Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7266

1 Thursday, 21 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.

10 Mr. Hannis, is the Prosecution ready to continue the

11 examination-in-chief of their present witness?

12 MR. HANNIS: We are, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I ask Madam Usher to escort the witness

14 into the courtroom. At the same time, I use the opportunity to first of

15 all, and I'm now addressing the Defence, to express that it's my

16 understanding that considerable progress has been made in the meetings

17 with the Registry as far as communication and electronic media is

18 concerned.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ORIE: And that there's still one thing over, that is, the

21 laptop of Mr. Krajisnik in court. And I only wanted to convey to the

22 Defence that the Chamber will further pay attention to that aspect. So in

23 order to resolve that as well.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Pasic, I apologise for dealing with

Page 7267

1 other matters when you entered the courtroom. Good afternoon. May I

2 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

3 at the beginning of your testimony. Yes.

4 Then now Mr. Hannis will continue the examination. Please

5 proceed, Mr. Hannis.

6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


8 Examined by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pasic. When we left off yesterday, I believe

10 we had just gotten to the point where your parents had decided to leave

11 Vecici and they decided it would be best if you went with the group that

12 your father was going with. And as I recall, you told us there were

13 approximately 500 to 700 people in the group that you were travelling

14 with; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct, sir.

16 Q. And do you know how many people were in the group that your mother

17 was going to go out with?

18 A. I don't know the total, but later on I found out that put into our

19 buses from Grabovica the total of buses was 13 buses, all the civilians

20 from Vecici.

21 Q. And do you know approximately how big the buses were, how many

22 people were held on each bus? Were they full-size buses?

23 A. I would say 50 to 60 people in them.

24 Q. So could you tell the Court, please, then how you left Vecici in

25 the group you went with. What time did you leave, and how did you go, and

Page 7268

1 where were you heading?

2 A. Around 8.00 that night, when my father decided to take me to the

3 safe place, Travnik, we left Vecici with a group of people. It was big.

4 We were heading towards Jezica. It's the hill. And across to Travnik.

5 Around 1.00 that night, we were approaching Jezica when we were ambushed

6 by the Serbs for the first time, and as a result of ambush, two people

7 died, Ahmet Zec and his son. I don't know his name.

8 The group was separated in two, and I remember my father -- it was

9 chaos, when he pushed me under this big tree and told me to stay there

10 when this firing started.

11 Approximately it lasted for 20, 30 minutes, and I didn't move.

12 Then later he came back and he says -- he was calling my name: Elvedin,

13 Elvedin, where are you? And I came out and he says: We have to move, we

14 have to move. We were attacked.

15 Then we joined this little group of people and we find out that

16 other group left somewhere else. And then he says -- we found out that

17 two people died and we need somebody to bury them and we need volunteers.

18 At that time people were so afraid to go, and I know that two people left

19 from that group, same group I was in. They took the bodies and buried

20 them under a tree, just pushed them under the tree and covered them with

21 branches.

22 The same night, around 5.00, we joined the other group. We found

23 each other. And we decided to walk, and we entered this open area. It

24 was a field, clear. We were so tired and wet from the rain that we

25 decided we're going to stay there and get some rest. I was so thirsty, I

Page 7269

1 remember I told my dad: I need some water. Can you find me some water.

2 He went out and he got me some water. And he -- when he came back, people

3 running around and saying: We need to -- somebody needs to get up and go

4 form the line, or go in the woods, look for Serbs. Nobody volunteered.

5 Everyone was laying down. Nobody didn't care. Everyone just wanted to

6 get some sleep.

7 Then soon after that, we find out that the Serbs were surrounding

8 us once again, and somebody just said: Get up, get up. We have to move

9 now. And when we got up, that's when we were right in the middle of

10 firing.

11 I remember 15 to 20 men, young men, decided to stay and fight

12 against Serbs. I followed my dad, and we were on this hill. We were

13 going down the hill. Bullets were flying everywhere. In this group, we

14 had a guy who knew the path towards Travnik. His name was Besim. He was

15 from Vecici.

16 There was a river dividing two hills. We were going down a hill

17 and I had a huge coat, big coat. It was soaking in water. And I told my

18 dad, I said: I can't move. I have to take this off. And he said: You

19 have to move, we have to follow him. And I took my -- I said: I have to

20 take it off. It's too heavy. And we stopped there, and when we stopped

21 there we heard big bombs, mines exploded down there, you know, of this

22 group in the river.

23 Then he says: We have to move now. When we got there, ten people

24 were dead from land mines. And this Besim guy who knew the path, he had

25 his both legs blown off. And he was calling somebody to help him out, but

Page 7270

1 we were so afraid, we had to cross that river, move on to the next side of

2 this hill. Approximately 200 people of us all together.

3 We paused for a minute there. We wanted to gather all together,

4 figure out what we're going to do now. At the same time, we heard Serbs

5 calling on megaphones: Balija, you have to surrender now. If you

6 surrender, you're going to survive. If you don't, you're all going to

7 die, and then they started laughing. That was big chaos. People didn't

8 know where to go.

9 In this group I remember hodza from Vecici. He was with us when

10 he said -- his favourite saying was: Child, children, let's pray. We

11 gathered all together and we prayed there. He said -- they decided what

12 we going to do when this guy got up, he says: We're going to surrender.

13 And people were just at that time -- didn't know what to do and we started

14 walking towards this tunnel approximately 15 -- 50 to a hundred metres

15 long. It was wide. We entered there, and this guy, Zec, he was in

16 Vecici. I remember him, seeing him when we were walking through the woods

17 contacting somebody, and I was telling my dad: That guy is talking to

18 somebody. Every time we stop he goes underneath a tree and then he pulls

19 out -- I'm sorry. He pulls out -- he pulls out this microphone or - I

20 don't know - radio and then he starts talking. And I was telling my dad:

21 That guy is talking to somebody. And he says: No. You just keep on

22 moving. We have to move.

23 And then he was the one who jumped in when we were in the tunnel.

24 He says: Don't worry anything. We're going to surrender. He took his

25 shirt. He's a white shirt and he ripped it off, used a branch and walked

Page 7271

1 out of the tunnel. And he left with this one guy. And he was gone for 15

2 minutes. When he came back, he says: Oh, everything is fine. We just

3 need to surrender. They guarantee us we're going to live.

4 When we were coming out of this tunnel we noticed the snipers on

5 both the ends -- the end and beginning of this tunnel. There was no way

6 for us to escape. And as we were coming out this tunnel, they told us:

7 Whoever had weapons, raise your -- put the weapons above your head. And

8 just walk slowly.

9 Q. How many people were still in your group by the time you got

10 inside this tunnel, if you know?

11 A. When we got inside this tunnel, we had approximately 200 people.

12 Q. And when you came out, did those with weapons lay the weapons

13 down?

14 A. Yes. They told us: Weapons on left-hand side. When we -- some

15 of the guys were holding weapons, they told us: Put the weapons on

16 left-hand side and all your gold, money, anything that you have, put it on

17 the right-hand side. And I remember my mom gave it to my father, all the

18 money, because they were hoping -- and we were hoping that we going to go

19 to the Travnik, be safe. And she gave all the money that she had to him,

20 and the gold.

21 So I seen -- when I was passing this -- you know, because we were

22 walking one by one, slowly, I've seen a lot of money, mainly Deutschmarks,

23 and gold, on the right-hand side.

24 Q. And did they tell you what would happen if they found anything on

25 anybody after you had gone and laid down weapons and valuables?

Page 7272

1 A. They told us: You have to leave everything. If we find a needle,

2 we're going to kill you.

3 Q. After you all had done this, where did you go or where were you

4 directed to go?

5 A. As we were coming to this open area, I noticed Serbs were coming

6 out of the trenches and they were celebrating, firing in the air. They

7 told us to lay down on this muddy ground. One by one we were faced down

8 like this. We lay down and that's when I noticed -- we heard trucks

9 coming with more soldiers. And they told us: Lay down. If anybody gets

10 up, we're going to kill you, we're going to shoot you. I know it was

11 muddy and raining that day, and we approximately were staying there for

12 two hours, faced like this.

13 Q. Was your father with you in this group that came out of the

14 tunnel?

15 A. Yes. My father was there. My uncle, my cousins, my neighbours,

16 and I also saw Hamida's husband, Elvir Lihovic, who was there ten metres

17 above me in that line-up that we were laying down.

18 Q. And Hamida was your sister and Elvir is your brother-in-law?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Before I go on with this, I want to follow up on something with

21 Elvir. You mentioned that your sister had lived in Dabovci. Am I

22 pronouncing that correctly?

23 A. Dabovci, that is correct.

24 Q. And were you aware of what had happened in Dabovci before this

25 event in Vecici and Grabovica? Were you aware of what had happened in

Page 7273

1 that village? Did your sister or brother-in-law tell you about that prior

2 to this time?

3 A. When we got to Vecici, we wanted to see Elvir Lihovic, my mom,

4 because we heard when we were in Garici that horrible things happened at

5 Dabovci. But we wanted to hear from him because he was the only one who

6 survived from the men Dabovci. I was in the room when he was -- he told

7 my mom everything what happened, that one day these mad soldiers, Serbian

8 soldiers walked in the village and told all the men in Dabovci together

9 all -- gather them all together and took them outside the village into one

10 vacant house or -- where they shoot them all and burned this house. I

11 know -- and he told us how -- my mom asked him: How did you survive? He

12 said his friend who lived right next to him, he says when they lined them

13 up -- when they start shooting at his friend jumped on him and hugged him.

14 That's how -- pushed him on the ground and he survived there. After they

15 shoot them all, he says they threw bomb, hand-grenade in this room where

16 they were all killed. And also they -- he says later on they burned it,

17 and when they left, they broke the window when he escaped to Vecici.

18 Q. Do you remember him telling you what kind of building they were in

19 where they were shot and where it was burned?

20 A. The building was for cattles.

21 Q. Now, when you were on the ground, lying face down, after you had

22 surrendered, how long did you stay there, approximately?

23 A. Approximately two hours.

24 Q. And what happened during those two hours?

25 A. During these two hours, Serb soldiers were telling -- picking

Page 7274

1 out -- they started picking out people from this group and asking

2 questions. I remember I could recognise them by the voice. I couldn't

3 see him, but he was my neighbour, Mustafa, when they told him: Get up.

4 And they asked him questions: Who is in charge? Who is your commander?

5 And he says: Besim. So where is Besim? He says: He got killed from

6 mines, and they start laughing. He says: Why don't you call him, start

7 calling him. So he was there for 10, 15 minutes calling Besim, his name.

8 There were also calling people and saying just saying: Okay. You

9 were the snipers, you were shooting our soldiers, and they were beaten. I

10 remember also hodza from Vecici. I can recognise his voice because his

11 favourite voice was: My child. Anything that he was saying, he was

12 saying "my child." They started beating him because they were saying:

13 You hodza, you're responsible for this.

14 They beat up my father. He was laying right next to me when they

15 told him: Get up. And they just started beating him. Most of the people

16 never came back to the group but he did. He came back and he was

17 screaming and calling my name. He says: Are you okay, are you okay? I

18 said: Yeah, I'm fine. They told us if anybody gets up we're going to

19 shoot you. Don't turn around. And I remember my uncle was -- he was

20 shaking. He says: When they started with these trucks that they were

21 parked on our right-hand side, they were coming and we were face down, and

22 I remember my uncle saying: They're going to run over us. They were

23 coming close to the group. And if anybody gets up, they shoot you.

24 Q. Do you remember if there was -- if there seemed to be any system

25 to how they were picking people out of the group?

Page 7275

1 A. No. I know that they were just picking people. As they were

2 coming in the trucks, more and more soldiers were just picking people from

3 the ground.

4 Q. Do you remember hearing if they asked your father any questions

5 when they had him get up?

6 A. I remember saying something about boots. Where did you -- I heard

7 saying: Balija, where go did you get that boots? And he was saying:

8 These are my boots. I was a hunter. They were saying: No, no. You

9 killed our soldiers. You got our boots from him. He says: No. I was a

10 hunter. And they started beating him. I can hear him in the background

11 screaming. But he did came back to this group.

12 Q. So after about two hours, what happened?

13 A. They told all the women and children: Get up and start walking.

14 Q. Did you get up at first?

15 A. At first I refused, because I didn't know where we're going. And

16 my father was -- he told me: Get up. Get up. And I says: No. Then my

17 uncle says: Get up. You'll survive. And I was the last boy who got up

18 from that group. They told us: When you get up, don't look around. Look

19 in front of you. If you look around, we're going to shoot you.

