Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9173

1 Thursday, 2 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 I am informed that the parties have met yesterday in the afternoon

11 and that a kind of agreement has been reached on when to cross-examine

12 Mr. Mandic. Of course, before we could move to any scheduling in that

13 respect, I think that it's for the Defence to make an application.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour. In effect, it's -- I

15 understand -- I -- we agreed that I would speak first. In a sense, it's a

16 joint application, I think, reflecting the agreement which we reached,

17 which is, of course, subject -- we're requesting the Trial Chamber's

18 endorsement of the proposals which we have agreed between ourselves. And

19 the -- what is proposed, Your Honour, is this: That the Court,

20 immediately after dealing with this matter now, if the Court approves our

21 agreement, that the hearing should be adjourned until Monday, and on

22 Monday, the witness Mujkic, who has been down for some days, as scheduled

23 for Monday, should be dealt with. That's cross-examination only in

24 relation to that witness, as a Rule 92 bis witness. That on Tuesday, and

25 I understand that it is feasible to schedule the hearings for the rest of

Page 9174

1 that week, leaving aside Wednesday, which is a plenary session for Your

2 Honours and Your Honours' colleagues, that it's possible to schedule the

3 case for afternoons, that we should then begin cross-examination of

4 Mr. Mandic on Tuesday afternoon and continue -- the expectation is that

5 Mr. Mandic would, well, certainly then continue into Thursday and almost

6 certainly into at least a sizeable chunk of Friday. But with the

7 intention and expectation then that it would be possible to conclude

8 Mr. Mandic's cross-examination within those three days. And then the

9 following week, which is the last week before the recess, that the witness

10 Mr. Trbojevic would attend first thing on Monday, would give his evidence

11 in chief in the conventional way and be cross-examined in the -- well, I

12 say the conventional way. See how the cross-examination goes. But

13 according to the conventional procedure.

14 Your Honour, that's the agreement, subject to Your Honours'

15 endorsement that the Prosecution and Defence have reached. Apart from

16 that, it does include -- of course, it's implicit in that that the

17 Prosecution are dropping their contention, if this is agreed and we go

18 ahead on this basis, would then not pursue their contention that we have

19 waived our right to cross-examination. They're not going to turn up on

20 Tuesday and then persist with that point. That's implicit in this.

21 Otherwise, we understand every -- each party has to reserve its position

22 as to any contingencies which may emerge in future. But that's the

23 position as it would be at the moment.

24 I believe that covers it, Your Honour. If Mr. Tieger has anything

25 that I -- well, of course, he will say what he says. If he has anything

Page 9175

1 he believes that I've omitted from what we've agreed, then he can tell us,

2 Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it that Mr. Stewart has presented

4 your agreement correctly?

5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I mean, that's essentially it.

6 The cross-examination will proceed on Tuesday, so in effect, with the

7 adjournment that Mr. Stewart mentioned. So in that sense, we move forward

8 in otherwise the conventional way, as he indicated, and the same with

9 Mr. Trbojevic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. Is there any risk that we would

11 have a similar situation as far as the cross-examination of Mr. Trbojevic

12 is concerned? This is not an encouragement to stop whatever disclosure

13 would accommodate the Defence, but the Chamber would like to know whether,

14 if we start Mr. Trbojevic, that we're not confronted again with a

15 situation -- I'm not saying who's to be blamed for it, but just for our

16 assessment of what will be our schedule until the recess, whether there

17 would be any risk that, as it stands now, whether we would have to expect

18 any further requests for the delay of Mr. Trbojevic, his evidence -- the

19 cross-examination of Mr. Trbojevic.

20 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I see -- I see no practical risk

21 that we would be in the position of saying to the Trial Chamber that we

22 were not able to start and embark upon cross-examination of Mr. Trbojevic.

23 I can't utterly predict the future, Your Honour, but as I stand here, I

24 see no practical risk of that being the position. Of course, Your Honour,

25 with any witness, it's -- it wouldn't be possible for counsel to say,

Page 9176

1 Well, we can never get to the point where cross-examination might have to

2 go over or be continued at a later date. That's always there inherent in

3 the examination of just about any witness.


5 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honour is specifically, I understand,

6 asking me whether there is any practical, significant risk that we'll be

7 in the same position that we were with Mr. Mandic the other day, and Your

8 Honour, I don't see that as matters stand.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So the Chamber expects, unless matters dramatically

10 change, that once the examination of Mr. Trbojevic would start on

11 the 13th, that he would be cross-examined after that.

