1 Tuesday, 19 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 There was still a few issues. Ms. Loukas, you asked yesterday

10 special access to the public gallery. I did understand that it's not at

11 this moment urgent any more. I don't know whether you still would like to

12 have a decision on it for days to come.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, perhaps for some subsequent occasion, in

14 view of the fact that the witness today is protected, and also I think my

15 niece decided spending the day with her Dutch friends would be more

16 interesting.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me say the following: The Chamber was inclined

18 to grant your request, so whenever it becomes relevant again, please

19 address us and then we'll then most likely allow it.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then there was one other issue, communication between

22 the parties in respect of Prosecution Exhibits 200 to 203. Mr. Harmon.

23 MR. HARMON: Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,

24 counsel. That's an issue that initially was raised and Mr. Resch was the

25 lawyer who led those exhibits. I'm informed that Mr. Hannis is dealing

1 with that issue. I'm trying to resolve that issue so I can report to Your

2 Honours this afternoon. Mr. Hannis will be in a position to report

3 tomorrow about that particular issue.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait until tomorrow. It's not that

5 urgent, but I just didn't want to lose it out of sight.

6 Then if there are no further procedural issues -- yes, Ms. Loukas.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, in fact there are some procedural

8 issues. Just in relation to this witness, there are a number of matters I

9 wish to place on the record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Firstly, I received the 89(F) summary by e-mail

12 today, at 1.13, which I would submit is unacceptably late for the current

13 purposes. I would indicate that upon receipt, I indicated to Mr. Margetts

14 the paragraphs, the 89(F) summary, that I objected to, which at this stage

15 I haven't received a response. But in view of the lateness of time, I

16 appreciate that that would not have been easy in the circumstances. I

17 would also indicate that I received a supplemental information sheet at

18 12.35 today, in relation to this witness. Again, unacceptably late, in my

19 submission.

20 The other aspect is that, in relation to the receipt of material

21 in relation to this particular witness, I can also indicate that I made a

22 number of objections to the statement. The Prosecution have agreed to a

23 number of the paragraphs being redacted, but there's still a number of

24 paragraphs outstanding. And also, further in relation to the question of

25 material on this witness, I would indicate that initially a CD was

1 disclosed last week in relation to this witness, indicating some 86

2 exhibits, and an e-mail was received last night at 9.00, reducing it to, I

3 think, approximately 26.

4 I do place those matters on the record, Your Honour, because

5 there's been, I would submit, lateness in terms of the selection of the

6 number of exhibits, lateness in terms of the 89(F) summary, and the

7 lateness in terms of the supplemental information sheet.

8 Now, I spoke to Mr. Margetts prior to Your Honours coming on to

9 the Bench, and he indicated that he thought that he'd be about two hours

10 with this witness. In the circumstances, I indicate to Your Honours that

11 it's unlikely that I would be in a position to proceed to cross-examine

12 this witness immediately upon the completion of the evidence in chief.

13 So I place those matters on the record, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetts, any response?

15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. Some substantial response, in

16 fact.

17 In respect of the alleged lateness of the 89(F) summary, my

18 learned friend in fact has provided some general complaints in relation to

19 the statement that indicated that she objected to a very substantial

20 portion of the statement. I had requested that she detail the exact

21 paragraphs, which in fact she did, and late yesterday evening I advised

22 that it was not possible for us to provide an 89(F) summary until the

23 discussions between the parties were complete in respect of what that

24 summary would refer to. As soon as it was clear, in fact, what paragraphs

25 we intended to submit in the form of 89(F), we provided the 89(F) summary

1 to the Defence.

2 In respect of the alleged lateness of the supplemental information

3 that was provided at 12.35 today, the witness completed providing that

4 supplemental information at 11.30 today. Immediately that was put in a

5 form that could be provided to the Defence and was provided to them.

6 In regard to the paragraphs that the Defence says they object to,

7 we have a response in respect of each one of those specific paragraphs.

8 It's our submission that they're entirely appropriate for the 89(F)

9 procedure.

10 And in regard to the 86 exhibits that were provided to the Defence

11 almost a week ago, one, they've had substantial time to review them; two,

12 the witness only was in for proofing yesterday and we managed to go

13 through each of those exhibits with the witness; and immediately upon

14 reducing that to a list of 26, we provided that list, that reduced list,

15 to the Defence at 9.00 p.m. last night, the proofing finishing at

16 8.00 p.m.

17 The nature of those 86 exhibits are in most instances documents

18 that have been disclosed to the Defence for quite some time, and brief

19 documents, one-page minutes of Crisis Staff meetings or War Presidency

20 minutes. So we did not consider that burdensome. In fact, in preparation

21 for this witness we would have considered that advantageous to the

22 Defence.

23 So we do contest any representation that there's been any lateness

24 from the Prosecution.

25 Thirdly, it has been indicated to the Defence that this would be

1 an 89(F) witness. In our view, that's in the interests of justice that we

2 do expedite these proceedings. The statement was adequate, and in our

3 view, there was no necessity for this witness to go through that evidence

4 and take the Court's time. In light of that, we are surprised that the

5 Defence would not be ready to cross-examine, given that the substantial

6 part of the witness's evidence is going to be produced in written form,

7 and for some time they've had notice of that.

8 That's all we have in response.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I might briefly respond to Mr.

11 Margetts' --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MS. LOUKAS: -- assertions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But before doing so, Ms. Loukas, I'd like to make one

15 observation. That's the following: I think that the Prosecution is not

16 criticised for waiting too long after they have -- they had their proofing

17 sessions with the witness, that they waited too long to provide the

18 Defence with the results of that, but perhaps that the proofing sessions

19 take place too late, so that finally if you would finish your proofing

20 sessions a quarter of an hour before the hearing starts, then of course

21 you might do it in one or two minutes. But nevertheless, it's 15 minutes

22 before we start. So I think that's the problem. And of course we should

23 ask ourselves, as a matter of efficiency, whether, if we spend 20 minutes

24 on these kind of debates on what's late and what's not late, that is 25 of

25 us or 20 minutes, that's 500 minutes of Registry, interpreters, judges,

1 parties. So if we would have to strike a balance, whether it would be

2 acceptable that the witness would arrive one day earlier and to do

3 everything at least 24 hours early stage, we should consider that. Of

4 course, it's not up to the Chamber to control the budget of the OTP, and I

5 do understand that there are some budgetary restraints, but at the same

6 time we have some time constraints, and we have on average 25 human beings

7 in court listening to debates on the late delivery of summaries,

8 statements, et cetera.

9 Ms. Loukas.

10 MS. LOUKAS: In fact, Your Honour has taken up my point in

11 relation to the late arrival of the witnesses, and that is in fact

12 precisely the point. And I have nothing further to add in relation to

13 that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll see what's possible this afternoon,

15 what is not.

16 Mr. Margetts, are you ready to start the examination of

17 Witness 144?

18 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We're ready to proceed.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we first have to pull the curtains down, because

20 Witness 144 is protected by face and voice distortion, and we use a

21 pseudonym in respect of him.

22 Would it be a solution if I suggest to the parties that we would

23 not start with the 89(F) summary, but keep that perhaps for a later moment

24 and that the parties have an opportunity -- first of all, we'll then know

25 what subjects have been dealt with in viva voce examination. And of

1 course, the Chamber is not aware of what specific paragraphs are subject

2 of the Defence complaints. So therefore, it's difficult for us too. So

3 let's see if the parties can agree on that, and if not, the Chamber would

4 like to be informed about the character of the objections and the -- we

5 then give a decision.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, I can indicate

7 that as I indicated earlier, there are outstanding objections in the 89(F)

8 summary, and I'm happy to deal with them in the manner suggested by Your

9 Honour, and the objections related to the substantive statement we can

10 deal with at some later time as well.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 144. I call you Witness 144

14 because protective measures have been granted in respect of you. That

15 means that we'll not use your name, but call you Witness 144, and that the

16 outside world will not see your face and will not hear your voice. Both

17 will be distorted when your testimony is broadcasted to the outside world.

18 Before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and

19 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the

20 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to

21 make that solemn declaration of which the text will now be handed out to

22 you by Madam Usher.

23 WITNESS: WITNESS KRAJ 144

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Witness 144.

3 The curtains may be pulled up again.

4 Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present the first exhibit

6 to the witness. If that could be presented under seal.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be --

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P324, under seal.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And that's a pseudonym sheet, I expect.

10 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. This pseudonym sheet, you'll

11 note, is not in the typical form of a pseudonym sheet. It has the

12 background of the witness in terms of the witness's employment history.

13 The reason for placing that additional information on this sheet is so

14 that we don't have to go into private session to receive this information.

15 So we'd like that exhibit marked and given a number.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I take it that you have been provided

17 with this bit of special --

18 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps then when you could read it at the same time

20 when the witness reads it.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And tell us whether ...

23 Witness, would you please take your time to read the B/C/S part of

24 this document, and also to verify whether your name is on that document.

25 And wait for a second to confirm, because we'll first give an opportunity

1 to Ms. Loukas to verify.

2 MS. LOUKAS: I can indicate, Your Honour, I have no problem with

3 that document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Margetts.

5 Examined by Mr. Margetts:

6 Q. Witness 144, can you see your name on this sheet that is before

7 you?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to instruct the parties to always put their

10 microphones off when the witness starts answering your questions, because

11 otherwise the voice of the witness would come through the other microphone

12 to the public. So therefore, once you've put the question, please turn

13 your microphone off.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. In the right-hand column of that document is a listing of your

16 experience and your personal details. Is that listing in the right-hand

17 column in Bosnian correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. If the pseudonym sheet

20 could be -- thank you, Your Honour. If the pseudonym sheet could be

21 returned.

22 Your Honour, I'd like to present the next exhibit to the witness,

23 and that is the ICTY witness statement of this witness. That too will be

24 presented under seal.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P325, under seal.

1 MR. MARGETTS:

2 Q. Witness, you have before you a Bosnian version of the statement

3 provided to the Office of the Prosecutor in July 1997. Is that the

4 statement that you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Since you've arrived in The Hague, have you had the opportunity to

7 review this statement, and are the matters set out in the statement true

8 and correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if that statement could be returned.

11 In the ordinary course, I would ask to proceed with the oral summary of

12 the statement, but in light of the objections, we'll proceed at the end of

13 the witness's evidence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You now may continue the examination viva voce.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'd like to

16 present the next three exhibits to the witness. They are three maps. The

17 first two maps, I imagine, will be uncontroversial. The first map depicts

18 where the municipality of Kotor Varos lies in Bosnia. The second map

19 depicts the municipality of Kotor Varos. If the Defence has no objection

20 to those maps, then there's no need for them to be presented to the

21 witness.

22 MS. LOUKAS: There's no objection to the maps, Your Honours. I've

23 seen them.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Map number 1 will be Prosecution number P326. Map

25 number 2, P327. And map 3, P328.

1 MR. MARGETTS: If the third map, the map of Kotor Varos city and

2 surrounds, could be provided to the witness.

3 Q. Witness 144, do you recognise this map, and is this a map that you

4 pre-marked yesterday?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you refer to the numbering set out on that map, the numbers

7 that run from south to north, 1 through 5, and describe to the Court the

8 various structures that those numbers depict.

9 A. Number 1 depicts the house that I used to live in.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, if you're asking for protective

11 measures, is this a question that should be dealt -- could we ask for

12 redaction?

13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. If that map could not be

14 displayed on any external monitor, and if the map could be provided under

15 seal.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because -- I don't know where the map is, where

17 it's visible or not for the outside world. Or if not, then it has not

18 been put on an ELMO. So therefore, the damage is limited, because no one

19 knows what 1 stands for. And then P328, was that under seal or not?

20 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we would like it to be under seal.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd like it to be under seal.

22 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Perhaps you could continue with the witness as

24 long as the map is not on an ELMO or in whatever other form of electronic

25 display to the outside world. You can continue.

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13 English transcripts.

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1 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness 144, if you could just start again to describe what each

3 of those numbers mark on the map.

4 A. Number 1 marks the house in which I lived. Number 2 marks the

5 Municipal Assembly building. Number 3 marks the municipal court and

6 prison. Number 4 marks the police station building. Number 5 marks the

7 elementary school building in which we were detained.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you estimate for the Court the distance along

9 the road from your house to the building marked 5, which is the school.

