Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10955

1 Wednesday, 23 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Ms. Edgerton, is your witness, or I should say your 92 bis

10 witness, available for cross-examination?

11 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, Your Honour, if I may, I'm not here on

12 the matter of the 92 bis witness, but I'm here on a matter relating to the

13 evidence of the witness who testified yesterday, Mr. Selimovic.


15 MS. EDGERTON: It's an issue that I wanted to raise before the

16 Trial Chamber and I've raised it with Mr. Stewart this morning in an

17 e-mail and over the telephone and it relates to some -- a selection of

18 documents which I've provided Mr. Stewart with this morning.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am a bit concerned that we might not finish

20 with the present witness today, so I would like to hear your submissions

21 but, at the same time --

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say there need be absolutely no

23 concern. I promise, Your Honour, it's perfectly -- there's plenty of time

24 for Ms. Edgerton.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 10956

1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. What I have and I've

2 brought the requisite number of copies are a selection of six documents,

3 contextual documents which would serve to contextualise the testimony of

4 the witness yesterday which would otherwise have formed and may still be

5 included in what was to be the dossier for the Vogosca municipality. They

6 are military documents in two cases and the remainder of documents that

7 emanate from the archive of the Kula prison facility that would go to show

8 that the incident, in this case, in September 1992, that the witness was

9 speaking about was in the context of a larger military offensive.

10 Contextual documents, which Your Honour, in my submission, would

11 best be put before the Court now while the testimony of that witness is

12 fresh in the minds of everyone who's heard it, rather than have it

13 included in a large dossier somewhat later on in the Prosecution case.

14 I would, then, Your Honour, like to tender these six documents and

15 ask that they be marked as exhibits at this point in time.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour. Yes, I indicated to Ms. Edgerton that

19 the Defence really had a preference for exhibits not to be channeled

20 entirely artificially through witnesses as they sometimes are who don't

21 know anything about them, so in principle, we don't have any objection

22 documents if they are very clearly what they purport to be, being

23 exhibits. From the discussions we had this morning, Ms. Edgerton knows

24 that there are two particular matters, one is that the slightly wider

25 batch of documents, as I understand, from which these have been selected,

Page 10957

1 should be made available conveniently soon to the Defence so we are able

2 to review those as well.


4 So I do understand, as a matter of fact, you propose that you

5 tender a split apart of what would be the dossier and present it to us in

6 connection with a relevant witness, not through that witness, but just

7 that the context is clear to us.

8 Since the Defence does not oppose -- of course this Chamber is a

9 bit worried about the dossiers because we asked one test dossier to be

10 filed so we could get an impression of what it looks like and I do

11 understand that Mr. Stewart's comment is a bit similar to see what a

12 dossier is. It's still -- it's still to be expected.

13 Also, the Chamber, of course, in view of, again, the size of the

14 material, if we just look at today, I think it's approximately 1.000 pages

15 if not more of 92 bis material and it's -- it asks for quite some reading

16 to prepare that. So the Chamber is a bit worried that the dossiers would

17 be multiple -- would have a size multiple of what we received this week,

18 what we receive next week. Apart from that, there is no objection to

19 splitting up and putting into context those parts of the dossier, so

20 therefore, I've got no idea -- Mr. Stewart, I take it you have been

21 informed what the documents are. You haven't had an opportunity to

22 inspect them.

23 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I was, as an e-mail attachment,

24 I've been supplied with all the ones that were actually proposed to go in

25 now. Could I just say, Your Honour, that although some of the Defence's

Page 10958

1 interest and concerns about the dossier reflect exactly what Your Honour

2 has said with the extra concern that if these dossiers are to be valuable,

3 sometime before the end of the trial would be nice, but I had in mind

4 particularly in referring to the slightly wider batch of materials, just

5 those in this particular category rather than the dossier for that

6 particular municipality. I don't know exactly how many we are talking

7 about, but there has, as Ms. Edgerton made plain to me, there has been a

8 selection from something in broadly the same category.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you briefly mention the documents you have in

10 mind after you have provided Madam Registrar with a first copy and perhaps

11 copies for the Bench as well, so that we can see what it is and then

12 invite Madam Registrar to assign exhibit numbers to them.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I could take an active part in this

15 proceeding by trying to -- no active part.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, in doing this, at one glance at Ms.

