Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2300

1 Tuesday, 20 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. I see that Mr. Stewart is

6 not in.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. He won't be here

8 today.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So for the Defence today we have Ms. Loukas and

10 Ms. Cmeric; and for the Prosecution, we have Mr. Tieger and Mr. Hannis.

11 But we first have to know in what case. Madam Registrar, would

12 you please call the case.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

14 Momcilo Krajisnik.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16 On the programme today is, as a result of some conversations

17 yesterday between the parties, the examination of Mr. Fazlovic to be

18 finished, and then we'll stop, but not before having dealt with the

19 documents in respect of Mr. Treanor.

20 If there's nothing else on the agenda -- yes, Mr. Hannis.

21 MR. HANNIS: Nothing else.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing else. Yes. Madam Usher, would you then,

23 please, escort Mr. Fazlovic into the courtroom.

24 Perhaps I should ask you whether the conversation of yesterday

25 also resulted in another statement of Mr. Fazlovic as far as redactions

Page 2301

1 are concerned.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. I've received a

3 further corrected copy, both in English and B/C/S, from Mr. Hannis this

4 morning.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that P71 is not the one we thought

6 it would be, but we have a new version. Yes.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Fazlovic. Before we resume, I'd

9 like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

10 you've given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony. Yes.

11 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

16 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, if at any time you need to have a copy of your

17 statement in front of you, please let me know and we'll provide that to

18 you.

19 When we left off yesterday, you were telling us about when Mirko

20 Blagojevic and a group of his soldiers came to the fire station and

21 separated you and the other Muslim firemen from the Serb firemen. Can you

22 tell us what happened after they took you outside and physically beat

23 you. What happened next?

24 A. When they identified us as Muslims, they started to beat us in the

25 corridor of the firehouse and mistreat us in other manner. Then this

Page 2302

1 person by the name of Dragan wanted to kill us all. He said: You should

2 all be killed. And then Mirko Blagojevic said, after someone had told

3 him, that we should go to the police station, which is located about 500

4 metres from the firehouse. They told us to put our hands behind our head

5 like this, and then they escorted us down the main road, down the main

6 street. The man who led us kept beating us with his rubber baton.

7 As we were walking down the main street, we noticed armed groups

8 leading other people from the side streets. We were being taken towards

9 the police station; I don't know where they were taking them. We came

10 across one more group of armed and uniformed soldiers who asked our leader

11 who we were, and he said that we were snipers from the fire brigade and

12 that he was taking us to the SUP, to the police station. And then this

13 other man said: Just move away. I'll kill them right here on the spot.

14 But our leader then said: Mirko told us to take them to the police

15 station.

16 When we came close to the police station, I noticed, near the

17 Borovo shop, a friend of mine who used to work with me at the fire

18 station. He was wearing a military uniform. He just bent his head down

19 and said nothing.

20 When we came close to the SUP building, some five or six metres

21 away from the building, we saw a group of soldiers who formed two lines,

22 two rows, through which we had to pass, and they kept beating us as we

23 were going inside the police station. I saw a number of people covered

24 with blood in the police station. When we got in, they told us to form a

25 line and face the wall. They kept us there for half an hour, like this,

Page 2303

1 verbally abused us, and at one point they told us to turn around. And

2 when we turned around, we saw that the whole station was in a state of

3 chaos. There were many soldiers there. I noticed Veselic among them.

4 Veselic was a secondary school teacher, I think. He was the one who was

5 inspecting some papers. Once again they wanted us to show them our IDs.

6 There was a small reception box at the SUP which was now covered

7 with paper. There was only a small window through which someone was

8 observing us. Police officers continued to mistreat us. They made fun of

9 us. They put some sort of green beret on our head and accused us of being

10 Ustashas or Green Berets. We tried to tell them that we were simply doing

11 our job, that we had nothing against the army and that that's why we

12 stayed, because we believed that they would protect us, as we had been

13 told initially.

14 Q. Excuse me. Let me stop you there for a second, Mr. Fazlovic. And

15 Dragan Veselic, who you saw in the police station, do you know what his

16 position was in the police department?

17 A. Before the war, he did not work for the police, so I'm not sure I

18 can tell you with certainty what his position was in the SUP. But he must

19 have been someone important, because he was making decisions. He must

20 have been some sort of police commander.

21 Q. And did he tell you and your fellow firemen what was going to

22 happen to you?

23 A. Yes. He said we should all be taken to Luka and that we should

24 all be killed. Other soldiers followed suit and they kept saying: You

25 balijas should never return. You're finished. And things like that.

Page 2304

1 So we stood there waiting to be taken to the Luka camp, and then

2 at one point a man arrived, a man whom I didn't know, who had come to

3 Brcko earlier, who -- and he recognised me because I was the president of

4 the union at one point. We had a blockade -- we had blocked a road

5 because of some salaries that had not been paid and that's where he saw

6 me. He had some kind of argument with Veselic and others who were there,

7 and he convinced him that we were still necessary for the town because the

8 town was still on fire, a lot of houses were still burning, and that it

9 would be a good idea for us to be taken back to the firehouse, because we

10 were needed, which Veselic accepted, and he told one of the police

11 officers to take us back to the fire station. However, this police

12 officer, Pudic, instead took us to the Luka camp.

13 I personally knew this police officer, and as we were passing by

14 the Posavina Hotel and the Radnik cinema, I saw a large number of bodies

15 on a pile. I got frightened and said: Pudic, where are you taking us?

16 And he said: I'm taking you to Luka. And I said: Well, this other

17 gentleman told you that should take us back to the police station [as

18 interpreted]. So we somehow managed to convince him to take us back. He

19 had to check something before he eventually took us to the firehouse.

20 Q. And the man who --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

23 Q. The man who intervened on your behalf at the police station, was

24 he also a policeman? And if so, what was his position?

25 A. I'm sure that he was a policeman. Before the war he had been

Page 2305

1 employed there as a traffic police commander. I think his last name was

2 Milic, but I'm not sure. He was either from Orasje or Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. When you eventually got back to the fire station, were there still

4 soldiers at the fire station?

5 A. Yes. Soldiers were still there, but there were not that many as

6 initially. Mirko Blagojevic, for instance, was still there, and his

7 entourage, his staff. We had a restaurant at the firehouse, upstairs, and

8 he decided that he would set up his headquarters there.

9 Q. And once you got back to the fire station, because of the

10 experience that you'd had at the police station, did you make some efforts

11 to contact the JNA garrison to see if you could be sure of some

12 protection?

13 A. Yes. When we came back to the fire station, we were terribly

14 scared. We all shivered. And we asked one of our colleagues from the

15 firehouse to call Pavle Milinkovic, the commander of the JNA garrison, and

16 to ask him if he could perhaps relocate us, if he could move us from there

17 because we simply didn't dare to spend the night with those people inside

18 the firehouse. So this colleague of ours made a phone call in our

19 presence. I think he wanted to speak to the commander, who was not there

20 at that moment.

21 Q. So who did he speak to instead?

22 A. He spoke to Milorad Sehovac. Milorad Sehovac I think was the

23 commander of some sort of special unit within the JNA. Our colleague told

24 us [as interpreted] that we were very frightened, and he asked if there

25 was anything that could be done for us. And the officer said: But why

Page 2306

1 are they scared? Those people are here to defend the Serb people. But

2 then our colleague explained to him that we had been beaten and

3 mistreated. But this officer said: Just nothing. It's good that they

4 are alive.

5 Q. Now, on the 10th of May, about six days after this happened, did

6 you have occasion to see Major Sehovac at the fire station?

7 A. Yes. On or around that date, a man whom I didn't know arrived.

8 This was Major Sehovac. He was wearing a Serb uniform with army insignia.

9 He was escorted by soldiers, a number of soldiers. There were several of

10 them when they arrived. And he ordered all of us to go outside. He then

11 ordered the group who had worked at the water station - I think there were

12 five or six of them - to get out as well. Then he ordered us to lie down,

13 else he would kill us all.

14 So we complied, and then he said he wanted to know who called

15 Meraje, the Meraje neighbourhood of Brcko. I had no idea what he was

16 talking about. And then he said: Tell me who that was, otherwise I'll

17 kill you all. And then Franjo Vugrincic, a Croat, I believe, spoke up,

18 and he said: Sir, I was the one who called.

19 I couldn't see what was happening. I couldn't see when he got up,

20 because we were all lying down, face down. And he said: Why did you call

21 Meraje? And then he said: My wife is a Serb and this part of town is

22 being shelled, so I was concerned about what was going on. And then he

23 wanted to know why he called Rahici, a village located some seven to eight

24 kilometres from the town, and he said that he had called his former

25 manager, because he wanted to know what to do, because the water tower had

Page 2307

1 been damaged and water was leaking, and he needed instructions. He wanted

2 to know what to do.

