Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1452

1 Tuesday, 24 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Is the Prosecution ready to continue examination of Mr. Treanor?

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, would you please be so kind to bring

13 Mr. Treanor into the courtroom.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Treanor.

16 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Although it might sound as a routine, of course, it

18 never will be a routine when I remind you --

19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm getting --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you--

21 THE WITNESS: -- the wrong language here.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you're still on 0 instead of 4. Is that ...

23 Yes. Mr. Treanor, I said that although it might sound as a routine, of

24 course, it never could be a routine when I remind you that you're still

25 bound by the solemn declaration.

Page 1453

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You made at the beginning of your testimony.

3 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, if I might

5 address the Court briefly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

7 MR. TIEGER: I gave some consideration to the Court's comments

8 yesterday and to the possibility of adopting an approach that might move

9 us more expeditiously through this process. In that connection, I wanted

10 to note that in addition to selecting documents from an enormous mass of

11 material to be identified for the Court, Mr. Treanor also identified

12 segments or highlights of those documents which merit particular attention

13 and should be brought to the particular attention of the Court. That

14 process, of course, should be used to assist the Court in assessing these

15 large volumes of information. It occurred to me that we might, therefore,

16 move through the highlighted segments that Mr. Treanor has identified in a

17 manner somewhat similar to the fashion that we have approached the

18 intercepts with multiple segments, and that is to move through them

19 serially, to pause at each one in the event that Mr. Treanor wished to

20 make a comment, or alternatively, to run through the entire case of the

21 intercepts, entire clips, in the case of the documents, the entire

22 highlights, and then invite his comments at the end. In that manner, the

23 Court has the benefit of viewing those portions of the document that

24 Mr. Treanor has previously indicated warrant such attention. That will

25 assist the Court not only in the process of this examination, but in

Page 1454

1 reviewing the document subsequently, and we will be able to take advantage

2 of the considerable work that Mr. Treanor has invested before assuming the

3 stand.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's one difference between the intercepts

5 and the portions of documents, Mr. Tieger, and that's the following: When

6 we are listening to the intercepts, for those who speak English, the text

7 appears. For those who do not speak English, they can listen to what has

8 been said, and therefore, under these circumstances, we could just ask

9 Mr. Treanor to give his comments. But if we're looking at documents, of

10 course, the Chamber could read usually even more quickly than Mr. Treanor

11 than reads a specific part. So therefore, if it was just for the Chamber,

12 we could -- we could just hear the comment of Mr. Treanor and that would,

13 under normal circumstances, be sufficient, because we can read the text,

14 but the public character of this trial requires that not only the Judges

15 understand what it's all about, but also that those who are following this

16 trial also can understand what it's all about. So therefore, I asked for

17 the specific, I would say, the -- in one or two lines just the main

18 content of that part of a document, without it being read out in total.

19 So I -- of course, the Chamber certainly is assisted by the

20 investment in understanding these documents made by Mr. Treanor and by

21 explaining, but one of my concerns is how we could move forward with such

22 speed that we don't lose any time, and at the same time, a guarantee that

23 the public will be aware what we are talking about.

24 MR. TIEGER: I share the Court's concern in that regard, Your

25 Honour, and I did not intend to suggest that we would move through the

Page 1455

1 highlighted portions so quickly that they would not be identified in a

2 sufficient manner.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's try and see where we get. Please

4 proceed.


6 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

7 Q. Mr. Treanor, at the conclusion of yesterday's session, you were

8 discussing the October 24th founding session of the Serbian Assembly, and

9 I believe you had reviewed and discussed the introductory remarks of

10 Mr. Krajisnik. If we could move, then, to the next highlighted segment.

11 MR. TIEGER: That can be found on page 38 of the English

12 translation of the October 24th assembly.

13 Q. Here we see Mr. Kostic speaking, and you have highlighted the

14 first two -- first three full paragraphs contained on page 39 of the

15 English translation.

16 A. Yes. Is it my understanding that the Court and others in the

17 courtroom will now be reading these highlighted portions?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just move to the right button. I think

19 if we -- if you try to give -- we read it, and at the same time you could

20 give, in very short terms, what this portion is about. Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: I would just like to say that the speaker at this

22 point, according to the -- a correction on the record that I have and

23 another record we have of this session is in fact Mr. Stanko Cvijan, who

24 is the minister for relations with Serbs outside of Serbia of the Republic

25 of Serbia. In his address here, he expresses his support and approval of

Page 1456

1 what the Bosnian Serb delegates are doing and reviews the sufferings of

2 the Serbian people as a whole in the past and the revival of their

3 political fortunes in the present.


5 Q. If we could turn to the next clip. Highlighted on screen are the

6 latter two paragraphs. Are those also embraced by the explanation you

7 just provided?

8 A. Yes, indeed. And the Court will note the -- a reference to the

9 genocide committed during World War II in this passage. That will come up

10 later in this session.

11 Q. If we could turn to page 44 of the English translation, the next

12 highlighted portion. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the last full

13 paragraph of the English translation at page 44. I believe the speaker is

14 Mr. Koljevic.

15 A. Yes, that's correct. This is Mr. Koljevic speaking now, in a --

16 in fairly lengthy remarks. In this portion, he speaks of the desire of

17 the Bosnian Serbs to create a new Yugoslavia, one that suits them, and

18 notes that even outside of the type of Yugoslavia they have in mind, over

19 at least half a million Serbs will be left outside of that new Yugoslavia.

20 Q. The next highlight is found at page 47 of the English translation.

21 And we'll continue on to page 48. Can you tell us who that speaker is and

22 why you highlighted that portion.

23 A. Speaking at this point is Dr. Karadzic. In his remarks, he

24 addresses what he sees as a plan by outside forces, which is indeed coming

25 to fruition, to dissolve Yugoslavia. He makes reference, I think in the

Page 1457

1 previous paragraph -- well, in this paragraph, to the same plans, the same

2 villains, and the same crimes. Again, this is a reference to the genocide

3 during World War II, which he seems to be suggesting is also being planned

4 in the present.

5 Q. Now, on that same page, page 48, there are the last three

6 paragraphs of that page, comprising most of that page are also highlighted

7 and if you can explain their significance, please.

8 A. In this portion of his speech, Dr. Karadzic in general is saying

9 that the Serbian people now knows its path forward, but emphasises that

10 they have never been the ones to take the first step, that they have, in

11 effect, always responded to moves that were first made by others. I think

12 this is a theme that we have seen in some of the earlier documents where

13 Dr. Karadzic refers to waiting for other people to make the first move and

14 then they will respond to that move as they have already planned.

15 Q. If we turn to page 49, the next page of the English translation.

16 You have highlighted the first paragraph of that page. And would you

17 explain its significance, please.

18 A. This is more on the theme of the -- theme of the revival of the

19 Serbian people.

20 Q. And the historic step to which Dr. Karadzic refers?

21 A. I think at this point he is referring to the establishment of the

22 Assembly.

23 Q. Dr. Karadzic also refers in this segment to the shattering of last

24 illusions, to discerning between friends and enemies and to the refusal to

25 allow traitors to deliver us into the hands of our enemies. Are these

Page 1458

1 themes that will be repeated in subsequent speeches by Dr. Karadzic and

2 other Bosnian Serb leaders?

3 A. Yes. I think we will see similar thoughts occurring from this

4 point in, certainly.

5 Q. Next highlighted segment can be found on page 50 of the English

6 translation. First of all, is this still Dr. Karadzic speaking?

7 A. Yes. And here he gets back to the theme of the outside forces

8 working for the destruction of Yugoslavia.

9 Q. I believe the remainder of the highlighted sections of the

10 founding assembly refer to decisions made during the course of that

11 assembly. If we could --

12 A. Yes, that's correct. This session of the assembly made several

13 very important decisions.

14 Q. Looking at page 77 of the English translation, is that one of the

15 decisions to which you referred?

16 A. Yes. Here we see the portion in the record that records the

17 election of Mr. Krajisnik as president of the new Assembly, Assembly of

18 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 Q. And it's -- I'm sorry.

20 A. This and the other decisions were published in the Official

21 Gazette, which the Assembly also founded.

22 Q. The next highlighted segment appears beginning at the bottom of

23 page 79 of the English translation and continues onto the first half of

24 page 80. Page 80 is now shown on your screen, Mr. Treanor. If you could

25 explain that, please.

Page 1459

1 A. Yes. This is a decision on the remaining of the Serbian people of

2 in BH within Yugoslavia, and as you can see in paragraph 1, refers to the

3 composition of the Yugoslavia, that they are anxious to remain within.

4 Basically, the Serbian portions of Yugoslavia. And I would call attention

5 to paragraph 2, which states that this decision comes into force only

6 after being confirmed at the plebiscite to the Serbian people, which we've

7 referred to yesterday, and this Assembly adopted a decision of holding

8 such a plebiscite at this session as well.

9 Q. Turning now to pages 81 and 82 of the English translation, do we

10 see further decisions made during the course of that assembly?

11 A. Yes. This is a decision on designating representatives for the

12 Serbian people of BH, as we discussed yesterday, pursuant to the actions

13 of the BH Assembly, which the Bosnian Serbs -- of October 15th, which the

14 Bosnian Serb delegates, that is, the SDS and SPO delegates, regarded as

15 being illegal and illegitimate. They were anxious to have their own

16 representatives in various forums. The people they have designated as

17 representatives in the different forums are listed here. I think further

18 down we'll see that Dr. Karadzic is designated as a representative for the

19 SFRY Presidency. Yesterday I referred to the -- one of the resolutions

20 adopted on October 15th by the Bosnian Serb Assembly, which in effect

21 withdrew Bosnian representatives from the federal institutions, including

22 the Presidency. Reference was made yesterday to Mr. Bogicevic, who was

23 the Bosnian member of the Federal Presidency, who attended a session of

24 that body for the last time on, I believe, October the 1st, and thereafter

25 withdrew his participation, in conformity with the resolution adopted on

Page 1460












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1461

1 October 15th. And it seemed to be the intention here of the Assembly of

2 the Serbian People that Dr. Karadzic, in effect, take his place in the

3 SFRY Presidency.

4 Q. The final highlighted segment of the October 24th founding

5 assembly is found on page 85 of the English translation. In the second

6 half of that page, as Mr. Cancar speaks about the plebiscite, if you could

7 illuminate that, please.

8 A. Yes. This is the portion in the record of the session at which

9 the -- this particular resolution is read out and then put up for

10 adoption. This is the resolution calling for the plebiscite. If we could

11 stop for a minute and go back a bit to paragraph 2, I would call the

12 Court's attention in particular, in paragraph 2 to the quoted portion,

13 which is the question which will be put to people at the plebiscite.

14 You'll recall the decision of the Assembly that we saw earlier about

15 remaining within Yugoslavia that -- and that decision itself was made

16 contingent on its confirmation at the plebiscite, which here is scheduled

17 for the 10th of November.

18 Q. Mr. Treanor, that completes the highlighted segments for the

19 founding assembly. Before we move on to the next document, if you have

20 any additional comments about the assembly itself or the context in which

21 it occurred, I invite you to make them; otherwise, we'll move on.

22 A. Maybe I'll just repeat what I said yesterday. This is an

23 extremely important event in the development of the policy of the

24 leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party. Here we have formed, in

25 effect, the Chamber of the Serbian People, which, as we have seen from

Page 1462

1 previous documents, they had been seeking for over a year. This body has,

2 certainly in their view, much more legitimacy than, for instance, the

3 Serbian National Council, which we referred to, which was formed a year

4 before and which had a rather short-lived and not too eventful existence.

5 This body is composed of deputies to the duly elected Bosnian Assembly,

6 that is, deputies elected in the elections of 1990; therefore, duly

7 elected representatives of that body, unlike, say, the Serbian National

8 Council, which was self-created. And they have announced their intention

9 that -- I don't know if we're going to be showing this document, but they

10 also adopted a resolution on their own founding, that is, the founding of

11 the Assembly, in which they define this new Assembly as the highest

12 representative and legislative organ of the Serbian people in BH.

13 From this point on in the presentation, we will -- for quite some

14 time, we will in effect be moving from session to session of this

15 Assembly, which, from this point on, is the main forum for decision-making

16 by the SDS leadership and the Bosnian leadership -- Bosnian Serb

17 leadership as a whole.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document can be found at

19 tab 54, in binder 4. I'm not sure you have that binder, and it may need

20 to be distributed.

21 Q. Mr. Treanor, we see on screen a document entitled, "Decision for

22 the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina to remain in the joint state

23 of Yugoslavia," dated 24 October 1991.

24 A. Yes. This is -- appears to be, and I judge by the Arabic

25 numeral II in the upper left-hand corner, a translation of this decision

Page 1463

1 as it appeared in the Official Gazette of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina. The first issue of which was published on the 15th of

3 January, 1992. This is basically the same text that we saw in the record

4 of the session.

5 Q. The next document is found at tab 55. This document now displayed

6 on screen, Mr. Treanor, bears the title, "The Sarajevo SDS order." It

7 bears a date of October 29th, 1991, and the place is Celinac. If you

8 could address its significance, please.

9 A. Yes. This document reflects instructions which Dr. Karadzic gave

10 at a meeting on the 26th of October, 1991, in Banja Luka, a meeting

11 apparently of the leaders from the Autonomous Region of Krajina. And it

12 reflects his -- some of his concerns at this particular point in time. I

13 would call attention to the highlighted portions which deal with the

14 familiar -- by now familiar issue of mobilisation. In paragraph 8, we see

15 the reference to building licences, again a reflection of their concern

16 about -- I think of their concern about non-Serbs moving into Serb areas,

17 something we've seen before. Reference again to any paramilitary

18 organisations, that is, irregular armed formations, brought under control

19 or disbanded.