17 Edgerton's idea of inequality of arms is absolutely clear. Your Honour,

18 it was an joke. It was a reference to inequality of arms.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I can assist by indicating or

20 providing you with some kind of description of the ERN numbers and

21 translation numbers of the documents I have in front of me, please advise.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, perhaps I try to do it and then you

23 confirm that I have understood what these documents are actually about and

24 then I'd rather do it in chronological order. I see we've got -- the

25 first document, last three -- four digits 1651 from the ERN number is a

Page 10959

1 request sent by telephone on the 17th of September, 1992 to bring 50

2 prisoners to Zuc hill. It's addressed to the Vogosca prison.

3 MS. EDGERTON: And the original ERN number to that translation I

4 have as 0297-7621.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've got the same.

6 Then, Madam Registrar, that would be number --

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit number P559.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the next document, ERN last four

9 digits 1652, in the original 7618, is a bulletin issued by prison warden

10 Branko Vlaco and reports that in the course of the works done by prisoners

11 at Zuc hill, that four prisoners were killed and seven prisoners were

12 wounded. It's dated the 19th of September, 1992.

13 Ms. Edgerton, you would agree with that?

14 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That would be, Madam Registrar, P560, I dare to

16 guess.

17 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we're dealing with the ERN

18 number that you've just quoted, Your Honour, already has been exhibit

19 number. It's just been brought to my attention.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes.

21 MS. EDGERTON: P457 and 457.1.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar then whenever I start guessing

23 about numbers, it goes wrong.

24 Are there any others that are already in evidence?

25 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.

Page 10960












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10961

1 JUDGE ORIE: I just picked the right one.

2 Then the next document, ERN number last four digits 8090, in the

3 original, 0960 is a document dated the 21st of September, 1992. It is a

4 combat report issued by Stanislav Galic addressed to the Main Staff of the

5 Army of the Serbian Republic and it deals, among other matters, with

6 operations in the Rajlovac area, Sokoj and the cemetery underneath Zuc

7 -- is that what is the relevant part? No, I see that also mentioned is

8 made on the -- on the second page, but I have some difficulties with the

9 translation since number two seems not to appear in the translation into

10 English because I take it that on the top of page two where it reads, "All

11 units," that a two is missing there.

12 The document in original that is four numbered paragraphs. The

13 translation is missing paragraph 2, but -- and in paragraph 2 the first

14 linea, it's mentioned that "Utilities of Rajlovac and Vogosca brigades are

15 carrying out offensives in a broader area of Zuc". That's the relevant

16 part. So we are all supposed to add a two at the top of the second page.

17 Madam Registrar, that would be number ...

18 THE REGISTRAR: This document, then, Your Honour, will be P560.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20 The next document, English translation, last four digits of the

21 ERN number 1655, the original 7609, is a bulletin issued by or on behalf

22 of Mirko Djukanovic and as it also reads prison warden Branko Vlaco. It's

23 a bulletin of the 21st of September. It also mentions 50 prisoners that

24 were taken to Zuc hill to carry out works and that 8 prisoners all

25 mentioned by name were wounded. That two died of serious injuries that

Page 10962

1 same day. These are among the ones mentioned as being wounded. And

2 mentions the persons who attended the funeral that same day of those who

3 died.

4 Ms. Edgerton, yes.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be ...


8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. And the next document,

9 the last four digits in the English translation 9638, the last four digits

10 in the original 0969. It is a regular combat report sent by Stanislav

11 Galic to the Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic and mentions,

12 among other things, operations of enemy forces on the area of Zuc.

13 Is there any other relevant part or is it just in the beginning on

14 the area of Zuc?

15 MS. EDGERTON: Last two sentences of paragraph 2, Your Honour.


17 MS. EDGERTON: Last two sentences of the first paragraph of

18 paragraph 2, reading the "Ilijas brigade unit successfully

19 counter-attacked."

20 JUDGE ORIE: "Pushing the Defence line forward by 800 meters in

21 the area of Misoca, Ilijas and the other units are holding the lines reach

22 and did not attack during the day".

