Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7820

1 Tuesday, 2 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-00-39-T, The Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Ms. Edgerton, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief

11 of the witness?

12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Madam Usher, could you please escort

14 Mr. Jahic into the courtroom.

15 Yes, Ms. Loukas.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. While the witness is being brought

17 in, to indicate that I received via email at 6.00 yesterday evening a

18 intercept witness authentication receipt. This is rather late, but

19 leaving that aside, I had a quick word with Ms. Edgerton prior to

20 Your Honours coming on the Bench, and apparently Ms. Edgerton does not

21 propose to tender this particular document, but to deal with, I think,

22 three of the conversations via viva voce questioning. So there -- I guess

23 there are basically two points. First of all, Your Honour, it's not

24 acceptable to have this sort of material served so late. And I place a

25 marker there to avoid future occurrences of this nature. I appreciate

Page 7821

1 that Ms. Edgerton is doing her best with the time she has available, but

2 that's what we have to do as well, Your Honour. And it places additional

3 strain on the Defence.

4 Now -- and the second point is, of course, that, Your Honour, I

5 would be objecting to analyses of conversation based on the sort of

6 conjecture and speculation that's contained within the sort of comments

7 that are made on these, in relation to these intercepts. So I'm just

8 placing that on the record now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You said you would be objecting to analyses of

10 conversation based on the -- yes. Ms. Edgerton.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour's aware of the sort of document we're

12 dealing with.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. But we haven't seen it in relation

14 to this witness. So whether there's any conjecture or speculation, we do

15 not know. But at least you consider it to be speculative and --

16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: I think we'll deal with it at the time,

19 Your Honour, after the witness has heard the intercepts in their

20 entirety.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you noticed the marker made by

22 Ms. Loukas, and of course the conjecture and speculation, of course,

23 Ms. Loukas, we know what to expect from the Defence.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But we -- of course we can't rule on it.

Page 7822

1 MS. LOUKAS: Not in advance. I'm just placing a marker there so

2 Your Honours are aware of it and we can deal with it --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, and not be surprised at that moment when it

4 comes.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, please escort Mr. Jahic into the

7 courtroom.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Jahic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

12 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony

13 yesterday.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

19 Q. Mr. Jahic, to begin with this morning I would just like to ask you

20 three brief questions in relation to the testimony you gave to the Trial

21 Chamber yesterday.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And for the information of the Trial Chamber, the first question

24 rises at page 9 of yesterday's transcript beginning at line number 2.

25 Mr. Jahic, yesterday you told us that Stup was to the north of

Page 7823

1 Ahatovici because there's Bojnik, and it's at the entrance to the city of

2 Sarajevo itself. And I wonder in light of that, when you answered that

3 first question, you didn't have the map that you now have beside you

4 available. Could you just turn to that map and see if you can locate the

5 place known as Stup on that map.

6 A. Just before doing that, I would maybe like to make a correction.

7 My answer at the time was a bit hasty. Perhaps Stup is not where I said

8 it was. Thinking back, I now think it's south of Ahatovici. I may have

9 been wrong before. But I can show it on the map, yes.

10 Q. If you could quickly do that.

11 A. Stup is here.

12 MS. EDGERTON: I believe the witness is indicating a location

13 south of the settlement of Ahatovici.

14 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Jahic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. And I think now, that having been done, we could

17 remove the map to allow the interpreters to better see the witness as he's

18 continuing to speak.

19 Now, just to move on to the second question. Mr. Jahic, yesterday

20 at page 51 of the transcript of yesterday's testimony, but in any case

21 yesterday, you identified a friend of yours by the name of Armin Mujkic

22 who told you that a man who threw some kind of gas bomb into the cistern

23 was a former chauffeur or bodyguard for Krajisnik and Jovo Tintor.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, the transcript

25 at page 51 indicates it was a friend of mine, very close friend of mine,

Page 7824

1 et cetera, et cetera. And I think that Ms. Edgerton said chauffeur or

2 bodyguard. The actual evidence is chauffeur and bodyguard.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Chauffeur and bodyguard. Correct.

4 Q. Mr. Jahic --

5 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Jahic, did your friend identify this person by any kind of

7 name or nickname?

8 A. I cannot recall with any certainty or precision now. I just

9 remember that he was very certain about the identity of that person

10 because this friend of mine had been in the reserve police force, in the

11 police administration of Novi Grad, and it was his job to guard the house

12 of Mr. Krajisnik.

13 Q. Thank you. On the same page of the transcript, page 51,

14 Mr. Jahic, you mentioned there was one occasion when this SRNA television

15 from Pale arrived, and then further down you say "we received a piece of

16 paper with a text that we were supposed to reproduce before the TV

17 cameras." Going on to page 52 of the transcript.

18 Mr. Jahic, at this time, do you recall what the paper read, what

19 you were told to say?

20 A. For the most part, the text was to the effect that there was a

21 large concentration of the Green Beret, mujahedin, HOS forces, foreign

22 mercenaries in Ahatovici, that they were paid a lot of money, that we were

23 mercenaries ourselves, that the conditions in the camp were very good

24 indeed, and so on.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jahic.

Page 7825

1 MS. EDGERTON: And now, Your Honour, I'll be moving to the

2 intercepted communications at this time.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Edgerton.


5 Q. I have now, Mr. Jahic, three intercepted telephone communications

6 that I'd like you to listen to in succession.

7 MS. EDGERTON: And Your Honours, I should note, we'll be seeking

8 to play the audios of these communications in their entirety. None of

9 these intercepted communications -- none of the audios for these

10 communications have previously been tendered, but one of them has had its

11 transcript marked as Exhibit P282. That would be the one which on your

12 list, Your Honour, is incorrectly noted as the 5th of June. It should

13 read the 8th of June -- sorry, the 15th of June 1992.

14 Now, Your Honour, just in terms of marking the audios and

15 transcripts, those three intercepts are being -- with the related

16 transcripts prepared on one CD for the Trial Chamber, which is being

17 provided in short order. I would be looking in part for Your Honours'

18 direction, but what I would propose to do is to mark that CD with the

19 audios and related transcripts as one exhibit.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And then withdraw 282 -- yes, 282, or?

21 MS. EDGERTON: There lies the problem, Your Honour. 282 was the

22 number of a transcript that was shown to a previous witness, protected

23 witness 623. So I think we have to leave 282 in place, and give these now

24 a further new number.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Although it should be avoided that we give the same

Page 7826

1 exhibits under different numbers, you're allowed to proceed as you

2 suggested. So we have -- the 282 transcript now also appears in the new

3 bundle, both audio and on paper which then has number, Madam Registrar?

4 THE REGISTRAR: The audio will be Prosecution Exhibit P369. The

5 transcript of 30 May 1992 will be P369A. The transcript from 08/06/1992

6 will be P369B. And the transcript of 15 June 1992 will be P369C.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the translation will then have the .1

8 numbers. Yes.

9 MS. EDGERTON: And further, Your Honour, we're providing the Trial

10 Chamber and the witness today with highlighted copies of those transcripts

11 because what I'd like to do is play them, and then direct the witness back

12 to particular portions of the transcript. So this is only by way of ease

13 of reference for the people in Court today. And we'll begin when everyone

14 has received their copies with the intercept of 30 May 1992.

15 If we could begin then.

16 Q. Mr. Jahic, I'd like you to listen closely to this intercepted

17 communication. And if it helps you to follow along with the transcript

18 you've just received.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to avoid any defective transcripts, the

20 English audio should be translated into French.

21 Please proceed.

22 [Intercept played]

23 Unidentified female: Hello.

24 Unidentified male: Hello.

25 Unidentified female: How can I help you? Yes.

Page 7827

1 Good evening.

2 Unidentified male: Good evening. 657848.

3 It's the government, Belgrade.

4 Unidentified female: Excuse me?

5 Unidentified male: It's the government, Belgrade.

6 Unidentified female: Excuse me?

7 Unidentified male: Government, Belgrade.

8 Unidentified female: What can I do for you?

9 Unidentified male: 657848.

10 Unidentified female: Hold on a moment, please.

11 Unidentified male: Hello.

12 Unidentified female: Hello.

13 Unidentified male: Hello.

14 Unidentified female: Yes.

15 Good evening.

16 Unidentified male: Good evening. 657848.

17 ... Government. Belgrade, here. Is Mico there?

18 Unidentified female: No, Mico's not in. No, he's not. He's on a

19 business trip. Let me tell you --

20 Just hold on, please. Hello.

21 Unidentified male: Yes.

22 Unidentified female: Lale?

23 Hold on, please. You probably need to speak with the other Mico,

24 right? Hold on, please.

25 Cedo: Hello.

Page 7828

1 Lale: Hello. This is Lale here.

2 Cedo: This is Cedo. What can I do for you?

3 Lale: Yes.

4 Cedo: Well, momentarily he's up there on the hill, you know.

5 783. Hold on. If you need the phone number, I'll give it to you. Just

6 hold on a second.

7 Hello. Lale? Do you want to speak to Davidovic? Mico Davidovic?

8 Our Mico. All right. Hold on, please.

9 Lale: Hello?

10 Cedo: Look, it's 800 020.

11 That's it.

12 Lale: I'll put on a man who wants to talk to you a little.

13 Cedo: All right.

14 Radovan Karadzic: Hello.

15 Cedo: Good evening.

16 Radovan Karadzic: How are you?

17 Cedo: Fine. Who is it?

18 Radovan Karadzic: It's Radovan. Have there been any attacks

19 tonight?

20 Cedo: Yes, there have been some in Rajlovac. The attack has been

21 repelled. Now there's a buildup of troops here near the shopping centre.

22 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.

23 Cedo: The Green Berets are assembling there, and there's a huge

24 buildup. We're expecting an attack on Vrace.

25 Radovan Karadzic: Vrace?

Page 7829

1 Cedo: Yes.

2 Radovan Karadzic: Uh-huh.

3 Cedo: Nothing else?

4 Radovan Karadzic: No artillery?

5 Cedo: No, no artillery on either side.

6 Radovan Karadzic: All right.

7 Cedo: Are you fine?

8 Radovan Karadzic: Yes. Try not to use artillery. Has Mladic

9 called?

10 Cedo: Yes, yes, we've arranged that.

11 Radovan Karadzic: Tell them to go to hell --

12 Cedo: Exactly.

13 Radovan Karadzic: If they want to die...

14 Cedo: All right.

15 Radovan Karadzic: Could you remind Mico to urgently send the

16 papers for that man up there, to Devedlaka.

17 Cedo: Yes, yes. I understand, I understand. To appoint Dragan.

18 Radovan Karadzic: It is urgent, and it has to be done. There are

19 many things that don't function here.

20 Cedo: Well, yes, but we also have other information.

21 Radovan Karadzic: I don't know what's going on.

22 Cedo: I have completely different information. That's why I

23 don't understand... I'm afraid this isn't about one dimension because the

24 official authorities are --

25 Yes, but there is other information, too. We'll tell you.

Page 7830

1 Anyway, there are no problems. If there is any, I'll tell the minister.

2 Radovan Karadzic: Let's put him on now.

3 Cedo: It's not about an unimportant person after all.

4 Radovan Karadzic: Yes, yes.

5 Cedo: If it had been about a small mayor who we wanted replaced,

6 but it's not. So we have some basis.

7 Radovan Karadzic: If you agree, you should then invite this guy

8 up to Pale.

9 Cedo: Yes, and then you can have some talk in peace.

10 Radovan Karadzic: Zugic's like an indicator here. I think

11 Zugic's right.

12 Cedo: Yeah, possible. It's possible he's right, but if you

13 agree -- I don't want to make a hasty decision here. And as a

14 consequence, the commission would visit, right?

15 Radovan Karadzic: We'll have the people up there who are to take

16 care of it.

17 Cedo: Exactly. I think that would be the best thing to do. We

18 just talked and exchanged opinions. We also have other information

19 regarding that.

20 Radovan Karadzic: Yes, yes.

21 Cedo: You know how it is. The question has always been there,

22 "What if we don't succeed?"

23 Radovan Karadzic: I restrained myself from exaggerating because

24 it's easy to make a mistake.

25 Cedo: That's what I'm afraid of. I'll tell the minister about

Page 7831

1 your suggestion. I'll call you back sometime.

2 Radovan Karadzic: Take care of that quickly.

3 Cedo: Yes, sure.

4 Radovan Karadzic: Is everything under control?

5 Cedo: Well, half of Dobrinje is under our control, and the other

6 half is under their control.

7 Radovan Karadzic: They're not attacking the airport today?

8 Cedo: Well, they haven't.

9 Radovan Karadzic: Did they shell Lukavica yesterday?

10 Cedo: Hell, yes. Oh, yeah.

11 Radovan Karadzic: They set on fire some cars there, right?

12 Cedo: Well, yeah. They set on fire whatever cars there were

13 there.

14 Yes, they shelled. They, too, have artillery. They point one

15 part of it at us, and with the other they provoke themselves.

16 Radovan Karadzic: Yeah.

17 Cedo: So...

18 Radovan Karadzic: Yes, all right. Here all Serb artillery shall

19 be silent, and everything that is heard will be theirs.

20 Cedo: Exactly, sure.

21 Radovan Karadzic: Cedo, tell everyone there I said hello.

22 Cedo: Cheers, have a good one.


24 Q. Mr. Jahic, you've clearly heard now the conversation which has

25 just been played to you. I'd like to direct your attention, then, to the

Page 7832

1 portion that appears at the bottom of page 3 of your transcript, and for

2 the Trial Chamber, the same excerpt appears at the top of page 3 of the

3 English language transcript. And I quote:

4 "Radovan Karadzic: I'm all right. Have there been any attacks

5 tonight?

6 Cedo: Yes, there have been some in Rajlovac.

7 Radovan Karadzic: In Rajlovac?

8 Cedo: They went for that barracks there from Ahatovici, and that

9 attack has been repelled. Now there's a buildup of troops here near the

10 shopping centre."

11 Mr. Jahic, I know the date of this conversation is 30 May 1992. I

12 understand from your testimony yesterday that you were in Ahatovici on 30

13 May 1992. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To your knowledge, on that date, were there any attacks from

16 Ahatovici to any barracks, Rajlovac or any other JNA facilities in the

17 area?

18 A. Absolutely not. There were no attacks. And for the reason -- the

19 reason why is that there were a hundred of us, to 120. We were poorly

20 armed. It would have been complete nonsense to do that with that number

21 of men and that equipment, to attack a military facility such as the

22 barracks at Butile and Rajlovac.