20 Q. And the reference to transfer into the territorial army, is that a

21 reference to the territorial army --

22 A. That's a reference to the Territorial Defence, which is the -- one

23 of the mainstays of the Yugoslav defence system. I don't know if I need

24 to elucidate on that, what the Territorial Defence is. That is a reserve

25 force, if I can put it that way, which was organised within each republic

Page 1464

1 on various levels within the republic, responsible -- all units in the

2 republic responsible to a republic Territorial Defence staff which was

3 funded by the Ministry of Defence of the given republic, and the

4 Territorial Defence was organised in units all the way from republic, they

5 had their own regional structure, regional staffs, down to municipal

6 level, and it included mobile units as well as stationary units in

7 particular factories, other institutions, for the site defence of those

8 facilities.

9 Q. And for the record, before leaving that document, first of all,

10 identify the person who signed or sent the fax.

11 A. Yes. This was sent by Mr. Brdjanin, who we have already referred

12 to several times. He was, in fact, the first vice-president of the

13 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and here he's described as

14 being the coordinator for implementation of decisions. I would draw

15 attention to one other paragraph in the order, simply because it's a

16 concern that comes up in a later document, paragraph number 5, which

17 refers to taking power in public enterprises, et cetera. I think we'll be

18 seeing expressions of concern on Dr. Karadzic's part in a document we'll

19 see very soon in that area.

20 Q. And so the record is clear, the highlighted portions include

21 numbers -- enumerated sentences and instructions numbers 1, 2, 8, and 12.

22 Number 1 to form commands and institute permanent watch immediately;

23 number 2, to institute full mobility of the territorial army; number 8, to

24 postpone issuance of building licences, et cetera; and number 12, the

25 excerpt related to the paramilitary formations in the Territorial Defence

Page 1465

1 that you referred to earlier.

2 If we could move, then, to the next document, which is an

3 intercepted telephone conversation which may be found at tab 19 of the

4 intercepts binder. This is a conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and

5 Dr. Karadzic.

6 A. Yes, that's correct. And they discuss what they perceive to be

7 the main tasks before them at the present time.

8 [Intercept played]


10 Q. Mr. Treanor, you began to identify the reasons for your selection

11 of that intercept before it was played. If you could continue, please.

12 A. Yes. As we can see here, once again, there are problems

13 restraining -- there appear to be problems restraining the enthusiasm of

14 other people within the SDS, and Mr. Krajisnik identifies as being the

15 main task the smashing of centralism within BH and establishing control by

16 the Serbs over their own territory. The two of them seem to agree that

17 they are -- they have their path marked out and they don't want to be

18 diverted from it by premature or overenthusiastic moves by other people in

19 the leadership.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Before we move on, I was just wondering if it could

21 be clarified what is the actual date of the conversation. Because what

22 appeared on the screen appeared to have a date of the 29th of October, and

23 the hard copy has the 10th of October.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you would compare the B/C/S original and the

25 English translation, then you see that the dates are different where --

Page 1466

1 although I do not speak any B/C/S, where, in the heading, it says a

2 conversation on the 10th of October in English, where the original says

3 the 29th of October.

4 Mr. Tieger, is this a translation error or ...

5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I was just about to identify that

6 discrepancy and ask the witness if that was simply a typo in the

7 transcription from B/C/S to English, or otherwise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please ask the witness.

9 THE WITNESS: Well, about all I can say is that in my copy of the

10 B/C/S, it says the 29th of October.


12 Q. And from the context, Mr. Treanor, do you have any reason to think

13 that the B/C/S date, or the -- is incorrect and that the English

14 translation -- or that the date appearing in the English translation is

15 anything other than a typographical error?

16 A. At this point I don't have any reason to believe that it's

17 anything other than the 29th.

18 Q. Mr. Treanor, if we could move next to a speech given by

19 Dr. Karadzic in November of 1991, entitled, "Plebiscite of the Serbian

20 people."

21 A. Yes. This is a speech which I believe in fact was given on the

22 31st of October, which was a Thursday, at a meeting which we know took

23 place from various diaries we have at 4.30 in the afternoon in the Holiday

24 Inn in Sarajevo. It was a meeting related to plebiscite issues. And

25 internal evidence in the document indicates that it was given before the

Page 1467

1 1st of November, and there are references to certain television

2 appearances and whatnot that took place around the time we're referring

3 to, the very end of October. And as I say, the diaries indicate that

4 there was a meeting related to this topic on the afternoon of the 31st.

5 So I believe that the speech was given then. In the speech, Dr. Karadzic

6 addresses the general situation within BH and then moves on to address

7 particular issues in connection with the plebiscite and the conducting of

8 the plebiscite. Present at the meeting, from internal evidence, are

9 municipal officials from around BH. Whether they are both party and state

10 officials isn't specified, but I would presume so, and there would include

11 state officials from the municipalities in which the SDS was in power and

12 party officials, at least from those in which it was not in power, but

13 anyways, the people who were going to be responsible for conducting the

14 plebiscite on the ground.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, as the members of the Chamber seem to

16 be aware, this is found at tab 56 of binder 4.

17 Q. Mr. Treanor, if we could move to the first --

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one thing, Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, at least I've been provided also with

21 the CD-ROM on which it seems that most of these documents appear, but I

22 can find some of them on the basis of the numbers on the bottom or on the

23 top of the page. But some of them, I can't find on that CD-ROM. I don't

24 know how the numbering is done. But, for example, the document under

25 tab 56, I see on the bottom 0027 and then 0630. But I can't find that on

Page 1468

1 my CD-ROM, and I think it's a very helpful instrument if you -- some of

2 the other documents I could find. For example, the transcript of the

3 telephone conversation we just listened to. I find that in the numerical

4 order as it appears on the index, but ... Could someone guide me how to

5 find 55 and now 57?

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't have a key with me at the moment

7 that would permit me to answer that specific question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you could prepare that perhaps during the next

9 break, because some of them, they're quite easily to be retrieved, where

10 others -- for example, here, 57, I find no numbers that give me a clue

11 where to find it on the CD-ROM.

12 Please proceed, and we'll solve the matter during the next break,

13 I take it.


15 Q. Mr. Treanor, if we could move to the first highlighted segment,

16 which is a sentence contained -- or it's the portion of the third full

17 paragraph on the first page which begins, "This is Broz's legacy."

18 A. Yes. What is important here is, in particular, the sentence about

19 the Muslim brothers, which indicates Dr. Karadzic's attitude, something of

20 his attitude toward them at this point.

21 Q. The next highlighted segment appears in the first paragraph of

22 page 4 of the English translation and begins: "I am kindly asking you, I

23 have seen it not only in Krajina but also in Pale, you should seize power

24 completely and energetically."

25 A. Yes. Now, here's a reference to the point that I mentioned

Page 1469












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1470

1 earlier in the -- we saw in the 29 October fax. Here he's referring to

2 the -- his perception that in the municipalities that the SDS controls,

3 they haven't gone far enough in putting their own people into the various

4 positions, in particular, in public enterprises that those municipalities

5 control. He seems to think there are too many holdovers from the

6 communist period who are not loyal to the SDS and that sort of thing, and

7 therefore enjoins his people, as in the 29 October fax, of his

8 instructions of the 26th of October, to address themselves to this area,

9 as he puts it here, to seize power completely and energetically.

10 Q. If we could turn to page 5 of the English translation. The first

11 highlighted segment is the fourth paragraph of that page, which

12 begins: "There is a chance that we will fight. In that case, let the

13 chips fall where they may."

14 A. Yes. In this portion, Dr. Karadzic refers to his belief that the

15 Serbs are better armed than their opponents and makes remarks as to what

16 he foresees could be the consequences should hostilities actually break

17 out in Bosnia.

18 Q. And he -- he indicates that no one could stop the almost half a

19 million soldiers who could be mobilised and armed?

20 A. Yes, I believe it says that.

21 Q. The next highlighted segment is found in the last paragraph of

22 that page and continues on to page 6.

23 A. Here Dr. Karadzic refers to some of the demographic concerns of

24 the Bosnian Serb leadership, in this case, in particular, the influx -- or

25 they perceive to be an influx of immigrants, Muslim immigrants from

Page 1471

1 outside of Bosnia.

2 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one thing: One time it says

3 "immigrants," another time is says "emigrants." Is that a mistake or did

4 you check that? It seems to be more logical in the context that it's

5 about immigrants, but ... You see in the first line of this paragraph, you

6 see "immigrants," whereas on the third line, you see "emigrants."

7 THE WITNESS: The original is not extremely legible. Perhaps I

8 should leave that for the break and I could try to identify those words.


10 THE WITNESS: -- in the original.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed.


13 Q. And if we could continue with that highlighted portion on the top

14 of page 6.

15 A. Here we see a reference to the land issue again.

16 Q. And in that passage, Dr. Karadzic indicates that no Muslim

17 foundations will be laid in Serb areas, whether or not, "Turks are

18 imported, because the first foundations will be blown up and all

19 foundations that are laid will be blown up," is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If we could turn next to the next highlighted segment, which

22 appears in the same page, page 6, and begins: "They are implementing a

23 demographic policy here, but we will be implementing one too, and the

24 whole world will understand that."

25 A. Yes. This is more on the demographic concerns of the Bosnian Serb

Page 1472

1 leadership, the land issue is referred to again and mention is made of a

2 battle for living space and the fear that, within ten years, in BH, the

3 Muslims would have an absolute majority in BH. He also refers to what he

4 perceives as the discrimination that Serbs are subjected to, in

5 employment, for instance.

6 Q. And that's a reference to the passage where Dr. Karadzic refers to

7 75 per cent of the doctors are Muslims and 75 per cent of the cleaning

8 women are Serbs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The next highlighted segment can be found at page 7. It is the

11 latter part of the third full paragraph, beginning: "But there has to be

12 a little discipline once the policy is established."

13 A. Yes. Well, this is Dr. Karadzic, as party leader, once again,

14 enjoining discipline and hard work on the part of his subordinates.

15 Q. You indicated previously he was addressing various municipal

16 leaders, among others. Does he identify for them who the leaders of the

17 Bosnian Serbs are who are working on the project he's describing?

18 A. Yes, indeed. He singles out his leadership team, if you will,

19 including Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic, and Mr. Krajisnik, and the deputies.

20 Q. Next highlighted segment can be found on page 8 of the English

21 translation. That appears in the last paragraph of that page and

22 begins: "We no longer need an obsolete type of state," and ends, "But if

23 we don't manage to, the ladies will, excuse the expression, mark our

24 territory like dogs then nothing will come of it."

25 A. Yes. The theme of this passage is getting control by the Bosnian

Page 1473

1 Serbs of their own territory.

2 Q. And in connection with control of that territory, does

3 Dr. Karadzic go on to speak about identifying that territory with maps,

4 and can that be found on page 9 of the English translation?

5 A. Yes. Now, here we see a reference, indeed, to maps and the

6 plebiscite. There's a reference to the blue map. Now, I'm not positive

7 which map is being referred to; however, I believe that what is in

8 question here is an ethnographic map of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was

9 produced, I believe, in Belgrade, on the basis of the results of the 1991

10 census. On that map, the predominantly Serb areas of BH are shown in

11 blue, and the visual impression of the map overall is rather one of

12 blueness. So I believe that's why he describes it here as, "The blue

13 map."

14 Q. And this is the highlighted segment that begins: "There will be

15 huge interest in our plebiscite," and in which Dr. Karadzic indicates that

16 he took the blue map to the military and said: "Here is a map for you so

17 that you can -- so that you know where you can spend the night. Wherever

18 it is blue, you can spend the night; in the other parts, there is no

19 staying overnight there," followed by applause?

20 A. Yes. Indeed, the reference in the previous passage to what is

21 ours is ours is perhaps connected with this, could be put as whatever is

22 blue is ours.

23 Q. And if we can turn to the next highlighted segment, which begins

24 in the second paragraph of that page and continues to the bottom of the

25 page and on into page 10.

Page 1474

1 A. Yes. This is a long discussion of -- to the municipal officials,

2 on how they should conduct themselves, and especially in the area of

3 defence.

4 Q. Does he indicate who the commanders of the towns are?

5 A. He describes the presidents, I believe he's referring to the

6 presidents of the municipal assemblies as the commanders of the towns.

7 I'm not quite sure how true that was technically under the Territorial

8 Defence set-up.

9 Q. And that passage continues on to the beginning of the next page,

10 page 10.

11 A. And here we see, at the end of the previous passage, reference to

12 regionalisation, and here we see a reference to the plebiscite of 1920 in

13 Carinthia. This was an analogy that they frequently use when describing

14 their own plebiscite. In 1920, after the World War I, and in pursuance

15 the various treaties that were concluded after that war, a plebiscite was

16 held among the Slovenes in the Austrian province of Carinthia as to

17 whether they wanted to join Yugoslavia. They voted against joining

18 Yugoslavia and remained in Austria, which Slovene nationalists would say

19 turned out to be to the detriment of their national identity. However,

20 this brings up the use of the word "plebiscite" in connection with the

21 polling that they're going to be taking. As we saw in an earlier

22 document, for instance, Dr. Karadzic telling Mr. Brdjanin that, no, no, we

23 don't need a referendum. A referendum is for people that want to leave

24 Yugoslavia. We're not leaving Yugoslavia. We're staying. And anyways,

25 in a referendum, you need a two-thirds majority.

