, and there was my colleague and I.  It would

 7     happen in the afternoon.  We would go to these private houses.  There was

 8     a lot of shattered glasses, and we had to tidy those houses so that the

 9     families could move into those houses.

10        Q.   What sort of houses were they?

11        A.   I recognised the houses.  I recognised the furniture in them.  I

12     also could tell by the pictures on the walls that those were Muslim

13     houses.

14        Q.   Did the soldiers say anything while you were cleaning these

15     Muslim houses?

16        A.   Yes.  They told us that we were supposed to clean because it

17     belonged to them.  They said that they were rich and that every Serbian

18     family could have as many as ten houses, but those houses had to be

19     cleaned first.  They said that this all belonged to them and that it had

20     to be made nice and tidy for their families.

21        Q.   After you cleaned houses outside of Luka camp, you subsequently

22     returned to Luka camp, didn't you?

23        A.   Later in the afternoon, the two -- the same two soldiers would

24     take us back.  As we were driving in the car, we had to pass by the

25     bridge, and we had a good view of the Sava River.  I saw four or five

Page 615

 1     corpses floating on the water.  There may have been even more than that,

 2     but I didn't look for long.  I could see parts of the trunks and the

 3     upper extremities, the arms.  Could I see those bodies floating on the

 4     water.

 5             We were then taken back to Luka and brought into the same room.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Karagiannakis, it's close to quarter to four

 7     Would you please find a moment, if this would not be the moment, to have

 8     a break.

 9             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  It's a good moment, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It's good moment.  May I first ask the witness to be

11     escorted out of the courtroom.  Mr. Usher, could you please move the

12     curtains down.

13             Witness, we'll have a break of some 20 minutes.

14             Before we finally will have a break, I would like to ask the

15     attention of the parties, and perhaps specifically of the Defence, on one

16     issue.  The witness has used the word "rape" several times.  As we all

17     know, rape, apart from the meaning in everyday life, also has a specific

18     meaning.  I just would like to inquire from the Defence if it will be

19     contested that when this witness used the word "rape" under the

20     circumstances she described whether it will be contested by the Defence

21     that as a rape apart from the force but as far as the physical acts shall

22     concerned would meet the requirements of the legal concept of rape.

23             Microphone, please.

24             MS. LOUKAS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I can indicate that there's no

25     question arising from the Defence in relation to that question.

Page 616

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that prevents us -- makes it not necessary

 2     to seek confirmation that the physical acts performed would meet -

 3             MS. LOUKAS:  Precisely, Your Honour, and that's why I didn't

 4     object to leading through that particular portion because I thought it

 5     was important that those matters were not dealt with in any particular

 6     detail because it's not a matter, of course, on which there is any

 7     contradiction on the part of the Defence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's good to know, and that -- we'll then

 9     adjourn until five minutes past four.

10                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for the record, welcome back in court,

13     Mr. Stewart.

14             Ms. Karagiannakis, please proceed.

15             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

16        Q.   Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you a series of questions.  It's

17     sufficient for you to say yes or no at the end of each of the questions,

18     please.

19             Did you -- did the daily and nightly events that you've

20     previously described to the Trial Chamber continue throughout until the

21     19th of May, 1992?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And on that day, did two men arrive in a vehicle at Luka camp?

24        A.   On the 19th of May, a vehicle arrived and parked between the

25     hangar and our room.  The driver was Dragan Veselic, and his co-driver

Page 617

 1     was a person in a military uniform, and he had some rank insignia on his

 2     shoulders.  As far as I know, that could only be rank insignia.

 3             Dragan Veselic began to speak with some of these police officers

 4     who were there, so he was just talking to them.  And this military

 5     officer came out, and one of my colleagues came out and called him into

 6     the corridor.  At that point, I went out into the corridor, and we asked

 7     him to come inside so we could talk to him. 

 8             The man entered without any problems, and we were standing in the

 9     corridor and talking about the situation in the camp.  We explained the

10     situation, how horrible things were going on, that this was unbearable,

11     and that we couldn't stand it anymore and that if these really were

12     soldiers, still, we still had some rights.  As it was, it was absolutely

13     without any rules.  Anybody in the compound could do whatever they

14     wanted.  We just requested for some fair behaviour to begin to be

15     applied, because we just asked him, "Please make sure they behave fairly,

16     otherwise, just take your weapons and shoot us.  We cannot stand it any

17     more.  This is destroying us physically and psychologically."  And that

18     man --

19        Q.   Can I just stop you there.  Did you report the rapes you had

20     suffered to this man?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you tell him the names of the people who had raped you?

23        A.   Yes.  I told him then that -- that there were some people from

24     Serbia.  I also mentioned the name of Zuco and Makivija Stojanovic.  I

25     remember these two names.  I forgot Ranko.  I don't know if I did that

Page 618

 1     because I was afraid, but I do know that in the conversation I mentioned

 2     these two names.  And I said that there were also Serbian soldiers there,

 3     and I could tell they were Serbian soldiers because of their accent, the

 4     way they talked, but I didn't know their names, so I just told him what I

 5     knew.

 6        Q.   And after this time did the crimes that were being committed, the

 7     beatings, the murders, and the rapes stop at Luka camp?  Yes or no is

 8     sufficient.

 9        A.   The situation towards us changed completely.  He promised that he

10     would post guards in our rooms and that nobody but him was allowed to

11     enter that room and that nobody would be permitted to mistreat us any

12     more.  He kept his promise, and from that point on, really, nobody

13     disturbed us any more.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you a series of questions.  Yes or no

15     answer should be sufficient.  Were you ever asked to participate in any

16     investigations about the crimes that you had reported to this man?

17        A.   I don't understand what --

18        Q.   Did a policeman ever come to speak to you?  After you reported

19     the crimes to this man, did any policeman ever come to speak to you about

20     investigating the crimes that you had reported?

21        A.   As we were in that room and we were just doing regular everyday

22     tasks like cleaning, serving food for their soldiers, I didn't hear

23     Jelisic's voice there any more.  Kosta Kostic --

24        Q.   Perhaps I wasn't clear.  Do you know whether Makivija Stojanovic

25     or Zuco were ever punished for what they did to you?

Page 619

 1        A.   I doubt it.

 2        Q.   After the 19th of May, was Jelisic replaced by a man called

 3     Kosta?

 4        A.   Yes.  As far as I could see, Kosta was issuing orders to us to

 5     continue with our tasks.  He spent most of the time there.  I didn't

 6     notice Jelisic that much any more.  We didn't hear his shouting around

 7     any more.  On a couple of occasions -- I don't know exactly when, he came

 8     in through the gate.  I guess he was shouting he wanted to come in.  I

 9     guess the guards didn't allow him to do that.

10             On another occasion I don't know whether he was allowed to come

11     in or whether he had jumped over the gate, but he was running from the

12     gate to our room, and he threw himself through our windows, and he said,

13     "Just give me one minute.  Just let me have one minute to strangle these

14     two snakes."  And then this took a while before the guards came.  He was

15     going wild.  He was holding onto the table.  Two or three guards were

16     trying to pull him by his legs to pull him out, but he was resisting

17     them.  So in this struggle they managed finally to pull him outside.

18        Q.   All right.  Now, between the 19th of May and the end of May you

19     were still expected to cook and clean around the camp, weren't you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you were released at the end of May; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you were given a pass signed by Kosta that allowed you to

24     travel around the city of Brcko; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 620

 1        Q.   And after you were released you were taken to a house next to the

 2     SUP in Brcko, and you stayed there.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you stayed there until the 15th of September when you made

 5     contact with the Red Cross and you left Brcko.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, I'm going to ask you, between the time that you

 8     were released from Luka camp and the 15th of September, did you notice

 9     anything about what had happened to the mosques in Brcko?

