1 Wednesday, 21 April 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone. I see, Mr. Hannis, that the Prosecution
10 team is not exactly the same as it was yesterday.
11 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. With me to my immediate left is
12 Mr. Stephen Margetts, who has been here before with Mr. Harmon, and he
13 will be leading our first witness this morning, Mr. Hasanovic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis. And on the Defence side, I
15 see that Mr. Stewart is still busy elsewhere.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. We anticipate that
17 he will probably be returning tomorrow.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then there is another issue. I am informed
19 that the parties were meeting yesterday and they would like to continue
20 their meeting today. I'm not going to ask you exactly what progress you
21 make, but of course it's the understanding of the Chamber that if we would
22 limit ourselves to just hearing the testimony of one witness today, that
23 both parties are convinced that it's worth the investment of not hearing
24 any other evidence today, but rather, to spend the time on the
25 continuation of their communication.
1 I see that this is confirmed by nodding, so therefore, the Chamber
2 agrees with the proposal that we would have a court hearing of limited
3 time today.
4 I do understand that it's one witness. Yes. I now have the list
5 in front of me. It's Mr. Hasanovic. There will be no -- there are no
6 protective measures effective.
7 Mr. Usher, would you then, please, escort the witness into the
9 Mr. Margetts, awaiting the arrival of the witness: The statement
10 of Mr. Hasanovic has not been filed yet, since it's an 89(F) witness; is
11 that correct?
12 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if it's clear that a witness will appear
14 as an 89(F) witness, I think the Chamber would like to have an opportunity
15 to then read, if that's clear, to read his statement in advance. So now,
16 at least, if the first thing you do is to tender his statement, so that we
17 can more easily follow --
18 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- his testimony.
20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Can you hear me in a language you
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, before giving evidence in this court,
1 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
2 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
3 the truth. The text of this declaration is handed out to you now by the
4 usher, and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
5 WITNESS: RESID HASANOVIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Hasanovic. Please be
11 You'll first be addressed by counsel for the Prosecution,
12 Mr. Margetts.
13 Mr. Margetts, please proceed.
14 Examined by Mr. Margetts:
15 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, please state your full name.
16 A. My name is Resid Hasanovic.
17 Q. In April 2000, did you provide a statement to the Office of the
18 Prosecutor of the ICTY in respect to events that took place in Bratunac in
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, pursuant to Rule 89(F), may the Office
22 of the Prosecutor's statement be given the next exhibit number and shown
23 to the witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, that would be --
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P72.
1 MR. MARGETTS: If the witness could be handed a B/C/S version and
2 the English version could be provided to the Court.
3 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, do you recall giving this statement to the ICTY
4 investigators on the 7th of April, 2000?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And since you've arrived in The Hague recently, have you been
7 given an opportunity to review the statement?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Are the matters set out in the statement true and correct?
10 A. Yes, they are.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, may I proceed with an oral summary of
12 the evidence set out in the statement?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Margetts.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. Hasanovic was the president of the SDA in the
15 local community of Suha in the Bratunac municipality before the war. In
16 his statement, Mr. Hasanovic describes the political and military
17 situation in Bratunac prior to the war, including the military build-up in
18 areas surrounding Bratunac, political tensions between the SDS and the
19 SDA, the killing of two Muslim men in Kravica, and an attempt made by the
20 JNA to seize military records.
21 In April 1992, the police in Bratunac were divided and the Muslims
22 and non-Serbs agreed to hand over their weapons. Mr. Hasanovic received
23 information that the leader of the Serb Crisis Staff, Miroslav Deronjic,
24 went to Pale on around the 13th of April, 1992 to meet with Radovan
25 Karadzic to discuss and organise the takeover of Bratunac.
1 On 17 April 1992, paramilitary groups, including Arkan's and
2 Seselj's men, arrived in Bratunac. After the paramilitary groups arrived,
3 regular soldiers from the Novi Sad and Uzice Corps also arrived. The
4 Serbs took control of the town. Muslim men were taken away from their
5 homes and killed. Houses were broken into and deserted property was
6 claimed by the newly formed Serb state.
7 The Serbs specified a 29 April 1992 deadline for the non-Serb
8 population to sign documents pledging loyalty to the new Serbian territory
9 of Birac. Between the 10th and 29th of April, many of the non-Serb
10 population left the area. A unit of the JNA came to the village of Suha,
11 where Mr. Hasanovic lived, and they set a deadline for the hand-over of
12 weapons. Subsequently, Mr. Hasanovic's home was searched for weapons by
13 JNA officers.
14 On the 1st of May, 1992, Srebrenica was attacked. That was the
15 adjoining municipality to Bratunac, to the south. On 9 May 1992,
16 Mr. Hasanovic observed military and paramilitary soldiers all over
17 Bratunac and was warned that he could be killed travelling in Bratunac.
18 On or about the 10th of May, 1992, Mr. Hasanovic's village of Suha
19 was attacked. He fled to the woods and the Serbs announced by megaphone
20 that if the men did not surrender, their wives and children would be
21 killed. Mr. Hasanovic surrendered and was taken toward the stadium in
22 Bratunac and then on toward the Vuk Karadzic school.
23 Whilst detained in the Vuk Karadzic school, he witnessed beatings
24 and he saw dead bodies. He himself was beaten severely and slashed with a
25 knife on the head and the arm. Mr. Hasanovic was then taken to the
1 Bratunac stadium and gathered with about 5.000 people who had also been
2 expelled from their homes. The women were forced to turn over their
3 valuables and then they and the children were placed on buses and
4 transferred out of the municipality. The men were separated from the
5 women, and at this time Mr. Hasanovic saw a man being beaten and stabbed.
6 Mr. Hasanovic, together with about 500 other men, returned to the
7 Vuk Karadzic school, where he remained for two days in inhumane
8 conditions. He observed many beatings and killings. Little, if any, food
9 was provided to these men, and people that were brought in during the
10 course of the men's detainment reported that homes were being destroyed in
11 Bratunac and people were being burned alive in their homes.
12 On or around the 13th of May, 1992, Mr. Hasanovic and other
13 prisoners were transported to Pale, where they were detained in a sports
14 hall. There were isolated beatings and they received very little food.
15 On or around the 16th of May, Mr. Hasanovic, together with the
16 other men detained in the sports hall in Pale, was exchanged. As a result
17 of his maltreatment, apart from the wounds received referred to earlier,
18 he suffered a ruptured kidney and, after the exchange, he remained
19 hospitalised for 28 days.
20 The evidence that Mr. Hasanovic will provide is primarily relevant
21 to paragraphs 19, 24, and 27 of the indictment in this proceeding, and
22 each of the counts 1 to 8.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, may I now proceed with the questioning
25 of the witness?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Just one small
3 comment. Obviously, I have the statement, but it would be useful if I had
4 been provided with the summary prior to coming in to court this morning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that would be a good idea, if it's
6 prepared anyhow, then that -- Madam Registrar, could I just ask you
7 whether it would be possible to make a printout of the part of the
8 transcript which contains the summary, so that Ms. Loukas has a copy.
9 Ms. Loukas, the registrar will now produce a copy of the part of
10 the transcript which contains the summary of the statement.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
13 Or do you have a copy with you, Mr. Margetts?
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if it's helpful, in the most part,
15 with some small alteration, the summary that I have just read into the
16 record is in fact the 65 ter summary. The amended 65 ter was served on
17 the Defence on the 9th of February.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, if you could print out that
19 part of the transcript, then we have a literal --
20 MS. LOUKAS: I would just indicate, Your Honour, that this is a
21 witness who I was provided for -- with additional proofing notes, and in
22 those circumstances, I would have appreciated a copy of the summary.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least you'll have it in a couple of minutes.
24 Well, we can't do anything else at this very moment.
25 Mr. Margetts, please proceed in your examination of the witness.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 MR. MARGETTS:
3 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, you are from the Suha area in Bratunac; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I would like to show the witness a map
7 which is listed as the second document on the exhibit list. May this map
8 be given an exhibit number and presented to the witness.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P73.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 MR. MARGETTS:
12 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, could you look at the map which is on the projector
13 next to you. Was this map presented to you at the offices of the
14 Prosecutor on the 18th of April, 2004?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you pre-marked this map and signed it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, could you point to the marking which is marked
19 number 1.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What does this cross designate?
22 A. That marking approximately denotes the place where my house used
23 to be.
24 Q. Could you point to the marking which is marked number 2.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What does that mark designate?
2 A. It designates the Vuk Karadzic school, where we were held captive
3 for three days.
4 Q. Is the cross marked on a particular building?
5 A. Yes. It's precisely on the school.
6 Q. Is that the building where you were detained?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you point to the mark number 3.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. What does that mark designate?
11 A. It designates the stadium where civilians from Bratunac, Suha, and
12 other areas, were held, most of them.
13 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, we'll discuss the Vuk Karadzic school and the
14 stadium later in your evidence, but I'd now like to turn to a couple of
15 other matters.
16 At paragraph 37 of your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor,
17 you referred to a deadline being set for Muslims to sign loyalty oaths.
18 How were the Muslims informed that they were to report and sign those
19 loyalty oaths?
20 A. It was mostly on an individual basis. People would be invited and
21 then sent to populated areas to tell people to go to Serbian municipal
22 buildings, town halls, to sign a document against which their property and
23 all their other rights would be guaranteed. But if these people failed to
24 appear, then there would be no guarantees. In my case, a neighbour came
25 to see me, a neighbour who worked for the electrical company, and this
1 neighbour informed me that I had to do so.
2 Q. When you arrived at the municipal hall, what did you observe?
3 A. I arrived with a group of my neighbours. I was very scared and
4 anxious when I came there to the town hall. In that room, there was a
5 desk and two people behind that desk, or perhaps more of them. They gave
6 us these papers to sign, and of course we did so.
7 Q. What did the loyalty oath say?
8 A. Well, I cannot give you the exact wording, but the main thing that
9 I remember was that it said we were loyal citizens of the Bratunac
10 municipalities, that we are signing this document, and in exchange for
11 that signature, they are going to guarantee the safety of our property and
12 our freedom.
13 Q. After you signed this loyalty oath, was there a subsequent
14 gathering in your village of Suha?
15 A. Yes. After the signing of the loyalty oath, perhaps a day or two
16 later, we received new information over megaphones driven around by
17 military vehicles, and an announcement was made inviting all men to
18 assemble at a certain point in town. And of course, we had to comply. We
19 came to that place, which was close to the town church, and there we were
20 addressed by a military officer. I think he had the rank of captain. He
21 had come accompanied by a couple of soldiers. He held a short speech in
22 front of us, saying that they knew that we had weapons. We had to hand
23 over these weapons. It was up to us, but it would be better for us to
24 surrender the weapons, because only in that case would they be able to
25 guarantee our freedom and safety. They said somebody would come to pick
1 up the weapons. And that meeting was over at that.
2 We went back home and then things continued on that course.
3 Q. Was the captain accompanied by other soldiers; and if so, how
5 A. Yes. There was a number of soldiers in those two vehicles. Four
6 or five soldiers, perhaps. And in addition to that, there were other
7 soldiers in Bratunac who had come, either on foot or on various vehicles.
8 In any case, there were people milling around during the meeting.
9 Q. Was a deadline given to you to hand in the weapons?
10 A. Yes. We were given a deadline. I believe that deadline was the
11 very next day, or maybe even the day when we had been assembled.
12 Q. On the 9th of May, 1992, you took your daughter to a clinic in
13 Bratunac. On your return trip back home from the clinic, what did you
15 A. Yes. I observed a very difficult situation, an abnormal
16 situation. A lot of soldiers, commotion in the streets, and there was
17 something heavy hanging in the air. People were scared. You could see
18 nobody but soldiers on the streets. They were all wearing military
20 Q. On the 10th of May, 1992, at what time did you wake up?
21 A. On the 10th of May -- that is, on the 9th of May, I had a very
22 difficult night. There was a lot of shooting in the direction of
23 Srebrenica from heavy arms, mostly from the direction of Bratunac. We
24 were all scared. I was very worried. Just before the dawn, I managed to
25 get some sleep; however, around 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning, I was woken
1 up by heavy shooting from rifles. It looked as if it was happening right
2 in front of my window. I jumped to my feet, and I saw that it was
3 happening a bit further. I went out of the house. On the left-hand side,
4 the village of Mihaljevici, above the Drina on the border with Serbia, had
5 already been ablaze.
