Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10821

  1                           Monday, 21 March 2005  2                           [Open session]

  3                           [The accused entered court]

  4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

  6              THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

  7   number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

  9              Before we continue with the examination of the next witness, I'd

 10   like to deliver two oral decisions, one about protective measures and I'll

 11   start with that one.

 12              This is a decision on the Prosecution's motion for protective

 13   measures for Witness 60, KRAJ 60.  The motion, which is partly

 14   confidential, was filed on the 11th of March, 2005.  The motion also refers

 15   to two other witnesses who are not in issue at this time.

 16              The Prosecution requests the Chamber, pursuant to Rules 75 and

 17   79 of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and Evidence, to order the use of a

 18   pseudonym at all times when referring to this witness in the proceedings,

 19   as well as image and voice distortion during testimony.  The motion also

 20   requests private session for those portions of the testimony likely to

 21   reveal the witness's identity.

 22              Since the witness was scheduled to testify today, the Defence

 23   agreed to respond earlier than it was entitled to under the Rules.  The

 24   Chamber heard the Defence's oral submissions on the 18th of March.  These

 25   were followed on the same day by an oral response by the Prosecution.

Page 10822

  1              In its motion, the Prosecution relies in part on a recent UNHCR

  2   report relating to the current security situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina

  3   for witnesses or potential witnesses.  Bosnia and Herzegovina's lack of

  4   ability to ensure the safety of some witnesses is also mentioned.  In the

  5   confidential annex to the motion, the Prosecution sets forth specific

  6   details relating to protective measures sought for Witness 60.

  7              The Defence said that the UNHCR report refers to situations long

  8   past, sometimes as old as three years.  The Defence found the report to be

  9   vague or very general in scope, meaning that the Prosecution should have

 10   specified those risks that concern the witness in question.  The Defence

 11   also said that the content of the report, when considered as a whole, is

 12   actually much more optimistic in its evaluation of the security situation

 13   in Bosnia and Herzegovina than the Prosecution would have us believe.

 14              In private session, the Defence addressed issues specific to

 15   Witness 60, and argued that the basis set forth by the Prosecution for

 16   protection of this witness is too weak to warrant infringement of the right

 17   to a public trial.

 18              The Prosecution replied by emphasizing the role of the UNHCR in

 19   providing security for displaced persons in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the

 20   fact that no other agency is better placed to assess the security concerns

 21   for the witness.  The Prosecution reiterated its position that the report

 22   paints a picture of a relatively serious security situation in Bosnia and

 23   Herzegovina.  The Prosecution also recalled that Rule 75(A) refers not only

 24   to security concerns, but also to the privacy of witnesses.

 25              The law on protective measures has been stated by this Chamber

Page 10823

  1   in recent decisions, in particular, the decisions of the 20th of September,

  2   2004, transcript page 5613 and following, and the 9th of March, 2005,

  3   transcript pages 10192 and following.  The Chamber is mindful that a fair

  4   and public hearing is a right of the accused and is in the interests of

  5   justice.  Therefore, measures concealing the identity of a witness should

  6   be granted only in very limited circumstances, where a witness expresses

  7   fear that is supported by objective evidence showing a real likelihood of

  8   danger or risk to the witness's security.

  9              The Chamber has considered all the submissions of the parties. 

 10   It finds that, without taking into account the general concerns expressed

 11   in the UNHCR report, the fear resulting from the specific circumstances of

 12   this witness is based on objective factors, adequately presented by the

 13   Prosecution.  The requested protective measures, that is, pseudonym, image

 14   and voice distortion, as well as limited use of private session, strike a

 15   balance between his need for protection and the accused's right to a public

 16   trial.

 17              The Chamber therefore grants the motion.

 18              The second decision to be delivered is a decision on the third

 19   batch of 92 bis witnesses.

 20              This is a decision on the third batch of 92 bis witnesses.

 21              I briefly recall that the Chamber is seized of two Prosecution

 22   motions for the admission of 92 bis evidence:  The first was filed on the

 23   6th of June, 2003, the so-called 7th motion, and the second was filed on

 24   the 9th of January, 2004, the so-called 8th motion.

 25              The Chamber described the procedural history of the

Page 10824

  1   Prosecution's Rule 92 bis applications in its decision of the 7th of April,

  2   2004, and I will not repeat it here.

  3              I would like to emphasise that the Chamber has considered only

  4   the material identified by the Prosecution in the an exes to the 7th and

  5   8th motions, as well as in the list of 92 bis witnesses filed on the 24th

  6   of March, 2003.  The Chamber has applied the legal standards set out in the

  7   decision of the 7th of April, 2004.

  8              The parties should be assured that the Chamber has considered

  9   their submissions in every detail.  The Chamber has, as always, checked all

 10   the material proposed for admission, even when the Defence has not raised

 11   any objection to it.

 12              The Prosecution has applied, in a separate motion, for

 13   protective measures in relation to most of the witnesses in this third

 14   batch of witnesses.  Pending a decision on the motion for protective

 15   measures, I will provisionally used the "KRAJ" codes of the witnesses when

 16   referring to them.

 17              I would now ask Madam Registrar to hand out to the parties a

 18   list showing the names of the 92 bis witnesses who are not required to

 19   attend for cross-examination.

 20              I shall first deal with the witnesses in relation to whom there

 21   is either no request for cross-examination, or there is a request for

 22   cross-examination only if the requested redactions or supplementations are

 23   not granted.

 24              In relation to the following five witnesses, their evidence is

 25   admitted in accordance with the Defence's suggestions concerning redactions

Page 10825

  1   and supplementations.  The witnesses are:  Witness 295, Witness 168,

  2   Witness 577, Witness 20, and Witness Barija Trebinjeovic-Mahinic.

  3              I have some brief comments to make in relation to the next five

  4   witnesses:

  5                      Witness 109:  The Chamber admits this witness's

  6   evidence, including the Bosnian statement, which is relevant to the

  7   question of consistency.

  8              Witness (redacted):  The Chamber admits the witness's

  9   evidence.  The admission of transcripts (redacted) is relevant to

 10   the question of consistency.  However, the Chamber advises the Prosecution

 11   to desist from requesting the admission of testimony from (redacted) in

 12   relation to a (redacted) witness, which is essentially cumulative. The Chamber

 13   shares the Defence's concerns in this respect.

 14              Witness 558:  The Chamber admits this witness's evidence subject

 15   to redaction only of the words shown in the handout.  The rest of the

 16   paragraph where these words occur is to be kept in evidence.

 17              Witness 248:  The Chamber admits this witness's evidence with

 18   redactions, as shown in the handout.  Not all the redactions requested by

 19   the Defence have been granted.  Moreover, the witness's Bosnian statement

 20   is admitted.

 21              Witness 86:  The Chamber admits this witness's evidence, subject

 22   to the Chamber's deletions, as shown in the handout.

 23              The evidence of the above witnesses, as modified in the handout,

 24   meets the 92 bis admissibility requirements, and has been admitted.  The

 25   Chamber does not require the appearance of any of the above witnesses.

Page 10826

  1              I now turn to the remaining four witnesses.  The Defence has

  2   submitted that their evidence is not fit for admission without cross-

  3   examination.

  4              The Chamber agrees with the Defence in relation to only one of

  5   these four witnesses, namely Witness 305.  The name and associated material

  6   of this witness is not shown in the handout.  His cross-examination is

  7   permitted because the statement contains passages on the distribution of

  8   weapons.  The cross-examination should therefore focus on that subject. 

  9   However, ancillary questioning will be permitted.  The documents relating

 10   to this witness shall be admitted into evidence - subject to any further

 11   objections - at the time he is heard in cross-examination.