10        A.   Well, since we were put in this room, we didn't have any food,

11     and hunger made us go out to look for food.  We tried, the women, we

12     tried to get together and then four or five of us went in the direction

13     of my house to try to find some food, because food was a problem.  We

14     didn't do this every day, but every time when we could, we would go and

15     bring something.  Every time hunger made us go out, then we would go and

16     try to bring back something so that we could make it through.

17             Once when we were coming back from our houses, we stopped.  We

18     saw that the mosque opposite from the medical centre was in flames.  It

19     was still burning, and we stopped because we were not able to pass by

20     because the fire was raging and there were parts of the mosque around on

21     the street.  There were some other civilians, passers-by who stood there.

22             Around the mosque there were soldiers, and they were just making

23     comments, and the comments were to the effect that they were glad that

24     the mosque is gone, that it was a thorn in their eye, it was bothering

25     them.  They were laughing.  They were very happy that it didn't exist any

Page 621

 1     more.  And afterwards, when all that rubble was removed, they would plant

 2     the grass or they would maybe make a parking lot there.  So that was the

 3     gist of their comments.

 4             In a short while when the flames had subsided a bit, we continued

 5     towards the town.  We passed by the bijela dzamija, the white mosque. 

 6     That was also demolished.  There was no flame there but you could see the

 7     dust rising around the mosque.  And that's how we made it home.

 8        Q.   One question in relation to this matter.  As you were approaching

 9     the mosque near the medical centre, did you hear anything?

10        A.   Yes.  There was an explosion first.

11             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  Okay.  Your Honours, I'd like to go into

12     closed session for the last part of my questioning.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Would closed session be needed or would private

14     session do us well?

15             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  Private session would be fine.  Well, I intend

16     to show some names on the screen and mention them, so if the Sanction

17     screen is not published outside this room, then I think that would be

18     fine, private would be fine.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That would mean I would then instruct the technical

20     booth not to show the computer evidence on the composite screen, and

21     could we also check that none of the other screens is such that the

22     public could see it.

23             The only matter is that also for you, the public, perhaps could

24     look over your shoulder.  So if you just, for example, for a while use

25     your laptop screen in such a way that the public couldn't see it and then

Page 622

 1     put the other one either off or on the transcript.

 2             The laptop wouldn't do?  Yes.  I'm just looking on whether that

 3     could cause any problem at the other side of the -- I can't see from here

 4     whether there is anyone in the public gallery on the right-hand side from

 5     here.  There's no one on this side.

 6             Then -- I see people moving to the other side.  I'd rather -- I

 7     see that they are sitting in the middle.

 8             Mr. Usher, would you please keep an eye on that, that no one

 9     takes a position in the public gallery from which he could see one of the

10     screens in the courtroom.  And the technicians are then instructed not to

11     show the video evidence on the composite picture.

12             I take it that you also read, so we have to go then into private

13     session with these additional measures.

14                           [Private session]

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

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Page 623












12     Pages 623 to 629 redacted, private session














Page 630

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 6     (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I find it confirmed on my screen now that we

 9     are in open session again.

10             Witness, you'll now be examined by counsel for the Defence.

11             That's Ms. Loukas who will put questions to you.

12             Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

13             MS. LOUKAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

15        Q.   Now, good afternoon, Witness 224.  I want to assure you that I

16     don't intend to refer to your name or any identifying feature.  Is that

17     okay?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, if I say something that you don't understand or that you

20     find yourself needing some time to compose yourself, just let me know. 

21     Is that okay?

22        A.   It is.

23        Q.   Now, I don't have a great many questions to ask you, and

24     hopefully they can be answered fairly easily.  For the most part, I will

25     be just asking you to confirm things you've already said on other

Page 631

 1     occasions.  Do you understand that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. LOUKAS:  Now, Your Honour, if we could just briefly go into

 4     private session so I can raise a question in relation to -- Your Honour,

 5     in relation to the protective measures.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's go into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

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Page 632

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15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

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19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             MS. LOUKAS:  Actually -- actually, Your Honour, before we go back

24     into open session --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session at this moment, Ms. Loukas.

Page 633

 1             MS. LOUKAS:  It's probably a good idea to go back into closed

 2     session.  There's a further matter I want to raise with Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We will now turn into private session.  I take it

 4     that will do.  Yes, that saves us from pulling down the curtains.

 5                           [Private session]

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

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Page 634












12     Page 634 redacted, private session














Page 635

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10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

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15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We're in open session again.

23             MS. LOUKAS:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Now, Witness 224, as I indicated to you before we went into

25     closed session, I will be very careful to ensure that nothing is said

Page 636

 1     that could in any way reveal your identity, and if there are any

 2     questions that I ask that might require that, if you could let me know so

 3     that we can immediately go into closed session.

 4             Do you understand that?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Yes.  And as I indicated previously, I don't have many questions,

 7     and the -- most of my questions will be just getting you to confirm

 8     things that you've said on prior occasions, and I think you understand

 9     that.

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Now, Witness 224, of course you've given evidence previously in

12     this Tribunal.  That's correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And of course the evidence you gave on that occasion was, of

15     course, subject to a solemn declaration as you are today.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And of course on that occasion, you gave your evidence, of

18     course, truthfully.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And of course you gave your evidence accurately.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, at one stage during the proceedings during which you

23     previously gave evidence, do you remember being asked questions by a

24     Judge?

25        A.   I believe I remember that there were questions by a Judge.

Page 637

 1        Q.   And what I will do is I will read out to you slowly the question

 2     that the Judge asked you and then ask you to confirm whether you remember

 3     that question.  Do you understand?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, the Judge in question, Judge Riad, said this to you, he

 6     said:  "Good afternoon.  I'm sorry not to call you with your lady's name,

 7     just a letter, so that nobody would recognise you."  Do you remember

 8     that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And he said to you:  "I'm trying to understand a little bit more

11     some of your statements.  You mentioned that Jelisic declared that he was

12     the man responsible for everything happening." 

13             He then said:  "I'll try to quote it exactly:  That he was the

14     man in charge and that nothing can be done without his permission."

15             The Judge went on to say:  "Now, that was his declaration, but on

16     the ground what were the facts?  Did the facts corroborate this

17     declaration or was it just somebody boasting about his power and, in

18     fact, it was no so strong?"

19             Now, do you remember that question?

20        A.   Can you please repeat the last part and your question.  I could

21     not follow you properly when you were reading.

22        Q.   You couldn't follow the Judge's question that I was reading out

23     to you?

24        A.   No, no.  I couldn't follow you when you were reading.  I couldn't

25     follow you reading from the paper.

Page 638

 1        Q.   Oh, I see.  Do you want me to do it more slowly?

 2        A.   Yes, please.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I'll do it more slowly for you.  Okay.  Do you want me to

 4     take it from the top?

 5        A.   No, not from the very top but when you started reading about

 6     Jelisic and his declaration, what he said when you were quoting Jelisic's

 7     word.  Or maybe, if you find it easier, you may start reading from the

 8     beginning.

 9        Q.   I think it's easier if I just read the Judge's question again and

10     I'll do it extra slowly for you, okay?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   "Good afternoon, Witness.  I'm sorry not to call you with your

13     lady's name, just a letter, so that nobody would recognise you."

14             Now, you indicated already you remember the Judge saying that.

15     That's correct, isn't it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And I'll just read it in little bits.  I think that's the easiest

18     way to do it with you.  Okay.  He then said:  "I'm trying to understand a

19     little bit more some of your statements."