23 Q. Thank you. If we could move on to the next conversation.

24 MS. EDGERTON: And I note that appears on Your Honours' list as a

25 conversation dated 5 June 1992 which is incorrect. The date of the

Page 7833

1 conversation is 8 June 1992.

2 [Intercept played]

3 Milena: Hello Rajlovac?

4 Mijatovic: Yes.

5 Milena: Just a moment. President Krajisnik would like to talk to

6 somebody.

7 Mijatovic: Thank you.

8 Rajka, is that you?

9 Milena: Who's that?

10 Mijatovic: Mijatovic is here. Rajka, is that you?

11 Milena: Milena here.

12 Well, Milena, Mijatovic is here.

13 Milena: Just a moment please.

14 Mijatovic: Thank you.

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: Hello.

16 Mijatovic: Hello.

17 Momcilo Krajisnik: Hello, Mato, Kum.

18 Mijatovic: Hello, how are you?

19 Momcilo Krajisnik: What are you doing?

20 Well, even if you know them or don't know them, they're all

21 brothers. We're as men from Herzegovina, all the best men in power.

22 What's new?

23 Mijatovic: That Momcilo Moro was killed yesterday.

24 Well, yesterday in front of the shells at the depot.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: Is Ljubisa Vladisic there?

Page 7834

1 Mirko told me there were problems with those prisoners and the

2 other stuff.

3 Mijatovic: Yes.

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: If you find a solution, it's okay. If you

5 don't find a solution, you can include us, then I will come for

6 consultation. We shall not do anything wrong, you know.

7 Mijatovic: Well, okay.

8 Momcilo Krajisnik: You know that one, khoja, it is an occasion

9 now. Khoja, she's young.

10 Mijatovic: I know, I know.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik: We should not do anything that is, well,

12 something that is not characteristic for the Serbian people. Dishonesty

13 never leads to anything good, you know.

14 Mijatovic: I agree.

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: But we should do -- not do anything, anything

16 that does not follow the rules. Isn't that so?

17 Mijatovic: I know.

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: Because they have released some men. They

19 went from here. They're back again.

20 Mijatovic: Well, I think, with these women, they're accommodated,

21 I think, as many as it was possible, women, children, and old men, to be

22 under those conditions. And the military part is for the military police,

23 and that part will be processed and so on. They're investigating

24 interviewing, complete it. Now, what they're going to do, I don't know.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: But let me tell you, I'm just suggesting that

Page 7835

1 you do that. It should be something that is characteristic, typical of

2 the Serbian people.

3 Mijatovic: That's true.

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: Of course, normally.

5 Okay, send my regards to everyone.

6 Mijatovic: And tomorrow they said at 10.00, the meeting with you.

7 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.

8 Mijatovic: Up there.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: And we'll agree.

10 Mijatovic: All right. Ljubisa.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay.

12 Well, thank God that you're --

13 Ljubisa Vladusic: Yes, that's always been your thesis, in the

14 first sentence, whenever we met.

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, I'm just joking. You know that I have

16 to attack just a bit, and then others will attack me.

17 Yes, how's your mother and others back home?

18 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, to be honest, not very well.

19 Momcilo Krajisnik: What's wrong with her?

20 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, you know, she has angina pectoris and so

21 on, so if anything happens, her blood pressure rises, her health worsens,

22 but what can I do?

23 Yes, and how are you?

24 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, I'm okay, not bad.

25 Ljubisa Vladusic: How are you coping?

Page 7836

1 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, what can I do? Thank God, you know how

2 it is to handle people's work with lots of problems.

3 Ljubisa Vladusic: What can we do?

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: What can we do? Well, to win if it's God's

5 will.

6 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, let's hope so.

7 Momcilo Krajisnik: Do you have your doubts?

8 Ljubisa Vladusic: No, I don't have doubts. If I had all the

9 information, I'd probably think the same as you. But as I've just a

10 slight idea about some things, then I have to ask you. I hope you don't

11 mind my asking.

12 Momcilo Krajisnik: No, no. Don't worry.

13 Ljubisa Vladusic: Yes.

14 Momcilo Krajisnik: Trust me.

15 Ljubisa Vladusic: I trust you. Well, if I don't trust you --

16 Momcilo Krajisnik: No, I'm telling them now.

17 Ljubisa Vladusic: Yes.

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: No, nothing should be done towards people. It

19 is not characteristic of real men, and not characteristic for the Serbian

20 people.

21 Ljubisa Vladusic: That's true.

22 Momcilo Krajisnik: There's no one that should -- innocent people

23 such as the Muslims are, and someone put arms in their hands -- if they

24 didn't do anything, if they didn't just surrender. Well, that Gacanovic,

25 of course, you know what --

Page 7837

1 Ljubisa Vladusic: Wait a minute. Do you have any influence on

2 that?

3 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes, I do, and I have told that to the

4 soldiers. No one could do anything. They're now implementing, you

5 understand. No one can do anything that's wrong.

6 Ljubisa Vladusic: I was just talking with Mirko about that, and

7 I'm glad that he's the same opinion as you are. He thinks exactly the

8 same. I'm glad because of that. And I think that many things are

9 involved.

10 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay.

11 Ljubisa Vladusic: It would be a shame, you know.

12 Momcilo Krajisnik: No, there's no doubt there. One cannot engage

13 in genocide to achieve anything. I know that it is difficult when

14 someone's killed.

15 Ljubisa Vladusic: Quiet, quiet. I had a conflict because of it.

16 Okay, it's turned out all right, but I was just joking with your best man.

17 Momcilo Krajisnik: Which one?

18 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, Joja. We're sitting up there, and he

19 came and attacked me and said why -- I expressed my condolences publicly

20 in the newspaper.

21 Momcilo Krajisnik: About whom?

22 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, the guy -- the young guy that was killed

23 in front of the barracks. You remember that, Secerovic, the one from the

24 SDP party, that one.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: You shouldn't have done it, you know.

Page 7838

1 Ljubisa Vladusic: No, no, Momo. We were very good friends for

2 many years.

3 Momcilo Krajisnik: Now look --

4 Ljubisa Vladusic: Yes.

5 Momcilo Krajisnik: This is not the time for that. The problem

6 was because it was in public. A few days ago, they skinned a man here in

7 Hrasnica. But the policy should be waged according to the people.

8 Politics should be managed as is characteristic of those people, not of

9 these monsters.

10 Ljubisa Vladusic: All right.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik: How are you?

12 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, I've -- I called you several times, and

13 Rajka, too, and so I conveyed something to Mirko. But you know about the

14 information flow. It's enough that you're late just one hour, and it's

15 not current any longer.

16 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.

17 Ljubisa Vladusic: On the other hand, as you know, I was in town

18 for long time, and I was able to communicate with those men. You know the

19 two that I'm talking about.

20 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes. And what happened? Well, simply what

21 the hell happened to them?

22 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, I don't know. They tried to meet you. I

23 don't know if Mirko passed all this on to you because I tried to reach you

24 several times.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: And we talked, and he said --

Page 7839

1 Ljubisa Vladusic: No, no. Your Mirko. Did he pass everything on

2 to you?

3 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes, he did. I tried to reach them. We

4 called from here.

5 Ljubisa Vladusic: It's like this. I talked to him this morning

6 and they'll call you.

7 Momcilo Krajisnik: Who?

8 Ljubisa Vladusic: The two of them.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: But listen. Why did they need to do that? I

10 know what they're thinking of.

11 Ljubisa Vladusic: Momo, I can't explain this to you over the

12 phone. Politics or diplomacy can play a role. Politics is a bitch.

13 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes, well, that's what I'm saying.

14 Ljubisa Vladusic: I'd like to suggest something. Of course, if I

15 can make a suggestion to you, I would suggest that it would be a good idea

16 because they're asking for your initiative to sit down and meet with them

17 any way you decide.

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: You know it's very dangerous for me to sit

19 down and negotiate with them because they'll declared -- well, I don't

20 know. I'd like to help them. I have a good opinion of them. I mean, a

21 good opinion. As far as diplomacy and all of that stuff is concerned, I

22 don't think they're traitors, but they have messed it up so badly for

23 themselves I don't know how to sort things out.

24 Ljubisa Vladusic: Why wouldn't -- shouldn't they be mediators as

25 regards solving these problems?

Page 7840

1 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, I can't tell you that over the phone.

2 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, neither can I. I've talked to them on

3 many issues, and I can't tell you all that over the phone now. That's why

4 I thought that if you could set aside five minutes for me to explain

5 things to you.

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay, well, we'll sit down together.

7 Ljubisa Vladusic: Momo, we can have an agreement. Well, I don't

8 know if there's enough room for me to come with him.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Who with?

10 Ljubisa Vladusic: With Momo. Well, let me say there are a couple

11 of things that I'd like to tell you. And of course --

12 Momcilo Krajisnik: You talk to them first, and then you can tell

13 them what I think.

14 Ljubisa Vladusic: Well, I talked to them yesterday, talk to them

15 every day.

16 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right, fine. But come tomorrow.

17 Ljubisa Vladusic: All right, fine.

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: Good-bye.


20 Q. Mr. Jahic, you've clearly heard and understood everything in this

21 last conversation you've just listened to?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'd like to direct your attention then to page 2 of the transcript

24 you're reviewing, and the relevant portion also appears near the top of

25 page 2 of the English language version of the transcript. And I quote:

Page 7841

1 "Krajisnik, Momcilo: Because they've released some men, they went

2 from here, they're back again, and yes, yes, so they're attacking, aren't

3 they?

4 Mijatovic: Yes, that's it.

5 Krajisnik, Momcilo: Well, you see it you're a smart man. So

6 that --

7 Mijatovic: You know what? Why is this part now to say so

8 separated, military and civilian.

9 Krajisnik, Momcilo: Yes.

10 Mijatovic: Well, here I think we these women they are

11 accommodated I think, as many as it was possible, women, children, and old

12 men, with certain conditions. And the military part, that is for the

13 military police, and that part there will be processed and so on. They're

14 investigating, completing it, and now what they are going to process,

15 believe me that, that, I don't know."

16 Mr. Jahic, referring to the phrase "because they've released some

17 men, they went from here, they're back again. Yes, yes, so they're

18 attacking, aren't they," do you know who these men are the participants in

19 this conversation are talking about?

20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, as I foreshadowed, this is a matter I

21 would be objecting to. There has been no foundation established for the

22 witness to be asked to proffer an opinion in relation to this particular

23 intercept.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first ask the parties whether this is a matter

25 we could discuss in the presence of the witness or whether we should

Page 7842

1 rather discuss it in the absence of the witness?

2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I would have thought it's a matter

3 that must be discussed in the absence of the witness.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Agreed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jahic, may I ask you to leave the courtroom for a

6 moment. We have a procedural matter to discuss before you answer that

7 question, if at all.

8 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Jahic out of the

9 courtroom.

10 Ms. Edgerton, you heard the objection by Ms. Loukas. Would you

11 like to respond?

12 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I think it's a matter of weight, in

13 fact. And I think it's at the Court's discretion having heard the

14 intercept in its entirety and having heard the evidence of the witness in

15 this case to decide what weight they're going to give what comment he has

16 to make about the intercept.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Finally, it's always the -- if

18 evidence is admitted, then of course it's always up to the Chamber to

19 assess the weight of that evidence. What leads you to believe that this

20 conversation is about something the witness could testify about?

21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, there are -- there's other factors

22 mentioned in this conversation, including the personalities and the

23 interlocutors of Mr. Krajisnik that lead the Prosecution to believe that

24 the conversation is about a situation the witness knows about. For

25 example, and linking this to the witness's testimony, there's mention in

Page 7843

1 the conversation later on of one Gacanovic family. The witness has

2 already spoken in his testimony yesterday about people with the surname

3 Gacanovic.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please, because it went very quickly, guide

5 us to the...

6 MS. EDGERTON: The English language transcript, that appears on

7 page 4, Your Honour.


9 MS. EDGERTON: He has also Your Honour, yesterday, spoken about

10 the men who he has been detained with in the cisterns and where they came

11 from. He has described a number of men from Bratunac who told him they

12 had come to end up in his village from Bratunac, after having been

13 detained in Pale, exchanged in Visoko. And then to Ahatovici. And it's

14 our position, Your Honour, that based on that evidence yesterday, the

15 witness is able to comment on the portion I've just asked him about, that

16 being: "They've released some men. They went from here. They're back

17 again."

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm just trying to find the -- yesterday's

19 testimony about Gacanovic. One second, please.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Page 21, Your Honour, of yesterday's transcript,

21 lines 9 and 10. He mentions one Avdo Gacanovic as one of the people who

22 were killed in their initial efforts to escape from the village.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, Ms. Edgerton draws our attention, I would

24 say, specifically to the name Gacanovic appearing, and the other one is

25 the names of the -- of those who are speaking. Ms. Edgerton, may I first

Page 7844

1 ask you: What's specific about those names apart from that one of the

2 names is, of course, that of the accused. But, as such, that would not

3 make the witness aware of the events, is it, that are discussed?

4 MS. EDGERTON: The Prosecution -- it's going to be the

5 Prosecution's argument that these other participants in the conversation

6 are in one case a political figure in Novi Grad Municipality; in another

7 case, someone who was otherwise close to Mr. Krajisnik and the Bosnian

8 Serb leadership. But that doesn't necessarily mean, Your Honour, that

9 these are people who the witness has any knowledge of or acquaintance

10 with.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- I think you're now talking about

12 Vladusic to be a political figure in --

13 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour. I was in that regard referring to

14 Mijatovic.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mijatovic.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Vladusic, an acquaintance of Mr. Krajisnik at the

17 very least.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm not talking about the last transcript, but

19 about this one. So you draw our attention, as you say there are some

20 features in this conversation, one of them being, let's say, not locals

21 who then are discussed. And that would be congruent with what the witness

22 testified yesterday. And the second point is the name of Gacanovic which

23 appeared in his testimony yesterday, and also appears here, and for that

24 reason we could accept that this witness might be able to link this

25 conversation to what he experienced? Is that a correct understanding?