10 A. Yes. The distance is between 1.2 and 1.5 kilometres. Therefore,

11 between 1.2 and 1.5 kilometres. That would be the distance.

12 Q. Thank you. How far is it from the city of Kotor Varos to the city

13 of Celinac that lies in the north?

14 A. The distance between Kotor Varos and Celinac is about 15

15 kilometres.

16 Q. How far is it from the city of Kotor Varos to the city of

17 Banja Luka that lies further north along the same road, through Celinac?

18 A. The distance between Kotor Varos and Banja Luka is about 31

19 kilometres.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. We've finished with that

21 exhibit.

22 If the witness could be shown the next two exhibits. That is a

23 document setting out the ethnic composition of Kotor Varos and an

24 assessment of the security situation in the area of Kotor Varos.

25 THE REGISTRAR: They will be P329 and P330.

1 MR. MARGETTS:

2 Q. Witness, could you please refer to the document that is

3 headed "national structure of the population according to local communes."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you look at the last row on that table, where, in the total

6 percentage of Croats, Muslims, and Serbs from the municipality of

7 Kotor Varos is set out. Can you tell me whether or not that represents

8 the demographic of the municipality of Kotor Varos before the conflict in

9 1992.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you. I've finished with that document.

12 Q. If you could look at the next document, which is

13 headed "assessment of security situation in the area of Kotor Varos."

14 Could you read the second paragraph of that document, which

15 commences: "Since 11 June 1992." And ends: "72 per cent Serbs." And

16 could you tell me whether the percentages set out in that paragraph

17 represent the demographics in Kotor Varos as at around May 1993.

18 A. These data are consistent with the demographic picture in the area

19 at the time.

20 Q. Thank you. Could you read the third paragraph --

21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just prior to moving on with this

22 document, I'd just like to -- the way in which it's been used thus far, I

23 would object to any further use of the document, firstly, in terms of the

24 fact that it is not the witness's own document. It's not a document that

25 he's apparently had any association with. There's been no foundation laid

1 for the use of this document via this witness, and I would be objecting on

2 that basis. I'd also indicate, Your Honour, of course we usually deal

3 with objections in relation to documents at the end, but just for the

4 record, again, the document is not signed, it's not -- there's no stamp,

5 there's nothing to indicate its authenticity.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, this is a document that purports to

8 set out the situation in Kotor Varos as at May 1993, and it purports to

9 record events that took place from the middle of 1992, events that are

10 pertinent to the indictment in this case. This witness is not able to

11 vouch for the authenticity of this document, and that's not what we

12 present this document to him for. We present this document to him as

13 someone who was present in Kotor Varos from the middle of 1992 and to the

14 middle -- throughout the period to the middle of 1993, and is someone who

15 will be able to assist the Court in assessing whether the information set

16 out in this document is accurate and correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But will you present any evidence or any

18 further information as to the source of this document? Because if the

19 witness can confirm the correctness of some of the content of this

20 document, of course, that means that the witness has some personal

21 knowledge if the document is an authentic document or at least if we know

22 where it comes from, then it -- you could expect some mutual support of

23 the two sources of information. But the complaint of Ms. Loukas is that

24 we do not know where this document comes from.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. This is another matter of the

1 order in which the evidence is presented.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from you later on what the origin of this

3 document is.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So then we'll first wait and see what information

6 comes to the Chamber in this respect.

7 Please proceed. I noticed, Mr. Margetts, that the copy we

8 received of the map is a bit different from the original. All the legends

9 are missing.

10 Ms. Loukas, there are some legends on the original one which do

11 not appear on the copy.

12 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour. The copy that we've

13 received does not have a legend either.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can you do without? I mean, most of it -- what

15 a tree is on the map, even without a legend -- the scale is on the map,

16 which is most important.

17 MS. LOUKAS: I don't think we have a problem --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine.

19 MS. LOUKAS: -- with the absence of a legend.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Margetts, in general terms, if

21 there's a scale on the map and the whole distance is on the map, the

22 Chamber is perfectly able to read distances. And even when it says

23 Celinac is approximately 14 kilometres, then there's no need to ask the

24 witness again, unless there's any reason to believe that's not correct.

25 Banja Luka, however, is not on the map.

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness 144, I'd like to read to you the second paragraph of the

4 document that is before you, and I will ask your comment in respect of a

5 number of matters.

6 The second paragraph reads as follows: "Referring to the

7 situation from 11 June 1992 that states: "Croats remained in the villages

8 of Zabrdje, Podbrdje, Sibovi, Bastina, Novo Selo. There is a small number

9 of them in Vrbanjci and Orahova and very few in Kotor Varos. These are

10 predominantly elderly people who do not pose any real threat. Out of a

11 total number of Muslims who remained in the municipality, most of them are

12 in Siprage and the surroundings village of Dunici, Denici, Crepovi,

13 Kovacevici, Zuhrici and Palivuk, where they number about 3.500. They are

14 also in Garici and Curkici. A very small number of them live in Vrbanjci

15 and some in Kotor Varos itself. The elderly and children are also

16 predominant in this category, but there are also a good number of

17 able-bodied men. We assess that around 400 people are up to 35 and

18 another 250 to 300 up to 55 years old."

19 Witness, does that set out an accurate representation of the

20 demographic of Croat and Muslim people who had remained in Kotor Varos up

21 to May 1993?

22 A. Yes. These demographics are consistent with the situation in the

23 municipality of Kotor Varos in this period of time.

24 Q. Witness, I'd like to refer you to the next paragraph in this

25 document, and I'll read this paragraph into the record as well. It

1 states: "Muslims in Garici, Curkici and Vrbanjci were disarmed in July

2 and August 1992. People in the area of Siprage and other villages were

3 disarmed at the end of January and February of the current year. Thus,

4 318 legally and around 90 pieces of illegally bought weapons, mostly

5 automatic and semi-automatic rifles and several pistols were temporarily

6 confiscated in the area. According to operative information there could

7 be another 15 to 20 pieces of illegal weapons which should not jeopardise

8 the safety of our forces and citizens."

9 Witness, is that consistent with your understanding of what

10 occurred in Kotor Varos in terms of disarmament of the population?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, I've finished with that document. If

13 the next document could be presented to the witness, and this is a

14 document dated 27 March. And if this document could be presented under

15 seal.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P331, under seal.

17 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, for the next couple of questions,

18 could we go into private session.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Please proceed,

15 Mr. Margetts.

16 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could the witness statement be

17 returned to the witness. That's Exhibit numbered 325. And could that

18 remain with him throughout the duration of the examination.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, if I might just ascertain from

21 Mr. Margetts if the statement is there for the purposes of the witness

22 reading his statement prior to giving answers or if it's there just in

23 case he wants to refer to it.

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the purpose of the statement being

25 there is that when we are referring to specific topics and there are

1 undisputed paragraphs between the Defence and the Prosecution, so it's

2 clear to the witness what matters I am asking him about and what matters

3 are already referred to in his statement, I intend to refer him to his

4 statement and then ask him in relation to further relevant matters.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So it's rather to have a starting point than to seek

6 refreshment of his memory.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm grateful for that

10 clarification.

11 MR. MARGETTS:

12 Q. Witness, could I refer you to paragraph 108 of your statement. At

13 paragraph 108, you detail a meeting between yourself, Zdravko Samardzija,

14 Momcilo Komljenovic, and another gentleman, wherein they ordered that all

15 weapons be handed over. Komljenovic told you that the SDS had taken over

16 Kotor Varos --

17 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, this is precisely what I wanted to

18 avoid. Mr. Margetts is reading out the paragraph as opposed to referring

19 up to the point of a particular meeting and then allowing the witness to

20 give his answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it depends on what questions will come.

22 If, for example, which I do not expect Mr. Margetts would ask the witness

23 to describe those persons present or what they were wearing, then of

24 course it's a good introduction. If however, other questions -- so let's

25 just wait and see. I think I made it quite clear that the Chamber

1 understands the position of Mr. Margetts to be that he introduces the

2 questions and not brings into the mind of the witness what he'd like to

3 hear from him.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, please proceed. And, well, you heard

6 both the objection and the understanding of the Chamber of the way you're

7 proceeding.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Komljenovic stated that the SDS had taken over Kotor Varos and

10 that the town was now considered as part of the Serb Republic. You're

11 also told that a Crisis Staff had been formed in order to deal with

12 civilian matters until a proper legal body had been established.

13 Following this meeting with Mr. Komljenovic, which you referred to

14 as a meeting in around mid-June 1992, did you have any further contacts

15 with Mr. Komljenovic in 1992, or did you hear of other contacts that were

16 made with him?

17 A. I had no further contacts with Komljenovic, and I never heard of

18 anything else that he was involved in. On that day, he came together with

19 Zdravko Samardzija and a couple of other people I did not know, who wore

20 camouflage uniforms. There was a man with them that was familiar to me,

21 Dusko Skoric, who hailed from Kotor Varos. What they told us was that

22 Kotor Varos was now part of the Republic of Srpska, that a Crisis Staff

23 had been established and that people who lived in my neighbourhood were

24 supposed to hand over their weapons, their legally owned weapons.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. When you were detained --

1 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that again, it's

2 clear that --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Ms. Loukas, I noticed two things. First

4 of all, that Mr. Margetts asked what happened after this meeting, and that

5 the answer of the witness was, apart from a very brief answer to that

6 question, that he then started to describe the meeting again, which was

7 already read out. It was not Mr. Margetts who asked for that. So if I

8 would give any instruction at this moment, Mr. Margetts, I think your

9 question was fully in line with what you were expected to do, but the

10 witness described again what you had already put to him in reading. So

11 perhaps then you could guide the witness just to limit himself to answer

12 the question and not to repeat what you had stated already.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 MS. LOUKAS: And indeed an additional point, Your Honour, is of

15 course that the witness in answering not the question that Mr. Margetts

16 had asked was in fact reading from his statement.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MS. LOUKAS: So I put a marker here in relation to 89(F) and how

19 careful we need to be with it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 144, Mr. Margetts just read to you a part of

21 your statement concerning a meeting you had and asked then whether there

22 were any further contacts. You answered that question but then returned

23 to the meeting and described it again, and it was already read out to you.

24 We are under some time constraints. May I instruct you, first of all, to

25 carefully listen to what exactly Mr. Margetts' question is and then to

1 answer that question, because of course we have your statement. And

2 second, not to -- when you answer a question, not to further read from

3 your statement, but tell us what you know. Yes?

4 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Witness, when you were detained, was Mr. Komljenovic mentioned to

7 you by anyone whom you were detained with?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. What was said to you?

10 A. In relation to Komljenovic, I know that together with me in prison

11 there were two of his brothers-in-law. One of them was called Anto and

12 the other, Ilija Zeba. Komljenovic's wife, who was a Croat, came to the

13 prison to visit the husbands of her sisters, and she told him that

14 Komljenovic had said that they could not be released and go back to

15 Kotor Varos. The only thing that could be done was to take them to

16 Travnik, in a convoy. That was what I heard from Ilija Zeba, who is

17 Komljenovic's brother-in-law.

18 Q. Following your receipt of that information, did the

19 brothers-in-law remain detained or were they released?

20 A. They were taken in a convoy to Travnik.

21 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that exhibit of 27 March.

22 MR. MARGETTS: If the witness, Your Honour, could be provided with

23 the next exhibit, which is dated 7 April 1992, and if that exhibit could

24 be provided under seal.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P332, under seal.

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1 MR. MARGETTS:

2 Q. Witness, in your statement you refer at paragraphs 97, 98, and 99,

3 to your membership at the National Defence Council. I'm not asking you to

4 refer to that now, but just reminding you that that is in the statement.

5 I refer to this excerpt from the minutes of the National Defence Council

6 of Kotor Varos of 7 April 1992. Can you look at item 2, the entry for

7 item 2, and tell me whether you were present at that meeting.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can I refer you again to item 2, where it says that there was a

10 reference to a problem of unfair treatment of Muslim and Croatian staff.

11 Could you explain to the Court what that problem of unfair treatment was.

12 A. I held a post as one of the leaders in that company. In that

13 period of time, the managing director came to see me and told me that I

14 would no longer stay in my position as manager, but he said, "You would

15 not be out of a job. You will stay on as an advisor."