20             Do you understand that portion that I've just read to you?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   Yes.  And then the Judge said:  "You mentioned that Jelisic

23     declared that he was the man responsible for everything happening."

24             Now, do you understand that by the of what the Judge said?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 639

 1        Q.   The Judge then said:  "I'll try to quote it exactly." 

 2             And then the Judge went on to quote you.  Do you understand that

 3     bit?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And this is the bit in quotes that I'm going to read out now. 

 6     "That he was the man in charge and nothing can be done without his

 7     permission." 

 8             Do you understand that portion?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Then the Judge went on to say to you:  "Now, that was his

11     declaration, but on the ground what were the facts?" 

12             Do you understand that portion of what he said?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And then he said: "Did the facts corroborate this declaration or

15     was it just somebody boasting about his power and, in fact, it was not so

16     strong?"

17             Now, do you understand at that last bit of the Judge's question?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, what I -- what I will do for you next is actually read out

20     the answer that you gave on that occasion.  Do you understand where we're

21     up to now?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Your answer was this:  "I believe that this was not boasting at

24     all.  That was my own perception as well ..."

25             Are you keeping up with your answer so far?

Page 640

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   "... And I tried to remain capable of perception.  He enjoyed

 3     killing.  He enjoyed showing his force, showing that he was god; in other

 4     words, that he was our judge, that he decided our fate ..."

 5             Are you with me so far on your answer?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   "... And that he had all the strength and all the responsibility

 8     for everything that was going on in that camp ..."

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   "... And that he was in charge of everything that was going on in

11     that camp."

12        A.   Yes, up until the 19th of May.

13        Q.   Well, first of all, just let me ask you this question:  You were

14     asked that particular question, and of course you remember the particular

15     question from the Judge.  That's correct, isn't it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you gave your answer truthfully on that occasion.  You've

18     already agreed with that; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And of course you told the truth when you answered the question

21     from the Judge.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So when the Judge asked you the question in relation to

24     Mr. Jelisic, you gave that answer and that answer was the truth.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 641

 1        Q.   Now, Witness 224, I'd just now like to take you to the statement

 2     that you've given in relation to this matter.  I think a copy has been

 3     supplied.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Loukas, may take it that paragraph numbers were

 5     added by the Defence.

 6             MS. LOUKAS:  Yes, Your Honour.  We thought it would be easier to

 7     refer to the particular paragraphs in that way.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MS. LOUKAS:  Because it's a rather long statement, of course.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I agree.  It's just for our information.

11             MS. LOUKAS:

12        Q.   Now, first, Witness 224, just in relation to that statement, I

13     think that statement was taken over two days.  Is that correct?

14        A.   What do you mean over two days?

15        Q.   Well, the dates of the interview were the 10th and 11th of

16     November, 1998.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And there was, of course, somebody taking notes in relation to

19     what you were saying.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And of course when you were giving this statement, you realised

22     that the Prosecution wanted your testimony to investigate this matter.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And to find the people responsible.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 642

 1        Q.   And I think, in fact, this was -- and correct me if I'm wrong --

 2     but your first opportunity to give a statement.

 3        A.   November 1998?

 4        Q.   That is correct, yes.  Yes, your first opportunity to give a

 5     statement to the Prosecution at the ICTY.  That's correct, isn't it?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   And of course after what had happened to you and -- you knew it

 8     was important to tell the truth.  That's correct, isn't?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And of course you gave a detailed statement.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And this statement, of course, was taken over two days and took

13     several hours; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you remember, in fact, how many hours it took?

16        A.   Every day it lasted for seven hours or so.

17        Q.   Right.  So the statement probably took around approximately 14

18     hours; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, thereabouts.

20        Q.   And of course what you did was tell the truth about everything

21     you knew; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And of course a careful note was being taken of what you said as

24     you said it.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 643

 1        Q.   And you had a chance to correct things as they were being written

 2     down.  That's correct, is it not?

 3        A.   I'm not sure about the correction.  I'm not sure about your

 4     question either.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Well, you had a chance to read the entire statement when

 6     it was completed.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And before you --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Loukas, may I ask you to clarify the issue on

10     the front page.  I see the languages used.  Could you please ask the

11     witness what she read.

12             MS. LOUKAS:  Certainly, Your Honour.

13        Q.   You will notice on the front of the statement, because I

14     understand that -- that you do some -- you do have some understanding of

15     English -- that's correct, isn't?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And on the front of the statement, it indicates 95 per cent

18     English and 5 per cent Bosnian.  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So in what language was the interview conducted?

21        A.   In English.

22        Q.   So predominantly it was conducted in English; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you can read and write English sufficiently?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 644

 1        Q.   And that's why you decided to give your interview in English; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   It was spontaneous.

 4        Q.   So you actually spoke in English during the interview?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And when you read the statement, did you read it in English and

 7     in B/C/S?

 8        A.   In Bosnian.

 9        Q.   So what basically happened was you gave 95 per cent of your

10     interview in English and -- but when you read your statement at the end,

11     you read the B/C/S version; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And of course you have good reading and writing skills and

14     speaking skills in B/C/S.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, before you signed your statement, you were asked whether

17     everything was true; is that correct?

18        A.   Are you thinking of English or thinking of both statements? 

19     Could you please say that again.

20        Q.   I'm happy for you to answer in relation to both statements.  So

21     when you signed your English statement and when you signed your B/C/S

22     statement, of course obviously you were asked if everything was true; is

23     that correct? 

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And of course you were asked before signing both statements --

Page 645

 1     that is, the English version and the B/C/S version -- you were asked

 2     whether there was anything else you wanted to add.  You'd agree with

 3     that, wouldn't you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And of course when you signed that statement, it was much closer

 6     to the events than we are today.  You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  And of course the interviewers were careful with you. 

 9     You'd agree with that, would you not?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And they allowed your voice, your words, and your story to come

12     out in the statements.  That's correct, is it not?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, going to your statement, there's just some matters that I'd

15     like to take you to in your statement, and I'd like to take you to

16     paragraph 12 of your statement.  Have you got that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Paragraph 12 is on page 3 of the statement, and you have that, I

19     think, Witness 224?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Just in order to avoid whatever misunderstanding,

22     the paging in the B/C/S version is different from the paging in the

23     English version to the extent that what is page 3, because the front page

24     is not numbered in the B/C/S version where it is in English.  Yes.

25             MS. LOUKAS:  Yes.

Page 646

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So paragraphs are clearer.

 2             MS. LOUKAS:  Paragraphs are clearer.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   So in any event, we have paragraph 12.  Is that correct, Witness?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And I just want to confirm with you something you've got in your

 6     statement there that wasn't elicited by the Prosecution in your

 7     evidence-in-chief and I just wanted to confirm that particular sentence

 8     with you.  Do you understand?  Do you understand what I'm saying?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  In that -- in paragraph 12, the first sentence states: 

11     "The next day, Serb wounded soldiers started to arrive."  Do you see that

12     there?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And of course that was the truth.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, there was another aspect I wanted to refer you to in

17     relation to your statement.  So we've just left that issue.  There

18     were -- "The next day, Serb wounded soldiers started to arrive."  And now

19     I want to take you to paragraph numbered -- okay.  Paragraph number 88.

20             Now, Witness, do you have paragraph 88 before you now?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to read that particular

23     paragraph, paragraph 88?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, that paragraph, of course, refers to just after you'd been

Page 647

 1     ill, and you gave evidence of that earlier today.  You recall that; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Could you please repeat which period?

