Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5384

1 Friday, 3 September 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you

7 please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, good morning. Case Number

9 IT-00-39-T, The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

11 Mr. Crncalo, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound which

12 the solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your

13 testimony. Yes.

14 Mr. Stewart, are you ready to continue the cross-examination?

15 MR. STEWART: We notice there's a discrepancy on the transcript.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, Mr. Stewart.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you use your microphone, we could hear you.

18 MR. STEWART: Oh, I'm so sorry, Your Honour.

19 Your Honour, good morning. My apologies. I was just grabbing

20 hold of some headphones. We notice there's a discrepancy on the

21 transcript against the time 9.03, it says upon commencing at 9.01, so

22 something's mechanically gone wrong there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It should be both 9.00.

24 MR. STEWART: That's another issue. I was thinking to the

25 mechanical question.

Page 5385

1 JUDGE ORIE: I just took the opportunity to draw your attention to

2 that.

3 MR. STEWART: No further observations, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

8 Q. Mr. Crncalo, immediately before the adjournment yesterday, I had

9 put it to you that when you were arrested as you had described in your

10 evidence, that in fact your rifle, your hunting rifle, was not leaning

11 against the door of your house but that you were, in fact, in the street

12 carrying your rifle. Thinking back to those events, is it not correct

13 that you were actually holding your rifle at the time?

14 A. My rifle was leaning against the wall of the house.

15 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be something wrong with the sound

16 Mr. Crncalo receives. Is it now better, Mr. Crncalo?


18 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever there's any problem, please tell me.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

20 MR. STEWART: Do I understand Mr. Crncalo didn't get --

21 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you didn't get my full question? Because you seem to

22 have got it and answered it. You got my full question and answered: "My

23 rifle was leaning against the wall of the house." Is that right?

24 A. Not against the door, against the wall of the house.

25 Q. Yes, all right. You said in your statement at paragraph

Page 5386

1 24 -- sorry, 26, you say that, "Ten days after my arrest, Serbs started a

2 campaign to have all non-Serbs leave the local Pale Municipality." And

3 you say: "This was accomplished by designated Serbs coming to my

4 community and telling us that it was better for us to leave now in peace

5 rather than staying and suffering trouble later." The translation that

6 you will now be hearing is back into translation into your own language.

7 "Accomplished by designated Serbs," what do you mean by that? Designated

8 in what sense?

9 A. As far as I see it, they were activists belonging to some party,

10 probably the SDS. And they were sent to exert propaganda and force us or

11 prevail upon us to leave our houses.

12 Q. So when you say "probably" -- you say, "belonging to some party,

13 probably the SDS," that suggests that you don't actually know, that that's

14 your own speculation. Is that right?

15 JUDGE ORIE: There still seems to be problems with the sound. The

16 problem is, Mr. Crncalo, that --

17 THE WITNESS: [No Interpretation]

18 When I'm speaking, I can hear my own voice echoing back at me.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, I do understand that you do not receive

20 full translation. Is that correct? [German spoken]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear the interpretation fully,

22 but I have an echo, and I can hear my own voice when I'm speaking. It

23 echoes back at me.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a translation matter, but it's a rather

25 technical matter.

Page 5387

1 Could we ask the assistance of the technicians to see that we can

2 get rid of this echo. We wait for the arrival of a technician to...

3 May I ask if the technician thinks that the matter has been

4 solved -- no, he's -- somebody's arriving. It's a matter of echo if the

5 witness himself speaks, so perhaps you could...

6 Mr. Crncalo, could you please now speak a few words and see

7 whether the echo is gone.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can check. Yes, I think it's

9 all right now.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I see you're nodding and everything's fine.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

12 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Crncalo, just going back to immediately before your arrest,

14 there was a well-publicised incident in Sarajevo, wasn't there, on the 1st

15 of March 1992 when members of a Muslim organisation known as the

16 Green Berets attacked a wedding party, and the Serb groom was killed? Do

17 you remember that?

18 A. Yes, I do remember that from the media, that that happened.

19 Q. And that contributed or caused a significant rise of tension,

20 didn't it, in Pale, disregarding anywhere else?

21 A. The matter was discussed and talked about, and as far as tensions

22 are concerned, tensions among the people, both ethnic groups living in

23 Pale, they didn't happen with respect to that event.

24 Q. You say that event didn't contribute to any rise of tension in

25 Pale?

Page 5388

1 A. I wasn't able to feel that, that that was it. Probably I would

2 have noticed had it been the case.

3 Q. Do you recall that after that event, and I'm talking now about the

4 period shortly after, in March or April 1992, the same organisation, the

5 Green Berets, stopped buses coming into -- going into Sarajevo from Pale

6 and would take money and documents from Serb passengers and physically

7 harass them? Do you recall anything about that?

8 A. At that time, I didn't leave Pale either to go to Sarajevo, and I

9 can't answer that. I can't really say how it is exactly. I can't confirm

10 that.

11 Q. I think what I asked you was whether you recall that. Are you

12 saying that at the time you didn't know anything about such matters?

13 A. There were checkpoints towards Sarajevo and towards Pale. But I

14 myself didn't see what those people at the checkpoint in Sarajevo did. I

15 didn't go there, so I can't say.

16 Q. Were you aware that they were what might be rather crudely refer

17 to as "Muslim checkpoints"?

18 A. Yes, they were.

19 Q. And do you recall that on the 4th of April, the village of

20 Lapisnica, which is a mainly Serb -- was a mainly Serb village was

21 attacked by the Green Berets?

22 A. I'm not aware of that, but I do know where Lapisnica is, I know

23 that very well, and I know who lives there.

24 Q. How far is it from the centre of Pale?

25 A. It's closer to Sarajevo than it is to Pale.

Page 5389

1 Q. Did that lead -- that incident, did that lead to the SJB, the

2 public security service, setting up barricades?

3 A. Which public security service are you thinking of?

4 Q. Well, it's -- excuse me.

5 A. Public security station.

6 Q. Yes, public security station. Mr. Crncalo, that's what I'm

7 talking about. So the answer to the question -- well, my question was:

8 "Did that incident lead to the public security station setting up

9 barricades"?

10 A. The public security service at the Pale Municipality, is that what

11 you're referring to, or are you referring to some other municipality?

12 Q. I'm referring to the Pale Municipality.

13 A. This was -- or rather, Lapisnica is a village closer to Sarajevo

14 than it is to Pale, so I really don't know the arrival of the checkpoint,

15 the barricade. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Well, let me be the one to put the questions to you, then. Do you

17 know of any public security station, from wherever, setting up barricades

18 after that incident between Pale and Sarajevo?

19 A. I know about the checkpoints at Pale, but I wasn't able to move

20 around there. As for some barricades, such as was shown on television

21 when Sarajevo was cut across with barricades, I don't know that anything

22 like that happened or was set up in the Pale Municipality.

23 Q. So when do you say checkpoints -- you say you know about

24 checkpoints at Pale. When do you say that checkpoints were first set up

25 in Pale?

Page 5390

1 A. I can't give you an exact date.

2 Q. Well, give as good a date as you can give, then please,

3 Mr. Crncalo.

4 A. At the beginning of April, these, or rather the checkpoints

5 started.

6 Q. Where did they start?

7 A. I said yesterday that in front of a tunnel called Stambolcici

8 tunnel that that's where I saw it. Then I saw them near the Famos

9 company. Then I saw another one a little before you get to the railway

10 station at a junction, somewhere there. I know about those checkpoints.

11 Q. And who set up these checkpoints?

12 A. They were set up by the army, the soldiers that were in Pale at

13 the time.

14 Q. By "the army," you mean the JNA?

15 A. They didn't have the insignia of the Yugoslav People's Army.

16 Q. Which army do you mean? You said "the army."

17 A. Yes, I did say "the army." The Army of Republika Srpska.

18 Q. The Army of Republika Srpska didn't exist at that time,

19 Mr. Crncalo, did it?

20 A. Well, I know it didn't exist, but you could see that they

21 were -- that those soldiers belonged to - or let me put it this way - to

22 the SDS party.

23 Q. And how could you see that?

24 A. Well, I could see that on the basis of a statement made by

25 Mr. Karadzic when he encouraged his people and said that the army was with

Page 5391

1 the Serbs and that they shouldn't be afraid of anything.

2 Q. Which army did you understand Mr. Karadzic was referring to, then?

3 That would have been the JNA, wouldn't it?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Mr. Crncalo, on the 4th of June 1992, there was an attack by

6 Muslims on a convoy of soldiers in the -- in Zepa near to Pale, wasn't

7 there?

8 A. Well, Zepa isn't really near Pale. Zepa is near Sokolac and

9 Han Pijesak.

10 Q. All right. How far from Pale is Zepa?

11 A. I never went into Zepa. Probably about 50 kilometres, about 50

12 kilometres.

13 Q. And about 45 or about 45 soldiers were killed by Muslims in that

14 attack, weren't they?

15 A. I don't know the number. I don't know how many people were

16 killed, those young men who were Serbs from Pale. But I do know that the

17 number was quite high.

18 Q. Well, you're quite right. They were Serbs from Pale. And do you

19 know that an agreement -- say if you don't know anything about this, but

20 do you know that an agreement had been reached with the Muslims for safe

21 passage of that convoy, and that agreement was violated?

22 A. I don't know about that agreement. But I do know that there was

23 fighting at Zepa.

24 Q. And those killed were entirely or very largely from Pale, weren't

25 they?

Page 5392

1 A. Yes, they were. And if you like, I can comment on that. The

2 statement of a mother and the behaviour of a woman when her husband was

3 killed at Zepa and the mother whose son was killed at Zepa, I can tell you

4 about that if you want me to.

5 Q. I think, Mr. Crncalo, we can all sympathise and understand, and I

6 think imagine what statements would be made by grieving mothers and wives.

7 And while recognising it, I think we can move on to specific questions.

8 Mr. Crncalo, that incident gave rise to an enormous increase in

9 tension as between Serbs and Muslims in Pale, didn't it?

10 A. Yes, that's right. And times were most difficult then.

11 Q. And another reason times were most difficult was that there had by

12 that time been a very large wave of Serb refugees arriving in Pale from

13 Sarajevo, hadn't there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when I say "large," something of the order of 30.000. That's

16 right, isn't it?

17 A. Well, there was a population from outside -- they were all coming

18 in, a big flow coming in. Now, the exact number, I really can't say. I

19 didn't -- I wasn't able to learn about that, nor was I able to see it. I

20 couldn't see all the people coming into Pale, where they were put up, how

21 they were accommodated, until we left -- well, I don't know. But you

22 could see that there were a lot of people, too many people in Pale, coming

23 in.

24 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I certainly don't want to unrealistically press you

25 to any sort of head count. That simply wouldn't be fair or realistic.

Page 5393

1 What I'm inviting you, therefore, to do is to confirm that a figure of

2 30.000, that's a very large number, but that's consistent with what you

3 were able to observe at that time in Pale, isn't it?

4 A. I've already said that the inflow of populace was great.

5 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I'm going to invite you, please, to try not to be

6 tempted to refer back to what you've already said and look at the

7 particular question I'm asking. Is a figure of 30.000 consistent with

8 what you were able to observe at that time in Pale?

9 A. I'm under oath here to tell the truth, and I'm telling you the

10 truth.

11 Q. What's the answer --

12 A. I can't give you an exact figure.

13 Q. That's not my question, Mr. Crncalo.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, what Mr. Stewart would like to know from

15 you is the following. He said 30.000. You said a big flow. And he would

16 like to know whether what you call a big flow could be approximately

17 30.000, or that you would say no, it was far less or far more. He just

18 wants to compare what you understand by a big flow and whether that would

19 be contradicted by the 30.000 or that you say, well, it could have been

20 30.000. That's the only thing he would like to know.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked yesterday how many

22 inhabitants the Municipality of Pale had, and I said about 15.000. Now

23 I'm thinking about this. Did the population double after the arrival of

24 these new people? I'm wondering. And I'm turning the film back in my

25 mind to the image of that municipality, what it looked like at the time.

Page 5394

1 Well, I don't think that it was 30.000 because 30.000 is a lot, a

2 great deal, a great deal of people. But the frequency of people coming in

3 was great. Now, 30.000 seems to me, I'm trying to see how many people

4 15.000 is, and then when you ask me about 30.000, I don't think I can

5 agree to a figure of 30.000. It seems too much.

6 MR. STEWART: All right.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart --

8 MR. STEWART: I'm satisfied, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you at this very moment. Are

10 we listening to background information, are we listening to questions and

11 answers about credibility of the witness, or are we listening to evidence

12 relating to justification of responses if such things happened as you put

13 it to Mr. Crncalo? It's a bit unclear for the Chamber, and as I said

14 yesterday it's also a bit unclear whether so much time spent on whether a

15 big flow could be 30.000 or perhaps 20.000 or 40.000 is of that relevance

16 for what is this case about. And I also wondered to what extent, and I'm

17 addressing you, Mr. Hannis, at this moment, and I apologise

18 for -- Mr. Hannis, what's the position of the Prosecution in relation to,

19 first of all, incidents -- well, let's say initiated or caused by Muslim

20 armed forces; that's one. Whether that took place. And the second one,

21 what that would mean for your case?

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if it's in the nature of tu quoque as

23 being a justification for the actions that the Serb take, yes, we would

24 object to that. But I understood that perhaps Mr. Stewart was asking

25 those kind of questions of this witness just to try to establish what

Page 5395












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 5396

1 level of awareness he had about events in general and happening in his

2 area, and therefore going to his credibility. So --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's not entirely clear to me whether it's a

4 credibility issue or whether it's a background issue. Mr. Stewart, could

5 you give a clue to the Chamber?