16 Those sub-managers who were subordinate to me would take over what

17 I used to do, he said. I asked to have a decision in writing, because a

18 thing like this could only be decided by an official body within the

19 company. Needless to say, I never received any decision in writing. A

20 similar situation arose also in relation to one of the foremen at

21 Brigadirnica [phoen], who was a Croat by ethnicity. His name was Nedeljko

22 Brgic [phoen]. I asked my manager whether he had received any orders from

23 anyone to dismiss Croats and Muslims from leading positions. The

24 situation was similar in other companies too at the time. He avoided

25 answering me in relation to my question, who the orders had come from.

1 But all of us who had been dismissed knew what the real truth behind that

2 was, that Croats and Muslims could not hold managerial posts in the

3 company.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you refer to the paragraph that lies above the

5 heading item 2 and commences after remarks by Savo Tepic. This paragraph

6 continues and states that: "After the remarks by Savo Tepic, chief of the

7 SJB in Kotor Varos on the conclusions of the meeting held on 6 April 1992

8 at the security services centre in Banja Luka, others also took part in a

9 discussion on the transformation in the Kotor Varos SJB, and it was agreed

10 that a meeting would take place with Stojan Zupljanin."

11 Can you describe for the Court what you observed in terms of the

12 transformation in the Kotor Varos SJB.

13 A. Already by that date, the public security service of the

14 Banja Luka region was cut off from Sarajevo in terms of communication

15 lines. The surrounding municipalities that were within the Serbian

16 autonomous district, that is, within the Serbian Republic, received their

17 commands from Banja Luka and they started wearing their insignia. The

18 public security service in Kotor Varos did not agree with the idea of

19 joining the security services centre in Banja Luka, although it continued

20 communicating with the services there because it had no choice. And the

21 public security service in Kotor Varos bore the insignia of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina.

23 Q. Did that change at any time; that is, did the Kotor Varos SJB

24 continue to bear the insignia of Bosnia and Herzegovina or did it at some

25 time change its insignia?

1 A. No. It kept the insignia that it had from before.

2 Q. The takeover of Kotor Varos took place on the 11th of June, 1992.

3 After this date, what insignia did the police in Kotor Varos wear?

4 A. Following the 11th of July 1992, the police in Kotor Varos started

5 wearing the insignia of the Serbian Republic.

6 Q. Witness, could you again tell the Court -- or could you please

7 tell the Court what date Kotor Varos was taken over.

8 A. The takeover took place on the 11th of June in 1992. Yes,

9 exactly. 11th of June, 1992. It was my mistake before.

10 Q. Just for clarity then: Is it your answer that after the 11th of

11 June, 1992, the police in Kotor Varos started wearing the insignia of the

12 Serbian Republic?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Just a marker again,

15 Your Honour. It really is an inappropriate way of asking a question to

16 include in it the assertion in that leading format the takeover of

17 Kotor Varos took place on the 11th of June. Interestingly enough,

18 Mr. Margetts didn't get the response he wanted. He got the 11th of July

19 and is still trying to sort of clarify that. But it really is better

20 letting the witness giving the answer than telling them in the question

21 when the takeover took place.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, objection is about leading too much.

23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the reason for the clarification is

24 that the witness statement contains references to the date of the

25 takeover, and that will be admitted into evidence. Accordingly,

1 non-leading questions were asked to clarify the matter, which the witness

2 did eminently by himself. And finally, a leading question was asked

3 merely to repeat what the witness clearly intended by his prior answer.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just have a look. Yes. I do understand why you

5 did it. In general terms, I would say that using a witness statement when

6 we examine a witness viva voce we should refrain to just ask him to repeat

7 what is in his statement but this is not exactly what happened here. So

8 therefore, if you would please keep in mind the objection and what I just

9 said and then you may now proceed.

10 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. If I could refer you, Witness, to the first paragraph in the

12 minutes dated 7 April 1992, there is a reference there to a Lieutenant

13 Colonel Peulic. Do you know this person, and if so, could you describe

14 who he is to the Court.

15 A. Yes, I do know the person. He was commander of the Yugoslav

16 People's Army for the area of Skender Vakuf, Kotor Varos, and Celinac. He

17 attended twice the meetings of the -- of national defence, where I was

18 present as well.

19 Q. Witness, if I could refer you to the next paragraph, and there is

20 a reference to Slobodan Zupljanin. Could you please describe to the Court

21 when you first met Slobodan Zupljanin and who he is. And could we go into

22 private session for the answer to this question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could the witness be shown the next

25 two exhibits, that is, an exhibit dated 24 May 1992 and an exhibit dated

1 1st June 1992.

2 Q. In regard to the exhibit dated 1st June 1992, I note that that

3 already has a Prosecution exhibit number, and that is P188.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's no [Realtime transcript read in error

5 "I'll"] need to assign another number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: P333.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I expressed myself poorly when I said

8 I'll need to assign. I said no need to assign another number.

9 MR. MARGETTS:

10 Q. Witness, do you have before you a document headed "meeting of the

11 Garici branch office," which is in handwriting?

12 Witness, could you look at the first -- or the second paragraph on

13 that document, which is marked with the number 1, and states: "The

14 commander of the Maslovare military unit, Slobodan Zupljanin, informed the

15 citizens." Is that accurate? Was Slobodan Zupljanin the commander of the

16 Maslovare unit?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could I refer you further down in the minutes of this meeting to

19 comments made by one Ibrahim Nusinovic wherein he asked what the role of

20 the military unit stationed at Maslovare would be if Kotor Varos were

21 united with the Krajina and if the party leaderships did not reach an

22 agreement.

23 Witness, what was the situation in the Krajina and what was the

24 organisation of this unit at that time, and did you see any role for that

25 unit at that time?

1 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, it might be better if that question is

2 broken up one at a time rather than giving the witness a compound question

3 of that nature.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, would you follow that suggestion, or

5 would you think the question should be put in the way that you did?

6 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I was content with the question. I

7 think the witness could understand it and provide a reasonable answer, but

8 I'm happy also to abide by my learned friend's suggestions.

9 Q. Witness, what -- as at 24 May 1992, what role did you think the

10 Maslovare unit could play?

11 A. This unit was mobilised mostly from the ranks of ethnic Serbs.

12 There were only few Muslims and Croats there who mostly came from mixed

13 marriages. The role of this unit was to ensure peace and security in the

14 area of Kotor Varos municipality.

15 Q. In light of the situation in the Krajina, if agreement was not

16 reached between the parties, what role may have this unit composed chiefly

17 of Serbs played?

18 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I object on the basis of -- it's

19 speculative and it's also -- has the danger of being rather a tendentious

20 question in the sense of looking back as opposed to the view at the time.

21 The witness has given his view at the time, but I would object, both on

22 the basis of the speculative nature of the question and the inherent

23 danger of forming conclusions based on subsequent events.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 144, you've seen and it has been read to you

1 what Mr. Ibrahim Nusinovic asked at that time about the role of the

2 military units stationed in Maslovare. Did you at that time have an

3 answer to the question that was put by Mr. Nusinovic? Would you know an

4 answer to that question? If so, please give it to us. If not, please

5 tell us.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this period of time, in the

7 surrounding municipalities that had not joined the Serbian Republic, we

8 heard some information over Radio Zagreb that there were clashes between

9 the army and the Muslim and Croat populations. And this citizens [as

10 interpreted] put this question quite rightly, because he was concerned

11 that the same role would be assumed by this particular army unit that was

12 there.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. What specific role was he concerned that this army unit would

16 perform?

17 A. This unit could have been used for the purposes of the Serbian

18 army and not as a Yugoslav People's Army.

19 Q. Was this unit later used for the purposes of the Serbian army?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to refer the witness to the

22 next exhibit that he has before him, which is Exhibit 188.

23 Q. Witness, I'd like you to look at the last page of the document,

24 and moving backwards, refer to the fourth paragraph from the bottom of the

25 document. This paragraph reads as follows. It refers to the positions of

1 the 122nd Light Brigade and states: "Some of the forces from this unit

2 sealed off Kotor Varos where division had occurred within the SDA ranks.

3 Some of the armed extremists want armed operations, while some of the

4 decent Muslims are in favour of peaceful coexistence with the Serbs."

5 As at 1 June 1992, was there division within the SDA ranks?

6 A. No.

7 Q. As at 1st June 1992, did some members of the SDA want armed

8 operations or did they not?

9 MS. LOUKAS: Well, perhaps, Your Honour, we also require there "to

10 your knowledge."

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, if you ask a question to a witness,

12 if it's not about himself, it's always to the witness's knowledge. So I

13 think that that goes without saying. If not really needed, I would rather

14 you to let Mr. Margetts put the questions he wants. And if there's really

15 some technical issue that of course you can object, but this was one which

16 was not really necessary.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

18 MS. LOUKAS: I don't mind losing the occasional one, Your Honour.

19 MR. MARGETTS:

20 Q. Witness, I'll restate the question. As at 1st June 1992, were

21 there members at the SDA in Kotor Varos who wanted armed operations to

22 begin?

23 A. No, there weren't.

24 Q. Why was that?

25 A. The Muslims wanted to have peace in Kotor Varos.

1 Q. As at 1st June 1992, what was the situation for the Muslims in

2 Kotor Varos in terms of their association with neighbouring

3 municipalities?

4 A. You mean the relations among the Muslims?

5 Q. No, not the relations among the Muslims, but in terms of the

6 preceding question relating to the desire of the Muslims to avoid armed

7 operations, what did the Muslims anticipate if armed operations occurred

8 in the area of Kotor Varos?

9 A. The Muslims in Kotor Varos were afraid of possible armed conflicts

10 around Kotor Varos. That's why we suggested that the municipality of

11 Kotor Varos remain neutral until such time as the final solution is found

12 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Because we're a small municipality that

13 doesn't mean anything to anyone.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the next exhibit is a video exhibit,

15 and there are various are excerpts that I'd like to play from the video.

16 We may be able to play one of those excerpts prior to the break.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you think you could do that in the next five

18 minutes, we'll start then with the first excerpt.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. Let's proceed, then, if we can,

20 with the next video extract, which is the next exhibit listed.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P334.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would that be for the whole of the video or just for

23 the first excerpt?

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, as I understand, currently we have

25 five excerpts, so if they could be numbered .1 through to .5.

1 JUDGE ORIE: So this one then would be -- the whole of it would

2 be P334 and the first part to be played would be P334.1

3 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just corrected on that.

4 There are in fact six excerpts.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 1 to 6 then. Well, during the break I take it

6 that some solution will be found by Madam Registrar, your case manager.

7 We'll play the first video part.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: I have to ask to stop this playing of the video. We

10 need the translation to be read as well, because it will be then

11 translated into French. But if it's just on our screen, we'll only have

12 the B/C/S, no English appears in the transcript. So could we restart

13 that. And did you provide the interpreters with the text of the --

14 otherwise they can read it on the bottom of the -- of course, they can

15 listen and read it at the bottom of the video, although it's always to be

16 preferred if they have a hard copy in front of them.

17 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. They have been provided with a

18 hard copy.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you should have interrupted me

20 immediately and said yes, they have been provided with that. So the

21 explanation why it's important was not needed, therefore, any more.

22 Could we restart, and could I ask the interpreters to read aloud

23 for the transcript the English text.

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, this is taking a little bit longer

25 than I had anticipated.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's finish this first one then and have a break.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The mopping up operations in the area

4 around Kotor Varos continued today. In a lightning operation, members of

5 a special detachment of the Banja Luka security services centre and the

6 army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina took Bilice, one of

7 the best fortified strongholds of the Croat extremists. The specials and

8 the army had only one person injured in this operation whereas the enemy

9 had some 50 fatalities and a large number of wounded. The mopping up

10 continues, and there are only three entrenched strongholds of the Croat

11 Muslim outlaws left. In the town itself the situation is gradually

12 returning to normal. Although movement is still allowed only from 9 to

13 11.00, life is slowly returning to the streets of Kotor Varos.

14 Yesterday Muslim and Croat forces allegedly wanted to negotiate

15 with the Serb side about the cessation of war and establishing peace in

16 these parts. The army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

17 and the police accepted the invitation and set off for the meeting,

18 believing that an understanding was possible. Only a few kilometres from

19 Kotor Varos, our concealed hosts, Muslim extremists, waited hidden in

20 ambushes and treacherously and perfidiously opened fire on the army and

21 police troops.

22 In this perfidious attack one person was killed and a number of

23 specials and soldiers wounded. Today Captain Slobodan Zupljanin is also

24 in the Banja Luka hospital. We first went to visit Captain Zupljanin, who

25 is currently ...

