Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7919

1 Wednesday, 3 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we ask the Prosecution to call its next witness, I do

11 understand that there is an issue of scheduling for next week for 92 bis

12 witness.

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I had mentioned that to Mr. Acquaviva

14 yesterday. I think we're going to have some extra time next week. We

15 have two witnesses scheduled. Their projected time was 10 and a half

16 hours but I think they're going to be much less than that on direct. And

17 because the following week is a week that we're not sitting, I wasn't sure

18 we could bring in a full witness, but we have some 92 bis matters pending

19 and if the Court were going to direct one of those witnesses to come we

20 might be able to get them in. Again, although that puts some burden on

21 Mr. Stewart, who I think is going to be the only Defence counsel here next

22 week.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. That is the situation. Next week

25 Mr. Stewart will be in court. I won't be. I'm taking some time out

Page 7920

1 because even Defence lawyers need a break now and then and have some human

2 rights. So, Your Honour, that is the situation. Mr. Stewart will be

3 dealing with the witnesses next week.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you think that Mr. Stewart could do -- have

5 you communicated this? We do know which witness Mr. Hannis had in mind.

6 MS. LOUKAS: I don't.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You don't.

8 MS. LOUKAS: That has not been communicated to me. And at this

9 stage, as I understand it, there are two witnesses scheduled and I'm not

10 entirely certain who the witnesses are that Mr. Hannis would propose to

11 call in addition to those two witnesses next week and what the number of

12 them is.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Couldn't we then -- could the Chamber hear from

14 the parties after the first break so that you communicate that. Because I

15 do understand that it's a 92 bis witness on which no decision yet has been

16 taken by the Chamber. Is that correct, Mr. Hannis?

17 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. However, that's one

18 which indicated we thought it would be appropriate for him to come for

19 cross and the Defence agreed with that, I believe. It's a protected

20 witness, K629.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I also do understand, therefore, that the

22 Defence agrees that it's a witness who would qualify for 92 bis, apart

23 from the need to call him for cross-examination.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.


Page 7921

1 MS. LOUKAS: There's just one further outstanding matter from

2 yesterday, Your Honour, and we can do that again just after the next

3 break, perhaps, and that is that in terms of the exhibits from yesterday,

4 there's just the tendering on the part of the Defence of the statement

5 from 1993, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, we can deal with that. We could do it

7 right away.

8 MR. HANNIS: We have no objection to it, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I'm not entirely certain that we

11 have sufficient copies. The number of copies we have at the moment is, I

12 think, three.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We don't have to go through them at this moment.

14 They're just there for admission into evidence.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore, we could give a decision.

17 Madam Registrar, that would be number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D31.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's the 1993 statement of the previous witness.

20 It's admitted into evidence and we'll receive then sufficient copies soon.

21 Then, Ms. Loukas, you're invited to seek contact with Mr. Stewart

22 so that we can give a final decision on the 92 bis witness to be called

23 for next week.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. And I'll do that during the

25 next break.

Page 7922

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine.

2 Then, Mr. Gaynor, is it you who will examine the next witness?

3 MR. GAYNOR: That's right. We're ready to begin with that,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort

6 Mr. Mujkic into the courtroom, because that's the witness I expect you to

7 call.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mujkic. Before you give evidence

10 in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

11 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

12 nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration

13 of which the text is handed out to you now by Madam Usher.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mujkic. Please be seated.

19 Mr. Mujkic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Gaynor, counsel for the

20 Prosecution.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

22 Examined by Mr. Gaynor:

23 Q. Could you state your full name, please.

24 A. Ramiz Mujkic.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Mujkic, I'm going to read out a short description about

Page 7923

1 your background, and then I'd be grateful if you could confirm with a

2 simple yes or no that that description is correct.

3 You are a Bosnian Muslim and you were born in 1948. You are from

4 the village of Ahatovici.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What made you hesitate, Mr. Mujkic?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean, hesitate?

8 JUDGE ORIE: I saw that you were about to correct something.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My date of birth isn't the correct

10 one, because it said 49, the person said 1949, and I was born in 1948.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It appears in our translation as 1948, so we

12 all agree that it's 1948.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

14 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, sir.

15 Q. You worked as an electrical mechanic at the JNA barracks in Butile

16 from 1967 until 1992, apart from a break in the late 1960s for military

17 service. You are married, you have a daughter, and you have some

18 grandchildren. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, if you could -- if the first witness could be shown to the

21 exhibit, please?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we show the first exhibit to the witness rather

23 than the other way around?

24 MR. GAYNOR: Absolutely, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution Exhibit number P371.

Page 7924












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Page 7925


2 Q. Now, sir, you see there to your left a map which on with placed

3 some red stickers. Is that a copy of you -- of a map which you prepared

4 with my assistance on Monday?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that your signature and the date at the bottom?

7 A. Yes, I did sign this.

8 Q. Did you place those stickers there yourself?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did you then assist in the preparation of a legend to that

11 map, which is about to be shown to you now?

12 A. Yes, because I signed that too.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mujkic. Now, you lived in the village of Ahatovici

14 until late May/early June 1992. What is the ethnic composition of

15 Ahatovici?

16 A. The village of Ahatovici is inhabited by 90 per cent Muslim

17 population.

18 Q. You worked at the Butile barracks. Is that the barracks marked as

19 number 11 on the map?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the village of Ahatovici is under the stickers marked 3, 4,

22 and 5; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, prior to April 1992, what kind of things were stored at

25 Butile barracks?

Page 7926

1 A. The Butile barracks was the largest warehouse of the central

2 military district, that is to say the Bosnian district, as it was

3 called - the seventh, not central; sorry - 7th military district, and it

4 was a warehouse of all military equipment for soldiers, footwear,

5 clothing, uniforms, belts, and that kind of thing.

6 Q. And after April --

7 A. And I haven't finished. Let me just describe the Butile barracks

8 fully. There was also a bakery there which supplied the whole of the

9 Sarajevo region of barracks with bread, and also it was the main centre

10 for repairing wooden furniture, doing carpentry, the production of

11 footwear, a shoe factory.

12 Q. Mr. Mujkic, that's sufficient for that question. Now, moving to

13 the period after April 1992, what was stored at the barracks?

14 A. Well, there were far less goods there, because the goods were

15 pulled out and transported elsewhere, and civilian towing trucks with

16 Cacak and Montenegrin number plates -- Cacak -- from Serbia -- number

17 plates would come in from Serbia, and the goods were loaded up without any

18 papers and they would be driven off. And I omitted to say that in the

19 barracks, but you can -- and you can prove this, there were two warehouses

20 of medicines, so they were medical corps warehouses as well for the

21 military hospital and supplies to all the other hospitals in Sarajevo,

22 military ones. And those medicines were taken off first, to Pale.

23 Q. Was there any decrease or increase in the amount of military

24 weaponry and other military equipment around the April 1992 mark?

25 A. I emphasised that it was a quartermaster's storehouse, that is to

Page 7927

1 say there were no weapons except the M-48 rifle, the old type of rifle,

2 which belonged to the TO, or rather the civil defence, civilian

3 protection, and they were taken away first, then the medicines, then the

4 tins and canned goods because food was stored there. There were

5 flours -- there was flour, tins of all kinds, cooking oil, and so on.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mujkic. Now, in response to my questions, I'd just

7 like to request that you give fairly brief responses because we're fairly

8 pressed for time, but I certainly appreciate all your assistance. On the

9 question of arming, could you tell me, around the -- we're talking about

10 the period around April 1992. Could you tell the Court to what extent the

11 Muslim villagers of Ahatovici were armed at that time.

12 A. The villagers of Ahatovici were armed with hunting weapons. There

13 were two hunting carbines. They were people who were hunters and so they

14 had carbines for hunting. And also 15 people went to Visoko and at the

15 end of April, and even the beginning of May, perhaps, 12 people came and

16 they were exchanged at Pale from Bratunac and they stayed in Ahatovici.

17 So they brought weapons with them. I don't know whether there was a

18 commission for the reception of those weapons, but anyway, the weapons

19 were handed out, issued out.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please approach the

21 microphones. Thank you.


23 Q. Sir, just concentrating now on the Serb neighbours, your Serb

24 neighbours and the Serb civilians around there: To what extent were they

25 armed in the period of April and May 1992?

Page 7928

1 A. Already at that time, they had all the weapons and equipment they

2 needed to go to war. Because already in the month of February, or rather,

3 the beginning of February, the trucks were bringing in weapons and

4 distributing them to the Serb population.

5 Q. Now, you referred there to trucks bringing in weapons. Could you

6 describe a little more as to why -- what made you believe that trucks were

7 bringing weapons.

8 A. I took the oath to tell the truth here and everything that I'm

9 going to say is indeed the truth. And I personally was present when the

10 weapons were being unloaded in the house of Steva Petricevic, my

11 neighbour, which is about 300 metres from my own hours, as the crow flies.

12 Q. And what -- from what were those weapons being unloaded?

13 A. Well, it's like this: I worked for 24 years with the army, so I

14 was well acquainted with the type of trucks and the TAM truck, a dajc as

15 it was called, had characteristic features. It had a special diesel motor

16 which let off a particular sound and you can differentiate it from the

17 other types of motors and engines with different sounds. This dajc. So I

18 could recognise a dajc by the power of its motor and they were taking the

19 byroads, not the main roads. It was a macadamised roads with no

20 headlights on. And I had my doubts. I wondered why this vehicle was

21 coming in without its lights on in February when it was getting dark and

22 so on. And between my house and Steva's house, there are two houses in

23 between, all the rest was open space, and I hid behind Steva's -- Steva

24 Petricevic's shed and I was 20 metres away and was able to see them

25 unloading crates from this military vehicle. But to my astonishment,

Page 7929

1 there was no lights in Steva Petricevic's house at all, no lights were on

2 there. So everything was being done in the dark. The weight of the

3 crates, and as I knew the type of vehicle used for transport and the type

4 of crate that was being used, I assumed what kind of weapons they were.

5 So that's how I know.

6 Q. What is the ethnicity of Steva Petricevic?

7 A. He's a Serb.

8 Q. And what date -- you referred earlier to February, but could you

9 put a date on this specific incident?

10 A. That was the beginning of February, but please believe me when I

11 say that I never, ever dreamt that I would be here giving testimony. Had

12 I known, I would have kept a diary. But as I say, I didn't take anything

13 from home, any documents, photographs, anything like that, because

14 everything's being destroyed in a fire and it's been 12 years since then.

15 MR. GAYNOR: I would request that the witness be shown the next

16 exhibit.



19 Q. Now, this exhibit is headed "Rajlovac municipality Crisis Staff."

20 The date on the English translation is the 1st of April, 1992. Now, sir,

21 could you look at the date on that document and just tell me what date it

22 appears to be dated, to your eyes?

23 A. It says here 09/04, which means the 9th of April, 1992.

24 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I just note that that's a correction to

25 the English translation.

Page 7930












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Page 7931

1 Q. Sir, I'd like to focus your attention on paragraph 3 of that

2 document. It says: "One policeman and two TO members are to be at the

3 checkpoint towards the distribution centre 24 hours a day to control all

4 vehicles and people moving in that direction. The Rajlovac platoon

5 commander and the commander of the [illegible word] unit are hereby placed

6 in charge in cooperation with the police commander."

7 Sir, looking at paragraph 3, what does that -- what, if anything,

8 does that refer to?

9 A. They were the first barricades in our area, and that barricade was

10 erected up at the bridge across the Bosna River in the Reljevo settlement.

11 Which leads from Rajlovac, across the bridge you go from Rajlovac, turn

12 left towards the Ahatovici settlement and the road was a byroad for us

13 because the main road, the main communication line with the city of

14 Sarajevo was going past the Butile barracks, towards Stup.

15 Q. Now, if you look at the map there on your left, is that the bridge

16 marked at number 12?

17 A. This refers to the bridge, which is marked. Just a moment,

18 please. It's not marked, but it is next to number 7, across the river,

19 Bosna, and up to Reljevo. But we didn't mark it here because I wasn't

20 asked to do so.

21 Q. Thank you for that clarification.

22 Who used that bridge in April 1992?

23 A. Exclusively the Serb population.

24 Q. How do you know that it was exclusively the Serb population?

25 A. Because we were told, or rather, a couple of people who wanted to

Page 7932

1 go that way were sent back, and they said that no balijas could pass by

2 that way any more.

3 Q. When you say "they said," who do you refer to there?

4 A. The people from the Serb units, Serb formations. Quite simply,

5 the Serbs who were engaged there. My next-door neighbour, Nedzo Bujak,

6 for example, was the first to man the barricade at the Reljevo bridge and

7 his house is just 150 metres away from my house. Not metres. I'm sorry.

8 Steps. 150 steps from my house. And he said: Don't go down there. I'm

9 not allowed to say anything, but you won't be allowed to pass, you lot.

10 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request that the witness be shown the next

11 exhibit, please.



14 Q. Now, this document is headed "Srpska Republika, Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, Serb Municipality Vogosca, Information Service." It's dated

16 11th May 1992 and bears a stamp reading "Srpska Republika, Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina," with a reference number, a date, and the word Sarajevo.

18 Sir, I'd like to focus your attention to the fifth paragraph in

19 your version, and I'm going to read that now. It says: "In the night of

20 9th May, the Green Berets and HOS launched an attack on Rajlovac barracks,

21 on which occasion they also burnt down Sokolje."

22 Sir, do you remember where you were on the 9th of May?

23 A. Yes. Well, I'll start with the 9th of May, because on that day, I

24 fled from Butile. Actually, as an electrician in charge of appliances

25 with the focus on the bakery, because bread was needed every day.

Page 7933

1 Reservists were giving me funny looks, but nobody ever said anything to

2 me. When I came to the barracks, the situation was not as usual. Nobody

3 spoke to anyone. There seemed to be some kind of commotion. I was on my

4 own with a baker who was making the bread. I was only in charge of the

5 technical equipment. I said: What is this? And he said: Ramiz,

6 something seems to be wrong today.

7 Soon after that, a soldier came and he said Colonel Nikola Suput

8 wants to see you. I went with him downstairs and he said: Here's this

9 lieutenant. And there was this lieutenant who was already standing there.

10 And he said: Go with him. Wear a uniform. Take a weapon. You'll be

11 issued a weapon. And don't go home any more.

12 I was surprised, and I said: Colonel, I've been looking forward

13 to this for such a long time. Thank goodness I've lived to see this day.

14 And he said: Well, yes, you have.

15 So then I was supposed to leave all my tools and to change my blue

16 work clothes. And they had just come to Butile, whereas I worked there

17 for 24 years and I knew where every little tree was.

18 I went to the bakery building, which was about 200 metres away

19 from the headquarters where we were, and that is near the woods. Butile

20 is a very big area, and there are a lot of woods. I didn't even take off

21 that blue coat. I crossed the wires, because there were mines around the

22 fence of the barracks. And I walked through the meadows and I walked to

23 my house. And my house is two kilometres away from the barracks. But I

24 think that it took me only five minutes to cross these two kilometres. So

25 that's the day I spent.

Page 7934

1 Around 9.00 in the evening, the first shells started from our

2 area, or rather, from Dobrosevici, an area called Jaruge, which is a small

3 elevation. And then the river Bosna is down in the valley and then there

4 is another hill too, which can be seen with the naked eye. Cannons started

5 shooting at Sokolje. We looked at this in surprise, because this was a

6 baptism of fire. We had never seen anything like that. People were

7 counting shells. Some counted 500, others counted 600. These are only

8 the tracers that we managed to see. Everybody did his own counting, so

9 the figures never really tallied.

10 So I was at home on the 9th of May in the evening. Since then, I

11 never went to the Butile barracks.

12 Q. What is the ethnicity of -- the predominant ethnicity, I should

13 say, of the village of Sokolje?

14 A. 99 per cent Muslim.

15 Q. And what comment, if any, do you have about the sentence which

16 there is allegedly an attack by Green Berets and HOS on Rajlovac and

17 subsequently they burnt down Sokolje? Do you have any comment about that?

18 A. Yes. This was propaganda, Serb propaganda. Whenever something

19 was supposed to happen, the Green Berets were mentioned and the HOS. The

20 HOS are Croatian forces of the Republic of Croatia, that is. So there was

21 a certain criterion involved that these people were their enemies, their

22 mortal enemies. And the Green Berets were the entire Muslim population,

23 in their opinion, that was supposed to be killed. So everything they did,

24 they ascribed to the HOS and the Green Berets. Actually, the truth is

25 that they attacked, that the Serb forces attacked Sokolje on the 9th of

Page 7935

1 May, 1992.

2 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request that the witness be shown the next

3 exhibit. This exhibit is already in evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Grain, I'm trying to find Sokolje on the map. Is

5 it somewhere or --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be seen, but it doesn't say

7 Sokolje. That's not what's written there. It's the closest settlement to

8 Mr. Krajisnik's house. It is actually only two or three hundred metres

9 away from his house.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you point at it at the map on the pointer.

