040726ED

Page 4523

1 Monday, 26 July 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-00-39-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

10 We'll resume after a couple of weeks where we had not been

11 sitting, and I think it's -- the next witness to be called by the

12 Prosecutor is in need of protective measures. Protective measures put in

13 place -- the decision was taken already, I --

14 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

15 MR. GAYNOR: The decision has not yet been taken.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet been taken.

17 MR. GAYNOR: Yeah. We filed a motion on the 21st of May, and the

18 Defence filed a response on the 28th indicating that they have no

19 objection.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, before -- Ms. Loukas has something to

24 say, I just wanted to introduce our team for this morning.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that there's a new -- well, perhaps

Page 4524

1 after such a long time, I should have given you an opportunity to

2 introduce at least, apart from yourself, Mr. Stewart, Ms. Loukas and Ms.

3 Ms. Cmeric, the other member of the team.

4 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed. It's not so long that they won't be

5 familiar faces, I hope, Your Honour. And on my far left is Mr. Thomas

6 Derrington, who is a member of the Defence team. It may be thought an

7 eccentric way to wish to spend your birthday to sit in court here, but

8 Mr. Derrington is an enthusiastic member of the team.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Derrington, welcome first; congratulations

10 second.

11 Yes.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just before you proceed --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MS. LOUKAS: -- there's a matter that I just wanted to mention in

16 relation to this question of protective measures. Mr. Gaynor, who's

17 indicated quite fairly that the -- when -- in response to the Prosecution

18 motion, the Defence response was no objection, I can indicate that I

19 spoke with Mr. Gaynor over the weekend in relation to this question of

20 protective measures and whether or not there would be any question of the

21 need for a further voir dire on the matter. I can indicate that I was in

22 receipt of certain additional information thereupon from Mr. Gaynor, and

23 there won't be any need for that.

24 I'd just like to place on the record that it would be useful for

25 the Defence and entirely in the interest of justice to ensure that we get

Page 4525

1 this information, and of course that the Court gets this information,

2 this additional information, relating to this most important question of

3 protective measures as soon as possible.

4 And I understand that Mr. Gaynor will in fact be eliciting that

5 particular evidence during the evidence in chief today.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MS. LOUKAS: But I'd just make the point that it would have been

8 useful to have the information a little earlier.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gaynor, of course I'm not asking you to

10 discuss this information, because I take it that's part of the -- those

11 are the reasons for which you asked for protective measures, but in

12 general Ms. Loukas says that it would have been helpful to receive that

13 information earlier. Is that something you could agree upon?

14 MR. GAYNOR: One point, Your Honour. Just as a matter of

15 procedural neatness, if we file a motion, the Defence file a response

16 indicating they have no objection, we consider it to be a little

17 unreasonable if the Defence subsequently come back to us and say, "Could

18 you provide more reasons for the motion."

19 Today when we go into private session, I will provide further

20 reasons. The witness is more than willing to tell Your Honours further

21 information if we should receive those reasons. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would just indicate in relation to

24 that that whilst it is true that the Defence response was one of no

25 objection, the question of protective measures and the maintaining of

Page 4526

1 protective measures is an important issue, and where there is continuing

2 information or additional information, whether it goes to the question

3 for or against the question of protective measures, I think there should

4 be ongoing disclosure on that question. That is my point.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then -- of course then from a purely

6 procedural point, it's clear that once a party has taken a position, if

7 there's evidence that could have been asked -- if there's any information

8 that could have been asked for at that very moment, then of course it --

9 that party should not come back to it. If there's any information they

10 could not have even imagined that it could be there, then of course it

11 was an obligation for the other party to provide that information timely.

12 So it's a bit of a, I would say, both parties -- submissions of both

13 parties could make sense depending on the circumstances. I think the

14 most complete information when asking for protective measures should be

15 given. On the other hand, if there's any information not known at that

16 time and that becomes apparent later, it should be disclosed to the other

17 party, even after a decision has been given.

18 Now, I think that both parties said that no decision had yet been

19 taken where I had suggested a decision was taken. I think on the 3rd of

20 June, transcript page 3430, we have the -- I think I said: "And finally

21 we have Witness 565. The Chamber is satisfied that the reasons given by

22 the Prosecution justify the granting of protective measures. Therefore

23 also the Prosecution has requested that this witness be referred to in

24 public hearings and filings by the pseudonym Witness 565 and that his

25 identity and whereabouts not to be revealed to the public and that the

Page 4527

1 witness be permitted to testify using image and voice distortion. These

2 requests are granted, and the registrar is invited to convey the content

3 of this decision to the Victims and Witnesses Unit."

4 That's the decision on the 3rd of June, so I'm a bit surprised

5 that the parties thought that no decision was yet taken.

6 Let's continue. I'd like to turn into -- well, I think the

7 curtains have to be taken down for the entry of the witness. We'll not

8 be in closed session, but for the witness to --

9 Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, I see that you'd like to raise an issue.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wouldn't like to address this

11 particular topic that is on the agenda, but I would like to ask you, Your

12 Honours, if possible, would you allow me 15 or 20 minutes during this

13 week to address a few matters linked to your previous ruling, which was

14 on the agenda prior to this break that we had.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That is the time needed for the preparation of the

16 Defence, which was only partially granted; is that what you would like

17 to ...?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no intention of asking for

19 any revision of that decision, but my comments are linked to that

20 decision, so I would kindly ask you to allow me 15 to 20 minutes sometime

21 this week to make this point.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we would find such a moment. At the

23 same time, I invite counsel to -- or the other way around, to instruct

24 your client what are the limits of commenting on decisions of the -- of

25 course, it's not the situation that no observations could be made in

Page 4532

1 exhibit under seal. The first exhibit consists of the witness's ICTY

2 statement and four sketches attached to it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What about a pseudonym sheet?

4 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry, Your Honours, quite right. We do have a

5 pseudonym sheet, which is ready. I'd ask that the registrar show that --

6 the usher show that to the witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. GAYNOR:

9 Q. Sir, could you confirm that the name and the date of birth shown

10 on this sheet are correct.

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request that that sheet be given an exhibit

13 number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P215,

15 under seal.

16 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, the next exhibit - and I would request

17 that that be given an exhibit number - is the ICTY statement of the

18 witness, four sketches attached to it, and two short supplementary

19 statements, also ICTY statements. We suggest that that bundle be treated

20 as one exhibit, in English and B/C/S.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would then have number --

22 Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P216.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the bundle of statements and two

25 original statements. It's not the original one to the extent that

Page 4533

1 numbers have been added?

2 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. GAYNOR: I would request that the B/C/S versions of those

6 statements be shown to the witness at this point.

7 Q. Sir, I'd like you to confirm, after you've finished inspecting

8 those statements, that those are the statements that you gave to the

9 investigators of this Tribunal.

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Are the contents of those statements true, to the best of your

12 knowledge and belief?

13 A. There are a few mistakes concerning dates. I believe that there

14 is a mistake in one of the dates. Maybe it's a translation mistake. But

15 99 per cent of the document is correct. There is just one date that is

16 incorrect. I believe that it is the 14th of May, and there's also

17 another word. I believe that it is under item 69 of my statement or

18 maybe 68. Let me just have a look to be sure. 68 it is. Here there is

19 a -- it says here, "They told me that they would take me away." I'm

20 reading a sentence in line 4: "They told me that they would take me to

21 the medical centre and they didn't." Item 68. And this can only be a

22 translation mistake, nothing else.

23 Q. Thank you for that. Sir, in due course we will come to your

24 testimony regarding what happened after the ICRC visited, and I would

25 like you to fully explain the issue at that time.

Page 4534

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4535

1 Are there any other corrections you wish to make on the record

2 now, sir?

3 A. Maybe I should say that one or two dates may be wrong. Maybe it

4 says the 14th of May, and it should say the 15th or the 16th of May.

5 Maybe I have made a mistake in quoting those dates when I was describing

6 events. Maybe I said that something happened on the 14th of May and it

7 might have happened on the 15th. However, it was a long time ago, and

8 the only two dates that I remember well are the 22nd of June and the 7th

9 of July, and these are the dates that I will never forget. For the rest,

10 I may be mistaken.

11 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Their Honours, I think, will take that

12 into account in reviewing your evidence.

13 Sir, I'm now going to read a summary of your statement so that

14 the public have an idea of the substance of your evidence.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'm now going to read a summary of the

16 evidence. This summary has been amended following a submission by the

17 Defence to remove one sentence, which will be explored in direct

18 examination. So I'll go ahead now and read that summary, if that's all

19 right.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do, Mr. Gaynor.

21 MR. GAYNOR: The witness was raised in and has lived all his life

22 in Sanski Most.

23 After the beginning of the war in Croatia in 1991, he noticed an

24 increase in anti-Muslim propaganda on the radio and television.

25 Checkpoints manned by the army, the military police and the regular

Page 4536

1 police appeared on the roads. Initially the checkpoints were used to

2 control people of all nationalities, but in 1992, they were used to

3 control non-Serbs only.

4 A Serb War Presidency, headed by Nedeljko Rasula, was established

5 in the municipality.

6 On about 18 April 1992, the Serb and Muslim police forces

7 separated. Around this time, Muslims and Croats were required to return

8 any former JNA uniforms and weapons which they had in their private

9 possession. Muslims in the witness's village continued to patrol using

10 hunting rifles.

11 On 13 May 1992, the witness saw Serb families in military trucks

12 and on tractors leaving for the mountains.