23 Madam Registrar, that would be ...

24 THE REGISTRAR: That would be document P562.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. The next and the last

Page 10963

1 document would be English translation four last digits 1656, and in the

2 original, 7602. It is a bulletin for the 23rd of September by prison

3 warden Branko Vlaco reporting that on the 24th of September, 1992, that

4 two prisoners were hit by fire because they were carrying out works at Zuc

5 hill and that both of them died.

6 I have some difficulties in understanding how a bulletin from the

7 23rd of September reports anything what happened on the 24th of September

8 but since the document is dated the 24th of September, I take it this is

9 not a dramatic issue.

10 Madam Registrar, that would be ...

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P563.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13 Ms. Edgerton, any other matter?

14 MS. EDGERTON: Not from me, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I take it your 92 bis witness is ready to be

16 cross-examined.

17 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into

19 the courtroom.

20 May I invite you, Mr. Stewart, to mention the relevant pages in

21 the transcripts of the testimony of Mr. Sejmenovic in the Stakic case

22 whenever you put questions to the witness.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may, before the witness enters.


25 MR. TIEGER: I would seek permission to ask a single clarifying

Page 10964

1 question or amplifying question that arises from the submitted materials

2 and if the Court grants me permission to do that, I would only ask whether

3 it wished me to do so before or after any reading of the summary of the

4 testimony.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, do you have any observation as to

6 whether or when?

7 MR. STEWART: Whether, Your Honour, I have no objection. Mr.

8 Tieger has indicated to me the very limited area and nature of his

9 question. When, I'm entirely in Your Honours' hands, but as far as the

10 Defence is concerned, now after the witness has made the declaration would

11 be as good as time as any.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Sejmenovic. I see that you have

14 the text of the solemn declaration in front of you which perhaps one

15 experienced witness is understandable. I'd like to tell you that you're

16 required to make this solemn declaration, that you will speak the truth,

17 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And may I invite you to do

18 so. Witness.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.

25 Mr. Sejmenovic, please be seated. Mr. Sejmenovic, you are what we

Page 10965

1 call a 92 bis witness which means that this Chamber has decided to admit

2 into evidence large portions of the testimony you've given in the case

3 against Mr. Stakic. That means that not all these matters will be -- you

4 will not be questioned about all these matters again. There is one or --

5 one issue that -- on which Mr. Tieger will examine you but that's more a

6 clarification, as far as I understand, and then the main reason of your

7 presence here is that the Defence is given an opportunity to cross-examine

8 you on the basis of your testimony given in the Stakic case.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed. One of the issues still

12 on our mind is that we have admitted into evidence, they have not been

13 assigned exhibit numbers yet. I take it that you tender then because

14 somewhere they have to appear in the evidentiary material. Until now,

15 it's just -- they are attachments to a filing and subject of a decision of

16 the Chamber.

17 So I'll ask Madam Registrar to -- would you rather have them in

18 one number and then perhaps A, B, C, D, for all the following dates.

19 Would that be a practical solution, Madam Registrar?

20 If a copy could be provided to Madam Registrar then she'll prepare

21 the exhibit numbers.

22 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examined by Mr. Tieger:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sejmenovic. I indicated to the Chamber that

Page 10966












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13 English transcripts.













Page 10967

1 --

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. -- that I wanted to ask one question and that concerned your

4 meeting with Mr. Kupresanin at the Omarska camp which is found beginning

5 at page 4804 of the Stakic transcript. You indicated in your testimony

6 that after Mr. Kupresanin came in and started talking to you, he proceeded

7 with some political arguments and political theories and you listened to

8 him.

9 I simply wanted to ask you whether you recall what Mr. Kupresanin

10 spoke about?

11 A. I do remember the substance of what he said. He talked about the

12 current situation, the war, and the events occurring at the time and at

13 one point, he said decidedly, that the International Community had given

14 the Serbs the role of executors of Muslims. This is the -- a Vatican

15 Comintern -- a conspiration. I believe that he even mentioned that the

16 conspiracy was even that of Franko -- Panzer -- a francophone one or

17 something to that effect, and he said that something had to be done.

18 Twice he asked about my opinion of these matters and of course I

19 dared not say anything on this subject because our relationship was not

20 that of partners. My life hang in the balance and depended on a single

21 wrong word that may be uttered.