1 MR. MARGETTS:

2 Q. Witness, you've seen that segment. Were you aware of any armed

3 combat operations that were taking place between Muslim and Serb forces in

4 Kotor Varos in 1992, and if so, how did you become aware?

5 A. Yes. From the area in which I lived, I saw the village of Bilice

6 being attacked, which was referred to in this excerpt that we have just

7 seen. Likewise, you could see clashes, or rather, the shelling of

8 villages along the slopes of the mountains surrounding Kotor Varos itself.

9 Those were Muslim villages.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions on that matter.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have a break until a quarter

12 past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed that as far as the exhibit number

16 concerns, that the video, in contradiction to what I said before the

17 break, will have one number, and the transcript will have that same

18 number, and the letter "A" added. Madam Registrar, that would then be

19 number?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P334 for the CD and

21 P334.A for the transcript.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also do understand that the transcript has

23 been provided to us now in a different form and that we'll get the B/C/S

24 version in a similar form. But only by today. Although the text as such

25 is already available now to Mr. Krajisnik.

1 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

2 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. It's the English translation

3 that is in the appropriate form.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. MARGETTS: And it is the B/C/S transcript that is -- will be

6 replaced tomorrow in the appropriate form.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'd like to

9 play the second part of the video, if I could.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] To be quite frank, I supposed that it

12 could happen and we could be waylaid, but we never expected it at that

13 place because the place we were supposed to go to, we were to meet at, is

14 much better for an ambush. So that it came as a surprise. I am aware,

15 though, after all the situations in the West Slavonian theatre of war from

16 which I had come that the enemy will resort to any method, any means, any

17 way to destroy and liquidate us systematically, step by step."

18 MR. MARGETTS:

19 Q. Witness, do you recognise the man depicted on that segment of the

20 video?

21 A. Yes, I do. That is Slobodan Zupljanin.

22 Q. You've previously described to the Court who Slobodan Zupljanin

23 is. After June 1992, and before December 1992, did you at any time meet

24 with Slobodan Zupljanin?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Where were you at the time, and could you describe to the Court

2 the meeting.

3 A. At that time, I was detained in the municipal prison behind the

4 court building in Kotor Varos. Ahmed Cirkic and myself were placed in

5 front of the bars in the prison itself, and on the other side of the bars

6 there was Slobodan Zupljanin and Muhamed Sadikovic. It was then that I

7 found out that Muhamed Sadikovic and those who opposed the Serb army had

8 handed over their weapons, that they would be taken to Travnik. Zupljanin

9 brought Sadikovic there for him to see that both myself and Ahmed Cirkic

10 were still alive.

11 Q. At approximately what date did that meeting occur?

12 A. It may have been in late November. I can't remember the exact

13 date.

14 Q. Whilst you were detained from July 1992 through to December 1992,

15 did any of the guards mention to you Slobodan Zupljanin, and if so, in

16 what context?

17 A. Yes, there was a reference to him. In the elementary school

18 building, where I was first detained, on several occasions, groups of

19 Muslims were brought in from the Vrbanjci area, more specifically,

20 Hanifici and Dabovci. Guards would enter the hall. It was a gym. And

21 whatever they were told, the rest of us could hear too. The guards told

22 the people assembled there that their release or their transport by

23 convoys would be decided by Slobodan Zupljanin and that it hinged upon his

24 decision.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we'd like to play the third part of

2 the video.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, with the assistance of the technicians.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] On this occasion, I want to point out

6 that we have met with outstanding cooperation even among those people, but

7 unfortunately, our experience in two villages where we managed to reach an

8 understanding was that units of the interior ministry of the Serb Republic

9 of Krajina and members of my unit were fired on from these villages so

10 that we had to respond appropriately.

11 MR. MARGETTS:

12 Q. Witness, do you recognise the person depicted in that segment?

13 A. Yes, I do. This is Lieutenant Colonel Peulic.

14 Q. You've previously described to the Court who Lieutenant Colonel

15 Bosko Peulic was. Was any reference made to him by anyone during the

16 course of your detention in Kotor Varos?

17 A. Yes. The detainees who were being brought in from the Vrbanjci

18 area said that this Serb unit in the Kotor Varos area was commanded by

19 Peulic, that he was the main commander of that unit.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. MARGETTS: I'd like to play the next part of the video.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Mr. Brdjanin, tell us: Why did you

24 come and how do you see the latest developments in the Kotor Varos

25 municipality? Mr. Brdjanin: Let me tell you, my duty as the president of

1 the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region is to visit all the fronts. I

2 must admit that most of the time I was in the corridor leading to Serbia,

3 but simply, my visit, the reason for my coming here is that every Monday I

4 must inform the presidents of all the crisis staffs about the political

5 situation in this area. We must clean up our area, which unquestionably

6 includes Kotor Varos and Jajce. And the most important battle which is

7 under way and which I attended yesterday is the breakthrough to Serbia.

8 Simply, we can see for ourselves that there can be no more negotiations

9 with those waging war against us. Those who took up arms must be

10 defeated, hand themselves over, and total Serb authority must rule here.

11 MR. MARGETTS:

12 Q. Do you recognise the person depicted in that segment?

13 A. Yes. That is Radoslav Brdjanin.

14 Q. Did you ever meet with Radoslav Brdjanin?

15 A. No. I know him from the media.

16 Q. At the conclusion of his comments, he said that "total Serb

17 authority must rule here," referring to the area of Kotor Varos. As at

18 July 1992, was that the situation in Kotor Varos?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. MARGETTS: I'd like to play the next segment of the video.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] We requested the political structures

24 to do whatever is necessary to avoid possible conflicts when facilities

25 could be destroyed, where people could get killed and so on. However, I

1 must say that the other side has accepted this activity of ours, at least

2 in part. A number of extremists, however, have taken to the woods and

3 refuse to place themselves under control or to return weapons.

4 MR. MARGETTS:

5 Q. Witness, do you recognise the speaker in that segment, and if so,

6 can you describe who he is and what he is role was.

7 A. Yes, I recognise the speaker. The speaker is Stojan Zupljanin. Up

8 to the conflict, he used to be the chief of the security services centre

9 in Banja Luka. He hails from Maslovare local commune, Kotor Varos

10 municipality.

11 Q. After the conflict began, what was his role?

12 A. I believe he retained his previous position, the one that he had

13 held up to the beginning of conflict, as chief of the security services

14 centre in Banja Luka.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to play the final segment of

16 the video.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Margetts.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] This surprise visit by the Krajina

20 leadership to the Serbian soldiers testifies to a synchronised

21 cooperation. The officers and men of the Serbian armed formations, in

22 addition to activities for the liberation of the Serb territories, are

23 also directly involved in the establishment of a corridor to Serbia as one

24 of the greatest operations in the history of the Serb people.

25 MR. MARGETTS:

1 Q. Witness 144, the camera in that segment panned from right to left,

2 and there were a number of people sitting at the table. Did you recognise

3 any of those people, and if so, who did you recognise?

4 A. Yes. First of all, I recognised Radoslav Brdjanin. Next to him,

5 there was a person seated that looked to me like Radovan Karadzic.

6 Further, there was a person called Savo Tepic, and next to him, Mane

7 Tepic, his brother.

8 Q. Who was Savo Tepic?

9 A. Before the beginning of the clashes in Kotor Varos, Savo Tepic was

10 chief of the public security service in Kotor Varos, a position in which

11 he remained following the outbreak of clashes. But by then, it was a Serb

12 police force.

13 Q. Who was Mane Tepic?

14 A. Before the outbreak of clashes in Kotor Varos, Mane Tepic was the

15 chief of the Territorial Defence.

16 Q. After the outbreak of clashes, do you know what role Mane Tepic

17 occupied?

18 A. I don't know exactly.

19 Q. Before we leave the video, I would just like to refer you to the

20 concluding remarks in the segment that depicted Captain Slobodan Zupljanin

21 and ask for your comment in respect of those remarks. Zupljanin stated

22 that: "The enemy would resort to any method, any means, any way to

23 destroy and liquidate us systematically, step by step."

24 As at July 1992, were you aware of any systematic plan to

25 eliminate the Serbs in Kotor Varos?

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, could you replay the last excerpt from

3 the video?

4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] This surprise visit by the Krajina

7 leadership to the Serbian soldiers testifies to a synchronised

8 cooperation. The officers and men of the Serbian armed formations, in

9 addition to activities for the liberation of the Serb territories, are

10 also directly involved in the establishment of a corridor to Serbia as one

11 of the greatest operations in the history of the Serb people.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber asked for it, Mr. Margetts, because the

13 Chamber wanted to understand the testimony, especially in respect of

14 recognition of Mr. Karadzic. Could you perhaps have that replayed and

15 perhaps stop it at the place where the witness thinks he recognises

16 Mr. Karadzic, so that we can at least follow his testimony in more detail.

17 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We will attempt to do so.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I know that it's sometimes difficult, but ...

19 Witness, could I ask you: Whenever the point comes that you see

20 the person you said you thought you recognised as Mr. Karadzic, would you

21 then please say "stop" so that we can try to stop the video picture so

22 that you can explain which person you thought you recognised as

23 Mr. Karadzic.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that your testimony is that the

2 person we just saw in the middle of the video picture where it stopped,

3 that, in your opinion, you recognised Mr. Karadzic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said it appeared to me that

5 this might be Karadzic, which means I'm not 100 per cent certain.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understood that, that you were not certain,

7 but you thought it was him. Thank you very much.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Your Honour, I'd like to present to the witness the next exhibit,

11 which is the exhibit dated 15 August.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P335.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could I just ask the registrar to

14 check that exhibit and see that it is the 54th session of the War

15 Presidency dated 15 August.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We received, and I see Madam Registrar has the same

17 document.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I noticed that in many, many

20 translations, names are in capitals, where they do not appear in the

21 original as capitals. I'm not asking you to change all that, but even in

22 one of the documents we see that -- and I'm referring to P332, under

23 item 2, that even what seems to be the family name is not in capitals, but

24 the first name. So even mistakes are made in making the family names in

25 capitals. It's not a major issue, but we don't need any changes in the

1 translation, especially because you do not recognise any more where in the

2 original capitals are used.

3 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. We will take note of

4 those comments and --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Not to change everything, but it doesn't add

6 anything. It confuses only.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness 144, this document that is before you is the extract from

9 the minutes of the 54th session of the War Presidency, held on 15 August

10 1992, and it's signed by Nedjeljko Djekanovic. Could you describe for me

11 who Nedjeljko Djekanovic is.

12 A. I met Nedjeljko Djekanovic (redacted)

13 (redacted). He became president of the SDS. Nedjeljko Djekanovic was a

14 Kotor Varos deputy to the Republican Assembly. Nedjeljko Djekanovic also

15 became president of the Crisis Staff following the outbreak of clashes in

16 Kotor Varos. Up to the outbreak, he had been a delegate in the Municipal

17 Assembly of Kotor Varos also.

18 Q. After the elections in late 1990, who was elected to be the deputy

19 in the republican assembly from Kotor Varos?

20 A. Nedjeljko Djekanovic.

21 Q. After the assembly of the Serbian people was formed at the

22 republican level, did Nedjeljko Djekanovic join that assembly?

23 A. I don't know exactly.

24 Q. I'd like to refer you to item 2 in this document that is before

25 you, and you will see the last two paragraphs of this document refer to a

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1 report from battalion commander Zupljanin. He refers to an attack by

2 extremists. In the final paragraph it reads as follows: "As regards the

3 group of civilians taken out of the Vrbanjci area, instructions were given

4 that they be transported to Vlasic in the course of the day and sent

5 towards Travnik."

6 Is that consistent with anything you heard during 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'd also like to refer you to the first paragraph of item 2, where

9 it refers to Savo Tepic and the fact that he spoke of the situation in the

10 SJB, public security station, or, more precisely, about the security

11 situation, as at August 1992. You've previously described to the Court

12 who Savo Tepic was. Between July and August 1992, did you see Savo Tepic,

13 and if so, where did you see him and what was he doing?

14 A. Yes, I did see him. I saw him the next day after my arrest, at

15 the Kotor Varos public security station. I saw him, and he came to our

16 place of detention in the school building. They would take us from the

17 school building to clean the toilets at the public security station. So

18 while I was doing that, I saw Savo. He was going about his duties as

19 chief of the public security station.