Page 1475

1 So I think that they deliberately did not call this a referendum,

2 but rather a plebiscite in order to distinguish it from the procedure that

3 was specified in the constitution for changing the boundaries, for

4 instance, of BH, via a referendum that required a two-thirds majority.

5 Q. The next highlighted segment appears in the first full paragraph

6 of page 10 and begins: "The right is in our hands and so is the factual

7 situation, and the factual situation is that it will be impossible for

8 Izetbegovic to establish his authority in 70 per cent of the territory."

9 A. Yes. This is another indication of the extent of the SDS

10 leadership's claims to BH territory. Yesterday we saw reference to 65

11 per cent. I think I promised that we'd see that figure again. I think we

12 will, but here we see 70 per cent.

13 Q. And the next highlight appears further on in the page, at the

14 beginning of the second full paragraph, and discusses the army and the

15 fact that their aims and our aims, according to Dr. Karadzic, coincide 100

16 per cent.

17 A. Yes. This is reference to the -- what he sees as the strong

18 military position of the Serbs. They have the army behind them, and the

19 Serbs have been asking for weapons for themselves. And as he said, they

20 got themselves a lot.

21 Q. And the final clip of the plebiscite speech can be found on

22 page 11 of the English translation. In the first full paragraph, and

23 begins: "So I am asking you, there are two big jobs, two big tasks," and

24 concludes: "If you look at the map, we have a huge territory in BH, a

25 huge territory."

Page 1476

1 A. Yes. Well, here we see the -- two of the themes in the speech

2 joined: First job, get the plebiscite done, and after the plebiscite, get

3 to work on consolidating power in the municipalities that they control.

4 He, in this speech, advised that it wasn't such a good idea right before

5 the plebiscite to get people all excited about the fact that they may be

6 losing their jobs, and this, that, and the other thing, that is,

7 present-day directors and those sorts of officials, and thereby arouse

8 opposition just before the plebiscite, at a time when they want to keep

9 things peaceful and on an even keel and get as large a turnout as

10 possible, but to what until after the plebiscite to carry on with the

11 consolidation of power.

12 Q. Mr. Treanor, the next selection is an intercepted telephone

13 conversation which occurred after the date of the plebiscite but refers to

14 it. Do you want to address the results of the plebiscite before we begin

15 that intercept or after it's played?

16 A. Well, let me find my report of the plebiscite. I think this would

17 be a good time to do that, indeed. Now, the plebiscite took place, in

18 fact, on the 9th and 10th of November. I think there were various

19 international observers present, that sort of thing. It was a big

20 occasion. The plebiscite was, of course, meant to reinforce the stand

21 taken by the Bosnian Serb Assembly against the decisions carried out

22 against its will of the BH Assembly in relation to the status of BH. The

23 plebiscite and its results got to be a mantra for the Bosnian Serb

24 leadership. In the months to come, they referred continuously to the

25 plebiscite and its results as enjoining on them a particular policy, that

Page 1477

1 is, the remaining of the Serbs of BH within Yugoslavia, a policy mandated

2 by the people.

3 Now, the voting for the plebiscite was carried out in almost every

4 municipality in BH. In fact, every municipality apparently. Voting was

5 done according to -- first of all, according to nationality. Serbs voted

6 separately from non-Serbs. Some non-Serbs did vote. Also people who

7 lived outside of BH but came from BH were permitted to vote. And some

8 people were permitted to vote who were not in fact registered voters in BH

9 but presented ID cards at the polling stations to identify themselves. And

10 they voted as well.

11 In total, 1.162.032 citizens of Serbian nationality voted

12 according to the report of the plebiscite commission dated the 11th of

13 November. Of that total, 1.161.146 voted in favour of the plebiscite

14 question, that is, in favour of remaining in Yugoslavia. And providing

15 that their math is correct, that meant for the benefit of the Court, to

16 spare them the subtraction, that 398 people voted against, and there were

17 488 invalid ballots.

18 The tally for people of Serbian nationality outside of BH who

19 voted is similar, even more overwhelming. Out of 348.231 people, only two

20 voted against. Similarly, out of 49.342 citizens who were not of Serbian

21 nationality and voted in the plebiscite, a total of 397 voted against and

22 there were 50 invalid ballots.

23 So the plebiscite seemed to provide overwhelming support,

24 certainly among the Bosnian Serbs, for the position adopted by the

25 Assembly, that is, that they would remain within Yugoslavia.

Page 1478












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1479

1 Q. If we could turn now to an intercepted telephone conversation --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]


4 Q. -- which may be found at tab 20 of the intercept binder.

5 JUDGE CANIVELL: Excuse me. I want to call your attention to the

6 fact that in the records it's been said that the total of citizens that

7 voted was 1.136.000 and then those that voted yes was 1.161.000. That

8 means 25.000 more -- or the number of the voters. That seems to have been

9 a mistake. Would you please verify that? Has been something that was

10 not well understood by Mr. Treanor.

11 THE WITNESS: Certainly. Just to repeat, Your Honour. The number

12 of citizens of Serbian nationality who voted in the plebiscite according

13 to the report of the plebiscite commission was 1.162.032. The number --

14 JUDGE CANIVELL: That's a mistake here, because it appears to have

15 been 1.136.000, and now you had said 160 something, so perhaps that's --

16 there is a written mistake.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm looking at the original documents, so I don't

18 know what might be on the translation.


20 Q. Just to repeat for the record, Mr. Treanor: The last

21 clarification you offered indicated 1.162.032 voting total, and the number

22 of voting for the proposition was 1.161.146. These are the citizens of

23 Serbian nationality.

24 JUDGE CANIVELL: So that has clarified that. Thank you.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1480

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I add something to that. I would not have

2 intervened if there would have been no confusion. What Mr. Treanor tells

3 us could be said in one or two lines, that is, that an almost hundred

4 per cent vote in favour by the Serbian voters and in the far smaller

5 number of non-Serbian voters, it was also close to a hundred per cent.

6 Without the details, whether there were 32 invalid votes or 72 invalid

7 votes, of course, is not really something that assists the Chamber. Could

8 we try to concentrate on what the main issue is, the main issue is

9 overwhelming, almost hundred per cent in favour of. That's, I think that

10 assists us. The other parts, as we've seen now, even could lead to a lot

11 of confusion. Please proceed.

12 MR. TIEGER: Next, Your Honours, is the intercept I referred to

13 earlier, found at tab 20 of the intercept binder, and that is a

14 conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Dukic.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is a conversation which is undated, but

16 described as taking place in November 1991. Now, from internal evidence

17 in the conversation, I believe it took place on or shortly before the 15th

18 of November. The conversation relates to the scheduling of certain

19 meetings in connection with the upcoming session of the -- the 2nd Session

20 of the Assembly of the Serbian People. One of those meetings is a meeting

21 of the Main Board, as you'll see from the clip. Now, at the time this

22 conversation took place, that meeting had not taken place at that part of

23 the point of the conversation. We have a written invitation to that

24 meeting which was issued on the 15th of November. So therefore, I would

25 conclude that this conversation took place before that invitation was sent

Page 1481

1 out, but shortly before.

2 [Intercept played]

3 THE WITNESS: This document is one of a series of documents, some

4 of the others of which we will be seeing. It was -- I suppose I should

5 have mentioned earlier it was preceded by a conversation between Mr. Dukic

6 and Dr. Karadzic about Mr. Dukic's interest in having a Main Board

7 meeting, and Dr. Karadzic, I believe, says, well, you should talk to

8 Mr. Krajisnik about that since we have an assembly session coming up.

9 To remind the Court, Mr. Dukic was the president of the Executive

10 Committee and one of the jobs of the Executive Committee was to prepare

11 materials for meetings of the Main Board. He refers to the fact that the

12 Main Board hasn't met for over a year. I think by that he means that

13 there has not been a session of the Main Board as such in over a year. I

14 think I referred to that earlier in my testimony, that a lot of the

15 meetings that took place were various groups of individuals meeting in

16 large numbers, and not necessarily a meeting of any particular body. He

17 wants to have a Main Board meeting in preparation for the assembly. He

18 incorrectly states that 50 per cent of the members of the Main Board were

19 members of the Assembly. I think that the number is more like a third.

20 But with that, I can we can move on.


22 Q. The next two documents you've selected, Mr. Treanor, are a

23 November 20th meeting of the Executive Board and a November 21st meeting

24 of the Main Board. If we could turn to the first, which is found at

25 tab 57 of binder 4.

Page 1482

1 A. Yes. These are minutes of the sixth session of the Executive

2 Board. The interest of this document and the next document, which is a

3 Main Board -- minutes of a Main Board meeting, is we can see the

4 progression of the discussion of matters from the Executive Board to the

5 Main Board, and from there, to the Bosnian Serb Assembly itself, where

6 they were finally adopted.

7 Q. You've highlighted on page 2 of that document a paragraph which is

8 labelled "count 2," and discusses the materials for this third session

9 that were discussed, including the report of the plebiscite, information

10 about the activities regarding regionalisation, and so on.

11 A. Yes. These are the materials that have been prepared for the Main

12 Board meeting. Further on in that paragraph, the minutes of the Executive

13 Board note that it was concluded that the Assembly of the Serbian People

14 should make a decision on the proclamation of the constituted, that is,

15 formed, regions, which relates to one of the reports that was -- on

16 regionalisation that was going to be -- that would be put before the Main

17 Board.

18 Q. In tab 58 of binder 4, the record of the November 21st, 1991 Main

19 Board session is found.

20 A. Yes. Now, this -- these minutes do not state which session of the

21 Main Board this was. However, as we just saw in the previous excerpt from

22 the minutes of the Executive Board, this was the third session of the Main

23 Board. I'll just remind the Court: The new Main Board was constituted in

24 July 1991. I'm not sure when they start the numeration of meetings of the

25 Main Board, but even if we begin in July, there hadn't been more than two

Page 1483

1 meetings before that. Mr. Dukic had referred to a period of a year. So

2 certainly it was a fairly rare event.

3 Q. And you've highlighted the last sentence of page 1, which

4 continues on to the next page and reflects a recommendation by the Main

5 Board that the Assembly -- and then it continues on the next page: "Adopt

6 a decision that all settlements where the Serbs declared themselves in

7 favour of staying in Yugoslavia," and so on. Would you explain that.

8 A. Yes. That's correct. This is a recommendation based on the

9 results of the plebiscite. We'll be seeing that decision as it was

10 adopted at the assembly session, which in fact took place the same day, to

11 get a better idea of exactly what that decision is about. Further on in

12 this page we see reference to the recommendation that was made by the

13 Executive Board about -- concerning a decision on the Serbian regions. So

14 in this case, we can see that this decision, as I indicated earlier, a

15 recommendation has moved from the Executive Board to the Main Board, and

16 the Main Board is now passing it on to the Assembly.

17 Q. And for the record, that is the passage -- or the paragraph that

18 begins: "The Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party in Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina recommends that the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina adopt a decision on the proclamation of Serbian regions."

21 If we could turn, then, to the next document, found at tab 59, the

22 second assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, held on

23 November 21, 1991.

24 A. Yes. This is the second session of the Assembly. The main work

25 of this Assembly was to review the results of the plebiscite and hear a

Page 1484

1 report on the results of the plebiscite. It also adopted certain

2 decisions, one of which was in fact a decision on the verification of the

3 Serbian autonomous districts that had been proclaimed. It also adopted a

4 decision on those territories which were to be considered territory of the

5 Federal State of Yugoslavia, as foreseen in the Main Board minutes. It

6 also elected a constitutional commission, or a commission for

7 constitutional questions, of the Assembly, whose task was to draft a

8 constitution for the incipient Bosnian Serb entity, and it elected the

9 various members of that commission, one of whom was Mr. Krajisnik.

10 Q. In that session, you've highlighted two sections of an address by

11 Mr. Krajisnik. If we could turn to those quickly. The first is found on

12 page 7 of the English translation and appears immediately after he says:

13 "Ladies and gentlemen," and then says: "I am convinced that these are

14 crucial times for the survival of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, and I would dare say, even more broadly, when it comes to the

16 Serbian people as such."

17 A. Yes. This -- his address as a whole deals with the efforts of the

18 Bosnian Serb leadership, the SDS leadership, to preserve the common state

19 of Yugoslavia to keep all the Serbs, or most of the Serbs in BH within the

20 same state as the other Serbs in Yugoslavia.

21 Q. And the second highlighted portion is found at page 12 of the

22 English translation, in which Mr. Krajisnik states: "Traitors and

23 outcasts are the most difficult opponents. We would like to send the

24 following message to all those who falter, or are neutral, weak, or

25 misguided," et cetera. "Today you still have time, tomorrow will be too

Page 1485

1 late."

2 A. Yes. And that comes at the -- almost at the end of his fairly

3 lengthy address.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I note the time. Perhaps the Court

5 would wish to break at this point.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this would be a suitable time for you, we'll

7 have a break of 20 minutes. We'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I think I had two smaller

11 questions, one about, Mr. Treanor, that concerns you: Immigration,

12 emigration.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. The good news is that the

14 same word is used in the B/C/S in both places.


16 THE WITNESS: It is a B/C/S word. It is not from the Latin root,

17 immigration or emigration. I would, and the translator, at least at one

18 time, did translate the word as "emigrants," that is, people leaving an

19 area. That's all I can say on that issue. It is the same word used in

20 both places.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE ORIE: That was the good news, I think you said.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. The bad news is it's emigrants. It seems like

24 it should be immigrants.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's rather illogical in the context, you would

Page 1486

1 say.