 12              As for the remaining three witnesses, the Chamber finds that the

 13   Defence has failed to establish a sufficient basis to justify cross-

 14   examination, or otherwise exclusion, of their evidence.

 15              The first witness, whose name is Fehim Mesetovic, is deceased. 

 16   The Chamber has decided to admit his evidence subject to certain

 17   redactions.  These are shown in the handout.

 18              The second witness is Witness 122.  The Defence has said that if

 19   the Chamber is not minded to call this witness for cross-examination, a

 20   certain redaction should be made.  The Chamber grants the requested

 21   redaction and further orders an additional redaction as shown in the

 22   handout.

 23              The last witness is Witness 238.  The Defence has said, again,

 24   that if the Chamber is not minded to call this witness for cross-

 25   examination, certain redactions and supplementations to his evidence should

Page 10827

  1   be made.  The Chamber grants these amendments and further orders an

  2   additional redaction, as shown in the handout.

  3              The Chamber requests the Prosecution to submit the material

  4   admitted through this decision, with the appropriate redactions and

  5   supplementations, to Madam Registrar.  In due course, Madam Registrar will

  6   assign exhibit numbers to those items and inform the parties and the

  7   Chamber.  I kindly ask Madam Registrar to file the handout under seal.

  8              This concludes the Chamber's decision on the third batch of 92

  9   bis witnesses.

 10              I add to this decision that the previous oral decision on two

 11   lots of 92 bis witnesses, which were filed on the 10th of December, 2004,

 12   the handout attached to that decision still needs to be filed, where

 13   necessary, under seal.  That has not been done and therefore there could be

 14   confusion as to what exactly is in evidence.

 15              This concludes the delivery of the two decisions.

 16              Mr. Gaynor, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

 17              MR. GAYNOR:  We are ready to call the next witness, Your Honour.

 18              Before the witness comes in, I might want to enlighten Your

 19   Honours as to which parts of his testimony should be held in private

 20   session and which parts should be held in public session.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you -- can you tell us in such a way

 22   that we can do it in open court, because we are still in open session at

 23   this moment.  If not --

 24              MR. GAYNOR:  I think, Your Honour, it would be best to do it in

 25   private session.

Page 10828

 1              JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will turn in to private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10829











11    Pages 10829-10832 redacted. Private session.















Page 10833

  1  (redacted)

  2  (redacted)

  3  (redacted)

  4  (redacted)

  5  (redacted)

  6                           [Open session]

  7                           [The witness entered court]

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness.  Can you hear me in a

  9   language you understand?

 10              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 60, because that's how we will call you,

 12   the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

 13   declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

 14   the truth.  The text is now being handed out to you by Madam Usher.  I'd

 15   like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

 17   the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 18                          WITNESS:  KRAJ 60

 19                           [The witness answered through the interpreter]

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Witness 60.

 21              Witness 60, outside this courtroom, no one is able to see your

 22   face.  Your voice, through this additional microphone, is also distorted,

 23   and we'll call you by the name Witness 60.

 24              It may happen that if there's anything to be discussed which

 25   might identify your identity, the parties will ask to go into private

Page 10834

  1   session.  That means that even the content of your testimony in private

  2   session is not available to the outside world.

  3              I'd like to remind the parties to switch their microphones off

  4   once the witness is speaking.

  5              Mr. Gaynor, you may proceed.

  6              MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

  7                           Examined by Mr. Gaynor:    

  8        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  The first document that will be shown

  9   to you contains your name and your date of birth.  I'd request the

 10   registrar to show the pseudonym sheet to the witness.

 11              Mr. 60, if you could simply confirm with a yes or no that the

 12   name and the date of birth on that sheet refer to you and are correct? 

 13        A.   Yes.   

 14        Q.   Sir, next I would like to show you two statements, one statement

 15   which you gave to Bosnian authorities in June 1992 and a second statement

 16   which you gave to investigators of this Tribunal in October 1998.  Those

 17   statements will be placed in front of you in a moment.

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 19              THE REGISTRAR:  The pseudonym sheet will be marked as

 20   Prosecution Exhibit P549, under seal.

 21              MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, we'd request that the two statements

 22   also be -- well, we're submitting them under seal.  We request that they be

 23   admitted under seal.

 24              JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, they'll have the numbers ...

 25              THE REGISTRAR:  The witness statement dated 4 and 5 October 1998

Page 10835

  1   will be Prosecution Exhibit P550, under seal.

  2              The record dated 10 June 1992 will be Prosecution Exhibit P551,

  3   under seal.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

  5              Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

  6              MR. GAYNOR:    

  7        Q.   Sir, have you had an opportunity yesterday and today to carefully

  8   review both of those statements? 

  9        A.   Yes.   

 10        Q.   Are those statements an accurate record of the events described

 11   in them? 

 12        A.   Yes.   

 13        Q.   Do you wish to make any corrections or clarifications of any kind

 14   at this stage? 

 15        A.   No.  No, I don't.

 16              MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, I propose now to read into the record

 17   a short summary of the evidence of this witness.

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Gaynor.

 19              MR. GAYNOR:  This witness is from Ilijas municipality. 

 20   Following the announcement of the SAO Romanija, the witness heard that

 21   Muslim police officers had been sacked.  Tensions rose.  Serbs began to

 22   occupy elevated positions near the witness's village in April and May 1992. 

 23   A JNA convoy passed through the village around this time.  After the convoy

 24   left, the local Serbs were better armed and would show off their automatic

 25   weapons and grenade launchers.

Page 10836

  1             In early June 1992, the witness's village was attacked.  The

  2   witness concluded that the Serbs were firing artillery and multiple rocket

  3   launchers from the elevated positions where they had earlier positioned

  4   weapons.  Serb men in camouflage uniforms entered the witness's village and

  5   fired weapons at the houses.  A stable was hit by an incendiary shell.

  6             Some of the Serb forces referred to the Muslims in racially

  7   abusive terms.  They robbed and killed several of the civilians, used

  8   civilians -- and used civilians as human shields.  While several of the

  9   civilians were armed with pistols or rudimentary rifles, none of them

 10   offered resistance.

 11             Your Honours, that ends the summary.  In a moment, I wish to set

 12   out a short background about who this witness is, and for that reason I

 13   request that we go into private session.

 14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could we go into private session.

 15             [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

 16  (redacted)

 17  (redacted)

 18  (redacted)

 19  (redacted)

 20  (redacted)

 21  (redacted)

 22  (redacted)

 23  (redacted)

 24  (redacted)

 25  (redacted)

Page 10837

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

 10 (redacted)

 11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gaynor, from the late response, you will

 12   understand that translation takes a bit more time than the time it takes

 13   for you to speak.

 14             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll be careful to slow down my delivery, Your

 15   Honour.

 16             Your Honour, for the benefit of Your Honours, I'd just like to

 17   orient you very quickly with the book of maps which you have, and I'd like

 18   you to -- to take you first to page 25.  This book of maps -- sorry, Your

 19   Honours, we can return to public session at this stage.

 20                          [Open session]

 21             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll return into open session.  And we are now. 

 22   Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

 23             MR. GAYNOR:  This is Exhibit P527, and I'd like to put on the

 24   ELMO or -- it's not even necessary to put it on the ELMO.  If Your Honours

 25   look at page 25, this is a map of the Sarajevo area.  The municipality

Page 10838

  1   towards the north of this map is Ilijas municipality.

  2             Now, if Your Honours turn to page 29, you see a map of Ilijas

  3   municipality.  Now, Your Honours, the witness's village is located -- is

  4   not named on this map.  For that reason, we've prepared an exhibit, which I

  5   intend to tender now, which establishes the location of the witness's

  6   village and establishes the location of several other villages which are

  7   referred to in his testimony.