 4        Q.   Well, you gave evidence earlier today about the fact that you

 5     became very ill and, I think, delirious at one point for two or three

 6     days.  Do you remember that, giving evidence of that today?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And of course after you recovered, you gave evidence that you had

 9     to attend to cleaning duties.  You recall that as well; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, in that paragraph, paragraph 88, you refer to "Two soldiers

12     escorting us when we left Luka to work."  Do you agree with that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you said you did not know these soldiers, and you also said:

15     "Sometimes it was the same soldiers, sometimes it was different soldiers. 

16     Do you recall that?  That's what's contained in the statement there.

17        A.   Are you thinking of the escort to go to work?  Perhaps you could

18     allow me read it again.

19        Q.   I will be more than happy for you to read it.  Perhaps it might

20     be good idea to read paragraphs 86, 87, and 88 just to put it in context.

21        A.   Yes, I've read the passages.

22        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  So now that you've read paragraphs 86, 87,

23     and 88, I think you understand the context in which we're dealing with

24     your evidence at this point; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, I understood this last part that you are asking for, but I

Page 648

 1     cannot actually determine as a whole what it is that you're seeking.

 2        Q.   All right.  All I'm asking for you to confirm for me is that the

 3     statement that you made at that paragraph 88, I just want you to confirm

 4     that that's your statement and, of course, that's the truth.  That's all

 5     I'm asking you to do.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So -- and what you've stated there is that you didn't know where

 8     those soldiers were from.  So you agree with that; is that correct? 

 9     Those particular soldiers that are dealt with in paragraph 88.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And I think you also gave evidence earlier today in relation to a

12     man coming to the camp, and after the visit from this man things changed

13     almost immediately.  Do you recall giving that evidence or words to that

14     effect?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So thereafter, the murders, the rapes, and the beatings stopped. 

17     You agree with that?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes.

19        Q.   Now, just in relation to some other matters contained within your

20     statement that I just want to confirm with you --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Loukas, if you turn to other matters, I think

22     it's half past five.

23             MS. LOUKAS:  Oh, it's half past five.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'd like to adjourn until ten to six.

25             MS. LOUKAS:  I'm happy to do that, Your Honour.  I'm moving on to

Page 649

 1     a slightly different topic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you just before the weekend do you think

 3     that -- and I'm not -- I'm aware that the pace is not just determined by

 4     yourself -- do you think that we could finish the cross-examination

 5     before the weekend?

 6        Q.   MS. LOUKAS:  I must say, Your Honour, as far as I'm concerned, I

 7     see no reason not to complete my cross-examination prior to the break.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MS. LOUKAS:  And --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Prior to the break?  The break is now.

11             MS. LOUKAS:  Prior pot break.  Prior to the 7.00 break.  I think

12     as long as the answers are short, we will definitely be finished by 7.00.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  All right.  We'll adjourn until ten minutes to six.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

17             MS. LOUKAS:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Now, Witness, I still think you have the statements in both B/C/S

19     and English before you.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, if you could just go to paragraph 61.  Do you have paragraph

22     61 before you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And I just want to confirm with you a matter that's contained in

25     there in the third sentence.  Can you see, referring to Goran Jelisic: 

Page 650

 1     "He told us he was in charge of the camp.  And anything the soldiers did,

 2     they did because he had ordered it."  Do you see that there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And of course that's the truth.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, I want to take you to paragraph 108.  Do you have that

 7     paragraph 108 in front of you in both B/C/S and English?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And in that particular paragraph, you say:  "As far as I could

10     see, Goran Jelisic had total power in the camp.  The others seemed to

11     obey his orders, and he did what he wanted.  He was the person who

12     determined what happened to the detainees.  He had the power of life and

13     death, and he liked them to know this.  It was part of his fear and

14     power."

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, that, of course, is contained within your statement,

17     Witness.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And it is, of course, the truth.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, Witness, I'd just like to take you to another matter.  I

22     think it was, in fact, yesterday that you referred to a term "vojvoda."

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you remember that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 651

 1        Q.   Now, according to my understanding, that's a term that basically

 2     means duke.  Does your understanding accord with mine?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, additionally you gave evidence today that at one point the

 5     Serb nurses, I think you said -- you said that the, and I'm paraphrasing

 6     here, that the Serb nurses had not turned up and that when they did turn

 7     up subsequently to work that they were dressed like models, with make-up.

 8             Do you remember giving that evidence?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, Witness, I think you've still got the statement in front of

11     you in both English and B/C/S.  If you look at your statement at

12     paragraph 3.  Have you got that statement -- that particular paragraph in

13     front of you?  So you have that paragraph in front of you now,

14     paragraph 3?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Would you look at the last sentence in that paragraph.  What you

17     have there is:  "What was unusual was that many nurses did not show up

18     for work that morning."  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Of course, you say nothing there about the ethnicity of the

21     nurses.  That's correct, isn't it?

22        A.   Nobody asked me.

23        Q.   Well, if I might just take you back to the questions I asked you

24     earlier in my cross-examination.  Before you signed the statement, you

25     were asked if you had anything to add.

Page 652

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And the statement took 14 hours to give.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And of course you'd gone into a great deal of detail in your

 5     statement.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you wanted to give the truth and the whole truth, leaving

 8     nothing out.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   But you just failed to mention in your statement the ethnicity of

11     the nurses that didn't turn up; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And if you cast your mind down to -- cast your eyes down to

14     paragraph 5.  Do you have that paragraph now?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You'll notice in the last sentence of that paragraph the

17     statement:  "Only about half of the staff that was expected to replace

18     the day shift arrived."  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And again, you don't mention anything about ethnicity there;

21     agreed?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, just in relation to your movements while you were at the

24     camp, I take it you were accompanied around the camp; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  Since there was always police or soldiers in the compound,

Page 653

 1     I was always in view of these guards, of the soldiers.

 2        Q.   So you were always in view of the guards and soldiers.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And when you left the camp to clean houses, you were accompanied

 5     by guards?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And at all times when you were in the camp, the guards would not

 8     let you out of their sight, would they?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, you've given in evidence that you saw a document on a table;

11     is that correct?  I think you gave that evidence today.

12        A.   Yes.  Yes.

13        Q.   Was that document that you say you saw handwritten or typed?

14        A.   Handwritten.

15        Q.   It was handwritten.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, I think you indicated previously that you were never out of

18     the guards' sight; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So I take it you're saying it was only for a matter of seconds

21     that you say you saw this particular document.  Is that what you're

22     saying, Witness?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes.

24        Q.   Well, in relation to that document, it's obvious, is it not, that

25     the document, being handwritten, it would have been a little difficult

Page 654

 1     for you to read that document in a matter of a few seconds.  You'd agree

 2     with me, with that; is that correct?

 3        A.   The handwriting was very legible.  It was almost printed by hand. 

 4     I wouldn't say a couple of seconds.  I managed to just look at this page,

 5     just to glance over the names, and the second and third and fourth pages

 6     I had less time to look at.  I spent less time looking at them.

 7        Q.   Now, I think that you said in your evidence earlier today that

 8     you were always in view of the guards; is that correct?  Yes?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that at all times when you were in the camp the guards would

11     not let you out of their sight.  That's correct, isn't it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And yet you say that for a matter of seconds you were able to

14     look through a four-page document, is that correct, in handwriting?

15        A.   Yes.  Since the guard there was standing in front of the door, in

16     front of the building -- actually in front of the entrance to the office,

17     he would never enter after us.  He would usually wait in front of the

18     door.

19        Q.   But I thought you said the guards never let you out of your

20     sight -- never let you out of their sight.

21        A.   Yes, but since this was just a room from where -- I did not have

22     anywhere to go.  When they were outside, they wouldn't let us out of

23     their sight, but when we entered a room to clean it, they would wait for

24     us in front of the door.