3 Then he told him to get up and he told another soldier to take him

4 away and kill him. I believe he also ordered him to take off his shoes.

5 Then we heard a shot. I couldn't see what happened because this

6 was away from where we were and we were still lying down on the ground.

7 He said that this is how all of you will fare if you don't comply. I

8 don't know what exactly happened to this man. All I know that he -- is

9 that he never showed up again. No one ever saw him alive again.

10 We were terribly scared. We were then told to get up. Sehovac

11 saw that I was very frightened and he just tapped me on the shoulder and

12 he said: This is nothing. What are you -- why are you so scared? After

13 which we all went back inside.

14 Q. Before you went back inside, did you hear Major Sehovac give

15 anyone an order about what to do with the man who had been taken away

16 before the gunshot was heard?

17 A. He said: Take him to Petrovic. Petrovic was in charge of

18 security at the garrison before the war, and he said: Don't let him walk

19 away alive. He will be personally responsible for his life.

20 Q. The soldiers who were with the officer, what kind of uniforms were

21 they wearing?

22 A. The officers wore regular olive-drab uniforms. One of them had a

23 kind of cap or hat that covered his -- all of his face except his eyes. I

24 didn't recognise any of them. They were not from the town. Whereas this

25 one whose face was hidden must have been a local.

Page 2308












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2309

1 Q. Now, next I want to direct you to --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.

4 Q. Next I want to direct you to paragraph 23 in your statement, where

5 you talk about a special unit that had been formed. Do you recall a

6 special unit formed by a man named Pedja in your municipality?

7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would object to leading of this

8 nature.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the witness has already confirmed

10 that his statement is -- it has been read by him, he has confirmed that

11 this is a correct --

12 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, but if we're going to go through

13 this process of eliciting further evidence in chief from the statement, I

14 think it's appropriate that, particularly in relation to evidence of this

15 nature, that it not be led.


17 Mr. Hannis, if you want to elicit any further information from the

18 witness, would you refrain from leading.

19 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour. And could he then be handed a

20 copy of his statement, please.



23 Q. How did you know about this special unit?

24 A. The special unit was set up quite some time before the war by the

25 JNA. It consisted of people from our town who were notorious for their

Page 2310

1 misbehaviour, were quite problematic characters, and who used to go to

2 Croatia, to Vukovar, and other similar places to fight there over the

3 weekend, after which they would come back.

4 The commander -- or rather, the organiser of this unit was Pedja

5 Bojanic, an architect from Brcko. I once spoke to Ranko Cesic and he told

6 me that he was just sitting there in this unit, doing nothing and

7 receiving a salary, and this is how I know about this unit. And I used to

8 see them around the town wearing red berets.

9 Q. Was there anything else particular about the uniforms of this

10 special unit that was different from other uniforms of military men around

11 town?

12 A. Yes. At first, they had very good uniforms, very good quality,

13 camouflage uniforms, brand new. Everything was brand new. The only

14 difference was in the beret they wore, and there was a sign on it. I

15 think it was the number 40 sign or something like that. I don't remember

16 exactly.

17 Q. You mentioned that you had conversations with Ranko Cesic and in

18 paragraph 25 of your statement, you tell us that Mr. Cesic explained that

19 part of his job was to cleanse part of the town. Would you tell the Court

20 what Ranko said about that.

21 A. He said that, together with his group -- the shelling was intense

22 and everybody had run away from the city and those who stayed were hiding

23 in the basement and waiting to see what would happen. Those were innocent

24 people, elderly people, women and children. And he said the job of his

25 unit was to go from house to house. Those were mostly abandoned houses

Page 2311

1 because the first wave of attack had already passed, the first wave of

2 attack by the JNA. So they went from house to house mopping up the

3 terrain, so to speak, to make sure that nobody was left behind, and those

4 left behind were taken to Luka and to Laser, which was a transport

5 enterprise. They were also being taken to Posavina. Their job was to

6 make sure that nobody was left behind, to take everyone away, and to make

7 sure that it was cleansed.

8 Q. And during this time when you were told to stay at the fire

9 station until -- or unless you were called out to put out fires, in the

10 course of going around town, doing your job, did you see any evidence of

11 people having been removed from parts of town? Do you understand my

12 question?

13 A. Yes. When we were being escorted, I noticed that people were

14 being removed from their apartments, houses. They were being taken away

15 by armed people at gunpoint to the police station or elsewhere. Briefly,

16 everybody who was Muslim or Croat was taken to one of these centres to be

17 checked.

18 And a little later, I remember very well when people were being

19 rounded up to be taken to the Batkovici camp. I think that Luka by that

20 time had stopped admitting Muslims and Croats. And they removed everyone

21 who was Croat or Muslim from their residence, put them on buses. This was

22 all done in a very organised way, and I know about it for certain because

23 my uncle had been taken the same way.

24 Q. And did that round-up include women and children as well as men?

25 A. This round-up for the Batkovici camp involved only men, but at the

Page 2312

1 very beginning of the war, they rounded up everyone: Men and women, to

2 take them to Luka, to Posavina, to the barracks. They would keep the

3 prettier women in Luka. They would rape them.

4 Q. And how did you know about that?

5 A. I know about that because Ranko himself told me a couple of times

6 that they had some women back there to whom they referred to as

7 hostesses. He told me they slept on a regular basis with Muslim women who

8 used to be ladies, upper class women, and now were nothing. These women

9 included the wife of a lawyer by the name of Fatic, who was detained and

10 later killed.

11 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, I want to ask you about a time in -- I think in your

12 statement you say in June or July, when the mosques were destroyed. Do

13 you remember that day?

14 A. Yes. I'll never forget that day. It was around 2.00 p.m. We

15 were sitting in the fire brigade station: Myself, Mujo Islamovic, Milorad

16 Sekic, Miroslav Pantelic, and some other blokes, when we heard a loud

17 explosion. The walls shook and we were all taken aback, shocked. We

18 wondered what was going on. Very soon afterwards we received a telephone

19 call. The caller told us that the mosque - and I know it was the Sava

20 mosque - was blown up and that we shouldn't go there, but we should go

21 when the wooden mosque burns because of the danger that the fire would

22 spread. I don't remember who it was that said the other two mosques will

23 go up in the air very soon.

24 It was done in an organised, premeditated way. We moved to the

25 next window because we were not able to see the mosque from the window we

Page 2313

1 were sitting by. We heard an explosion and we heard the -- we saw the

2 minaret fall. We went out and, taking the road that goes around the

3 mosques, we went to the health centre, and when we were close to the

4 crossroads near that other mosque, it exploded. We came near and we found

5 soldiers in the courtyard of the Zaim Musanovic school. The soldiers were

6 laughing and merry, and we ran into a man who said: You shouldn't have

7 come now, you should have waited for my call. He told us that we should

8 just stand by and make sure that the fire didn't spread to the health

9 centre or some other building.

10 Not long after that, perhaps half an hour later, people from the

11 SDS came to the scene, including Ranko Ristanic, who at that time was

12 president of the municipality. The name is actually Djordje Ristanic.

13 There was also Nedjo Ilic, head of the health centre, and a man I didn't

14 know who accompanied them. And they talked about this business with the

15 mosques. They said the person who did this used too much explosives, he

16 must have been an amateur because the entire health centre is ruined, all

17 the windows are shattered. And thus they kept standing there for a while,

18 and before they said: Let's go to this other place, to the other scene

19 and see how much damage there is.

20 The man that I didn't know among them --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

22 MS. LOUKAS: The statement has been tendered. We're now going

23 through this process of eliciting supposedly further evidence in chief

24 from the statement. I don't think it's appropriate in those circumstances

25 that the witness has the statement in front of him and is apparently

Page 2314

1 reading from it at various points.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: Let me ask just a few more questions, Your Honour,

4 and I think we'll be finished with him and he won't need to read from his

5 statement about what I want to ask him.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if you perhaps could put the statement a

7 bit on the side and answer the questions from Mr. Hannis without further

8 reading your statement, Mr. Fazlovic. Yes.


10 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, let me ask you about the mosques in Brcko. How many

11 were there that you know of?

12 A. There were four mosques in the town itself. In fact, in the town

13 itself, there were three in the centre of town, and they were blown up.

14 Q. Can you tell us, what were the names of the three or how were

15 those three described?

16 A. One was called the Savska mosque because it was close to the Sava

17 River, another one was called Bijela, or "white mosque" because it was

18 white, and the third was known as the wooden mosque because it was made of

19 wood.