11 Could we have that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These houses here. Then there's

13 Brijesce, this other neighbourhood. This was Serb land that had been sold

14 to Muslims. And this entire area had a Muslim population, 90 per cent of

15 the population was Muslim.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness pointed at what seems to be houses

17 just south of the word "Rajlovac." And left of the word Brijesce. Please

18 proceed.

19 MR. GAYNOR: I request that the witness be shown the next exhibit.

20 The next exhibit already bears an exhibit number, which I'll read out now.

21 64A, footnote binder 24, 13-077.A.

22 Q. Now, as you can see, sir, this is a decree on the promulgation of

23 the law on the establishment of Rajlovac municipality, with headquarters

24 in Rajlovac. The law was adopted by the Assembly of the Serbian People in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina at its session on the 11th of May, 1992. Below that

Page 7936












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Page 7937

1 appear the words "president of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic,

2 Dr. Radovan Karadzic." And at the end of the document, after article 4,

3 appear the words "president of the Assembly of Serbian People, Momcilo

4 Krajisnik."

5 Sir, I'd like for address your attention to paragraph 2,

6 specifically, which says: "The Sarajevo Rajlovac municipality encompasses

7 the following populated areas." It goes on to list a number of areas,

8 which I won't read out now. But could you explain to Their Honours which,

9 if any, of those areas contains a substantial Muslim population.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I don't know that the term "substantial"

11 will be of great assistance to the Trial Chamber.

12 MR. GAYNOR: I'll withdraw the word "substantial," Your Honour.

13 Q. Sir, could you explain which of those settlements contains

14 Muslims.

15 A. I'll take things in the right order. Bojnik is a neighbourhood

16 where one third of the population was Muslim, one third Croat, and one

17 third Serb. If you look at the entire area, the Croats were a minority,

18 but here they were -- they're in equal numbers. Dobrosevici, one quarter,

19 because Dobrosevici is almost 70 per cent Serb populated. Then Ahatovici,

20 85 to 90 per cent Muslim. This neighbourhood called Crkotina is a name

21 I'm not familiar with. There is no neighbourhood with that name there.

22 Maybe it's Crnotina. That is just a cadastre name from the

23 Austro-Hungarian days. This entire area could then be called Crnotina,

24 but there is no such thing as Crkotina. Reljevo was 99 per cent Serb,

25 because there were only two Muslim houses and two Croat houses of Dufek.

Page 7938

1 Rjecica. One Croat houses, the rest were Serbs. Perivoj, Serbs. I am

2 not aware of any Muslims who were there. Reljevo and Perivoj is the same

3 neighbourhood. There's only a railroad splitting it up. Zabrdje.

4 Zabrdje has a majority Serb population. Quite a bit of the land had been

5 sold, though. So there were some Muslims there too. I cannot give you

6 the exact ratio. Smiljevi, also Serb. Rajlovac, also Serb. Although

7 Rajlovac had the smallest population of all, because this is an industrial

8 centre and the barracks took up a great deal of the land too. Brijesce.

9 Now, that is Muslim-populated. The street of the 25th of May, Padina

10 [phoen] Brijesce, Brijesce Brdo rather, that was the Serb population.

11 Bacici, the Serb population was there again. But this is an agriculture

12 complex, so there weren't that many people to begin with. Bacici and

13 Halilovici. I know about that because there's a barracks in Halilovici.

14 This is a different barracks. Then there were ten houses there, Djokici,

15 not more than that. Then Dolac and Zuc. That is where the Serb

16 population had a majority.

17 Q. Sir, I'd like to take you now to the 29th of May, 1992. Where

18 were you on that day?

19 A. On the 29th of May, 1992, on that fateful day, I was at home. In

20 the morning I was in the vegetable garden digging potatoes. I live in a

21 village, basically, so I have my own plot of land. It belonged to my

22 forefathers. However, it started to rain, so my wife and I went home. We

23 took a shower, we had some lunch. It kept raining. And then around 3.15

24 or 3.20 p.m. - please don't take my word for every little minute - the

25 first shell fell in our area. This was out of the blue, because we

Page 7939

1 certainly did not expect any such thing. This is the day when the

2 shelling began, the shelling of Ahatovici, which went on for all of four

3 days. It stopped all of a sudden, as if someone had issued an order to

4 stop and not a single shell fell after that.

5 Q. Sir, could you see where the shells were coming from?

6 A. Well, I'll tell you something that is the actual truth. We had

7 not been prepared for a war or any kind of war option. So it seems

8 tragicomical, but we went to the hills to see who was shooting and who was

9 firing from where. We did not realise that we were the target. We were

10 not seeking shelters or anything. All of this was spontaneous. Everybody

11 was running around to see where the shooting was coming from. We did not

12 think that this would go on for four days. We thought that this was just

13 a few random shells and we were wondering where they were coming from.

14 One hundred metres from my house there is a hillock from which Rajlovac

15 can be seen quite clearly. There were two tanks, and also some parapets.

16 And shells were falling, but they couldn't actually hit our houses. Other

17 shells were coming from the Butile barracks. It's a place called Tunje,

18 actually. So towards Ahatovici, about 500 metres away, that is that area.

19 And the tank could actually fire at Ahatovici.

20 Other shells were coming from the surrounding hills. Mortars had

21 already been located there. So the entire neighbourhood was being hit by

22 shells. Tanks were firing at the higher areas, and from Butile, fire was

23 coming at the lower areas. But this is not a plain. There are these

24 small hills, so they cannot target, say, my house, because of the hills.

25 But the mortars were placed on the surrounding hills and they were hitting

Page 7940

1 one house after the other. So actually, every house was targeted by

2 shells. I'm going to mention that my house was hit by four shells, four

3 mortar shells, to be precise, not tank shells, because my house could not

4 be targeted from any one of the tanks that were there.

5 Q. Now, you say you saw mortars and tanks. Did you see any personnel

6 at those mortars and tanks?

7 A. Sir, a tank does not fire from a 50-metre distance, but from a

8 5-kilometre distance. So this is not theoretically possible. The mortars

9 were near the Serb houses, because Ahatovici has a population that is

10 primarily Muslim, 90 per cent. And the Serbs were on the outskirts of

11 Ahatovici, near the woods. And it's hilly, too, in that area.

12 So I could not see through the woods who was firing. And of

13 course, the place where the mortar was, was camouflaged, and there was no

14 theoretical possibility of seeing it or realising who was doing the actual

15 shooting.

16 Q. From the moment the firing began on the 29th of May until you left

17 the village, how -- how frequent was the firing?

18 A. I'll tell you a joke now. We were focussed on basements. Houses

19 had basements. So we sought shelter in these basements. We'd sit there,

20 day in, day out. Do you realise that this went on all the time, this

21 shelling? And a relative of mine said, by way of a joke: What is this?

22 They didn't even have a cigarette break. They're not even taking a

23 cigarette break.

24 That was his point. Because this went on all the time, as if they

25 didn't even take a cigarette break.

Page 7941

1 Q. When did you personally leave the village of Ahatovici?

2 A. In this situation, when it was impossible to leave the shelter,

3 during the night of the 31st of May, we made a decision. My house is at

4 the beginning of Ahatovici, and the Serb houses are right across the road.

5 So there were rifles there and shells, and we decided to withdraw to the

6 centre of Ahatovici, four or five hundred metres towards the centre.

7 Women, children, we were all walking in small groups of two or three. So

8 if a shell would fall, it wouldn't hit a large group of people. We were

9 learning what to do in this situation along the way.

10 We came to Fikret Mujkic's house, which is in the centre of

11 Ahatovici, and it's in a small valley, so a rifle could not hit us there.

12 There were machine-guns too, but then you could tell by then where you can

13 go and where you cannot go. We found another relative of ours there, who

14 had withdrawn from the outskirts. The point was that nobody could get out

15 of Ahatovici. So it was the outskirts that were shelled the most heavily.

16 Of course, a few shells fell into the centre too, but not as much as the

17 outskirts.

18 There were about 200 of us there: Women, children, old men, and

19 also some of us who were of military age. I admit that I did have a

20 weapon.

21 Then Fikret Mujkic walked up to me. He was a member of the Crisis

22 Staff. And he said: Ramiz, go to Brzeljak. That's on the top of

23 Ahatovici. Meho Novalija, he's a hunter, he is familiar with the area.

24 Go towards Bioca from Visoko, a platoon of soldiers had set out to help us

25 withdraw. I said, since he's younger than I am, I said: Fikro, this is a

Page 7942












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Page 7943

1 question of life and death. So is this something that you concocted or is

2 this a decision of the Crisis Staff? And he said: Ramiz, this is a

3 decision. It's not something that simply came out of my head. I didn't

4 even say goodbye to my wife or daughter. I simply started walking towards

5 Meho Novalija's house, or actually the place where he told me that Meho

6 Novalija would be. I went up there, I found a young man, and I asked him

7 where Meho was, and he said: Five minutes ago they went to Bioca so

8 you'll catch up with them, but watch out; they are hitting the area you

9 have to go through. Shells are falling there.

10 I went that way. There were a few shells. But the shell would

11 hit the area a bit above me, so I was not wounded. And then I came to the

12 woods.

13 About one kilometre is the distance between that house and the

14 woods. And I heard voices, and I realise that it was Meho Novalija that

15 is going there to meet the people from Visoko. Perhaps it's already the

16 people from Visoko who got there, which really made me feel better.

17 Q. If I can interrupt for a moment. You said that you set out

18 towards Bioca. Did you in fact get to Bioca?

19 A. Not that evening.

20 Q. I'd just like to bring you forward to the time that you arrived in

21 Bioca. What date was that?

22 A. I arrived in Bioca on the 1st of June, around 10.00. You

23 interrupted me at the key moment. The voices I heard then were not Meho

24 Novalija's voice or the voices of the people from Visoko. These were

25 voices of the Serb soldiers going from Ilijas. And they had already

Page 7944

1 torched Bioca, taken the people to the school in Bioca. I was not aware

2 of that. None of us were aware of that because there was no communication

3 with Bioca and nobody managed to get out, due to the shelling. I simply

4 hid in the bushes, and then I realised that these were Serb soldiers, not

5 our people. No way. According to the way they spoke and the swearwords

6 they used, I realised that it was the Serb army. And around 9.00 in the

7 morning, I came to the house of Sehic "Iso" Ismet. His nickname is Iso.

8 But the house was open, the cattle were walking about, yard. So Bioca had

9 already fallen. So they had already taken care of Bioca.

10 And then, instead of the people from Visoko coming to help us, it

11 was Serb forces that were moving in.

12 Q. Now, when you say you arrived in Bioca, is that Gornja Bioca or

13 Donja Bioca?

14 A. Gornja Bioca. Donja Bioca is much lower than that. I went there

15 only twice in my entire life.

16 Q. And just on the map, which is on your left there, due west of

17 Svrake - excuse me my pronunciation - is a settlement "G. Bioca." Is that

18 the place you're talking about now?

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness. I'm

20 sorry.


22 Q. Now, if you look due west, due south of that, sir, you see G.

23 Bioca?

24 A. Oh, G. Bioca. Yes. Gornja Bioca, yes. On the same line where

25 Svrake is. Gornja and Donja Bioca are very far away from each other.

Page 7945

1 This is close to the town of Ilijas, you see.

2 Q. Thank you. Sir, I want you to describe for the Court: On the

3 moment you arrived at Gornja Bioca, what did you see exactly?

4 A. Well, I arrived in Gornja Bioca and the first houses -- because

5 Gornja Bioca follows on from Ahatovici. They are just separated by road.

6 The Novi Grad and Ilijas municipalities are separated by road. So the

7 people in Gornja Bioca, and that was the road I would take if I was ever

8 to go walking, because I had some relatives in Gornja Bioca, in fact, so I

9 would go visiting, not very often, if truth be told, but anyway. So I did

10 know the houses. But when I arrived, all the doors had been pulled out,

11 and the cattle were walking around one of the houses belonging to Sehic.

12 And I know their nicknames. I don't know their full names. But anyway,

13 that house had burnt down. And it was clear to me that Bioca had been

14 taken control of and that there were no Muslim inhabitants there any more.

15 Q. What was the ethnicity of that village before this moment?

16 A. The village of Bioca was a Muslim village. There was one house

17 belonging to the Brankovic family, Vidoje and Djordje Brankovic, but it

18 was right up by the road, the road separating the Novi Grad municipality

19 and the Ilijas municipality. But the road fork, there's a fork in the

20 road, so on the right-hand side you go to Sekovici; on the left Durmici.

21 Sekovic and Durmici, the family houses of the Sekici family and Durmici

22 families.

23 Q. Now, sir, where was the Muslim population of Gornja Bioca?

24 A. The population of Gornja Bioca had been taken away to the school

25 in Donja Bioca.

Page 7946

1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. How do I know that? Because they brought me on the 22nd of August

3 to a mountain hut and I came across those people there. Most of them, or

4 90 per cent of the people, the detainees, the prisoners, were people from

5 Gornja and Donja Bioca. So that I knew from the stories they told. We

6 had enough time to talk to each other and I can guarantee that that's how

7 it was.

8 Q. Sir, the translation of what you said says mountain hut. On the

9 22nd of August, could you just repeat where you were brought.

10 A. On the 22nd of August, I was brought from the hospital, Zica

11 Blazuj, the Ilijas municipality to Planjina kuca, Planjina house in

12 Semizovac.

13 Q. Now, sir, you said that the population of Gornja Bioca had been

14 taken away to the school of Donja Bioca. Who took them away?

15 A. Sir, Your Honours, I can't say -- or rather, on the basis of their

16 stories and what they said, this was done by the Serb army, the Serbian

17 soldiers, the units of the Ilijas municipality, in fact. I can't comment.

18 I can't guarantee. I didn't see it myself. But what I did see and I did

19 happen to meet those Serb soldiers who had already cleared Bioca and moved

20 towards Ahatovici. So there was an order to this. I didn't see that

21 actually happen, but judging by what they said, yes, because the 3rd unit

22 wasn't there, the one that could have done that.

23 Q. On what date did you arrive back in Ahatovici?

24 A. I returned to Ahatovici on the 3rd of June, 1992, in the early

25 morning, at dawn. Because I wasn't able to return before that, since

Page 7947

1 there was fighting going on from the north, from the direction of Bioca

2 towards Ahatovici, and I was to their rear, behind their backs. I didn't

3 know that I would ever be faced with a situation of that kind and I wasn't

4 able to break through and reach Ahatovici.

5 Q. Now, when you arrived back to Ahatovici on the 3rd of June, 1992,

6 what did you see in the village?

7 A. I saw chaos. I saw sadness. I saw houses on fire because the

8 houses were burnt systematically. Every older house that had this

9 four-cornered roof, I don't know how to explain this, but it's a typical

10 type of roof for that house, for Muslim houses. They were constructed

11 that way. They were on fire. The newer houses were not set fire to

12 because they were later used to put up the Serb population and the

13 people -- Serbs expelled from other parts of the country, who had come in

14 from other parts of the country. But it was a terrible, terrible sight to

15 behold, horrendous.

16 Q. Was there a mosque in the village of Ahatovici?

17 A. Yes. Yes. In the village of Ahatovici, in 1969, a mosque was

18 erected and during Tito's time, all the necessary papers for constructing

19 it were obtained. It was our symbol and a fulcrum. And anyway, you

20 turned, you would be going towards and facing the mosque.

21 Q. What state was the mosque in when you got back to the village on

22 the 3rd of June?

23 A. It was there. It hadn't been blown up then. On the 3rd of June,

24 in the evening, or rather, on the 3rd of June, in the morning, I came

25 across a wounded young man and I spent the whole day sitting in a bush,

Page 7948












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Page 7949

1 behind a bush with him. And when it was night-time, I put him out into

2 the woods. Actually, it's my own wood and forest belonging to my

3 forefathers. And I would often go there. So I knew my way about. I

4 didn't have to have any light or anything like that. So I pulled him out

5 into the woods and the mosque was still standing then.

6 Q. And you said in answer to my earlier question, you said it hadn't

7 been blown up then. When had it -- when was it blown up?

8 A. On the 3rd, in the evening, as I said, we reached the forest. We

9 set up a tent on the 4th. The young man was wounded in his heel. He

10 wasn't able to move around. He cried. It was painful. I didn't have any

11 medicines to give him, just some herbs that I put on the wound. And I set

12 up this makeshift tent. But sometime towards the afternoon, we heard a

13 very strong, loud explosion, and as we knew that the war had already

14 started, we weren't able to know what that actually was. Never did it

15 enter my mind that that could have been the mosque being blown up.

16 Now, on the 6th of June, I left around noon. I went up to a hill

17 called Vis. And there's an open space there called Strahoc. But anyway,

18 it's a hill from which you can see the overall Gornji Mihaljevici,

19 Ahatovici settlements, parts of Dobrosevici, Kastela Velovac [phoen],

20 Kasima Butare [phoen], Ilidza, the airport, Butmir airport, the town of

21 Butmir, then towards the left Nedzarici, Oslobodjenja, and part of the Ali

22 Pasina Polje settlement. So it was a vantage point from which you could

23 see everything. It was an elevation and you could see right the way

24 around. So when I reached that point, on the 6th of June, I looked around

25 and the first thing that I did was to look around, and I noticed that

Page 7950

1 there was no mosque. I rubbed my eyes to see if I was seeing properly.