13 On the same day, Serb forces in the village of Podlug, near

14 Sanski Most town, used mortars and anti-aircraft cannons to fire on the

15 village of Trnova.

16 The following day, the witness heard that Serb forces had

17 attacked the Muslim police in Sanski Most.

18 Local SDS President Nedeljko Rasula later announced on the radio

19 that all Muslims and Croats were required to hand over their remaining

20 weapons; he said that the Serb army would guarantee peace and security.

21 A schedule for the handover of weapons was announced.

22 During the second half of May 1992, the freedom of movement of

23 non-Serbs was restricted further.

24 On the 26th of May, 1992, there was a further radio announcement

25 that all Muslims should surrender their weapons.

Page 4537

1 On the following day, regular troops and reservists gathered the

2 population of Mahala, a predominantly Muslim part of Sanski Most town, at

3 a soccer field.

4 On the 28th of May, 1992, Serb artillery shelled Mahala, which

5 was by then empty of its population. Houses in Mahala were set on fire,

6 about four or five at a time. Refugees from Mahala began arriving at the

7 witness's village the next day. Serb police also escorted about 700

8 non-Serbs to the village of Stari Majdan.

9 On the 29th of May, 1992, the witness heard shelling and

10 explosions at the village of Vrhpolje.

11 On the 18th of June, 1992, Serb police arrested the witness at

12 his house and detained him at Betonirka, a set of garages in Sanski Most

13 town, located behind the SUP building. Betonirka is a detention facility

14 28.1 in Schedule C to the indictment. The witness was detained at best

15 Betonirka for 19 days. During that period, the witness was detained in a

16 garage which was about 5 or 6 metres long and 4 metres wide. The garage

17 held about 30 detainees, who slept sitting down due to the lack of space.

18 There was one window of about 60 centimetres by 30 centimetres. There

19 were no sanitary facilities, and detainees relieved themselves in the

20 garage.

21 Apart from three nights, Serb reserve policemen took the witness

22 every night of his detention to a building, where he was interrogated and

23 beaten. Several of the witness's ribs were broken as a result. All but

24 one of the detainees in the garage were also beaten.

25 On the 22nd of June, 1992, the witness was taken to a location

Page 4538

1 about 1 and a half kilometres from Betonirka, where over 20 men were made

2 to dig their own graves, kneel, and were killed by having their throats

3 cut.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please slow down. Thank you.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Local SDS president Rasula was present at the

6 killing site. The witness will testify today in more detail about this

7 event, which is listed as event 17.1 in Schedule B to the indictment.

8 "On the 7th of July, 1992, the witness and 63 other detainees

9 were instructed to board a truck on a stiflingly hot day. Tarpaulin

10 covered the truck. Due to the extreme heat and lack of air, a number of

11 the detainees died on the trip to Manjaca. The witness will also testify

12 today in greater detail about this incident, which is listed as

13 incident 1.3 in Schedule B to the indictment. Manjaca camp is detention

14 facility 1.4 in Schedule C to the indictment.

15 On arrival at Manjaca, surviving detainees unloaded the dead

16 detainees and the camp commander refused to accept a number of extremely

17 dehydrated detainees who were about to die.

18 The witness was detained at Manjaca in a large cattle shed for

19 four and a half months. He will describe today the conditions of

20 detention there, the beatings he received and saw, and the killings he

21 witnessed. From time to time, the witness was" -- excuse me. "From the

22 time the witness was arrested in June until his release in November, his

23 weight reduced from 90 kilogrammes to 55 kilogrammes."

24 This witness's testimony is relevant to all counts in the

25 indictment.

Page 4539

1 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you a few questions about your evidence.

2 I'd like to concentrate, first of all, on the period after the police

3 force split into a Serb force and a non-Serb force. You said in

4 paragraph 11 of your statement that the SOS, the White Eagles, and the

5 local SUP of Sanski Most worked together on a regular basis. What was it

6 that made you believe that they worked together?

7 A. In simple terms, all those wearing uniforms, that is, the JNA

8 uniforms, the SOS uniforms, which were at that time not called the Army

9 of Republika Srpska. Their commander was Dusko Saovic, also known as

10 Njunja. In my view, he was the commander because he had a white

11 headband, he had long hair, and he was the one who was leading them.

12 They all had access to town, and they carried weapons in town. They

13 could walk normally.

14 Before that, I would like to say something else. The JNA had

15 blocked the town and the police station even before that, and it was only

16 then, even before the attack on the police station, while people were

17 still moving freely, you could see Chetniks moving around, JNA troops and

18 other units while it was still all right for them to move around. I

19 believe that it was on the 27th or the 28th of May. So one could see

20 that they were moving about freely, whereas us civilians, Muslims and

21 Croats, we were all stopped at checkpoints, whereas they were never

22 stopped and checked. They could go through the checkpoints without any

23 hindrance and they carried arms.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. You referred to checkpoints where you were

25 stopped and controlled but Serbs with not stopped and controls. Which

Page 4540

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4541

1 forces were manning those checkpoints?

2 A. Up to the moment when the police were divided, it was the JNA and

3 there were some Muslims with them up to April -- actually, up to Bajram,

4 and I can't tell you when Bajram was in the year 1992. As from then on,

5 all the Muslims and Croats were removed, and from then on the soldiers in

6 olive-drab uniforms were there. There was the army. There were rifles,

7 and the police were in containers. This was the checkpoint at the

8 crossroads, as I was going from my village to the town. There is a

9 crossroads there that is in the shape of a cross, and it is on the

10 right-hand side as you start walking from my village.

11 Q. Thank you. Sir, could you -- in your statement, you mentioned

12 the presence of White Eagles, Seselj's men, in the municipality. Did you

13 see -- as well as the SOS. Did you see the White Eagles and Seselj's men

14 working with police at the checkpoints?

15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that question. Of

16 course, the statement is in evidence. I think it's preferable if

17 questions are to be asked to the witness, that they not be asked in a

18 leading fashion in relation to specific areas.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, if no question is asked about it, then

20 of course the statement is in evidence, so if it would add something to

21 what is in the statement, I would agree with you; if it's, as we see

22 happen now and then, if it's mainly seeking confirmation of what is in

23 the statement as a -- well, as a start for further questions, then I

24 would not mind if the witness is led.

25 Would you please keep that in mind, Mr. Gaynor.

Page 4542

1 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

2 Q. Sir, in your statement, you said that Nedeljko Rasula, the local

3 SDS president, and president of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff, was your

4 teacher in elementary school and in secondary school. How often did you

5 see Mr. Rasula in the period leading up to --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, may I ask you something: Don't you seek

7 any confirmation any more from what you just asked the witness? Or do

8 you think it is something you should ask in a different way? Because we

9 have not received any answer before we heard the -- well, "objection" is

10 perhaps true strong a word, but the suggestion by Ms. Loukas not to lead

11 the witness. You asked him about --

12 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- about -- at least, working together, were there

14 any groups who were working together. Yes.

15 Would you please revisit that point, because we might be in a --

16 MR. GAYNOR:

17 Q. Sir, at the checkpoints, who, if anyone, did the Serb police work

18 together with?

19 A. At that checkpoint that I had to pass on my way home from work,

20 there were no Seselj Chetniks or White Eagles, but they were at the

21 checkpoint towards the Stari Majdan, on the Sanski Most-Prijedor road.

22 There was a checkpoint there at the crossroads; one road led to Prijedor,

23 and that's where they were manning the checkpoint. They were stationed

24 some 500 metres away in a little wood under the tents. When I say

25 "they," I'm referring to Seselj's men and to the White Eagles.

Page 4543

1 On several occasions while I still worked, I went to Majdan, to

2 Gumera [phoen]. There is a rubber factory there that is used for axles

3 on vehicles, and that's how I saw them.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one additional question: You said where

6 the Seselj and the White Eagles people were manning checkpoints. Do I

7 properly understand your testimony that on those checkpoints there were

8 just the Seselj's men and the White Eagles? No other groups?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the checkpoint on the

10 Majdan-Prijedor road, they were the ones that were manning that point,

11 whereas the checkpoint on the road from my village to town, they were not

12 there. They would come every now and then, but they wouldn't check

13 people. They did check me once, but they did not ill-treat me. They

14 inspected my official documents and they let me go. In Sanski Most,

15 however, they did not check people, but in Majdan, at that crossroads,

16 they were the ones who controlled that checkpoint.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they were the exclusive present people at

18 that checkpoint at the Majdan-Prijedor road?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Were there others then as well, and who were they,

21 at that specific checkpoint, Majdan-Prijedor road?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were stationed there, some 500

23 metres away towards Majdan, you know, and they probably controlled those

24 who were passing because of their camp that was situated a little bit

25 further away. They did not do anything to me. They did check me. Some

Page 4544

1 of them had the insignia kokarda on their caps and the others had white

2 banding on their armed forces.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please listen carefully to my question.

4 My question was whether at that checkpoint where you said the Seselj and

5 the White Eagles were, the Seselj men, were there any -- at that

6 checkpoint any other groups? Whatever groups. Or were there just the

7 Seselj and the White Eagles?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was passing by, they were

9 there alone. There was five of them when I was passing through. Maybe

10 there were some later on; however, I didn't see that, and I can't tell

11 you what I didn't see.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

14 MR. GAYNOR:

15 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you about Mr. Rasula, who was your teacher

16 in elementary and high school. Did you see Mr. Rasula at all in early

17 1992 before June?