20 Q. And do you recall which one was blown up first on that day?

21 A. The first to be blown up was the Savska mosque, followed by

22 Bijela, and the wooden mosque was the last, within 15 minutes all three of

23 them.

24 Q. And after the first one was blown up but before the second and

25 third one were blown up, I understand from your statement that someone

Page 2315

1 told you the other two were going to go. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. One of my friends, one of my Serb friends

3 who were working with me, told me that. And there was another indication

4 of this; namely, my mother-in-law lived in a building close to the fire

5 station. My mother-in-law is Croat. All the other apartments had windows

6 taped over, and she did not tape her windows in time, because she didn't

7 know that this would happen. She didn't protect her windows from

8 shattering.

9 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the people who lived in the

10 apartments whose windows were taped up?

11 A. They were Serbs.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. HANNIS: I have no more questions for this witness at this

14 time, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

16 Ms. Loukas, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlovic, you'll now be examined by counsel for

19 the Defence. Please proceed.

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

21 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, I think you indicated that on the 1st of May - this

22 is in your statement at paragraph 3 - that the JNA came to the fire

23 brigade and you were not mistreated by them. That's correct, isn't it?

24 A. The army troops did not mistreat us, but they didn't let us go

25 home that day.

Page 2316

1 Q. And I think that you indicated in your evidence yesterday that

2 they spoke kindly to you, that "they kindly asked us not to leave the

3 building."

4 A. They explained nicely that they were the Yugoslav People's Army,

5 that they were there to prevent bloodshed, and that we had to stay in the

6 fire station. Yes, they spoke nicely, but they didn't let us go home.

7 They told us we had to stay there, and they did it nicely.

8 Q. Now, I think you've also indicated that you were -- in your

9 statement, that you were detained at the fire station until the 15th of

10 September, 1992. That's at paragraph 44 of your statement.

11 A. I don't know the exact date. It was 12 years ago. But a month or

12 so before I was exchanged, I was in the fire station for the whole time,

13 and I was unable to go home, because my home was not fit for -- as a

14 residence any longer.

15 Q. Now, you've indicated that you were detained at the fire station

16 until the 15th of September, 1992. Who was detaining you at the fire

17 station?

18 A. Well, the so-called labour obligation, or the work obligation.

19 That's the reason why we had to stay there. We had beds inside. However,

20 the Serb colleagues were able to go home and work their normal shifts,

21 whereas we had to sleep there.

22 Q. So the situation was that you say you were detained there as a

23 result of a work obligation, but only the Muslim fire-fighters had to stay

24 there as a result of this work obligation; is that what you're saying?

25 A. Yes. The whole time, 24 hours a day.

Page 2317












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2318

1 Q. Was there anyone at the fire brigade keeping you there?

2 A. Do you mean -- where do you think I was able to go? I didn't

3 rightly understand. I don't understand your question when you say was

4 anyone preventing you from going away, from going out. Serbs were all

5 around and my life would be in danger had I gone out into the street.

6 Q. I'm just trying to get you to explain to the Court what you mean

7 by "detained at the fire station," which you've got in your statement at

8 paragraph 44.

9 A. What I mean is we had to stay inside. We were told that we should

10 stay there as long as it is necessary. Nobody said in so many words:

11 "You have to be here." But that was implied. It went without saying.

12 When the work obligation was proclaimed, and even before, it didn't cross

13 our minds to go out into the street, because it was dangerous. That place

14 was the safest place for me as a Muslim, because people, for the most

15 part, didn't even know that I was a Muslim as long as I was doing my job.

16 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, you indicate in your statement that

17 certain gentlemen came to the fire department; Blagojevic, Stankovic, and

18 Dragan. And I think you've indicated there that Dragan looked almost

19 retarded. Is that right?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And I think at another point you've indicated that Ranko - this is

22 at paragraph 29 - at one point gave you the impression that he was a

23 lunatic.

24 A. May I have a look at that paragraph 29?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you --

Page 2319

1 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I understand.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You have no objection --

3 MS. LOUKAS: I have no objection.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please. It's a short paragraph. If you

5 could please read it, Mr. Fazlovic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Paragraph 29 does not say that

7 it was Ranko who said this man was a lunatic.


9 Q. That wasn't my question, Mr. Fazlovic. My question --

10 A. You said that Ranko told me that that man was a lunatic, and we

11 are referring to that man Dragan. I don't know if Ranko knew him at all.

12 I don't see any reference to him here.

13 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, I'll just read my question to you again exactly the

14 same question: "And I think at another point you've indicated that Ranko

15 - this is at paragraph 29 - at one point gave you the impression that he

16 was a lunatic."

17 JUDGE ORIE: But the question, of course, is not quite clear, that

18 if you say "he was a lunatic," it could refer to the person earlier

19 described or to Ranko himself. It's ambiguous, the question.

20 So I think you are -- the question of Ms. Loukas is whether you

21 described Ranko at one point to be -- that he seemed to be a lunatic to

22 you. Is that correct?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand now. I understand. I

24 thought the lady was asking about this other man Dragan. Yes, in one

25 situation, Ranko did appear to me very, very odd.

Page 2320


2 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Fazlovic. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, I think you

3 understand the distinction between evidence that you've actually

4 experienced yourself, something you saw or heard or experienced yourself,

5 on the one hand, and indirect evidence or hearsay evidence, something

6 you've heard from someone else. Do you understand that distinction?

7 A. The difference between things that I experienced myself and those

8 that I only heard about, yes.

9 Q. Exactly. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, you've got your statement in front of

10 you. If you'd like to go to page 6 of your statement.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you'll see in that particular paragraph that -- paragraph 23.

13 That's the first paragraph on page 6 in the English version. I'm not sure

14 if paragraph 23 is on page 6 in the B/C/S version. Have you got that

15 particular paragraph, 23?

16 A. You mean the paragraph that starts: "When the war began in

17 Croatia"?

18 Q. Exactly. Now, you see there that you say that: "Two or three

19 months before the war began in Brcko, a young Serb soldier, Pedja Bojanic,

20 formed a special unit which was attached to the JNA." Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, the situation is that that's something you've

23 heard about as opposed to being something you can give direct evidence

24 about.

25 A. Yes, that's something I heard about. Of course I wasn't a member

Page 2321

1 of that unit, and I don't have any inside knowledge of what they did.

2 Q. Now, at page 7 of the English version - that's paragraph 34 - have

3 you found that in the B/C/S version, Mr. Fazlovic?

4 A. The paragraphs are a bit different in different versions. Is this

5 the one that begins with "I also saw Ranko, Miso, and Pero"?

6 Q. That's correct, yes. Now, you'll see in there a sentence: "The

7 Republic of Srpska had ordered that all military groups go under the joint

8 command of the republic." Do you see that sentence there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And again, that's something you heard about as opposed to being

11 something you can give direct evidence about?

12 A. Yes, that's what I heard from this friend I had, Nikolic. But it

13 was no secret. It was known, because all units had to go to the front

14 line, including the units that were under the work obligation, and this

15 also applied to my unit, to the fire brigade, whose staff also had to go

16 to the front line because they were short of people, short of men.

17 Q. I understand that, Mr. Fazlovic, but again, this is not something

18 you can give direct evidence about, but something that you've heard from

19 other people. And you'd agree with that?

20 A. I don't know how I could have direct, firsthand knowledge about

21 it. This is something I could only have heard about. Most people know

22 about it the same way. But I also received my own orders concerning the

23 work obligation at the time as well.

24 Q. Now, moving along to another topic, Mr. Fazlovic.

25 MS. LOUKAS: If I might have a moment, Your Honour.

Page 2322

1 Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, you indicate that -- you indicate in your statement

3 and you indicated in your evidence today that in June or July you gave

4 certain evidence in relation to the mosques. You recall giving that

5 evidence today?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you indicated, both in your statement and in your evidence

8 today, that there was a man in camouflage uniform when you got there who

9 basically said words to the effect of: Do not put out the fire, just make

10 sure it doesn't spread to other buildings. Do you recall that part of

11 your evidence?

12 A. Yes, I remember that man very well. His arms were in bandages.

13 But he was not alone there at that point.

14 Q. And I think in your -- you've indicated that the way he treated

15 other Chetniks - that's the word you used - "gave me the impression he was

16 in charge." So the reason you felt he was in charge was the way he

17 treated other Chetniks; is that basically the situation?

18 A. Yes. I believe that he happened to be in charge there and then.

19 I believe that his soldiers were stationed at the Zaim Musanovic

20 elementary school, that school being located right across the street from

21 the police station.

22 Q. And so --

23 THE WITNESS: It's not from the police station. It's from the

24 mosque.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies from the interpreter. The witness is

Page 2323

1 right.