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, really -- I suggest that sometimes it

7 would be, with respect, we would proceed much better if the Trial Chamber

8 could simply wait to see where these questions lead, and then it would

9 quickly become apparent. So far as the numbers are concerned, I entirely

10 accept what Your Honour has said. It doesn't really matter for these

11 purposes whether it's 20.000, 30.000, or 40.000. But it's a reasonable

12 starting question to ask the witness whether he agrees that it's

13 consistent with the figure which I have been given on my instructions as

14 to the figure. And I was then immediately going on in the light of the

15 exchange, and it's not that easy to get a straight answer on that from the

16 witness, was simply going on to say, all right, Mr. Crncalo, can we agree

17 it was many, many thousands, and that is enough. But actually to answer

18 Your Honour's question as will become apparent, this is important lead-in

19 information to an important point which is exactly what cross-examination

20 and any examination of a witness should involve.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps -- let me say the following. You say

22 these are important points; fine, the Chamber accepts that. The quicker

23 you are to come to important points, the -- let me say, the quicker you

24 come to the importance of the point, the better it is.

25 Please proceed.

Page 5397

1 MR. STEWART: I think the transcript will show, Your Honour, that

2 the Defence has proceeded as quickly as could reasonable be --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's stop the discussions. I hope you got the

4 message. I also understand that you do not fully agree. Let's proceed.

5 MR. STEWART: I'll leave others to judge in the end, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Crncalo, can we, as I think you probably heard that, we can

7 agree many, many thousands of refugees came into Pale from Sarajevo,

8 didn't they?

9 A. I would agree with that. As to the number that you mentioned,

10 that's a very large figure.

11 Q. We're not going over that ground again, Mr. Crncalo.

12 The numbers and the heightened tensions and the incident which

13 happened in Zepa led, among other things, to a very high feeling of

14 insecurity among the Muslim population in Pale, didn't it?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. And the Muslim population were so concerned about their position

17 in the light of the influx of refugees from Sarajevo and the increase in

18 tensions that they, through their representatives, made a request that

19 arrangements should be made to enable Muslims to leave Pale, didn't they?

20 A. If anyone should be aware of such requests, I should be aware of

21 it. I don't think there was ever any such request.

22 Q. So you know nothing, do you, about a request on the basis of which

23 on the 18th of June 1992 the Municipal Assembly of Pale issued a direction

24 relating to change of residence of Muslims and Croat nationals? So you

25 know nothing about that?

Page 5398

1 A. If you think that that was some sort of a solution, I'm not aware

2 of that because I went to the president of the municipality on a number of

3 occasions and asked for the possibility of staying in Pale.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, the question was whether you knew about

5 a request on the basis of which the municipal assembly issued a direction

6 relating to a change. So what Mr. Stewart puts to you is that there was a

7 decision taken on the 18th of June as a consequence of a request. Are you

8 aware of such a request, whether you made that request or anyone else made

9 that request? Are you aware of it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, Ms. Cmeric suggests that the answer

13 which appears in the English version of the transcript as, "If you think

14 that was some sort of a solution," that, in fact, the witness said

15 something which should be translated: "If you think that was some sort of

16 municipal decision." There seems to be quite a discrepancy there. I

17 don't know the answer because I simply raise the question as suggested to

18 me by Ms. Cmeric.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, we might have a translation problem at

20 this moment. When you said: "If you think that that was some sort of..."

21 And then it's unclear what you then said. And you then continued: "I'm

22 not aware of that because I went to the president," et cetera. What did

23 you say when you said, "If you think that was some sort of ..."? Could

24 you please repeat that.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat that. I was never in a

Page 5399

1 position to know what the municipal organs wanted or to know what their

2 intentions were. With certain people, I went to ask the municipality to

3 remain in the Municipality of Pale. As to the decisions they adopted on

4 their own as to what they would do with us, the Muslims, I knew nothing

5 about this. It was only when we had to sit and get into the buses and go

6 to Sarajevo that things were clear to me. It was clear that we had to

7 change our place of residence.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand your answer to be that you

9 do not know about the decision, and you do not know about a request

10 related to that decision. Is that correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I simply then comment -- I hope

13 Your Honour will see the importance of the point we were leading up to.

14 But so far as this witness is concerned, in light of his saying that he

15 knows nothing about this, I don't need any -- that in fact shouldn't --

16 it's not my obligation to put any more to this witness in relation to that

17 matter because he said he doesn't know, so I leave that topic.

18 Q. Except to this extent, Mr. Crncalo, that the detailed arrangements

19 that were then made and posted in a way that you described yesterday with

20 a notice being pinned up in Pale, were arrangements for buses to go on

21 particular days from particular places, and those were practical

22 arrangements to implement the understood procedure that a significant

23 number of Muslims were going to leave Pale? That's right, isn't it?

24 A. The question isn't clear to me.

25 Q. Sorry. It became a rather long question, Mr. Crncalo. I

Page 5400

1 apologise for that.

2 You described yesterday how a notice was put up, a written notice

3 concerning Muslims leaving Pale. You remember that. What I'm saying to

4 you is that as in response to a request made in some form or another by

5 Muslim representatives and an agreement between Serbs and Muslims, that

6 Muslims could and in many cases wanted to leave Pale, what was posted up

7 included that such and such a bus would be going on such and such a day

8 from such and such a place, that such and such another bus would be going

9 on such and such day from such and such a place. That was included in

10 that written notice, wasn't it?

11 A. It was.

12 Q. And whatever the background, and we've heard a lot about the

13 background, it was a fact, wasn't it, that at that time a significant

14 number of Muslims did want to leave Pale?

15 A. Can I answer that question?

16 Q. That's why I asked it, Mr. Crncalo. So please do.

17 A. A minute ago, you put an ambiguous question to me. And my answer

18 was incorrect.

19 Q. Well, I apologise for any ambiguity, Mr. Crncalo. If you want

20 clarification of any question at any time, please don't hesitate to say

21 so. But please do take the opportunity of clarifying any answer.

22 A. I answered the previous question incorrectly.

23 Q. Please, just make it clear which question and which answer you

24 would wish to correct, Mr. Crncalo.

25 A. You mentioned an agreement between the Muslims and the Serbs for

Page 5401

1 the Muslims to leave Pale voluntarily, and you also mentioned buses. And

2 when I said yes, I was thinking of the buses when they arrived. There was

3 no agreement. We were forced to leave Pale. Please, don't make me answer

4 incorrectly.

5 Q. Let me --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, the last question was, as a matter of

7 fact, whether there were many Muslims who wanted to leave Pale at that

8 time.

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think he's referring to the question

10 before that, which began on page 15, near the end, and went on for some

11 time.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that he refers to that. But

13 I'd like him to answer the last question after he made the correction. If

14 you would answer the question put to you last by Mr. Stewart, and that was

15 whatever the background was about the buses and whatever happened, is it

16 true that at that time there was a considerable number of Muslims that

17 wanted to leave Pale?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. None of us wanted

19 to leave.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


22 Q. Mr. Crncalo, this I've put to you as perhaps clarifying the

23 position: You had not wanted the situation which had arisen; nobody

24 wanted that situation with the enormous influx of refugees from Sarajevo,

25 the violence that had occurred. You had not wanted that situation. But

Page 5402

1 given the situation that you had got at the end of June and the beginning

2 of July, it was a fact, wasn't it, that at that point a large number of

3 Muslims wanted to leave Pale?

4 A. Well, I have to repeat this a number of times. None of us wanted

5 to leave our homes, our property and to go out into the world like a

6 beggar. But we had to.

7 Q. A large number of Muslims preferred to leave Pale at the beginning

8 of July 1992 to staying there, didn't they?

9 A. We didn't want to leave.

10 Q. That wasn't my question, Mr. Crncalo. A large number of Serbs,

11 given the situation they were in at the end of June, beginning of July, of

12 the two choices to stay in Pale and leave Pale, a large number of

13 Muslims -- sorry, did I have a slip of the tongue? A large number of

14 Muslims preferred the choice of leaving Pale, didn't they?

15 A. No one wanted to leave their homes on a voluntary basis.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think I've put it enough times, and

17 the Trial Chamber can see clearly where we've got to, I hope.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, it's quite clear. I was already asking

19 myself whether the question was not already answered three or four times.

20 MR. STEWART: It wasn't answered, Your Honour, but the position is

21 clear.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The position is quite clear, Mr. Stewart. And one of

23 the problems, of course, is if you say "under those circumstances," it

24 very much depends on what is included in those circumstances. If you

25 would include -- let's just assume that there were threats that bad things

Page 5403

1 would happen if they would stay, then of course there comes a certain

2 point when you move your feet towards the buses. And if you say that is

3 included in those circumstances, then of course the preference would be to

4 go to the bus and not stay. But that's of courses the imprecision and

5 that's of course the whole problem of these kind of questions, that it

6 does not always clarify the issue. So perhaps it better to have waited

7 with these comments until after the questions had been answered.

8 MR. STEWART: Can I say, Your Honour, I can't see how counsel can

9 do anything else when referring to the circumstances. The witness was in

10 Pale, I wasn't.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not further discuss it at this moment in the

12 presence of the witness. I gave a few comments. If there's any need to

13 further discuss that, we could do that at a later stage. And then I might

14 be clearer in my explanation. But let's now move on to the next subject.


16 Q. And what happened, Mr. Crncalo, was that the municipal authorities

17 did give support and cooperation to enable a large number of Muslims to

18 leave Pale safely, didn't they?

19 A. They did.

20 Q. And they did, those Muslims, they did leave Pale safely, didn't

21 they?

22 A. We were taken out. We didn't go away voluntarily. We were

23 escorted by the police and the army to the demarcation line of the

24 conflict area.

25 Q. My question was, I put it to you, that they did leave Pale safely,

Page 5404

1 didn't they? And can you confirm that the answer to that question is yes,

2 they did leave Pale safely?

3 A. I think I have answered your question, and I said that we went

4 under escort of men from the Municipality of Pale. We went as far as the

5 demarcation line.

6 Q. Did any of the Muslims leaving Pale come to any physical harm by

7 the time they reached the demarcation line?

8 A. I'm not aware of that. This is what I can say: I think that we

9 went there without suffering any injuries.

10 Q. So to ask you a couple of relatively short points, Mr. Crncalo, in

11 your statement at paragraph 28, you refer to the visit of

12 Mr. Nikola Koljevic, and you say "after approximately 10 minutes, Nikola

13 Koljevic accompanied by two active police" - there's a bit of tautology

14 there - "FNU Stanar and FNU Jovicic arrived." Can you confirm that

15 Mr. Stana and Mr. Jovicic, they were not part of Mr. Koljevic's personal

16 entourage, were they?

17 A. I think that they were security for him, and they were active

18 policemen in the Pale police station.

19 Q. He had his own security, didn't he? Quite separately from those

20 men, Mr. Koljevic?

21 A. I don't know about that.

22 Q. Well, you were there, weren't you?

23 A. I was.

24 Q. Another point, you say in your statement, paragraph 44, you

25 learned that the three mosques in the Pale area were destroyed. There

Page 5405

1 were, in fact, only two mosques in Pale, weren't there? One at Podvitez

2 and one at, I think it's Praca. Is that right?

3 A. There was one mosque in Praca, another in Podvitez, and a third in

4 Bogovici. All three mosques were destroyed. The one in Podvitez, a

5 village near Pale, there was a cemetery that was levelled to the ground

6 there. And there are no signs indicating that people were once buried

7 there.

8 Q. I was going to look at the transcript to remind myself of the name

9 of that other village, but it doesn't appear at the moment on the

10 transcript. But -- what's it called?

11 A. Bogovici.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Crncalo. How far is that from the centre

13 of Pale?

14 A. Well, about 20 kilometres.

15 Q. In paragraph 45 of your statement, you refer to a number of Muslim

16 families you say who refused to leave the Pale area July 1992 and were

17 killed, and then you give a list of individuals. Do you have first-hand

18 knowledge of any of those people being killed?

19 A. I have.

20 Q. All of them or only some of them? And if so, which ones?

21 A. Those who didn't want to go with us from the Municipality of Pale,

22 I've provided their names, and they have been recorded. They didn't want

23 to leave, but they were all killed, not just some of them. But all of

24 those who remained were killed.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart --

Page 5406

1 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- Would you please seek clarification whether the

3 witness understands exactly first-hand --

4 MR. STEWART: I was about to, Your Honour.

5 Q. Did you personally witness the killing of any of those

6 people -- you might want to look at paragraph 45 or be given paragraph

7 45 of your statement. I think I must put the question to you again,

8 Mr. Crncalo. It seemed to have gone too quickly to get picked up.

9 Actually it was one of my simpler questions, Mr. Crncalo. Now, do

10 you see paragraph 45? It's the last paragraph in your statement. Do you

11 see that?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Did you personally witness the killing of any of the people whom

14 you mention there?

15 A. In my statement, you yourself should be able to see that I wasn't

16 in a position to see this, to witness this. These people stayed on, and I

17 left. So I couldn't see them, I couldn't personally witness them being

18 killed.

19 Q. So what's the source of your information?

20 A. When the bodies were exhumed, I attended the burials. After they

21 had been exhumed, I attended the burials. That's the source of my

22 information. I can mention the names of the people.

23 Q. So Ziba Karic, for example, what do you specifically know about

24 the death of Ziba Karic?