2 THE WITNESS: It would seem to be.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I can add to that.


5 MR. TIEGER: There's a tape of that speech. It was listened to

6 over the break. I am advised but we'll double-check when there's more

7 time, that the person who listened to it heard both words used, the

8 word "emigrant," with an E, used the first time, and the word "immigrant"

9 used the second. I know that's not necessarily a helpful clarification.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's the other way around as we read it in the

11 transcript. Because there it starts with immigrant and only in second

12 phase we have emigrant with an E. And the first time it was immigrant

13 with an I. So that even complicates matters. Well, it might not be

14 pivotal for the case as a whole, but if you could clarify the issue even

15 further, that would be great. Because now we've got so many versions. We

16 have one immigrants, emigrants, then we have emigrants, immigrants, and

17 then we have the version in the B/C/S language which two times gives

18 emigrants. It's a bit confusing.

19 MR. TIEGER: I agree, and when time permits this afternoon, we'll

20 review it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then my second question was about the file numbering

22 on the CD.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we're somewhat handicapped because

24 the -- our technical wizard is sick today, but I believe that -- well,

25 we'll certainly either replace the CD and ensure that all the documents

Page 1487












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1488

1 that the Court needs are contained in a single CD, or we will modify it to

2 include the documents that don't appear there. I don't think it's a

3 problem, however, with the Court's manipulation of the CD itself. I think

4 it's a problem with the content of the CD, and we're addressing that at

5 the moment.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because what I noticed, just for your

7 information and for the moment when your technical person has recovered,

8 what I see, that sometimes a number -- for example, in the transcripts of

9 telephone conversation, a number is indicated on the bottom of the page,

10 that number appears on the English translation, but if I find that number

11 on the CD, I find the corresponding B/C/S version of that same telephone

12 conversation. But many of them I cannot find at all. But we'll wait and

13 see, because CDs should assist us and not bother us.

14 MR. TIEGER: Absolutely, and we'll do our best to investigate.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 Mr. Krajisnik.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

18 interpretation.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's good that you warn us. Let's first check

20 whether --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've just got it. I've just got it.

22 My apologies.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you miss, Mr. Krajisnik, what was said before, or

24 was it just a short moment, or was it the whole of the conversation since

25 we started after the break that you missed?

Page 1489

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the beginning. But I don't

3 need for any repetition. I will continue listening to the proceedings.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just briefly inform you that we first discussed

6 the issue of emigration, immigration, and the information given to the

7 Chamber was still a bit confusing. And the second thing we discussed was

8 how to find on the CD-ROM that was provided to the Bench the files,

9 because I have some difficulties in finding them. That's what we

10 discussed, nothing else.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Treanor, you referred earlier to a number of decisions that

14 were made at the second assembly session of the Serbian People of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina. If we could run through those very quickly. It may be

16 that no additional comment is necessary, but we should identify those for

17 the record. The first is found on page 21 of the English translation, and

18 it is a decision on the adoption of the report on the plebiscite of the

19 Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20 A. Yes. And I would call attention to paragraph II here. At the

21 end, it indicates that in view of the results of the plebiscite, the

22 decision of the Assembly of the 24th of October, relating to the remaining

23 of the Serbian people of BH within Yugoslavia, is -- has entered into

24 force.

25 Q. The second is found at page 25 and is a decision on the

Page 1490

1 municipalities, local communes, and settlements where the plebiscite was

2 held.

3 A. Yes. This is a decision based on the results of the plebiscite,

4 which seeks to define those areas which shall be considered to be the

5 territory of the Federal State of Yugoslavia. At the beginning of the

6 paragraph, we can see that it enumerates municipalities, local communes,

7 and settlements where the plebiscite was held. A settlement is an area

8 even smaller than a local commune. It's the smallest level of

9 census-keeping, certainly.

10 Q. And the decision --

11 A. So anywhere where more than 50 per cent of the registered citizens

12 of Serbian nationality in those areas, from a municipality down to a local

13 settlement, are henceforth to be considered part of Yugoslavia. They are

14 part of Yugoslavia, but shall remain part of Yugoslavia.

15 Q. And finally, on page 29, the decision on verification of

16 autonomous region appears.

17 A. Let me just clarify the previous thing one more time. The

18 reference to municipalities and then the local communes and settlements I

19 believe means that if a particular municipality, as a whole, voted to

20 remain within Yugoslavia, then the whole of that municipality would remain

21 within Yugoslavia. If, however, there should be a local commune or a

22 settlement in a municipality which did not so vote, perhaps because it was

23 a Serbian -- a municipality which was not a Serbian-majority municipality,

24 that the individual settlements and local communes in that municipality

25 would separately be considered as part of Yugoslavia, as opposed to the

Page 1491

1 rest of the territory in that municipality.

2 Q. You referred also earlier to the establishment of a constitutional

3 commission and the persons who were selected for membership in that

4 commission. If we could turn quickly to tab 60 and the minutes of the

5 assembly of November 21st. Turn to page 2 of that document. It indicates

6 the membership of the committee continuing on to page 3, where it

7 indicates, as you stated earlier, that Mr. Krajisnik was selected as

8 chairman.

9 A. He's elected as a member.

10 Q. So if we could turn to page 6 of the English translation.

11 A. Yes. There he's indicated as chairman.

12 Q. Now, tab 61 of binder 4 --

13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid, although I'm very much pressed on not to

14 spend unnecessary time on something that -- in the question, you say,

15 Mr. Tieger, that Mr. Krajisnik was selected as the chairman, and the

16 answer was he was elected as a member. And the next question was on

17 page 6, that he's there indicated as a chairman. But on page 2, is he not

18 indicated as a chairman? Or in the beginning of this -- I read on page 2

19 of the minutes the session was chaired by the President of the Assembly,

20 Momcilo Krajisnik. So it's not an election, but I don't have to go to

21 page 6 to find him as a chairman or -- it's not clear to me what

22 information through the witness you want to present to the Chamber.

23 MR. TIEGER: Well, it may be best, Mr. Treanor, if you clarify the

24 appearance of the word "chairman" on page 2 and then the -- its further

25 appearance on page 6.

Page 1492

1 A. I'm trying to find the relevant place in the documentation,

2 without too much success at the moment.

3 Q. If I could direct your attention to the first page of the minutes

4 first, which is labelled page 2 in the English translation.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And states that the session was chaired by the President of the

7 Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, the chairman stated, et cetera.

8 A. Yes. This is Mr. Krajisnik, as president, as we referred to him

9 throughout this testimony, of the Assembly itself.

10 Q. And if we could then turn to page 6 of the English translation,

11 which is a continuation of the listing of the members of the

12 constitutional commission which began on page 5.

13 A. Yes. Well, this refers to the constitutional commission which is

14 being constituted, if you will, and refers in this place to Mr. Krajisnik

15 as chairman or president of that commission.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I missed your question. It was also about

17 constitutional commission. So that's my misunderstanding. It also warns

18 me that going too quickly has its disadvantages as well. I apologise.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. The next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor, is the 21 November

22 1991 conclusions. That's found at tab 61. And you've highlighted the

23 paragraph enumerated II, which refers to part of the property from the

24 joint mass media.

25 A. Yes. This reflects one of the grievances of the Bosnian Serb

Page 1493

1 leadership, that they felt that the media in BH was not objective in

2 reporting on their views and activities, and they were anxious to

3 establish their own media, including radio and television.

4 Q. In the second portion of that document you've highlighted appears

5 on page 2, or am I mistaken about that? Well, in any event, if I can

6 direct your attention to the document on the screen at the moment, which

7 is entitled, "Conclusions," and on which you've highlighted the first two

8 paragraphs, I and II.

9 A. Yes. This is a resolution adopted in support of the Yugoslav

10 People's Army.

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I believe that document is also found at

12 page 61, immediately after the document previously referred to.

13 A. Reference to defence of the common state, and in I and II, the

14 issue of mobilisation, both of which have been referred to earlier.

15 Q. The next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor, is the third

16 assembly session, which was held on December 11th, 1991.

17 A. I think we have skipped a document. We got to the decision on the

18 verification of the autonomous regions, but we never really considered it.

19 I think we went back to revisit an issue. So maybe we should put that up

20 again.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that document is found at tab 59, on

22 page 29.

23 Q. And is the document now on screen the one you were referring to,

24 Mr. Treanor?

25 A. Yes. By this decision, the Assembly verifies the Serbian

Page 1494

1 autonomous districts, here in the translation referred to as regions that

2 we discussed yesterday. This decision verifies five districts. I

3 mentioned yesterday the formation of six in this decision. Two of the

4 districts, Romanija and Birac, are combined into one district, and the

5 territories of those Serbian autonomous districts are indicated with

6 varying degrees of precision. As the Court will see, for instance, in the

7 first paragraph here relating to the Autonomous Region of Krajina, there

8 are certain whole municipalities which are indicated as being part of that

9 autonomous region. We saw earlier in the documents relating to the

10 formation of the Community of Municipalities and the autonomous region

11 that various municipalities, basically, the Serbian-majority

12 municipalities, joined those bodies. But then it goes on to refer to

13 parts of other municipalities from this region with a majority Serbian

14 population. So here we see the autonomous regions expanding beyond the

15 borders of the original municipalities which joined them. And similar

16 wording is found in the definition of the territory of the other Serbian

17 autonomous regions.

18 Paragraph II of this decision, not surprisingly, defines the

19 autonomous regions as being within BH, as federal units in the common

20 state of Yugoslavia. The wording is a bit confusing. It seems to state

21 that the autonomous districts are themselves federal units within

22 Yugoslavia, on the one hand, but on the other hand, it says that they are

23 part of BH, which of course is still technically itself a federal unit

24 within Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Turning now to the 3rd assembly session held on December 11th,

Page 1495

1 1991.

2 MR. TIEGER: Again, Your Honours, that can be found at tab 62.

3 Q. Mr. Treanor, the first two portions of that assembly session that

4 you have highlighted are -- refer to Mr. Krajisnik's explanation of the

5 difference between establishing assemblies in minority municipalities and

6 regionalisation.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you wanted to guide us to page 14.

9 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. This is precisely right.

10 A. Before I get into that, I'd like to briefly say that this 3rd

11 session held on the 11th of December considered various issues which help

12 to push forward the process of forming a separate Serbian entity in BH.

13 One of them is a recommendation for the foundation of new Serbian

14 municipalities in BH, which we'll be discussing further. There was also a

15 report made on the matter of choosing a prime minister designate for the

16 entity being formed, someone who would be responsible for forming what

17 they refer to as a Council of Ministers.

18 Now, the discussion that Mr. Krajisnik is participating at this

19 point is -- relates the agenda item on the resolution relating to the

20 founding of Serbian municipalities. There was some confusion about this

21 matter among the deputies, and he is trying to explain it to them exactly

22 where Serbian municipalities might be formed and assuring them that this

23 is a separate issue from that of the regionalisation.

24 Q. And if we can turn to the second highlighted portion which appears

25 on page 22 and 23.

Page 1496












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1497

1 A. This is his remarks on the same topic, I think it's a continuation

2 of the first passage. He's explaining to them that the issue here in

3 these two passages relates to municipalities in which the Serbs are not in

4 the majority, and where they are subject to what he refers to as

5 majorisation, that is, outvoting. In other words, in the Municipal

6 Assembly, since they are not a majority, they can be outvoted and

7 decisions can be taken by that Municipal Assembly that would not be --

8 that would be contrary to the interests of the Serbian people. So it's

9 within those municipalities that he is saying that new, separate Serbian

10 municipalities should be formed.

11 Q. And that portion of the highlight ends on page 23, with the

12 sentence: "This is not in collision with regionalisation."

13 Can we turn quickly, then, to the conclusions -- or excuse me, the

14 decisions made or recommendations made at that session. That can be found

15 at tab 61 and appears on screen at the moment entitled, "Recommendation on

16 establishing Municipal Assemblies of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina."

18 A. Yes. Now, this resolution is framed as a recommendation.

19 Mr. Krajisnik is explaining to the deputies that it was only a

20 recommendation. Some of them had expressed the concern that, in certain

21 areas, it might not be such a good idea to do this. So they didn't want

22 to be bound by any such decision. Some of the deputies had the hope of

23 reaching agreement with the other parties in their particular areas, and

24 thereby keeping the whole of the municipality within Yugoslavia. And they

25 felt that a -- some sort of order to them, instruction to them to split

Page 1498

1 the municipality would be in fact contrary to the Serbian interests in

2 that area. So this is framed as a recommendation to the Deputies' Clubs

3 of the SDS within Municipal Assemblies where they do not have a majority.

4 MR. TIEGER: If I could ask the Chamber to turn back to tab 62.

5 If we can look again at the record of the session and view quickly the

6 portions of that session that you highlighted, the first of which appears

7 on page 19.

8 A. Yes. This is Mr. Milosevic, who is identified as the president of

9 the Executive Committee of the municipality of Novi Grad, which is one of

10 the Sarajevo municipalities, and he's in favour of this proposal of

11 forming Serbian municipalities as a solution to the problem of

12 immigration, which has resulted in the Serbs becoming a minority in that

13 particular municipality.

14 Q. And in that passage, you refer specifically to the influx over the

15 past ten years of between 40.000 and 50.000 of people from Sandzak?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Although you've indicated previously the ethnicity of the people

18 from Sandzak, perhaps you can remind us again.