2 It still went there. In Butmir -- I looked towards Butmir and I saw the

3 mosque there, and Butmir is at least 15 to 20 kilometres as the crow

4 flies. It was a clear day, good visibility. I saw Butmir. I saw the

5 mosque there. Whereas in this way I couldn't see the mosque, which was

6 quite close to us, to me. And then I saw that the mosque must have been

7 blown up, and as dusk fell I went down to have a better look and found

8 what I found. Just one piece of concrete with the minaret still standing,

9 but everything else had been destroyed. There were bricks blown to all

10 four corners. Everything had been blown up. It had all been blown up.

11 Q. When you returned to --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


14 Q. When you returned to Ahatovici, where were the people? Where was

15 the population of the village?

16 A. All the locals of Ahatovici were in Rajlovac, put up in three

17 buildings, those buildings were never prisons but the Serb forces turned

18 them into prisons. They were the distribution centre of Rajlovac, that

19 premises, the cistern of Rajlovac, and a third building, the oxygen plant

20 of Rajlovac. Because there was a large restaurant there where these

21 people were put up.

22 Q. And when did you become aware that the Muslims had been detained?

23 A. Yes. The Muslim population. I apologise. Could you repeat that

24 population, please.

25 Q. When did you become aware that those Muslims were detained in

Page 7951

1 those specific locations?

2 A. Well, I had no communication, so I couldn't become aware of that

3 then. But after I arrived in Planjina kuca, the detainees told me about

4 that, from Gornja and Donja Bioca, because they were a labour platoon and

5 went to Vogosca, listened to the news, and sometimes we would be able to

6 watch television, albeit Serb programmes. And this was broadcast in the

7 news. So they told me about that and that's the first time that I heard

8 about the tragedy of the bus, the killings in the bus, and where the

9 people were, our people were. Up until then, I didn't know about that

10 because I wasn't able to communicate with anyone.

11 Q. And where was your wife detained?

12 A. My wife and daughter were detained in the distribution centre.

13 They were brought in by trucks, and they couldn't choose where to go.

14 They just went where they sent them.

15 Q. Is that the distribution centre marked as number 7 on your map,

16 to your left there, sir?

17 A. Yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. In which part of the distribution centre building did your wife

19 tell you that she and your daughter were detained?

20 A. The distribution centre was built on a flat piece of land, but

21 there is a metre or a metre and a half which is dug into the ground. So

22 we call it the basement. It wasn't right underground, but half

23 underground, half above ground. And the windows had some black paper

24 stuck on them so they couldn't look outside, but they could look towards

25 the east.

Page 7952

1 Q. And who occupied the rest of the distribution centre building?

2 A. I don't understand your question.

3 Q. You said that your wife was detained in the basement of the

4 building. Now, do you know if there was anyone in the rest of the

5 building?

6 A. It wasn't a small area, small room. It was a large premises. And

7 they were all in this big hall, big space.

8 Q. Did you see that building when you returned to Ahatovici in 1996?

9 A. Yes. In January 1996, I was put forward for a job and the mayor

10 agreed. I was a secretary of the local community of Dobrosevici. I was

11 appointed that when the time for reintegration arrived. And when we

12 entered on the 26th, I think it was, of February. I apologise if I got

13 the date wrong, because a lot of things are going on in my head. But

14 anyway, I was in the municipal authorities, our police force, to

15 reintegrate the area and to take on Rajlovac and the whole settlement,

16 which in the previous documents were mentioned as being a Serb

17 municipality. The Serb municipality of Rajlovac. This was reintegrated

18 into the Novi Grad municipality, because in fact before the war, that did

19 belong to the Novi Grad municipality. So in this distribution centre, the

20 distribution centre is where the ceremony took place. And when we

21 arrived, you could still see a heading which said the Serbian municipality

22 of Rajlovac. Our police force took that down and put the new board up for

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So that was an act of reintegration that I attended.

24 I attended this ceremony. And later on I was given an office in the same

25 building, up until August, when I was transferred to the Dobrosevici

Page 7953

1 school and when the conditions were ripe for me to move there.

2 Q. Now, after your wife and your daughter left the distribution

3 centre building, where -- where did they go then?

4 A. The man who had the papers, the documents, and who had a list of

5 the people brought in to Rajlovac, his name was Stojanovic Mile. And Mile

6 Stojanovic used to work in the barracks -- the Butile barracks at one

7 time. I knew him before he got employment there, because his father had

8 worked in the Butile barracks. And I was in his house very often, because

9 as an electrician, there was always something to be mended, the boiler or

10 the washing machine or something like that. So I knew him personally and

11 I knew his mother too. Vera, her name was. She would come into the

12 barracks from time to time. We would have picnics together, because the

13 Butile barracks was in a nice area of the countryside. So we would often

14 go off on picnics. So it wasn't just chance acquaintance. We knew each

15 other. He knew my wife too. And she said: Could you take me to the

16 Kisikana, the oxygen plant, because my mother's there, my mother-in-law's

17 there. They're old. And he said: Keka, my wife's name is Ismeta, but

18 her nickname is Keka, and everybody knows her as Keka. He said: I'll do

19 that for you, but I have to do something first. And not a lot of time

20 went by. That is to say he said he had to go and get a car. And he did

21 go and get a car and then my wife and daughter were transported --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mujkic, could you try to concentrate on the

23 questions first. If you're asked where they did then go, please first

24 tell us where they did go. And it might be that Mr. Gaynor is interested

25 to know who brought them there or by what way or by what transportation.

Page 7954












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 7955

1 So all the details Mr. Gaynor might have a certain interest in, some of

2 them, others are perhaps less relevant for him. I do understand that the

3 whole story for you is one, but we are under some time constraints. So

4 would you please very much focus on the question and details, wait and see

5 what Mr. Gaynor specifically would like to know. Yes? Thank you.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.


8 Q. Sir, just to confirm that after they left the DCL building, your

9 wife and daughter were brought to the oxygen plant known as Kisikana. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Now, who brought them - in very brief terms - from the DCL

13 building to Kisikana?

14 A. Well, Mile Stojanovic, to give you a short answer.

15 Q. And after they left the oxygen plant, where did they go then?

16 A. From the oxygen plant, they were exchanged with all the rest of

17 the population that was exchanged, and there were 513 persons, in actual

18 fact, on the 13th of June, 1992. And they were exchanged at a place

19 called Orica Pumpaoic [phoen], which was a checkpoint for this exchange

20 between Rajlovac and the city of Sarajevo.

21 Q. And if you could look to the map on your left. Is the oxygen

22 plant marked as number 9 on that map?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Sir, you've described what happened to your daughter and your

25 wife. What happened to your mother?

Page 7956

1 A. My mother was exchanged with that group.

2 Q. And could you tell us what happened to your sister?

3 A. My sister, my elder sister - we were four children, three sisters

4 and myself - so my eldest sister was exchanged the same day because she

5 lived in town. And she had come for the Bajram festival to visit us, to

6 visit her mother and us, with her 14-year-old son. And this eldest sister

7 of mine was exchanged. My younger sister and her entire family,

8 unfortunately, died. But she was not in Rajlovac. She died in Ahatovici.

9 And her mother and son were killed in the bus.

10 Q. Now, I just want to confirm. Was your sister who died, did she

11 attack -- did she die in the attack on Ahatovici?

12 A. I apologise. Don't mix my daughter up. It wasn't my daughter.

13 You said daughter. My daughter is still alive.

14 Q. Apologise, sir. I said sister, in the English language. Could

15 you just tell Their Honours whether your sister died in Ahatovici in the

16 attack on Ahatovici.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you referred to her daughter. Was she also killed in the

19 attack on Ahatovici?

20 A. Yes. She was the one -- one of the youngest people to have been

21 killed. She was just 15.

22 Q. Do you know whether any other persons under the age of 18 were

23 killed in Ahatovici?

24 A. I've just said that my sister's daughter, Elma Besic, was barely

25 15. And I can also tell you that in the bus, five or six young boys under

Page 7957

1 the age of 17 were also killed. So they weren't military able or recruits

2 or conscripts or anything like that. They were minors still.

3 Q. Just to go back to the killing at Ahatovici. Do you know

4 yourself, apart from your daughter's sister, whether any other of the

5 persons who were killed were aged under 18?

6 A. Not daughter's sister. Don't keep mentioning my daughter, please.

7 Q. I do apologise, sir. Your sister's daughter.

8 A. As to the underage people, no. They were in the shelters. They

9 were not armed and not exposed to shooting. And so there weren't any

10 killed minors, apart from my sister's daughter.

11 Q. Now, when you returned to the village of Ahatovici in early June

12 1992, did you see any graves anywhere?

13 A. You mean when I first arrived in Ahatovici or later? I came to

14 Ahatovici two months, five days after being in the forest. I would come

15 in just when it was raining. I wasn't able to go in other than that,

16 because they would have seen my footsteps, traces of my footprints. My

17 wife is from Ahatovici and my in-laws had a house in Ahatovici. So I

18 would come to those houses to have a change of clothing, to look for food.

19 I went into Ahatovici every night. I went to my own house. It's my own

20 home, so I went there every night.

21 Q. Sir, could you just tell the Judges whether you saw

22 any -- anything which made you believe that graves had been dug in

23 Ahatovici.

24 A. Before that, the 5th of June, when the Serb forces withdrew that

25 had come in from the north, from the Ilidza municipality, they were in a

Page 7958

1 good mood and they -- there was a burst of gunfire as celebration and they

2 moved towards Bioca and Ilijas. And they were in high spirits. And I

3 knew that in the villages there were no more people who were armed, no

4 soldiers from outside. Because the Ahatovici genocide was not executed by

5 the locals. They were guides. But the units had come in from elsewhere.

6 Where they had come from, I can't say. All I know is the people that came

7 in from Ilijas. But then I realised and I knew that there was an empty

8 space there, that it was empty, and at dusk I would take the byroads and

9 paths and come in to the settlement. Of course, I knew every foot of the

10 area. And I went to look for food and clothing. I didn't want anybody to

11 see me. But let me just give you an example.

12 My sister's son lived in an attic in my mother's house for a

13 month. He was 14 years old. And he lived at Cengic Vila but he lived

14 alone for a month there. And I came into that same house but I never saw

15 him, because he would hear me coming in or something coming in and he'd

16 just be quiet up there in the attic. And as for the graves, I personally

17 saw the dredgers digging the earth, the soil. And once they had completed

18 all that, then I would go to that locality at dusk and I would see that

19 there had been digging going on there and that somebody had been buried

20 there. Now, how many people were inside in the grave, I don't know. In

21 1996, when the exhumation took place, then people saw. But I located each

22 of the mass graves. I was -- knew their exact location and didn't make a

23 mistake. Even half a metre to the left or right, I knew the exact spot.

24 Q. Sir, at the map to your left at numbers 3, 4, and 5, you've marked

25 mass graves. Are those the mass graves to which you are referring now?

Page 7959

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I have another few questions on this

3 issue. I think I should defer them until after the break.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we should do that. May I first ask

5 Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom. We'll have a

6 break for some 25 minutes.

7 Mr. Mujkic, would you please follow Madam Usher.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, some time the Chamber will make some

10 observations on how time is used, and one of the things that struck me

11 more or less that were in -- I think it's in schedule D to the indictment,

12 the Prosecution will have to prove some over a hundred mosques being

13 destroyed. I wondered why we had to spend five minutes on a mosque which

14 is not on that list. Not because that mosque is of any less importance

15 for those who experienced it, but for the Prosecution, I think the focus

16 should be on the ones listed first. This is just a small observation.

17 You could say, well, what's five minutes? But it's really the use of

18 time, which the parties are struggling with time, and therefore, I give

19 some observations now and then, some guidance to the parties.

20 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes -- yes, Ms. Loukas.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Before Your Honour leaves the Bench, perhaps the

22 witness might be instructed to avoid labels and terminology such as

23 genocide, which of course is ultimately a matter for Your Honours. It's a

24 marker, of course, Your Honours --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, Ms. Loukas. At the same time, as

Page 7960

1 you see, emotions sometimes come in.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed. I appreciate that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, if that would be, I would say, the

4 language used repetitiously, and as a standard, then -- which, as far as I

5 can see, is not what happens with this witness, we'll certainly give him

6 some guidance to avoid certain terminology. But until now, it was

7 occasional.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. I'm just placing a marker here

9 at this point.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We noticed that. We'll adjourn until 5 minutes

11 to 11.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Prior to the witness coming back

16 into the courtroom, I can indicate that I attempted to contact Mr. Stewart

17 during the last break.


19 MS. LOUKAS: And I was not able to contact him. So I will try and

20 contact him during the next break. In relation to that matter

21 Your Honours raised with me this morning.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I do understand. I also noticed that the

23 witness is a protected witness, but he testifying about Kljuc.

24 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And if my recollection is good, Kljuc was at least a

Page 7961

1 subject of specific attention in an earlier stage of this proceedings.

2 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour. It was --

3 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, I can imagine that Kljuc would be more

4 easy to prepare than perhaps some other municipality.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll first hear --

7 MR. HANNIS: And I would indicate to the Court, Your Honour, we

8 have contacted that witness and he indicates he would be available to

9 travel next week.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But let's first -- I would rather not like to

11 take any decision if we have not tried our utmost best to get in touch

12 with counsel who will have to deal with that witness.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. I can indicate, Your Honour, I left a message

14 indicating that I'd be out of court again in about an hour and a half, so

15 I assume we'll be able to come into some sort of communication at the next

16 break.

17 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, the organising the arrival of that

18 witness of course takes some time as well and it's already next week. So

19 therefore, we'll have to take a decision soon.

20 Then are you ready, Mr. Gaynor, to continue the examination of the

21 present witness?

22 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Gaynor.


Page 7962

1 Q. Sir, just before we go on, I appreciate that there's a lot going

2 through your mind while I ask these questions and I appreciate your

3 patience in answering questions as briefly as possible, and then, if you

4 raise things, as His Honour said, I'll take you to those specific things.

5 Now, one of the things that you did raise was you said shortly before the

6 break, and I'm quoting here, page 34, line 11: "As for the graves, I

7 personally saw the dredgers digging the earth."

8 Now, could you tell Their Honours approximately when you saw the

9 dredgers digging the earth.

10 A. That was after the 5th of June, because before that I did not come

11 to the neighbourhood. Because the forces that had come from Ilijas were

12 in Ahatovici between the 2nd and the 5th. So I did not come at that time.

13 After the 5th or 6th of June, I came, and I heard the sound of these

14 dredgers, and since I know every foot in the area, I knew exactly where it

15 was. 6th or 7th. It wasn't done in a single day; it went on for a couple

16 of days.

17 Q. You also said just shortly before the break that you located each

18 of the mass graves. When did you locate those, and for what reason?

19 A. After reintegration in February 1996, I, as secretary of the local

20 commune, I was there every day. UNPROFOR came to see me. Some French

21 soldiers, and they were very interested in these mass graves. So I went

22 to these sites for the first time with their APC. I told them where it

23 was and they made sketches, inscriptions, they put questions to me and I

24 did not know the answer to these questions. They asked me how many people

25 were buried in a single mass grave. How could I know that?

Page 7963

1 Q. Did - were the mass graves then exhumed after you identified their

2 location?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were any bodies discovered in those graves?

5 A. Well, I can tell you about each and every grave individually, how

6 many bodies were found in which one. We found bodies that had not been

7 buried. We found the bodies of people who got killed in certain

8 localities and their bodies simply remained there, unburied.

9 Q. Could you just tell Their Honours how many bodies were in those

10 three graves, were exhumed from those three graves in 1996.

11 A. The grave marked with the number 3 was the biggest mass grave. We

12 found 16 male bodies there. So there weren't any minors or women there;

13 only males. Then grave number 4. There were four women there. Among

14 them, my sister and her daughter and other women from Ahatovici. If

15 necessary, I can give you their names as well. Grave number 5: It's near

16 the mosque. We found two bodies in that grave.

17 Q. Now, sir, another thing that you mentioned before the break was

18 that before -- again, this is a quote: "Before that, the 5th of June,

19 when the Serb forces withdrew that had come in from the north, from the

20 Ilidza municipality, they were in a good mood and there was --"

21 A. Not Ilidza. Ilijas. They're at different cardinal points.

22 Q. Thank you. You said in any event that these troops were in a good

23 mood and there was a burst of gunfire in celebration. Could you tell

24 Their Honours from where were these forces withdrawing?

25 A. They were withdrawing from Ahatovici towards Gornja Bioca. Then

Page 7964

1 they went to Donja Bioca and to Ilijas. They came from Ahatovici, yes.

2 MR. GAYNOR: I request that the witness be shown the next exhibit.



5 Q. The next exhibit is headed "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior, Sarajevo, bulletin of daily events

7 number 114, Sarajevo CSB."