  8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, that would be ...

  9             THE REGISTRAR:  This map will be Prosecution Exhibit P552.

 10             MR. GAYNOR:  Just to orient Your Honours on the map which you

 11   have in front of you, Ilijas, the witness's village, is in the extreme west

 12   of the municipality and is at the north part of the area which protrudes to

 13   the north of the extreme west.  It will become clearer when Your Honours

 14   receive the next map.

 15             I'd request that a copy of the map be given to the witness so

 16   that he's able to mark, and refer the Judges to certain towns on it.    

 17        Q.   Sir, to assist the Judges, I would be grateful if you could point

 18   to a number of towns which you mention in your statements.  First of all,

 19   could you point to the village of Ljesevo?   

 20        A.   [Indicates].   

 21        Q.   And could you point to Breza?   

 22        A.   [Indicates].   

 23        Q.   Could you point now to Vrbovik?   

 24        A.   [Indicates].   

 25        Q.   You also mention Cekrcici.  Could you also point to that, please.

Page 10839

  1        A.   [Indicates].   

  2        Q.   You mention in your statements Podlugovi? 

  3        A.   [Indicates].   

  4        Q.   And finally Ilijas town itself.

  5        A.   [Indicates].   

  6        Q.   Thank you, sir.       MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now request that the

  7  witness be shown the next exhibit, and that that exhibit be given an exhibit

  8   number -- sorry, that exhibit has an exhibit number and that is P299.  Your

  9   Honours saw this before.  

 10        Q.   Now, sir, on that sheet, you see the village or the area

 11   described as Ljesevo as number 5, with 747 Muslims and 509 Serbs in the

 12   1991 census.  Could you confirm that that is the village that you are from?

 13        A.   Yes.   

 14        Q.   Now, could you tell Their Honours whether the Serb and Muslim

 15   populations of Ljesevo lived in -- were intermingled in the Ljesevo area,

 16   or was there primarily a Serb part and a Muslim part?  Could you describe

 17   for Their Honours briefly how people lived.

 18        A.   The Muslims lived in one part of the village that was

 19   predominantly populated by the Muslims, and there were some 10 Croat houses

 20   there as well, in that Muslim part of the village.

 21             The Serb part of the village was on the other end.  It was part

 22   of the village but the houses were spread out at the other end of the

 23   village.

 24             Below the railway track, there were some Muslim and Serb houses

 25   scattered together.

Page 10840












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 10841

  1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, as we've discussed, your evidence is in two

  2   written statements which Their Honours have before them and which Their

  3   Honours have had an opportunity to read.  I just want to clarify certain

  4   parts of what is contained in those statements.

  5             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, at this stage, I request that we go

  6   into private session.

  7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll go into private session.

  8         [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

  9  (redacted)

 10  (redacted)

 11  (redacted)

 12  (redacted)

 13  (redacted)

 14  (redacted)

 15  (redacted)

 16  (redacted)

 17  (redacted)

 18  (redacted)

 19  (redacted)

 20  (redacted)

 21  (redacted)

 22  (redacted)

 23  (redacted)

 24  (redacted)

 25  (redacted)

Page 10842











11    Pages 10842-10852 redacted. Private session.















Page 10853

  1  (redacted)

  2  (redacted)

  3  (redacted)

  4  (redacted)

  5  (redacted)

  6  (redacted)

  7  (redacted)

  8   The first question is this:  Were those the only Muslim properties which

  9   were damaged during the attack on Ljesevo?

 10        A.   No.  In another part of the village, you could see smoke and you

 11   could see that there were houses on fire.  Near my house, near where I

 12   lived and near that shelter, there was a house or rather a barn that had

 13   been hit and also another house and another barn near the centre.  The

 14   shelling was from the centre itself, where I lived, and a bit further away. 

 15   Lug is the name of the place from which shooting could be heard.   

 16        Q.   Now, where you saw that other houses had been hit, was that in

 17   the Serb part of Ljesevo or was that the Muslim part of Ljesevo?

 18        A.   The Muslim part.   

 19        Q.   Did you see any damage to any houses in the Serb part?   

 20        A.   You can't see from there.  I've already said that it was mostly

 21   Muslims who were living there.  You cannot see that far away.  You cannot

 22   see whether the houses at the other side had been hit or whether they had

 23   been damaged.    

 24        Q.   Focussing on the houses in the Muslim part where you were, could

 25   you describe whether there were any military forces taking refuge in those

Page 10854

  1   houses or in that barn, or whether there was anybody firing or any military

  2   presence whatsoever in those houses or in that barn?

  3        A.   Which soldiers?    

  4        Q.   I'm talking about the Muslim houses which were destroyed.  Could

  5   you explain --

  6             MR. STEWART:  The witness's answer "Which soldiers" rather

  7   emphasises the leading nature of the question.  Perhaps, Your Honour, the

  8   appropriate matter is either to rephrase it or to leave it there.

  9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gaynor, the witness asked a further

 10   specification of your question, but if you could resolve it in such a way

 11   that you don't give the answer to the witness.

 12             MR. GAYNOR:    

 13        Q.   Sir --   

 14        A.   I have not really understood the question properly.  I think

 15   there must have been some kind of mistake.  Could you please repeat your

 16   question.

 17        Q.   I will approach the issue in a different way.

 18             Was there a Muslim military presence in Ljesevo?

 19        A.   No.   

 20        Q.   In your statement, you have described that you had a homemade

 21   rifle and you've described that the Serb soldiers laughed at your homemade

 22   rifle.  My question is this:  Why didn't you have a better rifle?  You

 23   knew, from your expertise, that machine-guns are better than homemade

 24   rifles.  Why didn't you get yourself a machine-gun?

 25        A.   Perhaps I can give an extensive answer to this question.  The

Page 10855

  1   Territorial Defence that got guns from the Ilijas municipality, I mean I'm

  2   not aware of the exact records because I was not in the Crisis Staff, and

  3   they had their own people.  Before everything -- before all of this

  4   happened, there was this split, or rather, the Crisis Staff stopped working

  5   and this was this Crisis Staff that was supposed to put up some kind of

  6   resistance.

  7             So the Territorial Defence had people who were on their lists and

  8   who were supposed to be on the guard duty during the night so that these

  9   same persons who have already done this would not come again.  So there was

 10   an organisation even before that.

 11             After the rifles were taken away, I mean it was the people from

 12   Ilijas who took them away, or rather, the army, along with the order-

 13   issuing authorities, there was a lack of confidence in the organisation

 14   itself that existed.  And during the night, people went to the neighbouring

 15   municipality of Breza.  During the day, they would come to see what was

 16   happening at their houses and their farms ...   

 17        Q.   Sir, if I could interrupt you there, I want to focus on some of

 18   the details in the answer that you've given.

 19             First I'd like to ask you very specifically, you said, "After the

 20   rifles were taken away."  The first question is when, to the best of your

 21   recollection, were the rifles taken away?

 22        A.   There was an incident, I think that that also happened in May,

 23   when an APC came into the village, an APC with soldiers, Serb soldiers, who

 24   already had a front line with the municipality of Breza.

 25             Our village belonged to the Serb part and their front line was

Page 10856

  1   there.  They had been waging war for quite some time before they attacked

  2   the Muslim part of the village.

  3             At one moment when they were passing by, and they were passing in

  4   these carriers several times, they were going to Odzak, to the front line

  5   where they were actually fighting, there was an incident, or rather, that's

  6   what they called it.  They said that some of our people started shooting,

  7   people who were at a checkpoint, or rather, this was a road that was

  8   leading to the Muslim part of the village.  They entered the village and

  9   they took a man prisoner.  They kept him as a hostage and they told him to

 10   call out to other people so they would come out too.