25 A. About the death of Ziba Karic, I don't know anything. But she is

Page 5407












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 5408

1 not alive any more.

2 Q. We can agree about that, Mr. Crncalo; she's not alive any more.

3 But she died of natural causes after the war, didn't she? Or don't you

4 know?

5 A. She wasn't alive when the war ended.

6 Q. Did she die of natural causes, or don't you know?

7 A. Well, I can provide you a direct answer.

8 Q. Please.

9 A. About her. I don't know exactly what she died of in her case. I

10 don't know exactly how Ziba Karic died. As for the others, I do.

11 Q. Let's be just clear about that, then, Mr. Crncalo. Your evidence

12 which is here in this statement that "I know that some Muslim families who

13 refused to leave the Pale area in July 1992 were killed." Then goes on

14 specifically to name individuals included in that category among whom

15 Ziba Karic. So your statement is very clear. You are saying in your

16 statement, in accordance with your solemn declaration you are telling this

17 Trial Chamber that Ziba Karic was killed. But it is now clear, isn't it,

18 that you simply do not know whether that is true or not, do you?

19 A. As for the person called Ziba Karic, I don't know exactly what

20 happened to her. She wasn't alive when the war ended. But I know about

21 the other people.

22 Q. So do you accept -- this is the last question I need to put to you

23 on this, Mr. Crncalo. Do you accept that you must withdraw your evidence

24 there in paragraph 45 in relation to Ziba Karic?

25 A. I don't accept that. I can't withdraw what I said there.

Page 5409

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, in your statement you say Ziba Karic was

2 killed. You just told us that you do not know how she died. Mr. Stewart

3 is asking you whether you agree that your statement is, in respect of her,

4 incorrect and should be withdrawn because you cannot confirm that she was

5 killed; the only thing you know is that, at least it's what you told us,

6 that she died. Is that correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say she died.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If someone is not alive any more, then they die,

9 isn't it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this, if I may be

11 allowed to answer.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first go to you said in your statement she was

13 killed, which means that her death was caused by someone else. Now you

14 tell us that you do not know how she died, which leaves it open that she

15 died by natural causes. Therefore, Mr. Stewart seeks confirmation that

16 your statement is incorrect in this respect since you do not know whether

17 her death was caused by another person or whether she died for other -- by

18 other causes. Do you agree with me on that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that concludes my cross-examination.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

23 Is there any need for further questions to the witness,

24 Mr. Hannis?

25 MR. HANNIS: Just one or two questions, Your Honour.

Page 5410

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Hannis:

3 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you were being asked by Mr. Stewart about when you

4 left Pale. And I think the two of you were having a difficult time

5 getting that question answered. You said you had two choices. But in

6 spite of the fact that you did not want to leave Pale, you did get on the

7 bus. Correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And Mr. Stewart said you had two choices. Perhaps if I phrase

10 those two choices to you in a different way, it might be easier to answer.

11 Do you see your two choices as leaving Pale alive on the one hand or

12 staying and being killed as your two choices?

13 A. When we saw what the situation was and what could happen, we all

14 decided to save our lives and to leave our property to its fate.

15 MR. HANNIS: May I have one moment, Your Honour.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. HANNIS: That's all I have, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

19 Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I understood you

23 correctly, you said that when you were about to leave Pale, you signed

24 some papers to the effect that you were exchanging your property for a

25 property in Sarajevo. Is that correct?

Page 5411

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Now, once you were in Sarajevo,

3 were you able to take possession of that property?

4 A. No, I was not able to take possession because the premise, the

5 house, was half destroyed by a shell that fell on it.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the papers were in

7 order, were they not?

8 A. Yes, they were. The papers were as they were. But I said

9 yesterday that I signed them in the manner in which I had to sign them.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. Now, let's move

11 on to another area and subject if we may. In your statement on several

12 occasions, you make a distinction between what you call the Chetniks and

13 the Serbs. If I understand you correctly, do you wish to say when you use

14 the word "Chetnik" that you're referring to the members of the Radical

15 Party alone?

16 A. Yes, just members of the Radical Party; not all Serbs are

17 Chetniks.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. What you

19 mentioned as being the Red Berets, are you able to tell us who they were

20 under?

21 A. Mr. Malko Koroman said that he couldn't keep the Red Berets under

22 his control for long. So that statement of mine, when I said that, that

23 could mean that Malko Koroman could have been in charge of the Red Berets

24 himself.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] When you said with respect to

Page 5412

1 Mr. Koroman, and I'm quoting you [In English], "that is not able to afford

2 the security of the Muslim community." [Interpretation] Did you gain the

3 impression that this would make you leave or that the situation was beyond

4 his power?

5 A. Well, I can't say exactly. I can't know what was happening in

6 those structures exactly. My vision was as it was, and his statement that

7 he wasn't able to guarantee our safety and security as free citizens was

8 probably an incentive on his part to persuade us to leave our houses.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, Mr. Kovacevic, I

10 think, was the president of the municipality, was he not?

11 A. Yes, that's right. At the beginning, it was Slobodan Kovacevic.

12 Later on, he was replaced by Starcevic. I don't know his first name, but

13 I do know Kovacevic.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But Mr. Kovacevic was a member of

15 the SDS party, was he not?

16 A. Possibly he was. I don't know who was a member of the party, who

17 all the members were. But as the SDS party was the main party in Pale,

18 then I assume that's correct.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, when you say,

20 and I'm quoting again [In English], "the president of the municipality did

21 not believe that the Muslims were told to leave the city,"

22 [Interpretation] are you of the opinion that he was sincere in making that

23 statement?

24 A. Well, you know what the situation was like and what those

25 political leaders in our municipality behaved like. Everybody wanted to

Page 5413

1 leave a good impression on the population, the population that was

2 suffering at the time in difficult circumstances. They could say what

3 they wanted, but when they shifted us between one and the other for the

4 same issues and both were in charge, I think that you can conclude

5 yourself that they were just throwing the ball into the other person's

6 court and shifting us from one to the other and that we had to go.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But perhaps the

8 language you use in saying "did not believe," that phrase, that is an

9 observation of fact. It is the impression you gained, is it not?

10 A. Well, I don't think he was sincere in what he told us.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

12 Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I have one relatively simple question for you. In

14 the English version of your witness interview you gave to the high court

15 in Sarajevo, there appears a certain type Crncalo, but I was asking myself

16 whether it was Crncelo or Crncalo. Could you explain to us whether --

17 A. What it says on the screen now, that's my proper surname, the

18 correct way.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's your name --

20 A. With an A, not an E. It's Crncalo with an A, not an E.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But in your statement, and perhaps

22 I read to you the part that I'm referring to, is that: "I was not alone

23 with Radomir Kojic. There were other neighbours present. Rizat Smajic

24 Ferhat Hrvo, Tajib Crncelo, it says." Is that a mistake? Should that be

25 Crncalo as well or is there a person whose name is Tajib Crncelo?

Page 5414

1 A. It's my brother, Tajib Crncalo.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my next question would be cousins of

3 yours. There seemed perhaps to be some confusion. Are you aware of any

4 family member ever arrested for trading weapons or selling weapons or

5 buying weapons or illegal-weapon trade? So apart from the two names, are

6 you aware of any such arrest, well, let's say in that period 1991-1992?

7 A. I would probably have to have known -- have to know about that,

8 but I don't know. The two men that I mentioned yesterday, I didn't go

9 alone. I was with five other people to intervene with Malko Koroman to

10 release them from the police station. It wasn't only those two. There

11 were 19 other young -- there were 19 young men, including the two names I

12 gave yesterday. But for the unlawful sale of anything, whether cigarettes

13 or weapons, I don't know anything about that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Not at another moment, at another place?

15 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

17 The questions of the Bench, do they give any reason for the

18 parties to raise any additional questions?

19 MR. HANNIS: No additional questions, but the point you raised

20 about correcting the spelling.


22 MR. HANNIS: I have something to talk about, but we can talk about

23 that when the witness leaves.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I looked at the original, whether it was an A or an

25 E, I think thought it was an A, so therefore I thought it was incorrectly

Page 5415

1 transcribed to the English. I wouldn't say translated, but transcribed.

2 Mr. Crncalo, since you've answered all the questions put to you by

3 the parties and by the Bench, this concludes your evidence in this Court.

4 I'd like to thank you very much for coming and for answering the

5 questions, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you please escort the witness out

8 of the courtroom. Madam usher is trying to lead you to another door.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the point I wanted to raise, the name

11 Tajib Crncalo that you saw an E in one place instead of an A, his name

12 appears a second time in the statement spelled correctly. On the

13 following page, a few lines lower than it is on the preceding pages, right

14 after the name Fadil Dzaferagic. And I noted also that I think there are

15 two places where Malko Koroman's name is spelled Karaman, but I think it's

16 clear from the context that we're talking about the same person.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Hannis, I do understand that your next

18 witness will arrive only tomorrow and therefore could be examined not any

19 earlier than by next Monday.

20 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's also clear to the parties that we would sit next

22 week only for two days. That's Monday and Tuesday.

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Will it be one witness or ... ?

25 MR. HANNIS: We only have one witness scheduled. That's our last

Page 5416

1 viva voce witness from Sanski Most Municipality.


3 MR. HANNIS: I don't believe that he will take two full days. I

4 believe he will probably take more than one, but I don't believe he'll

5 take two.


7 MR. HANNIS: I can confer with Mr. Harmon to see if it were

8 possible to condense him to one day if that were better for the Court,

9 that one full day as opposed to one and a half.

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, not specifically. And apart from that, if you

11 say you do not see that his examination will take two full days, that

12 would include cross-examination?

13 MR. HANNIS: I believe his entire examination will not take two

14 full days.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, there's -- of course, the sooner the

16 witness could be excused, the better it is for him so he can return home.

17 But there's no specific interest of the Chamber to have him finish

18 by -- of course, if it can be done, it should be done.

19 Then we have on our programme I think at least the reading in of

20 92 bis summaries?

21 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We have a number -- I'm not sure

22 what the total number is that's prepared now that we could read in. I

23 don't know if the Court wanted today in terms of housekeeping matters also

24 to maybe address some things in connection with the exhibit list.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have drawn the attention of the parties to the

Page 5417

1 specific list made by Ms. Philpott showing only those exhibits that had

2 not yet been decided upon. And I think I asked the parties to prepare any

3 submissions or objections in relation to those exhibits.

4 We could start with it now. We could also have an early break and

5 do it after the break.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I request that we have an early

7 break because it also involves Ms. Loukas and I suggested to Ms. Loukas

8 that she should come along now and be available immediately after the

9 break.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That would be very practical. Would there be any

11 other issue the parties would like to raise after the break.

12 MR. HANNIS: I have one, Your Honour, I would like to bring to the

13 Court's attention. Before the recess, the Court asked us to reduce our

14 number of remaining 92 bis witnesses for the municipalities. I think we

15 had 113, and we were asked to reduce it to 61. We provisionally have a

16 list of 61. And in connection with that, since our project on agreed

17 facts from the municipalities is not working any more, I think we have to

18 revive our process for our submissions of the 92 bis materials, any

19 Defence objections, and the Court decisions on which witnesses' evidence

20 will be admitted that way, which ones will have to come from

21 cross-examination, et cetera. And we would like to discuss the schedule

22 in regard to that because we have some municipalities that we've already

23 begun where we have some of those witnesses pending.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Have you already discussed a proposed schedule with

25 the Defence?

Page 5418

1 MR. HANNIS: No, we haven't, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't it be, in order to avoid unnecessary time

3 used for that reason in Court, wouldn't it be a good idea that you would

4 give your proposals to the Defence, see in what respect there would be any

5 disagreement or any objection and then whether you can solve it. If not,

6 of course, the Chamber will decide upon it.

7 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn now, and we'll then continue

9 perhaps we take a bit more time for the break this time. After 40

10 minutes, that would be at 11.00 we'll resume, and we'll start with the

11 reading in the transcripts of 92 bis summaries, and we'll then deal with

12 the exhibits.

13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we start dealing with exhibits and reading

17 into the transcript of 92 bis summaries, I first want to revisit a matter

18 we dealt with just prior to the break, and that is the following: You

19 asked, Mr. Hannis, whether the Chamber had any preference for finishing

20 the next witness by Monday, and I said, no there's no specific reason why.

21 I am informed during the break that there is not only a preference, but

22 even a strong preference, to finish with the next witness next Monday.

23 And we are inquiring whether it would still be possible to sit a bit

24 longer on Monday in order not to cut the time for the parties because that

25 would perhaps be unreasonable. What I do know is that if we could not

Page 5419












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 5420

1 solve it in this way and if we would have to sit on Tuesday, that we could

2 not -- first of all, we would prefer not to sit on Tuesday but to finish

3 on Monday. And we could then not sit any longer than until 11.00, but

4 means that all together we would have approximately 5 and a half hours

5 available. So I would like to hear from the parties, first of all, how

6 much time was scheduled for those witnesses and whether the parties have

7 any problem in sitting even perhaps partly in the afternoon of next

8 Monday.

9 MR. HANNIS: As far as the schedule, Your Honour, there's no

10 problem with sitting further on Monday. I believe the witness was

11 scheduled for four hours of direct exam. And with our 60 per cent, that

12 would be 2.4 hours on top. But I hadn't a chance to speak with Mr. Harmon

13 during the break to see if he anticipates he can do his direct in less

14 time. But I think there's a possibility.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because if -- I don't know whether there's any

16 89(F) aspect involved.