Page 7845

1 MS. EDGERTON: It's our submission he is in a position to do that,

2 Your Honour. And in any case, were he not present, the Prosecution would

3 be making the same argument in due course about this intercept, taking

4 into account the other evidence about the witness -- about which the

5 witness might not be aware.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. The two basic points

8 appear to be that this name, Gacanovic, is mentioned. Well, that would be

9 fine if there was only one person called Gacanovic in the entirety of

10 Bosnia. That's the first point, Your Honour.

11 In relation to the indication of this person Mijatovic, well,

12 Your Honour, there has been no evidence thus far of any indication that

13 this person is in any way connected with the Municipality of Novi Grad.

14 Thirdly, Your Honour, in relation to this question of -- well, in

15 any event, the Prosecution would be making submissions, my submission in

16 relation to that, Your Honour, is, of course, that's entirely appropriate,

17 the whole -- generally, the question of analysis and the inferences that

18 are to be garnered from examining the intercepts is something for the

19 Trial Chamber. And unless a proper foundation has been laid by the

20 Prosecution, questioning of a witness without a proper foundation is

21 entirely inappropriate when the intercepts just as a document may speak

22 for themselves and the Trial Chamber can make a determination on the

23 evidence and the inferences that are available on the evidence.

24 But to introduce evidence of this nature on this, I would submit,

25 rather flimsy basis, Your Honour, is in my submission not appropriate.

Page 7846

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of the complains is that Mr. Mijatovic has

2 not been introduced as -- in the capacity you've described him. Is it

3 your point that that's already in evidence, or will you present any

4 evidence on that?

5 MS. EDGERTON: Not through this witness, Your Honour, but it is

6 the Prosecution's intention to do so.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the first matter. And the second one is

8 that: What could the witness add to this intercept apart from the text as

9 it is? But perhaps first I ask: Ms. Loukas, would there be any objection

10 by the Defence that this -- if this intercept would be admitted into

11 evidence without any further link to a witness, or perhaps just by a

12 witness who could that say he received this intercept from certain

13 persons, that it was intercepted at a certain date? I mean, would you

14 accept, would the Defence accept this intercept to be admitted into

15 evidence solely on the basis of where it comes from?

16 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, of course the question of

17 intercepts is a quite separate question in relation to -- there's still

18 issues ultimately that we'll be addressing in relation to intercepts. But

19 the intercepts per se, as it stands, no, Your Honour, there would be no

20 objection to that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Ms. Edgerton, what are you intending to

22 ask the witness that could add something to the intercept as such?

23 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to the first question, I'm intending

24 to ask the witness if he knows who these men who were released and came

25 back to fight might be, especially given he has referred to that in his

Page 7847

1 previous testimony. With respect to the second question, that's about the

2 name Gacanovic. And I stand to be corrected, but, well, it's not clear in

3 the English language version of this transcript. In the B/C/S version,

4 I'm given to understand that when reference is made to Gacanovic, it's

5 made in the plural, referring to the family rather than to an individual.

6 And it's my intention to ask the witness with reference to the name

7 Gacanovic whether or not he could identify, if he knows who they are

8 referring to or what they're referring to, and whether or not the family

9 name Gacanovic was a common name in the settlement of Ahatovici, whether

10 or not Gacanovic was a large or significant family.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, and not to

12 belabour the point, but I think whether the mention of Gacanovic is in the

13 single or in the plural, the point still stands. There is not just one

14 person called Gacanovic in Bosnia. One assumes, and there has been no

15 evidence to the contrary, nor just one family. So it's a tenuous causal

16 link.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it depends on how widespread the name

18 Gacanovic is in the whole of the territory and in that specific territory.

19 Let me just confer for one second.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, the basis for asking this witness

22 questions about what appears on -- one second.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: The questions you had in mind for the witness in

25 relation to what appears on page 1 and page 2 as highlighted, that is

Page 7848

1 where mention is made about some men that had been released and that they

2 went from there and that they are back again is not solid enough. That's

3 not a solid enough basis to ask the witness to find out whether these are

4 the same men as he mentioned yesterday. That would easily come to

5 speculation which will not assist the Chamber. On the other hand, the

6 portion on page 4 of the transcript where the Gacanovic name is mentioned,

7 the Chamber allows you to ask questions about whether he can identify

8 anything that would link this conversation to his testimony of yesterday,

9 and I take it that you have noticed that Ms. Loukas said that Gacanovic

10 was a quite common name, as far as I understand, in the whole of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that of course, if you would please explore that in

12 more detail, then the Chamber finally will be better able to assess the

13 relevance of this telephone intercept for any determinations it will have

14 to make. That's one.

15 And if you say that the English does not properly reflect the

16 plural which appears in the original, then you're invited to ask the

17 interpreters to listen to that portion or to read the B/C/S version and to

18 explain to the Chamber whether the reference is to a plural rather than to

19 a singular.

20 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Jahic.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while the witness is being brought in,

22 just on that question of Gacanovic, and again not to belabour the point,

23 but I think the issue there is if the Prosecution wish to rely on such a

24 name -- I don't think I'll continue in view of the fact that the witness

25 has just come into the courtroom.

Page 7849

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is it something --

2 MS. LOUKAS: In essence, Your Honour, the point is, and I can make

3 this point in front of the witness, it is for the Prosecution to prove

4 uniqueness as opposed to -- that's the point, Your Honour. And that's as

5 far as I can go --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.

7 MS. LOUKAS: -- in front of the witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, uniqueness is not always proved through

9 one singular witness, but is very often a combination of various elements,

10 and not all these elements all necessarily have to prove the uniqueness of

11 the situation. But altogether, taken altogether, it can give rise to

12 another assessment.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed. And thank you for your

15 patience, Mr. Jahic.


17 Q. Mr. Jahic, before we go further with this conversation --

18 MS. EDGERTON: At this moment, Your Honour, I'd like to ask the

19 interpreters, with respect to the mention of the name Gacanovic that

20 appears on -- in the B/C/S version of the transcript, page 5, that being

21 the page with the ERN number 03220658, are they referring to Gacanovic in

22 the singular or in the plural?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the reference to Gacanovici

24 means plural, denoting a family.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's what we could hear on the tape.

Page 7850

1 Because that's, of course -- let me just read it.

2 I see that in the B/C/S version, it says Gacanovici. Is it a

3 possibility, and I'm asking this first of all to the interpreters that

4 Gacanovici would refer to a place rather than to persons? Because I

5 noticed that many small villages where people of a certain name live, that

6 the village or the place is given the same name, but then -- for example,

7 I do understand that, for example, in a place called Ahmici, people with

8 the name Ahmic might live there. I'm asking the interpreters, looking at

9 the text on the page ERN last three digits 658, whether it is conceivable

10 that reference is made by the word Gacanovici to a place rather than to

11 persons.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' note: Your Honour, it is indeed,

13 in theory, possible according to the principle you've mentioned. It can

14 only be established from the list of Bosnian place names, which exists, is

15 available. Furthermore, this sentence itself is rather incoherent because

16 the words that follow are "of course you know what's going on there." It

17 is not clear whether it's a reference to a family or a place. Generally,

18 it's an incoherent sentence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what raised my question, as a matter of

20 fact, the word "there."

21 Ms. Edgerton, we have established, at least if it's a correct

22 transcript of the original B/C/S, that the word Gacanovici is used, which

23 could refer to a plural of persons or to a place, if a place with this

24 name exists. Please proceed.


Page 7851

1 Q. Mr. Jahic, in this conversation, page 5 of the version you have

2 before you with the page number 03220658, there's mention of the name

3 Gacanovici. Do you see that portion I'm referring to?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was there a family in Ahatovici area by the name Gacanovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How common was that family name in Ahatovici settlement?

8 A. Yes, it's one of the three large families inhabiting Ahatovici who

9 practically founded the village of Ahatovici. Gacanovici, Mujkici, and

10 the Novalijas. As for the place, there is no place called the Gacanovici.

11 It's not the name of a village or anything.

12 Q. Were there any individuals with the surname Gacanovic who were

13 detained in the cistern with you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many?

16 A. I cannot tell you the exact number. Many of them had died, in

17 fact, were killed on the bus. A certain number were exchanged on the 13th

18 of June in the former locality of Vogosca petrol station, but a large

19 number of the Gacanovicis were killed in the massacre in Sokolje near

20 Srednje.

21 Q. Is that the incident you referred to yesterday in your testimony?

22 A. Yes. I referred to the massacre of the detainees from Rajlovac

23 camp; more precisely, the small hangar of the Rajlovac camp.

24 Q. Can you provide us with the name of any one of -- or a member of

25 the Gacanovic family who was killed that you referred to yesterday?

Page 7852

1 A. There was Mujo Gacanovic, Mufid Gacanovic, Mustafa Gacanovic,

2 Cazim Gacanovic, Alija Gacanovic.

3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And with that, I think we can move on to

4 the next and last --

5 MS. LOUKAS: Before we move on, Your Honour, it might be clarified

6 as to whether we're dealing -- this evidence here is evidence that is

7 direct or indirect, if the witness is indicating this on the basis of

8 direct observation or not.

9 JUDGE ORIE: About the names of those victims --

10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. The -- yes, the names of the

11 victims and what have you.


13 Witness, perhaps -- Ms. Loukas is seeking one clarification. When

14 you just mentioned a few members of the Gacanovic family that died in the

15 incident you referred to yesterday, did you observe these specific members

16 of the family being there, or did you hear at any stage that they were

17 among those who were on that bus?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the persons I named, because I

19 myself survived this massacre. Among those present were the people who

20 were eventually killed, slaughtered, people whom I had known for a number

21 of years.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm asking you because there were 50, so you

23 might have observed some of them and heard about others at another moment.

24 But you say the ones you mentioned, you saw them.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. I assert with absolute

Page 7853

1 certainty that those persons were killed on the bus. On the footage on

2 that tape, you can see the images of some of those people.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I have one additional question for you.

4 That's the following: The name Gacanovic, you told us it was one of the

5 large families of your village. Do you know how common that name is

6 outside your village?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a large number of the

8 Gacanovicis living in a neighbouring place, Dobrosevici, with a total of

9 20 or so family houses occupied by people with that surname.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please correct me if I'm wrong, Dobrosevici is - but

11 please correct if I am wrong - quite close to Ahatovici? It's the next

12 village.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from Ahatovici and Dobrosevici, let's say

15 if you're at a distance of 20 kilometres or 50 kilometres, do you know

16 whether there were similar concentrations of the name Gacanovic?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know, but I believe that

18 this in this text the reference is particularly to those people from

19 Ahatovici or Dobrosevici.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you do not know about the -- how widespread

21 the name is in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 THE WITNESS: [No Interpretation]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

24 MS. EDGERTON: We can move on to the next and last intercept,

25 dated 15 June 1992.

Page 7854

1 [Intercept played]

2 Unidentified female: Hello.

3 Unidentified male: Yes?

4 Unidentified female: Good evening. Can I speak to Mirko.

5 Unidentified male: Mirko?

6 Unidentified female: ... President Krajisnik's office.

7 Unidentified male: Of course, just a minute.

8 Unidentified female: Hello.

9 Mirko Krajisnik: Yes.

10 Unidentified female: Good evening, Mirko.

11 Mirko Krajisnik: Good evening.

12 Unidentified female: How are you?

13 Mirko Krajisnik: I'm all right. And you?

14 Unidentified female: Are you hanging in there?

15 Mirko Krajisnik: Well, some shooting started.

16 Unidentified female: Really?

17 Mirko Krajisnik: Really.

18 Unidentified female: Oh, please don't say that.

19 Here, the president would like to talk to you.

20 Mirko Krajisnik: Put him on.

21 Momcilo Krajisnik: Hello.

22 Mirko Krajisnik: Hello, Milan.

23 Momcilo Krajisnik: What's going on?

24 Mirko Krajisnik: Well, a lot of things. And how about you?

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: My mate Momo is here, so I thought I'd ask you

Page 7855

1 if you needed him to do anything for you. Nothing?

2 Mirko Krajisnik: Nothing. I don't know what would be worth

3 doing.

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: What's going on?

5 Mirko Krajisnik: I don't know what to tell you. Some shooting

6 started right now.

7 Momcilo Krajisnik: Where?

8 Mirko Krajisnik: Cannons around the village.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Around the village?

10 Mirko Krajisnik: Yeah.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, what is it? Are you being shelled

12 or...

13 Mirko Krajisnik: We're just trying to find out. It's dark, you

14 know.

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: Mm-hmm.

16 Mirko Krajisnik: Did they inform you about that thing with

17 Karkin?

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.

19 Mirko Krajisnik: And?

20 Momcilo Krajisnik: We called the Presidency, but he had gone. I

21 don't even know where.

22 Mirko Krajisnik: 663-488.

23 Momcilo Krajisnik: He called. Milena called him.

24 Mirko Krajisnik: Stojko?

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: Mm-hmm.

Page 7856

1 Mirko Krajisnik: All right.

2 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yeah, let me see.

3 Mirko Krajisnik: Does he know how to leave a message or...?

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: What did he tell you wanted?

5 Mirko Krajisnik: He asked, did this guy bring you the message?

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: What?

7 Mirko Krajisnik: Has Milan been to see you?

8 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, yeah, but forget that, man, I know he

9 only called me because I had called. This is just about deception, you

10 understand?

11 Mirko Krajisnik: Yeah.

12 Momcilo Krajisnik: He called me from Izetbegovic's office to

13 check, but in front.

14 Mirko Krajisnik: Where did he inform... ? He asked that you

15 shouldn't shoot at the Yugoslav Airlines skyscraper up there. His mother

16 has been wounded and things like that.

17 Momcilo Krajisnik: Not to shoot at the Yugoslav Airlines

18 skyscraper?

19 Mirko Krajisnik: Yeah.

20 Momcilo Krajisnik: Damn.

21 Mirko Krajisnik: Listen.

22 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes?

23 Mirko Krajisnik: Vito called me.

24 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yeah?

25 Mirko Krajisnik: He's been up there today.

Page 7857

1 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yeah?

2 Mirko Krajisnik: So he wanted me to tell you the details and

3 things like that.

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: Has Simovic accepted this?

5 Mirko Krajisnik: Yes, but he says it's a failure.

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: Why?

7 Mirko Krajisnik: He says this government is no good. He also

8 told me there was a terrible fight at the Presidency session today.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Why?

10 Mirko Krajisnik: He said it really got ugly. Alija wants either

11 Pusina or the public transportation company Gras director in the position

12 of minister of internal affairs, you know.

13 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yeah?

14 Mirko Krajisnik: And the guy from Kladusa wants this Delimustafic

15 in that position, you know.

16 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.