20 Q. Where did you go from there?

21 A. I got up. I saw hodza. He was the only one who was faced this

22 way. He was all in blood. I didn't see if he was moving or anything. I

23 noticed he was all in blood. They told us to walk slowly and then at one

24 time they told us to run and lay down and get up, towards Grabovica

25 school.

Page 7276

1 Q. When you say hodza was laying "this way," you mean he was face up

2 as opposed to everybody who was still face down?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. How far did you have to walk to get to the Grabovica school?

5 A. I don't remember how far, but I know that we were going through

6 the village and people were waiting outside, and mainly civilians and old

7 people, spitting on us. I don't remember the distance.

8 Q. What was the ethnicity of Grabovica village, if you know?

9 A. All Serbs.

10 Q. And what happened to you during the walk through the village to

11 the schoolhouse?

12 A. Like I mentioned, when we were walking, we had civilians spitting

13 on us, and I remember this, when this lady, female soldier, was walking by

14 and she said: Does anybody got a match? Because she was holding a

15 cigarette. And nobody didn't want to respond. She said: What's the

16 matter, balija? Oh, that's right. You don't have anything now.

17 And then they offered us a few times -- they told us to run, and

18 lay down, crawl, and get up, three or four times, until we reached the

19 school.

20 Q. And who was escorting your group to the school?

21 A. Serb soldiers.

22 Q. How many women and children were there in this group that you were

23 going to the school with, approximately?

24 A. Approximately ten women, five to six boys, and I know we had

25 injured guy who was carried with this female. He lay on the mine, and he

Page 7277

1 was probably approximately - I don't know - 20 years old. And when he got

2 up from the group, they told him: You're old enough to get up. We asked

3 boys and females. And he was like -- they told him that -- he landed on

4 the mine and they did -- they told him just to walk. I remember he was in

5 that group with us too.

6 Q. What happened once you arrived at the school?

7 A. When we got there, we were lined up on back yard where I guess

8 students used to play basketball. And it was getting kind of dark, still

9 raining, when this guy, accompanied with two, I guess, bodyguards, came

10 towards us and introduced himself, but I don't recall his name. And he

11 asked us -- he told us: Good evening. And he had some kind of hat with a

12 light on, similar to a miner's hat. I remember seeing that. And he was

13 in camouflage uniform. He told us that we're going to spend the night in

14 the school and that nothing is going to happen to us, that tomorrow two

15 buses will arrive and take us to Vrbanjci with the rest of the refugees

16 and go safe to Travnik area. And he also says: All the men who left

17 over, they're going to pay for this.

18 Q. Did he say what "this" was that they were going to pay for?

19 A. I remember him saying: They're going to pay for all this.

20 Q. How was this man dressed? Was he in civilian clothes or uniform?

21 A. He was in camouflage uniform.

22 Q. Did he have any kind of insignia or rank?

23 A. I noticed insignia and also I noticed on his shoulders he had

24 stars and ...

25 Q. What did they do with you, women and children then?

Page 7278

1 A. They took us to the school, and this school, in a classroom. The

2 school had -- I call it two levels, the ground level and the top. They

3 put us in this classroom. We were sitting there with two armed soldiers,

4 sitting in a teacher's desk. One of then them was later on a guy who was

5 captured in Vecici. He was fully armed. He was sitting in front of us

6 and saying: Yeah. I was in Vecici. I was captured there. And then when

7 he turned around, he saw this young girl who he recognised later on that

8 started talking that they were going to school together. She was

9 originally from Skender Vakuf. And he told her, he says: What are you

10 doing here? She said -- she started crying: I visited my family in

11 Vecici and that's how I ended up. He said: Don't worry. Nothing's going

12 to happen to you. He brought her water, candy, and they offered us water

13 too.

14 Q. The men in your group that had been left behind lying on the

15 ground when you went to the school, did you see them again?

16 A. Around 10.00, 11.00 that night, I know it was really raining

17 outside, really hard, when we -- we were looking through the window. We

18 saw a man coming, walking in front of the trucks. That's the only way we

19 saw them is just because they had these lights, and they were in front of

20 trucks tied up, like this.

21 Q. When you say "like this," can you describe where you saw them tied

22 so it appears on the transcript. We can understand what you're --

23 A. They had -- they were tied with the wire around their wrists.

24 Q. And these were the older men in your group that had been in the

25 tunnel?

Page 7279

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. What happened with them at that time?

3 A. We heard them going upstairs into a classroom, and later on Serbs

4 offered whoever wants to see their relatives, that they can go, raise the

5 hand, and that we were free to go. I remember Hajrija Dugonjic who was

6 married to the guy who was in Vakufci. She was the first one who wanted

7 to go, and she was accompanied with two armed soldiers, took her upstairs.

8 She saw -- when she came back, she told us she saw her husband beaten up,

9 black and blue, and that he gave her a sign. So she asked him: Everybody

10 there, she somehow -- he got her sign saying at that time everyone was

11 there.

12 Q. Did anyone else in your group of women and children go up to see

13 the men?

14 A. This gal from Skender Vakuf, she went upstairs to see her

15 relatives. She came back and she was crying. She was saying the same

16 thing, that they were all safe. I didn't want to go because when they --

17 when I was lying down with my father, they were asking him questions about

18 boots and they also asked him: Do you have anybody in this group? And he

19 says: -- At that time he says no. So that's why I didn't want to go,

20 because I was afraid if I show up and if they see him, he might get killed

21 or I might get killed. Nobody else, just two gals went upstairs to see

22 them and nobody else did.

23 Q. What happened the next morning?

24 A. Next morning, soldiers came in and they told us that we have to

25 leave. Buses arrived. We've seen them through the windows. He says --

Page 7280

1 the soldier told us: Walk slowly to this fence. There was a little fence

2 as you go school, and they're you're going to stop all together, and we're

3 going to let you walk one by one, slowly. We're outside. Two rows of

4 women and children were waiting outside for us, kind of formed a gauntlet

5 where we had to go through, and he told us -- I remember clearly him

6 saying: If you survive this, you will survive. They were holding axes,

7 wooden sticks, pitchforks, and waiting for us to walk through. Everyone

8 refused to go first, and I remember I was pushing towards this back fence.

9 And this boy who was going to school with me, approximately my age. He

10 says: I'll go first. And he started walking. As he got to the middle,

11 somebody hit him so hard that he just fell and hit his knees. He couldn't

12 move. He started crawling. Then he was -- as he was crawling, he was

13 beaten in the back with the hands. And as we were passing by, everyone

14 was trying to grab him and kind of push him towards these buses. There

15 were approximately 100, 200 metres away from us. I was the last one who

16 left the school, and I was beaten in my back. I was trying to rush

17 through, but they told us: If you start running, we're going to shoot

18 you. So I was about to reach the bus when this woman in a black --

19 dressed in black grabbed me and pushed me on the road.

20 Q. Take your time.

21 A. She was holding a knife. She said: Let me kill this little

22 balija because two of my sons died in Vecici. I was trying to get away,

23 but she was so strong. Then this soldier who was standing right next to

24 the door pushed her aside and literally grabbed me and threw me in there,

25 in the bus, and closed the door.

Page 7281

1 Q. Do you want to take a short break?

2 A. They closed the door, and somehow the buses didn't stop right

3 away. And all these angry people that were waiting outside. They came

4 around the buses, and they were spitting, throwing stones approximately

5 for 15 minutes. They told us not to look around, outside. We might get

6 hurt. I was laying down like this in front of seats, and all of a sudden

7 buses stopped -- started, and we turned around and somebody from the

8 second floor school...

9 Q. And the second floor was where the men had been taken the night

10 before?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Did you ever see your father again after that?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Or your brother-in-law?

15 A. Nobody from that group.

16 Q. Do you remember about how many people were on the one bus that you

17 got on?

18 A. Approximately 15 to 20 of us.

19 Q. And you say there were two buses?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Okay. During the time that you stayed at the school that night,

22 in addition to the group of women and children that you were in, did they

23 bring in any other women and children during that time?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. Okay. Where did you go once the buses started and left Grabovica

Page 7282

1 school?

2 A. They told us we're going to Vrbanjci, where we're going to

3 accompany 11 or 10 more buses, civilians from Vecici and surrounding

4 villages, and that we're going to go to Travnik.

5 Q. And when you got to Vrbanjci, what happened?

6 A. When we got there, they told us not to get out, and buses were

7 already loaded, and I guess they were waiting for us. Approximately 12 to

8 13 buses total, and we left.

9 Q. Where did that convoy of 12 or 13 buses go from Vrbanjci?

10 A. We went across Vlasic Brdo to Travnik, and that's when we

11 actually -- they topped us at Smetovi and told us to get out. That's when

12 I met my mom, actually -- when I saw my mom.

13 Q. Where was she?

14 A. She was in the buses in front of us.

15 Q. And after you got off the buses, where did you go?

16 A. I remember when we got off the buses, they told us to go. It was

17 just chaos. All the civilians were just one huge group of people, going

18 towards Travnik. And as we were walking, I remember seeing a lot of

19 clothes, bags, leftovers, I guess, from the people before us who crossed

20 there, who were going through there. It was hard to see roads. We were

21 actually walking on the clothes. And as we were walking, I remember

22 seeing masked soldiers jumping from the side of the road and asking for

23 anything, money, gold, once again, stripping everybody, looking for money

24 and gold. That happened like three or four times until we finally reached

25 the end of it and the Bosnian side. An army was waiting for us.

Page 7283

1 Q. After -- once you got to the Bosnian side, did you have a chance

2 to talk with your mom about what had happened to her, where she had gone

3 after you left Vecici, and how she ended up being on a bus in the same

4 convoy as you?

5 A. I remember when we got to Travnik in this school, gymnasium

6 school, she was surprised to see me. She said: What are you doing here?

7 Aren't you with Dad? I said: Something horrible happened, I said. We

8 all surrendered. She said -- she started crying and everybody asked: So

9 what happened, what happened? And we told them that we were attacked and

10 we had to surrender and that Serb soldiers told us: As long as we

11 surrender, we're going to be fine. And she -- I asked her how -- what

12 happened with you? Did anybody get hurt? She said: No. That night when

13 we left Vecici, the following morning, they just walked all the civilians

14 from Vecici straight across the bridge to Vrbanjci with white flag and

15 they surrendered.

16 MR. HANNIS: I would like now to show the witness an exhibit. And

17 I'm not going to show him the next one I had on the list, which was a

18 Crisis Staff document. But I want to show a November 4th combat report.

19 The English is ERN 00892564.

20 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecution Exhibit number P351.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Pasic, I just want to read a part of the first paragraph and

23 ask you a question about it.

24 MR. HANNIS: For the record, this is a combat report from the

25 1st Krajina Corps command to the Srpska Republika Army Main Staff dated

Page 7284

1 4 November and its number is 44-1/458.

2 Q. Paragraph 1, information on the enemy says: "Green Berets pulling

3 out of Vecici village fell into our ambush. 40 of them were killed during

4 the clash, and another 20 members of the so-called BH army were captured.

5 Another 150 members of Green Berets, mostly women and children,

6 surrendered in the evening hours."

7 My question for you, Mr. Pasic: Were you a member of the Green

8 Berets?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Did you carry any weapons or engage in any fighting during this

11 whole time you've been telling us about?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. How about your mom or any of the other children and women in the

14 group you were with?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. HANNIS: I next would like to show the following exhibit,

18 which is also a combat report from the 4th of November. The ERN of the

19 English is 00892575.

20 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecution Exhibit number P352.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

22 Q. And Mr. Pasic, I want to direct you to the second paragraph under

23 number 2. And the number of this report is 44-1/459. The second

24 paragraph reads: "In the area of Kotor Varos, there was a clash between

25 members of Muslim forces and our units because of the refusal to negotiate

Page 7285

1 on moving out of the Vecici village area. About 40 Green Beret members

2 were killed and about 200 were captured. A brutal massacre of the

3 captured members of the Green Berets started because of the wounding of

4 four and killing of one soldier of the Kotor Varos Light Infantry

5 Brigade."

6 Was there any other group of soldiers that size leaving the Vecici

7 village area at that time other than the one that you were with, if you

8 know?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not this refers to your

11 father's group?

12 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would object to that question. The

13 witness answered "I don't know" in relation to the last question, and I

14 don't think that Mr. Hannis's question can take the matter any further.