19 A. Well, I can only assume that the reference here is to Muslims from

20 Sandzak, which is a part of Serbia adjoining Bosnia and Herzegovina on the

21 east, which is heavily populated by Muslims.

22 Q. If we can turn to the next portion of that session that you've

23 highlighted, Mr. Treanor. That can be found at page 25. It's Mr. Vojo

24 Kupresanin speaking, and the highlighted portion is the second

25 paragraph -- second and third paragraphs.

Page 1499

1 A. Yes. To remind the Court: Mr. Kupresanin is not only a deputy in

2 the Assembly, but he is the president of the Assembly of the Autonomous

3 Region of Krajina, and here he is speaking in favour of the formation of

4 Serbian municipalities. The point that he addresses here is that the

5 Serbs in particular municipalities inhabit extensive portions of the

6 municipality geographically, although from the point of view of overall

7 population, they do not form a majority, due to the concentration of the

8 Muslim population in the towns.

9 Q. And in the later portion of his address, shortly thereafter, does

10 he make his point even more emphatically?

11 A. Yes. Here is another reference to living space, which we saw

12 Dr. Karadzic referring to in the run-up to the plebiscite. Fear that

13 their living space is being endangered.

14 Q. And this is the portion --

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question in respect of the previous

16 part. It reads - but perhaps that's a wrong understanding - "That the

17 plebiscite has shown us accurately which territory is ours," and I see

18 that in this -- that the speaker refers to the -- some difference in

19 landownership and number of Serbs living there, sometimes the ownership up

20 to 80 per cent, 70, 80 per cent, whereas perhaps the number of Serbs is

21 not a majority of the population. Did the plebiscite indicate - and

22 that's not clear to me - anything about landownership? Those who were

23 voting, did they report on their landownership?

24 THE WITNESS: No, not that I'm aware of. What the reference is

25 to, I believe, is the fact that the plebiscite was taken and the results

Page 1500

1 tabulated on the basis of not only the municipality as a whole, but also

2 the local communes and populated places within municipalities. What he

3 seems to be saying here is that on the basis of the results of the

4 plebiscite, they can see which of those settlements and local communes in

5 the municipalities which are -- which have non-Serb majorities are

6 inhabited by Serbs and therefore should be their territory. The -- and he

7 seems to be saying that the total area of those particular local communes

8 in populated places, since they are rural constituencies, if you will,

9 comprise 80 per cent of the territory of Bosanska Krupa, in this case.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Thank you for clarification.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And just to clarify for the

13 record, the last portion, highlighted portion, from Mr. Kupresanin, to

14 which you referred, is the third paragraph from the bottom, in which he

15 says: "I personally think that our living space and territory is

16 endangered," and the last sentence of which is: "Actually, we have to

17 prevent Muslims from moving into our territories and regions."

18 A. Right. This is a reflection of the concern that we've seen many

19 times already in the course of this presentation.

20 Q. The next section that you've highlighted and to which I believe

21 you referred earlier is found at page 34.

22 A. Yes. Now, this -- these remarks are made by Mr. Miskin in the

23 course of a different point of the discussion, a different point of the

24 agenda, which is reports from various bodies on their activities. To

25 remind the Court: Mr. Miskin is the head of the SDS regionalisation

Page 1501

1 staff. So he gives a report on that issue, but he makes a few general

2 recommendations and remarks as well, one of them being his belief that the

3 formation of a Council of Ministers as soon as possible would assist in

4 the matters that he's concerned with.

5 Q. And that is the third paragraph, which is a single sentence, from

6 the bottom of page 34.

7 Turning to the next page, as Mr. Miskin continues, you've

8 highlighted a portion there, which is the fourth full paragraph.

9 A. Yes. Here he addresses the issue of defence and the need for

10 contingency plans in that connection.

11 Q. And the final segment that you've highlighted, Mr. Treanor, is

12 found at page 48, continuing on to page 49. And that is an address by

13 Velibor Ostojic.

14 A. Yes. Velibor Ostojic, who is the minister of information in the

15 BH government, also gives a report, and he starts out by referring again

16 to the demographic concerns that he has. The next page continues very

17 shortly the rest of that. He indicates that he -- one reason why he's not

18 in favour of the continuation of a unified state in Bosnia is because of

19 the high birth rate of the -- of non-Serbs, Muslims in particular,

20 presumably, which would mean that they would soon be outnumbered within

21 Bosnia as a whole.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next document selected by

23 Mr. Treanor is the first document in binder 5. And the specific tab

24 number is 63.

25 Q. Mr. Treanor, before we look at the two highlighted portions in

Page 1502

1 that document, can you tell us what it represents.

2 A. Yes. This is a letter to Mr. Krajisnik, apparently it went to

3 other people as well, since his name is filled in by hand, and it delivers

4 a package of material relating to the formation of a Serbian municipality

5 in Bosanska Krupa. The decision -- the recommendation on the foundation

6 of Serbian municipalities had asked that the Bosnian Serb Assembly be

7 informed of developments in that area. So this package of material is

8 apparently being sent to Mr. Krajisnik, in fulfilment of that paragraph of

9 the recommendation, which is the last paragraph.

10 Q. First highlighted portion of that document is found on page 3 of

11 the English translation and is entitled, "Decision on verification of the

12 proclaimed Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa."

13 A. Yes. This is offered by way of example of the types of decisions

14 that were taken pursuant to the recommendation. As can be seen, this

15 decision was taken at a session. It's described as the Serbian Assembly

16 of Bosanska Krupa on the 11th of December, which is the very day that the

17 recommendation was enacted. Now, one reason why Bosanska Krupa was able

18 to act so quickly was that in fact they had already formed something that

19 they called a Serbian municipality a month or so earlier. So they were

20 all ready to meet the terms of the recommendation and hasten to adopt the

21 appropriate papers and send them to the Bosnian Serb Assembly.

22 Q. And the second highlighted section is -- appears to be the last

23 page of the document, and bears the -- in the original, as reflected in

24 the translation, apparently, the signature of the president of the Serbian

25 Municipality --

Page 1503

1 A. Yes, that's correct. I would also like to call attention to

2 paragraph II of this decision, Roman II, which states that the Serbian

3 Municipality, the new Serbian Municipality of Bosanska Krupa, is part of

4 the Autonomous Region of Krajina. So again we can see here that the

5 formation of the Serbian Municipalities is linked with the expansion of

6 the Serbian autonomous districts.

7 Q. Mr. Treanor, I would ask you to look next at the December 19th,

8 1991 view on the right of self-determination, which is found at tab 64,

9 and is the next document that you've selected.

10 A. Yes. This is a document which emanates from the Bosnian Serb

11 Assembly, and it is signed by Mr. Krajisnik as the president of the

12 Assembly. I haven't seen any reference to this document in the minutes of

13 any -- or the records of any of the Assembly sessions up to this point,

14 nor indeed in the next session. So it's not exactly clear to me who put

15 this together. Its content is self-explanatory from its title, but it was

16 signed by Mr. Krajisnik, and the original copy I have bears a signature

17 and a seal. It was faxed out from the Assembly -- in fact, probably using

18 a fax machine of the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina, presumably to various people as a statement of the Serb

20 position on the issue described in the title. I would just call attention

21 to the last paragraph of this document, where we see an expression of the

22 fears of what might befall the Serbian people in BH should they not be

23 able to become masters of their own fate by establishing their own

24 structures.

25 Q. For the record, you're referring to the last paragraph of that

Page 1504

1 document, the last sentence of which reads: "Any other viewpoint would

2 bring into question the national and physical survival of the Serbian

3 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who in recent history have been exposed

4 to one of the worst genocides and policies of forced resettlement in

5 Europe."

6 A. Yes, precisely.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document can be found in the

8 intercept binder at tab 21, and that is a conversation between

9 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Novakovic. And the clip to be played will be found

10 at page 1 of that document.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. And just to inform the Court: Milan Novakovic

12 was a member of the SDS Main Board from Bijeljina, in north-east Bosnia.

13 [Intercept played]


15 Q. Mr. Novakovic wanted to know what that second degree implied, and

16 perhaps you can illuminate that.

17 A. Yes. Well, Mr. Novakovic is probably concerned that things should

18 be under a little tighter control, and Dr. Karadzic assures him that he's

19 about to do something. According to the transcript, this conversation

20 took place on the 19th of December, which was a Thursday. So he refers to

21 a meeting that will take place on Friday, which is the 20th, and then to

22 an Assembly meeting, which will take place on Saturday, the 21st. To

23 remind the Court: Dr. Karadzic had already introduced a state of

24 emergency in the party on, I believe, the 18th of October.

25 He's indicating here that he's about to do something else. He

Page 1505












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1506

1 uses the phrase "second degree," which is one that will occur in I think

2 the next document we're about to see. Whether the second degree he's

3 referring to here is the same as the second degree referred to in that

4 document is difficult to say, but at least he's indicating that he is

5 about to take additional measures within the party to tighten control.

6 Q. And in the next document, found at tab 65, on page 59 of the

7 English translation, do we see the scheduling of the meeting you referred

8 to?

9 A. Yes. This is the -- the original is a handwritten entry in the

10 diary. This is the -- an entry from the diary of Mr. Grkovic [phoen], who

11 was Dr. Karadzic's personal assistant. And in the entry for Friday, the

12 20th of December, you'll see reference to a meeting of the Main Board, at

13 1600 hours.

14 MR. TIEGER: And for the record, Your Honour, it's the -- the

15 highlight appears in the first entry on page 59. And in addition, the

16 date, Friday, 20 December 1991, is highlighted.

17 Your Honour, the next document selected by Mr. Treanor is found in

18 the next binder and at tab 66.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it that you're aware that the

20 Chamber has been confronted already, as far as I can see, with this

21 document, in quite some detail in -- I think during the testimony of

22 Mr. Deronjic, but -- so the -- I would say the Variant A and Variant B on

23 whether we are in a minority or a majority situation at the two different

24 stages are already known to the Chamber, and I do not remember, but I'm

25 looking to you, Ms. Loukas, that there was any cross-examination,

Page 1507

1 especially on the content of these documents, apart from what they -- what

2 their relevance and what their importance is, but on the existence as

3 such.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, just in relation to content, no,

5 there was no cross-examination in relation to that issue on the part of

6 Mr. Stewart, no.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


9 Q. Mr. Treanor, with that guidance in mind, and also bearing in mind

10 that another witness will be testifying in more detail about both this

11 document and the entities it gave rise to, perhaps you can give the Court

12 just a quick snapshot version of whatever aspects of the document are

13 necessary to place your presentation -- the subsequent parts of your

14 presentation in context.

15 A. Well, I'm glad to hear that the Court is familiar with this very

16 important document and that we'll be hearing more about it. I'll not

17 waste time on the specific contents of the document. I have two things

18 that I would like to point out, however, on the basis of the previous

19 documents we've seen here.

20 One is that I believe that this document was distributed at the

21 meeting of the -- what was called the meeting of the Main Board on the

22 20th of December. I base that on the fact that we see various parts of

23 this document being implemented very soon after that date. We have

24 numerous numbered copies of this document. So it's clear that it was

25 widely distributed at about this time, and that would seem to be the

Page 1508

1 occasion for that to have happened. Another possibility would have been

2 at the assembly session the next day. Again, on those two days, a lot of

3 people from around the country were in Sarajevo. There is no direct

4 reference to that happening in the records of the assembly session,

5 however.

6 The other thing I'd like to point out is in this Variant A,

7 Variant B distinction, this relates to the issue that had come up in

8 connection with the discussion on the establishment of Serbian

9 municipalities, in which, as Mr. Krajisnik pointed out during that

10 discussion, the concern was really with municipalities in which the Serbs

11 were not in a majority, in other words, in terms of this document,

12 Variant B municipalities. Now, this document, which is a party document,

13 in fact instructs the SDS in Variant B municipalities to establish

14 assemblies of the Serbian people. In other words, what had been

15 recommended by the Bosnian Serb Assembly and framed as a recommendation is

16 now being made a party order, so to speak. I think that I can conclude my

17 remarks with that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one additional question in that respect,

19 since it has been a question during previous testimonies. These

20 instructions, the cover page says that it's Serbian Democratic Party,

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Main Committee. Do you have any information about

22 when and by whom exactly these instructions were adopted?

23 THE WITNESS: No. The reference is to the main -- I think what we

24 call the Main Board in our report, which is a body familiar to the Court.

25 At the end of the document, there is a reference to the Crisis Staff of

Page 1509

1 the SDS, which is a body. The composition and time of formation of which

2 I do not know.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we don't have -- at least you don't have

4 any information on, well, let's say, the previous day or a couple of days

5 previous to the distribution of this document, that it was adopted, which

6 perhaps you could know through minutes or -- well, whatever.

7 THE WITNESS: No. No. No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


10 Q. The next document selected by Mr. Treanor is found at tab 67. And

11 on that document, which is -- which bears the heading of the Assembly of

12 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo, 19 December 1991,

13 and is addressed to the government of the Serbian Autonomous District of

14 Krajina, Knin.

15 A. Yes. Now, this is a letter of congratulation and solidarity sent

16 by Mr. Krajisnik to the leaders, the Serbian leaders in the Knin area of

17 Croatia. As I mentioned yesterday, in that area, the Serbs had founded,

18 in the middle of 1990, a Community of Municipalities, and on or about, in

19 fact, 19 December 1990, had transformed that entity into a Serbian

20 Autonomous District. At this point in time, one year later, they are

21 about to, in turn, transform the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina

22 into a Republic of Serbian Krajina. And Mr. Krajisnik has been invited to

23 the ceremonies that were going to be held on that occasion, which he was

24 unable to attend, and he expresses his solidarity in this letter.