17 MR. HANNIS: I think he was considering that, Your Honour. But I

18 didn't get to talk to him.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Under the present circumstances, we would certainly

20 not disencourage him to consider that. Because -- let's see what we can

21 do. But let's first hear from the Defence whether sitting in the

22 afternoon would be a major problem.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, absolutely no problem at all about

24 Your Honour's suggestion about Monday. In fact, that would in principle

25 be preferable to the Defence because it's always good to have a completely

Page 5421

1 clear day to work away from the Court. As far as scheduling, the timing

2 is concerned, obviously if Mr. Harmon is able to make any headway in

3 reduction from four hours, that will help. I think perhaps it's perhaps

4 worth mentioning, and this would apply generally as well, that the 60 per

5 cent guideline as I have a strong preference for calling it, Your Honour,

6 really has to be applied to the, if you like, the pre-89(F) estimate

7 because even if examination-in-chief is shortened by the 89(F) procedure,

8 clearly the same amount of material is presented for the Defence to deal

9 with. So the 60 per cent guideline has to be applied if you like to the

10 gross figure rather than the net figure.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I fully appreciate that under 89(F)

12 it's not exactly the same. There are two observations I would like to

13 make in this respect: First of all, that witnesses testifying under the

14 application of Rule 89(F) sometimes are asked questions which seems not to

15 be of such importance that it should be fully -- that the matter should be

16 fully revisited, of course filling in gaps, emphasising important matters,

17 it's not something the Chamber would object to. But sometimes we have

18 asked ourselves whether all the questions would fit into one of these

19 categories. That means additional information to what is already in the

20 statement or really to emphasise the importance of certain matters.

21 That's point one. That's the first observation.

22 Second observation is that until now, even under 89(F), but of

23 course if the time will be drastically reduced, that might be different,

24 but until now the Chamber never had to make any effort to remind the

25 Defence on the 60 per cent guidance. The Defence has always stayed within

Page 5422

1 those limits by itself.

2 Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we are going to begin by reading some

4 summaries of 92 bis witnesses. If I can have the Court's permission, I

5 think what I would like to do right now is I'll step out while

6 Mr. Fergal Gaynor begins to read the first summary and consult with

7 Mr. Harmon. Maybe I can report back to you upon my return about the

8 anticipated length of the direct exam.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the 92 bis summaries have been

10 provided to the translators?

11 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So that's available to the translators. Perhaps I

13 explain once more to the public why we do this exercise at all. There's

14 not much public at this moment. But we do it because the procedure under

15 Rule 92 bis under which written statements can be introduced into evidence

16 makes it unclear for the outside world what approximately has been

17 admitted into evidence, and therefore a short summary of what that

18 evidence is about is read in court in order to serve the best of the

19 ability of this Chamber the public character of the trial. Please

20 proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

21 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll begin with a Bratunac

22 witness, Witness 129, Dzevad Gusic.

23 Mr. Dzevad Gusic took over as president of the SDA in Bratunac on

24 20th March 1992. In this role, he met with leading members of the SDS

25 including the president of the SDS municipal board, Mr. Miroslav Deronjic.

Page 5423

1 Mr. Gusic describes the way in which nationalistic tensions

2 increased during 1992 in Bratunac. He states that nationalist meetings of

3 Serbs were held in cafes where Serbs would gather and sing Chetnik songs.

4 Furthermore, posters and slogans appeared on walls insulting Muslims and

5 promoting Serb nationalism. He recalls the comment of senior SDS official

6 that the Serbs were willing to use 200.000 of their own people "so that 2

7 million Muslims would disappear." He describes beatings of prominent

8 Muslims and the firing of automatic weapons during the night.

9 From late 1991, Mr. Gusic received information that the JNA and

10 the SDS were working together to arm the Serb civilians. By early 1992,

11 Mr. Gusic observed that his local Serb neighbours held automatic weapons

12 in their possession. And by this time, they were displaying their weapons

13 with a great degree of arrogance.

14 Mr. Gusic describes an incident when a unit of the JNA came from

15 Ljubovija, Serbia and demanded that the head of the National Defence,

16 Mr. Becirovic, hand over the files listing men eligible for mobilisation.

17 A crowd of between 2.000 and 4.000 people resisted the JNA's efforts to

18 obtain the files and eventually the JNA officers withdrew, having failed

19 to obtain the files.

20 He also refers to the ambush of a car containing four Muslims by

21 Serb gunmen in the village of Kravica in September 1991 when two Muslim

22 leaders were killed. Both the Serb leader Nikola Koljevic and high-level

23 leader of the SDA, Ejup Ganic, attended Bratunac city and assured the

24 local people that justice would be done. Following this joint assurance,

25 Koljevic travelled to Kravica and assured the local population of Serbs

Page 5424

1 that an investigation would not take place.

2 In late 1991, Mr. Gusic observed that the JNA had installed

3 artillery weapons and mortars in positions on the hills overlooking

4 Bratunac with the barrels facing towards the town. At this time,

5 Mr. Gusic received information that the JNA regulars were training local

6 Serb civilians in the village of Vranesevic. A meeting took place with

7 the JNA and the SDS where the issue of the JNA training local Serbs was

8 discussed. The JNA representatives provided vague responses to this

9 allegation, including the excuse that the unit conducting the training was

10 not under local control and had been brought in from outside the area.

11 Soon after the meeting with the JNA and SDS officials, a further

12 meeting was held with Miroslav Deronjic and his assistants. He demanded

13 that the police be divided because the Serb people felt that they were in

14 a minority and were under direct threat from the Muslims. He threatened

15 the Muslim representatives stating that if they did not comply "Muslims

16 would disappear." Deronjic stated that he was under the direct control of

17 Radovan Karadzic and that Karadzic was pressuring him to "get this

18 division underway."

19 Mr. Gusic spoke with SDS representatives on a daily basis during

20 his time in political office. The SDS representatives gave assurances

21 that everything was going to be fine. During these meetings, Deronjic

22 spoke about having regular meetings with Radovan Karadzic and attempted to

23 use this as a lever to ensure that the Muslims agreed to the SDS demands.

24 He used as an example the village of Janja in Bijeljina where Muslims had

25 accepted all Serb demands and no harm had subsequently come to them.

Page 5425

1 Mr. Gusic was personally threatened between 20th of March 1992

2 when he took over the Presidency of the SDA and 17th April 1992 when

3 Bratunac city was taken over. One evening, when Mr. Gusic left his house,

4 automatic fire passed over the roof of this house and he returned the fire

5 with one round from his pistol. A Serb, Tihomir Mrakic, told Mr. Gusic

6 that if it was known who fired the shot from Mr. Gusic's yard then it

7 would be "very bad for him." On another occasion when leaving his house,

8 a young Serb man pulled out a pistol and fired shots over Mr. Gusic's

9 head.

10 On 17th April 1992, Mr. Gusic observed that a Serb military unit

11 had arrived in the town and formed a guard around the Hotel Fontana. He

12 went to the police station and spoke to the chief of police, Senad Hodzic.

13 The president of the municipality, Nijaz Dubicic and professor of physics,

14 Numo Pleho, joined this meeting. Miroslav Deronjic came to the police

15 station and instructed the Muslim leaders to go to the Hotel Fontana ask

16 meet with the leadership of the Serb military unit. At the Hotel Fontana,

17 the Serb soldiers in JNA uniform stated that Bratunac was a Serb

18 municipality and that they were taking control. Mr. Gusic and the other

19 Muslim representatives were warned that if a single shot was fired by a

20 Muslim, then the whole family of the person who fired the shot would be

21 eliminated. The military leaders gave a deadline of two to three hours

22 for the police to surrender and hand over their weapons. The Muslim

23 leaders were told to produce a list of all Muslims in the area that were

24 nationalists and that they were going to "settle accounts."

25 Following this meeting, the Muslim delegation were to meet with

Page 5426

1 Miroslav Deronjic at a nearby office. On the way, he observed a group of

2 40 to 50 uniformed local Serbs loading weapons. When he met with

3 Deronjic, Deronjic stated that everything would be okay, but said that he

4 had no choice in imposing this Serb authority and that it had to be this

5 way. He said there could be no -- there could be joint government and

6 that nothing bad would happen.

7 Following the meeting with Deronjic, the Muslim delegation

8 returned to the police station. At 3.00, soldiers, officers, and

9 Miroslav Deronjic arrived at the police station and began to kick in the

10 doors and searched for and seized the police weapons. Mr. Gusic tried to

11 get away from the police station, and prior to being allowed to leave he

12 was told that he must prepare a list of Muslim extremists and nationalists

13 and that if he did not comply he would be killed. In order to escape,

14 Mr. Gusic promised to provide the list the following day and on this

15 understanding he was allowed to go.

16 Mr. Gusic was aware of what had happened in other municipalities

17 in Bosnia and decided that he had to leave the area as soon as possible.

18 Mr. Gusic left the area and made his way through a number of Serb

19 checkpoints towards Kladanj.

20 Mr. Gusic travelled with the Bratunac police chief, Senad Hodzic.

21 Mr. Hodzic was an acquaintance of the Vlasenica police chief,

22 Mr. Bjelanovic, who was a Serb. Bjelanovic provided safe passage for the

23 Muslim leaders through Vlasenica, and the Muslim leaders were able to

24 complete their escape to safe Bosnian territory and seek refuge.

25 Your Honours, the second summary is of Witness 131, Mr. Ahmo --

Page 5427

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, may I just ask you one question, at the

2 very beginning it's a bit unclear on the screen what you said exactly.

3 You started "Mr. Gusic took over as president." Would you please read

4 that line again. It's in the very beginning of your...

5 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly. Mr. Dzevad Gusic took over as president

6 of the SDA in Bratunac.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That did not appear clearly in the transcript where

8 it looks as if the last letters were an S, but it's clearly the SDA as it

9 appears on page 38 line 13 as well. So there could be no confusion about

10 that.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask that you read

12 slowly. Thank you.

13 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly. The next witness is Witness 131,

14 Mr. Ahmo Ibisevic from Bratunac. Mr. Ahmo Ibisevic was born in the

15 village of Hranca in Bratunac Municipality. In 1978, he moved to Bratunac

16 town where he lived until the beginning of the war.

17 He states that prior to the elections in late 1990, the SDA and

18 the SDS were allied in their goal to get rid of the communist party.

19 However, with the formation of the national parties, the Muslim peoples

20 started to gather around the SDA, and the Serbs around the SDS.

21 Differences in ethnicity started to be the main ground of political life.

22 After the elections, the appointments to offices in the local

23 government and in local industry were divided on an equal basis between

24 Muslims and Serbs.

25 Mr. Ibisevic describes the incident in Bratunac when a JNA unit

Page 5428

1 came to the centre of the town to seize lists of all military-aged men

2 from the secretariat of National Defence. He states that the Muslims

3 resisted the JNA's attempts to seize the documents.

4 At the beginning of 1992, ethnic tensions in Bratunac increased.

5 The ethnicities became increasingly divided. Mr. Ibisevic states that it

6 was no longer possible to talk to Serb people because they would

7 immediately respond stating that the Muslims had their Green Berets ready

8 and that they were "fully armed" and other accusations of that nature. As

9 a result, Bosniaks only went to Muslim pubs and restaurants and Serbs only

10 went to Serb pubs and restaurants. In the Serb pubs, Chetnik songs were

11 sung, and SDS or other Serb nationalist graffiti was spread all over the

12 town.

13 After the referendum for independent of Bosnia was held at the

14 beginning of March 1992, the conditions of life in Bratunac degenerated

15 very quickly. At this stage, Muslims who had been residing in the town

16 for a long time decided to leave. The Serbs openly threatened Muslims in

17 the street. They told the Muslims to leave the town, and although the

18 Serbs were not carrying their weapons openly at this time, gunfire could

19 be heard in Serb villages.

20 By the beginning of April 1992, Mr. Ibisevic saw Serbs in the

21 countryside and in Serb villages openly carrying automatic weapons.

22 Mr. Ibisevic was informed by the villagers of Hranca village that JNA

23 military trucks had been approaching Serb villagers during the preceding

24 days. At this time, the JNA was composed almost entirely of Serbs because

25 the Muslim soldiers had deserted their units after the events in Croatia.

Page 5429

1 After the attacks by Serb forces on Bijeljina and Zvornik to the

2 north of Bratunac along the Drina, the Serbs in town threatened the

3 Muslims in Bratunac stating that Bratunac would be the next town to be

4 attacked. At this time, many Muslims fled to Srebrenica, Tuzla, and

5 Kladanj. At this time, the Muslims who remained were even afraid to walk

6 along the streets.

7 During this time, several tanks had been deployed in the Ljubovija

8 area in Serbia with their cannons aimed towards the town of Bratunac.

9 On 17th April 1992, a military convoy of paramilitaries came to

10 Bratunac. Members of the Seseljevci and the Bijeli Orlovi and JNA units

11 were present in the town. Soldiers in full combat gear arrived, and they

12 patrolled the streets with armoured vehicles, tanks, and other military

13 vehicles. They were armed with automatic rifles, portable machine-guns,

14 heavy machine-guns, hand grenades, and every kind of weapons. On the

15 vehicles, heavy-barrel machine-guns were mounted. In less than two hours,

16 they established military control over the whole town. Muslims were told

17 to stay inside their houses or they would be killed.