6 Q. What did you do?
7 A. It was very difficult to decide what to do. I said to my wife
8 that I had to lie low. I saw fire and shots from surrounding mountains.
9 I didn't know where to go. I went and hid in some bushes, in some nearby
11 Q. From where you were positioned in these bushes, what could you
13 A. I could see my house, the road leading to the centre of the town,
14 and after a while, if you will allow me to continue, I saw a column of
15 women, children, and elderly people, and I could see people approaching
16 the nearby houses and driving people from those houses and directing them
17 towards the centre of the town.
18 Q. Did you hear any announcements being made?
19 A. Yes. There was an announcement to the people, ordering them not
20 to lock their houses, to go to Bratunac. And it was also said that the
21 soldiers who were driving people out of the houses wanted to protect us.
22 People then wondered who the protection was supposed to be from. And the
23 answer was that some people came to Bratunac, Arkan's people, Seselj's
24 people, and they wanted to protect us. And the only place where we could
25 be protected was if we were all gathered in the stadium. And for a while
1 we believed that.
2 Q. When you were hiding, was there an announcement made directed to
3 the men who were hiding?
4 A. There was terror. Children were crying. Women were crying.
5 There were elderly people who were shouting because they were told that if
6 the people who went into hiding didn't come out of the hiding, that their
7 families would not be guaranteed safety, that these people would be
8 killed. People, elderly people, parents, would go and search the bushes
9 to find their sons. We decided then to stop hiding because we thought
10 that we should be with our families.
11 Q. And did you surrender and join your family?
12 A. I joined my family. I found my wife and my children, and together
13 with them, I started walking towards the town.
14 Q. Can you describe the soldiers that were walking with the people?
15 A. The soldiers mostly wore the uniforms of the Yugoslav army. They
16 were mostly our neighbours from Bratunac, some of whom we recognised. I
17 recognised two soldiers who were walking near me.
18 Q. Can you name those men?
19 A. Yes. One of them was Bozo Petkovic, and the other was Novak
21 Q. In which direction did you walk?
22 A. We walked on the road leading to the centre of town, on the road
23 leading towards the stadium.
24 Q. As you were walking, did you recognise any Serbs in military
25 uniform who you knew?
1 A. Yes. As soon as we came to the main road, in front of a shop
2 whose owner was a Bosniak, I saw a group of young men sitting, wearing all
3 sorts of military uniforms or paramilitary uniforms. A colleague of mine
4 recognised me. He worked in the mine. I was his foreman. He approached
5 me. He wore a black uniform that belonged to the mine. He wore black
6 leather gloves, and he had two pistols. I was terrified. And then he
7 told me: There you go. The time has come for me to decide what you are
8 going to do.
9 Q. What was his name, and did he have any insignia on his uniform?
10 A. Yes. His name was Novak Stjepanovic, also known as Krke, and he
11 wore Arkan's insignia, and he also had a very, very long beard.
12 Q. When you approached the stadium, did you see Stjepanovic?
13 A. As we were already close to this stadium, to my left, a car
14 approached. I recognised the car. Two soldiers came out of the car. One
15 of them was Krke. He stopped by the car. The soldiers approached me,
16 asked me to identify myself. They told me that I had to go to the SUP,
17 where I would give a statement. I was scared. My wife was scared. I
18 tried to put up some resistance; however, they grabbed me by the arms and
19 they took me on the road leading towards the police station.
20 Q. What did your son do?
21 A. My son was 9 at the time. He was pulling me back. He started
22 crying: Please don't take my dad away. They disregarded his cries. They
23 just pushed him away and threw him on the ground.
24 Q. You said you recognised the car that Stjepanovic was in. Who did
25 that car belong to?
1 A. The car belonged to another neighbour of mine who worked at the
2 petrol station. His name was Safet Karin [as interpreted]. And the
3 vehicle was a Kadett, a German car.
4 Q. Later that day, did you see Safet Karin?
5 A. Yes. As I entered the school building, at the very entrance, I
6 recognised the dead body of Safet Karic, who was laying on his stomach in
7 the toilet of the school.
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt for one second. Your testimony,
9 you told us about a person Safet Karin, and then, two lines later, it is
10 Safet Karic. Is that the same person? And could you tell us what exactly
11 his name is.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that you are mistaken
13 here. I referred -- I talked about Novak Stjepanovic as Krke, and the
14 other person is Safet Karic, a Bosniak, who was killed in Bratunac, a
15 person who worked at the petrol station. His name was Safet Karic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I listened carefully to you, and I looked at
17 the transcript, and the first two times when you mentioned the name of
18 Safet Karic, it sounded like Karin. It has been transcribed as Karin. So
19 you say the person to whom the car belonged is named Safet Karic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. MARGETTS:
23 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, for the purposes of addressing the fate of Safet
24 Karic, I have moved forward. I'll now take you back to your meeting with
25 Stjepanovic. After you met Stjepanovic and you were taken away from your
1 family, where were you taken?
2 A. I was taken to the Vuk Karadzic school, to a room next to the
3 sports hall. They gave me a piece of paper and a pencil. They told me
4 what the charges against me were, and those were that I was supposed to
5 have killed some Serbs. I was the one who distributed arms amongst
6 members of my party. They knew that, and I was supposed to write it down.
7 I knew that this was all a lie. I refused to write it down. They were
8 enraged and they told me: Very well, then. If you don't want to write it
9 down, then you'll start singing as soon as you see how we kill your
11 Q. Can I take you back to when you arrived at the school. Can you
12 describe the soldiers that were with Stjepanovic and took you to the
14 A. They were mostly soldiers wearing military uniforms, with weapons,
15 and I recognised most of them as citizens of Bratunac. There were some
16 people I didn't recognise, and I'm sure that they belonged to the corps
17 that came from Serbia.
18 Q. When you arrived at the Vuk Karadzic school, how many soldiers did
19 you observe, and did you recognise any of them?
20 A. There were a lot of soldiers. According to my estimate, there
21 were about 30 soldiers around the school that they were guarding. I
22 recognised one soldier. His name was Dusan. He was also a neighbour of
24 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Bube Ristanovic?
25 A. Yes. Bube Ristanovic, I recognised him at the entrance to the
1 school. He was one of the guards. He held an automatic rifle. And
2 during my three-day stay at the school, I would see him very often at the
3 door, and sometimes he would also enter the sports hall.
4 Q. Was he a local man?
5 A. Yes. Bube Ristanovic was a citizen of Bratunac. Actually, he
6 lived in Seliste hamlet. He was one of the athletes of the Guber sports
7 team from Bratunac.
8 Q. You have previously described the fate of Safet Karic. Can you
9 tell me what you saw when you entered the Vuk Karadzic school.
10 A. When I entered the Vuk Karadzic school, I saw to my left in the
11 sports hall people who were lined by the wall. Some held three fingers in
12 the air. Some were on the ground. Some were being beaten with wooden
13 bats and metal rods. On the right-hand side, there were some other people
14 sitting on benches.
15 Q. Immediately when you entered the school, did you see any bodies?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Defence counsel, please.
18 MS. LOUKAS: [Previous translation continues]... it isn't
19 appropriate to lead on something like that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat it because I couldn't hear
21 the first part of your objection.
22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, it really isn't appropriate to lead on
23 something like "Did you see any bodies?" I mean, the fact is the
24 statement is before Your Honours, it's been admitted. The witness in fact
25 has the statement in front of him. If the Prosecution are going to ask
1 questions like "Did you see any bodies?" which do suggest the answer, it's
2 a little silly, Your Honour, procedurally.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, if the statement
4 is in front of the witness, then if this is an accepted procedure, then
5 leading has a different meaning from --
6 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, but one wonders what the point
7 is when the Bench has the statement, the witness has the statement in
8 front of them. If there's something sought to be elicited from the
9 witness, it's a little circuitous to have the statement actually in front
10 of the witness. I don't think the statement should actually be in front
11 of the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I do not see him reading. He
13 needed it in order to identify the statement as his, the one he gave.
14 Could you please try to keep in mind that leading to the extent
15 not necessary should be avoided.
16 Yes, please proceed.
17 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. I will withdraw that question.
18 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, I want to take you through the chronology of events
19 when you arrived at Vuk Karadzic school, so if you could cast your mind
20 back to standing at the entrance to the school, and then take me through
21 which rooms you passed through and what you observed.
22 A. As I entered the school, I was taken to a smallish room. They
23 gave me a piece of paper and pencil and they ordered me to write what they
24 wanted me to write. I refused to do that. They were angry. Then they
25 said: Okay. We'll take you to the sports hall to witness how we are
1 killing your people, and then you will start singing.
2 They pushed me into the hall. They threw me on the ground. Then
3 they made me watch how they were beating and killing people in the sports
4 hall. Obviously, I was watching for a while, but then, with all that
5 beating, I lost consciousness. When I came to, Branko Jovanovic
6 approached me and told me that he would simply slaughter me, that he would
7 cut my throat. He threatened me. He wanted me to confess things. I was
8 confused. I said I didn't know anything about any of those things that he
9 wanted me to write about. He took a knife and started beating me with the
10 handle of the knife.
11 At that moment, Krke appeared at the door, Novak, Stjepanovic,
12 that is, the soldier that I had already described, and he said: Don't
13 touch him. He approached me. He pushed Branko away and told me: They
14 want to kill you, and I cannot allow that, because of the good
15 relationship that we had in the mine.
16 He took me out of the sports hall. I was bleeding from the wounds
17 on my head. He took me to another room. He gave me a cigarette. I
18 refused to take his cigarette. Then he gave me first aid. He dressed my
19 wounds to stop the bleeding. He took me outside, inquired about my
20 family, and then he told me: I can take you to the stadium to join your
21 wife and your children, but I can't take you anywhere further.
22 He did that. He brought me to the stadium gate and told me to
23 enter the stadium. And he told me also: Serbs are going to live here.
24 You have to go to Tuzla. In Tuzla, at the Tuzla stadium, 3.000 Serbs are
25 incarcerated. We have to save them.
1 I entered the stadium, and as I was walking across the stadium, I
2 saw a couple of soldiers with loudspeakers. At least one of them had a
3 megaphone. They were calling names, taking people from the stadium. I
4 also saw people --
5 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, can I stop you there. We will return to the events
6 at the stadium. In the course of the answer to the last question, you
7 mentioned that you were bleeding from wounds. How many wounds did you
9 A. I had two wounds.
10 Q. Where were those wounds?
11 A. One was on the left side of my forehead, and the other one was on
12 my right arm.
13 Q. How did you sustain those wounds?
14 A. I sustained those wounds from a soldier's army knife.
15 Q. Who was holding the knife when you sustained the wounds?
16 A. It was Branko Jovanovic who hurt me personally.
17 Q. Who was Branko Jovanovic?
18 A. Branko Jovanovic was a citizen of Bratunac municipality, and at
19 that moment, he wore a military uniform.
20 Q. You also said earlier that you passed out. When you were in the
21 sports hall, what happened to you, and why did you pass out?
22 A. I probably passed out due to the beating and the fear that I
23 suffered at that moment. A fellow citizen of mine who was sitting next to
24 me told me: You were unconscious. You were vomiting profusely, and I was
25 really afraid that you might die.
1 Q. In the sports hall, how many local Muslim men were being beaten?
2 A. In the sports hall, there were between 30 and 50 people who were
3 being beaten constantly.
4 Q. Were these people standing or lying, or in what position were
6 A. On the left-hand side, some people were standing next to the wall,
7 and they were constantly beaten with different objects. Some of the
8 people had already been on the floor after the beatings that they had
9 sustained. On the right-hand side, there were other people sitting on
10 benches who were at that moment spared the beating.
11 Q. How many soldiers were in the sports hall with these 30 to 50
13 A. Three soldiers were torturing and killing people, whereas the
14 others were either guarding the door or they were standing in the
15 corridors or they were in front of the entrance to the school building.
16 Q. Were these the same soldiers you've described earlier, that is,
17 local soldiers?
18 A. The ones at the entrance and in front of the entrance were
19 soldiers from the town of Bratunac and the neighbouring republic, and in
20 the school itself, there were soldiers who identified themselves as
21 Arkan's men. They told us that they were paid to do what they were doing.
22 And they also told us that they would make more money if they killed more
24 Q. We will return to the description of those men. In the answer to
25 the last question, you said, or the translation states that you referred
1 to the town of Bratunac and the neighbouring republic. What do you mean
2 by the "neighbouring republic"?