15 MR. HANNIS: Let me ask a different question, Your Honour, if I

16 may.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. And before the witness answers that

18 question, if Ms. Loukas would have an objection, that would come first

19 before the answer.

20 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

22 Q. You told us when you left the village with your father's group,

23 that that included most of the fighters, as I understood; is that correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. And your mother remained behind and walked out of the village with

Page 7286

1 a group of women and children?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Was there any third group out of Vecici village?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. HANNIS: We can set that document aside, and I want to ask you

7 about one more.

8 The next document, if we can give it a number. This is a combat

9 report dated the 5th of November, and the English ERN is 01906052.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P353.


12 Q. And, Mr. Pasic, I want to direct you to paragraph number 4. Let

13 me read a little bit and ask you a question. It says: "The situation in

14 Kotor Varos municipality is still very complex. After they refused to

15 return the weapons and surrender to the Army of Republika Srpska, Muslim

16 extremists from the village of Vecici attempted to fight their way through

17 towards Travnik. In the clash against the Army of Republika Srpska,

18 following the death of one soldier and wounding of several others, more

19 than 150 extremists died in combat."

20 At the time you left the Grabovica school, when the soldiers --

21 the men from your group were up on the second floor, were they already

22 disarmed?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And bound with wire on their wrist?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 7287

1 Q. Not engaged in combat at that time?

2 A. No, sir.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm loath to object, of course, but that

4 little last series of leading questions should be avoided by the

5 Prosecution.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, the question whether people bound by

7 their wrists and disarmed were engaged in combat is rather a comment than

8 a question.

9 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour. I have no further

10 questions for this witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, are you ready to start cross-examination

12 or would you, in view of the time, we'd still have perhaps first have a

13 break. Perhaps -- I don't know whether the witness would prefer to have

14 an early break and then be cross-examined by counsel for the Defence, or

15 whether you'd prefer to continue for another half an hour. I don't know

16 how much time you would need, Ms. Loukas, approximately.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, in fact, my cross-examination won't be

18 that long, but I think in view of the emotional nature of the evidence in

19 chief, it might be appropriate for a short break before I proceed with my

20 cross-examination.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask the witness.

22 We could have a break now for approximately some 20 to 25 minutes

23 and then you'll be cross-examined by Ms. Loukas. But if you'd prefer to

24 continue now, then we could do that as well. Could you tell me what your

25 preference is.

Page 7288

1 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, can we continue, please.


3 Ms. Loukas.

4 You'll be cross-examined by Ms. Loukas, who is counsel for the

5 Defence.

6 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pasic.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, you've obviously been through a lot and your

11 evidence, I think, has been very emotional for you. I can indicate that

12 I'll keep my cross-examination as short as possible, and hopefully most of

13 the questions I'll be asking you are capable of a very short yes or no

14 answer. Do you understand?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, I think you gave a statement back in December 2000 in

17 relation to the matters that you've given evidence of?

18 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat that?

19 Q. Yes. You gave a statement in December 2000 in relation to the

20 matters that you've been giving evidence of yesterday and today?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that's a statement, obviously, that's true and accurate?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you were given an opportunity at the time you gave the

25 statement to read through it and make any corrections if they were

Page 7289

1 required?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when coming to The Hague on this occasion to give evidence,

4 obviously you went through the statement with the Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And he gave you an opportunity to correct the statement if there

7 were any need to correct it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, I just want to take you through some matters that are

10 contained in your statement, very briefly. Obviously, you gave your

11 statement very carefully, and of course you gave your evidence yesterday

12 and today very carefully. But there's just a couple of matters from your

13 statement that didn't come out in full, and I'd just like to take you

14 through them. Are you with me?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. Now, would you prefer the English copy or the B/C/S copy?

17 A. English copy.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honours, I have other copies of the English

19 statement and the B/C/S statement, but there may not be any need. I just

20 propose to read out small sections.


22 MS. LOUKAS: I can have them ready and available.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it could be -- if we have two copies, one to

24 be put on the ELMO, the other for the witness, both two English copies, so

25 that everyone can follow it and that the witness has a copy, which is

Page 7290

1 easier than --

2 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour. I do have additional copies

3 if Your Honours --

4 JUDGE ORIE: It depends. It also depends on whether the

5 Prosecution considers that anything is taken out of context.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- Need more, if not, we do not hear from the

8 Prosecution, we'll just do it as you suggested.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, instruct her which page to put on the

11 ELMO.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now, firstly, just going to page 3 of the statement, and that

14 would be the paragraph fourth from the bottom of page 3. Do you see the

15 paragraph I'm talking about, Mr. Pasic?

16 A. Yes, ma'am.

17 Q. And do you notice a sentence there in about the middle? It

18 says -- this is in reference to that meeting that occurred in your house

19 around the time of Bajram in 1992. And this sentence -- these two

20 sentences here: "They verbally started to count names of persons who had

21 weapons. My father was a hunter and owned a licenced hunting gun."

22 Correct?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Now, just going on the page 4 of your statement. This is about

25 your arrival in Bilice, which was the -- a Croat village. And just the

Page 7291

1 portion contained in that last paragraph there: "It was well organised

2 and the locals had dug trenches around the village in preparation to

3 defend themselves against a Serb attack. When we arrived in the village,

4 I saw around 50 armed men in the trenches, around 15 to 20 of them wearing

5 camouflage uniforms and wore some Croat symbols. The others were in

6 civilian clothes."

7 That is, of course, correct?

8 A. Yes, ma'am.

9 Q. You go on to say there that: "Most of the men carried hunting

10 guns; however, some had automatic weapons too. When we arrived in Bilice,

11 all military-aged men from my village, including my father and brother,

12 were already there."

13 Correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Additionally, if you go down a little further in the paragraph,

16 the sentence commencing: "During this one-month period some military-aged

17 men from Hrvacani assisted the Croats." Correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And you also go on to mention there that: "The others from our

20 village went in the direction of Vecici," and they included your father,

21 your brother; Nihad Pasic, your cousin; Sefik Pasic, your uncle;

22 Mehmedalija Pasic, another of your cousins; Sakib Pasic, another of your

23 cousins; Ibrahim Pasic, a cousin; Mustafa Pasic, a cousin; Redzo Pasic, a

24 neighbour; and his son Jasmin Pasic. Alija Pasic, a neighbour; his four

25 brothers, Refik, Alija, Fazil, and one whose name I don't recall but I

Page 7292

1 know he was one of the persons killed in Vecici. Muradif, son of Murat

2 Dugonjic" -- sorry. Am I going too fast? "And many others whose names I

3 don't recall now. This group consisted of around 50 men."

4 Correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Now, just going on to page five of your statement, just down to

7 the third-last paragraph, and you're dealing there in your statement with

8 when you came back to your village and in fact to your own home and saw

9 that it had been destroyed. You indicated there in the I think third-last

10 paragraph, the last sentence: "I believe Serb friends of my brother who

11 had gone to school with him and knew that my brother was in the military

12 did this." Correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Okay. Now, just in relation to page 6 of your statement, the last

15 paragraph there, you're dealing with coming to Garici. Do you see that

16 paragraph that I'm talking about there?

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. And you there refer to a woman who was -- I think you've indicated

19 there -- I think this was a Serb woman in the village, and I think you've

20 given evidence of this nature today. But the situation was that the --

21 this distraught woman who approached, the soldier told her to move away;

22 correct?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. From what you could see, he was trying to protect you in that

25 instance; correct?

Page 7293

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Now, moving on to the next page, page 7. That's the last sentence

3 of the first paragraph. This is at the time that you were staying in the

4 house of Atif Agambegovic. You stayed in this village, you state in the

5 statement, for about a month. And you also indicate there in that last

6 sentence that: "This was around July 1992." And you state there that:

7 "During this period my father or brother did not visit us." Correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Now, just moving on to the next page, at page 8 of your statement.

10 You're referring there to some days spent in Vecici, where you were in the

11 cellar, and then you're referring there to your father coming back. If

12 you look at the third paragraph there, this is in relation to that

13 discussion about whether you should stay with your mother or go with your

14 father. What you have there is: "They discussed the option of whether I

15 should stay with my mother and go to Travnik with the convoy or instead

16 accompany my father and the other fighters who were going to attempt to

17 escape through the woods." Correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Now, you've also I think given evidence yesterday and today that

20 in terms of the numbers of people who left, it was 500 to 700 people,

21 mainly men, three females, and 15 boys; correct? That was the evidence

22 that you gave in court yesterday, just before we finished. Do you recall

23 that?

24 A. I said approximate.

25 Q. Of course, approximately, yes. Now, there in your fifth paragraph

Page 7294

1 on page 8, you indicate, of course, that the group was quite big, and you

2 also indicate there that it comprised of all the fighters and some

3 children and about ten women; correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, just going to page 9 of your statement. And this is

6 something you gave evidence of today. This is the second-last paragraph

7 on page 9. You referred to this officer and you referred to it in this

8 statement as well. It's the last part of your second paragraph from the

9 bottom, in relation to the officer at Grabovica school. This officer was

10 in camouflage uniform. Do you see the portion of your statement that I'm

11 talking about?

12 A. Yes, ma'am

13 Q. "He said: Hey, how are you doing. Then he told us his name,

14 which I don't recall. Then he said," and this is the quote you have in

15 your statement: "You women and children will go to the school and then

16 tomorrow you will go to Travnik. I guarantee that nothing will happen to

17 you." Then he continued: "You have no guilt whatsoever. You'll go to

18 the school, but your fighters will pay for whatever happened. He then

19 left."

20 Correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And you also refer in that very last paragraph to -- this is the

23 second sentence, two or three later -- "Two or three hours later our

24 fighters were also brought to the school and the group of fighters were

25 taken upstairs." Correct?

Page 7295

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Okay. Now, just going to the very last page of your statement.

3 Again, this is a reference to at that stage when you were trying to get on

4 the bus, and this woman said that she was trying to kill you. And she

5 said: "My two sons were killed at Vecici." You remember that portion, of

6 course. And it was the situation that the soldier actually came and

7 pushed the woman aside so that you could get on the bus; correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And again, from what you could see, the soldier was trying to

10 protect you; correct?

11 A. Yes. Correct.

12 Q. Okay. Now, just going to your stays in these various villages

13 that you've given evidence of. It's correct, is it not, that those

14 villages, and I include in that Cirkino Brdo, Hanifici, Garici, and

15 Vakufci, those -- and please, if my pronunciation is not conveying the

16 names, please let me know. But it's your understanding, is it not, that

17 those villages in the local area that gave up their arms and signed the

18 loyalty oaths, that they would not fight with the Serbs, those villages

19 were actually safe for the people who lived there; correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. You also gave some evidence of having heard about some people

22 being killed at a hospital. This was something that you'd heard. Do you

23 recall the bit of evidence that I'm talking about?

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if we could have a page reference. I

25 don't remember mentioning a hospital.

Page 7296

1 MS. LOUKAS: Well, actually, I don't have the --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Is it yesterday's transcript? Then we could search

3 for the word "hospital" and see whether there's any "hospital" in it. One

4 second, please.

5 MR. HANNIS: Now that you say that, Your Honour, I think there was

6 with regard to -- he was talking about events in Vecici, when a group of

7 Serbs broke through the lines and then I think he mentioned the hospital.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll find that.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. It's page --

10 THE INTERPRETER: May counsel please speak into the microphone.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you're invited to speak into the

12 microphone.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. It's just a little difficult because the laptop

14 is a long way from the microphone. But I could use this microphone.

15 Q. The bit of evidence I'm talking about, Mr. Pasic, is -- yes, I

16 think this was information that you'd heard from others that they entered

17 the village, they broke the line, they got there and they burnt 30 houses

18 and killed everyone that was there and even a hospital that we know.

19 Because my cousin was in the hospital and he survived from the hospital

20 when they came to kill everybody, and he was telling us how everything --

21 Do you see the portion that I'm talking about? Do you recall

22 giving that evidence?

23 A. I remember now.

24 Q. Now, obviously it's correct that you don't have any idea about

25 what was going on immediately, no direct knowledge, of course, no direct

Page 7297

1 knowledge about what was going on immediately before they were killed;

2 correct?

3 A. I'm sorry. Can you -- can you rephrase that question, please.

4 Q. Certainly. I'm happy to do that. What I'm dealing with here is

5 you understand the difference between something that you --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Can counsel kindly speak into the microphone.