 11             A neighbour came out and communicated with them, and ultimately

 12   agreement was reached.  They met up somewhere, I don't know exactly where;

 13   I was on the other side.  They asked us to return the Territorial Defence

 14   weapons and part of the weapons because they thought that we had too many

 15   weapons.

 16             After that, there was a lack of confidence.  People started

 17   moving out, and after that, there was no guard duty at all.  That is why it

 18   is my assertion that there was no resistance on the part of the Muslim

 19   people, or rather, the Muslims who happened to be there on that day in

 20   Ljesevo.    

 21        Q.   Now, sir, going back to an earlier answer that you gave, you

 22   referred to rifles being taken away and people from the municipality came

 23   to take them away.  The first question - I would be very grateful if you

 24   could keep your answers focused - is when you say "People from the

 25   municipality," what ethnicity were those people?

Page 10857

  1        A.   They were ethnic Serbs.  I already said that these were soldiers

  2   who were patrolling the area every day.  They were going to and fro on

  3   APCs, and sometimes they'd even start shooting from the APC because there

  4   were Muslim houses on the way.  As they went down that road, they would

  5   shoot into the area just for the sake of provocation.  So this was a force

  6   that already was fighting at the front line.  They also negotiated with

  7   other municipalities, and they are the people who came to Ljesevo.  That's

  8   what I heard.

  9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 60, may I also ask you to very much focus

 10   your answer on this specific question.  The question just put to you was

 11   just about the ethnicity, and it might be that Mr. Gaynor is interested to

 12   know -- to hear about other details than you are telling us.  Therefore,

 13   please answer the question first, and if there's any additional information

 14   we would need, Mr. Gaynor will certainly ask you for it.

 15             Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.

 16             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.    

 17        Q.   Now, in your earlier answer, you said "People from the

 18   municipality," and you then clarified that they were Serbs.  Now, when you

 19   say "From the municipality," what do you mean by "the municipality,"

 20   exactly?   

 21        A.   The municipality had its President and its Crisis Staff, its Serb

 22   Crisis Staff, that was operating then when everything had started.  I've

 23   already said that they were negotiating, that this was on the news, on the

 24   radio, and so on.    

 25        Q.   Why did the Muslims agree to give their rifles to the Serb

Page 10858

  1   forces?

  2        A.   Why?  Because they asked for it and they came in on the APC. 

  3   They were threatening people, and people were afraid.  And in that fear,

  4   they thought that that would be better than something else.    

  5        Q.   Did they say who would protect you in case you were attacked?

  6        A.   Yes.  I found out from one of our people who worked in the Ilijas

  7   municipality that Ratko Adzic himself, the president of the municipality,

  8   said to him, "If you are afraid, we will come to protect you," at the

  9   surrounding hills that were a border with the Breza municipality.  That's

 10   what he said to this man, and I heard about it from him personally.  And

 11   this man said, "You don't have to come.  We will take care of ourselves." 

 12   And he smiled.    

 13        Q.   Now, sir, was when this assurance given, to the best of your

 14   recollection?   

 15        A.   It was before all this started happening, because during the

 16   night, people were afraid.  Nobody slept because every night, they were

 17   expecting something to happen.  Especially later when there was no guard

 18   duty, we would simply sit together in a few houses and wait for them to

 19   come and get us.

 20             We were there and we were always talking about this and wondering

 21   what to do, what the best thing to do would be once they came and they took

 22   away our weapons, and what next?  We were trying to work out a plan whether

 23   we should stay there or whether we should leave.    

 24        Q.   Now, to go back to your answer, you said that this assurance that

 25   you would be protected was given "before all this started happening." 

Page 10859

  1   Could you put a month on it, to the best of your ability, a month and a

  2   year, please?

  3        A.   This was already at the time when contacts were still being held. 

  4   For instance, our neighbour was in touch with the people who were

  5   negotiating for the cease-fire with the municipalities of Breza, Visoko,

  6   and so on.  He said that Ratko Adzic had told him this at one point.  It

  7   might also have happened in the month of May.

  8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We now come to the month, which was the actual

  9   question.  Perhaps you could start with -- if you are specifically asked

 10   about a month, and if any further clarification is needed, Mr. Gaynor will

 11   ask you for it.

 12             Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.  I'm looking at the clock.  I also

 13   see that we are close to a break.

 14             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, I'm happy to break now, if you wish. 

 15   I'm happy to continue for several more minutes.  I'm entirely ...

 16             JUDGE ORIE:  It depends a bit on whether you have dealt with this

 17   subject.  If not, we could continue for another three to five minutes and

 18   then have a break, so we'll leave it up to you.

 19             MR. GAYNOR:  In that case I'll continue for another few minutes.   

 20        Q.   Sir, in your statement - this is paragraph 26 of the ICTY

 21   statement, page 5 in the English; there's no need for you to refer to it,

 22   sir - you say that the Serb -- you're describing guard posts and barricades

 23   which were established in the Serb part of Ljesevo, and you said that the

 24   posts were manned by armed men.  "They set up strong fortifications and

 25   were well organised."

Page 10860












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 10861

  1             Now, on the basis of your military experience in the JNA with

  2   weaponry, can you describe for Their Honours what kind of weapons the Serb

  3   barricades in Ljesevo had.   

  4        A.   At the barricade in Ljesevo, which bordered with the municipality

  5   of Visoko, there were armed men with automatic weapons, with semi-automatic

  6   rifles and hand-held rocket launchers that they carried on their backs.

  7             They also had pillbox there where they kept some other armaments. 

  8   I wasn't able to see for myself what they had there, but they must have

  9   kept those arms there just in case something happened, as re-enforcement. 

 10   Therefore, they had automatic and semi-automatic weapons, zoljas or hand-

 11   held rocket launchers.  In a word, they were very well equipped.    

 12        Q.   Do you know where these local Serbs in Ljesevo were able to get

 13   hold of, for example, hand-held rocket launchers?  Do you have any specific

 14   information on that subject?

 15        A.   I have already stated that I, myself, saw the convoys from the

 16   Zenica barracks leaving in the direction of Sarajevo.  I saw this from a

 17   nearby village together with my neighbours, and I saw the trucks stopping

 18   by in the area of the municipality of Ilijas.  There was an intersection

 19   there.  There were trucks trailing these weapons as they were on their way

 20   into the municipality of Ilijas.   

 21        Q.   And my final question before the break concerns the Serbs.  You

 22   said in your statement, paragraph 28 of the English, on page 5 of the

 23   English, you said that Serbs established positions in elevated areas, and

 24   they established position on the hill between Ljesevo and Breza, that all

 25   of this happened in April and May 1992.

Page 10862

  1             Now, later you came to the conclusion that it was from those

  2   positions that the Serbs were firing artillery and multiple rocket

  3   launchers.  What was it that brought you to the conclusion that they were

  4   firing from that position?

  5        A.   I saw it with my own eyes.  I saw this because it's some 700 to

  6   800 metres, as the crow flies.  You can see the forest and then you see the

  7   plume of smoke rising as some four or five rockets are fired.  So you're

  8   not present there to be able to know what's going on, but people know what

  9   a rocket launcher is.  You know how many rockets it can fire and what

 10   consequences derive.  So I was near my home, and it was also from the

 11   vantage point of Ljubnici that I observed, as they were targeting Visoko on

 12   several occasions.   

 13        Q.   Now, you said that these positions --

 14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gaynor, you just said that this was your final

 15   question before the break.  You took the minutes I granted you, and I have

 16   another question:  Should we remain in private session?  We seem to be

 17   moving or dealing with matters of a general nature.