3 A. Yes. Yugoslavia, which consisted of a number of republics. After
4 the multi-party elections, there was another referendum on the
5 independence of the states. The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina held a
6 referendum, became an independent state, but we still continued referring
7 to it as the neighbouring republic.
8 Q. Now I'll take you to the stadium, where you have told me
9 Stjepanovic took you. How many people did you observe in the stadium when
10 you arrived?
11 A. As I arrived at the stadium, there were a lot of people there;
12 women, children, elderly. There were between four and five thousand
13 people. Children were screaming. Women were crying. People in military
14 uniforms were walking about, calling names. Any of them could call any
15 name they wanted. They were looking for some individuals who were not
16 even there. They collected all the possessions that the people had on
17 them. They collected money, jewellery, they snatched earrings from
18 children's ears. They threatened children that they would cut off their
19 ears if they didn't give them their earrings, and then mothers would, in a
20 haste, snatch those earrings from their children's ears and hand them
22 Q. How many soldiers were present at the stadium, and did you
23 recognise any of the soldiers?
24 A. At the stadium, because it is a very big stadium, I don't know
25 exactly how many people there were, but the soldiers were going from one
1 group of people to another, and I recognised many people by appearance,
2 but I couldn't tell their names; at least, not for all of them.
3 Q. When you entered the stadium, where did you go?
4 A. After we spent quite a long time at that stadium, we were informed
5 again through a megaphone that we were supposed to move. We started
6 moving towards the gate, which had been opened. I happened to be close to
7 the gate, and I moved along with my wife and children. We heard the buses
8 and trucks that had been parked close to the stadium revving up and we
9 were told that we were going to Tuzla.
10 Q. When you reached the gate, what occurred?
11 A. As I came to the gate, I saw a large number of soldiers on both
12 sides of the gate. They separated young people, able-bodied men, on one
13 side, and sent women and children to the buses. We, the able-bodied men,
14 were directed to go in a double line towards the school building, the
15 building of the Vuk Karadzic school. We were guarded by soldiers who
16 flanked us. Krke told me that I was supposed to accompany my wife and
17 children, so I protested, but they told me that there was no way I could
18 go with my family, and they made me go to the school building.
19 Q. When you say "Krke told you that you were supposed to accompany
20 your wife and children," are you referring to the conversation you had
21 with Krke when he delivered you to the stadium?
22 A. Yes. That's what I mean. A conversation we had before we came to
23 the gate in front of the school building. We exchanged a few words and,
24 among other things, he told me that he could not save me; all he could do
25 is prevent them from killing me and try to make sure that I go to Tuzla.
1 He asked me how many children I had. I was carrying one small child and
2 had another child, the child of a cousin of mine, next to me. And he told
3 me then: When you come up to the bus, tell them that I said you should go
4 with your wife and children.
5 Q. Did you have a conversation with Krke after you had met up with
6 your family in the stadium?
7 A. Yes. The next day, around noon, Krke came to that school, saw me,
8 and said: Oh, you are not gone. He came up to me and asked if I had been
9 beaten. I said: Not recently. He said: Okay. Come here and sit on
10 this bench.
11 And then he summoned some men who were killing people. He told
12 them: Bane Dragan, don't beat this man. He used to work in the mine with
13 me. He's a good man.
14 Q. I will take you to that period of time when you were detained in
15 the Vuk Karadzic school in a moment. Just taking you back to when the
16 women and children and the men were separated at the stadium: Did you
17 observe any other incidents at that time?
18 A. Yes. At the stadium, I observed one incident when a man was
19 pulled by the soldiers who were trying to force him to come along with
20 them, and he was putting up a lot of resistance. I saw one of the
21 soldiers get his knife at one point, stab the man, who fell on the ground.
22 Q. What happened to your wife and children after the women and
23 children were separated from the men?
24 A. My wife and children, and the women who were residents of my
25 neighbourhood in Suha, could not fit all into the buses that were
1 provided, so they were told to go back home and spend the night there.
2 They were told not to try to leave, but instead, to come the next morning
3 to the same place, to board new buses that would take them to Tuzla. They
4 said: If you comply, we guarantee the lives of your husbands. And of
5 course, the women complied. My wife came the next morning to the stadium,
6 where she was put, together with other women and children, on a bus, and
7 they were taken to Tuzla.
8 Q. I understand from your answers to the earlier questions that when
9 you left the stadium, you were taken to the Vuk Karadzic school.
10 A. Yes. We were taken again to the Vuk Karadzic school. This time
11 we were a very large group of able-bodied men. However, there were some
12 elderly men among us as well, aged over 60. They started cramming us into
13 the gym.
14 Q. How many men were taken to the school?
15 A. Well, my rough estimate for that day would be 500 to 600 men taken
16 to the school. However, every hour they would capture more people and
17 bring them to the school.
18 Q. In the period of time that you were there, how many other men were
19 captured and brought to the school?
20 A. During the time that I spent there, during those three days, I
21 believe a hundred more people were brought to the gym. Some were killed
22 soon afterwards, some survived, but at any rate, new people kept coming
23 all the time.
24 Q. When you arrived at the school after being brought from the
25 stadium, what happened when this large group of men arrived at the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 entrance to the sports hall?
2 A. At one point, they couldn't fit all the people in, because the gym
3 was too small, and then they threatened, and indeed later did so, that
4 they would finish us off. A number of people were taken back outside, and
5 we who stayed in that corridor, in that small hallway, were frightened to
6 death when we heard shots outdoors.
7 Q. Approximately how many men were taken outside before you heard
8 those shots?
9 A. I would say 10 or 20.
10 Q. When this large group of men entered the sports hall, were they
11 all standing in the hall or were they sitting, or in what posture were
13 A. At first, during the first few hours, we were standing.
14 Q. After the first few hours, what occurred?
15 A. After the first few hours, soldiers came into the gym, three
16 soldiers. They took school benches, set them around the gym to create an
17 open space in the middle, and then they started calling out names, asking
18 if there was anyone who had worked in the SUP, anyone who had worked in
19 schools, asking if there were any people present from Bratunac or from
20 Potocari. And in the meantime, pieces of paper started going from hand to
21 hand, passing to the guards, indicating names of people, and these people
22 were later singled out, either for beatings and killing or just for
24 After the beatings, some of the people crawled under the benches,
25 and in several cases, such people survived.
1 Q. Who provided the pieces of paper to the soldiers that were beating
2 the people?
3 A. These pieces of paper were passed by the guards who were standing
4 near the door. They were wearing military uniforms. I just want to make
5 you understand that anybody who wanted could go to the door. Some people
6 came to the door of the gym in disguise; they didn't want us to recognise
7 them. So they passed these pieces of paper with our names on it and we
8 never really found out who they were, who provided this information to
9 the --
10 Q. How were those people dressed?
11 A. Do you mean the people who did the beating inside the gym?
12 Q. No. The people that were passing the pieces of paper to the
14 A. I said earlier that these pieces of paper were passed through the
15 guards, and the people who wrote them were dressed -- I couldn't tell you
16 how they were dressed. All I know is that the guards were in military
17 uniform. But the person who did the beating would get the piece of paper
18 directly from the guard or would simply bring the piece of paper himself,
19 coming from the door.
20 Q. During the three days that you were in the sports hall, did you
21 observe any people present around the sports hall in civilian clothes?
22 A. Yes. In those three days that I spent in the gym, all of us
23 Bosniaks who were detained were dressed in civilian clothes. However, at
24 the door, and perhaps two metres inside the gym, Serb people dressed in
25 civilian clothes would come and ask for some sort of information. Among
1 them was a man from the SDS party, Miroslav Deronjic, who once came to the
2 gym. I recognised him.
3 Q. Were any other people from the local authorities present at the
5 A. I can't tell you exactly, because I didn't know everyone on the
6 local authorities of Serb ethnicity. But from speaking to the people who
7 did know them, I found out that almost all of them came at one point to
8 visit. They would just come to the door, look in, and go back.
9 Q. You said that the men who were detained were dressed in civilian
10 clothes. Were they all civilians?
11 A. Yes. All of those people were indeed civilians, and they were all
12 rounded up in their own homes. A few of them were perhaps captured while
13 trying to escape, or they were intercepted somewhere but mostly they were
14 rounded up in their homes and in their basements. They simply went from
15 house to house, looking for people to detain, and they didn't have a
16 difficult job of it because people were hiding in groups.
17 Q. What ethnicity were the people who were detained?
18 A. The people detained in the Vuk Karadzic school were, for the most
19 part, Muslims.
20 Q. Those who were not Muslims, what was their ethnicity?
21 A. I don't know that there was anyone of a different ethnicity.
22 Perhaps there were some gypsies, but even they called themselves Muslims.
23 Q. You referred to three men who set up desks and an area in the
24 sports hall. Can you describe those three men?
25 A. Yes, I can. One of the most prominent people introduced himself
1 to us as Bane, also known as Zoka. He wore some sort of overalls. He was
2 blond, tall, aged 30 or so. There was another man who gave us the name of
3 Dragan. He was from Milici. He was strong, corpulent, wearing a military
4 uniform. The third man, who did the torturing, called himself Zoka. He
5 had a Macedonian accent, and therefore people called him
6 "Macedonian." He was very much inclined to trouble-making. He was
7 restless. He paced the room and he would go in and out of the gym all the
9 Q. Did these men explain why they were there in the hall, doing what
10 they were doing?
11 A. Yes. They simply told us -- well, I can't say they told us they
12 were sorry, but they said that they were given the job to kill people,
13 that's what they were brought there for, and the more people they kill,
14 the more money they will earn.
15 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt for one moment.
16 You described three men. One of them, you said, that he
17 introduced himself as Bane, also known as Zoka. And then when you
18 described the third man, you said: The third man, who did the torturing,
19 called himself Zoka. Do I understand well that there were two men who
20 were called Zoka out of the three?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you their real names
22 with any degree of certainty. Those were the names they gave to us. The
23 third man, as I told you, left the room all the time. He spoke with a
24 Macedonian accent and he gave us his name as Zoka The Macedonian. But for
25 the most part, everybody called him Macedonian. That's how the guards
1 called him as well. He would come in and out of the gym, and he was
2 dressed in civilian clothes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But I do understand you well that two men out of the
4 three were called Zoka?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
6 MR. MARGETTS:
7 Q. Over the next three days, what did these men do?
8 A. In those three days, those three men beat up and killed people in
9 the gym. They used all sorts of tools: Wooden handles of various tools,
10 iron pipes, sometimes iron legs of a bed, I believe, and even the butts of
12 Q. How many men did you see them beat up or kill?
13 A. What I can say with certainty is that they killed at least 50
14 people as I looked on; 50 that I saw.
15 Q. Whilst they were beating the people, did they say anything?
16 A. Yes. They made all sorts of comments while they beat people.
17 They issued threats. For instance, while they were beating one policeman,
18 they told him: Oh, you are the one who shot at a Serb vehicle, puncturing
19 the tyres. Then there was an old man who was the father of a shoemaker in
20 Bratunac. I don't know his name. All I know is that he was very old and
21 he had a bad back. When they were beating him, they said: Your son,
22 Ismet, shot at our troops as they were going through the Hranca village
23 towards Glogova.
24 Q. Did they make any comments about politics in the course of the
25 three days?
1 A. Yes. There were very political comments, such: You wanted a
2 state. Here's your state for you. Or, for instance: Where is now your
3 Alija to save you?
4 On the third day, they brought a man from Potocari and they asked:
5 Where is Naser, your liberator?
6 On one occasion, I heard a sharp scream coming from a locker room
7 where a man was being beaten, and they said: We just captured your
8 liberator, Naser. Listen to him wailing in the locker room. He's now
9 confessing as we speak.
10 Q. Did any senior military personnel enter the hall?
11 A. Yes, on the second day. There was a very difficult moment for us.
12 Those people who were beating us, holding those pipes and sticks, they
13 were beating us, forced us to huddle in just one third of the room, and
14 they kept beating us. And as they were beating us, we were forced to
15 crawl on top of each other, almost up to the ceiling. At that point, a
16 person in a military uniform, obviously of some high rank, came into the
17 gym and said: What are you doing, men? Get off them.