25 Q. For the record, you've highlighted the third, fourth, and fifth

Page 1510

1 paragraphs of that letter, the middle paragraph of which is one sentence,

2 which reads: "All Serbs are engaged in a struggle for the same goal,

3 under the same banner, and we are all convinced of our ultimate victory."

4 A. Yes. And I would say that that is a reference to they're all

5 having the goal of being within a common state.

6 Q. Can we look next, Mr. Treanor, at the next document you've

7 selected, found at tab 68, and that is the 4th Session of the Assembly of

8 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, on 21 December 1991. Now, I

9 know you've highlighted a number, quite a number of portions of that

10 document, so if we could begin to move through those quickly. But before

11 we do, you may have some overview comments you wish to make.

12 A. Yes. This session of the Assembly held on the 21st of December

13 further pushed forward the work of forming separate structures for the

14 Bosnian Serbs, in particular, the formation of a Council of Ministers. It

15 also took place around the time when, in conjunction with a declaration

16 issued by the European Community, the non-Serbian members of the Bosnian

17 Presidency and government responded favourably to the invitation to

18 express their interest in gaining international recognition as an

19 independent state. This is another crisis point for the Bosnian Serbs,

20 because it is a step, further step forward in the realisation of the goals

21 of their former coalition partners to realise an independent Bosnia rather

22 than having Bosnia remain within Yugoslavia. So there was a lot of

23 discussion at this session about that, and more frustration expressed with

24 the actions of the SDA and the HDZ in that connection.

25 Q. The first portion you've highlighted is found at page 3. That's

Page 1511

1 the third paragraph from the bottom by Mr. Buha.

2 A. Yes, Mr. Buha is a deputy, and here he refers to the necessity for

3 having a defined territory, in order to give proper effect to sovereignty.

4 Q. And you've highlighted next a portion on page 5, in which Mr. Buha

5 continues. That's the second paragraph from the bottom of that page.

6 A. Here he outlines what he sees should be the criteria for any

7 territorial division.

8 Q. On page 6, Mr. Buha continues, and you've highlighted a portion

9 there. That's the paragraph -- or the sentence beginning: "Given the

10 ethnic composition of BH."

11 A. In this paragraph, he is projecting the idea of a state in which

12 would be governed on the principle of one man, one vote.

13 Q. And he states that: "Given the ethnic composition of BH, this

14 pseudo-democratic principle would lead to domination of an ethnic

15 community --"

16 A. Yes. Again, the fear of -- and the reality as it developed of

17 outvoting.

18 Q. The next highlighted segment appears at page 12 of the English

19 translation. Can you tell us who the speaker is? And for the record,

20 it's again a single sentence in the middle of page 12,

21 beginning: "Bearing in mind the results of the referendum."

22 A. I believe Mr. Koljevic is speaking at this point. He refers, in

23 fact, to the results of the plebiscite of the Serbian people and their

24 rejection of any request for international recognition of BH as an

25 independent state on the basis of the results of the plebiscite, which

Page 1512

1 they had Serbian people in Bosnia had stated they wished to remain within

2 Yugoslavia.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, I haven't got the same time look at the

4 document, but you say Dr. Koljevic, from at first inspection on who was

5 the last speaker, it seems to me that on page 8, Mr. Koljevic is speaking,

6 but then on page 9, it seems that the next speaker announced is

7 Mr. Simovic. And I do not see any --

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Simovic, who was the deputy -- a deputy prime

11 minister in the BH government, and had been present at a government

12 session the day before, at which a decision similar to the one taken in

13 the Presidency was made.


15 Q. The next highlighted section is found at page 13. The highlighted

16 portion appears at the very top of the page, between the designation for

17 chairman and the beginning of the next speaker, Mr. Milovanovic.

18 A. Yes. The chairman here introduces a draft of a statement which it

19 is proposed the Assembly send to Lord Carrington.

20 Q. And for the record, the chairman of this assembly session is who?

21 A. Mr. Krajisnik.

22 Q. There's a highlighted portion on page 14, the next page of the

23 English translation, that begins: "The reasons for such a decision of the

24 Serbian people are strong and convincing," and continues on through the

25 next --

Page 1513

1 A. Yes. This is a portion of the draft that was read out, the tenor

2 of which, as a whole, is to reject the Serbian people's decision to ask

3 for the recognition of independence.

4 Q. Just below that, Professor Maksimovic speaks, and you've

5 highlighted that. He addresses a decision. For the record, the

6 highlighted portion on that page begins with the speaker's name and

7 continues to the bottom of the page. And will continue on the next page.

8 A. Yes. This is Mr. Maksimovic, who was the president of the SDS

9 Deputies' Club, introducing a draft decision on the establishment of a --

10 what's called here a Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina. In other

11 words, to push forward the process of forming a Serbian entity in a manner

12 similar to what had just happened in Croatia, where a Republic of Serbian

13 Krajina had been declared. Now, what is in prospect is the declaration of

14 a Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, composed of the various

15 Serbian autonomous districts in Bosnia.

16 Q. And for the record --

17 A. I'm sorry. This is not, by the way, the declaration of the

18 republic per se, but a decision that preparations should be undertaken in

19 order for this to happen, and indeed specified this should happen, at the

20 latest, by Serbian new year of 1992, which I believe would be

21 September 14th in the Gregorian calendar.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be --

23 THE WITNESS: January 14th.



Page 1514












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1515

1 Q. The next highlighted portion, Mr. Treanor, appears on page 19 of

2 the English translation for the benefit of the Court. I believe the

3 speaker is Mr. Zekic. The portion highlighted --

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. The first paragraph of that page, and the first sentence of the

6 second paragraph.

7 A. Here we see another expression of the fears entertained by the

8 Bosnian Serb leaders should the Bosnian Serbs be left as a minority in

9 someone else's state. And in fact, in addition, laying claim in terms

10 that we saw in the -- in some of the previous documents, I believe the

11 decision on verification, two areas where the Serbs had been in a majority

12 and were no longer in a majority because of the genocide which had taken

13 place during World War II.

14 Q. The next highlighted section is found at page 22. Is it correct

15 that this is Dr. Karadzic speaking?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The portion that you've highlighted begins: "The Catholic Council

18 planned in 1900 said by 2000 there would be no Orthodox people in the

19 Balkans."

20 A. No, wait a minute. I'm sorry. This is -- no. This is

21 Mr. Knezevic speaking.

22 Q. My apologies.

23 A. Now, Mr. Knezevic is a deputy and also a Serbian Orthodox priest.

24 We can see his concerns here about the fate of the Orthodox people

25 vis-a-vis, in this case, the Catholics.

Page 1516

1 Q. And he expresses the conviction that what is happening in -- at

2 that moment is a continuation of the plan he referred to that began in

3 1900?

4 A. Yes, precisely.

5 Q. The next clip is found at page 23, or excuse me, the next

6 highlighted portion, and that's the second paragraph of that page, which

7 begins: "By citing what Njegos said to his ancestors from Asia."

8 A. Yes. This is a -- this is the end of Mr. Knezevic's remarks.

9 Njegos is the national poet of Montenegro. He lived and wrote during the

10 nineteenth century and is considered one of the greatest poets in the

11 language. And his most famous work, the Mountain Wreath, concerns the --

12 in large part, the struggle of the Montenegrin people, the Orthodox people

13 of Montenegro, against the Ottoman, Muslim invaders.

14 Q. The next highlighted portion is found on page 24. It's

15 Mr. Brdjanin speaking, and the portion you've highlighted begins: "Since

16 Europe apparently understands only force, I think that force must be

17 responded to with force."

18 A. Yes. And this portion, in particular, reflects the ongoing

19 tension, if not outright military hostilities in Croatia - I'm not sure

20 exactly what the military situation in Croatia was at this point. There

21 were certainly international efforts under way to get a ceasefire and

22 peacekeeping plan in place, which happened at the beginning of January.

23 But the -- as we've seen, the Bosnian Serb leaders, the SDS leaders from

24 the Bosnian Krajina area, were very concerned with that situation and were

25 very supportive of the military operations of the JNA. So he continues to

Page 1517

1 make reference to that here.

2 Q. And on page 27, you've highlighted three portions of an address by

3 Mr. Vukic, the first of which appears at the very top of the page and

4 refers to the Serbian army.

5 A. Was there something on the previous page? That's the beginning of

6 that sentence. It's not highlighted, though. Mr. Vukic is an SDS leader

7 from Banja Luka. He is not a member of the Assembly per se. I believe

8 he's also a member of the Main Board.

9 Q. And in that first highlighted section, he expresses the view that

10 the army at the moment is the Yugoslav Army, whose members are Serbs. And

11 it should undergo a rapid transformation as soon as possible.

12 A. Yes. Again, we can see the preoccupation with the struggle

13 against the Croats. He refers here again to fascism and the Ustasha, who

14 were the Croatian allies of the Germans during World War II and were

15 responsible for the genocide against the Serbs at that time.

16 Q. The second highlighted portion begins: "This dirty game played by

17 the EC is unacceptable," and continues on to the rest of the paragraph.

18 A. Yes. Again, this is a reflection that -- of what we've seen

19 before. I think Dr. Karadzic addressing what he sees as the foreign

20 machinations against Yugoslavia in order to dismember it and targeting

21 Germany in particular as being behind that effort.

22 Q. And finally, in the last highlighted portion of his speech, does

23 he address the determination of the Serbian people in Bosnia to reject any

24 decision for Bosnian independence and identifies the consequences if that

25 happens?

Page 1518

1 A. Yes. He voices the -- raises the possibility that there will

2 be -- actually be an uprising, with massive bloodshed, in order to resist

3 any decision to take the Serbs of Bosnia-Herzegovina out of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. And the highlighted portion that appears is the last sentence of

5 that -- of his address, which says that: "If the EC goes on with its

6 threat to recognise Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent state, or as

7 part of a future Independent State of Croatia, or the Independent State of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, there will be another Serbian uprising and there

9 will be massive bloodshed in which some nations, that have been

10 subsequently created, will disappear altogether."

11 A. Yes. I think the reference there is to the Bosnian Muslims. I

12 think I alluded earlier in my testimony to the theory of certain Serbian

13 nationalists that the Bosnian Muslims used to be Serbs. They were simply

14 Serbs who had converted to Islam. The Bosnian -- or the Muslims were not

15 recognised as a nation within Yugoslavia, until the 1960s, so in that

16 sense they were a new nation and I think that's the reference to having

17 been subsequently created is to.

18 Q. The next portion of the --

19 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. Just in relation to that.


21 MS. LOUKAS: We appear, Your Honour, to be going through a

22 procedure of again reading out portions of what appears in the Assembly

23 documents there. It seems to me not particularly probative. I mean,

24 we're looking at someone in the position of Mr. Krajisnik as the Speaker

25 of the parliament. It appears to me not to be particularly probative to

Page 1519

1 be reading out portions of other people's speeches in that instance, Your

2 Honour. Perhaps so much time need not be spent on that particular aspect,

3 I would submit.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any response?

5 MR. TIEGER: Well, I don't -- any response, I think, Your Honour,

6 at this point would be in the form of argument, and I think that's exactly

7 what the nature of this objection is. We are identifying the evolution of

8 the policies of the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian Serb leadership as

9 reflected in the discussions and decisions made at the Bosnian Serb

10 Assembly, of which Mr. Krajisnik was president. It was the highest organ

11 of the Bosnian Serb leadership. We are not -- we are moving through in a

12 manner attempting to balance the constraints of time with as broad a

13 picture of the development of those policies, and the specific issues that

14 were addressed by them as possible. But as I indicated at the outset of

15 my response, this essentially involves a matter of argument. And I'll

16 finally say, as a matter of precision, I do not believe we have been, in

17 fact, reading out portions of the Assembly sessions. I think they have

18 been commentary on them only.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The Prosecution is not

21 unnecessarily reading at this moment, and tries to follow the guidance of

22 the Chamber. In respect of specifically the part of the reading which

23 caused the Defence to object, that part of the document certainly needed

24 some explanation where it referred to some nations that have been

25 subsequently created, that it certainly assists the Chamber to understand

Page 1520

1 what might be meant by those words, especially because they were spoken,

2 at least in the presence of Mr. Krajisnik, and since it -- these words at

3 least give a sketch of what the consequences of the political developments

4 at that time might be.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. On page 38 of the English translation, we see another highlighted

8 portion. I believe the speaker here is Dr. Karadzic, but of course I'd

9 ask you to check on that.

10 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic is speaking at this point. And in this

11 highlighted portion, he refers to the plebiscite and what it means for the

12 territory of the Bosnian Serb entity which is in formation. Again, the

13 reference -- where it says, "Our referendum," in the original, it

14 says, "Our plebiscite." "At a plebiscite."

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my clarification: Was Mr. Karadzic a member

17 of the Assembly or did he address the Assembly as -- in his position as

18 head of the delegation in charge of the negotiations with the other

19 communities.

20 THE WITNESS: Very good question, Your Honour. I probably should

21 have mentioned at -- way at the beginning, especially in connection with

22 the elections, that Dr. Karadzic occupied no official position within BH.

23 He did not run as a candidate in any of the elections, nor was he chosen

24 to be a member of, say, the government, or occupy any other official

25 position. He was the president of the party, president of the SDS. As

Page 1521

1 such, he had the status to be invited to address the BH Assembly.