8 Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the second paragraph,

9 and specifically, to the part which reads: "The Green Berets and other

10 Muslim paramilitary formations which attacked parts of the Dobrosevici NZ

11 yesterday, 29th of May, 1992, were repelled and driven out of the school

12 in Dobrosevici, and from the Bioca village in Ilijas SO, and then they

13 were encircled in Ahatovici village. The Serbian army issued an ultimatum

14 to these paramilitary groups in Ahatovici village to surrender by 1800

15 hours today, 30th of May, 1992."

16 That document is dated at the very end, 30th of May, 1992.

17 What comment, if any, do you have to make about those sentences

18 I've just read out?

19 A. My comment would be the following: On the 29th of May, the

20 shelling started. I said, and I repeat again, and I assert, that for four

21 days there was not a single moment without shells falling. What do you

22 mean, negotiations? Who could have gone out, and where, to negotiate?

23 The communication lines were cut, because our telephone line was connected

24 to the Ilidza telephone exchange and Ilidza was already in Serb hands. So

25 telephones were not working. Who could negotiate under shells? This does

Page 7965

1 not correspond to the truth at all, not 0.00 per cent.

2 Just another thing by way of a comment. Expelled from the school

3 in Dobrosevici, it says. Dobrosevici, or rather, the school in

4 Dobrosevici, had three apartments where the headmaster lived, a retired

5 teacher with his wife, and a lady teacher. In 1996, in the month of

6 August, I got the offices of the school headmaster, where there was a

7 couch. So there could not have been any military formations there at the

8 time. It is among Serb schools. There is no theory that anybody would

9 have been there in the midst of Serb houses. Everybody defended their own

10 doorstep. Nobody left their own homes. So this is not the truth.

11 Q. Sir, we're just going to move now to a period of your evidence

12 concerning intercepted communications. Now, is it right that on Sunday --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to that, Mr. Gaynor, you're finished

14 with the graves?

15 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, there is one issue which I will raise at

16 the end of this examination concerning those who died in the village, but

17 for the moment, I have finished, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please proceed.


20 Q. Is it right that on Sunday a number of audiotapes were played to

21 you through earphones and you were asked to identify whether you knew the

22 participants in those conversations?

23 A. Yes. Yes. I listened to audio recordings and I recognised

24 whatever I could recognise.

25 Q. And were you then asked to offer your comments as to what, if

Page 7966

1 anything, the participants might have been talking about?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you then inspect and sign a written record of your

4 comments on those intercepted communications?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'd like to tender the record that I've

7 just referred to, which is signed and dated by the witness.



10 Q. Sir, there's no need for you to refer to that document again?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Luke.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Just in relation to

13 this intercept witness authentication receipt, I can indicate, Your

14 Honour, that I have a similar objection to the objection I made yesterday,

15 in relation to the last witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. The problem, however, is that

17 the ruling of yesterday included some assessment of whether the witness

18 would have any specific knowledge he could put in place in relation to

19 that --

20 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- conversation. So it's difficult. If you say it's

22 just comments rather than anything else, then -- or speculation,

23 speculative comment, as a matter of fact.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it's something we're not seeking; on the

Page 7967

1 other hand, we have a relatively long list. Perhaps we should go through

2 it portion by portion and see whether there's anything to be added to the

3 telephone conversation on the basis of the witness's knowledge and where

4 he is invited to give comment which would easily lead to speculation

5 rather than anything else.

6 So since we only have heard your objection now in general terms --

7 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. There's an objection in general

8 terms to a document of this nature, and specifically in relation to

9 various of the conversations. Your Honour, there is again, as indeed

10 there was with the document yesterday for the last witness, elements of

11 conjecture and speculation and not sufficient foundation laid. So,

12 Your Honour, I think it's a question of specifically which conversations

13 the Prosecution seeks to have analysed. If the Prosecution seeks all of

14 this written documentation, Your Honour, then perforce we must go through

15 them one by one and establish a basis or a foundation for the comments

16 that are made. Otherwise, the vast bulk of them do appear as -- at a

17 level of conjecture and speculation.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gaynor.

19 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour. First I'd just like to say that my

20 intention is to take the witness through the most relevant comments that

21 he's made in respect of these conversations and in respect of written --

22 in one case, a written record of a conversation. And I don't think it's a

23 good use of court time to get him to identify the participants. He's

24 already done that. And where he's not able to identify somebody, that's

25 recorded here. Where he is, that's also record.

Page 7968

1 In respect of the question as to whether this amounts to

2 speculation generally, I think by way of general submissions, intercept

3 evidence is a specific kind of evidence. Many of the participants in

4 intercepted communications, as we have previously submitted, were aware

5 that their conversations were being intercepted. They were deliberately

6 evasive. They spoke in extraordinarily indirect terms about many

7 conversations. For that reason, it's extremely important that

8 Your Honours are in possession of all relevant information from people who

9 were on the ground at the time in order to add context to what the

10 intercepts say. Now whether Your Honours choose to accept the comments of

11 some other person such as this witness is, of course, up to Your Honours.

12 But we strongly -- we submit that it's extremely important that

13 Your Honours are in possession of contextual comment by people who were

14 there at the time, as well as, of course, by expert witnesses which you

15 have also.

16 JUDGE ORIE: About identification of voices. You didn't make any

17 objection to that, Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I don't have any objection in

19 relation to identification of voices, no.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then perhaps -- let us Judges perhaps first try

21 to get briefly an impression by going through it.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: We have tried to look briefly through the comments,

24 and the objection, the general objection, is denied because the witness

25 adds some context. But to say that there no guessing and speculation at

Page 7969

1 all in it would be a different matter. For example, when the witness asks

2 himself why the interlocutors are talking in a specific way and then

3 guesses that perhaps they knew they were intercepted, that's, of course --

4 comes close to speculation, and at least is not based on personal

5 knowledge of the witness, which doesn't mean that you couldn't ask

6 yourself that question and try to understand whether it's a relevant

7 question and what would be the answer to that question. But I don't

8 think, as a matter of fact, that the witness could give those answers.

9 But in general terms, the objection is denied. But please, if you go with

10 the witness through the comments, Mr. Gaynor, please be aware that the

11 Chamber is assisted by context added to the intercepts which assists the

12 Chamber in understanding the intercepts.

13 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I would just add that of course my

15 objection was directed to, of course, the guesswork, conjecture and

16 speculation. I could have no objection to anything that might place a

17 particular conversation in context.


19 MS. LOUKAS: But it is the question of conjecture and

20 speculation --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Whether anything is really adding context or whether

22 where it comes to speculation.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.


25 Mr. Gaynor, you may proceed.

Page 7970

1 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd request that the witness

2 be shown the next exhibit, which is Exhibit 369A. This exhibit has

3 already been played to Your Honours and I don't intend playing it again.

4 Q. Mr. Mujkic, I'd like you to turn to the bottom of the third page

5 of your version, and that's around about the top of the third page of the

6 English version. And I'm going to read out a few sentences and then ask

7 you some specific questions:

8 "Radovan Karadzic: I'm all right. Have there been any attacks

9 tonight.

10 Cedo: Well, yes. There have been some in Rajlovac.

11 Radovan Karadzic: In Rajlovac?

12 Cedo: They went for that barracks there from Ahatovici and that

13 attack has been repelled. Now there's a build-up of troops here near the

14 shopping centre.

15 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.

16 Cedo: The Green Berets are assembling there and as a huge

17 build-up. We are expecting an attack on Vrace."

18 Now, sir, this intercept which dates from the 30th of May, 1992,

19 is one of those which you listened to at the weekend. And I just want to

20 focus on the suggestion that there was an attack from Ahatovici on the

21 Rajlovac barracks.

22 You were in the area at the time. What can you tell the Court

23 about an attack from Ahatovici on Rajlovac barracks?

24 A. I can only repeat what I've already said. The shelling started on

25 the 29th, and it went on until 10.00 on the 2nd of June. During that

Page 7971

1 time, no one could go anywhere out of the shelter. No cooking could be

2 done. People ate whatever they had. We drank milk most of the time

3 because we had cows. How could forces be concentrated when there was

4 non-stop shelling? There was no movement whatsoever. We were all in

5 shelters. Believe me, during those four days, no one could get out. That

6 is the truth.

7 Q. I'd now request that the witness be shown the next exhibit.

8 Now, the next exhibit is not accompanied by an audio file. It is

9 a written record of an exhibit.


11 MR. GAYNOR: This is a record of a conversation conducted on the

12 5th of June, 1992. According to the written record, it's between

13 Mijatovic from the Rajlovac Municipal Assembly and Prstojevic from Ilidza.

14 And in the interests of brevity, I'm going to focus simply on one sentence

15 and that sentence is contained at the third line of the second page of

16 your version, Mr. Mujkic, and it appears second or third line, page 3 of

17 the English. I'm going to read out the English.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Prior to that, Your Honour, I would indicate that --


20 MS. LOUKAS: -- this is, of course, a conversation that Mr. Gaynor

21 has indicated there's no audio file, and of course the Defence would have

22 an interest in the provenance of this particular --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gaynor, you said this was a -- you said the

24 exhibit was not accompanied by an audio file. It is a written record of

25 an exhibit. Which seems to refer to any other non-written record.

Page 7972

1 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to correct what I said. This is a written

2 record of a conversation. If I can give Your Honours a very brief bit of

3 background information. There was some litigation earlier on in this

4 trial as to the -- there was an attempt by the previous Defence team to

5 exclude intercept evidence in general.


7 MR. GAYNOR: And we in our filings, we explained that the BiH

8 security services, when they intercepted communications, kept audiotapes

9 of a great number of intercepted communications, and in other cases, they

10 kept written records of some other conversations and did not keep

11 audiotapes. So records of intercepted communications fall into audio

12 only, and written only categories. And from the audio --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, I take it that you'll understand that of

14 course such a transcript, accompanied by an audiotape from probative value

15 is quite different from what we see here. But nevertheless -- well,

16 Ms. Loukas, Mr. Gaynor has now explained to us that the origin is that

17 this written report was found, I do understand --

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- in the -- was it the Sarajevo MUP offices or --

20 Mr. Gaynor?

21 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour. In relation to the provenance of

22 this particular record and in relation to intercept evidence generally, we

23 have listed on our witness list a number of witnesses who were involved in

24 the interception of communication at all levels, at the micro-level and at

25 the more senior level. And it would be my submission that authenticity as

Page 7973

1 to this document should be resolved at that time. This witness certainly

2 is -- didn't intercept this conversation. He's not an appropriate person

3 to comment about the authenticity, but he is able to comment about the

4 sentence in it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But of course if commenting on a

6 non-authentic document is -- but, Ms. Loukas, I think it would be fair to

7 allow this witness to answer those questions, and if at a later stage the

8 authenticity might not be proven, as indicated by Mr. Gaynor, then of

9 course that would have its consequences as well for the testimony of that

10 witness. But --

11 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed. Your Honour has already made the essential

12 points. Firstly, the question of weight to be attributed to transcripts

13 that are not backed up by an audio file, and secondly, the -- what would

14 be the probative value of a witness commenting on a non-authentic

15 document. But I think the issues that have now been clarified and the

16 marker has been placed there and -- [Transcript read in error

17 "[Interpretation] Federal Republic of the interpreters cannot hear the

18 speaker."]

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the speaker. We

20 are sorry, but we can no longer interpret.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you were too far away from your

22 microphone. But I think you said that the issues had been clarified and a

23 marker had been placed and those were the most important.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. The points I made were

25 the -- the -- there were two essential points that --

Page 7974

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's already on the transcript.

2 MS. LOUKAS: That's already on the transcript.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Firstly the question of weight; secondly, what would

4 be the probative value of a witness commenting on a non-authentic

5 document.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. It seems to indicate that on the transcript I

7 said something about the Federal Republic of the interpreters, but I don't

8 recall saying anything of that nature.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now we are again invited not to speak at the same

10 time, which I'll take seriously.

11 Mr. Gaynor, please proceed.


13 Q. Sir, I'll just read out one sentence, and I'm going to start now:

14 "Mijatovic continued by saying that the fighting around Ilijas has been

15 going on for two days now and that they are concentrating on one side only

16 because no threat is coming from Ahatovici any longer."

17 Now, as I mentioned, that intercept is dated the 5th of June,

18 1992. What comment, if any, do you have to make about the sentence I've

19 just read out?

20 A. Are you asking me?

21 Q. Yes, please, Mr. Mujkic.

22 A. This just confirms what I said, that on the 5th of June, the

23 forces that had come from Ilijas went back the same way, and it also

24 confirms the fact that Ahatovici no longer represented a threat and that

25 they were concentrating on other theatres of operation because they had

Page 7975

1 already done the job there.

2 Q. I'd request that the witness be shown the next document, which is

3 not an intercept. The heading on this document is "Serb Republic of BiH

4 MUP." And it bears a stamp, saying "Serb Republic of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina, Sarajevo." And the date, 3rd of June, 1992.



8 Q. I might add that the words "Serb Republic of BiH MUP" are in the

9 fax header of this document and the actual header on the document itself

10 is Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of Internal Affairs,

11 Sarajevo.

12 Sir, I'd like to direct your attention specifically to the third

13 paragraph in your version, and I'll just read out the most relevant part:

14 "On the territory of the Serb municipality of Rajlovac, local community of

15 Dobrosevici, fierce battles were fought against the Green Berets from the

16 village of Ahatovici who were aided by HOS members from Kiseljak. They

17 attacked the Serb villages of Dobrosevici, Mihaljevici, and Golubovici.

18 During the fierce battle, the enemies were defeated. Village of Ahatovici

19 was liberated and is now under the Serb army control."

20 What can you say about that, those sentences, Mr. Mujkic?

21 A. All I can say is I confirm that this 3rd of June was the day when

22 officially, or rather, the 6th of June was when Ahatovici was taken

23 control of. But I'd just like to draw the Court's attention to this piece

24 of information, where the HOS is mentioned, the H-O-S, that had come in

25 from Kiseljak. And the HOS was a military unit of the Republic of

Page 7976

1 Croatia. So whenever there was an attack to be launched by the Serb

2 forces, they would send in the Green Berets in HOS. They would declare

3 that to their people and refer to the Green Berets in HOS. But I would

4 like to say that if the HOS took part, then those people could not have

5 been resistant to bullets. So you can see whether a single Croat was

6 killed in this whole process around Ahatovici. So it doesn't correspond

7 to the truth, because no HOS soldier ever set foot in Ahatovici. And HOS

8 is mentioned. Let me return to the 9th of May, when the Sokolje

9 settlement was attacked. Then they brought up the HOS again. The HOS was

10 mentioned. So it was just propaganda to mention and bring in things like

11 HOS into the equation.

12 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request that the witness be shown the next

13 exhibit.



16 Q. Now, this -- sorry, Madam Registrar, but this exhibit already

17 bears the number 369B. So for the clarity of the record, we can probably

18 stay with that. This is a conversation between Momcilo Krajisnik, and

19 Mijatovic, and Ljubisa Vladusic, dated the 8th of June, 1992.

20 Now, Mr. Mujkic, I'm going to direct your attention to specific

21 parts of this and then I'm going to ask you to comment about those.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, I'm getting a bit lost. This is not any

23 more related to the authentication receipt or ... Because the last one

24 was the 5th of June, 1992. That's what I find on page 2 out of 4, at the

25 bottom. But the new one now is the 8th of June. And I'm just looking at

Page 7977

1 the dates at the left-hand side. I do not see any 8th of June.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I might indicate that on my examination

3 of the intercept witness authentication receipt, I think it's in reference

4 to the conversation there that's dated 5th of June.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Loukas please speak into the

6 microphone. Thank you.

7 MS. LOUKAS: -- N numbers match up. I'm going to have to take

8 control of this microphone.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I now have become aware that we see

10 internal number CD 258402018, which is the second entry on page 2 out of

11 4.

12 MS. LOUKAS: It's got the wrong date, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether the --

14 MS. LOUKAS: Or a different date.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor.

16 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. I'm grateful for the assistance of Defence

17 counsel. I think, as Ms. Edgerton pointed out yesterday, the date 5th of

18 June, 1992, is inaccurate. It should be dated the 8th of June, 1992. The

19 date --

20 JUDGE ORIE: On this receipt -- on this --

21 MR. GAYNOR: On the witness's statement that date is inaccurate.

22 The correct date is 8th of June, 1992.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not aware that on this statement or on this

24 declaration, that it was presented to us yesterday by Ms. Edgerton. But

25 do I have to understand that the comments by the witness we find on page 2

Page 7978

1 out of 4, starting with the words "Krajisnik mentions Gacanovic family,"

2 that that relates not to an intercepted conversation of the 5th of June

3 but of the 8th of June?

4 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So now it becomes clear. I still do not understand

6 what that has to do with what Ms. Edgerton may have said yesterday, but

7 perhaps that's my mistake.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honours, there's just one further point in

9 relation to this specific conversation. Your Honours will recall that

10 this was a conversation that some commentary that I objected to yesterday,

11 that's the conversation relating to whether or not some sort of nexus

12 could be drawn because of the mention of the name Gacanovic and I would

13 submit this particular sort of commentary false into the same realm. It's

14 the same conversation and the similar issues of conjecture and speculation

15 arise in relation to this conversation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's first look at it, because we -- it might

17 not be -- let's first listen to the questions Mr. Gaynor will put to the

18 witness.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

21 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Mujkic, I'm going to direct your attention first of all to a

23 comment which appears very close to the bottom of the English translation,

24 and I believe it's the fourth line on the transcript which you have. It

25 says, and this is Momcilo Krajisnik speaking. He says: "Mirko has told

Page 7979

1 me about problems with these captured men and other stuff."