18 So he pulled them all outdoors. In fact, he told the guards to
19 desist and we were able to occupy again the rest of the gym. As we got
20 off each other, we noticed that perhaps seven or eight men had died under
21 the stampede. Among the bodies was the body of a young man who was a
22 locksmith in my mine, Husnija Hadzibulic. Another of the men who got
23 killed by the stampede used to be a waiter, Omer; and I recognised another
24 of the dead whose name was Hadzimuratovic. We dragged them all outside.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, may I ask you how much time you'd still
1 need because we are close to the moment when we usually have a break but
2 I've got no idea how much time we'd still need.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Probably most of the next session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, this surprises me to the
5 extent that it was indicated that, in order to have an opportunity to
6 meet, that we would limit ourselves to one witness. But if the Defence
7 needs some time for cross-examination as well, as I take it, then is it
8 the absence of Mr. Harmon and Mr. Stewart that is at stake, or is it that
9 we would shorten a bit our session of this morning? Because if you'd need
10 another one hour and a half, then we might not even finish with this
11 witness today, where I was asked not to start perhaps the next witness,
12 which --
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think Mr. Harmon intends to lead the
14 next witness that will be appearing after this witness, and we knew there
15 was a possibility that this witness might take up the full day. But in
16 the case that we finish sooner, we wanted to stop then and not require
17 Mr. Harmon to come in and present the witness today.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now better understand.
19 Ms. Loukas.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. I agree with the comments from Mr. Hannis.
21 That's basically the situation. I would just make one other comment in
22 relation to my request for the summary earlier today. I'd indicate that
23 perhaps it was not so much a sin of omission on Mr. Margetts' part; it's
24 just that I'm used to Mr. Hannis giving me the summary every morning of
25 the witness. So it's perhaps that I'm just being indulged by Mr. Hannis.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you how much time was scheduled for
2 Mr. Hasanovic.
3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I believe it was four and a half hours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. No. It's just not on the list, so I have to
5 -- that's all understood. We'll then, if this would be a suitable moment,
6 we'll adjourn until five minutes to 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for not having properly understood the
10 suggestion made by the parties at the beginning of this session. It's now
11 clear to me.
12 Mr. Margetts, please proceed.
13 MS. LOUKAS: Before that happens, actually, Your Honour, I think,
14 depending on how long the rest of the examination-in-chief takes, and in
15 view of the fact that we did want to have a further discussion today, it
16 may be appropriate for me to commence my cross-examination tomorrow rather
17 than after the end of the evidence in chief. I just want to forecast
18 that, in terms of the time left available.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could look at that during the next
20 break. Perhaps that's the most appropriate moment to consider where we
22 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Also looking at the witness statement, I wonder
24 whether you'd need the full session, Mr. Margetts. See what you can do.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'll do my best to expedite the
2 remainder of the evidence. There is one matter, though, and that is that
3 the witness statement did not fully explore the transport and events in
4 Pale, and we provided some additional notes in respect of that to the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
7 MR. MARGETTS:
8 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, prior to the short break, you had identified
9 various individuals who had suffocated in the Vuk Karadzic school. What
10 happened to their bodies?
11 A. Their bodies were taken outside, and as far as I know, they were
12 taken to a hangar that used to be used for practical work by children who
13 went to that school.
14 Q. After the commander left the building, did the three soldiers
16 A. Yes. Maybe two hours later, these three soldiers returned to the
17 sports hall and continued killing and beating people.
18 Q. During the period that those three soldiers were absent from the
19 hall and the commander was present, did you receive any food or water?
20 A. Yes. The commander ordered the guards to bring some food and
21 water to the people, which was done. They brought us some sandwiches and
22 some fruit juices. But this was sufficient for only half of the people
23 there, so we struggled over that food and water.
24 Q. Apart from that food and water, during the three days you were
25 detained in the Vuk Karadzic school, did you receive any other sustenance?
1 A. No. We didn't receive any food. On the following day, we got
2 some more sandwiches, again too little, and then, on the third day, we
3 were put on lorries and taken to Pale.
4 Q. I'm going to mention the names of various people, and if you could
5 tell me whether or not you recognise those names and whether you know of
6 anything that happened to those people. The first name is Zaim
8 A. Zaim Huseinovic was an engineer who worked in the Srebrenica mine,
9 where I worked as well. He was a very young man. He hid in Suha. He was
10 captured together with the rest of us. He was brought to the sports
11 hall. On one occasion they asked whether there was anybody from Potocari.
12 Zaim stepped out. He is a native of Potocari, just like Naser Oric. The
13 people who had beaten him before grabbed him, beat him again. He fell on
14 the floor. Krke then appeared on the doorway and shouted to Bane: Bane,
15 don't beat this man. He is an engineer that I know. He is a very quiet
16 and peaceful man. He doesn't know anything about anything.
17 And he snatched him away from Bane and set him beside me. When
18 Krke left, either Bane or Dragan grabbed Zaim, hit him several times.
19 They spilled his brains out. He died and then we were ordered to take his
20 dead body out of the sports hall.
21 Q. I'll take you to the events when you removed his body from the
22 sports hall, but you mentioned that he was from Potocari. Was there any
23 reason that they were targeting people from Srebrenica and Potocari?
24 A. Yes. There is a good reason: Before our arrest, there was an
25 incident in Potocari, during which a group of Arkan's men were killed in
1 Potocari. And another reason is that before our arrest, Goran Zekic was
2 killed. He was one of the deputies of the Srebrenica municipality. He
3 was killed in an operation aimed at getting to Srebrenica, or something
4 like that.
5 Q. During the period that you were detained, did you see the father
6 of Goran Zekic?
7 A. Yes. I saw Goran Zekic's father. He came to the sports hall one
8 day. He came in civilian clothes. On the following day, he came in a
9 military winter uniform. He asked us if we knew who had killed his son.
10 He asked if there was anybody from Potocari. He said that he was sorry,
11 but 300 people had to pay for the death of his son. And as far as I'm
12 concerned, this is exactly what happened.
13 Q. When you say they had to pay, what do you mean by that?
14 A. They had to be killed, 300 people's lives had to be taken. They
15 had to pay with their lives.
16 Q. We were discussing the death of Zaim Huseinovic, and you said that
17 the body was taken from the hangar. Can you please describe that.
18 Apologies. A correction: You said it was taken from the sports hall.
19 Can you describe please that.
20 A. The ones who killed him decided that somebody was dead and that
21 their body had to be taken out. They would then assign some detainees to
22 take the body away. The four men would usually be assigned for that job.
23 They would put the body onto a piece of cloth used for tents and then the
24 body would be taken out of the sports hall by these four prisoners.
25 Q. Were you assigned to take any bodies out?
1 A. Yes. On one occasion, I was put in that situation. I was close
2 to the door. I was sitting on a bench. One of the soldiers looked at me
3 and said: Carry the body out. I approached the body. I don't know whose
4 body it was, but I was the one who carried it to the hangar. As we
5 entered the hangar, to our big surprise, we saw a man sitting amongst the
6 bodies. He was delirious and he was covered with blood. We recognised
7 him. He was strong and tall. He didn't have any hair on his head. His
8 forehead was bloody. We told him to wipe his forehead, to put a clean
9 T-shirt on, and we promised we would try to get him back to the sports
10 hall. And this happened. The next group that were carrying the body,
11 there were only three men in the group, and they took the body to the
12 hangar, and then this man returned to the sports hall as the fourth
13 carrier of the body. His name was Salko. He had been shot from a pistol.
14 The bullet just scratched his forehead. He was probably unconscious when
15 they took him to the hangar, believing that he was dead. However, he
16 wasn't dead. He came to, and that's how he survived.
17 Q. When you went to the hangar and saw Salko, how many other bodies
18 did you see?
19 A. There was a roomful of bodies. I don't know how many exactly
20 there were, but I would say that there were maybe 50 of them. It's very
21 difficult to say. You have to understand that I was afraid. It was a
22 long time ago. In any case, there was a heap of bodies. There was a
23 large pile of bodies.
24 Q. Do you know of a man named Zaimo [phoen] Hodzic?
25 A. His name was actually Dzemo Hodzic, not Zaimo Hodzic. I'd like to
1 correct you on that.
2 Q. Apologies. I am referring to Dzemo Hodzic. What happened to
3 Dzemo Hodzic?
4 A. Dzemo Hodzic was a reserve captain and he belonged to the defence
5 of Bratunac. He worked in the military department during the peacetime.
6 Dzemo Hodzic was afraid when the SDS came to power, and that's why he hid
7 in the suburbs. He was captured in Suha. Suha was one of the safest
8 places because of the population composition. Most of the people were
9 Bosniaks. He was captured. He was brought to the sports hall. He had
10 already been beaten. And they beat him there. He was dead. He was taken
11 out. And a lorry was brought in to transport the bodies. Dzemo Hodzic
12 was loaded onto the lorry. The window was open and we could hear his
13 voice when he started shouting: Brethren, run away. You're going to be
14 killed, all of you. Those of the men who had beaten him were -- got
15 angry. They ordered the people to return him to the sports hall and they
16 finished him off with wooden bats and metal rods. So finally he died, and
17 he was taken out this time once for good.
18 Q. The next name I'll mention is that of the Muslim priest, Mustafa
19 Mujkanovic. What happened to him?
20 A. Yes. He was the main Muslim priest in Bratunac, Mustafa
21 Mujkanovic. He was a relative of mine. I knew him well. We even held
22 some conversations before the occupation. We had close contacts. At one
23 moment, when a guard at the door shouted: Oh, there is a hodza among
24 them, then Bane said: Give us the hodza. They singled hodza out, they
25 started beating him, without any previous explanations. He fell on the
1 ground. They were drunk, and they had crates of beer. They forced him to
2 drink beer, which he refused. Then they lifted him up, leaned him against
3 the wall, forced him to lift three fingers. Mustafa didn't say a word.
4 He just lifted two fingers. One of them noticed that. They were angry.
5 They continued beating him. And Bane took out a knife. He hit him for
6 the last time. Mustafa fell on the ground. As they were taking him out,
7 he was still giving some signs of life; however, one of those murderers
8 approached his body, took out a pistol, and shot a bullet in his head, and
9 that's how they killed him.
10 Q. The next name I'll mention is that of Ramo Karic. What happened
11 to him?
12 A. Ramo Karic was my closest neighbour, whose house was five metres
13 away from mine. His nickname was Krljo. He worked in the Vihor company.
14 He was a lorry driver. A paper came through the door, asking for Ramo,
15 the driver from Vihor. He stood up and said there were several of us
16 called Ramo from Vihor. I'm Ramo called Krljo. And they said: Yes, we
17 want you. They started beating him. Bane took out a pistol from his
18 pocket. He shot a bullet into his elbow. Ramo screamed, bent over. They
19 continued beating him and they killed him there on the spot.
20 Q. Was your cousin Ahmet Salkic detained? What happened?
21 A. Yes. Ahmet Salkic was detained, and I believe that I personally
22 took his body out. He was killed very soon. He was physically weak and
23 it took just one blow to kill him. He had blond hair, long hair, and a
24 green jacket. And they said: There is an Ustasha. And one of them hit
25 him in the forehead, close to the eye. He fell on the ground and he
1 sustained another blow, which was probably lethal, and then we were
2 ordered to carry his body out.
3 Q. Next name, Hajrudin Comic. What happened to him?
4 A. Hajrudin Comic. I knew him. He was prone to drinking. They gave
5 him a beer to drink, and he drank it so fast that Bane said: Look at him
6 drinking. He ordered him to kneel and he fired a shot either into his
7 head or into his neck, and he died of that wound.
8 Q. Next name is that of Mensur Husic. What happened to him?
9 A. Mensur Husic is also from Suha, another neighbour of mine. He was
10 blond and that's why we called him Zuco. He was brought to the sports
11 hall the third day, just before our departure for Pale. They brought him
12 and they found a place amongst us who were his neighbour. He told us that
13 he had been captured on the way to the police station. He was brought to
14 the sports hall. He told us that we were supposed to go to Pale. At one
15 point he stood up and said he wanted to find his suitcase, where
16 supposedly there were clothes for his wife and for his baby, who had
17 already been transported to Tuzla. When he returned, he was frightened
18 and very pale, and he started stuttering. At the same moment, his name
19 was called out. They said: Zuco, the tractor driver, come out. He stood
20 up. I believe that he knew what was to be his lot. He started screaming.
21 And they started beating him already at the doorstep. At one point, I
22 heard him screaming: Don't kill me. He was taken out. I heard a burst
23 of fire, and another scream of his, which was rather loud, but after that,
24 I did not hear him screaming any more.
25 Q. Did you know a policeman whose first name was Mustafa? If so,
1 what happened to him?