3 THE INTERPRETER: But could he, at the same time, be asked to slow

4 down and move closer to the microphone.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlovic, the interpreters ask you to come a bit

6 closer to the microphone, and thank you for making this correction. The

7 interpreters do their utmost best to translate every word as exact as

8 possible, but it's human to make a mistake now and then, and I see that

9 you're following the English translation. Please proceed.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, so the reason that you thought he was an

12 officer was the impression that you'd formed that he was in charge; is

13 that correct?

14 A. The impression that he was in charge is because he shouted to the

15 soldiers who were there, he asked them: Why didn't you wait for me to

16 tell you to do it? Apparently they were too early to react and that is

17 why he said that. That's the basis for my assumption.

18 Q. The basis for your assumption being that he was shouting at

19 people, as you've just said. That's correct, is it not?

20 A. He shouted at the soldiers, and only a superior can shout at his

21 men.

22 Q. Now, this was a gentleman you'd never previously seen before,

23 Mr. Fazlovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... who he was?

Page 2324

1 A. No.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues]... and he was a man wearing a

3 camouflage uniform?

4 A. Yes. All of the soldiers wore uniforms.

5 Q. All camouflage uniforms?

6 A. I cannot say with certainty about others - my memory has faded

7 somewhat - but I remember him wearing a camouflage shirt. It was

8 summertime.

9 Q. So you remember him wearing a camouflage shirt but you don't

10 remember what he was wearing on the bottom?

11 A. He was wearing a complete camouflage uniform, but not with a

12 jacket. He only had camouflage trousers and camouflage shirt.

13 Q. Now, when you arrived at the mosque, you've indicated that you

14 stood in the street next to the truck. And I take it that was right next

15 to the mosque?

16 A. Yes. Right there in the street. The mosque was on the street.

17 Q. And how long were you there at the mosque?

18 A. For about an hour, an hour and a half, until the fire came down a

19 little.

20 Q. So in metres, how far were you from the mosque where you were

21 standing for that hour and a half or so?

22 A. Some 20 metres away.

23 Q. And obviously, during that period, your attention was, of course,

24 as a fire-fighter, on the fire.

25 A. There was no need for us to pay our attention to the fire because

Page 2325

1 that's what they told us not to do. We just came closer a little bit. We

2 were standing there near the health centre, just for appearances' sake.

3 Q. Well, weren't you told: Do not put out the fire. Make sure it

4 does not spread to the medical centre or other buildings? So to ensure

5 that it didn't spread to other buildings, you'd have to keep your eye on

6 the fire, wouldn't you?

7 A. That is what we were told. However, the mosque is separated by

8 the street and the health centre parking lot from other buildings. There

9 were about 20 metres -- there was a distance of 20 metres between the

10 mosque and the next house. There was practically no need for us to be

11 there because the fire could not easily spread to the surrounding

12 buildings. But yes, we were told to watch for the fire not to spread to

13 the nearby buildings, but I, as a fire-fighter, knew that the fire could

14 not spread so I just stood there with others.

15 Q. Watching the fire?

16 A. Watching the fire, the people around me, the health centre, the

17 soldiers who were standing across the street.

18 Q. And you said that you were standing there near the health centre

19 just for appearances' sake. Do you recall saying that in answer to a

20 question in the last five minutes?

21 A. Well, I said I was there in the vicinity of the mosque, in the

22 vicinity of the health centre. Yes, I was present. I had been called to

23 come and put down the fire, however, we were not permitted to put out the

24 fire. And the remainder of the time we spent standing there observing. I

25 didn't know what to do. Because I was perfectly aware that it was not

Page 2326












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2327

1 possible for this fire to spread to the health centre. I was there for no

2 reason, because I was not there to put out the fire.

3 Q. And just for appearances' sake, you said.

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I believe this has been asked and

5 answered.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I see that Ms. Loukas is seeking confirmation of that

7 earlier answer. But I do not mind, but would you please come to your

8 point, Ms. Loukas.


10 Q. For appearances' sake, Mr. Fazlovic?

11 A. Could you please repeat your question. What is it that you want

12 from me?

13 Q. [Previous translation continues]... confirm that you've said

14 today, within the last five minutes, that you were standing there for

15 appearances' sake.

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the record speaks for itself.

17 JUDGE ORIE: In the English translation, Mr. Fazlovic, we read

18 that you said: "We are standing there near the health centre just for

19 appearances' sake." Ms. Loukas would like to know whether that is exactly

20 what you said. She -- as you are aware, your words are translated and she

21 seeks verification that those were your words.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the witness said in

23 Serbo-Croat "reda radi."

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me try to explain. We had been

25 called to intervene; however, we were not allowed to intervene. We were

Page 2328

1 told initially that we should be there so that the fire would not spread

2 to the health centre and the neighbouring houses that were some 30 or 40

3 metres away. On the other side of the mosque there was the street, so

4 there was no danger for the fire to spread. So in my opinion, it seemed

5 to me that we were there pro forma, for appearances' sake, because we were

6 simply standing there without being able to perform any duty whatsoever.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Ms. Loukas.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. So, Mr. Fazlovic, you'd have to agree, wouldn't you, that a group

10 of fire-fighters standing around while the building burns down isn't much

11 of an appearance for a group of fire-fighters.

12 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. I don't understand the

13 relevance. It's argumentative.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, of course the expression "for

15 appearances' sake" is not very clear, and therefore, to ask the witness

16 whether you'd -- I think he explained several times now what he meant by

17 "for appearances' sake," and that it is that they were there but were not

18 able to do anything. Your question suggests, however, that it's not a big

19 appearance of a fire-fighter doing nothing. Whatever the witness would

20 answer to that question would make not that much of a difference for our

21 understanding of the testimony. Please proceed.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. I withdraw that question, Your Honour.

23 Q. Now, getting on to the situation you found yourself in there.

24 There was burning and damaged buildings; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2329

1 Q. There were lots of people around?

2 A. Yes. Where? Where do you mean that there were a lot of people?

3 Q. When you were standing around watching the mosque, still next to

4 the mosque.

5 A. Yes, it was only the mosque that was on fire. I didn't say that

6 other buildings were on fire. You misquoted my words. I don't know why.

7 It was only the mosque that was ablaze. Other buildings only had

8 shattered windows and roofs that had been damaged in the detonation.

9 Soldiers were in the yard of the Zaim Musanovic house. There was a couple

10 of soldiers right next to the mosque. I identified one of them in my

11 statement. Afterwards, gentlemen from the municipality, from the SDS,

12 arrived.

13 Q. Yes. In any event, there was a burning building and there were

14 damaged buildings nearby; is that correct?

15 A. The mosque was burning, and the buildings around the mosque only

16 had damaged windows, damaged glass.

17 Q. Okay. Anyway, the mosque is burning, you've got some damaged

18 buildings, damaged in the sense that the windows were broken, you've got a

19 lot of people around; agree with all of that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There's a lot of noise?

22 A. No. No, because the soldiers, who were the most numerous, were

23 right across the street, in the yard. We were quite alone on the side

24 over there. I mean we the fire-fighters. A soldier would come closer

25 from time to time and comment something with respect to the fire.

Page 2330

1 Q. So you've got a lot of people around, but there's not a lot of

2 noise; is that what you're saying, Mr. Fazlovic?

3 A. Do you want -- are you trying to say that there were people around

4 me, around the place where I was standing, or in the vicinity? In the

5 vicinity, yes; some 60 to 70 metres away, there were soldiers who were

6 located at the elementary school, Zaim Musanovic.

7 Q. So only soldiers around, not any other people, is what you're

8 saying.

9 A. Yes, when we arrived, only soldiers. It was only later that the

10 people from the municipality, whom I referred to, arrived.

11 Q. So there weren't any other people around at all other than the

12 soldiers you have referred to and the people from the municipality?

13 A. No. Just us, the fire-fighters. That part of the town had been

14 vacated, or cleansed. There was no one actually living in that

15 neighbourhood at that time.

16 Q. In any event, you say that these people from the municipality

17 turned up in a car and then they parked the car. I take it they parked

18 the car several metres away from where you were, at least.

19 A. Yes. They parked right next to the fire-engine.

20 Q. They parked right next to the fire-engine?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How far away were they from you?

23 A. A couple of metres.

24 Q. And you say you heard this conversation, Mr. Fazlovic. Obviously

25 they weren't speaking to you, were they?

Page 2331

1 A. No. It was a conversation that they had amongst themselves.

2 Q. And being absolutely fair, Mr. Fazlovic, you'd have to agree that

3 you could not, obviously, hear all of the conversation.