8 Q. -- something you saw for yourself, as opposed to something you

9 heard from someone else; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You understand that distinction? And that's the distinction that

12 I'm making there. So it's a relatively simple question, and it's just

13 that you have no direct knowledge as to what actually occurred in relation

14 to that incident; correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You mean by the incident, the hospital?

17 MS. LOUKAS: The hospital incident, Your Honour, yes.



20 Q. Now, I think you also indicated earlier in your evidence yesterday

21 that when you were in your village that you saw some Serb soldiers, and

22 one particular Serb soldier seemed to be very agitated and was saying:

23 There is no place for you here. But the -- you said the other soldier was

24 very kind and asked you nicely: What are you doing here?

25 Do you recall that part of the evidence?

Page 7298

1 A. Yes, I remember saying it.

2 Q. And in fact, I think that he offered you two soldiers so that you

3 could go to Garici; correct?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And one of those soldiers who accompanied you in fact tried to --

6 well, in fact did protect you from an angry Serb woman; correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Now, Your Honour, I just need to check something from

9 today's transcript, and I just need ten seconds to do that, if I may.



12 Q. Mr. Pasic, just in relation to some questions that the Prosecutor

13 asked you today. Do you recall being asked this question in relation to a

14 document that you were shown: "Was there any other group of soldiers that

15 size leaving the Vecici village area at that time other than the one that

16 you were with, if you know?" And your answer was: "I don't know."

17 That's at page 20 of the transcript today, for the benefit of Your Honours

18 and the Prosecution, and that's in reference to Prosecution Exhibit number

19 P352.

20 Now, you remember that question and answer, Mr. Pasic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And later on, Mr. Hannis, a few questions later, asked you this

23 question: "Was there any third group out of Vecici village?" And your

24 answer was: "No, sir."

25 Do you remember that answer, those two answers?

Page 7299

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I take it, in essence, that what you're saying there is that

3 you actually don't know; to your knowledge, there wasn't, but you don't

4 know for certain. I guess that's basically the import of what you're

5 trying to get across there; is that correct?

6 A. What I'm trying to say: In the group that I was with 200 people,

7 when we got ambushed, I don't know what happened on that hill. I don't

8 know how many people left there. I know 15 to 20 people, armed soldiers,

9 young boys, decided to fight Serbs. Like I mentioned before, that long

10 group, I don't know what happened to the rest of the people, but the group

11 that I was in, we left towards Grabovica. I don't know what happened up

12 there. First of all, we thought everyone got killed.

13 Q. Okay. So that's basically your answer in relation to that aspect

14 of your evidence; correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 MS. LOUKAS: No further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

18 Mr. Hannis, is there any need to put any further questions to the

19 witness?

20 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, I have a few questions to you, some of

22 them just being requests for clarification

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE ORIE: You just answered a question of Ms. Loukas, saying

25 that you did not observe yourself the incident at the hospital of which

Page 7300

1 you told us and which you learned about through your aunt. Your testimony

2 about the hospital is embedded in what you said you observed from

3 Cirkino Brdo, when Vecici was attacked. You said that you saw 30 houses

4 burned. And you told us about using binoculars. You observed the burning

5 of those houses when the forces entered Vecici yourself, even if at a

6 distance?

7 A. That is correct, Your Honour. We were -- at that time I remember

8 clearly that was I believe third day of the air striking when we were at

9 Cirkino Brdo. As I mentioned before, we watched them entering Vecici

10 village from that side. It was clear to see it, because there was an

11 opening and when they entered the village, we saw the smoke coming from

12 the houses, and later on firing started, and like 20 to 30 minutes later

13 on we saw them coming, running through the field back to Vrbanjci. And

14 that's when we noticed that -- we were crying. As a matter of fact, I was

15 right next to my mom. She was crying and saying: Oh, my god. They're

16 going to kill them all.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And could you see from that distance that these were

18 Serb soldiers?

19 A. With the binoculars, clearly.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I have one question in relation to

21 the arms. You told us that you had to disarm when you left the tunnel,

22 when you surrendered. Could you give us an indication on what type of

23 weapons there were, and also the quantities. Because you testified that

24 at an earlier stage, that there was hunting rifles and a few automatic

25 weapons. That was a few stages before that. What kind of weapons were

Page 7301

1 still available to the group when you left that tunnel?

2 A. As I mentioned before, Your Honour, my dad was a hunter, and I

3 remember he had a gun and a hunting gun. When we left that tunnel, mainly

4 with pistols, I remember that, and hunting guns, and I believe a few

5 automatic weapons. When they -- I did not see them, but once the men,

6 they rised them up in the air, that's when I saw them. And my dad, I

7 remember seeing him putting the gun on the left-hand side. That's what

8 they told us, to put them down.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us: Did all men, apart perhaps from

10 the children or the boys, did they all carry arms?

11 A. No, sir.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you tell us approximately what percentage. Was

13 it one out of two, one out of four, one out of six?

14 A. I would say, in my opinion, out of 200 people that were in the

15 tunnel, no more than 15 to 20 had weapons.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you also tell us what weapons the Serb soldiers

17 had who you were ambushed by?

18 A. I remember when we were coming out of tunnel, we found a mistake

19 and a M-48 was used to -- they were firing above our heads. Four of them

20 sitting in the trench. I remember that clearly. Mainly automatic

21 weapons, and also hand-grenades. Because when we were on this side of the

22 hill they were above us, because we could hear them talking on the

23 megaphone. They started throwing hand-grenades down because they saw us

24 coming, and as a matter of fact I believe they knew that we were going to

25 go this way because like I mentioned we had a guy who was collaborating

Page 7302

1 with them.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then a question of a totally different nature. I

3 noticed that going back to this period of your life, of course, made you

4 very emotional. Did you ever receive any professional help in overcoming

5 what you experienced at that time?

6 A. No, sir. But I know, last night, these past two nights I've been

7 dreaming again, and even my wife, you know, saw me jumping. It's hard

8 when you go back and experience that. I know I was really sick first two

9 months when we escaped to -- I had that truck in my mind every time I go

10 to bed and I'd wake up: They're going to run over us. I had that picture

11 in my mind and it was hard to get it out of it. But, you know, life now

12 moves on, and I'm in America, you know, busy life. And every time I go

13 back to this and start thinking about this, it brings back a lot of

14 memories and I have nightmares.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So you never received any psychiatric or

16 psychological treatment. Do you take any medication in order to suppress

17 those bad moments?

18 A. No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for these answers. Do they

20 trigger any need for further questions by the parties?

21 MR. HANNIS: No.

22 MS. LOUKAS: No.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, as I told you before, of course the

24 Chamber has observed how emotional it was for you to go back to a period

25 of your life and to testify about it, just as you also explained in the

Page 7303

1 answer to my last question. The Chamber very much appreciates that you

2 came, that you testified, that you answered the questions of both parties

3 and of the Bench, and we wish you a safe trip home again, and also

4 strength, because what you testified about, if you have gone through such

5 an experience, you need strength for the future. Thank you for coming.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Pasic out of

8 the courtroom.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before I ask Madam Registrar to assist us, I

11 would have one procedural issue I'd like to raise, which doesn't take me

12 any more than two or three minutes. We could do that after the break. We

13 could read some 92 bis statements into the transcript. Are there any

14 other issues we would have to discuss?

15 MS. LOUKAS: Well, no, Your Honour. There is a procedural issue

16 that I would wish to raise, but it's an issue that I can raise after the

17 break. And I note the time. I think it's -- it is the time for the

18 break.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's the time for the break now. I just

20 wondered if it was just a matter of two minutes and if we would not have

21 to come back, then of course we could deal with it. But we have still so

22 much on our agenda that we'll have a break now.

23 We'll adjourn until a quarter past 4.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

Page 7304

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, perhaps we first start with the most

2 recent matters, and that is, exhibits in relation to Mr. Pasic.

3 Madam Registrar, could you assist us, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: P349, photograph of a damaged mosque. P350 and

5 350.1, extraordinary session of the War Presidency. P351 and P351.1,

6 combat report to Srpska Republica, number 441/458. P352 and 352.1, combat

7 report to Republika Srpska army, number 441/459. P353 and 353.1, combat

8 report to the Main Staff dated 05 November 1992.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Any objections? Ms. Loukas.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. There's no objection to the

11 documents that have been indicated. I will just place one matter on the

12 record, and that is that there is a translation issue in relation to one

13 of the documents. That's P350. And Ms. Cmeric has already conveyed the

14 particular aspect that's in dispute to Mr. Hannis.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll -- Mr. Hannis.

16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I have been given that document,

17 and just based on my review of it, I think the changes suggested by the

18 Defence are correct, even though it is a CLSS translation. The same word

19 in B/C/S is translated different in one place and it seems to me it would

20 make sense to use the same English word in all places it appears. We

21 will --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unless of course sometimes the context asks for

23 different translations, but I'll leave that to you and the CLSS. So I

24 take it you'll finally make up your mind and that you'll provide us with a

25 new copy of 350.1.

Page 7305

1 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You may have noticed that Madam Registrar has

3 shortened a bit the description of the exhibits. Not on paper, but she

4 reads as far as necessary in order to identify the documents as unique

5 documents, and you'll find very often a bit broader description on paper

6 as we're used to.

7 So then 349, 350, without translation, and then 351, up to and

8 including 353, including translation, are admitted into evidence. And we

9 get a new translation of 350, which then will bear the number 350.1.

10 Yes, Ms. Loukas. There was another procedural issue you'd like to

11 raise.

12 MS. LOUKAS: [Microphone not activated].

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Always having issues with the microphone, I must say.

15 Your Honour, Your Honours, just in relation to the statement of

16 the witness who just completed his evidence that I used in

17 cross-examination, Your Honours, I propose to tender the statement, in

18 view of the fact that there were significant areas that I did

19 cross-examine on.

20 MR. HANNIS: I have no objection, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. I take it, Ms. Loukas, that wherever

22 you've drawn the attention of the witness to the parts, that's where the

23 most important parts for the Defence.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, I have, Your Honour. Indeed, I have.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The others, although then in evidence, are not the

Page 7306

1 most important ones for the --

2 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour. I have the relevant

3 documents here in both English and B/C/S.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be?


6 JUDGE ORIE: D30, thank you. And the original is English. Is

7 there a B/C/S translation for it? That would then be D30.1. So that

8 Mr. Krajisnik can read it in his own language. Ms. Loukas, if you would

9 allow me just to make one short comment on the cross-examination. As you

10 may have noticed, when you were about to object, you did not really object

11 against Mr. Hannis. I told Mr. Hannis that some of the questions were

12 rather comment than a question to the witness. Well, asking the witness

13 to confirm that his testimony was what it was is also a comment to the

14 extent that you indicated, that it's an important part of the testimony of

15 the witness which is of course just as much I would say comment. Rather,

16 it doesn't bring anything new. There was no need to stop you and you

17 stayed within limits, but if the parties could refrain from putting by

18 their own means the emphasis on what the testimony is, then -- and

19 otherwise, one could even ask ourselves whether the parties could not say

20 of major importance for us is that and that and that part. It's nothing

21 else if you asked witness: Is that what you said? Yes, that's what I

22 said. Okay. And of course the Chamber is aware that that's of importance

23 for the Defence. Every piece of the testimony is important for the

24 Chamber.

25 MS. LOUKAS: I think I'll have to reread what Your Honour said

Page 7307

1 before I can agree entirely.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Some parts you said: Was this your evidence? Then

3 you repeated it literally, and the witness said yes.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, I see.

5 JUDGE ORIE: These were mainly issues the Chamber can imagine

6 needs some special emphasis as far as the Defence is concerned. Yes. So

7 that's to that extent it's mainly -- it's not asking a question to a

8 witness but it's underlining the answer he gave already at an earlier

9 stage of his testimony.

10 MS. LOUKAS: This is in relation to the Prosecution or to the

11 Defence?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Both.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, I see.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Both. You did it as well. That's why I try to make

15 you share the -- no. You did it a couple of times, just asking: Was this

16 your testimony? Yes, this was my testimony. There could be hardly any

17 doubt on whether that was his testimony, just as, well, the one issue

18 where I said it was rather comment than a question to the witness.

19 So --

20 MS. LOUKAS: I think I understand now, Your Honour. It's a

21 generalised observation for both Prosecution and Defence.


23 MS. LOUKAS: I understand that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If I was not clear enough, then at least you

25 understood it by now.