20 Q. During the course of your detention at the school, did you see him

21 present in the school building?

22 A. Yes. On one occasion, he came to visit the guards as we were

23 cleaning the guards' room. They would take us out to clean their room.

24 Q. What was the nature of the relationship between Savo Tepic and the

25 guards?

1 A. I assume that he gave them orders.

2 Q. I'd just like to refer you back to the final paragraph of item 2,

3 wherein it commences: "As regards the group of civilians taken out of the

4 Vrbanjci area." You stated that you heard about this matter. Can you

5 describe the group of civilians and what nationality they were?

6 A. There was a group of civilians that was brought to the elementary

7 school in Kotor Varos from the Hanifici area. This group stayed with us

8 for several days. They told us that their wives and children had been

9 arrested separately and taken to a different place, after which they had

10 been deported to Travnik.

11 Q. What nationality was this group of civilians?

12 A. They were Muslims.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present the next exhibit

14 to this witness. It's the document dated 8 August 1992.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P336.

16 MR. MARGETTS:

17 Q. Witness, this is a precis of the minutes of the 51st meeting of

18 the War Presidency, held on 8 August 1992 in Kotor Varos. At item 4, the

19 second matter reads as follows. It states: "Savo reported on the

20 unsanitary conditions in the prison." Can you tell the Court who you

21 think Savo would be.

22 A. I assume this must be Savo Tepic.

23 Q. The reference refers to unsanitary conditions in the prison.

24 Whilst you were detained in the prison, were the conditions unsanitary,

25 and if so, could you describe them to the Court.

1 A. Yes. The conditions were unsanitary. We were put up in the

2 elementary school building. There were over a hundred detainees there.

3 There was no running water. It wasn't possible for us to wash ourselves.

4 We were taken to the toilet by the guards, and the pipes didn't work

5 properly. We were given drinking water every second day. We would share

6 among ourselves whatever we were given. We were given a crate of fruit

7 juice which amounted to about two decilitres per day per prisoners. We

8 slept rough on the floor. I had traces of blood on my body, because I had

9 been beaten and tortured. I was unable to wash these off for more than

10 two months, simply because there was no water. This would be a thumbnail

11 sketch of the unsanitary conditions in the prison.

12 Once in this prison in the elementary school building, there was a

13 man who came and walked into the hall in which we were detained. He told

14 us that he was stationed with his unit at the medical centre, a building

15 which was just behind the school building. He did not beat us, but he

16 realised what our situation was, and he had a word with the guards,

17 telling the guards to allow us to at least wash ourselves, because there

18 was a danger. He told them that we could infect them too.

19 He stated his name. I did not remember his name, but I remember

20 precisely that he said he was from Krusevac, which is a town in Serbia.

21 He said, "I can hardly wait to leave this place and go back to my wife and

22 children, and I wish you could do the same as soon as possible too."

23 Q. Your answer describes the conditions in the elementary school

24 building. What were the conditions like in the prison?

25 A. After I had spent two months at the school, we were transferred to

1 the building of the municipal prison there, situated behind the building

2 of the court. Upon our arrival there, I was put up into room number 1,

3 where there was some 50 detainees. The area of the room was some 4.5 by

4 6.5 metres. There was no room for us to lie down. The doors were locked.

5 We were taken to the toilets by the guards when they thought or saw it

6 fitting. There was no water at all in the prison, and the water was

7 supplied to us in the same way as in the school when we were detained

8 there. There were many detainees in the prison, a great many of them.

9 Those who were in room number 1 before I had arrived there told me that

10 there was some 80 of them. We slept on the floor. We used the little

11 space that we had. We were crowded like sardines. Preferably someone had

12 to stand up in order for the others to lie down.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present to the witness the

14 next two exhibits, the first exhibit being the document dated 15 June

15 1992, and the second dated 20 June 1992. And if the second document could

16 be provided under seal.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The first document will be P337, and the second

18 document, P338, under seal.

19 MR. MARGETTS:

20 Q. Witness 144, could I refer you to the first document with the

21 cover page stating "decision permitting citizens freedom of movement in

22 the town from 9.00 a.m. to 11.00 a.m." And I note that this is a decision

23 of the Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos dated 15 June 1992. I'd like to refer

24 you to the first paragraph, and it states that: "Citizens are hereby

25 permitted freedom of movement in the town from 9.00 a.m. to 11.00 a.m."

1 Were you informed of this decision?

2 A. With the establishment of the Crisis Staff and after the takeover

3 of Kotor Varos by the Serbs, a fire engine passed through the town that

4 had a megaphone placed on it, and there they informed the citizens of the

5 establishment of the Crisis Staff and of the rules regulating their

6 freedom of movement. And with the emphasis on the freedom of movement.

7 Q. Was the information provided consistent with this decision of

8 15 June 1992?

9 A. As far as I can remember, starting from the 15th of June, this

10 vehicle was providing citizens with the information over the megaphone in

11 the zone controlled by the Serbs.

12 Q. Thank you. I'd like to refer you to the next document.

13 MR. MARGETTS: And Your Honour, before I ask this question, if we

14 could go into private session.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

16 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Margetts.

13 MR. MARGETTS:

14 Q. In your statement, Witness 144, you refer to various meetings with

15 Zdravko Samardzija. You refer to a meeting with Komljenovic was present.

16 That's at paragraph 108. You refer to his presence at the police station.

17 That's paragraph 114. And you refer to him ordering confinement at

18 paragraph 119. Can you describe to the Court who Zdravko Samardzija was

19 and what his role in Kotor Varos was.

20 A. I saw Zdravko Samardzija for the first time several days after the

21 outbreak of clashes in Kotor Varos, when he came with Tomjenovic [phoen]

22 to Kotor Varos, to Cepak, where he stated his full name and he said that

23 he was a lawyer and worked at the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka,

24 and that the residents of Cepak were supposed to hand over their weapons

25 and that nothing would happen to them, that the process would be carried

1 out quickly and that life would return to normal in Kotor Varos.

2 The second encounter was the one I just described, when I was

3 given a permit for the freedom of movement by him.

4 The third encounter with Zdravko Samardzija was on the occasion of

5 my second arrest, when I was arrested and taken to the police station. It

6 was then that I realised that Zdravko Samardzija was in command of all the

7 Special Forces, special police forces that were present in the area.

8 As I was being taken out of the truck that took me there, because

9 a truck took me from my home, because I had again returned home, and that

10 was the next time I saw Zdravko Samardzija again. And he asked me, "Well,

11 what are you doing here?" His subordinate, Nenad Kajkut, grabbed me by my

12 hair, the back of my hair, and hit me in the head very strongly. Then he

13 took me into the police station, to the first room on the right. There

14 were several other detainees standing in the corridor with their backs

15 facing the wall. They were actually -- the palms of their hands were

16 leaning against the wall, just with three fingers stretched out. They

17 took me into this room, where I saw two members of the Serb Special

18 Forces. They started beating me, and it went on for hours. Amidst the

19 beating and the strikes, they kept asking me about my colleagues from the

20 SDA, about what I knew about them, what I knew about the neighbours who

21 left their homes and took to the woods.

22 This went on for hours. At a certain point, Zdravko Samardzija

23 appeared at the doorstep and told the other two - one of them was Ostoja

24 Verbica [phoen], the other Danko Kajkut. I learnt their names later on.

25 I did not know them from before. Samardzija told them, "Don't kill him.

1 I need limb alive because I need to interrogate him."

2 They continued beating me upon Samardzija's departure. In some 15

3 minutes, the doors opened again and Zdravko Samardzija appeared holding a

4 pistol in his hand, pointed the pistol at them and said, "Did you hear

5 what I said? I need him alive." And he went out again.

6 I saw Samardzija Zdravko once again the following day, or rather,

7 I failed to say that on that same day at 10.00 in the evening, Zdravko

8 Samardzija took us to a room that was that same solitary cell where they

9 locked me the first time. Now there were 17 people in that room that was

10 of an area of maybe 1 by 1.5 metres. There was no air there, because

11 there were only a few holes in the wall. We started suffocating and

12 banging against the door.

13 Later on they transferred us to an office in the police station,

14 where we spent the night. Zdravko Samardzija told us, "You will spend the

15 night here and then we'll see what we're going to do with you tomorrow."

16 The following day, we spent the whole day standing in front of the

17 police station under an awning that was basically a parking place for a

18 police vehicle. I had the opportunity of seeing many Serbs from

19 Kotor Varos, including Zdravko Samardzija, who kept entering and leaving

20 the building, whereas the members of the Special Forces who were in

21 command of Zdravko Samardzija would come, approach us, beat us, and then

22 go away, return, beat us again. And this was an eternal day of suffering

23 for us.

24 Q. Witness, could I just stop you there. You stated that the Special

25 Forces were under the command of Samardzija. Whilst you were detained in

1 the school, following your detention in the police station, and whilst you

2 were detained in the prison, subsequent to your detention in the school,

3 did you see Samardzija or did you see the members of the Special Forces?

4 A. The members of the Special Forces came to the school where we were

5 detained and to the prison when I was subsequently transferred there.

6 Zdravko Samardzija came only in the first couple of days. Later on, we

7 didn't see him any more. One of the guards, we knew these guards because

8 these guards used to be our workmates, we learnt from them that Zdravko

9 Samardzija went to Jajce, the town of Jajce, and Zdravko Samardzija's role

10 was taken by Slobodan Dubocanin. Slobodan Dubocanin frequently came to

11 the school where we were detained, accompanied by several members of the

12 Special Forces, calling out individuals into the corridor to beat them,

13 including myself. And this went on for two months, for the duration of

14 our detention at the school, the elementary school.

15 Q. Thank you. When you were detained at the police station, you

16 referred to --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Sorry. Microphone is now on.

19 Q. When you were detained at the police station, you referred to

20 several other detainees. What was the nationality of the detainees?

21 A. The first day, the first time I was taken to the police station,

22 that was on the 7th of July, I saw several persons in the corridor who

23 were also brought in, who were ethnic Croats, and there were also two

24 Muslims.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present --

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1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. MARGETTS: Sorry. Your Honour, I'd like to present the next

3 two exhibits to the witness. They're the conclusion on resettlement dated

4 18 June 1992, and the statement of Safet Smajlovic dated 21 August 1992.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit numbers P339 and P340.

7 MR. MARGETTS:

8 Q. Witness, the document dated 18 June 1992 is a conclusion of the

9 Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos, and it refers to arrangement for the

10 resettlement of Rasim Mehmedovic to Zagreb through the resettlement

11 agency. Did you know Rasim Mehmedovic?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did he leave Kotor Varos?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did you first hear of the resettlement agency?

16 A. I heard when the vehicle drove by, that I described before, where

17 there was a PA system mounted, saying that all citizens of Croat and

18 Muslim ethnicity who wished to leave Kotor Varos municipality and had done

19 nothing against the Serb people were free to do so by registering with the

20 Red Cross office. This was probably a reference to this agency. But I

21 was not familiar with the existence of this specific agency.

22 Q. What was the nationality of Rasim Mehmedovic?

23 A. He was a Muslim.

24 Q. I'd like to refer you to the next document, dated 21 August 1992,

25 which is a statement from Safet Smajlovic in relation to his departure

1 from Kotor Varos. And it states at the second substantial paragraph,

2 under the numbered points 1 to 11: "I wish to move away and I leave

3 behind my land in Kotor and my destroyed house." And then states that

4 he's taking with him various members of his family.

5 Did you hear, as at August 1992, about conditions that may have

6 been imposed on those that wished to leave Kotor Varos?

7 A. During that period of time, and specifically, on the 21st of

8 August, I was in detention. But before I was detained, I had heard of

9 people who wished to do just that, and they had to get themselves

10 registered, and the condition imposed was that they voluntarily hand over

11 all their property to the Serbian Republic. And they were supposed to

12 leave the key to their flat or house at the centre to which they were

13 supposed to report. And they had to cover the transport charges as far as

14 wherever it was that they wished to go.

15 In 99 per cent of the cases, the destination was Travnik.

16 Q. Did you know Safet Smajlovic, and if so, do you know what

17 nationality he was?

18 A. Yes, I knew him. He is a Muslim.

19 Q. I'd like to proceed to the next exhibit, Your Honour, which is a

20 document dated 19 June 1992.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P341.