 18             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I see your point, Your Honour.  I'll consider

 19   the position carefully during the break, and I'll certainly try to let Your

 20   Honours know if it's necessary to stay in private session at the end of the

 21   break.

 22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 23             Then, Witness 60, we'll have a break for 25 minutes.  We'll

 24   adjourn.

 25             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, would Mr. Gaynor please also consider

Page 10863

  1   whether the bits that we've just heard should remain in private session,

  2   because that seems to go together as part of the same exercise.

  3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's perhaps it's better done on basis of the

  4   transcript and perhaps not --

  5               MR. STEWART:  Yes, it could be that's more convenient.

  6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please review the transcript to see

  7   whether there are any parts which could be public rather than private.

  8             MR. GAYNOR:  Does Your Honour -- I referred to the --

  9             JUDGE ORIE:  Questions like, What kind of weapons were used, and

 10   how the witness says that he observed it from quite a distance, these seem

 11   to be not questions that are of any identifying nature.

 12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, absolutely, Your Honour.

 13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would please then review that and we'll

 14   continue that at quarter past 4.00.

 15                          --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

 16                          --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

 17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gaynor, I do understand that you want to stay

 18   for a while in private session?

 19             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 21  (redacted)

 22  (redacted)

 23  (redacted)

 24  (redacted)

 25  (redacted)

Page 10864











11    Pages 10864-10866 redacted. Private session.















Page 10867

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

 10 (redacted)

 11 (redacted)

 12                          [Open session]

 13             MR. GAYNOR:  I request that the witness be shown the next three

 14   documents.  And while they are being distributed, I want to direct Your

 15   Honours to the salient points of these documents.  The first two -- I'll

 16   wait until Your Honours have them in front of you.

 17             Just briefly directing Your Honours to the salient point of these

 18   documents, the first is headed -- an exhibit number, please.

 19             THE REGISTRAR:  The exhibit number is Prosecution Exhibit P554.

 20             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, the first document is headed "SDS

 21   Crisis Staff, Ilijas".  It states that it is a list of TO members who have

 22   been paid by, and the word is illegible, a total of 300.000 dinars.  And

 23   it's dated 16 May 1992.  The person who appears at number one is Branko

 24   Gavric.

 25               The second document is also headed "SDS Crisis Staff, Ilijas".

Page 10868

  1   It's a list of TO members who have been paid, according to the decision of

  2   the staff.  The first person named is Samardzija.  The total is 260.000. 

  3   The date is 16 May 1992.

  4               The third document is headed "List of the 3rd Platoon Members

  5   who Received 10.000 Dinars".  It is dated in Rajlovac, 16 May 1992, and a

  6   signature appears in the bottom right-hand corner.  Its total is 290.000

  7   dinars.

  8        Q.   Now, witness, I'd like to direct you not to the first but to the

  9   second of those three documents.

 10             MR. GAYNOR:  At this stage, I would request that we go briefly

 11   into private session.

 12             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

 13                          [Private session]

 14  (redacted)

 15  (redacted)

 16  (redacted)

 17  (redacted)

 18  (redacted)

 19  (redacted)

 20  (redacted)

 21  (redacted)

 22  (redacted)

 23  (redacted)

 24  (redacted)

 25  (redacted)

Page 10869

  1  (redacted)

  2  (redacted)

  3  (redacted)

  4  (redacted)

  5                          [Open session]

  6             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, at this stage, I would like to refer

  7   you to a document that is related to the three documents which you have in

  8   front of you.  I would request that you keep those three documents in front

  9   of you.

 10             The next document was introduced quite recently through Witness

 11   Dorothea Hansen.  It is P529, tab 357.  Your Honours will be receiving a

 12   copy of that in a second.

 13             Your Honours, I want to direct your attention briefly to the

 14   salient points of this document.  I know you've seen it already.  I simply

 15   want to refresh your knowledge of it.  It's headed "Serbian Republic of BH,

 16   Serbian Municipality of Ilijas."  It's an overview of the revenues and

 17   costs with the breakdown by purposes for the period of 11 May 1992 to 30

 18   June 1992.  Under "Income", there's a record of an income of 3 million

 19   dinars on the basis of the payment order number 18 for the Crisis Staff of

 20   the Serbian Republic of BH government.  There's also a record of 10 million

 21   dinars as income on the basis of the payment order number 60 received from

 22   the government for the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Ilijas

 23   reimbursement.

 24             Your Honours will see that the document is signed, and the

 25   signature that appears at page 5 of the English translation is that of

Page 10870












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 10871

  1   Ratko Adzic, the president of the Serbian municipality of <

  2   also, to the left of that, a signature of Trivko Radic, and at the bottom

  3   of the page, there is again the signature of Trivko Radic.

  4             I'd like to draw Your Honours very briefly to page 4 or 5 of the

  5   English translation, the very last entry.  There is what appears to be a

  6   record of a payment to the Ljesevo TO, 1.012 dinars.

  7             Now I would like to turn very briefly into private session.

  8             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

  9            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

 10  (redacted)

 11  (redacted)

 12  (redacted)

 13  (redacted)

 14  (redacted)

 15  (redacted)

 16  (redacted)

 17  (redacted)

 18  (redacted)

 19  (redacted)

 20  (redacted)

 21  (redacted)

 22  (redacted)

 23  (redacted)

 24  (redacted)

 25  (redacted)

Page 10872

  1  (redacted)

  2  (redacted)

  3  (redacted)

  4  (redacted)

  5  (redacted)

  6  (redacted)

  7  (redacted)

  8  (redacted)

  9  (redacted)

 10  (redacted)

 11  (redacted)

 12  (redacted)

 13  (redacted)

 14  (redacted)

 15  (redacted)

 16  (redacted)

 17  (redacted)

 18  (redacted)

 19  (redacted)

 20  (redacted)

 21  (redacted)  What I would like to know is what was the

 22   relationship between the people in the village where you lived -- what was

 23   the atmosphere between the various communities?

 24             You are 38 years old today, I believe.  I imagine that you've

 25   spent your childhood and then your teenage years and your adulthood as a

Page 10873

  1   young adult in that same village.  You've done your military -- compulsory

  2   military service so you were in touch with all the other young people of

  3   your age.  What was the relationship between all these men, whether they

  4   were Muslim, Serb or Croats before these events?

  5             I would like to be very clear:  You stated not long ago that the

  6   village was a Muslim village, and that this Muslim village was on a

  7   geographical -- limited geographical spot.  You said that they were not too

  8   far from where your neighbours, the Serbs, lived.  What was daily life

  9   like?  Were people talking together?  Were children playing together?  Did

 10   young people play football together?  Or were there always interethnic

 11   tensions?

 12             Would you be able to answer those questions, please?

 13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 14             THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphones please be switched off.

 15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you've mentioned that this was

 16   a Muslim village.  There was a certain percentage of Muslims there, of

 17   Croats, and of Serbs, so it wasn't a Muslim village, it was a mixed

 18   village.  The population was spread out in such a way that the ethnicities

 19   lived in predominantly one-ethnicity-populated areas.  You were talking

 20   about the period before the war.  The relations between people before the

 21   war were good or even to say excellent even several years before the war. 

 22   The infrastructure was being built, meetings were being held, phone

 23   connections were being introduced, the roads were being paved, gas was

 24   fitted into the area, and this was done jointly by Serbs, Muslims, and

 25   Croats.

Page 10874

  1             I grew up in the area.  I frequented four years of elementary

  2   school in Ljesevo.  I had friends there.  I was part of the local youth

  3   organisation that launched several actions of cleaning the environment,

  4   organising football matches.  There were one or two cafes where we went out

  5   together.