Page 7308

1 Is there --

2 MS. LOUKAS: There was a procedural issue I indicated, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to an issue that from

6 the Defence perspective has arisen particularly in relation to two of the

7 witnesses called this week, for example, and it's a matter that I feel is

8 appropriate to put forward a Defence perspective in relation to the

9 procedures that are being adopted by the Prosecution. If one looks, for

10 example, at Witness 144, the protected witness, his evidence was dealt

11 with via 89(F). This was a witness who, Your Honour, in -- and I won't go

12 into the nature of his position or of his evidence, of course, but this

13 was a witness that one might have expected, and it would be appropriate to

14 be called in terms of a -- on a viva voce basis. If one looks at the

15 witness that we have just dealt with today, Mr. Pasic, that was a witness

16 that could have been dealt with on an 89(F) basis or even conceivably on a

17 92 bis basis because the witness has given evidence previously, rather

18 than bringing the witness all the way from his current country.

19 Now, Your Honour, but I guess the main issue is the use of 89(F),

20 where the Prosecution is exercising its discretion in relation to the use

21 of 89(F). And for my part, I place before the Court the Defence's

22 concerns in relation to the use of 89(F). The last witness, in my

23 submission, would have been appropriate for 89(F) and need not have gone

24 through his -- obviously very emotional evidence in this way, whereas the

25 previous witness, Your Honour, in light of the nature of his evidence,

Page 7309

1 would have been appropriate for viva voce testimony, in my submission.

2 And I do place that marker there, and it is an area on which the Defence

3 submits that the Trial Chamber should give some guidance to the

4 Prosecution.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And would you have any suggestion for that guidance?

6 Because giving guidance is one, but ... I mean, because for one witness

7 you say it should not have been 89(F), for the other it should have been.

8 So guidance goes in two direction. Would you have any criteria in your

9 mind?

10 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, obviously the criteria go to the

11 significance of the evidence in relation to what are the major issues in

12 this case. And quite clearly, the sort of evidence given by the last

13 witness, if we are to use the 89(F) procedure, is the sort of evidence

14 that might be appropriate for an 89(F) procedure, whereas we would submit

15 the sort of evidence given by 144 is not appropriate for 89(F), if one

16 makes the comparison. And it was quite a stark example this week, and

17 from the Defence perspective we wish to place that before the Trial

18 Chamber.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Especially you draw our attention to the

20 significance of the --

21 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider whether the Chamber will give

23 some guidance as you requested to the Prosecution. We'll take some time

24 to discuss it.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

Page 7310

1 The other aspect, of course, is in relation to the reading of

2 92 bis summaries. One of the summaries proposed to be read today relates

3 to the transcript, that is, Mr. Adil Draganovic, a witness from

4 Sanski Most, who was dealt with under 92 bis. Now, Your Honour, there was

5 the -- the significance of this is, of course, that this is not merely

6 meant to be a summary of a statement, but what is put forward by the

7 Prosecution is transcript from previous testimony. And in those

8 circumstances, Your Honour, I would submit that it's incumbent upon the

9 Prosecution to also include a summary of the cross-examination.

10 Just prior to Your Honours coming into court I raised this issue

11 with both Mr. Gaynor and Mr. Hannis, because I said I objected to the

12 reading of a summary of this nature when the material -- I mean, if these

13 summaries are for the information of the public so that they know what

14 sort of information is being tendered, where there's transcript being

15 tendered, to merely summarise the evidence in chief, Your Honours, is in

16 my submission inadequate.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, if we want to inform the public about -

18 or Mr. Gaynor - about what is in evidence, would you agree that testimony

19 given in cross-examination would just be as important as in chief?

20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's difficult for us to judge which

21 portions of cross-examination should be summarised. One thing that we do

22 do in looking at the cross-examination in a transcript and deciding what

23 to put in our summary is that if an answer given or an explanation given

24 in cross-examination, then cuts down from something that was said in

25 direct examination, we're not going to put that direct examination

Page 7311

1 statement in the summary. But I propose to Ms. Loukas that perhaps they

2 want to write a cross-examination summary. Because I don't know that I'm

3 going to be able to do a satisfactory job for the Defence of summarising

4 what they think is important in the cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it's, of course, we'll leave out from the

6 summaries what's totally unimportant, but I think that -- first of all,

7 the summaries could be relatively short. I was about to give an

8 indication on what was the subject of the testimony. And isn't it true

9 that counsel always should be aware of what is very important for the

10 other party? So I would not accept that counsel were not in a position to

11 see what the other party considers to be important. But again, these

12 summaries are provided to the other party before being read in court. So

13 if there's any need to introduce a specific element of the

14 cross-examination, I take it that then the Defence will indicate so.

15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we would like to do that. I know with

16 this particular witness that if I were on the Defence side, I suppose one

17 point I would want to make about this witness is that there are some

18 issues that bear on his credibility. For example, there were some

19 allegations about his behaviour as a judge at some point in time. That

20 might be important. But I don't know if that's something that needs to go

21 in the 92 bis summary.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, this raises another matter, and

23 that is to what extent the summaries should reflect -- perhaps it should -

24 specific issues, questions raised in view of the reliability of that

25 witness. Of course, that's very difficult to summarise that, because you

Page 7312

1 quickly would come to a point where you are taking position on whether a

2 certain answer is an indication of unreliability or not. We'll give it

3 some thought, and perhaps for the witness just discussed, perhaps the

4 parties could sit together so that that statement would not be read or, if

5 they have already agreed upon it, that it could be --

6 MR. HANNIS: In that event, Your Honour, perhaps we won't read

7 this one today and save it for a later occasion?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And see whether the suggestions of the Defence

9 could be followed.

10 Ms. Loukas, is there --

11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. There's one further remaining procedural

12 matter. Your Honours will recall on the last housekeeping day, on the 4th

13 of October, I raised the issue of the diary of a witness who gave evidence

14 in late May of this year. And it was indicated by the Prosecution that

15 they were in possession of that diary and had been in possession of that

16 diary, for some time, and had not conveyed it to us. In the

17 circumstances, Your Honour, I can indicate that on the 8th of October we

18 received in court, and by e-mail, a statement of the relevant witness in

19 relation to the diary. I would convey to the Court the Defence's dismay

20 that something -- the statement, in fact, is dated the 2nd of July. Your

21 Honour, that sort of delay in informing the Defence is entirely

22 unacceptable. The fact is that the witness in question gave a declaration

23 in relation to his -- sorry. The investigator, sorry, gave a declaration

24 in relation to the diary in Banja Luka on the 3rd of June.

25 This sort of delay in conveying information to the Defence - that

Page 7313

1 is, from June and July until October - is, as I've indicated, Your Honour,

2 unacceptable from the Defence perspective.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not the diary that still had to be

4 copied, or is it?

5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, it's a diary that was to be conveyed to

6 the Tribunal.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think -- but it first had to be copied.

8 Isn't that -- or am I now confusing two diaries?

9 MR. HANNIS: I think there's another diary you're thinking about.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

11 MR. HANNIS: This is one that we have now provided the B/C/S -- a

12 copy of this witness's diary to the Trial Chamber.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hannis, the objection by the Defence is

14 mainly about delays in delivering messages to them.

15 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. And I have to take responsibility

16 for that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So you accept the criticism as justified?

18 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because --

20 MR. HANNIS: We're all engaged in --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Your previous answers you take responsibility but it

22 was not clear yet for what exactly. So the Defence -- the Prosecution

23 accepts the criticism and I take it also will take care that it will not

24 happen again.

25 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour. As you recall, at that time we

Page 7314

1 were all engaged in other matters that were keeping us very busy as well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apologies accepted. I understood it as

3 apologies.

4 MS. LOUKAS: It's important to be gracious at moments like these,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

7 Then any other procedural issue?

8 MR. STEWART: Well, I have something, Your Honour. I'm perfectly

9 happy for Mr. Hannis to go first.

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, while we had time I was going to try and

11 suggest we go through some exhibits on some previous witnesses, but --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're talking about 200 until 203 or not yet?

13 MR. HANNIS: No. Still not ready on that one, Your Honour.

14 Mr. Margetts's witness earlier in the week, 144, there were still a couple

15 of matters. And for the witness from October 5th, KRAJ 191,

16 Mr. Medanovic, his exhibits.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, Mr. Stewart.

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I haven't been here all week. I knew

19 you were missing me, and of course the other way around as well, Your

20 Honour, naturally. But I've actually come for a specific purpose.

21 Your Honour, I see my client of course in the course of this week,

22 and particularly I went with Ms. Cmeric to see him this morning. And

23 there is a practical issue, Your Honour, which I hope the Trial Chamber

24 can help with. I mentioned it to Mr. Hannis just before we came into

25 court. For the last two or three weeks, I think it is or something like

Page 7315

1 that, we've been having discussions with the Registry in connection with

2 the possibility of some members, not very many, but some members of the

3 team of investigators out in Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina,

4 coming to The Hague to have discussions with Mr. Krajisnik and of course

5 with members of the Defence team. It's clear that Mr. Krajisnik can't go

6 to them.


8 MR. STEWART: From a practical point of view, it's also

9 exceptionally difficult for the Defence team to find time to go to them as

10 well. This is not been easy because there are all sorts of policies and

11 practices and restrictions and so on, some of which have been very

12 helpfully and very flexibly treated in relation to this situation. So

13 that in principle, we do have approval for investigators to come and see

14 Mr. Krajisnik out at the UN Detention Unit. But of course that raises the

15 question of when.

16 This discussions has been going on for some time. Mr. Krajisnik,

17 with justification, we submit, is extremely anxious that this should

18 happen as soon as possible, and we would have liked to set it up a little

19 while ago, but there have been all sorts of hoops and hurdles and so on.

20 So it's in a sense a little overdue anyway. This morning we considered

21 and looked at what were the possibilities, and I should preface this, Your

22 Honour, by saying we got to -- carts to come before horses and so on. We

23 haven't got a confirmed date for the investigators to come, but we believe

24 that they are pretty flexible and available at reasonably short notice.

25 So I can't say we have a date. But, Your Honour, we do have a date in

Page 7316

1 mind which I mentioned to Mr. Hannis, which I now raise with the Trial

2 Chamber. And another point, I should mention it, it is not possible for

3 the investigators to go and see Mr. Krajisnik at the weekend.


5 MR. STEWART: That might not be totally satisfactory anyway. It's

6 a dead issue because it's simply not possible. It has to be during the

7 week. I hope that Your Honours will see that from a practical point of

8 view, for that to happen while the Trial Chamber is sitting on the case is

9 also not really feasible. The hours they're left in the day and the

10 energy left in the day and then the investigators are here in The Hague

11 while Mr. Krajisnik is in court. So from a practical point of view, time

12 is --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.

14 MR. STEWART: -- needed to do so. So Your Honour --

15 JUDGE ORIE: You had a date in your mind.

16 MR. STEWART: Yes. Cutting to the chase, Your Honour, as we say:

17 Specific dates that we did have in mind, subject to confirming, but we're

18 reasonably confident about that, would be Thursday, the 4th, and Friday,

19 the 5th of November. And there are a number of different reasons which

20 would seem to fit together in a positive way, including the fact that --

21 and this I sprung it on Mr. Hannis a few minutes ago, but it seems that

22 that also doesn't probably cause major disruption in terms of scheduling

23 and witness availability as far as the Prosecution are concerned. And it

24 does fit in as well as any other dates in a practical way and is quite

25 soon. It's probably as soon as realistically can be managed without

Page 7317

1 disruption to the Trial Chamber and everybody else. So, Your Honour, we

2 do need to double-check, of course, that they could come that date.

3 Otherwise there would be no point.

4 But that's the position, Your Honour, and that's in principle our

5 request.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, two questions arise: The first one is

7 whether it -- because we're quite close to that date, whether it would

8 cause major problems to the Prosecution. If so, we'll have to see what to

9 do.

10 The second question is that these are two days that we're supposed

11 to sit in court. Would the Defence agree that perhaps at a later stage

12 during a period where we were supposed not to sit, that we have two

13 additional days then so that it's budgetary neutral, as they say nowadays,

14 I think.

15 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, with -- I was very much hoping

16 that Your Honour wouldn't take that attitude because this is --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not taking an attitude. I'm just asking a

18 question.

19 MR. STEWART: Well, all right. I beg your pardon, Your Honour, if

20 I was -- all right, I withdraw that. Your Honour is asking the question

21 then. With respect, Your Honour, it's -- it fits in with the case but it

22 is extra work, Your Honour. We really would strongly urge the Trial

23 Chamber not then to try balance it with those days which are -- they're

24 less than is needed, Your Honour, anyway.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll understand in a couple of minutes from

Page 7318

1 now on why perhaps I put this question at this moment. But so I do

2 understand.