22 MR. MARGETTS:

23 Q. Witness 144, this document before you is an extract from the

24 minutes of the 26th session of the Kotor Varos Crisis Staff held on

25 19 June 1992. In the second -- in the first item, in the second

1 paragraph, there is information provided by Mane Tepic as follows: "He

2 informed the Crisis Staff on yesterday's activities by units that are in

3 the Kotor Varos area and pointed out that the Rujika had been cleaned out

4 and taken yesterday, that a soldier from the village of Tesic had been

5 captured and taken away and that six soldiers had been surrounded because

6 they had not retreated in time."

7 Do you have any information about events that took place in June

8 1992 in Rujika?

9 A. Rujika, I mean the place, is at a distance of about 500 or 600

10 metres from my house, as the crow flies. Therefore, standing at the

11 window of my house, I could see clearly what was going on over there. In

12 those days, I saw that an attack had been carried out, very similar to the

13 one that had been launched against Cepak. And now it was Rujika. There

14 was a blue APC with "police" written on it and it was used by special

15 police forces to enter the Rujika area, or rather, Kotoriste.

16 Allow me to explain, to be more specific about this. There is a

17 hillock behind the hotel in Kotor Varos, and the name of that hillock is

18 Rujika. Behind that hillock, or mound, which was a favourite weekend

19 destination in town, there is another neighbourhood that belongs to the

20 town, and this neighbourhood is called Kotoriste. I could see clearly

21 that some people were being taken out of their houses, that some houses

22 had been set fire to, and that some of the inhabitants of Kotoriste had

23 probably fled.

24 Q. Witness, can I just interrupt you for a moment. Was Kotoriste a

25 Muslim or a Croat village?

1 A. It was a Croat village.

2 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to move to the next exhibit,

3 and that is document dated 21st June 1992.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P342.

5 MR. MARGETTS: This exhibit is an extract from the minutes of the

6 31st meeting of the Kotor Varos Crisis Staff.

7 Q. Witness, I'd like to refer you to the last paragraph under the

8 heading "item 2," where it states: "It was concluded that Savo should

9 invite Ljuban or Zdravko to the next Crisis Staff meeting and he was then

10 given the task of briefing Stojan Z on problems we are experiencing and

11 scheduling a meeting, attendance at which should be ensured from the

12 following persons in addition to KS members: Brdjanin, Peulic, Zupljanin,

13 and other competent people who might be able to help the KS in addressing

14 these problems."

15 From the context of that paragraph, are you able to identify who

16 Savo, Ljuban, and Zdravko were?

17 A. I can assume that it is Savo Tepic. As for Ljuban, this could be

18 a reference to Ljuban Ecim, who was a member of a special police unit,

19 alongside with Slobodan Dubocanin, and he would come to the prison very

20 often while we were detained at the school building.

21 The third person could have been Zdravko Samardzija.

22 Q. When Ljuban Ecim came to the school building, what did he do?

23 A. He was usually not alone. He would usually have several members

24 of the Special Forces with him. They would take prisoners out, question

25 them, beat them, and then send them back to their cells.

1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to proceed to the next

2 exhibit, which is a document dated 24 June 1992.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 343.

4 MR. MARGETTS:

5 Q. This document is the extract from the minutes of the 36th session

6 of the Crisis Staff, held on 24 June 1992. I note that in the

7 introductory paragraph it refers to the presence of Inspector Pejic, and

8 under item 3, it states that Inspector Pejic informed the Crisis Staff

9 about the work of the security service and the results of the questioning

10 of the persons who had been brought in.

11 Witness 144, do you know who this Inspector Pejic is, and if so,

12 when did you either meet with him or see him?

13 A. Inspector Pejic is Zdravko Pejic. A long time ago he used to work

14 with the Kotor Varos SUP ministry of the secretariat of the interior. He

15 worked on the issuing of identity cards and travel documents. He was then

16 promoted and became inspector of the social security services. I can't be

17 sure when, but it was probably 1980-something that he retired. Following

18 the outbreak of clashes in Kotor Varos, he was appointed inspector with

19 the public security station in Kotor Varos, and his authority was far

20 superior to that of other inspectors. He was the one who interrogated

21 prisoners. He was the one who approved their detention or release. He

22 would take them away for interrogation, along with other police officers.

23 The police officers would beat them, and meanwhile, he would interrogate

24 them.

25 While he was at the prison, I met him. I can't give you the exact

1 number of times, but certainly very many times, once a week, at least,

2 probably even more.

3 Q. Did the guards ever say anything to you in respect of Zdravko

4 Pejic?

5 A. Yes. The guards used to tell us that our fate hinged on Zdravko

6 Pejic. He took part in the negotiations for exchanges when prisoners were

7 exchanged, as well as the last one, when we were eventually exchanged.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present to the witness the

9 next two exhibits. One is dated 26 June 1992, and the other is a lengthy

10 document, headed "list of camp prisoners in Kotor Varos from 11 June 1992

11 onwards."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: The first document will be Prosecution Exhibit

14 number P344, and the second document, P345.

15 MR. MARGETTS:

16 Q. Witness 144, first of all, I'd like to refer you to the lengthy

17 list. Is this a list that you prepared; and if so, can you describe to

18 the Court when you prepared it and what it describes.

19 A. Yes. This is a list of prisoners in the elementary school prison,

20 as well as the prison behind the court building. I was the one who drew

21 it up. It contains the names of persons who were detained in those

22 prisons that I was familiar with. I produced this list following my

23 release, or rather, once I had been exchanged and taken to a transit

24 centre in Karlovac, Croatia. All the names from Kotor Varos, from the

25 centre, from Cepak, from Kotoriste, from Kukavica, from Donja Varos, all

1 these names were recorded by myself personally.

2 As for the other part, in reference to the village of Vrbanjci, I

3 was assisted by (redacted), people who are actually

4 from that area and were also detained with me in those camps.

5 Q. Witness 144, does this list represent a list of people that were

6 detained and deported from Kotor Varos?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is the nationality of the people on this list?

9 A. Muslims and Croats.

10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I've been alerted to the fact that

11 this is a document that we should place under seal, if we can do that.

12 And I apologise for not stating that earlier.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, it's tendered under seal.

14 MR. MARGETTS:

15 Q. Witness 144, I'd like to refer you to the other document that's

16 before you, dated 26 June 1992. And in particular, I'd like to refer you

17 to the entry under item 1 that refers to information from Dr. Gajanin and

18 Nedjeljko Djekanovic, and the information is as follows: Dr. Gajanin --

19 and just for clarity, this is the extract from the minutes of the 40th

20 session of the Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos on the 26th of June, 1992.

21 Dr. Gajanin informed the Crisis Staff of the situation as regards

22 casualties and reported on what had been done on the premises of the

23 health centre by members of the special unit which he had tried to prevent

24 but was driven away at gunpoint. Nedjeljko Djekanovic said that last

25 night he had told Dubocanin about everything going on at the health centre

1 and in the town and had been assured by him that it would be prevented.

2 He also said that all these questions had to be cleared up and

3 information provided on the behaviour of the members of the special unit

4 at the meeting with S. Zupljanin, the chief of the CSB, scheduled for

5 tomorrow. Zarko Mikic said the Crisis Staff had discussed the behaviour

6 of the members of the special unit on several occasions and were unable to

7 influence them, and he asked Lieutenant Colonel Peulic to help solve this

8 problem."

9 Do you know what happened at the health centre, and if so, can you

10 describe that to the Court.

11 A. What I know about what happened at the health centre I learned

12 after I had been transferred from the elementary school building to the

13 prison, which occurred in late August. In room 1, which was the room

14 where I was detained, I met some acquaintances of mine, some of whom had

15 witnessed this event on the 25th of June, 1992. It was Enes Terzic and

16 Sevel Djuvelek who were there that told me what happened. A group of

17 Muslims was brought to the health centre from a neighbourhood known as

18 Kukavica. They were brought within the health centre compound, escorted

19 by members of the Serb Special Forces, where they shot a number of them,

20 while others were tortured.

21 Enes showed me his leg. They unleashed a dog on him. The dog bit

22 him and he had deep scars from these dog bites. Sevel Djuvelek told me

23 that his father had been killed there. That was how I learned about that

24 event and what exactly happened at the health centre.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present to the witness the

1 last two documents I wish to present to him, and they are, firstly, a

2 document dated 30 June 1992; and secondly, a document dated 29 June 1992.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, could you give us an indication as well

4 on the time the examination-in-chief still might take. Because we are now

5 20 minutes to 6.00, would be the time for a break, unless you finish, it's

6 just a matter of these two documents.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. These are just two documents and

8 there will be a brief comment asked for and then the examination will be

9 finished.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, with the assistance of interpreters and

11 technicians, we might finish before the break and have a break a bit

12 later.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 THE REGISTRAR: The document dated 30 June 1992 will be

16 Prosecution Exhibit number P346, and the document dated 29 June 1992 will

17 be P347.

18 MR. MARGETTS:

19 Q. Witness 144 -- [French on English channel].

20 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, French translation is coming through

21 on channel 4.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I do receive the French translation at this moment on

23 channel 4, but it seems that now it's my own English voice again now I

24 hear.

25 Please proceed. So I take it that it is corrected.

1 MR. MARGETTS:

2 Q. Witness 144, the first document I'd like you to look at is the

3 extract from the minutes of the 48th meeting of the Crisis Staff of

4 Kotor Varos, held on 30th of June, 1992. There's a reference to the

5 attendance of Slobodan Dubocanin at this meeting, and the last item on

6 item 1 states that Kajkut is to be assigned to a unit. You have

7 previously mentioned two gentlemen by the name of Kajkut. What unit were

8 they involved with, and what was their relationship to Dubocanin?

9 A. During my time in detention, I met the Kajkut brothers, Nenad and

10 Danko. Nenad Kajkut had some sort of position of leadership. It is

11 difficult to tell exactly what the hierarchy was, but he was subordinate

12 to Zdravko Samardzija, and later on to Slobodan Dubocanin. Danko Kajkut,

13 on the other hand, was an ordinary member of the Special Forces. He

14 carried out their orders. And most of the time, he was beating us in the

15 camp.

16 Q. Were you beaten by Nenad Kajkut?

17 A. Yes. The first time he hit me was when I was first brought in, as

18 I've already described. He cracked me over the head.

19 Q. You've previously referred to the role of Savo Tepic as the police

20 commander. What was the relationship between Savo Tepic and the special

21 unit commanders Samardzija and Dubocanin?

22 A. They were all staying at the police station in Kotor Varos.

23 Members of the Special Forces were on the third floor of the police

24 station. And the Serb police, under the leadership of Savo Tepic, were

25 also in the same building, in the same offices where police officers used

1 to be before. There was cooperation between them, and the way I see it,

2 there were two different channels. There were some tasks that were

3 carried out by members of the Special Forces with no control or

4 supervision whatsoever from the ordinary police forces. Whenever we were

5 taken to clean the lavatories of the police station, we would normally be

6 beaten by members of the Special Forces. And whenever a member of the

7 ordinary police forces tried to aid us, they would be driven away,

8 invariably. That is what leads me to conclude that these were two

9 separate formations.

10 Q. Who was the Special Forces answering to?

11 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, rather than a question in that

12 form, perhaps a question directed to what the witness actually witnessed,

13 as opposed to that sort of generalised question. It's most important,

14 Your Honour, to have the actual observations of the witness as opposed to

15 a question of the nature of who was the Special Forces answering to.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, perhaps you'll first ask the witness

17 whether he has any knowledge based on what -- as to hierarchical

18 structures or practices.

19 MR. MARGETTS:

20 Q. Witness 144, did you observe the members of the special units

21 answering to any other authority than that of Dubocanin or Samardzija, and

22 what did you know about the relationship between Dubocanin or Samardzija

23 and other authority figures in Kotor Varos?

24 A. What I witnessed myself was that Zdravko Samardzija, for as long

25 as he was there, and then later Slobodan Dubocanin, had their own group of

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1 members of the Special Forces, and they had different clothes that

2 distinguished them from the remaining police units. They had camouflage

3 uniforms. Samardzija Zdravko, Dubocanin Slobodan, Kajkut, Nenad Kajkut,

4 Vrbica and the others had camouflage caps, which was a mark of distinction

5 in relation to their position in the hierarchy while all the other members

6 of the Special Forces wore ordinary caps. I never saw them answer to

7 anyone else for their actions, but the first time when I was brought in

8 for a second time and beaten at the police station, I was interrogated by

9 those members of the Special Forces and beaten by them. Whereas I was not

10 beaten by members of the Serbian police. However, we were guarded at the

11 camp by members of the Serb police, or rather, in the prison.