  6             Whenever some sort of assistance had to be raised for the

  7   municipality, all the youths living in the area would meet and get

  8   organised.  All the events marking my childhood, adolescence, up until the

  9   beginning of the war, showed that the things were functions well.

 10             As the elections were held, and with the onset of the war in

 11   Croatia that started spilling over to Bosnia, the relations began cooling

 12   down to the extent that people were getting isolated, that Serbs would sit

 13   together in one corner of the cafe and would not communicate as much with

 14   us Muslims or Croats.  There were some 10 Croat homes, and the youths

 15   belonging to these families were more closely related to the Muslims, so

 16   they were the ones who stood guard together with us when we were on guard

 17   duty at a later stage.

 18             With the relations becoming troubled, the Serbs would no longer

 19   meet with the Muslims in this one local cafe that was held by a Serb owner. 

 20   At night, people from other villages would come in who were in touch with

 21   our Serb neighbours and who frequented these cafes.

 22             With the mounting of the tensions, and after the declaration of

 23   the SAO Romanija, we were aware of the fact that the municipality of Ilijas

 24   fell under this SAO Romanija.  They launched a campaign by putting up

 25   posters trying to show us that we were part of this unit now.

Page 10875

  1             As Ljesevo is the most outlying settlement in the municipality of

  2   Ilijas bordering with the municipality of Visoko, this was the last

  3   settlement alongside with the village of Cekrcici that was still

  4   categorised under the SAO Romanija.  The villagers of Cekrcici would visit

  5   this cafe that was located in our village.  As there were more and more

  6   provocations, we stopped going out in the evenings, frequenting these

  7   villages -- these cafes, because the situation wasn't favourable for us. 

  8   Since the villagers of Cekrcici, which fell under the municipality of

  9   Visoko which was a predominantly Serb village, the residents that have

 10   village would come into our settlement carrying weapons.

 11             I was a victim of one incident when, with the heightening of

 12   tensions, I was beaten up (redacted)

 13  (redacted)

 14  (redacted)

 15  (redacted)

 16  (redacted)

 17  (redacted)

 18  (redacted)

 19             JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.  But I would

 20   like to ask you one more question.  Just before those events, were there

 21   people from the village who tried to stop all of that, the tensions, from

 22   both sides, from the Serbian side and the Muslim side?  Since people knew

 23   each other, were there some people who tried to help the situation, to

 24   diminish the tensions?

 25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when the tension started and

Page 10876

  1   when we became aware of everything that was going on, for example, when the

  2   front line was already established towards the municipality of Breza and

  3   the municipality of Visoko, in that period, we simply belonged to the

  4   municipality of Ilijas.  The Serbs who lived in Ljesevo certainly had

  5   contacts and relations with other Serbs in the municipality of Ilijas

  6   Those who belonged to the SAO Romanija, they did meet up with them and they

  7   received instructions through these persons.  Kojo Glisic, who was

  8   president of the SDS for Ljesevo, also had contact with these persons and

  9   he had meetings in Ilijas.  He went to these meetings.  I know about that.

 10             Kojo Glisic, together with other people who were on this Crisis

 11   Staff of theirs in Ljesevo, held meetings with the Muslim Crisis Staff

 12   which did exist at that time.  We were given promises, as far as I know,

 13   that nothing would happen, that nothing should happen, although there was

 14   more and more fighting on the front line between Breza and Visoko.

 15             Meetings were held, promises were made, and for that reason, the

 16   people who stayed in Ljesevo on that day experienced what they experienced. 

 17   Those who did not believe in all of that had left earlier.

 18             JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

 19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gaynor, before we proceed, you just indicated

 20   that the document you presented was P529, tab 357.  That's not what I find. 

 21   It looks very much the same but it's not the same document.  I take it that

 22   it's another version of that same document but not exactly the same.

 23              Apart from the difference in the ERN numbers, I'd really like

 24   you to -- if you present a document as exactly the same, that it is that

 25   same document.

Page 10877

  1              MR. GAYNOR:  Certainly, Your Honour.  I apologise for the

  2   oversight.  If Your Honour would prefer, these are simply courtesy copies

  3   of that exhibit so we can withdraw --

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Well, they are not copies.  If you look at the

  5   signatures, you will see that the two documents are signed not exactly in

  6   the same way.  One of the documents has some corrections in handwriting,

  7   which does not appear on the other.  I mean, it's not dramatic for your

  8   questions because I don't think that anything changes, but I would like

  9   really to draw your attention to the fact that if you present a document as

 10   the same, that it should be the same and nothing else.

 11              Then I further would like to -- where you mentioned 1.012

 12   dinars, I take it that you wanted to refer to 1.012.000 on item 63 on the

 13   last page.

 14              MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  That was a small mistake.  And then finally, I'm

 16   not a native English speaker, but in the translation, what I would expect

 17   to be "dinars" appears as "dinners", consequently, on the last page. 

 18   Unless there's a specific use of this term, then -- but I thought it was

 19   something different.

 20             Please proceed.

 21              MR. GAYNOR:  We can return to open session.

 22              MR. STEWART:  As we're returning to open session, perhaps we've

 23   just done that --

 24              JUDGE ORIE:  No, we are still in private session.

 25              MR. STEWART:  I was going to -- my comment was appropriate for

Page 10878

  1   open session, Your Honour.

  2              JUDGE ORIE:  We'll turn in to open session, unless you would

  3   have any -- Mr. Gaynor, would you have any further questions in private

  4   session or ...

  5              MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, I've no further questions in private

  6   session for this witness.

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Then we turn in to open session, and Mr. Stewart,

  8   please proceed.

  9                           [Open session]

 10              MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour, I was only going to say that it

 11   does -- sorry, it seems we are in open session now.

 12               Your Honour, I was just going to say that the way the evidence

 13   has progressed, it seems to indicate that, of course, as everybody's doing

 14   their best to see when we should be in open session, when we should be in

 15   private session, but it looks as if, perhaps, the whole transcript ought to

 16   be revisited overnight.  I see Mr. Harmon nodding to --

 17              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gaynor has already invited and has told us, and

 18   I take it that that's not just valid for the part before the break but the

 19   whole of it.

 20              MR. GAYNOR:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 22              MR. GAYNOR:  Simply while we're on the subject of this exhibit,

 23   I just wanted to direct Your Honours' attention, I don't want to belabour

 24   the point, but under "Outcomes", items 2, 3 and 4, which are a payment to

 25   Gavric of 300.000, a payment to Samardzija of 260.000, and a payment to

Page 10879

  1   Draskic of 290.000, we invite Your Honours to compare those three entries

  2   with the previous exhibit.

  3              JUDGE ORIE:  We've done that already.  Please proceed, Mr.

  4   Gaynor.

  5              MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, the next point, and I think this is

  6   the best time to deal with it, is to have a look at the last page in the

  7   B/C/S of that exhibit, the exhibit Your Honour has just referred me to, and

  8   to the signatures of Radic, appearing in the middle of the page and at the

  9   bottom of the page.  Again, I simply want to briefly direct Your Honours'

 10   attention to the signatures which appear at the bottom of --

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  We've compared them as well.

 12              MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, thank you for that.  In that case, I

 13   have no further questions.

 14              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 15              MR. GAYNOR:  Sorry, Your Honour, I just want to make one final

 16   point.  I apologise for saying I don't have any further questions.  I don't

 17   have any further questions, but I do want to draw Your Honours' attention

 18   simply to some pages of the Bosnian Serb Assembly session of the 12th of

 19   May, 1992.  This is already an exhibit in this case. It's Exhibit P529, tab

 20   465.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Same document, Mr. Gaynor.  There's no doubt in my

 22   mind but ...