12 Then, first of all, I should put on the record that we have been

13 in private session yesterday, and perhaps it would have been more

14 appropriate to, at the very end of the session, to move into open session

15 again. But we started this morning in open session. We discussed

16 yesterday in private session several aspects of the cross-examination of

17 Mr. Mandic and related issues.

18 The Chamber, in anticipation to the -- anticipation of, I think I

19 should say, anticipation of the oral application made this morning, the

20 Chamber has already inquired into whether it would be possible to sit in

21 the afternoon next week. There are courtrooms and Trial Chamber II was so

22 kind to swap with us on the 9th, so that we can also sit on the 9th in the

23 afternoon. Because I have understood that it was part of the agreement

24 and part of the wishes of the Defence. Therefore, the joint application

25 is granted. We'll start on the 6th, also in the afternoon, with the

Page 9177

1 cross-examination of Mr. Mujkic. We'll then, on the 7th, the 9th, and

2 the 10th, during three days, the Defence will have an opportunity to

3 cross-examine Mr. Mandic, and we'll then continue with Mr. Trbojevic on

4 the 13th of December.

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, so it is afternoons, apart from the

6 Wednesday, it's afternoons every day that week?

7 JUDGE ORIE: It's afternoons, apart, I think -- let me just see.

8 On Friday I think, it still has to be arranged, but it has been -- we have

9 made inquiries certainly for the 7th and the 9th, and I take it that it

10 will be possible also to sit in the afternoon.

11 MR. STEWART: I hope so, Your Honour, because that was a -- that

12 was an important aspect of the agreement, because -- well, Your Honour can

13 see, if we sit on Friday -- Thursday afternoon and Friday morning,

14 that's --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll further inquire into that. But I take it

16 that a solution could be found.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes. And Your Honour, we express our gratitude to

18 our colleagues and Your Honours' colleagues in Trial Chamber II for

19 adjustments that may inconvenience them. We do appreciate that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said, Mr. Stewart, that Mr. Mujkic was a

21 92 bis witness.

22 MR. STEWART: I thought that was right, Your Honour. But heads

23 are being shaken, as they often are when I say something. Perhaps I'm --

24 well, it doesn't -- well, it's obviously correct to get it right.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I didn't check it, but I do understand

Page 9178












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Page 9179

1 that the cross-examination of Mr. Mujkic is outstanding but that he's not

2 a 92 bis witness.

3 MR. STEWART: That's right, Your Honour. That was just a --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Slip of the tongue.

5 MR. STEWART: Mistake -- well, my tongue represented what was in

6 my brain. I was wrong with what was in my brain.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that has been clarified as well. Is

8 there any --

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the scheduling of travel

11 arrangements for Mr. Mandic has not been finally changed, and of course I

12 also do understand that at this moment, of course, the Prosecution is not

13 in a position to directly contact Mr. Mandic. Should any measure be taken

14 and should we perhaps, because I understand that he is on the premises of

15 the Tribunal, ask Mr. Mandic to come and to explain to him what the

16 situation will be? But Madam Registrar is verifying.

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, while that's happening, may we inquire,

18 because we would understand that given now the relatively short period,

19 that the -- all the normal rules on non-contact and non-discussion while a

20 witness is in the course of his evidence simply apply without

21 qualification.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I see that Mr. Tieger is nodding yes. Does that

23 mean, Mr. Tieger, that the instruction I gave to Mr. Mandic will now be

24 repeated, but now not an open-ended instruction but an instruction for the

25 next week?

Page 9180

1 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. That's what we anticipated, as in

2 the conventional manner.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then first ask for any information to be

4 provided by the Registry on travel arrangements and on the presence of

5 Mr. Mandic on the premises of this Tribunal.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes. Two matters, Your Honour. First dealing with

9 this matter. I think the Court may have been apprised as well about the

10 witness's expression of an interest in returning. We leave that to the

11 Court. We think it should be handled in the conventional way. And that

12 is in the interim. I believe you were apprised of that. That should

13 probably be dealt with directly with the witness.

14 And the second matter is the issue of (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was on my mind. So therefore, Mr. Mandic

18 would return and --

19 MR. TIEGER: No. We -- I think the witness expressed an interest

20 in that. It seems to me the conventional manner of proceeding with a

21 short delay like this would be for the witness to remain here, but we want

22 just to communicate to the Court, as was done yesterday, his expression of

23 that interest. But again, in view of the circumstances, it seems to --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Be appropriate that he remains here and that -- yes.