2 Now, if we can just skip a few lines. We come down -- it's on the

3 next page in the English version.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, you said "I'm going to direct your

5 attention first of all to the comment which appears very close to the

6 bottom of the English translation." English translation of what?

7 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry. I'm talking about the English transcript of

8 the conversation between --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what page?

10 MR. GAYNOR: On the first page, about three lines from the bottom.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it's clear. Yes, please proceed.

12 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

13 Q. I'll just skip on a bit. And then I want to start again where

14 Momcilo Krajisnik says: [as read] "But is should not be done something?

15 Something that is not following the rules, isn't it so?" Mijatovic: I

16 know. Momcilo Krajisnik: Because they have released some men. They went

17 from here. They are back again.

18 Stopping right there. Do you know which men Mr. Krajisnik might

19 be referring to right there, Mr. Mujkic.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, before we proceed, the transcript

21 shows that Mr. Gaynor said Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik says: "Should not be

22 done something, something that is not following the rules, isn't it so."

23 I'm not sure if I'm on the right page of the transcript. I assume I am.

24 And it doesn't read that way, Your Honour. It reads: "If you find a

25 solution, it is okay. If you do not find a solution, you can include us,

Page 7980

1 then I will come to consultation. We should not do anything wrong, you

2 know."

3 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'm referring to about the ninth line

4 down on page 2.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you move -- Mr. Gaynor, could you please

6 try to be so organised that what you're referring to that we can

7 understand what it is. Would you please at all times indicate what page,

8 approximately what line, and then read it so that we can follow you. So

9 you're now referring to page 2 in the English version, and the witness is

10 then directed, I take it, to what page? Also the second page of the B/C/S

11 version?

12 MR. GAYNOR: That's right, Your Honour. It's about halfway down

13 the second page of the B/C/S version.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So you would please look at that on the second,

15 although unnumbered page, where on the top there appears a number which

16 ends by 0655. And then approximately in the middle of that page, would

17 you then please read, Mr. Gaynor, exactly the phrase you were referring

18 to.

19 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. The core phrase, Your Honour, is when Momcilo

20 Krajisnik says: "Because they have released some men. They went from

21 here. They are back again."

22 Q. Now, my question to you, Mr. Mujkic, is: Are you able to assist

23 the Court in explaining what Mr. Krajisnik is referring to there?

24 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, no foundation whatsoever has been

25 laid for the witness to comment on this particular conversation.

Page 7981

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, if, for example, you would ask the

2 witness whether anything happened during that time he knows of which would

3 fit into what the interlocutors are saying, then you're not asking on what

4 those who are speaking intended to say but whether he sees any parallel

5 and what he experienced himself compared to what the persons speaking are

6 saying. And then we'll find out later whether the basis for that parallel

7 is solid enough to give it any weight.

8 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour. I'm loath to ask the witness

9 specific questions about events that I know that he knows about, and I

10 know that Mr. Krajisnik is referring to here, because I think that would

11 lead the question to the conclusion that we're trying to get. So that's

12 the reason I'm not asking the witness too many questions in advance of

13 putting the sentence from the intercept to him. However, if you wish me

14 to ask the witness some preparatory questions --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Gaynor -- you're asking the witness to

16 tell us what Mr. Krajisnik is referring to.

17 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: How could the witness tell us what Mr. Krajisnik is

19 referring to?

20 MR. GAYNOR: That's exactly --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we could see the wordings used during this

22 conversation, and you could invite the witness, and perhaps that's what

23 you have in mind, to tell us whether he experienced anything that would

24 be -- fit into what he hears. I mean, if I hear a telephone conversation

25 saying that they won by 2-0, of course you could ask a witness to tell us

Page 7982

1 what the person was referring to, but you could ask him whether he knows

2 of a match of that same day that was won by 2-0 and whether he could tell

3 us had what match that was and we could later find out whether there were

4 other matches won by 2-0, whatever. That's the starting point. But you

5 can't ask a witness what someone intended to say in a telephone

6 conversation unless he has very specific knowledge, for example he was

7 explained by the witness at a later stage -- it was explained by an

8 interlocutor at a later stage what he wanted to say at that time or

9 whether he announced it beforehand. But I think it's more of a technical

10 nature the objection by Ms. Loukas than it appears.

11 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I then suggest that the witness should

12 not address himself to the intercept for a few moments, and I'm going to

13 ask him some questions and then we can come back to the intercept.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.


16 Q. Mr. Mujkic, before you left the village of Ahatovici, did you act

17 as a host of any kind to anyone?

18 A. Yes. I've already said that in mid-May, 15 of our people went to

19 Visoko to get weapons and that 12 people came with them, people who had

20 been expelled from the Bratunac municipality, who had been taken prison

21 there, exchanged at Pale, and sent to Visoko. And they had their

22 families, friends and family, in Sarajevo. And they went towards Sarajevo

23 with our people going as far as Ahatovici. However, they weren't able to

24 go through further towards the town of Sarajevo, and as fate would have

25 it, they happened to find themselves in the Ahatovici settlement. And as

Page 7983

1 there were no military formations in Ahatovici or logistics, we fed them

2 in our own homes. For example, six people had lunch in one house, six in

3 somebody else's house. I provided lunch twice for a group of six people,

4 on two occasions. So I assume that those were the people concerned,

5 because other foreigners, if I can put it that way, other people from

6 outside, didn't come to Ahatovici. Those were the only people that that

7 could have been.

8 And let me just add that they were just afraid of not being

9 captured again, because the Geneva Conventions, for example, and the

10 provisions of the Geneva Conventions, I'm not too familiar with them

11 myself, but it allowed the execution of somebody who was exchanged again

12 but recaptured on the battlefield. And they were terribly afraid that

13 this might happen to them.

14 Q. Sir, I just want to focus on the people who were expelled from the

15 Bratunac municipality, taken prison there, exchanged at Pale, and then

16 sent to Visoko. Are those the people who ended up in your house who you

17 were feeding and being a host to?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Mujkic, what date did that happen that the people were in

20 your house?

21 A. They were in my house on two occasions, six people on two

22 occasions, but that was the end of May, just before the attack itself.

23 Q. And did they tell you the date or approximate date on which they

24 had been released from prison?

25 A. Don't ask me that, please. I'm not a recorder of war events.

Page 7984

1 Quite simply, they told their story. No dates were mentioned. But I

2 think there are written traces of the exchange of -- in the municipality

3 of Visoko with the Bratunac people, but I don't know. I didn't take part

4 in it. So I can't give you dates and play around with dates. I don't

5 know, quite simply.

6 Q. I'd like to take you now back to the intercept in front of you,

7 and I'm going to refer you to the sentence which I said earlier, and I'll

8 read if out again just for the record. This appears at the --

9 approximately the eighth line on page 2 of the English transcript, and it

10 appears about halfway down on the second page of the B/C/S transcript.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik says: "Because they have released some men. They went

12 from here. They are back again."

13 Now --

14 MS. LOUKAS: And the rest of the sentence, Your Honours.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, I'm going to be reading more of this

16 intercept as we go on, but I'll finish that sentence. Momcilo Krajisnik

17 continues: "Yes, yes. So they are attacking, aren't they?" Mijatovic

18 says: "Yes, that's it." Momcilo Krajisnik says: "Well you see it. You

19 are a smart man so that --"

20 Now, I want to stop there because I want to address

21 another part in a few minutes. But right there, what, if anything, can

22 you tell Their Honours about that portion of that intercept?

23 MS. LOUKAS: Again, Your Honour, the situation is this --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just intervene for one second.

25 Mr. Mujkic, do you understand any English? Do you speak any

Page 7985

1 English?

2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please take off your headphones for one

4 moment. Madam Usher, would you assist Mr. Mujkic.

5 Mr. Gaynor, I'm trying to understand what you want to link this

6 telephone conversation to the experience of this accused. What makes you

7 believe that the witness could do this any better than the Court itself?

8 MR. GAYNOR: Well, Your Honour, I'll take it in stages. First of

9 all, the intercept in which Krajisnik says: "Because they released some

10 men. They went from here. They're back again." That's an extremely

11 generic kind of comment. And I'm not sure Your Honours can draw any

12 inferences from that comment. Now, in his declaration, this witness has

13 said: "12 people from Bratunac were released in Pale and Krajisnik knows

14 about it and refers to them coming back again." Now, the issue of

15 Krajisnik's knowledge of events going on in Pale, events going on in

16 Ahatovici, is of course fairly critical to his criminal responsibility.

17 That's why --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but how does this witness know that -- shouldn't

19 you then first establish that Mr. Krajisnik knew about that? I mean,

20 how -- what's the basis for this witness to assume that Mr. Krajisnik had

21 knowledge of those persons, or will that appear at a later stage?

22 MR. GAYNOR: Well, the basis is that the men involved were in the

23 witness's house, he talked to them. He listened to this intercept without

24 any --

25 JUDGE ORIE: No. The issue was: The comment that Mr. Krajisnik

Page 7986

1 is referring to, well, that situation, those who had been released, was

2 based, as you told us, on the knowledge of Mr. Krajisnik of that release

3 or, well -- my question is: If that's the basis, how would this witness

4 know about the knowledge of Mr. Krajisnik? I mean, of course he can say:

5 I think. I'm not saying that Mr. Krajisnik is not referring or is

6 referring. I do not know. But what would the witness know more that

7 would make him the person that could draw inferences that could not be

8 drawn just on the basis of the evidence he gave until now and the evidence

9 contained in this transcript?

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor.

12 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, at this stage I don't intend to ask the

13 witness anything more about that comment. As a general matter, not simply

14 in respect of this witness, I think that any -- it's our submission that

15 no witness knows what Mr. Krajisnik knew.


17 MR. GAYNOR: That's a matter of logic. However, based on what the

18 witness knew --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- it's our submission no witness knows what

20 Mr. Krajisnik knew. Now, you say that's a matter of logic. What's a

21 matter of logic?

22 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry. I'll rephrase the -- what I meant to say.

23 What I meant to say was that to single human being knows exactly what

24 another single human being knows, it's simply as a matter of inference --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Inferences. I fully agree with you.

Page 7987

1 MR. GAYNOR: That was the sole point I was trying to make. Now,

2 why -- the question which Your Honours are asking is: Why am I asking the

3 witness to comment on these sentences, and the answer, simply as a generic

4 point, is that because of the generic form of many of the intercepted

5 communications, we submit that it is important that Your Honours are in

6 receipt of comments from people who were in the area at the time who might

7 have spoken to people who were referred to in these sentences and who can

8 assist Your Honours in drawing your own inferences.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, there is no problem whatsoever in

10 presenting evidence on events that could explain the telephone

11 conversation. The basic question is whether the witness is more

12 competent, is better able to make those inferences or whether the witness

13 is here to provide us with information, information gained by someone who

14 was in the area at that time, which would allow to make inferences, that

15 is, which would allow the Chamber to make inferences. Because that last

16 little step is not something which is in the hands of a witness. I refer

17 to my earlier example: Tell us that the witness knows that the person who

18 made the telephone conversation left in his car in the direction of a

19 certain football stadium. Fine, that all could assist in making these

20 final inferences. But these inferences, finally, are to be made by the

21 Chamber on the basis of the information provided by the witness. And the

22 more the witness is at a distance, the more -- the less, perhaps, the

23 information available for the Chamber to make such inferences. But you

24 cannot ask the witness to make the inferences himself. But please provide

25 us with all the relevant information that would assist us in better

Page 7988

1 understanding of a telephone conversation by giving contextual, relevant

2 circumstances. Please proceed.

3 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Mujkic, I'm going to read out --

5 JUDGE ORIE: We first have to ask the witness to put his

6 headphones on again, because -- yes, please proceed.


8 Q. Mr. Mujkic, I'm going to read out --

9 MR. GAYNOR: I request a moment to confer, Your Honour.


11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

13 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. I'm going to read out a few more sentences. Mijatovic --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you are indicating first the page, then the

16 lines, and then we can follow, Mr. Gaynor.

17 MR. GAYNOR: This is immediately following --


19 MR. GAYNOR: The bit we've just been following. Mijatovic says:

20 "You know what, why is this part now, to say so, separated, military and

21 civilians?" Momcilo Krajisnik: "Yes." Mijatovic: "Well, here I think

22 we -- these women, they are accommodated, I think. As many as it was

23 possible: Women, children, and old men, to be under conditions. And the

24 military part --"

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, are you reading from different

Page 7989

1 transcript? It says: "With certain conditions." "To be under

2 conditions," you said.

3 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'll just -- I want to check that I'm

4 reading from the same translation as Your Honours are.

5 Your Honour, it appears that I was in possession of a translation

6 which was ever so slightly different from the one which Your Honours have.

7 For that reason, I will continue with the translation which Your Honours

8 have.


10 MR. GAYNOR: I'll begin again. Mijatovic says: "Well, here I

11 think we -- these women, they are accommodated, I think, as many as it was

12 possible, women, children, and old men, with certain conditions. And the

13 military part, that is, for the military police, and that part there will

14 be processed and so on. They are investigating, completing it, and now

15 what are they going to process, believe me that, that I don't know."

16 Now, I'm not going to ask you to comment on that for the moment,

17 Mr. Mujkic. I want to revisit an earlier part of your testimony, in which

18 you spoke about the detention of the Muslim population of Ahatovici. And

19 you said that your wife and her mother - sorry - I would like to rephrase

20 that. Your wife, your mother, and your daughter were detained in the

21 distribution centre and subsequently in the oxygen facility.

22 Q. Now, my first question is this: While those three relatives of

23 yours were detained, were other women from Ahatovici detained at the same

24 facility?

25 A. When one room would get full, then the others would go to another

Page 7990

1 one. They could not use only one room. They also used the restaurant and

2 purportedly that was the best room of all because it was not in the

3 basement, it wasn't humid.

4 Q. And where were the men of Ahatovici detained?

5 A. The men of Ahatovici, the elderly and children, were with women,

6 and military-age men were in two cisterns.

7 Q. Now, you referred to the expression "military-aged men." Were

8 they military-aged soldiers?

9 A. Well, if a person who defended his home is considered to be a

10 soldier, then -- I said already that no logistics, no command existed in

11 Ahatovici except for 12 people from Bratunac, there were no other people

12 from the outside. What do you mean, military formations?

13 Q. Mr. Mujkic, I want to ask you now about your sister's husband.

14 You've already told the Court that your sister was killed in the attack on

15 Ahatovici. Now, did her husband survive the attack on Ahatovici?

16 A. Regrettably, no. Her husband and her son, who was then 21 -

17 actually, he was supposed to turn 21 within two months' time - they were

18 in the small cistern and they both got killed on a bus in Sokolina.

19 Q. Do you know the approximate date on which they were killed in that

20 bus?

21 A. The 14th of June, 1992.

22 Q. Were any other persons related to you killed in that bus?

23 A. The Mujkic family is the oldest family in the territory of

24 Ahatovici. Unfortunately, 13 Mujkics were killed on the bus only. We are

25 the biggest family and the oldest family there, so regrettably, our

Page 7991

1 numbers were the biggest. For hundreds of years, generations of the

2 Mujkic family have lived in that area.

3 Q. Apart from the people who you were related to who were killed on

4 that bus, do you know anyone else who was killed on that bus?

5 A. I know everyone except for two persons from Bratunac who also got

6 killed on that bus. So these two men came from Bratunac were captured and

7 killed. They were buried as an "N" because there was no one to identify

8 them in 1996, after the exhumation.

9 Q. What was the ethnicity of the people who you know and who you were

10 related to who were killed on that bus?

11 A. All of them were Bosniaks of the Muslim faith.

12 Q. Do you know who killed them?

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour --

14 A. I'm here --

15 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Ms. Ms. Loukas.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, in relation to this question. Again,

17 this is a matter which the witness is not in position to answer.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends on how strict you are on hearsay

19 evidence. So therefore, I would allow the question.

20 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But of course, just an answer would perhaps need some

22 further explanation.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So the question to you -- but let me first put

25 another question to you. Were those persons killed on the bus, were they

Page 7992

1 all males?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: For the parties, this corrects an answer which is

4 given on page 32, line 5, where what I expected to be by mistake suddenly

5 a female person was located at the bus.