12 Q. Thank you. Just one brief question in respect of the next

13 document, and that is extract from the minutes of the 46th session of the

14 Crisis Staff held on 29 June 1992. Witness, you'll see on the agenda, at

15 number 2, it's marked "tasks for members of the Crisis Staff," and you'll

16 see the third paragraph from the bottom, it states: "Momcilo K and

17 Nedjo Dj were given the task of finding appropriate premises for the

18 accommodation of persons who have been arrested."

19 Could you assist the Court by telling them who you knew in the

20 Serbian authorities who had names consistent with the first name, Momcilo,

21 and the first initial of the surname K, and the first name Nedjo, and the

22 first initial of the surname Dj.

23 A. I know of only one Momcilo, Momcilo Komljenovic. I know of no

24 other Momcilo in Kotor Varos whose family name starts with a K. It can

25 therefore only be Momcilo Komljenovic.

1 The second person, Nedjo Dj, from among the Serbian leaders, it

2 can be Nedjo Djekanovic. I know of only one other Nedjo Dj. That is

3 Nedjo Djukic, who was one of the guards at the camp where I was held.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness 144.

5 MR. MARGETTS: And thank you, Your Honour. That completes the

6 examination-in-chief.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.

8 Ms. Loukas, after the break, we would have another 50 minutes.

9 Would you be able to start to cross-examine the witness?

10 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please put on your microphone.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. In fact, Your Honour, I indicated this morning

14 that in view of the circumstances, I didn't think that I would be doing

15 that.

16 I must say, Your Honour, we're already moving way ahead of

17 schedule this week. This witness was actually on the schedule I think for

18 today, tomorrow, and the day after. So -- and I actually think my

19 cross-examination won't be that long, but I'd like to finish looking at

20 the additional material before I start it, and I can assure Your Honour it

21 won't be a very long cross-examination tomorrow.

22 JUDGE ORIE: What would you have approximately in mind?

23 MS. LOUKAS: I would think no more than an hour, in all the

24 circumstances.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will allow you to start your

2 cross-examination tomorrow and has taken notice of the time that would be

3 needed, approximately, for that.

4 We have two items, I would say, on our agenda still, although,

5 Mr. Margetts, they do not specifically concern you. One of them is that

6 we would still hear about the exhibits where it was expected to hear about

7 that this afternoon. We could do that after the break. There are another

8 number of 92 bis statements to be read into the transcript. I think there

9 were six still pending. We could use our time for that. I think

10 Mr. Gaynor sent us -- or sent recently copies of the 92 bis summaries.

11 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I don't have them at hand. I will

12 retrieve them during the break.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that would be possible. Even if you're

14 ahead of schedule, Ms. Loukas, the Chamber prefers not to give that up and

15 to stay ahead of schedule.

16 Mr. Margetts.

17 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in light of the time that may be

18 available today, it may be fruitful for us to continue our discussions in

19 respect of the 89(F) summary, but also the witness statement of 144, and

20 maybe we could resolve that this evening as well.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since I take it that the 92 bis summaries are

22 now relatively short, that hearing the submissions in relation to the

23 P exhibits, 300 up to 303 I think it was -- no, 203. It might not take

24 that much time. Do the parties think that they would be able to reach any

25 conclusions as far as the 89(F) summary is concerned, well, let's say in

1 half an hour? Would that do?

2 MR. MARGETTS: That would be adequate for the Prosecution, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see Ms. Loukas is nodding as well. So we'll

5 then adjourn until 25 minutes past 6.00.

6 And Witness 144, we would like to see you back tomorrow, in the

7 afternoon, a quarter past 2.00, in this same courtroom. And I would like

8 to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony that you've

9 given thus far and that you're still about to give tomorrow.

10 We'll adjourn for half an hour.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.57 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 6.32 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I notice that we received the B/C/S version of the

14 video transcript.

15 Then have the parties agreed upon the 89(F) summary?

16 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we have agreed in respect of the 89(F)

17 summary, insofar as two of the paragraphs that were objected to, we found

18 a compromise for. A third paragraph, whether or not it goes in, depends

19 on the resolution of which paragraphs remain within the statement, and we

20 still haven't reached an agreement on that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you expect that you would reach an agreement

22 on the statement? I notice that especially in the statement there is a

23 lot of detail and background, and I don't know whether you consider it

24 feasible to reach an agreement on that.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we have reduced those background

1 paragraphs substantially. We've taken out a further nine paragraphs in

2 the document we've circulated today, which amounts probably to at least

3 three to four pages. However, we have decided that the other paragraphs

4 should remain, and it seems that the Defence is not persuaded to that

5 view.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would it be possible that the parties inform

7 the Chamber on what paragraphs are still in dispute, so that the Chamber

8 could look at those paragraphs specifically tomorrow morning, if there

9 would be any need to explain why or whether there are any specific

10 reasons, I would say half a word would do. At least we hope, to

11 understand the concerns of the Defence.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. The information that

13 Mr. Margetts has conveyed to the Court in respect to the 89(F) summary and

14 the outstanding objections in relation to the statement, I concur with.

15 The only issue outstanding is that there's a certain section of the

16 statement that begins at paragraph 18.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MS. LOUKAS: And its titled --

19 JUDGE ORIE: 18 is blackened already in my version, so I don't

20 know ...

21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. That was subsequently blackened. That's 18,

22 19. But I had actually objected to the entire section from 18 until 48, I

23 think it was.

24 JUDGE ORIE: 48.

25 MS. LOUKAS: 46, in fact, yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: 46.

2 MS. LOUKAS: And in answer to my objection, the Prosecution had

3 removed 18, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26, 33, 35 --

4 JUDGE ORIE: You said 24. That's not out yet on my list.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It is?

7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, no. 24 is not out. I have a listing

8 here of --

9 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. Did I say 24? No. 23, 25, is what I meant

10 to say.

11 JUDGE ORIE: 26. What I have on my -- then I see 33, 34, 35 are

12 out.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: 37, 38, 39, and then it continues until 46. So the

15 Defence would like to have 18 up to and including 46 out.

16 MS. LOUKAS: The entire section, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The entire section, yes.

18 MS. LOUKAS: My -- I don't intend to go into any detail on that.

19 I just would submit that there is a lot of surplusage in this statement

20 that I would submit is not necessary for the Trial Chamber.

21 The other aspect in terms of objections was the last sentence of

22 paragraph 60, which I would submit is in the form of a conclusion or

23 opinion.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's where it reads "the proclamation of"?

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. That's because it's opinion, yes.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Paragraph 63, the second-last sentence in relation

3 to, again, opinion. This indicated --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ballot papers? That line?

5 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Ballot papers?

7 MS. LOUKAS: In relation to the ballot papers, precisely, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So these two lines or all four?

9 MS. LOUKAS: No, just the line that begins --

10 JUDGE ORIE: And ends with "discrimination". Okay. Opinion.

11 MS. LOUKAS: The next paragraph is paragraph 66.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MS. LOUKAS: The last sentence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: This case made. Is that the last sentence?

15 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. It's the second-last sentence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The threat. Yes?

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And including the last one or -- I mean the last two

19 or just the previous -- just the --

20 MS. LOUKAS: Yeah. Just --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we stop? At "assembly" or at "wider"?

22 MS. LOUKAS: Well, in essence, it's the first sentence, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we stop after "assembly". And that's for

25 reason of --

1 MS. LOUKAS: In view of the fact that that sentence follows on the

2 comparison, perhaps both sentences might be the appropriate course there.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And that's because of opinion or conclusion or --

4 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Comparisons, Your Honour, that

5 I think can be drawn if need be by the Trial Chamber, but not

6 appropriately drawn by the witness in the circumstances, I would submit.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The line only reads that this can be compared with

8 something else. It doesn't compare it --

9 MS. LOUKAS: Well, indeed, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you always can compare to things, isn't it.

11 So but I'll write it down.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, the reason I went back to

13 paragraph 66 was because I was objecting to, in addition, 67 in its

14 entirety.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MS. LOUKAS: I mean, the statement of Radovan Karadzic in the

17 republic assembly is something that Your Honours have before you and I

18 would submit is not relevant to the statement given by the witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any further paragraphs, please.

20 MS. LOUKAS: And there's just one further one, I think,

21 paragraph 90.

22 JUDGE ORIE: 90. Yes.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to description of events in other

24 places that are basically obviously drawn from television.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's it?

1 MS. LOUKAS: And there was one more, if I remember correctly, and

2 that's in relation to 99. This was the second sentence in paragraph 99.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Starting with "the statement"?

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ending --

6 MS. LOUKAS: And it meant something like -- again, I would submit

7 that's -- Your Honours can draw the conclusions in relation to what the

8 statement meant or didn't mean.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MS. LOUKAS: And that, Your Honour, concludes the objections.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll have a look at that and ... And then I

12 do understand that the parties will subsequently agree on the summary,

13 because it follows from -- I take it that it's especially the long section

14 of 18 that would influence the summary. Is that correct?

15 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, that's the case. Your Honour, would I

18 be able to very briefly respond to --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. MARGETTS: -- the comments? In regard to the first section,

21 we have taken out many paragraphs, as --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. MARGETTS: -- has been indicated, and you can see blackened on

24 your statement. Our major observation is this: That these conclusions

25 that are drawn on the basis of the observations and the information that

1 this witness received in Kotor Varos effectively the way in which he

2 perceived this information; and secondly, how this information affected

3 the citizens and was reflected in the comments and the discussions that

4 were taking place in Kotor Varos. So it's our submission that that really

5 is the essence of why we bring the evidence of these republican-level and

6 higher Serbian political statements. And that is because of the effect

7 that these have on the ground level and --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean whether true or not? I mean, if I

9 broadcast something on television and say that another village was

10 attacked, you would say the perception would still be there even if the

11 witness couldn't tell us whether it's true or not what is shown on

12 television?

13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, that's true, Your Honour. And in this

14 particular witness's statement, the importance of the transmit is on

15 Vlasic mountain and the redirection of those transmitters towards Serbia

16 and the effect that had on this municipality is an issue, and the fact

17 that these matters are true or not is something I think this witness

18 himself may dispute, and by their very nature, the message is that --

19 intended to be messages of propaganda. That's the point we would make in

20 respect of the first section.

21 We'd also make the point that there is the opportunity for Defence

22 counsel to assist the Court in assessing the strength or otherwise of

23 these observations and the information received by this witness during the

24 course of cross-examination. If it is the fact that there is ambiguity as

25 to whether this represents an opinion or just a summary of the matters

1 that this witness observed, then Defence counsel has the opportunity to

2 test it. And for that reason, we'd say that those paragraphs that we have

3 retained should be tested in that way rather than being struck.

4 Also, these paragraphs go to the essence of the manner in which

5 the control over the governmental organs, the armed forces, was initiated,

6 built, and eventually utilised by the leaders at the republican level.

7 In regard to the other paragraphs, I won't take the Court's time

8 in making a submission on those unless the Court does invite me to, but we

9 do have a response in respect of each of those, if necessary.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's just a couple of lines here and

11 there. Would it be possible for you just to write down on each of the

12 objections one line? I mean, Ms. Loukas has been very brief in saying

13 this is opinion, that is opinion. If you could do it right away, then

14 I'll give you an opportunity to do that. And if not, the first one would

15 be the last sentence of 60, the proclamation of the so-called illegality

16 of the --

17 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. This witness is someone who is a

18 representative in the Municipal Assembly and his evidence is that they

19 sought to put this matter on the agenda of the Municipal Assembly meetings

20 and the HDZ and the SDA rejected that, for the very basis of the illegal

21 or alternatively, treasonous nature of the SAOs. This evidence has been

22 produced in respect of a lot of other municipalities and goes to the

23 essence of what the real intent of those SAOs was. And accordingly --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I have to be fair. Ms. Loukas used one or two lines

25 and that was it. And now you start -- I wouldn't say whole speech but --

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1 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you -- when Ms. Loukas says this

3 is opinion, that you say the witness was in a perfect position to give his

4 judgement on the situation and then I can still imagine that the first

5 part of the line was illegal, it's even different from the second, I would

6 say, historical assessment, that it was a step forwards to the creation

7 of.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. And maybe we could agree that the final part

9 of that sentence could be struck.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. MARGETTS: But the initial part could remain.