18 Over a period of two days, the Muslim policemen were disarmed.

19 Muslims in the municipal leadership were dismissed, and Muslims were fired

20 from their jobs and told to leave Bratunac. The headquarters of the Serb

21 military forces were set up in the MUP building, Hotel Fontana, and a part

22 of the Vuk Karadzic School. Mr. Ibisevic could see the school facilities

23 from the window of his apartment. He observed the Serb officer

24 Dragan Josipovic at the Vuk Karadzic School.

25 Mr. Ibisevic moved out of the town centre to the village of Hranca

Page 5430

1 on 23rd of April 1992 where he stayed in his father's house.

2 On around 27th April 1992, Mr. Ibisevic received a telephone call

3 from a colleague of his who worked at the Vuk Karadzic School and she

4 requested that he attend to the school to report for work obligations. He

5 attended the school and observed that soldiers were guarding the entrance

6 to the gymnasium of the school. He found out later that there were Muslim

7 inmates already inside the gym.

8 On the morning of 3rd May 1992, the village of Hranca was

9 surrounded by armoured vehicles and members of the Serb TO and

10 paramilitaries. The Serbian forces fired their infantry weapons at the

11 villagers killing a 6-year-old daughter. They captured two men, tortured

12 them, and killed them. Nine men were taken away and never seen again.

13 They gathered the women and children and old men and tortured them,

14 forcing them to lie on the ground and firing infantry weapons over their

15 heads. They torched 43 houses in the Ramici hamlet and ordered the

16 villagers from this hamlet to go to the Meljemi hamlet. The majority of

17 Serb Territorial Defence members were neighbours of Mr. Ibisevic. He was

18 able to identify by name 11 members of that unit.

19 On 4th May 1992, there was gunfire from the direction of Radovici

20 and the Hranca villagers were disturbed again.

21 On 9th May 1992, Hranca was surrounded again by the Serb

22 Territorial Defence members and paramilitaries and fired upon. In the

23 hamlets of Cerovac and Polje, about 60 houses were torched. In this

24 attack, Serb forces shot dead 11 local villagers.

25 On 11th May 1992, Miladin Jokic and Dragan Ilic, Serb policemen

Page 5431












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 5432

1 from Bratunac, came to the house of Alija Sulejmanovic and

2 Bajro Sulejmanovic and told them that the villagers should all gather at

3 Abdulah Ramic's house and that everyone would be taken to Kladanj and

4 exchanged. About 250 villagers gathered and were taken by buses of the

5 Vihor company to the municipal hall in Bratunac.

6 A member of the Serbian TO ordered men to get off the bus. They

7 lined up and forced to sing Chetnik songs and surrender their valuables.

8 Milan Trsic, a driver in the Vihor company, was dressed in camouflage

9 uniform and he struck the men with a whip. The men, who were about 60 in

10 number, were then marched to the Vuk Karadzic school. The women and

11 children were taken to Kladanj.

12 At the Vuk Karadzic school, Mr. Ibisevic witnessed beatings and

13 killings and saw a number of dead bodies lying on the ground covered in

14 blood. Mr. Ibisevic saw the head of the MUP, Savo Babic at the

15 Vuk Karadzic gymnasium on two occasions. When Babic entered, there were

16 dead bodies lying on the floor. He was detained at the Vuk Karadzic

17 school until 14th of May 1992 and then transferred to Pale and later

18 exchanged.

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we thought we'd alternate every couple

20 witnesses just for the sake of the audience.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to save your voice and keep us awake.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. Your Honour, the next witness is a

23 witness for whom a pseudonym was requested. I'll be referring to this

24 witness KRAJ 128 from Bratunac. The witness was born in the village of

25 Glogova in the Municipality of Bratunac and lived there until 9 May 1992

Page 5433

1 when the village was attacked by Bosnian Serb military forces.

2 The witness was one of the founders of the SDA party in Bratunac

3 and held positions of President of the SDA in Glogova and President of the

4 Executive Board of the SDA in Glogova. When the SDA and the SDS were

5 formed, they were formed with the common goal of overthrowing the old

6 communist party, and the relationship between the parties was fairly good.

7 After the elections, the Serbs gathered only around members of

8 their own nationalist party, and the relationships between the parties and

9 the different ethnicities deteriorated. Soon, Serbs only socialised with

10 Serbs, and Muslims only with Muslims. Serb nationalistic graffiti was

11 displayed all over the town, and Chetnik songs were played in Serb bars

12 and cafes.

13 The witness describes an incident in the town when a JNA unit

14 entered the town and attempted to force the President of the National

15 Secretariat of Defence, Dzemail Becirovic to hand over a list of

16 military-aged personnel. He states that after this incident,

17 relationships between Serbs and Muslims deteriorated further.

18 The witness observes that all of the weapons which at one time

19 were held by the Bratunac TO had been given over to the JNA. He also

20 observes that after the Muslims refused to mobilise for the war in

21 Croatia, the JNA was dominated by Serbs. Accordingly, he observes that it

22 is easy to understand how weapons were distributed to Serb civilians.

23 A further incident occurred in September 1991 where two Muslims

24 were shot dead in the village of Kravica. After this incident, it was not

25 safe to move around -- to move during the nighttime. Gunfire could be

Page 5434

1 heard during the night.

2 By January, February 1992, companies had stopped working, and

3 prominent members of the Muslim community of Bratunac had left the

4 municipality due to concerns as to their safety.

5 In his role as a leader in the SDA, the witness learned that the

6 leader of the SDS, Miroslav Deronjic, had close contacts with

7 Radovan Karadzic. He states that after the referendum in early March

8 1992, the local SDS was instructed from Pale that they should proceed

9 creating a Serb municipality in order to remain within the Yugoslav state.

10 The Serb municipality of Bratunac was created immediately after the

11 referendum. A Serb crisis staff was also created which was chaired by

12 Miroslav Deronjic. Further, headquarters of the Serb police was set up in

13 a new part of the municipality building close to the Vuk Karadzic School.

14 The Serb police were created, and Serb checkpoints were set up on

15 all the ways leading in and out of Bratunac town. On 17 April 1992, the

16 witness was informed that Bratunac town had been taken over by fully armed

17 Serb paramilitary units. On around 22 April 1992, a Muslim delegation

18 from Glogova had a meeting with Miroslav Deronjic. Deronjic guaranteed

19 the delegation that nothing would happen to the villagers of Glogova if

20 they handed over all the weapons. At this time, the witness had already

21 heard rumours that Serbs were organising the collection of all the weapons

22 owned by Muslims.

23 On 25 April 1992, nine APCs, other military trucks, and two police

24 cars arrived in Glogova. Soldiers in JNA uniform and full combat gear

25 were spread all over the road. They declared themselves as Novi Sad Corps

Page 5435

1 coming from Serbia to gather all weapons owned by both Serb and Muslim

2 villagers. The witness realised that this was not true because he

3 recognised one of the members of the unit was a reservist and not a

4 professional JNA soldier. He also recognised eight local Serb policemen

5 in the group.

6 The soldiers searched the houses in Glogova for weapons and

7 gathered the male villagers in front of the school. When the witness

8 returned to his house, he was grabbed by a soldier and threatened. He was

9 then escorted to the school. The chief of the Serb police,

10 Milutin Milosevic and one of the soldiers informed the men that all

11 weapons had to be handed over in two days' time. The witness handed over

12 his hunting rifle on that day and received a receipt from it from the JNA

13 officer.

14 The witness also observed that the soldiers had a list with the

15 names of all persons who possessed weapons of any kind.

16 On 27 April 1992, the same Serb soldiers and police returned to

17 the village to collect the weapons. The villagers who remained handed

18 over their registered weapons. They were told by Milutin Milosevic on

19 behalf of Miroslav Deronjic that the safety of the village was guaranteed.

20 During the following days, Serb policemen visited the village of Glogova

21 and asked for automatic rifles to be handed over.

22 On 3 May 1992, the village of Hranca was attacked and people fled

23 to shelter in Glogova.

24 On 9 May 1992, armoured vehicles approached Glogova and the

25 village was attacked with heavy gunfire. The witness escaped to the woods

Page 5436

1 from where he observed the takeover. The entire village was surrounded

2 and Serb soldiers moved toward the centre of town discharging their

3 automatic weapons. Houses in the external part of the village were set on

4 fire.

5 The witness sheltered with 11 other men from Glogova in a dugout

6 on the side of the hill. Local Serb soldiers found the witness and the

7 other men in their shelter and marched them to the centre of the town.

8 The witness was ordered together with 22 other men and 3 male children to

9 line up --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down.

11 MR. HANNIS: My apologies.

12 The witness was ordered together with 22 other men and 3 male

13 children to line up in front of the shopping centre. Three men, including

14 the witness, were taken out of the group and loaded into a nearby car.

15 While the witness was walking toward the car, the other men were ordered

16 to move in the direction of the mosque.

17 The commander of the group of soldiers directed a soldier with a

18 machine-gun to go in the direction of the other prisoners. After a while,

19 the witness heard gunfire and people screaming. He later heard that the

20 men had been executed at the back of the mosque.

21 When the gunfire finished, the commander drove away from the

22 centre of the town, and the car the witness was in followed the

23 commander's car. The witness was taken to the Serb SUP in Bratunac where

24 the commander told a Serb police officer that the witness and the two

25 other men had to be interrogated. The officer told the commander to take

Page 5437

1 the witness and the others to the Vuk Karadzic School.

2 The witness was taken to the gym of the school that was empty. He

3 was guarded by two Serb police officers. After some time, six or seven

4 Serb soldiers came into the gym and beat the witness and the other two men

5 severely. The witness heard another person being beaten and was able to

6 subsequently identify this man as a Muslim from Hranca. The men were

7 interrogated and then beaten again over a period of seven hours. The

8 soldiers were asking for information in relation to weapons.

9 The witness told the soldiers that he had a pistol stored in the

10 shelter where he had been hiding earlier in the day. He was taken to the

11 shelter by two soldiers. One of the soldiers sat in the car whilst

12 another entered the shelter looking for the weapon. At that moment, the

13 witness made his escape.

14 The witness states that 65 to 70 villagers were killed in the

15 attack on Glogova, including men, women, and children. Houses were

16 plundered, and 80 per cent of them were set on fire.

17 I'll do one more, and then exchange with Mr. Gaynor. The next

18 witness is KRAJ 126, Dzemail Becirovic from Bratunac. Prior to the war,

19 Mr. Becirovic was Secretary for National Defence in the Municipal Assembly

20 of Bratunac Municipality. He grew up in the Bratunac Municipality, and

21 prior to 1992, he had lived in the municipality all of his life. He was

22 31 years old when he left the municipality.

23 He states that prior to 1989, there were weapons stores in the

24 municipality maintained by the Territorial Defence. However, these

25 weapons were removed. Whilst it was said that they were being taken to

Page 5438

1 the army barracks in Tuzla, these weapons were, in fact, taken in the

2 direction of Serbia.

3 The nearest JNA unit to the Bratunac Municipality was located in

4 Ljubovija Municipality in Serbia. On a hill nearby Ljubovija, there was

5 an army barracks. Sometime in 1991, a tank unit arrived at this barracks.

6 The witness went to Ljubovija, and he saw this unit on the hill with their

7 barrels pointing toward Bratunac. There were no JNA barracks in the

8 Municipality of Bratunac.

9 Mr. Becirovic was one of the early members of the SDA party in

10 Bratunac. The SDS party was formed in Bratunac in October or November

11 1990. Mr. Becirovic attended the constitutional assembly of the SDS in

12 Bratunac which was held in the stadium in Bratunac. At this assembly,

13 Velibor Ostojic gave a speech during which he claimed that the Muslims had

14 a plan to link Bosnia and Sandzak and Podrinje. He was given ovations and

15 was cheered by the Serbs who were present. He said that the Serbs would

16 never permit BiH to become an independent country and the Serbs would

17 never permit themselves to be separated from their mother country, Serbia.

18 After the elections in 1990, Mr. Becirovic was appointed to the

19 position of secretary for national defence. In the course of his

20 involvement in the municipal assembly and the executive board,

21 Mr. Becirovic observed that it was very difficult for the government to

22 accomplish anything in the municipality because there were constant

23 disagreements between the Serb and Muslim representatives. By way of

24 example, Mr. Becirovic describes a proposal made by the president of the

25 executive board, Radoljub Djukanovic, a Serb, in relation to the emergency

Page 5439

1 supplies that were held in a central store in Bratunac. Djukanovic

2 proposed that all emergency supplies be divided between 11 villages, 9 of

3 which were Serb villages. Despite the fact that this was not agreed to by

4 the executive board, Djukanovic faxed this decision to Sarajevo. However,

5 the decision was intercepted by a Bosniak working in the communications

6 office, and the decision was not implemented.

7 When the war started in Croatia, Mr. Becirovic was ordered by

8 Major Gavric of the Tuzla Corps to mobilise a unit to distribute the

9 call-up orders. Whilst he issued the mobilisation calls as he had been

10 ordered to do, he also sent out a message to all the Bosniak persons not

11 to respond to the mobilisation. In the end, only a few Serbs were sent to

12 the battlefields in Croatia. There were two further mobilisation calls

13 that the Muslims did not answer.

14 In 1991, when the Serbs realised that they could not pass

15 decisions in the executive board, they formed a crisis staff. They

16 started to mobilise Serb fighters for the war in Croatia through the

17 crisis staff. Mr. Becirovic learned at this time that the Serbs intended

18 to take all the records held in the municipal office of men eligible for

19 military service. On 27 August 1991, Mr. Becirovic removed those records

20 and hid them. Miroslav Deronjic and five or six other members of the Serb

21 Crisis Staff came to Mr. Becirovic's office and told him that he would be

22 killed if he did not return the records within 24 hours. Deronjic was

23 angry and shouted at Mr. Becirovic. He pointed at a map and said that the

24 Muslims had nothing to look forward to in the area and that the area was

25 all part of Greater Serbia.