17 Mirko Krajisnik: So they offered Delimustafic a position in

18 reserves of supplies or something like that. Then he said, 'Wait, Alija,

19 I'm not here to work for you. I'm a rich man. I'm not interested in

20 money. I've supplied more goods in this war than any of you. So don't

21 behave like that. You're obviously installing this Sandzak line, this guy

22 from Sandzak in the Gras.' Then he said, 'It's easy for you to sit here

23 in easy chairs eating lamb while people are there.' He told him all kinds

24 of things, you know.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: Did Simovic really accept this, though?

Page 7858

1 Mirko Krajisnik: Yes.

2 Momcilo Krajisnik: He accepted?

3 Mirko Krajisnik: Yeah, but when this guy told him it was a shame

4 of him to have done so, that it was a puppet government dominated by

5 Muslims in which Serbs played only a minor part, he allegedly said the

6 government would fail because it wasn't set up properly.

7 Momcilo Krajisnik: And Nikolic, too, right?

8 Mirko Krajisnik: Did you see that? Ranko Nikolic?

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, I can believe he had the guts to do

10 this.

11 Mirko Krajisnik: Well, they've done it. Their names had been

12 published.

13 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, no, but I mean did they accept this or

14 what?

15 Mirko Krajisnik: Well, fuck, I don't know. On the whole, their

16 names have been were published. They wouldn't have published their names

17 if they hadn't accepted.

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: Nah, that's just their proposal.

19 Mirko Krajisnik: Then this guy said today that things aren't

20 really functioning in the Presidency. Kecmanovic said all kinds of

21 things, you know.

22 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yeah.

23 Mirko Krajisnik: That people think the Serbs would get the

24 Presidency because Alija can't get a third mandate.

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yeah.

Page 7859

1 Mirko Krajisnik: So he says you're thinking of becoming the

2 Presidency Chairman, getting yourself a good deal, then some position as

3 an ambassador. Reportedly the reformists have asked for Kecmanovic's

4 removal.

5 Momcilo Krajisnik: Why?

6 Mirko Krajisnik: Well, he's not following the party guidelines,

7 which put him in the Presidency. So they made the decision on

8 Jure Pelivan without consensus and all kinds of things like that.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: What about Jure Pelivan?

10 Mirko Krajisnik: The decision to appoint him prime minister.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik: Mm-hmm.

12 Mirko Krajisnik: No consensus was reached, you know. He said he

13 had attached Pejanovic. He gave me a phone number in case you want to see

14 him.

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: Him?

16 Mirko Krajisnik: Yeah?

17 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right, give it to me.

18 Mirko Krajisnik: He's got all kinds of things to tell. 619 494.

19 Momcilo Krajisnik: What was that again?

20 Mirko Krajisnik: 619 494.

21 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right.

22 Mirko Krajisnik: He says hello. It wouldn't be a mistake to call

23 him, you know.

24 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay, but what is he doing there?

25 Mirko Krajisnik: He spent the whole day there after they had

Page 7860

1 invited him. He was like, 'You will not drag me into this dirty business.

2 You ignore Serbs everywhere.' He said all kinds of things. You'll hear

3 it. Give him a call.

4 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right.

5 Mirko Krajisnik: What's going on up there?

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: We've been really busy all day.

7 Mirko Krajisnik: Screw it. This morning I heard that the Muslims

8 who were running away from Misoca killed a bus full of Serbs in Srednje.

9 Misoca was being cleansed.

10 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes?

11 Mirko Krajisnik: Some Muslims killed a full bus of Serbs.

12 Momcilo Krajisnik: How?

13 Mirko Krajisnik: They were on their way to Pale as refugees. Just

14 a little while ago they told me this wasn't the case, but that in fact,

15 they took these prisoners with them. Actually, an older sergeant who does

16 exchanges up there received a phone call from the city. Can you hear me?

17 Momcilo Krajisnik: Say again?

18 Mirko Krajisnik: This guy from the city called him, you know.

19 But what's his name, Alispahic, and he said those prisoners had been

20 killed.

21 Momcilo Krajisnik: What prisoners?

22 Mirko Krajisnik: They took the prisoners to Pale again.

23 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes?

24 Mirko Krajisnik: At Srednje, they were intercepted by Muslims who

25 killed all these prisoners. Our two men have been heavily wounded.

Page 7861

1 Momcilo Krajisnik: They thought these were our people?

2 Mirko Krajisnik: They thought those were our people.

3 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.

4 Mirko Krajisnik: Tonight they want to retaliate against all Serbs

5 in the city and in prison.

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes?

7 Mirko Krajisnik: To kill them all.

8 Momcilo Krajisnik: Unbelievable.

9 Mirko Krajisnik: Supposedly, they will use their cutthroats to

10 attack Rajlovac in groups and all kinds of things like that.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik: Unbelievable.

12 Mirko Krajisnik: In retaliation.

13 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right. I'll talk to you later. Tell our

14 people there I said hello.

15 Mirko Krajisnik: All right.

16 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay. Just tell me one thing, who sent that

17 girl there? I just don't get that.

18 Mirko Krajisnik: All right, she is going tomorrow at 1100 hours.

19 Momcilo Krajisnik: Going where?

20 Mirko Krajisnik: To Belgrade.

21 Momcilo Krajisnik: Oh really?

22 Mirko Krajisnik: Mm-hmm.

23 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right then.

24 Mirko Krajisnik: Yes, well, um. These people didn't come, right?

25 Momcilo Krajisnik: Who?

Page 7862

1 Mirko Krajisnik: The two you talked about.

2 Momcilo Krajisnik: Which ones? Oh, no, they will come. Today.

3 We'll do something about that tomorrow.

4 Mirko Krajisnik: We should do something about this thing here.

5 Fuck, insinuations and these things are possible, too.

6 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right. I'll talk to you later.

7 Mirko Krajisnik: Just give it some thought. Check with kum Momo

8 about that thing he was supposed to do for Zarko, please.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes, I've told him and I've given him

10 instructions on this.

11 Mirko Krajisnik: Right.

12 Momcilo Krajisnik: Deal.

13 Mirko Krajisnik: Deal. Call me before you go to bed. I'll be

14 here.

15 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yeah, we'll hang out here a little longer, and

16 I'll call you before I go to bed.

17 Mirko Krajisnik: All right. Bye.

18 Momcilo Krajisnik: Bye.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, that intercept having been concluded,

20 I note the time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If it's just about the intercept, I don't know how

22 many questions you would have.

23 MS. EDGERTON: I would think no more than five, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could try to finish the intercepts, and

25 then have a break.

Page 7863


2 Q. Mr. Jahic, in your testimony yesterday and this morning, you've

3 told us that you were in a bus load of Muslims which was attacked at a

4 location called Srednje. Is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Based on that, are you able to -- could you tell us who they're

7 referring to in this conversation when they say "at Srednje, they were

8 intercepted by Muslims who killed all those prisoners. Our two men have

9 been heavily wounded"?

10 A. It's obviously a reference to the massacre that happened in

11 Sokolje near Srednje, in the vicinity of Ilijas. It's a reference to us,

12 except that some nebulous things are stated here, like "Muslims were the

13 ones who killed us" although the killers were Chetniks. This is

14 ludicrous, I have to say.

15 Q. Just moving somewhat earlier in the conversation to page 5 of the

16 English language transcript, at the bottom, and I'll try and find the page

17 in your transcript. The page with the number at the top right-hand corner

18 03220737, there's reference to an individual by the name of Alispahic. Do

19 you see that?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Was there a family by the surname of Alispahic from the Ahatovici

22 area?

23 A. There was a family with the surname Alispahic living in Ahatovici

24 where they had a family house. His name was Bakid Alispahic. And at the

25 time, he was in the centre of the security services of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

Page 7864

1 the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in actual fact.

2 Q. And finally, Mr. Jahic, do you have any comment on this version of

3 the incident that it was Muslims who mistakenly killed their own people on

4 a bus?

5 A. Well, that would be -- let's call it the methodology of how

6 information was put out throughout the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There

7 were stories going about to the effect that the Muslims were killing

8 themselves, such as the Markale marketplace massacre and the one in front

9 of the assembly. They said that the Muslims had thrown a grenade. So

10 this is absolutely untrue because the people who followed us from

11 Rajlovac, the Chetniks and our executioners, committed a horrendous crime

12 in killing the 48 unarmed people at the Sokolje/Srednje place. And I

13 personally saw the escorts following us from Rajlovac. And when the man

14 returned and shot again at the dismembered bodies of the people there, he

15 was the same man who had escorted us from Rajlovac.

16 Q. And do you think this man and the other members of the escort and

17 your guards were Serbs or Muslims?

18 A. Well, I can't say they were Serbs. They were Chetniks because

19 there are decent Serbs, Orthodox Serbs in Sarajevo, but the people that

20 did these things to us were brutal people. So I call them Chetniks. They

21 were bestial, and they were the people who followed us from Rajlovac,

22 escorted us from Rajlovac. And that's absolutely certain.

23 Q. Are there any factors that you could identify for the Court that

24 would make you think they were something other than Muslims?

25 A. Well, as I've already said, there were four cars, and I mentioned

Page 7865

1 them in my statement, the four cars that escorted us and followed us to

2 that locality in Sokolje. And nobody could have known about us anyway

3 because from the Vogosca/Sokolje junction we had to lie down. So if

4 anybody was passing by, they would see -- they wouldn't see us. And then

5 in the area where the massacre took place at that particular time, there

6 was no fighting between the Muslims and Serbs going on during that

7 particular period.

8 MS. EDGERTON: That concludes my questions about the intercepts,

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

11 I would have one additional question to you. And that is the

12 following, Mr. Jahic: One of the interlocutors says "Misoca was being

13 cleansed." Could you tell us, Misoca, is that a village or a place?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a place which comes within the

15 frameworks of the Ilijas Municipality, I think, or not far from Ilijas

16 anyway.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know under whose control that village

18 was during the war and whether there were any changes in control over that

19 village?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say with any certainty at

21 that point in time under whose control it was, the village of Misoca was,

22 and whether that changed later on. I don't really know. I'm not informed

23 about that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And during the -- well, let's say, during most of the

25 time of the conflict, do you know in what area controlled by what party

Page 7866

1 that village was located?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Misoca or the village where the

3 massacre took place?

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, Misoca.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Misoca. I really don't know. I

6 can't say. So I don't want to say something I don't know about. Or

7 whether that was it, because it was the beginning of the war, I don't know

8 whether there was any fighting during that time there. I can't be

9 certain, so I can't say because I don't know.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, you can't tell us.

11 We will adjourn until 11.00.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Just before Your Honour does that, of course

13 Your Honour's aware that -- the witness can be excused, and I'll just

14 make --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, could you already escort Mr. Jahic

16 out of the courtroom.

17 Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honours. As Your Honours are

19 aware, Ms. Cmeric is not here. I've made certain arrangements to ensure

20 that I can communicate with Mr. Krajisnik during the break. Of course,

21 that means, Your Honour, we had an attempted communication prior to

22 Your Honours coming on to the Bench. So there's a matter that we need to

23 discuss. But the only issue is that I think if we come back at 11.00,

24 that's not going to give us enough time.

25 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need?

Page 7867

1 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I would have thought, say if we're

2 20 to 11 now, 10 past 11.00?

3 JUDGE ORIE: 10 past 11.00. We'll adjourn until 10 past 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to the position during

7 the break, the Registry have, of course, been very helpful in terms of

8 attempting to assist the Defence with interpreters while Ms. Cmeric is

9 away, which we're very grateful for, of course. There was a little delay

10 because the particular translator they had on standby was in fact in

11 another building. But we managed to conduct the conference. But there

12 are always going to be, I think, administrative glitches.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm glad that this problem has been resolved,

14 and even the logistics of translators.

15 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Jahic into the courtroom.

16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I may, I know you've asked a question

17 about Misoca, and that was a village in which an exhibit was entered

18 through Mr. Kljuc regarding the -- that was the Exhibit 299, which had

19 some information on the ethnicity of that village.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I hope you'll forgive me that it did not immediately

21 come into my mind.

22 MR. HANNIS: Absolutely, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.


25 Q. Mr. Jahic, in an earlier meeting some time ago with an ICTY

Page 7868

1 representative, did you provide that person with a copy of a videotape

2 which relates to the events we have spoken about yesterday and today?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how did the tape come to be in your possession?

5 A. I came by the tape through a man who made the videocassette. He

6 gave it to me personally. So the person who filmed it, that's where I got

7 that whole videocassette from.

8 Q. And he told you that he had filmed it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When did you receive it?

11 A. I don't know exactly. I would say I've had it for quite some

12 years.

13 Q. You viewed this video in its entirety on previous occasions, have

14 you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Right now, Mr. Jahic, I'm not going to play the whole video today,

17 but in the interests of time I'm going to play you some clips, some

18 shorter and some longer ones, from this video, and ask you to comment on

19 what you see. There's -- we'll begin with two very short clips, each of

20 several seconds. And they'll appear on the monitor in front of you.

21 MS. EDGERTON: And I should ask Madam Registrar for an exhibit

22 number for the transcripts. And of course the video itself.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The video is P370, and the transcripts P370A and

24 P370A.1.

25 [Videoclip played]

Page 7869

1 MS. EDGERTON: That being the first clip.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving anything on my

3 screen.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps -- Madam Usher, perhaps it should be

5 replayed. And is the monitor of the witness on video or is it...

6 Could the first clip be replayed.

7 [Videoclip played]

8 JUDGE ORIE: It is on "computer evidence." Could it be replayed

9 again.

10 [Videoclip played]

11 MS. EDGERTON: And the second clip.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it now. Thank you.

13 [Videoclip played]


15 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, did you recognise -- were you able to recognise

16 what was depicted on the videoscreen in front of you?

17 A. Yes. It's the bus in which the massacred bodies of the people

18 from Ahatovici were still located. And the bus is on the road leading to

19 Pale. And there's a stream, a brook there, that I described in my

20 statement. And you can see the traces of blood oozing, dripping down the

21 body of the bus.

22 Q. To your recollection, then, Mr. Jahic, does that -- do the

23 videoclips that you've seen in the last few seconds of the bus look like

24 the bus as it appeared to you after the incident you've described in your

25 testimony?

Page 7870

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, if we could -- we'll move on to the next segment, which is

3 just under approximately five minutes long. And because this next segment

4 is rather gruesome, I'm going to play through it without pause, and then

5 I'm going to ask you a couple of brief questions at the end.

6 [Videoclip played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] This one's just arrived as well. A

8 bit more in reverse. Just to leave.