2 A. Yes. I knew the policeman Mustafa. He was a single young man
3 from Suha. They took him out, they beat him, they told him that he was
4 the man who shot at a Serb lorry when the Serb lorry wouldn't stop. They
5 beat him. He was lucky to survive, because while Bane and the others who
6 were -- had been beating him were taking a rest, we pulled him amongst
7 ourselves. We hid him among a bench. He was beaten all over, but he
8 managed to survive and he was finally exchanged.
9 Q. In total, how many men did you see beaten to death or shot to
11 A. I personally witnessed at least 50 people being killed by
12 different objects and in various manners.
13 Q. Apart from those beatings and killings you witnessed, were other
14 men called out from the hall?
15 A. Yes. Other people's names were called out. The majority of
16 people responded to those call-outs. On one occasion they called my name
17 out, and my relative then said he was taken away from the school yard
18 yesterday, and from then on, I decided not to respond to the call-outs,
19 and that's how I managed to remain among the people in the sports hall.
20 Q. Of the men who initially were taken from the stadium to the sports
21 hall, and the men that arrived at the sports hall during your detention
22 there, how many do you estimate were killed in that three-day period?
23 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I'd object to the form of that
24 question as to whether the Prosecutor is asking about actual killings
25 witnessed or killings he might have heard about. I think it should be
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, first of all, the witness had already
3 testified that he personally saw 50 people being killed over the next
4 three days, as far as I understand. You find that in page 30, line 10 and
5 following. So that is a repetitious question.
6 He also testified that at a certain moment he approximately saw in
7 the room some 50 bodies of people killed. He explained how bodies were
8 loaded on trucks. So whether a further estimate where he said that I
9 think four to five hundred people were in the school and frequently taken
10 out, I don't know whether that really assists the Chamber in order to have
11 more guesses in that respect. Please proceed.
12 MR. MARGETTS:
13 Q. When new arrivals came to the sports hall, what did they tell the
14 detainees in the sports hall?
15 A. All the new arrivals told us that there was a hell outside, that
16 there were bodies lying all around, that people are being captured, that
17 neighbouring villages were ablaze, that the situation was really
18 difficult. And that pretty much sums it up.
19 Q. Were you taken from the Vuk Karadzic school at some point; and if
20 so, can you describe that?
21 A. On the first day when I was brought in, Krke took me to the
22 stadium, but on that same day I returned with a big group of people back
23 to the school. I was not taken out of the school. Some people were taken
24 from the school in some way. Some of them returned. I don't know what
25 happened to them and what was their lot.
1 Q. After the period of three days when you were detained in the Vuk
2 Karadzic school, where did you go?
3 A. After three days, late in the evening, we heard lorries with soft
4 canvas cover. They stopped in front of the sports hall and we were told
5 that we would be exchanged. We rushed to the lorries. We couldn't wait
6 to be exchanged. We were all loaded onto the lorries, and when almost
7 half of us were already on the lorries, somebody came and asked for some
8 people. Some of them were already on the lorries so some people had to
9 get off. Some 10 or 20 people remained in the sports hall, and they did
10 not join us on our way to Pale.
11 Q. You said some people had to get off. Why did they have to get
13 A. I really don't know why. Their names were called. I don't know
14 who called their names. A list appeared and we were told that the people
15 on the list were not to be allowed to go to Pale to be exchanged.
16 Q. How many lorries were there?
17 A. There were four lorries.
18 Q. Approximately how many men were on each lorry?
19 A. Approximately a hundred men were on each lorry.
20 Q. Did you recognise any of the drivers of the lorries?
21 A. Yes. I recognised one driver, who worked in the Vihor company.
22 And he also used to work with a relative of mine.
23 Q. What was his name?
24 A. His name was Rocko.
25 Q. At what time were you loaded onto these lorries?
1 A. We were loaded onto the lorries in the very late hours of the
2 evening or the early hours of the night.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I would like to show the witness the
4 exhibit that was previously marked as Prosecution Exhibit P61. May this
5 exhibit be presented to the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. MARGETTS:
8 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, could you please turn to the page which is numbered
9 13 in the top right-hand corner and marked for identification 0083-5787.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, if you could guide those who are
11 reading English to the relevant page as well.
12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if you could turn to page 11 of the
13 English translation, which is marked at the top with the last four digits
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
16 MR. MARGETTS:
17 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, does your name appear on that page?
18 A. Yes, it does. It appears on page number 13, Resid Hasanovic, born
19 in Bratunac, residing in Suha.
20 Q. And could you read out what is written beside your name.
21 A. My father's name, the year when I was born, where I was born, and
22 the village where I resided, or the neighbourhood, the name of the
24 Q. And your father's name was Hasan, you were born in 1958, and you
25 resided in Suha; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you look through that document and could you tell me whether
3 you recognise other names listed in this document.
4 A. Yes. I know a lot of people from this document. They are mainly
5 people from the areas of Suha, Mihaljevici, and Ravne. There were also a
6 number of people who were simply hiding in that area. The others I don't
8 Q. Does this appear to you to contain the names of many of the men
9 who were detained in the Vuk Karadzic school and transported on the
10 evening of 13 May 1992?
11 A. I believe that this list contains the largest majority of even 100
12 per cent of the people who were transported to Pale and later exchanged in
14 Q. During the course of the journey from the Vuk Karadzic school, did
15 the trucks stop at any point?
16 A. Yes, they did. They stopped in the morning, around dawn. I think
17 that intersection was called Semizovac. They pulled up the tarpaulins
18 covering the lorries. Some people who were huddled inside recognised the
19 road. They had recognised it even earlier, looking through the little
20 holes in the tarpaulin. We noticed around the lorries policemen dressed
21 in uniforms of Republika Srpska. They were rather kind and gave us water
22 to drink.
23 Q. Apart from the lorries, did you observe any other vehicles
24 travelling with the lorries?
25 A. Yes. Just before we set out, we were warned that it is not a good
1 idea to try to run, that we were being taken to be exchanged, that rescue
2 is near, and we believed them. They also said that we were being escorted
3 by very strong military forces, including a vehicle with a heavy weapon on
4 top. We noticed, among other vehicles, a military jeep, another vehicle
5 called Campagnola, and other vehicles.
6 Q. After the break in Semizovac, where were you taken?
7 A. When we left again from Semizovac, we reached Pale very soon. We
8 recognised the place. As soon as they pulled back the tarpaulin again, we
9 saw a desk in front of the lorry, with a paper and pencils on it. There
10 were some civilians around the desk and a couple of policemen dressed in
11 uniform, the same kind of uniform that we had seen at the intersection
12 earlier. They told us to get off the lorry one by one. They took down
13 our full names and they told us to pull out the shoelaces from our shoes,
14 to take off our trouser belts. And after taking down our names, they
15 directed us to a big sports hall that was in Pale.
16 At one point when I was ordered to jump off the truck, a very
17 young man kicked me. Another very strong man who was standing next to
18 him, dressed in civilian clothes, told him: Leave this man alone. Why
19 are you kicking him? Don't you see he's a civilian? I was indeed dressed
20 in jeans, wearing sports shoes. And this man said: I heard all these
21 people had been rounded up in their homes. I heard that this was a good
22 man. His reputation reached me.
23 Q. How many civilians were gathered around the trucks when you got
24 out of the trucks?
25 A. There were a lot of civilians. In my estimate, there could have
1 been a hundred or more along the road leading towards the sports hall.
2 Q. You described two policemen and you said they were dressed in the
3 same uniform as the uniform at the intersection. Was that the uniform of
4 the Serbian, or Republika Srpska police?
5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, again, I'd object to leading in relation
6 to this particular issue. The evidence really should come from the
7 witness as opposed to from Mr. Margetts' mouth.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, could you rephrase your question in
9 such a way that the objection is met. We usually -- to give you a
10 standard: Leading in chief is not under all circumstances not permitted,
11 but as soon as the other party opposes against it, then you're invited to
12 see whether you can do without. Yes, please proceed.
13 MR. MARGETTS:
14 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, when you described the uniform of the police at the
15 Semizovac stopping point, you said it was the uniform of the Republika
16 Srpska police. Is that correct?
17 A. Correct. It was the regular uniform that was earlier worn by the
18 mixed, joint police of Bosnia-Herzegovina, except that Serbian emblems
19 were added on to it, either a small flag or the emblem of the Serbian
20 Krajina or, later, the Serbian Republic.
21 Q. When describing the uniform of the police that were at the tables
22 in Pale, you said it was the same uniform as the uniform of the police at
23 Semizovac. Can you again describe the uniform.
24 A. Yes. That is the uniform worn, as I said already, by all
25 policemen earlier, before the conflict, only it had different emblems on
1 it, emblems of Republika Srpska or the Serbian Krajina.
2 Q. After your names were taken down at the table, did you enter the
3 sports hall?
4 A. Yes, we did. We entered the sports hall one by one. The people
5 who were already inside the hall told us to sit down, spread our legs, and
6 sit in each other's laps, practically, facing the door. As soon as I
7 entered, I noticed, on the left-hand side, on the bleachers, some people.
8 I was later told by other people that those were Bosniaks coming from the
9 vicinity of Sarajevo. On the right-hand side there was a man tied to the
10 radiator. He was a Croat. They told us to keep away from him, that he
11 was an Ustasha and that he had to answer for it. They came for him
12 several times and took him out to be interrogated and to be beaten.
13 Q. Who was guarding the sports hall?
14 A. The guards were mainly men in police uniform. At one point, they
15 had some sort of disagreement with the army troops at the door. We
16 learned that the soldiers had wanted to come inside the sports hall and
17 beat people, and the police didn't let them. They then put up some bars
18 on the window and they installed an iron door, using a welder. These
19 soldiers threatened that unless we are exchanged, we were going to be
20 killed. But the police didn't let them touch us. They didn't let them
21 even come inside.
22 Q. Can you describe the uniform the police were wearing.
23 A. Yes. The uniform was blue, with the emblem of the Serbian flag on
24 the shoulder.
25 Q. Was anybody beaten in the sports hall?
1 A. Yes, there were beatings. It usually happened when somebody asked
2 to go to the toilet. Then one of the guards would either kick them or hit
3 them with whatever they were holding in their hands. There was an
4 incident when a man in uniform came in, saying that he was the police
5 commander at Pale. He tried to elicit some information from some people.
6 I don't know exactly what he wanted. There was a barrel that was brought
7 for us, a barrel full of water for us to drink. The commander, when he
8 didn't get the information he wanted, took this barrel and started hitting
9 people with it on the head. He later left, and I never saw him again.
10 Q. You mentioned a barrel of water. Were you given water to drink
11 and something to eat?
12 A. Yes. At Pale we were given water to drink in that barrel, and
13 also through a hose. We were given plastic cups and jugs, and we had
14 enough water to drink as much as we wanted. We also got food once a day.
15 Q. Can you describe the food.
16 A. It was usually bread, sandwiches, with a little bologna.
17 Q. Was the food sufficient?
18 A. No, it was not sufficient. Far from it. But there was enough
20 Q. How long were you detained at the sports hall?
21 A. We stayed there for three days, and precisely on the 16th, in the
22 morning, policemen came again and told us we were going to be exchanged.
23 They brought a length of rope with them and tied us in groups of ten.
24 This was done by people in police uniform. Each group of ten, once tied
25 up, would climb onto a truck, and the end person in this tied-up group of
1 ten would be tied to the truck, so that we couldn't move.
2 Q. Were you told who you were going to be exchanged with?
3 A. We could only assume. They had told us the day before that unless
4 the people on their side who had been captured during the attack in
5 Sarajevo - and one of the soldiers said specifically that unless his own
6 brother was released - we would not be exchanged. And we could only pray
7 for those people, the soldiers of the other side, not to be killed, so
8 that we can be exchanged.
9 Q. You said the people captured during the attack in Sarajevo. Were
10 they referring to a specific attack?
11 MS. LOUKAS: Again, Your Honour, obviously the question has to be
12 a little bit more specific in terms of "to your knowledge."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think in general terms the witness is only
14 asked whether he knows something and whether it's to his knowledge. So
15 whenever a question is asked to you, Mr. Hasanovic, please always tell us
16 what is the source of your knowledge.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
18 MR. MARGETTS:
19 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, did any of the police or military personnel give
20 you detailed information as to who it was you were going to be exchanged
22 A. We did not have very reliable information. All we heard was from
23 people who came as far as the doorstep, or we would hear things from the
24 people among the police who were tying us up. We had a little more
25 freedom there. One of the policemen was even kind to us. He loosened the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 rope on our hands and he told us: Don't worry. You're going to be
2 exchanged today for Serbian soldiers.