25 But then, of course, we should --

Page 9181

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please try to find Mr. Mandic

3 and escort him into the courtroom.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 [Witness's counsel entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

7 Good morning, Mr. Tomic. Please be seated.

8 Mr. Mandic, you have become aware yesterday of the opposite

9 positions the parties took in respect of your cross-examination. The

10 parties have further discussed this matter yesterday afternoon, and they

11 have agreed on cross-examination to start on next Tuesday, the 7th of

12 December. The Chamber would like to know whether you could stay until

13 the 7th, then be cross-examined for, as it stands now, for not more than

14 three days. That would be the 7th, the 9th - not on the 8th - and the

15 10th of December. Could you remain in The Hague in order to be

16 cross-examined next week?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber very much appreciates your

19 cooperation and your willingness to stay over the weekend and to be

20 cross-examined next week. Therefore, you're invited to come back to be

21 cross-examined on Tuesday, the 7th of December, in the afternoon, a

22 quarter past 2.00. As it stands now, certainly on the 7th, certainly on

23 the 9th, and presumably also on the 10th, you'll be cross-examined in the

24 afternoon, not in the morning.

25 I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the

Page 9182

1 testimony you have given and you're still about to give. Yesterday it was

2 more or less an open-ended instruction, because of the special

3 circumstances with a certain uncertainty whether you would be called to be

4 cross-examined. Now this matter has been resolved. It's now not an

5 open-ended instruction any more, but it's at least valid until you

6 reappear in this courtroom on the 7th of December.

7 Then we adjourn until the 7th of December -- yes, Mr. Tieger. You

8 have a --

9 MR. TIEGER: I think the witness can be excused, Your Honour. We

10 have one more matter to attend to.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour said adjourned to the 7th.

12 JUDGE ORIE: To. No, the 6th. Yes. That's a mistake. Thank

13 you, Mr. Stewart, for reminding me.

14 Mr. Mandic. You're instructed to reappear on the 7th, in the

15 afternoon. We have another procedural issue to deal with at this moment.

16 You're excused for the moment.

17 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.


19 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] If I may.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If you are speaking, please use the microphone.

21 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] On behalf of my client and in my own

22 name, I would like to thank this Honourable Trial Chamber, OTP, and the

23 learned colleagues from the Defence for a very correct procedure that has

24 encouraged both me and my client to put trust and place trust in this

25 Tribunal. Thank you.

Page 9183

1 JUDGE ORIE: This is an encouraging message for us, and thank you

2 for your kind words. You're excused.

3 [Witness's counsel withdrew]

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

6 MR. TIEGER: (redacted) Your Honour, is what

7 I wanted to raise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd like to do that -- we can do it in open

9 session?

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I believe so.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. (redacted) I take it, will

12 have to be changed, and --

13 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I would suggest -- I've not been through this

14 precise procedure, so I'm a bit at the Court's disposal in that regard,

15 but it seems to me an oral modification (redacted) to

16 the witness, which of course is for his benefit so he doesn't have to show

17 up on the date he was subpoenaed and then remain here until the now

18 anticipated date he would be called, so we could readjust that to the date

19 envisioned by our current schedule, which is Monday, the 13th.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9184











11 Page 9184 redacted. Private session.















Page 9185

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ORIE: I asked Mr. Mandic whether he was in a position to

14 stay until the 7th of December, and it seems that he has not understood

15 that well and that he only understood that he would have to return on

16 the 7th of December. Therefore, I'd like to ask Madam Usher to see

17 whether Mr. Mandic could reappear in this courtroom.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 [Witness's counsel entered court]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, welcome again. Please be seated.

21 I asked you whether you could stay in The Hague until the 7th and

22 whether you could remain in The Hague until the 7th, but nevertheless, I'm

23 informed that there's some confusion and that you understood this to be

24 whether you could return to The Hague on the 7th. Please tell me if your

25 understanding of what I said was different from what I intended to say.