9 It cannot be extended. Dig out down there. We will cover it.

10 What is it? Put one on top of the other. Look, it's no good.

11 MS. EDGERTON: That being the third clip.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, do you recognise any of the persons depicted in

13 this third videoclip?

14 A. As you can see here, it's a horrendous massacre showing

15 dismembered bodies, bodies without heads, parts of bodies missing. But

16 despite all that, I have managed to recognise at least 60 per cent of the

17 people shown on this footage.

18 Q. Can you give us the names of some of the individuals that you

19 recognise.

20 A. I knew my school friend. He went to eight years of primary school

21 with me. His name is Zijad Mujkic. I also recognised another individual

22 whom I spoke to, Mujkic Armin. And another one, Gacanovic, Mufid. I have

23 stated his name already in my statement. Then next I recognised Ado

24 Suljic, a person on the footage. Mirsad Mujkic was another one. Mehemed

25 Mujkic, nicknamed Memo. And a person called Mesanovic. Nihad Mesanovic

Page 7871

1 who was shoulder-to-shoulder with me. He was very close to me, and you

2 can see him on the footage. The left-hand side of his head has been -- is

3 missing. Blown off. And then some of the other people as well shown on

4 the footage.

5 Q. Perhaps now we can move on to the last clip, which is about 7

6 minutes long. And I will pause at one or two occasions in the clip to ask

7 you some very brief questions.

8 [Videoclip played]

9 MS. EDGERTON: There's no sound coming from this clip, and it

10 should have some.

11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] A sacred day such as St. Antony's

12 day. In any case, let's continue with the news. The exchange of

13 prisoners was carried in Rajlovac today. You've already heard that 37

14 people did not want to join the aggressor and that they remained in

15 Sarajevo. But when you say aggressor -- however, one who is able to kill

16 entire towns by shells or snipers is also able to treat the children,

17 their mothers, and elderly people as prisoners. Take a look at the

18 reportage of Mladen Vasiljevic.

19 Significant exchange of prisoners took place in Rajlovac today.

20 We're in this hall, where the only feelings are sorrow and misery. How

21 many prisoners were handed over to the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina? 391 prisoners were handed over to the Territorial Defence of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina. They're mainly women, children, the sick, and the

24 frail. We don't know. They were held in Rajlovac for 12 or so days,

25 premises there and other premises, too. We don't know which ones. And

Page 7872

1 the population from the Muslim villages of Ahatovici and Dobrosevici, yes,

2 that's it Ahatovici and Dobrosevici were Muslim villages. We still don't

3 know anything about the soldiers, who they are, middle-aged guys. We

4 still don't know where they are and what happened to them as the women

5 told us. And who did the Territorial Defence hand over to the Serb

6 Territorial Defence to be exchanged. I don't know exactly how many people

7 were handed over. There were the Chetniks, but I don't know who and how

8 many. The women and children, I don't know exactly the number.

9 In what condition are these people and who were imprisoned?

10 Well, they were harassed, very exhausted, they were thirsty. They

11 were undernourished. We took some women and children straight to

12 hospital. They're all helpless, exhausted, and miserable.

13 A little boy just got killed beside me. That is all that I can

14 tell you.

15 We were in the house, in the shelter. And they constantly shelled

16 us. There were shells, shells, shells. They killed the cattle and the

17 sheep and everything. They destroyed the houses. Everything.

18 Did they burn them down? And who captured you? Who came to get

19 you?

20 I don't know. Some guys from up there. The Yugoslav Army. They

21 had insignia of the Yugoslav Army. We surrendered to them. We were

22 shelled for 19 hours, and then 5.000 shells were dropped. 280 were

23 dropped in only two hours.


25 Q. Now if I can just pause the video at this point and ask you,

Page 7873

1 Mr. Jahic do you recognise anyone depicted in the clip as you've seen thus

2 far?

3 A. Well, 90 per cent of the people that I saw I know because they're

4 my neighbours. If you need their names and surnames, I can give them to

5 you and tell you something about their fate, their fathers, who had been

6 killed.

7 Q. When you say "neighbours" do you mean people from the settlement

8 of Ahatovici?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Among this group of people, did you have any close family members?

11 A. Yes. I mean, all the people in Ahatovici are closer or more

12 distant relatives. But as for my immediate family, it was my brother,

13 father, my brother's wife, and their one-year-old baby.

14 Q. Now, do you recognise this young boy who's presently in the

15 still --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me.

18 Q. Do you recognise this young boy whose picture you see in the still

19 in front of you?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. And what's his name?

22 A. His name is Adnan Suljic, a boy who could have been 13 or 14 at

23 the time. His father was killed on the bus. Later, he got killed himself

24 as a result of the Chetnik shelling of Sarajevo.

25 Q. All right. Thank you.

Page 7874

1 MS. EDGERTON: We'll just continue to the end of this clip now.

2 [Videoclip played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] I didn't. My father did. We were

4 together in the shelter. They had white bands on their arms. They found

5 us in the shelter, and they took us prisoners. They told us to come out

6 and go with them. They took my husband from the cellar immediately. I

7 don't know anything about my son.

8 Everything that we had was burned down. I had an old house, car.

9 Everything.

10 Did you know some of those people?

11 Yes, they were all our neighbours. They were laughing at us and

12 waving to us while we were crying. Our children were crying. Of course,

13 we recognised them. Our neighbours came to see us off. They gave

14 children a small something while she was crying for her father. There she

15 is. She hadn't seem him for seven days. We were there for 13 days. They

16 were leaving, and the children were crying for them. They took them away

17 and God only knows where. They put him in refrigerator plants. Look at

18 her. She is hungry and thirsty. I don't have anywhere to return. I said

19 so. There's no returning there. When our neighbours who were working in

20 utility services and when it was necessary to clear the snow, he helped

21 everyone, my husband did. He went also to places that nobody could reach.

22 He would clear everything for them and look at what they've done to us.


24 Q. That being the end of this last clip, I'd like to ask you,

25 Mr. Jahic, do you recognise this last woman who was speaking?

Page 7875

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. What's her name?

3 A. Fatija Muharemovic. This woman was also killed as a result of the

4 Chetnik shelling of the city of Sarajevo, and the father of those two

5 crying children is one of the persons we had seen in the previous film.

6 The body in the red jumper with the head blown off. Those children were

7 orphaned, and they are living with their grandmother who is seriously ill.

8 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the last part of the witness's

9 answer. He seems to have said "got sick" or "fell ill."

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there are many such children who

11 were orphaned with their fathers killed on that bus, and what we have just

12 seen is an obvious example of ethnic cleansing wherein all the Muslim

13 population was expelled from Ahatovici. The mosque in Ahatovici was blown

14 up. And even some people from mixed marriages, Muslims and Serbs or

15 Muslims and Croats were expelled. They participated in this exchange.

16 They wanted an ethnically pure Republika Srpska.


18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jahic.

19 MS. EDGERTON: And that concludes the Prosecution's

20 examination-in-chief, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

22 Mr. Jahic, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Loukas who is

23 counsel for the Defence, unless you would say that you need a short break

24 at this very moment, then we would grant you a break. If, however, you

25 say we can start with the cross-examination, Ms. Loukas will be invited to

Page 7876

1 do so.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I need a break, I will say so,

3 because the films we have seen are very moving. I'm fine so far. But if

4 I need a break, I'll tell the Honourable Court.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

9 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, I just want to echo what His Honour has indicated

10 to you, and that is that if at any time you feel you need a break, please

11 let me know.

12 Now, obviously you have been through some events, some horrifying

13 events that no human being should have to experience. So I will try not

14 to touch too directly on the events. But if you find at any point that

15 you need a break, please just let me know.

16 Now, firstly, Mr. Jahic, I think you've given something in the

17 nature of round about six statements to investigators from the ICTY and

18 the Bosnian authorities in relation to the matters of which you've given

19 evidence today and yesterday. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that's your 1993 statement to the Bosnian authorities,

22 firstly. Correct?

23 A. I don't think it was a statement that I gave to the Bosnian

24 authorities. It was rather the author of the book on the crimes in

25 Ahatovici.

Page 7877

1 Q. Right. I'm just dealing first of all with a statement taken by

2 Ibrahim Pasic, Professor Ibrahim Pasic in 1993. That's your first

3 statement in relation to the events. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who do you say Ibrahim Pasic is?

6 A. Excuse me, if I may. It's not the first statement if you take

7 into account the video film which also contains my statement, the first

8 one I gave after I was saved from the bus, if you can call it a statement,

9 what I said just after getting off that bus.

10 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Jahic. I'm just here dealing with your

11 written statements. So the first one is in time is, of course, 1993,

12 which you gave to Professor Ibrahim Pasic. Correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Mr. Ibrahim Pasic is who?

15 A. It's a gentleman who was very interested, anxious to learn about

16 the suffering of one people on the outskirts of Sarajevo. He wanted to

17 write a book for these events to be recorded for future generations so

18 that they can learn what happened there. So on the basis of some

19 statements, he wrote a book about the crimes committed in Ahatovici.

20 Q. And then, of course, you gave a statement to investigators from

21 the Tribunal in 1997?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in 1998, you gave a statement to the Bosnian Investigation and

24 Documentation Agency. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7878

1 Q. And there was a further information sheet to the International

2 Criminal Tribunal in the year 2000?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And a further correction statement in 2001?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And a statement that you gave in 2002 in Sarajevo. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So those six statements represent the written statements that

9 you've given in relation to the matters you've given evidence of yesterday

10 and today. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, yesterday you gave evidence for the benefit of the Court and

13 counsel at page 51, and I think it was touched upon earlier today as well.

14 You indicated that -- you were asked this question by Ms. Edgerton:

15 "Mr. Jahic, you said that one of the other detainees recognised this

16 individual," referring to this person who threw some sort of device

17 through the netted fence. And who was it that recognised this individual?

18 That was the question.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You recognise the incident that I'm talking about there. Now --

21 and your answer was: "It was a friend of mine, a very close friend of

22 mine and a former neighbour. He was a member of the reserve police force,

23 and he recognised the said Chetnik as a former chauffeur and bodyguard for

24 Krajisnik and Jovo Tintor. That Chetnik had arrived in an Audi." You

25 remember that particular portion of your evidence yesterday. Correct,

Page 7879

1 Mr. Jahic?

2 A. Just a small correction. It was not a reserve member. It was a

3 member of the reserve force of the regular police administration of Novi

4 Grad. When you say "reservist," it could be misinterpreted. It is a

5 member of the reserve force of the police administration of Novi Grad.

6 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Jahic. But what I'm reading to you is the

7 translation that's come through. So I don't know if there was perhaps a

8 mistranslation of what you had to say yesterday. But in essence, you

9 agree with the fact that what you've said there is that he recognised the

10 said Chetnik as a former chauffeur and bodyguard for Krajisnik and

11 Jovo Tintor. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, just in relation to that, I think Ms. Edgerton asked you some

14 further questions today, and she asked you if you could remember the name

15 of that person. The name of the person that was -- that had thrown this

16 device in. And you said you couldn't remember at this time. If I take

17 you to the 2002 statement that you gave that I referred to earlier, and

18 for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and counsel, that's page 3 of the

19 2002 interview, just towards the bottom there, you refer to "on 12th of

20 June 1992, a person nicknamed Zuti came by the vehicle Audi of red colour

21 in front of the cistern. Detainee Armin Mujkic knew him personally. On

22 that occasion Zuti threw a gas bomb inside the cistern."

23 Does that assist you with your recollection, Mr. Jahic?

24 A. Yes. If you have finished with your question.

25 Q. Yes, I have. Does that assist you with your recollection? It

Page 7880

1 does, does it?

2 A. Your Honours, at this moment, it has to be clear to all of us that

3 from that time, from the 14th of June 1992, 12 years have elapsed so that

4 I may no longer remember some details that I remembered just after the

5 fact. Maybe my memory has been refreshed through this. Maybe, after all,

6 his nickname wasn't Zuti. Zuti wasn't a name in the former Yugoslavia.

7 Zuti is a nickname. At least I don't know of anyone whose name is Zuti.

8 It could only have been a nickname.

9 As for the rest of the statement, it is evident, self-evident.

10 Q. Indeed. So my question is that to your recollection, the person

11 that Armin Mujkic had told you about was a person who had the nickname

12 Zuti? Correct?

13 A. It's probably true. I mean, Armin Mujkic recognised that person,

14 I repeat, as the chauffeur and a man close to Krajisnik and Jovo Tintor

15 because he, as a member of the reserve unit of the police administration

16 of Novi Grad, worked for a while as part of the security detail guarding

17 the house of Mr. Krajisnik.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, just in relation to that, this information that

19 you received from Mr. Mujkic, you realise, of course, that things you hear

20 from other people might not necessarily be true. Correct?

21 A. I do. But in this case, seeing how the person we're talking about

22 is dead, it could be seen as a fact useful for elucidating this case of

23 genocide, ethnic cleansing, a massacre.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, I understand that feelings are running high and

25 that you've experienced a lot. But you also appreciate that I have

Page 7881

1 questions to ask you, and I need responses to my questions rather than

2 references to --

3 A. Absolutely.

4 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Jahic, Mr. Krajisnik's driver is -- who was his

5 driver? It is obviously a question of which you can give the Court no

6 direct evidence. Correct? But before we go to that, you understand the

7 difference between direct evidence and something you hear from someone

8 else. Correct?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. And the question of who was Mr. Krajisnik's driver is obviously a

11 question on which you can give the Court no direct evidence. Correct?

12 A. Yes. But if you take into account the fact that some photographs

13 of these people are available, I could identify that person because I saw

14 the person with my own eyes. What I heard from someone else is indirect,

15 yes.

16 Q. Well, describe that person.

17 A. It was a person that arrived in an Audi, as I said. He was

18 extremely stocky, a very large man. I would put his height at between 190

19 and 195, built as an athlete, fair-haired. He had cowlicks or maybe a

20 receding hairline. I don't know. Maybe he was getting bald. Anyway, on

21 that day, he came just outside the hangar and threw in that gas bomb with

22 the intention of killing us, saying "don't be afraid, balijas. It's not a

23 real bomb. Fuck your mothers."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jahic, may I just interrupt for one moment. Do

25 you speak or understand any English?

Page 7882

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Not much. Could you please take your headphones off

3 for one second.