3 Q. When you left the sports hall, what did you observe?
4 A. When we left the sports hall, we saw a number of civilians,
5 residents, gathered around the lorries. It was a clearing, surrounded by
6 residential buildings. It was a bright, sunny day. At one point, a tin
7 can came flying through the air and landed on the head of the person next
8 to me, who was a friend of mine, by the way. We tried to stop the
9 bleeding. And occasionally, we would hear other objects hitting the roof
10 of the lorry. These objects were thrown from the surrounding balconies.
11 Q. Who was throwing these objects?
12 A. Yes. At one point, I noticed that it was mainly women standing on
13 the balconies, and maybe a couple of elderly men standing up there. But
14 from among the people who were standing around the lorries, I couldn't see
15 who was throwing what.
16 Q. Did these women or men say anything?
17 A. Yes. They were shouting: Kill the Ustashas. Why are you taking
18 them to be exchanged? That was the drift of their comments.
19 Q. Can you describe the buildings you observed in some more detail?
20 A. Yes. As far as I could tell, those were apartment buildings, four
21 storeys or higher, and they had balconies. They were close to the sports
22 hall. If you were going towards the sports hall, they were on the
23 right-hand side. I have the picture clearly in my head but it's very
24 difficult to describe. I remember there was this entrance to the sports
25 hall, with some sort of awning held by iron pillars, and some glazing
2 Q. Were the trucks escorted; and if so, can you describe the
4 A. Yes. The lorries were escorted. When we set off from Pale, we
5 were escorted by the soldiers of Republika Srpska, dressed in military
6 uniforms. They were armed and travelled on combat vehicles. They too had
7 warned us not to try to escape, not to try to jump off the lorries,
8 because this was our best chance to survive. It was a very hot day. The
9 road was very dusty. When we reached Ilijas, the lorries stopped. And
10 when we stopped, there were more incidents, because, again, the local
11 residents had gathered around, shouting occasionally: Take them to the
12 basement and kill them.
13 I heard one officer in one of the lorries up front say to his
14 soldiers: The front line is very close. Switch the gear on your rifles
15 to single shots and save your ammunition. We need it for the enemy.
16 And then we went on. We came to some sort of roadblock. And then
17 we entered the no man's land between two defence lines. There the lorries
18 stopped briefly. Some man appeared in camouflage or olive-green/grey
19 uniform. I remember there was one man who had the insignia of the
20 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina on his sleeve. He said:
21 People, let's keep this quiet and orderly, without incidents. They told
22 us to get off the lorries slowly.
23 They gave us a couple of knives and told us to cut the ropes on
24 our hands. They told us to file out of the lorries and proceed slowly in
25 the direction they showed us. A hundred or perhaps two hundred metres on,
1 we saw a large number of vehicles, lorries and passenger cars, that took
2 us to Visoko. In Visoko, they put us up again in a sports hall. But
3 before that, we travelled almost through the entire town of Visoko.
4 Everything was ready there; medical assistance, food, et cetera, and they
5 admitted us there.
6 Q. Were you hospitalised in Zenica; and if so, why were you
8 A. Yes. I was hospitalised in Zenica. In Visoko, I received some
9 medical assistance from doctors. I was in a very bad condition. I
10 received some pain-killing injection. But they could not treat my back.
11 They were not able to, because they lacked the equipment and the
12 resources. They asked me if I agreed to be transported to Zenica, because
13 we had to pass through positions held by the Serbs, and I said: I'm
14 willing to agree to anything, because I can't stand the pain any longer.
15 And then they said: We have to look for a driver, then.
16 One driver was found, and he told me: When we are stopped at a
17 checkpoint by the Serb police, don't breathe a word. They are sure to
18 check the car. You just show your certificate issued to you by the Red
20 And that's what I did. I showed my papers given to me by the Red
21 Cross, and when I reached Zenica, the doctors noted that I had suffered
22 heavy blows to my right kidney. The kidney was dislocated. And I had to
23 spend a long time in that hospital, in bed, before I was released
25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness the video
1 exhibit and two still images that are captured from the video. The video
2 is approximately three and a half minutes long, and after that viewing,
3 that will be the end of the witness's testimony.
4 Could the video be given an exhibit number?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P74.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the stills, do they get separate numbers,
8 I take it, but I saw on the list 12 stills, and I just heard you say three
9 stills. Is that correct?
10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, just to expedite this testimony, we've
11 decided to just show two stills.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Then could, please, the video P74 be
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, that's the end of the sequence that we
16 wish to show the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Margetts, I noticed that at
18 the beginning of the video was a bad picture of what we saw later on as
19 well. Would it not have been better to just limit it to the parts which
20 are visible? I mean, I wouldn't mind that much, because it's clear
21 enough, but it saves a lot of confusion and thinking about whether we have
22 a technical mistake or what is it.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. It was intended that --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not spend too much time on it, but just perhaps
1 for future videos being played.
2 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in addition to the video, could we
3 have the B/C/S and English transcripts as part of that exhibit number.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, the numbers would be --
5 THE REGISTRAR: The transcripts will be P74A and P74A.1 for the
6 English translation.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MR. MARGETTS:
9 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, do you recognise a number of the people in the
11 A. Yes. I've recognised several people in the video, almost all of
12 them, because they were detained with me and exchanged in Pale. I know
13 two or three people personally. For example, one of them was a neighbour
14 of mine, Mirsad Karic was his name. He was heavily beaten. At one
15 moment, they noticed that he was wearing very good boots on his feet. He
16 was a hunter and had very good boots on. And they told him: Look at you.
17 You were getting ready to go fighting, weren't you?
18 Q. Were these men detained in the Vuk Karadzic school with you?
19 A. Yes. They were detained, and I saw them a lot of times.
20 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness a still
21 of the image that's depicted at counter reference 55 of the video. If
22 that could be given an exhibit number.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P75.
25 MR. MARGETTS:
1 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, do you recognise the man depicted in this image?
2 A. Yes, I do. His name is Salkic. I know him personally. I know
3 where he lived. It was in a hamlet near Bratunac. The name of the
4 village is Hranca, and the village had another name. I knew him
5 personally. I saw him in the sports hall. I saw him in Visoko. Later
6 on, I got in touch with his brother, who lives in Germany. A month or two
7 months ago I heard from his brother that he had died in Tuzla.
8 Q. What happened to him in the sports hall?
9 A. I did not witness him being beaten, but judging by the wounds on
10 his face, I believe that he had been beaten with metal rods, with fists,
11 with rifle butts or pistols. In any case, I know that he was beaten in
12 the sports hall in Bratunac.
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, may I show the witness the image
14 depicted at counter reference 242 of the video.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Margetts.
16 MR. MARGETTS: Could that image be given an exhibit number.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be attached to the other one, so it's
18 covered by the previous number, and that then consists of two images.
19 MR. MARGETTS:
20 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, looking at that second image, which is taken from
21 the video at the reference 242, do you recognise that image and can you
22 comment on that image?
23 A. I recognise this picture. I have already seen it on several
24 occasions. I know the guy who is depicted. I can't remember his name,
25 though. I believe that his family name is Karahasanovic. I remember very
1 well when Bane Topalovic took a military knife and carved a cross on his
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, that is the end of the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.
6 I misunderstood this morning the request of both parties not to
7 start with the next witness, but now there's an additional request, to
8 start the cross-examination of this witness only by tomorrow. That's how
9 I understood. Or --
10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- we would have approximately another -- under usual
12 circumstances, approximately one hour, one and a quarter of an hour to go.
13 It's not entirely clear to me at this moment why we should not use that at
14 this moment. What urgent activity should be performed in the next one
15 hour and a half? But if you could explain to us, we could consider it.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly, Your Honour. I can indicate that, in
17 view of the fact that we finished a little later than we anticipated
18 yesterday, we weren't able to finalise our discussions yesterday, and we
19 felt that it would be better if we continued our discussions today, and
20 that's why the request was made. In the circumstances, Your Honour, if we
21 finish now, we still finish even later than we finished yesterday, so it
22 would be to undertake these discussions that it seems silly --
23 JUDGE ORIE: If I may interrupt you. I understood after -- first
24 I thought that the parties thought that we could stop after the first
25 witness tomorrow -- this morning, and then not to continue with another
1 witness. When I was a bit surprised that this witness would take the
2 whole morning, it was explained to me that the main reason was that we
3 would not start the next witness because it would be Mr. Harmon who would
4 take the next witness, and therefore not start with the next one. But not
5 starting with the next one and not finishing this one are two different
6 issues. It's clear to me why, at least, the Prosecution would rather not
7 start with the next one. It's still not entirely clear why we couldn't
8 try to get as far as we can with this witness. Because I understood - but
9 perhaps that's also a misunderstanding - that Mr. Harmon was either
10 preparing in or engaged in a meeting with Defence counsel. But is that --
11 that's not --
12 MR. HANNIS: Not presently, Your Honour. When I spoke earlier
13 this morning, I think he was engaged in preparing the witness that's going
14 to appear tomorrow.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I better understand. Now what you'd like
16 to do is resume as soon as possible the meeting with the Prosecution, and
17 therefore, stop at this moment and only resume the -- start
18 cross-examining the witness tomorrow.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour. For two reasons: Firstly,
20 taking into account the break, I wouldn't finish my cross-examination in
21 any event this afternoon; and secondly, of course, if -- the importance of
22 this process to ensuring an overall efficiency in terms of time used in
23 the trial I think is important as well.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then another question to you, Mr. Hannis:
25 Would this have any effect on witnesses present at this moment in The
1 Hague that would -- that would have to stay over the weekend, which they
2 would otherwise not have to do?
3 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, as I recall, we're on break next
4 week, so they wouldn't have to stay over the weekend, but I think --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, but would they have to be sent back?
6 MR. HANNIS: Yes. And I believe one of the witnesses that is
7 currently scheduled for this week is going to have to be sent back because
8 we're not going to finish everyone that we anticipated finishing this
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have we considered to try to find some extra
11 time somewhere so in order to see whether we could to prevent this from
13 MR. HANNIS: Yes. I don't know what Defence counsel's schedule
14 is, but I believe on our side we could meet late into the day or late into
15 the evening to have these discussions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because I'm a bit concerned about having to ask
17 witnesses to travel back to the -- I don't know where they come from, but
18 -- and then to return. Would this hour make -- I mean, if we would try to
19 find some additional time. I don't know whether we can find it in Court,
20 just to finish the witnesses that are still on the list. Would this hour
21 or hour and a half be of any importance to achieve the aim of finishing
22 examining witnesses in total before sending them back?
23 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I think it might be. (redacted)
24 (redacted), I believe, and after him we have a
25 witness from Bosanski Petrovac, who was a 92 bis, here for cross.
1 JUDGE ORIE: These are the two remaining witnesses?
2 MR. HANNIS: Yes. In addition, there is another witness from
3 Petrovac, but I don't think we'll get to him.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you'd say that if we would not use our time
5 at this moment, we might even be at risk to send two witnesses --
6 MR. HANNIS: That's my concern. I don't want to not be able to
7 finish the witness from Petrovac, who is here as a 92 bis for cross, but
8 he was somewhat of a reluctant witness when he testified in another case,
9 and I'm concerned about how long it might take.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 MR. HANNIS: Excuse me, Your Honour.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. HANNIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I think I inadvertently
14 mentioned the last name of a witness for whom we have protective measures.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have a redaction, Madam Registrar.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that aspect, I think I can
17 indicate we're perfectly happy to sit an additional session this week,
18 like we did at the end of the session when we were doing Treanor, we
19 agreed to sit additional sessions on a Friday afternoon.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The programme of the Judges might not allow
21 that in every respect and that's, of course, also one of our concerns.
22 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: First we have to find out whether that's possible at
24 all, whether there are teams there, translators, et cetera. It takes
25 quite a lot of technical ...
1 We'll have a break now for 20 minutes, and during the break the
2 parties will receive information on whether we'll continue for another
3 hour, until a quarter to 2.00, or whether we'll stop for today.
4 Mr. Hasanovic, you may have noticed that we have some practical
5 problems, and presumably your examination by Defence counsel,
6 cross-examination, will not finish today, and therefore, we ask ourselves
7 whether we should start today or whether we should start tomorrow.