4 A. Yes. Why not? It was taking place right next to me. I could

5 hear very well what I just told you.

6 Q. Now, you've indicated in your statement that they got out of the

7 car and Ristanic said to Nedjo and another man: Too much explosives were

8 put here, et cetera.

9 Now, obviously you're saying that conversation occurred when --

10 the minute they got out of the car. Do you agree with that?

11 A. Well, I don't know whether it was the minute or two minutes after

12 they got out of the car. I don't see any importance of that. I know what

13 they said. I was present when they said that. It was Djordje Ristanic

14 who made this comment.

15 Q. I understand what you're saying. But you'd agree with me that it

16 was very soon after they got out of the car, according to your evidence.

17 A. Yes. When they got out of the car, they observed the situation,

18 and then they started talking about it.

19 Q. Now, so for all you know, the fact is that they could have been

20 saying in the car: If some idiot or fanatic is going to be stupid enough

21 to blow up the mosque, and then the rest of the conversation followed, for

22 all you know. You'd have to agree with that, to be fair, wouldn't you?

23 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. It calls for speculation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, the conversation in the car could

25 have been about opera, about the war, about whatever. Let's just seek to

Page 2332

1 hear from the witness what he heard, and all the rest is speculation,

2 unless you have any better source for it. Please proceed.


4 Q. So obviously, Mr. Fazlovic, you can't speculate as to what

5 conversation immediately preceded that conversation that you say you

6 heard. You'd agree with that, would you not?

7 A. What they talked about before, before that? I have no idea what

8 they had talked about before, but I know exactly what they said then and

9 there, when I was present. I can repeat their words if you want me to,

10 but I again have no idea what they had discussed before that.

11 Q. There's no need for you to repeat what they said. Just briefly,

12 Mr. Fazlovic: This statement that you gave to the Prosecution I think

13 took two days, did it?

14 A. Yes, I think so.

15 Q. And that was the 14th and 15th of March, 1995?

16 A. Yes. I'm sure about the year; however, I'm not a hundred per cent

17 sure about the date. The date, it was a long time ago.

18 Q. In any event, it took two days to give your statement; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes. I gave the statement in Tuzla.

21 Q. And how many hours per day were you doing on the statement on

22 those two days that you were giving the statement to the Prosecution?

23 A. I don't know. I just know that it was not two full days. It

24 could have been maybe for two or three hours, but I'm not sure. I know

25 that we had breaks and that we would start again. I really cannot

Page 2333

1 remember the details and tell you how many hours I spent giving the

2 statement in Tuzla.

3 Q. In any event, it was several hours spread over two days.

4 A. Yes. I think two or three hours per day for two days.

5 Q. And obviously you were given a chance to read your statement

6 before you signed it.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you were asked if it was true and accurate?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And you were asked if you had anything to add.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic --

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, perhaps the Prosecution could provide

14 Mr. Fazlovic with an unblocked-out copy of his statement.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, could you assist.

16 MR. HANNIS: I'm just checking, Your Honour.


18 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I only have an English copy

19 that's not blocked out.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I have -- oh, unless the time. It's

21 probably time to --

22 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on -- if you say -- how much time would

23 you still need, approximately?

24 MS. LOUKAS: Not that long, I must say, but I may as well just get

25 -- no. Unfortunately, that's also a blacked-out copy. I just need an

Page 2334

1 unblacked-out copy.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If you say you need more than -- I'd say more than

3 seven minutes, if we could not finish by 25 minutes to 11.00, and we would

4 have to have a break anyhow. Apart from that, we still have to deal with

5 the Treanor exhibits, which will take us some time because of the

6 complexity of some of the very similar documents.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I can indicate this: I will

8 finish very shortly, but in any event we have to go through the Treanor

9 exhibits so we may as well take the break now.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's a good idea, that we have a break now,

11 that you'll prepare for the unblocked copy of the document. We'll adjourn

12 until 10 minutes to 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I take it that now a B/C/S version of the

16 unblocked statement is there for the witness to look at.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Witness [sic]. In fact, I had an unblocked

18 version but it wasn't stapled.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind if you say "Your Witness," but "Your

20 Honour" is more usual. Even on the transcript it says "Your Honour," but

21 I think as a matter of fact that the interpreters saved. Yes.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Well, I'm not quite sure what brought that forward,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. Let's not discuss that.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Now -- and Your Honour, I was just about to indicate

Page 2335












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2336

1 that -- in fact, I had an unblacked copy but it wasn't stapled and I

2 thought it might be a little unwieldy for the witness. But I now have an

3 unblacked-out copy to present to the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there are just smaller portions to be read,

5 we could do it this way. If there are, however, bigger portions, then it

6 might be a good idea to tender the unblocked -- or at least the part

7 unblocked as well. But perhaps if there's another copy of the unblocked,

8 then we could perhaps put that on the ELMO so that we could read it

9 together with the witness. Copies for everybody. Okay.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I can indicate there probably won't be

11 any need to have a copy on the ELMO as such, I wouldn't have thought.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, you'll recall that just prior to the break, I

15 was asking you about your statement that you gave on the 14th and 15th of

16 March, 1995. Do you recall that?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. And you agreed that everything you'd said in that statement was

19 the truth?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that it was a detailed statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That it had taken several hours?

24 A. It was given over two or three hours per session, for two days.

25 Q. Right. So it took several hours.

Page 2337

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you agreed that you'd had a chance to read the statement

3 before signing it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you were asked if it was true and accurate?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And asked if you had anything to add.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, you have a copy, I think, before you of the unblocked-out

10 statement?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, when you were giving evidence yesterday - this

13 is at page 69 of yesterday's evidence, for the benefit of the Court - in

14 answer to a question: "Were there times when you went out on official

15 fire-fighting business during that time?" Your answer was: "Yes.

16 Whenever we were called, either from the police or from the barracks, we

17 went on fire-fighting business, usually extinguishing fire in Muslim

18 houses. But whenever we went there, they would tell us: Why have you

19 come here? Why are you extinguishing fire in these Muslim houses?

20 Although there were Serbs in the unit, there were Serb soldiers, and in 90

21 per cent of the cases, they would eventually prevent us from putting out

22 the fire. Only if the house in question was a Muslim house but in the

23 vicinity of a Serb house, then they would let us protect this other

24 house."

25 Now, Mr. Fazlovic, you have your statement before you. Show me

Page 2338

1 where in your statement it says that.

2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, to save time, I'm willing to agree

3 that's not in his statement.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I was just trying to find the transcript of

5 yesterday. I couldn't find it on my computer, so I have to --

6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. I gave the reference, Your Honour. It was the

7 bottom of page 69 --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I haven't got it in front of me, so that's my

9 problem.

10 Yes. You've heard what Mr. Hannis said. Is there -- Ms. Loukas,

11 please proceed.


13 Q. So, Mr. Fazlovic, it says nothing in your statement about that;

14 you'd agree with that, would you not?

15 A. I would like to say a few words here. If I were to give a full,

16 complete statement, it would take three days, perhaps, because every day

17 that I spent in that unit would take a day to recount. I couldn't put it

18 all in the statement. There were a lot of other ugly things that I

19 experienced.

20 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, at page 70 of the evidence you gave yesterday, you

21 indicated that: "Before the 4th of May, nobody mistreated us. But on the

22 4th of May, at around 8.00, we heard explosion coming up from the yard of

23 the firehouse."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... "Out through the window, we

Page 2339

1 saw a group consisting of 50 to 60 people who had fired from an RPG. They

2 then rushed into the firehouse."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, again, you've got your statement before you.

5 Where in your statement, if you might show me, does it state that "a group

6 of -- consisting of 50 to 60 people who had fired from an RPG rushed into

7 the firehouse"?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, again, to save time, I'm willing to

10 agree that that is not in his statement. His statement only says that on

11 the 4th of May some men came into the fire station and asked for their

12 identification cards.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In view of this, you may ask questions on the

14 basis of the absence of any such statement -- of any such detail in the

15 statement of the witness. Please proceed.


17 Q. So, Mr. Fazlovic, you'd agree, would you not, that that does not

18 appear in your statement?

19 A. I did give a larger statement than the one in front of me, and it

20 struck me during the proofing session before I came to testify that this

21 incident is missing from this one, and I did describe it in detail in my

22 conversation with the Prosecutor. When I gave this statement, I described

23 things at length, and the gentleman who took the statement wrote down only

24 the most important details. However, this particular incident, as

25 described here, is absolutely true.

Page 2340

1 Q. Well, Mr. Fazlovic, you agreed with me that the giving of this

2 particular statement took place over two days and took several hours. We

3 agreed on that earlier. Do you recall that?