18 A. Yes, I saw him. Sometime after New Year, he came to the mine,

19 and he had a word with my bosses. I was present there. I wasn't there

20 all the time. I stayed with them for some ten minutes or so. I attended

21 that technical meeting. After that, I had to tend to my duties. I don't

22 know what they were talking about. And I also saw him once in June, when

23 I went to collect my paycheck. The war had already started. I saw him

24 in the restaurant. That was around noon. I saw him and the others from

25 the Crisis Staff. They were sitting in the Slozna Braca restaurant,

Page 4545

1 because my administrative building was across the road from that

2 restaurant, so one could see them sitting in that restaurant. You could

3 see them as you were leaving the building because the tables were in

4 front of the restaurant, and I found it a bit odd to know that houses

5 were being set on fire in the town and at the same time the president of

6 the Municipality and the president of the Crisis Staff were sitting in a

7 restaurant. I found that very odd at that moment.

8 Q. I'd like to move on to show you a photograph, sir, and I would

9 request that this exhibit be given an exhibit number.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P217.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we continue, I noticed that where we

13 usually give a .1 number to the -- for the translations, it's a bit of a

14 problem in relation to 216 because the -- I think the first two

15 statements have been signed by the witness in the English language that

16 have been read to him, but the third one is -- the original B/C/S version

17 has been signed by him. So I would therefore need some further

18 consideration how to number them, because if we take the English as the

19 original, then it would not be true for the third -- the short statement;

20 whereas if we would take the B/C/S it would not be valid for the first

21 two ones. So what is original and what is -- we'll give that some

22 thought and we'll finally make up our mind.

23 Please proceed, P217 to be put on the ELMO.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 MR. GAYNOR:

Page 4546

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4547

1 Q. Sir, do you recognise that building?

2 A. Yes. These are the garages in Betonirka.

3 Q. Is this where you were detained?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In which garage, looking at it from left to right, were you

6 detained? Just indicate to the Judges as best you can.

7 A. In the last, in the third, as you are looking from the right to

8 the left. Or the first one, if you're looking from the left to the

9 right.

10 Q. It's the closest garage to the camera; is that right?

11 A. No. No. It is actually the furthest, and the door of that

12 garage is closed. Because the photo was taken from the back. Here you

13 can see the gate, the gate leading to the garages.

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 MR. GAYNOR: I would request that the witness be shown the next

16 exhibit, which is also a photograph. And I'd request that that be given

17 the next number.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That would be P218.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. GAYNOR:

21 Q. Sir, do you recognise this photograph -- this building?

22 A. Yes. This is the garage where I was detained. You can see the

23 window on the right-hand side here.

24 Q. Now, was that window open while you were detained?

25 A. The window was open, but there was a pallet full of bricks very

Page 4548

1 high up, so even if -- when the window was open, nobody could escape

2 through the window, because there were bricks placed one on top of the

3 other in front of the window. So nobody could get out through the

4 window, even if it was open.

5 Q. And isn't it right that during the 19 days of your detention

6 there were about 30 of you at any given time in that room?

7 A. Yes. There were some 30 of us. Only on Tuesdays there were

8 fewer of us because on Tuesdays people were transported, so on Tuesday

9 there would be about 15 of us and on Wednesdays new detainees would be

10 brought in and placed in the garage.

11 Q. How many hours a day were you kept in that garage?

12 A. What do you mean how many hours? The only time I didn't spend in

13 the garage was when I was taken to be beaten, and that was the only time

14 I didn't spend in the garage.

15 Q. And what was the temperature like in that garage while you were

16 detained there?

17 A. We didn't know that, but it was terribly hot. The garage did not

18 have a roof but just a concrete slate. There was no protection against

19 the heat. This concrete slate even increased the temperature. And when

20 the day was sunny, anybody who found themselves in the garage was

21 suffering. There were people who would faint during the day. We did not

22 receive enough water. We would only receive maybe two, three, or four

23 decilitres of water during the day, and that was all the water we had,

24 the drinking water, the water to dress our wounds after we were beaten.

25 That was all the water that we received.

Page 4549

1 Q. What was the air like in the garage?

2 A. The air in the garage was terrible. We were all stinking from

3 the excrement that was there that couldn't be cleaned away, so that it

4 was really unbearable. But there you are. I survived.

5 If there were 30 of us in the garage - and it was about 6 by 4

6 metres in size, which makes it 24 square metres - let us say that there

7 was about 70 cubic metres of air. And oxygen accounts for 21 per cent.

8 One needs 3 and a half cubic metres of air to be able to breathe

9 normally. And there must be some flow of air, because the doors didn't

10 fit absolutely, so that is what helped us survive.

11 Q. Is it right, sir, that while you were working in the mine, that

12 you were a member of a mine rescue team and so you have some amount of

13 experience in the amount of air required by a human being to survive?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, again, I

16 don't -- if there is going to be additional information to the statement,

17 I think it's appropriate that it's not led.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question to you was -- and I'll

19 reformulate it -- what gave you specific knowledge on how much air a

20 human being would need to live?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In every mine that has underground

22 pits, a team of rescue workers is formed should methane explode or coal

23 dust, and these people had to be fit physically and mentally to extend

24 first aid to the injured on the spot, so I went through special training

25 for three months for extending first aid in the case of such accidents.

Page 4550

1 The doctor who trained us gave us instructions as to the quantity of

2 oxygen a human being needs. We had special equipment, isolation

3 equipment. Should we notice there was a shortage of oxygen, then we

4 would have a special meter to show us how much air we could give to the

5 injured person through our own equipment to help that person overcome the

6 problem. So if the doctor told me wrong, I am telling you wrong as well.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I instruct you as follows: The question

8 was: What gave you special knowledge? You told us in quite some detail

9 on what exactly the doctor told you, but if you would have first answered

10 that you got special training as a mine rescue worker including knowledge

11 on the air one needs to survive, that would have been sufficient at this

12 moment, even without going into so many details, because we're under some

13 time restrictions and the main reason for putting this question to you is

14 to find out what gave you this special knowledge, rather than on how you

15 gained it specifically, but where did you get it -- at that course, given

16 by a doctor.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. You said that on the third day of your detention - this is

20 paragraph 35, Your Honours - you were taken to the SUP station for

21 interrogation. Who took you to the SUP station?

22 A. A reserve policeman wearing a police uniform, Kravic. I don't

23 know his name.

24 Q. What were you interrogated about?

25 A. Well, they asked about weapons, why I hadn't handed over my

Page 4551

1 weapons, whether I had any weapons, and they said I did have weapons.

2 Actually, they were right, only I told them that I didn't at first. I

3 didn't want to admit that I had a weapon, but I did. And I said this in

4 my statement. Because if I had admitted to having the weapon, I

5 certainly wouldn't be here today. All those who admitted were killed.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. All those who had weapons and surrendered them.

8 Q. Sir, in your statement - again, at paragraph 36, Your Honours -

9 you said that after the interrogation finished, a reserve policeman

10 called Kravic took you out of the office and Dusko Zoric told him to push

11 you down the stairway. The policeman hit you with a rifle on the back

12 and you fell down the stairs. You landed on the first landing, and the

13 policeman kicked you in the back again. You fell down the stairs again

14 and you had to stand up immediately to avoid more beating. You say that

15 you were in substantial pain and discomfort and you still have a scar

16 from the rifle butt.

17 I have two questions about that: First, did you receive any

18 medical attention from this injury?

19 A. No. No. There weren't any doctors there.

20 Q. Second, is there any continuing pain and discomfort to you as a

21 result of that injury?

22 A. Yes, I suffer. But it's -- I was beaten up. In the back I have

23 a scar from the rifle butt which tore off a piece of tissue, and it's

24 quite visible on my back.

25 Q. Sir, you said that you were beaten on all but three nights that

Page 4552

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4553

1 you were in Betonirka. Now, apart from the SUP building where you were

2 beaten on the third night, where were you beaten on all the other nights?

3 A. Next to the Betonirka there is what is known as the

4 administrative building. It leans on the Betonirka, and there are three

5 premises there, and then in the evening around 10.00 they would start to

6 beat us. They would take us from the garage, beat us up. They would say

7 that they started work at about 10.00 when it fell dark, as it was

8 summertime, and they would beat people so badly. They did all kinds of

9 things. They cursed. They never asked me the same questions when they

10 took me for this what they called interrogation.

11 Q. You said that they would typically start beating you at 10.00.

12 How long approximately were you beaten for on an average night?

13 A. Well, it depended, how many people would join them from the

14 outside. Even young people, children, even people who were my

15 subordinates would come, if they left work early, and I had to take down

16 these things. If they were supposed to work for eight hours a day, I

17 would write that down, and then he would come and take his revenge on me,

18 and all kinds of things happened there, not just to me but to everyone.

19 If a man would fall down -- but if I were to go into these details, I

20 would need to go into closed session.

21 Q. Sir, you said that people would join "them" from the outside.

22 When you used the word "them," who were you referring to?

23 A. The policemen, the guards who were guarding us in the Betonirka,

24 because five or six of them normally couldn't guard them -- guard 90 of

25 us. Then they would call in young men from the coffee bars. People who

Page 4554

1 knew we were there would beat us. I can explain in greater detail the

2 things that were happening, but I wouldn't like that to be done in

3 public. These are things that a normal person would never do.

4 Q. Sir, during those beatings, did you normally remain conscious, or

5 did you normally lose consciousness?