3 THE WITNESS: As far as this Assembly is concerned, this Assembly

4 is almost exclusively composed of members of the SDS, and he has in fact

5 been elected by them to carry out certain functions. So it is not at all

6 surprising that he is speaking here, but he does not speak as a member of

7 the Assembly per se, since he's not a member of the Assembly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That clarifies what we read on page 37 about

9 the position of Mr. Karadzic in this respect. Please proceed.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I note that having begun at 10 to 11.00,

11 we've hit the hour and a half mark. I'd just ask the Court's guidance on

12 that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this would be a suitable moment to have a

14 break, then we would adjourn until a quarter to 1.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Turning now to page 39 of the English translation of this session.

20 The highlight appears at the second-to-the-last paragraph of that page.

21 And again, I believe this is a continuation of, I think, Dr. Karadzic's

22 speech.

23 A. We're moving on. Yes, this is still Dr. Karadzic. Here he refers

24 to the transformation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which became the standard

25 expression that he used for the changes that he had in mind, which an

Page 1522

1 outside observer might be forgiven for taking for partition. He's clearly

2 referring here to Bosnia not remaining unitary, but being divided into

3 three separate national areas.

4 Q. And on page 40, the next page, again this second-to-last paragraph

5 is highlighted, and that begins: "Apart from causing the deaths of

6 several hundred thousand people."

7 A. Here Dr. Karadzic again addresses the possible consequences of a

8 civil war in BH, including massive deaths and mass transfers of the

9 population.

10 Q. Turning now to page 41, the next highlighted section.

11 A. We're still with Dr. Karadzic at this point.

12 Q. And you've highlighted a sentence in the middle of the page that

13 refers to the possibility of little Muslim enclaves.

14 A. Yes. This gets to a rather obscure point as to exactly how he

15 foresaw a partition. Apparently, at this time he did not foresee that the

16 entities of the various constituent peoples would be compact, continuous

17 territories, but could encompass islands or enclaves scattered throughout

18 each other's territories. He, in several cases, and maybe we've seen once

19 already, where he makes reference to the situation in Switzerland, where

20 you have some of the parts -- some parts of cantons are in fact islands in

21 neighbouring cantons, I think the main idea being that each population

22 centre of whatever people would be under its own authorities and not be

23 under the authority of one of the other peoples.

24 Q. And in the next highlighted segment, which is the last sentence of

25 the second-to-last full paragraph of that page, which begins: "It seems

Page 1523












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1524

1 to me that at this moment in time," and refers to: "As much separation as

2 possible."

3 A. Yes. He seems to be anxious to get everything done all at once

4 and not leave unfinished business.

5 Q. On page --

6 A. Which could only mean continuing tensions.

7 Q. On page 44, you've highlighted two segments. Can you identify the

8 speaker and then we'll turn to those two sentences you've highlighted.

9 A. Yes. Here we're with Mr. Koljevic now, a member of the BH

10 Presidency, speaking on the subject of division, partition,

11 transformation, whatever you'd like to call it, and its necessity.

12 Q. And does Mr. Koljevic offer a folksy analogy to explain the

13 objective?

14 A. Yes. Well, here we see him saying that -- as in personal life,

15 when people can't get along, they should separate.

16 Q. And for the record, that's the sentence when people decide that

17 they have had enough of fighting in their household, they go their

18 separate ways, they divorce each other.

19 The second highlighted portion appears after the next paragraph,

20 and again is a single sentence.

21 A. Again, here he's advocating separation, as well as pacification.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn to tab 69, we'll find

23 the next document selected by Mr. Treanor, an appeal to peoples and

24 citizens of BH, dated 21 December 1991.

25 A. Yes. This appeal expresses part of the reaction of the Assembly

Page 1525

1 to the request of the non-Serbian members of the Bosnian state organs for

2 the recognition of independence.

3 Q. If we turn next to tab 70, which is a decision to set up the

4 Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that is dated December 21,

5 1991.

6 A. Yes. This is the decision I alluded to earlier, actually. The

7 title might be better rendered a decision to proceed to the formation of

8 the Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina. As I said, this session

9 did not decide to set up such a republic per se, but merely to proceed

10 with the preparations to do that. I would draw your attention to

11 paragraph I in that respect.

12 Q. And that paragraph refers explicitly to preparations that are to

13 be made to set up the republic.

14 A. Yes. As a -- or as a federal unit within the Federal State of

15 Yugoslavia, if the Croatian and Muslim ethnic communities decide to change

16 their attitude toward Yugoslavia, that is, if they persist with the drive

17 toward independence.

18 Q. You referred -- I'm sorry.

19 A. I would just like to call attention to paragraph II, where again

20 we see, as we will see in many documents, the reference to the plebiscite

21 of the Serbian people as support for the policy of the Bosnian Serb

22 leadership.

23 Q. There were references earlier to the Council of Ministers, and in

24 this connection, can we turn to tab 71 and direct your attention,

25 Mr. Treanor, to the next document you've selected, which is a decision on

Page 1526

1 the establishment and election of the Ministerial Council, also dated 21

2 December 1991.

3 A. Yes. This is --

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you: Is there any difference between what

5 we saw on page 14, the decision on the establishment, and what we see here

6 as a separate decision, or is it just exactly the same?

7 THE WITNESS: Well, I think the document we just saw is taken from

8 the gazette. This is translated from the decision as published in the

9 Official Gazette. Whether there is any difference in the wording between

10 this and what is in the record of the Assembly session, I can't say at

11 this point in time.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What I see, as a matter of fact, is that the

13 translation is a bit different. But it seems to be exactly the same

14 source. Wording is the same. So I wondered whether it was necessary to

15 look again at the same decision one time as expressed in the minutes and

16 the other time in a separate document. I mean, one word would have done.

17 It was later published in the Official Gazette. That would have done, I

18 would say, without going through it again. But if I made a mistake, the

19 only thing that my attention is drawn to is that translations are not

20 always exactly in the same wording. Please proceed.

21 THE WITNESS: I think that's because that frequently the documents

22 are translated by different people at different points in time.


24 MR. TIEGER: The next document found at tab 73 is a decision on

25 the recognition of RSK.

Page 1527

1 THE WITNESS: The Ministerial Council, I think we have to conclude

2 with that.

3 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.

4 THE WITNESS: That particular decision. I just want to point out

5 that this is an important decision. Again, this is the decision as

6 published in the gazette. The incipient republic which was not yet been

7 officially formed now has not only an assembly, but a Council of

8 Ministers. The members of the council are specified here, and also of

9 interest is the fact that no duties are specified for this body. And I

10 would also point out that ex officio members of that body are the

11 presidents of the governments of the Serbian autonomous districts.


13 Q. I think we can now turn to tab 73, which is the decision on

14 recognition of Republika Srpska. There was earlier reference to a letter

15 of congratulations on the occasion of the establishment of RSK. I take it

16 that is the formal decision.

17 A. Yes. This is the formal decision, as published in the gazette,

18 recognising -- the Assembly recognising their sister republic, so to

19 speak. Which has, of course, not been recognised anybody else, I think

20 I'm correct in saying.

21 Q. If we could turn next to a meeting of the political council held

22 on 24 December 1991, as reflected in the Maksimovic diary. That document

23 is found at tab 74.

24 A. Yes. This is, I think, the last entry we have from the Maksimovic

25 diary, and here there is discussion of how to divide up BH. We can look

Page 1528

1 at the remarks of -- that begin with Professor Leovac, who is the

2 president of that council. Mr. Najdanovic I've indicated who is a...

3 Q. On page 12, you've highlighted two portions, Mr. Treanor, the

4 first by Professor Leovac and the second by Professor Najdanovic. Can you

5 address them, please.

6 A. Well, why don't we magnify them so people can read them. I think

7 they're self-explanatory.

8 Q. In the first, Professor Leovac notes that: "In the next few days,

9 we should decide on what is to be done. Everything here can be divided."

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And in the second, which is the last sentence of Professor

12 Najdanovic's remarks, he asks what are our maximum borders? We need a

13 single Serbian state which cannot be inhabited by Muslims because they

14 would overwhelm us with their birth rate.

15 A. Yes. Here we see again a reflection of the demographic fears of

16 the Bosnian Serb leaders, the fear of having been in the same state

17 with -- having too many Muslims in the state with them that would soon

18 outnumber them.

19 Q. And if we could turn to page 13, I think there's one more

20 highlight.

21 A. Yes. This is Professor Leovac again.

22 MR. TIEGER: For the record, that's the second-to-last paragraph

23 on the page. And Professor Leovac indicates that representatives of the

24 council should talk to the SDS president and the president of the Assembly

25 of the Serbian People. And then in parenthesis: "(We should talk to

Page 1529

1 Krajisnik tomorrow and settle this immediately)."

2 A. Yes. This is a reflection of who the council perceives to be the

3 two most important leaders among the Bosnian Serb leadership.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next documents to which we'll be

5 turning will be in binder 7, although the next document sequentially will

6 be an intercept. And the intercepted phone conversation in question is

7 found at tab 22 of the intercept binder.

8 [Intercept played]

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, although it's a bit late to notify the

10 Court, that was found on page 4 of the English translation.

11 Q. Mr. Treanor.

12 A. Yes. Well, this is another one of the informal consultations on

13 the telephone between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. Some of the

14 references in there are obscure as to what is going on exactly. But they

15 both seem to be unhappy with the progress of the effort for the

16 recognition of the independence of BH. As the Court will recall, the

17 Bosnian Serb Assembly's decision on proceeding to the formation of a

18 Serbian Republic was contingent on the Muslims and Croats changing their

19 attitude toward Yugoslavia. In other words, if they ceased to push for

20 independence, then the prospect was there that the Bosnian Serbs would not

21 in fact declare their republic, if that was an effort to dissuade the SDA

22 and the HDZ from their course, it seems to be failing at this point.

23 Q. And in fact, according to Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Izetbegovic is

24 speaking openly about it.

25 A. Right, precisely. He's not backing off at all.

Page 1530

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn now to tab 75, which

2 is the first document found in binder 7.

3 Q. Mr. Treanor, I direct your attention now to the next document

4 you've selected, which consists of the minutes of a meeting between the

5 president of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman, and Professor

6 Koljevic, on 8 January 1992.

7 A. Yes. This is a very interesting document and reflects an effort

8 at negotiations, which is as obscure in the documents as the negotiations

9 over the summer with the Muslims. But this document indicates that, for

10 one thing, the Bosnian Serb leaders were not idle, were not simply waiting

11 for others to react to their moves. For instance, the intention to

12 proceed to the formation of the republic, should the SDA and the HDZ

13 change their attitude toward Yugoslavia. But that having tried to come to

14 an agreement with the Muslims, and that having failed, this document

15 indicates that they are now turning to the Croats to explore the

16 possibility for an agreement with them. We will see some excerpts from

17 this document. Part of the idea here is that they would recognise each

18 other's right to have special relations with, respectively, Serbia and

19 Croatia, and they would get together and, among other things, redraw the

20 municipal boundaries within BH so that they would be more favourable to

21 the Serbs and the Croats and give them more advantageous territories.

22 Also, the possibility of some transfers of population came up. I think we

23 can proceed with the excerpts from the document. The meeting took place,

24 by the way, at the initiative of Dr. Koljevic, according to the records of

25 the meeting, and he's utilising Mr. Franjo Boras, who was one of the Croat

Page 1531

1 members of the BH Presidency, as an intermediary to deal directly with the

2 HDZ leadership in Zagreb.

3 Q. And the first highlighted portions appear on page 3 of the English

4 translation of the document, the first of which appears in the upper

5 portion of the page and begins with the sentence: "First of all, I want

6 to express my condolences for the great suffering of the Croatian people."

7 A. Yes. Dr. Koljevic is being very forthcoming and very friendly to

8 the Croats here, and somewhat remarkably here expresses a form of apology

9 to the Croats for sufferings inflicted on them by the Serbs. I say

10 somewhat remarkably in view of what we've seen in the documents previously

11 about the tremendous support by the Bosnian Serbs for the efforts of the

12 Croatian Serbs to break away from Croatia and their characterisation of

13 the Croatian regime as a fascist regime, an Ustasha regime, and so forth.

14 Q. Just for the record, that section, highlighted section, ends with

15 the sentence: "However, I have the need to say this first of all, because

16 I think that it is essential that in our new beginning, we look one

17 another in the eye, that we look at that blame."

18 The second highlighted section is the second-to-last sentence at

19 the bottom of page 3.

20 A. Here Dr. Koljevic is basically saying that the SDS leadership

21 doesn't have any objection if the HDZ leadership in BH wants to do the

22 same thing that they're engaged in doing.

23 Q. And if we turn to next page 4 and the next highlighted section,

24 does Mr. Koljevic address a common danger?

25 A. Yes. Here he singles out what he precisely refers to as a common

Page 1532












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1533

1 danger, namely, the creation of an Islamic republic in BH.

2 Q. And for the record, that highlight begins with: "When we look at

3 these two phases globally, we have a great danger, a common danger," and

4 ends with the next sentence, which ends: "Are evolving in that

5 direction."

6 A. This, by the way, reflects a fear which, as the Court may

7 remember, a little over a year before, in one of the interviews with the

8 Belgrade magazine Knin [phoen], Dr. Karadzic had denied existed in BH.

9 Q. If we turn now to page 5, where we see highlighted second full

10 paragraph of that page and in which Dr. Koljevic refers to another factor

11 he believes they have in common.