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, he's answered this two or three times.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This question has been put to you several

6 times, and it has been consistently answered by the witness. So please

7 proceed.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly.

9 Q. And obviously, Mr. Fazlovic, the -- when you gave your statement

10 in 1995, it was much closer to the events than we are today.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you're saying that your memory improves with age since 1995;

13 is that what you're saying, Mr. Fazlovic?

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour.


16 MR. HANNIS: That misinterprets his testimony.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, the witness has just testified not

18 that his memory improved over the years, but not every detail that he

19 included in his statement when talking to those who put it down on paper

20 is reflected in the document. So therefore, it's a misrepresentation of

21 what the witness said. Please proceed.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, you're not saying, are you, that you weren't

24 given an opportunity, when you signed your statement, not to add anything

25 if anything was missing, are you?

Page 2341

1 A. I read my statement and I signed it. However, they reflected only

2 the details that they deemed necessary. There were many other things that

3 they may not have thought interesting enough to include.

4 Q. And who do you say is "they"?

5 A. I mean the officer who took down my statement in Tuzla. He

6 focused on certain segments of my statement that could be of use to the

7 Court.

8 Q. So you're saying that it's the officer's fault that everything is

9 not down here; is that correct?

10 A. That is not what I said. I did not say that it was his fault. He

11 knows his job, and I, on my part, gave my statement.

12 Q. So you're saying you told him these details, but he didn't record

13 them. Is that what you're saying?

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, can we have a clarification as to which

15 details? He said he did give some details pertaining to one event, but on

16 another event, he said he wasn't asked about, I believe.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas. Would you rephrase your question, in

18 view of this observation.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Okay.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, it's been conceded by the Prosecution, and I

21 think you saw that in Court just now, that there's nothing in your

22 statement about the 50 or 60 people who had fired from an RPG rushing into

23 the firehouse, and that you were told not to put out fires in Muslim

24 houses. You also saw the Prosecutor concede that. Now, do you agree that

25 they're missing from your statement, firstly?

Page 2342

1 A. I agreed that it's not in the statement. However, it did happen.

2 You can understand it as you choose.

3 Q. And, Mr. Fazlovic, are you saying that you told the officer at the

4 time that the statement was being taken, these things, but that that

5 officer chose not to put them in the statement?

6 A. Well, I don't remember exactly these details. I know that I told

7 him about a great number of things, and I don't know what he chose to

8 write down at the moment. I think I explained at great length how they

9 came to the fire station, how we heard an explosion. I just want to say

10 that only this group of people came into the fire station. I don't know

11 where the rest of them had gone.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, prior to giving -- coming into Court yesterday

13 to give evidence, you obviously spoke with people from the Prosecution?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you tell them that things were missing from your statement?

16 A. I did not tell them, but of course there are things missing. I

17 just told you a moment ago that I had spent five or six months there that

18 were terrible, and it would take me months to recount all these things

19 here.

20 Q. So when you were having the conversation with the Prosecution

21 prior to giving evidence, did you -- and you've already said you didn't

22 tell them that there were things missing, did you recall that there were

23 things missing?

24 A. Even at this moment I could tell you a lot of things that are not

25 in the statement.

Page 2343

1 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, do you consider it important that you were told, you

2 say, not to put out fires in Muslim houses? Do you think that's an

3 important thing?

4 A. Important to whom?

5 Q. Important to you giving your statement.

6 A. It is common knowledge that Muslim houses, if they had already

7 been set on fire, were not allowed to be saved. Of course, if somebody

8 set the house on fire, they would also prevent you from putting out that

9 fire.

10 Q. So in any event, that aspect was not put in your statement

11 approximately three years after the event, but was given in evidence here

12 yesterday, approximately 12 years after the event.

13 A. Yes, I did mention that, and I can mention any number of things

14 that are not in the statement and that are perhaps even more important. I

15 can mention that I found dead people in basements and pulled them out, in

16 the presence of the police. I can tell you any number of things that are

17 not here.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, you also gave evidence that - today - that

19 Muslims were collected into buses and taken to Batkovic camp. Do you

20 recall giving that evidence today?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you show me where in your statement it says that?

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, again, we will agree that that is not in

24 his statement.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed on the basis of the absence of

Page 2344












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2345

1 such an element in the statement. Please proceed.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. So you'd agree, Mr. Fazlovic, that that's not in your statement

4 but you gave evidence of it today?

5 A. It is not in the statement, but it happened in my town,

6 unfortunately.

7 Q. And, Mr. Fazlovic, in relation to this question of the mosques,

8 you've indicated that Serb houses had taped their windows. Now, show me

9 where in your statement it says that.

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that is not in the statement.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed on the basis of the absence of such

12 an element in the statement, Ms. Loukas.


14 Q. So, Mr. Fazlovic, I take it you concede that?

15 A. Concede that we should continue or what?

16 Q. Concede that that is yet another thing that you've left out of

17 your statement that was taken three years after the event and you gave

18 evidence of it today, 12 years after the event.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, whether it's "left out of the statement"

20 is a very unclear expression.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Whether he said it, whether it was not taken. On the

23 other hand, the witness said that he had no clear recollection on what

24 details he actually gave at that time, so it might be a bit of a difficult

25 exercise to find out whether he said it and it was not taken or whether he

Page 2346

1 didn't say it. Please proceed.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. So, Mr. Fazlovic, we have these four things that -- these four

4 important things, you'd agree; is that correct, that you've left out of

5 your statement, your statement?

6 MR. HANNIS: Again, Your Honour, we agree it's not in the

7 statement. We're not agreeing that he left it out.

8 MS. LOUKAS: I'm sorry. Yes. I take that point.



11 Q. Okay. Mr. Fazlovic, we have these four important things that are

12 not recorded in your statement.

13 A. Which four important things?

14 Q. The four things that the Prosecution have conceded today and

15 you've conceded today, the four things being -- if you want me to take you

16 through them, I shall. Firstly, we have the question of Batkovici and the

17 buses, number 1; number 2, we have the 50 to 60 people firing from an RPG,

18 rushing to the firehouse, that's number 2; number 3 is --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Are you looking for the tapes on the windows,

20 Ms. Loukas?

21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

22 Q. Number 3 is the tapes on the windows; and number 4 is not being

23 allowed to extinguish fires at Muslim houses.

24 A. I agree that it is not in the statement, but I am even now under

25 oath and I believe that if I state something, that that is equally my

Page 2347

1 testimony.

2 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, are you saying that you told these four things to

3 the people who took your statement back in 1995?

4 A. I don't remember any more whether I did or didn't, or whether I

5 explained these things to them using different words, in another form.

6 Q. So in the two days that took to give your detailed statement, you

7 failed to mention these four things. Yes or no.

8 MR. HANNIS: Objection. That mischaracterises his testimony.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Objection sustained. Please proceed.


11 Q. So in the two days that it took to have your detailed statement

12 taken back in 1995 for, as you've said, two to three hours per day, you

13 can't remember whether you mentioned these matters or not.

14 A. I don't remember exactly.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Because I described many things, and only when I was exchanged at

17 the police station I recounted these things, and I don't know any longer

18 what I said and when.

19 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, prior to giving evidence, you attended a

20 proofing session with the Prosecution lawyers here?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you tell them that four things were missing from your

23 statement?

24 A. I did not tell them. But regarding many of these points, many of

25 these paragraphs, I gave them a more detailed explanation as compared to

Page 2348

1 what is stated here in the document.

2 Q. So did you tell them about the things that you told us in Court

3 yesterday and today, specifically regarding these four things?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. You don't remember what you told --

6 A. Because we went through this statement, and I don't remember all

7 the details any more. I spoke at great length about all the things that

8 happened.

9 Q. And you don't remember -- well, first of all, I withdraw that.

10 What day was it when you attended the proofing session with the

11 Prosecution prior to giving evidence?

12 A. I think it was the day after my arrival here. I don't know -- I

13 think it was Saturday, last Saturday. I arrived on Friday and I had the

14 proofing session on Saturday.

15 Q. Okay. And how long did you spend in the proofing session?

16 A. Not a long time. It was over very soon. We just went through the

17 statement.

18 Q. How long was it?

19 A. [In English] Maybe an hour, hour and a half. [Interpretation]

20 Maybe an hour, an hour and a half.

21 Q. Sorry. You're saying it was maybe an hour, half an hour; is that

22 right?

23 A. I said an hour, an hour and a half, approximately, because I

24 wasn't looking at my watch, and I don't have a watch, by the way. I was

25 brought from the hotel, had the proofing session, and it was over very

Page 2349

1 soon.

2 Q. So you're saying the proofing session took about an hour and a

3 half and was over very soon; is that what you're saying?