 23              MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I would invite Your Honours

 24   to have a look at the speech of Trivko Radic.  He speaks twice during that

 25   Assembly session, to compare the date of that speech, the content of that

Page 10880












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Page 10881

  1   speech, with the exhibits that you've received today.

  2              And I now confirm I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your

  3   Honour.

  4              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

  5              Mr. Stewart, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

  6              MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour.  If I might just get the lectern

  7   from behind me.  Thank you.

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 60, you will now be examined by Mr.

  9   Stewart, who is counsel for the defence of Mr. Krajisnik.

 10              MR. STEWART:  Thank you.            

 11                       Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:

 12        Q.   Witness, I'm looking at paragraph 23 of your main ICTY statement. 

 13   It's a short point so you don't particularly need to take the document. 

 14   You say:  "To my knowledge, Muslim men of military age in Ilijas were not

 15   affected by mobilisation orders when the war in Croatia started."

 16              Now, what I want to put to you is that it's not strictly true to

 17   say they were not affected.  The position was that, generally speaking,

 18   they didn't go.  Do you see the distinction, or would you like me to

 19   present it to you more clearly? 

 20        A.   What distinction?    

 21        Q.   All right, I will.  You say they were not affected by

 22   mobilisation orders, which seems to suggest that those orders didn't apply

 23   to them.  What I'm putting to you is those mobilisation orders certainly

 24   did apply to them but they didn't want to go and refused to go. 

 25        A.   Is there a date that you are referring to in terms of the war in

Page 10882

  1   Croatia?  What do you have in mind?

  2              JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 60, I'll try to explain to you --

  3              MR. STEWART:  It seems that I'm having trouble with the

  4   microphone.  It seems to be more appropriate if Ms. Philpott would tell me

  5   what I should do.

  6              JUDGE ORIE:  It seems you should turn off --

  7              MR. STEWART:  I was reminded the first time and I see the --

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  I see the light, as a matter of fact, I think that

  9   at the moment that Ms. Philpott asked you that the microphone was on.  But

 10   let's not spend -- I mean I think it's clear now the -- yes, whenever the

 11   witness is about to speak, you should turn your microphone off.

 12              MR. STEWART:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I understood that I was --

 13   perhaps there was a split second timing discrepancy.

 14              I see the point and I will do my best.

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 16              Mr. Stewart is asking you whether what you said, that the

 17   Muslims were not affected by mobilisation, that was when some Serbs, as you

 18   said, went voluntarily that Croatia, that that would not be true because

 19   they were under a mobilisation order but they did not go.  That's what he

 20   puts to you, that what -- it is rather as he tells you than what we read in

 21   your statement.

 22              THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 23              THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear of a single Serb

 24   who lived in Ljesevo who had been mobilised and sent to the front in

 25   Croatia.  I, myself, was not called up, so I confirm what I said, that I am

Page 10883

  1   not aware of anyone having been mobilised for the war.

  2              What I do know is that volunteers went, people who wanted to go. 

  3   People talked about it while we still had contact, that people who wanted

  4   to do so for money did go, or people who were attached to the party that

  5   did that, they went to this front in Croatia.

  6              JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

  7              MR. STEWART:    

  8        Q.   So to get it clear, you're saying that neither Serbs nor Muslims

  9   were affected by mobilisation orders, but that perhaps some Serbs did go;

 10   is that a fair summary?

 11              THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  The interpreters cannot

 12   hear the witness if any microphone is on.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer, Witness.

 14        A.   Volunteers, I said volunteers went.

 15              MR. STEWART:    

 16        Q.   So is the summary I just put to you accurate, that neither Serbs

 17   nor Muslims were affected by mobilisation orders, that some Serbs, you

 18   described as volunteers, did go? 

 19        A.   I heard that some Serbs went to the war in Croatia for money and

 20   as volunteers for the interests of the streams they belonged to or a

 21   political party.  These were people who later proved to be criminals in

 22   Ljesevo itself.

 23        Q.   All right.  Let's move forward to June 1992.  In the area where

 24   you lived, were there attacks by Muslim forces upon Serbs in early June

 25   1992?

Page 10884

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone, please, Mr. Stewart.

  2              MR. STEWART:  Sorry. 

  3        A.   What do you mean by the end, or rather, when you say "in the

  4   area," are you referring to Breza as well?  I mean when you say "area",

  5   what do you mean exactly?    

  6        Q.   All right.  Within 20 kilometres of where you lived, were there

  7   any attacks by Muslim forces upon Serbs in early June 1992? 

  8        A.   I'll try to make things clearer.  When the SAO Romanija was

  9   established, the territory of SAO Romanija was brought together, the

 10   territories that border the municipalities of Visoko and Breza - I don't

 11   know the exact dates, but from the month of March, further on, that

 12   includes June - when what happened, happened in Ljesevo itself, the warring

 13   parties were there, that is to say, the municipalities of Ilijas and Visoko

 14   and Ilijas and Breza.

 15              There were front lines there throughout the war, where SAO

 16   Romanija was at the time, so from the very beginning of March.  I was still

 17   working when there was an open front there, if I can put it that way, at

 18   Kralupi, where there was shooting all the time during the night invariably

 19   but sometimes during the day.

 20               So the answer is that, from the very outset, or rather, as soon

 21   as the SAO Romanija was established, problems started, or rather tensions,

 22   among the two or rather three sides that were at war.    

 23        Q.   In your statement, you say in paragraph 15 --

 24              MR. STEWART:  We ought to go into private session, I feel, Your

 25   Honour.

Page 10885

  1             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn in to private session.

  2                           [Private session]

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10886











11    Page 10886 redacted. Private session.















Page 10887

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

 23                           [Open session]

 24              JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 60, since the Bench have no more questions,

 25   and since the questions from the Bench raise no further questions for you,

Page 10888

  1   Mr. Stewart.

  2              MR. STEWART:  Oddly, no, Your Honour.

  3              JUDGE ORIE:  This concludes your evidence in this Court. 

  4   Witness 60, we have carefully read your statements, we have listened to

  5   your testimony.  It has taken you back to a time to which you must have

  6   memories which, I take it, will stay over the rest of your life.  We very

  7   much appreciate that you came to The Hague, that you gave your testimony,

  8   that you've answered questions both of the Prosecution and the Defence. 

  9   And we'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for

 10   assisting the parties and the Chamber in performing their tasks, and I'd

 11   like to wish you a safe trip home again.

 12              Madam Usher, could you please escort Witness 60 out of the

 13   courtroom.

 14                           [The witness withdrew]

 15              JUDGE ORIE:  Looking at the clock, Mr. Gaynor, I did understand

 16   that your next witness is not on stand-by to be called, or is --

 17             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct.  The next witness will not be ready

 18   until tomorrow.

 19              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we still have some matters in

 20   relation to exhibits.  On the other hand, I do not know whether the present

 21   members of both Prosecution and Defence teams are in the position to deal

 22   with that, or whether they could be called, so that perhaps after a short

 23   break we could finish that area.

 24              MR. GAYNOR:  Certainly, I think we could achieve that.  We could

 25   possibly deal with the exhibits of this witness first.

Page 10889

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we could do that, and then for the exhibits of

  2   the previous witnesses.