3 Mr. Hannis, have you already considered the 4th and 5th of

4 November?

5 MR. HANNIS: Mr. Stewart did speak to me about this during the

6 break. We do have witnesses scheduled for that week. Whether it's a

7 major problem, it's always a problem because, you know, the witnesses

8 react a certain way when they are scheduled and then they are rescheduled,

9 and it has a cumulative effect. But it's less of a problem on those two

10 days than some other days would be. But again, we would ask to consider

11 the possibility of having this meeting during a time when we weren't going

12 to sit anyway. But I don't know what the rest of the Defence's schedules

13 are.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because the -- I would say the days that would

15 first come into the mind of the Chamber might be the -- just the week

16 after that. 4th and the 5th are a Thursday and Friday, you said?

17 MR. STEWART: Yes, they are, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Friday the 12th is a UN holiday. Of course

19 we would not sit -- if you would delay it for one week, it would fall well

20 within the one sitting weeks.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we discussed this this morning with

22 Mr. Krajisnik. All I can say, I speak for Mr. Krajisnik, but I do

23 certainly pass on his views. His reaction to -- in fact, I had suggested

24 that following week first of all as a possibility, but Mr. Krajisnik's

25 reaction was extremely negative, to a further delay of a week. And in

Page 7319

1 fairness to Mr. Krajisnik, well, of course, I should above all be fair to

2 Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour.


4 MR. STEWART: But in fairness, this is an issue which has been

5 already boiling along for several weeks while we tried to get the

6 practical aspects sorted out. So -- and Your Honour, it's quite a

7 tight -- Mr. Krajisnik wishes to have quite a lot of time with the

8 investigators. It's quite a time-consuming matter for us, the Defence

9 team, to participate in this exercise as well, and we are, Your Honour,

10 faced with a really very heavy programme of witnesses coming up. I don't

11 really submit there could be any serious argument about that. So I'm

12 urging Your Honour to help us as much as possible in relation to the

13 timetable and the dates and the availability of days.


15 MR. STEWART: May I mention while I'm on my feet, Your Honour.


17 MR. STEWART: It's slightly linked to this, although it's a

18 separate point. It's this: That we hope that in all the planning and the

19 scheduling by the Prosecution - in fact, we invite the Prosecution to have

20 regard to this - that something could be borne in mind which may not be

21 sufficiently appreciated until one actually comes across it in practice,

22 which is this: For example, we have a witness coming up, if he is in fact

23 allowed to give evidence at all. But we have a witness coming up later in

24 November, subject to an application to give evidence. If he does, there

25 is total of 235 pages of transcripts of interviews with that witness.

Page 7320

1 There's another witness scheduled for the next few weeks who has

2 130 pages of transcript, and then there's another one who is scheduled, if

3 he comes at all, to come rather later in the new year, but 200 and

4 something pages. But several hundred pages of interviews. Mr. Krajisnik

5 only has available to him in relation to those the English transcript and

6 the B/C/S audiotape. And we discussed this with him this morning as well.

7 Mr. Krajisnik is quite clearly, according to our assessment, under

8 enormous pressure in relation to this case, and is already staying up well

9 after midnight in order to work on this matter, and he has to be in court

10 for five days and travel backwards and forwards. A rough calculation,

11 Your Honour, is we believe, as best we can judge, interviews probably go

12 at broadly the same pace as court proceedings. Court proceedings seem to

13 produce about 20 pages of transcript an hour. So 235 pages of transcript

14 of interviews is 10 or 11 hours of audiotape for Mr. Krajisnik to listen

15 to. Just listening through once. And he comments, by the way, that

16 sometimes the quality is not terribly good so it is really rather tiring.

17 But if Mr. Krajisnik then has got to listen to 11 hours of B/C/S audiotape

18 just once before he even goes back, or pauses to make any notes, or to

19 think about it or to work on it, this is extremely burdensome for him, and

20 we would remind Your Honour the decision has already been taken. But

21 bearing in mind also that Mr. Krajisnik has to deal with transcripts only

22 by listening to audiotapes, because the decision is that he does not have

23 available to him B/C/S transcripts. This is an enormous burden, and any

24 scheduling of witnesses simply has to take account of that. And it's --

25 of course I'm sure the Prosecution are aware in general terms that some of

Page 7321

1 these matters have to be dealt with in this way, but it's only actually by

2 discussing then with Mr. Krajisnik and hearing his description of exactly

3 how he has to work and how long it takes and how much time it takes that

4 one does get the full picture of potentially how enormously burdensome and

5 exhausting this process can be.


7 MR. STEWART: I think I've said enough really to indicate the

8 nature of the difficulty, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's quite clear the point, the issue

10 you pointed out.

11 Well, first of all, the days off. Of course, the Chamber also

12 noted that sometimes the examination of a witness takes less time than the

13 scheduled. That happens. Not only this week, but it happened before as

14 well.

15 So therefore, we gain some time now and then. I'd rather first

16 hear from the parties whether 4th and the 5th would be chosen in such a

17 way that it would cause not too many problems. I did already understand,

18 Mr. Hannis, that it might not cause insurmountable problems. And of

19 course the Chamber would have to consider whether or not to ask

20 compensation, as you wouldn't like, but of course we have to consider it.

21 I put the question to you. Perhaps the Chamber would also like to know

22 more about what exactly is the difference between the 4th and the 5th of

23 November and the 12th, which is a UN holiday, and the 15th until the 19th

24 of November, which is the following week, in which we're not sitting

25 anyhow.

Page 7322

1 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I can help a little bit on that.

2 So far as the difference between the 4th and the 5th, and let's say the

3 11th and the 12th are concerned --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I would rather think about the 12th and the

5 15th -- or 15th and 16th, yes.

6 MR. STEWART: Well, may I take it in steps, Your Honour --


8 MR. STEWART: -- first of all. So far as the difference --

9 because I'll deal with that matter as well. So far as the difference

10 between the 4th and 5th and 11th and 12th are concerned the difference is

11 in effect a week.


13 MR. STEWART: That's it. I mean, it isn't really any more than

14 that because there's no -- in principle there's no greater difficulty. In

15 a sense we use up, if you like, the UN holiday. That may -- I haven't

16 checked this, Your Honour. That can present considerable difficulties as

17 far as access at the UNDU is concerned. So that is something to bear in

18 mind. It's not the easiest of days.

19 I should also say, Your Honour, that planning with two counsel

20 dealing with the process, this schedule of witnesses is not easy, so a

21 great deal of planning has already been done in relation to particular

22 days and weeks, some weeks ahead. But the concern on Mr. Krajisnik's part

23 that a week is a week is a legitimate concern. And we feel it as well, as

24 his Defence team, that really the sooner we are well overdue to get to

25 grips with what's been done and the work that's been done and the material

Page 7323

1 in Pale and elsewhere.

2 So we support Mr. Krajisnik's view that a week earlier is a good

3 thing.

4 So far as the following week is concerned, Your Honour, well, we

5 have -- it is then very disruptive for the Defence, in a way that is

6 probably on balance considerably more disruptive than any consequences

7 of 4th and 5th. We have to then do all kinds of rescheduling and

8 replanning. It's not impossible, but it's very disruptive, both within

9 the Defence team and beyond the Defence team to all sorts of other people.

10 But, well, if we have to do it, we have to do it. But, Your Honour, the

11 witnesses coming along after that break are very heavy witnesses. And

12 when Your Honour says a day is saved, the fact we're not sitting tomorrow

13 saves, if you like, a Loukas day; it saves Ms. Loukas a day in court,

14 because we can rarely afford for both of us to be in court anyway, and

15 Your Honour will notice that we hardly ever are. So it saves a Loukas

16 day. It doesn't save a Stewart day as it happens because I wasn't coming

17 anyway tomorrow.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Of course it also saves Mr. Krajisnik day.

19 MR. STEWART: It does save Mr. Krajisnik's day, of course. That

20 goes without saying, Your Honour. But in relation to the investigators,

21 the important thing, and Mr. Krajisnik's concern is that the investigators

22 should come.

23 But Your Honour I just mention it -- I've mentioned it before.

24 This is a lot of time for us to be involved in the visit of the

25 investigators as well. So we have all the other tasks anyway. Be -- it's

Page 7324

1 not really -- it doesn't solve our problems, Your Honour, to have those

2 two days as non-sitting days and just treat them as the equivalent of two

3 other days when we might not have sat but sit instead. Because this is an

4 extra task for us.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your point.

6 Mr. Hannis, would it be possible that you provide the Chamber with

7 a little bit more insight on the scheduling for the coming weeks and also

8 flexibility and where you expect to be a bit shorter? Because we have to

9 consider either 11 -- as alternatives if we would agree with 4, 5, we'd

10 see what inconveniences or what risks that would take -- would bring.

11 We'd also consider perhaps the 11th and 12th as alternatives, and also

12 some days in the week of the 15th to the 18th of November. But we'd like

13 to have a bit more insight then in what this would cause in terms of time

14 but also in terms of witnesses that would have to stay over for a weekend

15 unnecessarily.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. With regard to the week of

17 November 1st through the 5th, we had three witnesses scheduled who are all

18 coming from the Balkans basically. And they are all talking about the

19 same municipality. So that was part of the reason to have them come that

20 week. We had anticipated that based on how things are going faster than

21 we've been estimating earlier in the trial, that we might have to try and

22 find a fourth witness to fill that week.

23 So if we don't use a fourth --

24 JUDGE ORIE: For how much time were they scheduled in chief, these

25 three witnesses?

Page 7325

1 MR. HANNIS: 11 and a half hours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: 11 and a half hours.

3 MR. HANNIS: And with 60 per cent --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would bring us to approximately 18. Well, no. To

5 20. And that's approximately what we would consider a full week.

6 MR. HANNIS: Right.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So if you are looking for a fourth witness, of

8 course, we -- at least you could consider to refrain from that. And --

9 MR. HANNIS: So if we were to use --

10 JUDGE ORIE: If the 11 hours would be brought back to, well, let's

11 say to 8 plus 6 -- plus 4, would be 12 hours, and if we work efficiency,

12 we might be able to do that in three days, which would then create perhaps

13 some extra time without any need to ask for further compensation.

14 Could perhaps the Defence and Prosecution consider whether they

15 think it would be possible to hear these three witnesses scheduled for the

16 1st until the 5th of November with all discipline which the parties always

17 show to have to deal with it in three days, so the 4th and 5th would

18 become available. That's something to be considered.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's extremely disruptive. We're

20 getting to the point where the Defence would rather say forget it. We'll

21 just cope with the situation because -- and Mr. Krajisnik will just have

22 to not come to court for a couple of days. Because this is --

23 JUDGE ORIE: What we see is that at the present pace, we're going

24 through witnesses a bit more quickly, and I take it that the Defence was

25 about to prepare for three witnesses to be heard in court during five days

Page 7326

1 for that week.

2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. May I say that we prepare in a

3 way that we also have to decide who is doing which witnesses. Your

4 Honour, this is an area where the relative small size of the Defence team,

5 in terms of the numbers of counsel available, which is only two of us, is

6 pretty significant, Your Honour. We have to do very careful planning

7 about who does which witness, on what days. Of course we allow for the

8 fact that witnesses go a little bit quicker. We make estimates. But

9 there's a -- it's quite often it's the position is that a particular

10 witness is being brought for a particular day, and we know that, and that

11 is actually important to us in terms of planning. If we didn't know that,

12 the planning which is already difficult would often become absolutely

13 impossible. It's -- I'm not too -- I should say, Your Honour, I'm not too

14 sanguine in any case about simply being able to squeeze witnesses into

15 fewer days we had in mind. Your Honour, I can assure Your Honour if we

16 felt we could do that, routinely and normally, we would do it anyway. We

17 don't have particular incentive or need to be stretching witnesses.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course.

19 MR. STEWART: It just can't be done sometimes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's not what I am asking. I was just trying

21 to find out whether saving some time on the examination of witnesses in

22 court, which would save two days, either Loukas time or Stewart time, I do

23 understand that there is some -- that there are some -- it would certainly

24 not be easy to reschedule all your preparation activities, but it would --

25 well, let's say two days counsel time and two days time of Mr. Krajisnik

Page 7327

1 not being in court as well, and -- because you are very much opposed

2 against the idea of finding compensation. Of course, we'll not sit any

3 days extra at another time. But of course it creates other problems. I'm

4 aware of that.