25        Q.   So you're now retracting that answer that you gave previously in

Page 655

 1     evidence, are you, that you were never out of their sight?

 2        A.   No being I'm not retracting.  He was at the door.

 3        Q.   So you are retracting your answer that you were never out of the

 4     guard's sight.

 5        A.   I am not retracting my answer.  He was at the door.  He was two

 6     metres away from me and there was just this door separating us from him. 

 7     He could hear every move that we made in that room, and every time we

 8     took something out of that room, we had to pass by him.

 9        Q.   So you're saying you were out of his sight when you were looking

10     at this list.  Is that what you're saying?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So you are retracting the answer that you were always in sight of

13     the guards --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Loukas, the matter has been sufficiently dealt

15     with.  Please proceed.

16             MS. LOUKAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would agree it has been

17     sufficiently ventilated.

18        Q.   And, Witness, I believe you initially said it was a matter of

19     seconds that you had to look at the document, but you now you say it was

20     more than a couple of seconds; is that correct?

21        A.   The time was short.  I can't tell you whether it was two or three

22     seconds.  In any case, my colleague was collecting all the bottles, and I

23     went to dust the desk.  The guard was standing in front of the room.  He

24     wasn't in the room.  That's why I could look at the document.  Actually,

25     first I saw the title.  My one eye was at the entrance.  My other eye was

Page 656

 1     on the document.  I just had enough time to see the last names of the

 2     people on that paper. 

 3             The desk was in a faraway corner.  If the desk was in the line of

 4     vision of the guard, somewhere in front of the room, then the guard could

 5     have seen me.  This is a very small room.  In other words, we were still

 6     in his sight, but he couldn't see us.  The room is small, and the desk is

 7     in one of the corners.

 8        Q.   All right.  You're saying you were in sight of the guards, but he

 9     couldn't see you.  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you agree with me that that's actually contradictory?

12        A.   No, not at all.

13             MS. LOUKAS:  No further questions, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

15             Is there any need to re-examine the witness?

16             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18                           Questioned by the Court:

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 224, I have a couple of points on which I

20     would like to have clarification.  You have told us about the names of

21     some people on a list.  Do you still have that list or could it be given

22     to you again.  That's the six-page list.

23             Could you please have a look at number 36.  You testified that

24     that person -- and you don't have to mention his name at this moment --

25     you see that, 36?  Thirty-six, where the year is indicated as 1932.  Yes. 

Page 657

 1     Have you found it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You testified that this person was killed by

 4     soldiers.  Do you remember that?

 5        A.   The first time?  At the first trial?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, just when you answered questions of the

 7     Prosecution in private session.

 8             Mr. Usher, could you please otherwise show me the list.  It's the

 9     list.  Number 36 appears under ERN number 01038129.  It's page 2,

10     indicated page 2. 

11             Number 36.  You see a name; you don't have to repeat it.  And

12     then there's a year, 1932.  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You testified today that this person was killed by

15     soldiers.  Do you remember that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell me, were you informed about where

18     these soldiers killed this person?  I mean, on the street, in a public

19     building, in his house, in a shop?  Could you tell us without giving

20     further details?

21        A.   At home.  And his sister witnessed the event.  It was in his

22     house, and his sister told me about this event that she had witnessed

23     herself.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.  Could you then

25     please turn to number 50 on that list.  That's the same page, number 50.

Page 658

 1             The fourth from the bottom where a year appears, 1924.

 2             You testified that this person was killed at home, but you also

 3     testified that his body -- it was unknown as to where his body was.  Do I

 4     have to understand this as they took this body, dead body from his home

 5     and it was never found again?  Or could you explain to me, please, the

 6     course of events in that respect. 

 7        A.   His family told me about that, his wife and his family.  They are

 8     still looking for his body, and they don't know where his body is.  They

 9     want to find his body, but so far his body has not been found and nothing

10     is known of the lot of this person.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But did I also understand that he was killed at

12     home?

13        A.   Yes.  The -- his family told me that he had been killed at home.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And then his body was taken by someone?  Or was it

15     buried by other -- what happened that they --

16        A.   They don't know.  They don't know what happened to the body.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they present when he was killed?

18        A.   No.  They only heard that from some other people who had seen

19     that.  That's how they found out.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So the family heard that -- from other people that

21     he was killed at home, and they are not aware of where the body was

22     taken.

23        A.   Yes, and they're still trying to find the body.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much for these answers.

25             Do the questions by the Bench raise any issue that need further

Page 659

 1     clarification?

 2             MS. LOUKAS:  [Previous translation continues]...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness 224, this concludes your testimony in

 4     this Court.  The Chamber is aware that it's not easy to be taken back to

 5     an episode in your life that certainly has not been easy for you.  We are

 6     fully aware of that.  We appreciate that you came and you answered

 7     questions both of the Prosecution and of the Defence and of the Bench,

 8     and we wish you a safe trip home.

 9        A.   Thank you for listening to me and for your participation in all

10     this.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Usher, could you please, after

12     having pulled the curtains down, escort the witness out of the courtroom.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we could deal with the exhibits.  Do I

15     understand well, Ms. Loukas, that the Defence tenders into evidence the

16     witness statement, both in English and in B/C/S?

17             MS. LOUKAS:  That's correct, Your Honour, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And also the transcript of the testimony on which

19     you put to the witness.

20             MS. LOUKAS:  That's correct, Your Honour.  I think it's probably

21     suitable to accord them a different exhibit number each or one for all,

22     whatever Your Honour prefers in relation to that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact, it's what the Registry prefers.

24             MS. LOUKAS:  Sorry, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's what the registry prefers.

Page 660

 1             MS. LOUKAS:  I'm happy to go with whatever the registry prefers,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We admitted the bundle yesterday.  If it's not too

 4     cumbersome for the registry, we could continue with that.  But if we have

 5     to change we'd rather do it now than after a week.

 6             Yes.  We'd like to split them up in this case because the witness

 7     statement should be admitted under seal, whereas the transcript of the

 8     testimony could be admitted open.  So therefore, perhaps, here is a

 9     reason to split them up.

10             Madam Registrar, it would then be for the Defence exhibits.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The transcript will be Defence Exhibit number D3,

12     and the witness statement will be Defence Exhibit D4, under seal, and

13     D4.1 for the B/C/S translation, under seal.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have not asked whether there was any

15     objection, but the rule was that you would object whenever the exhibit

16     would be introduced, so I take it there were no objections.

17             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  No objections, Your Honour.  The only comment

18     was going to be about it being under seal, the statement being under seal

19     because it is not redacted.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it was already under seal.

21             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have another question, and that is we could

23     deal with the Prosecution exhibits especially with the bundle in two

24     ways, either to wait until the rest of the documents would be tendered as

25     well and then to admit the whole bundle or now to separate at this very

Page 661

 1     moment the part that has been put to the witness and then wait what will

 2     -- what will be presented at a later stage.  Any preference?

 3             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  Your Honours, we would seek admission of the

 4     first six pages of the original.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, just the --

 6             MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:  That was put to the witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I didn't hear any objections from the

 8     Defence on any of the exhibits, therefore, they are admitted into

 9     evidence as well.

10             Madam Registrar, would you please guide us through the numbers

11     that have not yet been mentioned and are not yet in the transcript.

12             So all the numbers have been mentioned already before.  This is

13     just to clarify that P29 is just the list of six pages and nothing else. 

14     Yes.

15             Then we still have more than half an hour, so if the -- well,

16     first -- no.  The curtains have to stay down, I think, for your next

17     witness, and I understand that the witness is still available, although

18     it wasn't certain whether we could start with this examination.