6 The next question is: "Do you know who killed those on the bus?"

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wished to say the following: I

8 was not there, and I cannot say, therefore. I took an oath to say the

9 truth here. There are witnesses, though, survivors. Until the present

10 day, these persons are my neighbours and they all tell the same story,

11 namely, that this was done by the Serb army. I would not make any further

12 comments because I don't know.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Did they ever give you any further details on why

14 they take the position that those on the bus were killed by the Serb army?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, and that is the

16 truth and nothing but the truth, on the 13th of June, when the main

17 exchange was supposed to take place, all for all, 55 persons were boarded

18 on a cooling truck, refrigerator truck, and taken to Pale and --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. My question was whether your

20 neighbours ever gave you any details why they considered the Serb army to

21 be the ones who killed those on the bus.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bus that left Rajlovac and the

23 cisterns was escorted by cars from the beginning to the end.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's what they told you?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what they told me. So it is

Page 7993

1 nothing but logical that they followed the bus intentionally. And the bus

2 was out there in the open. It was served as if it were on a table. And

3 then what happened, happened. After all, there are recordings. This is a

4 forest where there were no combat operations. So it was between the road

5 and the creek, and allegedly the driver said -- well, I can't say, but

6 what I heard, I can tell you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: How many neighbours told you this? One?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All eight of them. All eight of

9 them, sir. Because I worked as the secretary of the local commune for

10 five years, and I kept abreast of all these things that had happened,

11 because this was our tragedy, and I wanted to have the truth come out in

12 the open. And they're my neighbours, and we talk.

13 JUDGE ORIE: When they gave you this information, was it all of

14 them separately or did they tell it to you when all were present, all the

15 eight?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Excuse me. After I was

17 exchanged, after prison, I spent the entire war in Zenica, and then only

18 in October 1995 I came to Sarajevo, and then, out of curiosity, I went to

19 see my neighbours, friends, relatives, who were all in the city of

20 Sarajevo. And these conversations took place individually. I'd go to

21 visit one person and then we'd talk and then I'd go to visit another

22 person and then we'd talk again. So it's not that we discussed this in a

23 group. We discussed this all individually.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not suggesting anything. I'd just like to know.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

Page 7994


2 Q. Mr. Mujkic, do you know the village of Misoca?

3 A. Yes. I worked for that army, and the village of Misoca had

4 barracks. Actually, these were cisterns, military cisterns with fuel, so

5 there were no civilian cisterns, but there were only military barracks

6 with these cisterns. I was there countless times because they had their

7 own kitchen too. So whenever any one of their electrical appliances would

8 break down, I went there to repair the damage.

9 Q. What was the ethnicity of the village of Misoca?

10 A. I know that the majority population is Muslim. But please don't

11 ask me for any numbers, any percentages, because I really wouldn't want to

12 be saying anything I don't know.

13 Q. What happened to the -- do you know what happened to the Muslim

14 population of Misoca?

15 A. Yes, I do know. From what people said and after the war, I went

16 to that village. I had a friend there. Everything had been mined, blown

17 up. It was very sad. It's not that the material side is that important.

18 They had all their property destroyed, but they survived. I wish all of

19 our people had survived, even at that cost.

20 MR. GAYNOR: I now request that the witness be shown the next

21 exhibit, which bears the exhibit number 369C. And I believe it also bears

22 the exhibit number 282.

23 Now, Your Honours have already heard this exhibit. We don't

24 intend to play it again. I'd like to direct Your Honours' attention to

25 page 5, approximately halfway down page 5.

Page 7995

1 Q. Now, Mr. Mujkic, I'd like to direct your attention to the sixth

2 page, and the figure at the top of that page is 0322-0736. Do you have

3 that page, Mr. Mujkic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, if you go down to about the final quarter of that page, I'm

6 going to read out some sentences into the record. Mirko Krajisnik:

7 "Fuck, this morning I heard that the Muslims, who were running away from

8 Misoca, killed a bus full of Serbs in Srednja. Misoca was being cleansed.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: "Yeah?" Mirko Krajisnik: "So Muslims killed a bus

10 full of Serbs..." Momcilo Krajisnik: "How?" Mirko: "... who were on

11 their way to Pale as refugees. Just a little while ago they told me this

12 wasn't the case, but that, in fact, they took those prisoners with them.""

13 Now, I'm going to skip a few lines to the page 6 of the English

14 translation, starting at line 2. Now, for you, Mr. Mujkic, if you could

15 turn the page. It's about the fifth line down. Mirko Krajisnik --

16 A. What's the page? Sorry. What's the page?

17 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mujkic. It's page 0322-0737. And we're looking at the

18 fifth box. Now, here Mirko Krajisnik says: "At Srednje they were

19 intercepted by Muslims who killed all those prisoners. Our two men have

20 been heavily wounded." Momcilo Krajisnik: "They thought these were our

21 people?" Mirko Krajisnik: "They thought those were our people. Momcilo

22 Krajisnik: Yeah."

23 I'm just going to stop right there. Now, Mr. Mujkic, I simply

24 want to ask you this: Based on what you know and what you heard from the

25 survivors of the bus massacre, did Muslims attack the bus carrying your

Page 7996

1 relatives?

2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, just in relation to that,

3 Your Honour has asked the witness the basis of his knowledge. I don't

4 know that the question that Mr. Gaynor asks takes the matter any further.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although -- I mean, what could the answer be,

6 Mr. Gaynor, anything else than -- I mean, I've asked the witness five, six

7 questions on the basis of knowledge and what it was. So perhaps

8 Ms. Loukas objecting takes more time. I mean, you have asked -- as a

9 matter of fact, I've asked that question already and the question has been

10 answered. But let's just proceed. I'd like the parties -- I mean,

11 although you're right, Ms. Loukas, the question is whether it was

12 necessary to demonstrate, did you arrive at that moment or just let it go.

13 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that, from what you know and from what

15 you heard, the victims in the bus were Muslims and the -- they were killed

16 by Serbs. Yes.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'd like to move to the next exhibit,

19 and we're going to play a clip of this exhibit. This is an audio

20 intercept of a conversation conducted on the 25th of June, 1992 between

21 Miodrag Stupar and Petko Budisa and then between Slavko Lazendic and Petko

22 Budisa.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to this, I'm just

24 wondering if this might be a suitable time, as I had indicated that at

25 this time I would be speaking with my lead counsel in relation to the

Page 7997

1 question Your Honour asked me -- witnesses next week.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We could have a break now, but I'll first ask one

3 thing. Mr. Gaynor, I take it that whenever you do not ask the witness,

4 you present -- at least you tender that into evidence through the receipt.

5 For example, one of the pieces of comments that might give some context is

6 that no other incident of this kind took place, not even in the wider

7 Sarajevo. That seems to be something the witness tells us he knows. And

8 that's through the written -- in evidence.

9 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour. The written report, if you like,

10 Your Honour, is another means of expediting the proceedings. Anything we

11 don't ask him about we were tendering as evidence in writing pursuant to

12 89(F).

13 JUDGE ORIE: And you're aware that whatever is speculation might

14 not be very convincing to the Chamber.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's quite clear to me now. So then, of course, if

18 you say I'm expediting the proceedings, the comment of the witness was

19 they speak about the bus massacre but they claim it was the Muslims who

20 killed those on the bus. That's, first of all, it's -- you asked a few

21 questions about it, and then it seems that you just want to emphasise the

22 point that in the telephone conversation the Muslims are blamed for the

23 killing on the bus, which of course, even without the witness giving this

24 comment, would be clear by reading it.

25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour. It's a bit like using Rule 89(F)

Page 7998

1 or Rule 92 bis. We are seeking to emphasise certain aspects of our

2 evidence. That's absolutely right. And that's one of the reasons we want

3 to have the witness comment. That's merely one of the reasons. So it is

4 to bring Your Honours' attention to what we believe to be more heavily

5 probative parts of the evidence than other parts.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. I don't know whether we would

7 always use the time of the witness for that. If a witness has testified

8 that from what he heard that the Serbs were to be blamed for those

9 killings and if it appears otherwise, why don't the parties just say

10 that's important for us. I mean, why ask -- say the witness -- I mean

11 perhaps that's -- perhaps a bit of comment in an early stage, but you're

12 not doing anything else by putting these questions to a witness, which

13 might be very appropriate if there's a jury in front of you. But drawing

14 the attention by putting all kinds of questions to a witness is not a very

15 effective way, and of course I can say it's too early to emphasise certain

16 matters. But at the same time you're doing it.

17 We'll perhaps further consider how to deal with this kind of

18 matters in the near future.

19 Ms. Loukas, you would like to make a phone call.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. I've listened carefully to what

21 Your Honour has indicated to Mr. Gaynor.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the same, of course, I think the Defence has

23 been addressed in similar issues, what I call the ritual questions. Very

24 often is that really what you wanted to say and then of course you very

25 much emphasise on whatever inconsistencies you find. Of course, if you

Page 7999

1 say, well, it seems very inconsistent to me, I want the Chamber to be

2 aware of that, even whether it would be of any need to draw the attention.

3 But of course the parties are free to do so. But I wonder whether

4 that's -- whether the, I would say the classical common-law vehicle of

5 doing everything through a witness is always, under all circumstances, the

6 most appropriate and most efficient way of dealings with the matters.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, it's the beauty of the hybrid of

8 international criminal justice, the combination of civil law judges,

9 professional judges, no juries, and common-law advocates.

10 JUDGE ORIE: When there's any time left after the telephone

11 conversation, give it some thought, for you as well, Mr. Gaynor, and for

12 you as well, Ms. Loukas, and we'll adjourn until ten minutes to 1.00.

13 We'll have a break for 20 minutes. And I apologise for these procedural

14 issued to be discussed which are not matters which might be of great

15 interest to you, Mr. Mujkic.

16 We adjourn.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, is there any news to report?

20 MS. LOUKAS: No, unfortunately, Your Honour. I wasn't able to

21 come into communication with Mr. Stewart during the break. But one thing

22 I can do is while the witness is coming in, I can hand up the -- that

23 Defence exhibit I referred to earlier.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that doesn't resolve the matter. So we'll

25 have to ...

Page 8000

1 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I can indicate that when court finishes

2 today, I will try to come into contact with Mr. Stewart at that point.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What would be needed for the Prosecution for

4 logistical reasons?

5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the information I have was that the

6 witness was contacted, is available next week. He's awaiting our

7 confirmation call. He has his passport. Victims and Witnesses says they

8 need to know as soon as possible and they will do their best to get him

9 here on Tuesday to appear Wednesday or Thursday.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just to avoid whatever misunderstanding,

11 Ms. Loukas, the fact that the Chamber would rather have the information

12 you're seeking at this moment doesn't mean that if that information would

13 be that it would cause the Defence problems, that with that, the decision

14 would be to deny the request by the Prosecution to call that witness. I

15 just wanted to avoid whatever misunderstanding. But of course we'd rather

16 first know the position of Mr. Stewart. But that's not necessarily a

17 decisive factor.

18 MS. LOUKAS: No, I appreciate that, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that's clear, then, Madam Usher, could you

20 please escort the witness into the courtroom again.

21 Mr. Gaynor, do you think that you would finish within the --

22 MR. GAYNOR: That's very much my aim, Your Honour. Indeed, with

23 that aim in mind and keeping Your Honour's comments in mind, I'd just like

24 to tell you now that I do not intend to play the intercepted conversation

25 that I mentioned before the break. We can, if necessary, put that through

Page 8001

1 a different witness.


3 MR. GAYNOR: And the second procedural point: I think earlier on

4 I referred to the intercepted conversation between Momcilo and Mirko

5 Krajisnik of 15 June as bearing the Exhibit number 369C and 282. That's

6 incorrect. The correct figure is 292.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 MR. GAYNOR: Now, I will continue with this witness, if I may,

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


12 Q. Mr. Mujkic, I want to take you directly to the 6th of August of

13 1992, and I believe that that's the day on which you were arrested; is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who arrested you?

17 A. With the young man that I was in the forest with, who had been

18 wounded and couldn't walk properly, he had started out towards Visoko and

19 while we were in the forest, an excavator or dredger came along to dig the

20 parapets for the Howitzers.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you. The question was: Who

22 arrested you? Not all the circumstances. To the extent Mr. Gaynor would

23 like to know them, he'll ask you. Yes?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the second mistake. I won't

25 make it again. I can give you the name of the person who wounded me, but

Page 8002

1 I was arrested by the Serb forces.


3 Q. Did you attempt to resist arrest?

4 A. I did shoot some 30 bullets, a round of bullets from the

5 Kalashnikov, from the direction that the shooting had come, because the

6 first bullet hit me, the first round of gunfire.

7 Q. After you were arrested, where were you taken?

8 A. They brought in a stretcher and loaded me up onto a heavy-duty

9 vehicle and drove me off to the Rajlovac barracks.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, could you please try to clarify the "from

11 the direction." It's unclear to me the answer.


13 Q. From -- you said that you had been shot and you said from the

14 direction --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- had come. Could you clarify for Their Honours from where the

17 shooting had come?

18 JUDGE ORIE: No. That's not my question. The question was: You

19 said you fired some 30 bullets. Is that correct? In what direction did

20 you fire them?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the direction that the

22 fire -- they were firing at me from, because I had entered an ambush.


24 MR. GAYNOR: I understand, Your Honour.

25 Q. Now, you said you were detained at the Rajlovac barracks. Where

Page 8003

1 specifically in the Rajlovac barracks were you detained?

2 A. All I know is that they took me in, that there was military police

3 all over the place, wearing the white belts and shoulder straps, diagonal

4 shoulder straps, as worn by the former JNA military police. So they were

5 wearing that kind of uniform. The military police, the Serbian military

6 police, yes.

7 Q. So is it right that you were in the military police building in

8 Rajlovac barracks?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, while you were in that building, were you mistreated in any

11 way?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you explain to Their Honours any specific incident of

14 mistreatment which resulted in physical injury to you.

15 A. The first man who entered the cell was Mile Stojanovic, and he

16 just took down my particulars, although we knew each other, but he had to

17 do this officially. And later on, at about 12.00, around midnight, 2400

18 hours, a man I didn't know came in, wearing a military uniform of the

19 olive-green type. He wasn't a policeman. He was wearing an army uniform.

20 He had a pencil and paper with him. And he asked me to draw my house for

21 him and the orchard tree where I had hidden the gold -- buried the gold

22 and money. When I didn't want to do that, when I refused and was on the

23 stretcher, he tied my hands up to the stretcher, sat on my stomach, took a

24 grenade out of his pocket and hit my teeth. And then he put the bomb, the

25 hand-grenade in my mouth and shut my jaw and I heard something crack. And

Page 8004

1 I was left with the bomb in my mouth. But it wasn't an original bomb. If

2 it had been I would have spat it out and we could have both been blown up.

3 But it was a training -- the type of training bomb or hand-grenade that

4 actually didn't explode.

5 Q. I'd like to take you now a few hours after that incident, the

6 early morning of the 7th of August, 1992. Is it right that you were

7 visited by a number of men?

8 A. Yes. That was my third visit, the third visit to my cell that

9 night. It was towards morning, towards dawn, on the 7th of August.

10 Major Vlasto Apostolski came in. He was the commander of the military

11 police of the Rajlovac brigade and three men came in after him. He

12 introduced them and said first: This is the Nad vojvoda, or supra leader.

13 And then the other two were Mirko Krajisnik, I recognised. I didn't

14 recognise the third man. And he didn't introduce him either.

15 He asked me to tell them where Hasan Mujkic was hiding and Husein

16 Mujkic, two brothers, and Hasan Mujkic was the head of the Crisis Staff

17 because he was a policeman before the war. He was an active-duty

18 policeman. They were looking for my son Elvir Mujkic and they were

19 looking for Junuz Mujkic too. So they didn't know where those four men

20 were and he wanted me to tell them. I really didn't know where they were

21 and couldn't say. My jaw was broken, so when I uttered every word, I had

22 to hold my jaw and lift it up. And then they said -- they were afraid and

23 they said: Well, he's literate, so bring him a piece of paper and a

24 pencil and he can write it down. And that was the whole conversation that

25 we had. And Major Vlasto Apostolski came back carrying a pencil and paper

Page 8005

1 and he wanted me to write all this down because I couldn't speak, my jaw

2 having been broken.

3 Q. Do you know the name Nikola Poplasen?

4 A. Not until that time, but the man was the president of the Serbian

5 Republic and President Petric replaced him.

6 Q. Did you see Nikola Poplasen at any time in August 1992?

7 A. I didn't see anybody, just the people who came to my cell. So no.

8 Q. You've spoken there about Mirko Krajisnik. Do you know Momcilo

9 Krajisnik?

10 A. Momcilo Krajisnik, his father, his brother, I know them. We would

11 meet at various funerals, and the last time we attended a funeral was one

12 of his cousins, Vlado Gogic. We were sitting at the same table. Because

13 Vlado's house, the late Vlado, his cousin was close by. I would go by

14 that house every day. I'd say good morning in the morning and good

15 evening in the evening. We respected each other as next door neighbours

16 and we would go to weddings, funerals. They would come to us, we would go

17 to them for any occasion of that kind. And as I said, that particular

18 funeral we were sitting next to each other, at the same table.

19 Q. Could you give Their Honours just an idea of how long you've known

20 the Krajisniks, briefly, number of years.

21 A. Let me explain. Rajlovac and Zabrdje is a dead end road if you

22 look at it towards the town. So I didn't know the families personally.