5 Let me say the following: We have a few suggestions now on our

6 table. That is, either the 4th or the 5th, without any compensation, and

7 still to be seen what happens during that week. Three witnesses, two

8 witnesses. At least not a fourth witness.

9 Then we have an option to the 11 and the 12th. I haven't heard

10 about the schedule of that week. I also do understand that the 12th would

11 not be a good day because during UN holidays, as you suggested, there

12 might be no possibility of visitors going to the UN Detention Unit.

13 So that might not be a good solution.

14 Then we have an option of having these investigators to come in

15 the week of the 15th until the 18th of November, which was not very much

16 welcomed, as I understand, especially not by Mr. Krajisnik. I'd like the

17 parties to sit together and to see what these options, what would be

18 possible, and whether you could come to any agreement. If not, of course,

19 the Chamber will have to decide whether we'll seek compensation for not

20 sitting, if it would be the 4th and the 5th of November, or that we would

21 say: No. The investigator should preferably come on the week of the 15th

22 until the 19th of November.

23 So I will ask you to reconsider your positions and to see what

24 solution could be reached at. If there's no solution next Monday or

25 Tuesday, then the Chamber will give a decision.

Page 7328

1 MR. HANNIS: We'll meet together and discuss and maybe we can

2 propose something to you tomorrow, Your Honour. I thought as we were

3 talking now of one other possibility, next week has been a difficult week

4 to estimate because -- to estimate because the witness we have coming on

5 Tuesday is a witness who is appearing with regard to a subpoena and

6 there's an issue about whether or not he may be a hostile witness, and it

7 might take a little longer to do his examination-in-chief. Mr. Stewart

8 and I talked about that briefly during the break.

9 There may actually be a little more time next week where we can

10 move up maybe one of the witnesses from the 1st through the 5th of

11 November and put him in at the end of next week. Perhaps the short

12 three-hour witness from Novi Grad that we had scheduled for, I think the

13 2nd and 3rd of November, we could do on Thursday and Friday of next week.

14 Because Friday the only thing we have is the cross-examination by

15 videolink, and I believe that's not going to take very long.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do see, Mr. Hannis, that you come up with

17 even another option that might bring us a solution. Of course, I haven't

18 heard your response. I don't -- we don't have to hear it now right away.

19 But if you could sit together and see whether you could find any solution

20 for the problem as far as the 5th and -- 4th and 5th of November is

21 concerned. The Chamber will seriously consider that. And that's where we

22 are at this moment.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I just reiterate that of course one of

24 the things I have to do straight away, haven't had a chance to do since

25 the discussion this morning, is just double-check the availability of the

Page 7329

1 investigators to come on those dates, because I don't want to waste

2 everybody's time without checking that as soon as I possibly can, which I

3 will.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. And perhaps if you introduce that in

5 your conversations with Mr. Hannis. And if they would say we are only

6 available on the week of the 15th of November, we'll hear from you.

7 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. Yes, of course.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. This issue has been sufficiently dealt with

9 for this moment. We'll hear from the parties at a later stage.

10 Any further issues? Mr. Hannis, procedural ones?

11 MR. HANNIS: Nothing other than what I mentioned earlier, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have two additional procedural issues I'd like

14 to raise, one of them in open session, the next one in private session.

15 The Chamber has given it some thought on what the perspectives in

16 this case are, and the Chamber is inclined to issue a scheduling order

17 which would cover the whole of the trial. Of course, it would be not very

18 detailed. The Chamber has considered the matter and has identified a few

19 data which might be important for such a scheduling order, one of them

20 being that the average examination-in-chief of witnesses at this moment is

21 about three hours, each witness; that procedural issues are consuming

22 around 15 per cent of court time. The Chamber would very much like this

23 to be reduced. That the cross-examination is, until now, calculated at

24 about 60 per cent of the examination-in-chief, although frequently takes

25 less.

Page 7330

1 The Chamber also understands that it might be difficult for the

2 Defence to give an estimate on how many witnesses they would call if they

3 would have to present their case. That would mean that, assuming that

4 after the case presentation by the Prosecution, 98 bis motion would be

5 filed, just an assumption. I don't know whether -- you don't have to

6 express any view at this moment, Mr. Stewart. But let's assume that's now

7 and then what happens, isn't it? And if that motion would not be fully

8 granted, then that would mean that the Defence would have to present its

9 case. And experience learns us that the case presentation of a Defence

10 case usually does take 60 per cent or less of the time Prosecution case

11 takes.

12 So that's an assumption. The Chamber is fully aware of that.

13 These are some basics, to some extent assumptions, to some extent data

14 gained by experience, that the Chamber has used to draft a provisional

15 calendar for the year 2005, 2006, which is there for discussion. It

16 would -- just to give you a short outline. It would include the close of

17 the Prosecution case late April, 22nd of April. It would also include

18 that during the months January until March, we'll not sit during three

19 weeks. Then in -- I'll hand it out to you soon. We have a date set then

20 for when the 98 bis motion should be filed, if the Defence intends to do

21 that, how much time would then be given to the Prosecution and when you

22 could expect a decision on such a motion, if it would be filed. This also

23 makes clear that the purpose is not only to impose a time schedule upon

24 the parties but that the Chamber includes itself in this, I would say,

25 disciplinary exercise, disciplinary to say in the terms of discipline

Page 7331

1 rather than disciplinary as it's often used as far as the legal profession

2 is concerned.

3 Then it continues with what would happen if such a motion, if

4 filed, would not be fully granted, what kind of schedule there would be

5 then and what this would mean for the timing of the close of the Defence

6 case, final briefs, closing arguments and when the judgement to be

7 delivered.

8 I hand it out to the parties. It's one A4. Parties are invited

9 next week at an appropriate moment to spend together with the Chamber half

10 an hour on the issue. That would mean that each party can comment on it

11 or make any suggestions, whatever observations the parties would like to

12 make, ten minutes each. And then we have another round of each five

13 minutes. So in half an hour the Chamber gets a clear impression of what

14 position the parties would take in view of such a provisional calendar.

15 That would then probably result in a scheduling order.

16 That's it.

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I ask a practical matter at this

18 point?


20 MR. STEWART: I think it's some weeks ago, I'm not making a big

21 issue of this, some weeks ago I asked the Prosecution, I think I

22 approached Mr. Harmon direct, actually, but I asked the Prosecution if

23 they would just give us information which I assume they must have, on the

24 progress of their case, the number of witnesses that had been heard, how

25 many hours, that --

Page 7332

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Until now, we have out of approximately 100

2 scheduled witnesses, we have heard I think 39 or 40. So approximately 60

3 per cent to be left. So there we are. And I think the Prosecution

4 examination-in-chief took until now close to 130 hours. And on the basis

5 of the use of 89(F) and 92 bis, the Chamber has observed that the balance

6 between the time in court and out of court is a bit different from what it

7 was and has taken that into account as well while drafting this

8 provisional calendar. The Chamber also has considered how much time it

9 approximately takes, and on average, every six weeks in court, so time to

10 sit, not weeks of, six weeks allows us, on the basis of witnesses, three

11 of each three hours in chief, allows us to hear some 20 witnesses in six

12 weeks, sitting time.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, my request was in effect a simple and

14 innocent one. I think at some point I sent an e-mail to both the

15 Prosecution and the Trial Chamber, because I suppose that either or both

16 would have the necessary information, and in fact of course I know that

17 the Trial Chamber has the information, because I've seen bits of paper

18 with figures and schedules and markings and so on. My request in effect

19 was, whether it comes from the Prosecution or the Trial Chamber, since

20 this is actually simply not tendentious, but it is just data, if there are

21 printouts, if there is information, which I believe there is, that can be

22 produced, that just shows -- I think it's the sort of data which the Trial

23 Chamber is working from. Please may we have it, because the more

24 information we've got -- because actually what we had had in mind over the

25 last two or three weeks was that we were considering what we could propose

Page 7333

1 by way of constructive scheduling. It's the Trial Chamber's primary

2 responsibility, of course. But if we could have as much as this data

3 which presumably can be run off somebody's computer. That would be

4 extremely hem. It's just factual, isn't it? It's --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's factual. I don't know whether everything

6 is computerised. I can tell you that approximately for the remaining 60

7 witnesses, or perhaps 62, 63, that number could still vary as well, we're

8 not quite sure about that, we have taken into account approximately 18

9 weeks of time sitting in court to hear those witnesses. That's more or

10 less in the schedule. Which would bring total examination-in-chief of

11 Prosecution witnesses to approximately 300 hours. And on the basis of

12 what I just said, that would mean some for examination-in-chief of Defence

13 witnesses - of course we do not know that number yet - is calculated at

14 approximately 200 hours in court.

15 MR. STEWART: Indeed. Your Honour, with respect to, all I had in

16 mind was probably the more actual information we have -- the point was

17 really we could do it ourselves over hours and hours. I didn't want

18 Ms. Cmeric, for example, to have to do work that has already been done

19 within the Trial Chamber or the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE ORIE: But whatever information you would need, tell us. Of

21 course, we have given here on this provisional calendar. You see what the

22 result is.

23 MR. STEWART: I see the result, Your Honour. Yes, indeed.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What not to sit, how many weeks not to sit, at what

25 date we would expect what to happen. Of course, the schedule for this

Page 7334

1 year is already clear to the parties. One week of November, I think

2 another two weeks off in December. Not sitting the week of the 10th of

3 January. I think we have a late start. That's the second week of 2005.

4 If there are any questions, please -- perhaps the best thing to do

5 is to put them to Mr. Zahar of Chambers.

6 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. Perhaps communicating, if

7 I may, because Mr. Harmon in fact is responsible, Mr. Harmon knows what

8 I'm asking for because he has said he will give it to me, and I realise

9 everybody's got work to do. I think my point is that given what the Trial

10 Chamber is now asking us to consider, please, the sooner then Mr. Harmon

11 and his team can now give me the information which we've been discussing

12 over the last few weeks --

13 JUDGE ORIE: I would suggest that you --

14 MR. STEWART: -- I can actually use it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I would suggest that you either first address

16 Mr. Zahar who is very much involved in this exercise.

17 MR. STEWART: Certainly, Your Honour. That's a very helpful

18 suggestion and we shall do that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Well, that's -- then we have I think the

20 statistics on how much time that was used until now. It's all there. So

21 it could be -- I mean it's just a matter of computing time.

22 There's one procedural issue I'd like to raise but in private

23 session. Could we turn to private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 7335











11 Page 7335 redacted. Private session.















Page 7336











11 Page 7336 redacted. Private session.















Page 7337











11 Page 7337 redacted. Private session.















Page 7338

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Since there seem to be no further procedural issues

24 to be raised at this moment, we would conclude for the day.

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we had proposed going through the

Page 7339

1 exhibits for a couple of witnesses.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree.

3 MR. HANNIS: We could read 92 bis summaries or we could save that

4 for spare time next week.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether we have any spare time next

6 week. So the Chamber would prefer to have the 92 bis statements read into

7 the transcript, to the extent they are available, and not still be subject

8 to debate between the parties. Yes.

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't know which matter you want to

10 proceed with first. All these outstanding exhibits related to

11 Mr. Medanovic.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you'd first deal with them.

13 MR. HANNIS: And they were Exhibits 309 through 312, I believe.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you assist us.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P309, 92 bis package. Exhibit P310, map,

16 ethnic composition of Kljuc. P311, photograph of post office and

17 community centre. And P312, photograph of Manjaca Detention Centre, dated

18 30 August 1992.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

20 MS. LOUKAS: There's no objection, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then Exhibits 309 up until and including 312 are

22 admitted into evidence.

23 Then we still have the exhibits of Witness 144. Is that --

24 Mr. Margetts.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the statement has been redacted in

Page 7340

1 accordance with the Court ruling, and we have that to distribute and

2 replace the other statement now.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's under seal.