4 Ms. Edgerton, my question would be whether any formal position,

5 what is the position of the Prosecution in respect of that formal quality

6 of someone who came to that place? Because we see that -- of course the

7 Defence responds to it. Is it -- what relevance does it have? I mean...

8 Is there any suggestion that he might have communicated that to the person

9 who employed him before?

10 MS. EDGERTON: One small factor that might go to show knowledge on

11 the part of the accused, Your Honour, and together with that would be

12 reference to the fact that the accused did live so close to the events

13 where this was taking place. No more than that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So since he was formerly employed and since he was

15 living nearby, that you would not exclude that a former employee might

16 have met. Is there any further evidence for that, or is it just that --

17 the possibility which is not excluded?

18 MS. EDGERTON: The possibility which is not excluded,

19 Your Honours.


21 Ms. Loukas, perhaps you can keep this in the back of your mind.

22 If we -- I mean, who would exclude such a possibility? But no further

23 evidence will be presented on that, and you'll understand that this may

24 have its impact on the assessment of the importance and the relevance of

25 this specific aspect of the testimony of the witness.

Page 7883

1 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. I take on board what

2 Your Honour has said --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

4 MS. LOUKAS: -- and I have further question in relation to this

5 matter.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you assist the witness to put his

7 headphones on again.


9 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, if I were to indicate to you that Mr. Krajisnik's

10 driver was a man called Djuro Tadic who certainly does not have a nickname

11 of Zuti and does not meet your description, you would know of nothing to

12 directly contradict that. Correct?

13 A. That's what you say and your knowledge. I say and state, and I

14 have taken the solemn oath here to tell the truth and only the truth.

15 Perhaps you do have that knowledge and information. I have told you what

16 I have come here for; that is, to tell you everything about the case I

17 know that took place during that period of time.

18 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Jahic. Now, moving on --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, just for the Chamber to better understand

20 both the testimony and your question, is there any time frame attached to

21 what you put to the witness?

22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, Mr. Krajisnik had the same driver

23 before, during, and after the war.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us any indication about already

25 for how long? I mean, even before the war, if you have a driver -- well,

Page 7884

1 let's say it could have been in 1991, and if someone then turns up, you

2 could say, this is the former, and that could relate to 1989 or whatever.

3 Could you give us a bit more indication on what the basis of your position

4 is.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Not necessarily at this very moment. If you

7 say "I'll try to..."

8 MS. LOUKAS: That's a problem, Your Honour, of not having

9 Ms. Cmeric because I cannot communicate directly with Mr. Krajisnik.

10 JUDGE ORIE: What we could do, perhaps, is that the name you just

11 mentioned -- I'm not the one of course who should guide the Defence, but

12 if Mr. Krajisnik would write down the first day of the employment of the

13 driver whose name you just gave, then it might assist you.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. We'll revert to handwriting.

15 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]

16 MS. LOUKAS: Well, handwriting is obviously very useful,

17 Your Honour, and I can indicate we're covering a period here from the

18 first day that Mr. Krajisnik was in parliament until he was arrested.


20 MS. LOUKAS: And came to The Hague.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. Yes. What was just put to you

22 by. Loukas, Mr. Jahic, covered the period on from the moment that

23 Mr. Krajisnik was in parliament. I take it that this doesn't change in

24 any way your answer where you said "I came here to testify of what I

25 know," and I do understand that you heard that the man who appeared was a

Page 7885

1 former driver and bodyguard of Mr. Krajisnik. Is that correct?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard -- let me repeat once again,

3 that it was a man, first and foremost, who was close. Now whether

4 somebody from the bodyguards or driver, if there was one driver, well, I

5 don't know whether that is him or not. I can't know that, and neither can

6 you. Now, whether there was anybody from his personal guard, personal

7 bodyguard who would correspond to that description, I don't know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems to be sufficient, Ms. Loukas, for you

9 to go to your next subject.

10 MS. LOUKAS: I would have thought so, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, just going to your statement to the ICTY

12 investigators in 1997, you, of course, told the truth in that statement,

13 subject to corrections that you later gave in 2000 and 2001. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As, in fact, you've told the truth in all your statements.

16 Correct?

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. Now, if we go to page 5 of your ICTY statement, in English it's

19 the third paragraph for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and counsel, and

20 it's the first paragraph in the B/C/S version, you indicate there, and

21 I'll just read it to you, there's no need to have the statement before

22 you. "My earlier statement" - this is what you've got in your ICTY

23 statement; I'm just about to read it to you. "My earlier statement from

24 March 28 1993 mentions that Seseljovici and Arkanovici and other soldiers

25 were attacking Ahatovici. The figure of 15.000 aggressor soldiers is

Page 7886

1 likely correct, but there is no way I could have known who was attacking

2 the village. I would like to make this clear from my earlier statement.

3 I think the man who was transcribing the statement has inserted this."

4 Do you recall that portion of your ICTY statement that I'm

5 referring you to, Mr. Jahic?

6 A. Yes. If you want me to clarify some particulars related to the

7 Seselj men and Arkan's man, Seseljovici and Arkanovici, I saw a lot of

8 that Chetnik army, and that doesn't exclude the possibility of them being

9 Seselj's and Arkan's men, but I can't say with any certainty. So,

10 probably, that is the idea presented by the author compiling that text.

11 Q. I understand that you don't exclude the possibility, but what I

12 want you to do is just -- because this will take a while if we're not

13 focussed on you actually answering the question that I'm asking as opposed

14 to adding other aspects in. And we're always subject to time limitations

15 here. If you can answer a question with a yes or no answer, that would be

16 very useful in terms of ensuring that we're focussed on what the questions

17 are.

18 You understand what I'm saying, of course?

19 A. I do understand. However, there might not be answers that you can

20 express with just a yes or no.

21 Q. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to explain to you, Mr. Jahic. The

23 question put to you by Ms. Loukas was just about whether you remembered

24 that you made that statement, and then she would have some specific

25 questions. If at the end of the questions put by Ms. Loukas you think

Page 7887

1 that there is something very important missing, you could always address

2 us. But Ms. Loukas might have specific points in mind which she would

3 like to clarify. So if she first asks you whether you remember that

4 statement, I think there a yes or no could do. And then let's first hear

5 what specific questions she would have. And if at the end something

6 should be added, please address me.

7 Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. So, the situation there is, Mr. Jahic, that you think that the man

10 who was transcribing your statement from 1993 has inserted the mention of

11 Seseljovici, Arkanovici. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, if we go to page 6 of your ICTY statement, that's, for the

14 benefit of counsel and the Trial Chamber, first paragraph in the English

15 statement and last paragraph of page 5 in the B/C/S statement. Now, there

16 you indicate that -- and you're dealing at the time there with the attack

17 on your village. And you indicate there "one of the Chetniks had

18 something like a Zolja pointed directly at us all this time. He fired it

19 above our heads at a nearby Muslim house behind us. I know which house

20 was hit and it burnt down. As regards this mention in my March 28, 1993,

21 statement of the house having been the headquarters of the 3rd Platoon of

22 the Ahatovici Company, I think those are the words of the man who took my

23 statement. This may have been such a headquarters, but I have never known

24 any information to that effect."

25 Now, you recall, of course, that portion of your ICTY statement in

Page 7888

1 1997, Mr. Jahic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in your 1993 statement, you indicate that the statement

4 [sic] that was burned down was the headquarters of the 3rd Platoon of the

5 Ahatovici Company. That was in your 1993 statement. Correct?

6 A. Probably. I mean, from 1993 to 1997, that's a four-year period.

7 So perhaps my memory was fresher at the time about some of the events. As

8 I say, it's been a long time since then, 12 years, in fact. But all the

9 more important things, the essential points that are in the statement, are

10 ones that I can remember. I remember the name of that person who fired

11 from the Zolja, for instance. Now, at that point in time, perhaps I had

12 more information and knew whether it was staff or not, headquarters or

13 not.

14 As far as I'm concerned, for me, those -- well, the Defence seems

15 to be attaching itself to some minor points. That is their right, of

16 course. But we must bear in mind the essentials.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jahic, may I ask you to refrain from commenting

18 on the Defence position because matters that might be of great importance

19 for the Defence, although are not in the centre of how you experienced

20 this time, you might not be aware of the importance of that. So if you

21 would please answer the questions put by Ms. Loukas, and we'll later have

22 to assess what is important, most important for this case. And apart from

23 the very emotional experiences you had, there might be other aspects that

24 are also relevant for this Chamber to hear.

25 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

Page 7889

1 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Now, Witness, you do understand that it is the Judge's job to

3 listen to the answers that you give from questions from both the

4 Prosecution and the Defence. You appreciate that fact, don't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, just going back to what I was asking you, the 1993 statement

7 that you gave indicates that there was this house in your village which

8 was the headquarters of the 3rd Platoon of the Ahatovici Company. And you

9 refer to that in your statement to the Tribunal. Correct? We're agreed

10 up to this point, are we?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is that the case, that the -- that this house was the

13 headquarters of the 3rd Platoon of the Ahatovici Company?

14 A. As I've said, perhaps in 1993, and that's quite logical, I had

15 fresher recollections and I stated them at the time. Now, after all that

16 time, I can't say with certainty whether the Chetnik hit the house, that

17 house or another house.

18 Q. No, Mr. Jahic, that it was the headquarters of the 3rd Platoon of

19 the Ahatovici Company at the time.

20 A. Could you reformulate your question, please. Do you know that it

21 was the headquarters? Is that what you're saying, or what?

22 Q. This is what's said in your 1993 statement: "When we surrendered

23 I saw with my own eyes when Marinko Simeutovic fired a grenade at a house

24 in which -- during the attack on the village was located the headquarters

25 of the 3rd Platoon of the Ahatovici Company. The house was set on fire

Page 7890

1 immediately, and very soon it burned down." That's what's contained

2 within your 1993 statement.

3 A. Yes, probably that was it. Because that's when I made the

4 statement, so that must have been it.

5 Q. Okay. And in your 1997 statement to the Tribunal, you say

6 that "as regards this mention in my March 1993 statement of the house

7 being the headquarters of the 3rd platoon of the Ahatovici Company, I

8 think those are the words of the man who took my statement. This may have

9 been such a headquarters, but I have never known any information to that

10 effect." And we agree that that's contained within your ICTY statement.

11 Correct?

12 A. [No Interpretation]

13 Q. So you're asserting that that portion of what's contained in your

14 1993 statement was inserted by the man who took your statement,

15 Mr. -- Professor Ibrahim Pasic. Correct?

16 A. Perhaps I said so then, but when you live through the kind of

17 thing to live through, a genocide of that type, you can't remember some of

18 the minor details. There were many statements. Now, whether there could

19 have been a mistake, whether I actually said that, some of those minor,

20 unimportant points I really can't remember now.

21 Q. Okay. In relation to your 1993 statement again, you state this:

22 "During the Chetnik attack on the village of Ahatovici, as a soldier of

23 the BH armed forces, I was fighting against the Chetniks, former JNA,

24 Seselj, and Arkan's soldiers." That's part of your 1993 statement. Are

25 we agreed?

Page 7891

1 A. Perhaps. I don't have the statement before me.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. I was just going to make

4 the suggestion that it might be helpful to either have a break at this

5 time or provide the witness with a copy of his 1993 statement.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I can't imagine that a witness to whom

7 certain lines are read --

8 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps it should be discussed in the absence of the

9 witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please take your headphones off, or

11 perhaps we'll have a break. Perhaps That might be better.

12 Mr. Jahic, we're going to have a break. Could you follow

13 Madam Usher and leave the courtroom. We'll continue in approximately 20

14 or 25 minutes.

15 Ms. Loukas, if it is asked to someone what he said some 11 years

16 ago, he might not be certain about whether that was really exactly what he

17 said or not, and therefore has had some hesitations to confirm that.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, we have a written statement. I'm

19 happy to put the written statement --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, to some extent, it's part of what I

21 call the ritual questions, whether that's his statement. Of course that's

22 his statement as it's written down unless there was any forgery in place

23 which I do not expect to be there. So therefore, I think this Chamber

24 would not mind, first of all, if you give his B/C/S version of the

25 statement to the witness, and then -- unless there would be any objection

Page 7892

1 from the Prosecution, that we just say, as you can see, you gave a

2 statement saying that, and then put further questions to the witness,

3 instead of just asking him to reread it all and ask whether this was his

4 statement.

5 Of course, if he could correct that statement, but he has done

6 that already in many instances in later statements. I think it would be

7 more practical to find a more direct way to confront the witness with any

8 inconsistencies or uncertainties because that's what I understand you're

9 doing at this moment.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Because of course the statement

11 taken in 1993 was of course closer to the events. And of course, the

12 matters that I've taken the witness to are not, in fact, minor

13 discrepancies but matters of some significance.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not blaming you for going into that area,

15 but a more direct way might be easier for the witness and would not -- if

16 there's no objection from the Prosecution, the Chamber would allow you to

17 do so.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

19 The -- what time did Your Honour say --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I said 20 to 25 minutes, and I had in mind that we

21 would need 2 or 3 minutes, and we will adjourn until a quarter to 1.00.

22 But if there's anything you'd like to raise at this moment.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, of course, we have the interpreter

24 on standby again. So...

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you think you --

Page 7893

1 MS. LOUKAS: Because we didn't manage to finish the conference on

2 the last occasion.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay, I do understand. On the other hand, I'm a

4 bit concerned about -- the Defence asked for not sitting on Thursday and

5 Friday, and we granted that. And yesterday you gave me a clear impression

6 that we would finish with the two witnesses before Thursday. Is that

7 still your expectation?

8 MS. LOUKAS: Actually no, Your Honour. I must say, in view of the

9 fact that I received again by email last night a supplemental information

10 sheet in relation to the next witness introducing new matters, Your

11 Honour, that will require additional investigation. And in those

12 circumstances, I think that we'll probably get through the evidence in

13 chief. But, Your Honour, it's not a question of the Defence being able to

14 cross-examine when it contains new material at the last moment.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, we do not know what the exact impact

16 is, but that would mean we should keep a witness here from Wednesday until

17 next Monday. Mr. Hannis, do you have any --

18 MR. HANNIS: When we became aware of this possibility, we spoke

19 with the witness and, Your Honour, I would rather if we could not finish

20 his cross-examination this week, not have him stay over. This has been a

21 very emotional time for him.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The next witness, or this one? It's the next

23 witness.