22 He gave his political views and this conversation, or rather, this

23 monologue of his was interrupted by a telephone call for him.

24 After the telephone call, he no longer spoke to me. I was taken

25 out into the corridor and he -- and I was then taken away from the

Page 10968

1 premises that we were on.

2 Q. Thank you, sir.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that was my question. I would be

4 prepared to read the 92 bis summary at this point if the Court wished.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Sejmenovic, for the public to understand

6 what we are talking about at all, a summary has been made of your

7 testimony in the Stakic case and Mr. Tieger will now read that out.

8 There's no need to comment on it or to answer any questions on it. Please

9 proceed, Mr. Tieger.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 The witness is a Bosnian Muslim and was a member of the SDA party

12 who was elected in November 1990 as the representative from Prijedor to

13 the republic chamber of municipalities, one of the two chambers of the

14 Assembly.

15 The witness testified about events in 1991 and early 1992 leading

16 up to the conflict including increased propaganda, the arming of Serbs,

17 the SDS policy and implementation of regionalisation and the establishment

18 of parallel structures of authority in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in

19 Prijedor.

20 He testified about the takeover of power in Prijedor by the SDS on

21 the 30th of April, 1992 and about the subsequent terminations of non-Serbs

22 from employment, limitations on free movement of non-Serbs, about demands

23 by Serbian authorities for surrender of weapons, the threat to raze the

24 Muslim area of Kozarac if the demand was not met, and about Serb demands

25 for more weapons than the Muslims possessed.

Page 10969

1 The witness testified about Serb military forces in the area and

2 about Muslim efforts to organise a defence.

3 The witness testified about the two-day shelling of Kozarac during

4 which the area was devastated and many killed.

5 He testified about the subsequent detention of Muslims --

6 apprehension of Muslims, their confinement in camps, and the killings of

7 non-Serb political and civic leaders.

8 After the attack on Kozarac, the witness was in hiding for nearly

9 two months. During that time, as he testified, he observed and learned

10 about killings and rounding up of non-Serbs. The witness testified that

11 he surreptitiously entered Trnopolje camp in the hope of gaining access to

12 a departing convoy. He testified about conditions in Trnopolje camp

13 including the killing of six inmates.

14 He surrendered to authorities in Trnopolje and was taken to the

15 Prijedor police station where he was beaten and then to Omarska. He

16 testified about conditions in Omarska camp including interrogations and

17 beatings of himself and others and interviews of him by Serbian

18 journalists for propaganda purposes.

19 The witness testified that he was released from Omarska by Vojo

20 Kupresanin, president of the autonomous region of Krajina, upon the orders

21 of Radovan Karadzic. The witness testified that he understood that he was

22 released so he would join the Serb Assembly or to encourage Muslims to let

23 themselves be evacuated from municipal territories.

24 The witness testified about his presence at a gathering at the

25 Banja Luka municipal building at which he heard discussions about the

Page 10970

1 delegation of power to municipal authorities by Radovan Karadzic. On

2 October 7th, 1992, the witness was given permission to leave the territory

3 of Republika Srpska by Kupresanin, pursuant to a decision of the Republika

4 Srpska Presidency of the 2nd of October, 1992.

5 That completes the brief summary of the lengthy testimony. Thank

6 you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

8 Mr. Stewart, you may cross-examine the witness.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, the position is this, that I have,

10 since the Trial Chamber adjourned yesterday evening, I've continued my

11 review of the voluminous material in relation to this witness, not just in

12 the Stakic case, but of course he has given evidence in a number of other

13 cases as well, all those transcripts are not admitted under 92 bis in this

14 case. Your Honours had given the Defence leave to cross-examine in just

15 four specific areas.

16 Your Honour, I've considered those areas now in the light of that

17 further review and do not wish to pursue any of them in cross-examination

18 today.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have given you leave for the four areas. Is

20 there any other matter that you then want to cross-examine the witness on?

21 MR. STEWART: No, thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That means that there will be no cross-examination.

23 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I now better understand that you had no

25 concerns of whether we would finish today, Mr. Stewart.