12 In respect of 66, I'll try and be brief.

13 JUDGE ORIE: 63, the ballot papers first.

14 MR. MARGETTS: 63. Yes. The fact of the ballot papers

15 discriminating on the basis of race is set out in the first part of that

16 sentence. So that observation seems to be quite legitimate, in our

17 submission.

18 In regard to 66, I'm not entirely clear as to -- so this is the

19 sentence which starts "the threat can also be compared to a statement

20 given by Karadzic."

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then the statement from Karadzic comes.

22 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Next line.

24 MR. MARGETTS: So we say in respect of 67, that is important.

25 That's something that the people in Kotor Varos observed, and the effect

1 that that had on the people in Kotor Varos is described by this witness.

2 In fact, in the final sentence, he says: "This statement contained a

3 threat and blackmail directed at Muslims and undoubtedly the statement

4 caused fear among the Muslims."

5 So that would be why we say this is relevant, because that is an

6 event that takes place within Kotor Varos.

7 We'd further say that that having happened on the 15th of October,

8 and in paragraph 72, at the end of October, a similar threat being made by

9 Djekanovic, who is a deputy in the Assembly at the republican level, has

10 some resonance. And the fact of those two matters going together means

11 that it's quite a legitimate observation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will see, of course, there's still

13 another way out, that we ask one or two questions limited to the factual

14 information the witness is -- has available, so that we perhaps take a

15 final decision after the examination as a whole. But it's clear to me.

16 And now we still have 90. That's that the sources is mainly TV

17 knowledge.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. My previous submission in

19 respect of the earlier paragraphs applies for 90.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. MARGETTS: And in regard --

22 JUDGE ORIE: So you very much emphasise that it is important to

23 know what people saw on television, whereas I do understand that the

24 objection by Ms. Loukas is mainly that it -- the facts described could not

25 say more than that he saw it on television. So as a matter of fact, both

1 parties agree to the extent that what this witness sees on television, of

2 course, he would not know whether it's true or not, but you think it's

3 important because it had some impact on the population, whereas Ms. Loukas

4 says more or less the same, that it's relevant for us to hear, since the

5 witness cannot testify whether it's true or not what he saw on television.

6 But is it also in dispute, Ms. Loukas, that it may have some

7 importance that the witness saw these things on television? True or not?

8 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I don't take issue with that.

9 Your Honour is quite correct in that. But I also find in quite a number

10 of the Prosecution statements that there's a lot of extraneous material

11 and including that people saw on TV, Ms. Biljana Plavsic and what happened

12 in Bijeljina. It's hardly, I would have thought, sort of a high point of

13 the Prosecution case, and I'm merely trying to ensure as much as possible

14 that the Trial Chamber has before it relevant material in relation to the

15 case rather than what I would consider is often surplusage and repetitive

16 evidence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that Mr. Margetts may be saying

18 not what was broadcasted, but that it was broadcasted, was the most

19 important issue.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We're not suggesting that this

21 evidence goes to the truth of the matters that were presented on

22 television. We're just -- we're saying that this material that was

23 broadcast had an effect in Kotor Varos, and this witness can describe that

24 impact.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I do see that the parties are not that far apart.

1 We'll look at it further, especially, of course, paragraphs 18 and

2 following, because --

3 MS. LOUKAS: There's just one further point --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MS. LOUKAS: -- that I would make, Your Honour, and again just

6 briefly. We're running out of time for 92 bis, I think, in the

7 circumstances. Mr. Margetts made one point in relation to the fact that,

8 well, if there are ambiguities in the statement, well, the Defence can

9 cross-examine. But the whole point of the introduction of 89(F) is in the

10 interests apparently of time efficiency. And of course, if there were to

11 be a proper evidence in chief through non-leading questions in important

12 areas, then the -- it wouldn't be incumbent upon the Defence to

13 cross-examine upon ambiguities. Those matters would have been dealt with

14 appropriately in an appropriate evidence in chief. So I think we do find

15 ourselves in a somewhat different area. So to merely say or assert any

16 ambiguity can be cleared up by the Defence in the circumstances of an

17 89(F) procedure is, I would have thought, a fundamentally flawed argument

18 in the circumstances. We're dealing with evidence that's not dealt with

19 in the normal fashion, and it's not normally incumbent upon the Defence to

20 clarify what should have been dealt with in an appropriate evidence in

21 chief.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The question, of course, is whether it's

23 inappropriate, yes or no. We'll deal with it tomorrow.

24 Then we have -- yes. Then we have the issue of the P exhibits

25 still on the list. Mr. Harmon, could you inform us already on P202, P203.

1 MR. HARMON: Yes. As I said earlier, Your Honour, Mr. Hannis will

2 be dealing with that issue tomorrow.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise. I noticed that we would deal with

4 that later on, but I had forgotten that it would be tomorrow.

5 Then we could still read - perhaps not all - available 92 bis

6 witnesses. Does the Prosecution have any preference in which order to

7 start? We might not finish them all.

8 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'll start in the order in which they

9 are found in the stapled --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I printed them out from my computer, so it's --

11 I have not staples. Which will be the first one?

12 MR. HARMON: I will start with Vlasenica with a witness by the

13 name of Hasim Ferhatovic.

14 JUDGE ORIE: He is as far as I understand not a protected witness,

15 and his 92 bis statement was admitted, Madam Registrar. That's 175,

16 Ferhatovic. Yes. Admitted 12th of May.

17 Please proceed with the summary, and perhaps I explain again to

18 the public, these are written statements admitted into evidence, and the

19 Chamber deems it important that the public knows what is admitted into

20 evidence. So therefore a summary is read.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

22 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. This is a witness from Vlasenica,

23 named Hasim Ferhatovic, with the code of KRAJ 175.

24 This witness describes killings and beatings of detainees and

25 forced labour at Susica detention camp, which was a former JNA facility.

1 He also describes beatings and forced labour at Batkovic camp.

2 The witness was detained in a hangar at Susica from 2 June 1992 to

3 30 June 1992. The camp commander was Dragan Nikolic. The witness's wife

4 and children were also detained at Susica. The women were released after

5 they signed a book to confirm that they were leaving Vlasenica of their

6 own free will. Those women who refused to sign the book were threatened

7 with beating or death unless they signed. The witness's wife and daughter

8 were forced to surrender their valuables, including their earrings.

9 On the night of 12 June 1992, the witness saw Nikolic and other

10 guards beat two old prisoners with a shovel and a police baton and kick

11 them. The witness was told to bring the two prisoners inside after they

12 had been beaten. One of the prisoners, bleeding from his mouth and ears,

13 died, lying next to the witness, about 40 minutes later. The witness was

14 sent to bury the dead man and was ordered to tell the dead man's wife that

15 he had died of a heart attack. The other prisoner was alive, but his eyes

16 were swollen shut and his entire body was swollen. He suffered from

17 delirium and survived in this state for about 12 hours before he too died.

18 On the night of 23 June 1992, two other prisoners were called out

19 from the hangar. The witness later heard cries of pain and gunshots. He

20 was then ordered to go out and bring inside the hangar the bodies of the

21 two prisoners, who were dead with gunshot wounds in their chests. A guard

22 who then called another prisoner put him on a chair outside a guardhouse

23 and then shot him repeatedly, killing him. Nikolic was drunk, on a couch,

24 inside the guardhouse at the time.

25 Serb police arrived following a call that prisoners had attempted

1 to escape. When the Serb police demanded to know who had escaped, one of

2 the prisoners lifted his head. That prisoner was taken outside. The

3 witness later heard one shot and found the prisoner's body the following

4 day with a single bullet hole in the centre of his forehead. The witness

5 was forced to bury the bodies of the prisoners whose deaths are described

6 above. He describes several other beatings of prisoners by Nikolic and

7 camp guards.

8 After his detention at Susica, the witness was detained for 13

9 months in Batkovic. He describes the beatings and gross mistreatment to

10 which he was subjected during his detention there.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, looking at the clock, I think we could do

12 one more, but then perhaps a short Vlasenica -- would be 178 perhaps? 178

13 is the relatively short one. Otherwise we have some Brcko -- or 1 --

14 MR. HARMON: Yes. I can do 178, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, 178 was admitted into

16 evidence?

17 THE REGISTRAR: On the 12th of May, 2004.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any protective measures? No protective

19 measures, as far as I know, Mr. Harmon. Then you'll read the 92 bis

20 summary of the statement.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar doesn't know for sure, so let's --

23 mainly his name not of course.

24 MR. HARMON: I will refer to him as KRAJ 178.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

1 MR. HARMON: And this refers to the municipality of Vlasenica.

2 This witness describes the quality of life and good inter-ethnic

3 relationships in the village of Drum in Vlasenica municipality before

4 1992. In April 1992 he noted the arrival in the municipality of troops of

5 the JNA Novi Sad Corps. He says that Serb police came to Drum in early

6 May 1992, confiscating hunting rifles held by Muslims and calling over

7 megaphones that if Muslims did not hand over weapons their homes would be

8 burnt down.

9 On 2 June 1992, the witness saw heavily armed men in military

10 uniforms, lying in grass around the village. An APC arrived and a soldier

11 on the APC opened fire. Soldiers emerged from both sides of the road and

12 started to go through the village, kicking doors in and dragging people

13 out. The witness describes several separate incidents, where he saw

14 soldiers fire bursts of machine-gun fire into villagers. The witness

15 recognised one of the soldiers as a Serb woman who worked in a local

16 factory. She allowed him to leave the village in a bus filled with women,

17 children, and two old men. From the bus, the witness saw 20 bodies of

18 villagers killed in the attack on Drum, and he names ten of those

19 villagers. The witness says that he recognised several of the soldiers as

20 employees of the local bauxite mine.

21 The witness was driven to Susica camp just outside Vlasenica town,

22 where he was put in a warehouse with 1.000 other detainees. He says that

23 he overheard one soldier ask another if Vlasenica had been cleaned, and

24 the other replied in the affirmative.

25 During the first three days at Susica, there was only some water

1 and no food. The single toilet in the warehouse was soon overflowing. He

2 says that the camp commander was Veljko Basic, who was replaced after the

3 first three days by Dragan Nikolic. He describes abuse of detainees at

4 the camp.

5 After three days, men from Vlasenica municipality came to issue

6 permits to those detainees who agreed to sign a statement saying that they

7 were leaving the municipality voluntarily. 800 detainees signed, were

8 loaded onto buses and driven away.

9 That concludes the summary of KRAJ 178, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

11 It's time, approximately. One more question to you, Mr. Harmon.

12 Is the next witness after we will have finished the cross-examination of

13 Witness 144, ready to testify?

14 MR. HARMON: He is, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem as far as new exhibits are

16 concerned for the next witness? I'm not talking about 144.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, while I've been in court this

18 afternoon, we've just received a further supplemental information sheet, I

19 think, and the list of exhibits, an updated list of exhibits.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No great surprises or are there?

21 MS. LOUKAS: While we've been in court, we've been receiving

22 material that we've checked briefly during the breaks in relation to the

23 following witness, but at this stage I don't know that there's a problem

24 because I haven't actually looked at that material. I assume there's not.

25 I just wonder, perhaps the Prosecution could give an indication now how

1 long they think they might take with the subsequent --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Next witness, so you are aware whether you have to

3 prepare to start your cross-examination. Let's just assume that

4 cross-examination and questions of the Judges would take us until the

5 first break, and then we would have another two and a half hours left.

6 Would the next witness take in chief more than two and a half hours?

7 MR. HARMON: I don't have a time estimate in front of me. I think

8 he's estimated more than three hours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Six hours comes down to --

10 MR. HARMON: Usually, Your Honour, we've been reducing these as

11 much as we can, so it's entirely possible that tomorrow we will finish

12 before the end of the normal session.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And who will examine the next witness?

14 MR. HARMON: Mr. Hannis.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis. Perhaps you can get in touch with

16 Mr. Hannis so that you will know more or less whether or not to --

17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- there is any need to prepare to start your

19 cross-examination. Yes.

20 MS. LOUKAS: The problem is of course that I deal with all three

21 witnesses while the Prosecution have a different lawyer each one, but

22 there you go.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you keep the overview.

24 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, quarter past 2.00, same

25 courtroom.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

3 October, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

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