19             From the movements on the Prosecution table, I take it that

20     Mr. Hannis, you will examine the next witness.

21             MR. HANNIS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I have on my list that it would be Witness 018.

23             MR. HANNIS:  That's also correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The pseudonym, and that protective measures are in

25     place.  And let me just --

Page 662

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.  Facial distortion and a pseudonym.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that means that the curtains should remain

 3     where they are at this moment and that the witness could be escorted into

 4     the courtroom.  Yes.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I wanted to say good afternoon, but it's

 7     almost already good evening.  We'll wait until the curtains are up. 

 8             I can just inform you that the protective measures in respect of

 9     you are effective.  That means that no one can see your face and that

10     we'll not use your name or any identifying data.  We will address you as

11     Witness 018.

12             Witness, before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of

13     Procedure and Evidence require to you make a solemn declaration.  The

14     text of this declaration will be handed to you now, and may I invite you

15     to make that solemn declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness 018.  Please be seated.

19                           WITNESS:  WITNESS KRAJ-018

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You will first be examined by Mr. Hannis, counsel

22     for the Prosecution.

23             Mr. Hannis, please proceed.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May the witness please be

25     handed the piece of paper.  I don't know if we're giving that a number at

Page 663

 1     this time.  And that will be --

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit number P30, under seal.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I noticed, Mr. Hannis, that there's some difference

 5     in practice in this Tribunal where in some it's just a name given and

 6     others name and date of birth.  I've got no idea whether it could create

 7     any problem in the future, but please check on your witness list whether

 8     it could create any confusion in the future.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  I will, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11                           Examined by Mr. Hannis:

12        Q.   Witness 018, could you please look at that piece of paper before

13     you, and without saying the name, could you please tell us whether that

14     is your name, sir?  Yes or no.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. HANNIS:  May that be returned then and kept under seal. 

18     Thank you.

19             And, Your Honour, for the record this is a witness we have

20     offered to introduce his testimony through Rule 92 bis.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. HANNIS:  And I don't know what procedure the Court would like

23     to follow.  It would be my intention merely to proffer him for

24     cross-examination at this time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  He's available for cross-examination.  On the other

Page 664

 1     hand, the Chamber, if it would be preferred it by the Prosecution to just

 2     ask -- just to introduce it, because this is, of course, a public trial,

 3     and it might be very difficult for the world outside to understand

 4     anything of it, not having read his 92 bis statement, just perhaps to

 5     introduce through four, five, or six very short questions what his

 6     statement is about.  I think that would be a preferable approach, not

 7     that much for the Chamber, but mainly for guaranteeing the public

 8     character of this trial.

 9             MR. STEWART:  With respect, Your Honour, we strongly endorse that

10     approach in favour of as much public information as can be given.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, Mr. Hannis, of course one of the effects

12     of 92 bis is to save time and, therefore, it should really be limited,

13     but giving as much information as possible.

14             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, may I ask a question in that regard?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. HANNIS:  I had proposed the possibility of reading about a

17     page and a half.  That's a summary of his statement that was the

18     description of his statement in another case in which he already

19     testified.

20        A.   That would be a way.  Perhaps in future cases -- I don't not know

21     whether this summary is presented to the Defence first.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, it is part of his testimony in another

23     case which was given to the Defence, and I can refer them to the page

24     number at which it appears, if that will help.

25             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, we're not -- in this particular case,

Page 665

 1     we're not troubled by this proposed procedure at all, and normally

 2     speaking, we -- we don't require to have yet further paper of this type. 

 3     If the summary is, as it's clearly going to be, simply an extract of

 4     various parts which are in the statement, we're perfectly happy with

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course.  That what would be my only concern.  So

 7     if ever such summaries are prepared, I think it would save time if they

 8     are given to the other party so that they can verify whether this is

 9     really a summary of what is in the statement and not anything else.

10             But I take it that the Defence will take the risk at this time

11     that not --

12             MR. STEWART:  Yes indeed, Your Honour.  I just have in mind -- of

13     course if any summary is actually prepared, then naturally we would wish

14     to have it.  Sometimes we understand that just a very brief oral summary

15     may be given without such a statement being prepared.  But we don't have

16     a -- we really don't have a strong objection to that procedure, if that's

17     suitable.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's then proceed.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could interpreters have copies of the summaries

21     since the counsel is going to read.

22             MR. HANNIS:  This is contained in the transcript dated 10

23     December 2003 beginning at page 30215 and going over to 30217.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the Prosecution is invited, first of all, to

25     read slowly if there are no additional copies available, and second of

Page 666

 1     all, to provide additional copies next time if it happens again.  Please

 2     proceed.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Your Honour, this defendant's statement

 4     -- evidence can be summarised as follows: 

 5             Prior to the war, the witness was neither a member of the SDS or

 6     the SDA and had no political affiliation.  Between the night of the 30th

 7     of April and the 1st of May, the bridges were blown up in the Brcko area,

 8     and various Serb paramilitary groups started to carry out an offensive on

 9     Brcko.

10             This witness took refuge in his sister's cellar, and after Brcko

11     was taken by the Serbian forces, those forces came round the various

12     houses.  The witness was taken out of the cellar with the others he was

13     hiding with, and they were separated based on ethnicity.  This witness

14     and his group were taken to the SUP building where he met a JNA captain

15     who ordered them to be taken to the Posavina Hotel.  The man who ordered

16     this separation was known as Dragan.  He had an English-sounding accent

17     and was in charge of the Serb forces who had taken him out of the house

18     and to the hotel.

19             At the Posavina Hotel, he saw four dead bodies out of the window,

20     all of which had been piled on top of one another and were wearing

21     civilian clothes.  They looked as if they had been recently killed. 

22             In the hotel, a man called Goran Jelisic entered the room with a

23     lady called Monika.  Jelisic then started beating up a man.  There were

24     about 25 men detained in the room, and then they were shifted to the

25     hotel terrace.  They were made to stand in two lines, and Jelisic began

Page 667

 1     to beat two of the men.  An older man was thrown amongst the group and

 2     was also being beaten.  When he complained, he was taken out of the group

 3     and shot. 

 4             A Croat amongst the group was released because he was in the same

 5     house as the witness; whereupon, on the basis of being in the same house,

 6     the witness and another Muslim were able to secure his release, and he,

 7     the witness, was sent to the park.  While in the park, the witness was

 8     about 50 metres away, and he turned instinctively and saw Jelisic

 9     standing there with a handgun and he heard a gunfire burst and saw bodies

10     falling.  He was then taken to the SUP building where he was told not to

11     look at anything.  He heard five or six more shots.

12             After answering a few questions at the SUP, he was released.  A

13     few months later, he was arrested and taken to the Batkovic camp.

14             And, Your Honours, that's the essence of his testimony in his

15     written statement, and we would proffer him for cross-examination at this

16     time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart.

18                           Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:

19        Q.   Witness, at some point when counsel was reading that summary, you

20     appeared to be shaking your head.  Is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Was there something in that summary that you didn't agree with?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And what was it?

25        A.   When I saw the bodies -- in that toilet, there is no window

Page 668

 1     there.  There is just a door leading to the courtyard where those corpses

 2     were lying about.

 3        Q.   All right.  You've got your -- do you have your statement in

 4     front of you?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6             MR. STEWART:  Yes.  Can the witness be given his statement,

 7     please.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  And, Your Honours, I've handed him a copy with

 9     paragraphs numbered.  I have an English version numbered as well, if the

10     Defence counsel would like to use.

11             MR. STEWART:  That would be very helpful.  I've numbered my own,

12     but I would be interested to see whether they do tally.  If Mr. Hannis

13     and I have done what we should have been doing, then they will.  Thank

14     you. 