24 MR. HANNIS: The next witness. Something that came up in the

25 proofing was very difficult for him, and I think it would be better if he

Page 7894

1 were able to go home and come back in two weeks or something, rather than

2 staying over.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try very much to focus on what's the core

4 of the case. This case as far as I understand should finally not depend

5 on whether there is an opportunity, although further unproven, that

6 someone who might have been employed before that he could have contacted.

7 I mean, we are far off from what's the core of the case. I'm not blaming

8 you, Ms. Loukas, because it has been introduced by the Prosecution.

9 MS. LOUKAS: And I have to meet it. Once it has been introduced

10 by the Prosecution --

11 JUDGE ORIE: And it also depends on the relevance and the

12 importance. And what you also could, as I did before, say what's the

13 importance for the Prosecution. I mean, you can't strike anything out,

14 although you could even consider that, and say: Well, that's in his

15 previous statement. But that would cause all kinds of deep investigations

16 that might lead to nowhere. So therefore, whether we should just ignore

17 the parties, we'll ignore that a person who came in an Audi was said to

18 have earlier been employed which could lead to a possible conclusion that

19 if you're employed by someone before, that you might have contacted him at

20 a later stage. Of course, I could have contacted over the last two weeks

21 my boss of 20 years ago. But it's not very likely, and it's really not

22 the core of the case.

23 So I'd like the parties to concentrate of what's really the

24 important part. And --

25 MS. LOUKAS: I just will make one comment in relation to that,

Page 7895

1 Your Honour.


3 MS. LOUKAS: And that is that, firstly, the Tribunal does accept

4 hearsay, subject to weight, firstly. Secondly, Your Honour put a question

5 to the Prosecution in relation to this evidence, and they said that they

6 were relying on it. And it's incumbent on the Prosecution to focus their

7 case so that the Defence can also focus their case. If the Prosecution

8 proceeds in a sort of an - and I'm not blaming Ms. Edgerton for this -

9 but, you know, sort of open-slather fashion, you know, every [inaudible]

10 is part of the mosaic, then, Your Honour, we're forced to ensure that we

11 cover every angle as well, when one is dealing with charges as serious as

12 these and the wide notions of joint criminal enterprise and command

13 responsibility.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just to refer to this very example, the weight

15 that a reasonable Chamber could attach to this possibility in order to

16 support a decision negative for Mr. Krajisnik is, and I think all parties

17 would understand that, is if not zero, close to that.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, in that case, it shouldn't be introduced

19 by the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, I also urge the parties to see

21 whether these kind of matters that take a lot of time and are not in the

22 core of the case could not be avoided either by saying: Well, if you

23 really would like to keep this or this element in, then we have to spend a

24 lot of time on it. And I think it -- of course, I'm not -- I cannot

25 forecast what the future will bring us. But I hardly can imagine that

Page 7896

1 either the Prosecution or Defence would expect that this would really --

2 an element that was worth so much attention.

3 MS. LOUKAS: I agree, Your Honour, and this is the sort of

4 material that shouldn't be introduced as part of the Prosecution case,

5 full stop.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. We observe that notion.

7 We'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into

11 the courtroom.

12 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Jahic, were you a soldier of the Bosnia-Herzegovina armed

15 forces?

16 A. Yes, I was a member of the Territorial Defence of Ahatovici.

17 Q. Now, just going on to your 1993 statement, and we have a copy of

18 the B/C/S version of your 1993 statement that I can put before you.

19 MS. LOUKAS: I indicate to the Court that we produced some copies,

20 but the Prosecution also helpfully provided some copies as well,

21 Your Honour, which was gratefully received.

22 Q. Now, you have that statement before you, the B/C/S version of your

23 1993 statement, Mr. Jahic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, I want to take you to the last page of your statement. Have

Page 7897

1 you got the last page of your statement, Mr. Jahic?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And if you look -- do you see paragraph 25 there where you have

4 stated -- this is in reference to the bus. "The massacre was probably

5 committed by people from our escort whom I saw when I boarded the bus. I

6 do not know their names, but I may be able to recognise them." Do you see

7 that portion of your statement there?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. So of course, at the time you gave that statement, you indicated

10 that the -- that you weren't sure that the -- it was committed by people

11 from your escort. Correct?

12 A. I was certain, but as I stated in a supplement to this text, the

13 author took the liberty. Later I made some corrections. I don't know

14 which exactly, but as for my statement quoted here, I stated that I

15 personally saw one man out of the escort shooting.

16 Q. And of course, you've said nothing about that man in your 1993

17 statement. Correct?

18 A. Which man?

19 Q. The man you've just indicated in your last answer. "Personally

20 saw one man out of the escort shooting."

21 A. You mean the one with the Audi?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Yes, I saw him personally shooting, and that Audi followed us from

24 Rajlovac to the site of the massacre because I saw that car again come

25 back to the scene of the crime and the man shoot at the dead bodies.

Page 7898

1 Q. Mr. Jahic, I understand you say that now. But you agree with me

2 that you say nothing about that man coming back and shooting in your 1993

3 statement. Correct?

4 A. As far as I can see, it is not in this statement.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, these are the kind of ritual questions

6 that, of course, the Chamber can read the statement and if it does not

7 appear there, then it's quite clear.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We are not a jury. Even without specifically drawing

10 the attention -- if you say there's a difference as far as this man is

11 concerned, because it doesn't appear in the 1993 statement, then, of

12 course the Chamber is perfectly able to verify that.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

16 Perhaps the witness might be able to remove his headphones for a

17 minute while I address Your Honour, or --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Unless it's really of great importance. I mean,

19 you've put the questions that you go but it's just -- you always say "a

20 marker," it's what a marker is for.

21 MS. LOUKAS: It is a marker. Indeed, Your Honour. Now -- I think

22 that the witness might have to then --

23 JUDGE ORIE: He took them off already. I didn't notice that.

24 There was even no need, Mr. Jahic.


Page 7899

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jahic, for removing your microphones. But

2 fortunately, there was no need after all.

3 Now, just in relation to your use of the term "probably" in your

4 1993 statement, you say there that that is something is that

5 Mr. Ibrahim Pasic inserted this your statement. Is that what you're

6 telling the Court?

7 A. There was a number of things. As far as I can see, that statement

8 was drawn up for the purposes of a book. It's not a statement drawn up by

9 any official authorities or anything. He probably asked me things that

10 interested him, although there are quite a few things here that have not

11 been included in the statement. It's the statement that I gave for the

12 purposes of this book, "Crimes in Ahatovici." It was not part of an

13 investigative procedure or an interview where everything would be stated,

14 asked and answered precisely.

15 Q. The fact is, Mr. Jahic, that you can't be certain who committed

16 that atrocity. That's the case, is it not?

17 A. I am certain about the identity of those who committed the crime,

18 and I even named the person from the escort who drove the vehicle that I

19 also identified. I saw him shooting. I saw him throw two hand grenades

20 into the bus, and I saw him leave in the direction of Srednje. I included

21 that in my statement -- here in my testimony, rather, under solemn oath.

22 Q. And of course, you didn't mention these matters to Mr. Pasic who

23 took your 1993 statement. Correct?

24 A. I am telling you again that Mr. Pasic is a professor, a writer.

25 He asked me about the things that interested him. I don't even know

Page 7900

1 whether this statement can be used as evidence. There are some things in

2 it that I didn't say, and on the other hand there are other things that

3 happened that I knew for certain and that are not included in this

4 statement.

5 Q. Now, in relation to your 1993 statement again, you refer to Sok

6 interrogating you. Do you see that portion of your statement?

7 A. Which page? Can you tell me so that I can find it.

8 Q. It's page 3 in the English, and it's the paragraph that mentions

9 Mr. Hasan Mujkic. That's paragraphs 15 and 16 in the B/C/S version. So

10 it's page 2, and it's the third-last and second-last paragraphs.

11 Now, you refer there to being interrogated by Sok, and him asking

12 you about your role in the war, about mortars, about Hasan Mujkic, our

13 commander, about snipers, et cetera. "I tried to convince him that the

14 people who were responsible for mortars and snipers were not among the

15 prisoners and that they had escaped towards Visoko." That's true --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay, so that portion, Dr. Pasic got correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So if we were to speak to Mr. Pasic, I take it he would confirm

22 that all these matters that are contained within the statement are not

23 matters that you told him; some are, some aren't. Is that correct?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I think that calls for some

Page 7901

1 speculation on the part of the witness. I don't know how he could know

2 what Mr. Pasic might or might not say.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I think that the witness -- whether it

4 would be confirmed by Mr. Pasic or not is, of course, something the

5 witness could not know, could he?

6 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. And I'm happy to withdraw the

7 question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


10 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, just going to your statement there in relation to

11 Hasan Mujkic, he was, in fact, your local commander in the area?

12 A. Yes, the commander of the Territorial Defence of Ahatovici.

13 Q. Now, I just want to take you to your 1997 statement to the ICTY

14 authorities. And we have a copy of that statement in B/C/S for you,

15 Mr. Jahic.

16 A. Your Honours, just one question, if I may ask: Is it possible to

17 use in these proceedings statements made by a person who is not competent

18 to collect statements? He is a writer. He's not a member of the police,

19 of the ICTY, of the agency for investigations and documentation or

20 anything. I don't know to what extent this statement is authoritative or

21 authentic. It's made by an author, a writer. I don't even know how this

22 statement got here, how it ended up in the ICTY. Because this is a man

23 who wrote books, and as an author he could have inserted his own ideas.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Jahic, the Chamber clearly understood your

25 testimony that when you were confronted with this statement, that you

Page 7902

1 expressed as your view that parts of it were words spoken not by you, and

2 that you have drawn your attention to the special character of this

3 statement, and this was not unobserved by the Chamber. To what extent

4 it's used, it's not -- first of all, that statement is not in evidence

5 apart from the parts that were read to you. And I think it's -- the

6 Defence, perhaps also the Prosecution wants to get a clearer view on the

7 consistency of your recollection over the years. And I think both parties

8 have well understood that you say that the 1993 statement might not serve

9 for that purpose very well since you are not convinced that everything

10 what you said is reflected in it, just as some of what is said in that

11 statement might not have been your words. So I think the parties noticed

12 that; the Chamber certainly noticed that as well. And then we'll finally

13 assess what the use could be.

14 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. As I indicated, the B/C/S

16 version of Mr. Jahic's ICTY statement should now be before him.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Jahic, if we go to what is page 4 of the English, the

18 third paragraph, and in the B/C/S, page 4 of the second paragraph, which

19 is paragraph 21 - I think that statement is numbered. I'll just wait

20 until you get to that paragraph.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Now, that's the paragraph that reads "we started to

23 organise ourselves in connection with the Novi Grad TO staff. All

24 together, there was between 120 and 150 of us. Our commander at that time

25 was appointed by the Novi Grad TO. I don't know who it was. We used to

Page 7903

1 go to buy weapons and get supplies from TO Visoko. A certain number of

2 people were required for that trip to organise protection through Chetnik

3 territory for the people who were carrying the weapons. I was part of

4 that protection squad."

5 So just in relation to that paragraph, how many times did you act

6 as protection for obtaining weapons?

7 A. Once.

8 Q. And what sort of weapons were obtained?

9 A. For the most part, as I said in my statement, it was light

10 infantry weapons. Mainly semi-automatic and automatic rifles.

11 Q. And how many of those were obtained?

12 A. I cannot answer that question precisely.

13 Q. Well, can you -- I'm not asking you to be precise. I'm asking you

14 to be approximate.

15 A. Well, a fact that could help us get to a specific answer to that

16 question is that we were about 120 men. And if we know that not all of us

17 had those rifles, some of us had makeshift weapons or self-made rifles.

18 Maybe 70 per cent out of those 120 men had those light infantry weapons.

19 Q. So you got about 70 light infantry weapons from the Territorial

20 Defence of Visoko?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In any event, it was more than a couple?

23 A. I don't understand the question.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, it's approximately 85. Please proceed.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Approximately 85, yes. Okay.

Page 7904

1 Q. It's just that, Mr. Jahic, you indicated in your evidence

2 yesterday at page 13 that -- and of course you gave the Trial Chamber the

3 truth yesterday when you were giving your evidence, as you are today.

4 Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you've indicated today that you got about 70 light infantry

7 weapons from the Territorial Defence of Visoko. Correct?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters don't hear the witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jahic, could you please clearly answer the

10 questions because the interpreters have difficulty in hearing you. We'll

11 put the microphone a bit closer.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.


14 Q. Because yesterday you were asked at page 13, for the benefit of

15 counsel and the Trial Chamber, "How did you get a hold of those weapons?"

16 And your answer was: "Well, some people from Ahatovici had purchased

17 their weapons, which was possible, just before things started happening.

18 I don't know exactly where they bought them, but I know weapons could be

19 bought up to a certain time. Some of the weapons came from the

20 Territorial Defence of Visoko, but I stress again it was only a couple of

21 rifles."

22 So which one's the truth? What you're saying today, or what you

23 gave evidence of yesterday?

24 A. Since I just told you the percentage of weapons we obtained, maybe

25 I gave too hasty an answer yesterday. You can determine by comparison.

Page 7905

1 We had that many weapons, and it was a certain small portion of what the

2 Chetniks had in their barracks, in their arsenals. So you can view it as

3 some sort of comparison. Some people indeed bought rifles. But if you

4 know that the total number of people who had those rifles was -- I don't

5 remember what exactly was said, Your Honour, what number you gave. 70, I

6 think. That also includes the number of rifles we received from the

7 Territorial Defence.

8 And just a minute, if you'll excuse me, Your Honour, before I

9 continue, I would appreciate it if we could have better coordination of

10 interpretation because it happened several times already that my words are

11 being taken and placed into a different context. Once already I talked

12 about the reserve police force, and it was interpreted as reservist.

13 Another time, Zuti was referred to as a name, where it's actually a

14 nickname. So maybe you should take into account, then, in the process of

15 interpreting from the Bosnian language some things are placed in a

16 different context.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you observe that there's any translation

18 problem or whenever you find that in view of a question that's put to you

19 at a later stage that there could be a translation problem, please address

20 me. Until now, I think we identified them. And our interpreters are

21 doing a very difficult job, and they are doing it quite well. But

22 whenever there's any shortcoming, please address me.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Now, just going back to the evidence you gave yesterday, page 17

Page 7906

1 for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and the Court, you gave some evidence

2 about watching the attack from the Rajlovac barracks against the

3 Sokolje-populated area with your own eyes. So you watched that from

4 Ahatovici. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And how far in terms of kilometres is Ahatovici from the Rajlovac

7 barracks?