Page 5440

1 Mr. Becirovic went to Sarajevo where he was told by the Minister

2 of Defence, Mr. Djoko, to retain the records. When he returned from

3 Sarajevo, there was a group of 200 to 300 local Serbs in front of the

4 National Defence building. Members of the group demanded the return of

5 the records. The crowd built in the city centre. And at around 2.00 p.m.

6 in the afternoon, a JNA unit from Ljubovija in Serbia arrived, and the

7 Muslim leaders were told that the JNA would not withdraw without at least

8 the documents for the Serbs. The JNA were resisted by Muslim police, and

9 a few hours later the JNA withdrew without the records.

10 By around September 1991, the Serbs had obtained armaments. The

11 armaments were obtained from Serbia. They were transported in boats

12 across the Drina River.

13 In around September 1991, in the village of Kravica, a vehicle

14 carrying four Muslims was ambushed by Serbs and two Muslim men were shot

15 and killed. Nikola Koljevic came to Kravica and informed the Serbs that

16 the legal authorities would not investigate the case. As a result of this

17 shooting, and the failure to prosecute the perpetrators, the relationships

18 between Serbs and Muslims worsened. In order to cool down the situation,

19 the head of police and commander were dismissed by a committee consisting

20 of Muslims and Serbs.

21 During this period, an order came from Sarajevo to enlarge the

22 reserve police force and arm them with weapons. This calmed down the

23 Muslim part of the population since they were a majority -- there were a

24 majority of Muslims in reserve police force.

25 In early April 1992, Deronjic stated that they wanted to establish

Page 5441

1 a Serbian police force. By this time, there was JNA artillery in the

2 hills on the Serbian side, and there was a regular army unit that had

3 arrived and settled in the village of Vranesevici. The Serbs promised

4 they would withdraw if the Muslims agreed to the establishment of a

5 Serbian police force. On 9 April 1992, the Serbian crisis staff stated

6 that a Serb police force would be formed either with or without the

7 Muslims' agreement. In order to keep the peace, on 10 April 1992, it was

8 agreed at an assembly session that a Serbian police would be formed. From

9 10 April 1992 to 17 April 1992, there were parallel police forces. During

10 this period, the Muslim population was being threatened and told to "move

11 away."

12 On 17 April 1992, a group of Arkanovci soldiers arrived at the

13 Hotel Fontana and took it over. They invited the president of the

14 municipality and the president of the SDA to a meeting and told them that

15 the Muslims must surrender completely.

16 Mr. Becirovic left Bratunac for Konjevic Polje. On the way, he

17 passed through checkpoints manned by Serbian police. He heard that in the

18 afternoon of 17 April 1992, Muslim police surrendered their weapons and

19 the civilian authorities surrendered all legal power to the Serbian crisis

20 staff. He did not personally observe what occurred in Bratunac, however,

21 Mr. Becirovic heard there were many arrests and killings and expelling of

22 inhabitants. Mr. Becirovic observed several convoys of people passing by

23 escorted by Serb police. Mr. Becirovic heard that males had been taken to

24 Pale.

25 Mr. Becirovic saw smoke coming from the village of Glogova, and

Page 5442

1 inhabitants from Glogova came through the woods to Konjevic Polje where

2 they informed the people that their village had been completely burned

3 down. They also said that a group of unarmed civilians had been gathered

4 by the Serbs and killed.

5 Mr. Becirovic organised the local people in the village for

6 defence against the Serb forces. On one occasion, a regular JNA unit with

7 APCs and trucks entered the village intending to seize the weapons without

8 fighting. The local people resisted them and they withdrew. By 15 May

9 1992, the villagers had blocked the road around their village, stopping

10 the movement of JNA army units between Sarajevo and Serbia.

11 On 29 May 1992, there was a heavy attack on Konjevic Polje from

12 Kravica by artillery. Around noon, a convoy of heavy vehicles started

13 moving toward the defence line. They attacked, and about 30 grenades fell

14 in around one minute. Infantry units were also moving toward the village.

15 The Muslims captured an APC that tried to pass over their barricade.

16 Using the APC and a rocket launcher, the villagers in Konjevic Polje

17 managed to defend their village. They destroyed the first tank that was

18 approaching with the rocket launcher and the attack was stopped. The Serb

19 forces did not know this was the only rocket the Muslims had, otherwise

20 they would have captured the village easily. Later, Mr. Becirovic heard

21 that the Serbs had 44 casualties. Some of the fighters were not local

22 people but were from Serbia.

23 The attacks on Konjevic Polje continued through 1992 including

24 bombs by MiG aircraft. However, by 1992 the Serbs had not succeeded in

25 capturing the area.

Page 5443












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 5444

1 MR. GAYNOR: The next witness is Mujo Dracic, Witness 025 from

2 Bosanski Petrovac.

3 Prior to the war in Bosnia, Mr. Dracic worked as a shopkeeper in

4 the village of Bjelaj in the municipality of Bosanski Petrovac. Before

5 the 1990 elections, the witness did not notice any tensions between

6 different ethnic groups. After the forming of the SDS party, however,

7 things began to change. Mr. Dracic noticed that Serbs separated

8 themselves from Muslims and began to sing nationalistic songs. Serbs also

9 stopped coming into the witness's shop and would only go into Serb-owned

10 shops. In the 1990 elections, the SDS party won, and in Bjelaj

11 Milorad Vekic of the SDS party was elected president of the community.

12 The local Serb police ordered Muslims to turn in any weapons they

13 might have. Uniformed Serbs patrolled the village, and on several

14 occasions came into the witness's shop, called him derogatory names, and

15 threatened him.

16 In June of 1992, after the outbreak of war, four officers wearing

17 the old regular police uniforms came into Mr. Dracic's shop, arrested him,

18 and took him to the Bosanski Petrovac police station. The police station

19 was full of detained Muslim citizens. While he waited, the witness

20 observed Serb police bringing more Muslims to the station. The Serb

21 police were brutally beating the arrestees.

22 The witness was interrogated by a Serb police officer wearing the

23 regular police uniform. The officer put a pistol to the witness's head

24 and asked him about a rifle. The witness did not own a rifle and told

25 this to the officer. The officer questioned the witness ten times, each

Page 5445

1 time holding the pistol to the witness's head. He also threatened to put

2 the witness in the Manjaca, Kozila, or Kamenica prison camps. For three

3 days, Mr. Dracic was held at the police station with 40 other men in a

4 room measuring 3 metres by 3 metres. During this time, the detainees were

5 denied access to a bathroom and were taken out for interrogations and

6 beatings.

7 After his release, Mr. Dracic went out into the street and saw

8 army soldiers from Orasac shooting into the air and throwing hand

9 grenades. The soldiers wore grey uniforms, long army coats, and the

10 kokarda on their hats. The witness was able to make it to Bjelaj where he

11 was stopped by Milorad Sovilj who wore a grey-olive JNA uniform and helmet

12 and carried a machine-gun. Sovilj swore at Mr. Dracic and told him that

13 he had killed his family and that he was leaving him alive so he could see

14 all of his family dead.

15 When the witness arrived at his home, he saw that his family was

16 still alive. Mr. Dracic and his family and Muslim neighbours were

17 terrorised night after night. Soldiers wearing olive-grey JNA uniforms

18 shot out all of the windows in their homes and set fire to a nearby

19 haystack.

20 These nightly attacks culminated on 22 September 1992 when Serbs

21 wearing JNA uniforms fired a shoulder-mounted anti-tank rocket known as

22 Zolja into the witness's home. Mr. Dracic put his wife, children, and

23 80-year-old mother into the water well in the basement. He remained

24 upstairs to watch the uniformed men who were outside swearing and shooting

25 at his house. They set fire to his garage. The uniformed men then moved

Page 5446

1 on to Mr. Dracic's neighbour's house. The witness heard ten explosions,

2 and then saw his neighbour's house and barn erupt into flames. He heard

3 the screams of the animals as they burned trapped inside the barn.

4 Mr. Dracic hid in the basement well in the water with his wife, children,

5 and mother until 8.00 the next morning. He subsequently learned that two

6 of his neighbours had been burned alive in the fire.

7 In late September 1992, the witness and his family then fled to

8 the village of Busije. The nightly burning of houses by JNA-uniformed men

9 continued. And from this point on, Mr. Dracic and his family and other

10 Muslims slept outside at night out of fear of being burned alive.

11 From 22nd September 1992 until 22nd of January 1993, the witness

12 observed Serbs looting, shooting at, and burning Muslim houses every

13 night. Muslims who were seen on the street were beaten or killed. In the

14 midst of the war, Mr. Dracic met Milorad Vekic, the SDS party community

15 president. Vekic told the witness: "Do you dare to walk around the

16 village? In our headquarters, it says we are to destroy even Muslim

17 cattle if we find them." On 22nd January 1993, the witness and his family

18 were able to leave the area where they were exchanged under the auspices

19 of the International Red Cross for Serbs in Bihac.

20 The next witness is Midho Druzic, Witness 309 from Bosanski

21 Petrovac.

22 Mr. Druzic worked as a truck driver for a large timber factory in

23 Bosanski Petrovac from 1974 until 1992. In 1990, he joined the SDA party

24 and was elected as a member of the SDA executive board in

25 Bosanski Petrovac.

Page 5447

1 In November 1990, Mr. Druzic was elected as an SDA representative

2 to the municipal assembly and remained an assemblyman until 1992.

3 The witness was present at an SDS rally held in Bosanski Petrovac.

4 The rally was attended by local SDS representatives and also by guests

5 from Serbia. One of the key speakers at the rally was Bogdan Kecman from

6 Kosovo. The witness was especially struck by his speech by included the

7 statement: "If the Muslims do not want to stay with us in Yugoslavia, we

8 will have them impaled."

9 In April 1992, Mr. Druzic was summoned into his manager's office

10 and fired along with all other Muslims who worked at the company. In May

11 1992, the police called for all Muslims to hand in their weapons. The

12 witness complied and turned in a hunting rifle to the police. On the 24th

13 of May 1992, eight local Serb police officers came to the witness's home.

14 The officers tied the witness up and searched his house. The police took

15 the witness to the SUP where he was interrogated and then placed in

16 solitary confinement without food or water for 30 hours.

17 On the 15th of June 1992 Mr. Druzic was again arrested and taken

18 to the SUP. Twenty-nine other Muslim residents of the area were also in

19 custody, some of whom the witness recognised. For two weeks, these 30 men

20 were detained in the kitchen of the local Serb police station, a room

21 measuring approximately 4 metres by 6 metres. No charges were filed

22 against the witness, and no reasons given for his arrest. On the 1st of

23 July 1992, at 3.00 a.m., the officer on duty ordered the men out of the

24 SUP station and into a waiting bus. The bus delivered the men to the

25 prison camp at Kozila. Kozila is listed in schedule C of the indictment

Page 5448

1 as detention facility 6.1. Miso Zuric, a former guard at Luca prison in

2 Bihac was head of the camp. He ordered the men to remove all their

3 personal belongings and valuables.

4 Mr. Druzic was held in the Kozila prison camp for seven weeks.

5 The camp was heavily guarded with machine-gun nests that were visible to

6 the prisoners. Mr. Druzic was held in a room with approximately 17 other

7 men. The prisoners ate, slept, urinated and defecated in this same room.

8 The guards and Miso Zuric, the head of the camp, regularly tortured

9 Mr. Druzic and the other detainees. The tortured included severe

10 beatings, threats of death, orders to perform highly degrading acts such

11 as licking another prisoner's blood from a table and kissing a guard's

12 bayonet, water submersion, and periods of solitary confinement.

13 On the 6th of August 1992, Mr. Druzic and 15 other detainees were

14 transferred to the prison camp at Kamenica. Kamenica is listed in

15 schedule C to the indictment as detention facility 6.3. Approximately 60

16 men shared a room measuring 8 metres by 12 metres without facilities. The

17 witness was held at Kamenica for three months. During that time, his

18 weight dropped from 120 kilos to 58 kilos. He and the other prisoners

19 were forced to do manual labour 12 hours a day. At times, detainees were

20 called out for interrogations and beaten.

21 During his time at Kamenica, the International Red Cross visited

22 the camp twice. After the first visit, on August 28th 1992, conditions at

23 the camp did not change. The occasional beatings continued, and the

24 detainees were still subject to forced labour. On the 3rd of November

25 1992, after the second visit by the Red Cross, Mr. Druzic, along with all

Page 5449

1 the other detainees at Kamenica was released and transferred to a

2 collection centre in Croatia.

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, the next two witnesses are pseudonym

4 witnesses from the Municipality 6 of Brcko. The first witness I will read

5 is witness KRAJ 043.

6 The witness was a Bosnian Muslim civilian living in Brcko in 1992.

7 He was detained in Luka camp in Brcko on 11 May 1992. Upon his arrival,

8 he and his fellow detainees were lined up against the wall of the hangar.

9 The soldier who was in charge said, "Here, I brought you some more

10 balijas." The Serbian soldiers present who called themselves Chetniks

11 started beating the detainees and verbally abusing them. They said,

12 "We'll kill you all. Nobody's going to save you."

13 Goran Jelisic arrived five minutes later after one of the soldiers

14 had called him from his office. He said he was the director of the

15 collection centre and that the detainees had been brought there, that they

16 would be interrogated, and who would be found guilty would be killed and

17 who was going to be found not guilty would be released. Jelisic said he

18 did not think there was a single balija who was not guilty.