15             I'm delighted to say, Your Honour, that Mr. Hannis and I have

16     each done our homework satisfactorily, because right down to the number

17     29, the numbering matches.  Thank you for that.

18        Q.   Witness, would you look at paragraph 3, please.  Do you see that

19     on the first full page?  Do you have that?  In English it begins with: 

20     "The war in Brcko began with the blowing up of the bridges ..." We're

21     looking at the same page, are we?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   There's a tiny error there, because it talks about "over the

24     night of the 31st of April."  Well, in that year, as in every other year,

25     there's no such date.  You mean the 30th of April to the 1st of May. 

Page 669

 1     That's obvious, is it?

 2        A.   Yes, it must be a typing error.

 3        Q.   You then refer to the blowing up of the bridges and then you say:

 4     "By the 4th of May, the Serbian offensive was complete and the Serb

 5     forces occupied Brcko up to the river, Brka," if that's how it's

 6     pronounced. 

 7             In the summary that Mr. Hannis gave just now, he referred to Serb

 8     paramilitaries.  You'd agree that here we're talking about Serb

 9     paramilitary forces.

10        A.   I can explain.  On the 4th of May, 22 different types of armies

11     entered Brcko.  There were paramilitaries, there were volunteers, and

12     there were also the reservists of the JNA.  At the same time, the active

13     troops who were in the Brcko garrison had been removed, and they were

14     some 20 kilometres away from the town.  And while Brcko was being

15     occupied by all these armies, they were also there.  They returned.

16        Q.   The total number of men at the -- normally at the JNA garrison at

17     Brcko was about 50, wasn't it?

18        A.   I don't understand your question, sir.

19        Q.   The size of the garrison, the number of soldiers who were

20     normally at the JNA garrison at this time in early 1992 was around 50,

21     wasn't it?  Or perhaps you don't know.

22        A.   I have to explain this to you.  In the JNA garrison in Brcko

23     where the JNA troops were, officers still remained, and those who had

24     arrived in order to keep peace in town.  It is these very people that

25     started making trouble in the town.  And then things ensued from that --

Page 670

 1        Q.   Excuse me.  Witness, Witness, I'm going to stop you for the

 2     simple reason that you're not answering my question, which is what I wish

 3     you to do.

 4             Do you know -- not exactly, but do you know roughly -- how many

 5     soldiers were normally stationed in the JNA garrison in Brcko in March

 6     and April 1992? 

 7        A.   In March and April, there was nobody but officers, the only

 8     exception being the month of April when a captain came from the military

 9     police and some specials came with him.  I wouldn't be able to give you

10     the exact number.

11        Q.   So -- well, don't give us the exact number if you can't, then.

12             Can you give the Tribunal the rough number?

13        A.   No, I can't.

14        Q.   Ten?  Twenty?  A hundred?  A thousand?

15        A.   Well, their number changed.  Some left; some came.  It was very

16     difficult to know how many of them there were at any given time.

17        Q.   How long had you lived in Brcko in -- by April 1992?

18        A.   From the day I was born.

19        Q.   And what's the population of Brcko?

20        A.   It's mixed population.  It's mixed.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... What was the total population

22     in numbers in Brcko in 1992, roughly?

23        A.   In 1992, the municipality of Brcko had about 43.000 inhabitants.

24        Q.   You see, what I suggest to you, Witness, is that you must have

25     some idea of the rough size or rough numbers stationed in a garrison in

Page 671

 1     the centre of Brcko where you had lived for many years.  So tell the

 2     Tribunal, please, as best you can, what that rough number was.

 3        A.   The Brcko garrison, up to that period, had about 1.000 soldiers,

 4     conscripts, approximately, and maybe there were between 50 and 100

 5     officers.

 6             In 1991, the entire garrison was relocated.  The soldiers were

 7     moved from town, but the kitchen remained which prepared their food, and

 8     every day the trucks would -- the food would be taken by trucks to the

 9     place where the soldiers were relocated.

10        Q.   So from what you're taking, it -- the conclusion seems to be that

11     there was a very small number of men left at the Brcko JNA garrison by

12     April 1992, and according to your evidence, they were only officers.  And

13     by a very small number, perhaps I can suggest that it sounds from your

14     evidence as if we're perhaps talking about a couple of dozen or something

15     like that.

16             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour --

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. HANNIS:  -- I think in witness's testimony he said fifty to a

19     hundred officers.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but -- I understand from the question, but

21     there seems, then, to be some confusion in that you now asked how many

22     men, not officers.

23             MR. STEWART: It's a slightly different confusion, with respect,

24     Your Honours, because his evidence, as I recall it, was that at the time

25     when there were about a thousand soldiers and conscripts there may be

Page 672

 1     between fifty and a hundred officers.  That Your Honour, that was -- He

 2     was talking about a different time.  I'm simply putting to the witness --

 3     it's not my evidence -- a suggestion that he can agree with or disagree

 4     with.  I'm not saying he has given that specific evidence.

 5        Q.   I'm inviting your agreement, Witness, that the number officers

 6     left at the Brcko garrison in April -- sounds from your evidence that it 

 7     was probably about a couple of a dozen.  But if it was more as you

 8     remember it, please say so.

 9        A.   I can say specifically for that period, because I was born there,

10     and I would pass by there on my way to work and on my way back from work,

11     so I'm going back to it again.  In 1990, according to my estimate,

12     perhaps there were about 1.000 conscripts there and maybe 50 or 70

13     officers.  In 1991, when the conflict broke out with Croatia, the

14     garrison and the recruits were relocated, and I can even tell you where. 

15     They were moved to Pelagicevo Obudovac, which is about 20 kilometres

16     outside of town on the road to Banja Luka.

17             The officers who remained at the garrison, perhaps there were

18     about 20 or 30 of them, I don't know exactly.  And the kitchen -- that

19     was the service which was supposed to prepare the meals for the

20     soldiers -- they operated there, and they had the number of staff that

21     they needed in order to work.  I didn't enter the compound.  I could just

22     look over the fence, through the wire fence.

23             Then with the arrival of the special units, the arrival of the

24     military police, that is now something else, and we could talk about

25     that.

Page 673

 1             We were talking about the recruits of the JNA and the officers

 2     who worked with them and who were in command.

 3        Q.   You -- you mentioned that there were 22 different military or

 4     paramilitary groups as part of the forces which, according to you,

 5     launched some sort of offensive into Brcko in April 1992; correct? 

 6     Twenty-two was your number.  Please -- please --

 7        A.   Not April.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... Correct.  Is what I put to

 9     you correct or not, as you --

10        A.   Not in April.  This was on the 4th of May.

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... Early May.  Early May.  My

12     mistake.  End of April, early May.  You talk about the 1st of April,

13     first spate of bombing, and then the next few days; correct?  So 22

14     different groups you mention, correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, I'd like to know -- well, first of all, is this number of 22

17     the result of your logging the different groups that you saw during that

18     period?

19        A.   Let me give an explanation.

20        Q.   No, please answer my question first.

21        A.   I was --

22        Q.   Did you yourself at that time over that actual period, did you

23     yourself make some sort of note or tally or log of the different groups

24     that were entering or launching an offensive in Brcko in early May?

25        A.   No.

Page 674

 1        Q.   So where do you get the number of 22 from?

 2        A.   When we were being taken in, I could see all these various types

 3     of uniforms, and I just counted them.

 4        Q.   You just counted -- so you counted yourself, personally, did you,

 5     22 different types of uniform?  Is that what you're saying?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And did you note them down with pencil and paper as you counted

 8     them?  I'm sorry, I missed your answer.  Or perhaps you didn't give one.