Page 9186

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said I could not stay

2 in The Hague, that I should actually arrive in The Hague on the 7th,

3 because I came here to stay for three days, and actually I've been here

4 for some 10 or 12 days now. I have to charge my batteries again, be with

5 my family, and then return whenever you say. I have picked up all my

6 belongings from the hotel and was told that I was going to go to the

7 Amsterdam airport for Belgrade after this hearing today.

8 Initially I was informed that I was going to stay in The Hague for

9 three days only, and it's been already 12 now. I have to gather my

10 strength, I have to pull myself together to prepare myself for the

11 examination, and I am psychologically not prepared to stay in The Hague

12 for such a long time. I would appeal to you to allow me to return to be

13 with my family, and then come back here for the continuation of my

14 testimony on the 7th. That's how I understood you.

15 I was yesterday informed that I was going to be escorted to the

16 Amsterdam airport right after this hearing.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I'd like to --

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest to the parties that we turn into private

20 session and that we further discuss the matter in the presence of the

21 witness, because he's directly affected by the decision we'll have to

22 take. And perhaps we could then also inform the witness about some

23 elements of what we discussed yesterday.

24 Do the parties agree?

25 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour.

Page 9187

1 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. And, Your Honour, when we go into

2 private session, Your Honour will be inviting any submissions from the

3 parties in relation to this matter?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.

5 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But then I will first start to explain some of the

7 elements that we discussed yesterday and then give an opportunity to the

8 parties to make whatever submissions they would like to make.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tomic, if you speak, please use the microphone.

11 Yes.

12 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I kindly ask

13 you to realise the delicacy of the situation. Over the past few days I

14 have witnessed a very serious psychological condition of this man who had

15 come here to testify about the truth and insisting for him to stay here

16 against his will means exerting additional pressure, psychological

17 pressure, and therefore, I'm afraid that he wouldn't be of any use for the

18 purpose of arriving at the truth. I'm afraid that if you decide for him

19 to stay here, that the Defence and the Prosecution will not be on equal

20 footing. He had come psychologically prepared here --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tomic.

22 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] Please recognise this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tomic, I have no problem that you explain the

24 problems of the witness, but what effect that would have on the equality

25 of arms for the parties is something the parties will discuss.

Page 9188

1 We'll turn into private session.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9189

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE ORIE: On my screen, I see that we're in open session.

5 Mr. Tieger first.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the Court noted some of the issues

7 raised yesterday before we heard from the witness. It seems to me it has

8 been useful to hear the witness's concerns, which indirectly touch upon

9 some of the issues yesterday. We think great weight should be accorded

10 clearly as in every case to the expressions of the witness and the desires

11 of the witness, and we're confident the Court, as it has demonstrated in

12 the past, feels the same way. So, therefore, we would defer to the

13 Court's decision in this matter, in light of the fact it has now had an

14 opportunity to hear from the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Although I would do that in private session, in view

16 of the content of our discussions of yesterday. But, Mr. Stewart, any

17 submissions at this moment?

18 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour. First of all, the -- the

19 Defence, not surprisingly, Your Honour, would take the position that a

20 witness who has had the opportunity, as Mr. Mandic is requesting, to

21 recharge his batteries, as he puts it, and to spend time with his family

22 should, if at all possible, be given that opportunity. First of all, from

23 the specific and, if you like, narrow, though important point of view that

24 the better refreshed Mr. Mandic is before he returns to be cross-examined,

25 the better all round. The Defence would not wish to have a witness who

Page 9190

1 was, as it is obvious he would be, then resentful that he had not been

2 given that opportunity. Mr. Mandic came freely in the first place anyway.

3 So certainly from the point of view of the conduct of the

4 cross-examination, that situation should, if at all possible, be produced.

5 As a matter of principle, Your Honour, Mr. Mandic, I'm not his counsel,

6 but Mr. Tomic is, but we do support what's said, because as a matter of

7 principle, Mr. Mandic is a -- he is a free person. He came to this

8 Tribunal freely. There is a gap in his evidence. He is required to be in

9 court or needed to be in court on the 7th of December. But otherwise,

10 Your Honour, he should have the basic freedom of any person.

11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12 MR. STEWART: He should be accorded the basic freedom of any

13 person to come and go as he pleases and as he can. And it would -- it

14 requires the strongest possible reasons which do not exist in this case

15 before a Trial Chamber should in any way presume to restrict that basic

16 freedom. And certainly the matters which have been touched on in private

17 session, which of course I'm not going to then explore in open session,

18 but they do not justify it. That would be an extraordinary presumptive

19 thing to impose upon somebody like Mr. Mandic, who does not want -- does

20 not himself express and does not want those concerns - that's quite

21 clear - to be dealt with by any restriction upon his freedom. That would

22 be an extraordinary step to take. There is no suggestion that's been made

23 in private, or in open session, that there's any significant danger or

24 risk to the evidence that this witness would then give when he returned.