4 Ms. Loukas, you've seen the new redacted version. No objection?

5 MS. LOUKAS: No objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, then we have new versions of

7 P Exhibit?

8 THE REGISTRAR: P325, under seal.


10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in regard to Exhibit P330, the Defence

11 raised an objection. I forwarded after court last night an e-mail to the

12 Defence relating to this document, indicating that it had been seized by

13 the Office of the Prosecutor on the 27th of February from the archives of

14 the CSB in Banja Luka. I have some further information --

15 JUDGE ORIE: This year, Mr. Margetts?

16 MR. MARGETTS: Sorry. 27 February 1998.


18 MR. MARGETTS: I have further information that that seizure on

19 27 February 1998 was conducted in accordance with a search warrant and

20 that the document arrived at the evidence vault of the Office of the

21 Prosecutor on the 9th of March, 1998. The document purports to be a

22 National Security Centre Banja Luka report, and so its seizure from the

23 CSB archives is consistent with its purported origin. I haven't received

24 a response from the Defence as yet to that further information.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, are you already in a position to respond

Page 7341

1 and tell us whether your objection stands? Because then I would say the

2 seal and the signature remain, but ...

3 MS. LOUKAS: Well, there is still that issue, of course, Your

4 Honour. So my objection still stands.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And is it your position that such a document, if

6 without seal and signature, is not a document that could be admitted into

7 evidence? I mean, I do understand that if a document is signed, that this

8 certainly adds to -- at least could add to the probative value of the

9 document, just assuming that it's not a false signature, et cetera. But a

10 document with signature is more than a document without. But --

11 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: As far as admissibility is concerned.

13 MS. LOUKAS: On the question of admissibility, Your Honour, of

14 course, in terms of the Rules of the Tribunal relating to evidence, the

15 Tribunal can inform itself in any way it sees fit, and the traditional --

16 often the traditional Rules of Evidence are dealt with differently here.

17 So the question now becomes one not so much of admissibility but of

18 weight.


20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the matter having been reduced now from

22 admissibility to weight, which is not an unimportant matter, I want to

23 stress that.

24 MS. LOUKAS: I like to think it's very important, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: There's no reason not to admit into evidence

Page 7342

1 Exhibit P330. So it's admitted.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour pleases.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Any further issue.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, of course there's also the translation, Your

5 Honour, the translation of that particular document.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There were problems about the translation. So

7 I said P330. P330.1 not being included until any problem in respect of

8 translation is resolved.

9 MS. LOUKAS: I can just indicate further in relation to

10 translation, Your Honours will recall that I placed on the record that

11 there were translation issues that Ms. Cmeric had identified, significant

12 translation issues. And the delineation of which particular translation

13 issues they were was conveyed by Ms. Cmeric to Mr. Margetts, and the

14 Prosecution is now fully aware of them.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetts, will we hear --

16 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We will refer back to CLSS

17 and --

18 JUDGE ORIE: And then you will inform the Chamber. And that would

19 then include 330.1.


21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So only P330, the original of this document, is

22 admitted into evidence.

23 Any further procedural issues?

24 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour, other than reading in some of these

25 summaries.

Page 7343

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.

2 MR. HANNIS: I don't know if you want to do that after a break.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It seems as if there's some ...

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Any further issues as far as the Defence is

6 concerned?

7 Mr. Krajisnik, no issues?

8 Okay. Then we'll read into the -- let me just have a look at what

9 time we are. Yes. Could you please start reading some 92 bis, and we'll

10 see -- perhaps we might -- if we come to the next break and we're not

11 finished yet, we might leave the others for next week. But could you give

12 it a start, Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'll commence with 92 bis summary for

14 a Sanski Most witness, Mr. Besim Islamcevic. That's KRAJ 040.

15 This witness is a Muslim from Podbrijezje in Sanski Most

16 municipality. He attended a number of meetings as a Muslim

17 representative, with Serb authorities, in Sanski Most in 1992.

18 In March and April of 1992, the witness observed soldiers wearing

19 olive-drab coloured uniforms unloading rifles from two olive-drab coloured

20 JNA trucks. He saw the rifles being distributed to Serb inhabitants.

21 The witness observed people wearing Serbian Defence Forces, that

22 is, SOS, insignia in Sanski Most town destroying Muslim shops and

23 establishments.

24 After the Serb authorities in Sanski Most asked for Muslims to

25 surrender their weapons, the witness handed in a pistol.

Page 7344

1 The witness and others heard that the Serb authorities intended to

2 evacuate the Muslim population of Podbrijezje. In the second half of June

3 1992, the witness and other Muslim representatives requested a meeting

4 with Vladimir Vrkes, president of the SDS in Sanski Most. At the meeting,

5 the Serb representatives explained the steps to be taken to organise the

6 evacuation of Muslims from Podbrijezje. Evacuation procedures included

7 signing a document which transferred all of the signer's property to the

8 SDS. The witness and other Muslims signed a loyalty oath to the Serb

9 authorities.

10 On 27 July 1992, the witness's father-in-law was in an ambulance

11 marked with a visible red cross, on his way to a regular dialysis

12 appointment when the ambulance was stopped by three Serb soldiers. The

13 soldiers asked for any Muslim patients to come out of the ambulance. The

14 patients complied and were taken away. They remain missing. That night,

15 Podbrijezje was attacked. The witness heard shots and saw burning stables

16 and roofs. The next day, the witness told Vrkes about the attack. Vrkes

17 dismissed it as a "fake attack."

18 Some time after this, the witness met again with Vrkes. Vrkes

19 asked the witness to tell him the content of text which the witness, as a

20 Muslim representative, intended to present at a subsequent meeting with UN

21 representatives in Topusko, the subject of which was the reasons the

22 Muslim population had for wanting to leave Sanski Most.

23 The witness read to Vrkes the text he planned to present at the

24 Topusko meeting. It summarised the situation in Sanski Most at the time.

25 In the text, the witness pointed out that up until that time, good

Page 7345

1 relations had existed between Muslims and Serbs, but then 26 mosques in

2 Sanski Most were destroyed. The witness also stated that the Serb

3 authorities were not in a position to ensure security for property, to

4 provide education, to ensure the right to work, to pension schemes, and

5 medical care; in short, the witness was clear that the survival of the

6 Muslim population in Sanski Most was now under threat. After the witness

7 finished reading, Vrkes totally rejected the witness's draft statement and

8 amended it as he saw fit.

9 On 19 August 1992, the witness attended the Topusko meeting as a

10 representative of the Muslim people in Sanski Most. The witness travelled

11 to the meeting with Vrkes, along with others. En route, between the

12 borders of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, Vrkes said, "Soon there

13 will be no border here. All this will be one. All this will be Serb

14 land."

15 At the meeting, the witness presented his revised text to the

16 assembly. Sergio de Mello, the UN representative, asked the Muslims to

17 stay behind at the end of the meeting. The witness told de Mello that

18 there was a lot of disturbance in Sanski Most, such as lootings and

19 destruction of religious buildings and everything else that had been

20 redacted by Vrkes from the speech the witness gave during the meeting.

21 The witness reported two major attacks on the Trnovo and Hrustovo local

22 communes. A large number of civilians had been killed in Hrustovo.

23 De Mello replied that he knew about Hrustovo. De Mello also stated that

24 the UN would not assist in the movement of the population of Sanski Most.

25 The witness describes the obligations of the Muslims to pay

Page 7346

1 outstanding taxes and utility bills and to receive certificates from banks

2 to prove that they had no outstanding debts before the Serb municipal

3 authorities would issue certificates permitting them to leave Sanski Most.

4 The witness describes convoys of Muslims that he saw leaving

5 Sanski Most. None of them left voluntarily, although they were forced to

6 sign papers that stated otherwise. One convoy consisted of 1.080 Muslim

7 refugees from Mahala who had taken refuge in Podbrijezje after Mahala was

8 shelled and set afire. The Serb army and the chief of police rounded up

9 the 1.080 people, expelled them from Podbrijezje. Another convoy

10 consisted of Muslim citizens from part of the right bank of Sanski Most.

11 In early September 1992, the witness and other Muslim

12 representatives met with Vrkes and members of the Serb Crisis Staff. They

13 determined that they would not -- need at least 15 to 20 buses to evacuate

14 the Muslims from Sanski Most.

15 The witness describes --

16 Sorry. This was a mistake. They would need at least 15 to 20

17 buses. Apologies.

18 The witness describes the convoy of lorries and buses carrying

19 approximately 2.500 people, which left Sanski Most, escorted by civilian

20 and military police, on or about 2 September 1992. The Muslims were not

21 leaving voluntarily; they were leaving in order to save themselves and

22 their children.

23 The witness describes his meeting with Karadzic and Rasula on

24 25 September 1992 in Banja Luka. Karadzic encouraged the witness to help

25 the Serb authorities to establish themselves. Karadzic explained to the

Page 7347

1 witness that the Serbs would wage war and that the Muslims would work.

2 Karadzic explained that, after a Serb state was established, those who

3 wanted to remain and work would be allowed to remain, and those who did

4 not would be allowed to leave. Karadzic told Rasula: "Let them work and

5 we will wage war."

6 Throughout the rest of 1992, the witness and other Muslims who

7 remained in Sanski Most performed work duty tasks assigned to them by Serb

8 authorities, including the removal of rubble from sites of destroyed

9 mosques.

10 That is the end of the summary.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that it would be time for another

12 summary to be read, or two short ones.

13 Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We have some short ones, and for

15 the sake of the court reporter, I'm going to go out of order and the next

16 one I'm going to read is a witness from Brcko, with protective measures.

17 This is Witness KRAJ 220.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And the protective measures were?

19 MR. HANNIS: This was a witness from the Jelisic case and the

20 protective measures were carried over from that case, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: He was -- pseudonym, Madam Registrar? Could you

22 please check. Because witnesses who have testified -- no. It's 92 bis,

23 of course.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, he had a pseudonym in the Jelisic case

25 and we requested a pseudonym in this case as well.

Page 7348

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the only protective measure. Please

2 proceed.

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. This witness was taken from his home in

4 Brcko by Serb soldiers on 6 May 1992 to the Laser bus company and detained

5 there for two days until transferred to Luka Camp. There were

6 approximately 400 Muslims and Croats detained at Luka while the witness

7 was there. Goran Jelisic said he was the boss at Luka.

8 Goran Jelisic killed several civilian detainees between 8 May and

9 18 May 1992 at Luka. The witness personally saw two of those killings.

10 He had to carry a number of dead bodies and clean up the area where the

11 killings took place. He saw piles of dead bodies and notes that a number

12 were thrown into the Sava River.

13 The witness was later taken to Batkovic camp and detained there

14 until he was exchanged on the 12th of October, 1992.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The summary said on or about the 12th.

16 MR. HANNIS: On or about 12 October, 1992. Correct, Your Honour.


18 MR. HANNIS: That concludes that summary. Do you want to take a

19 break or ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact if you could read another

21 one, we'll then finish for the day.

22 MR. HANNIS: I will read another -- I will read another one from

23 Brcko. Witness with a pseudonym. This was KRAJ 436. The witness

24 provides evidence of killing and sexual assault in June 1992, when she was

25 aged 13 years.

Page 7349

1 On 21 June 1992, the witness and her family were asleep on the

2 ground floor of her house. A group of soldiers identified themselves

3 as "the police" and ordered the door opened. The family complied and the

4 soldiers came into the house. All of the soldiers were in uniform and

5 were armed. The witness saw a soldier beat and then shoot her

6 grandmother, killing her. The witness was taken out of the house and told

7 by the soldiers that the remainder of her family had also been executed.

8 This information later turned out to be incorrect, but the witness

9 believed that the rest of her family had in fact been killed.

10 The witness was then forced to get into a car with a member of the

11 Bosnian Serb forces. During the drive, the man told the witness, "You

12 have to blame your Alija for this." The man took the witness to an

13 apartment in Brcko, where he detained her for two or three days. At the

14 apartment, the man sexually assaulted the witness several times.

15 That concludes this summary, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

17 We'll then conclude not only for the day but for the week as well.

18 We'll not sit tomorrow. I wish the Defence a lot of strength in mastering

19 the EDS system, CaseMap and LiveNote because that's on your programme for

20 tomorrow as far as I understand.

21 MR. STEWART: I've already done it, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So Ms. Loukas is the victim for tomorrow. Yes.

23 Well, I see both Mr. Krajisnik and --

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I just wish to bring to your attention

25 that Mr. Krajisnik --

Page 7350

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For a moment there I thought you had

3 forgotten about me, Your Honour. I would kindly like to address the Trial

4 Chamber, but in a closed session, in relation to an item that you referred

5 to a moment ago where you turned into a private session as well.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session. I at the same

7 time look at the clock. We might not have any more than five to seven

8 minutes.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 Page 7351 redacted. Private session.















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11 Page 7352 redacted. Private session.















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11 Page 7353 redacted. Private session.















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11 Page 7354 redacted. Private session.















Page 7355

1 (redacted)

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10 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.05 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

20 October, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.