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   So do you have -- do you have a brain and a memory which without

11     noting down on pieces of paper enables you to tally up in your head

12     different uniforms and come to a specific figure like 22?

13        A.   No, I am not so stupid that I don't know how to count.

14        Q.   No, no.  Witness, please understand, I wouldn't be so offensive

15     to suggest that you can't easily count up to and beyond 22.  We're

16     talking about an entirely different exercise, and perhaps I will give you

17     the opportunity to explain a little bit more generally, then.  What is

18     process by which you came to this figure of 22?

19        A.   Well, I told you, by the uniforms; uniform of the reserve police

20     officer is different from an active police officer.  A uniform of an

21     active soldier and a reserve solder is different.  A uniform of a member

22     of the special forces and just a person who actually bought the uniform

23     on the street and put it together, they're different.  Uniforms of

24     Chetniks with the insignia on them, different insignia are all different. 

25     So from my house to the SUP building I saw all these uniforms, and I had

Page 675

 1     the opportunity to count them.  The distance we're talking about is some

 2     500 metres.

 3        Q.   The distance from where to where?

 4        A.   From the place where we were assembled to the SUP building where

 5     we were taken.

 6        Q.   I'm sorry.  So what is -- just explain; what is the significance

 7     of the distance of 500 metres in relation to your ability to tally up the

 8     22 different uniforms?

 9        A.   The operation to take over the town began on the day that the

10     bridges were destroyed.  That's when various formations began to arrive

11     at the town, and they were accommodated or billeted in the barracks

12     compound and in other places.

13             On the 4th of May, the main offensive was launched to take over

14     the town, and from all sides they came in, from the side of Bijeljina;

15     actually from all sides, except the side which is across from the Brka

16     river and leads to Banja Luka.  They captured the town on the 4th of May,

17     and then they stopped because --

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... We will come to this,

19     perhaps, but at the moment that does not appear to be at all directly an

20     answer to the question I asked, so may I come back to that. 

21             Would you now be able to reconstitute, if you thought hard about

22     it, would you be able to reconstitute your list of 22 different uniforms?

23        A.   I just gave you a few examples of uniforms, what they looked like

24     and what the people looked like.

25        Q.   My question was whether you would now, if you had a bit of time,

Page 676

 1     would you be able to reconstitute, draw up again your list of 22 -- it

 2     was a mental list, of course, according to you -- but would you be able

 3     to list those 22 uniforms if you were given a little time?

 4        A.   Well, I can explain it to you, and I can tell I right away.

 5             Again --

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... I'm asking you at the moment,

 7     please, it would be very helpful, Witness, in the first place answer as

 8     directly as possible the specific question I ask.  Is it yes or no: 

 9     Would you be able, if you were given a little time, to draw up again now

10     that list of 22 uniforms?

11        A.   Why not?

12        Q.   Right.

13        A.   I could do that, for sure.

14        Q.   Right.  Good.  In that case witness may I suggest --

15             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, may I say that I do have one very

16     brief matter, nothing to do with the evidence, that I would like the

17     opportunity of raising in about two minutes.  So if I were to invite the

18     witness to, over the -- we have an adjournment now until Tuesday, we have

19     a long weekend.  If I were to invite the witness to do that exercise,

20     between now and Tuesday, so I can pursue that line of cross-examination

21     when the Tribunal reconvenes on Tuesday.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Usually, Mr. Stewart, if we ask the witness to do

23     something out of court, it is usual that the Chamber asks the witness to

24     use this kind of exercise.

25             MR. STEWART:  With respect, Your Honour, may I through the

Page 677

 1     Tribunal invite the witness to do that exercise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please write down the 22

 3     different types of military men or uniforms, the list of 22 you spoke

 4     about, could you write them down over the weekend and perhaps then

 5     present it to the Chamber when your cross-examination will continue. 

 6     Would you be willing to do that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  No problem.  I can do that. 

 8     I can also explain it orally what each one of them looked like.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, then perhaps we leave that to

10     Mr. Stewart, whether he would seek any further explanation on that.  And

11     the Chamber, of course, will also look at your list.  But you're invited 

12     to do that over the weekend.

13             Is there another issue, Mr. Stewart?

14             MR. STEWART:  There is.  It neither concerns the witness, but nor

15     would it be at all embarrassing for the witness to be sitting there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

17             MR. STEWART:  May I say, Your Honour, there was no discourtesy

18     intended and my invitation was the way I am familiar with doing it.  But

19     I now understand the correct courtesy and that's the way I will channel

20     my requests in future.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mainly for outside court activities.

22             MR. STEWART:  Well, for outside.  I shan't ask permission for

23     every question, Your Honour.  That would slow things down. 

24             May I also add this:  I'm sure that -- well, I'm confident the

25     Tribunal will endorse this -- if it could be made clear to the witness

Page 678

 1     that in drawing up this list he is to consult nobody else.  He is to do

 2     it himself.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I always instruct witnesses at the end when they

 4     leave the courtroom when we adjourn not to consult.

 5             MR. STEWART:  I know Your Honour does.  I was thinking

 6     specifically of this task, with the temptation.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, the point I wish to raise is only

 9     this, and it arose earlier on.  It has to do with the public nature of

10     the proceedings, because Your Honour -- and we on the Defence side

11     endorse this 100 per cent -- Your Honour and the Chamber were adamant

12     that, if at all possible, the Court should sit if public session and not

13     private session, and at the 65 ter meeting that was emphasised.  We

14     adhere to that and endorse it 100 per cent. 

15             Although we understand the practical reasons why often if, for

16     example, in a previous case evidence was given in private session, at

17     least that raises the distinct possibility that it might be appropriate

18     to continue, Your Honour could we say that we don't -- we submit that it

19     doesn't follow automatically.  It doesn't.  It shouldn't justify an

20     enormous review.  But, Your Honour, we would -- on the Defence side --

21     Mr. Krajisnik on these charges is, as I'm sure Your Honour will accept

22     100 per cent, entitled to the most public trial that is possible.  So we

23     do invite the Tribunal and this will be the Defence's position, that any

24     question of going into private session at any point must have a specific

25     justification.

Page 679

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Only the other hand, you know that the Rules

 2     provide for automatic extension of protective measures in other cases.

 3             MR. STEWART:  Of course.  In relation to protective measures we

 4     understand that completely, Your Honour.  That's part of the mechanism,

 5     and we don't --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let me just be short.

 7              From the mere fact that you convinced us or that we convinced

 8     ourselves that we should first look in the transcript of the testimony

 9     and see whether it could do any harm, we took that effort in order to not

10     unnecessarily go into private session on an issue where it would not

11     directly follow from the protective measures in effect.  And I think

12     that's the approach you can expect from the Chamber, generally.

13             MR. STEWART:  I'm much obliged, Your Honour.  There doesn't seem

14     to be anything between us on that matter.

15             I have nothing more to add this evening, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Anything else more to be raised before the weekend,

17     Mr. Hannis?

18             MR. HANNIS:  No, Your Honour, thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, it's Friday evening, 7.00.  We'll adjourn

20     for the weekend, but since this Chamber will not sit next Monday, you're

21     expected to come back on Tuesday, next today at 9.00 in the morning, not

22     the same courtroom, but you'll certainly be guided to Courtroom II, where

23     we will sit.  

24             You are instructed not to speak to anybody about your

25     testimony -- nor outsiders, nor parties -- and I specifically ask you,

Page 680

 1     when you're making that list of 22, not to consult anyone but just to do

 2     it on your own memory.

 3             We will adjourn until Tuesday, the 10th of February, 9.00,

 4     Courtroom II.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of

 7                           February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.