6 A. Sometimes I would lose consciousness, and on other occasions I

7 would remain conscious. And then if that other person would faint, then

8 we would have to pick him up and take him back running. For example,

9 should he have a bowel movement in an unconscious state - and as I said,

10 there were three rooms and they were beating in three groups - so we

11 would have to carry this person out quickly.

12 Q. Sir, could you confirm with a yes or no: Were you always forced

13 to remain seated, or were you sometimes forced to stand upright?

14 A. Sometimes after the beating we were forced to stand up, upright,

15 with our heads bent and our arms on our back, and we would stand like

16 that until we would fall down. And then if somebody fell down, we would

17 pick him up.

18 Q. Sir, I propose now to move you to the 22nd of June, 1992. In

19 statement, you describe an incident at Kriva Cesta. Now, sir, you said

20 you were taken out of a garage in the morning and put you in a car. That

21 car went to Kriva Cesta. When you arrived there and you got out of the

22 car, where exactly did you go?

23 A. When I arrived, they shoved me out of the car, opened the boot,

24 and told me to pick up a shovel. The road was above the stream. There

25 was a 5- or 6-metre embankment, and they told know go down to the stream.

Page 4555

1 Q. Now, when you are using the word "they" -- you say "they shoved

2 me out of the car." Who was "they"?

3 A. The policemen. And in my statement, you have the names. You

4 must understand, I mustn't mention the names, because if I do that --

5 shall we go into private session and then I can give you the names?

6 Q. No, sir. Thank you. It's in your statement, and the Judges have

7 your statement. We'll remain in open session.

8 Sir, you said that they told you to go down to the stream. Now,

9 on your arrival at the stream, what did you do?

10 A. They told me to dig. I looked around, and I saw men standing on

11 my right, and there were another two who came to stand on my left, and I

12 saw that they all had shovels in their hands, and we were told to dig. I

13 knew what I was digging. No one needed to explain anything to me.

14 Q. How long did you dig for?

15 A. I don't know. It was difficult to dig because as you dug a hole,

16 the water would take away the earth.

17 Q. What did you do when you had finished digging the hole?

18 A. I stood looking as much as I dared to and as much as it was

19 possible to see at that point in time.

20 Q. What did you see?

21 A. As there were willows there, I saw men in uniform standing with

22 their rifles pointed at us, and a little further away, some 50 metres, I

23 saw Nedeljko Rasula and some other men whose names are given in my

24 statement.

25 Q. Why are you -- what was Rasula doing?

Page 4556

1 A. He was sitting. They were about 50 metres away and they were

2 sitting at a table.

3 Q. What were they doing at the table?

4 A. Eating and drinking, at least as far as I was able to see.

5 Q. You said that you and some others were forced to dig.

6 Approximately how many others were forced to dig?

7 A. In my judgement, there were about 20, 22, 23 men to my right, as

8 far as I was able to judge. There weren't two or three, but in my

9 estimate that many. One of those was found.

10 Q. What did you hear around this time, if anything?

11 A. First I heard gurgling, screaming, and I thought that my turn had

12 come. A few pistol shots could be heard, and the man next to me - and I

13 said this in my statement - I recognised him as he fell. He turned

14 around with his face towards me, and I could see from his neck that blood

15 was coming from the left side of his neck.

16 Q. What was the cause of that blood coming from the left side of his

17 neck?

18 A. As I said in my statement.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you have preferred to go into private session?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. May I explain?

Page 4563

1 session. If at any point you want to return to private session, please

2 just say so.

3 I'd like to take you to the last day of your detention at

4 Betonirka, which was the 7th of July, 1992. Now, you mentioned that a

5 number of you were beaten on the morning of the 7th of July. Were you

6 personally beaten on the morning of the 7th of July?

7 A. Yes, I was personally beaten on that day. The man that I

8 remember very well who beat me, he had a piece of wood with knobs 1

9 centimetre apart. I was doing exercises, and he was beating me and he

10 was also -- there were two others that were standing on -- to my side,

11 and they were kicking me with their feet.

12 Q. Did you lose consciousness or did you retain consciousness after

13 that beating?

14 A. I was neither conscious or -- nor did I faint. I would faint and

15 then I would come to.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 MR. GAYNOR:

18 Q. I'd like to take you to the moment that you were loaded onto a

19 truck. How many of you were loaded onto that truck?

20 A. I didn't know at the time how many of us were loaded onto that

21 truck. I didn't know the number until we arrived in Manjaca. In Manjaca

22 I learnt that there were 64 of us. One of the inspectors who was

23 escorting the convoy told us that there were 64 of us from Betonirka.

24 Q. After the truck left Betonirka, did it go directly to Manjaca

25 without stopping?

Page 4564

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4565

1 A. No. No, it didn't. It stopped. The truck had a canvas cover,

2 and that canvas cover could be locked. For example, nowadays when you

3 have a truck crossing the border, it can be sealed. Instead of that seal

4 that trucks have today, this truck had a lock. It was locked.

5 Q. How much fresh air was there in that truck?

6 A. It was scorchingly hot on that day. Under the canvas cover, it

7 was hard to breathe. The canvas could not be opened; it was locked, as

8 I've said. When the truck stopped for the second time to be checked,

9 according to what we heard - this was on the Vrhpolje bridge - by then,

10 one lad started dying. I believe that his name can be found in the

11 statement. On that day, it was his eighteenth birthday. He was the

12 first one to die in that truck. And then people started dying one after

13 another, because there was no air in the truck.

14 Q. How much water did you have in the truck?

15 A. There was no water at all, none whatsoever. I had a little

16 flask, an aftershave flask with water. I drank that, and then I used the

17 flask to urinate in, and then I drank urine. I found a rotten apple in

18 the truck. That's what I had to eat. And I believe that this is how I

19 survived.

20 Q. Now, the distance between Betonirka and Manjaca is not an

21 extremely long distance. Could you explain to the Judges why it took so

22 long for the journey from Betonirka to Manjaca.

23 A. Well, in my view, this was done just to torture us. It seemed

24 like an eternity to me. We arrived in Manjaca at dusk, and we left

25 Betonirka around 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning. It was summertime, and

Page 4566

1 it was dusk, so I reckon it must have been sometime around 9.00 or half

2 past 9.00 in the evening, and we departed around 11.00 in the morning. I

3 did not have a watch, because when I arrived at Betonirka everything was

4 taken away from us -- money, personal documents, watches, jewellery -- so

5 we couldn't actually tell the time.

6 Q. You said that on the truck there was no water at all. Did you

7 ask the guards for water?

8 A. At one place when we stopped, we did ask for water. We were

9 shouting, "Water. Water." And some women wanted to give us water, but

10 they chased them away. I don't know who the women were. We couldn't see

11 that. I only know that we were shouting to be given some water.

12 Q. Did you ask the guards to let in more fresh air?

13 A. We didn't have an occasion to do that. We tried to take our

14 clothes off, and then we wanted to wedge our shoes between the canvas

15 cover and the lorry sides. When we did that, they would snatch those

16 away. They would fire shots in the air. They would curse our mothers

17 and insult us, and they would say, "Look at them. They want air."

18 Q. Could you just clarify that when you used the word "they would

19 snatch our shoes away and they would fire shots in the air," who are you

20 referring to when you used the word "they"?

21 A. The policemen who were our escorts.

22 Q. Now, on your arrival at Manjaca, when the truck stopped, what

23 happened then?

24 A. Well, when the truck stopped when we arrived at Manjaca, they

25 opened the canvas cover, and when they did that, literally they told us,

Page 4567

1 "See how they stink, the balijas. Fuck their mothers," when they opened

2 the canvas cover in the back. And then they told us to get out.

3 First they started calling our names, but those who had died did

4 not respond, and then they told us that those of us who had survived

5 should get off the truck. And when we got off, a man introduced himself

6 to us. He gave us his nickname. He introduced himself as Fadil Bula.

7 We were told to pull out those who still gave some signs of life. We

8 were told to pull them off the truck.

9 Q. Can you remember how many of the detainees were dead when you

10 arrived at Manjaca?

11 A. As I was sitting next to the driver's cabin, I was the last to

12 get off the truck. According to my estimate, there were maybe 19 -- 18

13 or 19 people who had died. It was very difficult to count. However, I

14 could see that some had died sitting down. The person that I mentioned

15 before died in my lap. It was very difficult to get off the truck. You

16 had to step over the dead bodies. I believe that they took off some six

17 people who were still alive, but just barely. Then the camp commander

18 came and said, "This Muslim shit is not entering the camp alive." Before

19 that, Dr. Sabanovic came, and when he examined them, he was a detainee

20 himself. He said that they needed some medical assistance because they

21 were dehydrated. The commander said, "There's no such thing." And then

22 he said, "The shit has to go back onto the truck because I don't need

23 them in the camp."

24 Q. I'd like to focus on those six detainees who you said were still

25 alive but just barely. Did you ever see any of those six men again?

Page 4568

1 A. No, I didn't see them. The 19 that I was referring to were found

2 in 1992 or in 1993. Their bodies were buried, and the DNA analysis was

3 used to establish the identity of five of them. And as for the others, I

4 never saw them again and they're still missing and their bodies are still

5 being looked for.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, at this point I'd like to show the

7 next exhibit, which is a video. I'd request that this be given an

8 exhibit number. The B/C/S and English transcripts of this video are

9 available. The content of the transcripts, for Your Honours's guidance,

10 is not enormously valuable. It's the images that are of importance in

11 this video.