25 So Mr. Mandic is a free man and should be permitted freely to go back home

Page 9191

1 for the weekend and is of course then expected to come back on Tuesday,

2 and there's not the slightest indication that he won't be back on Tuesday.

3 He came freely in the first place, and there's no reason whatever to doubt

4 that he will be here to be cross-examined on Tuesday.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.

7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

9 MR. TIEGER: Just a small note, Your Honour, to -- that is, that

10 the Prosecution, of course, supports the fundamental principles expressed

11 by Mr. Stewart.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9192











11 Page 9192 redacted. Private session.















Page 9193

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has heard the parties and the Chamber has

12 heard you, Mr. Mandic, on several aspects of the question whether we

13 should ask you to remain in The Hague or whether we would allow you to

14 return to your family and then come back on the 7th of December.

15 The Chamber allows you to return to your family. And you're

16 instructed, as I instructed you before, not to speak with anyone about

17 your testimony already given or still to be given. This includes that you

18 should refrain from any contact with the media. You explained to us that

19 you want to reload your battery in your family situation. I think if you

20 are in the -- in a circle of your family, it will be even easier for you

21 to reload your battery and not to -- and to refrain from any contact with

22 the media.

23 The Chamber also sees that the matter was quite emotional for you,

24 and the Chamber understands why it is.

25 Then, Mr. Mandic, perhaps we should have taken more care not to

Page 9194

1 bring you from one extreme to another, since this might not have been easy

2 for you. Our apologies if we caused any confusion. But looking at the

3 transcript, I think it was just a matter of misunderstanding of my

4 question, and perhaps I should have verified better whether you understood

5 me well.

6 You're excused. I take it that you'll reappear, as you did

7 before, voluntarily next Tuesday. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted) This is a

10 technical matter. You don't have to be concerned about that.

11 You're excused. I would like to see you back next --

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I beg your pardon.


14 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry for intervening which in a sense I am,

15 because I have one further submission, which in this case I suggest ought

16 to be made while Mr. Mandic and his counsel are still here.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's this: That in the light of what

19 has occurred this morning --

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, for scheduling reasons of travelling of

22 the witness, we have two minutes left, before otherwise he misses his

23 plane.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, in the light of everything that's been

25 said this morning and particularly what the witness has said specifically

Page 9195

1 in answer to Your Honour's suggestion of concerns of his position when he

2 returns to Serbia, it's quite clear now that the -- that all the

3 discussion which has taken place in private session yesterday and today

4 should now -- the transcript should be open. There is no justification

5 for that material remaining private. It's all quite clear now.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that, whether the transcript will be

7 redacted in the sense that what has been said in private session should be

8 public. We'll consider that.

9 MR. STEWART: Redacted, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Redacted. Amend -- no, redacted, I mean that where

11 it says private session, that it would then be public again.

12 MR. STEWART: Open. Yes, Your Honour. That's our submission.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll consider that.

14 Mr. Tomic, thank you for your presence.

15 Mr. Mandic, I hope that you have a weekend in which you really can

16 reload your battery, and we'd like to see you back Tuesday in the

17 afternoon. You're excused.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 [Witness's counsel withdrew]

20 [The witness stands down]

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other issue to be raised?

23 MR. TIEGER: Without reviewing the transcript again, Your Honour,

24 I just want to indicate that we oppose counsel's motion. We may get

25 together on that and discuss it while the Court is considering it. I

Page 9196

1 don't know if there will be any need for submissions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If you could please exchange your views on that, see

3 whether that brings any new situation. I mean, it's not that urgent that

4 it should be done today.

5 MR. STEWART: No. I agree, Your Honour. May I just say,

6 depending how far we get with discussions, if then in effect -- it

7 amounts, in practice, we suggest, to an application to justify continuing

8 withholding that material from the public, so we therefore would like, if

9 it comes to it and we can't reach agreement, we would like the opportunity

10 of meeting and making submissions in relation to whatever is suggested to

11 be the justification of continuing to withhold that material from the

12 public. It's a procedural --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will then hear further from the

14 parties. We stand adjourned until the 6th of December.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until next Monday, and the parties will

18 be informed about time and courtroom. Because there seems to be some

19 confusion. The parties will be informed today.

20 Yes, we're adjourned.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.05 a.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

23 December, 2004