19 Goran Jelisic introduced himself to the group of additional

20 detainees in front of the Hangar as Adolf, he said that he was in command

21 of the group which blew up the bridge over the Sava River, and on this

22 bridge about 100 people were killed during that explosion: Men, women,

23 children, even small babies. He said that he had killed about 150 people

24 in the Luka camp, and it wasn't all, he was going to continue. When he

25 introduced himself, Goran Jelisic wore the uniform of the policemen of the

Page 5450

1 former Yugoslavia.

2 During the witness's first night in detention, he and his fellow

3 detainees were pushed to the front of the hangar and were ordered to sit

4 on a concrete floor. At about 7.30 or 8.00 p.m., the detainees heard

5 singing of Chetnik songs, saying, "Balija, you've had it. There's a

6 little left for you. We will exterminate you." During that night, the

7 detainees' valuables such as watches and rings and their personal

8 documents were taken from them. Before midnight, the door was opened and

9 four volunteers were called for. Four men came outside and blows could be

10 heard indicating that the volunteers were being beaten outside. They were

11 moaning and begging, "Don't do that, we're not guilty of anything."

12 The voice could be heard saying, "Lie down, lean your head against

13 the grate." This was followed by a voice saying, "Don't, don't do that to

14 me. Why me? I haven't done anything. I'm not guilty." This was

15 followed by a silenced shot. Two or three minutes later, another shot was

16 heard.

17 On one occasion during his detention at Luka the witness was

18 called out in a group of four detainees. The witness watched as two other

19 men in his group were forced to kneel over a metal grate in the roadway

20 and executed one after the other. After executing the second detainee,

21 Goran Jelisic said, "Another balija less!" The witness had to load the

22 bodies of the executed detainees on the back of a refrigerated truck

23 parked at Luka.

24 Groups of four detainees were taken out of the hangar between 25

25 and 30 times. After each of these groups left the hangar, only one or two

Page 5451

1 of the group would return. On or about 16 May 1992, Major Jerkovic who

2 was wearing a JNA uniform came into the hangar with Jelisic and informed

3 the detainees that there would be no more killings or mistreatment. In

4 early July 1992, the witness together with the other detainees from Luka

5 were transferred to Batkovic detention camp in Bijeljina.

6 The next witness, Your Honour, is KRAJ 214, also from Brcko.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, just looking at the clock, how many more

8 would be to be read?

9 MR. HANNIS: Two more, Your Honour, and they are both shorter than

10 the others. This one is less than a page and the other one is about a

11 page.

12 KRAJ 214 was a Bosnian Muslim and a practicing iman.

13 Soldiers including Goran Jelisic came to the witness's home the

14 evening of the 15th of May 1992. He was there with his wife, two

15 daughters, and four female refugees who were staying with the family.

16 Jelisic demanded identification and money from the witness as well as his

17 car keys. Jelisic confiscated some 15.600 marks from the witness, both

18 personal savings and funds he held on behalf of the community. The

19 soldiers drove the witness to the detention camp in his own car. At Luka

20 camp, Goran Jelisic interrogated the witness in an office.

21 During the interrogation, Jelisic sorted through a list of names

22 held in a binder. Jelisic then handed this list to one of the soldiers in

23 the room and ordered him to bring in the individuals whose names he had

24 just circled. When the three Muslim men were brought in, Jelisic read out

25 their names and asked them to identify themselves. After questioning,

Page 5452

1 hitting, and humiliating these men, Jelisic ordered them to be taken

2 outside.

3 Jelisic then took a pistol from his desk and went outside. A few

4 minutes later, the witness heard three muffled gunshots. After each

5 gunshot, the witness heard screaming for help which stopped after the

6 third gunshot. The witness believes these three men were killed. When

7 Jelisic returned to the office, he asked the witness to "say a prayer for

8 the men."

9 Jelisic then resumed his interrogation of the witness. His

10 interrogation included questions about two men, one who was the mayor of

11 Brcko, and another who was the president of the SDA in Brcko. He accused

12 Croats and Muslims of hating Serbs. He took his pistol and commenced a

13 game of Russian roulette with the witness. He held the revolver to the

14 witness's chest and fired but the gun did not discharge. He said, "Not

15 even God wants you," and struck the witness. Jelisic then ended the

16 interrogation. He gave the witness a yellow pass guaranteeing unfettered

17 freedom of movement. On it was written: "The war presidency of the

18 Municipality of Brcko." Jelisic signed this pass, "Adolf."

19 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, the final witness is Witness 045 ,

20 Hamdija Krupic from Bosanski Novi.

21 Mr. Krupic was a policeman working in Bosanski Novi Municipality

22 since 1975. He notes that the SDS won a majority of the vote in the 1990

23 elections. The president of the municipality was Radomir Pasic of the

24 SDS.

25 When the war in Croatia began, local Muslims refused to be

Page 5453

1 mobilised to fight in Croatia. Serbs responded fully to the mobilisation.

2 Checkpoints manned by members of the reserve military and regular police

3 were set up at the entrances and exits to the town of Bosanski Novi. The

4 police force reserve was also mobilised.

5 Around the beginning of 1992, the tower at Mrakovica was

6 physically turned so that only Serb TV could be received in the area.

7 Mr. Krupic states that a paramilitary group called "Suha Rebra,"

8 which means "dry ribs" was formed. Its leader was Miroslav Petic. The

9 witness says this group engaged in many "atrocities, raping, and looting"

10 during the war.

11 They performed work -- they performed work for the crisis staff.

12 At the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993, Muslim-owned

13 businesses and homes started to be targeted with explosives. Krupic

14 states that the official authorities in town were publicly against these

15 bombings, but "in actuality, the SDS crisis staff was organising them."

16 There was a breakdown in the chain of command within the police

17 with conflicting orders being received from the republic level in Sarajevo

18 and the regional level in Banja Luka.

19 A special police unit from Banja Luka came to the municipality

20 saying their task was to disarm extremists of all nationalities. Krupic

21 says this group was under the command of Banja Luka CSB head Stojan

22 Zupljanin. They wore red berets and were well armed. It transpired this

23 special unit disarmed only Bosniaks. At the same time the SDS in

24 Bosanski Novi was openly distributing weapons to the Serbs in villages and

25 in the town.

Page 5454

1 On 15th April 1992, all the police in Bosanski Novi were asked to

2 sign an oath of loyalty to Serb authorities. The witness declined, saying

3 he wouldn't wear the tri-colour Serb flag. The Serb police began wearing

4 new blue camouflage uniforms like those worn by the special police in

5 Belgrade.

6 On 8th May 1992, the witness was told to turn in his police ID and

7 weapons. He left town with his family the next morning. Upon returning

8 to Bosanski Novi after the war, he noticed that in the villages of Blagaj

9 and Suhaca, there are no mosques still standing and that many graveyards

10 and tombs have been destroyed and damaged. The former mosque in Bosanski

11 Novi has replaced by a border post.

12 Your Honour, that ends the reading of the summaries of those

13 particular witnesses.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor. May I first make a small

15 observation in relation to the summaries you've just read: These

16 summaries are of such a detail it even goes beyond perhaps what it serves.

17 Just to give you a few examples, if you are summarising the Witness Drazic

18 and how his house was attacked you come up with a lot of details as dates

19 and whether first the barn or the house, et cetera, where it would have

20 done if you had stated, for example, that the witness states how his house

21 and that of his neighbours were attacked, two of the latter burned alive

22 when fire was set to the premises.

23 That would, I would say, well have reflected. So dates, size of

24 rooms, whether it was 4 by 6 metres or anything else, the Chamber thinks

25 that a summary of approximately -- it's not the same for all the

Page 5455












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 5456

1 summaries, of course, but some of them could have been done in 40 per cent

2 of what you actually used.

3 Also, the emphasis should, I would say, be on the events rather

4 than on the background and the history of how it came to attacks on

5 villages. So therefore, the Chamber appreciates that a lot of work is

6 given to summarise as precisely as possible, but it could be done a bit

7 more efficiently.

8 The list of exhibits which would be the next matter is rather

9 long. So perhaps we not start it now and start at a quarter to 1.00 and

10 adjourn until then.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we start with the exhibits, Mr. Registrar,

14 could you please...

15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Are the parties ready to go through the list so that

17 decisions can be taken?

18 MR. HANNIS: We are, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas?

20 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Of course, all the documents are already

22 described in one way or another in the transcript, so I'll try to go

23 through them as quickly as I can.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, there is, of

25 course, outstanding material to be tendered on the part of the Defence.

Page 5457

1 Your Honour will recall that there was an agreement between Mr. Hannis and

2 I in relation to material relating to Mr. Adil Draganovic, so I can tender

3 that material now along with what else is outstanding, which is relevant

4 pages from previous transcript in relation to my cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: What I'd like to do is firstly to get rid of most of

6 this list and then whatever remains could then be, of course, or if it's

7 at a certain moment you say this really relates to the testimony of

8 Mr. Karabeg, so at the end of Mr. Karabeg, I will like to add something,

9 that's fine. So I will wait for your interventions, but first seek to get

10 this list of outstanding exhibits a bit shorter.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So we start with P91 and P92 which are not tendered

13 into evidence, but are -- it's sought them to be marked for

14 identification, only two transcripts of case IT-99-36, two different

15 dates.

16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. My memory of this was a subject of

17 my oral motion to the tender the prior testimony of Mr. Hidic from his

18 testimony in the Brdjanin case. And the Court had requested that I go

19 through that prior testimony and identify just those portions that I

20 wanted. We have done that. I sent that to the Defence long before the

21 summer break indicating which portions I wanted. I didn't hear any

22 objections back, and we have now those prepared for the Court. There's an

23 index at the beginning indicating which page through which page and line

24 we want and why we think it's relevant. And we're prepared to offer that

25 to the Court at this time.

Page 5458

1 JUDGE ORIE: Will that then be tendered into evidence or still

2 marked for identification?

3 MR. HANNIS: It was my intention to tender it into evidence,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Any? No objections. Then we would like to

6 receive -- is it also two different -- we have now P91 for the 22nd of May

7 and P92 to the 26th of May.

8 MR. HANNIS: It's two and one, separated by a --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Two different -- have you indicated any number? If

10 not, Mr. Registrar will -- if it could be given to the registrar.

11 Madam usher, could you assist.

12 So then the old P91 to be marked for identification and P92 are

13 replaced now by these exhibits tendered into evidence.

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, that would then be we have two

16 different portions. One is part of the 22nd of May, English transcript in

17 the Brdjanin case, and the other one is the 26th of May. Yes. And I see

18 that on the back of the binder, we see that the numbers P91 and 92 appear.

19 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since there are no objections, they are

21 admitted into evidence as exhibits P91 and P92. And the old P91 and old

22 P92 tendered for identification are taken out.

23 Then we have --

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I just mention, I assume,

25 therefore, unless it has already been done, I assume that the audiotapes

Page 5459

1 that correspond to --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Are available. They are not in evidence, but --

3 MR. STEWART: -- will be made available to Mr. Krajisnik.

4 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are certainly available. Then we have

6 P98, witness statements of Mr. Karabeg, July 1999 and May 2002. No

7 objections. Then it's admitted. Then we have P99, P100, P101, three maps

8 tendered through the witness Karabeg. If there are no objections, they

9 are admitted into evidence. Then we have P102, conclusions of the

10 executive committee of the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly. No objections,

11 then they are admitted into evidence.

12 I'd forgotten to mention with P98 that the B/C/S translation was

13 P98.1. Also admitted. And P102, P102.1 is the English translation of the

14 original.

15 Then a document P103, reason and decision dated on the 25th of

16 March, description is a bit longer, but I'll not repeat that, and P103.1,

17 English translation, and there's a small typing error in the description

18 of the document, president, they are admitted into evidence. P104, letter

19 of chief of staff Banja Luka Public Security.

20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: P104 and P104.1 for the English translation, letter

22 to chief of staff of Banja Luka public security service and Serbian news

23 agency dated 20th of April is now admitted into evidence. P105 and

24 English translation P105.1, handwritten diary I would say "of" Mr. Rasula

25 instead of "if" Mr. Rasula, no objection, then admitted into evidence.

Page 5460

1 Then we have P106, P107, P108, P109, and P110, all photographs tendered

2 through the witness Karabeg. In the absence of any objections, admitted

3 into evidence.

4 P111 and P111.1 for the English translation, conclusions of the

5 Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most, 4th of June 1992.

6 Yes.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to P111, I recall that

8 I did register an objection in relation to that document. I think there

9 was no signature and no stamp.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll postpone and look at it in more detail and

11 the transcript as well, and we'll not give a decision at this very moment.

12 It's still on the list of pending exhibits but we'll soon revisit the

13 matter.

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I make a remark about that at this

15 time. I believe due to miscommunication between Mr. Harmon and I, that

16 same document was given a different exhibit number when Witness KRAJ 628

17 testified. He also talked about it as well, and it may have been

18 provisionally admitted at that time, but we can talk about it when we go

19 back.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We come to 628 anyhow, so just raise your voice if we

21 come to the same document. So P111 still undecided. So P112 and P112.1

22 for the English translation, it's a letter to commander of Manjaca

23 military training facility command dated 6 June 1992. If no objection,

24 it's admitted into evidence.

25 Then we have P113 and 113.1 for the English translation, decision

Page 5461

1 on the criteria for the possibility of departure from the municipality,

2 2nd of July 1992, that's also admitted into evidence.