12 A. Here, Dr. Koljevic is getting to the idea of separation as a way

13 of preventing conflicts, and indeed creating trust.

14 Q. If we turn to page 6, you've highlighted a sentence that appears

15 at the very bottom of the page, in which Dr. Koljevic addresses the issue

16 of an independent Bosnia.

17 A. Yes. Well, here again he gets to their common interests. He has

18 stated that separation, he thinks, is good for both of them; and, on the

19 other hand, he believes that an independent Bosnia in which both of those

20 people remain is against the interests of both of those people, for

21 precisely the reason that it separates them from their mother countries.

22 Q. I believe the next highlighted portion appears on page 7, next two

23 portions. Those are the first two paragraphs of that page.

24 A. Here he gets down to some concrete proposals. He also expresses

25 the fear that, to a certain extent, underlay the Bosnian Serb position in

Page 1534

1 the negotiations which would move into the public forum on an

2 international level, that is, if BH received its independence before the

3 internal transformation, as Dr. Karadzic put it, was achieved, then they

4 would -- they being the Serbs, wouldn't be able to rectify the situation.

5 The international community would wash its hands of Bosnia and move on.

6 So they felt, desperately felt that they had to get this issue resolved

7 before BH was recognised as an independent state. And here the concrete

8 proposal is for a -- some sort of confederal arrangement for Bosnia.

9 Q. If you turn next to page 12.

10 A. I'm sorry. If we could go back to that. There's one other thing

11 that I would like to point out there which ... He proposes this confederal

12 arrangement, and he says: "At least as the first stage." This is an idea

13 that we will meet later on, and that is, that the ultimate goal of the

14 Bosnian Serbs may have to be achieved in stages.

15 Q. Now, page 12, you've highlighted the comments of Mr. Susak and

16 Mr. Boras.

17 A. Yes. Mr. Susak is the -- or was the minister of defence of

18 Croatia. He seems to share some of the demographic fears of the Bosnian

19 Serb leadership, referring to the fact that since the Muslims have nowhere

20 to go from Bosnia, they will soon be able to treat the other nations as

21 minorities. And then now we have Mr. Boras, who again is the HDZ member

22 of the Presidency of BH. He has a similar idea to the one that we've seen

23 inspires the Bosnian Serb leadership, that is, the issue of people moving

24 in to someone else's ethnic territory and building homes and that sort of

25 thing, which seems to be an issue that concerns him as well. And it could

Page 1535

1 be prevented by having a territorial and administrative delimitation.

2 Q. And the next highlight appears on page 13, and it seems to be an

3 exchange between Mr. Boras and Dr. Koljevic, though I see that Mr. Manolic

4 asks a significant question in between.

5 A. I don't seem to have this one marked.

6 Q. On the screen, there's a --

7 A. If we could --

8 Q. If we could --

9 A. -- blow it up, I'll --

10 Q. The portion you've highlighted is Mr. Boras speaking and referring

11 to the reorganisation of municipalities and referendums.

12 A. Yes. This is the idea I referred to at the beginning, one that

13 the Bosnian Serb leaders have had for a long time, namely, changes within

14 the municipal organisation.

15 Q. Then Mr. Manolic asks: "The aim of that reorganisation would in

16 fact be the homogeneity of certain areas."

17 A. Yes. And Mr. Koljevic agrees with that.

18 Q. You've highlighted the portion at the beginning of Dr. Koljevic's

19 comments there: "Yes, the homogeneity of certain areas." And then below

20 you've highlighted another section in which Dr. Koljevic further addresses

21 that issue saying: "It is not so impossible to divide Bosnia."

22 A. Yes. Well, again here we have the idea of partition, as the basis

23 for an agreement. If we could go on to the next page. He makes reference

24 to a leopard skin, which I -- again, I don't have this portion in front of

25 me now, but it seems to be a reference to the way the map might look once

Page 1536

1 they get finished doing this.

2 Q. If we could return to the previous page and just look at that last

3 sentence, in which Dr. Koljevic states: "You know, everything is

4 possible, but that option is excluded for us on the basis of a stand taken

5 in advance." And then he continues: "Look at that." And then the next

6 page continues: "That leopard's skin and Carrington, then you come to

7 Carrington and he is already handicapped at the beginning."

8 A. Yes. I believe that's a reference to some sort of map, but it's

9 obscure to me. I couldn't go any further than that.

10 Q. The next highlighted section appears at page 18, and it's the

11 first three paragraphs in the English translation of the remarks by

12 Mr. Lerotic.

13 A. Yes, I've got this. And Mr. Lerotic is an advisor to President

14 Tudjman, and here he's certainly expressing agreement with the idea that

15 all three peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina have sovereignty.

16 Q. And on page 20, I think we find highlighted the comments of

17 Mr. Boras, at the bottom of the last paragraph at the bottom of the page,

18 referring to the kind of mutual assistance you commented on earlier.

19 A. Yes. Here he broaches the idea of an agreement between the Croats

20 and the Serbs on the municipal level, where they would join forces with

21 each other in given municipalities and back the claims of whichever of

22 those two nations was the -- had a relative majority in the given

23 municipality.

24 Q. I believe that highlighted portion continues on to the next page.

25 A. Yes. He makes it quite clear here that this arrangement is --

Page 1537

1 would be directed at the Muslim people. Basically the idea here in these

2 discussions is that the Croats and the Serbs should get together and do to

3 the Muslims what the Bosnian Serbs feel the Croats and the Muslims have --

4 or are about to do to them.

5 Q. The next highlighted portion is found at page 22, portions. The

6 first is beginning at the top of the page, or toward the top of the page,

7 the remarks of Mr. Lerotic.

8 A. Yes. Here we see again interest in the idea of the reorganisation

9 of the municipalities, and he's wondering whether that's really possible

10 at this point.

11 Q. And in the second half of the page, you see highlighted comments

12 of Dr. Koljevic.

13 A. Maybe we want to see the paragraph before that as well. It's just

14 a couple of lines. In this paragraph, the one just before the one that's

15 highlighted, Dr. Koljevic is making reference to the fact, well, that's

16 exactly what we're doing now. And then he goes on to explain.

17 Q. I believe that continues on to the next page.

18 A. Yes. And he explains the procedure they're adopting to form new

19 municipalities out of the Serbian-dominated areas of the existing

20 municipalities.

21 Q. And that portion begins at: "For example, in Banja Luka," and

22 ends with the line: "And form a new municipality and lean on the

23 territory outside the town."

24 Mr. Treanor, I know there are other portions of this document

25 you've highlighted, but in view of the time, would it be possible to move

Page 1538

1 on, or would we miss something that needs to be -- that isn't roughly

2 captured by the other portions of the transcript which we've reviewed?

3 A. I'm just having a quick look. They're both statements by

4 Dr. Koljevic. He goes into the international situation a little bit. I

5 can we can dispense with that.

6 Q. If we could turn, then, to tab 76, the next document selected by

7 Mr. Treanor. This is the 5th Assembly Session of the Serbian People in

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on January 9th, 1992. Before looking at the

9 highlights of that section, Mr. Treanor, are there any comments you wish

10 to make, any overview remarks?

11 A. Yes. Now, the only official item on the agenda of this session is

12 the decision for the proclamation of the Republic of the Serbian People in

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina. As has been mentioned, this session took place on

14 the 9th of January. Why they didn't wait until the 14th of February - I'm

15 sorry - the 9th of January. Why they didn't wait until the -- a few days

16 until the Serbian new year, as was specified in the previous resolution on

17 this subject, I don't know. Perhaps they had come to conclude that in

18 fact the SDA and the HDZ were not going to be diverted from their course,

19 so they might as well go ahead with theirs.

20 Q. The first highlighted portion you've indicated is found at page 8

21 of the English translation. Can you identify that speaker for us, please,

22 before explaining the comment.

23 A. I believe this is Mr. Maksimovic speaking. The translation is a

24 little different from what I'm seeing in the original, just the word

25 order, though, I think. And here he's referring to what I mentioned

Page 1539

1 before, that they have not responded to the invitation to withdraw their

2 request for the recognition of independence.

3 Q. And at page 10, we see the next portion you've highlighted, and

4 that is the declaration on the proclamation of the republic.

5 A. Yes. This is the draft, as read into the record of the assembly

6 session. I would draw attention in paragraph I where it specifies that

7 the republic is to be operative within the areas of the Serbian autonomous

8 regions and districts and other Serbian entities in BH. So here we now

9 see the culmination of the regionalisation idea in its convergence with

10 the idea of all Serbs in BH remaining within Yugoslavia via the partition

11 of BH, largely on the basis of the territories that have already been

12 marked out as part of the autonomous regions. And again, there are

13 references to areas where the Serbian people are in the minority because

14 of the genocide. So the definition of the territory of the republic

15 starts out as being rather specific, but gets increasingly imprecise. We

16 saw the same type of formulation when the autonomous districts themselves

17 were verified. So it is certainly at this point in time impossible to say

18 what precisely the boundaries of this republic would be. And in the next

19 paragraph, again we see the reference to the plebiscite as a foundation

20 for the step they're taking now.

21 Q. Depicted on the screen now is the highlighted portion of page 11,

22 which is the continuation of paragraph II and the entirety of III?

23 A. Right. At the end of II, we see the basic idea, the fundamental

24 idea here, that the new republic is to be an integral part of federal

25 Yugoslavia, and in III we see expression of the desire to achieve a

Page 1540

1 peaceful resolution of differences with the other communities within BH.

2 Q. Mr. Treanor, you indicated that the essence of, or the primary

3 focus of that particular session was just this, and in the interests of

4 time, I'd like to move forward past that session. You'll have a chance to

5 review any of the highlighted selections you made to see if we should

6 return to them, but meanwhile, I'd like to move on to the 1st Session of

7 the Ministerial Council, if we can. And I would also note that contained

8 within the documentation that you've selected, in particular, at tab 77,

9 is the declaration of the proclamation of the state, which I assume would

10 take us over the same ground we just covered.

11 A. Yes. The Court will find reflected in that document many of the

12 themes that we have seen up to now in the policy of the SDS leadership,

13 but the fundamental idea here is that this new republic will remain within

14 Yugoslavia.

15 One other point that I would -- one other point that I would point

16 out is there was some discussion in the session about the fact that in the

17 original draft of this resolution, there was a similar -- in a similar

18 fashion to the decision to proceed to the formation of the republic, there

19 was some conditionality attached to this decision, centring around the

20 attitude of the other two parties in the coalition toward Yugoslavia. If

21 that should change, then maybe the republic, this republic won't be

22 proclaimed. But in the resolution as adopted, it states that this

23 declaration comes in to force on the day of its adoption. So based on its

24 own wording, this has come into force. However, as we will see, the

25 process of actually activating, if you will, the structures of the new

Page 1541












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1542

1 republic is not an immediate one. It's drawn out a bit over the next

2 couple of months. And what we're going to turn to now is one of the first

3 things that did happened, which is that the Council of Ministers that was

4 named in December actually has a meeting.

5 Q. That's found at tab 78. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the first

6 page, which appears to be -- the highlights appear to be primarily a list

7 of those in attendance.

8 A. Yes. This is -- this document represents the minutes of the 1st

9 Session of the Ministerial Council of the Assembly, took place on the 11th

10 of January. The document itself is dated the 13th. And I'd just like to

11 point out here that among those present were Dr. Karadzic and

12 Mr. Krajisnik, as well as some other individuals, such as Rajko Dukic, the

13 president of the Executive Committee of the SDS, who were not members of

14 the Ministerial Council but again typically for the types of meetings that

15 the Bosnian Serb leadership held, the list of attendees was not by any

16 means restricted to those who were members of a given body.

17 Q. You've also highlighted a portion found at page 12 of the

18 document. I'm sorry. It appears to be page 2. And that is the paragraph

19 numbered 2, and headed, "Execution of tasks resulting from the declaration

20 of the promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina."

22 A. Yes. And as the Court can see, Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik,

23 among others, among other non-members of the council, took active part in

24 the discussion and the participants identified the defining of the ethnic

25 territory, as well as the establishment of government organs, as one of

Page 1543

1 the priorities in their activities now, defining the territory of a

2 political unit being rather fundamental.

3 Q. Just for clarity, that highlight continues on to the next page, it

4 appears. And also highlighted on page 3, in the middle of the page, also

5 enumerated number 2, is a short paragraph referring to the material

6 entitled regionalisation, indicating Dr. Skoko is responsible for the

7 execution of these tasks.

8 A. Right. Here we see continued interest in the development of the

9 regions and Dr. Skoko is given the responsibility for preparing some sort

10 of report on that subject. Dr. Skoko was an official in the -- I believe

11 in the statistical centre of the republic. That is the institution which

12 is occupied with carrying out the census and tabulating its results, that

13 sort of thing.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't think there are further clips

15 from the 1st Session of the Council of Ministers, and therefore this might

16 be an appropriate time to adjourn.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it's a quarter to 2.00, so we have to stop

18 anyhow. But if you'll just allow me to finish my shorthand annotation.

19 Yes. It's a quarter to 2.00. We have to adjourn. We adjourn

20 until tomorrow morning, 9.00 o'clock, in this same courtroom, Madam

21 Registrar, if I'm not making a mistake, in this same courtroom,

22 therefore.

23 Mr. Treanor, same instruction as the other days of your testimony,

24 not to speak with anyone about your testimony given and still to be given,

25 and we expect you to be back tomorrow morning at 9.00 o'clock in the same

Page 1544

1 courtroom.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We stay adjourned.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

6 February 2004, at 9.00 a.m.