Page 10971

1 MR. STEWART: That's exactly right, Your Honour. I thought it was

2 only reasonable to allow Ms. Edgerton to proceed.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I take it, then, when the Chamber

4 specifically asked you on what matters you requested for cross-examination

5 of the witness would focus or what you would like to ask him in

6 cross-examination, I do understand now that it's the comparison with other

7 sources rather than anything else that made you decide not to put any

8 questions to this witness.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's my judgement in the light of

10 everything, Your Honour.


12 MR. STEWART: That's the position I'm in. That's my position.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Sejmenovic, this comes as a surprise

14 for this Chamber that this Chamber allowed, first of all, the testimony in

15 evidence, and at the express wish of the Defence, asked you to be called

16 to be cross-examined, but now, after having studied all the material, the

17 Defence abstains from any further -- from any further cross-examination.

18 That means that only one question has been put to you, not by the

19 Defence, but by the Prosecution, and that your examination is concluded

20 already.

21 As you may notice, I'm a bit surprised as well. The Chamber is a

22 bit surprised as well but let's not guess into whether this was necessary

23 or not. It's for Defence counsel to carefully consider all the material

24 and then to decide whether or not, at this very moment, in your presence,

25 whether you should be cross-examined, yes or no. Since they have decided

Page 10972

1 not to do so ...

2 So I would like to thank you very much for coming for just one

3 question. It's for the first time in my experience here that the witness

4 appeared here and had to answer only one question.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I am at

6 the -- at Your Honours' disposal. If the need arises, I will answer

7 positively to any invitation you might send out for me.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You have been called for cross-examination, but I

9 just first see whether there's any questions to be put to you by one of my

10 colleague Judges.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have no questions for you either. So still,

13 your testimony in the Stakic case is available for this Chamber. So don't

14 think that the information you could have provided is lost. The

15 information is there and the Chamber, of course, will study that carefully

16 and to see whether it assists in making determinations we'll have to make.

17 So therefore, I'd like to thank you for this very short testimony,

18 Mr. Sejmenovic, and I wish you a safe trip home again and it's certain

19 that you will be in time for Easter at home.

20 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Sejmenovic out of the

21 courtroom.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we are back to the exhibits. Madam Registrar,

24 as far as I can see, we have eight transcripts, eight days, transcripts in

25 the Stakic case with portions highlighted of the 12th, the 13th, the 17th,

Page 10973

1 the 18th, the 19th, the 20th, and 24th of June, and the 1st of July, 2002.

2 MR. STEWART: I think there are nine days, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid I overlooked the 2nd of July.

4 Yes, Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The transcript dated 12 June 2002 is Prosecution

6 Exhibit P564. Transcript dated 13 June 2002, P564A. Transcript dated 17

7 June 2002, Exhibit number P564B. Transcript dated 18 June 2002, Exhibit

8 number P564C. Transcript dated 19 June 2002, Exhibit number P564D.

9 Transcript dated 20 June 2002, Exhibit number P564E. Transcript dated 24

10 June 2002, Exhibit number P564F. Transcript dated 01 July 2002, Exhibit

11 number P564G. And transcript dated 02 July 2002, Exhibit number P564H.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. The decision on

13 admission was already taken. The highlighted portions are in evidence

14 although the exhibits, of course, the full transcripts of those days in

15 court.

16 Is there any issue otherwise to be raised before we stop?

17 MR. TIEGER: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

19 MR. STEWART: Nor from the Defence, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn.

21 Madam Registrar, next week -- we have not been prepared of ...

22 We adjourn until next Tuesday at 9.00 in the morning in this same

23 courtroom, number two.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask? Sorry. Thank you. I had

25 forgotten that's a helpful reminder. Are we sitting, might I ask, are we

Page 10974

1 sitting in the morning throughout the week?

2 JUDGE ORIE: We have to consult the -- yes.

3 MR. STEWART: The specific reason for asking is Your Honour would

4 appreciate that arranging visits at the UNDU is not always absolutely

5 straightforward and that's why I asked. So thank you very much for the

6 information.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And if there's any -- well, usually the morning hours

8 are to be preferred, but if there was any need for a change, we'll first

9 consult with the parties before a decision will be taken.

10 MR. STEWART: That's much appreciated, Your Honour. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We now finally adjourn until next Tuesday, 9.00, same

12 courtroom.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.07 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of March,

15 2005, at 9.00 a.m.