12 This video is made up of a number of clips from CNN, BBC, and Sky

13 News. They have B/C/S subtitles, and we have added English subtitles,

14 which will appear at the very bottom of your screen underneath the B/C/S

15 subtitles.

16 JUDGE ORIE: First a number will be attributed to the video.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the CD gets the exhibit number

18 P219, the English transcript gets the exhibit number P219.A; and the

19 B/C/S transcript gets the exhibit number P219.A.1.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just check whether we always put a dot

21 between the number and the letter, but the 219A at least. Yes.

22 Yes, Ms. Loukas.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

24 Just in relation to this question of the video. Obviously the

25 purpose for which the Prosecution seeks to tender the video was on the

Page 4569

1 basis of the visual images. And as I understand it from what Mr. Gaynor

2 has just said, there's no reliance placed on the transcript. Now, in

3 those circumstances, Your Honour, I would be objecting to the transcript

4 coming in as evidence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, we do not consent.

7 The transcripts in question - you'll see the video in a moment -

8 you have a little bit of the normal news presentation commentary that

9 ordinarily accompanies videos of this kind from CNN, BBC, and Sky News.

10 They're of assistance simply in understanding what you're looking at.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please review those parts of the

12 transcript, Mr. Gaynor, that are really serving that. For example, I'm

13 just reading very quickly. If you say what we saw was a shed and in the

14 better days might have housed animals. Now it homes more than 600 men,"

15 that's a kind of description of Manjaca. That clearly indicates what we

16 see. On the other hand, if we hear a male voice saying: "The prisoners

17 told us how it was even more tragic in the Omarska camp," then of course

18 that has got nothing to do with what we see but just gives additional

19 information.

20 So perhaps you could review what is adding to the pictures and

21 what is just -- because then we introduce a lot of hearsay opinion, which

22 as such is not inadmissible, but -- and, of course, if we say "The

23 conditions are detained -- are not even for animals, let alone people,"

24 as you may be aware, there's quite a lot of discussion on what should be

25 granted to animals, so therefore even the threshold would be -- but I do

Page 4570

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4571

1 understand. So it's a lot of additional impressions and additional

2 opinion that is contained in it. So if you would please, then, identify

3 what in your view is most relevant in the transcript. And if you,

4 please, could tell us what you think is essential. What do we need in

5 addition to what we see? I do understand it's about Manjaca.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I've just conferred with Mr. Tieger.

8 In our view, the nature of this evidence is really no different

9 to a newspaper article or written forms of media evidence which we tender

10 and are accepted in evidence as a matter of course.

11 Now, it may be that Your Honours might wish to see the video,

12 review the transcript, and decide that perhaps it should be admitted in

13 evidence. If you'd prefer for us to select those parts that we do want

14 to have in evidence, we can do so after this hearing.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, a decision has still to be taken on

16 admission. And as is the case in -- let's say in Bench trials, usually

17 you have the material in front of you before you decide whether or not to

18 admit it in full or not.

19 So let's play the video, but please be aware that not everything

20 of the transcript might be such that the Chamber could accept it as a

21 basis for forming its opinion in this case.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, the video is, I think, a little bit

24 under four minutes long. I think the best way is simply to play the

25 video in its entirety.

Page 4572

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's do so.

2 [Videotape played]

3 REPORTER 1: Paddy Ashdown had broken his holiday and travelled

4 for three days over a thousand miles to get to Manjaca camp. What he saw

5 was a shed that in better days might have housed animals. Now it homes

6 more than 600 men. Here the prisoners eat, sleep and live 24 hours a

7 day. Most of these men just arrived three days ago from the camp at

8 Omarska. Their faces still haunted by memories they did not dare relate

9 in the presence of their guards. For five minutes Paddy Ashdown was

10 allowed to speak privately to the men. However grim their conditions

11 here, they told him, things are much better than the place they had just

12 come from. The camp commandant had promised Mr. Ashdown total freedom to

13 see anything he wanted. In the event, he was told that wasn't possible.

14 Even during Mr. Ashdown's visit, time was limited to a mere half hour and

15 access was limited to only a few prisoners. As he left, he said that

16 however bleak things seemed to be, this camp could appear to be properly

17 run.

18 PADDY ASHDOWN: Clearly I had access to those prisoners without

19 the guards' presence. I detest their conditions and I find them

20 disbelievable. They've had an appalling time in Omarska, where they'd

21 come from. I think it's a tremendous achievement on the part of the

22 press to have exposed that and based on that they've saved very many

23 people's lives. But every prisoner I spoke to here, without the guards'

24 presence, has told me that, "Conditions are not what we want them to be

25 but they're a hell of a lot better than what they were before."

Page 4573

1 REPORTER 1: With the visiting politicians gone, what these men

2 have suffered in the past remains largely unspoken. Caroline Hurt in the

3 Manjaca Prison Camp in Bosnia.

4 REPORTER 2: Manjaca is a military camp in Serbian-held Northern

5 Bosnia. Authorities say they hold 3.500 prisoners here, including about

6 1.000 from the notorious Omarska camp. Pictures of emaciated captives in

7 detention centres last week outraged the international community and

8 prompted the Serbian leaders to quickly transfer a hundred into this

9 military facility.

10 This terrified little prisoner mumbles that conditions here are

11 slightly better.

12 "We get enough food now," says this man. We were only allowed to

13 interview two inmates, and in each case the soldiers immediately wanted

14 to know what we had asked.

15 This is one of the camps officials from the International Red

16 Cross say they will be inspecting this week. Indeed, the president of

17 Bosnia's Serbs has offered to hand them control of all of these detention

18 centres. The Serb leadership is under tremendous pressure to allow

19 outsiders access to these camps. The proposed UN resolution would

20 authorise any means necessary to implement that access, as well as

21 guarantee the supply of humanitarian aid. Still, even though Karadzic

22 himself authorised our visit to this camp, journalists were allowed less

23 than half an hour to assess the situation. Soldiers moved us along

24 rapidly, allowing us to take very few pictures and to ask even fewer

25 questions. The camp commandant insists that the Geneva Conventions are

Page 4574

1 being respected, but those prisoners we asked maintained they are

2 civilians, not soldiers. Those we saw are crammed into cattle sheds

3 where they spend all day and all night, huddled together like animals.

4 They are permitted to leave these quarters only briefly to a small ration

5 of bread and soup. Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Manjaca in Northern Bosnia.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

7 Q. Sir, at the start of that video, you saw a cattle shed which we

8 might be able to get a picture of it on the screen in a moment. I'd like

9 you to confirm for the Court whether or not that was the room in which

10 you were detained.

11 A. I can't see anything on my screen.

12 Q. Sir, we'll rectify the matter in a second.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I first ask you, Mr. Gaynor, before we

14 continue, is this a literal translation? I've got an English transcript

15 which starts at 2.43 -- no, 2.34 and then continues at -- I take it

16 that's the time, 2.45. The B/C/S starts at 2.15, and then it's 2.43.

17 And if I could draw your attention also -- let's just say at the time

18 4.41, where it says in English "male voice," and then "this terrified

19 little prisoner mumbles that conditions here are slightly better." And

20 then if I look at 4.41, it says "zatforenik" and then "zefik 2" [phoen].

21 What is this? Is this a B/C/S transcript of words spoken originally, or

22 is this a B/C/S translation of the programme as it was broadcasted in

23 English?

24 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I think the most efficient method of

25 dealing with this, not being a B/C/S native myself, is to consult with

Page 4575

1 the people who prepared these transcripts and we will come back to you

2 either in written or in oral form.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, as far as times are concerned, even

4 knowledge of the B/C/S language would not help you, is it? But let's

5 hear from you at a later stage, because it seems to me that this is not a

6 translation of what we've seen in English, but perhaps it's also a

7 translation of the undertitling in this, because I see some reference now

8 and then to titles. I also see that, for example, names are appearing in

9 the B/C/S version where they do not appear in the English version. For

10 example, 4.09, which comes closest, I think, to 4.11, gives a female

11 voice. 4.09, starting with Caroline Kerr, and in the English version we

12 see "female voice," and then at the end she says "Caroline Hurt, prison

13 camp in Bosnia." So it seems to be two things we have on paper, fine.

14 And it should be clear to us whether Caroline is called Kerr or whether

15 her name is Hurt is something still to be found out.

16 Please proceed for the time being, but give us a clear

17 explanation of what you presented us as transcript of this video.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I could just indicate for the benefit

20 of the Trial Chamber that Ms. Cmeric, who of course is a B/C/S speaker,

21 has indicated to me that so far going through the document there seems

22 to be -- perhaps a problem with the actual times that are indicated in

23 the document and not so much with the content, apart from a certain area

24 where there seems to be -- I think which Your Honour also identified was

25 in relation to -- yeah, just a sentence at one point that seems to be not

Page 4576

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4577

1 dealt with in the other version. But at this point, that's what

2 Ms. Cmeric has pointed out to me, for the benefit of the Court. There

3 seems to be some issue in relation to the actual times that are placed on

4 the document.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Obviously that needs to be clarified, but I thought

7 I'd bring this up at this point --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that Ms. Cmeric can --

9 MS. LOUKAS: To assist us.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the interpreters can already tell me what

11 zatforenik means.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Prisoner, Your Honour, prisoner number 2.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's prisoner number 2, and that's prisoner

14 number 3, and yes, that certainly does not appear -- it seems that there

15 are two sources, the words spoken in original and the commentary given.