23 We wouldn't sit around, socialise, drink, or visit each other and that

24 kind of thing. But when there was an exceptional occasion, such as a

25 ceremony -- well, not festivities but ceremonies or official occasions

Page 8006

1 like funerals and things like that, we would meet each other. We would

2 happen to be at the same place at the same time.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was: Since when, even with your

4 explanation of what your --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I grew up there, sir, and I've

6 been there since I was 15 to the present day. I know the whole area. And

7 my house and the Krajisnik house is seven kilometres away.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That answers the question. Thank you.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

10 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

11 Q. You've referred there to the Krajisnik house. Could you confirm

12 that that is the house marked as number 10 on the map on your left. Could

13 you simply say -- just confirm that number 10 is the house of the

14 Krajisniks, orally, please.

15 A. Yes. And I signed that too, and I can guarantee that that's

16 right.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I want to move now to the time when you were

18 released from Rajlovac barracks, well, when you left Rajlovac barracks.

19 Where did you go then?

20 A. From the Rajlovac barracks, on the 9th of August, 1992, they took

21 me to Zica. It was a motel called Zica belonging to the Zica factory,

22 which was turned into a military hospital, a war hospital. So with

23 Rajlovac, five municipalities which remained cut off from the town of

24 Lukavica. And those municipalities are Ilijas, Vogosca, Rajlovac, which

25 was not a municipality before the war, Ilidza and Hadzici. And the

Page 8007

1 location of that particular hospital is on the -- in the Ilidza

2 municipality.

3 Q. Now just returning just very briefly to your detention in Rajlovac

4 barracks. You said that you yourself were obviously victim of this

5 grenade incident. Do you know whether any other detainees in Rajlovac

6 were subject to mistreatment in any way?

7 A. In the evening of the 8th, they brought Husein Gacanovic, a man

8 who was with me, because I had to tell them where the tent was where we

9 were. So they beat him that night. He was the young man who was with me.

10 And they would come in shifts. One shift would beat him and go, then the

11 other shift would turn up. I don't even like to tell you all the nasty

12 things they did to him, but thank God the man is still alive today.

13 As to the rest, I don't know, because there wasn't anybody else in

14 the cell, just the two of us.

15 Q. Now, you've explained that after Rajlovac you went to a hospital.

16 You were in the hospital for some time and then you left the hospital. On

17 what date did you leave the hospital?

18 A. I left the hospital on the 22nd of August. It was a Saturday.

19 Q. And where did you go then?

20 A. Mile Stojanovic came, a driver, and two policemen, with a piece of

21 paper signed by Vlasto Apostolski. I think you have that document in your

22 document collection. And he gave permission for Ramiz Mujkic, the

23 prisoner, to be transferred from the Zica hospital to the Planjina kuca

24 prison in Semizovac. And that is what happened.

25 Q. Now, between the hospital and Planjina kuca, did you stop

Page 8008

1 anywhere?

2 A. Yes. We stopped off at the restaurant at -- Sonja's restaurant,

3 and I was lying down in the car, although I wasn't on a stretcher, but I

4 stayed there for half an hour. The driver was smoking a cigarette out in

5 front, and the two policemen and Mile Stojanovic were allowed into the

6 restaurant. When they finished, they came back and took me to Semizovac

7 and plan, also Planjina kuca.

8 Q. Is that Sonja's restaurant marked number 2 on the map of -- on

9 your left? If you could just look at that map, please, confirm that.

10 A. [No interpretation] Da.

11 Q. I'd request that the witness be shown the next exhibit, please.

12 And if the registrar could assign a number, I'd be grateful.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be P378.


16 Q. While that exhibit is being circulated, I'll just note that this

17 is a document headed "Serb Republic of BH, Vogosca Serb municipality." It

18 goes on to say it's dated the 8th of July, 1992, and the first line says:

19 "Pursuant to the decision of the war staff dated 7th of July, 1992, the

20 municipal secretariat for urbanism, property, legal affairs, residential

21 utility affairs and the real estate Cadastre has adopted the following

22 ruling. Number 1, the house of Almas Planja and Miralem Planja, Semizovac

23 is being allocated for use for the Ministry of Justice for the needs of

24 the prison department of Vogosca, Serb municipality.

25 I've just got one question for you, Mr. Mujkic: Is this the

Page 8009

1 location in which you were detained?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I'd like the witness to be shown the next exhibit. This, I

4 believe, is P379.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I can confirm that's P379.


7 Q. Do you recognise this building, Mr. Mujkic?

8 A. Yes. I would rather never to have seen it in my life.

9 Q. And could you tell us what is that building?

10 A. This is the building belonging to Planja. I don't know the man,

11 but he was originally from Foca. He had spent some time in Germany. So

12 that's the man who built this house. It's a family house, his family

13 house. Well, it's richly -- a richly built house. But we were on the

14 first floor.

15 Q. Thank you. And from -- sorry, Mr. Mujkic. From what date until

16 what date were you detained in that house?

17 A. I was detained in that house from the 22nd of August until the

18 27th of October.

19 Q. And how many other people, give an approximate figure, if you can-

20 were detained in that house?

21 A. When they brought me there to that house, there were about a

22 hundred and thirty, 120, 130 people there already. The number varied.

23 Because people would be brought in from different sides, five or six of

24 them. And then when they dug trenches at Zuc, people would be killed. So

25 it varied from 120 to 150. Then there were private exchanges and people

Page 8010

1 would be taken off. And they did to them what they did. We didn't --

2 they didn't report back to us. But there were always more than 120

3 people, I would say.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, before you proceed, do we find this as

5 one of the detention facilities in schedule C?

6 MR. GAYNOR: It is, Your Honour. In fact, I believe, due to

7 several different references by different witnesses to this detention

8 facility, it's actually listed twice.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's listed twice.

10 MR. GAYNOR: If you look at Vogosca municipality, 33, 33-1 and

11 33-3, both refer to this detention facility.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I found them. Yes. I was still on the wrong

13 municipality. We moved now over the borders.

14 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 MR. GAYNOR: This detention facility in English language is

17 referred to as Planjina kuca, Planja's house, Planjina's house. There

18 several different spellings of this location, just for Your Honour's

19 information.

20 Now, I'd request that the witness be given the next exhibit. This

21 exhibit is headed "Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serb

22 municipality of Vogosca, prison unit." It's dated the 3rd of the 9th,

23 1992. It says: "According to the records of the prison office the

24 following persons are detained in the prison on 3rd of the 9th of 1992"

25 and at the very end it's signed by prison warden Branko Vlaco.

Page 8011

1 Mr. Mujkic --

2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, just in relation to that, Your Honour, my

3 version of the document is not signed. I don't know if Mr. Gaynor has a

4 version of the document that's signed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that we all have the same -- oh, he said --

6 yes. It says prison warden, Branko Vlaco.

7 MR. GAYNOR: I misspoke. You're right, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It has been corrected.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Well, of course, Your Honour -- yes, Your Honour.

10 Just the usual indication in relation to a document that's not signed.

11 But we can take that up at a later date.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

13 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number will be P380 and P380.1 for the

14 English translation.

15 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Mujkic, what is this a list of?

17 A. This is a list of persons detained in Plano's house or Planjina

18 kuca. My name is towards the end because I arrived with the last of them.

19 And there are a couple of people from the place where Planjina kuca is

20 located. There were 12 people from Onahona [phoen], which is a locality

21 above Sarajevo, up above the city, to the north of Sarajevo. So it's not

22 territory belonging to Vogosca or this part of Rajlovac either. And most

23 of the people were people from Gornja and Donja Bioca, the ones that

24 remained. And among them there were a couple of people -- for example,

25 there was a man who was from Doboj, and he came -- went -- he was on the

Page 8012

1 way to Sarajevo on his bicycle to buy some cooking oil. And he was picked

2 up and brought there. But otherwise, mostly they were people from the

3 Ilijas municipality and the villages of Gornja and Donja Bioca.

4 Q. Now, just -- I note there that at number 131 appears the name

5 Ramiz Mujkic, which is a reference to you; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, did you have an opportunity to just review the names on this

8 list between Sunday and Monday?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And just reconfirmation: Could you just tell Their Honours what

11 the ethnicity is of these people?

12 A. People listed here with the exception of three people, they were

13 all Muslims, all of Muslim ethnicity. One of those three was a Croat. I

14 saw another name here, that of Zoran Blagojevic. But he was a prison

15 guard, in actual fact. And in his spare time, he happened to injure

16 someone. There was a settling of accounts and the other man was wounded.

17 He was brought in for just one night but he spent the night on the floor

18 up above and was taken to Kula. It appeared that he had actually killed

19 this other man. I can't confirm that, but his name is mentioned there.

20 But he was in fact a prison guard. He was a young man, highly

21 communicative.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mujkic, I want to talk about work obligations of

23 prisoners at Planjina kuca. Is it right that some prisoners were taken

24 out of the house in order to perform work obligations?

25 A. Everybody who was able to work, went. I'm the only person who,

Page 8013

1 during those two months and five days, did not go out anywhere, because I

2 was lying down. I had been wounded and I wasn't able to move. And there

3 were some ten elderly persons who were not fit to work. They didn't go

4 either. All the rest went to either dig trenches at Zuc or cut down trees

5 in the forest or carry the logs up to the story above. Anyway, the

6 building was empty during the day mostly and at night everybody would be

7 brought back to Planjina kuca.

8 Q. Now, you said that everyone would be brought back. Were there

9 some instances in which people who left for work duty did not in fact

10 return at the end of the day?

11 A. Yes. That did happen. Unfortunately, many people were killed at

12 Zuc, because they were told to dig communicating trenches right up at the

13 front line of the Bosnian army and they were hit doing that. So a lot of

14 people were killed.

15 Q. I think that in the list over the weekend you identified a number

16 of names of people who -- who did not come back after being taken away for

17 trench-digging duties. Now, there's no need to go through the precise

18 names, but could you give Their Honours an idea of how many people went

19 for trench-digging duties and did not return to Planjina kuca.

20 A. It wasn't just one day, but on one day, one person would be

21 killed, another day, two people. On one particular day, five people were

22 killed on that single day. And there was a Vojvoda Bozur who originally

23 came from Vogosca who was killed and then at Zuc five people were killed.

24 Whether they were sent as a human shield or whether they were killed in

25 some other way, I don't know, because I wasn't up there.

Page 8014

1 Q. Now, what personnel were employed as guards at Planjina kuca? Can

2 you describe who they were? Not their names; simply the -- what -- who

3 they were in generic terms.

4 A. They were of Serb ethnicity. There was a Montenegrin among them.

5 I never said that a whole people were the same or equal. There were good

6 people, of course, and the gentleman mentioned here as a prisoner, he

7 never failed to come up to me and give me a cigarette. Zoran Blagojevic,

8 for example. And this Montenegrin, he would always ask me whether they

9 were coming in to dress my wounds. If he had a cigarette he would bring

10 it in to me. But they were in a crisis too. They did have the money but

11 they didn't have cigarettes to buy. So their conduct was relatively

12 proper while I was there, so I can't tell lies and say they weren't.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, just moving on to instances where

14 detainees were mistreated. Do you recall any specific incidents, and if

15 you do, could you just take -- describe for Their Honours any specific

16 incident of mistreatment at Plano's house. If you need time for this, you

17 will have time.

18 A. No. I don't need anything. No, I don't need time. I just said

19 that these people were quite proper in their conduct, the ones who were

20 guards. But the problem was Friday evening, Saturday evening, because the

21 Chetniks coming in from Serbia had a weekend, came for the weekend. And

22 they would come in drunk at around midnight. They were sort of weekend

23 Chetniks. And then they would take it out on us. They would beat us. I

24 know we don't have much time, but perhaps I could give you an illustration

25 of the inhumane conduct and what they made us do. And this happened every

Page 8015

1 Friday and Saturday, not Sunday, because on Sundays they would leave and

2 go home. But Fridays and Saturdays we were terrified like sheep before

3 the slaughter.

4 Q. You said that you could give an illustration of inhumane conduct.

5 I think Their Honours would just appreciate one or two incidents of

6 specific inhumane conduct, if you could address them to the Judges,

7 please.

8 A. I can tell you about that. It's the whole truth. The man who did

9 this is still alive, thank God, but it was a general rule that if some

10 unknown person from outside came in and if the warden came in, we'd all

11 have to get up, whether we were asleep or not, and then there was a circle

12 that we made around him. It was always a room with 120 people in it.

13 Anyway, a group of weekend Chetniks came in and they were looking around,

14 and they used their rifle butts to hit people. And one of them said to

15 Mirsad Sehic, a man called Mirsad Sehic: Are you hungry? And he looked

16 at him and he said: Yes. Are you hungry? I'm asking you. And the man

17 said: Yes, I am. He took a tin, which we used as an ashtray to put our

18 cigarettes out. He threw the butts, cigarette butts out of that ashtray

19 then he said: Go on, eat. They told to him eat the cigarette butts that

20 were in the ashtray. And he said: Fuck your balija mother. Eat it.

21 The man took two of the cigarette ends and started chewing them.

22 Now, you judge for yourselves whether this was reasonable. When this

23 young man tried to swallow the cigarette ends, he wasn't able to swallow

24 them, and this other Chetnik said: Well, let the man drink something. He

25 can't eat these dry cigarette ends. And then he said he said to the other

Page 8016

1 man: Take your pants off. The man took his pants off. And I don't like

2 to say what happened. But he said: Do a blow job and wet your throat.

3 And to make the tragedy even worse, his father was there and all the man

4 could do was drop down to the floor.

5 I don't know -- I thought these were not humans. They were

6 inhuman people who had been sent there to be killed. Because I think

7 every state and country would be happy to see the backs of people like

8 that. So that's what I thought. They wanted to get rid of them. But

9 this happened several times. And they always like to think up something

10 that hadn't been thought up before, and the people who thought up these

11 new kinds of torture were considered to be heroes. That's one example.

12 Another example is this: They turned up one night, one evening,

13 and they were looking around and we were standing round in a circle. I

14 was sitting on a table, I wasn't able to get up, and he just said to one

15 of the men: You. You, can you swim? Do you know how to swim? And he

16 said: Yes. And he said: Well, we'll check that out now. And he said to

17 the guard: Open the balcony doors. And you saw the picture of the house.

18 There's a garage down at the bottom. And then the first floor is at one

19 and a half metres above that. And the guard was told to open the door and

20 the man was told to take his clothes off, take his pants off, so he was

21 naked as nature intended, as they say. And then he was told to climb up

22 onto the fence and he told him to jump, to dive down, to see if he could

23 swim. The young man jumped, but he didn't jump head first. He jumped leg

24 first. And there was rubble down at the bottom and he said: You balija.

25 That's not the way you dive into water. So get up onto the fence again.

Page 8017

1 He took his rifle and he told him to make a dive for it, head

2 first. And he said: He knows how to swim. And the young man was covered

3 in blood. All we could do was to watch. We couldn't say anything. And

4 that was what happened.

5 MR. GAYNOR: I would now request that the next exhibit be shown to

6 the witness. And this is an intercepted conversation. And we'd request

7 that this be played in its entirety.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Mujkic, you heard this conversation on Sunday. As you

9 will recall, it caused you some distress. If you need time, just indicate

10 that.

11 A. No. On Sunday I really had no idea what would be said.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be exhibit number?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the intercept would get Exhibit

14 number P381. The transcript would get Exhibit number P381.A. And the

15 translation gets Exhibit number P381.A.1

16 [Intercept played]

17 JUDGE ORIE: I do not -- I do not hear any translation at this

18 moment. Mr. Gaynor --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Stop for one second the tape to be played.

21 I didn't hear any English translation. That means that neither

22 English nor the French transcripts will contain the text of this

23 intercept. So therefore, could we restart. Could we receive English

24 translation, so that it will then also be translated into French. I can't

25 control that, but ... Could we restart it.

Page 8018

1 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

2 [Intercept played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover].

4 "Bakir ALISPAHIC: Hello.

5 Ljubisa: Yes. Please go ahead.

6 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Is it Mrki?

7 Ljubisa: No, this is Ljubisa.

8 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Well, Ljubisa, is Mrki there? What's up there?

9 Ljubisa: Nothing. Who is that?

10 Bakir ALISPAHIC: This is Bakir.

11 Ljubisa: Oh, Bakir.

12 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Where is Mirko?

13 Ljubisa: He was here a moment ago. He went out. He will come in

14 a minute. I think that he's somewhere in front of the door. Hang on a

15 second, please.

16 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes.

17 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Hello.

18 Bakir ALISPAHIC: It's Bakir. What's up? Where are you? How are

19 you?

20 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Are you all right?

21 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Damn, I'm not all right.

22 Mirko KRAJISNIK: So what happened?

23 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Well, I got worried.

24 Mirko KRAJISNIK: What happened? Did he die, damn it?

25 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes, he did. They were fighting but they could

Page 8019

1 not, damn it.