4 MR. HANNIS: Objection. He's answered the question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, you've now changed 60 to 90 minutes

6 into 30 to 60 minutes, that it was soon over, I think the witness has --

7 MS. LOUKAS: -- Your Honour, and I appreciate that --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you please come to your point.


10 Q. Did you speak at great length?

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think that's covered by his previous

12 answers.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, we are invited not to speak at

14 the same time. I draw your attention to that. And I take that point for

15 myself as well.

16 I ask you to come to your point and not to repeat previous

17 questions that have already been answered.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Okay.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Fazlovic, you've said in the last five minutes that the

20 proofing session was over very soon, and also that you spoke at great

21 length. Do you agree with me that that's contradictory?

22 MR. HANNIS: Objection. That's argumentative, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas --

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, is it a correct understanding of the

Page 2350

1 Chamber that you want to draw our attention to the fact that the witness

2 -- that certain elements of what could have been the statement of the

3 witness as it appears on paper are not part of it and that one could

4 wonder why he didn't tell it at that time or why he didn't insist on

5 putting it on paper at that time; and at the same time, you want to draw

6 our attention to the fact that during the proofing session before this

7 testimony in this Court, that he could have asked specific attention to

8 that, he could have discussed that, he could have drawn attention to it,

9 especially after reading his statement? If that is what you'd like to

10 bring specifically to the attention of the Chamber, you've succeeded in

11 doing so. If there's anything else, you may ask the witness.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. What I did -- and I think Your

13 Honour's formulation is correct, and that -- Your Honour, what I seek to

14 achieve is to demonstrate to the Court that there's an air of

15 unreliability, therefore, in relation to the witness's statement and

16 evidence. And I don't think there's anything further I need to ask the

17 question [sic].

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I did understand that. When I used the rather

19 neutral wording of drawing the Court's attention to a certain aspect, of

20 course it was understood that the consequences had to be drawn out of it,

21 looked at from the perspective of the Defence. So that was clear to the

22 Chamber. Yes.

23 MS. LOUKAS: And I don't believe there's -- I'm happy to end the

24 cross-examination there, Your Honour. I've covered the points I need to

25 cover and perhaps laboured them a little, but I felt it was important to

Page 2351

1 draw them out for the witness's benefit and for the Court's benefit. I

2 hoped to get his agreement on various matters, and without agreement, one

3 is, unfortunately, forced to further questions.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not blaming you for it, but I just wanted

5 to indicate that, as far as we understand, that we understood your point

6 and it's become quite clear.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, is there any need to --

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have no questions on redirect. I

10 don't know if Defence counsel wants to proffer the unredacted versions of

11 statements now.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the four points not appearing in the

13 statement -- do we need the unredacted statement in order to establish

14 that they are not in? I think it's agreed between the parties that the

15 four points you mentioned; Batkovici camp, not extinguishing the fire, the

16 50 people that run in, and the taping of the windows, these were the four

17 points, that they do not appear in the statement, so therefore --

18 MS. LOUKAS: [Microphone not activated] Including the RPG, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, including. But I think that is sufficiently

21 clear even without tendering the unblocked statement into evidence.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: What we mainly can see from it is that it's not in

24 there where it appears in the transcript of the testimony of the witness.

25 MS. LOUKAS: I agree, Your Honour. As far as I'm concerned, we

Page 2352

1 have the agreement from the Prosecution that those matters do not appear

2 in the statement and I don't think there's any point in tendering a

3 document just to prove that it doesn't contain something when you have a

4 concession from the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So we do agree on that.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazlovic, Judge El Mahdi has one or more

8 questions for you.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 [Interpretation] Witness, I should like to ask you a very brief

12 question. I actually need some clarification.

13 In your statement -- I don't know whether you have it in front of

14 you, but I'm referring to paragraph number 30. You stated, and I quote

15 from your statement in English, paragraph 30, again, three last lines.

16 You say the following [In English]: "... I saw Nikolic. I asked him,

17 'Please tell Ranko to leave me alone.' Nikolic said, 'You know I dare

18 not tell Ranko anything. He does not hesitate to kill a Serb.'"

19 [Interpretation] Did you want to say that he didn't even hesitate

20 to kill a Serb? [In English]: "He does not hesitate to kill a Serb."

21 [Interpretation] Does that mean -- I mean, have you understood my

22 question, that he did not hesitate to kill even a Serb?

23 A. Yes. If such a Serb would try to protect a Muslim. That's the

24 meaning of what I declared there.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Fazlovic, I have one or more questions for

Page 2353












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2354

1 you as well.

2 You told us that you -- the formation of the special unit, you

3 remember your testimony about that, and when questioned by the Defence,

4 you said that of course you had no direct knowledge of the formation of

5 this unit because you were not part of that unit. Could you tell us from

6 whom you learned that such a formation was established, such a unit was --

7 A. This unit consisted of, among others, Ranko, Pedja, and Misa, and

8 I heard in a conversation that I had with Ranko that he was a member of

9 this unit that had been in Vukovar and elsewhere. At that time, the war

10 was not yet going on in Bosnia, but they appeared again once the war broke

11 out in Bosnia. This is what I heard.

12 I was good friends with Pedja's cousin, and I know that this Goran

13 Markovic, who later became a police commander in Brcko, told me that Pedja

14 had been the organiser. I don't know exactly what he did, but at any

15 rate, he was the one who had assembled them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Because it's clear from your statement that Ranko

17 told you about what he did, or at least that he was part of that unit, but

18 this is how you learned that the unit was then --

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- the formation of the unit then took place. Yes.

21 Then I have one more question. You said that you had to stay in

22 the building of the fire-fighters. You had to sleep there, you had to

23 stay there, you couldn't leave it, whereas your Serb colleagues could.

24 Has it ever happened that someone asked leave to go out of the building

25 for whatever reason, or did any one of your Muslim colleagues ever try to

Page 2355

1 leave that building, and what then happened, if it happened at all?

2 A. Yes. It happened from time to time that we left the building.

3 That is true. But this was our place of residence during that period of

4 time. We couldn't go home. We could go out to the shop, for instance.

5 For example, my mother-in-law lived in the vicinity of the firehouse, and

6 I was able to visit her from time to time, but very briefly, for half an

7 hour or so. My wife was no longer in the town. She was already in

8 Serbia. We could go -- we could leave the building and go very short

9 distances. That was possible, but we could not leave for good. We had to

10 sleep there. We had to be present in the building.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Listening to your answer and looking at your

12 statement that you said you were detained, do I understand well that it

13 was not a strict detention situation where you were strictly confined to

14 the premises, but that you were supposed to return after you briefly left

15 the firehouse? I tried to understand how limited you were in your

16 movements.

17 A. We did not have guards watching over us. We were there pursuant

18 to specific orders whereby we were ordered to stay there and perform our

19 work obligation. However, since it was not recommended to walk around the

20 town, because various groups moved around and took people away, we did not

21 want to expose ourselves to that situation. We did not want to stay

22 outside for very long. So whenever -- but whenever we needed to go and do

23 something, we could go out briefly, and then we would go back. So there

24 were no guards, strictly speaking; however, it was not really recommended

25 to go out, for reasons of our personal safety.

Page 2356

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that you were not quite

2 unhappy with the fact that you were ordered to stay in the firehouse,

3 because it wasn't safe outside anyhow.

4 A. Yes. That was the safest place for us at that time.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I have one other question for you. You were asked

6 whether you had any direct knowledge of people being sent to the front

7 lines, and then you said, well, you had no direct knowledge of that, apart

8 from that you, as a fire-fighter, got your orders as well in a similar

9 way. You also told us that your Serb colleagues had to follow their

10 orders. Did you observe yourself that orders given to them, of which you

11 had no direct knowledge, were followed by them, observing this through

12 what you saw them to do?

13 A. Yes. At the very beginning, our colleagues were very kind to us,

14 and they helped us. However, as time went by, they turned away from us.

15 Later, all Serbs working at the fire station received automatic weapons,

16 just in case. I don't know what purpose they were supposed to use it for.

17 We were far away from the centre. They performed their duty the same way

18 as we did; they went to assist with the fire, if this is what you have in

19 mind, what the duties of the fire unit were.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I also had in mind that you said that they were sent

21 to the front because they had not sufficient people there.

22 A. Yes, because one day they received call-up papers to go to the

23 front, to the front line. I think they stayed there for about three days.

24 I don't remember exactly how long. And only Muslims remained at the fire

25 station. After the second time when they came back, they threatened us

Page 2357

1 and they said: If they should ever find us again here at the fire

2 station, that they would slaughter us. They were probably afraid because

3 they had to go to the front, and they also probably thought that because

4 if we had not been there, they would not have been sent to the front line.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see these call-up papers, or were you told

6 that they received them?