16 Perhaps it might even be a good idea to see whether the original words

17 spoken and giving less comment could also provide a solution to the

18 previous matter raised by Ms. Loukas, because she wanted to get rid of

19 the commentary and, rather, find out what we see, and perhaps the

20 original B/C/S words spoken by those appearing under those circumstances

21 might be a better solution for that.

22 But please give it some thought, and please come back to it at a

23 later stage.

24 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

25 Q. Sir, if you look at the image on the screen in front of you --

Page 4578

1 Mr. 565, do you recognise that building?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is that building?

4 A. It's the camp that used to be a cow shed.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak into the microphone,

6 please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Sir, could I ask you to come closer to the

8 microphone. Yes. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the detention camp. Before

10 that, I think it was a cow shed, because we could see where the cattle

11 were eating and sleeping.

12 MR. GAYNOR:

13 Q. Is that the building in which you were detained at Manjaca?

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Sir, in that video, you might have seen a British politician,

22 Mr. Ashdown, suggesting that the catch was well run. And I'd like to ask

23 you a few questions about that. How much were you given to eat on a

24 typical day during your detention at Manjaca?

25 A. I can explain what the food was like. They would take a loaf of

Page 4579

1 bread of 800 grams. Then they would cut it in two, then again

2 lengthwise, so you'd get four quarters of one loaf. So one loaf of 800

3 grams. It was brown bread. And then it would be cut up into 44 parts.

4 If there was tea in the morning, it was tea without sugar. And if it was

5 beans, you'd get ten beans in a plate, because that was all. Or if it

6 was cabbage, then you'd get two leaves of cabbage. The rest was just

7 water that wasn't salty or had no gravy or anything in it.

8 Q. How much did you receive to drink at Manjaca on a typical day?

9 A. On their -- in their military rubber pots, they would bring about

10 30 litres for us, and there would be 800 of us, and this would be

11 distributed in such a way that a person would get half a glass of water.

12 Sometimes the first one to drink would take a little more than half.

13 Then the other one would have less left. Anyway, it wasn't sufficient.

14 And water was distributed twice; on rare occasions, three times.

15 Q. How often did you wash yourself at Manjaca?

16 A. Not at all. Only when the International Red Cross came, they

17 assembled a kind of military showers outside, and they allowed a couple

18 of detainees to shower while they were there, and while the television

19 was filming, they were bathing. And after that, we were not allowed to

20 bathe. And it was only when the Red Cross installed themselves there

21 permanently that they brought us plastic jerrycans with which we went to

22 fetch water, and then we could wash ourselves, but this started towards

23 the end of August. But up until then no one had a proper bath, nor could

24 they wash their teeth. There was lice. And that's how it was. Some

25 people got diarrhoea because of the very poor hygiene.

Page 4580

1 Q. Sir, you referred to the -- that you got a very small piece of

2 bread. They would take a loaf of 800 grams and cut it up into 44 parts.

3 How often per day did you receive a piece of bread of that kind?

4 A. Twice. And when they said they didn't have any, we would get it

5 only once, but mostly we got it twice a day.

6 Q. Sir, you must have been extremely hungry. Did you try to get

7 food from anywhere outside the barn?

8 A. I didn't try to get any food until the International Red Cross

9 came. And as I was saying, that didn't happen until the end of August.

10 And once when I went to the toilet, I'd pick some grass and started

11 eating it, and then I got slapped and cursed at. The grass was best

12 around the toilet.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, may I ask you one thing: Is there any

14 dispute about food being far below what a human being needs, water to be

15 far below what a human being needs, sanitary conditions very bad in

16 Manjaca? Is that something in dispute; yes or no? It's --

17 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, it's not an area I intend to

18 cross-examine on.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then the witness statement and -- of course, this

20 could have been discussed between the parties. I do understand that the

21 conditions in Manjaca camp were such that provision of food was totally

22 insufficient, provision of water was totally insufficient, sanitary

23 conditions were totally insufficient, and I would have to look at the

24 indictment to see exactly what was still -- medical care, I think, was

25 similar, I take it, Ms. Loukas, insufficient. I have to check in the

Page 4581

1 indictment what exactly Mr. Krajisnik has been charged with in this

2 respect as far as the conditions of Manjaca camp are concerned, but ...

3 MS. LOUKAS: I can just indicate.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Further in relation to the question that Your

6 Honours asked me, is that I don't propose to cross-examine in relation to

7 the conditions at Manjaca camp.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MS. LOUKAS: And it's certainly not an area that I could have

10 instructions from my client on. He, of course, did not know what was

11 happening at Manjaca camp, and it's not an area I'd propose to

12 cross-examine on.

13 JUDGE ORIE: He might have found out later. That's a

14 possibility. He could have instructed you. But I do understand that you

15 have received no instructions in that respect.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, therefore, the conditions at Manjaca

17 camp are not contested by the Defence.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'd just like to clarify for the

19 record. Ms. Loukas said she did not intend to cross-examine on the

20 conditions. I'm not entirely sure that they accept all the conditions in

21 Manjaca camp.

22 JUDGE ORIE: At least what I do understand is that they accept

23 the evidence. They do not dispute the correctness of the evidence as

24 such.

25 Is that a correct understanding, Ms. Loukas?

Page 4582

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4583

1 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, as I've indicated, it's not an

2 area in which my client can give instructions, so it's not an area, of

3 course, that I propose to cross-examine this witness on, or to, in terms

4 of, you know, Rule 90(H) under the Rules of this Tribunal, or more

5 formally known as Browne and Dunn under Anglo system, I am not in a

6 position to cross-examine in relation to those issues and I don't propose

7 to.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do then understand, because I think then that is

9 the issue, that your client couldn't instruct you because he has no

10 personal knowledge of it. Therefore the evidence as it is presented in

11 the written statement seems to be not under attack.

12 If tomorrow another witness comes and says, "No, the situation

13 was totally different," of course, then we'll have a new situation that

14 arises, but at least the Defence is not in the position to say what this

15 witness tells us should be contested; it's not true what he says or --

16 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, especially since we're working on

18 the -- also on the basis of a written statement, I'd like you to limit

19 yourself to those parts that really add something to what's already on

20 paper. And of course, I can imagine that you say the bread of 800 grams,

21 whether it was given once a day or twice a day, that may have some

22 relevance. But then you can just refer to the bread of 800 grams and ask

23 how many -- how often did you receive such bread a day? Because he has

24 already explained clearly in his statement how it was divided among how

25 many people. This is just to guide -- give you some guidance in how to

Page 4584

1 proceed.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Sir, you were inspected by the Red Cross, and I'd like you to

5 tell the Court -- that was in about mid-July. I'd like you to tell the

6 Court what happened to you on the night after you were inspected by the

7 Red Cross.

8 A. I allowed them to examine me. The lady was from Geneva. After

9 that, they came to fetch me and said that I would go to the clinic.

10 Actually, they didn't take me to the clinic, but they beat me up in front

11 of the building, just in front of this shed. They took me round the

12 corner and they beat me. They beat me up badly. I would lose

13 consciousness and come back to, and that -- I think they thought I was

14 already dead, and they said that they would go and beat the others who

15 had allowed the International Red Cross to examine them, so that that is

16 what happened to me. And in that condition, I heard cries and screams

17 and I saw people taken to be beaten. The next day in the morning I had

18 to get up because there was no possibility of remaining lying down,

19 because I would be beaten again. And when I went for breakfast, I saw

20 them carrying out two dead people. The names of those people I do not

21 wish to mention, because they're in the statement. Actually, they beat

22 three men that night, but two of them were killed.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. In your previous answer, could you explain to

24 the Court who you mean when you used the word "they."

25 A. The people that they mentioned, the names they said of the men

Page 4585

1 that they were going to beat because they had let themselves be examined.

2 Q. Who beat you, sir?

3 A. Bula, Bulatovic, Zoka, and a third man whom I don't know.

4 Q. And who were they? What position did they hold at the camp?

5 A. I said at the beginning that when we arrived -- he said that he

6 was a Muslim, and he said -- he cursed at us, "Why aren't you in the

7 proper army? You see, you're prisoners of war now." So I assume that he

8 was one of the commanders in the camp, but in any event, he wore a

9 military police uniform.

10 Q. Sir, do you remember an incident where guards discovered a

11 detainee who was hiding a small candle?

12 A. Yes, I do remember. Actually, he wasn't hiding this candle.

13 These people came from the sports hall, about 800 of them, on the same

14 day that we had come, and in that sports hall they had candles. All the

15 prisoners from my town had candles, as they were separating the men from

16 the women, and when they were being searched, they found this small piece

17 of candle on him. They beat him so badly that the door -- a sliding door

18 would open up, and they continued beating him until he fainted.

19 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I have no further questions of this

20 witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

22 Ms. Loukas, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

23 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. The only thing I need is the

24 lectern.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I know that in the context of equality of arms

Page 4586

1 the lectern is shared by the parties.

2 MS. LOUKAS: It's only fair, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 Mr. 565, you will now be examined by Ms. Loukas, who is Defence

5 counsel.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please take off your headphones for one

8 second.

9 Ms. Loukas, I am aware that there exists a term "the art of

10 advocacy."