3 P114, map of Sanski Most town and some photos of different

4 settlements, no objection. Admitted into evidence.

5 P115, a black and white photograph, we have no objections to the

6 photograph. It's then admitted into evidence.

7 Mr. Registrar, I'd like now to turn into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5462

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see it confirmed on my screen now. Then we'll

4 continue. P175 and 175.1 for the English translation, decision of the

5 Serb Municipality of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff, Mr. Registrar, please

6 take proper care that all the under seals are removed for the next two and

7 a half pages, no objection, then admitted into evidence.

8 I suggest that I'll read them all and not give the decision every

9 time, but take a few together. P176, conclusion of the Serb Municipality

10 of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff, 12th of May 1992, and 176.1 for the

11 English translation; P177, conclusion of the Serb Municipality of the

12 Sanski Most Crisis Staff dated the 20th of May 1992, and 177.1 for the

13 English translation; P178, order on disarming paramilitary formations in

14 Sanski Most Municipality and 178.1, English translation; P179, conclusions

15 of the Serb Municipality of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff 22nd of May 1992,

16 and 179.1, English translation; P180, conclusions of the Serbian

17 Municipality of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff dated 23rd of May 1992,

18 P180.1 for the English translation; P181, weekly update for the period 8

19 May, 25th of May by the security centre Banja Luka, P181.1, English

20 translation; P182, order number 1/92 and P182.1 for the English

21 translation; P183, the order on transfer of people to the sports hall for

22 care and accommodation, 6 of June 1992, P183.1 for the English

23 translation. Since we are now in the bottom of the page, we'll decide

24 that 175 all the way up to 183 are all admitted into evidence in the

25 absence of any objections.

Page 5463

1 P184, war record of the 6th infantry Brigade by Branko Basara and

2 P184.1 for the English translation; P185, a document from the 1st Krajina

3 Corps command 29 May 1992 and P185.1 for the English translation; P186,

4 the conclusions of the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most, 30th of May 1992, and

5 P186.1, English translation; P187, regular combat report, 31st of May

6 1992, P187.1 for the English translation; P188, report on current

7 political and security situations, 1st of June 1992, P188.1 for the

8 English translation; P189, conclusions of the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most,

9 4th of June 1992, P189.1 for the English translation; P190, order by the

10 Crisis Staff of -- there, in the summary, it is a bit unclear, but I

11 checked it's the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most

12 as well, so that should be adapted, Mr. Registrar, the description. It

13 should be the order by the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality Sanski

14 Most dated the 6th of June 1992, and P190.1 for the English translation.

15 P191, official note by Milorad Brunic, P191.1 for the English

16 translation; P192, conclusions of 7 of June 1992, P192.1, English

17 translation; P193, military report by the 1st Krajina Corps command, 14th

18 of June 1992, and same number.1 for the translation into English; P194,

19 regular combat report by the 1st Krajina Corps command 17th of June 1992,

20 P194.1 for the English translation. Having come at the bottom of the page

21 in the absence of any objections --

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, P189 is, in fact, the same document as

23 P111 that Ms. Loukas drew attention to that was then put on one side. So

24 I'm actually proposing to leave that to Ms. Loukas to pick it up

25 effectively as 111.

Page 5464

1 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll -- I'll just compare them to see because

2 it's the same date, it's the same source, so I expect it to be the same --

3 MR. STEWART: We believe it's the same, Your Honour, although --

4 JUDGE ORIE: It's most likely to be the same. But let's just

5 check and see. Mr. Registrar, do you manage to get P111 and P189

6 together?

7 Yes, Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: Since P189 was previously under seal, it might be in

9 a different location.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, it seems to me that the documents

11 originally were the same, but different versions of that document; one

12 with handwriting and underlining on it, which is also reflected in the

13 translation. So I'm not at this very moment able to see what consequences

14 that would have. So it seems that these are two different versions of the

15 same document with different ERN numbers. So I suggest that we do not

16 decide on either of them. I think the problem with the signatures and

17 stamps might be the same. I therefore suggest that we do not yet take out

18 189, that you look at both of them, and that we'll give a decision later

19 on on both P111 and P189, and then of course it's still possible that the

20 parties tell the Chamber that one of them would do.

21 MR. STEWART: Understood, Your Honour. It seems likely that the

22 same points of objection will arise in relation to both --

23 JUDGE ORIE: I can't at this moment exactly check what the exact

24 differences are.

25 MR. STEWART: Well, until the submissions are made anyway on the

Page 5465

1 objection, I agree, Your Honour, we should leave it. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That then means that the admission into evidence is

3 for the Exhibits P184 up to and including P188, and that further the

4 Exhibits P190 up to and including P194 are admitted into evidence, whereas

5 a decision still has to be taken on P189.

6 Then we move to the next page, P195, conclusions of the 19th of

7 June 1992, the English translation P195.1; P196, decision by the Crisis

8 Staff of the Krajina Autonomous Region dated 22nd of June 1992, and

9 English translation under number P196.1; P197, conclusions of the

10 Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most reached at a

11 session - there are a few typing errors, Mr. Registrar - on the 22nd of

12 June 1992, English translation under 197.1; P198, order of the Crisis

13 Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most the 23rd of June 1992,

14 P198.1 for the English translation; in the absence of any objections,

15 these documents, P195 up to and including 198 are admitted into evidence.

16 We now move to the exhibits tendered through a different witness.

17 P199, under seal, pseudonym sheet. Yes.

18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, could we go into closed session for a

19 moment to discuss this.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we could.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5466












12 Page 5466 redacted, private session














Page 5467












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 5468












12 Page 5468 redacted, private session














Page 5469

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE ORIE: P204, a letter from Sanski Most Security Station of

11 the 2nd of July 1992, and P204.1 for the translation; P205, letter from

12 the same station dated the 10th of July 1992, P205.1 for the translation;

13 P206, minutes of the 9th session of the executive committee of the

14 municipal assembly, and P206.1 for the translation. I take it this is the

15 Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most as well. Then P207, regular combat

16 report, 1st Krajina Corps command 28th of July 1992, and P207.1 for the

17 English translation; P208, minutes of the 11th session of the executive

18 committee of the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly, 14th of August 1992, and

19 the English translation, P208.1; then P209, list of citizens who have

20 moved out and into the area covered by the sector Banja Luka May 1993, and

21 209.1 for the English translation; in the absence of any objections, P204

22 up to and including P209.1 are admitted into evidence, and they are not

23 under seal. They were initially tendered under seal, but they are not any

24 more.

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I just mention this for completeness of

Page 5470

1 the record: Those exhibits regarding Witness KRAJ 628, on the 22nd of

2 June, we had a discussion about them, and they were admitted at that time.

3 But I know that we were going back and forth about what to do about all

4 the Sanski Most witnesses. So I have no problem, but I just want you to

5 know that we had made an earlier decision.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I did not check that. But if we made an earlier

7 decision, the decision today, as it should be, is the same as the one at

8 that time. And I noticed that at least on this list, there's no P205.

9 Then, the next one is -- well, the first one for the next witness,

10 KRAJ 565, is a pseudonym sheet. And in the absence of any objection is

11 admitted into evidence.

12 But now, Mr. Hannis, I'd like to hear from you whether -- perhaps

13 we first go into private session for a second.

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would ask that we do that. And this

15 was Mr. Gaynor's witness, and he's prepared to discuss these exhibits.


17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5471












12 Page 5471 redacted, private session














Page 5472












12 Page 5472 redacted, private session














Page 5473












12 Page 5473 redacted, private session














Page 5474












12 Page 5474 redacted, private session














Page 5475

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We have now come to P217 and P218, two photographs;

19 then the next one is P219 is a CD videoclip relating to Manjaca camp; and

20 then we come to P219.A where there's still a problem. I think it would be

21 wise not to take any decision on the CD videoclip until we have resolved

22 the transcripts under P219.A. So no decision at this moment is taken

23 about P219.

24 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, if I can just make one further about

25 P219, there was some confusion in this particular exhibit because there

Page 5476

1 were B/C/S subtitles on the screen, there was English and B/C/S

2 commentary, and the transcripts -- it was not entirely clear what the

3 transcripts were reflecting. Part of the confusion arose because the

4 subtitles inserted by the domestic television station were not precise

5 translations of what was being spoken. So we have prepared a revised

6 English transcript of what was said by the Sky News representative, by

7 Paddy Ashdown and by the CNN representative, and a direct B/C/S

8 translation of that. This is something which I've sent to the Defence.

9 And we would suggest that these be substituted to the existing Exhibit

10 P219.A and P219.A.1.

11 And secondly, I would just like to make three brief submissions as

12 to why these should be admitted into evidence. Three reasons are as

13 follows: First of all, these constitute contemporaneous records of what

14 was going on in Manjaca at the time, and their very contemporaneousness

15 gives them added weight.

16 Second, the Defence indicated on the record that the accused "did

17 not know what was happening in Manjaca camp." Now, we submit that the

18 transcripts of the CNN and Sky News reports demonstrate what was being

19 said in the international news media at the time about Manjaca camp, and

20 therefore these transcripts are relevant to the question of whether the

21 accused knew or did not know about what was going on in Manjaca.

22 The third reason we submit why these transcripts should be

23 admitted is that the CNN representative Christiane Amanpour states

24 "Karadzic himself authorised our visit to this camp" and given the

25 proximity or alleged proximity between the accused and Karadzic, we submit

Page 5477

1 that that is relevant evidence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask the Defence whether they have taken

3 already a position in view of the new documents containing both

4 undertitles and words spoken and translations to both of that.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would indicate that yes, the Defence

6 has received the relevant transcripts, and Ms. Cmeric has had an

7 opportunity to compare the English and the B/C/S. And as far as

8 translation goes, there is no issue. There is just one aspect that in

9 relation to the B/C/S version. On page 2 of the B/C/S translation where

10 it refers to "zatvorenik III," that should be "zatvorenik II" in

11 accordance with the English version. And "zatvorenik," of course, means

12 prisoner in English.

13 That's as far as the translation goes. There's no issue with the

14 translation. The objection in relation to the videoclip from CNN and,

15 therefore, the associated transcripts, nevertheless, the objection in

16 relation to that series of exhibits is maintained, Your Honour, for the

17 reasons given on the previous occasion.


19 MS. LOUKAS: There is one further matter I should mention while I

20 am on my feet and noting we are about to come up to 145, the objection I

21 noted in relation to 111, in relation to Mr. Karabeg, I actually took the

22 opportunity of checking the transcript while I was in Court, and that

23 objection actually related to 111, 112, and 113. So I should place that

24 on the record now before we go any further.


Page 5478

1 MS. LOUKAS: And I should have mentioned that earlier.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because once we have... Let me just see.

3 MS. LOUKAS: And I would indicate that that objection was made on

4 the 25th of May 2004 at page 2849 of the transcript.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that also means, Ms. Loukas, that where I

6 earlier today indicated that P112 and its translation and P113 were

7 admitted into evidence, that I should withdraw that and make P112 and 113

8 on an equal footing as P111, as an undecided issue.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. And I should, of course,

10 have mentioned that earlier. It's just that we were having trouble

11 checking the transcript.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I do not blame you for it.

13 I'm afraid that we can't finish. P219 and P219.A will still have

14 to be decided on the basis of the submissions made earlier when they were

15 tendered. I do understand that the translation issue as such does not

16 create any further problem, but that the main issue is whether at all this

17 videoclip should be accepted into evidence. If it's not, then, of course,

18 translations of any transcripts are of no further importance.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour.


21 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, the agreed-upon versions of 219 and

22 219.A.1, if I could tender those. Of course, I've made the corrections to

23 the B/C/S transcript, which the Defence kindly pointed out.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So P219.A and P219.A.1 will now be replaced by the

25 new versions under the same number of P219.A and P219.A.1 but remain

Page 5479

1 undecided together with 219 where the Chamber will focus on relevance,

2 reliability, all the issues raised, and not any more on any translation

3 issues.

4 Then -- Madam usher, could you please.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I apologise. I've only brought one

6 copy of each of the exhibits. I can provide --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would -- yes. These are the new 219.A

8 and 219 -- if you provide copies at a later stage, Mr. Gaynor, that would

9 be appreciated.

10 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be wise to stop at this moment. So

12 we have gone through the list up until Number P221. We'll find a moment,

13 as I hope soon, to finalise this list. Perhaps I'll ask Ms. Philpott to

14 make a new list already incorporating decisions taken today and matters

15 left out. I'll discuss that with her once she has returned.

16 Yes, Mr. Registrar.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: I did speak with Mr. Harmon earlier, Your Honour,

19 regarding Monday's schedule. He's not sure, but he may require the

20 additional time that day. But he will make his best efforts that we can

21 complete that witness on Monday.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even if we would reserve some time in the

23 afternoon of next Monday in order to see whether we could finish that day,

24 that would also serve the purpose that if we would not be able to do that,

25 that at least we can finish by Tuesday morning not later than 11.00.

Page 5480

1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I think that's entirely correct.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until next Monday in -- I

3 don't know what courtroom we'll be, Mr. Registrar. Yes, we'll sit in

4 Courtroom I next Monday. We'll adjourn until then. And the -- we'll

5 inform the parties if final arrangements have been made for sitting in the

6 afternoon and at what times that would be and in what courtroom that would

7 be.

8 Not all arrangements are made, but at least Courtroom I would be

9 available in the afternoon. Of course, it's not just the room, but we

10 need a lot of people to assist us. I wish you all a good weekend and we

11 adjourn until Monday.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

14 September, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.