7 A. Yes, I did. I saw when they received the call-up papers at the

8 fire station.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your answers, Mr. Fazlovic.

10 If the questions of the Bench do not raise any -- do not trigger

11 any new questions --

12 MS. LOUKAS: Just one question, Your Honour.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Defence, please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Just one question arising from your question.

16 Further cross-examination by Ms. Loukas:

17 Q. Mr. Fazlovic, in relation to paragraph 23 of your statement that

18 His Honour asked you about, that was about -- and I'll just go to it

19 briefly so -- oh, you've got the statement in front of you. "When the war

20 began in Croatia, Ranko joined the JNA. When I saw him, he said he was in

21 the army, that his salary was good, and that he did not have to do

22 anything. He said he went to Vukovar. Two or three months before the war

23 began in Brcko, a young Serb soldier, Pedja Bojanic, formed a special unit

24 which was attached to the JNA." You remember that paragraph in your

25 statement?

Page 2358

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, do you think you might be wrong about any of that,

3 Mr. Fazlovic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would you change your answer if I told you that Mr. Cesic has been

6 sentenced by this Court and --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Yes. Yes. Please proceed.


9 Q. Would you change your answer if I told you that Mr. Cesic has been

10 sentenced by this Tribunal and it was there indicated that he had no

11 military career prior to May 1992? Would you change your answer?

12 MS. LOUKAS: I'm referring to page 11 of the sentencing judgement,

13 Your Honour, the Ranko Cesic.


15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not change my answer,

16 because I know he was active. I know Ranko personally.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. No further questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

19 Then, Mr. Fazlovic, this concludes your testimony in this Court.

20 I'd like to thank you for having come a very far way, for having answered

21 all the questions by both parties and by the Bench, even now and then in

22 English, and even correcting us, once on an answer you gave in B/C/S but

23 that was translated in English. I wish you a safe trip home again.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you to Your Honour. It's been

25 a pleasure for me to assist to the Court in finding the right solution to

Page 2359

1 this issue.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Fazlovic.

3 Madam Usher, you may escort the witness out of the courtroom.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, I'd like to start with the

6 exhibits in relation to this witness, Mr. Fazlovic, first.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P71, the witness statement of

8 Mr. Fazlovic; and P71.1, the B/C/S translation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And that's the blocked version of his

10 statement as it was distributed today, and not the one we started

11 distributing yesterday. It's admitted into evidence.

12 Could we then, please, turn to the exhibits that were tendered

13 during the testimony of Mr. Treanor.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P64, expert report of Patrick

15 Treanor, in English; P64.1, B/C/S translation. P64A, 28 binders of

16 footnotes to the expert report of Patrick Treanor.

17 P65, 16 binders with 224 tabs.

18 P66, CD video of speeches of Radovan Karadzic and Nikola Koljevic.

19 P66A, transcript of P66 in B/C/S; P66A.1, English translation of P66A.

20 P67, CD of intercepts. P67A, transcripts of intercepts in B/C/S;

21 and P67A.1, English translations.

22 P68, binder of maps and graphs with 21 tabs.

23 P69, CD of video of speech by Radovan Karadzic on 15 October 1991.

24 P69A, transcript of Exhibit P69; and P69A.1, English translation.

25 P70, CD clip of Momcilo Krajisnik explaining the Bosnia and

Page 2360

1 Herzegovina ethnic map. And P70A, transcript of P70 in B/C/S; and P70A.1,

2 the English translation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: These are the Prosecution exhibits. Since I hear no

4 objections, they're admitted into evidence.

5 Madam Registrar, the Defence exhibits, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibits: D5, the Lisbon Agreement,

7 Statement of Principles for New Constitutional Arrangements for Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, in English, signed in Sarajevo March 18th, 1992.

9 D6, the Lisbon Agreement, Statement of Principles for New

10 Constitutional Arrangements for Bosnia and Herzegovina in B/C/S, signed in

11 Lisbon February 28, 1992.

12 D7, map annexed to Lisbon Agreement signed in Sarajevo in 1992.

13 D8, pages 101, 102, and 103 of book written by Alija Izetbegovic,

14 entitled "Memoirs," in B/C/S.

15 D9, English letter to Mr. Jovicic from Graham Blewitt, dated 30

16 July 2001, with B/C/S translation. And B/C/S letter in response from

17 Mr. Milovan Bjelica, dated 5 November 2001, and English translation.

18 D10A through D10O, 15 copies of instructions for the organisation

19 and operation of organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in

20 emergency conditions. That is the Variant A and B document.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the final list of the exhibits, you'll find

22 from D10A up until D10O, which appears in the transcript more or less as

23 D100, but it's D10-O, you'll find the ERN numbers specified, so in order

24 not to have any confusion at a later stage. So whenever you'd like to

25 refer to one of these documents, and if you're uncertain on which one,

Page 2361

1 whether we have the telefax copy or the number 100 copy, with stamps or

2 without stamps, then please consult the list kept by the Registry, in

3 which you'll find exactly the ERN numbers as they appear on these

4 documents, so in order to avoid whatever confusion.

5 I heard no objections, but I've got one question in respect of D7,

6 and related to D5 and D6. It's my recollection that there was some

7 confusion about sources from the Internet or whatever. Has this been

8 sorted out by the Defence that the copies D5 and D6 are actually the text

9 of the Lisbon Agreement as signed in Sarajevo, and that's D5 and D6 being

10 the Lisbon Agreement as signed in February in Lisbon already?

11 MS. LOUKAS: I can indicate in that regard, Your Honour, that my

12 case manager has not at this point finalised her comparisons with --

13 between the English and the B/C/S versions and the other versions we

14 received from the Prosecution. So that process, of course, has not at

15 this stage yet been finalised. We assume that that could be done on the

16 weekend.


18 MS. LOUKAS: And then we could finalise it then, if that would be

19 appropriate to the Tribunal. It's just we felt that it was important to

20 go through the B/C/S version to ensure that the copies were correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, then, although it's not a

22 procedure I like very much, but they are provisionally admitted into

23 evidence, on the basis of the understanding that D5 is the Lisbon

24 Agreement, as signed in March in Sarajevo; and that D6 is the Lisbon

25 Agreement as signed in February in Lisbon itself.

Page 2362

1 And my final question would be about D7. Madam Registrar just

2 read that it was a map annexed to the Lisbon Agreement. I do remember

3 that there was some confusion -- at least some uncertainty about that as

4 well, whether it was really attached to the text, and if so, to which one

5 of these texts. So, therefore, I'd suggest that if we admit D7 into

6 evidence, that we call it "map related to the Lisbon Agreement," which is

7 different from "attached to," and I also perhaps would prefer to

8 provisionally admit them into evidence on the basis of the understanding

9 that this map is actually related to the Lisbon Agreements, or the two

10 versions of the Lisbon Agreement. And the Chamber would appreciate to

11 hear from the Defence within the next two weeks whether the basis upon

12 which we provisionally admitted these documents into evidence is a solid

13 basis.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, for that indulgence.

15 Yes. We propose -- I think that is the appropriate course, the sort of

16 provisional -- to provisionally admit them at this point, and we will be

17 able to clarify that, I would hope, safely, within the next two weeks.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger. You're on your feet.

19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. One small note with respect

20 to D8, which as the Court will recall consisted of excerpts from

21 Mr. Izetbegovic's book. There's still a context related issue. As you

22 know, it's not translated into English. We have no objection to its

23 admission, but we'd like to reserve the opportunity to --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there is no translation into English, it's

25 not only for the parties to be able to find the context, but these three

Page 2363

1 pages should be accompanied by an English translation, if it's not

2 published in English, rather soon.

3 MS. LOUKAS: I can indicate in that regard, Your Honour, that

4 we've had no final response yet from the translation unit, the CLSS. But

5 we do expect to receive it today.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say no final response, that means no

7 translation, or no response whether they could translate it?

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. We were just waiting on a response

10 as to whether the book had already been translated.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, for the record, I indicate that if no

12 English translation of this book exists, that since these pages, three

13 pages, will be admitted into evidence, the translation of those pages

14 should get priority, and with reference to the transcript of this hearing,

15 you may bring this under the attention of the --

16 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Tieger.

18 If there's nothing else, we adjourn for the day -- no. I first

19 have to admit into evidence the exhibits just mentioned; D5, D6, and D7

20 provisionally admitted, as I explained before. Having said this, and if

21 there's nothing else to be discussed at this moment, we'll adjourn and

22 we'll be in this same courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned 12.01 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of April

25 2004, at 9.00 a.m.