8 A. I cannot say precisely, but I believe it's 4 to 5 kilometres.

9 Q. And the -- from Ahatovici where you were watching, how far is the

10 Sokolje populated area that you referred to in your evidence yesterday?

11 A. Well, similarly, the populated area of Rajlovac and the populated

12 area of Sokolje are only divided by a road that passes through. They are

13 very close to each other.

14 Q. Okay. So you didn't, of course, have the benefit of binoculars,

15 did you?

16 A. I don't know for sure whether I was watching through binoculars or

17 not, but the configuration of Ahatovici is such that its altitude is

18 higher than that of the surrounding populated areas. So you could see

19 well even without binoculars.

20 Q. All right. So you're saying that from a distance of 4 to 5

21 kilometres, that you were able to see the attack. Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that -- as you indicated yesterday, that you believe that

24 artillery weapons were used in that attack. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7907

1 Q. And these attacks --

2 A. And infantry weapons as well.

3 Q. And these attacks were mounted in the evening hours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now --

6 A. Usually, since these attacks were numerous, they usually started

7 in the evening and lasted into the night using infantry weapons with some

8 sort of light-emitting rounds so that you could see exactly where they

9 were headed. And the same goes for artillery weapons.

10 Q. Okay. Now, moving on to another topic, in your evidence yesterday

11 at page 20, you indicated that on the 2nd of June 1992, our defence, the

12 defence of the Ahatovici settlement could no longer resist the attacks

13 launched by the Chetniks so that they managed to break through our defence

14 lines at three or four places, and they started entering the Ahatovici

15 settlement.

16 Now, I think you indicated in your ICTY statement that there were

17 about -- that you'd organised about between 120 to 150 of you. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. About 120 men.

20 Q. And this attack, of course, was -- went for a period of over five

21 days, from about the 25th of May until the 2nd of June when there was

22 surrender. Correct?

23 A. The 29th. Not the 20th of May, but the 29th of May to the 2nd of

24 June. Or rather to the fall of Ahatovici.

25 Q. So we're dealing then with a period of -- the 2nd of June would be

Page 7908

1 the fifth day. Correct? We're dealing with a period of, say, four to

2 five days. We'd be agreed on that, would we not?

3 A. Probably, yes.

4 Q. And you also indicated in your statement that there were 1500

5 aggressor soldiers. Correct?

6 A. Well, that's a rough estimate of mine, taking into account the

7 fact that around Ahatovici, there were three large military facilities, or

8 rather three large barracks, Rajlovac, Butile, and Ilijas. And in view of

9 the fact that Vogosca -- at Vogosca, there was a large concentration of

10 Chetniks, or rather the aggressor army.

11 Q. Okay. So would it be right to say, then, that over a period of

12 four to five days, 120 to 150 men were able to keep away 1500 soldiers?

13 Is that what your evidence is?

14 A. Looking at it this way, those attacks were artillery ones, heavy

15 artillery was used. And the true intention was to kill as much of the

16 population as possible, or rather the people who had taken part in the

17 defence, to set fire to the area, to create an atmosphere and mood of war.

18 There were one or two attempts, for example, on the part of the infantry

19 during that time, but they kept shelling the area between the 29th of May

20 until the 2nd of June 1992. And many houses were burnt down. Many people

21 were wounded in the shelling.

22 Q. Mr. Jahic, were you aware of a plan by fighters from Ahatovici to

23 attack the Butile military barracks?

24 A. I say with certainty that there was no attack being prepared, nor

25 was there any attack at all during the period from 1992 or in 1992. It

Page 7909

1 would be unthinkable that 120 people would go against a barracks in

2 Butile, which was a well-fortified feature.

3 Q. Now, in view of the time that we have available, Mr. Jahic, I'm

4 going to put a number of questions to you that should hopefully be capable

5 of a yes or no answer which would mean, I think, that we could finish this

6 afternoon so that you don't have to stay an additional day in The Hague.

7 And I think we can probably get through them in about 10 minutes.

8 Okay, were you aware of Mr. Hasan Mujic being chief commander of a

9 paramilitary formation in Ahatovici?

10 A. It wasn't a paramilitary formation. It was the Territorial

11 Defence.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. But yes, he was the commander of that.

14 Q. Were you aware of soldiers from Ahatovici seeking to link Sarajevo

15 and Visoko via Rajlovac?

16 A. Could you repeat that question, please.

17 Q. Yes. Were you aware of soldiers from Ahatovici seeking to link

18 territorially Sarajevo and Visoko via Rajlovac? Were you aware of a plan

19 of that nature?

20 A. No. There were no other soldiers, except the locals of Ahatovici,

21 people who were residents there who had lived there since time immemorial,

22 lived in Ahatovici. There were no other soldiers.

23 As for a plan, I've never heard of that.

24 Q. Are you aware of joint patrols being organised in and around April

25 and May in Novi Grad Municipality, particularly in Dobrosevici? That is

Page 7910

1 joint patrols of Serbs, Muslims, and Croats?

2 A. As far as I know, there were no such patrols.

3 Q. Now, are you aware of a -- checkpoints being set up by all three

4 peoples, Serbs, Muslims, and Croats in your local municipality?

5 A. There were no checkpoints, except the barricades on the two

6 bridges that I mentioned yesterday during my testimony. So they were

7 barricades on the bridges at Reljevo and Bojnik through which we were not

8 able to pass.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could we just verify that there's no --

10 you said municipality, which would cover the whole of -- the whole of the

11 municipality, or just the part where the witness lived? There might be

12 some misunderstanding.

13 When you said there were no checkpoints, would that be true for

14 the whole of the municipality, or were you just describing what happened

15 in the area close to where you lived?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about Ahatovici

17 specifically, because we couldn't know what was going on in Novi Grad, for

18 example, because we weren't able to reach Novi Grad because of the

19 barricades that had been erected on the two bridges that I mentioned.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas, that at least clarifies that the

21 answer of the witness is limited to --

22 MS. LOUKAS: Of course, Your Honour, yes.

23 Q. Now, were you aware of a meeting in your local area, in the area

24 of your community and Dobrosevici, that there was a meeting in order to

25 maintain and promote peace, and they invited people from all the populated

Page 7911

1 areas in your local community in the second half of the month of April

2 1992? Are you aware of a meeting of that nature? The meeting was held in

3 the cultural centre in Reljevo.

4 A. I know something about the event. Some of our neighbours called

5 us. And several times in different ways, they tried to bring us into

6 certain places, probably to make their job easier, like they did in the

7 other places.

8 Q. In any event, you were not at that meeting. Is that correct,

9 Mr. Jahic?

10 A. No, and I don't think the meeting ever actually took place.

11 Q. Well, if I were to tell you that a meeting of that nature did take

12 place, you would have no direct evidence to contradict that, would you,

13 Mr. Jahic?

14 A. I gave you my own personal opinion now. You can take it or not.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Mr. Jahic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

17 Is there any need to put any further questions to the witness,

18 Ms. Edgerton?

19 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I should like to ask you

25 for a clarification, if I may. During your testimony yesterday, you

Page 7912

1 described the attack against your village, Ahatovici, and you said that

2 the women and the children and the elderly were -- had taken refuge in a

3 building, in a building in the village, and that the attacking forces

4 targeted that building, knowing full well that the building was inhabited

5 or occupied by these women, children, and elderly persons.

6 Now, how did you arrive at that conclusion, that the attackers

7 knew who was in the building?

8 A. Well, they could see and target with their snipers in unimpeded

9 fashion because the configuration of the terrain around Ahatovici is such

10 that the surrounding hills and the houses inhabited by Bosnian Serbs were

11 up in the hills, and Ahatovici is in the valley down below. So you had a

12 good view of the whole of Ahatovici. It was like in the palm of your

13 hand. And they were the Koprivica houses, Stepovac, the Krstac hill.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But that's your personal

15 conclusion? You haven't got any concrete information about that? That's

16 what you yourself deduce?

17 A. Well, they could see what was going on because it was very close

18 by.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So what you're saying is they saw

20 the women and children and elderly moving towards that particular

21 building, that house, and they waited for them to get there, and then

22 launched their attack on that house. Is that right?

23 A. For the most part, yes, you could say that that is what happened.

24 But while they were in the house itself, some of those women and the

25 people there, the elderly people, had to go out of the shelter, leave the

Page 7913

1 shelter. Because to be inside five days without any food or water, it was

2 actually a cellar that they were, a dark cellar, so people had to go

3 outside to get a breath of fresh air, for example. There were 150 people

4 there, so when you have that many people in such a small space, 50 square

5 metres or 70 square metres of dark space, they had to leave from time to

6 time. And so I assume that they were noticed and that the people knew

7 where the women and children were. They had seen them, happened to see

8 them.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [No Interpretation]

10 A. Yes, there were attempts of that kind to target that house. But

11 the house was -- the premises were more or less secure because there were

12 three concrete levels. It's a three-storey house, so these three concrete

13 layers protected the bullets from coming into the cellar, entering the

14 cellar, which is where the people were, the civilians.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] All right. Now quickly, please.

16 MS. LOUKAS: There's no interpretation of the last question that

17 Mr. -- that Judge El Mahdi asked.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I saw that. I was just about to interfere. The

19 last question you put to the witness has been answered, but the question

20 as such has not been translated into English. I remember that the last

21 words were "a votre avis."

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. My question was this: It

23 had to do with the possibility of targeting people who were below ground

24 by attacking the building itself, or rather something along those lines.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think the question has been answered.

Page 7914

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Now, very quickly, please,

2 during the bus incident, do you remember whether there was an exchange of

3 gunfire at all? Not from the bus, but in the surrounding area?

4 A. No, there was no firing, no exchange of gunfire or shooting around

5 the bus, just the direct shots and shooting at the bus by the Chetniks.

6 In that period of time and in the area where the massacre took

7 place, there was no fighting. There wasn't a war going on. The Serbs and

8 Muslims lived quietly there, and the road separated those two areas, the

9 area inhabited by the Serbs and the area inhabited by the Muslims. So

10 they weren't in conflict. There wasn't a situation of conflict. There

11 was no shooting or fighting in that particular area.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But in your opinion, you had some

13 notions of military matters and Territorial Defence, some things like

14 that. In your opinion, wasn't there the possibility of shooting if the

15 aim was to liquidate you?

16 A. [No Interpretation]

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Do you have an explanation why,

18 why they targeted the bus and not the individuals? If you have no

19 explanation for that, never mind.

20 A. Can you put that question a different way, please. Can you ask it

21 again. I'm not sure I understood it. I'm not sure I was able to follow

22 your question. Could you repeat, please.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, the simplest thing would

24 have been to have you step down from the bus, and then to liquidate you

25 that way, to shoot you that way, once you were outside, if that was the

Page 7915

1 object, to target you personally, rather than shooting at a bus, at a

2 whole bus. Wouldn't that have been simpler?

3 A. Thank you. I understand the question now. My personal opinion

4 about all that is that we were not supposed to be liquidated at that

5 particular spot because we were probably supposed to have been taken to

6 Pale or Sokolac, and then executed there. And then there would have been

7 no witnesses to come in here today and testify to the events that took

8 place on the 14th of June 1992.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jahic, I've only one very short question to you.

12 Did you ever hear any information about two of the persons not belonging

13 to your ethnicity being killed at that same event? Whether it would be

14 those escorting the bus, as you told us, or anyone else?

15 A. People who were escorts or of other -- from other ethnicities,

16 they were not killed then. There were 48 killed persons from Ahatovici,

17 and let me repeat under oath, having taken the solemn declaration and of

18 sound mind, they were killed by people from the escort, the Chetniks that

19 had brought them from Rajlovac, in fact. And I'm on the right road

20 because some security services are on the right path to learning who the

21 perpetrators were and learning their identity so that one day they, too,

22 could be brought into this court of law.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jahic, this concludes your testimony in this

24 Court, unless one of the parties would have a need to put additional

25 questions triggered by the questions by the Bench.

Page 7916

1 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honours, no questions triggered by

2 Your Honours' questions on the part of the Defence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes your testimony, Mr. Jahic.

4 You've answered the questions put by both parties to you, and the

5 questions put by the Bench. It did not remain unnoticed that you are

6 taken back to events and experiences that must have been very emotional

7 for you. The Chamber is grateful that you came, that you testified, and

8 wish you a safe trip home again.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Jahic out of

11 the courtroom.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any procedural issues at this moment? I do

14 understand, I have to reread the transcript, Ms. Loukas. Was it your

15 position that the supplemental information would not allow you to

16 cross-examine the witness, or not even to start the cross-examination of

17 the witness? I have to compare the original statement with the

18 supplemental information sheet the Chamber received this morning.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. My view is that the additional

20 information requires further investigation, certainly not the sort of

21 investigation, Your Honour, that can be conducted overnight firstly.

22 Secondly, as I understand it, the evidence of this next witness is

23 scheduled to take, I think, four hours, which would in any event take up

24 all the time tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's to be regretted that we could not finish

Page 7917

1 this week with these two witnesses. I spent already enough time in

2 addressing the parties in increasing the focus on the most important

3 elements of the testimony. I'll not repeat that again, but I hope that

4 the parties will keep that in the back of their mind.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I must say from my perspective, I do

6 agree with the indication that Your Honour's given, but it does take two

7 to tango.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said I don't want to elaborate on it any

9 more, except to say I thought the message was clear enough.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: If the interpreters could still assist us, then we'll

12 try to deal with the exhibits right away, and then adjourn for the day.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P367, photograph of old iron and cisterns.

14 P368, black and white photocopy of photograph of witness showing the

15 interior of hangar where he was detained. P369, CD containing intercepted

16 telephone conversations. P369A and P369A.1, transcript of P369 and

17 English translation. P369B and P369B.1, transcript of P369, 08/06/1992.

18 P369C and P369C.1, transcript of P369, 15 June 1992. P370, CD containing

19 four videoclips. And P370A and P370A.1, transcripts of P370.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there are no objections, they are admitted

21 into evidence with this addition: That P368, the short description should

22 be black and white photocopy of a photograph of a person standing at the

23 entrance of a hangar, which is the neutral description of what we can see

24 on the photograph.

25 I'd like to thank the interpreters again for their patience, and

Page 7918

1 the same for the technicians. We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00,

2 Courtroom I, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, Courtroom I.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of

5 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.