  3              Mr. Stewart, would you be able to deal with that, or would it be

  4   Ms. Loukas who would --

  5              MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, it's not really me, I must say,

  6   and I wonder, Your Honour, it's -- we're not in the same position as the

  7   Prosecution, we're not all working around the building.

  8              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  9              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I hope Your Honours will understand,

 10   bringing Ms. Loukas over this for this this afternoon would be very

 11   disruptive of work she's doing some distance away from the courtroom, if

 12   Your Honours will be indulgent on that.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think if -- I think we could wait until a

 14   moment when Ms. Loukas is present, and we will then now concentrate on the

 15   exhibits in relation to this witness, because there's no other witness with

 16   outstanding exhibits you would deal with, Mr. Stewart.  We cleaned the list

 17   so ...

 18              MR. STEWART:  I think we have, Your Honour.  I must say when

 19   it's Mr. Harmon and me dealing with this, I'm not sure we always

 20   distinguish ourselves enormously in relation to these exhibits.

 21              JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then first deal with the present exhibits.

 22               Madam Registrar, could you please ...

 23              THE REGISTRAR:  Prosecution Exhibit P549, pseudonym sheet, under

 24   seal.

 25              P550, ICTY witness statement, dated 04/05 October 1998, under

Page 10890












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13   English transcripts.













Page 10891

  1   seal.

  2              P550.1, B/C/S translation.

  3              P551, record compiled on behalf of the High Court in Zenica,

  4   dated 10 June 1992, under seal.

  5              P551.1, English translation.

  6              P552, map of Ilijas area.

  7              P553, official report of exhumation, under seal.

  8              P553.1, English translation.

  9              P554, three lists of payments to members of Ilijas TO.

 10              JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 11              Are there any objections?

 12              MR. STEWART:  No, Your Honour.

 13              JUDGE ORIE:  Then they are admitted into evidence.

 14              We have a few matters still on our list.  The first is the

 15   redaction of Mr. Bjelobrk's statement.

 16              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I've come to court armed with a

 17   confession on this, Your Honour, not a written confession --

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 19              MR. STEWART:  -- but I have come armed with a confession, which

 20   is that I'm not in a position to deal with this yet.  I apologise for that,

 21   but there is quite a lot of work involved and Ms. Cmeric and I, between us,

 22   we're just not there yet on this, I'm afraid.

 23              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, of course, we are -- become

 24   more or less a bureau in which we give further delays and further delays,

 25   because I do understand that the Defence had requested two weeks from the

Page 10892

  1   7th of March.  But I take it that you need some more time for

  2   that.

  3              MR. STEWART:  Actually, what I did request, Your Honour, was

  4   slightly more than that.

  5              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, until the start of recess.

  6              MR. STEWART:  Yes.

  7              JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's then -- the start of the recess is --

  8              MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, I loosely used the word

  9   "recess" to refer to that extremely generous weekend that we're heading

 10   for, coming up.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you need some more time.  It makes no

 12   sense to force you at this point to give an answer where you can't give

 13   that.

 14              Then the next item on my list was the 34/35.  Same answer, Mr.

 15   Stewart or -- there was still --

 16              MR. STEWART:  I'm struggling to remember what that was, Your

 17   Honour.  Was this the one to do with the tapes?

 18              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the tapes, yes.  On the 11th of March, you --

 19   the Defence has confirmed receipt of these tapes, but at the same time

 20   indicated there was still some problems.  And I think at that time, we

 21   invited the parties to give it some follow-up and to see whether this could

 22   be resolved, yes or no.

 23              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, there was all kinds of confusion

 24   about that and we did follow up Your Honours' suggestion by having an

 25   informal but what seemed to be productive discussion about it.

Page 10893

  1              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  2              MR. STEWART:  But for the life of me, I can't remember where the

  3   discussion left us, except I do know this, Your Honour:  It wasn't me that

  4   was to do something next.  That's the only thing I distinctly remember,

  5   because one does tend to remember that, but I don't know who it was.

  6              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Harmon, do you have any recollection of who was

  7   to do something, not being you or ...

  8              MR. HARMON:  Well, I find myself in the same position as Mr.

  9   Stewart, Your Honour.  I will resolve this with Mr. Stewart after the

 10   break.

 11              JUDGE ORIE:  Since we have -- I don't know whether we'll meet

 12   after the break.  I mean just to come back in order to hear that you

 13   further discussed the matter might not be very sensitive.

 14              Then -- one second, please.

 15                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 16              JUDGE ORIE:  There was an issue and I will not give any further

 17   specifications at this moment on confidentiality in respect of a witness,

 18   and there were five paragraphs which should remain confidential in the

 19   views of the OTP.  And the parties were invited to tell the Trial Chamber

 20   during the week of the 14th of March whether further discussions are likely

 21   to lead to any solution; if not, of course, we would have to deliver a

 22   decision on this outstanding area of disagreement.

 23              Is there any indication from the parties whether -- I take it

 24   that the parties are aware of what we are talking about.

 25              MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, this one I really do know

Page 10894

  1   about, Your Honour.

  2              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

  3              MR. STEWART:  This is my baby on this side, this particular one.

  4              Your Honour, I made my confession earlier but this one is

  5   another one where the ball is absolutely not in my court at the moment.  I

  6   have lobbed it over the net recently and it's on the other side of the net

  7   and it has been for a little while.  And I understand the reasons.  This is

  8   not a complaint, this is just a factual description of the position.

  9              JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Harmon, any mention from the other side of the

 10   net?

 11              MR. HARMON:  Your Honour, Mr. Tieger is dealing with that.  He's

 12   been away for the past week and I will raise this with Mr. Tieger and find

 13   out what the status is and tomorrow we will report on this issue.

 14              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we will not reconvene after the break to hear

 15   that there is a solution in sight or not.

 16              Then there was one issue, but perhaps, Mr. Stewart, it's too

 17   much of a detail on P252 translation issues.  You've got three weeks.

 18              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour is 100 per cent right, that it is too

 19   much of a detail for me, I'm afraid, this afternoon.

 20              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although it's just Monday, I give it at this

 21   very moment.

 22              There being no witness available, I mean there's hardly anything

 23   else we could do then but to stop.  Of course, under normal circumstances,

 24   we would have had almost one hour, and of course if we are planning and if

 25   we are dealing with how much time should be available, also in view of

Page 10895

  1   making some progress in this case, it's not only a matter of short

  2   examination of the witnesses but also to use our time as good as we can. 

  3   And I do see that we now at least lose today more than one hour.  I hope

  4   that it does not affect the outcome of this week because I think all

  5   parties were trying to finish the witnesses on our list by next Wednesday,

  6   but at the same time, one hour lost is 25 per cent of the time we had

  7   available this day, the effective time we had available this day.

  8              So therefore, the Chamber would very much urge the parties to

  9   see that we can continue the flow of evidence without interruption, of

 10   course, to the extent possible.

 11              MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, may I inject a positive note here?

 12              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 13              MR. STEWART:  I like to do that occasionally when I can, where

 14   we are in the position.  When I think Mr. Gaynor has come in within --

 15   comfortably within the Prosecution estimate of time in chief for this

 16   witness and then the Defence have come in well under the guideline 60 per

 17   cent, that could be viewed really rather positively, and then what could

 18   further be viewed positively is that, given the pressures in dealing with

 19   the matter this week, rather than our filleting ourselves for not finding

 20   ways of using the next hour in court, this time is extremely valuably used

 21   out of court.  So it is a distinctly positive result when both parties deal

 22   with a witness quicker than the estimate and there is some time released to

 23   deal with the very heavy pressure of work for all concerned.

 24              JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do agree with you that, in the short term,

 25   it has some advantages.  It also has some disadvantages in the long term.  

Page 10896

  1   Let's spend the time which remains for us today as good as we can.  We'll

  2   adjourn until tomorrow, in the afternoon, same courtroom, quarter past

  3   2.00.

  4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.31 p.m.,

  5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of March,

  6                           2005, at 2.15 p.m.