8 Unfortunately, I can't tell you right away. We'll discuss the matter over
9 the next 15 minutes and then you'll be informed about whether you're
10 expected to reappear in 20 minutes or whether you're expected to reappear
11 tomorrow morning at 9.00. So I hope that this uncertainty will not
12 disturb you too much.
13 We'll adjourn either until 20 minutes to 1.00 or until tomorrow
14 morning, 9.00, and the parties will be informed about which of the two it
15 will be.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has looked at the remaining programme for
19 this week and comes to the following estimate, approximately: The
20 cross-examination of this witness, starting from the point of view that
21 it's usually 60 per cent, would take another two hours. Then the next
22 witness is scheduled for chief one hour and 15 minutes. Well, let's just
23 assume that it would take one hour for cross. That would bring us to two
24 and one quarter of an hour. Let's make it a bit broader, two and a half
25 hours. The witness then to come would take in chief three hours, on the
1 -- yes.
2 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. That would be (redacted)?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since I'm not fully aware of -- yes.
4 MR. HANNIS: When we anticipated there was a possibility that we
5 not -- might not be able to do both those remaining two witnesses, we
6 proposed ourselves to reverse the order because it was more --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
8 MR. HANNIS: It was a better process if --
9 JUDGE ORIE: You'd then have the last 92 bis witness. I don't
10 know if there's any protective measures in place.
11 MR. HANNIS: No, none for him.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that would mean -- the witness you just
13 mentioned, (redacted)?
14 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That would be scheduled for three hours in chief.
16 Well, let's say on the average two hours then for cross, makes five hours.
17 Then we would have the last witness, who is -- who appears only for cross,
18 who is a 92 bis witness, and it's my estimate that that would take
19 approximately one and a half hours, apart from the introduction. If that
20 would be true, then we would have, altogether, 11 hours scheduled still to
21 go for this week. If we would use one hour today - and we have to start
22 quickly - then we would have two full days, I would say, which is
23 effectively a little bit over four hours. That would bring us somewhere
24 to eight and a half hours. What we then would miss is one and a half hour
25 to finish the whole of the programme.
1 I asked the registrar to see whether on Thursday, in the
2 afternoon, we could find some time after 3.30, that is, there's a Status
3 Conference starting at 3.00, that would be finished by 3.30. If we could
4 find one and a half hour, if we are very efficient, I think we could
5 prevent any of these three witnesses to be sent home without being
7 MR. HANNIS: That would be preferable, Your Honour, but I should
8 indicate, as I think I may have confused the Court because we propose to
9 have Mr. (redacted) be the last witness this week because if someone had to go
10 and return we thought it was probably more workable if it were him rather
11 than Mr. Radojko.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but they're both still here?
13 MR. HANNIS: Yes, they are.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I still see a possibility to deal with both witnesses
15 this week.
16 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That would be a tight schedule but that is what is in
18 our mind and it all depends on whether we can find the sufficient support
19 for Thursday afternoon. Because a courtroom is there on from 3.30 and I
20 have in mind that we would have then a little bit more than one session, a
21 session being one and a half hours. So if we could find two and a half
22 hours Thursday in the afternoon, then I think we could finish the whole of
23 the programme without sending back people without being examined in this
25 Then my next question, Ms. Loukas, is -- and I'm formulating it
1 quite precisely: Are you ready to start the cross-examination of
2 Mr. Hasanovic?
3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, I am.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I ask it specifically because, from your words,
5 I understood that you might not be able to -- you might not be prepared to
6 that level to finish today, but at least you could -- it would make sense
7 to start now, for the next 50 minutes.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. I'm more than happy to start now, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
10 MS. LOUKAS: And I would indicate that of course we did receive
11 some additional material the day before yesterday in relation to this
12 particular witness.
13 Just in relation to what Your Honour said about the remaining
14 schedule, I'd indicate that I'll be cross-examining the next protected
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MS. LOUKAS: And then Mr. Stewart will be cross-examining both
18 Mr. Radojko and Mr. (redacted).
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. LOUKAS: And I'm sure that Mr. Stewart would be available for
21 that additional session later on Thursday afternoon.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you also have noticed what approximately I
23 had in mind time it would take. That would mean for Mr. (redacted) two hours
24 for cross, and for Mr. Radojko one and a half hours for the whole of it,
25 and then we could try to finish all the witnesses without sending them
1 home and asking them to return, because that's one of the things the
2 Chamber would like to prevent to the extent possible.
3 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour. And the Defence is prepared,
4 of course, to assist in that process.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. LOUKAS: But, of course, I can't speak with entire precision
7 as to the length of Mr. Stewart's cross-examination.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. If you discuss it with him,
9 tell him that the Chamber likes his eloquence very much, but the Chamber
10 is also aware that sometimes eloquence takes some time. Please proceed.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, you gave a statement to the Prosecution back
14 on the 7th of April, in the year 2000; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And how long did that statement take for you to have that
17 particular interview with the officers from the Prosecution, the
19 A. I think it took a long time, in a hotel in a city in Germany. I
20 remember we worked all day.
21 Q. Right. So that would be approximately how many hours? Can you
22 put an approximate figure on it?
23 A. I believe that we worked anything between five and six hours.
24 Q. Now -- and of course you told the truth when you gave the
1 A. Yes. I said everything that I could remember, and I told only the
3 Q. And you told them about everything you knew?
4 A. Yes. What I managed to see and what I managed to retain in my
5 memory, I told them everything. Obviously, it is not always possible to
6 say everything, and I'm sure you will appreciate that, but to the best of
7 my recollection.
8 Q. Yes. And, of course, everything you said was taken down?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then, of course, when you'd completed your interview, you, of
11 course, had a chance to read through the entire statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Before you signed it, you read through it and you were asked
14 whether everything was true and accurate?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And, of course, whether or not there was anything you could add.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, just in relation to the first aspect of your
19 statement, in paragraph 1, you refer to the fact that you've reread the
20 statement that you'd given to the Bosnian authorities. Do you recall that
21 aspect of your statement?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And you pointed out in the statement that you gave to the ICTY
24 Prosecution investigators that you'd wanted to clarify something, and that
25 was that at the time of your statement, you'd made some references to men
1 being dead, but later you found out that they were actually alive. You
2 recall that aspect of your statement?
3 A. Yes, I do. And I will gladly clarify for you. Those were mostly
4 people of Serb ethnicity of whom I heard while I was in the hospital in
5 Zenica, and while I was in Visoko after I was exchanged, I heard from the
6 people who were exchanged together with me, and I also heard things in the
7 sports hall when they said: We are not killing only the Muslims, we are
8 also killing disobedient Serbs. For example, a man was hiding a Muslim
9 family and then he was killed, and then there was another man who helped a
10 Muslim and he was killed. So in my first statement I gave in the
11 hospital, when I was still depressed, that's what I stated. Later on,
12 after a while, I learnt from some Serbian friends and from Muslim friends
13 that these two people for whom I believed that they were dead were
14 actually alive and moving freely around Bratunac and that's why I
15 corrected my statement subsequently. Basically, I'm talking about two men
16 of Serb ethnicity that I was mistaken about.
17 Q. Yes, I understand that, Mr. Hasanovic. And what were their names?
18 A. Yes. One I know very well, Sinisa Neskovic, who was a shop
19 assistant in a village where I was born and where my parents resided. He
20 was a very honest and loyal citizen of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 The second I didn't know. His name was Momir Nikolic. As far as I know,
22 he was a teacher at the Bratunac school, and his name was Momir Nikolic.
23 That's what I heard.
24 Q. Now, in any event, I guess what you're saying there is that you'd
25 heard these people had been killed and then later you heard that they
1 hadn't been killed. That's basically a summary of what you're saying,
2 isn't it?
3 A. Yes. I heard from the people in the sports hall that they did not
4 kill only Muslims, but also disobedient Serbs, and I heard that this
5 Sinisa helped a Muslim man, that Momir hid a Muslim family, and that
6 that's why they had to be killed. That's what we all heard, and this is
7 what I stated in my first statement, and then in my subsequent statement,
8 I corrected that, because in the meantime I had heard that this was not
9 true, that these people were actually alive.
10 Q. Now, in your answer, Mr. Hasanovic, you referred to the sports
11 hall. Which sports hall are you talking about?
12 A. I was referring to the sports hall in the Vuk Karadzic school.
13 That's the school that I attended and that's the sports hall where I, as a
14 kid, also played games and did my physical education.
15 Q. So in any event, you were talking about the sports hall at the Vuk
16 Karadzic school. Now, just in relation to that correction that you made
17 to your statement, that correction about people being -- that you thought,
18 were told were dead and then finding out they weren't actually dead, that,
19 of course, was the only correction that you made or needed to make to your
21 A. Yes, more or less.
22 Q. More or less or yes?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. Now, in relation to that statement that you'd previously given,
25 you referred to about 2.000 Muslim inhabitants being taken to the sports
1 field in Bratunac. Do you remember saying that in your initial statement?
2 That was the statement when you were -- you've said you were in hospital.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. MARGETTS: -- it may assist the witness if he's provided with
6 a copy of that statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you are referring to specific part, the
8 Chamber has not -- has no copy of this statement. Then I'd like you to
9 read the relevant lines, or if you'd want to tender that statement, then
10 to provide it to us right away.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I hadn't actually proposed
12 tendering it. I only --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I wouldn't mind, but then I'd like the part you're
14 referring to to be read.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour. And also I can supply the
16 witness with a copy in B/C/S.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, please proceed.
18 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, I think you have a copy of the B/C/S version
20 of your initial statement before you?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Now, you'll note there that you say that they brought around 2.000
23 Muslim inhabitants to that sports field in Bratunac, all on the pretext
24 that they wanted to protect them from Arkan's and Seselj's men. Do you
25 see that particular sentence? It's around seven lines down in the English
1 version. Do you see the sentence I'm talking about, Mr. Hasanovic?
2 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Now, you there refer to 2.000 people, and in your statement to the
4 Prosecution, you said: When I arrived at the stadium, I saw at least
5 5.000 to 10.000 people. And in your evidence, I think you said between
6 four and five, as I recall. I could be corrected on that, but I think
7 that was your evidence today. Which is the correct figure?
8 A. Your Honours, I will gladly clarify this information. I stated
9 that there were two to two and a half thousand people together with me
10 from my neighbourhood were brought on the day to the stadium, and those
11 were mostly the villagers of Suha. In my statement, I said that there
12 were about four to five thousand people at the stadium. I believe that
13 both figures are correct, because I was not brought into the stadium
14 immediately. I was taken from the entrance to the stadium and then taken
15 to the sports hall, where I spent some two or three hours, and then again
16 another Arkan's men returned me to the stadium, and that's where I was
17 able to establish that there were even more people at the stadium, because
18 people from other hamlets had been brought in; from Redzici, Nizdrinu,
19 Mihaljevici, and others. So it started with the first figure while I was
20 still in front of the stadium. Later on, when I was brought in, the
21 figure was between four and five thousand.
22 Q. So, Mr. Hasanovic, you've clarified that particular aspect and
23 said that there were two to two and a half thousand people together with
24 me from my neighbourhood. So you're saying the two to two and a half
25 thousand people were from your neighbourhood; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And what's the population of your neighbourhood?
3 A. I don't know exactly. Suha is a big area, and I'm sure that there
4 must have been over 3.000 people, including women and children.
5 Q. Over 3.000 people, including women and children?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That's from the -- so that's the total population of Suha?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, just getting back to the people in that particular statement
10 that you have before you, the one you gave the Bosnian authorities. If
11 you turn to the second page of that particular statement. Now, you
12 indicate there some names of people that you say there -- I think your
13 exact statement is: I think a total of about 300 people from Bratunac
14 were killed, including -- and then you list a number of names there. Do
15 you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, just going through the names there, the first name you
18 mentioned there is Dzemo Hodzic. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And how did you say he died?
21 A. Dzemo Hodzic was killed in the sports hall. He was beaten, taken
22 to the lorry. However, he came to, because he was only unconscious. Then
23 he started shouting: Brethren, save yourselves. Otherwise you will be
25 Then they took him back to the sports hall and finished him off.
1 They killed him by beating him with wooden bats.
2 Q. And then this other man you mentioned here, Mumin Selimovic.
3 A. Yes. Mumin Selimovic. I knew him well. He was the manager of
4 the department store in Bratunac, so everybody in Bratunac knew him. I
5 only heard, I didn't see it, but I heard from the people who were detained
6 with him, or maybe from a group of people one or two days before, when we
7 all gathered, I heard that he had fled from Bratunac and then, when people
8 were invited to return and that they would be guaranteed safety, so he
9 returned, and the moment that he entered his house, some other people who
10 were standing around saw soldiers storming into the house, bringing him
11 out of the house, and killing him in his courtyard.