11 MS. LOUKAS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Your Honour. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I understand it's an art. Please make it not too

13 artistic.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Not too artistic?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

17 MS. LOUKAS: I will take on board Your Honour's remarks, just for

18 the record. Of course, Your Honour, we are dealing with the art of the

19 truth.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's exactly what we're aiming at.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

23 Q. Now, good morning, Witness 565. Can you hear me, Witness 565?

24 A. Yes, I can hear you.

25 Q. Yes. Now, Witness, I understand that of course you're under

Page 4587

1 protective measures, so that what I propose to do is indicate to you what

2 area I'm going into prior to my going into it in sort of general terms so

3 that you will be in a position to indicate to me whether or not you would

4 prefer to be in private session for that particular answer, in case

5 there's a possibility of any identifying features. Do you understand

6 that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So if we work together in that way, we'll be able to ensure that

9 your protection is maintained. Are you with me so far?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, Witness, obviously that -- the statement that's now in

12 evidence before the Court is a statement that you gave over some three

13 days. That's correct, is it not?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. And, of course, you've had the opportunity to make two further

16 correction statements?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, of course, you've confirmed in court today that you stand by

19 your statements but there is only the possibility of perhaps a date wrong

20 here or there; is that a correct statement of your evidence, Witness?

21 A. Yes. Or there may be a shade of meaning changed in the

22 translation. I said straightaway that I noted that in a couple of places

23 the translation may not be absolutely correct.

24 Q. So you're saying, Witness, that it's not just a question of the

25 dates; is that correct?

Page 4588

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 4589

1 A. No. I just said in paragraph 69 I think there's an error in the

2 translation. They said that I would be going to the clinic, but they

3 didn't take me to the clinic, as it says here. And I said that when I

4 came here in court. In paragraph 68.

5 Q. Yes, I appreciate that, Witness. But other than the

6 clarifications you made in court today, I think that -- I think that your

7 answer was that, "There are a few mistakes concerning dates. I believe

8 that there is a mistake in one of the dates. Maybe it's a translation

9 mistake, but 99 per cent of the document is correct. There is just one

10 date that is incorrect."

11 A. One date and what I just said in paragraph 68. There's just one

12 sentence which is not correct. It is not what I said.

13 Q. Yes. So other than the corrections that you gave in court when

14 you were answering the questions of the Prosecutor, it's just this

15 possible question of dates; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now -- and, of course, when you gave your statements, you knew it

18 was important to tell the truth.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And, of course, you know that it's important and in fact a duty

21 to tell the truth both in your statements and in court.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when you were -- when the statement was actually being taken,

24 I take it you were asked certain questions by the Prosecution, and you

25 told them what you could remember in relation to the areas they were

Page 4590

1 questioning you about.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you now about what occurred on the 22nd of

4 June. Now, do you have a copy of your statement in front of you,

5 Witness?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Now, if you just want to turn to paragraph 45 of your statement,

8 you'll see what is -- you'll see that those paragraphs cover the events

9 of the 22nd of June, 1992; correct?

10 A. Yes. I don't know what exactly is in dispute here.

11 Q. Now, of course, I think you understand, Witness, that there is a

12 very important role, in terms of the Defence, to ask questions and for

13 you to answer truthfully, and the -- there is, I think -- if I might put

14 it this way, not a great deal of use in attempting to second-guess what I

15 might be asking. Do you understand what I'm saying?

16 A. Go ahead. Put questions to me.

17 Q. Now, when you were taken out of Betonirka garage, it would be

18 true to say, would it not, that you were obviously very scared when you

19 left the garage?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you arrived at that particular -- at your destination -

22 I don't want to mention any names lest we identify you - but when you

23 arrived at the destination, it would be true to say that you were, I

24 would imagine, even more frightened when you arrived there.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4591

1 Q. Now, from the time you got out of the motor vehicle and went down

2 to the stream, I take it that would have been a period of just a few

3 minutes, perhaps two or three minutes; would that be correct?

4 A. Well, maybe two, three minutes. I had to take the shovel out of

5 the back of the car.

6 Q. Now, once you reached the stream and you were asked to begin

7 digging, obviously that was a situation of enormous stress. You'd agree

8 with me there?

9 A. I could not have been under more stress than I was when I first

10 arrived there. I don't know what you're referring to when you say

11 "enormous stress." I was under stress. I had already come to terms with

12 my own death, and that was the stress that I suffered while I was there,

13 down there by the stream.

14 Q. Now, of course, Witness, that's precisely the point. You were in

15 a situation where you were under enormous fear for yourself, enormous

16 stress, and, of course, thoughts of imminent death.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the witness said, Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 MS. LOUKAS:

21 Q. Now, you indicated in your evidence today that this group of

22 people that you saw sitting at a table were some 50 metres away; correct?

23 A. Yes, that was according to my estimate at that moment. But let

24 me ask you something in return: Have you ever faced your own death?

25 Because I have.

Page 4592

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. 565, I fully understand that such a thought

2 comes into your mind. At the same time, I have to ask you to refrain

3 from putting questions to counsel. If there would be something specific

4 you'd like to address, please address me and then we'll see what to do.

5 Yes?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 MS. LOUKAS:

9 Q. And now, of course, when you saw this group of people some 50

10 metres away at a table, that was, of course, something you saw for only a

11 few seconds; correct?

12 A. Yes. This is as much as one could see. It's correct.

13 Q. So, Witness, being absolutely fair, isn't it possible that it

14 wasn't Mr. Rasula sitting there 50 metres away from you on that day?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, this is a technical matter. If

16 there's voice distortion, you're invited to put off your microphone when

17 the witness answers that question because he has a specific microphone

18 but the sound could also come through your microphone. That's the

19 reason. You might not be aware of it. So you're invited to --

20 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- to put it off.

22 MS. LOUKAS: I'll ensure that it's going on and off constantly.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MS. LOUKAS: I'm just ensuring, Your Honour, in that regard that

25 I get some assistance. Because sometimes it's easy to forget whether the

Page 4593

1 microphone is on or off.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm aware of that. And mistakes are made now

3 and then, and that's unavoidable.

4 Please proceed.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Perhaps I might repeat the question, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please go do so.

8 MS. LOUKAS:

9 Q. Now, you'll see, Witness, that I asked you this question --

10 Remember, we've been through the situation of great stress, the limited

11 time period, a matter of seconds, and the distance. Now, what I'm --

12 what I'm suggesting is that being absolutely fair, it's possible that it

13 wasn't Mr. Rasula sitting at that picnic table. What do you say to that?

14 A. First of all, I know Rasula's voice. Second of all, that

15 morning, when I was being put in the Mercedes, Rasula was driving ahead

16 of us. And what I saw on him -- the clothes, the chequered coat, a

17 shirt, and a red tie. And especially his voice when he said to them to

18 leave me alone. And I could not have been mistaken, because the clothes

19 that he wore were very typical of him and his clothes. And his

20 handwriting I can recognise any day.

21 Q. Now, of course, if you look in the statement that you have before

22 you where you discuss this particular incident, you don't mention that

23 Rasula was driving ahead of us. Do you agree with that?

24 A. I do, and I didn't. He did take off in his car. At that moment,

25 I did not know what his direction was when they were putting me in the

Page 4594

1 car. I know where Rasula lives. I know where his apartment is. And he

2 went this way and then that way, and the facility where I was was on that

3 road and the one that we saw in the photo, and there's just a sliding

4 door through which you could see that.

5 He never asked me. Nobody ever asked me whether I had seen

6 Rasula at that moment.

7 Q. At which moment, Witness?

8 A. I don't know whether this is working or not.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think everything works. If you are -- the

10 question was: You said, "Nobody ever asked me whether I had seen Rasula

11 at that moment." The question was: At what moment you meant to refer?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that morning. Nobody asked me

13 whether I saw Rasula that morning. None of the investigators asked me

14 that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MS. LOUKAS:

17 Q. Now, Witness, the situation is, I think, you're indicating

18 that -- you're now indicating that you saw Rasula earlier that morning

19 and that your recognition comes in the form of the clothes that were

20 being worn. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes. This is correct. I saw him as he was passing in his car.

22 Because he stopped for a moment. It was his younger son who was driving

23 the car, and he was in the passenger seat, and he was to the left from

24 the facility where I was at the time.

25 Q. Now, so, Witness, in relation to that question I asked you

Page 4595

1 whether or not you'd be prepared to concede that you're possibly mistaken

2 about Mr. Rasula being there, you tell the Court that you're not prepared

3 to concede that possibility; correct?

4 A. It is correct. How am I going to deny what I saw? It would be

5 as if I did not see this pencil that is in front of me. I saw him.

6 Q. And in response to that -- the suggestion I made that it's

7 possible you're mistaken, you go on to indicate, having seen Rasula

8 earlier, a matter that's not contained in your statement; correct?

9 JUDGE ORIE: The witness said that already, Ms. Loukas.

10 MS. LOUKAS: I'm finishing off on this point. These are the

11 final questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas asked you whether it's true that you did

13 not mention that you saw Rasula earlier that morning to -- during the

14 interview.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, she did ask me that, and I

16 said that the investigator had not asked me that. And since nobody asked

17 me, I didn't say anything. I just answered the investigator's questions,

18 and that was my role. I just answered what I knew. And if nobody asked

19 me, I didn't say anything.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. So you blame the investigators for not asking you the right

23 questions; is that correct?

24 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, this is an inadmissible question.

Page 4596

1 That's not what the witness suggests. He just says, "I answered

2 questions," and he's not blaming anyone, but he's mainly telling us how

3 it went. Therefore, I think the suggestion is incorrect.

4 Please proceed.

5 MS. LOUKAS: If Your Honour pleases.

6 Q. Okay. So basically what you're stating to the Court is if

7 somebody doesn't ask you about something in the context of a three-day

8 record of interview and opportunities for corrections, you don't do

9 anything other than specifically the question asked.