2 Mirko KRAJISNIK: One woman said to me -- so I was telling her not

3 to talk a lot before these people because he had always been honest and

4 surely I'm afraid that someone of the people took this --"

5 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me. Mr. Gaynor, I do not receive any French

6 translation on the French channel. And since for the completeness of the

7 records of the -- in English and in French, we really need to have all

8 languages there. On the French channel I heard B/C/S rather than any

9 translation in French. So could we perhaps -- I apologise, Mr. Mujkic,

10 but we have some technical problems with the translation. Could we

11 restart again.

12 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour.

13 [Intercept played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

15 "Bakir ALISPAHIC: Hello.

16 Ljubisa: Yes. Please go ahead.

17 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Is it Mrki?

18 Ljubisa: Yes [as interpreted]. Ljubisa.

19 Bakir ALISPAHIC: What's up there?

20 Ljubisa: Who is that?

21 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Bakir.

22 Ljubisa: Oh, Bakir.

23 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Where is Mirko?

24 Ljubisa: He was here a moment ago. He went out. He will come in

25 in a minute. I think that he is somewhere in front of the door. Hang on

Page 8020

1 a second.

2 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes.

3 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Hello. Oh, Bakir.

4 Bakir ALISPAHIC: How are you?

5 Mirko KRAJISNIK: How are you? Are you all right?

6 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Damn, I'm not all right.

7 Mirko KRAJISNIK: So what happened?

8 Bakir ALISPAHIC: He got me worried.

9 Mirko KRAJISNIK: What happened? Did he die, damn it?

10 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes, he did. They were fighting. But they

11 could not, damn it. This woman said to me --"

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no interpretation. I cannot

13 hear anything.

14 [Intercept played]

15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

16 [As read]

17 "Mirko KRAJISNIK: You know I was telling her not to talk a lot

18 because of these people. They'd always been honest and surely I'm afraid

19 that some of these people to -- excuse me.

20 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Let me just answer this. Well, I don't know

21 Mirko. I really feel sorry for him, as if he were my brother.

22 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Me too.

23 Bakir ALISPAHIC: He was a good man, you know.

24 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Real good man.

25 Bakir ALISPAHIC: I called you yesterday to tell you.

Page 8021

1 Mirko KRAJISNIK: You know, well, damn it. I went up there for --

2 what's it called?

3 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Jasenk --

4 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Jasenkovic. That guard is Haris Jasenkovic. He

5 is the treatment [as interpreted] of this state security. They have to

6 carry out some investigation.

7 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Well, Kijac and other others eat shit.

8 Mirko KRAJISNIK: I don't know who it was. Believe me, though,

9 the guys from Rogatica.

10 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Really?

11 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Not here. I was left that [as interpreted]. I

12 asked yesterday. That guy Mladic was supposed to come last night. I told

13 Momo that it should be unconditionally solved and that he had to meet your

14 people today. Some commission and I don't know who else was supposed to

15 come on behalf of the SDA party to talk. As they are supposed to -- so

16 they went to meet them and I will call later to check what happened, you

17 know.

18 Bakir ALISPAHIC: So in Rogatica, but not here?

19 Mirko KRAJISNIK: No, not here. Up there. That's why I went.

20 Believe me, I went three times, but it's hard to talk to those people up

21 there. Everybody wants to carry out something on his own. That's it.

22 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Mirko.

23 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Yes.

24 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Several days ago your godfather [as interpreted]

25 went to see him. I mean Ramiz Mujkic.

Page 8022

1 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Ramiz Mujkic?

2 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes.

3 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Which godfather?

4 Bakir ALISPAHIC: He's the brother of Esma. You know her, the one

5 who used to work in the army.

6 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Yes. But what do you mean, 'godfather'?

7 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Godfather. I asked you the other day when you

8 were absent.

9 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Okay, it was Nikola.

10 Bakir ALISPAHIC: So I believe that he went to visit him there. I

11 asked him to do that.

12 Mirko KRAJISNIK: To visit who?

13 Bakir ALISPAHIC: This Ramiz.

14 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Ah, the guy who was --

15 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Wounded.

16 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Okay. Wounded. Good.

17 Bakir ALISPAHIC: So please, what could we do in order to give

18 that man out? He would lose his leg. Remember his father, he also lost

19 his leg.

20 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, see, we have arranged an exchange for

21 him.

22 Bakir ALISPAHIC: His son was killed.

23 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Really?

24 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes, I swear to God. So, please, he is the only

25 one left.

Page 8023

1 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Listen, please. I know that we have agreed on

2 this exchange, but those exchanges have been taking place in such a

3 wishy-washy manner that, believe me, I am ashamed. People get you

4 involved. I was involved accidentally. Not as the commission, but

5 everybody comes here expecting I can help them with something and because

6 of Momo and, I don't know, because of me; I know some people. And then

7 you agree on everything. Believe me, I have not learnt in my life to

8 agree on something that I could not carry out immediately. I cannot

9 understand that. And every time here someone is hiding behind something

10 it's easy to say shooting, whether or not one of the other side is the

11 easiest [as interpreted]. Wouldn't you say they were shooting?

12 Whatever. They could not come. That's not right, my friend.

13 Bakir ALISPAHIC: So what can we do as far as Ramiz is concerned?

14 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, I will tell you. I mean, I will not

15 interfere in that, but they told me that some exchange was agreed for

16 Ramiz.

17 Bakir ALISPAHIC: When was it arranged?

18 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, I heard that before I went for a trip I

19 left the day before yesterday.

20 Bakir ALISPAHIC: See the man is still here.

21 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, I know he is. With the exchange should --

22 it involves 73 men from Ilidza and those from Mabzeran [phoen] did not

23 take place. So, something should have happened in Hadzici today, but it

24 did not. Then Ilijas and Breza. I was calling that guy Filip Vukovic up

25 there to call me so I could tell people there was no connection and they

Page 8024

1 did not answer the phone. A big exchange was arranged, but nothing

2 happened. It was agreed that guy Prazina, what was his name, this young

3 man, for a guy here, a corpse for a corpse, and even that was not done.

4 That's horrible. Believe me, I swear.

5 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Well, I don't know.

6 Mirko KRAJISNIK: There is this other neighbour of mine, Cuprija.

7 I agreed on an exchange with him and I really have to carry out what was

8 agreed upon. You see what I'm saying. I mean, here, but I cannot do it.

9 I do not have this kind of experience. They tell me to go to the Butmir

10 bridge, to the Butile bridge, where we did an exchange for those six

11 persons, but nobody is there. People simply start hiding. They do not

12 answer the phone when you're persistent, damn it.

13 Bakir ALISPAHIC: I don't know, I would ...

14 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, you check for this guy, Mujkic, and check

15 what is going on, so why it came to a standstill. Well, you know, so

16 perhaps there is somebody on your side who could arrange it.

17 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Well, I want to tell you there is somebody.

18 People from Trnovo will call me tonight.

19 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Yes.

20 Bakir ALISPAHIC: There are many detainees up there.

21 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Who? Serbs, or Muslims as well?

22 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Both.

23 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Both?

24 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Well, yes. So let us solve this.

25 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, I was up there yesterday, I mean

Page 8025

1 concretely, since Filip asked me to do him a favour, that guy Karkin, to

2 go there to check, to agree with our people to exchange as many people as

3 possible. It is not possible to endure this any longer and people are

4 getting killed.

5 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Of course, why are you going to check with this?

6 [as interpreted].

7 Mirko KRAJISNIK: I'm really sorry about this Kalibri, damn it.

8 Bakir ALISPAHIC: This, believe me, is just as if he were my

9 brother.

10 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Oh.

11 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Everybody loved him.

12 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Milan Plakolovic came to see me yesterday, but I

13 was not there. He was asking for me up there. They probably didn't want

14 me to tell him, and they certainly would not tell me. They said "Mirki"

15 from up there. They do not know that I kept in touch. And this woman

16 said to me, I don't know how to tell you this. I felt as if she poured

17 boiling [as interpreted] water on me.

18 Bakir ALISPAHIC: I am truly sorry.

19 Mirko KRAJISNIK: He was an extremely honest man, believe me. So

20 was he buried there in Sarajevo?

21 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes, he was.

22 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Does his family know?

23 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Nobody knows. Well, his father knows. They are

24 here.

25 Mirko KRAJISNIK: And what about his wife?

Page 8026

1 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Let me tell you, his father had two heart

2 attacks and God knows how he will end up. This is really very sorrowful.

3 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Did you check anything about Djino?

4 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Somebody was coming to the barracks.

5 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Viktor Bubanj.

6 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Viktor Bubanj.

7 Mirko KRAJISNIK: I know. One young man was coming, Milicevic.

8 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Allegedly he is not there because he called me.

9 Are you talking about Bato?

10 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Yes, Bato.

11 Bakir ALISPAHIC: He said to me he's not there. Well, that's it.

12 Mirko. Now, that's how it is.

13 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Oh, damn.

14 Bakir ALISPAHIC: I asked some people here were in Dobrinja

15 today.

16 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Yes.

17 Bakir ALISPAHIC: To try to check it there.

18 Mirko KRAJISNIK: And then how come that we cannot do it? There

19 is one young guy. He got killed in Dobrinja, and he was probably digging

20 trenches and a shell killed him. And now you cannot exchange a dead man,

21 I say. And you cannot exchange a dead man.

22 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Well, who is that?

23 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well one guy, Vukicevic. Right here from my

24 village. He had an apartment there. Sorry. Sorry. Vukic.

25 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Where is he now?

Page 8027

1 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, he was buried in front of the hospital

2 somewhere in Dobrinja. I don't know where in that hospital he's buried [as

3 interpreted]. Yes. Somewhere there in front. It was on the 13th and I

4 asked to check whether there were some Muslims. And he is dead, if there

5 is an equivalent. If they need a live person, it doesn't matter. You

6 know what it means. It was their only son.

7 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Yes.

8 Mirko KRAJISNIK: He stayed in his apartment to keep it. They

9 picked him up and sent him to dig trenches, and that's what happened. You

10 get killed and that's it. Life is the cheapest thing in the world.

11 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Of course, it seems to me that nobody values

12 life any more.

13 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Of course.

14 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Nobody.

15 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Well, let me tell you. After I talk tonight I

16 will talk to you tomorrow regarding this Jasenkovic. As soon as I check

17 about this Mujkic, I will let you know.

18 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Okay. Do that, please.

19 Mirko KRAJISNIK: All right.

20 Bakir ALISPAHIC: Bye-bye, kid. Bye.

21 Mirko KRAJISNIK: Cheers. Farewell. Bye."


23 Q. Mr. Mujkic, that intercept appears to refer to you and to your

24 son. Could you tell the Judges --

25 A. Yes.

Page 8028

1 Q. -- when -- do you know whether your son is dead?

2 A. My son is registered as a missing person. There are 16 persons

3 from Ahatovici about whom we don't know where their bones are even. One

4 of them is my son. So I don't know anything of his fate. I don't know

5 where his bones are.

6 Q. Did anyone confirm to you in 1992 whether he was alive or dead?

7 A. No. No. No document was given to me. And in the records, he is

8 still registered as a missing person. In order to be declared dead, there

9 has to be a paper, a document, on the basis of which he would be declared

10 dead.

11 Q. I've just got two more questions for you. First is: Can you tell

12 the Judges the impact of that not knowing about your son has had on you

13 personally?

14 A. It's a very hard question. I'll try to give you an answer.

15 Though you're all human beings. You will understand me. There is no

16 radio in my house. We play no music in the house. Every religious

17 holiday, when the family is supposed to gather together, we weep. Every

18 wedding is a day of weeping, because my wife and I are like two tree

19 stumps now. But according to any logic, we should be playing with our

20 grandchildren now. My sister's house is across the street from mine. My

21 mother lives in it now. She is 80 years old and she always needs some

22 kind of help. Whenever I go to see her, I always expect my Elma and Edim,

23 my sister's children, that they call out to me and say: Uncle. But

24 they're no longer there. So you can conclude what kind of a life I live.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mujkic.

Page 8029

1 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, we have no further questions.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mujkic, I would have one question for you at this

4 stage before we adjourn, and that is the following: You told us about the

5 mass graves marked 3, 4, and 5 on the map. You told us that in one of

6 these mass graves, 16 bodies were found. Were they ever identified?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the bodies that were exhumed

8 from all the mass graves, including the mass grave in Sokolina. All these

9 bodies were identified except for two. Two men from Bratunac who were

10 buried at the cemetery in Visoko where the exhumation was carried out. And

11 they were buried there and marked as "NN." All the persons killed from

12 the settlement of Ahatovici were identified.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Yes. And my next question related to

14 this one would be: You told us that in Ahatovici most of the population

15 was Muslim. Were any of the identified bodies Serb or Croat, or of

16 another ethnicity than Muslim ethnicity?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. Mr. Mujkic,

19 unfortunately, as perhaps it has been told to you already, this Chamber is

20 not sitting the coming days, and I do understand, but please correct me

21 when I'm wrong, Mr. Gaynor, that you'll return at a later date in order to

22 be cross-examined by counsel for the Defence.

23 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour. We don't -- are not

24 entirely sure when the Defence wants to do that. It might be a matter of

25 liaison between the witness and VWS and the Defence.

Page 8030

1 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Precisely, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So we do not know exactly yet when that will be, but,

3 as I would say in every court, both parties have the right to put

4 questions to you. So when you return, the Defence will put questions to

5 you as well. Meanwhile, I'd like to instruct you not to speak with anyone

6 about the testimony you have given and the testimony you still have to

7 give once you return to The Hague. I understand that perhaps it's not

8 easy to do that. Usually it's only for one day and then you return in

9 court. This might be for a longer period. But I nevertheless have to

10 instruct you that this is not a subject for conversation with whomever.

11 Mr. Mujkic, so we'd like to see you back at a date still unknown.

12 I can -- yes.

13 MR. GAYNOR: Just to clarify the record. I just want to reassure

14 Mr. Mujkic: There won't be any contact between the Defence and you before

15 you come back. It will be done through the Tribunal.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll hear when you -- and I take it that --

17 take care of your personal situation as well, as when to come.

18 Mr. Mujkic, so therefore usually I thank witnesses for having come to

19 The Hague, and that's usually at the very end of their testimony. I'd

20 like to thank you for having come to The Hague this first time and expect

21 you to be back, and I'm fully aware that it would have been better if you

22 would have had to come only once to The Hague and not two times.

23 Apologies for that, but I can't change it at this moment.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no problem. I will come

25 whenever necessary. Because it is in my interest for the truth to be

Page 8031

1 revealed and to give evidence about the situation that unfortunately did

2 take place. I will come whenever you summon me.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

4 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Mujkic out of the

5 courtroom.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE ORIE: For the parties, we'll not sit tomorrow, we'll not

8 sit the day after tomorrow. If there are no procedural issues to be

9 raised at this moment -- or are there any?

10 MS. LOUKAS: Just very quickly, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because the interpreters, we have stolen

12 already ten minutes of their time.

13 MS. LOUKAS: And that's why I propose to do it very quickly,

14 Your Honour. I can indicate that while we've been in court, Ms. Dixon has

15 spoken to Mr. Stewart and he has indicated he will be able to deal with

16 that additional witness next week. I think apparently his words were he's

17 not happy but he's fine with it, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then --

19 MS. LOUKAS: And the other aspect, of course, Your Honours, as a

20 housekeeping matter, is I did raise on the 4th of October in court the

21 question of my seeking to withdraw on the basis of inadequate time given

22 to the Defence and issues of inadequate resources and inequality of arms.

23 Your Honours will be aware, of course, that I filed that withdrawal --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you were so friendly to send a copy of

25 your filing to me.

Page 8032

1 MS. LOUKAS: And I just wanted to ensure -- to place that on the

2 record that I'd also copied it to Your Honours and Your Honours have

3 received that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have received that.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then the only thing I still have to do, and it takes

7 us perhaps one and a half or two minutes, is to give an oral decision on

8 the admission of the transcripts of Witness 629 into evidence under Rule

9 92 bis. The Prosecution sought to tender into evidence, pursuant to Rule

10 92(D) bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. The transcripts of

11 Witness 629's prior testimony in the Brdjanin case in relation to the

12 events in the municipality of Kljuc. In its response of the 18th of

13 October, 2004, the Defence has stated no objection in relation to the

14 admission of Witness 629's evidence but has indicated that it wishes to

15 cross-examine this witness. The Prosecution, at transcript page 5604, has

16 agreed that the -- that cross-examination of this witness would be

17 appropriate should his evidence be admitted. The Chamber has examined

18 this material for compliance with the tests for admission under Rule 93

19 bis and is satisfied that it meets the requirements set out in that Rule.

20 Notwithstanding the name of the accused appears in this evidence at

21 transcript pages 11445, 11453, 11455, 11485, 11486, and 11487. The

22 Chamber does not consider that these references can be interpreted as

23 relating to the acts and the conduct of the accused. However, taking into

24 account the submissions of the parties and the nature of the evidence as a

25 whole, the Chamber deems it appropriate to call Witness 629 for

Page 8033

1 cross-examination. And that's what will happen next week.

2 We'll adjourn until next Monday. Mr. Registrar, could you guide

3 us as to the time and the courtroom.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: At a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, this same

6 courtroom, number 1. We stand adjourned.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of

9 November 2004, at 2.15 p.m.