12 Q. In any event, Mr. Hasanovic, again, this is somebody that you
13 didn't see him killed, but you heard from other people; that's correct,
14 isn't it?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Now, this other person, another person you've mentioned there, for
17 example, Hasib Hasanovic.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How did he die?
20 A. Again, I heard that Hasib Hasanovic, who was the school principal,
21 that he was killed. I heard that he was killed. However, I did not
22 witness that. In my second statement that I gave to the OTP, I didn't
23 mention him because I did not learn any additional information about him,
24 so I couldn't be sure whether he was killed or not.
25 Q. Who told you that he was killed?
1 A. I was told that by the people who were with me in the camp or who
2 were exchanged either in Visoko or in the hospital in Zenica. They told
3 me that they heard that the school principal, Hasib, had also been killed.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, did you know Hasib Hasanovic?
5 A. Yes, I knew him, but I did not have any contacts with him. I knew
6 that he was a school principal. I knew of him.
7 Q. Now, of course, I think you realise, Mr. Hasanovic, that obviously
8 some of the information you hear from other people can be mistaken or
9 erroneous; you appreciate that fact, don't you?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I'm absolutely clear on that.
11 Q. Because apparently, Mr. Hasib Hasanovic is alive and well and
12 lives and works today in Tuzla as an educational inspector.
13 A. Yes, I've heard that. I heard that later, after I had given my
14 statement to the OTP. When I visited Bosna, I heard that Hasib was alive,
15 but that was in the year 2000, in July or in August, when I -- before I
16 went to America.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, so when you --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you allow me just to check. Is he one of the
19 two persons you just mentioned that you say you learned later on that they
20 were still alive, or is this a third person?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is a third person. In the
22 meantime, I found out about him, between the first statement I gave to
23 Bosnian authorities and the second statement I gave to ICTY investigators.
24 He is the third person I learned about. That's why I didn't mention him
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just to -- if I ask you whether this is a third
2 person or not, that's the most important thing I'd like to hear. If I
3 need any further details, and I think the same is true if questions are
4 asked to you by Ms. Loukas, that first try to answer the question just as
5 it is put to you, and if there's any further explanation needed, you'll be
6 asked for it. And if you really feel that it's very essential to give
7 further information, just say: I would like to explain that. And then
8 we'll see whether we'll allow you to do that.
9 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. So when you referred to that correction in your statement, that
12 being the correction in relation to the people being dead but not dead,
13 you referred to there being two people that you'd made an error about.
14 But there's, in fact, a third person that you've made an error about, but
15 you didn't refer to that in your evidence today. That's correct, isn't
16 it, Mr. Hasanovic?
17 A. Yes. I wouldn't say, though, that I made an error. I heard about
18 two of these three people between two statements that I have given, and I
19 found out about one more person about -- after giving those two
20 statements. And since that happened after I talked to the investigators,
21 I haven't mention it until now.
22 Q. So you found out after you gave the statement in -- on the 7th of
23 April, 2000, you found out that information. What precisely did you say
24 you found out about that information?
25 A. I learned about it when I went to Bosnia on a visit. I believe it
1 was July last year.
2 Q. July last year.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not quite sure about "last
4 year." Could the witness please repeat.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] July 2000, just before I went to the
6 United States.
7 MS. LOUKAS:
8 Q. Now, I think, Mr. Hasanovic, you attended a proofing session with
9 the Prosecution prior to giving your evidence today.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And how long did that proofing session take?
12 A. A couple of hours maybe.
13 Q. And you gave the Prosecution quite a deal of additional
14 information during that proofing session?
15 A. Yes. I spoke mainly about things that I remembered in the
16 meantime, and referring to documents, I mentioned some of the things that
17 I put in my second statement.
18 Q. So during this proofing conference, you didn't go into any details
19 about the names of the people that you were mistaken about?
20 A. We didn't talk about these names at all. Specifically concerning
21 Hasib Salihovic [as interpreted], the Prosecutor didn't remind me of
22 Mr. Hasib Salihovic or about Mr. Hasanovic and I didn't talk about it.
23 Q. So it wasn't dealt with in your proofing session, this question of
24 which names you were mistaken about.
25 A. You're right.
1 Q. So -- well, now that we've cleared up the fact that Mr. Hasib
2 Hasanovic is alive and well, I'd like to move on to a new topic.
3 You've indicated in your statement, that is, at -- that's
4 paragraph 21 in your statement. Do you have paragraph 21 of your
5 statement to the ICTY Prosecution investigators on the 7th of April, 2000?
6 A. Yes, I have it.
7 Q. You've indicated there: "I heard it was around this time." This
8 is the second sentence in that particular paragraph: "I heard it was
9 around this time that the Serbs were openly distributing weapons to other
11 Who did you hear that from?
12 A. From many people, Bosniaks who at that time still continued to
13 work together with their Serb neighbours in various enterprises and
15 Q. Now, also in your statement - this is paragraph 27 - do you have
16 that paragraph before you?
17 A. Yes, I see it.
18 Q. You've indicated there that: "Through meetings I heard that the
19 SDS leader Deronjic had gone to Pale on the 13th of April to meet Karadzic
20 to discuss and organise the take-over of Bratunac."
21 Who did you hear that from?
22 A. This bit of information I received mainly from Bosniaks, leaders
23 of the Bosniak people, and when they would come to visit my neighbourhood,
24 they would ask us what the situation was like, if there was any threat in
25 our belief. And at any rate, I heard this from Muslims.
1 Q. Just in relation to the injunction from His Honour to answer the
2 question, my question was: Who did you hear that from? And your answer
3 was quite long, and I think it can be answered a little bit more simply.
4 And in order to keep the time you spend being cross-examined a little
5 shorter, if an answer is capable of -- a question is capable of a short
6 answer, if you could give a shorter answer, it could help move things
7 along, I feel. Do you understand that, Mr. Hasanovic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, you've also indicated in your statement - this is paragraph
10 41 - sorry, that's paragraph 40. Do you have that before you,
11 Mr. Hasanovic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, you indicate there that you signed this loyalty document on
14 the 29th of April, 1992. And then you say that: "Searches and more
15 killings occurred after the deadline had passed." These searches and more
16 killings, I take it again they're just matters you heard about rather than
17 matters that you can give direct evidence about.
18 A. Yes. At the beginning, the first searches and killings were
19 something I did not witness myself. I heard about them from people who
20 were running away from the centre of town and trying to find shelter in
21 Suha. My house is located a little above the town, and I could see the
22 sound [as interpreted] of apartments being broken into, doors being
23 broken. And the people who would come back home would find their homes
24 burglarised and things stolen.
25 Q. Now, you also indicate in that sentence: "The Serb military were
1 stealing money, jewellery, cars, and equipment out of companies and
2 factories." I take it again that's something you heard about?
3 A. Yes. I heard about robberies in enterprises. There is a large
4 bridge between our town and Serbia, and I could see this road leading up
5 to the bridge from my home. I could see the traffic on the bridge going
6 into Serbia.
7 Q. I'm sorry to have to do this to you again, Mr. Hasanovic, but
8 unless the answers are a little shorter, and unless you want to say,
9 Look, I'd like to explain that, unless you really feel it needs an
10 explanation, we can get shorter answers and get through this a lot faster.
11 Do you understand what I'm saying?
12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. MARGETTS: In respect of that second reprimand, having
15 reviewed the answer, I'm not aware of why counsel sees any part of that
16 answer to be unhelpful.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether the witness personally
18 observed or heard about robberies. The first part of his answer was that
19 he heard about the robberies in enterprises and then he started explaining
20 about a large bridge with a lot of traffic, which suggests that that has
21 got anything to do with these robberies, apart from that it's not entirely
22 clear. I think the second part of his answer certainly does not respond.
23 So if you are asked whether you saw it yourself or whether you
24 heard about it, just tell Ms. Loukas: I saw it myself, or I heard about
25 it. And if she is interested to know from whom you heard it, she'll ask
1 you. Or if she is interested to hear what you actually saw, if you saw it
2 with your own eyes, she'll ask you where, when, what was stolen. She'll
3 ask, and for any details she'd like to hear from you. So, therefore,
4 we'll all try to help you to do it this way. Yes?
5 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Obviously, Mr. Hasanovic, it's --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas as well not to forget the microphone.
10 MS. LOUKAS: I'm always forgetting the microphone.
11 Q. So, Mr. Hasanovic, of course you're not used to giving evidence in
12 court, and I don't think you've given evidence here before, so I think we
13 all understand the difficulty of learning the rules quickly. Okay?
14 Now, when you speak about these robberies, money, jewellery, cars,
15 and equipment out of companies and factories, you refer there to the Serb
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, of course, I take it this being something you heard about as
19 opposed to something you witnessed yourself, obviously you can't assist
20 the Court with whether or not it was Serb military or paramilitaries or
21 volunteers or people off on a frolic of their own; would that be correct?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 MS. LOUKAS:
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanovic. Now, just going toward this question of
25 the trip to Pale. I think you've indicated in relation to the situation
1 there that there were no killings in Pale. That's correct, is it not?
2 A. [Interpretation] Yes. I did not see any killings of people from
3 Bratunac who had been brought to Pale.
4 Q. And you were told that you were being kept there for exchange and
5 you were exchanged approximately three days later; is that correct?
6 A. [In English] Yes.
7 Q. Now, just going to events in Bratunac prior to the events you've
8 spoken of today. Were you aware of, in approximately the 3rd of
9 September, 1991, that there was shooting in the village of Kajici,
10 directed by Muslims toward the Serb population?
11 A. [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that.
12 Q. Of course, you couldn't deny that it occurred, but it's something
13 that you're not aware of.
14 A. I don't know that anything of the kind happened. Maybe I can
15 provide you with some other information.
16 Q. Sorry, Mr. Hasanovic, other information in relation to what?
17 A. I heard that sometime in September of that year fire was opened on
18 two young men, two young Muslim men, and it happened in Kajici, near
19 Kravica. I don't know if that's the same incident. Two Muslim men were
20 killed and a third managed to run away. And that caused a lot of unrest
21 in Bratunac.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, so you can't assist -- I understand what
23 you're saying about the two Muslim men being killed, but you can't assist
24 in relation to that particular event I was indicating in relation to the
25 Serb population. That's what you're saying, is it not?
1 A. I don't know anything about that.
2 Q. Okay. Now, were you aware, on the 6th of May, 1992, of Muslims
3 attacking the Serb village of Nonja [phoen]? I hope that pronunciation is
4 correct. Sorry. I think I somewhat mangled that particular
5 pronunciation. It's Gniona.
6 A. I don't know anything about that. I know nothing about an
7 incident on the 6th of May, 1992.
8 Q. Well, do you know anything about two Serbs being killed there and
9 the population fleeing, the village being torched, and that particular
10 attack being carried out by Naser Oric?
11 A. I know nothing about that.
12 Q. Are you aware, on the 8th of May, the killing of Mr. Goran Zekic
13 by people associated with Naser Oric?
14 A. In the sports hall, after we were detained, I heard that Mr. Goran
15 Zekic had been killed by people from Srebrenica or Potocari.
16 Q. So that was the extent of -- oh, I see the time, Your Honour. So
17 that was the extent of your knowledge in relation to that incident I've
18 just been asking you about.
19 A. Yes. That's all I learned. And with your leave, Your Honour, I
20 would like to explain that we were isolated for about ten days, and any
21 information that reached us came from Serb soldiers.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Looking at the clock, would this be a suitable
23 moment to stop? If not, I'll have to urge anyhow to stop within one or
24 two minutes.
25 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. I'm more than happy to stop at this
1 time. There's no point in proceeding.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Hasanovic, I'd like to instruct you
3 not to speak with anyone, not with bypassers, not with the Prosecution,
4 not with the Defence, with anyone about the testimony you have given in
5 this court until now and the testimony you're still about to give, and
6 we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.
7 We'll adjourn -- yes, Mr. Hannis. Nothing special, Mr. Hannis.
8 Then we'll adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning, same courtroom.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of April
11 2004, at 9.00 a.m.