10 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, we must object. This is paraphrasing

11 something which the witness has clearly not said.

12 Secondly, we're not entirely sure why it --

13 JUDGE ORIE: It is what the witness said, because the witness

14 said, "I didn't give any -- if something was not asked to me, I would not

15 have told anything about it." I'll take over for just one second.

16 Did you during this interview ever come up with something you had

17 in your mind as being important or relevant and included this in your

18 statement, although not specifically asked about it?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did that very rarely, you know,

20 because if a statement is very big, then it is not concise. And I just

21 answered questions. This is what I did. Because if, for example, a

22 question is not put to me to the effect, "Did you see Rasula on that

23 morning," I -- how could I answer something that was never asked of me?

24 How am I going to blame the Prosecution for not putting questions to me?

25 They did put questions to me, and whatever questions they put to me, I

Page 4597

1 answered within the context.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said you rarely came up with something

3 they did not specifically ask you. Do you remember an example of that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me add something about the

5 questions not being put to me. This happened very rarely. It did happen

6 that I added something, but there were also some questions that were not

7 thoroughly answered to. There were some things that I meant to say, but

8 I did not say it to the end. Sometimes I didn't give all the details,

9 because I also wrote a diary, and even my diary does not contain all the

10 details of the events for various reasons, because this was not done

11 either for the public or for the press.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked you whether you remembered an example

13 of something you came up with without being asked.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't tell them anything that

15 they didn't ask me. I tried to be as precise in my answers as possible.

16 Do you understand? They put questions to me, and I would make sure that

17 I answered exactly what happened, whether something had happened or not.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. You said, "It happened rarely."

19 That's why I asked you whether you still had an example of such a rare

20 occasion in your memory.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the

22 investigators or are you referring to the court?

23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm referring to the interviews with the

24 investigators.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very rarely did I volunteer

Page 4598

1 information. It didn't happen -- it didn't happen that I would tell them

2 things they didn't ask me about. The only thing I told them, and I

3 volunteered, was that I had a weapon. I didn't want to lie to them,

4 because somebody might have testified here that I had a weapon, and if I

5 hadn't told them -- told that to the investigator, obviously I have would

6 have lied to them. I didn't want to do that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

8 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas. And perhaps for your guidance, the

9 importance of leaving this out seems not to be overwhelming, the part you

10 asked questions about.

11 MS. LOUKAS: The importance of leaving out the ...?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, not coming up with it by the witness himself,

13 that he -- there was an earlier occasion when he -- I mean, that's the

14 whole issue. You're asking about -- well, we're talking about how

15 important it was that he did not mention that. He told us that he was

16 not asked about this. Now, we could add another ten questions, but it's

17 of course the judgement of how -- whether one would expect someone to

18 come up with that spontaneously rather than being asked, and that's, of

19 course, a matter on which the witness could only to a limited extent

20 assist us in basing our judgement upon. Do you understand what I mean?

21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And --

23 MS. LOUKAS: I think I do, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If it's not clear enough, I'll ask the witness to

25 take his headphone off.

Page 4599

1 Could you take off your headphones for one second. Yes.

2 The whole issue is he didn't tell it to the investigators, at

3 least it has not been written down. How important is this aspect as to

4 expect someone to come up with spontaneously, if not specifically asked

5 about? I mean, that's the issue. It's not specifically a matter of

6 fact. It's rather a question of judgement on how reliable-unreliable is

7 a witness who doesn't come up with this detail, and that's something even

8 asking five, six, seven more questions to that -- on that issue to the

9 witness will not really add substantially to forming a judgement on

10 whether one could expect, then, whether -- how -- and the reliability of

11 the witness in this respect.

12 Please proceed.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you for that, Your Honour. That's -- I

14 understand Your Honour's point. I will just ask two more questions on

15 this topic, if I may, and then I will leave it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But keep it as close to the facts as possible.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Now, Witness, I just want to ask you this question: Surely

19 you've been in a situation where you thought you saw someone you knew

20 from afar and realised when you got up close that you were wrong. Surely

21 you've had that situation happen to you.

22 A. Yes. It does happen sometimes. Everybody has experienced that.

23 It's only human.

24 Q. And, of course, I take it when you were in conference with the

25 Prosecution yesterday, they discussed with you this question of the

Page 4600

1 identification of Mr. Rasula?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. And you didn't think to tell them yesterday about this additional

4 piece of identifying evidence.

5 A. Let's be clear on one thing: This is not an additional piece of

6 identifying evidence. I know this person's voice very well, and he was

7 my elementary school teacher for four years. In January 1992, we were

8 sitting at the same table. So if none of the things had occurred prior

9 to my seeing him, I would have still recognised his voice. If none of

10 the things that never occurred to me to tell them, I would still

11 recognise this man by the voice. Don't forget the fact that I worked

12 under the ground for 30 years and I was really very good at recognising

13 people's voices in the dark.

14 Q. Now, just looking at your paragraph, paragraph 47 of your

15 statement. Could you have a look at that, Witness. Do you have that

16 paragraph before you, Witness 565?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you'll recall that you told the Court today that you heard

19 Rasula's voice. Do you recall giving that evidence?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, of course, in that paragraph, you don't say anything about

22 hearing Rasula's voice; do you concede that?

23 A. It is not mentioned here. That's correct. However, it can be

24 found in my diary. I wrote my diary in 1992, and this fact is mentioned

25 there. Find my diary, look at my diary, and I'm sure you'll find it

Page 4601

1 there. Here, you are right, it doesn't say that, but it does say that in

2 my diary.

3 Q. And, of course, the people -- the person that you mention as

4 having stopped the situation was either those persons mentioned in the

5 paragraph there at line 6. There's two names mentioned there, because I

6 don't want to identify the names, in view of the protective measures.

7 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Okay. So you agree with me you don't mention Rasula there

9 either.

10 A. It is correct. I didn't mention him.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Now, Your Honour, I note the time, and I can

12 indicate I've dealt with that topic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 Let's just have a -- have you any idea how much more time you

15 would need, Ms. Loukas?

16 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, in view of the tendency the

17 witness has to sometimes not answer the question that you're asking and

18 to go into other detail, I couldn't confirm a precise time at this point,

19 but I'm certain we'll finish today.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because the next break will be a bit longer

21 because for all kind of technical issues, like redactions and other

22 matters.

23 So we'll resume at 1.00, and if you could finish by today.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until 1.00.

Page 4602

1 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, before I give you the opportunity to

4 resume your cross-examination, I have to correct in a technical way some

5 of the language I used this morning.

6 When I said "partially granted your motion," of course the motion

7 was denied, but what I had in mind was that the schedule then indicated

8 was a schedule which, I'm fully aware, not as you wished, but at least to

9 some extent meets some of the concerns of the Defence. But just in order

10 to avoid confusion, the motion was denied, but there was -- yes, please

11 proceed.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. And I'm grateful for the

13 correction to the record.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

15 Oh, yes, and I have -- the Judges would have a few questions for

16 the witness, unless you put them to the witness. So if there would

17 remain another 10 to 15 minutes for us, that would be fine; we could then

18 excuse this witness. So let's try to proceed as efficiently as possible.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I appreciate that, Your Honour.

21 Of course, as I indicated previously, the timing is not entirely

22 in my hands, but we'll just see where we go from here.

23 Q. Now, Witness, I just want to take you to paragraph -- the

24 paragraphs from 11 to 13 of your statement. If you could just turn to

25 those paragraphs.

Page 4603

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you indicate in paragraph 13 -- you name a number of names

3 in paragraph 13. Are you uncomfortable about being asked about one of

4 those names in public session, and would you prefer to go into private

5 session?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That is, yes, you would prefer to go into private session or yes,

8 you're happy to stay in public session?

9 A. Yes. Because those names have already been mentioned in my

10 earlier testimonies.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And I do think that they have no specific relation

12 with this witness, so therefore please -- we can proceed, Ms. Loukas.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you.

14 Your Honour, I just noticed -- noted the reaction of the witness

15 during the evidence in chief, and I'm very anxious to ensure that this

16 aspect does not recur.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MS. LOUKAS:

19 Q. Now, the names mentioned there --

20 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour. I apologise for stepping up.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. TIEGER: And maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I understood the

23 witness to indicate that he would prefer to go into private session for

24 the reason given, not --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think he said these names were mentioned already,

Page 4604

1 previously, so I thought -- but let's just check.

2 Witness, could you tell us --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. These

4 names were mentioned in my earlier testimonies, so if they are mentioned,

5 then ...

6 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you then do not mind if we continue

7 in open session, especially since, as far as I understand, you know these

8 names, you know who these people are, but they have no direct link, no

9 personal link with you at special events; is that correct?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They don't have any direct

11 connection with me, except for some other names that were already

12 mentioned earlier in my earlier testimonies, so it is easy to link things

13 up, to put two and two together.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as I --

15 Ms. Loukas, I think we could continue in open session, but as

16 soon as we reach a point where a specific event is the subject of the

17 testimony which could link this witness to other persons which are, I

18 would say, of -- I take it that these people are notoriously known in the

19 Sanski Most area by anyone, so therefore we could continue in open

20 session. But I will keep a close eye on it, and if you would do the

21 same.

22 Please proceed.

23 MS. LOUKAS: I'm about to mention a name straight away, Your

24 Honour. That's why I mentioned the matter, for abundant caution.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.